Skip to content

Why the mainstream parties will be swept aside next week – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 13,175
edited April 29 in General
Why the mainstream parties will be swept aside next week – politicalbetting.com

On a recent thread a very valid question was asked. These voters who the polls and betting markets suggest will vote Reform and Green next week: “what do these people actually want?”

Read the full story here

«13

Comments

  • eekeek Posts: 33,926
    First as Reform will be next week
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 63,562
    The answer Shirley, is to shout “SHUT UP, DESPICABLE SCUM” even louder?

    I am curious about when the first proposals to curtail democracy as “enabling extremism” will be made.
  • Quite right. People have given up on parties they know have not, and will not, improve their lives. In the north of England I expect Labour to get virtually obliterated.

    That said, I'm bearish on Reform's performance in Scotland. I expect them to underperform the polls by a notable margin.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,705
    The Guardian had an excellent article on this theme a few months back

    ‘You’d be ashamed to bring someone here’: The struggling billionaire-owned high street that shows Reform’s road to No 10
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/ng-interactive/2026/jan/28/newton-aycliffe-county-durham-high-street-decline

    This is both emblematic of, and a significant cause of political disillusionment.

    Government has fiddled round the margins for a decade or more, but has offered no real solutions. And local government simply doesn't have the resources to address the decline of our regional towns.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 60,426
    Header Typo Alert - "What do these people actually WANT...."
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,219
    Don’t disagree with a lot of this but Reform council in Durham being a failure.

    Nope.

    It’s fine.

    Kent may be, others may be, but Durham is doing just fine. So far.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 60,426
    Nigelb said:

    The Guardian had an excellent article on this theme a few months back

    ‘You’d be ashamed to bring someone here’: The struggling billionaire-owned high street that shows Reform’s road to No 10
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/ng-interactive/2026/jan/28/newton-aycliffe-county-durham-high-street-decline

    This is both emblematic of, and a significant cause of political disillusionment.

    Government has fiddled round the margins for a decade or more, but has offered no real solutions. And local government simply doesn't have the resources to address the decline of our regional towns.

    A decade or more???

    What were Labour doing for these areas in the Seventies?
  • AugustusCarp2AugustusCarp2 Posts: 649
    (Anecdote alert!) Rudimentary canvassing in my area is failing to identify significant numbers of ReformUK voters. That doesn't mean that they don't exist - rather, they will come from the large segment of the population who habitually have not voted for many years - particularly in the locals. That's where the surprises are going to come from next week - and I think it fits in exacty with RochdalePioneer's thesis. Yes, they are fed up and depressed and angry - but in England most of them will be "new" voters.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,247
    I completely agree with Rochdale's header and yet. Democracy is healthier when more people are involved. Part of what has gone wrong with politics is the people who can't be arsed with it, who treat it like a phone contract, continually switching suppliers until they find one they're happy with.

    Politics is hard. Politics involves compromise. People who simply vote for nice things and not to have anything bad are part of the problem.

    I've been plenty critical of lots of politicians for not leading. For not being honest. But democracy dies if people act as though it is something done only by politicians. It needs the voters to cop on and reject the same old clichés and platitudes and easy answers.

    I can understand people feeling desperate and searching around for change, but they need to have a bit of self-respect and responsibility too.
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,219

    Nigelb said:

    The Guardian had an excellent article on this theme a few months back

    ‘You’d be ashamed to bring someone here’: The struggling billionaire-owned high street that shows Reform’s road to No 10
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/ng-interactive/2026/jan/28/newton-aycliffe-county-durham-high-street-decline

    This is both emblematic of, and a significant cause of political disillusionment.

    Government has fiddled round the margins for a decade or more, but has offered no real solutions. And local government simply doesn't have the resources to address the decline of our regional towns.

    A decade or more???

    What were Labour doing for these areas in the Seventies?
    Taking their votes for granted as they used to weigh the votes there not count them, and do fuck all for those areas as they always voted Labour anyway.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,789
    Easy to feel disheartened by these antisemitic attacks taking place in the UK but let's not feel ashamed. It's Israel not Britain that's to blame.

    Right?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 23,218
    Taz said:

    Don’t disagree with a lot of this but Reform council in Durham being a failure.

    Nope.

    It’s fine.

    Kent may be, others may be, but Durham is doing just fine. So far.

    Reform remind of student union elections. Candidates promise loads of stuff, get elected and are then shown exactly how things are and what they can actually do by the adults in the room (i.e. the university staff). For Reform - it will be seeing the constraints on what can be achieved. One hopes that for most it will be (a) a shock and (b) a realisation that its hard.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,695
    SpaceX Falcon Heavy rocket due to launch in 10m.

    https://x.com/spacex/status/2049487420177977847
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,219

    Taz said:

    Don’t disagree with a lot of this but Reform council in Durham being a failure.

    Nope.

    It’s fine.

    Kent may be, others may be, but Durham is doing just fine. So far.

    Reform remind of student union elections. Candidates promise loads of stuff, get elected and are then shown exactly how things are and what they can actually do by the adults in the room (i.e. the university staff). For Reform - it will be seeing the constraints on what can be achieved. One hopes that for most it will be (a) a shock and (b) a realisation that its hard.
    Similar to the Greens then.

    But I don’t see how Reform in Durham are a failure or one of the two worst Reform councils in the U.K.

    They are doing fine. AFAIC.
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,219
    Sandpit said:

    SpaceX Falcon Heavy rocket due to launch in 10m.

    https://x.com/spacex/status/2049487420177977847

    This Spake Zarathustra
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 3,151
    I've got a vague memory of there being some large organisation that used to distribute regeneration funds to the most deprived areas independent of the UK govt.... Perhaps @Fishing knows what it was?

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2016/06/20/cornwall-and-wales-benefited-from-eu/#:~:text=In recent years, the European,received them in the past.

    It's not just easy, it is unfortunately the truth to a large extent.
    Politicians may well need to ask themselves how they get voters to stop voting against their own interests, but they're battling right wing media operations promoting simplistic, xenophobic solutions
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 23,218
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Don’t disagree with a lot of this but Reform council in Durham being a failure.

    Nope.

    It’s fine.

    Kent may be, others may be, but Durham is doing just fine. So far.

    Reform remind of student union elections. Candidates promise loads of stuff, get elected and are then shown exactly how things are and what they can actually do by the adults in the room (i.e. the university staff). For Reform - it will be seeing the constraints on what can be achieved. One hopes that for most it will be (a) a shock and (b) a realisation that its hard.
    Similar to the Greens then.

    But I don’t see how Reform in Durham are a failure or one of the two worst Reform councils in the U.K.

    They are doing fine. AFAIC.
    Yes - likely they are the type who have come in and seen the reality and then knuckled down.
  • eekeek Posts: 33,926

    Easy to feel disheartened by these antisemitic attacks taking place in the UK but let's not feel ashamed. It's Israel not Britain that's to blame.

    Right?

    No, but Israeli Government's claims that protests about them were antisemitic have made it easier for some people to justify (to themselves) that what they are doing is acceptable...
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 23,218
    Dopermean said:

    I've got a vague memory of there being some large organisation that used to distribute regeneration funds to the most deprived areas independent of the UK govt.... Perhaps @Fishing knows what it was?

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2016/06/20/cornwall-and-wales-benefited-from-eu/#:~:text=In recent years, the European,received them in the past.

    It's not just easy, it is unfortunately the truth to a large extent.
    Politicians may well need to ask themselves how they get voters to stop voting against their own interests, but they're battling right wing media operations promoting simplistic, xenophobic solutions

    The argument a brexiteer would make is that it was our money coming back, so why not cut out the middle man? Now you can argue that we cut out the middle man and also the money, but thats not the point. If I mug you of 20 quid then give you a fiver for a coffee, I've still mugged you of 15 quid...
  • FossFoss Posts: 2,726
    Dopermean said:

    I've got a vague memory of there being some large organisation that used to distribute regeneration funds to the most deprived areas independent of the UK govt.... Perhaps @Fishing knows what it was?

