This is the polling Andy Burnham has to change – politicalbetting.com

System · 1:42PM

This is the polling Andy Burnham has to change – politicalbetting.com

Both YouGov and Ipsos have published polling which shows Andy Burnham’s ratings falling in the last month, which is worrying considering he hasn’t become Prime Minister, although I would add the caveat he’s still the most popular (technically the least unliked) GB wide politician.

Read the full story here

BatteryCorrectHorse · 1:43PM

If Burnham is still popular with the 2024 Labour voters then it implies Labour can win again. Because if they get 30% or above they’ll win a lot of seats.

bondegezou · 1:45PM

LibDem and Your Party are the most popular parties. Ed Davey as PM and Zarah Sultana as DPM?

Sweeney74 · 1:50PM

Looks like political opinion is dominated by what/who people hate the most rather than a groundswell of favourability for any single party.

BatteryCorrectHorse · 1:51PM

Will Burnham somehow end up even less popular than Sir Keir?

It seems doubtful as he seems to have true fans, a bit like Johnson.

LostPassword · 1:51PM

bondegezou said:
LibDem and Your Party are the most popular parties. Ed Davey as PM and Zarah Sultana as DPM?

Reform and the Greens are the most popular parties. The Lib Dems and Your Party are the least unpopular parties.

The large value of don't know for the Lib Dems is quite remarkable. Continuing hangover from the Coalition, or a consequence of Farage starving all the other opposition parties of attention?

Nigelb · 1:52PM

Pulpstar said:

Nigelb said:

Nigelb said:
Dan Jarvis has taken a hospital pass by accepting the job without the precondition of more money.
And a large part of the "increase"the MoD is being allowed is smoke and mirrors financing.
And the MoD is proposing to cut useful stuff to preserve obsolescent stuff like the Challenger upgrade.

Dan Jarvis ‘will make big cuts’ unless money appears

https://www.thetimes.com/article/94a84928-736c-4ebf-b488-df472f0e72e0?shareToken=cb9823dac10c1e7b6de48c0104a0fa9f
..Sir Keir Starmer’s offer of an extra £13.5 billion in defence spending over four years, made to Jarvis’s predecessor John Healey last week, would have meant that the ministry’s existing equipment programme was unaffordable and the strategic defence review unachievable, a source familiar with those discussions said.
Defence officials working to make the numbers add up last week proposed delaying new investments in drones and artificial intelligence, cancelling reserve days and cancelling exercises, it can be revealed. Such cuts — to be outlined in the long-awaited defence investment plan — would have made the armed forces less prepared for conflict and ill-equipped to fight with the likes of Russia..

..Of the £13.5 billion offered to Healey before he resigned on Thursday, the Times understands that £3.5 billion would have been made up by “changing contingency levels with MoD budgets”...

..Also included in the £3.5 billion was the Treasury “taking on the cost of things the MoD was never going to pay for anyway”, a second source added.
“On a huge budget, a tweak to the accepted risk levels over several years will free up lots of money. A classic Treasury trick,” said John Foreman, former defence attaché to Moscow who previously worked on equipment acquisition in the Ministry of Defence..

And the settlement provides nothing at all towards funding the necessary equipment for outrapid response brigade for NATO:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/britain-bolsters-natos-eastern-flank-with-new-pact-with-estonia-and-new-cooperation-on-missile-defence

Let alone new programs like GCAP.
One of the programs Carns wants to cut.
(He is right.)

NEW: The Army’s new Challenger 3 tank is facing delays due to engineering problems.

Some suppliers have been told to halt work while the issues are resolved.

But sources say it could cause a 2yr delay. IOC is supposed to be in 2027. ..
https://x.com/mattotele/status/2066777791207518267
Could we not just buy a bunch of Leopard 2A7s from the Germans for our tanks ?

What use does the UK have for main battle tanks ?

Even if we could properly fund the "rapid reaction" 4th brigade to contribute to Europe's defence, we'd be far better spending the money on artillery and IFVs.

At the moment we're not properly funding any single component of our armed forces, and it's getting worse, not better.
Unless someone finds another few tens of billions, we need to make some pretty ruthless choices.
Binning our MBTs is one of the easy ones.

Battlebus · 1:52PM

Who, apart from a narcissist, would take on the role of sorting out the mess of high debt, high interest charges, declining and aging population and slow growth. Burnham hasn't explained how he would change this,. Just that he's not SKS.

Idiocy of the highest order.

IanB2 · 1:52PM

He’s all good, until his first f*** up.

Sunil_Prasannan · 1:53PM

Taz said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Taz said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Taz said:

eek said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Foss said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

turbotubbs said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:
All trains should be retrofitted with RF-passing “honeycomb” glass like they have on trains in Germany.

This would improve coverage on mainline trains for millions of people overnight.
Implausible. How many use the trains daily?
About 4.7 million people every day. (1.73 billion train journeys a year divided by 365 days)
That's the upper bound, assuming they take a single point to point journey per day. Most will return so you're probably looking at around 2.7-ish million as a more realistic figure.
So millions will benefit. Get on with it.
No they won't - remember it would make no difference to any journey I've made.

So that rules out the WCML, ECML, Lizzie Line (it even works in the tunnels) and Transpennine Express..

You really have a real obsession with mobile phones - heck you make some trainspotters I know look normal and unobsessive.
If they’re going to do it it would be better to do it as part of a periodic overhaul program rather than a standalone project.

It would also take years to do. You would need to keep trains in service at the same time as the project runs.

We’d also have to test and validate the new windows to ensure they can be used. Which can be a pain in the arse in the train world. I’ve still got the scars from District Line upgrade.

We aren’t exactly overburdened with companies capable of undertaking a major overhaul project either.
Yes on every train upgrade project, add new glass or repeaters. Do it iteratively. Fine.

But people here will argue against it even in principle. We see it day after day here.

I’ve proposed many times here things that can be done as other stuff is, e.g. a station gets upgraded, always add dedicated infrastructure.

But there is no joined up thinking. The BML project is brilliant but why only that line? Why not every line over time? It is a standardised thing with very few vendors.

The UK just does it so badly.
So is the glass approved for use on rolling stock in the U.K. ?

Has it been tested and validated to see how it behaves to our standards in a crash, for example ?
They won’t have even got that far because they’ll have decided it’s too expensive to do.

It’s been certified for use on German trains.

As I said, there can be other things. Build more masts. But that also was opposed here.
Being approved for German rolling stock is only relevant if our standards are aligned.

If it is too expensive to be it.

Class 745, 755, 756 (Greater Anglia), Class 555 (Tyne & Wear), Class 777 (Merseyrail), Glasgow Subway new stock, Class 231 (Wales) all built in Switzerland.

Class 398 (Wales), Class 399 (Sheffield Supertram) built in Spain.

Class 195, 331 (Northern), Class 397 (Trans-Pennine), mostly built in Spain.

Class 185 (Transpennine) built in Germany

Class 350 (LNWR) built in Austria, Czechia, Poland, and Germany

Class 360 (Luton Express) built in Austria and Germany

Class 380 (Scotrail) built in Germany

Class 444 (Southwest) built in Austria

Class 450 (Southwest) built in Austria and Germany

Class 700 (Thameslink, Grt Northern) and Class 717 (Grt Northern) built in Germany

Class 707 (Southeastern) Built in Germany

Nigelb · 1:55PM

Muslims make up around 1.5% of the Texas electorate.

We need to be clear about what is happening in this photo.

Rick Scarborough, former Southern Baptist pastor, got on stage at the Texas Republican Convention and told state DELEGATE Mohamed Hussein to convert to Christianity or leave the country. He was so upset that he cried. It was then and only then that Rick felt guilty, so he sat down and pretended to pray for him.

The only evil we need to expel from this state are the people who don’t believe in the CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED RIGHT of freedom of religion.
https://x.com/SaraForTexLege/status/2066756697251623267

bondegezou · 1:57PM

FPT...

Richard_Tyndall said:

bondegezou said:
@Richard_Tyndall a couple of days back you mentioned your book on British intervention in southern Russia at the end of WWI. This sounds like a book I want to read! Can you tell us more?
Its a long term project that I started a few years ago and have picked up again. It revolves around the British fears of Turkish Pan Turanianism expansion into central Asia following the Russian collapse in 1917. To try and prevent this the British organised a series if interventions in the Caucaus and Southern central Asia - Dunsterforce and the Malleson Mission amongst them. As a result the British/Empire troops ended up defending Baku against the Turks and also fighting the Red Russians on the South Central Asian railway in Turkmenistan.

Its real boys own stuff and includes a small group of about 20 Australian and British soldiers defending the retreat of the last of the Assyrians from Urmia down into Persia, holding off thousands of Turks and Kurds to get 80,000 refugees to safety.

My plan is to have the first draft finished middle of next year. I have acouple of military publishers interested.

Let us know when it's out!

(I did my History O'level project on the non-Slav nationalities in the Russian Civil War.)

Gallowgate · 1:59PM

bondegezou said:
FPT...

Richard_Tyndall said:

bondegezou said:
@Richard_Tyndall a couple of days back you mentioned your book on British intervention in southern Russia at the end of WWI. This sounds like a book I want to read! Can you tell us more?
Its a long term project that I started a few years ago and have picked up again. It revolves around the British fears of Turkish Pan Turanianism expansion into central Asia following the Russian collapse in 1917. To try and prevent this the British organised a series if interventions in the Caucaus and Southern central Asia - Dunsterforce and the Malleson Mission amongst them. As a result the British/Empire troops ended up defending Baku against the Turks and also fighting the Red Russians on the South Central Asian railway in Turkmenistan.

Its real boys own stuff and includes a small group of about 20 Australian and British soldiers defending the retreat of the last of the Assyrians from Urmia down into Persia, holding off thousands of Turks and Kurds to get 80,000 refugees to safety.

My plan is to have the first draft finished middle of next year. I have acouple of military publishers interested.
Let us know when it's out!

(I did my History O'level project on the non-Slav nationalities in the Russian Civil War.)

Niche

TheScreamingEagles · 1:59PM

Nigelb said:
Muslims make up around 1.5% of the Texas electorate.

We need to be clear about what is happening in this photo.

Rick Scarborough, former Southern Baptist pastor, got on stage at the Texas Republican Convention and told state DELEGATE Mohamed Hussein to convert to Christianity or leave the country. He was so upset that he cried. It was then and only then that Rick felt guilty, so he sat down and pretended to pray for him.

The only evil we need to expel from this state are the people who don’t believe in the CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED RIGHT of freedom of religion.
https://x.com/SaraForTexLege/status/2066756697251623267

Your regular reminder that the Southern Baptist Church was founded to support slavery/oppose its abolition.

