Al Carns get a lot of people saying he is the future Labour leader. I have noticed has the Starmer tick of unable to do an interview, without as son of a toolmaker "when I was in the military" every other answer.
The single biggest failures of Starmer/Reeves has been lack of vision and lack of comms. Literally anyone who is able to articulate what they actually want to achieve in politics and how to tackle some of the problems in our system would be better than the current lot.
I heard Starmer at PMQs and he is rubbish at speaking at the despatch box and answering the questions. Starmer shows no wit, no deftness, drones on, and his blaming the previous government is wearing very thin.
The thing is I can't honestly think of anyone else in the party who would be better than Starmer, his failings are on the politics side of things, there might be better speakers, who would drum up enthusiasm, but their instincts and abilities to govern may well be worse.
Maybe he should have a drink or two before appearing in public?
Starmer had what I think is a new tactic today. He hijacked one of Kemi's questions to make the government announcement on evacuations that would normally have been a separate statement.
6 0 starmer today
She didn't deserve 0
Worst Pmq performance I've ever seen.
Made
Truss Corbyn IDS
Look decent
A score draw then, after accounting for bias
Tempting to split the difference but Badenoch was genuinely dire at PMQs:
1. She got the tone wrong. Badenoch only has one mode - condescending smirk. When discussing the country going to war isn't the time to use it. 2. Her interventions didn't make sense. Badenoch could take her cues from Baroness Neville-Jones in her own party if she wanted to challenge Stamer on his handling of the Iran War crisis. Incidentally worth a watch: https://youtu.be/ODF0J9_3DYM?si=cY3yBtuwvL3yDOf5 3. PMQs is a gift to the Leader of the Opposition as they can showcase themselves as the alternative to the current PM. No-one would visualise Badenoch as the best alternative to Starmer, in the same circumstances, based on her performance at PMQs today. James Cleverly on the other hand ... water under the bridge I suppose
You're not exactly an unbiased source yourself though are you?
But, the fact is, everything has changed and been turned on it's head, now. Petty squabbles about who "won" PMQ's this week, seems kinda pointless.
If we are at the start of WW3 we may need to bring back Boris (and yes, I'm serious!)
The single biggest failures of Starmer/Reeves has been lack of vision and lack of comms. Literally anyone who is able to articulate what they actually want to achieve in politics and how to tackle some of the problems in our system would be better than the current lot.
I heard Starmer at PMQs and he is rubbish at speaking at the despatch box and answering the questions. Starmer shows no wit, no deftness, drones on, and his blaming the previous government is wearing very thin.
The thing is I can't honestly think of anyone else in the party who would be better than Starmer, his failings are on the politics side of things, there might be better speakers, who would drum up enthusiasm, but their instincts and abilities to govern may well be worse.
Maybe he should have a drink or two before appearing in public?
Starmer had what I think is a new tactic today. He hijacked one of Kemi's questions to make the government announcement on evacuations that would normally have been a separate statement.
6 0 starmer today
She didn't deserve 0
Worst Pmq performance I've ever seen.
Made
Truss Corbyn IDS
Look decent
A score draw then, after accounting for bias
Tempting to split the difference but Badenoch was genuinely dire at PMQs:
1. She got the tone wrong. Badenoch only has one mode - condescending smirk. When discussing the country going to war isn't the time to use it. 2. Her interventions didn't make sense. Badenoch could take her cues from Baroness Neville-Jones in her own party if she wanted to challenge Stamer on his handling of the Iran War crisis. Incidentally worth a watch: https://youtu.be/ODF0J9_3DYM?si=cY3yBtuwvL3yDOf5 3. PMQs is a gift to the Leader of the Opposition as they can showcase themselves as the alternative to the current PM. No-one would visualise Badenoch as the best alternative to Starmer, in the same circumstances, based on her performance at PMQs today. James Cleverly on the other hand ... water under the bridge I suppose
Yes, it wasn't one of her best performances today.
Katie Lam was angered by Sir Keir today. She has had a bit of a glow up. I was surprised to see Leon say she wasn't all that attractive. I think she is one of the most attractive female MPs
Summarising the Israeli government's position, Citrinowicz said: "If we can have a coup, great. If we can have people on the streets, great. If we can have a civil war, great. Israel couldn't care less about the future ... [or] the stability of Iran."
Stability is stagnation, it is not a good thing, especially when the stability is a dictatorship.
Instability enables progress.
Chaos over order? Well, it's a view and certainly valid to argue chaos means change of whatever nature.
Two World Wars last century and millions dead certainly piled on the change but people tire of unending chaos and want order of whatever form.
How often do we see revolutions which topple autarchies or dictatorships themselves lead to dictatorship and repression in the name of ending chaos and restoring order?
It may be simple for you but for many people the certainty of order (with all the restrictions) seems more attractive than the uncertainty of anarchy (what price "freedom" if there is no work, no money, no food and no law?).
'Give me liberty or give me death'.
Yes some may choose to turn to authoritarians to prefer order over instability. I never have and never will.
You might miss the Rule of Law though.
Law should always be pragmatic and flexible. That was always the English way, to have a flexible and amendable law, changeable by Parliament, not a hard and fast codified one.
The rigid dogmatic institutionalisation of "The Law" (TM) over and above flexibility and politics is a rather modern and not a positive invention.
Good news on that front - a little bird tells me the government is going to trial cyclists/horse riders being allowed to pass through red lights, as long as they give way to pedestrians (like a zebra crossing).
Exactly the kind of flexibility we need - red lights for pedal cycles was always a dreadful constriction on #freedom #magnacarta
Thought most cyclists already did that anyway...
I think that's the best argument for it. If you think cyclists are always going through red lights, the lack of fatalities as a result would suggest it's an unnecessary restriction.
I can't see how you could argue against 20mph limits (which do gave a significant impact on pedestrians) while opposing this.
If a cyclist goes through a red light and is hit and killed by a driver who did nothing wrong and went through a green light, then a couple of questions.
1: Should that driver be incarcerated? I have seen some here (can't remember if you're one) demand mandatory incarceration of all drivers involved in fatalities regardless of cause.
2: Should that driver be offered counselling for the trauma and who should fund it?
Our system has more flexibility than that.
1 - On driver incarceration, i don't think anyone argues hat
2 - I think a more appropriate route for trauma counselling would be from the insurance company of the "at fault" party as is currently obtainable via the settlement process or civil action. That is already in place.
Of course there is also the NHS. All parties in any situation usually get NHS services (are there exceptions - can costs be recovered from insurance companies?) so I see no particular difference.
Even in cases where there is presumed civil liability for the more vulnerable party further up the hierarchy in civil legal action around collisions - as is the case in approximately 35 of 40 European countries * - it is a rebuttable presumption, so just a starting point and a shifting of the burden of proof.
* UK, Ireland, Romania, Cyprus, and Malta are the exceptions.
1. Some here have argued it. If not you, then fair enough, would you oppose that?
2. If the at-fault party is a deceased cyclist, then what exactly is to be done about it? Hard to take a civil action against the deceased, and a bit morbid to try.
We've finally found a reason for you to support 20mph limits. After you've mown down the 90 year old who didn't look properly before stepping out, you do tend to get some grief from the family when you sue the estate. 60kg at 30mph is going to take out the radiator at least.
Given roads are safer than they've ever been, we should be putting the speed limit up to 40 in most places, not cutting it.
40 today is as safe as 30 was in the past, given improvements in safety technologies.
That is not true. SUV style cars with their higher bumpers are more likely to be fatal to pedestrians.
Al Carns get a lot of people saying he is the future Labour leader. I have noticed has the Starmer tick of unable to do an interview, without "when I was in the military" every other answer.
It's like first term at university with the "well, on my gap year" crowd.
BREAKING: Thousands of Iraqi Kurds have launched a ground offensive in Iran, U.S. official says. - FOX
Could end very well.
You were complaining there were no boots on the ground. Now there are.
Onwards to victory! 💪
To quote Wikipedia: "Iran's military forces are made up of approximately 610,000 active-duty personnel plus 350,000 reserve and trained personnel that can be mobilized when needed, bringing the country's military manpower to about 960,000 total personnel.[6] These numbers do not include the Police Command or Basij." Thousands of Iraqi Kurds may not be enough.
Numbers alone are not the entire story.
I am curious how many of those military forces want to fight and die for the Islamic regime, against heavy aerial bombardment and a passionate ground force that desires to be there?
And how many are conscripts who would melt away given the chance?
And once a dictatorship starts to lose its grip on the military, it is very close to the end.
Al Carns get a lot of people saying he is the future Labour leader. I have noticed has the Starmer tick of unable to do an interview, without "when I was in the military" every other answer.
It's like first term at university with the "well, on my gap year" crowd.
I mean to give him some credit he does do a lot better than most of the morons, but it gets tiring to listen to. Its one thing when talking about Iran, but it does it in every setting regardless of the question.
Delcy Rodriguez, who is the President of Venezuela, is doing a great job, and working with U.S. Representatives very well. The Oil is beginning to flow, and the professionalism and dedication between both Countries is a very nice thing to see. President DONALD J. TRUMP
Delcy Rodriguez, who is the President of Venezuela, is doing a great job, and working with U.S. Representatives very well. The Oil is beginning to flow, and the professionalism and dedication between both Countries is a very nice thing to see. President DONALD J. TRUMP
Ice cream for her, straight to bed for the Spanish again (as it seems the US think they have got them to change their mind and they have said no).
Cyprus High Commissioner Kyriacos Kouros sounding furious about the lack of British action to defend RAF Akrotiri, telling @skynews: 'Greek forces are present on the island, the French are coming - the least we expect is the British are present'
They didn’t ask us for help. They are playing anti UK politics. Stop helping them get rid of our basis Willy, you traitor.
So you don’t think the Cypriots have a right to be pissed off ?
They’re stuck with bases which end up targets anytime GB is involved in ME action . This screws their tourism industry and puts the local population at risk . Starmer took too long to clarify that the US wouldn’t be using the bases there and the UK should have had its assets there already .
Thank heavens the Greeks and French have come to help .
That’s a clueless post. It’s the other way around.
We are not sending Dragon to help Cyprus, they didn’t ask us for it, they went straight to their friends. Even before Dragon gets there, it’s the most defended bases in the entire war.
Greece and Cyprus exercise with Israel, that invited the drone both Hezbollah and Hamas have been promising them for years.
This is the same game what lost us the Chagos. Cyprus and their friends are making mugs of the lot of you.
Apologies for saying clueless post Nico. None of us are clueless, we just got different bits of knowledge giving different perspectives to add and discuss.
I’ve done tons of reading up on what’s going on with Cyprus this week, and all the sneaky politics involved, and it ties in identically with my reading up on Chagos. It’s a changed world out there, here in UK we need to wake up to it. The technical reality is Cyprus doesn’t need protection from UK warships. Nor does it want it. Dragon is late? It shouldn’t be going there for that reason. it’s not needed in med for that reason.
Greece and Cyprus have developed deep strategic partnerships with Israel, including joint military drills. Perhaps as consequence, Hezbollah and Hamas have for years been threatening Cyprus and Greece, so maybe no surprise drones have come from Hezbollah towards Cyprus, taking opportunity of fog of war to fire them, and not simply down to presence of UK military bases. The US Treasury has sanctioned Turkish-registered companies for helping Hezbollah evade sanctions and move Iranian funds and goods - Turkey normally favour Hamas not Shia Hezbollah, but working together now due to sharing common enemies.
Following the drone strike - according to Cyprus PM and President it is Starmer’s fault dragging Cyprus into this war - Greece reached out to Germany, Italy, France and Greece to help them. Greece and France quickly deployed anti-drone systems to the island, Greece has deployed warships and fighter jets. France frigates and aircraft carrier. ‘furious” Cyprus may seek to negotiate the British Sovereign Base Areas (SBAs) to only be used for humanitarian purposes in future, not as launchpads for any offensive strikes ever again. It’s anti UK politics - PBers and UK press and UK politicians should not assist Cyprus and their friends in this, it’s treason to do so.
Cyprus don’t want UK to have military bases in Cyprus, and nor does any of their friends. They want to move on from UK with other friends like Israel and EU allies. UK outside EU has to stop living in the past and 20th century mindset.
Delcy Rodriguez, who is the President of Venezuela, is doing a great job, and working with U.S. Representatives very well. The Oil is beginning to flow, and the professionalism and dedication between both Countries is a very nice thing to see. President DONALD J. TRUMP
Ice cream for her, straight to bed for the Spanish again (as it seems the US think they have got them to change their mind and they have said no).
Sanchez is arranging a meeting with Lula of Brazil
Two minutes of Tony Benn speaking in the Commons before the Iraq war.
I would struggle to agree with Tony Benn on any political matter but that was a great speech and highly apposite for these times. His articulacy puts the current House of Commons to shame, it really does.
This would be the Tony Benn who met and interviewed Saddam Hussein in 2003 as part of his attempt to stop the war and utterly failed to ask him the 5 questions he famously said all leaders should be asked -
What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can Iraqis get rid of you?
Two officers were suspended on full pay for *four years* over racist, misogynistic, homophobic messages
They resigned just before this week's gross misconduct hearing
This was a really simple case. When I asked the chief constable why...
... it took so long, he could only point to difficulties in finding people to fill the misconduct panel.
He said: "We share the same struggles as other police forces across the UK in getting a limited number of people who've got the ability to undertake these functions"..
He clearly didn't try very hard or look very far.
That's one explanation.
The other is that delaying until the person resigns saves face for everyone and avoids making any decisions, which is pretty much the standard modus operandi for the British state these days.
Or they just couldn't find any non bent coppers ?
It's utterly ridiculous as an excuse for what seems to have been standard practice since forever.
They would need to find senior non-bent coppers who don’t mind flushing their careers down the toilet.
In the world of the #NU10K passing judgement, in public, like that, is Poor Form. It suggests someone who isn’t a Safe Pair of Hands, Not A Team Player.
Letting the guilty do a runner via early retirement is better all round, for such people.
Al Carns get a lot of people saying he is the future Labour leader. I have noticed has the Starmer tick of unable to do an interview, without as son of a toolmaker "when I was in the military" every other answer.
I noticed he got all huffy on Monday cos the interviewer suggested he was being a bit scaredy by not stating an opinion on subject X (US actions in Iran I think).
1 - They run a $5bn goods surplus with Spain. I can't find services figures. 2 - Spanish trade policy is run by the EU more than Spain. 3 - Their base near Gibraltar is a key location for US carrier strike groups. It's not a good one to lose access for the USN.
1 - They run a $5bn goods surplus with Spain. I can't find services figures. 2 - Spanish trade policy is run by the EU more than Spain. 3 - Their base near Gibraltar is a key location for US carrier strike groups. It's not a good one to lose access for the USN.
It could end up blowing up the EU if some member states go in a seriously anti-American direction.
With all this ground invasion talk, let's try to remember that Iran is really quite big.
Compared to other conflict zones (or us), Iran is: - Iraq: 3.8x larger and 1.9x more people - Syria: 8.9x larger and 3.5x more people - Afghanistan: 2.5x larger and 2.1x more people - UK: 6.8x larger and 1.3x more people
My point being we can keep destroying shit from the air easily. But a few thousand Kurds with guns aren't going to take control of Iran.
Summarising the Israeli government's position, Citrinowicz said: "If we can have a coup, great. If we can have people on the streets, great. If we can have a civil war, great. Israel couldn't care less about the future ... [or] the stability of Iran."
Stability is stagnation, it is not a good thing, especially when the stability is a dictatorship.
Instability enables progress.
Chaos over order? Well, it's a view and certainly valid to argue chaos means change of whatever nature.
Two World Wars last century and millions dead certainly piled on the change but people tire of unending chaos and want order of whatever form.
How often do we see revolutions which topple autarchies or dictatorships themselves lead to dictatorship and repression in the name of ending chaos and restoring order?
It may be simple for you but for many people the certainty of order (with all the restrictions) seems more attractive than the uncertainty of anarchy (what price "freedom" if there is no work, no money, no food and no law?).
'Give me liberty or give me death'.
Yes some may choose to turn to authoritarians to prefer order over instability. I never have and never will.
You might miss the Rule of Law though.
Law should always be pragmatic and flexible. That was always the English way, to have a flexible and amendable law, changeable by Parliament, not a hard and fast codified one.
The rigid dogmatic institutionalisation of "The Law" (TM) over and above flexibility and politics is a rather modern and not a positive invention.
Good news on that front - a little bird tells me the government is going to trial cyclists/horse riders being allowed to pass through red lights, as long as they give way to pedestrians (like a zebra crossing).
Exactly the kind of flexibility we need - red lights for pedal cycles was always a dreadful constriction on #freedom #magnacarta
Thought most cyclists already did that anyway...
I think that's the best argument for it. If you think cyclists are always going through red lights, the lack of fatalities as a result would suggest it's an unnecessary restriction.
I can't see how you could argue against 20mph limits (which do gave a significant impact on pedestrians) while opposing this.
If a cyclist goes through a red light and is hit and killed by a driver who did nothing wrong and went through a green light, then a couple of questions.
1: Should that driver be incarcerated? I have seen some here (can't remember if you're one) demand mandatory incarceration of all drivers involved in fatalities regardless of cause.
2: Should that driver be offered counselling for the trauma and who should fund it?
If a pedestrian jaywalks...
The same questions apply. My main concern would be any impact on pedestrians taking advantage of the red light (cyclists should of course give way)
(I'm not sure whether I'm in favour of this move - depending how applied. Being able to turn left on a red would make sense - applies in other countries and works well)
They tried the left-turn on red just down the road from here but changed back after a while, I suspect because of near-misses with pedestrians. It works well in America (right turn there, of course) because they do not need to worry about people crossing the road.
With all this ground invasion talk, let's try to remember that Iran is really quite big.
Compared to other conflict zones (or us), Iran is: - Iraq: 3.8x larger and 1.9x more people - Syria: 8.9x larger and 3.5x more people - Afghanistan: 2.5x larger and 2.1x more people - UK: 6.8x larger and 1.3x more people
My point being we can keep destroying shit from the air easily. But a few thousand Kurds with guns aren't going to take control of Iran.
Its worth bearing in mind the estimated numbers of troops at the start of 2011 in Libya.
Loyalist forces numbers ~50,000 while rebels numbered a few thousand.
The loyalists should have had overwhelming numerical advantage, except two things happened. The aerial bombardment from NATO and tens of thousands of loyalists switched sides.
Iran being bigger and more numerous is both a blessing and a curse for the regime. Yes it has forces, but most of those forces will be in the wrong place for any engagement. And when an engagement happens, if one does, then three very different scenarios can play out for the troops.