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2016/06/20/cornwall-and-wales-benefited-from-eu/#:~:text=In recent years, the European,received them in the past.

    It's not just easy, it is unfortunately the truth to a large extent.
    Politicians may well need to ask themselves how they get voters to stop voting against their own interests, but they're battling right wing media operations promoting simplistic, xenophobic solutions

    What we need are simplistic solutions where we send one pound abroad to get seventy pence back.
  • twistedfirestopper3twistedfirestopper3 Posts: 2,644
    edited April 29
    A fantastic header that gets right to the point. We've had decades of ineffective and incompetent governments and now we want change, any change. That the change will be just as shite, if not shite-ier than what we already have has ceased to matter. The problem is is that there are no alternatives. No radical ideas that the population will vote for. No party that dare propose something different. Maybe it doesn't matter. Maybe Palantir/ Google/Open AI will make it all better once Skynet gets up and running.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 23,218
    Leon said:

    Easy to feel disheartened by these antisemitic attacks taking place in the UK but let's not feel ashamed. It's Israel not Britain that's to blame.

    Right?

    It shames the nation. It’s disgraceful

    If I was Jewish I would absolutely not feel safe in the UK. Not at home, not in the synagogue, not walking the streets

    And the left have enabled this in different ways
    I'd imagine elements of the left don't understand the damage that being against 'Zionism' but not 'Anti-semitic' has done. Idiots like Corbyn being pals with lots of interesting characters.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,705
    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    The Guardian had an excellent article on this theme a few months back

    ‘You’d be ashamed to bring someone here’: The struggling billionaire-owned high street that shows Reform’s road to No 10
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/ng-interactive/2026/jan/28/newton-aycliffe-county-durham-high-street-decline

    This is both emblematic of, and a significant cause of political disillusionment.

    Government has fiddled round the margins for a decade or more, but has offered no real solutions. And local government simply doesn't have the resources to address the decline of our regional towns.

    A decade or more???

    What were Labour doing for these areas in the Seventies?
    Taking their votes for granted as they used to weigh the votes there not count them, and do fuck all for those areas as they always voted Labour anyway.
    What were the Tories doing in the 80s and 90s (apart from eviscerating local government)?

    But I think that rather misses the point.
    It's not a party political problem so much as a political problem.

    National politicians - and civil service policy makers - have little interest in run down regional towns. Nor do most PBers, most of the time, I suspect ?
    That shows in government investment priorities over the years, and is little influenced by which party is in government.

    Reform is unlikely to address that - and whatever you think of their draconian deportation policies, they are unlikely to do much for Newton Aycliffe, if you look at its demographics.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,695
    Could watch this all day.

    Two boosters landing back on the pad from where they departed eight minutes earlier, only seconds apart.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,705
    A rare piece of good news for the government.

    AstraZeneca makes surprise U-turn with £300m pharma investment in UK
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2026/apr/29/astrazeneca-makes-surprise-u-turn-with-300m-pharma-investment
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 32,608
    What do people want?
    Well. A £5 million gift from a crypto billionaire would be nice.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,705
    edited April 29

    Dopermean said:

    I've got a vague memory of there being some large organisation that used to distribute regeneration funds to the most deprived areas independent of the UK govt.... Perhaps @Fishing knows what it was?

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2016/06/20/cornwall-and-wales-benefited-from-eu/#:~:text=In recent years, the European,received them in the past.

    It's not just easy, it is unfortunately the truth to a large extent.
    Politicians may well need to ask themselves how they get voters to stop voting against their own interests, but they're battling right wing media operations promoting simplistic, xenophobic solutions

    The argument a brexiteer would make is that it was our money coming back, so why not cut out the middle man? Now you can argue that we cut out the middle man and also the money, but thats not the point. If I mug you of 20 quid then give you a fiver for a coffee, I've still mugged you of 15 quid...
    We did - and the money stayed in the South East.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 3,315

    A fantastic header that gets right to the point. We've had decades of ineffective and incompetent governments and now we want change, any change. That the change will be just as shite, if not shite-ier than what we already have has ceased to matter. The problem is is that there are no alternatives. No radical ideas that the population will vote for. No party that dare propose something different. Maybe it doesn't matter. Maybe Palantir/ Google/Open AI will make it all better once Skynet gets up and running.

    The problem is that any sensible way out requires trade offs that the population, especially the voting population RP talks about, really don’t like.

    Radical ideas are going to run into the same iron laws of economics that non-radical ones do.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 60,426
    Foss said:

    Dopermean said:

    I've got a vague memory of there being some large organisation that used to distribute regeneration funds to the most deprived areas independent of the UK govt.... Perhaps @Fishing knows what it was?

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2016/06/20/cornwall-and-wales-benefited-from-eu/#:~:text=In recent years, the European,received them in the past.

    It's not just easy, it is unfortunately the truth to a large extent.
    Politicians may well need to ask themselves how they get voters to stop voting against their own interests, but they're battling right wing media operations promoting simplistic, xenophobic solutions

    What we need are simplistic solutions where we send one pound abroad to get seventy pence back.
    It works for the simple...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,695
    Kremlin press secretary announcing that, because of “terrorist activity”, the Victory Day parade will have no military equipment.

    https://x.com/revishvilig/status/2049460433203925470

    So, Kremlin, where did all your military equipment go? Do you have nothing left? LOL
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,789
    Sandpit said:

    Kremlin press secretary announcing that, because of “terrorist activity”, the Victory Day parade will have no military equipment.

    https://x.com/revishvilig/status/2049460433203925470

    So, Kremlin, where did all your military equipment go? Do you have nothing left? LOL

    Nice to have some good news for a change.
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,219
    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    The Guardian had an excellent article on this theme a few months back

    ‘You’d be ashamed to bring someone here’: The struggling billionaire-owned high street that shows Reform’s road to No 10
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/ng-interactive/2026/jan/28/newton-aycliffe-county-durham-high-street-decline

    This is both emblematic of, and a significant cause of political disillusionment.

    Government has fiddled round the margins for a decade or more, but has offered no real solutions. And local government simply doesn't have the resources to address the decline of our regional towns.

    A decade or more???

    What were Labour doing for these areas in the Seventies?
    Taking their votes for granted as they used to weigh the votes there not count them, and do fuck all for those areas as they always voted Labour anyway.
    What were the Tories doing in the 80s and 90s (apart from eviscerating local government)?

    But I think that rather misses the point.
    It's not a party political problem so much as a political problem.

    National politicians - and civil service policy makers - have little interest in run down regional towns. Nor do most PBers, most of the time, I suspect ?
    That shows in government investment priorities over the years, and is little influenced by which party is in government.

    Reform is unlikely to address that - and whatever you think of their draconian deportation policies, they are unlikely to do much for Newton Aycliffe, if you look at its demographics.
    The question I replied to was specific to what labour did for areas like Newton Aycliffe.

    However I find nothing to disagree with you in your comment, and reforms deportation policy as it stands is something thst makes me less inclined to vote for them,
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,398
    Thanks for the header @RochdalePioneers - very timely.

    Should also add cost of living. Relentless.

    And if inflation seriously took off again - as in 1970s - then your fears of what comes slouching towards Bethlehem after Farage are well founded.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 60,426
    rcs1000 said:

    This is a good article. My only criticism is that it's parochial.