Nigelb · 2:01PM

Nigelb said:

Pulpstar said:

Nigelb said:

Nigelb said:
Dan Jarvis has taken a hospital pass by accepting the job without the precondition of more money.
And a large part of the "increase"the MoD is being allowed is smoke and mirrors financing.
And the MoD is proposing to cut useful stuff to preserve obsolescent stuff like the Challenger upgrade.

Dan Jarvis ‘will make big cuts’ unless money appears

https://www.thetimes.com/article/94a84928-736c-4ebf-b488-df472f0e72e0?shareToken=cb9823dac10c1e7b6de48c0104a0fa9f
..Sir Keir Starmer’s offer of an extra £13.5 billion in defence spending over four years, made to Jarvis’s predecessor John Healey last week, would have meant that the ministry’s existing equipment programme was unaffordable and the strategic defence review unachievable, a source familiar with those discussions said.
Defence officials working to make the numbers add up last week proposed delaying new investments in drones and artificial intelligence, cancelling reserve days and cancelling exercises, it can be revealed. Such cuts — to be outlined in the long-awaited defence investment plan — would have made the armed forces less prepared for conflict and ill-equipped to fight with the likes of Russia..

..Of the £13.5 billion offered to Healey before he resigned on Thursday, the Times understands that £3.5 billion would have been made up by “changing contingency levels with MoD budgets”...

..Also included in the £3.5 billion was the Treasury “taking on the cost of things the MoD was never going to pay for anyway”, a second source added.
“On a huge budget, a tweak to the accepted risk levels over several years will free up lots of money. A classic Treasury trick,” said John Foreman, former defence attaché to Moscow who previously worked on equipment acquisition in the Ministry of Defence..

And the settlement provides nothing at all towards funding the necessary equipment for outrapid response brigade for NATO:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/britain-bolsters-natos-eastern-flank-with-new-pact-with-estonia-and-new-cooperation-on-missile-defence

Let alone new programs like GCAP.
One of the programs Carns wants to cut.
(He is right.)

NEW: The Army’s new Challenger 3 tank is facing delays due to engineering problems.

Some suppliers have been told to halt work while the issues are resolved.

But sources say it could cause a 2yr delay. IOC is supposed to be in 2027. ..
https://x.com/mattotele/status/2066777791207518267
Could we not just buy a bunch of Leopard 2A7s from the Germans for our tanks ?
What use does the UK have for main battle tanks ?

Even if we could properly fund the "rapid reaction" 4th brigade to contribute to Europe's defence, we'd be far better spending the money on artillery and IFVs.

At the moment we're not properly funding any single component of our armed forces, and it's getting worse, not better.
Unless someone finds another few tens of billions, we need to make some pretty ruthless choices.
Binning our MBTs is one of the easy ones.

.. “If the MoD is forced to stick to the same financial package offered to John Healey of 2.68 per cent [of GDP] then we should expect cuts to spending on recruitment, training, spare parts, maintenance and reserves. This will mean lower force readiness overall showing again that the PM’s statement last year on seeking ‘warfighting readiness’ was hollow. We should also expect procurement of new kits such as drones to slip into the 2030s.”
Sir Julian Brazier, minister for reserves from 2014 to 2016, said of the proposals to cut reserve days: “The timing could not worse. It would mean the slow re-building that has been happening over the past year will be hammered.”.
https://www.thetimes.com/article/94a84928-736c-4ebf-b488-df472f0e72e0

williamglenn · 2:03PM

One of the more bizarre stories to come out of the DoJ indictments against the SPLC:

https://nypost.com/2026/06/16/us-news/splc-employee-who-paid-neo-nazi-lover-1-2-million-unmasked/

A top Southern Poverty Law Center official is accused of helping funnel $1.2 million in donor money to an informant in the National Alliance white supremacist group — who was also allegedly her lover.

Andy_JS · 2:04PM

Latest polling average from ElectionMaps

Ref 27.3%
Lab 19.3%
Con 18.4%
Grn 13.7%
LD 12.3%
Res 3.4%

https://electionmaps.uk/polling/vi

Sunil_Prasannan · 2:16PM

TWO DAYS TO SAVE THE LABOUR PARTY ANDY BURNHAM'S CAREER!!!

Theuniondivvie · 2:17PM

Bleach cures everything.

bad day to be a duck

https://x.com/igorbobic/status/2066872397056114927?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

BatteryCorrectHorse · 2:20PM

Lol how are they ever going to block VPNs

BatteryCorrectHorse · 2:20PM

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Taz said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Taz said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Taz said:

eek said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Foss said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

turbotubbs said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:
All trains should be retrofitted with RF-passing “honeycomb” glass like they have on trains in Germany.

This would improve coverage on mainline trains for millions of people overnight.
Implausible. How many use the trains daily?
About 4.7 million people every day. (1.73 billion train journeys a year divided by 365 days)
That's the upper bound, assuming they take a single point to point journey per day. Most will return so you're probably looking at around 2.7-ish million as a more realistic figure.
So millions will benefit. Get on with it.
No they won't - remember it would make no difference to any journey I've made.

So that rules out the WCML, ECML, Lizzie Line (it even works in the tunnels) and Transpennine Express..

You really have a real obsession with mobile phones - heck you make some trainspotters I know look normal and unobsessive.
If they’re going to do it it would be better to do it as part of a periodic overhaul program rather than a standalone project.

It would also take years to do. You would need to keep trains in service at the same time as the project runs.

We’d also have to test and validate the new windows to ensure they can be used. Which can be a pain in the arse in the train world. I’ve still got the scars from District Line upgrade.

We aren’t exactly overburdened with companies capable of undertaking a major overhaul project either.
Yes on every train upgrade project, add new glass or repeaters. Do it iteratively. Fine.

But people here will argue against it even in principle. We see it day after day here.

I’ve proposed many times here things that can be done as other stuff is, e.g. a station gets upgraded, always add dedicated infrastructure.

But there is no joined up thinking. The BML project is brilliant but why only that line? Why not every line over time? It is a standardised thing with very few vendors.

The UK just does it so badly.
So is the glass approved for use on rolling stock in the U.K. ?

Has it been tested and validated to see how it behaves to our standards in a crash, for example ?
They won’t have even got that far because they’ll have decided it’s too expensive to do.

It’s been certified for use on German trains.

As I said, there can be other things. Build more masts. But that also was opposed here.
Being approved for German rolling stock is only relevant if our standards are aligned.

If it is too expensive to be it.
Class 745, 755, 756 (Greater Anglia), Class 555 (Tyne & Wear), Class 777 (Merseyrail), Glasgow Subway new stock, Class 231 (Wales) all built in Switzerland.

Class 398 (Wales), Class 399 (Sheffield Supertram) built in Spain.

Class 195, 331 (Northern), Class 397 (Trans-Pennine), mostly built in Spain.

Class 185 (Transpennine) built in Germany

Class 350 (LNWR) built in Austria, Czechia, Poland, and Germany

Class 360 (Luton Express) built in Austria and Germany

Class 380 (Scotrail) built in Germany

Class 444 (Southwest) built in Austria

Class 450 (Southwest) built in Austria and Germany

Class 700 (Thameslink, Grt Northern) and Class 717 (Grt Northern) built in Germany

Class 707 (Southeastern) Built in Germany

Remember when we used to build stuff

DecrepiterJohnL · 2:22PM

Scammers keep scoring: Brits fleeced for £1.3B as Americans lose $3.5B to impersonators
More reasons to love social media and AI
https://www.theregister.com/cyber-crime/2026/06/16/scammers-keep-scoring-brits-fleeced-for-13b-as-americans-lose-35b-to-impersonators/5256106

Stay safe, everyone.

BatteryCorrectHorse · 2:23PM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crr8dyz0l48o

telecoms infrastructure firm has been told it must rethink plans for a 20m-high (66ft) town centre phone mast after the proposal was refused.
The scheme in Keighley town centre was rejected by Bradford Council, with concerns the mast – roughly the height of five double-decker buses stacked on top of each other – would clash with the surrounding environment.
The application argued a central location was needed to ensure the town centre had a good 5G signal.
Refusing the scheme, council planners said the proposal would create a "visually prominent and intrusive feature within the conservation area".
The applicant, Mobile Broadband Network Ltd (MBNL), is looking to replace telecoms equipment currently located on the Devonshire House office building.
A new location is needed due to planned works to the roof.
It is the second time this year MBNL has seen plans for a site in the town turned down.

And we wonder why nothing gets built in this country. Absolutely bonkers.

eek · 2:31PM

BatteryCorrectHorse said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crr8dyz0l48o

telecoms infrastructure firm has been told it must rethink plans for a 20m-high (66ft) town centre phone mast after the proposal was refused.
The scheme in Keighley town centre was rejected by Bradford Council, with concerns the mast – roughly the height of five double-decker buses stacked on top of each other – would clash with the surrounding environment.
The application argued a central location was needed to ensure the town centre had a good 5G signal.
Refusing the scheme, council planners said the proposal would create a "visually prominent and intrusive feature within the conservation area".
The applicant, Mobile Broadband Network Ltd (MBNL), is looking to replace telecoms equipment currently located on the Devonshire House office building.
A new location is needed due to planned works to the roof.
It is the second time this year MBNL has seen plans for a site in the town turned down.

And we wonder why nothing gets built in this country. Absolutely bonkers.

You could instead use a number of small masts (which you well know)., But that would eat into your bosses profits..

Sunil_Prasannan · 2:32PM

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Taz said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Taz said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Taz said:

eek said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Foss said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

turbotubbs said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:
All trains should be retrofitted with RF-passing “honeycomb” glass like they have on trains in Germany.

This would improve coverage on mainline trains for millions of people overnight.
Implausible. How many use the trains daily?
About 4.7 million people every day. (1.73 billion train journeys a year divided by 365 days)
That's the upper bound, assuming they take a single point to point journey per day. Most will return so you're probably looking at around 2.7-ish million as a more realistic figure.
So millions will benefit. Get on with it.
No they won't - remember it would make no difference to any journey I've made.

So that rules out the WCML, ECML, Lizzie Line (it even works in the tunnels) and Transpennine Express..

You really have a real obsession with mobile phones - heck you make some trainspotters I know look normal and unobsessive.
If they’re going to do it it would be better to do it as part of a periodic overhaul program rather than a standalone project.

It would also take years to do. You would need to keep trains in service at the same time as the project runs.

We’d also have to test and validate the new windows to ensure they can be used. Which can be a pain in the arse in the train world. I’ve still got the scars from District Line upgrade.