1: do their troops fight to the death? 2: or do they switch sides? 3: or do they abandon their posts and run?
If the latter happens, as happened recently in Syria, then that can rapidly snowball.
With all this ground invasion talk, let's try to remember that Iran is really quite big.
Compared to other conflict zones (or us), Iran is: - Iraq: 3.8x larger and 1.9x more people - Syria: 8.9x larger and 3.5x more people - Afghanistan: 2.5x larger and 2.1x more people - UK: 6.8x larger and 1.3x more people
My point being we can keep destroying shit from the air easily. But a few thousand Kurds with guns aren't going to take control of Iran.
But they can strip out the regime and allow the citizenry to take control of areas as they push on.
The Kurds may only be thousands. But any centre of resistance to them will be brutally destroyed from the air. They press forward, while the area behind them is cleansed. Repeat continuously to Tehran.
With all this ground invasion talk, let's try to remember that Iran is really quite big.
Compared to other conflict zones (or us), Iran is: - Iraq: 3.8x larger and 1.9x more people - Syria: 8.9x larger and 3.5x more people - Afghanistan: 2.5x larger and 2.1x more people - UK: 6.8x larger and 1.3x more people
My point being we can keep destroying shit from the air easily. But a few thousand Kurds with guns aren't going to take control of Iran.
The single biggest failures of Starmer/Reeves has been lack of vision and lack of comms. Literally anyone who is able to articulate what they actually want to achieve in politics and how to tackle some of the problems in our system would be better than the current lot.
I heard Starmer at PMQs and he is rubbish at speaking at the despatch box and answering the questions. Starmer shows no wit, no deftness, drones on, and his blaming the previous government is wearing very thin.
The thing is I can't honestly think of anyone else in the party who would be better than Starmer, his failings are on the politics side of things, there might be better speakers, who would drum up enthusiasm, but their instincts and abilities to govern may well be worse.
Maybe he should have a drink or two before appearing in public?
Starmer had what I think is a new tactic today. He hijacked one of Kemi's questions to make the government announcement on evacuations that would normally have been a separate statement.
6 0 starmer today
She didn't deserve 0
Worst Pmq performance I've ever seen.
Made
Truss Corbyn IDS
Look decent
A score draw then, after accounting for bias
Tempting to split the difference but Badenoch was genuinely dire at PMQs:
1. She got the tone wrong. Badenoch only has one mode - condescending smirk. When discussing the country going to war isn't the time to use it. 2. Her interventions didn't make sense. Badenoch could take her cues from Baroness Neville-Jones in her own party if she wanted to challenge Stamer on his handling of the Iran War crisis. Incidentally worth a watch: https://youtu.be/ODF0J9_3DYM?si=cY3yBtuwvL3yDOf5 3. PMQs is a gift to the Leader of the Opposition as they can showcase themselves as the alternative to the current PM. No-one would visualise Badenoch as the best alternative to Starmer, in the same circumstances, based on her performance at PMQs today. James Cleverly on the other hand ... water under the bridge I suppose
Yes, it wasn't one of her best performances today.
Katie Lam was angered by Sir Keir today. She has had a bit of a glow up. I was surprised to see Leon say she wasn't all that attractive. I think she is one of the most attractive female MPs
Starmer suggested Katie Lam is on defection watch. Lam later raised a point of order that the PM had misquoted her.
With all this ground invasion talk, let's try to remember that Iran is really quite big.
Compared to other conflict zones (or us), Iran is: - Iraq: 3.8x larger and 1.9x more people - Syria: 8.9x larger and 3.5x more people - Afghanistan: 2.5x larger and 2.1x more people - UK: 6.8x larger and 1.3x more people
My point being we can keep destroying shit from the air easily. But a few thousand Kurds with guns aren't going to take control of Iran.
But they can strip out the regime and allow the citizenry to take control of areas as they push on.
The Kurds may only be thousands. But any centre of resistance to them will be brutally destroyed from the air. They press forward, while the area behind them is cleansed. Repeat continuously to Tehran.
When Assad fell the rebels just basically marched to Damascus and nobody engaged them. The 'loyal' troops just melted away and once the first did that, the rest just followed until Assad was seen flying to Russia.
Are Iranian conscripts going to want to engage the Kurds backed by American and Israeli aerial bombardment? Or do they save their own lives and run as the Syrians did?
1 - They run a $5bn goods surplus with Spain. I can't find services figures. 2 - Spanish trade policy is run by the EU more than Spain. 3 - Their base near Gibraltar is a key location for US carrier strike groups. It's not a good one to lose access for the USN.
It could end up blowing up the EU if some member states go in a seriously anti-American direction.
more likely to blow up the USA, people are sick of their machinations, time they had a poke in teh eye with a big stick
With all this ground invasion talk, let's try to remember that Iran is really quite big.
Compared to other conflict zones (or us), Iran is: - Iraq: 3.8x larger and 1.9x more people - Syria: 8.9x larger and 3.5x more people - Afghanistan: 2.5x larger and 2.1x more people - UK: 6.8x larger and 1.3x more people
My point being we can keep destroying shit from the air easily. But a few thousand Kurds with guns aren't going to take control of Iran.
But they can strip out the regime and allow the citizenry to take control of areas as they push on.
The Kurds may only be thousands. But any centre of resistance to them will be brutally destroyed from the air. They press forward, while the area behind them is cleansed. Repeat continuously to Tehran.
Is that the plan? And if it is, have you looked at Iran on a map? It is a big place.
That frigate was at the international fleet review in India BTW, along with US forces. This amounts to sinking a ship under a flag of truce so it's even worse than it seems
That's the reason the Sri lankan coast guard was all right there to rescue people from the water
Cyprus High Commissioner Kyriacos Kouros sounding furious about the lack of British action to defend RAF Akrotiri, telling @skynews: 'Greek forces are present on the island, the French are coming - the least we expect is the British are present'
They didn’t ask us for help. They are playing anti UK politics. Stop helping them get rid of our basis Willy, you traitor.
So you don’t think the Cypriots have a right to be pissed off ?
They’re stuck with bases which end up targets anytime GB is involved in ME action . This screws their tourism industry and puts the local population at risk . Starmer took too long to clarify that the US wouldn’t be using the bases there and the UK should have had its assets there already .
Thank heavens the Greeks and French have come to help .
That’s a clueless post. It’s the other way around.
We are not sending Dragon to help Cyprus, they didn’t ask us for it, they went straight to their friends. Even before Dragon gets there, it’s the most defended bases in the entire war.
Greece and Cyprus exercise with Israel, that invited the drone both Hezbollah and Hamas have been promising them for years.
This is the same game what lost us the Chagos. Cyprus and their friends are making mugs of the lot of you.
Apologies for saying clueless post Nico. None of us are clueless, we just got different bits of knowledge giving different perspectives to add and discuss.
I’ve done tons of reading up on what’s going on with Cyprus this week, and all the sneaky politics involved, and it ties in identically with my reading up on Chagos. It’s a changed world out there, here in UK we need to wake up to it. The technical reality is Cyprus doesn’t need protection from UK warships. Nor does it want it. Dragon is late? It shouldn’t be going there for that reason. it’s not needed in med for that reason.
Greece and Cyprus have developed deep strategic partnerships with Israel, including joint military drills. Perhaps as consequence, Hezbollah and Hamas have for years been threatening Cyprus and Greece, so maybe no surprise drones have come from Hezbollah towards Cyprus, taking opportunity of fog of war to fire them, and not simply down to presence of UK military bases. The US Treasury has sanctioned Turkish-registered companies for helping Hezbollah evade sanctions and move Iranian funds and goods - Turkey normally favour Hamas not Shia Hezbollah, but working together now due to sharing common enemies.
Following the drone strike - according to Cyprus PM and President it is Starmer’s fault dragging Cyprus into this war - Greece reached out to Germany, Italy, France and Greece to help them. Greece and France quickly deployed anti-drone systems to the island, Greece has deployed warships and fighter jets. France frigates and aircraft carrier. ‘furious” Cyprus may seek to negotiate the British Sovereign Base Areas (SBAs) to only be used for humanitarian purposes in future, not as launchpads for any offensive strikes ever again. It’s anti UK politics - PBers and UK press and UK politicians should not assist Cyprus and their friends in this, it’s treason to do so.
Cyprus don’t want UK to have military bases in Cyprus, and nor does any of their friends. They want to move on from UK with other friends like Israel and EU allies. UK outside EU has to stop living in the past and 20th century mindset.
The reason Dragon is late is she has had the builders in and is being rushed back out of maintenance. We don't have the ships anymore after four decades of Tory cuts, and one decade of Labour ordering new ships but the wrong sort.
With all this ground invasion talk, let's try to remember that Iran is really quite big.
Compared to other conflict zones (or us), Iran is: - Iraq: 3.8x larger and 1.9x more people - Syria: 8.9x larger and 3.5x more people - Afghanistan: 2.5x larger and 2.1x more people - UK: 6.8x larger and 1.3x more people
My point being we can keep destroying shit from the air easily. But a few thousand Kurds with guns aren't going to take control of Iran.
But they can strip out the regime and allow the citizenry to take control of areas as they push on.
The Kurds may only be thousands. But any centre of resistance to them will be brutally destroyed from the air. They press forward, while the area behind them is cleansed. Repeat continuously to Tehran.
When Assad fell the rebels just basically marched to Damascus and nobody engaged them. The 'loyal' troops just melted away and once the first did that, the rest just followed until Assad was seen flying to Russia.
Are Iranian conscripts going to want to engage the Kurds backed by American and Israeli aerial bombardment? Or do they save their own lives and run as the Syrians did?
And those rebels didn't have the world's finest warplanes flown by the world's finest pilots above them.
Pilots who will bomb schools or hospitals or mosques - wherever you might think to hide.
A spearhead that could destroy everything ahead of it. Word will spread. Social media will show the futility of engagement. The lethality of engagement.
Melting away will be the only outcome compatible with life.
With all this ground invasion talk, let's try to remember that Iran is really quite big.
Compared to other conflict zones (or us), Iran is: - Iraq: 3.8x larger and 1.9x more people - Syria: 8.9x larger and 3.5x more people - Afghanistan: 2.5x larger and 2.1x more people - UK: 6.8x larger and 1.3x more people
My point being we can keep destroying shit from the air easily. But a few thousand Kurds with guns aren't going to take control of Iran.
But they can strip out the regime and allow the citizenry to take control of areas as they push on.
The Kurds may only be thousands. But any centre of resistance to them will be brutally destroyed from the air. They press forward, while the area behind them is cleansed. Repeat continuously to Tehran.
Is that the plan? And if it is, have you looked at Iran on a map? It is a big place.
It being a big place means most Iranian forces will be at the wrong place for any engagement though.
And the Kurds don't need to take Tehran, or all of Iran, to be a nuisance. Even getting a foothold inside Iran, or liberating the Kurdish-majority region of Iran alone would do immense structural damage to the Iranian regime, which had previously looked invulnerable despite how unpopular it is.
Given how unpopular the regime is, given the aerial bombardments, given loss of land to the Kurds (even if its just some of it), given the Supreme Leader has shuffled off this mortal coil, do the rest of the armed forces at some point decide 'enough is enough' and change the flow of the war and oust the Mullahs?
There are many plausible routes from here to regime change, so long as the Americans and Israelis don't pull out prematurely - and I don't think the Israelis desire to pull out.
With all this ground invasion talk, let's try to remember that Iran is really quite big.
Compared to other conflict zones (or us), Iran is: - Iraq: 3.8x larger and 1.9x more people - Syria: 8.9x larger and 3.5x more people - Afghanistan: 2.5x larger and 2.1x more people - UK: 6.8x larger and 1.3x more people
My point being we can keep destroying shit from the air easily. But a few thousand Kurds with guns aren't going to take control of Iran.
But they can strip out the regime and allow the citizenry to take control of areas as they push on.
The Kurds may only be thousands. But any centre of resistance to them will be brutally destroyed from the air. They press forward, while the area behind them is cleansed. Repeat continuously to Tehran.
Is that the plan? And if it is, have you looked at Iran on a map? It is a big place.
It being a big place means most Iranian forces will be at the wrong place for any engagement though.
And the Kurds don't need to take Tehran, or all of Iran, to be a nuisance. Even getting a foothold inside Iran, or liberating the Kurdish-majority region of Iran alone would do immense structural damage to the Iranian regime, which had previously looked invulnerable despite how unpopular it is.
Given how unpopular the regime is, given the aerial bombardments, given loss of land to the Kurds (even if its just some of it), given the Supreme Leader has shuffled off this mortal coil, do the rest of the armed forces at some point decide 'enough is enough' and change the flow of the war and oust the Mullahs?
There are many plausible routes from here to regime change, so long as the Americans and Israelis don't pull out prematurely - and I don't think the Israelis desire to pull out.
I hate to point out the bleeding obvious here but even if some military strongman decides to oust the Mullahs he may still want to kill the Kurds to stop them threatening the new regime.
Anyone who thinks you can start a civil war and get the ideal outcome you want must have been asleep for the last 25 years.
Cyprus High Commissioner Kyriacos Kouros sounding furious about the lack of British action to defend RAF Akrotiri, telling @skynews: 'Greek forces are present on the island, the French are coming - the least we expect is the British are present'
They didn’t ask us for help. They are playing anti UK politics. Stop helping them get rid of our basis Willy, you traitor.
So you don’t think the Cypriots have a right to be pissed off ?
They’re stuck with bases which end up targets anytime GB is involved in ME action . This screws their tourism industry and puts the local population at risk . Starmer took too long to clarify that the US wouldn’t be using the bases there and the UK should have had its assets there already .
Thank heavens the Greeks and French have come to help .
That’s a clueless post. It’s the other way around.
We are not sending Dragon to help Cyprus, they didn’t ask us for it, they went straight to their friends. Even before Dragon gets there, it’s the most defended bases in the entire war.
Greece and Cyprus exercise with Israel, that invited the drone both Hezbollah and Hamas have been promising them for years.
This is the same game what lost us the Chagos. Cyprus and their friends are making mugs of the lot of you.
Apologies for saying clueless post Nico. None of us are clueless, we just got different bits of knowledge giving different perspectives to add and discuss.
I’ve done tons of reading up on what’s going on with Cyprus this week, and all the sneaky politics involved, and it ties in identically with my reading up on Chagos. It’s a changed world out there, here in UK we need to wake up to it. The technical reality is Cyprus doesn’t need protection from UK warships. Nor does it want it. Dragon is late? It shouldn’t be going there for that reason. it’s not needed in med for that reason.
Greece and Cyprus have developed deep strategic partnerships with Israel, including joint military drills. Perhaps as consequence, Hezbollah and Hamas have for years been threatening Cyprus and Greece, so maybe no surprise drones have come from Hezbollah towards Cyprus, taking opportunity of fog of war to fire them, and not simply down to presence of UK military bases. The US Treasury has sanctioned Turkish-registered companies for helping Hezbollah evade sanctions and move Iranian funds and goods - Turkey normally favour Hamas not Shia Hezbollah, but working together now due to sharing common enemies.
Following the drone strike - according to Cyprus PM and President it is Starmer’s fault dragging Cyprus into this war - Greece reached out to Germany, Italy, France and Greece to help them. Greece and France quickly deployed anti-drone systems to the island, Greece has deployed warships and fighter jets. France frigates and aircraft carrier. ‘furious” Cyprus may seek to negotiate the British Sovereign Base Areas (SBAs) to only be used for humanitarian purposes in future, not as launchpads for any offensive strikes ever again. It’s anti UK politics - PBers and UK press and UK politicians should not assist Cyprus and their friends in this, it’s treason to do so.
Cyprus don’t want UK to have military bases in Cyprus, and nor does any of their friends. They want to move on from UK with other friends like Israel and EU allies. UK outside EU has to stop living in the past and 20th century mindset.
It's quite a leap from establishing that countries like Cyorus, Greece, France and Isrsel.hsve lomg-established co-operation now, under the "EU-Med" + Israel, to suggesting that it's "treason" to help Cyprus.
The other day, MoonRabbit, you also suggested that Greece shouldn't help Cyprus because it was in Turkey's "headspace", which is quite a different view. That's such s divergent argument rom the above that I have to say it does appear as if you have a personal beef against Greek Cyprus.
Newsnight with a discussion on Iran between a soft-left winger in Rosena Allin-Khan and a more left-wing left-winger in the shape of Sam Kiley of the Independent. Not very balanced is it.
The single biggest failures of Starmer/Reeves has been lack of vision and lack of comms. Literally anyone who is able to articulate what they actually want to achieve in politics and how to tackle some of the problems in our system would be better than the current lot.
I heard Starmer at PMQs and he is rubbish at speaking at the despatch box and answering the questions. Starmer shows no wit, no deftness, drones on, and his blaming the previous government is wearing very thin.
The thing is I can't honestly think of anyone else in the party who would be better than Starmer, his failings are on the politics side of things, there might be better speakers, who would drum up enthusiasm, but their instincts and abilities to govern may well be worse.
Maybe he should have a drink or two before appearing in public?
Starmer had what I think is a new tactic today. He hijacked one of Kemi's questions to make the government announcement on evacuations that would normally have been a separate statement.
6 0 starmer today
She didn't deserve 0
Worst Pmq performance I've ever seen.
Made
Truss Corbyn IDS
Look decent
A score draw then, after accounting for bias
Tempting to split the difference but Badenoch was genuinely dire at PMQs:
1. She got the tone wrong. Badenoch only has one mode - condescending smirk. When discussing the country going to war isn't the time to use it. 2. Her interventions didn't make sense. Badenoch could take her cues from Baroness Neville-Jones in her own party if she wanted to challenge Stamer on his handling of the Iran War crisis. Incidentally worth a watch: https://youtu.be/ODF0J9_3DYM?si=cY3yBtuwvL3yDOf5 3. PMQs is a gift to the Leader of the Opposition as they can showcase themselves as the alternative to the current PM. No-one would visualise Badenoch as the best alternative to Starmer, in the same circumstances, based on her performance at PMQs today. James Cleverly on the other hand ... water under the bridge I suppose
Yes, it wasn't one of her best performances today.
Katie Lam was angered by Sir Keir today. She has had a bit of a glow up. I was surprised to see Leon say she wasn't all that attractive. I think she is one of the most attractive female MPs
Starmer suggested Katie Lam is on defection watch. Lam later raised a point of order that the PM had misquoted her.
Oh , I thought she was angry about his accusation of racism
"But forgive me if I don't take suggestions from the honorable member who said people legally and settled here should go home to ensure that the UK is culturally coherent.
