New: The US has planned an escalating series of strikes with off-ramps along the way, according to a senior US official. Each round will be over a one to two-day period with pauses to reset and assess battle damage. #Iran
Leeds Pub: can we sell a pint for 25p? Leeds City Council: it's a free city go for it. UK government: hold on, hold on, hold on, regs regs regs, you can't sell below cost price according to our regs. Leeds Pub and Council and Leeds Lawyer: we won't "sell" it then. It'll be free. https://x.com/thomasforth/status/2027699797608558632
For anyone not up with fashion, Hannah Spencer now MP, at Glasto, in 2011:
"At home, a lot of girls dress the same way. It's boring. I pretty much dress like this all the time. People always get a shock when I turn up to their door to fix something. I work with lots of fortysomething men and they probably just think I'm a bit weird."
I am no different to every single person here in this constituency. I work hard. That’s what we do.
Except things have changed a lot over the last few decades. Because working hard used to get you something. It got you a house. A nice life. Holidays. It got you somewhere.
But now – working hard? What does that get you? Because talk to anyone here and they’ll tell you. The people who work hard but can’t put food on the table. Can’t get their kids school uniforms. Can’t put their heating on. Can’t live off the pension they worked hard to save for. Can’t even begin to dream about ever having a holiday. Ever. Because life has changed.
Well, she was able to cough up the £205 to go to Glastonbury.
I don't know who else on here goes to music festivals, but there are a lot of working class people at them, even posh ones like Glasto and Latitude, and at Download or Leeds probably form a majority.
£205 for a long weekend with unlimited entertainment is not bad value, comparable to a few away matches to follow a football team, which is unremarkeable working class entertainment for many.
The idea that the only authentic working class is neanderthal knuckledraggers is a pretty crude bit of political bubble prejudice. Even assuming that Spencer won Gorton comfortably she must have had 20-25% of the vote in Denton. Or are they disqualified from being working class automatically by voting Green, in a sort of "no true Scotsman" sort of paradox?
Why are you so desperate for her to be working class?
Why are you so desperate for her not to be?
In fact has Spencer actually claimed to be working class, or has she just described in non RP tones her life as a non-uni educated tradesperson living and working in the area she now represents.
I’m reminded of Andrew Neil’s desperation to prove that Mhairi Black was not working class Paisley, unlike himself as he ranted in orotund, well fed tones from his South of France villa.
I'm not desperate for her not to be, she just isn't. I don't know that she has claimed it for herself at all. She seems to be middle class men's idea of what it is to be working class, and a few of the posters on here really want her to be. But she isn't, and there is nothing wrong with that
Given we don't know the full situation of her up-bringing, I don't think we can give a clear view either way (whereas, we know that Keir Starmer's father was a toolmaker...).
Keir Starmer claims to be from a working class background, but I don't think anyone born in the 60s to parents with a private mortgage had a working class upbringing. Almost all working class people lived in social housing in those days
Maybe they did in London. Most of the people in my home town worked down the pit or in associated industries. There was very little social housing.
My dad was a bricklayer for the Coal Board. He had a mortgage from 1965. So did most of his workmates. And so did his Dad who worked underground.
They are already quite hostile but not as powerful as Saudi. Destroying the UAE would totally mess with the world’s economy and show that messing with Iran comes at a very heavy price. I imagine Israel and Trump would back off
I'm not sure Iran has the capability to do this. My instinct is that their ability to wage war or cause substantial damage is vastly overestimated and the lack of conventional power is why they've invested so much in a nuclear weapons programme and funding proxies.
I have no doubt we'll find out over the next few days anyway.
If FIFA did, for some reason, regularly give out a Peace Prize, you’d think #1 on the list of criteria for potential winners would be “do not start a war with another nation in the World Cup, directly before the start of the World Cup”
FIFA are a corrupt joke. Trump is a corrupt POTUS.
But the Iranian regime is infinitely worse.
Just because Trump is bad, is no reason to oppose the liberation of Iran. Your reflexive "anything Trump does is bad" attitude is drowning out all else.
How else should the Iranian people be freed, given that the regime is slaughtering protestors? Other than force, what alternative do you propose?
Should we all just sit back, watch the Iranians get slaughtered, watch Iran supply Russia with drones and tut and do jack shit?
Is Trump genuinely going for regime change or something altogether less satisfying?
It does seem that Trump is on board with any military action if someone explains to him that they stole the 2020 election. Perhaps Nigel should tell Trump Starmer and the Labour Party stole the election in 2020. Although Nigel doesn't seem as popular as Tiny Tom in Whitehouse circles these days.
Trump is Trump, he will do what he wants. We should do nothing to assist him.
Israel is Israel, a Country that under the present regime commits mass murder. We should do nothing to assist them.
