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Brexit Effect: Summary and conclusions – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 13,173
edited April 28 in General
Brexit Effect: Summary and conclusions – politicalbetting.com

This is the final article in a series analysing the oft-cited NBER paper, which estimates that Brexit reduced the UK’s GDP by 6-8%, usually shortened to 8%.  The first three threads (here, here and here) argued that, contrary to the study, there is no persuasive evidence of a significant impact, either positive or negative, on GDP, employment or labour productivity. 

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,580
    I don't want to alarm anybody but my firm's worst worst case scenario involved the break up of OPEC.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 81,143
    edited April 28

    I don't want to alarm anybody but my firm's worst worst case scenario involved the break up of OPEC.

    Eh ? I'd have thought the end of OPEC would be a good thing. Should increase global supply as nations are in competition rather than cartel with one another.

    Or are they going to start blowing up each others infrastructure and cheating like Man City ?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 17,563
    Good article Fishing - that tallies with my gut feeling, particularly the bit about the lack of the significant difference between the UK, France and Germany.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 17,563

    I don't want to alarm anybody but my firm's worst worst case scenario involved the break up of OPEC.

    What are the implications of the breakup of OPEC?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 55,434
    To be honest, I’ve switched out from this series of leads. While they started by, quite legitimately, challenging the received wisdom that Brexit has been immensely damaging, the direction of their argument that Brexit has made no difference at all appears equally partisan and irrational.
  • Jesus, Starmer is utterly shit.
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,159

    I don't want to alarm anybody but my firm's worst worst case scenario involved the break up of OPEC.

    Why ?

    Surely it’s a good thing. The UAE is reportedly wanting to produce more oil.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,580
    Pulpstar said:

    I don't want to alarm anybody but my firm's worst worst case scenario involved the break up of OPEC.

    Eh ? I'd have thought the end of OPEC would be a good thing. Should increase global supply as nations are in competition rather than cartel with one another.

    Or are they going to start blowing up each others infrastructure and cheating like Man City ?
    It's going to turn into a shit show long term.

    At some point countries in that part of the world will want nuclear technology (and potentially weapons too).

    We know Israel only wants one nuclear power in the region....
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,580
    Taz said:

    I don't want to alarm anybody but my firm's worst worst case scenario involved the break up of OPEC.

    Why ?

    Surely it’s a good thing. The UAE is reportedly wanting to produce more oil.
    The UAE won't be able to supply all that is required if the other members of OPEC decide to go slow.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 20,965
    @Fishing , you describe the UK's net contribution to the EU budget as "a straight drain on our economy". That's as bad an error as any you have spotted in the NBER paper. Some of that money was spent on services, e.g. medicines regulation, food safety, that benefitted the UK and which we now have to pay for at a national level (losing the efficiency savings of doing these things at scale).
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,580
    This will Israel improve its popularity.

    EU 'ready' to sanction Israel over Russian vessel carrying stolen Ukrainian grain

    https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2026/04/28/eu-ready-to-sanction-israel-over-russian-vessel-carrying-stolen-ukrainian-grain
  • eekeek Posts: 33,922

    This will Israel improve its popularity.

    EU 'ready' to sanction Israel over Russian vessel carrying stolen Ukrainian grain

    https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2026/04/28/eu-ready-to-sanction-israel-over-russian-vessel-carrying-stolen-ukrainian-grain

    Do the sanctions include banning them from Eurovision as I suspect that would impact them way more than we think...
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,580
    eek said:

    This will Israel improve its popularity.

    EU 'ready' to sanction Israel over Russian vessel carrying stolen Ukrainian grain

    https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2026/04/28/eu-ready-to-sanction-israel-over-russian-vessel-carrying-stolen-ukrainian-grain

    Do the sanctions include banning them from Eurovision as I suspect that would impact them way more than we think...
    Eurovision is nothing to do with the EU.

    A few countries are already boycotting Eurovision because of Israel's participation.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 20,965
    eek said:

    This will Israel improve its popularity.

    EU 'ready' to sanction Israel over Russian vessel carrying stolen Ukrainian grain

    https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2026/04/28/eu-ready-to-sanction-israel-over-russian-vessel-carrying-stolen-ukrainian-grain

    Do the sanctions include banning them from Eurovision as I suspect that would impact them way more than we think...
    Eurovision ≠ EU

    Wasn't it Theresa May who said we were leaving the European Union, not Europe Eurovision?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,433
    IanB2 said:

    To be honest, I’ve switched out from this series of leads. While they started by, quite legitimately, challenging the received wisdom that Brexit has been immensely damaging, the direction of their argument that Brexit has made no difference at all appears equally partisan and irrational.

    I agree. However what this series lacks is an appreciation of the cultural and social disadvantages to the UK as a result of Brexit. As Dulles once said, Britain has lost an Empire but has not yet found a role. Our role, as soon as the French veto was dropped, was to be a significant part of the intellectual powerhouse that Europe was developing. Since the calamity of Brexit we've been on our own.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 81,143
    1% GDP higher than the counterfactual due solely to no EU contributions is cloud cuckoo land.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,670
    edited April 28

    @Fishing , you describe the UK's net contribution to the EU budget as "a straight drain on our economy". That's as bad an error as any you have spotted in the NBER paper. Some of that money was spent on services, e.g. medicines regulation, food safety, that benefitted the UK and which we now have to pay for at a national level (losing the efficiency savings of doing these things at scale).

    The "net contribution" was calculated after the rebate, and after UK public sector receipts back from the EU.
    Of course the EU also directly funded UK organisations, to the tune of £1.5 billion – £2.5 billion annually.

    That ought to be included in Fishing's calculation, and isn't - so his number is about 20% out from reality.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 22,873

    I don't want to alarm anybody but my firm's worst worst case scenario involved the break up of OPEC.

    How long until the release of Scenario_Worst-Case_Worst_Worst_Worst_FINALv666.doc?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,670
    Since leaving the EU, the UK has negotiated some improved trade deals

    As has the EU.
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,159

    This will Israel improve its popularity.

    EU 'ready' to sanction Israel over Russian vessel carrying stolen Ukrainian grain

    https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2026/04/28/eu-ready-to-sanction-israel-over-russian-vessel-carrying-stolen-ukrainian-grain

    Tough one for Bart this.

    Does he defend Israel, as they can usually do no wrong, or not as it’s Russia ?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 39,816

    Jesus, Starmer is utterly shit.

    You are Sir Christian Turner and I claim my £5.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 6,356

    @Fishing , you describe the UK's net contribution to the EU budget as "a straight drain on our economy". That's as bad an error as any you have spotted in the NBER paper. Some of that money was spent on services, e.g. medicines regulation, food safety, that benefitted the UK and which we now have to pay for at a national level (losing the efficiency savings of doing these things at scale).

    Thanks for the comment.

    That was one of the things I had to edit out of the paper, in which I pointed out that around 4% of the EU's budget goes on public administration so such sums are relatively trivial. In addition there are residual UK contributions to pensions, which I didn't offset.

    I also left out that on the remainder of the UK's contributions we can reoptimise them according to our national priorities, i.e. away from agricultural subsidies and regional aid, improving efficiency.

    Even then, my article was much too long.

    I don't agree that 4% of 0.5% is equivalent to 6-8% or anything like it.

    As it said, it wasn't meant as a full academic paper - just some thoughts to indicate an order of magnitude.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,689

    https://x.com/reuters/status/2049103389854929105

    BREAKING: The United Arab Emirates said it quit OPEC and OPEC+, dealing a heavy blow to the oil exporting groups and their de facto leader, Saudi Arabia, at a time when the Iran war has caused a historic energy shock and unsettled the global economy

    Watch for oil prices to start falling. UAE is about to start pumping like crazy to stop Iran and Russia from benefitting from the situation.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 6,356
    edited April 28
    Apologies by the way.

