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There is now going to be a Westminster by-election which Labour could win – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 13,169
edited May 9 in General
There is now going to be a Westminster by-election which Labour could win – politicalbetting.com

Following Stephen Flynn’s election to Holyrood we now have a Westminster by-election in Aberdeen South. I do expect an SNP hold with the right candidate I could see an SNP loss. Does Andy Burnham fancying becoming the King of the North East of Scotland?

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 6,305
    Good morning
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 66,561
    It'd be quite funny to see Andy Burnham fail here.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 47,887
    Voters response in the Doric to Burnham on the campaign trail:

    Fitlike, furrybooots are you fae?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 9,352

    It'd be quite funny to see Andy Burnham fail here.

    It'd be fairly amusing wherever it happens
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,351
    Andy Burnham is not going to stand in Aberdeenshire ffs.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,351
    Andy Burnham is not going to stand in Aberdeenshire ffs.

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 36,323
    edited May 9
    You misspelled Conservative in the headline. The Tories were just 1,200 votes behind on Thursday, and in 2024 they and Labour were close.

    It really depends on whether SNP voters turn out again. I guess a quick by-election would not be in their favour.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 3,238
    Aberdeen South could be Conservative with the right candidate. Fishing and Farming communities.

    D'oh how stupid of me to think that.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 12,878
    Battlebus said:

    Aberdeen South could be Conservative with the right candidate. Fishing and Farming communities.

    D'oh how stupid of me to think that.

    Could the right candidate be a chap that has always fancied himself as the next Churchill, and thinks he might emulate the latter's Dundee win?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,564
    edited May 9
    FPT I am disappointed nobody picked up on my subtle Welsh dragon pun in the headline.

    Glad somebody picked up on the 'don't look back in Bangor' one though.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,564

    Andy Burnham is not going to stand in Aberdeenshire ffs.

    He should!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,587
    Leon said:

    nico67 said:

    The strangest thing was both Labour and the Tories clinging onto the London life raft.

    Without London it would have been a complete catastrophe for the Tories aswell.

    What it highlights is the difference in the Tory voter in the capital and elsewhere .

    I had the very same thought today. The two main parties have both become “London parties” - which is a big change for the country and absolutely catastrophic for Labour and Conservative

    It’s also as predicted on the timeline of David Betz, the KCL academic who thinks civil strife is heading our way
    It's largely the result of the disparity in economic outcomes (and investment) between London and the regions, which has been steadily growing, unaddressed by government, for decades now.

    The protest vote for Reform, even if they were to obtain an unlikely majority at the next election, would almost certainly do nothing to address that.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 91,949
    In the last few minutes the former minister Catherine West added her voice.

    "The Labour Party need the chance to have an honest conversation about how we deliver the change we promised in 2024, and that requires new leadership which understands the urgent and real concerns of people across the UK," she said.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 79,488

    FPT I am disappointed nobody picked up on my subtle Welsh dragon pun in the headline.

    Glad somebody picked up on the 'don't look in Bangor' one though.

    It was a drag on the thread.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 27,934

    In the last few minutes the former minister Catherine West added her voice.

    "The Labour Party need the chance to have an honest conversation about how we deliver the change we promised in 2024, and that requires new leadership which understands the urgent and real concerns of people across the UK," she said.

    So things going south for Starmer and a potential boost for the King of the North?
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,878

    Andy Burnham is not going to stand in Aberdeenshire ffs.

    That won't stop people getting over-excited by the idea.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 27,934

    In the last few minutes the former minister Catherine West added her voice.

    "The Labour Party need the chance to have an honest conversation about how we deliver the change we promised in 2024, and that requires new leadership which understands the urgent and real concerns of people across the UK," she said.

    I am not sure it requires new leadership as much as £100-200bn a year that we don't have and can't sensibly raise.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,587
    Anyone keeping a count on these ?

    Reform UK paper candidate who was elected in Bradford, Daniel Devaney, has resigned already saying he doesn't want to be a councillor and has gone away on holiday.
    https://x.com/MyArrse/status/2052838969654509927
  • Leon_VotedForStarmerLeon_VotedForStarmer Posts: 69,000
    mwadams said:

    BTW - hello again everyone. Not that it has one jot of impact on your day, but it was quite like old times over the past few days and I really enjoyed the election day sparring.

    Yes, it was good

    If nothing else, the complete annihilation of old style uniparty politics has finally injected excitement into Westminster - and even local elections (and PB). People can now vote for 5, 6 or 7 parties knowing that they are voting for something they actually desire, not out of dutiful tribalism

    We do need PR at some point
  • Leon_VotedForStarmerLeon_VotedForStarmer Posts: 69,000
    edited May 9

    In the last few minutes the former minister Catherine West added her voice.

    "The Labour Party need the chance to have an honest conversation about how we deliver the change we promised in 2024, and that requires new leadership which understands the urgent and real concerns of people across the UK," she said.

    I wish they wouldn’t use this waffly passive meandering voice. It’s so off putting

    Can’t one Labour person come out and say “this is a disaster. Starmer has to go”

    It would be electrifying in its simplicity
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,428
    Andrew Marr says Farage will be the PM after the next election. I disagree. May I suggest a little calm amidst the hype, based on these boring thoughts

    1) On Thursday about 73% of those who voted didn't vote for Reform. Almost all hyped up comment has ignored their existence.
    2) Projections of NEV from Thursday's elections gave Reform about a 7 point lead over the next place (Sky, Rallings and Thrasher
    3) Reform got 27% of the vote (NEV) and a 4 point swap between them and the Tories would put (astonishingly) Tories in the lead
    4) Starmer won't be PM at the next election
    5) Reform have peaked from their 35% polling
    6) Farage is widely hated
    6) The Green vote has a strong 'O Jeremy Corbyn' feel about it and is flaky, split between young impressionable and older enthusiastic recyclers
    7) At the next GE the 70%+ non Reform vote will operate tactically
    8) Reform are about 11/4 to get a majority in the next GE.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,587
    Leon said:

    mwadams said:

    BTW - hello again everyone. Not that it has one jot of impact on your day, but it was quite like old times over the past few days and I really enjoyed the election day sparring.

    Yes, it was good

    If nothing else, the complete annihilation of old style uniparty politics has finally injected excitement into Westminster - and even local elections (and PB). People can now vote for 5, 6 or 7 parties knowing that they are voting for something they actually desire, not out of dutiful tribalism

    We do need PR at some point
    If not now, when ?

    Farage wants it; the LibDems have always wanted it; the Greens strongly support it. And Labour are possibly shell shocked enough to recognise their likely inability ever to win another commons majority.

    With very broad cross party support, and a large Parliamentary majority, there will never be a better time.

    "At some point" just means kick it into the long grass.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 25,447
    Nigelb said:

    Anyone keeping a count on these ?

    Reform UK paper candidate who was elected in Bradford, Daniel Devaney, has resigned already saying he doesn't want to be a councillor and has gone away on holiday.
    https://x.com/MyArrse/status/2052838969654509927

    He topped the poll. Was a split ward, Reform 1st and 2nd, Labour 3rd, edging out the third Reform by 29 votes.

    So a competitive by-election to come.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 27,934
    algarkirk said:

    Andrew Marr says Farage will be the PM after the next election. I disagree. May I suggest a little calm amidst the hype, based on these boring thoughts

    1) On Thursday about 73% of those who voted didn't vote for Reform. Almost all hyped up comment has ignored their existence.
    2) Projections of NEV from Thursday's elections gave Reform about a 7 point lead over the next place (Sky, Rallings and Thrasher
    3) Reform got 27% of the vote (NEV) and a 4 point swap between them and the Tories would put (astonishingly) Tories in the lead
    4) Starmer won't be PM at the next election
    5) Reform have peaked from their 35% polling
    6) Farage is widely hated
    6) The Green vote has a strong 'O Jeremy Corbyn' feel about it and is flaky, split between young impressionable and older enthusiastic recyclers
    7) At the next GE the 70%+ non Reform vote will operate tactically
    8) Reform are about 11/4 to get a majority in the next GE.

    He is the most likely individual to be PM after the next GE, but his chances are still more like 1 in 3 or 4 category than "will be" or even "likely to be".
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,587
    edited May 9
    Leon said:

    In the last few minutes the former minister Catherine West added her voice.

    "The Labour Party need the chance to have an honest conversation about how we deliver the change we promised in 2024, and that requires new leadership which understands the urgent and real concerns of people across the UK," she said.