We should protect our interests our people our bases defensively.
Contrary to the war mongering zionist lap dogs Farage and Badenoch we should not get involved in any action involving Israel.
There is a NATO caveat with the US which complicates matters but should be subject to the decision of All NATO members
Israel is like Iran a rogue State if Iran and Israel bomb the feck out of each other, we must not intervene. The world would be a better place without both regimes.
The actions of the US and Israel breach international law, we must abide by international law
The Commons must agree any action by majority vote unless there is an imminent risk to British forces.
BREAKING: The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia states they will join the US in operation against the Islamic Republic Regime after the IRI attacks US base in Saudi Arabia.
Just realised I’m flying Shanghai-LHR tomorrow. BA
How the fuck are they gonna do that? All Russian and Ukrainian airspace has been shut for years
Now all of the Middle East?!
Well enjoy a few more days in communist China!
It’s either be a huge diversion South almost to the Equator, then up through Africa, or you’ll head East and do a round-the-world trip back over Canada.
If FIFA did, for some reason, regularly give out a Peace Prize, you’d think #1 on the list of criteria for potential winners would be “do not start a war with another nation in the World Cup, directly before the start of the World Cup”
FIFA are a corrupt joke. Trump is a corrupt POTUS.
But the Iranian regime is infinitely worse.
Just because Trump is bad, is no reason to oppose the liberation of Iran. Your reflexive "anything Trump does is bad" attitude is drowning out all else.
How else should the Iranian people be freed, given that the regime is slaughtering protestors? Other than force, what alternative do you propose?
Should we all just sit back, watch the Iranians get slaughtered, watch Iran supply Russia with drones and tut and do jack shit?
Is Trump genuinely going for regime change or something altogether less satisfying?
It does seem that Trump is on board with any military action if someone explains to him that they stole the 2020 election. Perhaps Nigel should tell Trump Starmer and the Labour Party stole the election in 2020. Although Nigel doesn't seem as popular as Tiny Tom in Whitehouse circles these days.
I could not care less about Trump's motivations or what he is going for, I care about results.
If we see the liberation of Iran, then great.
Anything short of regime change, is a miserable failure.
The UK should be using our full military power and diplomatic power to push for regime change, explicitly, too. Instead we're just bystanders. Pathetic.
For anyone not up with fashion, Hannah Spencer now MP, at Glasto, in 2011:
"At home, a lot of girls dress the same way. It's boring. I pretty much dress like this all the time. People always get a shock when I turn up to their door to fix something. I work with lots of fortysomething men and they probably just think I'm a bit weird."
I am no different to every single person here in this constituency. I work hard. That’s what we do.
Except things have changed a lot over the last few decades. Because working hard used to get you something. It got you a house. A nice life. Holidays. It got you somewhere.
But now – working hard? What does that get you? Because talk to anyone here and they’ll tell you. The people who work hard but can’t put food on the table. Can’t get their kids school uniforms. Can’t put their heating on. Can’t live off the pension they worked hard to save for. Can’t even begin to dream about ever having a holiday. Ever. Because life has changed.
Well, she was able to cough up the £205 to go to Glastonbury.
I don't know who else on here goes to music festivals, but there are a lot of working class people at them, even posh ones like Glasto and Latitude, and at Download or Leeds probably form a majority.
£205 for a long weekend with unlimited entertainment is not bad value, comparable to a few away matches to follow a football team, which is unremarkeable working class entertainment for many.
The idea that the only authentic working class is neanderthal knuckledraggers is a pretty crude bit of political bubble prejudice. Even assuming that Spencer won Gorton comfortably she must have had 20-25% of the vote in Denton. Or are they disqualified from being working class automatically by voting Green, in a sort of "no true Scotsman" sort of paradox?
Why are you so desperate for her to be working class?
Why are you so desperate for her not to be?
In fact has Spencer actually claimed to be working class, or has she just described in non RP tones her life as a non-uni educated tradesperson living and working in the area she now represents.
I’m reminded of Andrew Neil’s desperation to prove that Mhairi Black was not working class Paisley, unlike himself as he ranted in orotund, well fed tones from his South of France villa.
I'm not desperate for her not to be, she just isn't. I don't know that she has claimed it for herself at all. She seems to be middle class men's idea of what it is to be working class, and a few of the posters on here really want her to be. But she isn't, and there is nothing wrong with that
Given we don't know the full situation of her up-bringing, I don't think we can give a clear view either way (whereas, we know that Keir Starmer's father was a toolmaker...).
Keir Starmer claims to be from a working class background, but I don't think anyone born in the 60s to parents with a private mortgage had a working class upbringing. Almost all working class people lived in social housing in those days
Maybe they did in London. Most of the people in my home town worked down the pit or in associated industries. There was very little social housing.