    I'm afraid my pledge to make this article significantly shorter than the last one was about as trustworthy as a Keir Starmer campaign promise and had about as long a life.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 63,547
    Cookie said:

    I don't want to alarm anybody but my firm's worst worst case scenario involved the break up of OPEC.

    What are the implications of the breakup of OPEC?
    Well, for the states involved, oil is pretty much their economy. Despite attempts at diversification.

    So when one starts pumping, this reduces the income of the others.

    While they have some table manners, this is the bunch that considered MBS killing a hostile journalist and sending a bloke to chop up the body ok. Getting caught was a bit bad, though.

    Imagine that one country drops the income of the others by 25%, say.

    Can you imagine the hijinks that could ensue?

    Kanly from Dune (which was about Oil and OPEC, in part)
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,433
    Sandpit said:

    https://x.com/reuters/status/2049103389854929105

    BREAKING: The United Arab Emirates said it quit OPEC and OPEC+, dealing a heavy blow to the oil exporting groups and their de facto leader, Saudi Arabia, at a time when the Iran war has caused a historic energy shock and unsettled the global economy

    Watch for oil prices to start falling. UAE is about to start pumping like crazy to stop Iran and Russia from benefitting from the situation.
    And Trump has just said that Iranians have told him they are 'in a state of collapse' and want him to open Hormuz asap.

    Do we believe him or not?
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 9,241
    Also our likely net contribution to the new EU borrowing schemes to be taken into account:

    https://commission.europa.eu/strategy-and-policy/eu-budget/eu-borrower-investor-relations/nextgenerationeu_en
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,159
    Sandpit said:

    https://x.com/reuters/status/2049103389854929105

    BREAKING: The United Arab Emirates said it quit OPEC and OPEC+, dealing a heavy blow to the oil exporting groups and their de facto leader, Saudi Arabia, at a time when the Iran war has caused a historic energy shock and unsettled the global economy

    Watch for oil prices to start falling. UAE is about to start pumping like crazy to stop Iran and Russia from benefitting from the situation.
    Do they have a route to get the oil out that avoids Hormuz ?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 43,520

    I don't want to alarm anybody but my firm's worst worst case scenario involved the break up of OPEC.

    OPEC and OUT...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 63,547
    Taz said:

    This will Israel improve its popularity.

    EU 'ready' to sanction Israel over Russian vessel carrying stolen Ukrainian grain

    https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2026/04/28/eu-ready-to-sanction-israel-over-russian-vessel-carrying-stolen-ukrainian-grain

    Tough one for Bart this.

    Does he defend Israel, as they can usually do no wrong, or not as it’s Russia ?
    It’s the Middle East

    My enemies enemies friends enemies friend is my secret trading partner.

    Quite often that means trade with yourself. But you have to be careful.

    You can be your own worst enemy.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,689
    Not just the refinery at Tuapse on fire, the streets outside are on fire too.

    https://x.com/Osinttechnical/status/2049133334773575811
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 79,490

    Sandpit said:

    https://x.com/reuters/status/2049103389854929105

    BREAKING: The United Arab Emirates said it quit OPEC and OPEC+, dealing a heavy blow to the oil exporting groups and their de facto leader, Saudi Arabia, at a time when the Iran war has caused a historic energy shock and unsettled the global economy

    Watch for oil prices to start falling. UAE is about to start pumping like crazy to stop Iran and Russia from benefitting from the situation.
    And Trump has just said that Iranians have told him they are 'in a state of collapse' and want him to open Hormuz asap.

    Do we believe him or not?
    Is there a 'y' in the day?

    If the answer's yes, the answer's no.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 79,490
    Sandpit said:

    https://x.com/reuters/status/2049103389854929105

    BREAKING: The United Arab Emirates said it quit OPEC and OPEC+, dealing a heavy blow to the oil exporting groups and their de facto leader, Saudi Arabia, at a time when the Iran war has caused a historic energy shock and unsettled the global economy

    Watch for oil prices to start falling. UAE is about to start pumping like crazy to stop Iran and Russia from benefitting from the situation.
    Do they have a major oil terminal on the eastern seaboard?
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 8,090
    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://x.com/reuters/status/2049103389854929105

    BREAKING: The United Arab Emirates said it quit OPEC and OPEC+, dealing a heavy blow to the oil exporting groups and their de facto leader, Saudi Arabia, at a time when the Iran war has caused a historic energy shock and unsettled the global economy

    Watch for oil prices to start falling. UAE is about to start pumping like crazy to stop Iran and Russia from benefitting from the situation.
    Do they have a route to get the oil out that avoids Hormuz ?
    Do they have sufficient export facilities to significantly increase their exports?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,689
    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://x.com/reuters/status/2049103389854929105

    BREAKING: The United Arab Emirates said it quit OPEC and OPEC+, dealing a heavy blow to the oil exporting groups and their de facto leader, Saudi Arabia, at a time when the Iran war has caused a historic energy shock and unsettled the global economy

    Watch for oil prices to start falling. UAE is about to start pumping like crazy to stop Iran and Russia from benefitting from the situation.
    Do they have a route to get the oil out that avoids Hormuz ?
    Yes, they can get 1.5m bpd out through a pipeline at the port of Fujairah (on the East coast of UAE).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habshan-Fujairah_oil_pipeline

    Current UAE production is around 2m bpd, the suggestion is that they have capacity for 5m bpd, and an economy diversified enough to withstand lower prices, unlike most other OPEC countries.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,689
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://x.com/reuters/status/2049103389854929105

    BREAKING: The United Arab Emirates said it quit OPEC and OPEC+, dealing a heavy blow to the oil exporting groups and their de facto leader, Saudi Arabia, at a time when the Iran war has caused a historic energy shock and unsettled the global economy

    Watch for oil prices to start falling. UAE is about to start pumping like crazy to stop Iran and Russia from benefitting from the situation.
    Do they have a major oil terminal on the eastern seaboard?
    Yes. Yes they do.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habshan-Fujairah_oil_pipeline
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,689

    Sandpit said:

    https://x.com/reuters/status/2049103389854929105

    BREAKING: The United Arab Emirates said it quit OPEC and OPEC+, dealing a heavy blow to the oil exporting groups and their de facto leader, Saudi Arabia, at a time when the Iran war has caused a historic energy shock and unsettled the global economy

    Watch for oil prices to start falling. UAE is about to start pumping like crazy to stop Iran and Russia from benefitting from the situation.
    And Trump has just said that Iranians have told him they are 'in a state of collapse' and want him to open Hormuz asap.

    Do we believe him or not?
    The problem the Iranians have, is that the US blockade on their ports is leading to their oil storage capacity being exceeded by supply.

    They have about a week before they have to start shutting down wells, which can cause permanent damage to facilities. This is the calculation of the Americans, that will get Iran to start negotiating about their nuclear weapons programme.
  • eekeek Posts: 33,922
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://x.com/reuters/status/2049103389854929105

    BREAKING: The United Arab Emirates said it quit OPEC and OPEC+, dealing a heavy blow to the oil exporting groups and their de facto leader, Saudi Arabia, at a time when the Iran war has caused a historic energy shock and unsettled the global economy

    Watch for oil prices to start falling. UAE is about to start pumping like crazy to stop Iran and Russia from benefitting from the situation.
    And Trump has just said that Iranians have told him they are 'in a state of collapse' and want him to open Hormuz asap.

    Do we believe him or not?
    The problem the Iranians have, is that the US blockade on their ports is leading to their oil storage capacity being exceeded by supply.

    They have about a week before they have to start shutting down wells, which can cause permanent damage to facilities. This is the calculation of the Americans, that will get Iran to start negotiating about their nuclear weapons programme.
    That's already been pointed out by @Richard_Tyndall to be a load of rubbish. it's only underwater oil wells that have problems restarting...