"That is a grotesque way to talk about our friends and neighbours, and I rather suspect that her next question will come from her sitting up there." He then gestures to the Reform benches.
Newsnight with a discussion on Iran between a soft-left winger in Rosena Allin-Khan and a more left-wing left-winger in the shape of Sam Kiley of the Independent. Not very balanced is it.
I don't remember Sam Kiley being a super lefty when he was on Sky News (in the days when Sky News leant more right of centre, and massively more right than now). He was very good reporting from foreign conflicts in a straight down the line way i.e. not like that bloke on Ch4 who is like a student on Free Palestine / Stop the War demo.
War educates the senses, calls into action the will, perfects the physical constitution, brings PBers into such swift and close collision in critical moments that PBer measures PBer.
With all this ground invasion talk, let's try to remember that Iran is really quite big.
Compared to other conflict zones (or us), Iran is: - Iraq: 3.8x larger and 1.9x more people - Syria: 8.9x larger and 3.5x more people - Afghanistan: 2.5x larger and 2.1x more people - UK: 6.8x larger and 1.3x more people
My point being we can keep destroying shit from the air easily. But a few thousand Kurds with guns aren't going to take control of Iran.
But they can strip out the regime and allow the citizenry to take control of areas as they push on.
The Kurds may only be thousands. But any centre of resistance to them will be brutally destroyed from the air. They press forward, while the area behind them is cleansed. Repeat continuously to Tehran.
Is that the plan? And if it is, have you looked at Iran on a map? It is a big place.
It being a big place means most Iranian forces will be at the wrong place for any engagement though.
And the Kurds don't need to take Tehran, or all of Iran, to be a nuisance. Even getting a foothold inside Iran, or liberating the Kurdish-majority region of Iran alone would do immense structural damage to the Iranian regime, which had previously looked invulnerable despite how unpopular it is.
Given how unpopular the regime is, given the aerial bombardments, given loss of land to the Kurds (even if its just some of it), given the Supreme Leader has shuffled off this mortal coil, do the rest of the armed forces at some point decide 'enough is enough' and change the flow of the war and oust the Mullahs?
There are many plausible routes from here to regime change, so long as the Americans and Israelis don't pull out prematurely - and I don't think the Israelis desire to pull out.
I hate to point out the bleeding obvious here but even if some military strongman decides to oust the Mullahs he may still want to kill the Kurds to stop them threatening the new regime.
Anyone who thinks you can start a civil war and get the ideal outcome you want must have been asleep for the last 25 years.
I welcome civil war in Iran.
Any change from the status quo ante is an improvement, including outright civil war.
Who says it needs to be ideal? When are there any guarantees of ideal in real life?
That's like saying we shouldn't have replaced Sunak's government with Starmer's because Starmer has not been ideal.
The single biggest failures of Starmer/Reeves has been lack of vision and lack of comms. Literally anyone who is able to articulate what they actually want to achieve in politics and how to tackle some of the problems in our system would be better than the current lot.
I heard Starmer at PMQs and he is rubbish at speaking at the despatch box and answering the questions. Starmer shows no wit, no deftness, drones on, and his blaming the previous government is wearing very thin.
The thing is I can't honestly think of anyone else in the party who would be better than Starmer, his failings are on the politics side of things, there might be better speakers, who would drum up enthusiasm, but their instincts and abilities to govern may well be worse.
Maybe he should have a drink or two before appearing in public?
Starmer had what I think is a new tactic today. He hijacked one of Kemi's questions to make the government announcement on evacuations that would normally have been a separate statement.
6 0 starmer today
She didn't deserve 0
Worst Pmq performance I've ever seen.
Made
Truss Corbyn IDS
Look decent
A score draw then, after accounting for bias
Tempting to split the difference but Badenoch was genuinely dire at PMQs:
1. She got the tone wrong. Badenoch only has one mode - condescending smirk. When discussing the country going to war isn't the time to use it. 2. Her interventions didn't make sense. Badenoch could take her cues from Baroness Neville-Jones in her own party if she wanted to challenge Stamer on his handling of the Iran War crisis. Incidentally worth a watch: https://youtu.be/ODF0J9_3DYM?si=cY3yBtuwvL3yDOf5 3. PMQs is a gift to the Leader of the Opposition as they can showcase themselves as the alternative to the current PM. No-one would visualise Badenoch as the best alternative to Starmer, in the same circumstances, based on her performance at PMQs today. James Cleverly on the other hand ... water under the bridge I suppose
Yes, it wasn't one of her best performances today.
Katie Lam was angered by Sir Keir today. She has had a bit of a glow up. I was surprised to see Leon say she wasn't all that attractive. I think she is one of the most attractive female MPs
Starmer suggested Katie Lam is on defection watch. Lam later raised a point of order that the PM had misquoted her.
Oh , I thought she was angry about his accusation of racism
"But forgive me if I don't take suggestions from the honorable member who said people legally and settled here should go home to ensure that the UK is culturally coherent.
"That is a grotesque way to talk about our friends and neighbours, and I rather suspect that her next question will come from her sitting up there." He then gestures to the Reform benches.
Yes, that is probably it, and more-or-less what I said. Lam did not identify which part in her point of order – On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I believe the Prime Minister has inadvertently misled the House. I seek your guidance on how to get him to correct the record for claiming that I said something that I did not. https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2026-03-04/debates/13322AC4-D224-4407-B737-2FEB75AD5866/Engagements
ETA the defection watch part referred to Starmer suggesting Lam would soon be "up there" with Reform.
Newsnight with a discussion on Iran between a soft-left winger in Rosena Allin-Khan and a more left-wing left-winger in the shape of Sam Kiley of the Independent. Not very balanced is it.
Is it supposed to be balanced? Sam Kiley is a veteran war correspondent. Is he there as an expert or partisan?
Cyprus High Commissioner Kyriacos Kouros sounding furious about the lack of British action to defend RAF Akrotiri, telling @skynews: 'Greek forces are present on the island, the French are coming - the least we expect is the British are present'
They didn’t ask us for help. They are playing anti UK politics. Stop helping them get rid of our basis Willy, you traitor.
So you don’t think the Cypriots have a right to be pissed off ?
They’re stuck with bases which end up targets anytime GB is involved in ME action . This screws their tourism industry and puts the local population at risk . Starmer took too long to clarify that the US wouldn’t be using the bases there and the UK should have had its assets there already .
Thank heavens the Greeks and French have come to help .
That’s a clueless post. It’s the other way around.
We are not sending Dragon to help Cyprus, they didn’t ask us for it, they went straight to their friends. Even before Dragon gets there, it’s the most defended bases in the entire war.
Greece and Cyprus exercise with Israel, that invited the drone both Hezbollah and Hamas have been promising them for years.
This is the same game what lost us the Chagos. Cyprus and their friends are making mugs of the lot of you.
Apologies for saying clueless post Nico. None of us are clueless, we just got different bits of knowledge giving different perspectives to add and discuss.
I’ve done tons of reading up on what’s going on with Cyprus this week, and all the sneaky politics involved, and it ties in identically with my reading up on Chagos. It’s a changed world out there, here in UK we need to wake up to it. The technical reality is Cyprus doesn’t need protection from UK warships. Nor does it want it. Dragon is late? It shouldn’t be going there for that reason. it’s not needed in med for that reason.
Greece and Cyprus have developed deep strategic partnerships with Israel, including joint military drills. Perhaps as consequence, Hezbollah and Hamas have for years been threatening Cyprus and Greece, so maybe no surprise drones have come from Hezbollah towards Cyprus, taking opportunity of fog of war to fire them, and not simply down to presence of UK military bases. The US Treasury has sanctioned Turkish-registered companies for helping Hezbollah evade sanctions and move Iranian funds and goods - Turkey normally favour Hamas not Shia Hezbollah, but working together now due to sharing common enemies.
Following the drone strike - according to Cyprus PM and President it is Starmer’s fault dragging Cyprus into this war - Greece reached out to Germany, Italy, France and Greece to help them. Greece and France quickly deployed anti-drone systems to the island, Greece has deployed warships and fighter jets. France frigates and aircraft carrier. ‘furious” Cyprus may seek to negotiate the British Sovereign Base Areas (SBAs) to only be used for humanitarian purposes in future, not as launchpads for any offensive strikes ever again. It’s anti UK politics - PBers and UK press and UK politicians should not assist Cyprus and their friends in this, it’s treason to do so.
Cyprus don’t want UK to have military bases in Cyprus, and nor does any of their friends. They want to move on from UK with other friends like Israel and EU allies. UK outside EU has to stop living in the past and 20th century mindset.
It's quite a leap from establishing that countries like Cyorus, Greece, France and Isrsel.hsve lomg-established co-operation now, under the "EU-Med" + Israel, to suggesting that it's "treason" to help Cyprus.
The other day, MoonRabbit, you also suggested that Greece shouldn't help Cyprus because it was in Turkey's "headspace", which is quite a different view. That's such s divergent argument rom the above that I have to say it does appear as if you have a personal beef against Greek Cyprus.
Moon Rabbit seems to ignore the fact that Turkey invaded Cyprus .
GB was one of the guarantors to protect the island . Ironically so was Turkey and Greece , the latter had a military junta supported by the USA at the time .
To moan now that Cyprus an EU country asks for help from other EU countries is bizarre . Greece of course is like a brother to Cyprus and of course they will go above and beyond to help.
Then to lay treason at the door of those wanting to help Cyprus is unhinged ignoring that there are many Brits living in Cyprus .
It’s pretty obvious that MR seems to hate Greek Cypriots . Not sure what the country has done to deserve this hate .
With all this ground invasion talk, let's try to remember that Iran is really quite big.
Compared to other conflict zones (or us), Iran is: - Iraq: 3.8x larger and 1.9x more people - Syria: 8.9x larger and 3.5x more people - Afghanistan: 2.5x larger and 2.1x more people - UK: 6.8x larger and 1.3x more people
My point being we can keep destroying shit from the air easily. But a few thousand Kurds with guns aren't going to take control of Iran.
But they can strip out the regime and allow the citizenry to take control of areas as they push on.
The Kurds may only be thousands. But any centre of resistance to them will be brutally destroyed from the air. They press forward, while the area behind them is cleansed. Repeat continuously to Tehran.
Is that the plan? And if it is, have you looked at Iran on a map? It is a big place.
It being a big place means most Iranian forces will be at the wrong place for any engagement though.
And the Kurds don't need to take Tehran, or all of Iran, to be a nuisance. Even getting a foothold inside Iran, or liberating the Kurdish-majority region of Iran alone would do immense structural damage to the Iranian regime, which had previously looked invulnerable despite how unpopular it is.
Given how unpopular the regime is, given the aerial bombardments, given loss of land to the Kurds (even if its just some of it), given the Supreme Leader has shuffled off this mortal coil, do the rest of the armed forces at some point decide 'enough is enough' and change the flow of the war and oust the Mullahs?
There are many plausible routes from here to regime change, so long as the Americans and Israelis don't pull out prematurely - and I don't think the Israelis desire to pull out.
I hate to point out the bleeding obvious here but even if some military strongman decides to oust the Mullahs he may still want to kill the Kurds to stop them threatening the new regime.
Anyone who thinks you can start a civil war and get the ideal outcome you want must have been asleep for the last 25 years.
I welcome civil war in Iran.
Any change from the status quo ante is an improvement, including outright civil war.
Who says it needs to be ideal? When are there any guarantees of ideal in real life?
That's like saying we shouldn't have replaced Sunak's government with Starmer's because Starmer has not been ideal.
How many tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children were killed when we replaced Sunak's government with Starmer's? How many homes, how much infrastructure destroyed?
If you want a parallel, the Allied invasion and liberation of Europe from D-Day onwards did involve wrecking a lot of France and killing or disrupting the lives of many European civilians who had rebuilt their lives under Nazi occupation but most accept this as a necessary evil, to the extent they still think about it at all.
No Con or LD defences in tomorrow's local by elections. We have Ind defences in Braintree and Sevenoaks, a Ref defence in Durham, a Green defence in Stroud, and a Lab defence in Tamworth.
The local by-elections this week, (excluding the council title): Coggeshall, Murton, Hextable, Thrupp, Spital. An interesting collection of names.
With all this ground invasion talk, let's try to remember that Iran is really quite big.
Compared to other conflict zones (or us), Iran is: - Iraq: 3.8x larger and 1.9x more people - Syria: 8.9x larger and 3.5x more people - Afghanistan: 2.5x larger and 2.1x more people - UK: 6.8x larger and 1.3x more people
My point being we can keep destroying shit from the air easily. But a few thousand Kurds with guns aren't going to take control of Iran.
But they can strip out the regime and allow the citizenry to take control of areas as they push on.
The Kurds may only be thousands. But any centre of resistance to them will be brutally destroyed from the air. They press forward, while the area behind them is cleansed. Repeat continuously to Tehran.
Is that the plan? And if it is, have you looked at Iran on a map? It is a big place.
It being a big place means most Iranian forces will be at the wrong place for any engagement though.
And the Kurds don't need to take Tehran, or all of Iran, to be a nuisance. Even getting a foothold inside Iran, or liberating the Kurdish-majority region of Iran alone would do immense structural damage to the Iranian regime, which had previously looked invulnerable despite how unpopular it is.
Given how unpopular the regime is, given the aerial bombardments, given loss of land to the Kurds (even if its just some of it), given the Supreme Leader has shuffled off this mortal coil, do the rest of the armed forces at some point decide 'enough is enough' and change the flow of the war and oust the Mullahs?
There are many plausible routes from here to regime change, so long as the Americans and Israelis don't pull out prematurely - and I don't think the Israelis desire to pull out.
I hate to point out the bleeding obvious here but even if some military strongman decides to oust the Mullahs he may still want to kill the Kurds to stop them threatening the new regime.
Anyone who thinks you can start a civil war and get the ideal outcome you want must have been asleep for the last 25 years.
I welcome civil war in Iran.
Any change from the status quo ante is an improvement, including outright civil war.
Who says it needs to be ideal? When are there any guarantees of ideal in real life?
That's like saying we shouldn't have replaced Sunak's government with Starmer's because Starmer has not been ideal.
How many tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children were killed when we replaced Sunak's government with Starmer's? How many homes, how much infrastructure destroyed?
If you want a parallel, the Allied invasion and liberation of Europe from D-Day onwards did involve wrecking a lot of France and killing or disrupting the lives of many European civilians who had rebuilt their lives under Nazi occupation but most accept this as a necessary evil, to the extent they still think about it at all.
How many tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children were killed when the protests were met by the regime slaughtering protestors?
You can't claim deaths as a reason not to liberate Iran, when deaths are already occurring.
Cyprus High Commissioner Kyriacos Kouros sounding furious about the lack of British action to defend RAF Akrotiri, telling @skynews: 'Greek forces are present on the island, the French are coming - the least we expect is the British are present'
They didn’t ask us for help. They are playing anti UK politics. Stop helping them get rid of our basis Willy, you traitor.
So you don’t think the Cypriots have a right to be pissed off ?
They’re stuck with bases which end up targets anytime GB is involved in ME action . This screws their tourism industry and puts the local population at risk . Starmer took too long to clarify that the US wouldn’t be using the bases there and the UK should have had its assets there already .
Thank heavens the Greeks and French have come to help .
That’s a clueless post. It’s the other way around.
We are not sending Dragon to help Cyprus, they didn’t ask us for it, they went straight to their friends. Even before Dragon gets there, it’s the most defended bases in the entire war.
Greece and Cyprus exercise with Israel, that invited the drone both Hezbollah and Hamas have been promising them for years.
This is the same game what lost us the Chagos. Cyprus and their friends are making mugs of the lot of you.
Apologies for saying clueless post Nico. None of us are clueless, we just got different bits of knowledge giving different perspectives to add and discuss.
I’ve done tons of reading up on what’s going on with Cyprus this week, and all the sneaky politics involved, and it ties in identically with my reading up on Chagos. It’s a changed world out there, here in UK we need to wake up to it. The technical reality is Cyprus doesn’t need protection from UK warships. Nor does it want it. Dragon is late? It shouldn’t be going there for that reason. it’s not needed in med for that reason.
Greece and Cyprus have developed deep strategic partnerships with Israel, including joint military drills. Perhaps as consequence, Hezbollah and Hamas have for years been threatening Cyprus and Greece, so maybe no surprise drones have come from Hezbollah towards Cyprus, taking opportunity of fog of war to fire them, and not simply down to presence of UK military bases. The US Treasury has sanctioned Turkish-registered companies for helping Hezbollah evade sanctions and move Iranian funds and goods - Turkey normally favour Hamas not Shia Hezbollah, but working together now due to sharing common enemies.
Following the drone strike - according to Cyprus PM and President it is Starmer’s fault dragging Cyprus into this war - Greece reached out to Germany, Italy, France and Greece to help them. Greece and France quickly deployed anti-drone systems to the island, Greece has deployed warships and fighter jets. France frigates and aircraft carrier. ‘furious” Cyprus may seek to negotiate the British Sovereign Base Areas (SBAs) to only be used for humanitarian purposes in future, not as launchpads for any offensive strikes ever again. It’s anti UK politics - PBers and UK press and UK politicians should not assist Cyprus and their friends in this, it’s treason to do so.
Cyprus don’t want UK to have military bases in Cyprus, and nor does any of their friends. They want to move on from UK with other friends like Israel and EU allies. UK outside EU has to stop living in the past and 20th century mindset.
It's quite a leap from establishing that countries like Cyorus, Greece, France and Isrsel.hsve lomg-established co-operation now, under the "EU-Med" + Israel, to suggesting that it's "treason" to help Cyprus.
The other day, MoonRabbit, you also suggested that Greece shouldn't help Cyprus because it was in Turkey's "headspace", which is quite a different view. That's such s divergent argument rom the above that I have to say it does appear as if you have a personal beef against Greek Cyprus.
Moon Rabbit seems to ignore the fact that Turkey invaded Cyprus .
GB was one of the guarantors to protect the island . Ironically so was Turkey and Greece , the latter had a military junta supported by the USA at the time .
To moan now that Cyprus an EU country asks for help from other EU countries is bizarre . Greece of course is like a brother to Cyprus and of course they will go above and beyond to help.
Then to lay treason at the door of those wanting to help Cyprus is unhinged ignoring that there are many Brits living in Cyprus .
It’s pretty obvious that MR seems to hate Greek Cypriots . Not sure what the country has done to deserve this hate .
I would also say thst it's fairly obvious that the drones have been targetted specifically against Akrotiri so far, and the Greek jets today, probably in co-ordination with thr R.A.F., have effectively defended the base.