    I wish they wouldn’t use this waffly passive meandering voice. It’s so off putting

    Can’t one Labour person come out and say “this is a disaster. Starmer has to go”

    It would be electrifying in its simplicity
    Most Labour members think Starmer cannot revive party fortunes, poll finds
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/may/09/labour-members-keir-starmer-party-fortunes-poll

    Pressure grows on Starmer as more Labour MPs call for resignation
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2026/may/09/may-elections-results-keir-starmer-labour-nigel-farage-reform-uk-politics-latest-news-updates

    There are plenty now calling for him to go - but they want him to step down voluntarily, for obvious reasons, rather than have to drag him out of No.10,

    This is characteristic of many such comments.
    Clive Betts, MP for Sheffield South East, told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme Starmer has to go “in the not too distant future”.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 27,934

    Nigelb said:

    Anyone keeping a count on these ?

    Reform UK paper candidate who was elected in Bradford, Daniel Devaney, has resigned already saying he doesn't want to be a councillor and has gone away on holiday.
    https://x.com/MyArrse/status/2052838969654509927

    He topped the poll. Was a split ward, Reform 1st and 2nd, Labour 3rd, edging out the third Reform by 29 votes.

    So a competitive by-election to come.
    It's tricky. Reform have got to explain why they have added unnecessary costs to the council budget but on the plus side they have shown how quick they can be at sorting out the rubbish.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,878
    Leon said:

    mwadams said:

    BTW - hello again everyone. Not that it has one jot of impact on your day, but it was quite like old times over the past few days and I really enjoyed the election day sparring.

    Yes, it was good

    If nothing else, the complete annihilation of old style uniparty politics has finally injected excitement into Westminster - and even local elections (and PB). People can now vote for 5, 6 or 7 parties knowing that they are voting for something they actually desire, not out of dutiful tribalism

    We do need PR at some point
    Absolutely. Even those who remain wedded to a partisan PoV add to the general gaiety rather than being a montonous drone.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,126
    edited May 9
    Good morning

    Stephen Flynn will be missed in the HOC as he was excellent at holding Starmer to account

    There is no 'sugar coating this' seems to be the official speak for labour mps

    Wales ejected labour from the Senedd in a long forecasted result, but to her great credit Eluned Morgan made a gracious resignation speech accepting she had failed to prevent the devastating result

    Compare and contrast that to Starmer who blames everyone else or it didn't pass his desk

    I do not like hate being used towards Starmer, and certainly I do not hate him but just despair at how inept and unsuited he is and if labour allow him to continue they are looking at an existential crisis for their movement

    As for Kemi she is not going to be challenged, and whilst yesterday was poor for the conservatives, she has started the process of recovery and she has 3 years to complete the task

    I would really like to see a head to head between her and Farage as I expect she would show him up for what he is

    Interesting that yesterday and in today's mail Boris has firmly rowed in behind Kemi, which may well trigger some

    We are in different politics now and it is very interesting

    In the meantime I wish Rhun well as our new Plaid First Minister and note that 1 labour and 1 conservative are likely to be Presiding and Deputy Presiding Officers

  • Leon_VotedForStarmerLeon_VotedForStarmer Posts: 69,000
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    mwadams said:

    BTW - hello again everyone. Not that it has one jot of impact on your day, but it was quite like old times over the past few days and I really enjoyed the election day sparring.

    Yes, it was good

    If nothing else, the complete annihilation of old style uniparty politics has finally injected excitement into Westminster - and even local elections (and PB). People can now vote for 5, 6 or 7 parties knowing that they are voting for something they actually desire, not out of dutiful tribalism

    We do need PR at some point
    If not now, when ?

    Farage wants it; the LibDems have always wanted it; the Greens strongly support it. And Labour are possibly shell shocked enough to recognise their likely inability ever to win another commons majority.

    With very broad cross party support, and a large Parliamentary majority, there will never be a better time.

    "At some point" just means kick it into the long grass.
    I agree. I want PR. But Labour cannot just shove it through with a vote, that would be disastrous and probably dangerous

    It either needs to be won in a referendum or as the fulfilment of an explicit manifesto promise, after a GE victory

    That said, such is the disgruntled nature of the electorate right now, that referendum might pass today. People WANT change
  • FishingFishing Posts: 6,355

    In the last few minutes the former minister Catherine West added her voice.

    "The Labour Party need the chance to have an honest conversation about how we deliver the change we promised in 2024, and that requires new leadership which understands the urgent and real concerns of people across the UK," she said.

    The trouble is:

    a) they didn't promise any change in 2024 - because they needed to keep floating voters on board their manifesto was paper-thin
    b) any new leadership will be selected by party members and activists, who are about the last people you'd expect to understand people's concerns in Basildon, Stroud, Hexham or wherever.

    So if that's what she really thinks, Labour are in even more trouble than their dire election result indicated.
  • Leon_VotedForStarmerLeon_VotedForStarmer Posts: 69,000
    algarkirk said:

    Andrew Marr says Farage will be the PM after the next election. I disagree. May I suggest a little calm amidst the hype, based on these boring thoughts

    1) On Thursday about 73% of those who voted didn't vote for Reform. Almost all hyped up comment has ignored their existence.
    2) Projections of NEV from Thursday's elections gave Reform about a 7 point lead over the next place (Sky, Rallings and Thrasher
    3) Reform got 27% of the vote (NEV) and a 4 point swap between them and the Tories would put (astonishingly) Tories in the lead
    4) Starmer won't be PM at the next election
    5) Reform have peaked from their 35% polling
    6) Farage is widely hated
    6) The Green vote has a strong 'O Jeremy Corbyn' feel about it and is flaky, split between young impressionable and older enthusiastic recyclers
    7) At the next GE the 70%+ non Reform vote will operate tactically
    8) Reform are about 11/4 to get a majority in the next GE.

    Your bleating is tedious
  • GarethoftheVale2GarethoftheVale2 Posts: 2,536
    If Burnham wants to run in Scotland the better choice would be the Arbroath by election where Lab were only 800 votes behind.

    As there will be two by-elections at the same time maybe Lab and Con should make a secret pact to focus on one each
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,587
    .
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    mwadams said:

    BTW - hello again everyone. Not that it has one jot of impact on your day, but it was quite like old times over the past few days and I really enjoyed the election day sparring.

    Yes, it was good

    If nothing else, the complete annihilation of old style uniparty politics has finally injected excitement into Westminster - and even local elections (and PB). People can now vote for 5, 6 or 7 parties knowing that they are voting for something they actually desire, not out of dutiful tribalism

    We do need PR at some point
    If not now, when ?

    Farage wants it; the LibDems have always wanted it; the Greens strongly support it. And Labour are possibly shell shocked enough to recognise their likely inability ever to win another commons majority.

    With very broad cross party support, and a large Parliamentary majority, there will never be a better time.

    "At some point" just means kick it into the long grass.
    I agree. I want PR. But Labour cannot just shove it through with a vote, that would be disastrous and probably dangerous

    It either needs to be won in a referendum or as the fulfilment of an explicit manifesto promise, after a GE victory

    That said, such is the disgruntled nature of the electorate right now, that referendum might pass today. People WANT change
    If Labour back it, the Tories, on around 20% of the vote, are the only party which doesn't. You don't need another bloody referendum.

    If I were Starmer's replacement I would challenge Farage to back a Commons bill introducing it for the next General Election.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,142
    edited May 9
    Has anyone done a simple correlation between reform % vote and educational attainment. Instead of folk looking in the mirror and reflecting on why their lifes are so shit, it’s the usual finger pointing. Same with Brexit, same with this election.
  • AndypetsAndypets Posts: 13
    Are we sure Farage wants it?

    It would be most disadvantageous to Reform with the current state of things.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 32,331
    On topic: give over
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 23,168
    I think changing such a big thing in British politics without it being a manifesto commitment or allowing. Vote would be rather anti democratic.

    Doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be done, of course…
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 27,934

    I think changing such a big thing in British politics without it being a manifesto commitment or allowing. Vote would be rather anti democratic.

    Doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be done, of course…

    It should be done, but it won't ever be. Why would a government just elected by FPTP be willing to change the playing field to one in which they wouldn't have a majority from? See Blair.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 91,949
    edited May 9
    murali_s said:

    Has anyone done a simple correlation between reform % vote and educational attainment. Instead of folk looking in the mirror and reflecting on why their lifes are so shit, it’s the usual finger pointing. Same with Brexit, same with this election.

    People commonly pump out such comparisons, but they aren't really any use without very careful controlling for other variables, because of the huge shift in the number of people going to university rather than on the job training from 15% to 50% in just over a generation. All to often it becomes a proxy for age.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,142
    I’m proud to report that Reform won zero councillors here in the London borough of Merton. Love Merton! Love London!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 66,561
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    mwadams said:

    BTW - hello again everyone. Not that it has one jot of impact on your day, but it was quite like old times over the past few days and I really enjoyed the election day sparring.