    And strangely enough I would trust @Richard_Tyndall's comments far more than Trump's
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 43,520
    @vermontgmg.bsky.social‬

    The Justice Department seems to be going out of its way to avoid saying that Cole Allen didn't fire any weapons at all inside the Washington Hilton — and that the officer hit was most likely hit by friendly fire.

    https://bsky.app/profile/vermontgmg.bsky.social/post/3mkkszuowws2z
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 79,490
    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://x.com/reuters/status/2049103389854929105

    BREAKING: The United Arab Emirates said it quit OPEC and OPEC+, dealing a heavy blow to the oil exporting groups and their de facto leader, Saudi Arabia, at a time when the Iran war has caused a historic energy shock and unsettled the global economy

    Watch for oil prices to start falling. UAE is about to start pumping like crazy to stop Iran and Russia from benefitting from the situation.
    Do they have a route to get the oil out that avoids Hormuz ?
    Yes, they can get 1.5m bpd out through a pipeline at the port of Fujairah (on the East coast of UAE).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habshan-Fujairah_oil_pipeline

    Current UAE production is around 2m bpd, the suggestion is that they have capacity for 5m bpd, and an economy diversified enough to withstand lower prices, unlike most other OPEC countries.
    Unless I am missing something, they can produce 5mbpd but can only get rather less than a third of that to Fujairah.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 63,547
    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://x.com/reuters/status/2049103389854929105

    BREAKING: The United Arab Emirates said it quit OPEC and OPEC+, dealing a heavy blow to the oil exporting groups and their de facto leader, Saudi Arabia, at a time when the Iran war has caused a historic energy shock and unsettled the global economy

    Watch for oil prices to start falling. UAE is about to start pumping like crazy to stop Iran and Russia from benefitting from the situation.
    And Trump has just said that Iranians have told him they are 'in a state of collapse' and want him to open Hormuz asap.

    Do we believe him or not?
    The problem the Iranians have, is that the US blockade on their ports is leading to their oil storage capacity being exceeded by supply.

    They have about a week before they have to start shutting down wells, which can cause permanent damage to facilities. This is the calculation of the Americans, that will get Iran to start negotiating about their nuclear weapons programme.
    That's already been pointed out by @Richard_Tyndall to be a load of rubbish. it's only underwater oil wells that have problems restarting...

    And strangely enough I would trust @Richard_Tyndall's comments far more than Trump's
    There is a caveat of whether they are naturally pressurised wells or if they have been pushing stuff into the ground to get more oil out.

    In the later case, restarts can be… different. All very dependent on the geology, technology and expertise involved.
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,159
    Reform has a celebrity backer


  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,491
    Pulpstar said:

    I don't want to alarm anybody but my firm's worst worst case scenario involved the break up of OPEC.

    Eh ? I'd have thought the end of OPEC would be a good thing. Should increase global supply as nations are in competition rather than cartel with one another.

    Or are they going to start blowing up each others infrastructure and cheating like Man City ?
    My gut is the same.

    An end to OPEC would mean an end to supply restrictions and a return to every man for himself, which would mean more supply.

    However, it's worth noting that (a) OPEC is much less important than it was thanks to the new supply from the US; and (b) even if Iran were to leave OPEC, then the Saudis, Kuwaitis and the like would probably still act (either formally or informally) to restrict supply somewhat and increase prices.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,380
    Thanks @Fishing for an interesting header.

    On Net contribution to EU budget I was wondering whether there are any studies on the multiplier effect of of our own UK based spending vs EU spending in the UK?

    I was involved in large EU projects in the late 1990s and it all seemed very clunky and obsessed with processology.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,954

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://x.com/reuters/status/2049103389854929105

    BREAKING: The United Arab Emirates said it quit OPEC and OPEC+, dealing a heavy blow to the oil exporting groups and their de facto leader, Saudi Arabia, at a time when the Iran war has caused a historic energy shock and unsettled the global economy

    Watch for oil prices to start falling. UAE is about to start pumping like crazy to stop Iran and Russia from benefitting from the situation.
    And Trump has just said that Iranians have told him they are 'in a state of collapse' and want him to open Hormuz asap.

    Do we believe him or not?
    The problem the Iranians have, is that the US blockade on their ports is leading to their oil storage capacity being exceeded by supply.

    They have about a week before they have to start shutting down wells, which can cause permanent damage to facilities. This is the calculation of the Americans, that will get Iran to start negotiating about their nuclear weapons programme.
    That's already been pointed out by @Richard_Tyndall to be a load of rubbish. it's only underwater oil wells that have problems restarting...

    And strangely enough I would trust @Richard_Tyndall's comments far more than Trump's
    There is a caveat of whether they are naturally pressurised wells or if they have been pushing stuff into the ground to get more oil out.

    In the later case, restarts can be… different. All very dependent on the geology, technology and expertise involved.
    Surely if restarts are problematic, and you expect the disruption to only be short term, you just flare the excess off?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 39,816
    Taz said:

    Reform has a celebrity backer


    "There's only one word for that – magic darts!"
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 63,547
    edited April 28
    theProle said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://x.com/reuters/status/2049103389854929105

    BREAKING: The United Arab Emirates said it quit OPEC and OPEC+, dealing a heavy blow to the oil exporting groups and their de facto leader, Saudi Arabia, at a time when the Iran war has caused a historic energy shock and unsettled the global economy

    Watch for oil prices to start falling. UAE is about to start pumping like crazy to stop Iran and Russia from benefitting from the situation.
    And Trump has just said that Iranians have told him they are 'in a state of collapse' and want him to open Hormuz asap.

    Do we believe him or not?
    The problem the Iranians have, is that the US blockade on their ports is leading to their oil storage capacity being exceeded by supply.

    They have about a week before they have to start shutting down wells, which can cause permanent damage to facilities. This is the calculation of the Americans, that will get Iran to start negotiating about their nuclear weapons programme.
    That's already been pointed out by @Richard_Tyndall to be a load of rubbish. it's only underwater oil wells that have problems restarting...

    And strangely enough I would trust @Richard_Tyndall's comments far more than Trump's
    There is a caveat of whether they are naturally pressurised wells or if they have been pushing stuff into the ground to get more oil out.

    In the later case, restarts can be… different. All very dependent on the geology, technology and expertise involved.
    Surely if restarts are problematic, and you expect the disruption to only be short term, you just flare the excess off?
    We are talking about oil. Crude doesn’t burn well - leaves a big, sticky mess.

    Edit : you can flare gas. If you have setup the flaring capacity.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,491

    theProle said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://x.com/reuters/status/2049103389854929105

    BREAKING: The United Arab Emirates said it quit OPEC and OPEC+, dealing a heavy blow to the oil exporting groups and their de facto leader, Saudi Arabia, at a time when the Iran war has caused a historic energy shock and unsettled the global economy

    Watch for oil prices to start falling. UAE is about to start pumping like crazy to stop Iran and Russia from benefitting from the situation.
    And Trump has just said that Iranians have told him they are 'in a state of collapse' and want him to open Hormuz asap.

    Do we believe him or not?
    The problem the Iranians have, is that the US blockade on their ports is leading to their oil storage capacity being exceeded by supply.

    They have about a week before they have to start shutting down wells, which can cause permanent damage to facilities. This is the calculation of the Americans, that will get Iran to start negotiating about their nuclear weapons programme.
    That's already been pointed out by @Richard_Tyndall to be a load of rubbish. it's only underwater oil wells that have problems restarting...

    And strangely enough I would trust @Richard_Tyndall's comments far more than Trump's
    There is a caveat of whether they are naturally pressurised wells or if they have been pushing stuff into the ground to get more oil out.

