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Will the right unite? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 13,223
edited 7:49AM in General
Will the right unite? – politicalbetting.com

Last month I wrote about how talk about electoral pacts would soon appear and today’s Sunday Telegraph has the story above and Mrs Badenoch’s strategy might not survive first contact with reality

Read the full story here

«13

Comments

  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,918
    Top 32 like England
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,197
    FPT
    viewcode said:

    Oh, I get it. It's a pun on "will all of England's Christmases come at once". Because Panama is an isthmus. And "isthmus" rhymes with "Christmas".

    :)

    Well done, PBers often fail to spot my subtle puns.
  • eekeek Posts: 34,256
    When it comes to stories like this you have to ask the question "Why now?"

    Granted Labour will have a new leader but Farage now has a question he can't answer so is avoiding all press interviews and Reform are finding it difficult to win elections. So why are people trying to push through an electoral pact 2 years before the next election when Reform may have completely imploded by the end.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,197
    eek said:

    When it comes to stories like this you have to ask the question "Why now?"

    Granted Labour will have a new leader but Farage now has a question he can't answer so is avoiding all press interviews and Reform are finding it difficult to win elections. So why are people trying to push through an electoral pact 2 years before the next election when Reform may have completely imploded by the end.

    Why now? Partially because of Restore.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 32,806
    edited 7:59AM
    eek said:

    When it comes to stories like this you have to ask the question "Why now?"

    Granted Labour will have a new leader but Farage now has a question he can't answer so is avoiding all press interviews and Reform are finding it difficult to win elections. So why are people trying to push through an electoral pact 2 years before the next election when Reform may have completely imploded by the end.

    To distract from the bother Nigel has got himself into?
    I find a hard left coalition with the LibDems amusing.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 35,491
    The Tories didn't need to make a deal with Reform in Aberdeen South. Reform lost in Gorton & Denton and Makerfield, but not because of Tory votes. I'm not sure a pact is needed.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 57,253

    FPT

    viewcode said:

    Oh, I get it. It's a pun on "will all of England's Christmases come at once". Because Panama is an isthmus. And "isthmus" rhymes with "Christmas".

    :)

    Well done, PBers often fail to spot my subtle puns.
    Is Die Hard an isthmus movie?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 51,133
    If we get the right and the left 'uniting' it will create a US style polarised dynamic with Ref/Con/Restore as the GOP and Lab/LD/Green/SNP/PC as the Dems. You'll have to pick a side if you want to fully engage with that. Energising, but divisive.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 13,565
    edited 8:19AM

    FPT

    viewcode said:

    Oh, I get it. It's a pun on "will all of England's Christmases come at once". Because Panama is an isthmus. And "isthmus" rhymes with "Christmas".

    :)

    Well done, PBers often fail to spot my subtle puns.
    Sorry I didn’t realise you did subtle puns?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 23,594
    So if we get into the last 16 it’s likely Mexico in their fortress. Then it be likely Brazil.

    So tell me again how this is a better route than finishing second?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 66,920

    FPT @Casino_Royale

    Dura_Ace said:

    A large part of the issue is that the English national psyche is buttressed by the highly visible trappings of military puissance rather than actual capability. Hence the Army owning thousands of horses, frigate counting as a national pastime and an unslakeable lust for pointy aircraft. That's the reason the public, on the whole and ably egged on by a few legacy media outlets, would prefer to have the Red Arrows than more F-35 instructors.

    Until that aspect and the MoD's well documented and discussed broad spectrum incapacity are addressed then we'll get what we alway get because we're doing what we've always done.

    The Red Arrows annual budget is £28m.

    That's less than 0.05% of the Defence budget:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1d4r5n9dzgo
    It’s the leftist equivalent of “tattoo removal on the NHS”: highly visible, hard to defend and utterly irrelevant.

    There does need to be a rethink about defence procurement - the desire for tailored products isn’t that helpful but the argument that the defence industry uses is that it creates future jobs and tax revenues from exports - it’s an argument that plays well with the treasury as allows them to offset the costs.

    Another issue is that a lot of military capabilities aren’t talked about. For example, Dragonfire has moved from a prototype to a naval production version in 10 years (expected first installation next year). I suspect the land based version has been available for some time, but not highlighted publicly.

    Thirdly it’s not just about kit. We need resilience - supply chain strengthening (for example) with chip manufacturing. But when we forced Nexperia (China) to sell Newport why did we let it go to a US buyer vs insisting on UK ownership? We didn’t care about the price that Nexperia achieved.

    Finally we need a lot more investment in the less glamorous side of the MoD - training, recruitment, repairs, servicing capabilities, etc. A lot of the MoD spending should be about having the capacity to scale up quickly when needed. I don’t care if a naval dockyard, for example, runs at 60% capacity - but on Treasury models that’s unbelievable inefficient. We need to find a way to value strategic resilience which is currently missing from the analysis.
    Excellent post. Agreed.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 137,297
    edited 8:26AM
    Kemi has rightly ruled out any electoral pact with Reform. Even if Labour do take a narrow lead after a Burnham bounce they will certainly not be heading for a landslide or even a clear majority and any pact with Reform may see a few Tories go LD and will turn off anti Reform tactical voters in Tory v Reform marginal seats. The likes of Jacob Rees Mogg want a Tory and Reform pact but Jacob is not yet even back as a Tory MP yet

    https://www.dailymail.com/news/article-15916521/Kemi-Farage-split-Makerfield-Burnham.html
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 66,920

    Sounds like the nutty right wing of the Tories are getting worried that Reform’s bloom is fading. Now would be wrong time to do a deal.

    And I’m not sure that a deal should be done anyway. It would retoxify the Tory brand and sure as shit would unite the left.

    The Tories need to courage of their convictions: sound money, disciplined fiscal policy, socially tolerant, controlled immigration. Focus on getting the the basics right of running the country.

    Yes, the trap to avoid there is still being serious about controlling immigration, which was the biggest flank the Tories left open.

    And is now costing them dearly.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,512

    Sounds like the nutty right wing of the Tories are getting worried that Reform’s bloom is fading. Now would be wrong time to do a deal.

    And I’m not sure that a deal should be done anyway. It would retoxify the Tory brand and sure as shit would unite the left.

    The Tories need to courage of their convictions: sound money, disciplined fiscal policy, socially tolerant, controlled immigration. Focus on getting the the basics right of running the country.

    Good morning

    The question may be coming from panicking reform supporters who must be really worried just how long Farage will remain in the party

    Kemi is right to reject all and any suggestions to unite the right and continue her progress in leading the conservatives into GE29 and ignore reform/restore
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,930

    FPT @Casino_Royale

    Dura_Ace said:

    A large part of the issue is that the English national psyche is buttressed by the highly visible trappings of military puissance rather than actual capability. Hence the Army owning thousands of horses, frigate counting as a national pastime and an unslakeable lust for pointy aircraft. That's the reason the public, on the whole and ably egged on by a few legacy media outlets, would prefer to have the Red Arrows than more F-35 instructors.

    Until that aspect and the MoD's well documented and discussed broad spectrum incapacity are addressed then we'll get what we alway get because we're doing what we've always done.

    The Red Arrows annual budget is £28m.

    That's less than 0.05% of the Defence budget:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1d4r5n9dzgo
    It’s the leftist equivalent of “tattoo removal on the NHS”: highly visible, hard to defend and utterly irrelevant.

    There does need to be a rethink about defence procurement - the desire for tailored products isn’t that helpful but the argument that the defence industry uses is that it creates future jobs and tax revenues from exports - it’s an argument that plays well with the treasury as allows them to offset the costs.

    Another issue is that a lot of military capabilities aren’t talked about. For example, Dragonfire has moved from a prototype to a naval production version in 10 years (expected first installation next year). I suspect the land based version has been available for some time, but not highlighted publicly.