    Yes, it was good

    If nothing else, the complete annihilation of old style uniparty politics has finally injected excitement into Westminster - and even local elections (and PB). People can now vote for 5, 6 or 7 parties knowing that they are voting for something they actually desire, not out of dutiful tribalism

    We do need PR at some point
    If not now, when ?

    Farage wants it; the LibDems have always wanted it; the Greens strongly support it. And Labour are possibly shell shocked enough to recognise their likely inability ever to win another commons majority.

    With very broad cross party support, and a large Parliamentary majority, there will never be a better time.

    "At some point" just means kick it into the long grass.
    I agree. I want PR. But Labour cannot just shove it through with a vote, that would be disastrous and probably dangerous

    It either needs to be won in a referendum or as the fulfilment of an explicit manifesto promise, after a GE victory

    That said, such is the disgruntled nature of the electorate right now, that referendum might pass today. People WANT change
    Do they want "change"? Or do they just want some basic things fixed, like potholes, immigration, schools, good jobs, affordable homes etc?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 22,858

    In the last few minutes the former minister Catherine West added her voice.

    "The Labour Party need the chance to have an honest conversation about how we deliver the change we promised in 2024, and that requires new leadership which understands the urgent and real concerns of people across the UK," she said.

    I am not sure it requires new leadership as much as £100-200bn a year that we don't have and can't sensibly raise.
    Here's the thing, though.

    £100bn a year is about £30 per person per week. Whether that's tax rises or paying for things directly instead of via the state doesn't change the number. If we're honest, for some of us (a lot of us here) that would barely be noticed. For a lot of us, it would be unpleasant. For some, it would be painful, which is why it would be mad to do it as a flat rate thing. But if it really were life or death, freedom or slavery, we'd find it. You know, like the WW2 generation we eulogise did. The money is there.

    But the threat is too distant and intangible. So we would all rather quibble and haggle about how someone else should pay more and we should pay less. See the mewling over winter fuel payments from a generation who didn't fund that boon for their parents.

    Starmer isn't up to winning that argument with the public, but who is?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 66,561
    murali_s said:

    Has anyone done a simple correlation between reform % vote and educational attainment. Instead of folk looking in the mirror and reflecting on why their lifes are so shit, it’s the usual finger pointing. Same with Brexit, same with this election.

    Ah, the "they're all thick and stupid brigade".

    You are why people vote Reform.
  • Leon_VotedForStarmerLeon_VotedForStarmer Posts: 69,000
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    mwadams said:

    BTW - hello again everyone. Not that it has one jot of impact on your day, but it was quite like old times over the past few days and I really enjoyed the election day sparring.

    Yes, it was good

    If nothing else, the complete annihilation of old style uniparty politics has finally injected excitement into Westminster - and even local elections (and PB). People can now vote for 5, 6 or 7 parties knowing that they are voting for something they actually desire, not out of dutiful tribalism

    We do need PR at some point
    If not now, when ?

    Farage wants it; the LibDems have always wanted it; the Greens strongly support it. And Labour are possibly shell shocked enough to recognise their likely inability ever to win another commons majority.

    With very broad cross party support, and a large Parliamentary majority, there will never be a better time.

    "At some point" just means kick it into the long grass.
    I agree. I want PR. But Labour cannot just shove it through with a vote, that would be disastrous and probably dangerous

    It either needs to be won in a referendum or as the fulfilment of an explicit manifesto promise, after a GE victory

    That said, such is the disgruntled nature of the electorate right now, that referendum might pass today. People WANT change
    If Labour back it, the Tories, on around 20% of the vote, are the only party which doesn't. You don't need another bloody referendum.

    If I were Starmer's replacement I would challenge Farage to back a Commons bill introducing it for the next General Election.
    Yes. You very much need a referendum. Otherwise it looks like, right after a defeat, you’ve changed the rules so you don’t get so badly defeated again. It looks Putin-esque. And it would look that way because that’s exactly what it is

    Shame on you. Either you win a referendum or you win an election with PR in your manifesto
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 32,331

    Good morning

    Stephen Flynn will be missed in the HOC as he was excellent at holding Starmer to account

    There is no 'sugar coating this' seems to be the official speak for labour mps

    Wales ejected labour from the Senedd in a long forecasted result, but to her great credit Eluned Morgan made a gracious resignation speech accepting she had failed to prevent the devastating result

    Compare and contrast that to Starmer who blames everyone else or it didn't pass his desk

    I do not like hate being used towards Starmer, and certainly I do not hate him but just despair at how inept and unsuited he is and if labour allow him to continue they are looking at an existential crisis for their movement

    As for Kemi she is not going to be challenged, and whilst yesterday was poor for the conservatives, she has started the process of recovery and she has 3 years to complete the task

    I would really like to see a head to head between her and Farage as I expect she would show him up for what he is

    Interesting that yesterday and in today's mail Boris has firmly rowed in behind Kemi, which may well trigger some

    We are in different politics now and it is very interesting

    In the meantime I wish Rhun well as our new Plaid First Minister and note that 1 labour and 1 conservative are likely to be Presiding and Deputy Presiding Officers

    I agree with almost everything you posted, with one exception.

    In no way can you describe yesterday as "the process of recovery" for the Conservatives. It was - as you also said - "poor". Catastrophically in many places where they used to be very strong.

    Chatting with NE Tories yesterday they were decidedly glum, and a little bemused by my laughing in the face of disaster mindset.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,564

    If Burnham wants to run in Scotland the better choice would be the Arbroath by election where Lab were only 800 votes behind.

    As there will be two by-elections at the same time maybe Lab and Con should make a secret pact to focus on one each

    Ta, just updated header.
  • eekeek Posts: 33,905
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    mwadams said:

    BTW - hello again everyone. Not that it has one jot of impact on your day, but it was quite like old times over the past few days and I really enjoyed the election day sparring.

    Yes, it was good

    If nothing else, the complete annihilation of old style uniparty politics has finally injected excitement into Westminster - and even local elections (and PB). People can now vote for 5, 6 or 7 parties knowing that they are voting for something they actually desire, not out of dutiful tribalism

    We do need PR at some point
    If not now, when ?

    Farage wants it; the LibDems have always wanted it; the Greens strongly support it. And Labour are possibly shell shocked enough to recognise their likely inability ever to win another commons majority.

    With very broad cross party support, and a large Parliamentary majority, there will never be a better time.

    "At some point" just means kick it into the long grass.
    I agree. I want PR. But Labour cannot just shove it through with a vote, that would be disastrous and probably dangerous

    It either needs to be won in a referendum or as the fulfilment of an explicit manifesto promise, after a GE victory

    That said, such is the disgruntled nature of the electorate right now, that referendum might pass today. People WANT change
    If Labour back it, the Tories, on around 20% of the vote, are the only party which doesn't. You don't need another bloody referendum.

    If I were Starmer's replacement I would challenge Farage to back a Commons bill introducing it for the next General Election.
    It would have been better to do it 2 years ago based on the fact “we shouldn’t have got 450 seats with 3x%) of the vote.

    At least with Birmingham we are going to get a preview of what the next Parliament will look like without some change
  • BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 7,113
    Here’s a question, is Farage more popular with the Red Wall than Johnson was?
  • Leon_VotedForStarmerLeon_VotedForStarmer Posts: 69,000

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    mwadams said:

    BTW - hello again everyone. Not that it has one jot of impact on your day, but it was quite like old times over the past few days and I really enjoyed the election day sparring.

    Yes, it was good

    If nothing else, the complete annihilation of old style uniparty politics has finally injected excitement into Westminster - and even local elections (and PB). People can now vote for 5, 6 or 7 parties knowing that they are voting for something they actually desire, not out of dutiful tribalism

    We do need PR at some point
    If not now, when ?

    Farage wants it; the LibDems have always wanted it; the Greens strongly support it. And Labour are possibly shell shocked enough to recognise their likely inability ever to win another commons majority.

    With very broad cross party support, and a large Parliamentary majority, there will never be a better time.

    "At some point" just means kick it into the long grass.
    I agree. I want PR. But Labour cannot just shove it through with a vote, that would be disastrous and probably dangerous

    It either needs to be won in a referendum or as the fulfilment of an explicit manifesto promise, after a GE victory

    That said, such is the disgruntled nature of the electorate right now, that referendum might pass today. People WANT change
    Do they want "change"? Or do they just want some basic things fixed, like potholes, immigration, schools, good jobs, affordable homes etc?
    Ask them
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,193
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    mwadams said:

    BTW - hello again everyone. Not that it has one jot of impact on your day, but it was quite like old times over the past few days and I really enjoyed the election day sparring.