Cyprus High Commissioner Kyriacos Kouros sounding furious about the lack of British action to defend RAF Akrotiri, telling @skynews: 'Greek forces are present on the island, the French are coming - the least we expect is the British are present'
They didn’t ask us for help. They are playing anti UK politics. Stop helping them get rid of our basis Willy, you traitor.
So you don’t think the Cypriots have a right to be pissed off ?
They’re stuck with bases which end up targets anytime GB is involved in ME action . This screws their tourism industry and puts the local population at risk . Starmer took too long to clarify that the US wouldn’t be using the bases there and the UK should have had its assets there already .
Thank heavens the Greeks and French have come to help .
That’s a clueless post. It’s the other way around.
We are not sending Dragon to help Cyprus, they didn’t ask us for it, they went straight to their friends. Even before Dragon gets there, it’s the most defended bases in the entire war.
Greece and Cyprus exercise with Israel, that invited the drone both Hezbollah and Hamas have been promising them for years.
This is the same game what lost us the Chagos. Cyprus and their friends are making mugs of the lot of you.
Apologies for saying clueless post Nico. None of us are clueless, we just got different bits of knowledge giving different perspectives to add and discuss.
I’ve done tons of reading up on what’s going on with Cyprus this week, and all the sneaky politics involved, and it ties in identically with my reading up on Chagos. It’s a changed world out there, here in UK we need to wake up to it. The technical reality is Cyprus doesn’t need protection from UK warships. Nor does it want it. Dragon is late? It shouldn’t be going there for that reason. it’s not needed in med for that reason.
Greece and Cyprus have developed deep strategic partnerships with Israel, including joint military drills. Perhaps as consequence, Hezbollah and Hamas have for years been threatening Cyprus and Greece, so maybe no surprise drones have come from Hezbollah towards Cyprus, taking opportunity of fog of war to fire them, and not simply down to presence of UK military bases. The US Treasury has sanctioned Turkish-registered companies for helping Hezbollah evade sanctions and move Iranian funds and goods - Turkey normally favour Hamas not Shia Hezbollah, but working together now due to sharing common enemies.
Following the drone strike - according to Cyprus PM and President it is Starmer’s fault dragging Cyprus into this war - Greece reached out to Germany, Italy, France and Greece to help them. Greece and France quickly deployed anti-drone systems to the island, Greece has deployed warships and fighter jets. France frigates and aircraft carrier. ‘furious” Cyprus may seek to negotiate the British Sovereign Base Areas (SBAs) to only be used for humanitarian purposes in future, not as launchpads for any offensive strikes ever again. It’s anti UK politics - PBers and UK press and UK politicians should not assist Cyprus and their friends in this, it’s treason to do so.
Cyprus don’t want UK to have military bases in Cyprus, and nor does any of their friends. They want to move on from UK with other friends like Israel and EU allies. UK outside EU has to stop living in the past and 20th century mindset.
It's quite a leap from establishing that countries like Cyorus, Greece, France and Isrsel.hsve lomg-established co-operation now, under the "EU-Med" + Israel, to suggesting that it's "treason" to help Cyprus.
The other day, MoonRabbit, you also suggested that Greece shouldn't help Cyprus because it was in Turkey's "headspace", which is quite a different view. That's such s divergent argument rom the above that I have to say it does appear as if you have a personal beef against Greek Cyprus.
Moon Rabbit seems to ignore the fact that Turkey invaded Cyprus .
GB was one of the guarantors to protect the island . Ironically so was Turkey and Greece , the latter had a military junta supported by the USA at the time .
To moan now that Cyprus an EU country asks for help from other EU countries is bizarre . Greece of course is like a brother to Cyprus and of course they will go above and beyond to help.
Then to lay treason at the door of those wanting to help Cyprus is unhinged ignoring that there are many Brits living in Cyprus .
It’s pretty obvious that MR seems to hate Greek Cypriots . Not sure what the country has done to deserve this hate .
I would also say thst it's fairly obvious that the drones have been targetted specifically against Akrotiri so far, and the Greek jets today, probably in co-ordination with thr R.A.F., have effectively defended the base.
It has a bunch of American U2 planes on it and no doubt other stuff so why were obliged to protect Americans from their own folly I don't know.
With all this ground invasion talk, let's try to remember that Iran is really quite big.
Compared to other conflict zones (or us), Iran is: - Iraq: 3.8x larger and 1.9x more people - Syria: 8.9x larger and 3.5x more people - Afghanistan: 2.5x larger and 2.1x more people - UK: 6.8x larger and 1.3x more people
My point being we can keep destroying shit from the air easily. But a few thousand Kurds with guns aren't going to take control of Iran.
But they can strip out the regime and allow the citizenry to take control of areas as they push on.
The Kurds may only be thousands. But any centre of resistance to them will be brutally destroyed from the air. They press forward, while the area behind them is cleansed. Repeat continuously to Tehran.
Is that the plan? And if it is, have you looked at Iran on a map? It is a big place.
It being a big place means most Iranian forces will be at the wrong place for any engagement though.
And the Kurds don't need to take Tehran, or all of Iran, to be a nuisance. Even getting a foothold inside Iran, or liberating the Kurdish-majority region of Iran alone would do immense structural damage to the Iranian regime, which had previously looked invulnerable despite how unpopular it is.
Given how unpopular the regime is, given the aerial bombardments, given loss of land to the Kurds (even if its just some of it), given the Supreme Leader has shuffled off this mortal coil, do the rest of the armed forces at some point decide 'enough is enough' and change the flow of the war and oust the Mullahs?
There are many plausible routes from here to regime change, so long as the Americans and Israelis don't pull out prematurely - and I don't think the Israelis desire to pull out.
I hate to point out the bleeding obvious here but even if some military strongman decides to oust the Mullahs he may still want to kill the Kurds to stop them threatening the new regime.
Anyone who thinks you can start a civil war and get the ideal outcome you want must have been asleep for the last 25 years.
I welcome civil war in Iran.
Any change from the status quo ante is an improvement, including outright civil war.
Who says it needs to be ideal? When are there any guarantees of ideal in real life?
That's like saying we shouldn't have replaced Sunak's government with Starmer's because Starmer has not been ideal.
How many tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children were killed when we replaced Sunak's government with Starmer's? How many homes, how much infrastructure destroyed?
If you want a parallel, the Allied invasion and liberation of Europe from D-Day onwards did involve wrecking a lot of France and killing or disrupting the lives of many European civilians who had rebuilt their lives under Nazi occupation but most accept this as a necessary evil, to the extent they still think about it at all.
How many tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children were killed when the protests were met by the regime slaughtering protestors?
You can't claim deaths as a reason not to liberate Iran, when deaths are already occurring.
Yes, I referred to the thousands killed recently in an earlier post today. But whatever is happening in Iran, and we have yet to see if it is regime change, is not comparable to Britain peacefully changing government the day after a general election.
ETA I did also provide the closer parallel of the liberation of Europe at the end of the Second World War. You might recall that some countries ended up less liberated than others, swapping Nazi occupation for communist dictatorships.
Cyprus High Commissioner Kyriacos Kouros sounding furious about the lack of British action to defend RAF Akrotiri, telling @skynews: 'Greek forces are present on the island, the French are coming - the least we expect is the British are present'
They didn’t ask us for help. They are playing anti UK politics. Stop helping them get rid of our basis Willy, you traitor.
So you don’t think the Cypriots have a right to be pissed off ?
They’re stuck with bases which end up targets anytime GB is involved in ME action . This screws their tourism industry and puts the local population at risk . Starmer took too long to clarify that the US wouldn’t be using the bases there and the UK should have had its assets there already .
Thank heavens the Greeks and French have come to help .
That’s a clueless post. It’s the other way around.
We are not sending Dragon to help Cyprus, they didn’t ask us for it, they went straight to their friends. Even before Dragon gets there, it’s the most defended bases in the entire war.
Greece and Cyprus exercise with Israel, that invited the drone both Hezbollah and Hamas have been promising them for years.
This is the same game what lost us the Chagos. Cyprus and their friends are making mugs of the lot of you.
Apologies for saying clueless post Nico. None of us are clueless, we just got different bits of knowledge giving different perspectives to add and discuss.
I’ve done tons of reading up on what’s going on with Cyprus this week, and all the sneaky politics involved, and it ties in identically with my reading up on Chagos. It’s a changed world out there, here in UK we need to wake up to it. The technical reality is Cyprus doesn’t need protection from UK warships. Nor does it want it. Dragon is late? It shouldn’t be going there for that reason. it’s not needed in med for that reason.
Greece and Cyprus have developed deep strategic partnerships with Israel, including joint military drills. Perhaps as consequence, Hezbollah and Hamas have for years been threatening Cyprus and Greece, so maybe no surprise drones have come from Hezbollah towards Cyprus, taking opportunity of fog of war to fire them, and not simply down to presence of UK military bases. The US Treasury has sanctioned Turkish-registered companies for helping Hezbollah evade sanctions and move Iranian funds and goods - Turkey normally favour Hamas not Shia Hezbollah, but working together now due to sharing common enemies.
Following the drone strike - according to Cyprus PM and President it is Starmer’s fault dragging Cyprus into this war - Greece reached out to Germany, Italy, France and Greece to help them. Greece and France quickly deployed anti-drone systems to the island, Greece has deployed warships and fighter jets. France frigates and aircraft carrier. ‘furious” Cyprus may seek to negotiate the British Sovereign Base Areas (SBAs) to only be used for humanitarian purposes in future, not as launchpads for any offensive strikes ever again. It’s anti UK politics - PBers and UK press and UK politicians should not assist Cyprus and their friends in this, it’s treason to do so.
Cyprus don’t want UK to have military bases in Cyprus, and nor does any of their friends. They want to move on from UK with other friends like Israel and EU allies. UK outside EU has to stop living in the past and 20th century mindset.
It's quite a leap from establishing that countries like Cyorus, Greece, France and Isrsel.hsve lomg-established co-operation now, under the "EU-Med" + Israel, to suggesting that it's "treason" to help Cyprus.
The other day, MoonRabbit, you also suggested that Greece shouldn't help Cyprus because it was in Turkey's "headspace", which is quite a different view. That's such s divergent argument rom the above that I have to say it does appear as if you have a personal beef against Greek Cyprus.
Our nineteen active British sovereign areas in Cyprus makes the island our unsinkable aircraft carrier/Cheltenham doughnut permanently stationed in the eastern Mediterranean, used also by our special ally US. Fantastic. What’s not to like?
I’m not suggesting Cyprus merely doesn’t like this, I’m saying they positively hate it. They want out. They don’t need UK military protection. They want to go a different way with different partners, Greece, Israel, EU. And we need to wake up to this fact, this is the game they have been playing all week, this is their end goal - identical to India’s game against UK possessions from colonial history, like Chagos.
When you quote the game playing Cypriot government against UK government, you are playing their anti British game, not OUR game. That’s the point I’m making.
My point is quite the opposite from you saying I have an anti Greek people bias. I don’t have beef with Cyprus or Greece, I understand their feelings right now about. If, one example, UK using Cyprus bases to help Saudi carpet bomb Yemenis, and Cypriots don’t want that, I can see their point. UK colonial era is over, but UK still have these colonial bits of Cyprus when the islanders don’t want us to. It’s a fantastic unsinkable aircraft carrier for UK to have - but I’m asking should we have it, if against the wishes of Cyprus and Greece and the new direction they want to go in?
My actual beef here is two fold. Firstly, are PBers woke enough about the change going on in the world today, exactly why the last sovereign vestiges from UK’s Colonial past are being mopped up? Because secondly, if you are joining the Cypriot and Indian governments games against UK government, you must either be an ultra lefty lawyer who totally agrees with UK losing its last vestiges of colonial holdings around the world - or just plain stupid, because that is what you are aiding and abetting.
With all this ground invasion talk, let's try to remember that Iran is really quite big.
Compared to other conflict zones (or us), Iran is: - Iraq: 3.8x larger and 1.9x more people - Syria: 8.9x larger and 3.5x more people - Afghanistan: 2.5x larger and 2.1x more people - UK: 6.8x larger and 1.3x more people
My point being we can keep destroying shit from the air easily. But a few thousand Kurds with guns aren't going to take control of Iran.
But they can strip out the regime and allow the citizenry to take control of areas as they push on.
The Kurds may only be thousands. But any centre of resistance to them will be brutally destroyed from the air. They press forward, while the area behind them is cleansed. Repeat continuously to Tehran.
Is that the plan? And if it is, have you looked at Iran on a map? It is a big place.
It being a big place means most Iranian forces will be at the wrong place for any engagement though.
And the Kurds don't need to take Tehran, or all of Iran, to be a nuisance. Even getting a foothold inside Iran, or liberating the Kurdish-majority region of Iran alone would do immense structural damage to the Iranian regime, which had previously looked invulnerable despite how unpopular it is.
Given how unpopular the regime is, given the aerial bombardments, given loss of land to the Kurds (even if its just some of it), given the Supreme Leader has shuffled off this mortal coil, do the rest of the armed forces at some point decide 'enough is enough' and change the flow of the war and oust the Mullahs?
There are many plausible routes from here to regime change, so long as the Americans and Israelis don't pull out prematurely - and I don't think the Israelis desire to pull out.
I hate to point out the bleeding obvious here but even if some military strongman decides to oust the Mullahs he may still want to kill the Kurds to stop them threatening the new regime.
Anyone who thinks you can start a civil war and get the ideal outcome you want must have been asleep for the last 25 years.
I welcome civil war in Iran.
Any change from the status quo ante is an improvement, including outright civil war.
Who says it needs to be ideal? When are there any guarantees of ideal in real life?
That's like saying we shouldn't have replaced Sunak's government with Starmer's because Starmer has not been ideal.
How many tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children were killed when we replaced Sunak's government with Starmer's? How many homes, how much infrastructure destroyed?
If you want a parallel, the Allied invasion and liberation of Europe from D-Day onwards did involve wrecking a lot of France and killing or disrupting the lives of many European civilians who had rebuilt their lives under Nazi occupation but most accept this as a necessary evil, to the extent they still think about it at all.
How many tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children were killed when the protests were met by the regime slaughtering protestors?
You can't claim deaths as a reason not to liberate Iran, when deaths are already occurring.
Yes, I referred to the thousands killed recently in an earlier post today. But whatever is happening in Iran, and we have yet to see if it is regime change, is not comparable to Britain peacefully changing government the day after a general election.
ETA I did also provide the closer parallel of the liberation of Europe at the end of the Second World War. You might recall that some countries ended up less liberated than others, swapping Nazi occupation for communist dictatorships.
Yes, but it is quite comparable though since tens of thousands dying is baked into the system there, any the public seem to want liberty, or at least enough of them do, so helping them get it is morally right.
Could it be rough? Yes. Could people die? Definitely. Could it not end up great? Absolutely.
With all this ground invasion talk, let's try to remember that Iran is really quite big.
Compared to other conflict zones (or us), Iran is: - Iraq: 3.8x larger and 1.9x more people - Syria: 8.9x larger and 3.5x more people - Afghanistan: 2.5x larger and 2.1x more people - UK: 6.8x larger and 1.3x more people
My point being we can keep destroying shit from the air easily. But a few thousand Kurds with guns aren't going to take control of Iran.
But they can strip out the regime and allow the citizenry to take control of areas as they push on.
The Kurds may only be thousands. But any centre of resistance to them will be brutally destroyed from the air. They press forward, while the area behind them is cleansed. Repeat continuously to Tehran.
Is that the plan? And if it is, have you looked at Iran on a map? It is a big place.
It being a big place means most Iranian forces will be at the wrong place for any engagement though.
And the Kurds don't need to take Tehran, or all of Iran, to be a nuisance. Even getting a foothold inside Iran, or liberating the Kurdish-majority region of Iran alone would do immense structural damage to the Iranian regime, which had previously looked invulnerable despite how unpopular it is.
Given how unpopular the regime is, given the aerial bombardments, given loss of land to the Kurds (even if its just some of it), given the Supreme Leader has shuffled off this mortal coil, do the rest of the armed forces at some point decide 'enough is enough' and change the flow of the war and oust the Mullahs?
There are many plausible routes from here to regime change, so long as the Americans and Israelis don't pull out prematurely - and I don't think the Israelis desire to pull out.
I hate to point out the bleeding obvious here but even if some military strongman decides to oust the Mullahs he may still want to kill the Kurds to stop them threatening the new regime.
Anyone who thinks you can start a civil war and get the ideal outcome you want must have been asleep for the last 25 years.
I welcome civil war in Iran.
Any change from the status quo ante is an improvement, including outright civil war.
Who says it needs to be ideal? When are there any guarantees of ideal in real life?
That's like saying we shouldn't have replaced Sunak's government with Starmer's because Starmer has not been ideal.
How many tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children were killed when we replaced Sunak's government with Starmer's? How many homes, how much infrastructure destroyed?
If you want a parallel, the Allied invasion and liberation of Europe from D-Day onwards did involve wrecking a lot of France and killing or disrupting the lives of many European civilians who had rebuilt their lives under Nazi occupation but most accept this as a necessary evil, to the extent they still think about it at all.
How many tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children were killed when the protests were met by the regime slaughtering protestors?
You can't claim deaths as a reason not to liberate Iran, when deaths are already occurring.
Yes, I referred to the thousands killed recently in an earlier post today. But whatever is happening in Iran, and we have yet to see if it is regime change, is not comparable to Britain peacefully changing government the day after a general election.
ETA I did also provide the closer parallel of the liberation of Europe at the end of the Second World War. You might recall that some countries ended up less liberated than others, swapping Nazi occupation for communist dictatorships.
Yes, but it is quite comparable though since tens of thousands dying is baked into the system there, any the public seem to want liberty, or at least enough of them do, so helping them get it is morally right.
Could it be rough? Yes. Could people die? Definitely. Could it not end up great? Absolutely.
Is it still good to help those we can help? Yes.
Your war aims might be laudable. Death and destruction might be a price worth paying if a free, liberal democracy rises from the ashes.
But is that what America and Israel are doing? President Trump vacillates on the question of regime change. The main aim seems to be to remove any military capability from Iran. While good in itself, this does not necessarily mean liberating the country or its people.
With all this ground invasion talk, let's try to remember that Iran is really quite big.
Compared to other conflict zones (or us), Iran is: - Iraq: 3.8x larger and 1.9x more people - Syria: 8.9x larger and 3.5x more people - Afghanistan: 2.5x larger and 2.1x more people - UK: 6.8x larger and 1.3x more people
My point being we can keep destroying shit from the air easily. But a few thousand Kurds with guns aren't going to take control of Iran.
