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More spin from Team Burnham? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 13,174
edited May 4 in General
More spin from Team Burnham? – politicalbetting.com

? Mayor of Greater Manchester’s camp makes discreet approaches to senior officials as speculation mounts about his return to Westminster? https://t.co/C0gTWHrvT4 pic.twitter.com/dctMHDfo6e

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  • TazTaz Posts: 28,195
    edited May 4
    First

    Unlike Ange thankfully
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,694
    It's not exactly discrete if it's on the Telegraph front page.
    And the sense of presumption/ entitlement is off the charts.

    Did one of his rivals give the Telegraph this story, or is he really so tin-eared ?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,599
    Nigelb said:

    It's not exactly discrete if it's on the Telegraph front page.
    And the sense of presumption/ entitlement is off the charts.

    Did one of his rivals give the Telegraph this story, or is he really so tin-eared ?

    Andy Burnham matches me on the subtlety front.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 60,420

    Can you really believe anything the Telegraph prints about the Labour Party/Government?

    Can you really believe anything the various contenders says about the other members of the Labour Party/Government?

    Although Burnham has quite a hurdle to clear to be a contender...
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 22,877

    Can you really believe anything the Telegraph prints about the Labour Party/Government?

    Only five words too long.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 6,306
    edited May 4
    I think we agree Burnham's team may have some plans but they are not fully formed end-to-end.

    The purpose of the spin at this point is entirely to get some Labour MPs to hold back their signatures whilst a possible by-election run can be firmed up, which could be the difference between one of the others reaching 81 too soon or not. It is the sowing of a doubt rather than an exercise in gospel truth, a stalling exercise to afford Burnham the opportunity to reach the starting line.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,599
    edited May 4

    Can you really believe anything the Telegraph prints about the Labour Party/Government?

    Those last five words are redundant.

    Edit - beaten to it by StuartinRomford
  • RogerRoger Posts: 23,142
    OT. Are the Iranians winning? Interesting

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Md5kgNSD30w
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 63,554
    FPT

    On the Reform camps to concentrate migrants for deportation.

    The location methodology brings to mind a quote.

    “Own the Libtards”

    The location is half of the reason for them - to “give Them a taste of their own medicine”.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 63,554

    Nigelb said:

    It's not exactly discrete if it's on the Telegraph front page.
    And the sense of presumption/ entitlement is off the charts.

    Did one of his rivals give the Telegraph this story, or is he really so tin-eared ?

    Andy Burnham matches me on the subtlety front.
    “The Ship of State is the only ship that leaks from the top”
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,434
    Nigelb said:

    It's not exactly discrete if it's on the Telegraph front page.
    And the sense of presumption/ entitlement is off the charts.

    Did one of his rivals give the Telegraph this story, or is he really so tin-eared ?

    Not discreet either.

  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 1,076
    Before Andy Burnam gives up being Mayor of Greater Manchester he should look at the 1965 Leyton by-election when Patrick Gordon Walker stood to become an MP and stay as Foreign Secretary.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,440
    Roger said:

    OT. Are the Iranians winning? Interesting

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Md5kgNSD30w

    Israel, or, more accurately, Netanyahu and his immediate allies, might want to go on, but I suspect Trump's getting bored with the whole thing.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,434
    Roger said:

    OT. Are the Iranians winning? Interesting

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Md5kgNSD30w

    The successors Xerxes and Darius III are taking their time getting their revenge for Salamis and Gaugamela.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 18,483

    FPT

    On the Reform camps to concentrate migrants for deportation.

    The location methodology brings to mind a quote.

    “Own the Libtards”

    The location is half of the reason for them - to “give Them a taste of their own medicine”.

    You'd be hard pressed to find a spot to build one of these concentration camps in my own liberal minded inner London constituency but Reform would be more than welcome to give it a go if they fancy it. Good luck to them getting anyone in or out though.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,388

    Luke Tryl
    @LukeTryl
    ·
    1h
    Our Final Welsh MRP finds Labour being squeezed. Plaid leading on vote share but tied with Reform on seats and clutch of highly marginal 6th seats

    🌼Plaid Cymru 34 seats
    ➡️Reform UK 34 seats
    🌹Labour 14 seats
    🌳Conservatives 9 seats
    💚Greens 5 seats

    https://x.com/LukeTryl/status/2051226566894448876
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,542
    Good morning everyone.

    There have been a few Spectator debates (in the Round House at the British Museum by the look of it) about (essentially) "Reform or Conservative?"

    This one is Clare Coutinho, Nick Timothy, Matt Goodwin, and Danny Kruger.

    https://www.youtube.com/live/kajmqn2yZSI

    7 minute speeches, and quite interesting. To me the best was Clare Coutinho, who actually addressed the topic imo. The reform side were making, to my ear, Ref UK event speeches to the wrong audience.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,440

    FPT

    On the Reform camps to concentrate migrants for deportation.

    The location methodology brings to mind a quote.

    “Own the Libtards”

    The location is half of the reason for them - to “give Them a taste of their own medicine”.

    You'd be hard pressed to find a spot to build one of these concentration camps in my own liberal minded inner London constituency but Reform would be more than welcome to give it a go if they fancy it. Good luck to them getting anyone in or out though.

    FPT

    On the Reform camps to concentrate migrants for deportation.

    The location methodology brings to mind a quote.

    “Own the Libtards”

    The location is half of the reason for them - to “give Them a taste of their own medicine”.

    You'd be hard pressed to find a spot to build one of these concentration camps in my own liberal minded inner London constituency but Reform would be more than welcome to give it a go if they fancy it. Good luck to them getting anyone in or out though.
    There's a camp in the next constituency to the one in which I live. Attitudes to it seem a bit mixed.
  • MelonBMelonB Posts: 17,363
    edited May 4

    FPT

    On the Reform camps to concentrate migrants for deportation.

    The location methodology brings to mind a quote.

    “Own the Libtards”

    The location is half of the reason for them - to “give Them a taste of their own medicine”.

    You'd be hard pressed to find a spot to build one of these concentration camps in my own liberal minded inner London constituency but Reform would be more than welcome to give it a go if they fancy it. Good luck to them getting anyone in or out though.
    Things have so developed in the last year and a half that the fact Reform is promising to build concentration camps is now marginally less toxic than the fact Reform is doing things like Donald Trump.
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,195
    algarkirk said:

    Roger said:

    OT. Are the Iranians winning? Interesting

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Md5kgNSD30w

    The successors Xerxes and Darius III are taking their time getting their revenge for Salamis and Gaugamela.
    The IRGC have just issued a new control zone map for Hormuz. Iran certainly is not acting like it’s lost or losing.
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,195
    Burnham is more Roger Wijesuriya in spinner terms
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,195
    MelonB said:

    FPT

    On the Reform camps to concentrate migrants for deportation.

    The location methodology brings to mind a quote.

    “Own the Libtards”

    The location is half of the reason for them - to “give Them a taste of their own medicine”.

    You'd be hard pressed to find a spot to build one of these concentration camps in my own liberal minded inner London constituency but Reform would be more than welcome to give it a go if they fancy it. Good luck to them getting anyone in or out though.
    Things have so developed in the last year and a half that the fact Reform is promising to build concentration camps is now marginally less toxic than the fact Reform is doing things like Donald Trump.
    I don’t approve of this policy at all but calling them concentration camps is not only absurd it also diminishes the reality of actual concentration camps and those who lost their lives in them.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,599
    Iran hits US warship with two missiles near Strait of Hormuz, Iranian state media says

    https://news.sky.com/story/iran-war-latest-trump-blockade-strait-of-hormuz-lebanon-13509565

    And back to my break.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,542

    FPT

    On the Reform camps to concentrate migrants for deportation.

    The location methodology brings to mind a quote.

    “Own the Libtards”

    The location is half of the reason for them - to “give Them a taste of their own medicine”.

    You'd be hard pressed to find a spot to build one of these concentration camps in my own liberal minded inner London constituency but Reform would be more than welcome to give it a go if they fancy it. Good luck to them getting anyone in or out though.
    Trump is buying up distribution warehouses to hold up to 10k each. In London they could use old office blocks or similar.