    In the later case, restarts can be… different. All very dependent on the geology, technology and expertise involved.
    Surely if restarts are problematic, and you expect the disruption to only be short term, you just flare the excess off?
    We are talking about oil. Crude doesn’t burn well - leaves a big, sticky messs.
    (Point of order: depends on the type of crude.)
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 23,198

    theProle said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://x.com/reuters/status/2049103389854929105

    BREAKING: The United Arab Emirates said it quit OPEC and OPEC+, dealing a heavy blow to the oil exporting groups and their de facto leader, Saudi Arabia, at a time when the Iran war has caused a historic energy shock and unsettled the global economy

    Watch for oil prices to start falling. UAE is about to start pumping like crazy to stop Iran and Russia from benefitting from the situation.
    And Trump has just said that Iranians have told him they are 'in a state of collapse' and want him to open Hormuz asap.

    Do we believe him or not?
    The problem the Iranians have, is that the US blockade on their ports is leading to their oil storage capacity being exceeded by supply.

    They have about a week before they have to start shutting down wells, which can cause permanent damage to facilities. This is the calculation of the Americans, that will get Iran to start negotiating about their nuclear weapons programme.
    That's already been pointed out by @Richard_Tyndall to be a load of rubbish. it's only underwater oil wells that have problems restarting...

    And strangely enough I would trust @Richard_Tyndall's comments far more than Trump's
    There is a caveat of whether they are naturally pressurised wells or if they have been pushing stuff into the ground to get more oil out.

    In the later case, restarts can be… different. All very dependent on the geology, technology and expertise involved.
    Surely if restarts are problematic, and you expect the disruption to only be short term, you just flare the excess off?
    We are talking about oil. Crude doesn’t burn well - leaves a big, sticky mess.

    Edit : you can flare gas. If you have setup the flaring capacity.
    According to my wife I have excellent flaring capacity.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 63,547
    rcs1000 said:

    theProle said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://x.com/reuters/status/2049103389854929105

    BREAKING: The United Arab Emirates said it quit OPEC and OPEC+, dealing a heavy blow to the oil exporting groups and their de facto leader, Saudi Arabia, at a time when the Iran war has caused a historic energy shock and unsettled the global economy

    Watch for oil prices to start falling. UAE is about to start pumping like crazy to stop Iran and Russia from benefitting from the situation.
    And Trump has just said that Iranians have told him they are 'in a state of collapse' and want him to open Hormuz asap.

    Do we believe him or not?
    The problem the Iranians have, is that the US blockade on their ports is leading to their oil storage capacity being exceeded by supply.

    They have about a week before they have to start shutting down wells, which can cause permanent damage to facilities. This is the calculation of the Americans, that will get Iran to start negotiating about their nuclear weapons programme.
    That's already been pointed out by @Richard_Tyndall to be a load of rubbish. it's only underwater oil wells that have problems restarting...

    And strangely enough I would trust @Richard_Tyndall's comments far more than Trump's
    There is a caveat of whether they are naturally pressurised wells or if they have been pushing stuff into the ground to get more oil out.

    In the later case, restarts can be… different. All very dependent on the geology, technology and expertise involved.
    Surely if restarts are problematic, and you expect the disruption to only be short term, you just flare the excess off?
    We are talking about oil. Crude doesn’t burn well - leaves a big, sticky messs.
    (Point of order: depends on the type of crude.)
    True, there is Saudi crude that’s so light you can kinda run a diesel truck off it. Unprocessed. But that will be Rollin’ Coal with a vengeance.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 43,520
    In Tuapse, burning oil products are flowing through rivers and into the streets. #Russia

    https://bsky.app/profile/noelreports.com/post/3mkkubknpek24
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,689
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://x.com/reuters/status/2049103389854929105

    BREAKING: The United Arab Emirates said it quit OPEC and OPEC+, dealing a heavy blow to the oil exporting groups and their de facto leader, Saudi Arabia, at a time when the Iran war has caused a historic energy shock and unsettled the global economy

    Watch for oil prices to start falling. UAE is about to start pumping like crazy to stop Iran and Russia from benefitting from the situation.
    Do they have a route to get the oil out that avoids Hormuz ?
    Yes, they can get 1.5m bpd out through a pipeline at the port of Fujairah (on the East coast of UAE).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habshan-Fujairah_oil_pipeline

    Current UAE production is around 2m bpd, the suggestion is that they have capacity for 5m bpd, and an economy diversified enough to withstand lower prices, unlike most other OPEC countries.
    Unless I am missing something, they can produce 5mbpd but can only get rather less than a third of that to Fujairah.
    Yes, but the UAE isn’t thinking about next week, they’re thinking about next year.

    They’re one of the countries most constrained by OPEC in terms of their actual vs potential supply.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,491
    The biggest losers from the end of OPEC will be US unconventional producers.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 63,547
    rcs1000 said:

    The biggest losers from the end of OPEC will be US unconventional producers.

    It would be interesting to see the curve of the viability of US production as the price falls.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 3,146

    Taz said:

    Reform has a celebrity backer


    "There's only one word for that – magic darts!"
    Why's he stood in front of a wind turbine?
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 3,146

    theProle said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://x.com/reuters/status/2049103389854929105

    BREAKING: The United Arab Emirates said it quit OPEC and OPEC+, dealing a heavy blow to the oil exporting groups and their de facto leader, Saudi Arabia, at a time when the Iran war has caused a historic energy shock and unsettled the global economy

    Watch for oil prices to start falling. UAE is about to start pumping like crazy to stop Iran and Russia from benefitting from the situation.
    And Trump has just said that Iranians have told him they are 'in a state of collapse' and want him to open Hormuz asap.

    Do we believe him or not?
    The problem the Iranians have, is that the US blockade on their ports is leading to their oil storage capacity being exceeded by supply.

    They have about a week before they have to start shutting down wells, which can cause permanent damage to facilities. This is the calculation of the Americans, that will get Iran to start negotiating about their nuclear weapons programme.
    That's already been pointed out by @Richard_Tyndall to be a load of rubbish. it's only underwater oil wells that have problems restarting...

    And strangely enough I would trust @Richard_Tyndall's comments far more than Trump's
    There is a caveat of whether they are naturally pressurised wells or if they have been pushing stuff into the ground to get more oil out.

    In the later case, restarts can be… different. All very dependent on the geology, technology and expertise involved.
    Surely if restarts are problematic, and you expect the disruption to only be short term, you just flare the excess off?
    We are talking about oil. Crude doesn’t burn well - leaves a big, sticky mess.

    Edit : you can flare gas. If you have setup the flaring capacity.
    Amateur - The Kazakhs flared it for years with no flare set up, you just need to ignite it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 63,547
    Scott_xP said:

    In Tuapse, burning oil products are flowing through rivers and into the streets. #Russia

    https://bsky.app/profile/noelreports.com/post/3mkkubknpek24

    Which illustrates what burning off most crudes looks like.

    Not very nice.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,689
    What looks like a reasonable analysis of the UAE decision:

    https://x.com/knesix/status/2049125985644093671

    Conclusion:
    The UAE is gambling that the era of cooperative hoarding is over. They are betting that in a world of war and energy transitions, the winner isn't the one who waits for the group, but the one who moves the fastest to monetize their resources.

    And they're all in in the highest-stakes game theory bet of recent times.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 18,475
    Two things that were supposed to happen after Brexit but haven't: it hasn't brought the UK and US closer together (in fact the opposite has happened), and it hasn't made it easier for the rest of the EU to deepen its integration without the British acting as a drag. From this I deduce that the UK was a better fit within the EU than people thought.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 64,491
    Dopermean said:

    theProle said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://x.com/reuters/status/2049103389854929105

    BREAKING: The United Arab Emirates said it quit OPEC and OPEC+, dealing a heavy blow to the oil exporting groups and their de facto leader, Saudi Arabia, at a time when the Iran war has caused a historic energy shock and unsettled the global economy

    Watch for oil prices to start falling. UAE is about to start pumping like crazy to stop Iran and Russia from benefitting from the situation.
    And Trump has just said that Iranians have told him they are 'in a state of collapse' and want him to open Hormuz asap.