    Thirdly it’s not just about kit. We need resilience - supply chain strengthening (for example) with chip manufacturing. But when we forced Nexperia (China) to sell Newport why did we let it go to a US buyer vs insisting on UK ownership? We didn’t care about the price that Nexperia achieved.

    Finally we need a lot more investment in the less glamorous side of the MoD - training, recruitment, repairs, servicing capabilities, etc. A lot of the MoD spending should be about having the capacity to scale up quickly when needed. I don’t care if a naval dockyard, for example, runs at 60% capacity - but on Treasury models that’s unbelievable inefficient. We need to find a way to value strategic resilience which is currently missing from the analysis.
    It’s not only chips. There are several key commodities we no longer make in the U.K. but import.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 25,673
    I love the idea of a hard left coalition including the LibDems.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 137,297
    dixiedean said:

    eek said:

    When it comes to stories like this you have to ask the question "Why now?"

    Granted Labour will have a new leader but Farage now has a question he can't answer so is avoiding all press interviews and Reform are finding it difficult to win elections. So why are people trying to push through an electoral pact 2 years before the next election when Reform may have completely imploded by the end.

    To distract from the bother Nigel has got himself into?
    I find a hard left coalition with the LibDems amusing.
    Especially as the LDs were in coalition with the Tories just over 10 years ago
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 137,297
    edited 8:30AM

    eek said:

    When it comes to stories like this you have to ask the question "Why now?"

    Granted Labour will have a new leader but Farage now has a question he can't answer so is avoiding all press interviews and Reform are finding it difficult to win elections. So why are people trying to push through an electoral pact 2 years before the next election when Reform may have completely imploded by the end.

    Why now? Partially because of Restore.
    The Tories want Restore to eat into Reform's vote anyway, as does Burnham and Labour.

    For the Tories losing the next general election to Burnham Labour would be disappointing but as long as they stay second and beat Reform they will live to fight another day. If however the Tories are beaten by Reform too and cease to be the main party of the right then that could be existential for the Tories unless we get PR and see the party go extinct or taken over by Reform within a decade unless swiftly reversed
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 46,674

    The Tories didn't need to make a deal with Reform in Aberdeen South. Reform lost in Gorton & Denton and Makerfield, but not because of Tory votes. I'm not sure a pact is needed.

    Reform will be toast long before the election , just another protest group for numpties. Biggest issue is that Labour and Tories are crap so only choice is who is the least crap.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,625
    Two Russian oil refineries burning this morning following visits by Ukrainian drones - Yaroslavl and Slavyansk-on-Kuban. Plus another fire at what's described as an "oil stabilisation and gas processing station" near the second of those refineries.

    The Americans quietly cancelled some sanctions on Russian businessmen and a couple of Turkish businesses involved in supplying the Russian military. Trump might have said a few friendly things about Ukraine, but he's still providing practical assistance to Russia.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 25,673
    Whether there is a pact or not, Labour needs to keep hammering away with the message that a vote for the Tories is a vote to put Farage in Number 10.

  • TazTaz Posts: 28,930

    I love the idea of a hard left coalition including the LibDems.

    Well as we saw in the prior thread with the removal of the candidate from Sutton and Cheam and the ensuing case they clearly are anti Christian. So that ticks a box.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,512

    Whether there is a pact or not, Labour needs to keep hammering away with the message that a vote for the Tories is a vote to put Farage in Number 10.

    Not sure Farage will be leading Reform into GE29
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 25,673
    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    When it comes to stories like this you have to ask the question "Why now?"

    Granted Labour will have a new leader but Farage now has a question he can't answer so is avoiding all press interviews and Reform are finding it difficult to win elections. So why are people trying to push through an electoral pact 2 years before the next election when Reform may have completely imploded by the end.

    Why now? Partially because of Restore.
    The Tories want Restore to eat into Reform's vote anyway, as does Burnham and Labour.

    For the Tories losing the next general election to Burnham Labour would be disappointing but as long as they stay second and beat Reform they will live to fight another day. If however the Tories are beaten by Reform too and cease to be the main party of the right then that could be existential for the Tories unless we get PR and see the party go extinct or taken over by Reform within a decade unless swiftly reversed
    I would very much like to see Reform as the official opposition after the next GE, with the Tories and LibDems scrapping it out for third.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 79,783

    FPT

    viewcode said:

    Oh, I get it. It's a pun on "will all of England's Christmases come at once". Because Panama is an isthmus. And "isthmus" rhymes with "Christmas".

    :)

    Well done, PBers often fail to spot my subtle puns.
    Sorry I didn’t realise you did subtle puns?
    As @TSE makes clear, he is as subtle as he is modest.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,171
    Today’s Russian refiniery on fire, this one is at Slavyansk-on-Kuban. No, me neither, but it’s about 40 miles East of Kerch.

    https://x.com/maria_drutska/status/2071105563153584145
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 8,336
    Trivia question, which I can't work out the answer to. When was the last time a back-bench MP (or Lord) was appointed Prime Minister? In Government if you like, or in general if you assume that LOTO and shadow ministers are front-bench posts
  • RattersRatters Posts: 2,064

    So if we get into the last 16 it’s likely Mexico in their fortress. Then it be likely Brazil.

    So tell me again how this is a better route than finishing second?

    Because Congo followed by Mexico is considerably easier than Portugal followed Spain?

    Yes our prospective quarter finals is tough if we get there. But that's offset by a potentially easier semi final relative to the other half of the draw.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,197

    Trivia question, which I can't work out the answer to. When was the last time a back-bench MP (or Lord) was appointed Prime Minister? In Government if you like, or in general if you assume that LOTO and shadow ministers are front-bench posts

    Boris Johnson in 2019.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 36,796

    Trivia question, which I can't work out the answer to. When was the last time a back-bench MP (or Lord) was appointed Prime Minister? In Government if you like, or in general if you assume that LOTO and shadow ministers are front-bench posts

    You must be suffering from Long Covid if you can't remember Long Covid sufferer Boris, who resigned from the Cabinet in order to challenger Theresa May.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,197

    Trivia question, which I can't work out the answer to. When was the last time a back-bench MP (or Lord) was appointed Prime Minister? In Government if you like, or in general if you assume that LOTO and shadow ministers are front-bench posts

    You must be suffering from Long Covid if you can't remember Long Covid sufferer Boris, who resigned from the Cabinet in order to challenger Theresa May.
    There was a gap of around a year between him resigning from the cabinet and becoming PM.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 36,796
    The government will repeal the Vagrancy Act tomorrow (Monday 29 June), bringing an end to nearly two centuries of legislation that has criminalised rough sleeping and begging.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/rough-sleeping-no-longer-a-crime-as-vagrancy-act-repealed

    Yet another policy announced outside parliament as Starmer's government continues its campaign to give the Speaker an aneurism.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,171
    Ratters said:

    So if we get into the last 16 it’s likely Mexico in their fortress. Then it be likely Brazil.

    So tell me again how this is a better route than finishing second?

    Because Congo followed by Mexico is considerably easier than Portugal followed Spain?

    Yes our prospective quarter finals is tough if we get there. But that's offset by a potentially easier semi final relative to the other half of the draw.
    By the time you’re in the WC quarter-finals there’s no easy matches. Congo’s clearly earlier than Portugual for the R32 match though.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,299

    FPT @Casino_Royale

    Dura_Ace said:

    A large part of the issue is that the English national psyche is buttressed by the highly visible trappings of military puissance rather than actual capability. Hence the Army owning thousands of horses, frigate counting as a national pastime and an unslakeable lust for pointy aircraft. That's the reason the public, on the whole and ably egged on by a few legacy media outlets, would prefer to have the Red Arrows than more F-35 instructors.

    Until that aspect and the MoD's well documented and discussed broad spectrum incapacity are addressed then we'll get what we alway get because we're doing what we've always done.