    Yes, it was good

    If nothing else, the complete annihilation of old style uniparty politics has finally injected excitement into Westminster - and even local elections (and PB). People can now vote for 5, 6 or 7 parties knowing that they are voting for something they actually desire, not out of dutiful tribalism

    We do need PR at some point
    If not now, when ?

    Farage wants it; the LibDems have always wanted it; the Greens strongly support it. And Labour are possibly shell shocked enough to recognise their likely inability ever to win another commons majority.

    With very broad cross party support, and a large Parliamentary majority, there will never be a better time.

    "At some point" just means kick it into the long grass.
    PR leads to electoral oblivion for Labour and there are plenty of Labour politicians in the Commons and Lords who understand that and would work with Tories to block a change to the voting system.

    You need to have PR endorsed by the voters to overcome such opposition. Either in a referendum - which would be impossible for the current government to win because it is so unpopular - or by making it a manifesto commitment of parties that win a general election.

    There are no shortcuts. Life is hard.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 39,733

    algarkirk said:

    Andrew Marr says Farage will be the PM after the next election. I disagree. May I suggest a little calm amidst the hype, based on these boring thoughts

    1) On Thursday about 73% of those who voted didn't vote for Reform. Almost all hyped up comment has ignored their existence.
    2) Projections of NEV from Thursday's elections gave Reform about a 7 point lead over the next place (Sky, Rallings and Thrasher
    3) Reform got 27% of the vote (NEV) and a 4 point swap between them and the Tories would put (astonishingly) Tories in the lead
    4) Starmer won't be PM at the next election
    5) Reform have peaked from their 35% polling
    6) Farage is widely hated
    6) The Green vote has a strong 'O Jeremy Corbyn' feel about it and is flaky, split between young impressionable and older enthusiastic recyclers
    7) At the next GE the 70%+ non Reform vote will operate tactically
    8) Reform are about 11/4 to get a majority in the next GE.

    He is the most likely individual to be PM after the next GE, but his chances are still more like 1 in 3 or 4 category than "will be" or even "likely to be".
    As we write, Farage looks to be next PM. However the NEV was pretty close to current polling averages for Reform who have shipped up to half a dozen points in average opinion polling over the last six months.

    Starmer will go.

    Farage's alleged incredibly dodgy business dealings, and who those dealings have been with must come under scrutiny.

    The historic alleged racism, particularly the anti-Semitism will be scrutinised more as the election approaches.

    The Trump adjacency as MAGA sinks.

    Reform in office could well prove disastrous, particularly in the current climate. Flags are not cheap and something else has to give.

    Oh, and one for the 2919 Tories, don't forget swing back!
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 32,331
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    mwadams said:

    BTW - hello again everyone. Not that it has one jot of impact on your day, but it was quite like old times over the past few days and I really enjoyed the election day sparring.

    Yes, it was good

    If nothing else, the complete annihilation of old style uniparty politics has finally injected excitement into Westminster - and even local elections (and PB). People can now vote for 5, 6 or 7 parties knowing that they are voting for something they actually desire, not out of dutiful tribalism

    We do need PR at some point
    If not now, when ?

    Farage wants it; the LibDems have always wanted it; the Greens strongly support it. And Labour are possibly shell shocked enough to recognise their likely inability ever to win another commons majority.

    With very broad cross party support, and a large Parliamentary majority, there will never be a better time.

    "At some point" just means kick it into the long grass.
    I agree. I want PR. But Labour cannot just shove it through with a vote, that would be disastrous and probably dangerous

    It either needs to be won in a referendum or as the fulfilment of an explicit manifesto promise, after a GE victory

    That said, such is the disgruntled nature of the electorate right now, that referendum might pass today. People WANT change
    Starmer has to do something gargantuan to survive, a complete change of narrative.

    Three options:
    1) Announce that faced with the global economic and security threat we are going to apply to join the EU
    2) Announce that with the obvious 6 way electoral politics delivered in recent elections FPTP is unsustainable and not supported by most parties elected in 2024 and thus a change to PR will be introduced
    3) Announce that faced with our fiscal crisis he has instructed the Chancellor to place a tax on all foreigners living abroad

    Remember folks, parliament is sovereign and can do whatever the fuck it likes. The Tories will bleat on about PR not being in the manifesto whist hoping you have forgotten that the Trussgasm was also not in the manifesto yet they backed that.

    Reform will say PR is an attempt to cheat them, despite Farage stating openly that FPTP is an attempt to cheat them which is why they need PR.

    Screw it. Roll the dice.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,142

    murali_s said:

    Has anyone done a simple correlation between reform % vote and educational attainment. Instead of folk looking in the mirror and reflecting on why their lifes are so shit, it’s the usual finger pointing. Same with Brexit, same with this election.

    Ah, the "they're all thick and stupid brigade".

    You are why people vote Reform.
    Give over. People are just reacting to their shortcomings. Simples. As the rabid socialistic, David Cameron said of these people, “fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists”.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,624

    murali_s said:

    Has anyone done a simple correlation between reform % vote and educational attainment. Instead of folk looking in the mirror and reflecting on why their lifes are so shit, it’s the usual finger pointing. Same with Brexit, same with this election.

    Ah, the "they're all thick and stupid brigade".

    You are why people vote Reform.
    Perhaps we have a regular poster, maybe somebody with an IQ obsession that borders on that of a Weimar Republic eugenicist, that could estimate the average IQ of each party's supporters.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,564
    edited May 9

    Good morning

    Stephen Flynn will be missed in the HOC as he was excellent at holding Starmer to account

    There is no 'sugar coating this' seems to be the official speak for labour mps

    Wales ejected labour from the Senedd in a long forecasted result, but to her great credit Eluned Morgan made a gracious resignation speech accepting she had failed to prevent the devastating result

    Compare and contrast that to Starmer who blames everyone else or it didn't pass his desk

    I do not like hate being used towards Starmer, and certainly I do not hate him but just despair at how inept and unsuited he is and if labour allow him to continue they are looking at an existential crisis for their movement

    As for Kemi she is not going to be challenged, and whilst yesterday was poor for the conservatives, she has started the process of recovery and she has 3 years to complete the task

    I would really like to see a head to head between her and Farage as I expect she would show him up for what he is

    Interesting that yesterday and in today's mail Boris has firmly rowed in behind Kemi, which may well trigger some

    We are in different politics now and it is very interesting

    In the meantime I wish Rhun well as our new Plaid First Minister and note that 1 labour and 1 conservative are likely to be Presiding and Deputy Presiding Officers

    I agree with almost everything you posted, with one exception.

    In no way can you describe yesterday as "the process of recovery" for the Conservatives. It was - as you also said - "poor". Catastrophically in many places where they used to be very strong.

    Chatting with NE Tories yesterday they were decidedly glum, and a little bemused by my laughing in the face of disaster mindset.
    The most shocking thing for me in recent months is that I am part of quite a few Tory constituency WhatsApp groups.

    For the past year, every few days somebody gets removed from the various groups.

    Then you find out that in parts of the country a majority of the 2024 Tory activist base have defected to Reform.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 23,124

    On topic: give over

    That's a nice Lancashire turn of phrase. I went into a hardware shop in Clitheroe and when I changed my mind over the size of nail I wanted said "You're what we in the business call a 'bohemian buggery"

  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,878

    Good morning

    Stephen Flynn will be missed in the HOC as he was excellent at holding Starmer to account

    There is no 'sugar coating this' seems to be the official speak for labour mps

    Wales ejected labour from the Senedd in a long forecasted result, but to her great credit Eluned Morgan made a gracious resignation speech accepting she had failed to prevent the devastating result

    Compare and contrast that to Starmer who blames everyone else or it didn't pass his desk

    I do not like hate being used towards Starmer, and certainly I do not hate him but just despair at how inept and unsuited he is and if labour allow him to continue they are looking at an existential crisis for their movement

    As for Kemi she is not going to be challenged, and whilst yesterday was poor for the conservatives, she has started the process of recovery and she has 3 years to complete the task

    I would really like to see a head to head between her and Farage as I expect she would show him up for what he is

    Interesting that yesterday and in today's mail Boris has firmly rowed in behind Kemi, which may well trigger some

    We are in different politics now and it is very interesting

    In the meantime I wish Rhun well as our new Plaid First Minister and note that 1 labour and 1 conservative are likely to be Presiding and Deputy Presiding Officers

    I agree with almost everything you posted, with one exception.

    In no way can you describe yesterday as "the process of recovery" for the Conservatives. It was - as you also said - "poor". Catastrophically in many places where they used to be very strong.

    Chatting with NE Tories yesterday they were decidedly glum, and a little bemused by my laughing in the face of disaster mindset.
    Hardly anyone seems to have got to John Major's post-1997 "well, we lost" stage of acceptance.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 27,934
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    mwadams said:

    BTW - hello again everyone. Not that it has one jot of impact on your day, but it was quite like old times over the past few days and I really enjoyed the election day sparring.