    There's been a bit of a scandal in Canada about Jim Pattison (Canadian billionaire) selling a warehouse in Virginia to the DHS. He reverse-ferreted.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/sofiachierchio/2026/01/30/billionaire-jim-pattison-refuses-to-sell-warehouse-to-dhs-for-ice-facility/

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,440
    O/.t but the site seems to be erratically unavailable this morning.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,193
    Good morning

    The one thing about the Burnham saga is the labour party has real problems with loyalty and Starmer himself

    And this has yet to be confirmed by US but not looking good for peace anytime soon

    https://news.sky.com/liveblog-webview/iran-war-latest-trump-blockade-strait-of-hormuz-lebanon-13509565
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 9,134
    There is lots of spin coming out now and I’m taking little at face value. Lots of briefing and counter-briefing, I expect. Im taking everything about people running vs not running, having the numbers v not having the numbers etc, with a huge dose of salt.

    It will all become clearer this weekend - as to where contenders sit, and whether Starmer can be removed.
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,195

    Good morning

    The one thing about the Burnham saga is the labour party has real problems with loyalty and Starmer himself

    And this has yet to be confirmed by US but not looking good for peace anytime soon

    https://news.sky.com/liveblog-webview/iran-war-latest-trump-blockade-strait-of-hormuz-lebanon-13509565

    There’ll either be a negotiated agreement or escalation and, so far, negotiations go nowhere due to inflexibility on both sides.

    So it’s escalation and the further destruction of infrastructure and the damage that does to us all.

    Bart will be pleased
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,388
    Server problems this morning.
  • MelonBMelonB Posts: 17,363
    Taz said:

    MelonB said:

    FPT

    On the Reform camps to concentrate migrants for deportation.

    The location methodology brings to mind a quote.

    “Own the Libtards”

    The location is half of the reason for them - to “give Them a taste of their own medicine”.

    You'd be hard pressed to find a spot to build one of these concentration camps in my own liberal minded inner London constituency but Reform would be more than welcome to give it a go if they fancy it. Good luck to them getting anyone in or out though.
    Things have so developed in the last year and a half that the fact Reform is promising to build concentration camps is now marginally less toxic than the fact Reform is doing things like Donald Trump.
    I don’t approve of this policy at all but calling them concentration camps is not only absurd it also diminishes the reality of actual concentration camps and those who lost their lives in them.

    Invented by the British

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Boer_War_concentration_camps

    But my point is the biggest toxicity in this announcement is the MAGA-style partisanship.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,542
    edited May 4
    P-p-p-pickup an FPT:
    Nigelb said:


    Tomorrow, @TexasMonthly will be dropping a ~12,000 word story on Paul Pressler, the alleged sexual predator who remade the Southern Baptist Convention and helped ordain the marriage between the GOP and white evangelical voters. There is *a lot* in there and I hope you'll read it.
    https://x.com/RobertDownen_/status/2051060558112162211

    That's actually quite Trumpish in the manipulations, though establishment rather than robber-baron. Big wheel in the Southern Baptist, religious, and organising sector - politics, church, judge. Supplied very untransparently with "personal assistants" rather than a salary in one arrangement. Paid off a claimant with $450k hush money in 2004. Past experience of paying people off who made claims.

    (He's dead, btw.)

    A revealing little insight on these people. There was a stained glass window of HIM, rather than say a Saint or a bible story, in a Baptist Seminary, which was removed some years ago. They aggrandise themselves, regardless of all the "Prayer for Humility" type hymns. The window style is truly gruesome:



    (Report: https://www.brnow.org/news/SWBTS-removes-controversial-stained-glass-windows/ .)
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 32,602
    The most interesting feature of this Reform announcement is that they seem to have abandoned attacking the Labour government in favour of the Greens. As have the Mail, Express. etc.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 8,325
    I think we need proper verification that Iran did hit the US vessel with two missiles .

    It could just be some Iranian media spin .
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,989

    Iran hits US warship with two missiles near Strait of Hormuz, Iranian state media says

    https://news.sky.com/story/iran-war-latest-trump-blockade-strait-of-hormuz-lebanon-13509565

    And back to my break.

    Claim seems sketchy:
    https://bsky.app/profile/shipwreck75.bsky.social/post/3mkzhwr2hak27

    That said I do like this method of fighting a war where everyone just pretends they shot the other side.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,193
    Taz said:

    Good morning

    The one thing about the Burnham saga is the labour party has real problems with loyalty and Starmer himself

    And this has yet to be confirmed by US but not looking good for peace anytime soon

    https://news.sky.com/liveblog-webview/iran-war-latest-trump-blockade-strait-of-hormuz-lebanon-13509565

    There’ll either be a negotiated agreement or escalation and, so far, negotiations go nowhere due to inflexibility on both sides.

    So it’s escalation and the further destruction of infrastructure and the damage that does to us all.

    Bart will be pleased
    Decribes labour woes well !!!!!!
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,195
    MelonB said:

    Taz said:

    MelonB said:

    FPT

    On the Reform camps to concentrate migrants for deportation.

    The location methodology brings to mind a quote.

    “Own the Libtards”

    The location is half of the reason for them - to “give Them a taste of their own medicine”.

    You'd be hard pressed to find a spot to build one of these concentration camps in my own liberal minded inner London constituency but Reform would be more than welcome to give it a go if they fancy it. Good luck to them getting anyone in or out though.
    Things have so developed in the last year and a half that the fact Reform is promising to build concentration camps is now marginally less toxic than the fact Reform is doing things like Donald Trump.
    I don’t approve of this policy at all but calling them concentration camps is not only absurd it also diminishes the reality of actual concentration camps and those who lost their lives in them.

    Invented by the British

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Boer_War_concentration_camps

    But my point is the biggest toxicity in this announcement is the MAGA-style partisanship.
    Yeah I know it was the brits who invented it but thanks anyway.

    The MAGA stuff with reform isn’t new but a vote loser for them

    I’d see it probably more like internment than the industrial extermination of people
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 63,554

    Dawkins branching out into lit crit now.

    Richard Dawkins
    @RichardDawkins
    ·
    5 Jun 2021
    Kafka’s Metamorphosis is called a major work of literature. Why? If it’s SF it’s bad SF. If, like Animal Farm, it’s an allegory, an allegory of what? Scholarly answers range from pretentious Freudian to far-fetched feminist. I don’t get it. Where are the Emperor’s clothes?


    A genine lol reply to puncture his ever increasing self importance.

    Moose Allain Ꙭ
    @MooseAllain
    Wondering if anyone else has been affected by any of the issues in Kafka's The Metamorphosis? At the moment I'm just putting out feelers.

    People having been arguing about the meaning in Metamorphosis since 1915.

    My theory is that it may not have a single meaning of its own - it uses the SF style of "One impossible technology/event - then follow the consequences". The meaning is in the interpretations imposed upon it by the readers and reviewers. A literary Rorschach test.

    A casual glance at the reviews over the years, certainly suggests people finding their now preoccupations and concerns in it.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 32,602
    MattW said:

    P-p-p-pickup an FPT:

    Nigelb said:


    Tomorrow, @TexasMonthly will be dropping a ~12,000 word story on Paul Pressler, the alleged sexual predator who remade the Southern Baptist Convention and helped ordain the marriage between the GOP and white evangelical voters. There is *a lot* in there and I hope you'll read it.
    https://x.com/RobertDownen_/status/2051060558112162211

    That's actually quite Trumpish in the manipulations, though establishment rather than robber-baron. Big wheel in the Southern Baptist, religious, and organising sector - politics, church, judge. Supplied very untransparently with "personal assistants" rather than a salary in one arrangement. Paid off a claimant with $450k hush money in 2004. Past experience of paying people off who made claims.

    (He's dead, btw.)