We aren’t exactly overburdened with companies capable of undertaking a major overhaul project either.
Yes on every train upgrade project, add new glass or repeaters. Do it iteratively. Fine.

But people here will argue against it even in principle. We see it day after day here.

I’ve proposed many times here things that can be done as other stuff is, e.g. a station gets upgraded, always add dedicated infrastructure.

But there is no joined up thinking. The BML project is brilliant but why only that line? Why not every line over time? It is a standardised thing with very few vendors.

The UK just does it so badly.
So is the glass approved for use on rolling stock in the U.K. ?

Has it been tested and validated to see how it behaves to our standards in a crash, for example ?
They won’t have even got that far because they’ll have decided it’s too expensive to do.

It’s been certified for use on German trains.

As I said, there can be other things. Build more masts. But that also was opposed here.
Being approved for German rolling stock is only relevant if our standards are aligned.

If it is too expensive to be it.
Class 745, 755, 756 (Greater Anglia), Class 555 (Tyne & Wear), Class 777 (Merseyrail), Glasgow Subway new stock, Class 231 (Wales) all built in Switzerland.

Class 398 (Wales), Class 399 (Sheffield Supertram) built in Spain.

Class 195, 331 (Northern), Class 397 (Trans-Pennine), mostly built in Spain.

Class 185 (Transpennine) built in Germany

Class 350 (LNWR) built in Austria, Czechia, Poland, and Germany

Class 360 (Luton Express) built in Austria and Germany

Class 380 (Scotrail) built in Germany

Class 444 (Southwest) built in Austria

Class 450 (Southwest) built in Austria and Germany

Class 700 (Thameslink, Grt Northern) and Class 717 (Grt Northern) built in Germany

Class 707 (Southeastern) Built in Germany
Remember when we used to build stuff

Fret not. Most recently:

Class 345 (Elizabeth line)

Class 701 (Southwest)

Class 710 (London Overground)

Class 720 (Greater Anglia)

Class 730 (LNWR)

Class 807 (Avanti)

Class 810 (East Midlands)

Brixian59 · 2:42PM

Frost At Dawn 3.40

Lovely mare loves good to firm quid ew at 50/1

Night Raider looks an absolute beast

Taz · 2:42PM

Sunil_Prasannan said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Taz said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Taz said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Taz said:

eek said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Foss said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

turbotubbs said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:
All trains should be retrofitted with RF-passing “honeycomb” glass like they have on trains in Germany.

This would improve coverage on mainline trains for millions of people overnight.
Implausible. How many use the trains daily?
About 4.7 million people every day. (1.73 billion train journeys a year divided by 365 days)
That's the upper bound, assuming they take a single point to point journey per day. Most will return so you're probably looking at around 2.7-ish million as a more realistic figure.
So millions will benefit. Get on with it.
No they won't - remember it would make no difference to any journey I've made.

So that rules out the WCML, ECML, Lizzie Line (it even works in the tunnels) and Transpennine Express..

You really have a real obsession with mobile phones - heck you make some trainspotters I know look normal and unobsessive.
If they’re going to do it it would be better to do it as part of a periodic overhaul program rather than a standalone project.

It would also take years to do. You would need to keep trains in service at the same time as the project runs.

We’d also have to test and validate the new windows to ensure they can be used. Which can be a pain in the arse in the train world. I’ve still got the scars from District Line upgrade.

We aren’t exactly overburdened with companies capable of undertaking a major overhaul project either.
Yes on every train upgrade project, add new glass or repeaters. Do it iteratively. Fine.

But people here will argue against it even in principle. We see it day after day here.

I’ve proposed many times here things that can be done as other stuff is, e.g. a station gets upgraded, always add dedicated infrastructure.

But there is no joined up thinking. The BML project is brilliant but why only that line? Why not every line over time? It is a standardised thing with very few vendors.

The UK just does it so badly.
So is the glass approved for use on rolling stock in the U.K. ?

Has it been tested and validated to see how it behaves to our standards in a crash, for example ?
They won’t have even got that far because they’ll have decided it’s too expensive to do.

It’s been certified for use on German trains.

As I said, there can be other things. Build more masts. But that also was opposed here.
Being approved for German rolling stock is only relevant if our standards are aligned.

If it is too expensive to be it.
Class 745, 755, 756 (Greater Anglia), Class 555 (Tyne & Wear), Class 777 (Merseyrail), Glasgow Subway new stock, Class 231 (Wales) all built in Switzerland.

Class 398 (Wales), Class 399 (Sheffield Supertram) built in Spain.

Class 195, 331 (Northern), Class 397 (Trans-Pennine), mostly built in Spain.

Class 185 (Transpennine) built in Germany

Class 350 (LNWR) built in Austria, Czechia, Poland, and Germany

Class 360 (Luton Express) built in Austria and Germany

Class 380 (Scotrail) built in Germany

Class 444 (Southwest) built in Austria

Class 450 (Southwest) built in Austria and Germany

Class 700 (Thameslink, Grt Northern) and Class 717 (Grt Northern) built in Germany

Class 707 (Southeastern) Built in Germany
Remember when we used to build stuff
Fret not. Most recently:

Class 345 (Elizabeth line)

Class 701 (Southwest)

Class 710 (London Overground)

Class 720 (Greater Anglia)

Class 730 (LNWR)

Class 807 (Avanti)

Class 810 (East Midlands)

It’s worth remembering that overhaul and major refurbishment projects, which by and large stay in the U.K., are high value projects which create a lot of work in the Supply Chain as well as the overhauler. It also features a lot new product as well as overhauling stuff

When I worked at Alstom their strategy was very much to target periodic overhaul as it was quite lucrative.

Stuartinromford · 2:43PM

On the header, Beautiful Chart Man points out:

A lot of theories circulating about this, but the primary driver of the shift is a lot of Conservative and Reform UK voters seemingly going "The Labour Party? But I hate the Labour Party". There is a smaller increase in unfavourable among Lab/LD/Grn voters, but little change in favourable with them.

https://bsky.app/profile/dylandifford.bsky.social/post/3mofzjbomys2y

It puts Burnham in a similar, though slightly more positive*, position to Starmer on the eve of the 2024 election (which was 36% vs 54%), which isn't great, but is nowhere near Starmer today. Not a fresh start, but a reset to July 2024.

*with the biggest difference being among Green voters.

I wonder how short Burnham's honeymoon will be?

rcs1000 · 2:46PM

BatteryCorrectHorse said:
Lol how are they ever going to block VPNs

And SSH? And Tor? And the various obfuscation methods people use to mask internet traffic?

rcs1000 · 2:47PM

Nigelb said:

Pulpstar said:

Nigelb said:

Nigelb said:
Dan Jarvis has taken a hospital pass by accepting the job without the precondition of more money.
And a large part of the "increase"the MoD is being allowed is smoke and mirrors financing.
And the MoD is proposing to cut useful stuff to preserve obsolescent stuff like the Challenger upgrade.

Dan Jarvis ‘will make big cuts’ unless money appears

https://www.thetimes.com/article/94a84928-736c-4ebf-b488-df472f0e72e0?shareToken=cb9823dac10c1e7b6de48c0104a0fa9f
..Sir Keir Starmer’s offer of an extra £13.5 billion in defence spending over four years, made to Jarvis’s predecessor John Healey last week, would have meant that the ministry’s existing equipment programme was unaffordable and the strategic defence review unachievable, a source familiar with those discussions said.
Defence officials working to make the numbers add up last week proposed delaying new investments in drones and artificial intelligence, cancelling reserve days and cancelling exercises, it can be revealed. Such cuts — to be outlined in the long-awaited defence investment plan — would have made the armed forces less prepared for conflict and ill-equipped to fight with the likes of Russia..

..Of the £13.5 billion offered to Healey before he resigned on Thursday, the Times understands that £3.5 billion would have been made up by “changing contingency levels with MoD budgets”...

..Also included in the £3.5 billion was the Treasury “taking on the cost of things the MoD was never going to pay for anyway”, a second source added.
“On a huge budget, a tweak to the accepted risk levels over several years will free up lots of money. A classic Treasury trick,” said John Foreman, former defence attaché to Moscow who previously worked on equipment acquisition in the Ministry of Defence..

And the settlement provides nothing at all towards funding the necessary equipment for outrapid response brigade for NATO:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/britain-bolsters-natos-eastern-flank-with-new-pact-with-estonia-and-new-cooperation-on-missile-defence

Let alone new programs like GCAP.
One of the programs Carns wants to cut.
(He is right.)

NEW: The Army’s new Challenger 3 tank is facing delays due to engineering problems.

Some suppliers have been told to halt work while the issues are resolved.

But sources say it could cause a 2yr delay. IOC is supposed to be in 2027. ..
https://x.com/mattotele/status/2066777791207518267
Could we not just buy a bunch of Leopard 2A7s from the Germans for our tanks ?
What use does the UK have for main battle tanks ?

Even if we could properly fund the "rapid reaction" 4th brigade to contribute to Europe's defence, we'd be far better spending the money on artillery and IFVs.

At the moment we're not properly funding any single component of our armed forces, and it's getting worse, not better.
Unless someone finds another few tens of billions, we need to make some pretty ruthless choices.
Binning our MBTs is one of the easy ones.

Indeed: the motto of the MoD appears to be: Subscale Everywhere

Taz · 2:48PM

rcs1000 said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:
Lol how are they ever going to block VPNs
And SSH? And Tor? And the various obfuscation methods people use to mask internet traffic?

I take it young people can do this because it’s double Dutch to this old codger.

Foss · 2:51PM

rcs1000 said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:
Lol how are they ever going to block VPNs
And SSH? And Tor? And the various obfuscation methods people use to mask internet traffic?

They can't even keep up with the pirate streaming sites.

Brixian59 · 2:52PM

rcs1000 said:

Nigelb said:

Pulpstar said:

Nigelb said:

Nigelb said:
Dan Jarvis has taken a hospital pass by accepting the job without the precondition of more money.
And a large part of the "increase"the MoD is being allowed is smoke and mirrors financing.
And the MoD is proposing to cut useful stuff to preserve obsolescent stuff like the Challenger upgrade.

Dan Jarvis ‘will make big cuts’ unless money appears

https://www.thetimes.com/article/94a84928-736c-4ebf-b488-df472f0e72e0?shareToken=cb9823dac10c1e7b6de48c0104a0fa9f
..Sir Keir Starmer’s offer of an extra £13.5 billion in defence spending over four years, made to Jarvis’s predecessor John Healey last week, would have meant that the ministry’s existing equipment programme was unaffordable and the strategic defence review unachievable, a source familiar with those discussions said.
Defence officials working to make the numbers add up last week proposed delaying new investments in drones and artificial intelligence, cancelling reserve days and cancelling exercises, it can be revealed. Such cuts — to be outlined in the long-awaited defence investment plan — would have made the armed forces less prepared for conflict and ill-equipped to fight with the likes of Russia..

