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As many union members support Reform as Labour – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 13,169
edited May 31 in General
As many union members support Reform as Labour – politicalbetting.com

NEW: Polling of public sector union members in @thetimes Westminster voting intention, change shown on 2024REF 28 (+12)LAB 28 (-20)CON 13 (-3)GRN 11 (+6)LDEM 8 (-2)14th-19th May 2026, representative sample of 1,002 public sector union membershttps://t.co/dK69yzUl7C

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Comments

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,428
    edited May 31
    First unlike Arsenal?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 103,790
    Even with this sampling the LDs cannot break 10 consistently.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,860
    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 103,790

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    Not the leadership though, being the ex-Tory greatest hits.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 41,579
    That's an absolute shocker for Labour. Once again this is a direct Labour to Reform swing and all of the cope coming from lefties that it's actually some convoluted Labour/Lib Dem to Tory and then Tory to Reform is proving hilariously wrong again.

    This is the same phenomenon as people who voted for Obama twice turning around and voting for Trump. The Dems ignored these people in 2020 and look at how it turned out for them. Labour are going to be left fighting for third place against the Greens if they can't figure out how to get on the side of working people and fix the jobs crisis they created.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 103,790
    MaxPB said:

    That's an absolute shocker for Labour. Once again this is a direct Labour to Reform swing and all of the cope coming from lefties that it's actually some convoluted Labour/Lib Dem to Tory and then Tory to Reform is proving hilariously wrong again.

    This is the same phenomenon as people who voted for Obama twice turning around and voting for Trump. The Dems ignored these people in 2020 and look at how it turned out for them. Labour are going to be left fighting for third place against the Greens if they can't figure out how to get on the side of working people and fix the jobs crisis they created.

    The plan - Andy will save us!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 41,579
    kle4 said:

    MaxPB said:

    That's an absolute shocker for Labour. Once again this is a direct Labour to Reform swing and all of the cope coming from lefties that it's actually some convoluted Labour/Lib Dem to Tory and then Tory to Reform is proving hilariously wrong again.

    This is the same phenomenon as people who voted for Obama twice turning around and voting for Trump. The Dems ignored these people in 2020 and look at how it turned out for them. Labour are going to be left fighting for third place against the Greens if they can't figure out how to get on the side of working people and fix the jobs crisis they created.

    The plan - Andy will save us!
    That's not a good plan. He's going to turn out to be Starmer with a northern accent.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 43,511
    @RpsAgainstTrump

    Daily Mail: PM Benjamin Netanyahu is reportedly raging in private as Trump moves closer to a deal with Iran.

    According to Al-Monitor, Netanyahu views the potential agreement as a disaster and blames Trump for it. The report says he’s so frustrated that he’s now longing for the days when Obama was in the White House.

    “This time, the prime minister’s hands are tied. He is completely paralyzed and knows that he will not be able to do anything, even if the agreement signed between the United States and Iran remains the disaster he now defines it as”, one of Netanyahu’s close associates told the outlet.

    https://x.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/2061091038760931338?s=20
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 27,934
    kle4 said:

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    Not the leadership though, being the ex-Tory greatest hits.
    kle4 said:

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    Not the leadership though, being the ex-Tory greatest hits.
    Its going to be an absolute car crash if they gain power. A cabinet of Nigel, the ex Tories and perhaps a handful of arrogant business types. A mix of MPs that will include economic left, Singapore-on-Thames, ethno-nationalist blocks plus a batch of narcissists. A manifesto that won't be deliverable.

    Chief Whip is going to be a job to avoid.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,126
    That is a surprise and a shocker for Labour
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 103,790
    Scott_xP said:

    @RpsAgainstTrump

    Daily Mail: PM Benjamin Netanyahu is reportedly raging in private as Trump moves closer to a deal with Iran.

    According to Al-Monitor, Netanyahu views the potential agreement as a disaster and blames Trump for it. The report says he’s so frustrated that he’s now longing for the days when Obama was in the White House.

    “This time, the prime minister’s hands are tied. He is completely paralyzed and knows that he will not be able to do anything, even if the agreement signed between the United States and Iran remains the disaster he now defines it as”, one of Netanyahu’s close associates told the outlet.

    https://x.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/2061091038760931338?s=20

    Trump wants to close the chapter on this and declare another outstanding success, he cannot do that if no deal (or agreement to seek a deal at least) is in place.

    Well, he has done that but even his base, whilst supportive of him still, must be confused when he declares total victory every week, so he wants something more permanent. Benjy not as bright as he thinks if he did not see that coming.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 59,834
    Burnham may struggle if polls like this are accurate.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 103,790

    Burnham may struggle if polls like this are accurate.

    Whilst policy does not seem to be the biggest cause of decline, I suspect he will need to make some eye catching immediate changes to provide a signal to those who have been sitting things out or protest supporting others, and if that can gain an immediate bump of notable proportions then the feelgood factor may then provide something to build on.

    Some longstanding supporters who leave are gone for good, but as the recovery from 2019 showed there are plenty of others who can quickly be brought/bought back.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,789
    edited May 31
    Scott_xP said:

    @RpsAgainstTrump

    Daily Mail: PM Benjamin Netanyahu is reportedly raging in private as Trump moves closer to a deal with Iran.

    According to Al-Monitor, Netanyahu views the potential agreement as a disaster and blames Trump for it. The report says he’s so frustrated that he’s now longing for the days when Obama was in the White House.

    “This time, the prime minister’s hands are tied. He is completely paralyzed and knows that he will not be able to do anything, even if the agreement signed between the United States and Iran remains the disaster he now defines it as”, one of Netanyahu’s close associates told the outlet.

    https://x.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/2061091038760931338?s=20

    Confronting Iran without a clear plan for Hormuz was folly.

    Bit daft to think Bibi put him up to it though and ultimately it will be the countries of the region that have to bear the consequences of the deal (as Trump walks off into the sunset) primarily the wrong kind of Muslims in Arab countries.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 25,447
    The trouble is that Labour activists don't like the people that the party is supposed to represent.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 27,934

    Burnham may struggle if polls like this are accurate.

    Everyone struggles in a near 5 way dead heat.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,860

    kle4 said:

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    Not the leadership though, being the ex-Tory greatest hits.
    kle4 said:

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    Not the leadership though, being the ex-Tory greatest hits.
    Its going to be an absolute car crash if they gain power. A cabinet of Nigel, the ex Tories and perhaps a handful of arrogant business types. A mix of MPs that will include economic left, Singapore-on-Thames, ethno-nationalist blocks plus a batch of narcissists. A manifesto that won't be deliverable.

    Chief Whip is going to be a job to avoid.
    If only there were a convenient label, ideally between three and five letters long, to describe a party that is both nationalist and socialist.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 27,934

    kle4 said:

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    Not the leadership though, being the ex-Tory greatest hits.
    kle4 said:

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    Not the leadership though, being the ex-Tory greatest hits.
    Its going to be an absolute car crash if they gain power. A cabinet of Nigel, the ex Tories and perhaps a handful of arrogant business types. A mix of MPs that will include economic left, Singapore-on-Thames, ethno-nationalist blocks plus a batch of narcissists. A manifesto that won't be deliverable.

    Chief Whip is going to be a job to avoid.
    If only there were a convenient label, ideally between three and five letters long, to describe a party that is both nationalist and socialist.
    Refuk?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,126
    The critique of Labour's WFA, welfare and green policies is striking, and demands to cut welfare and open north sea oil is not going away
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 32,559
    Scott_xP said:

    @RpsAgainstTrump

    Daily Mail: PM Benjamin Netanyahu is reportedly raging in private as Trump moves closer to a deal with Iran.

    According to Al-Monitor, Netanyahu views the potential agreement as a disaster and blames Trump for it. The report says he’s so frustrated that he’s now longing for the days when Obama was in the White House.

    “This time, the prime minister’s hands are tied. He is completely paralyzed and knows that he will not be able to do anything, even if the agreement signed between the United States and Iran remains the disaster he now defines it as”, one of Netanyahu’s close associates told the outlet.

    https://x.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/2061091038760931338?s=20

    And a tiny violin plays wistfully into the void.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 103,790

    kle4 said:

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    Not the leadership though, being the ex-Tory greatest hits.
    kle4 said:

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    Not the leadership though, being the ex-Tory greatest hits.
    Chief Whip is going to be a job to avoid.
    I suspect tolerance for the party politicians speaking their minds will be in shorter supply once they are in power. Be a team player and all that.

    The big unknown is how many of the, in this scenario, 300 or so Reform MPs elected will be the kind of people who really don't like being told what to do, and will Farage and co be surprised that those candidates were not just talking the talk on being blunt talkers and independent minded, as seems to be part of the brand.

    US politics has often seemed very individualistic compared to ours, because of the power of states, separation of powers etc, yet in 10 years one man has taken over one side completely and turned them all completely supine, so it can be done.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 136,842
    Given Reform have a big lead now with working class voters it isn't surprising they also lead with trade union members too.

    Though Reform can still only tie Labour with union members unlike their clear lead over Labour in national polls overall

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,351
    dixiedean said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @RpsAgainstTrump

    Daily Mail: PM Benjamin Netanyahu is reportedly raging in private as Trump moves closer to a deal with Iran.

    According to Al-Monitor, Netanyahu views the potential agreement as a disaster and blames Trump for it. The report says he’s so frustrated that he’s now longing for the days when Obama was in the White House.