    Do we believe him or not?
    The problem the Iranians have, is that the US blockade on their ports is leading to their oil storage capacity being exceeded by supply.

    They have about a week before they have to start shutting down wells, which can cause permanent damage to facilities. This is the calculation of the Americans, that will get Iran to start negotiating about their nuclear weapons programme.
    That's already been pointed out by @Richard_Tyndall to be a load of rubbish. it's only underwater oil wells that have problems restarting...

    And strangely enough I would trust @Richard_Tyndall's comments far more than Trump's
    There is a caveat of whether they are naturally pressurised wells or if they have been pushing stuff into the ground to get more oil out.

    In the later case, restarts can be… different. All very dependent on the geology, technology and expertise involved.
    Surely if restarts are problematic, and you expect the disruption to only be short term, you just flare the excess off?
    We are talking about oil. Crude doesn’t burn well - leaves a big, sticky mess.

    Edit : you can flare gas. If you have setup the flaring capacity.
    Amateur - The Kazakhs flared it for years with no flare set up, you just need to ignite it.
    Depends on the type of oil!

    Some oozes. Some spurts. Some you can stub a cigarette out in. Others is mixed with methane and would kill you if you lit up in the vicinity.
  • eekeek Posts: 33,922

    Two things that were supposed to happen after Brexit but haven't: it hasn't brought the UK and US closer together (in fact the opposite has happened), and it hasn't made it easier for the rest of the EU to deepen its integration without the British acting as a drag. From this I deduce that the UK was a better fit within the EU than people thought.

    I think Trump made some very valid assumptions, utterly irrelevant
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 20,965
    Nigelb said:

    @Fishing , you describe the UK's net contribution to the EU budget as "a straight drain on our economy". That's as bad an error as any you have spotted in the NBER paper. Some of that money was spent on services, e.g. medicines regulation, food safety, that benefitted the UK and which we now have to pay for at a national level (losing the efficiency savings of doing these things at scale).

    The "net contribution" was calculated after the rebate, and after UK public sector receipts back from the EU.
    Of course the EU also directly funded UK organisations, to the tune of £1.5 billion – £2.5 billion annually.

    That ought to be included in Fishing's calculation, and isn't - so his number is about 20% out from reality.
    Yeah. Just as one example, the UK always got a lot of HORIZON funding, so we got more back from that than we put in, but I don't think that was included in the net contribution figure.

    We are now back in HORIZON (I'm on a bid that's just gone in), but I don't know on what deal.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,954

    theProle said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://x.com/reuters/status/2049103389854929105

    BREAKING: The United Arab Emirates said it quit OPEC and OPEC+, dealing a heavy blow to the oil exporting groups and their de facto leader, Saudi Arabia, at a time when the Iran war has caused a historic energy shock and unsettled the global economy

    Watch for oil prices to start falling. UAE is about to start pumping like crazy to stop Iran and Russia from benefitting from the situation.
    And Trump has just said that Iranians have told him they are 'in a state of collapse' and want him to open Hormuz asap.

    Do we believe him or not?
    The problem the Iranians have, is that the US blockade on their ports is leading to their oil storage capacity being exceeded by supply.

    They have about a week before they have to start shutting down wells, which can cause permanent damage to facilities. This is the calculation of the Americans, that will get Iran to start negotiating about their nuclear weapons programme.
    That's already been pointed out by @Richard_Tyndall to be a load of rubbish. it's only underwater oil wells that have problems restarting...

    And strangely enough I would trust @Richard_Tyndall's comments far more than Trump's
    There is a caveat of whether they are naturally pressurised wells or if they have been pushing stuff into the ground to get more oil out.

    In the later case, restarts can be… different. All very dependent on the geology, technology and expertise involved.
    Surely if restarts are problematic, and you expect the disruption to only be short term, you just flare the excess off?
    We are talking about oil. Crude doesn’t burn well - leaves a big, sticky mess.

    Edit : you can flare gas. If you have setup the flaring capacity.
    Ah - I was assuming that cude oil would flare happily if you got it hot enough.

    I've made parts for the internals of gas flare stacks - inside the flare tube they have a hollow torus made out of a very expensive heat resistant stainless with a load of nozzles in it to release the gas - it looks very much like an enormous kitchen gas hob.
    We had a contract pressing and machining the torus halves. Used to be a fairly regular job, but we've not had an order for ages, presumably because of the decline of North Sea production.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 20,965
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://x.com/reuters/status/2049103389854929105

    BREAKING: The United Arab Emirates said it quit OPEC and OPEC+, dealing a heavy blow to the oil exporting groups and their de facto leader, Saudi Arabia, at a time when the Iran war has caused a historic energy shock and unsettled the global economy

    Watch for oil prices to start falling. UAE is about to start pumping like crazy to stop Iran and Russia from benefitting from the situation.
    And Trump has just said that Iranians have told him they are 'in a state of collapse' and want him to open Hormuz asap.

    Do we believe him or not?
    Is there a 'y' in the day?

    If the answer's yes, the answer's no.
    Is there only one day without a "y" in it? Christmas Eve. I mean, you'd never call Christmas Eve "Wednesday" or whatever. It's Xmas Eve.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 17,563

    Two things that were supposed to happen after Brexit but haven't: it hasn't brought the UK and US closer together (in fact the opposite has happened), and it hasn't made it easier for the rest of the EU to deepen its integration without the British acting as a drag. From this I deduce that the UK was a better fit within the EU than people thought.

    Interesting points.
    I think there is a big orange reason behind #1 - though - although it would be harder for the UK to move towards the US with Trump in power, from the other point of view, Trump is just the latest in a long line of presidents who haven't liked us much: I think you have to go back to Bush before you find a president who was pro-UK (obviously I'd take the antipathy of Biden or Obama over, well, whatever Trump is).
    #2 is more interesting. Why has the ratchet come to a halt since Brexit? Has it taken Brexit to move the EU machine into a more pragmatic mode?
    I've said this before, but if only EU integration had come to a halt before the Lisbon treaty, or even the Maastricht treaty.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,430

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://x.com/reuters/status/2049103389854929105

    BREAKING: The United Arab Emirates said it quit OPEC and OPEC+, dealing a heavy blow to the oil exporting groups and their de facto leader, Saudi Arabia, at a time when the Iran war has caused a historic energy shock and unsettled the global economy

    Watch for oil prices to start falling. UAE is about to start pumping like crazy to stop Iran and Russia from benefitting from the situation.
    And Trump has just said that Iranians have told him they are 'in a state of collapse' and want him to open Hormuz asap.

    Do we believe him or not?
    Is there a 'y' in the day?

    If the answer's yes, the answer's no.
    Is there only one day without a "y" in it? Christmas Eve. I mean, you'd never call Christmas Eve "Wednesday" or whatever. It's Xmas Eve.
    Halloween.
    Mother's Day.

    Guido Fawkes?.......
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 50,719
    False precision is rife in this debate, as Fishing says, but one thing we can say for sure about Brexit is that people who voted for it on the grounds it would help the economy are still waiting for some decent evidence of it. The consensus is if anything the opposite. Ditto that it would make us stronger and more influential in the world. The opposite has transpired there too. Same on immigration. Far from taking the heat out of that it's become an even more contentious issue.

    Which leaves the sovereignty angle. That the point of Brexit was Brexit itself. It's a success by dint of having happened. For better or worse - with most metrics thus far indicating worse - we have taken back control. Forget all the rest, it is argued, this is the Brexit benefit. Pretty much the only one but nevertheless potentially big enough to justify almost a decade of division, paralysis and distraction.