    Yes, it was good

    If nothing else, the complete annihilation of old style uniparty politics has finally injected excitement into Westminster - and even local elections (and PB). People can now vote for 5, 6 or 7 parties knowing that they are voting for something they actually desire, not out of dutiful tribalism

    We do need PR at some point
    If not now, when ?

    Farage wants it; the LibDems have always wanted it; the Greens strongly support it. And Labour are possibly shell shocked enough to recognise their likely inability ever to win another commons majority.

    With very broad cross party support, and a large Parliamentary majority, there will never be a better time.

    "At some point" just means kick it into the long grass.
    I agree. I want PR. But Labour cannot just shove it through with a vote, that would be disastrous and probably dangerous

    It either needs to be won in a referendum or as the fulfilment of an explicit manifesto promise, after a GE victory

    That said, such is the disgruntled nature of the electorate right now, that referendum might pass today. People WANT change
    Do they want "change"? Or do they just want some basic things fixed, like potholes, immigration, schools, good jobs, affordable homes etc?
    Ask them
    People want low taxes, great public services, low immigration but plenty of care workers and nurses (well paid but not high taxes remember) to look after their parents and grandparents.

    Asking them doesn't give a plausible policy platform at all.
  • BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 7,113
    edited May 9
    It does appear that MPs are starting to call for Sir Keir to go finally.

    This speech on Monday sounds like a complete joke. I genuinely don’t think Sir Keir understands how bad it is.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,351
    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges

    We've now had four cabinet Ministers - Lisa Nandy, Ed Miliband, Shabana Mahmood and Yvette Cooper - who have specifically failed to endorse Keir Starmer. These are all senior politicians, who know exactly what they're doing, and what signal their statements are sending.

    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/2053019276454342896
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 29,501

    In the last few minutes the former minister Catherine West added her voice.

    "The Labour Party need the chance to have an honest conversation about how we deliver the change we promised in 2024, and that requires new leadership which understands the urgent and real concerns of people across the UK," she said.

    I am not sure it requires new leadership as much as £100-200bn a year that we don't have and can't sensibly raise.
    Here's the thing, though.

    £100bn a year is about £30 per person per week. Whether that's tax rises or paying for things directly instead of via the state doesn't change the number. If we're honest, for some of us (a lot of us here) that would barely be noticed. For a lot of us, it would be unpleasant. For some, it would be painful, which is why it would be mad to do it as a flat rate thing. But if it really were life or death, freedom or slavery, we'd find it. You know, like the WW2 generation we eulogise did. The money is there.

    But the threat is too distant and intangible. So we would all rather quibble and haggle about how someone else should pay more and we should pay less. See the mewling over winter fuel payments from a generation who didn't fund that boon for their parents.

    Starmer isn't up to winning that argument with the public, but who is?
    Politicians have to win arguments with the public.

    The financial markets can impose instead.

    Those people thinking they have nothing to lose by voting Reform or Green might discover they do if the welfare they receive or public services they use are cut.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 39,733

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    mwadams said:

    BTW - hello again everyone. Not that it has one jot of impact on your day, but it was quite like old times over the past few days and I really enjoyed the election day sparring.

    Yes, it was good

    If nothing else, the complete annihilation of old style uniparty politics has finally injected excitement into Westminster - and even local elections (and PB). People can now vote for 5, 6 or 7 parties knowing that they are voting for something they actually desire, not out of dutiful tribalism

    We do need PR at some point
    If not now, when ?

    Farage wants it; the LibDems have always wanted it; the Greens strongly support it. And Labour are possibly shell shocked enough to recognise their likely inability ever to win another commons majority.

    With very broad cross party support, and a large Parliamentary majority, there will never be a better time.

    "At some point" just means kick it into the long grass.
    I agree. I want PR. But Labour cannot just shove it through with a vote, that would be disastrous and probably dangerous

    It either needs to be won in a referendum or as the fulfilment of an explicit manifesto promise, after a GE victory

    That said, such is the disgruntled nature of the electorate right now, that referendum might pass today. People WANT change
    Starmer has to do something gargantuan to survive, a complete change of narrative.

    Three options:
    1) Announce that faced with the global economic and security threat we are going to apply to join the EU
    2) Announce that with the obvious 6 way electoral politics delivered in recent elections FPTP is unsustainable and not supported by most parties elected in 2024 and thus a change to PR will be introduced
    3) Announce that faced with our fiscal crisis he has instructed the Chancellor to place a tax on all foreigners living abroad

    Remember folks, parliament is sovereign and can do whatever the fuck it likes. The Tories will bleat on about PR not being in the manifesto whist hoping you have forgotten that the Trussgasm was also not in the manifesto yet they backed that.

    Reform will say PR is an attempt to cheat them, despite Farage stating openly that FPTP is an attempt to cheat them which is why they need PR.

    Screw it. Roll the dice.
    Which Starmer are you talking about.

    It certainly isn't the one who is currently Prime Minister in name only.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 47,887

    If Burnham wants to run in Scotland the better choice would be the Arbroath by election where Lab were only 800 votes behind.

    As there will be two by-elections at the same time maybe Lab and Con should make a secret pact to focus on one each

    Not sure how you’d keep such a pact secret and pretty damaging in Scotland for the Blue & Red Tories to be seen as working together. Traditionally an approach might be to have an absolute muppet standing in the seat you want to lose, but given the depth of ‘talent’ in both parties it might be difficult to manage that level of differentiation.
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,080

    murali_s said:

    Has anyone done a simple correlation between reform % vote and educational attainment. Instead of folk looking in the mirror and reflecting on why their lifes are so shit, it’s the usual finger pointing. Same with Brexit, same with this election.

    Ah, the "they're all thick and stupid brigade".

    You are why people vote Reform.
    The guy is a gibbering moron. Best ignored.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 22,858

    In the last few minutes the former minister Catherine West added her voice.

    "The Labour Party need the chance to have an honest conversation about how we deliver the change we promised in 2024, and that requires new leadership which understands the urgent and real concerns of people across the UK," she said.

    I am not sure it requires new leadership as much as £100-200bn a year that we don't have and can't sensibly raise.
    Here's the thing, though.

    £100bn a year is about £30 per person per week. Whether that's tax rises or paying for things directly instead of via the state doesn't change the number. If we're honest, for some of us (a lot of us here) that would barely be noticed. For a lot of us, it would be unpleasant. For some, it would be painful, which is why it would be mad to do it as a flat rate thing. But if it really were life or death, freedom or slavery, we'd find it. You know, like the WW2 generation we eulogise did. The money is there.

    But the threat is too distant and intangible. So we would all rather quibble and haggle about how someone else should pay more and we should pay less. See the mewling over winter fuel payments from a generation who didn't fund that boon for their parents.

    Starmer isn't up to winning that argument with the public, but who is?
    The "dirty secret" of the Scandi model is that everybody pays a lot more tax into the system, not just the rich. But people are more happy with their settlement because the entitlements they recieve work better. Its a more difficult starting point in the UK because lack of confidence the state will actually use the extra money wisely and their won't be huge wastage.
    Agree about the fear. The much harder question is whether that fear is real, or a story we tell ourselves to put off a painful inevitability?

    And we could get back to fiscal sanity by cutting £30 per person a week of state entitlements. But flip knows what without further hurting people who are hurting enough.

    The British people have spent decades voting to take out more than we put in, and now we think it's normal. Trouble is, it isn't.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,142
    edited May 9

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    mwadams said:

    BTW - hello again everyone. Not that it has one jot of impact on your day, but it was quite like old times over the past few days and I really enjoyed the election day sparring.

    Yes, it was good

    If nothing else, the complete annihilation of old style uniparty politics has finally injected excitement into Westminster - and even local elections (and PB). People can now vote for 5, 6 or 7 parties knowing that they are voting for something they actually desire, not out of dutiful tribalism

    We do need PR at some point
    If not now, when ?

    Farage wants it; the LibDems have always wanted it; the Greens strongly support it. And Labour are possibly shell shocked enough to recognise their likely inability ever to win another commons majority.

    With very broad cross party support, and a large Parliamentary majority, there will never be a better time.

    "At some point" just means kick it into the long grass.
    I agree. I want PR. But Labour cannot just shove it through with a vote, that would be disastrous and probably dangerous

    It either needs to be won in a referendum or as the fulfilment of an explicit manifesto promise, after a GE victory

    That said, such is the disgruntled nature of the electorate right now, that referendum might pass today. People WANT change
    Starmer has to do something gargantuan to survive, a complete change of narrative.