    “This time, the prime minister’s hands are tied. He is completely paralyzed and knows that he will not be able to do anything, even if the agreement signed between the United States and Iran remains the disaster he now defines it as”, one of Netanyahu’s close associates told the outlet.

    https://x.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/2061091038760931338?s=20

    And a tiny violin plays wistfully into the void.
    He could always wait 24 hours and the next mood swing in Trump's mind and find it is all back on again and we are in for Total War.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,351

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    If you are far left economically then voting for Tice, Yosef and co is a bloody stretch.

    They want Dubai on Thames with flat rate, very low tax and fuck all else.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,351
    HYUFD said:

    Given Reform have a big lead now with working class voters it isn't surprising they also lead with trade union members too.

    Though Reform can still only tie Labour with union members unlike their clear lead over Labour in national polls overall

    Looks like the con is working.

    If you think Danny Kruger and Richard Tice are going to help the working class then I have a dozen bridges for sale.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 5,442
    Labour lost touch with working people long ago. Took them for granted.
  • StarryStarry Posts: 198

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    But the average Reform cabinet is far-right. They can't satisfy Red Reform by closing down government jobs and cutting welfare.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 27,934
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    Not the leadership though, being the ex-Tory greatest hits.
    kle4 said:

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    Not the leadership though, being the ex-Tory greatest hits.
    Chief Whip is going to be a job to avoid.
    I suspect tolerance for the party politicians speaking their minds will be in shorter supply once they are in power. Be a team player and all that.

    The big unknown is how many of the, in this scenario, 300 or so Reform MPs elected will be the kind of people who really don't like being told what to do, and will Farage and co be surprised that those candidates were not just talking the talk on being blunt talkers and independent minded, as seems to be part of the brand.

    US politics has often seemed very individualistic compared to ours, because of the power of states, separation of powers etc, yet in 10 years one man has taken over one side completely and turned them all completely supine, so it can be done.
    Farage is more Bozo than Trump. He doesn't seem to have the vindictiveness and certainly not the persistence of Trump. US campaign finance and their primary system also a significant part that is missing here, although plenty of patronage available to a PM.
  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,493

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    If you are far left economically then voting for Tice, Yosef and co is a bloody stretch.

    They want Dubai on Thames with flat rate, very low tax and fuck all else.
    Pretty clear reason as to why a Reform's coalition will quickly fall apart once in power. Can't please both WWC who want lefty economic policies and ex-Tories living in the Shires who want spending cuts and lower taxes.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 136,842
    edited May 31

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    That isn't really true, 51% of Reform voters think the government taxes too much and spends too much on public services and 60% think welfare benefits are too generous.

    Even if not as high as the 89% who think migrants coming to the United Kingdom across the English Channel should all be immediately removed from the United Kingdom and prevented from ever returning. The 77% who back restoration of the death penalty for some crimes, the 78% who think multiculturalism has made Britain worse and the 69% who think people in Britain should not be legally able to change their gender

    https://yougov.com/en-gb/articles/49887-what-do-reform-uk-voters-believe
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 41,579

    The trouble is that Labour activists don't like the people that the party is supposed to represent.

    The reaction on here when I suggested that Laboir policy advisers in Westminster would be getting their ideas in a trendy wine bar in Hackney was pretty telling tbh. I think Labour is a London dominated party that can't see beyond the activist base of 25-40 year old mostly white women graduates. It's why they fear the Greens so much more than Reform and any suggestion that actually most of the country thinks immigration has gone too far is met with scorn.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 59,834

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    If you are far left economically then voting for Tice, Yosef and co is a bloody stretch.

    They want Dubai on Thames with flat rate, very low tax and fuck all else.
    Pretty clear reason as to why a Reform's coalition will quickly fall apart once in power. Can't please both WWC who want lefty economic policies and ex-Tories living in the Shires who want spending cuts and lower taxes.
    Mass deportation is arguably a lefty economic policy that directly benefits them.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 103,790

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    Not the leadership though, being the ex-Tory greatest hits.
    kle4 said:

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    Not the leadership though, being the ex-Tory greatest hits.
    Chief Whip is going to be a job to avoid.
    I suspect tolerance for the party politicians speaking their minds will be in shorter supply once they are in power. Be a team player and all that.

    The big unknown is how many of the, in this scenario, 300 or so Reform MPs elected will be the kind of people who really don't like being told what to do, and will Farage and co be surprised that those candidates were not just talking the talk on being blunt talkers and independent minded, as seems to be part of the brand.

    US politics has often seemed very individualistic compared to ours, because of the power of states, separation of powers etc, yet in 10 years one man has taken over one side completely and turned them all completely supine, so it can be done.
    Farage is more Bozo than Trump.
    Hence the need for Elon to boost Restore?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,789
    Small curiosity - what is the venn diagram/overlap between Arsenal/Blair haters?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 23,124

    kle4 said:

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    Not the leadership though, being the ex-Tory greatest hits.
    kle4 said:

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    Not the leadership though, being the ex-Tory greatest hits.
    Its going to be an absolute car crash if they gain power. A cabinet of Nigel, the ex Tories and perhaps a handful of arrogant business types. A mix of MPs that will include economic left, Singapore-on-Thames, ethno-nationalist blocks plus a batch of narcissists. A manifesto that won't be deliverable.

    Chief Whip is going to be a job to avoid.
    Only bested by someone economically far left and socially far right.

    Someone to avoid at all costs
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 3,131
    HYUFD said:

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    That isn't really true, 51% of Reform voters think the government taxes too much and spends too much on public services and 60% think welfare benefits are too generous.

    Even if not as high as the 89% who think migrants coming to the United Kingdom across the English Channel should all be immediately removed from the United Kingdom and prevented from ever returning. The 77% who back restoration of the death penalty for some crimes, the 78% who think multiculturalism has made Britain worse and the 69% who think people in Britain should not be legally able to change their gender

    https://yougov.com/en-gb/articles/49887-what-do-reform-uk-voters-believe
    Unbelievable that the Labour Party aren't trying to appeal to them with views like that, what are they thinking?
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,945

    kle4 said:

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    Not the leadership though, being the ex-Tory greatest hits.
    kle4 said:

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    Not the leadership though, being the ex-Tory greatest hits.
    Its going to be an absolute car crash if they gain power. A cabinet of Nigel, the ex Tories and perhaps a handful of arrogant business types. A mix of MPs that will include economic left, Singapore-on-Thames, ethno-nationalist blocks plus a batch of narcissists. A manifesto that won't be deliverable.

    Chief Whip is going to be a job to avoid.
    Famous last words, but it can't be more of a car crash than the current lot, who seem hell bent on establishing just how much ruin there is in a country.

    Frankly, improving on the previous Tory administration isn't a much high bar to pass either, that was pretty diabolical.

    They all agree on pretty much zero immigration, so that should be sorted fairly quickly. It will be tax and spending decisions that have the potential to be a bit more fun.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 32,559
    MaxPB said:

    The trouble is that Labour activists don't like the people that the party is supposed to represent.

    The reaction on here when I suggested that Laboir policy advisers in Westminster would be getting their ideas in a trendy wine bar in Hackney was pretty telling tbh. I think Labour is a London dominated party that can't see beyond the activist base of 25-40 year old mostly white women graduates. It's why they fear the Greens so much more than Reform and any suggestion that actually most of the country thinks immigration has gone too far is met with scorn.
    It's pretty fair.
    It's why we need Andy Burnham.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 59,834
    Burnham has a new logo and slogan: Change Labour. Keep the faith.

    https://x.com/patrickkmaguire/status/2061197091993420259
  • Labour will bounce back
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 39,735

    The critique of Labour's WFA, welfare and green policies is striking, and demands to cut welfare and open north sea oil is not going away

    Aren't we all rooting for Rob the Plumber at Makerfield? A working class grafter plays a posho Cambridge University grifter. Huzzah for salt of the Earth racists and misogynists.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 91,949

    Burnham has a new logo and slogan: Change Labour. Keep the faith.

    https://x.com/patrickkmaguire/status/2061197091993420259

    Is he not for us anymore?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 91,949
    Larger private schools begin to close after VAT raids. Since the introduction of a 20 per cent charge on school fees, more mid-sized independent schools than usual have begun to buckle, analysis shows

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/education/article/private-schools-collapse-vat-tax-m0tsnrk77
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 91,949
    edited May 31
    Left-wing YouTube pundit Cenk Uygur banned from entering UK
    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/left-wing-youtube-cenk-uygur-banned-uk-z87xfv89b

    Mahmood is getting very ban happy. I disagree with him on most things, I find his style of shouting over anybody who wants to debate him, but is he really a danger to public that needs to be banned? He has had a very long established and large YouTube network, it is basically a cheerleader for a Bernie Sanders person as POTUS.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 56,828

    Burnham has a new logo and slogan: Change Labour. Keep the faith.

    https://x.com/patrickkmaguire/status/2061197091993420259

    A reference to Northern Soul and the Wigan Casino for those unaware of the iconography.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 28,781

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    If you are far left economically then voting for Tice, Yosef and co is a bloody stretch.

    They want Dubai on Thames with flat rate, very low tax and fuck all else.
    Pretty clear reason as to why a Reform's coalition will quickly fall apart once in power. Can't please both WWC who want lefty economic policies and ex-Tories living in the Shires who want spending cuts and lower taxes.
    Mass deportation is arguably a lefty economic policy that directly benefits them.
    No, it is not.

    Lump of labour is a fallacy.