    So what I'd like to ask Leave voters, given the importance of this, is do they feel it? Do they feel more sovereign now we aren't in the EU? Is the supposed Brexit dividend of being more in control something real and tangible to them? But wait, we don't have to ask them because the polls tell us the answer. Many of them now think it was a mistake and most of those who don't remain so hacked off they want to hand power to Nigel Farage and his bunch of chancers, fantasists and unsavouries. All in all, it's not a good report card.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 20,965
    Fishing said:

    @Fishing , you describe the UK's net contribution to the EU budget as "a straight drain on our economy". That's as bad an error as any you have spotted in the NBER paper. Some of that money was spent on services, e.g. medicines regulation, food safety, that benefitted the UK and which we now have to pay for at a national level (losing the efficiency savings of doing these things at scale).

    Thanks for the comment.

    That was one of the things I had to edit out of the paper, in which I pointed out that around 4% of the EU's budget goes on public administration so such sums are relatively trivial. In addition there are residual UK contributions to pensions, which I didn't offset.

    I also left out that on the remainder of the UK's contributions we can reoptimise them according to our national priorities, i.e. away from agricultural subsidies and regional aid, improving efficiency.

    Even then, my article was much too long.

    I don't agree that 4% of 0.5% is equivalent to 6-8% or anything like it.

    As it said, it wasn't meant as a full academic paper - just some thoughts to indicate an order of magnitude.
    There's a lot of bureaucracy where the EU brought huge efficiency savings. For example, you only have to regulate medicines once, rather than each country doing it separately.

    In terms of reoptimising medicines regulation according to our national priorities... well, what's optimal for drug manufacturers is to have one process (EU) rather than two (EU, UK). It's not just about the money spent on employing people in a regulatory agency. There's also the knock on of regulatory divergence. UK companies have to spend more on the regulatory process, as they need to go through the UK and EU processes (the EU is too big a market to ignore + NI is under the EU rules). EU companies may just not bother with the UK, so we miss out. In practice, we probably end up following the EU decisions closely (but with some extra paperwork). In other words, we're back to being rule takers, not rule makers.

    Now, repeat that for food safety stuff, aviation regulation. Etc. etc. etc.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 59,789
    algarkirk said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://x.com/reuters/status/2049103389854929105

    BREAKING: The United Arab Emirates said it quit OPEC and OPEC+, dealing a heavy blow to the oil exporting groups and their de facto leader, Saudi Arabia, at a time when the Iran war has caused a historic energy shock and unsettled the global economy

    Watch for oil prices to start falling. UAE is about to start pumping like crazy to stop Iran and Russia from benefitting from the situation.
    And Trump has just said that Iranians have told him they are 'in a state of collapse' and want him to open Hormuz asap.

    Do we believe him or not?
    Is there a 'y' in the day?

    If the answer's yes, the answer's no.
    Is there only one day without a "y" in it? Christmas Eve. I mean, you'd never call Christmas Eve "Wednesday" or whatever. It's Xmas Eve.
    Halloween.
    Mother's Day.

    Guido Fawkes?.......
    Mother's Day has a "y"!
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 20,965
    algarkirk said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://x.com/reuters/status/2049103389854929105

    BREAKING: The United Arab Emirates said it quit OPEC and OPEC+, dealing a heavy blow to the oil exporting groups and their de facto leader, Saudi Arabia, at a time when the Iran war has caused a historic energy shock and unsettled the global economy

    Watch for oil prices to start falling. UAE is about to start pumping like crazy to stop Iran and Russia from benefitting from the situation.
    And Trump has just said that Iranians have told him they are 'in a state of collapse' and want him to open Hormuz asap.

    Do we believe him or not?
    Is there a 'y' in the day?

    If the answer's yes, the answer's no.
    Is there only one day without a "y" in it? Christmas Eve. I mean, you'd never call Christmas Eve "Wednesday" or whatever. It's Xmas Eve.
    Halloween.
    Mother's Day.

    Guido Fawkes?.......
    Mother's Day contains a 'y'. Hallowe'en is still a work day, you'd refer to it as "next Tuesday" in a work context.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,947
    Sandpit said:

    What looks like a reasonable analysis of the UAE decision:

    https://x.com/knesix/status/2049125985644093671

    Conclusion:
    The UAE is gambling that the era of cooperative hoarding is over. They are betting that in a world of war and energy transitions, the winner isn't the one who waits for the group, but the one who moves the fastest to monetize their resources.

    And they're all in in the highest-stakes game theory bet of recent times.

    How will they export this massive glut when they can't move it at the pre-war rate? I think the UAE are exporting at about half of their January rate. 4mbd -> 1.8mbd.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 20,965
    kinabalu said:

    False precision is rife in this debate, as Fishing says, but one thing we can say for sure about Brexit is that people who voted for it on the grounds it would help the economy are still waiting for some decent evidence of it. The consensus is if anything the opposite. Ditto that it would make us stronger and more influential in the world. The opposite has transpired there too. Same on immigration. Far from taking the heat out of that it's become an even more contentious issue.

    Which leaves the sovereignty angle. That the point of Brexit was Brexit itself. It's a success by dint of having happened. For better or worse - with most metrics thus far indicating worse - we have taken back control. Forget all the rest, it is argued, this is the Brexit benefit. Pretty much the only one but nevertheless potentially big enough to justify almost a decade of division, paralysis and distraction.

    So what I'd like to ask Leave voters, given the importance of this, is do they feel it? Do they feel more sovereign now we aren't in the EU? Is the supposed Brexit dividend of being more in control something real and tangible to them? But wait, we don't have to ask them because the polls tell us the answer. Many of them now think it was a mistake and most of those who don't remain so hacked off they want to hand power to Nigel Farage and his bunch of chancers, fantasists and unsavouries. All in all, it's not a good report card.

    Dan Hannan's ludicrous article with his fantasy of life after Brexit springs to mind. That's what Brexiteers promised.

    Some in this thread suggest that the overall effect of Brexit on the economy, and perhaps more generally, was fairly minor. Maybe that's correct, but had that been the prospectus offered, would people have voted for Brexit? No.
  • eekeek Posts: 33,922

    kinabalu said:

    False precision is rife in this debate, as Fishing says, but one thing we can say for sure about Brexit is that people who voted for it on the grounds it would help the economy are still waiting for some decent evidence of it. The consensus is if anything the opposite. Ditto that it would make us stronger and more influential in the world. The opposite has transpired there too. Same on immigration. Far from taking the heat out of that it's become an even more contentious issue.

    Which leaves the sovereignty angle. That the point of Brexit was Brexit itself. It's a success by dint of having happened. For better or worse - with most metrics thus far indicating worse - we have taken back control. Forget all the rest, it is argued, this is the Brexit benefit. Pretty much the only one but nevertheless potentially big enough to justify almost a decade of division, paralysis and distraction.

    So what I'd like to ask Leave voters, given the importance of this, is do they feel it? Do they feel more sovereign now we aren't in the EU? Is the supposed Brexit dividend of being more in control something real and tangible to them? But wait, we don't have to ask them because the polls tell us the answer. Many of them now think it was a mistake and most of those who don't remain so hacked off they want to hand power to Nigel Farage and his bunch of chancers, fantasists and unsavouries. All in all, it's not a good report card.

    Dan Hannan's ludicrous article with his fantasy of life after Brexit springs to mind. That's what Brexiteers promised.

    Some in this thread suggest that the overall effect of Brexit on the economy, and perhaps more generally, was fairly minor. Maybe that's correct, but had that been the prospectus offered, would people have voted for Brexit? No.
    Had people been told about the queues at airports I suspect that by itself may have swung things the other way
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,689

    Sandpit said:

    What looks like a reasonable analysis of the UAE decision:

    https://x.com/knesix/status/2049125985644093671

    Conclusion:
    The UAE is gambling that the era of cooperative hoarding is over. They are betting that in a world of war and energy transitions, the winner isn't the one who waits for the group, but the one who moves the fastest to monetize their resources.

    And they're all in in the highest-stakes game theory bet of recent times.