    The Red Arrows annual budget is £28m.

    That's less than 0.05% of the Defence budget:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1d4r5n9dzgo
    It’s the leftist equivalent of “tattoo removal on the NHS”: highly visible, hard to defend and utterly irrelevant.

    There does need to be a rethink about defence procurement - the desire for tailored products isn’t that helpful but the argument that the defence industry uses is that it creates future jobs and tax revenues from exports - it’s an argument that plays well with the treasury as allows them to offset the costs.

    Another issue is that a lot of military capabilities aren’t talked about. For example, Dragonfire has moved from a prototype to a naval production version in 10 years (expected first installation next year). I suspect the land based version has been available for some time, but not highlighted publicly.

    Thirdly it’s not just about kit. We need resilience - supply chain strengthening (for example) with chip manufacturing. But when we forced Nexperia (China) to sell Newport why did we let it go to a US buyer vs insisting on UK ownership? We didn’t care about the price that Nexperia achieved.

    Finally we need a lot more investment in the less glamorous side of the MoD - training, recruitment, repairs, servicing capabilities, etc. A lot of the MoD spending should be about having the capacity to scale up quickly when needed. I don’t care if a naval dockyard, for example, runs at 60% capacity - but on Treasury models that’s unbelievable inefficient. We need to find a way to value strategic resilience which is currently missing from the analysis.
    And cut the stuff we don't need at all, and probably never will.
    For example, Challenger.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 28,216
    kinabalu said:

    New US passports with Donald Trump's mug on them. Available by application - ie you have to actually want one.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3ewkdgw9ro

    Could this facilitate our border control efforts to keep undesirables out of the country?

    Indeed, we can just deport them under the Obscene Publications Act.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 79,783

    Trivia question, which I can't work out the answer to. When was the last time a back-bench MP (or Lord) was appointed Prime Minister? In Government if you like, or in general if you assume that LOTO and shadow ministers are front-bench posts

    You must be suffering from Long Covid if you can't remember Long Covid sufferer Boris, who resigned from the Cabinet in order to challenger Theresa May.
    There was a gap of around a year between him resigning from the cabinet and becoming PM.
    54 weeks, to be exact, although the general thrust of the comment is correct.

    However, the most recent example was Sunak.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,171
    FPT:

    A massive increase in spending on defence is necessary but not sufficient.

    The whole MoD is set up to fight the last war, and several floors of staff need to be cleared out of Whitehall.

    We need to stop throwing good money after bad on custom projects such as Ajax, instead buying off the shelf. We need to work with a variety of suppliers from different countries, including startups such as Anduril and several companies in Ukraine who are fighting the current war - not the big company who has a habit of offering well-paid non-jobs to MoD retirees.

    We need to prioritise making ammunition for current weapons rather than looking at the next big expensive boondoggle, get the Navy actually able to field more than two small ships at any one time, recruit and train tens of thousands of men and officers, address key bottlenecks such as flying school instructors and cybersecurity specialists.

    It’s been ignored for decades, probably since 1991, under governments of all colours, well now there’s a heightened threat and we’re not ready, and neither is most of Europe.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,208
    The right might unite when the time is right, right now there's enough fight to keep it out of sight but support is tight as is their plight.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,208

    Trivia question, which I can't work out the answer to. When was the last time a back-bench MP (or Lord) was appointed Prime Minister? In Government if you like, or in general if you assume that LOTO and shadow ministers are front-bench posts

    You must be suffering from Long Covid if you can't remember Long Covid sufferer Boris, who resigned from the Cabinet in order to challenger Theresa May.
    There was a gap of around a year between him resigning from the cabinet and becoming PM.
    What a bizarre year that was. As I like to note, May's government led in the polls for a long time despite being utterly paralyzed and unable to do, well, anything.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,299

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    I am utterly appalled at the ad-hominem I've read on here this morning directed at Radakin from last night by several posters who should know better.

    Utterly appalled.

    I'm amazed that anyone knows enough about him to direct ad hominems at him.
    Seems a fairly pragmatic guy, and you can't really blame a serviceman for advocating in favour of defence spending.

    His wishlist is unlikely to be fulfilled, though.

    The reality is that if we are to deliver any useful capabilities at all, we're going to have to make some very tough choices. Our current forces are utterly threadbare as we've tried to pretend for the last couple of decade that we can deliver a 4% of GDP capability on spending rather closer to 2%.

    That means either cutting some stuff completely, or paying a great deal more. Either option carries significant risks - not least of which is that any increases would be pissed away on useless stuff.
    They are utterly threadbare.

    I think this starts from people not wanting to pay any more, and working back from there.

    But the world has changed, and us putting our fingers in our ears is not a choice.
    They are threadbare despite being the 6th most expensive military in the world.

    No point in throwing good money after bad until there has been a thorough chucking out at the MoD and higher ranks. There has to be some accountability for the waste and profligacy.

    Do you think all other NATO countries (there are 31 of them my) that have agreed the 5% target by 2035 are saying "we shouldn't throw good money after bad" and dragging their feet or do you think that they are urgently getting on with it recognising that security threats have changed and extra investment in defence is urgently needed because they're acutely vulnerable?
    The vast majority of NATO members will never reach 5%, or anywhere near it.
    North and Eastern Europe countries excepted.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 129,197
    ydoethur said:

    Trivia question, which I can't work out the answer to. When was the last time a back-bench MP (or Lord) was appointed Prime Minister? In Government if you like, or in general if you assume that LOTO and shadow ministers are front-bench posts

    You must be suffering from Long Covid if you can't remember Long Covid sufferer Boris, who resigned from the Cabinet in order to challenger Theresa May.
    There was a gap of around a year between him resigning from the cabinet and becoming PM.
    54 weeks, to be exact, although the general thrust of the comment is correct.

    However, the most recent example was Sunak.
    Yes, i keep on repressing the Liz Truss interregnum.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,208
    My guess is the right unites in 2029/30 post the next GE - the Tories and Reform need to figure out who will be top and who will be bottom before a pact/merger can be worth agreeing, whereas at the moment Reform still think they'll win it all and the Tories have too many MPs over Reform to justify bending over as Reform (and Jacob Rees-Mogg) wish.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,208

    I love the idea of a hard left coalition including the LibDems.

    To the left they are hated for facilitating hard right Cameron, to the right they are hated for being hard left Labour bootlickers.

    Not that they are perfectly in the centre, but they have that 10% niche of not wanting to be either Tory or Labour that Tories and Labour cannot understand.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,145

    ydoethur said:

    Trivia question, which I can't work out the answer to. When was the last time a back-bench MP (or Lord) was appointed Prime Minister? In Government if you like, or in general if you assume that LOTO and shadow ministers are front-bench posts

    You must be suffering from Long Covid if you can't remember Long Covid sufferer Boris, who resigned from the Cabinet in order to challenger Theresa May.
    There was a gap of around a year between him resigning from the cabinet and becoming PM.
    54 weeks, to be exact, although the general thrust of the comment is correct.

    However, the most recent example was Sunak.
    Yes, i keep on repressing the Liz Truss interregnum.
    What's the weird trick that they don't want the public to know to achieve this?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,208

    ydoethur said:

    Trivia question, which I can't work out the answer to. When was the last time a back-bench MP (or Lord) was appointed Prime Minister? In Government if you like, or in general if you assume that LOTO and shadow ministers are front-bench posts

    You must be suffering from Long Covid if you can't remember Long Covid sufferer Boris, who resigned from the Cabinet in order to challenger Theresa May.
    There was a gap of around a year between him resigning from the cabinet and becoming PM.
    54 weeks, to be exact, although the general thrust of the comment is correct.