    That applies just as much to you as it does anyone claiming we need immigration.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 59,834

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    If you are far left economically then voting for Tice, Yosef and co is a bloody stretch.

    They want Dubai on Thames with flat rate, very low tax and fuck all else.
    Pretty clear reason as to why a Reform's coalition will quickly fall apart once in power. Can't please both WWC who want lefty economic policies and ex-Tories living in the Shires who want spending cuts and lower taxes.
    Mass deportation is arguably a lefty economic policy that directly benefits them.
    No, it is not.

    Lump of labour is a fallacy.

    That applies just as much to you as it does anyone claiming we need immigration.
    The lump of labour fallacy is irrelevant. Changes in supply still affect prices in the short term even if there isn't a fixed level of demand.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 56,828
    HYUFD said:

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    That isn't really true, 51% of Reform voters think the government taxes too much and spends too much on public services and 60% think welfare benefits are too generous.

    Even if not as high as the 89% who think migrants coming to the United Kingdom across the English Channel should all be immediately removed from the United Kingdom and prevented from ever returning. The 77% who back restoration of the death penalty for some crimes, the 78% who think multiculturalism has made Britain worse and the 69% who think people in Britain should not be legally able to change their gender

    https://yougov.com/en-gb/articles/49887-what-do-reform-uk-voters-believe
    There is a certain belief that it is welfare for others that is the problem, which doesn't match very well with the major grievance in the header being the means testing of WFA.

    Union members may also not be very keen on Reform's "Great Repeal Bill" which promises to gut rights of workers, and repeal of the Equalities Act. Mind you when even Reform candidates don't know this, why should we expect the voters to know?

    https://bsky.app/profile/bestforbritain.org/post/3mn3cxog2rg2q
  • gettingbettergettingbetter Posts: 638
    The Colombian election is not going well.
    With most of the votes already counted (polls closed 1.5 hours ago) the far right candidate De La Espriella is ahead. With 44% to the Ledt's Cepeda with 41%. The other right wing candidate got only 7%. Adding the two rught candidates together they are 10% ahead.
    There will be a second round in 2 weeks. Last time in 2022 the left candudate improved his vote by 10% in the second round. However it seems unlikely that can be repeated as the right wing independent candidate was old and corrupt - by 2024 he had been sentenced to house imprisonment and then died.
    The betting suggests about 80% chance the right will win and that seems correct. De La Espriella makes Nigel Farage look like a centrist.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,945

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    If you are far left economically then voting for Tice, Yosef and co is a bloody stretch.

    They want Dubai on Thames with flat rate, very low tax and fuck all else.
    Pretty clear reason as to why a Reform's coalition will quickly fall apart once in power. Can't please both WWC who want lefty economic policies and ex-Tories living in the Shires who want spending cuts and lower taxes.
    Mass deportation is arguably a lefty economic policy that directly benefits them.
    No, it is not.

    Lump of labour is a fallacy.

    That applies just as much to you as it does anyone claiming we need immigration.
    The lump of labour fallacy is irrelevant. Changes in supply still affect prices in the short term even if there isn't a fixed level of demand.

    I'm not on board the mass deportation train. I'd like to see the population decreasing, but to do that, I think it would be sufficient to just make it virtually impossible to come to the UK as a foreign national, and let natural wastage do the rest.

    However if we did do mass deportations, it's not just the labour market that's impacted. For example, if we were to deport a couple of million people that might actually be enough to put a meaningful dent into house prices and rents. That's much more in the interest of tenants and people near the bottom of the housing ladder than the well healed property owning classes.
  • Glasgow and Edinburgh airports are running out of fuel:

    https://theaviationhub.co.uk/glasgow-edinburgh-airport-experiencing-fuel-supply-issues/

    AFAIK both of these airports are supplied by road tankers, not the pipeline system used for major airports in England, so any supply disruption will hit them first.

    One hopes this is not the canary in a coalmine.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 28,781

    The Colombian election is not going well.
    With most of the votes already counted (polls closed 1.5 hours ago) the far right candidate De La Espriella is ahead. With 44% to the Ledt's Cepeda with 41%. The other right wing candidate got only 7%. Adding the two rught candidates together they are 10% ahead.
    There will be a second round in 2 weeks. Last time in 2022 the left candudate improved his vote by 10% in the second round. However it seems unlikely that can be repeated as the right wing independent candidate was old and corrupt - by 2024 he had been sentenced to house imprisonment and then died.
    The betting suggests about 80% chance the right will win and that seems correct. De La Espriella makes Nigel Farage look like a centrist.

    That leaves 8% unaccounted for.

    It is wrong to add multiple parties together but especially odd to do so without accounting for others.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 59,748

    Labour will bounce back

    "WE CANNOT BE KILLED!"
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 13,439
    System said:

    As many union members support Reform as Labour – politicalbetting.com

    NEW: Polling of public sector union members in @thetimes Westminster voting intention, change shown on 2024REF 28 (+12)LAB 28 (-20)CON 13 (-3)GRN 11 (+6)LDEM 8 (-2)14th-19th May 2026, representative sample of 1,002 public sector union membershttps://t.co/dK69yzUl7C

    Read the full story here

    Do the union political donations split in any way close to a similar proportion?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 59,834
    A big upset in the first round of the Columbian elections, with the 'far right' candidate coming first with 44%.

    https://x.com/business/status/2061207129097130090

    Conservative attorney Abelardo de la Espriella surged to a surprise early lead in Colombia’s presidential vote, outperforming expectations in the closely watched election.
  • gettingbettergettingbetter Posts: 638

    The Colombian election is not going well.
    With most of the votes already counted (polls closed 1.5 hours ago) the far right candidate De La Espriella is ahead. With 44% to the Ledt's Cepeda with 41%. The other right wing candidate got only 7%. Adding the two rught candidates together they are 10% ahead.
    There will be a second round in 2 weeks. Last time in 2022 the left candudate improved his vote by 10% in the second round. However it seems unlikely that can be repeated as the right wing independent candidate was old and corrupt - by 2024 he had been sentenced to house imprisonment and then died.
    The betting suggests about 80% chance the right will win and that seems correct. De La Espriella makes Nigel Farage look like a centrist.

    That leaves 8% unaccounted for.

    It is wrong to add multiple parties together but especially odd to do so without accounting for others.
    Well that's a fair point. But the other right candidate is also an Uribista of similar views except the misogyny.bit. Of the 8% unaccounted 4% is a centrist whose votes might split evenly, 2% minor candidates and 2% blank or spoilled.
    Its really hard to see Cepeda winning, The head of the electoral commission is an Uribista and not allowing aa many witnesses as last time.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 91,949
    I’ve been banned from the UK. I tried to get on a flight to London to attend SXSW London and give a speech at Oxford. I’ve been banned for criticizing Israel. Are we free anymore? This is oppression of Western citizens by our own governments on behalf of a different country!

    https://x.com/cenkuygur/status/2061205610327408773?s=20
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 9,224
    edited May 31

    I’ve been banned from the UK. I tried to get on a flight to London to attend SXSW London and give a speech at Oxford. I’ve been banned for criticizing Israel. Are we free anymore? This is oppression of Western citizens by our own governments on behalf of a different country!

    https://x.com/cenkuygur/status/2061205610327408773?s=20

    Labour in Authoritarianism shock.

    He's a odd duck, though. Conservative in his youth. Also uncle of Hasan Piker, whose presence in the country is also banned.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 32,559

    I’ve been banned from the UK. I tried to get on a flight to London to attend SXSW London and give a speech at Oxford. I’ve been banned for criticizing Israel. Are we free anymore? This is oppression of Western citizens by our own governments on behalf of a different country!

    https://x.com/cenkuygur/status/2061205610327408773?s=20

    Gosh.
    I thought you meant you.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 91,949
    edited May 31
    carnforth said:

    I’ve been banned from the UK. I tried to get on a flight to London to attend SXSW London and give a speech at Oxford. I’ve been banned for criticizing Israel. Are we free anymore? This is oppression of Western citizens by our own governments on behalf of a different country!

    https://x.com/cenkuygur/status/2061205610327408773?s=20

    Labour in Authoritarianism shock.

    He's a odd duck, though. Conservative in his youth. Also uncle of Hasan Piker, whose presence in the country is also banned.
    He isn't my cup of tea, but as far as I know he stays within the lines* compared Hasan Piker who spews some really nasty stuff, but the whole banning people, I would hope it is reserved for people who terrorists, terrorist recruitors etc. He is coming to rant, I mean debtae, at the Oxford Union, I would feel sorry for the students as he isn't a good debater.

    * He must do as he he has stayed on YouTube for donkeys years including ability to make money and live stream. They aren't as tolerant as Twitch or Kick particularly if you get big, you don't even need to say anything bad on YouTube itself to at get demonetarised, saying racist stuff outside of YouTube can still get YouTube to decide you can't have get ad revenue.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 91,949
    edited May 31
    dixiedean said:

    I’ve been banned from the UK. I tried to get on a flight to London to attend SXSW London and give a speech at Oxford. I’ve been banned for criticizing Israel. Are we free anymore? This is oppression of Western citizens by our own governments on behalf of a different country!

    https://x.com/cenkuygur/status/2061205610327408773?s=20

    Gosh.
    I thought you meant you.
    Well I hope they let me back in when I return from the US in a few weeks....I am surprised the US immigration haven't asked a lot more questions about my extended trip to China.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 103,790
    dixiedean said:

    I’ve been banned from the UK. I tried to get on a flight to London to attend SXSW London and give a speech at Oxford. I’ve been banned for criticizing Israel. Are we free anymore? This is oppression of Western citizens by our own governments on behalf of a different country!

    https://x.com/cenkuygur/status/2061205610327408773?s=20

    Gosh.
    I thought you meant you.
    That's stage 2.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 8,876
    I appear to have made friends with a mouse. He and I have been at odds for a couple of weeks as he insists on passing my sight line whilst I am sitting in the garden at night.he is gradually understanding that I won’t kill him brutally and is getting more bold. He is very sweet, reminds me of one of my old dogs, obviously smaller, but good luck to him, he goes about his business and isn’t a pest. So far. I have named him potato after one of my niece’s favourite cartoon characters.