    The last two decades, across the developed world, have been shit. Now, not shit in absolute terms; no one is starving. But shit in relative terms, with the historic pattern of progress, and children wealthier than their parents breaking down.

    This economic discontinuity has happened in the US, in Europe, and in Japan.

    The only places it has not happened are Australia and Canada (and perhaps Norway).

    It's happened where there is lots of immigration. And it's happened where there's been essentially none.

    And it is the result of three interconnecting factors.

    Firstly, dependency ratios. In the 60s, 70s and 80s, people were having fewer children, and there weren't many old people. The amount of 'work' that was spent on the retired and kids was diminishing. This was combined with women spending more time in work, which meant economic output only went in one direction.

    Secondly, from the mid 1970s and the oil shock, the cost of commodities went into long-term decline, driven by a combination of increased efficiency and new resources (often in the developed world). The amount of money spent on heating homes and powering cars kept on going down, leaving more money for other things.

    Thirdly, the developed world first had a monopoly on making things, particularly expensive things. The developing world shipped commodities to Europe, the US and Japan, who made those commodities into expensive goods. And people in the developed world were rich, and people in the developing world were poor.

    Then each of those boosts became a drag.

    Demographics turned negative, as the number of old people grew relative to the number of workers. Every year, more money had to be taken out of workers paychecks to pay for the pensions and healthcare of old people.

    Commodities got expensive, thanks to the developing world.. well.. developing. And wanting their fair share of coal and oil and gas and copper.

    Governments in the late 1990s discovered that you could temporarily get out of the hole by borrowing and importing. It turns out
    that selling an imported iPhone is economic activity! And that worked for a while.

    But ultimately, we ceased to do anything useful at exactly the same time that demographics came to smack us around the head.

    To make things worse, politicians in the West attempted to solve the demographic issues with migration. Birth rate of 1.2? Population pyramid inverted? Simply import more people. Which led to a breakdown in social cohesion and more expensive housing. Not least because too many of our leaders thought it better to hide the issues in front of us.

    Candidly, we need politicians who can tell us the truth.

    The problem, as South America has shown over the last seventy years, is that we don't want to hear the truth. Nobody gets elected by actual identification of the issues.

    They get elected by whispering the most seductive words in the English language: "it's not your fault".

    "The only places it has not happened are Australia and Canada (and perhaps Norway)."

    So those blessed with vast mineral wealth? Clearly not the only factor - or places like Democratic Republic of Congo and Colombia would be in that list.

    "They get elected by whispering the most seductive words in the English language: "it's not your fault". "

    Even more seductive - and dangerous - are "It's his." That is where the danger lies when the Reforms of this world fail.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 3,151
    Foss said:

    Dopermean said:

    I've got a vague memory of there being some large organisation that used to distribute regeneration funds to the most deprived areas independent of the UK govt.... Perhaps @Fishing knows what it was?

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2016/06/20/cornwall-and-wales-benefited-from-eu/#:~:text=In recent years, the European,received them in the past.

    It's not just easy, it is unfortunately the truth to a large extent.
    Politicians may well need to ask themselves how they get voters to stop voting against their own interests, but they're battling right wing media operations promoting simplistic, xenophobic solutions

    What we need are simplistic solutions where we send one pound abroad to get seventy pence back.
    If you're in a former pit village in the NE then voting to leave the EU, lose your regeneration funding and see the Conservative government direct the funds from the smaller UK version to Tunbridge Wells is clearly a rational decision.
    A very well-made point.

    Interestingly the study I linked to seems to suggest that while the EU regen funding to the most deprived areas could lift them to the level where they were no longer in the most deprived category, when they then lost that funding they declined again. The regeneration doesn't stick, so either the regeneration needs to be an even higher level, for longer, or there's some other underlying issue. Clearly continuing funding to a region once it is less deprived than other regions is politically difficult (unless you're the Conservatives funding Tunbridge Wells etc).

    Sunak admission https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62436193
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 59,887
    Surprising to see Labour giving Lowe attention like this.

    https://x.com/bphillipsonmp/status/2049467614229835814

    Rupert Lowe is no supporter of women. His track record speaks for itself.

    Only Labour will tackle violence against women and girls.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 63,562

    eek said:

    Easy to feel disheartened by these antisemitic attacks taking place in the UK but let's not feel ashamed. It's Israel not Britain that's to blame.

    Right?

    No, but Israeli Government's claims that protests about them were antisemitic have made it easier for some people to justify (to themselves) that what they are doing is acceptable...
    The trouble is you just want to find a way to blame it on Israel. Any chance you might start asking some questions about the attitudes held by our own citizens? It seems all people like you wish to do is engage in excuses.

    But let's leave aside the Israeli/Jewish conflation. There are something like 60,000 Russian born people in the UK. The Russian state has been engaged in the worst war in Europe since 1945 and has far less rightful claim to be defending itself than Israel does. So far as I am aware there is no real threat to that community. Now admittedly many of them would be anti Putin. But there has obviously been an anti Russian sentiment in Britain since 2022. The difference is that those people angry at Russia are much less likely to think they are justified in using violence. Instead you'd rather focus on the small stuff.
    Yes

    If after the poisonings, murders and the invasion of Ukraine, if someone stabbed some Russians for being Russian, would it be the fault of the

    - racist stabbers
    - the Russian Government

    ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,705
    edited April 29
    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Nigelb said:

    The Guardian had an excellent article on this theme a few months back

    ‘You’d be ashamed to bring someone here’: The struggling billionaire-owned high street that shows Reform’s road to No 10
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/ng-interactive/2026/jan/28/newton-aycliffe-county-durham-high-street-decline

    This is both emblematic of, and a significant cause of political disillusionment.

    Government has fiddled round the margins for a decade or more, but has offered no real solutions. And local government simply doesn't have the resources to address the decline of our regional towns.

    A decade or more???

    What were Labour doing for these areas in the Seventies?
    Taking their votes for granted as they used to weigh the votes there not count them, and do fuck all for those areas as they always voted Labour anyway.
    What were the Tories doing in the 80s and 90s (apart from eviscerating local government)?

    But I think that rather misses the point.
    It's not a party political problem so much as a political problem.

    National politicians - and civil service policy makers - have little interest in run down regional towns. Nor do most PBers, most of the time, I suspect ?
    That shows in government investment priorities over the years, and is little influenced by which party is in government.

    Reform is unlikely to address that - and whatever you think of their draconian deportation policies, they are unlikely to do much for Newton Aycliffe, if you look at its demographics.
    The question I replied to was specific to what labour did for areas like Newton Aycliffe.

    However I find nothing to disagree with you in your comment, and reforms deportation policy as it stands is something that makes me less inclined to vote for them,
    Yes, my reply was more directed to MM's post than your reply to it.

    (Incidentally, I think Mark Gatiss, who cropped up in the previous thread, comes from Newton Aycliffe ?)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 136,938
    Compared to their parents in the 1970s and 1980s and sky high tax, inflation and strikes and their grandparents in WW2 and the aftermath of the Great Depression today's voters are not doing too badly. Inflation and unemployment are still relatively low and the minimum wage higher than ever.

    Yes the 2008 Crash and Covid impact still affects but it is easing and the rising price of fuel after the Iran strikes is Trump's fault not that of the UK government. Even net immigration is now falling thanks to tighter measures on visas brought in by the Sunak government. AI could be a worry or a great benefit, too early to tell.