But they can strip out the regime and allow the citizenry to take control of areas as they push on.
The Kurds may only be thousands. But any centre of resistance to them will be brutally destroyed from the air. They press forward, while the area behind them is cleansed. Repeat continuously to Tehran.
Is that the plan? And if it is, have you looked at Iran on a map? It is a big place.
It being a big place means most Iranian forces will be at the wrong place for any engagement though.
And the Kurds don't need to take Tehran, or all of Iran, to be a nuisance. Even getting a foothold inside Iran, or liberating the Kurdish-majority region of Iran alone would do immense structural damage to the Iranian regime, which had previously looked invulnerable despite how unpopular it is.
Given how unpopular the regime is, given the aerial bombardments, given loss of land to the Kurds (even if its just some of it), given the Supreme Leader has shuffled off this mortal coil, do the rest of the armed forces at some point decide 'enough is enough' and change the flow of the war and oust the Mullahs?
There are many plausible routes from here to regime change, so long as the Americans and Israelis don't pull out prematurely - and I don't think the Israelis desire to pull out.
I hate to point out the bleeding obvious here but even if some military strongman decides to oust the Mullahs he may still want to kill the Kurds to stop them threatening the new regime.
Anyone who thinks you can start a civil war and get the ideal outcome you want must have been asleep for the last 25 years.
I welcome civil war in Iran.
Any change from the status quo ante is an improvement, including outright civil war.
Who says it needs to be ideal? When are there any guarantees of ideal in real life?
That's like saying we shouldn't have replaced Sunak's government with Starmer's because Starmer has not been ideal.
How many tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children were killed when we replaced Sunak's government with Starmer's? How many homes, how much infrastructure destroyed?
If you want a parallel, the Allied invasion and liberation of Europe from D-Day onwards did involve wrecking a lot of France and killing or disrupting the lives of many European civilians who had rebuilt their lives under Nazi occupation but most accept this as a necessary evil, to the extent they still think about it at all.
How many tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children were killed when the protests were met by the regime slaughtering protestors?
You can't claim deaths as a reason not to liberate Iran, when deaths are already occurring.
Yes, I referred to the thousands killed recently in an earlier post today. But whatever is happening in Iran, and we have yet to see if it is regime change, is not comparable to Britain peacefully changing government the day after a general election.
ETA I did also provide the closer parallel of the liberation of Europe at the end of the Second World War. You might recall that some countries ended up less liberated than others, swapping Nazi occupation for communist dictatorships.
Yes, but it is quite comparable though since tens of thousands dying is baked into the system there, any the public seem to want liberty, or at least enough of them do, so helping them get it is morally right.
Could it be rough? Yes. Could people die? Definitely. Could it not end up great? Absolutely.
Is it still good to help those we can help? Yes.
Your war aims might be laudable. Death and destruction might be a price worth paying if a free, liberal democracy rises from the ashes.
But is that what America and Israel are doing? President Trump vacillates on the question of regime change. The main aim seems to be to remove any military capability from Iran. While good in itself, this does not necessarily mean liberating the country or its people.
For Iran to be freed a lot has to go right, I don't think anyone can say categorically whether it will or will not happen.
It remains much more likely though with pressure applied to the regime via this conflict.
Andrew Neil put it to William Hague that the Cameron government in which he was Foreign Secretary cut defence spending by 20 per cent. Hague claimed they did build two aircraft carriers but of course they were inherited from Labour.
Reports of gunfire and explosions over the Black Sea coastal city of Sukhumi in the Russian-backed Georgian breakaway nation of Abkhazia, amidst a possible drone attack, with air defense and electronic warfare activity confirmed by the Abkhazian Ministry of Defense.
Cyprus High Commissioner Kyriacos Kouros sounding furious about the lack of British action to defend RAF Akrotiri, telling @skynews: 'Greek forces are present on the island, the French are coming - the least we expect is the British are present'
They didn’t ask us for help. They are playing anti UK politics. Stop helping them get rid of our basis Willy, you traitor.
So you don’t think the Cypriots have a right to be pissed off ?
They’re stuck with bases which end up targets anytime GB is involved in ME action . This screws their tourism industry and puts the local population at risk . Starmer took too long to clarify that the US wouldn’t be using the bases there and the UK should have had its assets there already .
Thank heavens the Greeks and French have come to help .
That’s a clueless post. It’s the other way around.
We are not sending Dragon to help Cyprus, they didn’t ask us for it, they went straight to their friends. Even before Dragon gets there, it’s the most defended bases in the entire war.
Greece and Cyprus exercise with Israel, that invited the drone both Hezbollah and Hamas have been promising them for years.
This is the same game what lost us the Chagos. Cyprus and their friends are making mugs of the lot of you.
Apologies for saying clueless post Nico. None of us are clueless, we just got different bits of knowledge giving different perspectives to add and discuss.
I’ve done tons of reading up on what’s going on with Cyprus this week, and all the sneaky politics involved, and it ties in identically with my reading up on Chagos. It’s a changed world out there, here in UK we need to wake up to it. The technical reality is Cyprus doesn’t need protection from UK warships. Nor does it want it. Dragon is late? It shouldn’t be going there for that reason. it’s not needed in med for that reason.
Greece and Cyprus have developed deep strategic partnerships with Israel, including joint military drills. Perhaps as consequence, Hezbollah and Hamas have for years been threatening Cyprus and Greece, so maybe no surprise drones have come from Hezbollah towards Cyprus, taking opportunity of fog of war to fire them, and not simply down to presence of UK military bases. The US Treasury has sanctioned Turkish-registered companies for helping Hezbollah evade sanctions and move Iranian funds and goods - Turkey normally favour Hamas not Shia Hezbollah, but working together now due to sharing common enemies.
Following the drone strike - according to Cyprus PM and President it is Starmer’s fault dragging Cyprus into this war - Greece reached out to Germany, Italy, France and Greece to help them. Greece and France quickly deployed anti-drone systems to the island, Greece has deployed warships and fighter jets. France frigates and aircraft carrier. ‘furious” Cyprus may seek to negotiate the British Sovereign Base Areas (SBAs) to only be used for humanitarian purposes in future, not as launchpads for any offensive strikes ever again. It’s anti UK politics - PBers and UK press and UK politicians should not assist Cyprus and their friends in this, it’s treason to do so.
Cyprus don’t want UK to have military bases in Cyprus, and nor does any of their friends. They want to move on from UK with other friends like Israel and EU allies. UK outside EU has to stop living in the past and 20th century mindset.
It's quite a leap from establishing that countries like Cyorus, Greece, France and Isrsel.hsve lomg-established co-operation now, under the "EU-Med" + Israel, to suggesting that it's "treason" to help Cyprus.
The other day, MoonRabbit, you also suggested that Greece shouldn't help Cyprus because it was in Turkey's "headspace", which is quite a different view. That's such s divergent argument rom the above that I have to say it does appear as if you have a personal beef against Greek Cyprus.
Moon Rabbit seems to ignore the fact that Turkey invaded Cyprus .
GB was one of the guarantors to protect the island . Ironically so was Turkey and Greece , the latter had a military junta supported by the USA at the time .
To moan now that Cyprus an EU country asks for help from other EU countries is bizarre . Greece of course is like a brother to Cyprus and of course they will go above and beyond to help.
Then to lay treason at the door of those wanting to help Cyprus is unhinged ignoring that there are many Brits living in Cyprus .
It’s pretty obvious that MR seems to hate Greek Cypriots . Not sure what the country has done to deserve this hate .
I have, in previous post, answered your nonsense about I hate Greeks, the reality is the opposite, I actually like and agree with their point of view for antagonism towards to Turkey and the UK.
“Moon Rabbit seems to ignore the fact that Turkey invaded Cyprus”
My post the other day shows I am not ignoring this because I explained the history of what happened.
Nineteenth century maps in French and German school classrooms, teaching different border between each country, we know what that created. Nationalistic narratives in education systems reinforce grievances and mutual mistrust about protection of minorities in other countries, this can fuel things and lead to crimes and atrocities that just reinforce the larger narrative of hate. The current Ukraine war has a bit of “rights and protections of minorities” in setting it up, lots of conflicts and invasions triggered in just the same way the world over. Irish Republic said if United Nations don’t go in as peace keepers, they would go in themselves in 48hrs to protect the Catholic minority in Northern Ireland - the UK was in there to keep peace just 24 hrs later.
Your raising of the Greek Junta gives us a perfect example. MI6 gave the Junta intelligence they used to assassinate someone. Long after the Junta was gone, the descendants of the assassinated person saw murdering a British General as fair game. We need to think of all the sensitivities of everything we are doing right now. At a time of war we mustn’t ignore all the sensitivities, because if you are on the side of the bad guy doing bad things, if you help them with anything, intelligence, use of bases, munitions, you own bad things, you become just as culpable. And greviances last through generations.
UK and US may actually have been backers of the hideous Junta running Greece - CIA and MI6 did a lot of disgusting meddling in the that region in the past, the capture and murder of Moro in Rome is owned by the CIA, but they actually agreed with Turkey’s concerns about Greek assassinations and takeover of Cyprus, and Turkish fears for the Turkish minority, the US tried to talk the Junta round.
Cyprus High Commissioner Kyriacos Kouros sounding furious about the lack of British action to defend RAF Akrotiri, telling @skynews: 'Greek forces are present on the island, the French are coming - the least we expect is the British are present'
They didn’t ask us for help. They are playing anti UK politics. Stop helping them get rid of our basis Willy, you traitor.
So you don’t think the Cypriots have a right to be pissed off ?
They’re stuck with bases which end up targets anytime GB is involved in ME action . This screws their tourism industry and puts the local population at risk . Starmer took too long to clarify that the US wouldn’t be using the bases there and the UK should have had its assets there already .
Thank heavens the Greeks and French have come to help .
That’s a clueless post. It’s the other way around.
We are not sending Dragon to help Cyprus, they didn’t ask us for it, they went straight to their friends. Even before Dragon gets there, it’s the most defended bases in the entire war.
Greece and Cyprus exercise with Israel, that invited the drone both Hezbollah and Hamas have been promising them for years.
This is the same game what lost us the Chagos. Cyprus and their friends are making mugs of the lot of you.
Apologies for saying clueless post Nico. None of us are clueless, we just got different bits of knowledge giving different perspectives to add and discuss.
I’ve done tons of reading up on what’s going on with Cyprus this week, and all the sneaky politics involved, and it ties in identically with my reading up on Chagos. It’s a changed world out there, here in UK we need to wake up to it. The technical reality is Cyprus doesn’t need protection from UK warships. Nor does it want it. Dragon is late? It shouldn’t be going there for that reason. it’s not needed in med for that reason.
Greece and Cyprus have developed deep strategic partnerships with Israel, including joint military drills. Perhaps as consequence, Hezbollah and Hamas have for years been threatening Cyprus and Greece, so maybe no surprise drones have come from Hezbollah towards Cyprus, taking opportunity of fog of war to fire them, and not simply down to presence of UK military bases. The US Treasury has sanctioned Turkish-registered companies for helping Hezbollah evade sanctions and move Iranian funds and goods - Turkey normally favour Hamas not Shia Hezbollah, but working together now due to sharing common enemies.
Following the drone strike - according to Cyprus PM and President it is Starmer’s fault dragging Cyprus into this war - Greece reached out to Germany, Italy, France and Greece to help them. Greece and France quickly deployed anti-drone systems to the island, Greece has deployed warships and fighter jets. France frigates and aircraft carrier. ‘furious” Cyprus may seek to negotiate the British Sovereign Base Areas (SBAs) to only be used for humanitarian purposes in future, not as launchpads for any offensive strikes ever again. It’s anti UK politics - PBers and UK press and UK politicians should not assist Cyprus and their friends in this, it’s treason to do so.
Cyprus don’t want UK to have military bases in Cyprus, and nor does any of their friends. They want to move on from UK with other friends like Israel and EU allies. UK outside EU has to stop living in the past and 20th century mindset.
It's quite a leap from establishing that countries like Cyorus, Greece, France and Isrsel.hsve lomg-established co-operation now, under the "EU-Med" + Israel, to suggesting that it's "treason" to help Cyprus.
The other day, MoonRabbit, you also suggested that Greece shouldn't help Cyprus because it was in Turkey's "headspace", which is quite a different view. That's such s divergent argument rom the above that I have to say it does appear as if you have a personal beef against Greek Cyprus.
Our nineteen active British sovereign areas in Cyprus makes the island our unsinkable aircraft carrier/Cheltenham doughnut permanently stationed in the eastern Mediterranean, used also by our special ally US. Fantastic. What’s not to like?
I’m not suggesting Cyprus merely doesn’t like this, I’m saying they positively hate it. They want out. They don’t need UK military protection. They want to go a different way with different partners, Greece, Israel, EU. And we need to wake up to this fact, this is the game they have been playing all week, this is their end goal - identical to India’s game against UK possessions from colonial history, like Chagos.
When you quote the game playing Cypriot government against UK government, you are playing their anti British game, not OUR game. That’s the point I’m making.
My point is quite the opposite from you saying I have an anti Greek people bias. I don’t have beef with Cyprus or Greece, I understand their feelings right now about. If, one example, UK using Cyprus bases to help Saudi carpet bomb Yemenis, and Cypriots don’t want that, I can see their point. UK colonial era is over, but UK still have these colonial bits of Cyprus when the islanders don’t want us to. It’s a fantastic unsinkable aircraft carrier for UK to have - but I’m asking should we have it, if against the wishes of Cyprus and Greece and the new direction they want to go in?
My actual beef here is two fold. Firstly, are PBers woke enough about the change going on in the world today, exactly why the last sovereign vestiges from UK’s Colonial past are being mopped up? Because secondly, if you are joining the Cypriot and Indian governments games against UK government, you must either be an ultra lefty lawyer who totally agrees with UK losing its last vestiges of colonial holdings around the world - or just plain stupid, because that is what you are aiding and abetting.
Think before you post.
Well, to begin with, I've spent fair lengths of time in Cyprus over the years, and there's far from.a consensus over the bases. Many see them as a deterrent against the Turks, which doesn't really have an analogue in Chagos. They certainly wouldn't want the even more controversial idea of Isrseli bases, and the French are primarily interested in a naval.presence and energy and resource opportunities at sea. I'm.also unclear whether you are positing an anti-colonial or pro-colonisal argument; but if the Cypriots had not seen a clear own interest in the bases remaining over the last 50 years, they would have made life far, far more diffucult for the bases' status, diplomatically and infrastructurally.
I also haven't particularly quoted the statements from the Cyoriot government, which will obviously from time to time play to popular concerns, but focused more on the specific relationship between Greece and Cyprus, which I'm not fully clear why you have an issue with..The fact remains that the relationship between Greece and Cyprus has effectively been the reason why those Greek jets have protected the British base from those drones today, and for all we know. had the Greeks stayed away as you suggested, the RAF might have struggled to knock them.out alone yesterday morning.
Cyprus High Commissioner Kyriacos Kouros sounding furious about the lack of British action to defend RAF Akrotiri, telling @skynews: 'Greek forces are present on the island, the French are coming - the least we expect is the British are present'
They didn’t ask us for help. They are playing anti UK politics. Stop helping them get rid of our basis Willy, you traitor.
So you don’t think the Cypriots have a right to be pissed off ?
They’re stuck with bases which end up targets anytime GB is involved in ME action . This screws their tourism industry and puts the local population at risk . Starmer took too long to clarify that the US wouldn’t be using the bases there and the UK should have had its assets there already .
Thank heavens the Greeks and French have come to help .
That’s a clueless post. It’s the other way around.
We are not sending Dragon to help Cyprus, they didn’t ask us for it, they went straight to their friends. Even before Dragon gets there, it’s the most defended bases in the entire war.
Greece and Cyprus exercise with Israel, that invited the drone both Hezbollah and Hamas have been promising them for years.
This is the same game what lost us the Chagos. Cyprus and their friends are making mugs of the lot of you.
Apologies for saying clueless post Nico. None of us are clueless, we just got different bits of knowledge giving different perspectives to add and discuss.
I’ve done tons of reading up on what’s going on with Cyprus this week, and all the sneaky politics involved, and it ties in identically with my reading up on Chagos. It’s a changed world out there, here in UK we need to wake up to it. The technical reality is Cyprus doesn’t need protection from UK warships. Nor does it want it. Dragon is late? It shouldn’t be going there for that reason. it’s not needed in med for that reason.
Greece and Cyprus have developed deep strategic partnerships with Israel, including joint military drills. Perhaps as consequence, Hezbollah and Hamas have for years been threatening Cyprus and Greece, so maybe no surprise drones have come from Hezbollah towards Cyprus, taking opportunity of fog of war to fire them, and not simply down to presence of UK military bases. The US Treasury has sanctioned Turkish-registered companies for helping Hezbollah evade sanctions and move Iranian funds and goods - Turkey normally favour Hamas not Shia Hezbollah, but working together now due to sharing common enemies.
Following the drone strike - according to Cyprus PM and President it is Starmer’s fault dragging Cyprus into this war - Greece reached out to Germany, Italy, France and Greece to help them. Greece and France quickly deployed anti-drone systems to the island, Greece has deployed warships and fighter jets. France frigates and aircraft carrier. ‘furious” Cyprus may seek to negotiate the British Sovereign Base Areas (SBAs) to only be used for humanitarian purposes in future, not as launchpads for any offensive strikes ever again. It’s anti UK politics - PBers and UK press and UK politicians should not assist Cyprus and their friends in this, it’s treason to do so.
Cyprus don’t want UK to have military bases in Cyprus, and nor does any of their friends. They want to move on from UK with other friends like Israel and EU allies. UK outside EU has to stop living in the past and 20th century mindset.
It's quite a leap from establishing that countries like Cyorus, Greece, France and Isrsel.hsve lomg-established co-operation now, under the "EU-Med" + Israel, to suggesting that it's "treason" to help Cyprus.
The other day, MoonRabbit, you also suggested that Greece shouldn't help Cyprus because it was in Turkey's "headspace", which is quite a different view. That's such s divergent argument rom the above that I have to say it does appear as if you have a personal beef against Greek Cyprus.
Our nineteen active British sovereign areas in Cyprus makes the island our unsinkable aircraft carrier/Cheltenham doughnut permanently stationed in the eastern Mediterranean, used also by our special ally US. Fantastic. What’s not to like?