..Of the £13.5 billion offered to Healey before he resigned on Thursday, the Times understands that £3.5 billion would have been made up by “changing contingency levels with MoD budgets”...

..Also included in the £3.5 billion was the Treasury “taking on the cost of things the MoD was never going to pay for anyway”, a second source added.
“On a huge budget, a tweak to the accepted risk levels over several years will free up lots of money. A classic Treasury trick,” said John Foreman, former defence attaché to Moscow who previously worked on equipment acquisition in the Ministry of Defence..

And the settlement provides nothing at all towards funding the necessary equipment for outrapid response brigade for NATO:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/britain-bolsters-natos-eastern-flank-with-new-pact-with-estonia-and-new-cooperation-on-missile-defence

Let alone new programs like GCAP.
One of the programs Carns wants to cut.
(He is right.)

NEW: The Army’s new Challenger 3 tank is facing delays due to engineering problems.

Some suppliers have been told to halt work while the issues are resolved.

But sources say it could cause a 2yr delay. IOC is supposed to be in 2027. ..
https://x.com/mattotele/status/2066777791207518267
Could we not just buy a bunch of Leopard 2A7s from the Germans for our tanks ?
What use does the UK have for main battle tanks ?

Even if we could properly fund the "rapid reaction" 4th brigade to contribute to Europe's defence, we'd be far better spending the money on artillery and IFVs.

At the moment we're not properly funding any single component of our armed forces, and it's getting worse, not better.
Unless someone finds another few tens of billions, we need to make some pretty ruthless choices.
Binning our MBTs is one of the easy ones.
Indeed: the motto of the MoD appears to be: Subscale Everywhere

How effective is any Tank.

How useful is any Tank in the UK

Surely the word defence means defend not attack.

This is the point Jarvis and Cairns, are try to make against theittle England global power right Wing crap.

Build, develop or buy what we need for the next 20 years, not the past 50 years and scrap value.

The elephant in the room to is do we need a outdated nuclear option that just makes us a target

It's not just money, it's how you spend it and what you spend it on and tanks, ships and some types of aircraft are just beyond useful defensive use.

Nigelb · 2:53PM

Interesting snippet from Carns's resignation speech.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2026/jun/16/andy-burnham-makerfield-labour-reform-keir-starmer-uk-politics-latest-news-updates?page=with:block-6a314d468f084ec9fe8281f5#block-6a314d468f084ec9fe8281f5
..This was an implicit criticism of Healey, who (unlike Carns) had been working on the Dip for months.

Explaining why he quit, Carns said:

Firstly, because I no longer believe the defence investment plan was preparing for the wars we are most likely to fight.
The character of warfare is changing at an exceptional speed.
In Ukraine a navy without a ship has destroyed a navy. A drone costing thousands candestroy a tank costing millions. A drone can now strike 2000km into Russia at a fraction of the cost of a fighter jet.
It is not either/or. It’s an equitable mix of high-end sophistication coupled with low-end mass. That’s the balance we must seek.
But from my view, the defence investment plan did not strike that balance for various reasons..

Rather remarkably, Carns was not shown the plan until the week before last.

Meantime, the MoD keeps churning out the bullshit. At pace.
(Times)
..A defence ministry spokeswoman said: “The DIP [defence investment plan] will deliver the best kit into the hands of our armed forces. The defence secretary is working through the detail now, so the plan meets their needs. Work on the plan is continuing at pace, and it will be published ahead of the Nato Summit.”..

Brixian59 · 2:53PM

Stuartinromford said:
On the header, Beautiful Chart Man points out:

A lot of theories circulating about this, but the primary driver of the shift is a lot of Conservative and Reform UK voters seemingly going "The Labour Party? But I hate the Labour Party". There is a smaller increase in unfavourable among Lab/LD/Grn voters, but little change in favourable with them.

https://bsky.app/profile/dylandifford.bsky.social/post/3mofzjbomys2y

It puts Burnham in a similar, though slightly more positive*, position to Starmer on the eve of the 2024 election (which was 36% vs 54%), which isn't great, but is nowhere near Starmer today. Not a fresh start, but a reset to July 2024.

*with the biggest difference being among Green voters.

I wonder how short Burnham's honeymoon will be?

A few weeks as the rabid right make up stories and concerted propaganda exercise.

A_View_From_Cumbria5 · 2:53PM

rcs1000 said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:
Lol how are they ever going to block VPNs
And SSH? And Tor? And the various obfuscation methods people use to mask internet traffic?

Are they going to ban Firefox ? Gives me 50Gb per month from wherever. Costs nothing. Will it be an offence to set Firefox to View from the United States ? Someone else routes his phone through Sweden also for free I think.

Sweeney74 · 2:53PM

rcs1000 said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:
Lol how are they ever going to block VPNs
And SSH? And Tor? And the various obfuscation methods people use to mask internet traffic?

It's not about the fifteen-year-old running Tor, it's about about the thirteen-year-old who downloads TikTok because everyone else in her class has TikTok.

If you make social media less ubiquitous, less socially compulsory and slightly more awkward to access, you’ve changed behaviour for millions of normal users even though the nerds are still tunnelling packets through three continents. As ever, public policy is aimed at the middle of the bell curve, not the people arguing about SSH port forwarding online.

williamglenn · 2:54PM

Brixian59 said:

rcs1000 said:

Nigelb said:

Pulpstar said:

Nigelb said:

Nigelb said:
Dan Jarvis has taken a hospital pass by accepting the job without the precondition of more money.
And a large part of the "increase"the MoD is being allowed is smoke and mirrors financing.
And the MoD is proposing to cut useful stuff to preserve obsolescent stuff like the Challenger upgrade.

Dan Jarvis ‘will make big cuts’ unless money appears

https://www.thetimes.com/article/94a84928-736c-4ebf-b488-df472f0e72e0?shareToken=cb9823dac10c1e7b6de48c0104a0fa9f
..Sir Keir Starmer’s offer of an extra £13.5 billion in defence spending over four years, made to Jarvis’s predecessor John Healey last week, would have meant that the ministry’s existing equipment programme was unaffordable and the strategic defence review unachievable, a source familiar with those discussions said.
Defence officials working to make the numbers add up last week proposed delaying new investments in drones and artificial intelligence, cancelling reserve days and cancelling exercises, it can be revealed. Such cuts — to be outlined in the long-awaited defence investment plan — would have made the armed forces less prepared for conflict and ill-equipped to fight with the likes of Russia..

..Of the £13.5 billion offered to Healey before he resigned on Thursday, the Times understands that £3.5 billion would have been made up by “changing contingency levels with MoD budgets”...

..Also included in the £3.5 billion was the Treasury “taking on the cost of things the MoD was never going to pay for anyway”, a second source added.
“On a huge budget, a tweak to the accepted risk levels over several years will free up lots of money. A classic Treasury trick,” said John Foreman, former defence attaché to Moscow who previously worked on equipment acquisition in the Ministry of Defence..

And the settlement provides nothing at all towards funding the necessary equipment for outrapid response brigade for NATO:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/britain-bolsters-natos-eastern-flank-with-new-pact-with-estonia-and-new-cooperation-on-missile-defence

Let alone new programs like GCAP.
One of the programs Carns wants to cut.
(He is right.)

NEW: The Army’s new Challenger 3 tank is facing delays due to engineering problems.

Some suppliers have been told to halt work while the issues are resolved.

But sources say it could cause a 2yr delay. IOC is supposed to be in 2027. ..
https://x.com/mattotele/status/2066777791207518267
Could we not just buy a bunch of Leopard 2A7s from the Germans for our tanks ?
What use does the UK have for main battle tanks ?

Even if we could properly fund the "rapid reaction" 4th brigade to contribute to Europe's defence, we'd be far better spending the money on artillery and IFVs.

At the moment we're not properly funding any single component of our armed forces, and it's getting worse, not better.
Unless someone finds another few tens of billions, we need to make some pretty ruthless choices.
Binning our MBTs is one of the easy ones.
Indeed: the motto of the MoD appears to be: Subscale Everywhere
How effective is any Tank.

How useful is any Tank in the UK

Surely the word defence means defend not attack.

This is the point Jarvis and Cairns, are try to make against theittle England global power right Wing crap.

Build, develop or buy what we need for the next 20 years, not the past 50 years and scrap value.

The elephant in the room to is do we need a outdated nuclear option that just makes us a target

It's not just money, it's how you spend it and what you spend it on and tanks, ships and some types of aircraft are just beyond useful defensive use.

I wonder if North Korea shares the view that having nuclear weapons just makes them a target.

rottenborough · 2:57PM

Nigelb said:
Interesting snippet from Carns's resignation speech.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2026/jun/16/andy-burnham-makerfield-labour-reform-keir-starmer-uk-politics-latest-news-updates?page=with:block-6a314d468f084ec9fe8281f5#block-6a314d468f084ec9fe8281f5
..This was an implicit criticism of Healey, who (unlike Carns) had been working on the Dip for months.

Explaining why he quit, Carns said:

Firstly, because I no longer believe the defence investment plan was preparing for the wars we are most likely to fight.
The character of warfare is changing at an exceptional speed.
In Ukraine a navy without a ship has destroyed a navy. A drone costing thousands candestroy a tank costing millions. A drone can now strike 2000km into Russia at a fraction of the cost of a fighter jet.
It is not either/or. It’s an equitable mix of high-end sophistication coupled with low-end mass. That’s the balance we must seek.
But from my view, the defence investment plan did not strike that balance for various reasons..

Rather remarkably, Carns was not shown the plan until the week before last.

Meantime, the MoD keeps churning out the bullshit. At pace.
(Times)
..A defence ministry spokeswoman said: “The DIP [defence investment plan] will deliver the best kit into the hands of our armed forces. The defence secretary is working through the detail now, so the plan meets their needs. Work on the plan is continuing at pace, and it will be published ahead of the Nato Summit.”..

The DIP is turning into the HS2 of policy documents. Should be ready by, say, 2036.

Sweeney74 · 2:58PM

Taz said:

rcs1000 said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:
Lol how are they ever going to block VPNs
And SSH? And Tor? And the various obfuscation methods people use to mask internet traffic?
I take it young people can do this because it’s double Dutch to this old codger.