    As for the mainstream parties being 'swept aside' next week, a bit presumptious. Reform will undoubtedly win most seats and votes next Thursday but I expect Labour and the Conservatives to still come second and third. The LDs will still do better locally than nationally but face falling behind the Greens who will take votes in big cities and university towns from Labour but little in the county councils and ex industrial and a few market towns voting next week.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 55,451
    For sure. Labour’s mistake was to - correctly - identify the electorate’s hunger for change - and then to box itself in by closing off the principal ways in which it might fund such change. So it was left fighting an election campaign based largely around voters’ intense dislike of the Tories, who most could see had let us down judged even by their own yardsticks, plus a few added ‘tinkering’ pledges such as putting VAT on private school fees to fund toothbrushing lessons for primary school kids. Read the analysis of the 2024 election campaign book, and it seems Labour arrived at this position because the radical policies it tested with voters in focus groups during 2022 and 2023 found that, while such policies were immensely popular among voters already committed to voting Labour, they repelled those floating between Labour, Tory and Reform.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 136,938
    Leon said:

    Easy to feel disheartened by these antisemitic attacks taking place in the UK but let's not feel ashamed. It's Israel not Britain that's to blame.

    Right?

    It shames the nation. It’s disgraceful

    If I was Jewish I would absolutely not feel safe in the UK. Not at home, not in the synagogue, not walking the streets

    And the left have enabled this in different ways
    Yes, the Tories should at least gain 1 council next week, Barnet
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 136,938
    edited April 29

    Header Typo Alert - "What do these people actually WANT...."

    As Marie Antoinette once said while fondling her poodle in her Swiss cottage in the grounds of the Palace of Versailles and tasting her foie gras
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 60,426
    HYUFD said:

    Compared to their parents in the 1970s and 1980s and sky high tax, inflation and strikes and their grandparents in WW2 and the aftermath of the Great Depression today's voters are not doing too badly. Inflation and unemployment are still relatively low and the minimum wage higher than ever.

    Yes the 2008 Crash and Covid impact still affects but it is easing and the rising price of fuel after the Iran strikes is Trump's fault not that of the UK government. Even net immigration is now falling thanks to tighter measures on visas brought in by the Sunak government. AI could be a worry or a great benefit, too early to tell.

    As for the mainstream parties being 'swept aside' next week, a bit presumptious. Reform will undoubtedly win most seats and votes next Thursday but I expect Labour and the Conservatives to still come second and third. The LDs will still do better locally than nationally but face falling behind the Greens who will take votes in big cities and university towns from Labour but little in the county councils and ex industrial and a few market towns voting next week.

    One of the real stains on Labour's record is youth unemployment. It was barely a thing under the last Tory government, but is roaring back under Starmer.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 136,938

    HYUFD said:

    Compared to their parents in the 1970s and 1980s and sky high tax, inflation and strikes and their grandparents in WW2 and the aftermath of the Great Depression today's voters are not doing too badly. Inflation and unemployment are still relatively low and the minimum wage higher than ever.

    Yes the 2008 Crash and Covid impact still affects but it is easing and the rising price of fuel after the Iran strikes is Trump's fault not that of the UK government. Even net immigration is now falling thanks to tighter measures on visas brought in by the Sunak government. AI could be a worry or a great benefit, too early to tell.

    As for the mainstream parties being 'swept aside' next week, a bit presumptious. Reform will undoubtedly win most seats and votes next Thursday but I expect Labour and the Conservatives to still come second and third. The LDs will still do better locally than nationally but face falling behind the Greens who will take votes in big cities and university towns from Labour but little in the county councils and ex industrial and a few market towns voting next week.

    One of the real stains on Labour's record is youth unemployment. It was barely a thing under the last Tory government, but is roaring back under Starmer.

    Indeed, not helped by a minimum wage small employers can't afford to pay
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 8,327
    Pretending the rise in anti-Semitic attacks is happening in a vacuum is just a case of not wanting to deal with reality.

    I never remember so many incidents pre both the Gaza and Iran wars . Of course anytime anyone mentions this they get paraded as anti-Semitic .

    The media are now so terrified to even discuss this .

    Attributing the rise in attacks due to the situation in the Middle East isn’t justifying violence it’s simply stating the bleeding obvious !
  • Am i the first PB-er to post a comment from a boat in the middle of a Rwandan lake LITERALLY surrounded by hippos and crocs?
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 5,448
    @RochdalePioneers Yes, a thousand times, yes. Thank you.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 60,426
    IanB2 said:

    For sure. Labour’s mistake was to - correctly - identify the electorate’s hunger for change - and then to box itself in by closing off the principal ways in which it might fund such change. So it was left fighting an election campaign based largely around voters’ intense dislike of the Tories, who most could see had let us down judged even by their own yardsticks, plus a few added ‘tinkering’ pledges such as putting VAT on private school fees to fund toothbrushing lessons for primary school kids. Read the analysis of the 2024 election campaign book, and it seems Labour arrived at this position because the radical policies it tested with voters in focus groups during 2022 and 2023 found that, while such policies were immensely popular among voters already committed to voting Labour, they repelled those floating between Labour, Tory and Reform.

    "Not them!" has turned into "And not you either!".

    Labour can't blame the Tories for that.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 23,144
    Peter Oborne on why the Telegraph is a completw load of crap. From Thatcherite to human being in about 15 years and he's much better for it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BlXzB8E8h4
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 9,255
    Dopermean said:

    I've got a vague memory of there being some large organisation that used to distribute regeneration funds to the most deprived areas independent of the UK govt.... Perhaps @Fishing knows what it was?

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2016/06/20/cornwall-and-wales-benefited-from-eu/#:~:text=In recent years, the European,received them in the past.

    It's not just easy, it is unfortunately the truth to a large extent.
    Politicians may well need to ask themselves how they get voters to stop voting against their own interests, but they're battling right wing media operations promoting simplistic, xenophobic solutions

    You've been bribed with your own money and you haven't noticed. This is not a great platform from which to call other people thick.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 60,426
    HYUFD said:

    Header Typo Alert - "What do these people actually WANT...."

    As Marie Antoinette once said while fondling her poodle in her Swiss cottage in the grounds of the Palace of Versailles and tasting her foie gras
    Are you suggesting Starmer might end up - beheaded???
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 39,837
    HYUFD said:

    Compared to their parents in the 1970s and 1980s and sky high tax, inflation and strikes and their grandparents in WW2 and the aftermath of the Great Depression today's voters are not doing too badly. Inflation and unemployment are still relatively low and the minimum wage higher than ever.

    Yes the 2008 Crash and Covid impact still affects but it is easing and the rising price of fuel after the Iran strikes is Trump's fault not that of the UK government. Even net immigration is now falling thanks to tighter measures on visas brought in by the Sunak government. AI could be a worry or a great benefit, too early to tell.

    As for the mainstream parties being 'swept aside' next week, a bit presumptious. Reform will undoubtedly win most seats and votes next Thursday but I expect Labour and the Conservatives to still come second and third. The LDs will still do better locally than nationally but face falling behind the Greens who will take votes in big cities and university towns from Labour but little in the county councils and ex industrial and a few market towns voting next week.

    I don't believe one can sugar coat Labour dropping 2000 plus councillors.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 9,255
    Nigelb said:

    Dopermean said:

    I've got a vague memory of there being some large organisation that used to distribute regeneration funds to the most deprived areas independent of the UK govt.... Perhaps @Fishing knows what it was?

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2016/06/20/cornwall-and-wales-benefited-from-eu/#:~:text=In recent years, the European,received them in the past.

    It's not just easy, it is unfortunately the truth to a large extent.
    Politicians may well need to ask themselves how they get voters to stop voting against their own interests, but they're battling right wing media operations promoting simplistic, xenophobic solutions

    The argument a brexiteer would make is that it was our money coming back, so why not cut out the middle man? Now you can argue that we cut out the middle man and also the money, but thats not the point. If I mug you of 20 quid then give you a fiver for a coffee, I've still mugged you of 15 quid...
    We did - and the money stayed in the South East.
    Then vote a different government in (which we did). Wanting the country run from abroad because it locks in policies you like and prevents the elected government from running the country is unattractive.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,398
    edited April 29
    Leon said:

    Am i the first PB-er to post a comment from a boat in the middle of a Rwandan lake LITERALLY surrounded by hippos and crocs?