    A revealing little insight on these people. There was a stained glass window of HIM, rather than say a Saint or a bible story, in a Baptist Seminary, which was removed some years ago. They aggrandise themselves, regardless of all the "Prayer for Humility" type hymns. The window style is truly gruesome:



    (Report: https://www.brnow.org/news/SWBTS-removes-controversial-stained-glass-windows/ .)
    Viewing William Dowsing in a more favourable light now.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 18,483
    Taz said:

    MelonB said:

    FPT

    On the Reform camps to concentrate migrants for deportation.

    The location methodology brings to mind a quote.

    “Own the Libtards”

    The location is half of the reason for them - to “give Them a taste of their own medicine”.

    You'd be hard pressed to find a spot to build one of these concentration camps in my own liberal minded inner London constituency but Reform would be more than welcome to give it a go if they fancy it. Good luck to them getting anyone in or out though.
    Things have so developed in the last year and a half that the fact Reform is promising to build concentration camps is now marginally less toxic than the fact Reform is doing things like Donald Trump.
    I don’t approve of this policy at all but calling them concentration camps is not only absurd it also diminishes the reality of actual concentration camps and those who lost their lives in them.

    Let's see, they've not been built yet. Personally I like to get ahead of things and form opinions based on where we are heading, not where we are right now. This probably comes from working in financial markets. Reform is trying to take us somewhere pretty dark IMHO. I'm not going to sit around and wait until my family is rounded up and put in one of these definitely not concentration camps before I raise any objections.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 22,877

    Dawkins branching out into lit crit now.

    Richard Dawkins
    @RichardDawkins
    ·
    5 Jun 2021
    Kafka’s Metamorphosis is called a major work of literature. Why? If it’s SF it’s bad SF. If, like Animal Farm, it’s an allegory, an allegory of what? Scholarly answers range from pretentious Freudian to far-fetched feminist. I don’t get it. Where are the Emperor’s clothes?


    A genine lol reply to puncture his ever increasing self importance.

    Moose Allain Ꙭ
    @MooseAllain
    Wondering if anyone else has been affected by any of the issues in Kafka's The Metamorphosis? At the moment I'm just putting out feelers.

    Some things never change:


  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 47,920
    dixiedean said:

    The most interesting feature of this Reform announcement is that they seem to have abandoned attacking the Labour government in favour of the Greens. As have the Mail, Express. etc.

    Leave 'em Nige, they're not wurf it.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 18,483
    Taz said:

    MelonB said:

    Taz said:

    MelonB said:

    FPT

    On the Reform camps to concentrate migrants for deportation.

    The location methodology brings to mind a quote.

    “Own the Libtards”

    The location is half of the reason for them - to “give Them a taste of their own medicine”.

    You'd be hard pressed to find a spot to build one of these concentration camps in my own liberal minded inner London constituency but Reform would be more than welcome to give it a go if they fancy it. Good luck to them getting anyone in or out though.
    Things have so developed in the last year and a half that the fact Reform is promising to build concentration camps is now marginally less toxic than the fact Reform is doing things like Donald Trump.
    I don’t approve of this policy at all but calling them concentration camps is not only absurd it also diminishes the reality of actual concentration camps and those who lost their lives in them.

    Invented by the British

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Boer_War_concentration_camps

    But my point is the biggest toxicity in this announcement is the MAGA-style partisanship.
    Yeah I know it was the brits who invented it but thanks anyway.

    The MAGA stuff with reform isn’t new but a vote loser for them

    I’d see it probably more like internment than the industrial extermination of people
    That's what concentration camps were built for. The death camps only came later.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 63,554

    Taz said:

    MelonB said:

    FPT

    On the Reform camps to concentrate migrants for deportation.

    The location methodology brings to mind a quote.

    “Own the Libtards”

    The location is half of the reason for them - to “give Them a taste of their own medicine”.

    You'd be hard pressed to find a spot to build one of these concentration camps in my own liberal minded inner London constituency but Reform would be more than welcome to give it a go if they fancy it. Good luck to them getting anyone in or out though.
    Things have so developed in the last year and a half that the fact Reform is promising to build concentration camps is now marginally less toxic than the fact Reform is doing things like Donald Trump.
    I don’t approve of this policy at all but calling them concentration camps is not only absurd it also diminishes the reality of actual concentration camps and those who lost their lives in them.

    Let's see, they've not been built yet. Personally I like to get ahead of things and form opinions based on where we are heading, not where we are right now. This probably comes from working in financial markets. Reform is trying to take us somewhere pretty dark IMHO. I'm not going to sit around and wait until my family is rounded up and put in one of these definitely not concentration camps before I raise any objections.
    When their policies fail, as they demonstrably will, will Reform moderate their actions. Or become more radical?

    In the case of housing large groups of people in confined spaces, the lesson of the Boer War is that without discipline, careful planning, funding and organisation, the results rapidly become disastrous. Even if that wasn't the intention.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 47,920
    edited May 4
    Taz said:

    MelonB said:

    Taz said:

    MelonB said:

    FPT

    On the Reform camps to concentrate migrants for deportation.

    The location methodology brings to mind a quote.

    “Own the Libtards”

    The location is half of the reason for them - to “give Them a taste of their own medicine”.

    You'd be hard pressed to find a spot to build one of these concentration camps in my own liberal minded inner London constituency but Reform would be more than welcome to give it a go if they fancy it. Good luck to them getting anyone in or out though.
    Things have so developed in the last year and a half that the fact Reform is promising to build concentration camps is now marginally less toxic than the fact Reform is doing things like Donald Trump.
    I don’t approve of this policy at all but calling them concentration camps is not only absurd it also diminishes the reality of actual concentration camps and those who lost their lives in them.

    Invented by the British

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Boer_War_concentration_camps

    But my point is the biggest toxicity in this announcement is the MAGA-style partisanship.
    Yeah I know it was the brits who invented it but thanks anyway.

    The MAGA stuff with reform isn’t new but a vote loser for them

    I’d see it probably more like internment than the industrial extermination of people
    Actually I think the Spanish in Cuba were the first to do it and coin the phrase.

    Edit: in fact they called the policy reconcentración.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,542
    edited May 4
    Taz said:

    MelonB said:

    FPT

    On the Reform camps to concentrate migrants for deportation.

    The location methodology brings to mind a quote.

    “Own the Libtards”

    The location is half of the reason for them - to “give Them a taste of their own medicine”.

    You'd be hard pressed to find a spot to build one of these concentration camps in my own liberal minded inner London constituency but Reform would be more than welcome to give it a go if they fancy it. Good luck to them getting anyone in or out though.
    Things have so developed in the last year and a half that the fact Reform is promising to build concentration camps is now marginally less toxic than the fact Reform is doing things like Donald Trump.
    I don’t approve of this policy at all but calling them concentration camps is not only absurd it also diminishes the reality of actual concentration camps and those who lost their lives in them.
    Four points:

    1 - The location thing is juvenile and revealing, and smacks of a deliberate knee jerk. I'm not sure if that will be a political net plus.

    2 - I thought that they had been noisily complaining about use of "camps" (eg the demonstrations at the former RAF bases). Said demonstrations then moved on to Jenrick's "migrant hotels" then to "migrant HMOs". Interpretation: the point is the opportunity to complain for attention, rather than fix the problem.

    3 - Zia Yusuf lays out that the "camps" will be used to "hold them for a couple of weeks until deportation". Has he explained how he is going to enfoirce deportations within a couple of weeks, both from a "legal" point of view, and a "persuading countries (if they can be identified) to accept them back point of views?

    4 - If they are not concentration camps, they will turn into them when the demanded timescale is shown to be a fantasy - just as has happened for Trump's camps run by ICE. I think that these camps, and the people who have died in them, will come back to haunt Trump and his senior ministers should the USA surviveve as a constitutional democracy.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 18,483

    Taz said:

    MelonB said:

    FPT

    On the Reform camps to concentrate migrants for deportation.

    The location methodology brings to mind a quote.

    “Own the Libtards”

    The location is half of the reason for them - to “give Them a taste of their own medicine”.