Most can't now.
Depending on how the ban is enforced many will learn how relatively quickly.
But that's not an argument agains a ban. We don’t abandon age restrictions on alcohol because some teenagers can get served, or speed limits because some drivers speed.

Monkeys · 3:02PM

Sweeney74 said:

Taz said:

rcs1000 said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:
Lol how are they ever going to block VPNs
And SSH? And Tor? And the various obfuscation methods people use to mask internet traffic?
I take it young people can do this because it’s double Dutch to this old codger.
Most can't now.
Depending on how the ban is enforced many will learn how relatively quickly.
But that's not an argument agains a ban. We don’t abandon age restrictions on alcohol because some teenagers can get served, or speed limits because some drivers speed.

The kids will go on something worse than social media, like 4chan. The VPN ban idea is the response of a nervous wreck overreaching with the illusion of control. They need therapy, or drugs in the first instance.

Flatlander · 3:04PM

Sweeney74 said:

Taz said:

rcs1000 said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:
Lol how are they ever going to block VPNs
And SSH? And Tor? And the various obfuscation methods people use to mask internet traffic?
I take it young people can do this because it’s double Dutch to this old codger.
Most can't now.
Depending on how the ban is enforced many will learn how relatively quickly.
But that's not an argument agains a ban. We don’t abandon age restrictions on alcohol because some teenagers can get served, or speed limits because some drivers speed.

On the other hand, there's no likelihood of identifiable information being leaked to the world when a 50 year old buys a pint in Spoons.

If we are going to have Digital ID, at least admit that's what you are doing, and do it properly.

BatteryCorrectHorse · 3:09PM

eek said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crr8dyz0l48o

telecoms infrastructure firm has been told it must rethink plans for a 20m-high (66ft) town centre phone mast after the proposal was refused.
The scheme in Keighley town centre was rejected by Bradford Council, with concerns the mast – roughly the height of five double-decker buses stacked on top of each other – would clash with the surrounding environment.
The application argued a central location was needed to ensure the town centre had a good 5G signal.
Refusing the scheme, council planners said the proposal would create a "visually prominent and intrusive feature within the conservation area".
The applicant, Mobile Broadband Network Ltd (MBNL), is looking to replace telecoms equipment currently located on the Devonshire House office building.
A new location is needed due to planned works to the roof.
It is the second time this year MBNL has seen plans for a site in the town turned down.

And we wonder why nothing gets built in this country. Absolutely bonkers.
You could instead use a number of small masts (which you well know)., But that would eat into your bosses profits..

That is a small mast, literally the smallest mast you can build. You obviously didn’t read the article.

Do you mean a small cell? They provide about 300m of coverage so you’d need hundreds to cover a small town.

Sweeney74 · 3:10PM

Monkeys said:

Sweeney74 said:

Taz said:

rcs1000 said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:
Lol how are they ever going to block VPNs
And SSH? And Tor? And the various obfuscation methods people use to mask internet traffic?
I take it young people can do this because it’s double Dutch to this old codger.
Most can't now.
Depending on how the ban is enforced many will learn how relatively quickly.
But that's not an argument agains a ban. We don’t abandon age restrictions on alcohol because some teenagers can get served, or speed limits because some drivers speed.
The kids will go on something worse than social media, like 4chan. The VPN ban idea is the response of a nervous wreck overreaching with the illusion of control. They need therapy, or drugs in the first instance.

We’re discussing a proposal to restrict access to social media for children, not mandatory chip implantation and a Ministry of Truth.

The harms of social media on minors are now well documented and widely accepted. Doing nothing is not a neutral position. It is a conscious choice to allow those harms to continue.

Instead of disappearing down the conspiracy rabbit hole, or smugly declaring that “da yoof” will bypass the controls with VPNs and disappear into the dark web, perhaps we could have a grown-up discussion about what might actually help.

No policy is ever 100% effective. We don’t abandon age restrictions on alcohol because some teenagers get served, or speed limits because some drivers speed.

The question isn’t whether a determined minority can circumvent the rules. It’s whether the lives of the much larger compliant majority are improved.

If you’ve got better ideas, let’s hear them. If not, “they’ll get around it anyway” isn’t much of a policy.

BatteryCorrectHorse · 3:10PM

Foss said:

rcs1000 said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:
Lol how are they ever going to block VPNs
And SSH? And Tor? And the various obfuscation methods people use to mask internet traffic?
They can't even keep up with the pirate streaming sites.

I’m on several private trackers. I think this is what the government thinks is the “dark web”, apparently they mean “not available via Google”

Fairliered · 3:10PM

Brixian59 said:

Stuartinromford said:
On the header, Beautiful Chart Man points out:

A lot of theories circulating about this, but the primary driver of the shift is a lot of Conservative and Reform UK voters seemingly going "The Labour Party? But I hate the Labour Party". There is a smaller increase in unfavourable among Lab/LD/Grn voters, but little change in favourable with them.

https://bsky.app/profile/dylandifford.bsky.social/post/3mofzjbomys2y

It puts Burnham in a similar, though slightly more positive*, position to Starmer on the eve of the 2024 election (which was 36% vs 54%), which isn't great, but is nowhere near Starmer today. Not a fresh start, but a reset to July 2024.

*with the biggest difference being among Green voters.

I wonder how short Burnham's honeymoon will be?
A few weeks as the rabid right make up stories and concerted propaganda exercise.

If we’re going to ban social media for under 16s, we should also ban the Mail, Telegraph and Express for over 65s. Just think of the reduction in heart attacks and dyspepsia.

Cookie · 3:11PM

A_View_From_Cumbria5 said:

rcs1000 said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:
Lol how are they ever going to block VPNs
And SSH? And Tor? And the various obfuscation methods people use to mask internet traffic?
Are they going to ban Firefox ? Gives me 50Gb per month from wherever. Costs nothing. Will it be an offence to set Firefox to View from the United States ? Someone else routes his phone through Sweden also for free I think.

I have a computer I rarely use (because it needs 90 minutes of being plugged in before it gets switched on) on which the default browser is Firefox - I turned it on yesterday and noticed Firefox appears to have a VPN attached now - is this free? Does it work? Presumably this will kill the business model of other VPN companies?

turbotubbs · 3:12PM

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Taz said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Taz said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Taz said:

eek said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Foss said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

turbotubbs said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:
All trains should be retrofitted with RF-passing “honeycomb” glass like they have on trains in Germany.

This would improve coverage on mainline trains for millions of people overnight.
Implausible. How many use the trains daily?
About 4.7 million people every day. (1.73 billion train journeys a year divided by 365 days)
That's the upper bound, assuming they take a single point to point journey per day. Most will return so you're probably looking at around 2.7-ish million as a more realistic figure.
So millions will benefit. Get on with it.
No they won't - remember it would make no difference to any journey I've made.

So that rules out the WCML, ECML, Lizzie Line (it even works in the tunnels) and Transpennine Express..

You really have a real obsession with mobile phones - heck you make some trainspotters I know look normal and unobsessive.
If they’re going to do it it would be better to do it as part of a periodic overhaul program rather than a standalone project.

It would also take years to do. You would need to keep trains in service at the same time as the project runs.

We’d also have to test and validate the new windows to ensure they can be used. Which can be a pain in the arse in the train world. I’ve still got the scars from District Line upgrade.

We aren’t exactly overburdened with companies capable of undertaking a major overhaul project either.
Yes on every train upgrade project, add new glass or repeaters. Do it iteratively. Fine.

But people here will argue against it even in principle. We see it day after day here.

I’ve proposed many times here things that can be done as other stuff is, e.g. a station gets upgraded, always add dedicated infrastructure.

But there is no joined up thinking. The BML project is brilliant but why only that line? Why not every line over time? It is a standardised thing with very few vendors.

The UK just does it so badly.
So is the glass approved for use on rolling stock in the U.K. ?

Has it been tested and validated to see how it behaves to our standards in a crash, for example ?
They won’t have even got that far because they’ll have decided it’s too expensive to do.

It’s been certified for use on German trains.

As I said, there can be other things. Build more masts. But that also was opposed here.
Being approved for German rolling stock is only relevant if our standards are aligned.

If it is too expensive to be it.
Class 745, 755, 756 (Greater Anglia), Class 555 (Tyne & Wear), Class 777 (Merseyrail), Glasgow Subway new stock, Class 231 (Wales) all built in Switzerland.

Class 398 (Wales), Class 399 (Sheffield Supertram) built in Spain.

Class 195, 331 (Northern), Class 397 (Trans-Pennine), mostly built in Spain.

Class 185 (Transpennine) built in Germany

Class 350 (LNWR) built in Austria, Czechia, Poland, and Germany

Class 360 (Luton Express) built in Austria and Germany

Class 380 (Scotrail) built in Germany

Class 444 (Southwest) built in Austria

Class 450 (Southwest) built in Austria and Germany

Class 700 (Thameslink, Grt Northern) and Class 717 (Grt Northern) built in Germany

Class 707 (Southeastern) Built in Germany
Remember when we used to build stuff

Yes but we decided to build pacers FFS.

Sweeney74 · 3:13PM

Flatlander said:

Sweeney74 said:

Taz said:

rcs1000 said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:
Lol how are they ever going to block VPNs
And SSH? And Tor? And the various obfuscation methods people use to mask internet traffic?
I take it young people can do this because it’s double Dutch to this old codger.
Most can't now.
Depending on how the ban is enforced many will learn how relatively quickly.
But that's not an argument agains a ban. We don’t abandon age restrictions on alcohol because some teenagers can get served, or speed limits because some drivers speed.
On the other hand, there's no likelihood of identifiable information being leaked to the world when a 50 year old buys a pint in Spoons.

If we are going to have Digital ID, at least admit that's what you are doing, and do it properly.

We don’t need a national digital ID scheme to establish whether someone is under 16 any more than Spoons needs to know my NI number before serving me a pint.

The debate should be about the implementation, not pretending every form of age verification is secretly digital ID by another name.

And for the record, I am steadfastly opposed to a national digital id.

Flatlander · 3:15PM

Sweeney74 said:

Monkeys said:

Sweeney74 said:

Taz said:

rcs1000 said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:
Lol how are they ever going to block VPNs
And SSH? And Tor? And the various obfuscation methods people use to mask internet traffic?
I take it young people can do this because it’s double Dutch to this old codger.
Most can't now.
Depending on how the ban is enforced many will learn how relatively quickly.
But that's not an argument agains a ban. We don’t abandon age restrictions on alcohol because some teenagers can get served, or speed limits because some drivers speed.
The kids will go on something worse than social media, like 4chan. The VPN ban idea is the response of a nervous wreck overreaching with the illusion of control. They need therapy, or drugs in the first instance.
We’re discussing a proposal to restrict access to social media for children, not mandatory chip implantation and a Ministry of Truth.