    Three options:
    1) Announce that faced with the global economic and security threat we are going to apply to join the EU
    2) Announce that with the obvious 6 way electoral politics delivered in recent elections FPTP is unsustainable and not supported by most parties elected in 2024 and thus a change to PR will be introduced
    3) Announce that faced with our fiscal crisis he has instructed the Chancellor to place a tax on all foreigners living abroad

    Remember folks, parliament is sovereign and can do whatever the fuck it likes. The Tories will bleat on about PR not being in the manifesto whist hoping you have forgotten that the Trussgasm was also not in the manifesto yet they backed that.

    Reform will say PR is an attempt to cheat them, despite Farage stating openly that FPTP is an attempt to cheat them which is why they need PR.

    Screw it. Roll the dice.
    Agreed. Joining the EU now is a sure winner. Yes we have the Reform and Brexit types but they are now in the minority (by quite a distance). SKS should just go for it! It’s the only hope for him..
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 66,561
    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Has anyone done a simple correlation between reform % vote and educational attainment. Instead of folk looking in the mirror and reflecting on why their lifes are so shit, it’s the usual finger pointing. Same with Brexit, same with this election.

    Ah, the "they're all thick and stupid brigade".

    You are why people vote Reform.
    Give over. People are just reacting to their shortcomings. Simples. As the rabid socialistic, David Cameron said of these people, “fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists”.
    Oh dear.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 36,323
    murali_s said:

    Has anyone done a simple correlation between reform % vote and educational attainment. Instead of folk looking in the mirror and reflecting on why their lifes are so shit, it’s the usual finger pointing. Same with Brexit, same with this election.

    Age complicates things. People used to leave school at 15 and now leave school at 21, often to do the same jobs.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 32,331

    Good morning

    Stephen Flynn will be missed in the HOC as he was excellent at holding Starmer to account

    There is no 'sugar coating this' seems to be the official speak for labour mps

    Wales ejected labour from the Senedd in a long forecasted result, but to her great credit Eluned Morgan made a gracious resignation speech accepting she had failed to prevent the devastating result

    Compare and contrast that to Starmer who blames everyone else or it didn't pass his desk

    I do not like hate being used towards Starmer, and certainly I do not hate him but just despair at how inept and unsuited he is and if labour allow him to continue they are looking at an existential crisis for their movement

    As for Kemi she is not going to be challenged, and whilst yesterday was poor for the conservatives, she has started the process of recovery and she has 3 years to complete the task

    I would really like to see a head to head between her and Farage as I expect she would show him up for what he is

    Interesting that yesterday and in today's mail Boris has firmly rowed in behind Kemi, which may well trigger some

    We are in different politics now and it is very interesting

    In the meantime I wish Rhun well as our new Plaid First Minister and note that 1 labour and 1 conservative are likely to be Presiding and Deputy Presiding Officers

    I agree with almost everything you posted, with one exception.

    In no way can you describe yesterday as "the process of recovery" for the Conservatives. It was - as you also said - "poor". Catastrophically in many places where they used to be very strong.

    Chatting with NE Tories yesterday they were decidedly glum, and a little bemused by my laughing in the face of disaster mindset.
    The most shocking thing for me in recent months is that I am part of quite a few Tory constituency groups.

    For the past year, every few days somebody gets removed from the various groups.

    Then you find out that in parts of the country a majority of the 2024 Tory activist base have defected to Reform.
    Yep. All prominent local fuckers are ex Tories. Though as the remaining sane nice Tories point out, they have purged themselves of the nutters.

    A note. At several points yesterday I was in a gaggle of LD and Tory activists / councillors. We all agreed that the clear and obvious place for both parties to go shopping is in the traditional centre right and to do so with some big picture reforms of how we do things in this country, wrapped in Cameronism "we're all in this together"

    And another note. Two people - both councillors, one Tory, one LD - suggested the only way to remove the SNP from its vice grip is for there to be an alliance of unionists. Competing with each other to split the no vote just means wall to wall SNP. How we would pull such a thing off is the question...
  • Leon_VotedForStarmerLeon_VotedForStarmer Posts: 69,000
    murali_s said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    mwadams said:

    BTW - hello again everyone. Not that it has one jot of impact on your day, but it was quite like old times over the past few days and I really enjoyed the election day sparring.

    Yes, it was good

    If nothing else, the complete annihilation of old style uniparty politics has finally injected excitement into Westminster - and even local elections (and PB). People can now vote for 5, 6 or 7 parties knowing that they are voting for something they actually desire, not out of dutiful tribalism

    We do need PR at some point
    If not now, when ?

    Farage wants it; the LibDems have always wanted it; the Greens strongly support it. And Labour are possibly shell shocked enough to recognise their likely inability ever to win another commons majority.

    With very broad cross party support, and a large Parliamentary majority, there will never be a better time.

    "At some point" just means kick it into the long grass.
    I agree. I want PR. But Labour cannot just shove it through with a vote, that would be disastrous and probably dangerous

    It either needs to be won in a referendum or as the fulfilment of an explicit manifesto promise, after a GE victory

    That said, such is the disgruntled nature of the electorate right now, that referendum might pass today. People WANT change
    Starmer has to do something gargantuan to survive, a complete change of narrative.

    Three options:
    1) Announce that faced with the global economic and security threat we are going to apply to join the EU
    2) Announce that with the obvious 6 way electoral politics delivered in recent elections FPTP is unsustainable and not supported by most parties elected in 2024 and thus a change to PR will be introduced
    3) Announce that faced with our fiscal crisis he has instructed the Chancellor to place a tax on all foreigners living abroad

    Remember folks, parliament is sovereign and can do whatever the fuck it likes. The Tories will bleat on about PR not being in the manifesto whist hoping you have forgotten that the Trussgasm was also not in the manifesto yet they backed that.

    Reform will say PR is an attempt to cheat them, despite Farage stating openly that FPTP is an attempt to cheat them which is why they need PR.

    Screw it. Roll the dice.
    Agreed. Joining the EU now is a sure winner. Yes we have the Reform and Brexit types but they are now in the minority (by quite a distance). SKS should just go for it! It’s the only hope for him..
    I believe there was a Spectator piece a few months ago pointing out exactly this: that the best counter-intuitive move for Skyr is - call an EU Rejoin Referendum

    Then win it. Then retire in glory before the total crap show of negotiating re-entry begins
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 79,488

    If Burnham wants to run in Scotland the better choice would be the Arbroath by election where Lab were only 800 votes behind.

    As there will be two by-elections at the same time maybe Lab and Con should make a secret pact to focus on one each

    My great grandfather used to play for Arbroath FC. Admittedly it was around 130 years ago.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,791
    edited May 9

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    mwadams said:

    BTW - hello again everyone. Not that it has one jot of impact on your day, but it was quite like old times over the past few days and I really enjoyed the election day sparring.

    Yes, it was good

    If nothing else, the complete annihilation of old style uniparty politics has finally injected excitement into Westminster - and even local elections (and PB). People can now vote for 5, 6 or 7 parties knowing that they are voting for something they actually desire, not out of dutiful tribalism

    We do need PR at some point
    If not now, when ?

    Farage wants it; the LibDems have always wanted it; the Greens strongly support it. And Labour are possibly shell shocked enough to recognise their likely inability ever to win another commons majority.

    With very broad cross party support, and a large Parliamentary majority, there will never be a better time.

    "At some point" just means kick it into the long grass.
    I agree. I want PR. But Labour cannot just shove it through with a vote, that would be disastrous and probably dangerous

    It either needs to be won in a referendum or as the fulfilment of an explicit manifesto promise, after a GE victory

    That said, such is the disgruntled nature of the electorate right now, that referendum might pass today. People WANT change
    Starmer has to do something gargantuan to survive, a complete change of narrative.

    Three options:
    1) Announce that faced with the global economic and security threat we are going to apply to join the EU
    2) Announce that with the obvious 6 way electoral politics delivered in recent elections FPTP is unsustainable and not supported by most parties elected in 2024 and thus a change to PR will be introduced
    3) Announce that faced with our fiscal crisis he has instructed the Chancellor to place a tax on all foreigners living abroad

    Remember folks, parliament is sovereign and can do whatever the fuck it likes. The Tories will bleat on about PR not being in the manifesto whist hoping you have forgotten that the Trussgasm was also not in the manifesto yet they backed that.

    Reform will say PR is an attempt to cheat them, despite Farage stating openly that FPTP is an attempt to cheat them which is why they need PR.

    Screw it. Roll the dice.
    I think he does need to roll the dice to have any chance of survival. The one realistic thing he could do is use the next election as a referendum on re-joining the single market. It would win back some of the young voters lost to Green, and shore up the London and South-East base.

    I think this would take him from 0% to around a 25% chance of survival.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 79,488

    In the last few minutes the former minister Catherine West added her voice.