    Are the rescuers on their way or do you want us to alert someone?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 59,826
    edited April 29

    HYUFD said:

    Header Typo Alert - "What do these people actually WANT...."

    As Marie Antoinette once said while fondling her poodle in her Swiss cottage in the grounds of the Palace of Versailles and tasting her foie gras
    Are you suggesting Starmer might end up - beheaded???
    "Decaffeinated?"
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,789
    nico67 said:

    Pretending the rise in anti-Semitic attacks is happening in a vacuum is just a case of not wanting to deal with reality.

    I never remember so many incidents pre both the Gaza and Iran wars . Of course anytime anyone mentions this they get paraded as anti-Semitic .

    The media are now so terrified to even discuss this .

    Attributing the rise in attacks due to the situation in the Middle East isn’t justifying violence it’s simply stating the bleeding obvious !

    The question is where blame lies. If we want to start taking it away from the perpetrators, are we going to do the same with attacks on other groups?

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 59,826
    Leon said:

    Am i the first PB-er to post a comment from a boat in the middle of a Rwandan lake LITERALLY surrounded by hippos and crocs?

    LITERALLY the first!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 136,938
    edited April 29

    HYUFD said:

    Header Typo Alert - "What do these people actually WANT...."

    As Marie Antoinette once said while fondling her poodle in her Swiss cottage in the grounds of the Palace of Versailles and tasting her foie gras
    Are you suggesting Starmer might end up - beheaded???
    Not literally anyway, even if one could imagine Ange marching him to the guillotine with Farage
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,695
    edited April 29

    nico67 said:

    Pretending the rise in anti-Semitic attacks is happening in a vacuum is just a case of not wanting to deal with reality.

    I never remember so many incidents pre both the Gaza and Iran wars . Of course anytime anyone mentions this they get paraded as anti-Semitic .

    The media are now so terrified to even discuss this .

    Attributing the rise in attacks due to the situation in the Middle East isn’t justifying violence it’s simply stating the bleeding obvious !

    The question is where blame lies. If we want to start taking it away from the perpetrators, are we going to do the same with attacks on other groups?

    You mean she wore a short skirt on a night out, and was walking home through the town centre in the early hours of the morning…?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,247
    In 2027 Germany will increase its defence budget by more than 25% compared to 2026.

    I wonder what the planned increase in Britain's defence budget is?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,695
    Whoops Russia, you shouldn’t be parking your helicopters there, it’s really not safe for them.

    https://x.com/osinttechnical/status/2049502307587432791
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 59,826
    Great article @RochdalePioneers! Many thanks.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 39,837
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Header Typo Alert - "What do these people actually WANT...."

    As Marie Antoinette once said while fondling her poodle in her Swiss cottage in the grounds of the Palace of Versailles and tasting her foie gras
    Are you suggesting Starmer might end up - beheaded???
    Not literally anyway, even if one could imagine Ange marching him to the guillotine with Farage
    In this vignette is Farage attending the guillotine as a participant or a spectator?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 60,426
    Sandpit said:

    Kremlin press secretary announcing that, because of “terrorist activity”, the Victory Day parade will have no military equipment.

    https://x.com/revishvilig/status/2049460433203925470

    So, Kremlin, where did all your military equipment go? Do you have nothing left? LOL

    That's what happens when you are active terrorists, Russia.
  • Leon said:

    Am i the first PB-er to post a comment from a boat in the middle of a Rwandan lake LITERALLY surrounded by hippos and crocs?

    Are the rescuers on their way or do you want us to alert someone?
    I thoroughly recommend a two centre safari in Rwanda. You can do the wetlands and lakes of Akegawa in the east and then the gorillas of the Virungas in the west in one week

    Gorilla permits are severely limited and cost $1500 a day per per person - for an hour with the gorillas - but they’re still very popular, so you have to book a year ahead. Akegawa is genuinely superb in its wildlife quality. Today I saw lions fighting buffalo and rhinos grumbling at waterbuck, zebras, giraffe, hyenas, impala, warthogs

    Nonetheless you can do the whole trip for about £30,000 a head or even less, so it’s excellent value
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 3,272
    edited April 29
    rcs1000 said:

    This is a good article. My only criticism is that it's parochial.

    The last two decades, across the developed world, have been shit. Now, not shit in absolute terms; no one is starving. But shit in relative terms, with the historic pattern of progress, and children wealthier than their parents breaking down.

    This economic discontinuity has happened in the US, in Europe, and in Japan.

    The only places it has not happened are Australia and Canada (and perhaps Norway).

    It's happened where there is lots of immigration. And it's happened where there's been essentially none.

    And it is the result of three interconnecting factors.

    Firstly, dependency ratios. In the 60s, 70s and 80s, people were having fewer children, and there weren't many old people. The amount of 'work' that was spent on the retired and kids was diminishing. This was combined with women spending more time in work, which meant economic output only went in one direction.

    Secondly, from the mid 1970s and the oil shock, the cost of commodities went into long-term decline, driven by a combination of increased efficiency and new resources (often in the developed world). The amount of money spent on heating homes and powering cars kept on going down, leaving more money for other things.

    Thirdly, the developed world first had a monopoly on making things, particularly expensive things. The developing world shipped commodities to Europe, the US and Japan, who made those commodities into expensive goods. And people in the developed world were rich, and people in the developing world were poor.

    Then each of those boosts became a drag.

    Demographics turned negative, as the number of old people grew relative to the number of workers. Every year, more money had to be taken out of workers paychecks to pay for the pensions and healthcare of old people.

    Commodities got expensive, thanks to the developing world.. well.. developing. And wanting their fair share of coal and oil and gas and copper.

    Governments in the late 1990s discovered that you could temporarily get out of the hole by borrowing and importing. It turns out
    that selling an imported iPhone is economic activity! And that worked for a while.

    But ultimately, we ceased to do anything useful at exactly the same time that demographics came to smack us around the head.

    To make things worse, politicians in the West attempted to solve the demographic issues with migration. Birth rate of 1.2? Population pyramid inverted? Simply import more people. Which led to a breakdown in social cohesion and more expensive housing. Not least because too many of our leaders thought it better to hide the issues in front of us.

    Candidly, we need politicians who can tell us the truth.

    The problem, as South America has shown over the last seventy years, is that we don't want to hear the truth. Nobody gets elected by actual identification of the issues.

    They get elected by whispering the most seductive words in the English language: "it's not your fault".

    Hmm.. Truth.

    The old are using their democratic clout to hammer the young through the cost of education; the cost of housing; and the burden of tax. Will they give up their many benefits and allowances - only from their cold dead hands.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 3,272
    Leon said:

    Am i the first PB-er to post a comment from a boat in the middle of a Rwandan lake LITERALLY surrounded by hippos and crocs?

    Are you wearing a life jacket?

    Always the question that if you fell in, could you swim faster than a croc with or without the jacket (as debated by someone who didn't want to wear one on a Tanzanian lake).
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 59,887
    It's surprising that this attack over the weekend hasn't received more political attention.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c14548m75vlo

    A man has been arrested on suspicion of arson with intent to endanger life after a fire at a packed-out LGBT+ nightclub.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,247

    In 2027 Germany will increase its defence budget by more than 25% compared to 2026.

    I wonder what the planned increase in Britain's defence budget is?

    As far as I can work it out, British defence spending for 2027-28 is planned to be 8.4% higher than in 2026-27.