The harms of social media on minors are now well documented and widely accepted. Doing nothing is not a neutral position. It is a conscious choice to allow those harms to continue.

Instead of disappearing down the conspiracy rabbit hole, or smugly declaring that “da yoof” will bypass the controls with VPNs and disappear into the dark web, perhaps we could have a grown-up discussion about what might actually help.

No policy is ever 100% effective. We don’t abandon age restrictions on alcohol because some teenagers get served, or speed limits because some drivers speed.

The question isn’t whether a determined minority can circumvent the rules. It’s whether the lives of the much larger compliant majority are improved.

If you’ve got better ideas, let’s hear them. If not, “they’ll get around it anyway” isn’t much of a policy.

The issue is that the plan cannot be implemented without restricting access for everyone, not just children.

If you do want to do this, we need a proper double-blind government Digital ID for everyone, where
a) The site receiving the verification only receives a flag that you are over 18
b) The site providing the verification doesn't know what you are looking at.

I believe it works like this in France.

Don't pretend that this is just a small change for da kids.

And if TikTok and the like are publishing stuff that shouldn't be seen, then deal with TikTok first, before restricting the populace.

NickPalmer · 3:15PM

LostPassword said:

bondegezou said:
LibDem and Your Party are the most popular parties. Ed Davey as PM and Zarah Sultana as DPM?
Reform and the Greens are the most popular parties. The Lib Dems and Your Party are the least unpopular parties.

The large value of don't know for the Lib Dems is quite remarkable. Continuing hangover from the Coalition, or a consequence of Farage starving all the other opposition parties of attention?

With votes spread over 5-6 parties, being popular with 25% is more important than not being unpopular with 50%.

MikeL · 3:15PM

I asked yesterday how the YouTube ban would work when you don't need to log in or have any type of account to watch a YouTube video. Nobody responded - presumably as the Govt did nothing to make the position clear.

After a fair bit of googling, it appears the ban is actually going to be on under 16s having a YouTube account.

So under 16s will still be able to watch a YouTube video. But under 16s won't be able to subscribe, comment, like etc.

Is this in line with everyone's understanding?

BatteryCorrectHorse · 3:16PM

Andy Burnham considers bringing back one David M.

I think he may run a very interesting government.

Foss · 3:18PM

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Foss said:

rcs1000 said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:
Lol how are they ever going to block VPNs
And SSH? And Tor? And the various obfuscation methods people use to mask internet traffic?
They can't even keep up with the pirate streaming sites.
I’m on several private trackers. I think this is what the government thinks is the “dark web”, apparently they mean “not available via Google”

Given Google Search's degeneration since the late 00s that's increasingly everything.

Battlebus · 3:19PM

Pic of SKS or AB on Friday morning.

Flatlander · 3:20PM

Foss said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Foss said:

rcs1000 said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:
Lol how are they ever going to block VPNs
And SSH? And Tor? And the various obfuscation methods people use to mask internet traffic?
They can't even keep up with the pirate streaming sites.
I’m on several private trackers. I think this is what the government thinks is the “dark web”, apparently they mean “not available via Google”
Given Google Search's degeneration since the late 00s that's increasingly everything.

If you search once and get what you want, you see one set of adverts (assuming you aren't blocking them).

If you have to search several times and click over the page to find what you want, you see many sets of adverts...

bondegezou · 3:21PM

williamglenn said:
One of the more bizarre stories to come out of the DoJ indictments against the SPLC:

https://nypost.com/2026/06/16/us-news/splc-employee-who-paid-neo-nazi-lover-1-2-million-unmasked/

A top Southern Poverty Law Center official is accused of helping funnel $1.2 million in donor money to an informant in the National Alliance white supremacist group — who was also allegedly her lover.

But this is Trump's DoJ, so that could just be made up.

Sweeney74 · 3:22PM

MikeL said:
I asked yesterday how the YouTube ban would work when you don't need to log in or have any type of account to watch a YouTube video. Nobody responded - presumably as the Govt did nothing to make the position clear.

After a fair bit of googling, it appears the ban is actually going to be on under 16s having a YouTube account.

So under 16s will still be able to watch a YouTube video. But under 16s won't be able to subscribe, comment, like etc.

Is this in line with everyone's understanding?

That’s my understanding too.

The proposal appears to be about restricting YouTube accounts rather than access to YouTube videos. Which makes some sense if the concern is the social media aspects of the platform rather than video consumption itself.

Sweeney74 · 3:23PM

BatteryCorrectHorse said:
Andy Burnham considers bringing back one David M.

I think he may run a very interesting government.

Interesting as in "may you live in interesting times"?

Big_G_NorthWales · 3:23PM

Sky

Russian warship fires warning shots at a yacht in the channel

What's that about defence spending ?

https://news.sky.com/liveblog-webview/ukraine-war-latest-russian-strikes-kill-nine-across-ukraine-as-fire-breaks-out-at-religious-landmark-in-kyiv-12541713

Foss · 3:23PM

Flatlander said:

Foss said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Foss said:

rcs1000 said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:
Lol how are they ever going to block VPNs
And SSH? And Tor? And the various obfuscation methods people use to mask internet traffic?
They can't even keep up with the pirate streaming sites.
I’m on several private trackers. I think this is what the government thinks is the “dark web”, apparently they mean “not available via Google”
Given Google Search's degeneration since the late 00s that's increasingly everything.
If you search once and get what you want, you see one set of adverts (assuming you aren't blocking them).

If you have to search several times and click over the page to find what you want, you see many sets of adverts...

Google broke itself when Facebook drove Google's management insane and they decided that they really wanted to be a Social Media platform. Everything else has been fallout from that.

MarqueeMark · 3:24PM

Stuartinromford said:
On the header, Beautiful Chart Man points out:

A lot of theories circulating about this, but the primary driver of the shift is a lot of Conservative and Reform UK voters seemingly going "The Labour Party? But I hate the Labour Party". There is a smaller increase in unfavourable among Lab/LD/Grn voters, but little change in favourable with them.

https://bsky.app/profile/dylandifford.bsky.social/post/3mofzjbomys2y

It puts Burnham in a similar, though slightly more positive*, position to Starmer on the eve of the 2024 election (which was 36% vs 54%), which isn't great, but is nowhere near Starmer today. Not a fresh start, but a reset to July 2024.

*with the biggest difference being among Green voters.

I wonder how short Burnham's honeymoon will be?

I doubt he will have even make cutting the cake.

"Cutting, I see. Bloody Tory..."

Richard_Tyndall · 3:24PM

Foss said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Foss said:

rcs1000 said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:
Lol how are they ever going to block VPNs
And SSH? And Tor? And the various obfuscation methods people use to mask internet traffic?
They can't even keep up with the pirate streaming sites.
I’m on several private trackers. I think this is what the government thinks is the “dark web”, apparently they mean “not available via Google”
Given Google Search's degeneration since the late 00s that's increasingly everything.

Indeed. It seems to have got far worse since the advent of AI as well. I find it extremely dificult to find anything reelevant for even simple searches.

Malmesbury · 3:24PM

Apparently, a Russian warship in/near the channel has fired a warning shot. At a yacht that came near it.

Battle of Dogger Bank II ?

Big_G_NorthWales · 3:25PM

Battlebus said:
Pic of SKS or AB on Friday morning.

Even both of them ?

williamglenn · 3:26PM

Big_G_NorthWales said:
Sky

Russian warship fires warning shots at a yacht in the channel

What's that about defence spending ?

https://news.sky.com/liveblog-webview/ukraine-war-latest-russian-strikes-kill-nine-across-ukraine-as-fire-breaks-out-at-religious-landmark-in-kyiv-12541713

Starmer might get his Falklands moment and see off Andy Burnham.

Sweeney74 · 3:27PM

Flatlander said:

Sweeney74 said:

Monkeys said:

Sweeney74 said:

Taz said:

rcs1000 said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:
Lol how are they ever going to block VPNs
And SSH? And Tor? And the various obfuscation methods people use to mask internet traffic?
I take it young people can do this because it’s double Dutch to this old codger.
Most can't now.
Depending on how the ban is enforced many will learn how relatively quickly.
But that's not an argument agains a ban. We don’t abandon age restrictions on alcohol because some teenagers can get served, or speed limits because some drivers speed.
The kids will go on something worse than social media, like 4chan. The VPN ban idea is the response of a nervous wreck overreaching with the illusion of control. They need therapy, or drugs in the first instance.
We’re discussing a proposal to restrict access to social media for children, not mandatory chip implantation and a Ministry of Truth.

The harms of social media on minors are now well documented and widely accepted. Doing nothing is not a neutral position. It is a conscious choice to allow those harms to continue.

Instead of disappearing down the conspiracy rabbit hole, or smugly declaring that “da yoof” will bypass the controls with VPNs and disappear into the dark web, perhaps we could have a grown-up discussion about what might actually help.

No policy is ever 100% effective. We don’t abandon age restrictions on alcohol because some teenagers get served, or speed limits because some drivers speed.

The question isn’t whether a determined minority can circumvent the rules. It’s whether the lives of the much larger compliant majority are improved.

If you’ve got better ideas, let’s hear them. If not, “they’ll get around it anyway” isn’t much of a policy.
The issue is that the plan cannot be implemented without restricting access for everyone, not just children.

If you do want to do this, we need a proper double-blind government Digital ID for everyone, where
a) The site receiving the verification only receives a flag that you are over 18
b) The site providing the verification doesn't know what you are looking at.

I believe it works like this in France.

Don't pretend that this is just a small change for da kids.

And if TikTok and the like are publishing stuff that shouldn't be seen, then deal with TikTok first, before restricting the populace.

I think people are overcomplicating this.

Restrict access to social media apps through age-verified Apple and Google accounts. Add parental controls and website restrictions on phones and tablets, with access denied by default rather than granted by default.

Is it perfect? No.

Will some determined teenagers find workarounds? Of course.

But the goal isn’t perfection. The goal is friction.

Public policy doesn’t have to be unbreakable to be effective. It just has to change the default behaviour for the majority.

At the moment social media is effectively omnipresent and frictionless. Making access conditional rather than automatic would be a significant change even if a minority still circumvent it.

Big_G_NorthWales · 3:28PM

Listened to Al Carns resignation speech and he was very impressive and took aim at the persecution of our soldiers from the Irish troubles

I would just say that if Starmer refuses to go, a fight between Starmer, Burnham, Streeting and Carns would be quite an event

turbotubbs · 3:29PM

williamglenn said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:
Sky

Russian warship fires warning shots at a yacht in the channel

What's that about defence spending ?

https://news.sky.com/liveblog-webview/ukraine-war-latest-russian-strikes-kill-nine-across-ukraine-as-fire-breaks-out-at-religious-landmark-in-kyiv-12541713
Starmer might get his Falklands moment and see off Andy Burnham.