    "The Labour Party need the chance to have an honest conversation about how we deliver the change we promised in 2024, and that requires new leadership which understands the urgent and real concerns of people across the UK," she said.

    I am not sure it requires new leadership as much as £100-200bn a year that we don't have and can't sensibly raise.
    Here's the thing, though.

    £100bn a year is about £30 per person per week. Whether that's tax rises or paying for things directly instead of via the state doesn't change the number. If we're honest, for some of us (a lot of us here) that would barely be noticed. For a lot of us, it would be unpleasant. For some, it would be painful, which is why it would be mad to do it as a flat rate thing. But if it really were life or death, freedom or slavery, we'd find it. You know, like the WW2 generation we eulogise did. The money is there.

    But the threat is too distant and intangible. So we would all rather quibble and haggle about how someone else should pay more and we should pay less. See the mewling over winter fuel payments from a generation who didn't fund that boon for their parents.

    Starmer isn't up to winning that argument with the public, but who is?
    Politicians have to win arguments with the public.

    The financial markets can impose instead.

    Those people thinking they have nothing to lose by voting Reform or Green might discover they do if the welfare they receive or public services they use are cut.
    Haven't Reform said recently that they want to cut £15 billion off welfare to pay for the triple lock and move to an insurance style model for the NHS?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 47,887
    Roger said:

    On topic: give over

    That's a nice Lancashire turn of phrase. I went into a hardware shop in Clitheroe and when I changed my mind over the size of nail I wanted said "You're what we in the business call a 'bohemian buggery"

    Sir Lindsay ‘eeh, hotpot’ Hoyle has ruined Lancashire for me.
  • BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 7,113
    It all just feels so hollow.

    It’s obvious that Starmer doesn’t have a clue how to win the next election.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 66,561

    Good morning

    Stephen Flynn will be missed in the HOC as he was excellent at holding Starmer to account

    There is no 'sugar coating this' seems to be the official speak for labour mps

    Wales ejected labour from the Senedd in a long forecasted result, but to her great credit Eluned Morgan made a gracious resignation speech accepting she had failed to prevent the devastating result

    Compare and contrast that to Starmer who blames everyone else or it didn't pass his desk

    I do not like hate being used towards Starmer, and certainly I do not hate him but just despair at how inept and unsuited he is and if labour allow him to continue they are looking at an existential crisis for their movement

    As for Kemi she is not going to be challenged, and whilst yesterday was poor for the conservatives, she has started the process of recovery and she has 3 years to complete the task

    I would really like to see a head to head between her and Farage as I expect she would show him up for what he is

    Interesting that yesterday and in today's mail Boris has firmly rowed in behind Kemi, which may well trigger some

    We are in different politics now and it is very interesting

    In the meantime I wish Rhun well as our new Plaid First Minister and note that 1 labour and 1 conservative are likely to be Presiding and Deputy Presiding Officers

    I agree with almost everything you posted, with one exception.

    In no way can you describe yesterday as "the process of recovery" for the Conservatives. It was - as you also said - "poor". Catastrophically in many places where they used to be very strong.

    Chatting with NE Tories yesterday they were decidedly glum, and a little bemused by my laughing in the face of disaster mindset.
    They can only do what they're currently doing: offer the prospect of being the better option to solve the problems Reform voters really care about, and be sincere about it. Build up credibility.

    My view is a Reform government wouldn't get anything done because they'd be utterly disorganised, incompetent and more interesting in grandstanding and pissing, and that's not how politics works.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 27,934

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    mwadams said:

    BTW - hello again everyone. Not that it has one jot of impact on your day, but it was quite like old times over the past few days and I really enjoyed the election day sparring.

    Yes, it was good

    If nothing else, the complete annihilation of old style uniparty politics has finally injected excitement into Westminster - and even local elections (and PB). People can now vote for 5, 6 or 7 parties knowing that they are voting for something they actually desire, not out of dutiful tribalism

    We do need PR at some point
    If not now, when ?

    Farage wants it; the LibDems have always wanted it; the Greens strongly support it. And Labour are possibly shell shocked enough to recognise their likely inability ever to win another commons majority.

    With very broad cross party support, and a large Parliamentary majority, there will never be a better time.

    "At some point" just means kick it into the long grass.
    I agree. I want PR. But Labour cannot just shove it through with a vote, that would be disastrous and probably dangerous

    It either needs to be won in a referendum or as the fulfilment of an explicit manifesto promise, after a GE victory

    That said, such is the disgruntled nature of the electorate right now, that referendum might pass today. People WANT change
    Starmer has to do something gargantuan to survive, a complete change of narrative.

    Three options:
    1) Announce that faced with the global economic and security threat we are going to apply to join the EU
    2) Announce that with the obvious 6 way electoral politics delivered in recent elections FPTP is unsustainable and not supported by most parties elected in 2024 and thus a change to PR will be introduced
    3) Announce that faced with our fiscal crisis he has instructed the Chancellor to place a tax on all foreigners living abroad

    Remember folks, parliament is sovereign and can do whatever the fuck it likes. The Tories will bleat on about PR not being in the manifesto whist hoping you have forgotten that the Trussgasm was also not in the manifesto yet they backed that.

    Reform will say PR is an attempt to cheat them, despite Farage stating openly that FPTP is an attempt to cheat them which is why they need PR.

    Screw it. Roll the dice.
    I think he does need to roll the dice to have any chance of survival. The one realistic thing he could do is use the next election as a referendum on re-joining the single market. It would win back some of the young voters lost to Green, and shore up the London and South-East base.

    I think this would take him from 0% to around a 25% chance of survival.
    That will be the pitch of the next Labour leader. The winner will be the first to go strongest on closer ties to the EU and the Labour membership will approve.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 32,331
    Bonkers developments in Downing Street.

    Harriet Harman arrives. Is announced as the PM's new SPAD for Women and Girls.

    Gordon Brown has now arrived.

    Both are true. Not a joke!!!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 39,733
    edited May 9
    Leon said:

    Starmer manages to be no things to all men. He manages to please none of the people none of the time. He is an anti-politician, an ultra-non-populist

    It’s quite an achievement, in its own way

    That is a uniquely astute effort from @Leon .

    For a politician to be vilified by the Palestine adjacent for what they see as his role in the genocide of 80,000 Gazans and hated by the Jewish lobby for, what they see as encouraging the assassination of Jewish people on the streets of Britain is a remarkable feat, even for justifiably the most hated man in Britain today.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 36,323
    ydoethur said:

    In the last few minutes the former minister Catherine West added her voice.

    "The Labour Party need the chance to have an honest conversation about how we deliver the change we promised in 2024, and that requires new leadership which understands the urgent and real concerns of people across the UK," she said.

    I am not sure it requires new leadership as much as £100-200bn a year that we don't have and can't sensibly raise.
    Here's the thing, though.

    £100bn a year is about £30 per person per week. Whether that's tax rises or paying for things directly instead of via the state doesn't change the number. If we're honest, for some of us (a lot of us here) that would barely be noticed. For a lot of us, it would be unpleasant. For some, it would be painful, which is why it would be mad to do it as a flat rate thing. But if it really were life or death, freedom or slavery, we'd find it. You know, like the WW2 generation we eulogise did. The money is there.

    But the threat is too distant and intangible. So we would all rather quibble and haggle about how someone else should pay more and we should pay less. See the mewling over winter fuel payments from a generation who didn't fund that boon for their parents.

    Starmer isn't up to winning that argument with the public, but who is?
    Politicians have to win arguments with the public.

    The financial markets can impose instead.

    Those people thinking they have nothing to lose by voting Reform or Green might discover they do if the welfare they receive or public services they use are cut.
    Haven't Reform said recently that they want to cut £15 billion off welfare to pay for the triple lock and move to an insurance style model for the NHS?
    You are Angela Rayner speaking to a bunch of schoolchildren AICMFP.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 79,488

    Bonkers developments in Downing Street.

    Harriet Harman arrives. Is announced as the PM's new SPAD for Women and Girls.

    Gordon Brown has now arrived.

    Both are true. Not a joke!!!

    Does Starmer need advice on which random objects on his desk to throw at Rachel Reeves?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 47,887
    ydoethur said:

    If Burnham wants to run in Scotland the better choice would be the Arbroath by election where Lab were only 800 votes behind.

    As there will be two by-elections at the same time maybe Lab and Con should make a secret pact to focus on one each

    My great grandfather used to play for Arbroath FC. Admittedly it was around 130 years ago.
    The Red Lichties.
    Unfortunately beaten last night in the play offs for the Scottish Premiership.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 91,949
    edited May 9

    Bonkers developments in Downing Street.

    Harriet Harman arrives. Is announced as the PM's new SPAD for Women and Girls.

    Gordon Brown has now arrived.