I’m not suggesting Cyprus merely doesn’t like this, I’m saying they positively hate it. They want out. They don’t need UK military protection. They want to go a different way with different partners, Greece, Israel, EU. And we need to wake up to this fact, this is the game they have been playing all week, this is their end goal - identical to India’s game against UK possessions from colonial history, like Chagos.
When you quote the game playing Cypriot government against UK government, you are playing their anti British game, not OUR game. That’s the point I’m making.
My point is quite the opposite from you saying I have an anti Greek people bias. I don’t have beef with Cyprus or Greece, I understand their feelings right now about. If, one example, UK using Cyprus bases to help Saudi carpet bomb Yemenis, and Cypriots don’t want that, I can see their point. UK colonial era is over, but UK still have these colonial bits of Cyprus when the islanders don’t want us to. It’s a fantastic unsinkable aircraft carrier for UK to have - but I’m asking should we have it, if against the wishes of Cyprus and Greece and the new direction they want to go in?
My actual beef here is two fold. Firstly, are PBers woke enough about the change going on in the world today, exactly why the last sovereign vestiges from UK’s Colonial past are being mopped up? Because secondly, if you are joining the Cypriot and Indian governments games against UK government, you must either be an ultra lefty lawyer who totally agrees with UK losing its last vestiges of colonial holdings around the world - or just plain stupid, because that is what you are aiding and abetting.
Think before you post.
The bases are sovereign territory and so they won’t be going anywhere . As for UK protection they did bugger all during the Turkish invasion. On one hand you seem to understand why the bases might not be welcome but then start going on about the loss of colonial holdings . Chagos isn’t relevant , GB pays nothing to Cyprus for those bases, there won’t be a Chagos scenario.
Not sure what game you think Cyprus has been playing , they clearly don’t want to be attacked and don’t want tourists cancelling holidays there . Brits are popular there and are always made welcome by the locals .
The frustration by the Cyprus government is they think the UK should have been better prepared incase war broke out , Akrotiri isn’t just full of UK personnel , Cypriots work and live there .
Cyprus High Commissioner Kyriacos Kouros sounding furious about the lack of British action to defend RAF Akrotiri, telling @skynews: 'Greek forces are present on the island, the French are coming - the least we expect is the British are present'
They didn’t ask us for help. They are playing anti UK politics. Stop helping them get rid of our basis Willy, you traitor.
So you don’t think the Cypriots have a right to be pissed off ?
They’re stuck with bases which end up targets anytime GB is involved in ME action . This screws their tourism industry and puts the local population at risk . Starmer took too long to clarify that the US wouldn’t be using the bases there and the UK should have had its assets there already .
Thank heavens the Greeks and French have come to help .
That’s a clueless post. It’s the other way around.
We are not sending Dragon to help Cyprus, they didn’t ask us for it, they went straight to their friends. Even before Dragon gets there, it’s the most defended bases in the entire war.
Greece and Cyprus exercise with Israel, that invited the drone both Hezbollah and Hamas have been promising them for years.
This is the same game what lost us the Chagos. Cyprus and their friends are making mugs of the lot of you.
Apologies for saying clueless post Nico. None of us are clueless, we just got different bits of knowledge giving different perspectives to add and discuss.
I’ve done tons of reading up on what’s going on with Cyprus this week, and all the sneaky politics involved, and it ties in identically with my reading up on Chagos. It’s a changed world out there, here in UK we need to wake up to it. The technical reality is Cyprus doesn’t need protection from UK warships. Nor does it want it. Dragon is late? It shouldn’t be going there for that reason. it’s not needed in med for that reason.
Greece and Cyprus have developed deep strategic partnerships with Israel, including joint military drills. Perhaps as consequence, Hezbollah and Hamas have for years been threatening Cyprus and Greece, so maybe no surprise drones have come from Hezbollah towards Cyprus, taking opportunity of fog of war to fire them, and not simply down to presence of UK military bases. The US Treasury has sanctioned Turkish-registered companies for helping Hezbollah evade sanctions and move Iranian funds and goods - Turkey normally favour Hamas not Shia Hezbollah, but working together now due to sharing common enemies.
Following the drone strike - according to Cyprus PM and President it is Starmer’s fault dragging Cyprus into this war - Greece reached out to Germany, Italy, France and Greece to help them. Greece and France quickly deployed anti-drone systems to the island, Greece has deployed warships and fighter jets. France frigates and aircraft carrier. ‘furious” Cyprus may seek to negotiate the British Sovereign Base Areas (SBAs) to only be used for humanitarian purposes in future, not as launchpads for any offensive strikes ever again. It’s anti UK politics - PBers and UK press and UK politicians should not assist Cyprus and their friends in this, it’s treason to do so.
Cyprus don’t want UK to have military bases in Cyprus, and nor does any of their friends. They want to move on from UK with other friends like Israel and EU allies. UK outside EU has to stop living in the past and 20th century mindset.
It's quite a leap from establishing that countries like Cyorus, Greece, France and Isrsel.hsve lomg-established co-operation now, under the "EU-Med" + Israel, to suggesting that it's "treason" to help Cyprus.
The other day, MoonRabbit, you also suggested that Greece shouldn't help Cyprus because it was in Turkey's "headspace", which is quite a different view. That's such s divergent argument rom the above that I have to say it does appear as if you have a personal beef against Greek Cyprus.
Moon Rabbit seems to ignore the fact that Turkey invaded Cyprus .
GB was one of the guarantors to protect the island . Ironically so was Turkey and Greece , the latter had a military junta supported by the USA at the time .
To moan now that Cyprus an EU country asks for help from other EU countries is bizarre . Greece of course is like a brother to Cyprus and of course they will go above and beyond to help.
Then to lay treason at the door of those wanting to help Cyprus is unhinged ignoring that there are many Brits living in Cyprus .
It’s pretty obvious that MR seems to hate Greek Cypriots . Not sure what the country has done to deserve this hate .
I have, in previous post, answered your nonsense about I hate Greeks, the reality is the opposite, I actually like and agree with their point of view for antagonism towards to Turkey and the UK.
“Moon Rabbit seems to ignore the fact that Turkey invaded Cyprus”
My post the other day shows I am not ignoring this because I explained the history of what happened.
Nineteenth century maps in French and German school classrooms, teaching different border between each country, we know what that created. Nationalistic narratives in education systems reinforce grievances and mutual mistrust about protection of minorities in other countries, this can fuel things and lead to crimes and atrocities that just reinforce the larger narrative of hate. The current Ukraine war has a bit of “rights and protections of minorities” in setting it up, lots of conflicts and invasions triggered in just the same way the world over. Irish Republic said if United Nations don’t go in as peace keepers, they would go in themselves in 48hrs to protect the Catholic minority in Northern Ireland - the UK was in there to keep peace just 24 hrs later.
Your raising of the Greek Junta gives us a perfect example. MI6 gave the Junta intelligence they used to assassinate someone. Long after the Junta was gone, the descendants of the assassinated person saw murdering a British General as fair game. We need to think of all the sensitivities of everything we are doing right now. At a time of war we mustn’t ignore all the sensitivities, because if you are on the side of the bad guy doing bad things, if you help them with anything, intelligence, use of bases, munitions, you own bad things, you become just as culpable. And greviances last through generations.
UK and US may actually have been backers of the hideous Junta running Greece - CIA and MI6 did a lot of disgusting meddling in the that region in the past, the capture and murder of Moro in Rome is owned by the CIA, but they actually agreed with Turkey’s concerns about Greek assassinations and takeover of Cyprus, and Turkish fears for the Turkish minority, the US tried to talk the Junta round.
Well, yes, but ofcourse the current Turkish government, which is also highly influential in Northern Cyprus, is far closer to the authoritarian regime that the UK and U.S. promoted in Greece in the 1960s, than Greek or Greek-Cypriot governments since 1974.
Andrew Neil put it to William Hague that the Cameron government in which he was Foreign Secretary cut defence spending by 20 per cent. Hague claimed they did build two aircraft carriers but of course they were inherited from Labour.
This is the problem, the QE class hollowed out every other part of the Navy for a massive vanity project of very limited utility.
The Admirals/Warships argument is a load of fucking wank advanced by people who understand neither. There has to be a lot of flag ranks because there has to be a reasonable chance of a mid career officer advancing to flag rank. If there were three Admirals in the entire RN then many Commanders/Captains/Commodores would leave because there would be little prospect of getting your flag. Those ranks are the ones who will actually lead the fighting in a conflict.
Andrew Neil put it to William Hague that the Cameron government in which he was Foreign Secretary cut defence spending by 20 per cent. Hague claimed they did build two aircraft carriers but of course they were inherited from Labour.
This is the problem, the QE class hollowed out every other part of the Navy for a massive vanity project of very limited utility.
The Admirals/Warships argument is a load of fucking wank advanced by people who understand neither. There has to be a lot of flag ranks because there has to be a reasonable chance of a mid career officer advancing to flag rank. If there were three Admirals in the entire RN then many Commanders/Captains/Commodores would leave because there would be little prospect of getting your flag. Those ranks are the ones who will actually lead the fighting in a conflict.
Indeed: also people aren't deployed all the time. And there are going to be plenty of senior naval roles which don't involve being on a ship.
Cyprus High Commissioner Kyriacos Kouros sounding furious about the lack of British action to defend RAF Akrotiri, telling @skynews: 'Greek forces are present on the island, the French are coming - the least we expect is the British are present'
They didn’t ask us for help. They are playing anti UK politics. Stop helping them get rid of our basis Willy, you traitor.
So you don’t think the Cypriots have a right to be pissed off ?
They’re stuck with bases which end up targets anytime GB is involved in ME action . This screws their tourism industry and puts the local population at risk . Starmer took too long to clarify that the US wouldn’t be using the bases there and the UK should have had its assets there already .
Thank heavens the Greeks and French have come to help .
That’s a clueless post. It’s the other way around.
We are not sending Dragon to help Cyprus, they didn’t ask us for it, they went straight to their friends. Even before Dragon gets there, it’s the most defended bases in the entire war.
Greece and Cyprus exercise with Israel, that invited the drone both Hezbollah and Hamas have been promising them for years.
This is the same game what lost us the Chagos. Cyprus and their friends are making mugs of the lot of you.
Apologies for saying clueless post Nico. None of us are clueless, we just got different bits of knowledge giving different perspectives to add and discuss.
I’ve done tons of reading up on what’s going on with Cyprus this week, and all the sneaky politics involved, and it ties in identically with my reading up on Chagos. It’s a changed world out there, here in UK we need to wake up to it. The technical reality is Cyprus doesn’t need protection from UK warships. Nor does it want it. Dragon is late? It shouldn’t be going there for that reason. it’s not needed in med for that reason.
Greece and Cyprus have developed deep strategic partnerships with Israel, including joint military drills. Perhaps as consequence, Hezbollah and Hamas have for years been threatening Cyprus and Greece, so maybe no surprise drones have come from Hezbollah towards Cyprus, taking opportunity of fog of war to fire them, and not simply down to presence of UK military bases. The US Treasury has sanctioned Turkish-registered companies for helping Hezbollah evade sanctions and move Iranian funds and goods - Turkey normally favour Hamas not Shia Hezbollah, but working together now due to sharing common enemies.
Following the drone strike - according to Cyprus PM and President it is Starmer’s fault dragging Cyprus into this war - Greece reached out to Germany, Italy, France and Greece to help them. Greece and France quickly deployed anti-drone systems to the island, Greece has deployed warships and fighter jets. France frigates and aircraft carrier. ‘furious” Cyprus may seek to negotiate the British Sovereign Base Areas (SBAs) to only be used for humanitarian purposes in future, not as launchpads for any offensive strikes ever again. It’s anti UK politics - PBers and UK press and UK politicians should not assist Cyprus and their friends in this, it’s treason to do so.
Cyprus don’t want UK to have military bases in Cyprus, and nor does any of their friends. They want to move on from UK with other friends like Israel and EU allies. UK outside EU has to stop living in the past and 20th century mindset.
It's quite a leap from establishing that countries like Cyorus, Greece, France and Isrsel.hsve lomg-established co-operation now, under the "EU-Med" + Israel, to suggesting that it's "treason" to help Cyprus.
The other day, MoonRabbit, you also suggested that Greece shouldn't help Cyprus because it was in Turkey's "headspace", which is quite a different view. That's such s divergent argument rom the above that I have to say it does appear as if you have a personal beef against Greek Cyprus.
Our nineteen active British sovereign areas in Cyprus makes the island our unsinkable aircraft carrier/Cheltenham doughnut permanently stationed in the eastern Mediterranean, used also by our special ally US. Fantastic. What’s not to like?
I’m not suggesting Cyprus merely doesn’t like this, I’m saying they positively hate it. They want out. They don’t need UK military protection. They want to go a different way with different partners, Greece, Israel, EU. And we need to wake up to this fact, this is the game they have been playing all week, this is their end goal - identical to India’s game against UK possessions from colonial history, like Chagos.
When you quote the game playing Cypriot government against UK government, you are playing their anti British game, not OUR game. That’s the point I’m making.
My point is quite the opposite from you saying I have an anti Greek people bias. I don’t have beef with Cyprus or Greece, I understand their feelings right now about. If, one example, UK using Cyprus bases to help Saudi carpet bomb Yemenis, and Cypriots don’t want that, I can see their point. UK colonial era is over, but UK still have these colonial bits of Cyprus when the islanders don’t want us to. It’s a fantastic unsinkable aircraft carrier for UK to have - but I’m asking should we have it, if against the wishes of Cyprus and Greece and the new direction they want to go in?
My actual beef here is two fold. Firstly, are PBers woke enough about the change going on in the world today, exactly why the last sovereign vestiges from UK’s Colonial past are being mopped up? Because secondly, if you are joining the Cypriot and Indian governments games against UK government, you must either be an ultra lefty lawyer who totally agrees with UK losing its last vestiges of colonial holdings around the world - or just plain stupid, because that is what you are aiding and abetting.
Think before you post.
Well, to begin with, I've spent fair lengths of time in Cyprus over the years, and there's far from.a consensus over the bases. Many see them as a deterrent against the Turks, which doesn't really have an analogue in Chagos. They certainly wouldn't want the even more controversial idea of Isrseli bases, and the French are primarily interested in a naval.presence and energy and resource opportunities at sea. I'm.also unclear whether you are positing an anti-colonial or pro-colonisal argument; but if the Cypriots had not seen a clear own interest in the bases remaining over the last 50 years, they would have made life far, far more diffucult for the bases' status, diplomatically and infrastructurally.
I also haven't particularly quoted the statements from the Cyoriot government, which will obviously from time to time play to popular concerns, but focused more on the specific relationship between Greece and Cyprus, which I'm not fully clear why you have an issue with..The fact remains that the relationship between Greece and Cyprus has effectively been the reason why those Greek jets have protected the British base from those drones today, and for all we know. had the Greeks stayed away as you suggested, the RAF might have struggled to knock them.out alone yesterday morning.
“ had the Greeks stayed away as you suggested, the RAF might have struggled to knock them.out alone yesterday morning.”
I’m not convinced. Were the Greeks needed? I’ll repeat what is already here in the “mini thread”
“ Greece and Cyprus have developed deep strategic partnerships with Israel, including joint military drills. as consequence, Hezbollah and Hamas have for years been threatening Cyprus and Greece, so maybe no surprise drones have come from Hezbollah towards Cyprus, taking opportunity of fog of war to fire them, and not simply down to presence of UK military bases. The US Treasury has sanctioned Turkish-registered companies for helping Hezbollah evade sanctions and move Iranian funds and goods - Turkey normally favour Hamas not Shia Hezbollah, but working together now due to sharing common enemies.”
I guess in my mind the few drones are not really the big issue here. And Dragon isn’t going there to protect Cyprus, what is likely well protected already when it gets there. It shouldn’t need a UK boat either, nor the Greek one. No reason in my mind why allies of UK can’t protect both Cyprus and our 19 installations on our unsinkable aircraft carrier, whilst we deploy warship in other ways.
But.
I’ll quote exactly the same thing again. “ Greece and Cyprus have developed deep strategic partnerships with Israel, including joint military drills. as consequence, Hezbollah and Hamas have for years been threatening Cyprus and Greece,”
What’s bad for Greece and Cyprus, and their important industry of tourism, are the terrorist bombs and the terrorist atrocities. For that reason, for by whom they are already hated, could it have been better if it wasn’t Greek warship?
My point from the start has been the Greeks wanted to be there, very similar to UK politicians, PBers, UK newspapers want UK bombing alongside the US and Israel, to make the world a better place, especially when you have been attacked yourself. I know the rest of you havn’t a clue what I am trying to say, and you see no issue at all about Greek Warship. To me, just imagining the primary school books preaching Greek hate, Greek Warship is sensitive involvement in this. Just a hunch or feel I have.
I teach Sunday School, that’s basically about being awake and sensitive to the world as Christ encouraged us to be. That’s not at all about being blind or dismissive to hate as detractors might present it.
Both the Israelis and the Americans have talked today about securing air superiority in the next couple of days. All evidence is they have had it since Day 2 and the arrival of B-52 bombers hitting multiple targets in a single mission suggests they have it. What appears to be happening is that they have air superiority in large swathes of the country but there are areas to the East of Iran where they havent really been paying heavy attention to so this mayt account for their vew that air supetioty is not yet achieved.
Now the news about the Kurds is out I should point out its not clear what they are really at yet and caution is advised. I'm not sure how enthusiastic they are or how big the numbers are. My best guess, if they are going to tool up, is this. They are going to hold territory where they ethinically dominate and air strikes have already thinned out government forces, claim they own that land then get into a fight if the Iranian government decides to reverse that control. They might expand out, they might not, but by threatening regime control over a lump of land, it puts the government in a bind. Look weak by not getting into it or get into it and get your arse shot up as you transit and assemble.
Where are the Iranian military? Their navy, airforce and air defence have been stuffed but the land army hasnt necessarily taken the hardest hits as yet, the focus has been in the Revolutionary Guard. Is that deliberate or simply that the US & israel have bigger priorities?
Be aware the Iranian regime is not wholly united right now both technically and in outlook about what top do next. Comms between centre and local commanders are still fraught.
I suspect overnight occurances will actually bring something more significant in news that anything today. There are strong suggestions of US ground elements at work but doing what is unclear.
One final thing, talk around sinking an Iranian naval vessel out in the Indian Ocean and the legal or other merits of it. Catch yourselves on, its a war, its a military vessel, thats the top and bottom of it. Are US embassies military installations? Patently no, but no crying over those being droned.
The war powers vote in the US Senate has just failed in a 47-53 vote - with lawmakers taking their votes almost entirely down party lines. In the end, Senator Rand Paul joined the Democrats to vote yes on limiting Trump's military powers in Iran, with Senator John Fetterman joining the Republicans to vote no."