What with? We might need Lymington Yacht Club to break out the shotguns and go for it 14th Century style.

BatteryCorrectHorse · 3:29PM

For age verification, Apple already invented a solution.

You do age verification securely on device. That passes a token to every app and website.

They really should just use that.

Sweeney74 · 3:29PM

Public policy doesn’t just regulate behaviour. It helps shape social norms.

We saw it with smoking. We saw it with drink-driving. We saw it with seatbelts.

The objective isn’t merely to stop every under-16 accessing social media. The objective is to shift the default expectation away from “every child should have unrestricted access to algorithm-driven engagement platforms from the moment they’re handed a smartphone”.

If, in ten years’ time, parents feel less pressure to put their children on social media and children feel less pressure to be on it because “everyone else is”, then the policy may have succeeded even if some teenagers are still finding workarounds.

PoodleInASlipstream · 3:29PM

MikeL said:
I asked yesterday how the YouTube ban would work when you don't need to log in or have any type of account to watch a YouTube video. Nobody responded - presumably as the Govt did nothing to make the position clear.

After a fair bit of googling, it appears the ban is actually going to be on under 16s having a YouTube account.

So under 16s will still be able to watch a YouTube video. But under 16s won't be able to subscribe, comment, like etc.

Is this in line with everyone's understanding?

It does seem the the only viable way. Of course, this will mean every single person with a YouTube account will have to do some kind of age verification. I hope the fact I have had a Google account for 15 years and pay for YouTube premium with a credit card will count as an age check, but probably not.

algarkirk · 3:30PM

Big_G_NorthWales said:
Sky

Russian warship fires warning shots at a yacht in the channel

What's that about defence spending ?

https://news.sky.com/liveblog-webview/ukraine-war-latest-russian-strikes-kill-nine-across-ukraine-as-fire-breaks-out-at-religious-landmark-in-kyiv-12541713

This is Matt from back in March but worth a rerun:

https://x.com/MattCartoonist/status/2029608254834159867

Taz · 3:30PM

Big_G_NorthWales said:
Listened to Al Carns resignation speech and he was very impressive and took aim at the persecution of our soldiers from the Irish troubles

I would just say that if Starmer refuses to go, a fight between Starmer, Burnham, Streeting and Carns would be quite an event

‘Persecution’

I dunno. I’d have less of an issue with this had the provos and the so called loyalists got a free pass.

As they did, if I’m wrong someone can correct me, then the Brit occupiers should too.

Taz · 3:31PM

BatteryCorrectHorse said:
For age verification, Apple already invented a solution.

You do age verification securely on device. That passes a token to every app and website.

They really should just use that.

My credit card details are on my apple wallet. Surely that would be enough ?

Big_G_NorthWales · 3:31PM

turbotubbs said:

williamglenn said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:
Sky

Russian warship fires warning shots at a yacht in the channel

What's that about defence spending ?

https://news.sky.com/liveblog-webview/ukraine-war-latest-russian-strikes-kill-nine-across-ukraine-as-fire-breaks-out-at-religious-landmark-in-kyiv-12541713
Starmer might get his Falklands moment and see off Andy Burnham.
What with? We might need Lymington Yacht Club to break out the shotguns and go for it 14th Century style.

Well they should have plenty of starting guns !!!!

ydoethur · 3:32PM

Malmesbury said:
Apparently, a Russian warship in/near the channel has fired a warning shot. At a yacht that came near it.

Battle of Dogger Bank II ?

The Russian Admiral concerned had probably had a few too many and was only appointed because he was shagging the right people or procuring the preferred sort of, ahem, person for Putin.

Bit like the Admiral in Dogger Bank, really.

If Nicholas was the real Tsar and Stalin the Red Tsar, what's Putin? The bareback rider Tsar?

Richard_Tyndall · 3:32PM

Sweeney74 said:

Monkeys said:

Sweeney74 said:

Taz said:

rcs1000 said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:
Lol how are they ever going to block VPNs
And SSH? And Tor? And the various obfuscation methods people use to mask internet traffic?
I take it young people can do this because it’s double Dutch to this old codger.
Most can't now.
Depending on how the ban is enforced many will learn how relatively quickly.
But that's not an argument agains a ban. We don’t abandon age restrictions on alcohol because some teenagers can get served, or speed limits because some drivers speed.
The kids will go on something worse than social media, like 4chan. The VPN ban idea is the response of a nervous wreck overreaching with the illusion of control. They need therapy, or drugs in the first instance.
We’re discussing a proposal to restrict access to social media for children, not mandatory chip implantation and a Ministry of Truth.

The harms of social media on minors are now well documented and widely accepted. Doing nothing is not a neutral position. It is a conscious choice to allow those harms to continue.

Instead of disappearing down the conspiracy rabbit hole, or smugly declaring that “da yoof” will bypass the controls with VPNs and disappear into the dark web, perhaps we could have a grown-up discussion about what might actually help.

No policy is ever 100% effective. We don’t abandon age restrictions on alcohol because some teenagers get served, or speed limits because some drivers speed.

The question isn’t whether a determined minority can circumvent the rules. It’s whether the lives of the much larger compliant majority are improved.

If you’ve got better ideas, let’s hear them. If not, “they’ll get around it anyway” isn’t much of a policy.

Again you have fallen into the trap of 'We must do something. This is something. We must do it'.

There is no requirement, when identifying a stupid policy that will not work, to come up with a better policy that will. A stupid policy is stupid all on its own. And this is a stupid policy.

If you are so concerned about this then you come up with a better policy. Don't just expect us to accept this because it is 'something', irrespective of how stupid it is.

Cookie · 3:33PM

If you think you're having a bad day at work... I've just read a story in the Metro - and I'm not linking to it, because it's basically a video of someone's death - woman doing a bungee jump in Brazil - I have never done a bungee jump so I don't now how normal this is, but the approach of the employees is: three of them hold woman above their respective heads, her in superman pose; they totter forwards, throw the woman over the edge, then look down at the floor at the rope bungee rope they have forgotten to attach to her.

Malmesbury · 3:34PM

ydoethur said:

Malmesbury said:
Apparently, a Russian warship in/near the channel has fired a warning shot. At a yacht that came near it.

Battle of Dogger Bank II ?
The Russian Admiral concerned had probably had a few too many and was only appointed because he was shagging the right people or procuring the preferred sort of, ahem, person for Putin.

Bit like the Admiral in Dogger Bank, really.

If Nicholas was the real Tsar and Stalin the Red Tsar, what's Putin? The bareback rider Tsar?

You are, of course, referring to this

turbotubbs · 3:34PM

Taz said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:
Listened to Al Carns resignation speech and he was very impressive and took aim at the persecution of our soldiers from the Irish troubles

I would just say that if Starmer refuses to go, a fight between Starmer, Burnham, Streeting and Carns would be quite an event
‘Persecution’

I dunno. I’d have less of an issue with this had the provos and the so called loyalists got a free pass.

As they did, if I’m wrong someone can correct me, then the Brit occupiers should too.

Totally. You cannot let what the terrorists did be swept under the carpet but go after the troops.

Truth and reconciliation. Lots of people died or were harmed in lots of different ways. I am still horrified by the fate of one young squaddie who was taken by the IRA and murdered. For what? Really? What was any of it worth?

slade · 3:34PM

As well as the 3 parliamentary by-elections this week we have a host of local elections. First we have countermanded elections where one of the candidates in May died. These are Bradford(3 LD), Bury (1 Lab), Essex (1 LD), and Hillingdon (2 Con). Then there are normal by-elections where councillors have died, resigned, or have been elected to a higher office. So we have Conway ( 2 different wards Ref elected as Con), Wrexham ( 3 elected in different wards as PC), Swansea ( 1 Lab and 1 Ref elected as Con in different wards), Essex (Ref), Lewisham (Green), New Forest (Con), and Rochford (Ref), But wait till we get to next week!

Nigelb · 3:35PM

rottenborough said:

Nigelb said:
Interesting snippet from Carns's resignation speech.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2026/jun/16/andy-burnham-makerfield-labour-reform-keir-starmer-uk-politics-latest-news-updates?page=with:block-6a314d468f084ec9fe8281f5#block-6a314d468f084ec9fe8281f5
..This was an implicit criticism of Healey, who (unlike Carns) had been working on the Dip for months.

Explaining why he quit, Carns said:

Firstly, because I no longer believe the defence investment plan was preparing for the wars we are most likely to fight.
The character of warfare is changing at an exceptional speed.
In Ukraine a navy without a ship has destroyed a navy. A drone costing thousands candestroy a tank costing millions. A drone can now strike 2000km into Russia at a fraction of the cost of a fighter jet.
It is not either/or. It’s an equitable mix of high-end sophistication coupled with low-end mass. That’s the balance we must seek.
But from my view, the defence investment plan did not strike that balance for various reasons..

Rather remarkably, Carns was not shown the plan until the week before last.

Meantime, the MoD keeps churning out the bullshit. At pace.
(Times)
..A defence ministry spokeswoman said: “The DIP [defence investment plan] will deliver the best kit into the hands of our armed forces. The defence secretary is working through the detail now, so the plan meets their needs. Work on the plan is continuing at pace, and it will be published ahead of the Nato Summit.”..
The DIP is turning into the HS2 of policy documents. Should be ready by, say, 2036.

It's insane that it's taken a year to draw up, and the armed forces minister was shown it (and by implication properly consulted) only two weeks ago.

And now it's back to square one.

And they're still crapping on about "at pace".

rottenborough · 3:35PM

BatteryCorrectHorse said:
For age verification, Apple already invented a solution.

You do age verification securely on device. That passes a token to every app and website.

They really should just use that.

But the app in question then has to ask Apple OS for the age flag (which is 18+ rather than 16+ incidentally). So this would be about forcing the app, say Facebook, to do that. Do they do it already? 18 is different to 16 obvs.

Sweeney74 · 3:35PM

Richard_Tyndall said:

Sweeney74 said:

Monkeys said:

Sweeney74 said:

Taz said:

rcs1000 said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:
Lol how are they ever going to block VPNs
And SSH? And Tor? And the various obfuscation methods people use to mask internet traffic?
I take it young people can do this because it’s double Dutch to this old codger.
Most can't now.
Depending on how the ban is enforced many will learn how relatively quickly.
But that's not an argument agains a ban. We don’t abandon age restrictions on alcohol because some teenagers can get served, or speed limits because some drivers speed.
The kids will go on something worse than social media, like 4chan. The VPN ban idea is the response of a nervous wreck overreaching with the illusion of control. They need therapy, or drugs in the first instance.
We’re discussing a proposal to restrict access to social media for children, not mandatory chip implantation and a Ministry of Truth.