    You'd be hard pressed to find a spot to build one of these concentration camps in my own liberal minded inner London constituency but Reform would be more than welcome to give it a go if they fancy it. Good luck to them getting anyone in or out though.
    Things have so developed in the last year and a half that the fact Reform is promising to build concentration camps is now marginally less toxic than the fact Reform is doing things like Donald Trump.
    I don’t approve of this policy at all but calling them concentration camps is not only absurd it also diminishes the reality of actual concentration camps and those who lost their lives in them.

    Let's see, they've not been built yet. Personally I like to get ahead of things and form opinions based on where we are heading, not where we are right now. This probably comes from working in financial markets. Reform is trying to take us somewhere pretty dark IMHO. I'm not going to sit around and wait until my family is rounded up and put in one of these definitely not concentration camps before I raise any objections.
    When their policies fail, as they demonstrably will, will Reform moderate their actions. Or become more radical?

    In the case of housing large groups of people in confined spaces, the lesson of the Boer War is that without discipline, careful planning, funding and organisation, the results rapidly become disastrous. Even if that wasn't the intention.
    Well yeah, you only put people who you don't give a shit about in them so of course they rapidly become hell holes. This is a basic lesson of human history: never ignore the golden rule.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 63,554

    Taz said:

    MelonB said:

    Taz said:

    MelonB said:

    FPT

    On the Reform camps to concentrate migrants for deportation.

    The location methodology brings to mind a quote.

    “Own the Libtards”

    The location is half of the reason for them - to “give Them a taste of their own medicine”.

    You'd be hard pressed to find a spot to build one of these concentration camps in my own liberal minded inner London constituency but Reform would be more than welcome to give it a go if they fancy it. Good luck to them getting anyone in or out though.
    Things have so developed in the last year and a half that the fact Reform is promising to build concentration camps is now marginally less toxic than the fact Reform is doing things like Donald Trump.
    I don’t approve of this policy at all but calling them concentration camps is not only absurd it also diminishes the reality of actual concentration camps and those who lost their lives in them.

    Invented by the British

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Boer_War_concentration_camps

    But my point is the biggest toxicity in this announcement is the MAGA-style partisanship.
    Yeah I know it was the brits who invented it but thanks anyway.

    The MAGA stuff with reform isn’t new but a vote loser for them

    I’d see it probably more like internment than the industrial extermination of people
    Actually I think the Spanish in Cuba were the first to do it and coin the phrase.

    Edit: in fact they called the policy reconcentración.
    And the Germans, at Shark Island in Namibia, that took the concept and used it for deliberate killing.

    {Göringstrasse etc}
  • GarethoftheVale2GarethoftheVale2 Posts: 2,536
    Burnham's problem is he needs to pass through 7 gates to become PM

    1) He needs a seat to become available
    2) He needs the byelection to be scheduled for as soon as possible
    3) He needs the NEC to overturn their ban on him standing
    4) He needs to be selected for the seat
    5) He needs to win the byelection
    6) He needs any Labour leadership contest to happen after he is back in parliament
    7) He needs to win the leadership contest

    The hardest ones are 2,3,6 as they are dependent on what his political opponents do. It's not in the interests of the Starmer faction to allow him to stand and it's not in the interests of other contenders like Streeting for a contest to be delayed.

  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 9,247

    Taz said:

    MelonB said:

    Taz said:

    MelonB said:

    FPT

    On the Reform camps to concentrate migrants for deportation.

    The location methodology brings to mind a quote.

    “Own the Libtards”

    The location is half of the reason for them - to “give Them a taste of their own medicine”.

    You'd be hard pressed to find a spot to build one of these concentration camps in my own liberal minded inner London constituency but Reform would be more than welcome to give it a go if they fancy it. Good luck to them getting anyone in or out though.
    Things have so developed in the last year and a half that the fact Reform is promising to build concentration camps is now marginally less toxic than the fact Reform is doing things like Donald Trump.
    I don’t approve of this policy at all but calling them concentration camps is not only absurd it also diminishes the reality of actual concentration camps and those who lost their lives in them.

    Invented by the British

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Boer_War_concentration_camps

    But my point is the biggest toxicity in this announcement is the MAGA-style partisanship.
    Yeah I know it was the brits who invented it but thanks anyway.

    The MAGA stuff with reform isn’t new but a vote loser for them

    I’d see it probably more like internment than the industrial extermination of people
    That's what concentration camps were built for. The death camps only came later.
    Yes, but when someone (Tim in this case, not you) mentions them in this context it's a dogwhistle for "death camps". Knowing or unknowing.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 28,797
    Taz said:

    MelonB said:

    FPT

    On the Reform camps to concentrate migrants for deportation.

    The location methodology brings to mind a quote.

    “Own the Libtards”

    The location is half of the reason for them - to “give Them a taste of their own medicine”.

    You'd be hard pressed to find a spot to build one of these concentration camps in my own liberal minded inner London constituency but Reform would be more than welcome to give it a go if they fancy it. Good luck to them getting anyone in or out though.
    Things have so developed in the last year and a half that the fact Reform is promising to build concentration camps is now marginally less toxic than the fact Reform is doing things like Donald Trump.
    I don’t approve of this policy at all but calling them concentration camps is not only absurd it also diminishes the reality of actual concentration camps and those who lost their lives in them.

    Technically, the phrase "concentration camps" refers to enclosed settlements created to remove a population from the countryside and place them in more secure(d) concentrated (hence the name) areas where they can be policed. The deaths arise from poor medical care and sanitation. The British did this in South Africa in the late 19/early 20th and in Malaya/Malaysia (I forget which) in the 1950s(?)

    You can also have your classic Soviet work camps, where you can exploit natural resources in appalling conditions by importing huge swaths of populations to live there in appalling conditions, where they work briefly until they die, worn-out and malnourished

    The Nazis refined this where the work is pointless (moving heavy stones from one place to another, then bringing them back) and then bought this to its ultimate expression in the death camp, where the inmates were killed directly as quickly as possible upon arrival.

    So there you are: British camps, Soviet camps, Nazi camps. A neat little hierarchy of murder.

    So for the Reform camps, you'd need a new phrase. I suggest "American camps" or "camps on the American model", where people are moved en masse to a large facility with poor care and no legal rights, pending their deportation.

  • nico67nico67 Posts: 8,325
    Of course it could be that the US wouldn’t admit to their vessel being hit as then they’d have to respond .
  • MelonBMelonB Posts: 17,363
    carnforth said:

    Taz said:

    MelonB said:

    Taz said:

    MelonB said:

    FPT

    On the Reform camps to concentrate migrants for deportation.

    The location methodology brings to mind a quote.

    “Own the Libtards”

    The location is half of the reason for them - to “give Them a taste of their own medicine”.

    You'd be hard pressed to find a spot to build one of these concentration camps in my own liberal minded inner London constituency but Reform would be more than welcome to give it a go if they fancy it. Good luck to them getting anyone in or out though.
    Things have so developed in the last year and a half that the fact Reform is promising to build concentration camps is now marginally less toxic than the fact Reform is doing things like Donald Trump.
    I don’t approve of this policy at all but calling them concentration camps is not only absurd it also diminishes the reality of actual concentration camps and those who lost their lives in them.

    Invented by the British

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Boer_War_concentration_camps

    But my point is the biggest toxicity in this announcement is the MAGA-style partisanship.
    Yeah I know it was the brits who invented it but thanks anyway.

    The MAGA stuff with reform isn’t new but a vote loser for them

    I’d see it probably more like internment than the industrial extermination of people
    That's what concentration camps were built for. The death camps only came later.
    Yes, but when someone (Tim in this case, not you) mentions them in this context it's a dogwhistle for "death camps". Knowing or unknowing.
    “Tim” was actually referencing the use of that term further up-thread.

    But yes, the performative nastiness from Reform, including the implicit dehumanisation in their promise to “impose” what they see as an alien blight on their political enemies, means I am not as laid back about the direction of travel as many on here.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 28,797

    Iran hits US warship with two missiles near Strait of Hormuz, Iranian state media says

    https://news.sky.com/story/iran-war-latest-trump-blockade-strait-of-hormuz-lebanon-13509565

    And back to my break.