    However, the most recent example was Sunak.
    Yes, i keep on repressing the Liz Truss interregnum.
    We need to face our unpleasant history sometimes.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 79,783

    ydoethur said:

    Trivia question, which I can't work out the answer to. When was the last time a back-bench MP (or Lord) was appointed Prime Minister? In Government if you like, or in general if you assume that LOTO and shadow ministers are front-bench posts

    You must be suffering from Long Covid if you can't remember Long Covid sufferer Boris, who resigned from the Cabinet in order to challenger Theresa May.
    There was a gap of around a year between him resigning from the cabinet and becoming PM.
    54 weeks, to be exact, although the general thrust of the comment is correct.

    However, the most recent example was Sunak.
    Yes, i keep on repressing the Liz Truss interregnum.
    Lettuce all agree it should never have happened.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 3,287
    Radio 4 dogs in the office?
    (We had dogs when I was a kid)

    Seems pretty unacceptable given some people are allergic.
    My experience, brief trip to office over COVID, was a colleague arriving with his Labrador. It happily padded about the place and marked its territory on the corner of the meeting room.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 36,796
    Sandpit said:

    Ratters said:

    So if we get into the last 16 it’s likely Mexico in their fortress. Then it be likely Brazil.

    So tell me again how this is a better route than finishing second?

    Because Congo followed by Mexico is considerably easier than Portugal followed Spain?

    Yes our prospective quarter finals is tough if we get there. But that's offset by a potentially easier semi final relative to the other half of the draw.
    By the time you’re in the WC quarter-finals there’s no easy matches. Congo’s clearly earlier than Portugual for the R32 match though.
    Current World Cup betting has England joint-3rd best with Spain:-

    7/2 France
    4/1 Argentina

    7/1 England and Spain

    14/1 Portugal and Brazil
    16/1 Netherlands
    20/1 Germany

    33/1 bar
    https://www.oddschecker.com/football/world-cup/winner
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,208

    Sounds like the nutty right wing of the Tories are getting worried that Reform’s bloom is fading. Now would be wrong time to do a deal.

    And I’m not sure that a deal should be done anyway. It would retoxify the Tory brand and sure as shit would unite the left.

    The Tories need to courage of their convictions: sound money, disciplined fiscal policy, socially tolerant, controlled immigration. Focus on getting the the basics right of running the country.

    Yes, the trap to avoid there is still being serious about controlling immigration, which was the biggest flank the Tories left open.

    And is now costing them dearly.
    Failing on it did them no electoral harm for about 13 years, despite being constantly raised as an issue, so I'm not surprised they felt like rhetoric was sufficient to protect the flank.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 79,783
    There have of course been other examples of backbenchers catapulted to the top job, but most of them were either very technical or a long time ago. For example, Bonar Law in 1922, who had retired due to illness about a year before being summoned back in a crisis. Or David Lloyd George, who was officially out of cabinet for two days while Asquith was toppled and Bonar Law offered first refusal of the post. Gladstone in 1880 would be another one. Or William Pitt the Younger in 1783.

    But it's fairly rare.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 3,845

    Sounds like the nutty right wing of the Tories are getting worried that Reform’s bloom is fading. Now would be wrong time to do a deal.

    And I’m not sure that a deal should be done anyway. It would retoxify the Tory brand and sure as shit would unite the left.

    The Tories need to courage of their convictions: sound money, disciplined fiscal policy, socially tolerant, controlled immigration. Focus on getting the the basics right of running the country.

    Recent events have shown that there is nothing inevitable about Nigel's progression to Number 10. The Tories have staved off extinction, and Labour are busy reinventing themselves. And both mainstream parties will soon have confident characterful leaders who are much more tricky for Farage to contrast himself with than Starmer,

    While I'm not expecting a significant Reform decline anytime soon, it's pretty clear that tactical voting and unease about Farage's suitability as PM when push comes to shove at a general election, means his chances are now decidedly slim. The talk about him standing down (surely very unlikely) is indicative of this.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,299

    Sounds like the nutty right wing of the Tories are getting worried that Reform’s bloom is fading. Now would be wrong time to do a deal.

    And I’m not sure that a deal should be done anyway. It would retoxify the Tory brand and sure as shit would unite the left.

    The Tories need to courage of their convictions: sound money, disciplined fiscal policy, socially tolerant, controlled immigration. Focus on getting the the basics right of running the country.

    Good morning

    The question may be coming from panicking reform supporters who must be really worried just how long Farage will remain in the party

    Kemi is right to reject all and any suggestions to unite the right and continue her progress in leading the conservatives into GE29 and ignore reform/restore
    Did you not read TSE's point about the party funders, though, Big_G.
    If enough of them decide that's the way to get what they want, some sort of pact might be inevitable. Unless the Tories suddenly pick up another 10% in the polls, in that circumstance whatever Kemi wants might well be irrelevant.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 28,216

    Sandpit said:

    Ratters said:

    So if we get into the last 16 it’s likely Mexico in their fortress. Then it be likely Brazil.

    So tell me again how this is a better route than finishing second?

    Because Congo followed by Mexico is considerably easier than Portugal followed Spain?

    Yes our prospective quarter finals is tough if we get there. But that's offset by a potentially easier semi final relative to the other half of the draw.
    By the time you’re in the WC quarter-finals there’s no easy matches. Congo’s clearly earlier than Portugual for the R32 match though.
    Current World Cup betting has England joint-3rd best with Spain:-

    7/2 France
    4/1 Argentina

    7/1 England and Spain

    14/1 Portugal and Brazil
    16/1 Netherlands
    20/1 Germany

    33/1 bar
    https://www.oddschecker.com/football/world-cup/winner
    Spain have a nice draw, can ease themselves into it, build up Yamals fitness and not much stopping them to get to the semi final.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 23,145
    kle4 said:

    My guess is the right unites in 2029/30 post the next GE - the Tories and Reform need to figure out who will be top and who will be bottom before a pact/merger can be worth agreeing, whereas at the moment Reform still think they'll win it all and the Tories have too many MPs over Reform to justify bending over as Reform (and Jacob Rees-Mogg) wish.

    The other question is how much does Reform work without Nigel? By now, they probably have enough councillors, MPs and money that they can't really just vanish in a puff of smoke. But none of Jenrick, Tice, Yusuf etc have Farage's ability to inspire loyalty.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,208

    Sounds like the nutty right wing of the Tories are getting worried that Reform’s bloom is fading. Now would be wrong time to do a deal.

    And I’m not sure that a deal should be done anyway. It would retoxify the Tory brand and sure as shit would unite the left.

    The Tories need to courage of their convictions: sound money, disciplined fiscal policy, socially tolerant, controlled immigration. Focus on getting the the basics right of running the country.

    Recent events have shown that there is nothing inevitable about Nigel's progression to Number 10. The Tories have staved off extinction, and Labour are busy reinventing themselves. And both mainstream parties will soon have confident characterful leaders who are much more tricky for Farage to contrast himself with than Starmer,

    While I'm not expecting a significant Reform decline anytime soon, it's pretty clear that tactical voting and unease about Farage's suitability as PM when push comes to shove at a general election, means his chances are now decidedly slim. The talk about him standing down (surely very unlikely) is indicative of this.
    I give it 50/50 that the Tories give in and cut a deal/get ruined by FPTP, not least because many Tories obviously yearn for it, but it is not an inevitability and cutting a deal comes with risks of its own which don't tend to figure into the conversation on the right. The Tories are not exactly recovering in the way they'd like, but the long game is probably still the best bet - play for time, keep plugging away at Reform and hope for the lustre to fade.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 28,216

    kle4 said:

    My guess is the right unites in 2029/30 post the next GE - the Tories and Reform need to figure out who will be top and who will be bottom before a pact/merger can be worth agreeing, whereas at the moment Reform still think they'll win it all and the Tories have too many MPs over Reform to justify bending over as Reform (and Jacob Rees-Mogg) wish.