The harms of social media on minors are now well documented and widely accepted. Doing nothing is not a neutral position. It is a conscious choice to allow those harms to continue.

Instead of disappearing down the conspiracy rabbit hole, or smugly declaring that “da yoof” will bypass the controls with VPNs and disappear into the dark web, perhaps we could have a grown-up discussion about what might actually help.

No policy is ever 100% effective. We don’t abandon age restrictions on alcohol because some teenagers get served, or speed limits because some drivers speed.

The question isn’t whether a determined minority can circumvent the rules. It’s whether the lives of the much larger compliant majority are improved.

If you’ve got better ideas, let’s hear them. If not, “they’ll get around it anyway” isn’t much of a policy.
Again you have fallen into the trap of 'We must do something. This is something. We must do it'.

There is no requirement, when identifying a stupid policy that will not work, to come up with a better policy that will. A stupid policy is stupid all on its own. And this is a stupid policy.

If you are so concerned about this then you come up with a better policy. Don't just expect us to accept this because it is 'something', irrespective of how stupid it is.

That’s fair as a matter of logic.

“We must do something. This is something. Therefore we must do it” is indeed a poor argument.

But that’s not actually the argument being made.

The argument is:

1. Social media appears to be causing measurable harm to many children.
2. Doing nothing is a policy choice, not a neutral position.
3. Restricting access may reduce those harms.
4. Therefore the proposal should be judged on whether it is likely to reduce those harms, not on whether it is perfect.

You say it is a stupid policy that won’t work. Fine. Explain why.

“Some people will circumvent it” isn’t enough, because people circumvent every restriction ever devised.

The relevant question is whether it changes behaviour for the majority.

If your position is that the policy won’t materially reduce social media use among children, that’s a serious argument. If your position is merely that it won’t eliminate it entirely, then that’s setting a standard that almost no public policy could ever meet.

ydoethur · 3:35PM

Malmesbury said:

ydoethur said:

Malmesbury said:
Apparently, a Russian warship in/near the channel has fired a warning shot. At a yacht that came near it.

Battle of Dogger Bank II ?
The Russian Admiral concerned had probably had a few too many and was only appointed because he was shagging the right people or procuring the preferred sort of, ahem, person for Putin.

Bit like the Admiral in Dogger Bank, really.

If Nicholas was the real Tsar and Stalin the Red Tsar, what's Putin? The bareback rider Tsar?
You are, of course, referring to this

That's the one.

Although didn't TSE suggest he should be King of Narnia on that basis?

rottenborough · 3:36PM

Big_G_NorthWales said:
Listened to Al Carns resignation speech and he was very impressive and took aim at the persecution of our soldiers from the Irish troubles

I would just say that if Starmer refuses to go, a fight between Starmer, Burnham, Streeting and Carns would be quite an event

Does Carns have 81 nominees?

I am not convinced.

bondegezou · 3:36PM

PoodleInASlipstream said:

MikeL said:
I asked yesterday how the YouTube ban would work when you don't need to log in or have any type of account to watch a YouTube video. Nobody responded - presumably as the Govt did nothing to make the position clear.

After a fair bit of googling, it appears the ban is actually going to be on under 16s having a YouTube account.

So under 16s will still be able to watch a YouTube video. But under 16s won't be able to subscribe, comment, like etc.

Is this in line with everyone's understanding?
It does seem the the only viable way. Of course, this will mean every single person with a YouTube account will have to do some kind of age verification. I hope the fact I have had a Google account for 15 years and pay for YouTube premium with a credit card will count as an age check, but probably not.

Having an account for a long time and possession of a credit card have been used as appropriate proxies for age before.

Malmesbury · 3:37PM

ydoethur said:

Malmesbury said:

ydoethur said:

Malmesbury said:
Apparently, a Russian warship in/near the channel has fired a warning shot. At a yacht that came near it.

Battle of Dogger Bank II ?
The Russian Admiral concerned had probably had a few too many and was only appointed because he was shagging the right people or procuring the preferred sort of, ahem, person for Putin.

Bit like the Admiral in Dogger Bank, really.

If Nicholas was the real Tsar and Stalin the Red Tsar, what's Putin? The bareback rider Tsar?
You are, of course, referring to this

That's the one.

Although didn't TSE suggest he should be King of Narnia on that basis?

New lead for the Village People?

rottenborough · 3:37PM

MikeL said:
I asked yesterday how the YouTube ban would work when you don't need to log in or have any type of account to watch a YouTube video. Nobody responded - presumably as the Govt did nothing to make the position clear.

After a fair bit of googling, it appears the ban is actually going to be on under 16s having a YouTube account.

So under 16s will still be able to watch a YouTube video. But under 16s won't be able to subscribe, comment, like etc.

Is this in line with everyone's understanding?

None of it will happen imho, so i wouldn't worry too much.

This will be quietly dropped once Burnham or Streeting has done their initial reshuffle.

bondegezou · 3:37PM

turbotubbs said:

Taz said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:
Listened to Al Carns resignation speech and he was very impressive and took aim at the persecution of our soldiers from the Irish troubles

I would just say that if Starmer refuses to go, a fight between Starmer, Burnham, Streeting and Carns would be quite an event
‘Persecution’

I dunno. I’d have less of an issue with this had the provos and the so called loyalists got a free pass.

As they did, if I’m wrong someone can correct me, then the Brit occupiers should too.
Totally. You cannot let what the terrorists did be swept under the carpet but go after the troops.

Truth and reconciliation. Lots of people died or were harmed in lots of different ways. I am still horrified by the fate of one young squaddie who was taken by the IRA and murdered. For what? Really? What was any of it worth?

If you have evidence of a crime committed by a terrorist that has not been previously prosecuted, it will be investigated and (if the evidence is there) prosecuted today. There has not been a blanket pardon or anything.

Fairliered · 3:38PM

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Battlebus said:
Pic of SKS or AB on Friday morning.

Even both of them ?

At least one of them will be on the ropes on Friday.

Cookie · 3:38PM

Big_G_NorthWales said:
Listened to Al Carns resignation speech and he was very impressive and took aim at the persecution of our soldiers from the Irish troubles

I would just say that if Starmer refuses to go, a fight between Starmer, Burnham, Streeting and Carns would be quite an event

I think I have a speculative tenner somewhere on Carns.
He's quite good, but I think his biggest selling point is that he's a blank slate whom people don't yet know he's not what they don't want him to be.
I think there's a world in which he becomes PM, but the only one I can see is AB not winning at Makerfield and the PLP rolling the dice anyway.

Nigelb · 3:39PM

BatteryCorrectHorse said:
Andy Burnham considers bringing back one David M.

I think he may run a very interesting government.

Worth it just for the lolz when he announces he is making Milliband Chancellor.

Milliband D.

turbotubbs · 3:39PM

bondegezou said:

turbotubbs said:

Taz said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:
Listened to Al Carns resignation speech and he was very impressive and took aim at the persecution of our soldiers from the Irish troubles

I would just say that if Starmer refuses to go, a fight between Starmer, Burnham, Streeting and Carns would be quite an event
‘Persecution’

I dunno. I’d have less of an issue with this had the provos and the so called loyalists got a free pass.

As they did, if I’m wrong someone can correct me, then the Brit occupiers should too.
Totally. You cannot let what the terrorists did be swept under the carpet but go after the troops.

Truth and reconciliation. Lots of people died or were harmed in lots of different ways. I am still horrified by the fate of one young squaddie who was taken by the IRA and murdered. For what? Really? What was any of it worth?
If you have evidence of a crime committed by a terrorist that has not been previously prosecuted, it will be investigated and (if the evidence is there) prosecuted today. There has not been a blanket pardon or anything.

De facto pardon though, surely?

williamglenn · 3:40PM

turbotubbs said:

williamglenn said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:
Sky

Russian warship fires warning shots at a yacht in the channel

What's that about defence spending ?

https://news.sky.com/liveblog-webview/ukraine-war-latest-russian-strikes-kill-nine-across-ukraine-as-fire-breaks-out-at-religious-landmark-in-kyiv-12541713
Starmer might get his Falklands moment and see off Andy Burnham.
What with? We might need Lymington Yacht Club to break out the shotguns and go for it 14th Century style.

He'll just have to handle it personally and challenge Putin to a judo match.

Nigelb · 3:42PM

Big_G_NorthWales said:
Listened to Al Carns resignation speech and he was very impressive and took aim at the persecution of our soldiers from the Irish troubles

I would just say that if Starmer refuses to go, a fight between Starmer, Burnham, Streeting and Carns would be quite an event

I'm a very long way from convinced that Carns is yet PM material. But at least he's displaying an awareness of some of the MoD bullshit that the rest of the defence ministers seem captured by.

BatteryCorrectHorse · 3:45PM

Taz said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:
For age verification, Apple already invented a solution.

You do age verification securely on device. That passes a token to every app and website.

They really should just use that.
My credit card details are on my apple wallet. Surely that would be enough ?

They do it via Face ID.

But it’s on the Secure Enclave so it never leaves the phone. It’s actually incredibly secure.

Sweeney74 · 3:54PM

apt

LostPassword · 3:55PM

williamglenn said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:
Sky

Russian warship fires warning shots at a yacht in the channel

What's that about defence spending ?

https://news.sky.com/liveblog-webview/ukraine-war-latest-russian-strikes-kill-nine-across-ukraine-as-fire-breaks-out-at-religious-landmark-in-kyiv-12541713
Starmer might get his Falklands moment and see off Andy Burnham.

Unlikely. We're more likely to find out how unpopular a PM can get when they fail to meet the challenge of a Falklands moment.

Foss · 3:56PM

LostPassword said:

williamglenn said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:
Sky

Russian warship fires warning shots at a yacht in the channel

What's that about defence spending ?

https://news.sky.com/liveblog-webview/ukraine-war-latest-russian-strikes-kill-nine-across-ukraine-as-fire-breaks-out-at-religious-landmark-in-kyiv-12541713
Starmer might get his Falklands moment and see off Andy Burnham.
Unlikely. We're more likely to find out how unpopular a PM can get when they fail to meet the challenge of a Falklands moment.

And the Falklands, while British (Overseas Territories), are a very long way away. The Channel really isn't.

This is the polling Andy Burnham has to change – politicalbetting.com

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