    Claim seems sketchy:
    https://bsky.app/profile/shipwreck75.bsky.social/post/3mkzhwr2hak27

    That said I do like this method of fighting a war where everyone just pretends they shot the other side.
    The Content Wars
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 8,325
    Not sure who I hate more Yusuf or Farage .

    Both are odious cxnts but Yusuf is particularly smug .
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 47,920
    viewcode said:

    Taz said:

    MelonB said:

    FPT

    On the Reform camps to concentrate migrants for deportation.

    The location methodology brings to mind a quote.

    “Own the Libtards”

    The location is half of the reason for them - to “give Them a taste of their own medicine”.

    You'd be hard pressed to find a spot to build one of these concentration camps in my own liberal minded inner London constituency but Reform would be more than welcome to give it a go if they fancy it. Good luck to them getting anyone in or out though.
    Things have so developed in the last year and a half that the fact Reform is promising to build concentration camps is now marginally less toxic than the fact Reform is doing things like Donald Trump.
    I don’t approve of this policy at all but calling them concentration camps is not only absurd it also diminishes the reality of actual concentration camps and those who lost their lives in them.

    Technically, the phrase "concentration camps" refers to enclosed settlements created to remove a population from the countryside and place them in more secure(d) concentrated (hence the name) areas where they can be policed. The deaths arise from poor medical care and sanitation. The British did this in South Africa in the late 19/early 20th and in Malaya/Malaysia (I forget which) in the 1950s(?)

    You can also have your classic Soviet work camps, where you can exploit natural resources in appalling conditions by importing huge swaths of populations to live there in appalling conditions, where they work briefly until they die, worn-out and malnourished

    The Nazis refined this where the work is pointless (moving heavy stones from one place to another, then bringing them back) and then bought this to its ultimate expression in the death camp, where the inmates were killed directly as quickly as possible upon arrival.

    So there you are: British camps, Soviet camps, Nazi camps. A neat little hierarchy of murder.

    So for the Reform camps, you'd need a new phrase. I suggest "American camps" or "camps on the American model", where people are moved en masse to a large facility with poor care and no legal rights, pending their deportation.

    As a nod to Trump's Germanic heritage, Trumpslager.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 47,920
    nico67 said:

    Not sure who I hate more Yusuf or Farage .

    Both are odious cxnts but Yusuf is particularly smug .

    At least Farage is an (eventually) elected cnut, Yusuf otoh is an entirely unelected cnut.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,193
    nico67 said:

    Of course it could be that the US wouldn’t admit to their vessel being hit as then they’d have to respond .

    Iran just downgraded it's claim to fired in the direction of the US warships
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,542
    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    There have been a few Spectator debates (in the Round House at the British Museum by the look of it) about (essentially) "Reform or Conservative?"

    This one is Clare Coutinho, Nick Timothy, Matt Goodwin, and Danny Kruger.

    https://www.youtube.com/live/kajmqn2yZSI

    7 minute speeches, and quite interesting. To me the best was Clare Coutinho, who actually addressed the topic imo. The reform side were making, to my ear, Ref UK event speeches to the wrong audience.

    One point I should have mentioned. Matt Goodwin explicitly defines Reform as "National Conservative" in his speech, which I have not heard previously.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,193
    nico67 said:

    Not sure who I hate more Yusuf or Farage .

    Both are odious cxnts but Yusuf is particularly smug .

    Add in Polanski and you have the hat trick
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 19,661
    edited May 4
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    MelonB said:

    FPT

    On the Reform camps to concentrate migrants for deportation.

    The location methodology brings to mind a quote.

    “Own the Libtards”

    The location is half of the reason for them - to “give Them a taste of their own medicine”.

    You'd be hard pressed to find a spot to build one of these concentration camps in my own liberal minded inner London constituency but Reform would be more than welcome to give it a go if they fancy it. Good luck to them getting anyone in or out though.
    Things have so developed in the last year and a half that the fact Reform is promising to build concentration camps is now marginally less toxic than the fact Reform is doing things like Donald Trump.
    I don’t approve of this policy at all but calling them concentration camps is not only absurd it also diminishes the reality of actual concentration camps and those who lost their lives in them.
    Four points:

    1 - The location thing is juvenile and revealing, and smacks of a deliberate knee jerk. I'm not sure if that will be a political net plus.

    2 - I thought that they had been noisily complaining about use of "camps" (eg the demonstrations at the former RAF bases). Said demonstrations then moved on to Jenrick's "migrant hotels" then to "migrant HMOs". Interpretation: the point is the opportunity to complain for attention, rather than fix the problem.

    3 - Zia Yusuf lays out that the "camps" will be used to "hold them for a couple of weeks until deportation". Has he explained how he is going to enfoirce deportations within a couple of weeks, both from a "legal" point of view, and a "persuading countries (if they can be identified) to accept them back point of views?

    4 - If they are not concentration camps, they will turn into them when the demanded timescale is shown to be a fantasy - just as has happened for Trump's camps run by ICE. I think that these camps, and the people who have died in them, will come back to haunt Trump and his senior ministers should the USA surviveve as a constitutional democracy.
    All good points but I think we're giving Reform too much credit for a thought out, if wicked, policy.

    Basically this is step 2 in a focus group driven campaign point

    Step 1
    Focus group; Do something about all those illegal immigrants.
    Reform: We will abrogate all human rights and planning laws so our government can arbitrarily set up detention centres wherever we want.

    Step 2
    Focus group: But I don't want these centres anywhere near me and now you tell me I can't do anything to stop it.
    Reform: Thanks to our new arbitrary powers we commit to putting these centres away from anyone who voted for them
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 9,247
    MelonB said:

    carnforth said:

    Taz said:

    MelonB said:

    Taz said:

    MelonB said:

    FPT

    On the Reform camps to concentrate migrants for deportation.

    The location methodology brings to mind a quote.

    “Own the Libtards”

    The location is half of the reason for them - to “give Them a taste of their own medicine”.

    You'd be hard pressed to find a spot to build one of these concentration camps in my own liberal minded inner London constituency but Reform would be more than welcome to give it a go if they fancy it. Good luck to them getting anyone in or out though.
    Things have so developed in the last year and a half that the fact Reform is promising to build concentration camps is now marginally less toxic than the fact Reform is doing things like Donald Trump.
    I don’t approve of this policy at all but calling them concentration camps is not only absurd it also diminishes the reality of actual concentration camps and those who lost their lives in them.

    Invented by the British

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Boer_War_concentration_camps

    But my point is the biggest toxicity in this announcement is the MAGA-style partisanship.
    Yeah I know it was the brits who invented it but thanks anyway.

    The MAGA stuff with reform isn’t new but a vote loser for them

    I’d see it probably more like internment than the industrial extermination of people
    That's what concentration camps were built for. The death camps only came later.
    Yes, but when someone (Tim in this case, not you) mentions them in this context it's a dogwhistle for "death camps". Knowing or unknowing.
    “Tim” was actually referencing the use of that term further up-thread.

    But yes, the performative nastiness from Reform, including the implicit dehumanisation in their promise to “impose” what they see as an alien blight on their political enemies, means I am not as laid back about the direction of travel as many on here.
    Sorry for the doxxing! I hadn't twigged you'd re-anonymised...
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 32,602
    nico67 said:

    Of course it could be that the US wouldn’t admit to their vessel being hit as then they’d have to respond .

    nico67 said:

    Of course it could be that the US wouldn’t admit to their vessel being hit as then they’d have to respond .

    Or it could be that Iran was impelled to say this when Trump said he'd open the Straits for "humanitarian reasons".
    Some days after he said he'd close them.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 9,134

    Burnham's problem is he needs to pass through 7 gates to become PM

    1) He needs a seat to become available
    2) He needs the byelection to be scheduled for as soon as possible
    3) He needs the NEC to overturn their ban on him standing
    4) He needs to be selected for the seat
    5) He needs to win the byelection
    6) He needs any Labour leadership contest to happen after he is back in parliament
    7) He needs to win the leadership contest

    The hardest ones are 2,3,6 as they are dependent on what his political opponents do. It's not in the interests of the Starmer faction to allow him to stand and it's not in the interests of other contenders like Streeting for a contest to be delayed.