    How will they export this massive glut when they can't move it at the pre-war rate? I think the UAE are exporting at about half of their January rate. 4mbd -> 1.8mbd.
    They’re not looking at next week, they’re looking at next year.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 23,704
    Sandpit said:

    Not just the refinery at Tuapse on fire, the streets outside are on fire too.

    https://x.com/Osinttechnical/status/2049133334773575811

    Presumably Russia now has the right to blow up all Ukrainian energy facilities?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,689

    Sandpit said:

    Not just the refinery at Tuapse on fire, the streets outside are on fire too.

    https://x.com/Osinttechnical/status/2049133334773575811

    Presumably Russia now has the right to blow up all Ukrainian energy facilities?
    The Russians appear more interested in apartment blocks and hospitals.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 59,879
    edited April 28

    kinabalu said:

    False precision is rife in this debate, as Fishing says, but one thing we can say for sure about Brexit is that people who voted for it on the grounds it would help the economy are still waiting for some decent evidence of it. The consensus is if anything the opposite. Ditto that it would make us stronger and more influential in the world. The opposite has transpired there too. Same on immigration. Far from taking the heat out of that it's become an even more contentious issue.

    Which leaves the sovereignty angle. That the point of Brexit was Brexit itself. It's a success by dint of having happened. For better or worse - with most metrics thus far indicating worse - we have taken back control. Forget all the rest, it is argued, this is the Brexit benefit. Pretty much the only one but nevertheless potentially big enough to justify almost a decade of division, paralysis and distraction.

    So what I'd like to ask Leave voters, given the importance of this, is do they feel it? Do they feel more sovereign now we aren't in the EU? Is the supposed Brexit dividend of being more in control something real and tangible to them? But wait, we don't have to ask them because the polls tell us the answer. Many of them now think it was a mistake and most of those who don't remain so hacked off they want to hand power to Nigel Farage and his bunch of chancers, fantasists and unsavouries. All in all, it's not a good report card.

    Dan Hannan's ludicrous article with his fantasy of life after Brexit springs to mind. That's what Brexiteers promised.

    Some in this thread suggest that the overall effect of Brexit on the economy, and perhaps more generally, was fairly minor. Maybe that's correct, but had that been the prospectus offered, would people have voted for Brexit? No.
    If he'd suggested that investment in frontier tech in Europe would look like this after Brexit, he'd have been accused of over-egging it:

    https://www.svb.com/business-growth/global-expansion/ai-industry-trends-in-europe/
  • FishingFishing Posts: 6,356

    Thanks @Fishing for an interesting header.

    On Net contribution to EU budget I was wondering whether there are any studies on the multiplier effect of of our own UK based spending vs EU spending in the UK?

    I was involved in large EU projects in the late 1990s and it all seemed very clunky and obsessed with processology.

    No i don't think multiplier studies ever go down to that level of granularity.

    I couldn't even find any good estimates of exports/GDP multipliers.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,947
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    What looks like a reasonable analysis of the UAE decision:

    https://x.com/knesix/status/2049125985644093671

    Conclusion:
    The UAE is gambling that the era of cooperative hoarding is over. They are betting that in a world of war and energy transitions, the winner isn't the one who waits for the group, but the one who moves the fastest to monetize their resources.

    And they're all in in the highest-stakes game theory bet of recent times.

    How will they export this massive glut when they can't move it at the pre-war rate? I think the UAE are exporting at about half of their January rate. 4mbd -> 1.8mbd.
    They’re not looking at next week, they’re looking at next year.
    So how is any of this going to happen in the near term?

    'Watch for oil prices to start falling. UAE is about to start pumping like crazy to stop Iran and Russia from benefitting from the situation.'
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 59,879
    https://x.com/RapidResponse47/status/2049145537002197055

    @POTUS: "Honoring the British King might seem an ironic beginning to our celebration of 250 years of American independence — but in fact, no tribute could be more appropriate. Long before Americans had a nation or Constitution, we first had a culture, a character, and a creed. Before we ever proclaimed our independence, Americans carried within us the rarest of gifts: moral courage, and it came from a small but mighty kingdom from across the sea."
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 72,380
    Fishing said:

    Thanks @Fishing for an interesting header.

    On Net contribution to EU budget I was wondering whether there are any studies on the multiplier effect of of our own UK based spending vs EU spending in the UK?

    I was involved in large EU projects in the late 1990s and it all seemed very clunky and obsessed with processology.

    No i don't think multiplier studies ever go down to that level of granularity.

    I couldn't even find any good estimates of exports/GDP multipliers.
    As multiplier factors are so crucial for investment decisions you would have thought this might have been done. Maybe just too difficult?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 23,704
    edited April 28
    Looking forward to LE2026

    The current breakdown of council seat defences by party is as follows, out of a total of 4,992 up for election:
    🌹LAB: 2,196
    🌳CON: 1,134
    🔶LDM: 663
    🌍GRN: 170
    ➡️RFM: 78
    📍Localists: 49
    ℹ️Ind/Oth: 406
    ⬜Vacant: 34
    🆕Newly created: 162

    I reckon Greens will be looking to end with at least 1000.

    I believe SKS would bite your hand off to end up with 1000 and I reckon retain 600 max

    LDs should increase to around 1000

    Reform biggest gainers with circa 1500

    Con 500 msx

    Not long to wait for a night I will enjoy a lot.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,689

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    What looks like a reasonable analysis of the UAE decision:

    https://x.com/knesix/status/2049125985644093671

    Conclusion:
    The UAE is gambling that the era of cooperative hoarding is over. They are betting that in a world of war and energy transitions, the winner isn't the one who waits for the group, but the one who moves the fastest to monetize their resources.

    And they're all in in the highest-stakes game theory bet of recent times.

    How will they export this massive glut when they can't move it at the pre-war rate? I think the UAE are exporting at about half of their January rate. 4mbd -> 1.8mbd.
    They’re not looking at next week, they’re looking at next year.
    So how is any of this going to happen in the near term?

    'Watch for oil prices to start falling. UAE is about to start pumping like crazy to stop Iran and Russia from benefitting from the situation.'
    Both can be true. As soon as they can reliably get oil through the Straight, they’ll be upping production above where OPEC currently constrains them.

    Bonus points if the US blockade on Iranian ports holds for a bit longer.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 50,719

    https://x.com/RapidResponse47/status/2049145537002197055

    @POTUS: "Honoring the British King might seem an ironic beginning to our celebration of 250 years of American independence — but in fact, no tribute could be more appropriate. Long before Americans had a nation or Constitution, we first had a culture, a character, and a creed. Before we ever proclaimed our independence, Americans carried within us the rarest of gifts: moral courage, and it came from a small but mighty kingdom from across the sea."

    Oh god. There isn't a bucket big enough.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,520
    Sandpit said:

    https://x.com/reuters/status/2049103389854929105

    BREAKING: The United Arab Emirates said it quit OPEC and OPEC+, dealing a heavy blow to the oil exporting groups and their de facto leader, Saudi Arabia, at a time when the Iran war has caused a historic energy shock and unsettled the global economy

    Watch for oil prices to start falling. UAE is about to start pumping like crazy to stop Iran and Russia from benefitting from the situation.
    Can they make much of a difference without Iran withdrawing their blockade of Hormuz?

    AIUI they have the Abu Dhabi pipeline at 1.502 million bpd, but does that have spare capacity at present?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 20,965

    Looking forward to LE2026

    The current breakdown of council seat defences by party is as follows, out of a total of 4,992 up for election:
    🌹LAB: 2,196
    🌳CON: 1,134
    🔶LDM: 663
    🌍GRN: 170
    ➡️RFM: 78
    📍Localists: 49
    ℹ️Ind/Oth: 406
    ⬜Vacant: 34
    🆕Newly created: 162

    I reckon Greens will be looking to end with at least 1000.

    I believe SKS would bite your hand off to end up with 1000 and I reckon retain 600 max

    LDs should increase to around 1000

    Reform biggest gainers with circa 1500

    Con 500 msx

    Not long to wait for a night I will enjoy a lot.