Reports of gunfire and explosions over the Black Sea coastal city of Sukhumi in the Russian-backed Georgian breakaway nation of Abkhazia, amidst a possible drone attack, with air defense and electronic warfare activity confirmed by the Abkhazian Ministry of Defense.
The current cost of this war, to the US, is running at a rate of something like $1,300,000.
Spent every minute.
American GDP is growing by $1,300,000 a minute? That's good news, surely? Then there will be orders back home for replacement munitions, and contracts for American oil companies to take over Iran's oil industry (and for Trump-linked construction companies) and a bill to Kuwait for shooting down three aeroplanes. Greatest president ever.
No Con or LD defences in tomorrow's local by elections. We have Ind defences in Braintree and Sevenoaks, a Ref defence in Durham, a Green defence in Stroud, and a Lab defence in Tamworth.
The local by-elections this week, (excluding the council title): Coggeshall, Murton, Hextable, Thrupp, Spital. An interesting collection of names.
I seem to recall Thrupp was in the Meaning of Liff.
Indeed it was:
Thrupp (THRUP) vb. To hold a ruler on one end on a desk and make the other end go bbddbbddbbrrbrrrrddrr
Summarising the Israeli government's position, Citrinowicz said: "If we can have a coup, great. If we can have people on the streets, great. If we can have a civil war, great. Israel couldn't care less about the future ... [or] the stability of Iran."
Stability is stagnation, it is not a good thing, especially when the stability is a dictatorship.
Instability enables progress.
Chaos over order? Well, it's a view and certainly valid to argue chaos means change of whatever nature.
Two World Wars last century and millions dead certainly piled on the change but people tire of unending chaos and want order of whatever form.
How often do we see revolutions which topple autarchies or dictatorships themselves lead to dictatorship and repression in the name of ending chaos and restoring order?
It may be simple for you but for many people the certainty of order (with all the restrictions) seems more attractive than the uncertainty of anarchy (what price "freedom" if there is no work, no money, no food and no law?).
'Give me liberty or give me death'.
Yes some may choose to turn to authoritarians to prefer order over instability. I never have and never will.
You might miss the Rule of Law though.
Law should always be pragmatic and flexible. That was always the English way, to have a flexible and amendable law, changeable by Parliament, not a hard and fast codified one.
The rigid dogmatic institutionalisation of "The Law" (TM) over and above flexibility and politics is a rather modern and not a positive invention.
Good news on that front - a little bird tells me the government is going to trial cyclists/horse riders being allowed to pass through red lights, as long as they give way to pedestrians (like a zebra crossing).
Exactly the kind of flexibility we need - red lights for pedal cycles was always a dreadful constriction on #freedom #magnacarta
Thought most cyclists already did that anyway...
I think that's the best argument for it. If you think cyclists are always going through red lights, the lack of fatalities as a result would suggest it's an unnecessary restriction.
I can't see how you could argue against 20mph limits (which do gave a significant impact on pedestrians) while opposing this.
If a cyclist goes through a red light and is hit and killed by a driver who did nothing wrong and went through a green light, then a couple of questions.
1: Should that driver be incarcerated? I have seen some here (can't remember if you're one) demand mandatory incarceration of all drivers involved in fatalities regardless of cause.
2: Should that driver be offered counselling for the trauma and who should fund it?
Our system has more flexibility than that.
1 - On driver incarceration, i don't think anyone argues hat
2 - I think a more appropriate route for trauma counselling would be from the insurance company of the "at fault" party as is currently obtainable via the settlement process or civil action. That is already in place.
Of course there is also the NHS. All parties in any situation usually get NHS services (are there exceptions - can costs be recovered from insurance companies?) so I see no particular difference.
Even in cases where there is presumed civil liability for the more vulnerable party further up the hierarchy in civil legal action around collisions - as is the case in approximately 35 of 40 European countries * - it is a rebuttable presumption, so just a starting point and a shifting of the burden of proof.
* UK, Ireland, Romania, Cyprus, and Malta are the exceptions.
1. Some here have argued it. If not you, then fair enough, would you oppose that?
2. If the at-fault party is a deceased cyclist, then what exactly is to be done about it? Hard to take a civil action against the deceased, and a bit morbid to try.
We've finally found a reason for you to support 20mph limits. After you've mown down the 90 year old who didn't look properly before stepping out, you do tend to get some grief from the family when you sue the estate. 60kg at 30mph is going to take out the radiator at least.
Given roads are safer than they've ever been, we should be putting the speed limit up to 40 in most places, not cutting it.
40 today is as safe as 30 was in the past, given improvements in safety technologies.
Hand your driving licence in at your nearest police station. You clearly have no idea about thinking distance to add to your braking distance.
I hate the default 20 here in Wales, but my driving is far more considerate than it used to be. I wouldn't dream of breaching 20 outside a school, and I drive at 30 in a 30 zone where I would have been closer to 40 back in the day.
There is a correlation between increased speed and dead children. I hope we never return to the sort of liberal speed policy that Reform are proposing.
Thinking distances were a thing in the past too.
They're less needed now in the era of things like adaptive cruise control which can slow down vehicles automatically if the vehicle in front slows down or if there is an obstruction in the road ahead.
As a matter of fact, deaths are falling, not rising. We could easily absorb an increase in the speed limit and still have roads safer than they were in the past.
Did you watch the Hannah Fry programme about self driving cars on BBC2 yesterday. They are not yet infallible.
What with Gaza, Iran and speed limits you seem to have a cavalier attitude to other people's lives.
Are you for real or just taking the piss?
For real.
Since when does anything in life need infallibility?
Life involves risks.
Mass x velocity= Force
If you go faster in your big heavy car you hit the child harder. Slow down!
I think the important factor is kinetic energy. k =1/2 mv^2
So increased velocity is more dangerous, as of course is stopping distance, and higher bumpers resulting in more severe injuries.
With fewer fatalities overall as a matter of fact.
How many fatalities do we think were caused by vehicles travelling at 30mph?
Summarising the Israeli government's position, Citrinowicz said: "If we can have a coup, great. If we can have people on the streets, great. If we can have a civil war, great. Israel couldn't care less about the future ... [or] the stability of Iran."
Stability is stagnation, it is not a good thing, especially when the stability is a dictatorship.
Instability enables progress.
Chaos over order? Well, it's a view and certainly valid to argue chaos means change of whatever nature.
Two World Wars last century and millions dead certainly piled on the change but people tire of unending chaos and want order of whatever form.
How often do we see revolutions which topple autarchies or dictatorships themselves lead to dictatorship and repression in the name of ending chaos and restoring order?
It may be simple for you but for many people the certainty of order (with all the restrictions) seems more attractive than the uncertainty of anarchy (what price "freedom" if there is no work, no money, no food and no law?).
'Give me liberty or give me death'.
Yes some may choose to turn to authoritarians to prefer order over instability. I never have and never will.
You might miss the Rule of Law though.
Law should always be pragmatic and flexible. That was always the English way, to have a flexible and amendable law, changeable by Parliament, not a hard and fast codified one.
The rigid dogmatic institutionalisation of "The Law" (TM) over and above flexibility and politics is a rather modern and not a positive invention.
Good news on that front - a little bird tells me the government is going to trial cyclists/horse riders being allowed to pass through red lights, as long as they give way to pedestrians (like a zebra crossing).
Exactly the kind of flexibility we need - red lights for pedal cycles was always a dreadful constriction on #freedom #magnacarta
Thought most cyclists already did that anyway...
I think that's the best argument for it. If you think cyclists are always going through red lights, the lack of fatalities as a result would suggest it's an unnecessary restriction.
I can't see how you could argue against 20mph limits (which do gave a significant impact on pedestrians) while opposing this.
If a cyclist goes through a red light and is hit and killed by a driver who did nothing wrong and went through a green light, then a couple of questions.
1: Should that driver be incarcerated? I have seen some here (can't remember if you're one) demand mandatory incarceration of all drivers involved in fatalities regardless of cause.
2: Should that driver be offered counselling for the trauma and who should fund it?
Our system has more flexibility than that.
1 - On driver incarceration, i don't think anyone argues hat
2 - I think a more appropriate route for trauma counselling would be from the insurance company of the "at fault" party as is currently obtainable via the settlement process or civil action. That is already in place.
Of course there is also the NHS. All parties in any situation usually get NHS services (are there exceptions - can costs be recovered from insurance companies?) so I see no particular difference.
Even in cases where there is presumed civil liability for the more vulnerable party further up the hierarchy in civil legal action around collisions - as is the case in approximately 35 of 40 European countries * - it is a rebuttable presumption, so just a starting point and a shifting of the burden of proof.
* UK, Ireland, Romania, Cyprus, and Malta are the exceptions.
1. Some here have argued it. If not you, then fair enough, would you oppose that?
2. If the at-fault party is a deceased cyclist, then what exactly is to be done about it? Hard to take a civil action against the deceased, and a bit morbid to try.
We've finally found a reason for you to support 20mph limits. After you've mown down the 90 year old who didn't look properly before stepping out, you do tend to get some grief from the family when you sue the estate. 60kg at 30mph is going to take out the radiator at least.
Given roads are safer than they've ever been, we should be putting the speed limit up to 40 in most places, not cutting it.
40 today is as safe as 30 was in the past, given improvements in safety technologies.
Hand your driving licence in at your nearest police station. You clearly have no idea about thinking distance to add to your braking distance.
I hate the default 20 here in Wales, but my driving is far more considerate than it used to be. I wouldn't dream of breaching 20 outside a school, and I drive at 30 in a 30 zone where I would have been closer to 40 back in the day.
There is a correlation between increased speed and dead children. I hope we never return to the sort of liberal speed policy that Reform are proposing.
Thinking distances were a thing in the past too.
They're less needed now in the era of things like adaptive cruise control which can slow down vehicles automatically if the vehicle in front slows down or if there is an obstruction in the road ahead.
As a matter of fact, deaths are falling, not rising. We could easily absorb an increase in the speed limit and still have roads safer than they were in the past.
Did you watch the Hannah Fry programme about self driving cars on BBC2 yesterday. They are not yet infallible.
What with Gaza, Iran and speed limits you seem to have a cavalier attitude to other people's lives.
Are you for real or just taking the piss?
For real.
Since when does anything in life need infallibility?
Life involves risks.
Mass x velocity= Force
If you go faster in your big heavy car you hit the child harder. Slow down!
I think the important factor is kinetic energy. k =1/2 mv^2
So increased velocity is more dangerous, as of course is stopping distance, and higher bumpers resulting in more severe injuries.
With fewer fatalities overall as a matter of fact.
How many fatalities do we think were caused by vehicles travelling at 30mph?
Good morning, everyone.
I was once almost comically injured/killed by an incredibly slow car. I was sliding, very slowly, on ice towards the road. The car was sliding on ice towards me. It looked fairly likely I might end up under the wheel. Fortunately, it remained a comedy and not a tragedy.
@UK_MTO reports an oil tanker that was on anchor offshore Kuwait (and near Iraq too) has been hit by an explosion; oil is spilling and the tanker is tanking on water.
"... There is oil in the water coming from a cargo tank..."
BREAKING: Sky News understands the first chartered flight due to take off from Muscat in Oman at 7pm GMT last night is still on the ground. The flight was due to bring home Brits and their families from the Middle East but passengers have been sent to hotels
BREAKING: Sky News understands the first chartered flight due to take off from Muscat in Oman at 7pm GMT last night is still on the ground. The flight was due to bring home Brits and their families from the Middle East but passengers have been sent to hotels
What kind of sick **** is Starmer? Haven't these people been through enough without Starmer chartering BA to fly them home?
That frigate was at the international fleet review in India BTW, along with US forces. This amounts to sinking a ship under a flag of truce so it's even worse than it seems
That's the reason the Sri lankan coast guard was all right there to rescue people from the water
BREAKING: Sky News understands the first chartered flight due to take off from Muscat in Oman at 7pm GMT last night is still on the ground. The flight was due to bring home Brits and their families from the Middle East but passengers have been sent to hotels
What kind of sick **** is Starmer? Haven't these people been through enough without Starmer chartering BA to fly them home?
Andrew Neil put it to William Hague that the Cameron government in which he was Foreign Secretary cut defence spending by 20 per cent. Hague claimed they did build two aircraft carriers but of course they were inherited from Labour.
This is the problem, the QE class hollowed out every other part of the Navy for a massive vanity project of very limited utility.
The Admirals/Warships argument is a load of fucking wank advanced by people who understand neither. There has to be a lot of flag ranks because there has to be a reasonable chance of a mid career officer advancing to flag rank. If there were three Admirals in the entire RN then many Commanders/Captains/Commodores would leave because there would be little prospect of getting your flag. Those ranks are the ones who will actually lead the fighting in a conflict.
Pay them more by length of service. What's the point of being an admiral if you command a third of a ship? It's meant to be a job, not an epaulette.
My thoughts are with the families of the Iranian sailors who drowned with the sinking of their ship off Galle. A disgusting and cowardly action revealing the Americans' bloodlust and utter absence of humanity. My grandfather's ship was torpedoed in the Indian Ocean when he served with the RN during WW2. Like the Iranian survivors he spent some time in Sri Lanka, before he joined his new ship at Trinco. He had happy memories of the island and its hospitable people, as he liked to recount to my wife, whose parents are from there.
It's normal for most to be in refit or maintenance. That's the Daily Mail being it's usual, deceptive, exagerration driven, shit-stirring self. They are fluffing themselves angry over a fairly normal situation given the size of our navy, and a favourable one given how much maintenance has been skimped on over many years. They are also being misleading about how quickly some can return to duty, afaics.
2 operational is what would be normal (or slightly above normal) for a class of 6. 2 others would be in short term maintenance to be available for a crisis, and 2 in deeper maintenance. There would normally also be training or exercise, which the DM has not noted. There's a trend to having several in even-longer term refit, because of fundamental problems - and we have 3 not 2 in long term refit.
3 from 7 is good, and perhaps driving the fleet too hard which will cause a rebound later. If only we had not sold 3 to Chile.
More than that and the fleet is being run in an overstressed situation for "normal". That is why I remarked the other day that we need more like 28-30 than 13-15 escort class vessels.
It is also why we and the French both have 4 SSNs ion order to be able to guarantee one to be at sea at all times.
If it's any consolation, we went into WW2 with elements of the fleet not upgraded as planned, because that naughty Mr Hitler had a brainstorm and started early. Admiral Raeder was not happy.
There's always a lot of refitting to be done, particularly after the jolly of HMS POW to the South China Sea, but that is a pretty damning list. Not much of a deterrent to anyone. No subs (apart from one Trident?) at sea. Great big holes in the other services too.
But that is what years of austerity do. Our national infrastructure is pretty dismal for schools, hospitals, councils etc too.
I agree with @Dura_Ace on the white elephants of the carriers. We do not have the ships or sailors to run a defence of home waters. The idea of a blue water carrier group is a fiction.
My thoughts are with the families of the Iranian sailors who drowned with the sinking of their ship off Galle. A disgusting and cowardly action revealing the Americans' bloodlust and utter absence of humanity. My grandfather's ship was torpedoed in the Indian Ocean when he served with the RN during WW2. Like the Iranian survivors he spent some time in Sri Lanka, before he joined his new ship at Trinco. He had happy memories of the island and its hospitable people, as he liked to recount to my wife, whose parents are from there.
I can understand your distress but sadly this is the consquences of war
There are going to be many more upsetting stories for all sides
Gosh, if they've lost the Guardian, it's definitely time to chuck it in.
She reminded me of Kinnock's woeful Parliamentary performance during the Westland saga.
It was a moment where she could have taken the higher ground as LOTO. Rather than criticism for criticism 's sake she could have mixed and matched support for the Government line with questions of operational wisdom. However her line was, and this is contrary to public opinion, fully behind the action taken by Israel and the US, demanding the UK should escalate the crisis. It was a bizarre outburst. Has she learned nothing from Iraq.
If the US has indeed already won*, as the manchild Hegseth claims, she can take her win. But if this collapses into an Iraq facsimile she is going to look very silly, as indeed she did yesterday.
* What does a win look like? Fire and fury across North Africa and the Middle East, the rapture, and Jesus returning to take his place amongst us?
BREAKING: Sky News understands the first chartered flight due to take off from Muscat in Oman at 7pm GMT last night is still on the ground. The flight was due to bring home Brits and their families from the Middle East but passengers have been sent to hotels
Pilot was out of hiurs due to messing around, as per social media 😂😂😂😂😂
Comments
as son of a toolmaker"when I was in the military" every other answer.You're not exactly an unbiased source yourself though are you?
But, the fact is, everything has changed and been turned on it's head, now. Petty squabbles about who "won" PMQ's this week, seems kinda pointless.
If we are at the start of WW3 we may need to bring back Boris (and yes, I'm serious!)
Katie Lam was angered by Sir Keir today. She has had a bit of a glow up. I was surprised to see Leon say she wasn't all that attractive. I think she is one of the most attractive female MPs
I am curious how many of those military forces want to fight and die for the Islamic regime, against heavy aerial bombardment and a passionate ground force that desires to be there?
And how many are conscripts who would melt away given the chance?
And once a dictatorship starts to lose its grip on the military, it is very close to the end.
Kemi used to do the "as an engineer"...
The UK and USA should be backing the Kurds to victory and not abandoning them again, agreed?
https://x.com/delcyrodriguezv/status/2029303103980245356
Delcy Rodriguez, who is the President of Venezuela, is doing a great job, and working with U.S. Representatives very well. The Oil is beginning to flow, and the professionalism and dedication between both Countries is a very nice thing to see. President DONALD J. TRUMP
I’ve done tons of reading up on what’s going on with Cyprus this week, and all the sneaky politics involved, and it ties in identically with my reading up on Chagos. It’s a changed world out there, here in UK we need to wake up to it. The technical reality is Cyprus doesn’t need protection from UK warships. Nor does it want it. Dragon is late? It shouldn’t be going there for that reason. it’s not needed in med for that reason.
Greece and Cyprus have developed deep strategic partnerships with Israel, including joint military drills. Perhaps as consequence, Hezbollah and Hamas have for years been threatening Cyprus and Greece, so maybe no surprise drones have come from Hezbollah towards Cyprus, taking opportunity of fog of war to fire them, and not simply down to presence of UK military bases. The US Treasury has sanctioned Turkish-registered companies for helping Hezbollah evade sanctions and move Iranian funds and goods - Turkey normally favour Hamas not Shia Hezbollah, but working together now due to sharing common enemies.