    The timing is an interesting factor here. I agree that Streeting gains little from delaying. On the other hand, if Starmer decides to resign with a transition period it’s not inconceivable that a timetable is agreed for a departure and contest that could - in theory - give Burnham time to move.

    Presumably if Streeting has the signatures the contest is immediately started and must conclude within a fairly prompt timetable?

    Again, if that’s the case and we do think Streeting will go for it, look for contenders who could enter the fray as unity candidates - candidates who may not have indicated any ambition to be leader but who might be tempted to throw their hat in the ring if the cabinet/party want a unifier. Think the Milibands, Coopers, Healeys of this world.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 8,325

    nico67 said:

    Not sure who I hate more Yusuf or Farage .

    Both are odious cxnts but Yusuf is particularly smug .

    Add in Polanski and you have the hat trick
    Polanski doesn’t come close to them . I don’t hate him , I just think the Green policies are in la la land and he made a huge error in criticising the police .
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,388
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    MelonB said:

    FPT

    On the Reform camps to concentrate migrants for deportation.

    The location methodology brings to mind a quote.

    “Own the Libtards”

    The location is half of the reason for them - to “give Them a taste of their own medicine”.

    You'd be hard pressed to find a spot to build one of these concentration camps in my own liberal minded inner London constituency but Reform would be more than welcome to give it a go if they fancy it. Good luck to them getting anyone in or out though.
    Things have so developed in the last year and a half that the fact Reform is promising to build concentration camps is now marginally less toxic than the fact Reform is doing things like Donald Trump.
    I don’t approve of this policy at all but calling them concentration camps is not only absurd it also diminishes the reality of actual concentration camps and those who lost their lives in them.
    Four points:

    1 - The location thing is juvenile and revealing, and smacks of a deliberate knee jerk. I'm not sure if that will be a political net plus.

    2 - I thought that they had been noisily complaining about use of "camps" (eg the demonstrations at the former RAF bases). Said demonstrations then moved on to Jenrick's "migrant hotels" then to "migrant HMOs". Interpretation: the point is the opportunity to complain for attention, rather than fix the problem.

    3 - Zia Yusuf lays out that the "camps" will be used to "hold them for a couple of weeks until deportation". Has he explained how he is going to enfoirce deportations within a couple of weeks, both from a "legal" point of view, and a "persuading countries (if they can be identified) to accept them back point of views?

    4 - If they are not concentration camps, they will turn into them when the demanded timescale is shown to be a fantasy - just as has happened for Trump's camps run by ICE. I think that these camps, and the people who have died in them, will come back to haunt Trump and his senior ministers should the USA surviveve as a constitutional democracy.
    5 - what is the cost of all this deportation and internment? Have they even begun to cost it?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 28,797

    carnforth said:

    Taz said:

    MelonB said:

    Taz said:

    MelonB said:

    FPT

    On the Reform camps to concentrate migrants for deportation.

    The location methodology brings to mind a quote.

    “Own the Libtards”

    The location is half of the reason for them - to “give Them a taste of their own medicine”.

    You'd be hard pressed to find a spot to build one of these concentration camps in my own liberal minded inner London constituency but Reform would be more than welcome to give it a go if they fancy it. Good luck to them getting anyone in or out though.
    Things have so developed in the last year and a half that the fact Reform is promising to build concentration camps is now marginally less toxic than the fact Reform is doing things like Donald Trump.
    I don’t approve of this policy at all but calling them concentration camps is not only absurd it also diminishes the reality of actual concentration camps and those who lost their lives in them.

    Invented by the British

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Boer_War_concentration_camps

    But my point is the biggest toxicity in this announcement is the MAGA-style partisanship.
    Yeah I know it was the brits who invented it but thanks anyway.

    The MAGA stuff with reform isn’t new but a vote loser for them

    I’d see it probably more like internment than the industrial extermination of people
    That's what concentration camps were built for. The death camps only came later.
    Yes, but when someone (Tim in this case, not you) mentions them in this context it's a dogwhistle for "death camps". Knowing or unknowing.
    I think I mentioned the term first TBH and in my case it was not intended as a dog whistle for death camps but was intended to reference concentration camps because that's what they are. Don't vote for people who fantasize about putting people in camps. I would have thought this was a fairly unambiguous lesson from history.
    Yes, I do think we tend to overlook that bit. "See the 'putting people in camps' party. Well that's bad. Don't vote for them." It should be primary school stuff, but people are forgetting that

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 32,602
    Is this the first time a Party has proposed spending huge amounts of money in an opposing parties area?
    Nigel. Spreading the love.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,193
    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    Not sure who I hate more Yusuf or Farage .

    Both are odious cxnts but Yusuf is particularly smug .

    Add in Polanski and you have the hat trick
    Polanski doesn’t come close to them . I don’t hate him , I just think the Green policies are in la la land and he made a huge error in criticising the police .
    I don't hate any of them

    All 3 are a very real threat to the stability of this country and need to be found out
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 8,325

    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    Not sure who I hate more Yusuf or Farage .

    Both are odious cxnts but Yusuf is particularly smug .

    Add in Polanski and you have the hat trick
    Polanski doesn’t come close to them . I don’t hate him , I just think the Green policies are in la la land and he made a huge error in criticising the police .
    I don't hate any of them

    All 3 are a very real threat to the stability of this country and need to be found out
    You’re a better person than me !
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 32,602
    edited May 4

    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    Not sure who I hate more Yusuf or Farage .

    Both are odious cxnts but Yusuf is particularly smug .

    Add in Polanski and you have the hat trick
    Polanski doesn’t come close to them . I don’t hate him , I just think the Green policies are in la la land and he made a huge error in criticising the police .
    I don't hate any of them

    All 3 are a very real threat to the stability of this country and need to be found out
    The country is stable?
    Food prices up by 50% in five years?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 28,797
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    There have been a few Spectator debates (in the Round House at the British Museum by the look of it) about (essentially) "Reform or Conservative?"

    This one is Clare Coutinho, Nick Timothy, Matt Goodwin, and Danny Kruger.

    https://www.youtube.com/live/kajmqn2yZSI

    7 minute speeches, and quite interesting. To me the best was Clare Coutinho, who actually addressed the topic imo. The reform side were making, to my ear, Ref UK event speeches to the wrong audience.

    One point I should have mentioned. Matt Goodwin explicitly defines Reform as "National Conservative" in his speech, which I have not heard previously.
    I think there's been a few "Unite the Right!/Divide the Right!/We are the real right!/No we are!" youtubes, and not just the mad American ones.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 63,554
    dixiedean said:

    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    Not sure who I hate more Yusuf or Farage .

    Both are odious cxnts but Yusuf is particularly smug .

    Add in Polanski and you have the hat trick
    Polanski doesn’t come close to them . I don’t hate him , I just think the Green policies are in la la land and he made a huge error in criticising the police .
    I don't hate any of them

    All 3 are a very real threat to the stability of this country and need to be found out
    The country is stable?
    Stability is relative.

    “There is a lot of ruin in a country”
  • eekeek Posts: 33,922
    dixiedean said:

    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    Not sure who I hate more Yusuf or Farage .

    Both are odious cxnts but Yusuf is particularly smug .

    Add in Polanski and you have the hat trick
    Polanski doesn’t come close to them . I don’t hate him , I just think the Green policies are in la la land and he made a huge error in criticising the police .
    I don't hate any of them

    All 3 are a very real threat to the stability of this country and need to be found out
    The country is stable?
    Food prices up by 50% in five years?
    And probably 20% minimum this year
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 59,886
    It's like the tail end of Gordon Brown all over again.

    https://x.com/PippaCrerar/status/2051238900530561480

    NEW: Labour MPs are calling for end to “endless drama” of leadership speculation, with some warning that repeated briefings about toppling Keir Starmer are putting off voters, @peterwalker99 reports.

    “All people want is a government which works, and not the endless drama. We are in a very tricky global situation, and to have this never-ending conversation about who might have a certain number of supporters feels extremely self-indulgent,” says one MP.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 23,142
    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    Not sure who I hate more Yusuf or Farage .