    It's probably more a day after you will enjoy. Not many places are doing overnight counting!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 79,490
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://x.com/reuters/status/2049103389854929105

    BREAKING: The United Arab Emirates said it quit OPEC and OPEC+, dealing a heavy blow to the oil exporting groups and their de facto leader, Saudi Arabia, at a time when the Iran war has caused a historic energy shock and unsettled the global economy

    Watch for oil prices to start falling. UAE is about to start pumping like crazy to stop Iran and Russia from benefitting from the situation.
    Do they have a route to get the oil out that avoids Hormuz ?
    Yes, they can get 1.5m bpd out through a pipeline at the port of Fujairah (on the East coast of UAE).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habshan-Fujairah_oil_pipeline

    Current UAE production is around 2m bpd, the suggestion is that they have capacity for 5m bpd, and an economy diversified enough to withstand lower prices, unlike most other OPEC countries.
    Unless I am missing something, they can produce 5mbpd but can only get rather less than a third of that to Fujairah.
    Yes, but the UAE isn’t thinking about next week, they’re thinking about next year.

    They’re one of the countries most constrained by OPEC in terms of their actual vs potential supply.
    Fine, but that's not going to lead to oil prices falling in the short term, is it?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,689
    edited April 28
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://x.com/reuters/status/2049103389854929105

    BREAKING: The United Arab Emirates said it quit OPEC and OPEC+, dealing a heavy blow to the oil exporting groups and their de facto leader, Saudi Arabia, at a time when the Iran war has caused a historic energy shock and unsettled the global economy

    Watch for oil prices to start falling. UAE is about to start pumping like crazy to stop Iran and Russia from benefitting from the situation.
    Do they have a route to get the oil out that avoids Hormuz ?
    Yes, they can get 1.5m bpd out through a pipeline at the port of Fujairah (on the East coast of UAE).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habshan-Fujairah_oil_pipeline

    Current UAE production is around 2m bpd, the suggestion is that they have capacity for 5m bpd, and an economy diversified enough to withstand lower prices, unlike most other OPEC countries.
    Unless I am missing something, they can produce 5mbpd but can only get rather less than a third of that to Fujairah.
    Yes, but the UAE isn’t thinking about next week, they’re thinking about next year.

    They’re one of the countries most constrained by OPEC in terms of their actual vs potential supply.
    Fine, but that's not going to lead to oil prices falling in the short term, is it?
    The headline “Brent Crude” oil price, is actually a futures market about three months out, currently for July delivery.

    The spot price, for wanting a physical barrel of the stuff today or tomorrow, is currently about 30% higher.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,670
    .

    Nigelb said:

    @Fishing , you describe the UK's net contribution to the EU budget as "a straight drain on our economy". That's as bad an error as any you have spotted in the NBER paper. Some of that money was spent on services, e.g. medicines regulation, food safety, that benefitted the UK and which we now have to pay for at a national level (losing the efficiency savings of doing these things at scale).

    The "net contribution" was calculated after the rebate, and after UK public sector receipts back from the EU.
    Of course the EU also directly funded UK organisations, to the tune of £1.5 billion – £2.5 billion annually.

    That ought to be included in Fishing's calculation, and isn't - so his number is about 20% out from reality.
    Yeah. Just as one example, the UK always got a lot of HORIZON funding, so we got more back from that than we put in, but I don't think that was included in the net contribution figure.

    We are now back in HORIZON (I'm on a bid that's just gone in), but I don't know on what deal.
    The deal is now that we have to pay for any excess funding we get, which was not the case before.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,670
    kinabalu said:

    https://x.com/RapidResponse47/status/2049145537002197055

    @POTUS: "Honoring the British King might seem an ironic beginning to our celebration of 250 years of American independence — but in fact, no tribute could be more appropriate. Long before Americans had a nation or Constitution, we first had a culture, a character, and a creed. Before we ever proclaimed our independence, Americans carried within us the rarest of gifts: moral courage, and it came from a small but mighty kingdom from across the sea."

    Oh god. There isn't a bucket big enough.
    KFC value bucket ?
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 7,936

    Sandpit said:

    Not just the refinery at Tuapse on fire, the streets outside are on fire too.

    https://x.com/Osinttechnical/status/2049133334773575811

    Presumably Russia now has the right to blow up all Ukrainian energy facilities?
    And Ukraine has the “right” to conquer Moscow
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,961
    When isvthe vote on Starmer
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 19,659
    edited April 28
    Always good to be challenged on one's assumptions. Having pushed back on several of these challenges over the series, I feel the consensus of economists that Brexit has a modest but meaningful economic negative effect is the correct one. The consensus also passes the sniff test that leaving your main market must have some kind of impact. My priors are further corroborated by the inability of those in favour of Brexit to identify a single actual economic benefit to Brexit against the clearly identified negatives.

    One more challenge here on net versus gross contributions. Given the extra UK bureaucracy to handle regulation that was previously outsourced to the European Union, it is possible the net effect of leaving the EU is to actually increase public expenditure to obtain the same UK specific outputs.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 33,520
    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://x.com/reuters/status/2049103389854929105

    BREAKING: The United Arab Emirates said it quit OPEC and OPEC+, dealing a heavy blow to the oil exporting groups and their de facto leader, Saudi Arabia, at a time when the Iran war has caused a historic energy shock and unsettled the global economy

    Watch for oil prices to start falling. UAE is about to start pumping like crazy to stop Iran and Russia from benefitting from the situation.
    Do they have a route to get the oil out that avoids Hormuz ?
    Yes, they can get 1.5m bpd out through a pipeline at the port of Fujairah (on the East coast of UAE).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habshan-Fujairah_oil_pipeline

    Current UAE production is around 2m bpd, the suggestion is that they have capacity for 5m bpd, and an economy diversified enough to withstand lower prices, unlike most other OPEC countries.
    Answering my own question, oil industry news sites suggest that that pipeline has a capacity of 1.8m bpd, and is running at about 1.1m bpd.

    So that leaves short term upside of .7m bpd, which will help but is only about 3-4% of the Hormuz shortfall.

    I can see more capacity being built at pace !
  • ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://x.com/reuters/status/2049103389854929105

    BREAKING: The United Arab Emirates said it quit OPEC and OPEC+, dealing a heavy blow to the oil exporting groups and their de facto leader, Saudi Arabia, at a time when the Iran war has caused a historic energy shock and unsettled the global economy

    Watch for oil prices to start falling. UAE is about to start pumping like crazy to stop Iran and Russia from benefitting from the situation.
    And Trump has just said that Iranians have told him they are 'in a state of collapse' and want him to open Hormuz asap.

    Do we believe him or not?
    Is there a 'y' in the day?

    If the answer's yes, the answer's no.
    Is there only one day without a "y" in it? Christmas Eve. I mean, you'd never call Christmas Eve "Wednesday" or whatever. It's Xmas Eve.
    There are lots - New Ears Eve, Late Ma Bank Holibobs, International Women's Dave... the list goes on.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 6,356

    Fishing said:

    Thanks @Fishing for an interesting header.

    On Net contribution to EU budget I was wondering whether there are any studies on the multiplier effect of of our own UK based spending vs EU spending in the UK?

    I was involved in large EU projects in the late 1990s and it all seemed very clunky and obsessed with processology.

    No i don't think multiplier studies ever go down to that level of granularity.

    I couldn't even find any good estimates of exports/GDP multipliers.
    As multiplier factors are so crucial for investment decisions you would have thought this might have been done. Maybe just too difficult?
    Partly. I also think that all the oxygen gets sucked out of the room by fiscal multipliers, which are hugely controversial, and have been since Keynes.

    (And as it's been nearly a century and there's still no consensus on fiscal multipliers, maybe we're all just better off using a random number generator - everybody involved in economic modelling for any length of time gets thoughts like that occasionally.,,)
This discussion has been closed.