    That's actually a bit higher than I thought.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 63,562

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Header Typo Alert - "What do these people actually WANT...."

    As Marie Antoinette once said while fondling her poodle in her Swiss cottage in the grounds of the Palace of Versailles and tasting her foie gras
    Are you suggesting Starmer might end up - beheaded???
    Not literally anyway, even if one could imagine Ange marching him to the guillotine with Farage
    In this vignette is Farage attending the guillotine as a participant or a spectator?
    Why not both?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 36,380
    Leon said:

    Easy to feel disheartened by these antisemitic attacks taking place in the UK but let's not feel ashamed. It's Israel not Britain that's to blame.

    Right?

    It shames the nation. It’s disgraceful

    If I was Jewish I would absolutely not feel safe in the UK. Not at home, not in the synagogue, not walking the streets

    And the left have enabled this in different ways
    Do you feel safe in Britain anyway? You look a bit Jewish, wearing a shirt and trousers like Jewish men do. Jewish cis men anyway.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 25,480
    For the life of me, I cannot understand why the great and the good in the Labour Party, virtue signalling at their North London supper parties, have been unable to grasp the issues highlighted by RP in the header.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 36,380

    nico67 said:

    Pretending the rise in anti-Semitic attacks is happening in a vacuum is just a case of not wanting to deal with reality.

    I never remember so many incidents pre both the Gaza and Iran wars . Of course anytime anyone mentions this they get paraded as anti-Semitic .

    The media are now so terrified to even discuss this .

    Attributing the rise in attacks due to the situation in the Middle East isn’t justifying violence it’s simply stating the bleeding obvious !

    The question is where blame lies. If we want to start taking it away from the perpetrators, are we going to do the same with attacks on other groups?

    We should not overlook the possibility of external organisation and coordination, especially in light of reports that Iranian outfits have offered payments.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 13,456
    rcs1000 said:

    This is a good article. My only criticism is that it's parochial.

    The last two decades, across the developed world, have been shit. Now, not shit in absolute terms; no one is starving. But shit in relative terms, with the historic pattern of progress, and children wealthier than their parents breaking down.

    This economic discontinuity has happened in the US, in Europe, and in Japan.

    The only places it has not happened are Australia and Canada (and perhaps Norway).

    It's happened where there is lots of immigration. And it's happened where there's been essentially none.

    And it is the result of three interconnecting factors.

    Firstly, dependency ratios. In the 60s, 70s and 80s, people were having fewer children, and there weren't many old people. The amount of 'work' that was spent on the retired and kids was diminishing. This was combined with women spending more time in work, which meant economic output only went in one direction.

    Secondly, from the mid 1970s and the oil shock, the cost of commodities went into long-term decline, driven by a combination of increased efficiency and new resources (often in the developed world). The amount of money spent on heating homes and powering cars kept on going down, leaving more money for other things.

    Thirdly, the developed world first had a monopoly on making things, particularly expensive things. The developing world shipped commodities to Europe, the US and Japan, who made those commodities into expensive goods. And people in the developed world were rich, and people in the developing world were poor.

    Then each of those boosts became a drag.

    Demographics turned negative, as the number of old people grew relative to the number of workers. Every year, more money had to be taken out of workers paychecks to pay for the pensions and healthcare of old people.

    Commodities got expensive, thanks to the developing world.. well.. developing. And wanting their fair share of coal and oil and gas and copper.

    Governments in the late 1990s discovered that you could temporarily get out of the hole by borrowing and importing. It turns out
    that selling an imported iPhone is economic activity! And that worked for a while.

    But ultimately, we ceased to do anything useful at exactly the same time that demographics came to smack us around the head.

    To make things worse, politicians in the West attempted to solve the demographic issues with migration. Birth rate of 1.2? Population pyramid inverted? Simply import more people. Which led to a breakdown in social cohesion and more expensive housing. Not least because too many of our leaders thought it better to hide the issues in front of us.

    Candidly, we need politicians who can tell us the truth.

    The problem, as South America has shown over the last seventy years, is that we don't want to hear the truth. Nobody gets elected by actual identification of the issues.

    They get elected by whispering the most seductive words in the English language: "it's not your fault".

    This has been happening for decades though.

    I’ve worked very very hard all my adult life. And I’ve had a modestly successful career.

    But my parents had waaaay more fun than I did and were relatively speaking a lot better off than I have been
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 23,218

    For the life of me, I cannot understand why the great and the good in the Labour Party, virtue signalling at their North London supper parties, have been unable to grasp the issues highlighted by RP in the header.

    Too many are from middle class backgrounds and achieve their position via the SPAD route, with no actual real world experience.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,499
    edited April 29
    Leon said:

    Am i the first PB-er to post a comment from a boat in the middle of a Rwandan lake LITERALLY surrounded by hippos and crocs?

    When I did similar I was in the Zambezi on a kayak. It's the hippos you need to worry about. We got charged two or three times and had to paddle like crazy to get away. The best adventure we've ever had.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 13,456
    edited April 29
    Leon said:

    Am i the first PB-er to post a comment from a boat in the middle of a Rwandan lake LITERALLY surrounded by hippos and crocs?

    Labour finally deported you then?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,695
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Am i the first PB-er to post a comment from a boat in the middle of a Rwandan lake LITERALLY surrounded by hippos and crocs?

    Are the rescuers on their way or do you want us to alert someone?
    I thoroughly recommend a two centre safari in Rwanda. You can do the wetlands and lakes of Akegawa in the east and then the gorillas of the Virungas in the west in one week

    Gorilla permits are severely limited and cost $1500 a day per per person - for an hour with the gorillas - but they’re still very popular, so you have to book a year ahead. Akegawa is genuinely superb in its wildlife quality. Today I saw lions fighting buffalo and rhinos grumbling at waterbuck, zebras, giraffe, hyenas, impala, warthogs

    Nonetheless you can do the whole trip for about £30,000 a head or even less, so it’s excellent value
    Do you get to pose for a photo with the dead gorilla?
  • Stocky said:

    Leon said:

    Am i the first PB-er to post a comment from a boat in the middle of a Rwandan lake LITERALLY surrounded by hippos and crocs?

    When I did similar I was in the Zambezi on a kayak. It's the hippos you need to worry about. We got charged two or three times and had to paddle like crazy to get away. The best adventure we've ever had.
    I was discussing exactly that with a friend on this boat: kayaking on the Zambezi with crocs and hippos. I did it about ten years ago. Looking back I was absurdly blithe given the danger
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 13,456
    Battlebus said:

    rcs1000 said:

    This is a good article. My only criticism is that it's parochial.

    The last two decades, across the developed world, have been shit. Now, not shit in absolute terms; no one is starving. But shit in relative terms, with the historic pattern of progress, and children wealthier than their parents breaking down.

    This economic discontinuity has happened in the US, in Europe, and in Japan.

    The only places it has not happened are Australia and Canada (and perhaps Norway).

    It's happened where there is lots of immigration. And it's happened where there's been essentially none.

    And it is the result of three interconnecting factors.

    Firstly, dependency ratios. In the 60s, 70s and 80s, people were having fewer children, and there weren't many old people. The amount of 'work' that was spent on the retired and kids was diminishing. This was combined with women spending more time in work, which meant economic output only went in one direction.

    Secondly, from the mid 1970s and the oil shock, the cost of commodities went into long-term decline, driven by a combination of increased efficiency and new resources (often in the developed world). The amount of money spent on heating homes and powering cars kept on going down, leaving more money for other things.

    Thirdly, the developed world first had a monopoly on making things, particularly expensive things. The developing world shipped commodities to Europe, the US and Japan, who made those commodities into expensive goods. And people in the developed world were rich, and people in the developing world were poor.

    Then each of those boosts became a drag.