    The other question is how much does Reform work without Nigel? By now, they probably have enough councillors, MPs and money that they can't really just vanish in a puff of smoke. But none of Jenrick, Tice, Yusuf etc have Farage's ability to inspire loyalty.
    They don't agree on much either. A shared dislike of the governments of the last decade, especially on immigration, despite half of them being the government of the last decade. Beyond that, its a pretty random mix.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 90,299
    kinabalu said:

    New US passports with Donald Trump's mug on them. Available by application - ie you have to actually want one.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3ewkdgw9ro

    Could this facilitate our border control efforts to keep undesirables out of the country?

    Just instruct border force that they're FAKE.
    No serious country would ever issue something so ridiculous.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,208

    kle4 said:

    My guess is the right unites in 2029/30 post the next GE - the Tories and Reform need to figure out who will be top and who will be bottom before a pact/merger can be worth agreeing, whereas at the moment Reform still think they'll win it all and the Tories have too many MPs over Reform to justify bending over as Reform (and Jacob Rees-Mogg) wish.

    The other question is how much does Reform work without Nigel? By now, they probably have enough councillors, MPs and money that they can't really just vanish in a puff of smoke. But none of Jenrick, Tice, Yusuf etc have Farage's ability to inspire loyalty.
    Ego driven splits have always been a thing with the Nigel parties, but nothing fatal to the project. Without him as Leader would those ego splits increase or decrease?

    With the Jenricks etc now on board and in senior position Reform have committed to a 'We're the Tories, but done right this time' position, is that going to be sustainable if the Tories don't fade away and FPTP does not hammer them?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,546
    Good Morning one and all. Sudden arrival of cloud cover this morning and what feels like a dramatic drop in temperature.

    On topic, or at least on one of those raised so far, I can't see the Conservatives and Reform uniting. They might on occasion work together but there's too much bad blood at the top, and, I suggest, incompatible policies lower down. Climate change is an obvious one; Thatcher was an early accepter of the idea.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 8,336
    ydoethur said:

    Trivia question, which I can't work out the answer to. When was the last time a back-bench MP (or Lord) was appointed Prime Minister? In Government if you like, or in general if you assume that LOTO and shadow ministers are front-bench posts

    You must be suffering from Long Covid if you can't remember Long Covid sufferer Boris, who resigned from the Cabinet in order to challenger Theresa May.
    There was a gap of around a year between him resigning from the cabinet and becoming PM.
    54 weeks, to be exact, although the general thrust of the comment is correct.

    However, the most recent example was Sunak.
    Yes you're right I have forgotten those instances. Although both were "recently stood-down" cabinet ministers.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,837
    John Rentoul
    @JohnRentoul

    The Curious Case of Louise Haigh’s Sensible Tax Proposals: a thread..

    https://x.com/JohnRentoul/status/2071153890062426421
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 3,287

    Sandpit said:

    Ratters said:

    So if we get into the last 16 it’s likely Mexico in their fortress. Then it be likely Brazil.

    So tell me again how this is a better route than finishing second?

    Because Congo followed by Mexico is considerably easier than Portugal followed Spain?

    Yes our prospective quarter finals is tough if we get there. But that's offset by a potentially easier semi final relative to the other half of the draw.
    By the time you’re in the WC quarter-finals there’s no easy matches. Congo’s clearly earlier than Portugual for the R32 match though.
    Current World Cup betting has England joint-3rd best with Spain:-

    7/2 France
    4/1 Argentina

    7/1 England and Spain

    14/1 Portugal and Brazil
    16/1 Netherlands
    20/1 Germany

    33/1 bar
    https://www.oddschecker.com/football/world-cup/winner
    Spain have a nice draw, can ease themselves into it, build up Yamals fitness and not much stopping them to get to the semi final.
    England look too chaotic at the back.
    Am on Argentina at 10s so happy, my 900-1 last 16 prediction got scuppered by South Korea.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 8,336
    edited 9:19AM

    The government will repeal the Vagrancy Act tomorrow (Monday 29 June), bringing an end to nearly two centuries of legislation that has criminalised rough sleeping and begging.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/rough-sleeping-no-longer-a-crime-as-vagrancy-act-repealed

    Yet another policy announced outside parliament as Starmer's government continues its campaign to give the Speaker an aneurism.

    Surely repealing an act of parliament has to be done by Parliament? So the Speaker knows about it, so it is in the schedule. Or... another act of parliament has given the Government the authority to repeal it (by order in council I suppose) so it's purely an Executive action and Parliament has no right to be told in advance
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,171
    Photos of the Volgograd weapons plant, targeted by the Flamingos last week

    https://x.com/gerashchenko_en/status/2070955836311265294

    TL:DR, it’s totally destroyed. This is where they used to make Iskander launchers, artillery systems, and various missiles.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,837
    Sandpit said:

    Photos of the Volgograd weapons plant, targeted by the Flamingos last week

    https://x.com/gerashchenko_en/status/2070955836311265294

    TL:DR, it’s totally destroyed. This is where they used to make Iskander launchers, artillery systems, and various missiles.


    Yet another day where Putin holds all the cards. I just don't know how Ukraine can hold out much longer.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,625

    Sounds like the nutty right wing of the Tories are getting worried that Reform’s bloom is fading. Now would be wrong time to do a deal.

    And I’m not sure that a deal should be done anyway. It would retoxify the Tory brand and sure as shit would unite the left.

    The Tories need to courage of their convictions: sound money, disciplined fiscal policy, socially tolerant, controlled immigration. Focus on getting the the basics right of running the country.

    Recent events have shown that there is nothing inevitable about Nigel's progression to Number 10. The Tories have staved off extinction, and Labour are busy reinventing themselves. And both mainstream parties will soon have confident characterful leaders who are much more tricky for Farage to contrast himself with than Starmer,

    While I'm not expecting a significant Reform decline anytime soon, it's pretty clear that tactical voting and unease about Farage's suitability as PM when push comes to shove at a general election, means his chances are now decidedly slim. The talk about him standing down (surely very unlikely) is indicative of this.
    And yet, save one poll from polling newcomers Trajectory Partnership, it's been 15 months since any party other than Reform led in an opinion poll.

    While I applaud your optimism I think you're setting to much store by by-election results - where tactical voting is considerably easier - and Westminster gossip, than on the political fundamentals: Labour are unable to get to grips with the country's problems, the Tories are not forgiven for their period in government, and so Reform are the next cab on the rank.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,625

    Sandpit said:

    Photos of the Volgograd weapons plant, targeted by the Flamingos last week

    https://x.com/gerashchenko_en/status/2070955836311265294

    TL:DR, it’s totally destroyed. This is where they used to make Iskander launchers, artillery systems, and various missiles.


    Yet another day where Putin holds all the cards. I just don't know how Ukraine can hold out much longer.
    This playing card design is appropriate, I think.

    https://www.etsy.com/ie/listing/1672318358/pretty-in-pink-flamingo-playing-cards
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,208

    The government will repeal the Vagrancy Act tomorrow (Monday 29 June), bringing an end to nearly two centuries of legislation that has criminalised rough sleeping and begging.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/rough-sleeping-no-longer-a-crime-as-vagrancy-act-repealed

    Yet another policy announced outside parliament as Starmer's government continues its campaign to give the Speaker an aneurism.

    Surely repealing an act of parliament has to be done by Parliament? So the Speaker knows about it, so it is in the schedule. Or... another act of parliament has given the Government the authority to repeal it (by order in council I suppose) so it's purely an Executive action and Parliament has no right to be told in advance
    According to Google there are powers in the Crime and Policing Act passed a few months ago which allow for it, but would formally require a statutory instrument, but a followup query said it was actually the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 which allowed for it but was awaiting secretary of state action before it could commence.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 104,208

    Sounds like the nutty right wing of the Tories are getting worried that Reform’s bloom is fading. Now would be wrong time to do a deal.