    Both are true. Not a joke!!!

    Baroness Harman advise the government on how to improve its response to tackling violence against women and girls, improve representation and boost economic opportunities. She will also work with the cabinet secretary to "drive a shift in the culture across the Civil Service and ministerial offices, enhancing opportunity for women", according to Number 10.

    I am sure that is exactly what all those Northern seats they got spanked in want to see as part of the change agenda, more DEI in the civil service. Farage must be pissing himself laughing.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 27,934

    Bonkers developments in Downing Street.

    Harriet Harman arrives. Is announced as the PM's new SPAD for Women and Girls.

    Gordon Brown has now arrived.

    Both are true. Not a joke!!!

    They are also investigating whether they can either exhume Prescott or recreate him with AI.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 79,488

    Bonkers developments in Downing Street.

    Harriet Harman arrives. Is announced as the PM's new SPAD for Women and Girls.

    Gordon Brown has now arrived.

    Both are true. Not a joke!!!

    They are also investigating whether they can either exhume Prescott or recreate him with AI.

    Fat chance.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,791
    ydoethur said:

    If Burnham wants to run in Scotland the better choice would be the Arbroath by election where Lab were only 800 votes behind.

    As there will be two by-elections at the same time maybe Lab and Con should make a secret pact to focus on one each

    My great grandfather used to play for Arbroath FC. Admittedly it was around 130 years ago.
    I had an uncle who once played for Red Star Belgrade.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 79,488

    Bonkers developments in Downing Street.

    Harriet Harman arrives. Is announced as the PM's new SPAD for Women and Girls.

    Gordon Brown has now arrived.

    Both are true. Not a joke!!!

    Baroness Harman advise the government on how to improve its response to tackling violence against women and girls, improve representation and boost economic opportunities. She will also work with the cabinet secretary to "drive a shift in the culture across the Civil Service and ministerial offices, enhancing opportunity for women", according to Number 10.

    I am sure that is exactly what all those Northern seat they got spanked in want to see as part of the change agenda.
    He sees shades of grey. Apparently fifty of them.
  • Leon_VotedForStarmerLeon_VotedForStarmer Posts: 69,000

    Bonkers developments in Downing Street.

    Harriet Harman arrives. Is announced as the PM's new SPAD for Women and Girls.

    Gordon Brown has now arrived.

    Both are true. Not a joke!!!

    It’s like a weird pantomime in Hell
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,193

    Good morning

    Stephen Flynn will be missed in the HOC as he was excellent at holding Starmer to account

    There is no 'sugar coating this' seems to be the official speak for labour mps

    Wales ejected labour from the Senedd in a long forecasted result, but to her great credit Eluned Morgan made a gracious resignation speech accepting she had failed to prevent the devastating result

    Compare and contrast that to Starmer who blames everyone else or it didn't pass his desk

    I do not like hate being used towards Starmer, and certainly I do not hate him but just despair at how inept and unsuited he is and if labour allow him to continue they are looking at an existential crisis for their movement

    As for Kemi she is not going to be challenged, and whilst yesterday was poor for the conservatives, she has started the process of recovery and she has 3 years to complete the task

    I would really like to see a head to head between her and Farage as I expect she would show him up for what he is

    Interesting that yesterday and in today's mail Boris has firmly rowed in behind Kemi, which may well trigger some

    We are in different politics now and it is very interesting

    In the meantime I wish Rhun well as our new Plaid First Minister and note that 1 labour and 1 conservative are likely to be Presiding and Deputy Presiding Officers

    I agree with almost everything you posted, with one exception.

    In no way can you describe yesterday as "the process of recovery" for the Conservatives. It was - as you also said - "poor". Catastrophically in many places where they used to be very strong.

    Chatting with NE Tories yesterday they were decidedly glum, and a little bemused by my laughing in the face of disaster mindset.
    The most shocking thing for me in recent months is that I am part of quite a few Tory constituency groups.

    For the past year, every few days somebody gets removed from the various groups.

    Then you find out that in parts of the country a majority of the 2024 Tory activist base have defected to Reform.
    Yep. All prominent local fuckers are ex Tories. Though as the remaining sane nice Tories point out, they have purged themselves of the nutters.

    A note. At several points yesterday I was in a gaggle of LD and Tory activists / councillors. We all agreed that the clear and obvious place for both parties to go shopping is in the traditional centre right and to do so with some big picture reforms of how we do things in this country, wrapped in Cameronism "we're all in this together"

    And another note. Two people - both councillors, one Tory, one LD - suggested the only way to remove the SNP from its vice grip is for there to be an alliance of unionists. Competing with each other to split the no vote just means wall to wall SNP. How we would pull such a thing off is the question...
    It is possible to unite people with a divergence of political beliefs around a central idea - like Independence - that represents a change to the status quo. I think it would be much harder to create an alliance for the purpose of maintaining the status quo (such as the Union).
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 32,331

    Bonkers developments in Downing Street.

    Harriet Harman arrives. Is announced as the PM's new SPAD for Women and Girls.

    Gordon Brown has now arrived.

    Both are true. Not a joke!!!

    Baroness Harman advise the government on how to improve its response to tackling violence against women and girls, improve representation and boost economic opportunities. She will also work with the cabinet secretary to "drive a shift in the culture across the Civil Service and ministerial offices, enhancing opportunity for women", according to Number 10.

    I am sure that is exactly what all those Northern seats they got spanked in want to see as part of the change agenda, more DEI in the civil service. Farage must be pissing himself laughing.
    I did say bonkers developments...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 91,949
    edited May 9
    Leon said:

    Bonkers developments in Downing Street.

    Harriet Harman arrives. Is announced as the PM's new SPAD for Women and Girls.

    Gordon Brown has now arrived.

    Both are true. Not a joke!!!

    It’s like a weird pantomime in Hell
    I AM THE CHANGE....That is why today I am going to expand DEI initatives in the civil service and bring back more people like Gordon Brown to help me.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 22,024
    Doing PR or Rejoin without a clear manifesto commitment or a referendum mandate is a recipe for disaster
  • BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 7,113
    It is honestly staggering that this feels like the actions of Labour in 2009 after being in office since 1997, not the actions of a government elected TWO YEARS AGO.

    Everyone can see this is over. But apparently not Keir Starmer. I conclude he’s thick as pig shit.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 8,319
    Andrew Marr should know better than to predict the GE result three years out .

    Reform aren’t 20 points ahead and a GE campaign is quite different from local elections .

    Thursday was a free hit for voters in England . Some of the Reform policy positions might excite their base but the UK isn’t the USA and their core vote isn’t enough to get elected .
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,193
    algarkirk said:

    Andrew Marr says Farage will be the PM after the next election. I disagree. May I suggest a little calm amidst the hype, based on these boring thoughts

    1) On Thursday about 73% of those who voted didn't vote for Reform. Almost all hyped up comment has ignored their existence.
    2) Projections of NEV from Thursday's elections gave Reform about a 7 point lead over the next place (Sky, Rallings and Thrasher
    3) Reform got 27% of the vote (NEV) and a 4 point swap between them and the Tories would put (astonishingly) Tories in the lead
    4) Starmer won't be PM at the next election
    5) Reform have peaked from their 35% polling
    6) Farage is widely hated
    6) The Green vote has a strong 'O Jeremy Corbyn' feel about it and is flaky, split between young impressionable and older enthusiastic recyclers
    7) At the next GE the 70%+ non Reform vote will operate tactically
    8) Reform are about 11/4 to get a majority in the next GE.

    You keep on posting something like this, but you don't present much evidence for it.

    Most Tory voters will tactically vote for Reform to stop a Labour or Green victory. Very few Labour or Green voters will vote tactically for a Tory to stop a Reform victory. Your anti-Reform 70+% doesn't exist.

    We know this from the opinion polling and the evidence of by-elections.

    If Reform maintain a lead then FPTP will deliver them a winner's bonus, and it's possible they win a majority on a very low national share of the vote.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 36,323

    Bonkers developments in Downing Street.

    Harriet Harman arrives. Is announced as the PM's new SPAD for Women and Girls.

    Gordon Brown has now arrived.

    Both are true. Not a joke!!!

    Baroness Harman advise the government on how to improve its response to tackling violence against women and girls, improve representation and boost economic opportunities. She will also work with the cabinet secretary to "drive a shift in the culture across the Civil Service and ministerial offices, enhancing opportunity for women", according to Number 10.

    I am sure that is exactly what all those Northern seat they got spanked in want to see as part of the change agenda.
    Jess Phillips, the Minister for Safeguarding and Violence Against Women and Girls, will be looking over her shoulder. Will it be up or out in the rumoured reshuffle? (Also, didn't someone question that job title?)
This discussion has been closed.