    Demographics turned negative, as the number of old people grew relative to the number of workers. Every year, more money had to be taken out of workers paychecks to pay for the pensions and healthcare of old people.

    Commodities got expensive, thanks to the developing world.. well.. developing. And wanting their fair share of coal and oil and gas and copper.

    Governments in the late 1990s discovered that you could temporarily get out of the hole by borrowing and importing. It turns out
    that selling an imported iPhone is economic activity! And that worked for a while.

    But ultimately, we ceased to do anything useful at exactly the same time that demographics came to smack us around the head.

    To make things worse, politicians in the West attempted to solve the demographic issues with migration. Birth rate of 1.2? Population pyramid inverted? Simply import more people. Which led to a breakdown in social cohesion and more expensive housing. Not least because too many of our leaders thought it better to hide the issues in front of us.

    Candidly, we need politicians who can tell us the truth.

    The problem, as South America has shown over the last seventy years, is that we don't want to hear the truth. Nobody gets elected by actual identification of the issues.

    They get elected by whispering the most seductive words in the English language: "it's not your fault".

    Hmm.. Truth.

    The old are using their democratic clout to hammer the young through the cost of education; the cost of housing; and the burden of tax. Will they give up their many benefits and allowances - only from their cold dead hands.
    Arguably this generation should be paying the cost of education and the cost of housing.

    The challenge is the fact that the old paid off those before them and didn’t save enough for themselves. So there is going to be an element of transfer payments - unfair though that might seem - but is disproportionate at the moment
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 63,562

    nico67 said:

    Pretending the rise in anti-Semitic attacks is happening in a vacuum is just a case of not wanting to deal with reality.

    I never remember so many incidents pre both the Gaza and Iran wars . Of course anytime anyone mentions this they get paraded as anti-Semitic .

    The media are now so terrified to even discuss this .

    Attributing the rise in attacks due to the situation in the Middle East isn’t justifying violence it’s simply stating the bleeding obvious !

    The question is where blame lies. If we want to start taking it away from the perpetrators, are we going to do the same with attacks on other groups?

    We should not overlook the possibility of external organisation and coordination, especially in light of reports that Iranian outfits have offered payments.
    I’ll bet on a mix of self radicalised, found online and offered payment in crypto currency to do a random attack.

    And the same for the Starmer arson stuff and the Jewish ambulances as well.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,247
    Dopermean said:

    Foss said:

    Dopermean said:

    I've got a vague memory of there being some large organisation that used to distribute regeneration funds to the most deprived areas independent of the UK govt.... Perhaps @Fishing knows what it was?

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2016/06/20/cornwall-and-wales-benefited-from-eu/#:~:text=In recent years, the European,received them in the past.

    It's not just easy, it is unfortunately the truth to a large extent.
    Politicians may well need to ask themselves how they get voters to stop voting against their own interests, but they're battling right wing media operations promoting simplistic, xenophobic solutions

    What we need are simplistic solutions where we send one pound abroad to get seventy pence back.
    If you're in a former pit village in the NE then voting to leave the EU, lose your regeneration funding and see the Conservative government direct the funds from the smaller UK version to Tunbridge Wells is clearly a rational decision.
    A very well-made point.

    Interestingly the study I linked to seems to suggest that while the EU regen funding to the most deprived areas could lift them to the level where they were no longer in the most deprived category, when they then lost that funding they declined again. The regeneration doesn't stick, so either the regeneration needs to be an even higher level, for longer, or there's some other underlying issue. Clearly continuing funding to a region once it is less deprived than other regions is politically difficult (unless you're the Conservatives funding Tunbridge Wells etc).

    Sunak admission https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62436193
    I think the issue towns have is that in a globalised economy, with efficient logistics, they just can't compete economically. Particularly not in the knowledge economy.

    The optimal solution is probably to reinforce success in the big cities (which for Britain means massive investment in transport infrastructure to link the Liverpool-Manchester-Sheffield-Leeds area) and then manage the depopulation of most towns gracefully.

    The towns only grew because people moved to them for work. If the work is no longer there then let people move to where the work is, and let the towns shrink to a more sustainable size.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 14,288

    nico67 said:

    Pretending the rise in anti-Semitic attacks is happening in a vacuum is just a case of not wanting to deal with reality.

    I never remember so many incidents pre both the Gaza and Iran wars . Of course anytime anyone mentions this they get paraded as anti-Semitic .

    The media are now so terrified to even discuss this .

    Attributing the rise in attacks due to the situation in the Middle East isn’t justifying violence it’s simply stating the bleeding obvious !

    The question is where blame lies. If we want to start taking it away from the perpetrators, are we going to do the same with attacks on other groups?

    Is anyone on PB seriously making this argument? Even someone like Corbyn has never justified attacks on British Jews. It just feels like strawman outrage to me at something that only happens on the very periphery.

    On a broader point, the characteristics of those carrying out attacks on Jews and synagogues are rather different to those protesting in the street. The problem here is murderous Islamist psychos*, not middle class sandal wearers making a fuss about Israel’s genocide in Gaza.

    *I think there is a chance some of the arsonists are just some stupid kids making a quick buck off the IRGC via TikTok.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 59,887
    Battlebus said:

    rcs1000 said:

    This is a good article. My only criticism is that it's parochial.

    The last two decades, across the developed world, have been shit. Now, not shit in absolute terms; no one is starving. But shit in relative terms, with the historic pattern of progress, and children wealthier than their parents breaking down.

    This economic discontinuity has happened in the US, in Europe, and in Japan.

    The only places it has not happened are Australia and Canada (and perhaps Norway).

    It's happened where there is lots of immigration. And it's happened where there's been essentially none.

    And it is the result of three interconnecting factors.

    Firstly, dependency ratios. In the 60s, 70s and 80s, people were having fewer children, and there weren't many old people. The amount of 'work' that was spent on the retired and kids was diminishing. This was combined with women spending more time in work, which meant economic output only went in one direction.

    Secondly, from the mid 1970s and the oil shock, the cost of commodities went into long-term decline, driven by a combination of increased efficiency and new resources (often in the developed world). The amount of money spent on heating homes and powering cars kept on going down, leaving more money for other things.

    Thirdly, the developed world first had a monopoly on making things, particularly expensive things. The developing world shipped commodities to Europe, the US and Japan, who made those commodities into expensive goods. And people in the developed world were rich, and people in the developing world were poor.

    Then each of those boosts became a drag.

    Demographics turned negative, as the number of old people grew relative to the number of workers. Every year, more money had to be taken out of workers paychecks to pay for the pensions and healthcare of old people.

    Commodities got expensive, thanks to the developing world.. well.. developing. And wanting their fair share of coal and oil and gas and copper.

    Governments in the late 1990s discovered that you could temporarily get out of the hole by borrowing and importing. It turns out
    that selling an imported iPhone is economic activity! And that worked for a while.

    But ultimately, we ceased to do anything useful at exactly the same time that demographics came to smack us around the head.

    To make things worse, politicians in the West attempted to solve the demographic issues with migration. Birth rate of 1.2? Population pyramid inverted? Simply import more people. Which led to a breakdown in social cohesion and more expensive housing. Not least because too many of our leaders thought it better to hide the issues in front of us.

    Candidly, we need politicians who can tell us the truth.

    The problem, as South America has shown over the last seventy years, is that we don't want to hear the truth. Nobody gets elected by actual identification of the issues.

    They get elected by whispering the most seductive words in the English language: "it's not your fault".

    Hmm.. Truth.