    And I’m not sure that a deal should be done anyway. It would retoxify the Tory brand and sure as shit would unite the left.

    The Tories need to courage of their convictions: sound money, disciplined fiscal policy, socially tolerant, controlled immigration. Focus on getting the the basics right of running the country.

    Recent events have shown that there is nothing inevitable about Nigel's progression to Number 10. The Tories have staved off extinction, and Labour are busy reinventing themselves. And both mainstream parties will soon have confident characterful leaders who are much more tricky for Farage to contrast himself with than Starmer,

    While I'm not expecting a significant Reform decline anytime soon, it's pretty clear that tactical voting and unease about Farage's suitability as PM when push comes to shove at a general election, means his chances are now decidedly slim. The talk about him standing down (surely very unlikely) is indicative of this.
    And yet, save one poll from polling newcomers Trajectory Partnership, it's been 15 months since any party other than Reform led in an opinion poll.

    While I applaud your optimism I think you're setting to much store by by-election results - where tactical voting is considerably easier - and Westminster gossip, than on the political fundamentals: Labour are unable to get to grips with the country's problems, the Tories are not forgiven for their period in government, and so Reform are the next cab on the rank.
    Which is why I am a Reform optimist (about their chances that is). But they do grate with their tone in trying to act as though they've basically already won and are now the true opposition.

    Maybe, but the very fact they have been exceeding the big two shows the situation is more changeable that usual, making their primacy fragile as well in an uncertain time.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 28,216
    Dopermean said:

    Sandpit said:

    Ratters said:

    So if we get into the last 16 it’s likely Mexico in their fortress. Then it be likely Brazil.

    So tell me again how this is a better route than finishing second?

    Because Congo followed by Mexico is considerably easier than Portugal followed Spain?

    Yes our prospective quarter finals is tough if we get there. But that's offset by a potentially easier semi final relative to the other half of the draw.
    By the time you’re in the WC quarter-finals there’s no easy matches. Congo’s clearly earlier than Portugual for the R32 match though.
    Current World Cup betting has England joint-3rd best with Spain:-

    7/2 France
    4/1 Argentina

    7/1 England and Spain

    14/1 Portugal and Brazil
    16/1 Netherlands
    20/1 Germany

    33/1 bar
    https://www.oddschecker.com/football/world-cup/winner
    Spain have a nice draw, can ease themselves into it, build up Yamals fitness and not much stopping them to get to the semi final.
    England look too chaotic at the back.
    Am on Argentina at 10s so happy, my 900-1 last 16 prediction got scuppered by South Korea.
    Short on numbers now too. Not something I was expecting to write about a major tournament but if anything happens to Spence we are screwed.

    Playing away at altitude is tougher than people understand. Even things like the ball flies faster so all the passing and shooting is different. If we get past Mexico we will have done very well.
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,444

    The government will repeal the Vagrancy Act tomorrow (Monday 29 June), bringing an end to nearly two centuries of legislation that has criminalised rough sleeping and begging.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/rough-sleeping-no-longer-a-crime-as-vagrancy-act-repealed

    Yet another policy announced outside parliament as Starmer's government continues its campaign to give the Speaker an aneurism.

    Surely repealing an act of parliament has to be done by Parliament? So the Speaker knows about it, so it is in the schedule. Or... another act of parliament has given the Government the authority to repeal it (by order in council I suppose) so it's purely an Executive action and Parliament has no right to be told in advance
    It's been planned policy for over a year -- this BBC article is from June 2025: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czdyz848j0no . The mechanism, I think, is that the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 passed by the previous government has a section defining the repeal of the Vagrancy Act, but which didn't immediately come into force. (The idea was to pass some other replacement legislation and then trigger the commencement of the repeal section.) So a Statutory Instrument is enough to do this: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2026/690/made/data.html . "Section 81 (repeal of the Vagrancy Act 1824 etc) of the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 comes into force on 29th June 2026."

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 59,257
    No.

    Next.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,171
    Ukranian drones took out 500 Russian supply vehicles yesterday, as well as 1,250 soldiers and 75 military vehicles. They even found three tanks.

    https://x.com/jalle51/status/2071104654751007033
  • StarryStarry Posts: 223
    If Reform and Conservative get together then masses of Reform will go to Restore.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,837
    Aaron Rupar
    @atrupar

    after detailing the Trump family's corruption, Ossoff says "if you're involved in any of this, next year you'll be raising your right hand and swearing to tell the truth, the whole truth, and so help you God before Congress."

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/2070945958062379201
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,546
    edited 9:48AM
    kle4 said:

    Sounds like the nutty right wing of the Tories are getting worried that Reform’s bloom is fading. Now would be wrong time to do a deal.

    And I’m not sure that a deal should be done anyway. It would retoxify the Tory brand and sure as shit would unite the left.

    The Tories need to courage of their convictions: sound money, disciplined fiscal policy, socially tolerant, controlled immigration. Focus on getting the the basics right of running the country.

    Recent events have shown that there is nothing inevitable about Nigel's progression to Number 10. The Tories have staved off extinction, and Labour are busy reinventing themselves. And both mainstream parties will soon have confident characterful leaders who are much more tricky for Farage to contrast himself with than Starmer,

    While I'm not expecting a significant Reform decline anytime soon, it's pretty clear that tactical voting and unease about Farage's suitability as PM when push comes to shove at a general election, means his chances are now decidedly slim. The talk about him standing down (surely very unlikely) is indicative of this.
    And yet, save one poll from polling newcomers Trajectory Partnership, it's been 15 months since any party other than Reform led in an opinion poll.

    While I applaud your optimism I think you're setting to much store by by-election results - where tactical voting is considerably easier - and Westminster gossip, than on the political fundamentals: Labour are unable to get to grips with the country's problems, the Tories are not forgiven for their period in government, and so Reform are the next cab on the rank.
    Which is why I am a Reform optimist (about their chances that is). But they do grate with their tone in trying to act as though they've basically already won and are now the true opposition.

    Maybe, but the very fact they have been exceeding the big two shows the situation is more changeable that usual, making their primacy fragile as well in an uncertain time.
    There was a piece I read recently (sadly can't find it now) about Reform in the Senedd being all over the place, with members voting in the wrong place. Might just be 'early days', of course; most of the members of all parties are new to the place.


    Late edit; silly me, momentary old age confusion: it was in the Guardian (so it must be true!)
    "Reform UK makes dramatic first impression in Senedd opposition role
    With more than a third of Welsh parliament seats, Reform MSs have caused tears and walkouts – and voted against their own party"
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,837
    Observer reporting that David Miliband is being seriously considered for Foreign Office.
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,930
    pm215 said:

    The government will repeal the Vagrancy Act tomorrow (Monday 29 June), bringing an end to nearly two centuries of legislation that has criminalised rough sleeping and begging.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/rough-sleeping-no-longer-a-crime-as-vagrancy-act-repealed

    Yet another policy announced outside parliament as Starmer's government continues its campaign to give the Speaker an aneurism.

    Surely repealing an act of parliament has to be done by Parliament? So the Speaker knows about it, so it is in the schedule. Or... another act of parliament has given the Government the authority to repeal it (by order in council I suppose) so it's purely an Executive action and Parliament has no right to be told in advance
    It's been planned policy for over a year -- this BBC article is from June 2025: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czdyz848j0no . The mechanism, I think, is that the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 passed by the previous government has a section defining the repeal of the Vagrancy Act, but which didn't immediately come into force. (The idea was to pass some other replacement legislation and then trigger the commencement of the repeal section.) So a Statutory Instrument is enough to do this: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2026/690/made/data.html . "Section 81 (repeal of the Vagrancy Act 1824 etc) of the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 comes into force on 29th June 2026."

    Coming soon to major cities.

    Pop up tent cities that will become semi permanent as Plod won’t be able to move them on, unless the local council can take action.