    Both are odious cxnts but Yusuf is particularly smug .

    Add in Polanski and you have the hat trick
    Polanski doesn’t come close to them . I don’t hate him , I just think the Green policies are in la la land and he made a huge error in criticising the police .
    Polanski's very like Mamdani and that's despite the paucity of sensible questions here from Kuinsburg.........

    I can't think of any of the three realistic alternatives who come close. I hope Polanski wins. Davey would be the only realistic alternative. If any choose a sensible new leader then everything changes but leaders matter and surely you couldn't vote for Farage Badenoch or Starmer?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayCK5lB2RV4

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 28,797
    viewcode said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning everyone.

    There have been a few Spectator debates (in the Round House at the British Museum by the look of it) about (essentially) "Reform or Conservative?"

    This one is Clare Coutinho, Nick Timothy, Matt Goodwin, and Danny Kruger.

    https://www.youtube.com/live/kajmqn2yZSI

    7 minute speeches, and quite interesting. To me the best was Clare Coutinho, who actually addressed the topic imo. The reform side were making, to my ear, Ref UK event speeches to the wrong audience.

    One point I should have mentioned. Matt Goodwin explicitly defines Reform as "National Conservative" in his speech, which I have not heard previously.
    I think there's been a few "Unite the Right!/Divide the Right!/We are the real right!/No we are!" youtubes, and not just the mad American ones.
    Here's a couple:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sKpEKTabec (Daniel Hannan, Paul Goodman, Victoria Atkins, David Davis)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDFvOWh6bvM (David Starkey and Danny Kruger)

    I haven't watched any of these so I don't know if they are any good or not.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,193
    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    Not sure who I hate more Yusuf or Farage .

    Both are odious cxnts but Yusuf is particularly smug .

    Add in Polanski and you have the hat trick
    Polanski doesn’t come close to them . I don’t hate him , I just think the Green policies are in la la land and he made a huge error in criticising the police .
    I don't hate any of them

    All 3 are a very real threat to the stability of this country and need to be found out
    You’re a better person than me !
    No of course I am not

    I just do not like hate but that does not stop me attacking their ideas
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 25,472
    Has Burnham sent someone with a tape measure round to the No. 10 flat to determine the dimensions for new curtains yet?

    The man's arrogance knows no bounds.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 29,513
    dixiedean said:

    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    Not sure who I hate more Yusuf or Farage .

    Both are odious cxnts but Yusuf is particularly smug .

    Add in Polanski and you have the hat trick
    Polanski doesn’t come close to them . I don’t hate him , I just think the Green policies are in la la land and he made a huge error in criticising the police .
    I don't hate any of them

    All 3 are a very real threat to the stability of this country and need to be found out
    The country is stable?
    Food prices up by 50% in five years?
    From very, very low to only very low.

    Five minutes at minimum wage will earn you enough to buy 400g beans and 800g bread.

    Its housing which is expensive.
  • BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 7,137

    It's like the tail end of Gordon Brown all over again.

    https://x.com/PippaCrerar/status/2051238900530561480

    NEW: Labour MPs are calling for end to “endless drama” of leadership speculation, with some warning that repeated briefings about toppling Keir Starmer are putting off voters, @peterwalker99 reports.

    “All people want is a government which works, and not the endless drama. We are in a very tricky global situation, and to have this never-ending conversation about who might have a certain number of supporters feels extremely self-indulgent,” says one MP.

    They need to lance the boil and get Streeting or Burnham in. Either would be an improvement in comms terms alone and I think this is a lot of where the government has gone wrong since day one.

    They’ve done a lot of good but nobody knows about it.

    They can get away with one new leader if that leader then holds on until 2028/2029.

    This is the best time.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,388
    There are now only two outcomes to the conflict: either the kind of wholesale destruction of Iran that Mr. Trump posited, or a settlement that will leave the government intact and empowered, and a blustering American president humiliated.

    Operation Epic Fury, Meet Operation Colossal Blunder
    https://www.nytimes.com/2026/05/04/opinion/iran-us-israel-war-drones-strait-of-hormuz.html
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,388
    There are now only two outcomes to the conflict: either the kind of wholesale destruction of Iran that Mr. Trump posited, or a settlement that will leave the government intact and empowered, and a blustering American president humiliated.

    Operation Epic Fury, Meet Operation Colossal Blunder
    https://www.nytimes.com/2026/05/04/opinion/iran-us-israel-war-drones-strait-of-hormuz.html
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 36,366
    MattW said:

    Taz said:

    MelonB said:

    FPT

    On the Reform camps to concentrate migrants for deportation.

    The location methodology brings to mind a quote.

    “Own the Libtards”

    The location is half of the reason for them - to “give Them a taste of their own medicine”.

    You'd be hard pressed to find a spot to build one of these concentration camps in my own liberal minded inner London constituency but Reform would be more than welcome to give it a go if they fancy it. Good luck to them getting anyone in or out though.
    Things have so developed in the last year and a half that the fact Reform is promising to build concentration camps is now marginally less toxic than the fact Reform is doing things like Donald Trump.
    I don’t approve of this policy at all but calling them concentration camps is not only absurd it also diminishes the reality of actual concentration camps and those who lost their lives in them.
    Four points:

    1 - The location thing is juvenile and revealing, and smacks of a deliberate knee jerk. I'm not sure if that will be a political net plus.

    2 - I thought that they had been noisily complaining about use of "camps" (eg the demonstrations at the former RAF bases). Said demonstrations then moved on to Jenrick's "migrant hotels" then to "migrant HMOs". Interpretation: the point is the opportunity to complain for attention, rather than fix the problem.

    3 - Zia Yusuf lays out that the "camps" will be used to "hold them for a couple of weeks until deportation". Has he explained how he is going to enfoirce deportations within a couple of weeks, both from a "legal" point of view, and a "persuading countries (if they can be identified) to accept them back point of views?

    4 - If they are not concentration camps, they will turn into them when the demanded timescale is shown to be a fantasy - just as has happened for Trump's camps run by ICE. I think that these camps, and the people who have died in them, will come back to haunt Trump and his senior ministers should the USA surviveve as a constitutional democracy.
    On (3) persuading countries to accept deportees, iirc blocking all visas from countries that refused has been mooted. It might not be practicable because it risks trade wars but at least someone has given it 30 seconds' thought.

    Agree on 1.
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,195

    Taz said:

    MelonB said:

    FPT

    On the Reform camps to concentrate migrants for deportation.

    The location methodology brings to mind a quote.

    “Own the Libtards”

    The location is half of the reason for them - to “give Them a taste of their own medicine”.

    You'd be hard pressed to find a spot to build one of these concentration camps in my own liberal minded inner London constituency but Reform would be more than welcome to give it a go if they fancy it. Good luck to them getting anyone in or out though.
    Things have so developed in the last year and a half that the fact Reform is promising to build concentration camps is now marginally less toxic than the fact Reform is doing things like Donald Trump.
    I don’t approve of this policy at all but calling them concentration camps is not only absurd it also diminishes the reality of actual concentration camps and those who lost their lives in them.

    Let's see, they've not been built yet. Personally I like to get ahead of things and form opinions based on where we are heading, not where we are right now. This probably comes from working in financial markets. Reform is trying to take us somewhere pretty dark IMHO. I'm not going to sit around and wait until my family is rounded up and put in one of these definitely not concentration camps before I raise any objections.
    Raise objections by all means.

    But I doubt they’ll be opening gas chambers or hiring Dr mengele for them and such melodramatic teaddle as using terms like concentration camps simply makes arguments against laughable. I’d say internment camps personally

  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,804
    MattW said:

    P-p-p-pickup an FPT:

    Nigelb said:


    Tomorrow, @TexasMonthly will be dropping a ~12,000 word story on Paul Pressler, the alleged sexual predator who remade the Southern Baptist Convention and helped ordain the marriage between the GOP and white evangelical voters. There is *a lot* in there and I hope you'll read it.
    https://x.com/RobertDownen_/status/2051060558112162211

    That's actually quite Trumpish in the manipulations, though establishment rather than robber-baron. Big wheel in the Southern Baptist, religious, and organising sector - politics, church, judge. Supplied very untransparently with "personal assistants" rather than a salary in one arrangement. Paid off a claimant with $450k hush money in 2004. Past experience of paying people off who made claims.