    The old are using their democratic clout to hammer the young through the cost of education; the cost of housing; and the burden of tax. Will they give up their many benefits and allowances - only from their cold dead hands.
    The truth isn't anything like as simple as that. It's generally the old who are opposed to mass immigration, despite being the people who benefit financially from inflated asset prices and cheaper labour.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 63,562
    Eabhal said:

    nico67 said:

    Pretending the rise in anti-Semitic attacks is happening in a vacuum is just a case of not wanting to deal with reality.

    I never remember so many incidents pre both the Gaza and Iran wars . Of course anytime anyone mentions this they get paraded as anti-Semitic .

    The media are now so terrified to even discuss this .

    Attributing the rise in attacks due to the situation in the Middle East isn’t justifying violence it’s simply stating the bleeding obvious !

    The question is where blame lies. If we want to start taking it away from the perpetrators, are we going to do the same with attacks on other groups?

    Is anyone on PB seriously making this argument? Even someone like Corbyn has never justified attacks on British Jews. It just feels like strawman outrage to me at something that only happens on the very periphery.

    On a broader point, the characteristics of those carrying out attacks on Jews and synagogues are rather different to those protesting in the street. The problem here is murderous Islamist psychos*, not middle class sandal wearers making a fuss about Israel’s genocide in Gaza.

    *I think there is a chance some of the arsonists are just some stupid kids making a quick buck off the IRGC via TikTok.
    I think it will be a mix - self radicalised idiots who were seduced into the final steps by IRGC or similar waving some crypto currency at them.

    The IRGC previously attempted to recruit UK people to carry out attacks on this basis - see the Siege of Chiswick Park.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,204
    Strange whilst shredding old correspondence I found an e mail sent to Robin Millar, our conservative mp at the time of Partygate demanding Johnson resigns

    He did not seem impressed
  • FossFoss Posts: 2,726
    edited April 29
    Dopermean said:

    Foss said:

    Dopermean said:

    I've got a vague memory of there being some large organisation that used to distribute regeneration funds to the most deprived areas independent of the UK govt.... Perhaps @Fishing knows what it was?

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2016/06/20/cornwall-and-wales-benefited-from-eu/#:~:text=In recent years, the European,received them in the past.

    It's not just easy, it is unfortunately the truth to a large extent.
    Politicians may well need to ask themselves how they get voters to stop voting against their own interests, but they're battling right wing media operations promoting simplistic, xenophobic solutions

    What we need are simplistic solutions where we send one pound abroad to get seventy pence back.
    If you're in a former pit village in the NE then voting to leave the EU, lose your regeneration funding and see the Conservative government direct the funds from the smaller UK version to Tunbridge Wells is clearly a rational decision.
    A very well-made point.

    Interestingly the study I linked to seems to suggest that while the EU regen funding to the most deprived areas could lift them to the level where they were no longer in the most deprived category, when they then lost that funding they declined again. The regeneration doesn't stick, so either the regeneration needs to be an even higher level, for longer, or there's some other underlying issue. Clearly continuing funding to a region once it is less deprived than other regions is politically difficult (unless you're the Conservatives funding Tunbridge Wells etc).

    Sunak admission https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62436193
    The underlying issue is that those pit villages have no reason to exit. They came into being because of a hole in the ground and they ceased to have purpose when that hole ran fallow. Spending money on them is a waste. The decent thing would have been to fund people moving out of them to places there is future - as we did when we shipped chunks of London to Milton Keynes - and then flatten them - as they are doing in the dead parts of Detroit. Except we imported masses of people removing anywhere for them to go, and then spent a fortune telling them it's all going to be ok after the *next* regeneration.
  • BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 7,152
    edited April 29
    Like Hartlepool, this will be seen as a Reform triumph.

    It won’t last.

    Come back and tell me how wrong I was at the next election. But right now I am calling this as the “beginning of the end”.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 23,704

    Leon said:

    Easy to feel disheartened by these antisemitic attacks taking place in the UK but let's not feel ashamed. It's Israel not Britain that's to blame.

    Right?

    It shames the nation. It’s disgraceful

    If I was Jewish I would absolutely not feel safe in the UK. Not at home, not in the synagogue, not walking the streets

    And the left have enabled this in different ways
    I'd imagine elements of the left don't understand the damage that being against 'Zionism' but not 'Anti-semitic' has done. Idiots like Corbyn being pals with lots of interesting characters.
    "Antisemitism" has been so devalued by the false claims on anyone who is against Israels Genocide that it is now worthless.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 8,327
    edited April 29

    nico67 said:

    Pretending the rise in anti-Semitic attacks is happening in a vacuum is just a case of not wanting to deal with reality.

    I never remember so many incidents pre both the Gaza and Iran wars . Of course anytime anyone mentions this they get paraded as anti-Semitic .

    The media are now so terrified to even discuss this .

    Attributing the rise in attacks due to the situation in the Middle East isn’t justifying violence it’s simply stating the bleeding obvious !

    The question is where blame lies. If we want to start taking it away from the perpetrators, are we going to do the same with attacks on other groups?

    No one’s taking blame away from the perpetrators. They committed the attacks but it’s impossible to ignore that a catalyst for a rise in anti-Semitism is what’s happened over the last few years in the Middle East .
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,247

    Like Hartlepool, this will be seen as a Reform triumph.

    It won’t last.

    Come back and tell me how wrong I was at the next election. But right now I am calling this as the “beginning of the end”.

    Reform's failure to win the Gorton and Denton by-election is already a sign that they have passed their peak. They weren't that far off finishing third in the end.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 63,562

    Leon said:

    Easy to feel disheartened by these antisemitic attacks taking place in the UK but let's not feel ashamed. It's Israel not Britain that's to blame.

    Right?

    It shames the nation. It’s disgraceful

    If I was Jewish I would absolutely not feel safe in the UK. Not at home, not in the synagogue, not walking the streets

    And the left have enabled this in different ways
    I'd imagine elements of the left don't understand the damage that being against 'Zionism' but not 'Anti-semitic' has done. Idiots like Corbyn being pals with lots of interesting characters.
    "Antisemitism" has been so devalued by the false claims on anyone who is against Israels Genocide that it is now worthless.
    No it hasn’t.

    Just like Ali Disaster Area claiming racial persecution by the Met, didn’t invalidate all other claims of racism by the Met.
  • Leon_VotedForStarmerLeon_VotedForStarmer Posts: 69,000
    edited April 29
    Sundowners. Zebra behind us hippos in front, fish eagles all around



  • https://x.com/alexwickham/status/2049510846619914708

    Andy Burnham says Labour must take a “different course” after the local elections. He declines to back Keir Starmer staying on, signals he’ll make another run for Parliament and argues defence spending should be taken out of the fiscal rules to fund a rise through borrowing.

    “It’s got to be a moment of reflection,” Burnham says in a Bloomberg interview today, warning the results will be “challenging.” He says in the aftermath it means “starting to now pull through on a different course.”

    “I understand the real frustration people have got with politics and politicians. I honestly, I really understand that. And they’re right to say politics just hasn’t been working,” the Greater Manchester Mayor tells @flacqua.

    Burnham makes clear he intends to run again for Parliament.

    “The politics we’ve pioneered as mayors: place first, not party first — that needs to go national, and so we do need to reform Westminster. I can’t remove the kind of feeling that someday I will try and go back. I’m not ruling it out.”

    Asked if Starmer should stay after May 7, Burnham declines to answer. Instead he says the PM deserves more “credit” for the job he’s done.

    And he suggests defence spending should be taken out of the fiscal rules in what would be a major change to UK policy to fund an increase in defence spending through borrowing.

    While he suggests the fiscal rules “will stay in any context,” he says “there’s certainly a case, when we look at the pressure on defence spending, to consider that exceptionally outside of the rules.”

    Get on with it.
  • BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 7,152
    edited April 29
    Duplicate
This discussion has been closed.