    😂😂😂😂
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 15,664

    Dopermean said:

    Sandpit said:

    Ratters said:

    So if we get into the last 16 it’s likely Mexico in their fortress. Then it be likely Brazil.

    So tell me again how this is a better route than finishing second?

    Because Congo followed by Mexico is considerably easier than Portugal followed Spain?

    Yes our prospective quarter finals is tough if we get there. But that's offset by a potentially easier semi final relative to the other half of the draw.
    By the time you’re in the WC quarter-finals there’s no easy matches. Congo’s clearly earlier than Portugual for the R32 match though.
    Current World Cup betting has England joint-3rd best with Spain:-

    7/2 France
    4/1 Argentina

    7/1 England and Spain

    14/1 Portugal and Brazil
    16/1 Netherlands
    20/1 Germany

    33/1 bar
    https://www.oddschecker.com/football/world-cup/winner
    Spain have a nice draw, can ease themselves into it, build up Yamals fitness and not much stopping them to get to the semi final.
    England look too chaotic at the back.
    Am on Argentina at 10s so happy, my 900-1 last 16 prediction got scuppered by South Korea.
    Short on numbers now too. Not something I was expecting to write about a major tournament but if anything happens to Spence we are screwed.

    Playing away at altitude is tougher than people understand. Even things like the ball flies faster so all the passing and shooting is different. If we get past Mexico we will have done very well.
    Am on Argentina too. I was surprised how generous the odds were up until today when they have suddenly dropped to a more realistic 4/1. They have a very easy route through untl they come up against England or Mexico. I think the latter is more likely. England are a lay. They're a decent side but with obvious flaws and playing at altitude against the home Nation is likely to be too much for them.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,861

    Sandpit said:

    Ratters said:

    So if we get into the last 16 it’s likely Mexico in their fortress. Then it be likely Brazil.

    So tell me again how this is a better route than finishing second?

    Because Congo followed by Mexico is considerably easier than Portugal followed Spain?

    Yes our prospective quarter finals is tough if we get there. But that's offset by a potentially easier semi final relative to the other half of the draw.
    By the time you’re in the WC quarter-finals there’s no easy matches. Congo’s clearly earlier than Portugual for the R32 match though.
    Current World Cup betting has England joint-3rd best with Spain:-

    7/2 France
    4/1 Argentina

    7/1 England and Spain

    14/1 Portugal and Brazil
    16/1 Netherlands
    20/1 Germany

    33/1 bar
    https://www.oddschecker.com/football/world-cup/winner
    Spain have a nice draw, can ease themselves into it, build up Yamals fitness and not much stopping them to get to the semi final.
    I think the value there lies with Brazil. Much less flair than previous sides but they have a good spine: a fine goalkeeper, the two best centrebacks and a world-class striker. Japan is a tricky fixture, but I fancy them to grind out results under Ancellotti.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,512
    Nigelb said:

    Sounds like the nutty right wing of the Tories are getting worried that Reform’s bloom is fading. Now would be wrong time to do a deal.

    And I’m not sure that a deal should be done anyway. It would retoxify the Tory brand and sure as shit would unite the left.

    The Tories need to courage of their convictions: sound money, disciplined fiscal policy, socially tolerant, controlled immigration. Focus on getting the the basics right of running the country.

    Good morning

    The question may be coming from panicking reform supporters who must be really worried just how long Farage will remain in the party

    Kemi is right to reject all and any suggestions to unite the right and continue her progress in leading the conservatives into GE29 and ignore reform/restore
    Did you not read TSE's point about the party funders, though, Big_G.
    If enough of them decide that's the way to get what they want, some sort of pact might be inevitable. Unless the Tories suddenly pick up another 10% in the polls, in that circumstance whatever Kemi wants might well be irrelevant.
    Kemi has attracted over £6,063,7111 million in Q1 to Farage £9,936.393

    By contrast labour attracted £4,102,856


  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 10,188
    kle4 said:

    I love the idea of a hard left coalition including the LibDems.

    To the left they are hated for facilitating hard right Cameron, to the right they are hated for being hard left Labour bootlickers.

    Not that they are perfectly in the centre, but they have that 10% niche of not wanting to be either Tory or Labour that Tories and Labour cannot understand.
    The LibDems are a coalition of liberals (centre right emphasis on freedom of individuals and markets) and social democrats (emphasis on social justice and mutual responsibility).

    The LibDems, (formerly Social and Liberal Democrats) are a merger of two parties, Liberals and SDP.

    The liberals, often called orange bookers after an orange book financed by Paul Marshall, were totally dominant under Clegg in the coalition government of 2010. But not any more. I think it is now fairly balanced.

    There are plenty of Red Libdems (I'm one) and Blue LibDems. But neither are fighting internally for dominance, unlike within the Tory or Labour parties. Our two sets of values are complementary and focused on getting good outcomes for local people.

    We should be popular ....
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,546

    Nigelb said:

    Sounds like the nutty right wing of the Tories are getting worried that Reform’s bloom is fading. Now would be wrong time to do a deal.

    And I’m not sure that a deal should be done anyway. It would retoxify the Tory brand and sure as shit would unite the left.

    The Tories need to courage of their convictions: sound money, disciplined fiscal policy, socially tolerant, controlled immigration. Focus on getting the the basics right of running the country.

    Good morning

    The question may be coming from panicking reform supporters who must be really worried just how long Farage will remain in the party

    Kemi is right to reject all and any suggestions to unite the right and continue her progress in leading the conservatives into GE29 and ignore reform/restore
    Did you not read TSE's point about the party funders, though, Big_G.
    If enough of them decide that's the way to get what they want, some sort of pact might be inevitable. Unless the Tories suddenly pick up another 10% in the polls, in that circumstance whatever Kemi wants might well be irrelevant.
    Kemi has attracted over £6,063,7111 million in Q1 to Farage £9,936.393

    By contrast labour attracted £4,102,856


    And how much is Farage going to have to return because it breaks the rules?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 79,783
    If Milibandwagon Major came back as FS, I think that would absolutely smash the record for longest gap between spells as FS - currently George Canning, 12 years 11 months.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 79,783
    edited 9:57AM
    kle4 said:
    That would be wonderful, if true. The rest of them are a sectarian rag bag of nomarks Northern Ireland would be considerably better off without.

    Sadly I suspect a formatting issue.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 28,216

    Sandpit said:

    Ratters said:

    So if we get into the last 16 it’s likely Mexico in their fortress. Then it be likely Brazil.

    So tell me again how this is a better route than finishing second?

    Because Congo followed by Mexico is considerably easier than Portugal followed Spain?

    Yes our prospective quarter finals is tough if we get there. But that's offset by a potentially easier semi final relative to the other half of the draw.
    By the time you’re in the WC quarter-finals there’s no easy matches. Congo’s clearly earlier than Portugual for the R32 match though.
    Current World Cup betting has England joint-3rd best with Spain:-

    7/2 France
    4/1 Argentina

    7/1 England and Spain

    14/1 Portugal and Brazil
    16/1 Netherlands
    20/1 Germany

    33/1 bar
    https://www.oddschecker.com/football/world-cup/winner
    Spain have a nice draw, can ease themselves into it, build up Yamals fitness and not much stopping them to get to the semi final.
    I think the value there lies with Brazil. Much less flair than previous sides but they have a good spine: a fine goalkeeper, the two best centrebacks and a world-class striker. Japan is a tricky fixture, but I fancy them to grind out results under Ancellotti.
    No easy games for them throughout, and knock outs are a bit of a lottery, so with the extra round not sure.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 59,257
    Sandpit said:

    FPT:

    A massive increase in spending on defence is necessary but not sufficient.

    The whole MoD is set up to fight the last war, and several floors of staff need to be cleared out of Whitehall.