    I’m sure there is something about politics and life there somewhere. Or not.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 9,224
    boulay said:

    I appear to have made friends with a mouse. He and I have been at odds for a couple of weeks as he insists on passing my sight line whilst I am sitting in the garden at night.he is gradually understanding that I won’t kill him brutally and is getting more bold. He is very sweet, reminds me of one of my old dogs, obviously smaller, but good luck to him, he goes about his business and isn’t a pest. So far. I have named him potato after one of my niece’s favourite cartoon characters.

    I’m sure there is something about politics and life there somewhere. Or not.

    Ten percent of me is wondering if it isn't a smallish rat...
  • boulayboulay Posts: 8,876
    carnforth said:

    boulay said:

    I appear to have made friends with a mouse. He and I have been at odds for a couple of weeks as he insists on passing my sight line whilst I am sitting in the garden at night.he is gradually understanding that I won’t kill him brutally and is getting more bold. He is very sweet, reminds me of one of my old dogs, obviously smaller, but good luck to him, he goes about his business and isn’t a pest. So far. I have named him potato after one of my niece’s favourite cartoon characters.

    I’m sure there is something about politics and life there somewhere. Or not.

    Ten percent of me is wondering if it isn't a smallish rat...
    No absolutely a mouse.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 91,949
    edited May 31
    No rewards for failure...

    Bibby Stockholm barge operator wins £247m contracts after scandal
    CTM, which ran the notorious asylum vessel, overcharged British customers by almost £120 million but Whitehall is still giving it work
    https://www.thetimes.com/business/companies-markets/article/bibby-stockholm-barge-operator-wins-247m-contracts-after-scandal-79t3rm57w
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 40,148
    Good idea?

    "Tories to stop criminals spending benefits on alcohol
    Pre-loaded ‘ration cards’ will prevent those with convictions linked to drink, gambling or drugs from funding their habits" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2026/05/31/tories-to-stop-criminals-spending-benefits-on-alcohol/
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 91,949
    edited June 1
    Andy_JS said:

    Good idea?

    "Tories to stop criminals spending benefits on alcohol
    Pre-loaded ‘ration cards’ will prevent those with convictions linked to drink, gambling or drugs from funding their habits" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2026/05/31/tories-to-stop-criminals-spending-benefits-on-alcohol/

    A couple of problems, a) they will just shoplift the booze (until we get shoplifting under control everything nothing is going to work) and b) you just get a black market in people selling their ration card for cash.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 40,148

    Andy_JS said:

    Good idea?

    "Tories to stop criminals spending benefits on alcohol
    Pre-loaded ‘ration cards’ will prevent those with convictions linked to drink, gambling or drugs from funding their habits" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2026/05/31/tories-to-stop-criminals-spending-benefits-on-alcohol/

    A couple of problems, a) they will just shoplift the booze (until we get shoplifting under control everything nothing is going to work) and b) you just get a black market in people selling their ration card for cash.
    I like the idea in theory, but I agree with you that there would be practical problems.
  • DumbosaurusDumbosaurus Posts: 1,064
    edited June 1
    Andy_JS said:

    Good idea?

    "Tories to stop criminals spending benefits on alcohol
    Pre-loaded ‘ration cards’ will prevent those with convictions linked to drink, gambling or drugs from funding their habits" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2026/05/31/tories-to-stop-criminals-spending-benefits-on-alcohol/

    Nope. Ultimately, money's fungible. Need to stop the addiction(s) otherwise this is pointless.

    Also a slippery slope to spending money on "approved" things which is just not a sensible way of dealing with charity/benefits.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 2,185
    Andy_JS said:

    Good idea?

    "Tories to stop criminals spending benefits on alcohol
    Pre-loaded ‘ration cards’ will prevent those with convictions linked to drink, gambling or drugs from funding their habits" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2026/05/31/tories-to-stop-criminals-spending-benefits-on-alcohol/

    Pointless
    Puerile
    Propoganda
    Loony
    Unworkable
    Desperate!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,489

    Andy_JS said:

    Good idea?

    "Tories to stop criminals spending benefits on alcohol
    Pre-loaded ‘ration cards’ will prevent those with convictions linked to drink, gambling or drugs from funding their habits" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2026/05/31/tories-to-stop-criminals-spending-benefits-on-alcohol/

    A couple of problems, a) they will just shoplift the booze (until we get shoplifting under control everything nothing is going to work) and b) you just get a black market in people selling their ration card for cash.
    In the US, there are SNAP benefits (formerly known as food stamps), with exactly the same goal: only allow poor people to buy necessities.

    And there is -in consequence- a large black market in SNAP benefits.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 55,424
    I don’t think this poll is nearly as exceptional as some are suggesting. There have been times in the past where a good chunk of ‘working class’ people have not voted for the left, and during times where early incarnations of the far right have got some traction, it’s been working class areas like Barking & Dagenham from where they drew most support.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,673

    carnforth said:

    I’ve been banned from the UK. I tried to get on a flight to London to attend SXSW London and give a speech at Oxford. I’ve been banned for criticizing Israel. Are we free anymore? This is oppression of Western citizens by our own governments on behalf of a different country!

    https://x.com/cenkuygur/status/2061205610327408773?s=20

    Labour in Authoritarianism shock.

    He's a odd duck, though. Conservative in his youth. Also uncle of Hasan Piker, whose presence in the country is also banned.
    He isn't my cup of tea, but as far as I know he stays within the lines* compared Hasan Piker who spews some really nasty stuff, but the whole banning people, I would hope it is reserved for people who terrorists, terrorist recruitors etc. He is coming to rant, I mean debtae, at the Oxford Union, I would feel sorry for the students as he isn't a good debater.

    * He must do as he he has stayed on YouTube for donkeys years including ability to make money and live stream. They aren't as tolerant as Twitch or Kick particularly if you get big, you don't even need to say anything bad on YouTube itself to at get demonetarised, saying racist stuff outside of YouTube can still get YouTube to decide you can't have get ad revenue.
    Cenk is more thoughtful than most of the independent US commentariat at the moment, and as you say he’s been doing the Young Turks show for at least a decade now. He’s generally worth listening to, even if you disagree with most of what he has to say.

    Not a good look for the UK gov to ban him though, although I would doubt that a reason was actually put to him as he describes it. Let’s not be banning people from attending what are very mainstream conferences and debates. It’s not as if he’s turning up to support Hamas, even if he is often critical of Israel. He’s not one of the crazy young kids like his nephew, and generally knows where to draw the line.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,475
    edited June 1
    FPT:

    There's a Restore Britain supporter who 'went viral' on social media recently doing a monologue whilst campaigning in Makerfield. Youtube recommended me a video of him being interviewed by Pete McCormack. My impression is of someone very clever, very well-read, and who absolutely 'has a point' about progressivism, but who I feel, 10 odd minutes in, is likely to be a fascist. I could be wrong, and if you can make your point, all arguments can be aired in the public sphere. But I don't want Britain to go fascist. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. People telling me we have to give up freedom and make unacceptable compromises because there is a 'demographic emergency' can bugger off as much as those trying to do the same thing because there's a 'climate emergency'. They are both manipulative.

    We need sensible right wing Government in the interests of the British people. We need fair and just laws. 'Peace, easy taxes, and tolerable administration of justice'. If we get that, the natural tendency of the country will be to grow and thrive.

    We analysed him at the time.

    He is Frank Wright, and his website is here if you want a look:

    https://www.frankwrighter.com/

    He's somewhere around a British version of JD Vance but more thoughtful, so perhaps Leonard Leo, but I think with more of GK Chesterton in his thinking. For a British version, I'd suggest comparisons with the old fashioned Roman Catholic Right (meaning the first half of 20C up to perhaps the 1950s). That is an unusual angle and can give strange bedfellows on some questions - but I think we are getting used to that now in this country.

    So from my point of view I would expect him for example to align with me on Eugenics (Chesterton was very strongly opposed, as I am) but disagree with me on abortion (Wright is an author on Lifesite News, whilst I am fairly liberal on the issue).
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 3,238
    FPT
    theProle said:

    Taz said:

    Before the 24 election Chef Tom Kerridge signed an open letter endorsing a prospective Labour govt.

    Fast forward nearly two years and it’s worlds smallest violin time. He got what he wanted. Surely he can live with it.