    (He's dead, btw.)

    A revealing little insight on these people. There was a stained glass window of HIM, rather than say a Saint or a bible story, in a Baptist Seminary, which was removed some years ago. They aggrandise themselves, regardless of all the "Prayer for Humility" type hymns. The window style is truly gruesome:



    (Report: https://www.brnow.org/news/SWBTS-removes-controversial-stained-glass-windows/ .)
    Are you sure that isn't a Gilbert and George?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 36,366

    There are now only two outcomes to the conflict: either the kind of wholesale destruction of Iran that Mr. Trump posited, or a settlement that will leave the government intact and empowered, and a blustering American president humiliated.

    Operation Epic Fury, Meet Operation Colossal Blunder
    https://www.nytimes.com/2026/05/04/opinion/iran-us-israel-war-drones-strait-of-hormuz.html

    These double postings are becoming more frequent. I got one myself this morning (or last night). Has Vanilla changed some setting or other?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 58,924

    Iran hits US warship with two missiles near Strait of Hormuz, Iranian state media says

    https://news.sky.com/story/iran-war-latest-trump-blockade-strait-of-hormuz-lebanon-13509565

    And back to my break.

    So, does that mean that the 60 days to get Congressional approval is ticking again?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 36,366
    A new leaflet has arrived from the Independents. I'm not sure anyone else has bothered, and the Indies gave us only one to share between six flats. Anyway...

    It has an exciting new bar chart, showing Indies just behind Labour and the bars are to scale! Except that shaping the top of Labour's bar into a downward arrow, and theirs into an upward arrow, makes them look the same at a casual glance.
  • BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 7,137
    Streeting has got to be second favourite on the basis he’s actually a decent communicator and isn’t despised by the public.

    He’s got a small majority in his seat but surely if Labour has any chance of winning in 2029 he’ll be able to find a safer seat if needed and if not Labour are out of government anyway.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 19,661
    edited May 4

    There are now only two outcomes to the conflict: either the kind of wholesale destruction of Iran that Mr. Trump posited, or a settlement that will leave the government intact and empowered, and a blustering American president humiliated.

    Operation Epic Fury, Meet Operation Colossal Blunder
    https://www.nytimes.com/2026/05/04/opinion/iran-us-israel-war-drones-strait-of-hormuz.html

    Even if it's outcome 1, destruction of Iran, does that mean Hormuz will be open? Because if not, the main American war aim can only be satisfied with outcome 2.
  • BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 7,137
    edited May 4
    Starmer will be looked back on a lot better in twenty years on the basis he made the biggest call right.

    If he’d gone with Badenoch or Farage’s advice Labour would be polling under 10% now.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 55,435
    MelonB said:

    Taz said:

    MelonB said:

    FPT

    On the Reform camps to concentrate migrants for deportation.

    The location methodology brings to mind a quote.

    “Own the Libtards”

    The location is half of the reason for them - to “give Them a taste of their own medicine”.

    You'd be hard pressed to find a spot to build one of these concentration camps in my own liberal minded inner London constituency but Reform would be more than welcome to give it a go if they fancy it. Good luck to them getting anyone in or out though.
    Things have so developed in the last year and a half that the fact Reform is promising to build concentration camps is now marginally less toxic than the fact Reform is doing things like Donald Trump.
    I don’t approve of this policy at all but calling them concentration camps is not only absurd it also diminishes the reality of actual concentration camps and those who lost their lives in them.

    Invented by the British

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Boer_War_concentration_camps

    But my point is the biggest toxicity in this announcement is the MAGA-style partisanship.
    That episode popularised, if that’s the right word, the term in the English language, but the Spanish were at it in Cuba in the 1890s and I believe there may be even earlier examples, so UK/South Africa didn’t invent the practice
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 79,502
    FF43 said:

    There are now only two outcomes to the conflict: either the kind of wholesale destruction of Iran that Mr. Trump posited, or a settlement that will leave the government intact and empowered, and a blustering American president humiliated.

    Operation Epic Fury, Meet Operation Colossal Blunder
    https://www.nytimes.com/2026/05/04/opinion/iran-us-israel-war-drones-strait-of-hormuz.html

    Even if it's outcome 1, destruction of Iran, does that mean Hormuz will be open? Because if not, the main American war aim can only be satisfied with outcome 2.
    The main American war aim is to smother the Epstein files.

    That can only be achieved by a prolonged war. I don’t think it would even be guaranteed by a complete victory.

    Of course, after the Israeli elections the pressure from Jerusalem is likely to slacken, as either it will have worked and Netanyahu will still be in power, or it will have failed and he will be in prison. That may help, but Trump is committed now so then again it may not.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 19,661
    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:

    There are now only two outcomes to the conflict: either the kind of wholesale destruction of Iran that Mr. Trump posited, or a settlement that will leave the government intact and empowered, and a blustering American president humiliated.

    Operation Epic Fury, Meet Operation Colossal Blunder
    https://www.nytimes.com/2026/05/04/opinion/iran-us-israel-war-drones-strait-of-hormuz.html

    Even if it's outcome 1, destruction of Iran, does that mean Hormuz will be open? Because if not, the main American war aim can only be satisfied with outcome 2.
    The main American war aim is to smother the Epstein files.

    That can only be achieved by a prolonged war. I don’t think it would even be guaranteed by a complete victory.

    Of course, after the Israeli elections the pressure from Jerusalem is likely to slacken, as either it will have worked and Netanyahu will still be in power, or it will have failed and he will be in prison. That may help, but Trump is committed now so then again it may not.
    Yes. Never forget that...

    But now trump needs distraction from the Iran disaster.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 36,366
    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:

    There are now only two outcomes to the conflict: either the kind of wholesale destruction of Iran that Mr. Trump posited, or a settlement that will leave the government intact and empowered, and a blustering American president humiliated.

    Operation Epic Fury, Meet Operation Colossal Blunder
    https://www.nytimes.com/2026/05/04/opinion/iran-us-israel-war-drones-strait-of-hormuz.html

    Even if it's outcome 1, destruction of Iran, does that mean Hormuz will be open? Because if not, the main American war aim can only be satisfied with outcome 2.
    The main American war aim is to smother the Epstein files.

    That can only be achieved by a prolonged war. I don’t think it would even be guaranteed by a complete victory.

    Of course, after the Israeli elections the pressure from Jerusalem is likely to slacken, as either it will have worked and Netanyahu will still be in power, or it will have failed and he will be in prison. That may help, but Trump is committed now so then again it may not.
    Yes. Never forget that...

    But now trump needs distraction from the Iran disaster.
    Cuba? Greenland? The destruction of Nato as he pulls troops out of Germany (and presumably gives up leases on bases if this is as ill-thought through as everything else)?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 58,924
    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:

    There are now only two outcomes to the conflict: either the kind of wholesale destruction of Iran that Mr. Trump posited, or a settlement that will leave the government intact and empowered, and a blustering American president humiliated.

    Operation Epic Fury, Meet Operation Colossal Blunder
    https://www.nytimes.com/2026/05/04/opinion/iran-us-israel-war-drones-strait-of-hormuz.html

    Even if it's outcome 1, destruction of Iran, does that mean Hormuz will be open? Because if not, the main American war aim can only be satisfied with outcome 2.
    The main American war aim is to smother the Epstein files.

    That can only be achieved by a prolonged war. I don’t think it would even be guaranteed by a complete victory.

    Of course, after the Israeli elections the pressure from Jerusalem is likely to slacken, as either it will have worked and Netanyahu will still be in power, or it will have failed and he will be in prison. That may help, but Trump is committed now so then again it may not.
    Yes. Never forget that...

    But now trump needs distraction from the Iran disaster.
    I know an old woman who swallowed a fly...
This discussion has been closed.