    We need to stop throwing good money after bad on custom projects such as Ajax, instead buying off the shelf. We need to work with a variety of suppliers from different countries, including startups such as Anduril and several companies in Ukraine who are fighting the current war - not the big company who has a habit of offering well-paid non-jobs to MoD retirees.

    We need to prioritise making ammunition for current weapons rather than looking at the next big expensive boondoggle, get the Navy actually able to field more than two small ships at any one time, recruit and train tens of thousands of men and officers, address key bottlenecks such as flying school instructors and cybersecurity specialists.

    It’s been ignored for decades, probably since 1991, under governments of all colours, well now there’s a heightened threat and we’re not ready, and neither is most of Europe.

    The question is who are we defending ourselves against.

    Russia are losing the war against Ukraine. They are likely to have a change of leadership by the end of the year. Their conventional forces, tanks, artillery, ships, aircraft have all been destroyed. They frankly couldn't take on Poland, let alone get near to us. They do indulge in terrorism and threaten things such as sub sea cables. Whether the post Putin regime is likely to continue this is hard to guess at this stage but the smart thing is to assume yes.

    Ukraine is likely to develop into a serious military power. Their drones are several generations ahead of competitors already and accelerating under the heat of war. But even if things cool between us it is hard to see how they become a threat to the UK.

    The US is being massively weakened by the incompetence of Trump but it will remain a major force focused mainly on the Pacific and China. It is not obvious to me how we could or should play any part in those tensions.

    NATO has become a meaningless and pointless bureaucracy without a purpose. It is time to replace it with something meaningful, something that will not include the US. What we need to do is shape that new entity and work out what our role is going to be within it. That will determine where the MOD should waste their next tranche of cash.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 28,216

    Sandpit said:

    Ratters said:

    So if we get into the last 16 it’s likely Mexico in their fortress. Then it be likely Brazil.

    So tell me again how this is a better route than finishing second?

    Because Congo followed by Mexico is considerably easier than Portugal followed Spain?

    Yes our prospective quarter finals is tough if we get there. But that's offset by a potentially easier semi final relative to the other half of the draw.
    By the time you’re in the WC quarter-finals there’s no easy matches. Congo’s clearly earlier than Portugual for the R32 match though.
    Current World Cup betting has England joint-3rd best with Spain:-

    7/2 France
    4/1 Argentina

    7/1 England and Spain

    14/1 Portugal and Brazil
    16/1 Netherlands
    20/1 Germany

    33/1 bar
    https://www.oddschecker.com/football/world-cup/winner
    The notion that England stand a better chance than the four countries below them on that list is laughable. English punters betting with their hearts always makes England's odds tighter than they ought to be.
    You do realise that the odds are set worldwide with the dominant bettors by far Chinese?
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 9,435

    Nigelb said:

    Sounds like the nutty right wing of the Tories are getting worried that Reform’s bloom is fading. Now would be wrong time to do a deal.

    And I’m not sure that a deal should be done anyway. It would retoxify the Tory brand and sure as shit would unite the left.

    The Tories need to courage of their convictions: sound money, disciplined fiscal policy, socially tolerant, controlled immigration. Focus on getting the the basics right of running the country.

    Good morning

    The question may be coming from panicking reform supporters who must be really worried just how long Farage will remain in the party

    Kemi is right to reject all and any suggestions to unite the right and continue her progress in leading the conservatives into GE29 and ignore reform/restore
    Did you not read TSE's point about the party funders, though, Big_G.
    If enough of them decide that's the way to get what they want, some sort of pact might be inevitable. Unless the Tories suddenly pick up another 10% in the polls, in that circumstance whatever Kemi wants might well be irrelevant.
    Kemi has attracted over £6,063,7111 million in Q1 to Farage £9,936.393

    By contrast labour attracted £4,102,856


    Deduct public funds. Labour and Tories roughly equal on £4m in actual donations.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,512

    Sandpit said:

    Ratters said:

    So if we get into the last 16 it’s likely Mexico in their fortress. Then it be likely Brazil.

    So tell me again how this is a better route than finishing second?

    Because Congo followed by Mexico is considerably easier than Portugal followed Spain?

    Yes our prospective quarter finals is tough if we get there. But that's offset by a potentially easier semi final relative to the other half of the draw.
    By the time you’re in the WC quarter-finals there’s no easy matches. Congo’s clearly earlier than Portugual for the R32 match though.
    Current World Cup betting has England joint-3rd best with Spain:-

    7/2 France
    4/1 Argentina

    7/1 England and Spain

    14/1 Portugal and Brazil
    16/1 Netherlands
    20/1 Germany

    33/1 bar
    https://www.oddschecker.com/football/world-cup/winner
    The notion that England stand a better chance than the four countries below them on that list is laughable. English punters betting with their hearts always makes England's odds tighter than they ought to be.
    To be honest I struggle seeing England beating any of those in that list
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 62,171

    Dopermean said:

    Sandpit said:

    Ratters said:

    So if we get into the last 16 it’s likely Mexico in their fortress. Then it be likely Brazil.

    So tell me again how this is a better route than finishing second?

    Because Congo followed by Mexico is considerably easier than Portugal followed Spain?

    Yes our prospective quarter finals is tough if we get there. But that's offset by a potentially easier semi final relative to the other half of the draw.
    By the time you’re in the WC quarter-finals there’s no easy matches. Congo’s clearly earlier than Portugual for the R32 match though.
    Current World Cup betting has England joint-3rd best with Spain:-

    7/2 France
    4/1 Argentina

    7/1 England and Spain

    14/1 Portugal and Brazil
    16/1 Netherlands
    20/1 Germany

    33/1 bar
    https://www.oddschecker.com/football/world-cup/winner
    Spain have a nice draw, can ease themselves into it, build up Yamals fitness and not much stopping them to get to the semi final.
    England look too chaotic at the back.
    Am on Argentina at 10s so happy, my 900-1 last 16 prediction got scuppered by South Korea.
    Short on numbers now too. Not something I was expecting to write about a major tournament but if anything happens to Spence we are screwed.

    Playing away at altitude is tougher than people understand. Even things like the ball flies faster so all the passing and shooting is different. If we get past Mexico we will have done very well.
    Am on Argentina too. I was surprised how generous the odds were up until today when they have suddenly dropped to a more realistic 4/1. They have a very easy route through untl they come up against England or Mexico. I think the latter is more likely. England are a lay. They're a decent side but with obvious flaws and playing at altitude against the home Nation is likely to be too much for them.
    If England win the next match, they need to get themselves to Mexico City as soon as possible to aclimatise. It’s 7,500’ high there, very thin air.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,861

    Sandpit said:

    Ratters said:

    So if we get into the last 16 it’s likely Mexico in their fortress. Then it be likely Brazil.

    So tell me again how this is a better route than finishing second?

    Because Congo followed by Mexico is considerably easier than Portugal followed Spain?

    Yes our prospective quarter finals is tough if we get there. But that's offset by a potentially easier semi final relative to the other half of the draw.
    By the time you’re in the WC quarter-finals there’s no easy matches. Congo’s clearly earlier than Portugual for the R32 match though.
    Current World Cup betting has England joint-3rd best with Spain:-

    7/2 France
    4/1 Argentina

    7/1 England and Spain

    14/1 Portugal and Brazil
    16/1 Netherlands
    20/1 Germany

    33/1 bar
    https://www.oddschecker.com/football/world-cup/winner
    Spain have a nice draw, can ease themselves into it, build up Yamals fitness and not much stopping them to get to the semi final.
    I think the value there lies with Brazil. Much less flair than previous sides but they have a good spine: a fine goalkeeper, the two best centrebacks and a world-class striker. Japan is a tricky fixture, but I fancy them to grind out results under Ancellotti.
    No easy games for them throughout, and knock outs are a bit of a lottery, so with the extra round not sure.
    Yes, indeed and France are rightly favourites, but 14/1 for Brazil looks under-priced to my eyes.
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