    ‘ Kerridge, whose site, The Hand & Flowers, was the first gastropub in the UK to be awarded two Michelin stars, said most of his businesses were ‘sat still or losing money’ as his margins have been ‘completely eroded’ by Government hikes.’

    https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-15858811/Top-chefs-call-VAT-cut-hospitality-industry-battles-survival.html

    Not sure any of us - even those who didn't vote for Starmer - were aware of just how disastrous his Government was going to be for small and medium businesses. If the Tories had had a crystal ball and had predicted this level of vindictive incompetence we would all have accused them of jumping the shark.
    Quite. I thought Starmer would be fairly poor, based mainly on his instincts over covid (playing politics by demanding ever more lockdown when it clearly wasn't in the national interest), but even I had a surge of optimism when they promised no increases Income tax or NI, and thought they might not be as disastrous as Labour governments usually are, and I also thought they might be vaguely competent.

    Turns out my initial instinct (there is virtually no know form of government worse for the country than a Labour government) was right first time.
    Would this also apply to a future Reform government given their solid support within Union ranks?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,475
    edited June 1
    theProle said:

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    If you are far left economically then voting for Tice, Yosef and co is a bloody stretch.

    They want Dubai on Thames with flat rate, very low tax and fuck all else.
    Pretty clear reason as to why a Reform's coalition will quickly fall apart once in power. Can't please both WWC who want lefty economic policies and ex-Tories living in the Shires who want spending cuts and lower taxes.
    Mass deportation is arguably a lefty economic policy that directly benefits them.
    No, it is not.

    Lump of labour is a fallacy.

    That applies just as much to you as it does anyone claiming we need immigration.
    The lump of labour fallacy is irrelevant. Changes in supply still affect prices in the short term even if there isn't a fixed level of demand.

    I'm not on board the mass deportation train. I'd like to see the population decreasing, but to do that, I think it would be sufficient to just make it virtually impossible to come to the UK as a foreign national, and let natural wastage do the rest.

    However if we did do mass deportations, it's not just the labour market that's impacted. For example, if we were to deport a couple of million people that might actually be enough to put a meaningful dent into house prices and rents. That's much more in the interest of tenants and people near the bottom of the housing ladder than the well healed property owning classes.
    We already have a meaningful dent in house prices, especially in London - the median price is down 20% in real terms since the 2021 peak, which itself had hardly shifted from the 2017 peak.

    One current interesting phenomenon is that very few have noticed.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 36,323
    Sandpit said:

    carnforth said:

    I’ve been banned from the UK. I tried to get on a flight to London to attend SXSW London and give a speech at Oxford. I’ve been banned for criticizing Israel. Are we free anymore? This is oppression of Western citizens by our own governments on behalf of a different country!

    https://x.com/cenkuygur/status/2061205610327408773?s=20

    Labour in Authoritarianism shock.

    He's a odd duck, though. Conservative in his youth. Also uncle of Hasan Piker, whose presence in the country is also banned.
    He isn't my cup of tea, but as far as I know he stays within the lines* compared Hasan Piker who spews some really nasty stuff, but the whole banning people, I would hope it is reserved for people who terrorists, terrorist recruitors etc. He is coming to rant, I mean debtae, at the Oxford Union, I would feel sorry for the students as he isn't a good debater.

    * He must do as he he has stayed on YouTube for donkeys years including ability to make money and live stream. They aren't as tolerant as Twitch or Kick particularly if you get big, you don't even need to say anything bad on YouTube itself to at get demonetarised, saying racist stuff outside of YouTube can still get YouTube to decide you can't have get ad revenue.
    Cenk is more thoughtful than most of the independent US commentariat at the moment, and as you say he’s been doing the Young Turks show for at least a decade now. He’s generally worth listening to, even if you disagree with most of what he has to say.

    Not a good look for the UK gov to ban him though, although I would doubt that a reason was actually put to him as he describes it. Let’s not be banning people from attending what are very mainstream conferences and debates. It’s not as if he’s turning up to support Hamas, even if he is often critical of Israel. He’s not one of the crazy young kids like his nephew, and generally knows where to draw the line.
    Perhaps the Home Office mixed up uncle and nephew. No doubt their files are linked.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 36,323
    edited June 1

    Andy_JS said:

    Good idea?

    "Tories to stop criminals spending benefits on alcohol
    Pre-loaded ‘ration cards’ will prevent those with convictions linked to drink, gambling or drugs from funding their habits" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2026/05/31/tories-to-stop-criminals-spending-benefits-on-alcohol/

    Nope. Ultimately, money's fungible. Need to stop the addiction(s) otherwise this is pointless.

    Also a slippery slope to spending money on "approved" things which is just not a sensible way of dealing with charity/benefits.
    This is just an extension of the pre-loaded ‘Aspen cards’ given to asylum seekers. Older PBers will remember last year's panic about asylum seekers using them to drink and gamble. For instance:-

    Investigation launched after thousands of payments from taxpayer-funded asylum seeker cards spent on gambling
    Over the last year, up to 6,537 people used the government-issued cards at least once in gambling establishments

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/investigation-payments-asylum-seeker-cards-spent-gambling-b1239850.html
  • FishingFishing Posts: 6,355
    edited June 1

    Andy_JS said:

    Good idea?

    "Tories to stop criminals spending benefits on alcohol
    Pre-loaded ‘ration cards’ will prevent those with convictions linked to drink, gambling or drugs from funding their habits" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2026/05/31/tories-to-stop-criminals-spending-benefits-on-alcohol/

    Nope. Ultimately, money's fungible. Need to stop the addiction(s) otherwise this is pointless.

    Also a slippery slope to spending money on "approved" things which is just not a sensible way of dealing with charity/benefits.
    I'm not sure that's true.

    Nobody is more aware of the laziness and corruption of the lower classes than me, but empirically, the proposal could show positive results.

    In America, government assistance through the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP/aka food stamps) is doled out in roughly the way that the Conservatives are proposing, and studies generally show low, usually very low, levels of abuse, at any rate for a government program.

    For example, this study from the University of Chicago Becker Friedman Institute found that cash assistance (like SSI) caused a 20-30% increase in emergency department visits for drug and alcohol use. By contrast, SNAP benefits, which are doled out electronically did not result in any increase in substance-related hospital visits.

    https://bfi.uchicago.edu/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/Paternalistic-Social-Assistance-Evidence-and-Implications-from-Cash-vs.-In-Kind-Transfers.pdf

    And again a National Center for Biotechnology Information study claimed that rather than funding drug or alcohol habits, the expansion of SNAP and the removal of drug-related eligibility bans actually correlate with reduced rates of substance use disorders and improved access to addiction treatments.

    https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7779750/

    Finally, according to the Brookings Institution, the majority of SNAP dollars are spent on staple goods, with the overall spending patterns of recipients closely mirroring those of non-recipients.

    So rather than making assumptions about the habits of the great unwashed, it's generally better to look at what actually happens.

    And the evidence is that this is a policy that could conceivably work, depending on how it's implemented.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,475
    Sandpit said:

    carnforth said:

    I’ve been banned from the UK. I tried to get on a flight to London to attend SXSW London and give a speech at Oxford. I’ve been banned for criticizing Israel. Are we free anymore? This is oppression of Western citizens by our own governments on behalf of a different country!

    https://x.com/cenkuygur/status/2061205610327408773?s=20

    Labour in Authoritarianism shock.

    He's a odd duck, though. Conservative in his youth. Also uncle of Hasan Piker, whose presence in the country is also banned.
    He isn't my cup of tea, but as far as I know he stays within the lines* compared Hasan Piker who spews some really nasty stuff, but the whole banning people, I would hope it is reserved for people who terrorists, terrorist recruitors etc. He is coming to rant, I mean debtae, at the Oxford Union, I would feel sorry for the students as he isn't a good debater.

    * He must do as he he has stayed on YouTube for donkeys years including ability to make money and live stream. They aren't as tolerant as Twitch or Kick particularly if you get big, you don't even need to say anything bad on YouTube itself to at get demonetarised, saying racist stuff outside of YouTube can still get YouTube to decide you can't have get ad revenue.
    Cenk is more thoughtful than most of the independent US commentariat at the moment, and as you say he’s been doing the Young Turks show for at least a decade now. He’s generally worth listening to, even if you disagree with most of what he has to say.

    Not a good look for the UK gov to ban him though, although I would doubt that a reason was actually put to him as he describes it. Let’s not be banning people from attending what are very mainstream conferences and debates. It’s not as if he’s turning up to support Hamas, even if he is often critical of Israel. He’s not one of the crazy young kids like his nephew, and generally knows where to draw the line.
    56 is a bit old for a "Young Turk".

    He reminds me of the "young Intellectuals" (on the Trumpist Right) of NatConSquad. They recently featured a 53 year old.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 20,916
    HYUFD said:

    Given Reform have a big lead now with working class voters it isn't surprising they also lead with trade union members too.

    Though Reform can still only tie Labour with union members unlike their clear lead over Labour in national polls overall

    I note the polling is of public sector trade union members, not all trade union members.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 3,238
    theProle said:

    kle4 said:

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    Not the leadership though, being the ex-Tory greatest hits.
    kle4 said:

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    Not the leadership though, being the ex-Tory greatest hits.
    Its going to be an absolute car crash if they gain power. A cabinet of Nigel, the ex Tories and perhaps a handful of arrogant business types. A mix of MPs that will include economic left, Singapore-on-Thames, ethno-nationalist blocks plus a batch of narcissists. A manifesto that won't be deliverable.

    Chief Whip is going to be a job to avoid.
    Famous last words, but it can't be more of a car crash than the current lot, who seem hell bent on establishing just how much ruin there is in a country.

    Frankly, improving on the previous Tory administration isn't a much high bar to pass either, that was pretty diabolical.