Following the drone strike - according to Cyprus PM and President it is Starmer’s fault dragging Cyprus into this war - Greece reached out to Germany, Italy, France and Greece to help them. Greece and France quickly deployed anti-drone systems to the island, Greece has deployed warships and fighter jets. France frigates and aircraft carrier. ‘furious” Cyprus may seek to negotiate the British Sovereign Base Areas (SBAs) to only be used for humanitarian purposes in future, not as launchpads for any offensive strikes ever again. It’s anti UK politics - PBers and UK press and UK politicians should not assist Cyprus and their friends in this, it’s treason to do so.
https://www.politico.eu/article/cyprus-slams-uk-after-akrotiri-drone-strike-forced-locals-to-flee/
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/cyprus-hits-uk-drone-attack-105204130.html?guccounter=1
Cyprus don’t want UK to have military bases in Cyprus, and nor does any of their friends. They want to move on from UK with other friends like Israel and EU allies. UK outside EU has to stop living in the past and 20th century mindset.
https://x.com/sanchezcastejon/status/2029304026722886017
In the world of the #NU10K passing judgement, in public, like that, is Poor Form. It suggests someone who isn’t a Safe Pair of Hands, Not A Team Player.
Letting the guilty do a runner via early retirement is better all round, for such people.
‘No one’s ever accused me of lacking courage.’
Fark off you pompous twat.
1 - They run a $5bn goods surplus with Spain. I can't find services figures.
2 - Spanish trade policy is run by the EU more than Spain.
3 - Their base near Gibraltar is a key location for US carrier strike groups. It's not a good one to lose access for the USN.
Right on brother!
What about the Americans? Should the Americans abandon the Kurds again, or follow through with them this time?
https://youtu.be/un1mdRPZln0
Compared to other conflict zones (or us), Iran is:
- Iraq: 3.8x larger and 1.9x more people
- Syria: 8.9x larger and 3.5x more people
- Afghanistan: 2.5x larger and 2.1x more people
- UK: 6.8x larger and 1.3x more people
My point being we can keep destroying shit from the air easily. But a few thousand Kurds with guns aren't going to take control of Iran.
Loyalist forces numbers ~50,000 while rebels numbered a few thousand.
The loyalists should have had overwhelming numerical advantage, except two things happened. The aerial bombardment from NATO and tens of thousands of loyalists switched sides.
Iran being bigger and more numerous is both a blessing and a curse for the regime. Yes it has forces, but most of those forces will be in the wrong place for any engagement. And when an engagement happens, if one does, then three very different scenarios can play out for the troops.
1: do their troops fight to the death?
2: or do they switch sides?
3: or do they abandon their posts and run?
If the latter happens, as happened recently in Syria, then that can rapidly snowball.
The Kurds may only be thousands. But any centre of resistance to them will be brutally destroyed from the air. They press forward, while the area behind them is cleansed. Repeat continuously to Tehran.
Are Iranian conscripts going to want to engage the Kurds backed by American and Israeli aerial bombardment? Or do they save their own lives and run as the Syrians did?
@sappo7.bsky.social
That frigate was at the international fleet review in India BTW, along with US forces. This amounts to sinking a ship under a flag of truce so it's even worse than it seems
That's the reason the Sri lankan coast guard was all right there to rescue people from the water
https://bsky.app/profile/sappo7.bsky.social/post/3mgawsotv4c2v
Pilots who will bomb schools or hospitals or mosques - wherever you might think to hide.
A spearhead that could destroy everything ahead of it. Word will spread. Social media will show the futility of engagement. The lethality of engagement.
Melting away will be the only outcome compatible with life.
And the Kurds don't need to take Tehran, or all of Iran, to be a nuisance. Even getting a foothold inside Iran, or liberating the Kurdish-majority region of Iran alone would do immense structural damage to the Iranian regime, which had previously looked invulnerable despite how unpopular it is.
Given how unpopular the regime is, given the aerial bombardments, given loss of land to the Kurds (even if its just some of it), given the Supreme Leader has shuffled off this mortal coil, do the rest of the armed forces at some point decide 'enough is enough' and change the flow of the war and oust the Mullahs?
There are many plausible routes from here to regime change, so long as the Americans and Israelis don't pull out prematurely - and I don't think the Israelis desire to pull out.
Anyone who thinks you can start a civil war and get the ideal outcome you want must have been asleep for the last 25 years.
The other day, MoonRabbit, you also suggested that Greece shouldn't help Cyprus because it was in Turkey's "headspace", which is quite a different view. That's such s divergent argument rom the above that I have to say it does appear as if you have a personal beef against Greek Cyprus.
"But forgive me if I don't take suggestions from the honorable member who said people legally and settled here should go home to ensure that the UK is culturally coherent.
"That is a grotesque way to talk about our friends and neighbours, and I rather suspect that her next question will come from her sitting up there." He then gestures to the Reform benches.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/pmqs-live-keir-starmer-faces-36813527
If the choice is between a new disaster or the old one, I say lets roll the die.
Any change from the status quo ante is an improvement, including outright civil war.
Who says it needs to be ideal? When are there any guarantees of ideal in real life?
That's like saying we shouldn't have replaced Sunak's government with Starmer's because Starmer has not been ideal.
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2026-03-04/debates/13322AC4-D224-4407-B737-2FEB75AD5866/Engagements
ETA the defection watch part referred to Starmer suggesting Lam would soon be "up there" with Reform.
GB was one of the guarantors to protect the island . Ironically so was Turkey and Greece , the latter had a military junta supported by the USA at the time .
To moan now that Cyprus an EU country asks for help from other EU countries is bizarre . Greece of course is like a brother to Cyprus and of course they will go above and beyond to help.
Then to lay treason at the door of those wanting to help Cyprus is unhinged ignoring that there are many Brits living in Cyprus .
It’s pretty obvious that MR seems to hate Greek Cypriots . Not sure what the country has done to deserve this hate .
If you want a parallel, the Allied invasion and liberation of Europe from D-Day onwards did involve wrecking a lot of France and killing or disrupting the lives of many European civilians who had rebuilt their lives under Nazi occupation but most accept this as a necessary evil, to the extent they still think about it at all.
You can't claim deaths as a reason not to liberate Iran, when deaths are already occurring.
2 QE-class aircraft carriers – 0 operational
6 type 45 destroyers – 2 operational
7 type 23 frigates – 3 operational
5 Astute-class submarines – 0 operational
See the graphic for more details:-
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15613019/Nelson-spinning-grave-French-protect-UK-Cyprus-Royal-Navy.html
For other ships not counted by the Mail:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_Royal_Navy_ships
https://londonist.com/london/news/duck-tours-return-to-london
ETA I did also provide the closer parallel of the liberation of Europe at the end of the Second World War. You might recall that some countries ended up less liberated than others, swapping Nazi occupation for communist dictatorships.
I’m not suggesting Cyprus merely doesn’t like this, I’m saying they positively hate it. They want out. They don’t need UK military protection. They want to go a different way with different partners, Greece, Israel, EU. And we need to wake up to this fact, this is the game they have been playing all week, this is their end goal - identical to India’s game against UK possessions from colonial history, like Chagos.
When you quote the game playing Cypriot government against UK government, you are playing their anti British game, not OUR game. That’s the point I’m making.
My point is quite the opposite from you saying I have an anti Greek people bias. I don’t have beef with Cyprus or Greece, I understand their feelings right now about. If, one example, UK using Cyprus bases to help Saudi carpet bomb Yemenis, and Cypriots don’t want that, I can see their point. UK colonial era is over, but UK still have these colonial bits of Cyprus when the islanders don’t want us to. It’s a fantastic unsinkable aircraft carrier for UK to have - but I’m asking should we have it, if against the wishes of Cyprus and Greece and the new direction they want to go in?
My actual beef here is two fold. Firstly, are PBers woke enough about the change going on in the world today, exactly why the last sovereign vestiges from UK’s Colonial past are being mopped up? Because secondly, if you are joining the Cypriot and Indian governments games against UK government, you must either be an ultra lefty lawyer who totally agrees with UK losing its last vestiges of colonial holdings around the world - or just plain stupid, because that is what you are aiding and abetting.
Think before you post.
Could it be rough? Yes.
Could people die? Definitely.
Could it not end up great? Absolutely.
Is it still good to help those we can help? Yes.
The Navy With More Admirals Than Warships
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po9duwvipB0
But is that what America and Israel are doing? President Trump vacillates on the question of regime change. The main aim seems to be to remove any military capability from Iran. While good in itself, this does not necessarily mean liberating the country or its people.
https://www.youtube.com/@WarshipsAndWarriors
These are pertinent
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1WCx7Tqw8M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7hXH6I2ZlU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfuguJRW9Cs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpXBM4JrNbo
It remains much more likely though with pressure applied to the regime via this conflict.
https://x.com/sentdefender/status/2029329185622073492
Reports of gunfire and explosions over the Black Sea coastal city of Sukhumi in the Russian-backed Georgian breakaway nation of Abkhazia, amidst a possible drone attack, with air defense and electronic warfare activity confirmed by the Abkhazian Ministry of Defense.
“Moon Rabbit seems to ignore the fact that Turkey invaded Cyprus”
My post the other day shows I am not ignoring this because I explained the history of what happened.
Nineteenth century maps in French and German school classrooms, teaching different border between each country, we know what that created. Nationalistic narratives in education systems reinforce grievances and mutual mistrust about protection of minorities in other countries, this can fuel things and lead to crimes and atrocities that just reinforce the larger narrative of hate. The current Ukraine war has a bit of “rights and protections of minorities” in setting it up, lots of conflicts and invasions triggered in just the same way the world over. Irish Republic said if United Nations don’t go in as peace keepers, they would go in themselves in 48hrs to protect the Catholic minority in Northern Ireland - the UK was in there to keep peace just 24 hrs later.
Your raising of the Greek Junta gives us a perfect example. MI6 gave the Junta intelligence they used to assassinate someone. Long after the Junta was gone, the descendants of the assassinated person saw murdering a British General as fair game. We need to think of all the sensitivities of everything we are doing right now. At a time of war we mustn’t ignore all the sensitivities, because if you are on the side of the bad guy doing bad things, if you help them with anything, intelligence, use of bases, munitions, you own bad things, you become just as culpable. And greviances last through generations.
UK and US may actually have been backers of the hideous Junta running Greece - CIA and MI6 did a lot of disgusting meddling in the that region in the past, the capture and murder of Moro in Rome is owned by the CIA, but they actually agreed with Turkey’s concerns about Greek assassinations and takeover of Cyprus, and Turkish fears for the Turkish minority, the US tried to talk the Junta round.
I also haven't particularly quoted the statements from the Cyoriot government, which will obviously from time to time play to popular concerns, but focused more on the specific relationship between Greece and Cyprus, which I'm not fully clear why you have an issue with..The fact remains that the relationship between Greece and Cyprus has effectively been the reason why those Greek jets have protected the British base from those drones today, and for all we know. had the Greeks stayed away as you suggested, the RAF might have struggled to knock them.out alone yesterday morning.
Not sure what game you think Cyprus has been playing , they clearly don’t want to be attacked and don’t want tourists cancelling holidays there . Brits are popular there and are always made welcome by the locals .
The frustration by the Cyprus government is they think the UK should have been better prepared incase war broke out , Akrotiri isn’t just full of UK personnel , Cypriots work and live there .
The Admirals/Warships argument is a load of fucking wank advanced by people who understand neither. There has to be a lot of flag ranks because there has to be a reasonable chance of a mid career officer advancing to flag rank. If there were three Admirals in the entire RN then many Commanders/Captains/Commodores would leave because there would be little prospect of getting your flag. Those ranks are the ones who will actually lead the fighting in a conflict.
I’m not convinced. Were the Greeks needed? I’ll repeat what is already here in the “mini thread”
“ Greece and Cyprus have developed deep strategic partnerships with Israel, including joint military drills. as consequence, Hezbollah and Hamas have for years been threatening Cyprus and Greece, so maybe no surprise drones have come from Hezbollah towards Cyprus, taking opportunity of fog of war to fire them, and not simply down to presence of UK military bases. The US Treasury has sanctioned Turkish-registered companies for helping Hezbollah evade sanctions and move Iranian funds and goods - Turkey normally favour Hamas not Shia Hezbollah, but working together now due to sharing common enemies.”
I guess in my mind the few drones are not really the big issue here. And Dragon isn’t going there to protect Cyprus, what is likely well protected already when it gets there. It shouldn’t need a UK boat either, nor the Greek one. No reason in my mind why allies of UK can’t protect both Cyprus and our 19 installations on our unsinkable aircraft carrier, whilst we deploy warship in other ways.
But.
I’ll quote exactly the same thing again.
“ Greece and Cyprus have developed deep strategic partnerships with Israel, including joint military drills. as consequence, Hezbollah and Hamas have for years been threatening Cyprus and Greece,”
What’s bad for Greece and Cyprus, and their important industry of tourism, are the terrorist bombs and the terrorist atrocities. For that reason, for by whom they are already hated, could it have been better if it wasn’t Greek warship?
My point from the start has been the Greeks wanted to be there, very similar to UK politicians, PBers, UK newspapers want UK bombing alongside the US and Israel, to make the world a better place, especially when you have been attacked yourself. I know the rest of you havn’t a clue what I am trying to say, and you see no issue at all about Greek Warship. To me, just imagining the primary school books preaching Greek hate, Greek Warship is sensitive involvement in this. Just a hunch or feel I have.
I teach Sunday School, that’s basically about being awake and sensitive to the world as Christ encouraged us to be. That’s not at all about being blind or dismissive to hate as detractors might present it.
Both the Israelis and the Americans have talked today about securing air superiority in the next couple of days. All evidence is they have had it since Day 2 and the arrival of B-52 bombers hitting multiple targets in a single mission suggests they have it. What appears to be happening is that they have air superiority in large swathes of the country but there are areas to the East of Iran where they havent really been paying heavy attention to so this mayt account for their vew that air supetioty is not yet achieved.
Now the news about the Kurds is out I should point out its not clear what they are really at yet and caution is advised. I'm not sure how enthusiastic they are or how big the numbers are. My best guess, if they are going to tool up, is this. They are going to hold territory where they ethinically dominate and air strikes have already thinned out government forces, claim they own that land then get into a fight if the Iranian government decides to reverse that control. They might expand out, they might not, but by threatening regime control over a lump of land, it puts the government in a bind. Look weak by not getting into it or get into it and get your arse shot up as you transit and assemble.
Where are the Iranian military? Their navy, airforce and air defence have been stuffed but the land army hasnt necessarily taken the hardest hits as yet, the focus has been in the Revolutionary Guard. Is that deliberate or simply that the US & israel have bigger priorities?
Be aware the Iranian regime is not wholly united right now both technically and in outlook about what top do next. Comms between centre and local commanders are still fraught.
I suspect overnight occurances will actually bring something more significant in news that anything today. There are strong suggestions of US ground elements at work but doing what is unclear.
One final thing, talk around sinking an Iranian naval vessel out in the Indian Ocean and the legal or other merits of it. Catch yourselves on, its a war, its a military vessel, thats the top and bottom of it. Are US embassies military installations? Patently no, but no crying over those being droned.
The war powers vote in the US Senate has just failed in a 47-53 vote - with lawmakers taking their votes almost entirely down party lines. In the end, Senator Rand Paul joined the Democrats to vote yes on limiting Trump's military powers in Iran, with Senator John Fetterman joining the Republicans to vote no."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c62gg44d53xt
Spent every minute.
Indeed it was:
Thrupp (THRUP) vb. To hold a ruler on one end on a desk and make the other end go bbddbbddbbrrbrrrrddrr
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/mar/04/badenoch-gives-a-borderline-disgraceful-performance-at-pmqs-on-iran
I was once almost comically injured/killed by an incredibly slow car. I was sliding, very slowly, on ice towards the road. The car was sliding on ice towards me. It looked fairly likely I might end up under the wheel. Fortunately, it remained a comedy and not a tragedy.
This is a significant escalation:
@UK_MTO
reports an oil tanker that was on anchor offshore Kuwait (and near Iraq too) has been hit by an explosion; oil is spilling and the tanker is tanking on water.
"... There is oil in the water coming from a cargo tank..."
https://x.com/JavierBlas/status/2029444938866262228?s=20
BREAKING: Sky News understands the first chartered flight due to take off from Muscat in Oman at 7pm GMT last night is still on the ground. The flight was due to bring home Brits and their families from the Middle East but passengers have been sent to hotels
2 operational is what would be normal (or slightly above normal) for a class of 6. 2 others would be in short term maintenance to be available for a crisis, and 2 in deeper maintenance. There would normally also be training or exercise, which the DM has not noted. There's a trend to having several in even-longer term refit, because of fundamental problems - and we have 3 not 2 in long term refit.
3 from 7 is good, and perhaps driving the fleet too hard which will cause a rebound later. If only we had not sold 3 to Chile.
More than that and the fleet is being run in an overstressed situation for "normal". That is why I remarked the other day that we need more like 28-30 than 13-15 escort class vessels.
It is also why we and the French both have 4 SSNs ion order to be able to guarantee one to be at sea at all times.
If it's any consolation, we went into WW2 with elements of the fleet not upgraded as planned, because that naughty Mr Hitler had a brainstorm and started early. Admiral Raeder was not happy.
But that is what years of austerity do. Our national infrastructure is pretty dismal for schools, hospitals, councils etc too.
I agree with @Dura_Ace on the white elephants of the carriers. We do not have the ships or sailors to run a defence of home waters. The idea of a blue water carrier group is a fiction.
May as well publish a daily mail piece on Starmer and say it is some home truths for labour
There are going to be many more upsetting stories for all sides
It was a moment where she could have taken the higher ground as LOTO. Rather than criticism for criticism 's sake she could have mixed and matched support for the Government line with questions of operational wisdom. However her line was, and this is contrary to public opinion, fully behind the action taken by Israel and the US, demanding the UK should escalate the crisis. It was a bizarre outburst. Has she learned nothing from Iraq.
If the US has indeed already won*, as the manchild Hegseth claims, she can take her win. But if this collapses into an Iraq facsimile she is going to look very silly, as indeed she did yesterday.
* What does a win look like? Fire and fury across North Africa and the Middle East, the rapture, and Jesus returning to take his place amongst us?
What happens if Jesus turns out not to be white?
Oops
‘ Europe starting to lose LNG cargoes to Asia. The LNG tanker BW Brussels, initially bound for France, has now diverted to Asia.’
https://x.com/thebrawlstreet/status/2029218074990158162?s=61