    They all agree on pretty much zero immigration, so that should be sorted fairly quickly. It will be tax and spending decisions that have the potential to be a bit more fun.
    Zero immigration! Unpack this one for me. Based on ONS data

    * Domestic population is in decline with more deaths than births
    * 500K of domestic population leaving each year.
    * With zero immigration (forecast at 700K) then population shrinks very quicky
    * Domestic population is both getting older and sicker
    * Potential tax base from Domestic population is shrinking fast to provide benefits (including pensions) for the old and the sick.

    The dead hand of demographics is a heavy influence in the background so how do you satisfy the average Reform/Restore voter?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 20,916
    theProle said:

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    If you are far left economically then voting for Tice, Yosef and co is a bloody stretch.

    They want Dubai on Thames with flat rate, very low tax and fuck all else.
    Pretty clear reason as to why a Reform's coalition will quickly fall apart once in power. Can't please both WWC who want lefty economic policies and ex-Tories living in the Shires who want spending cuts and lower taxes.
    Mass deportation is arguably a lefty economic policy that directly benefits them.
    No, it is not.

    Lump of labour is a fallacy.

    That applies just as much to you as it does anyone claiming we need immigration.
    The lump of labour fallacy is irrelevant. Changes in supply still affect prices in the short term even if there isn't a fixed level of demand.

    I'm not on board the mass deportation train. I'd like to see the population decreasing, but to do that, I think it would be sufficient to just make it virtually impossible to come to the UK as a foreign national, and let natural wastage do the rest.

    However if we did do mass deportations, it's not just the labour market that's impacted. For example, if we were to deport a couple of million people that might actually be enough to put a meaningful dent into house prices and rents. That's much more in the interest of tenants and people near the bottom of the housing ladder than the well healed property owning classes.
    Do you mean you would make it virtually impossible for a foreign national to stay in the UK long term? Making it virtually impossible for them to come would destroy the tourist industry, destroy the higher education sector and put a severe dampener on the Commonwealth Games in a few months’ time.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,673
    MattW said:

    Sandpit said:

    carnforth said:

    I’ve been banned from the UK. I tried to get on a flight to London to attend SXSW London and give a speech at Oxford. I’ve been banned for criticizing Israel. Are we free anymore? This is oppression of Western citizens by our own governments on behalf of a different country!

    https://x.com/cenkuygur/status/2061205610327408773?s=20

    Labour in Authoritarianism shock.

    He's a odd duck, though. Conservative in his youth. Also uncle of Hasan Piker, whose presence in the country is also banned.
    He isn't my cup of tea, but as far as I know he stays within the lines* compared Hasan Piker who spews some really nasty stuff, but the whole banning people, I would hope it is reserved for people who terrorists, terrorist recruitors etc. He is coming to rant, I mean debtae, at the Oxford Union, I would feel sorry for the students as he isn't a good debater.

    * He must do as he he has stayed on YouTube for donkeys years including ability to make money and live stream. They aren't as tolerant as Twitch or Kick particularly if you get big, you don't even need to say anything bad on YouTube itself to at get demonetarised, saying racist stuff outside of YouTube can still get YouTube to decide you can't have get ad revenue.
    Cenk is more thoughtful than most of the independent US commentariat at the moment, and as you say he’s been doing the Young Turks show for at least a decade now. He’s generally worth listening to, even if you disagree with most of what he has to say.

    Not a good look for the UK gov to ban him though, although I would doubt that a reason was actually put to him as he describes it. Let’s not be banning people from attending what are very mainstream conferences and debates. It’s not as if he’s turning up to support Hamas, even if he is often critical of Israel. He’s not one of the crazy young kids like his nephew, and generally knows where to draw the line.
    56 is a bit old for a "Young Turk".

    He reminds me of the "young Intellectuals" (on the Trumpist Right) of NatConSquad. They recently featured a 53 year old.
    To be fair they have been going since 2002, Cenk was one of the original founders. They’re so old they have a three-letter .com domain!
    https://tyt.com/about

    Cenk’s podcast co-host is much younger and better looking than he is, Ana Kasparian. Not as combative or ranty as Cenk, she’d probably be allowed in!
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,475
    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Sandpit said:

    carnforth said:

    I’ve been banned from the UK. I tried to get on a flight to London to attend SXSW London and give a speech at Oxford. I’ve been banned for criticizing Israel. Are we free anymore? This is oppression of Western citizens by our own governments on behalf of a different country!

    https://x.com/cenkuygur/status/2061205610327408773?s=20

    Labour in Authoritarianism shock.

    He's a odd duck, though. Conservative in his youth. Also uncle of Hasan Piker, whose presence in the country is also banned.
    He isn't my cup of tea, but as far as I know he stays within the lines* compared Hasan Piker who spews some really nasty stuff, but the whole banning people, I would hope it is reserved for people who terrorists, terrorist recruitors etc. He is coming to rant, I mean debtae, at the Oxford Union, I would feel sorry for the students as he isn't a good debater.

    * He must do as he he has stayed on YouTube for donkeys years including ability to make money and live stream. They aren't as tolerant as Twitch or Kick particularly if you get big, you don't even need to say anything bad on YouTube itself to at get demonetarised, saying racist stuff outside of YouTube can still get YouTube to decide you can't have get ad revenue.
    Cenk is more thoughtful than most of the independent US commentariat at the moment, and as you say he’s been doing the Young Turks show for at least a decade now. He’s generally worth listening to, even if you disagree with most of what he has to say.

    Not a good look for the UK gov to ban him though, although I would doubt that a reason was actually put to him as he describes it. Let’s not be banning people from attending what are very mainstream conferences and debates. It’s not as if he’s turning up to support Hamas, even if he is often critical of Israel. He’s not one of the crazy young kids like his nephew, and generally knows where to draw the line.
    56 is a bit old for a "Young Turk".

    He reminds me of the "young Intellectuals" (on the Trumpist Right) of NatConSquad. They recently featured a 53 year old.
    To be fair they have been going since 2002, Cenk was one of the original founders. They’re so old they have a three-letter .com domain!
    https://tyt.com/about

    Cenk’s podcast co-host is much younger and better looking than he is, Ana Kasparian. Not as combative or ranty as Cenk, she’d probably be allowed in!
    Pronounced "Tit" ?

    :smile:
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 28,781
    MattW said:

    theProle said:

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    If you are far left economically then voting for Tice, Yosef and co is a bloody stretch.

    They want Dubai on Thames with flat rate, very low tax and fuck all else.
    Pretty clear reason as to why a Reform's coalition will quickly fall apart once in power. Can't please both WWC who want lefty economic policies and ex-Tories living in the Shires who want spending cuts and lower taxes.
    Mass deportation is arguably a lefty economic policy that directly benefits them.
    No, it is not.

    Lump of labour is a fallacy.

    That applies just as much to you as it does anyone claiming we need immigration.
    The lump of labour fallacy is irrelevant. Changes in supply still affect prices in the short term even if there isn't a fixed level of demand.

    I'm not on board the mass deportation train. I'd like to see the population decreasing, but to do that, I think it would be sufficient to just make it virtually impossible to come to the UK as a foreign national, and let natural wastage do the rest.

    However if we did do mass deportations, it's not just the labour market that's impacted. For example, if we were to deport a couple of million people that might actually be enough to put a meaningful dent into house prices and rents. That's much more in the interest of tenants and people near the bottom of the housing ladder than the well healed property owning classes.
    We already have a meaningful dent in house prices, especially in London - the median price is down 20% in real terms since the 2021 peak, which itself had hardly shifted from the 2017 peak.

    One current interesting phenomenon is that very few have noticed.
    Because that is not meaningful.

    A peak to not quite so peak fall of 20% in real terms is pretty meaningless in fact.

    It would take an approximately 70% to 80% fall from here in real terms to get a meaningful reduction back to rational price to income ratios that existed in the 90s.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 36,323
    Fishing said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Good idea?

    "Tories to stop criminals spending benefits on alcohol
    Pre-loaded ‘ration cards’ will prevent those with convictions linked to drink, gambling or drugs from funding their habits" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2026/05/31/tories-to-stop-criminals-spending-benefits-on-alcohol/

    Nope. Ultimately, money's fungible. Need to stop the addiction(s) otherwise this is pointless.

    Also a slippery slope to spending money on "approved" things which is just not a sensible way of dealing with charity/benefits.
    I'm not sure that's true.

    Nobody is more aware of the laziness and corruption of the lower classes than me, but empirically, the proposal could show positive results.

    In America, government assistance through the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP/aka food stamps) is doled out in roughly the way that the Conservatives are proposing, and studies generally show low, usually very low, levels of abuse, at any rate for a government program.

    For example, this study from the University of Chicago Becker Friedman Institute found that cash assistance (like SSI) caused a 20-30% increase in emergency department visits for drug and alcohol use. By contrast, SNAP benefits, which are doled out electronically did not result in any increase in substance-related hospital visits.

    https://bfi.uchicago.edu/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/Paternalistic-Social-Assistance-Evidence-and-Implications-from-Cash-vs.-In-Kind-Transfers.pdf

    And again a National Center for Biotechnology Information study claimed that rather than funding drug or alcohol habits, the expansion of SNAP and the removal of drug-related eligibility bans actually correlate with reduced rates of substance use disorders and improved access to addiction treatments.

    https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7779750/

    Finally, according to the Brookings Institution, the majority of SNAP dollars are spent on staple goods, with the overall spending patterns of recipients closely mirroring those of non-recipients.

    So rather than making assumptions about the habits of the great unwashed, it's generally better to look at what actually happens.

    And the evidence is that this is a policy that could conceivably work, depending on how it's implemented.
    What's the baseline though? Presumably benefits recipients already spend roughly in line with their non-benefits peers.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 20,916

    MattW said:

    theProle said:

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    If you are far left economically then voting for Tice, Yosef and co is a bloody stretch.

    They want Dubai on Thames with flat rate, very low tax and fuck all else.
    Pretty clear reason as to why a Reform's coalition will quickly fall apart once in power. Can't please both WWC who want lefty economic policies and ex-Tories living in the Shires who want spending cuts and lower taxes.
    Mass deportation is arguably a lefty economic policy that directly benefits them.
    No, it is not.

    Lump of labour is a fallacy.

    That applies just as much to you as it does anyone claiming we need immigration.
    The lump of labour fallacy is irrelevant. Changes in supply still affect prices in the short term even if there isn't a fixed level of demand.

    I'm not on board the mass deportation train. I'd like to see the population decreasing, but to do that, I think it would be sufficient to just make it virtually impossible to come to the UK as a foreign national, and let natural wastage do the rest.

    However if we did do mass deportations, it's not just the labour market that's impacted. For example, if we were to deport a couple of million people that might actually be enough to put a meaningful dent into house prices and rents. That's much more in the interest of tenants and people near the bottom of the housing ladder than the well healed property owning classes.
    We already have a meaningful dent in house prices, especially in London - the median price is down 20% in real terms since the 2021 peak, which itself had hardly shifted from the 2017 peak.

    One current interesting phenomenon is that very few have noticed.
    Because that is not meaningful.

    A peak to not quite so peak fall of 20% in real terms is pretty meaningless in fact.

    It would take an approximately 70% to 80% fall from here in real terms to get a meaningful reduction back to rational price to income ratios that existed in the 90s.
    A 70-80% fall happening very quickly would also generate problems. A 20% fall is in the right direction and a quarter of the way there, while not being too sudden a change, so I don’t see why you’re being so sniffy about it.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 8,082
    Battlebus said:

    theProle said:

    kle4 said:

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    Not the leadership though, being the ex-Tory greatest hits.
    kle4 said:

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    Not the leadership though, being the ex-Tory greatest hits.
    Its going to be an absolute car crash if they gain power. A cabinet of Nigel, the ex Tories and perhaps a handful of arrogant business types. A mix of MPs that will include economic left, Singapore-on-Thames, ethno-nationalist blocks plus a batch of narcissists. A manifesto that won't be deliverable.

    Chief Whip is going to be a job to avoid.
    Famous last words, but it can't be more of a car crash than the current lot, who seem hell bent on establishing just how much ruin there is in a country.

    Frankly, improving on the previous Tory administration isn't a much high bar to pass either, that was pretty diabolical.

    They all agree on pretty much zero immigration, so that should be sorted fairly quickly. It will be tax and spending decisions that have the potential to be a bit more fun.
    Zero immigration! Unpack this one for me. Based on ONS data

    * Domestic population is in decline with more deaths than births
    * 500K of domestic population leaving each year.
    * With zero immigration (forecast at 700K) then population shrinks very quicky
    * Domestic population is both getting older and sicker
    * Potential tax base from Domestic population is shrinking fast to provide benefits (including pensions) for the old and the sick.

    The dead hand of demographics is a heavy influence in the background so how do you satisfy the average Reform/Restore voter?
    You don’t. You stop their benefits and pensions and tell them it’s the consequences of what they voted for.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 36,323
    ‘Ultra-strength’ cocaine hits UK streets as deaths surge to record high
    Exclusive: Cocaine deaths have hit record levels, with more than 1,000 people dying last year.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/cocaine-drugs-uk-deaths-police-south-america-b2975580.html

    Good news for coked-up benefits card users!!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 56,828

    HYUFD said:

    Given Reform have a big lead now with working class voters it isn't surprising they also lead with trade union members too.

    Though Reform can still only tie Labour with union members unlike their clear lead over Labour in national polls overall

    I note the polling is of public sector trade union members, not all trade union members.
    Very often we are told that the public sector is part of some left wing client state. This polling shows how untrue that is.
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,080

    theProle said:

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    If you are far left economically then voting for Tice, Yosef and co is a bloody stretch.

    They want Dubai on Thames with flat rate, very low tax and fuck all else.
    Pretty clear reason as to why a Reform's coalition will quickly fall apart once in power. Can't please both WWC who want lefty economic policies and ex-Tories living in the Shires who want spending cuts and lower taxes.
    Mass deportation is arguably a lefty economic policy that directly benefits them.
    No, it is not.

    Lump of labour is a fallacy.

    That applies just as much to you as it does anyone claiming we need immigration.
    The lump of labour fallacy is irrelevant. Changes in supply still affect prices in the short term even if there isn't a fixed level of demand.

    I'm not on board the mass deportation train. I'd like to see the population decreasing, but to do that, I think it would be sufficient to just make it virtually impossible to come to the UK as a foreign national, and let natural wastage do the rest.

    However if we did do mass deportations, it's not just the labour market that's impacted. For example, if we were to deport a couple of million people that might actually be enough to put a meaningful dent into house prices and rents. That's much more in the interest of tenants and people near the bottom of the housing ladder than the well healed property owning classes.
    Do you mean you would make it virtually impossible for a foreign national to stay in the UK long term? Making it virtually impossible for them to come would destroy the tourist industry, destroy the higher education sector and put a severe dampener on the Commonwealth Games in a few months’ time.
    Hmm, it’s not that bad a plan then.
  • eekeek Posts: 33,905

    Fishing said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Good idea?

    "Tories to stop criminals spending benefits on alcohol
    Pre-loaded ‘ration cards’ will prevent those with convictions linked to drink, gambling or drugs from funding their habits" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2026/05/31/tories-to-stop-criminals-spending-benefits-on-alcohol/

    Nope. Ultimately, money's fungible. Need to stop the addiction(s) otherwise this is pointless.

    Also a slippery slope to spending money on "approved" things which is just not a sensible way of dealing with charity/benefits.
    I'm not sure that's true.

    Nobody is more aware of the laziness and corruption of the lower classes than me, but empirically, the proposal could show positive results.

    In America, government assistance through the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP/aka food stamps) is doled out in roughly the way that the Conservatives are proposing, and studies generally show low, usually very low, levels of abuse, at any rate for a government program.

    For example, this study from the University of Chicago Becker Friedman Institute found that cash assistance (like SSI) caused a 20-30% increase in emergency department visits for drug and alcohol use. By contrast, SNAP benefits, which are doled out electronically did not result in any increase in substance-related hospital visits.

    https://bfi.uchicago.edu/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/Paternalistic-Social-Assistance-Evidence-and-Implications-from-Cash-vs.-In-Kind-Transfers.pdf

    And again a National Center for Biotechnology Information study claimed that rather than funding drug or alcohol habits, the expansion of SNAP and the removal of drug-related eligibility bans actually correlate with reduced rates of substance use disorders and improved access to addiction treatments.

    https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7779750/

    Finally, according to the Brookings Institution, the majority of SNAP dollars are spent on staple goods, with the overall spending patterns of recipients closely mirroring those of non-recipients.

    So rather than making assumptions about the habits of the great unwashed, it's generally better to look at what actually happens.

    And the evidence is that this is a policy that could conceivably work, depending on how it's implemented.
    What's the baseline though? Presumably benefits recipients already spend roughly in line with their non-benefits peers.
    So I get given a voucher worth £100 - that is usable by others.

    I would be sold for £80-90 and the alcoholic will use that to get their alcohol.

    I'm sorry but have these people ever lived in the real world
  • eekeek Posts: 33,905

    Fishing said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Good idea?

    "Tories to stop criminals spending benefits on alcohol
    Pre-loaded ‘ration cards’ will prevent those with convictions linked to drink, gambling or drugs from funding their habits" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2026/05/31/tories-to-stop-criminals-spending-benefits-on-alcohol/

    Nope. Ultimately, money's fungible. Need to stop the addiction(s) otherwise this is pointless.

    Also a slippery slope to spending money on "approved" things which is just not a sensible way of dealing with charity/benefits.
    I'm not sure that's true.

    Nobody is more aware of the laziness and corruption of the lower classes than me, but empirically, the proposal could show positive results.

    In America, government assistance through the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP/aka food stamps) is doled out in roughly the way that the Conservatives are proposing, and studies generally show low, usually very low, levels of abuse, at any rate for a government program.

    For example, this study from the University of Chicago Becker Friedman Institute found that cash assistance (like SSI) caused a 20-30% increase in emergency department visits for drug and alcohol use. By contrast, SNAP benefits, which are doled out electronically did not result in any increase in substance-related hospital visits.

    https://bfi.uchicago.edu/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/Paternalistic-Social-Assistance-Evidence-and-Implications-from-Cash-vs.-In-Kind-Transfers.pdf

    And again a National Center for Biotechnology Information study claimed that rather than funding drug or alcohol habits, the expansion of SNAP and the removal of drug-related eligibility bans actually correlate with reduced rates of substance use disorders and improved access to addiction treatments.

    https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7779750/

    Finally, according to the Brookings Institution, the majority of SNAP dollars are spent on staple goods, with the overall spending patterns of recipients closely mirroring those of non-recipients.

    So rather than making assumptions about the habits of the great unwashed, it's generally better to look at what actually happens.

    And the evidence is that this is a policy that could conceivably work, depending on how it's implemented.
    What's the baseline though? Presumably benefits recipients already spend roughly in line with their non-benefits peers.
    So I get given a voucher worth £100 - that is usable by others.

    I would be sold for £80-90 and the alcoholic will use that to get their alcohol.

    I'm sorry but have these people ever lived in the real world
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 36,323

    ‘Ultra-strength’ cocaine hits UK streets as deaths surge to record high
    Exclusive: Cocaine deaths have hit record levels, with more than 1,000 people dying last year.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/cocaine-drugs-uk-deaths-police-south-america-b2975580.html

    Good news for coked-up benefits card users!!

    • The purity of cocaine has risen from 32 per cent 13 years ago to more than 80 per cent today
    • Shocking figures show cocaine-related deaths in England and Wales have reached a record high, claiming 1,279 lives in 2024
    • The UK had the largest cocaine consumer rate in Europe in 2023, according to the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development
    • There has been a 40 per cent cut in real-time spending on adult drug and alcohol services from 2014 to 2022
    • The latest government figures from wastewater showed consumption of the drug in England had risen by a quarter in the past five years
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/cocaine-drugs-uk-deaths-police-south-america-b2975580.html

    Another British success story! A fine example of targeted government cuts raising GDP.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,945

    theProle said:

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    If you are far left economically then voting for Tice, Yosef and co is a bloody stretch.

    They want Dubai on Thames with flat rate, very low tax and fuck all else.
    Pretty clear reason as to why a Reform's coalition will quickly fall apart once in power. Can't please both WWC who want lefty economic policies and ex-Tories living in the Shires who want spending cuts and lower taxes.
    Mass deportation is arguably a lefty economic policy that directly benefits them.
    No, it is not.

    Lump of labour is a fallacy.

    That applies just as much to you as it does anyone claiming we need immigration.
    The lump of labour fallacy is irrelevant. Changes in supply still affect prices in the short term even if there isn't a fixed level of demand.

    I'm not on board the mass deportation train. I'd like to see the population decreasing, but to do that, I think it would be sufficient to just make it virtually impossible to come to the UK as a foreign national, and let natural wastage do the rest.

    However if we did do mass deportations, it's not just the labour market that's impacted. For example, if we were to deport a couple of million people that might actually be enough to put a meaningful dent into house prices and rents. That's much more in the interest of tenants and people near the bottom of the housing ladder than the well healed property owning classes.
    Do you mean you would make it virtually impossible for a foreign national to stay in the UK long term? Making it virtually impossible for them to come would destroy the tourist industry, destroy the higher education sector and put a severe dampener on the Commonwealth Games in a few months’ time.
    Yes - I'm only talking about immigration, I'm not suggesting banning tourists. In practical terms, I'd make it really difficult to come for more than say 90 days, probably via really tough salary rules, with none of the ridiculous "shortage occupation" exemptions.
  • berberian_knowsberberian_knows Posts: 199
    eek said:

    Fishing said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Good idea?

    "Tories to stop criminals spending benefits on alcohol
    Pre-loaded ‘ration cards’ will prevent those with convictions linked to drink, gambling or drugs from funding their habits" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2026/05/31/tories-to-stop-criminals-spending-benefits-on-alcohol/

    Nope. Ultimately, money's fungible. Need to stop the addiction(s) otherwise this is pointless.

    Also a slippery slope to spending money on "approved" things which is just not a sensible way of dealing with charity/benefits.
    I'm not sure that's true.

    Nobody is more aware of the laziness and corruption of the lower classes than me, but empirically, the proposal could show positive results.

    In America, government assistance through the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP/aka food stamps) is doled out in roughly the way that the Conservatives are proposing, and studies generally show low, usually very low, levels of abuse, at any rate for a government program.

    For example, this study from the University of Chicago Becker Friedman Institute found that cash assistance (like SSI) caused a 20-30% increase in emergency department visits for drug and alcohol use. By contrast, SNAP benefits, which are doled out electronically did not result in any increase in substance-related hospital visits.

    https://bfi.uchicago.edu/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/Paternalistic-Social-Assistance-Evidence-and-Implications-from-Cash-vs.-In-Kind-Transfers.pdf

    And again a National Center for Biotechnology Information study claimed that rather than funding drug or alcohol habits, the expansion of SNAP and the removal of drug-related eligibility bans actually correlate with reduced rates of substance use disorders and improved access to addiction treatments.

    https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7779750/

    Finally, according to the Brookings Institution, the majority of SNAP dollars are spent on staple goods, with the overall spending patterns of recipients closely mirroring those of non-recipients.

    So rather than making assumptions about the habits of the great unwashed, it's generally better to look at what actually happens.

    And the evidence is that this is a policy that could conceivably work, depending on how it's implemented.
    What's the baseline though? Presumably benefits recipients already spend roughly in line with their non-benefits peers.
    So I get given a voucher worth £100 - that is usable by others.

    I would be sold for £80-90 and the alcoholic will use that to get their alcohol.

    I'm sorry but have these people ever lived in the real world
    Make it available thru Apple/Google pay via face ID
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,673
    edited June 1

    MattW said:

    theProle said:

    It has been pointed out here before that the average Reform supporter is far-right socially but far-left economically.

    The plates are shifting.

    If you are far left economically then voting for Tice, Yosef and co is a bloody stretch.

    They want Dubai on Thames with flat rate, very low tax and fuck all else.
    Pretty clear reason as to why a Reform's coalition will quickly fall apart once in power. Can't please both WWC who want lefty economic policies and ex-Tories living in the Shires who want spending cuts and lower taxes.
    Mass deportation is arguably a lefty economic policy that directly benefits them.
    No, it is not.

    Lump of labour is a fallacy.

    That applies just as much to you as it does anyone claiming we need immigration.
    The lump of labour fallacy is irrelevant. Changes in supply still affect prices in the short term even if there isn't a fixed level of demand.

    I'm not on board the mass deportation train. I'd like to see the population decreasing, but to do that, I think it would be sufficient to just make it virtually impossible to come to the UK as a foreign national, and let natural wastage do the rest.

    However if we did do mass deportations, it's not just the labour market that's impacted. For example, if we were to deport a couple of million people that might actually be enough to put a meaningful dent into house prices and rents. That's much more in the interest of tenants and people near the bottom of the housing ladder than the well healed property owning classes.
    We already have a meaningful dent in house prices, especially in London - the median price is down 20% in real terms since the 2021 peak, which itself had hardly shifted from the 2017 peak.

    One current interesting phenomenon is that very few have noticed.
    Because that is not meaningful.

    A peak to not quite so peak fall of 20% in real terms is pretty meaningless in fact.

    It would take an approximately 70% to 80% fall from here in real terms to get a meaningful reduction back to rational price to income ratios that existed in the 90s.
    A 70-80% fall happening very quickly would also generate problems. A 20% fall is in the right direction and a quarter of the way there, while not being too sudden a change, so I don’t see why you’re being so sniffy about it.
    You’d ideally want to see somewhere around 4-5% fall per year in money terms, such that someone on a 25y repayment mortgage is not going to encounter negative equity.

    There’s still a lot of pent-up demand outside London though, a lot of housebuilding and/or population reduction required before prices fall significantly.
  • eekeek Posts: 33,905

    eek said:

    Fishing said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Good idea?

    "Tories to stop criminals spending benefits on alcohol
    Pre-loaded ‘ration cards’ will prevent those with convictions linked to drink, gambling or drugs from funding their habits" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2026/05/31/tories-to-stop-criminals-spending-benefits-on-alcohol/

    Nope. Ultimately, money's fungible. Need to stop the addiction(s) otherwise this is pointless.

    Also a slippery slope to spending money on "approved" things which is just not a sensible way of dealing with charity/benefits.
    I'm not sure that's true.

    Nobody is more aware of the laziness and corruption of the lower classes than me, but empirically, the proposal could show positive results.

    In America, government assistance through the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP/aka food stamps) is doled out in roughly the way that the Conservatives are proposing, and studies generally show low, usually very low, levels of abuse, at any rate for a government program.

    For example, this study from the University of Chicago Becker Friedman Institute found that cash assistance (like SSI) caused a 20-30% increase in emergency department visits for drug and alcohol use. By contrast, SNAP benefits, which are doled out electronically did not result in any increase in substance-related hospital visits.

    https://bfi.uchicago.edu/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/Paternalistic-Social-Assistance-Evidence-and-Implications-from-Cash-vs.-In-Kind-Transfers.pdf

    And again a National Center for Biotechnology Information study claimed that rather than funding drug or alcohol habits, the expansion of SNAP and the removal of drug-related eligibility bans actually correlate with reduced rates of substance use disorders and improved access to addiction treatments.

    https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7779750/

    Finally, according to the Brookings Institution, the majority of SNAP dollars are spent on staple goods, with the overall spending patterns of recipients closely mirroring those of non-recipients.

    So rather than making assumptions about the habits of the great unwashed, it's generally better to look at what actually happens.

    And the evidence is that this is a policy that could conceivably work, depending on how it's implemented.
    What's the baseline though? Presumably benefits recipients already spend roughly in line with their non-benefits peers.
    So I get given a voucher worth £100 - that is usable by others.

    I would be sold for £80-90 and the alcoholic will use that to get their alcohol.

    I'm sorry but have these people ever lived in the real world
    Make it available thru Apple/Google pay via face ID
    Certainly - that will be £500m to develop the app (got to give your mates money somehow).

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