My dad was a bricklayer for the Coal Board. He had a mortgage from 1965. So did most of his workmates. And so did his Dad who worked underground.
That’s interesting. My coal mining grandfather bought a plot of land with his wife who was a teacher and built his own house and had a small-holding. But, most of Bolsover’s miners would have been in social housing.
When I worked on the 2011 census I noticed that Bolsover still had a lot of social housing and that was related to a big increase in central heating compared with 2001 (a lot including my grandfather still used coal until not that long ago).
Trump is Trump, he will do what he wants. We should do nothing to assist him.
Israel is Israel, a Country that under the present regime commits mass murder. We should do nothing to assist them.
We should protect our interests our people our bases defensively.
Contrary to the war mongering zionist lap dogs Farage and Badenoch we should not get involved in any action involving Israel.
There is a NATO caveat with the US which complicates matters but should be subject to the decision of All NATO members
Israel is like Iran a rogue State if Iran and Israel bomb the feck out of each other, we must not intervene. The world would be a better place without both regimes.
The actions of the US and Israel breach international law, we must abide by international law
The Commons must agree any action by majority vote unless there is an imminent risk to British forces.
Oh do kindly f*** right off with this "international law" bullshit. International law is a joke and does not exist.
Any "law" that does exist that says we should stand back, watch people get slaughtered, and do nothing is not just useless but an ass and should be abolished.
Has Iran closed the straits of Hormuz (sp?)? I freely confess, geography being a very weak point, not really knowing what closing them would do, but it is consistently threatened. And if they are not closing them, does this mean they don't feel threatened existentially, but are just planning to get bombed a bit and weather it?
Trump is Trump, he will do what he wants. We should do nothing to assist him.
Israel is Israel, a Country that under the present regime commits mass murder. We should do nothing to assist them.
We should protect our interests our people our bases defensively.
Contrary to the war mongering zionist lap dogs Farage and Badenoch we should not get involved in any action involving Israel.
There is a NATO caveat with the US which complicates matters but should be subject to the decision of All NATO members
Israel is like Iran a rogue State if Iran and Israel bomb the feck out of each other, we must not intervene. The world would be a better place without both regimes.
The actions of the US and Israel breach international law, we must abide by international law
The Commons must agree any action by majority vote unless there is an imminent risk to British forces.
Despite being an obvious Labour insider, you still think this government has any will to act differently from what the US commands?
Has Iran closed the straits of Hormuz (sp?)? I freely confess, geography being a very weak point, not really knowing what closing them would do, but it is consistently threatened. And if they are not closing them, does this mean they don't feel threatened existentially, but are just planning to get bombed a bit and weather it?
We have plenty of Iran experts here. I’m sure they will advise you.
However it's done getting rid of the current regime is the easy bit. Unless Israel and the US plan on occupying Iran it will be Iranians who determine who rules next. There does seem to be a presumption of "it can't be worse" based upon talking mainly to Iranian exiles. It seems just as likely to me that Iran ends up with a less religious government, Army backed rather than the IRGC, that aligns with China and remains antagonistic towards Israel and the US.
Great little Irish pub, racing and cricket on the TVs, friendly staff, an Irish band playing this evening, and plenty of the black stuff. Highly recommended!
I see someone has been charged with defacing the Churchill statue.
"Caspar San Giorgio", of no fixed address.
Something doesn't ring true there. If it was someone homeless, was there payment involved?
If you Google his name, all the top hits relate to events of the last few days, apart from one which is in Russian from a week back - before the incident. Which seems a tad odd?
If FIFA did, for some reason, regularly give out a Peace Prize, you’d think #1 on the list of criteria for potential winners would be “do not start a war with another nation in the World Cup, directly before the start of the World Cup”
FIFA are a corrupt joke. Trump is a corrupt POTUS.
But the Iranian regime is infinitely worse.
Just because Trump is bad, is no reason to oppose the liberation of Iran. Your reflexive "anything Trump does is bad" attitude is drowning out all else.
How else should the Iranian people be freed, given that the regime is slaughtering protestors? Other than force, what alternative do you propose?
Should we all just sit back, watch the Iranians get slaughtered, watch Iran supply Russia with drones and tut and do jack shit?
Is Trump genuinely going for regime change or something altogether less satisfying?
It does seem that Trump is on board with any military action if someone explains to him that they stole the 2020 election. Perhaps Nigel should tell Trump Starmer and the Labour Party stole the election in 2020. Although Nigel doesn't seem as popular as Tiny Tom in Whitehouse circles these days.
I could not care less about Trump's motivations or what he is going for, I care about results.
If we see the liberation of Iran, then great.
Anything short of regime change, is a miserable failure.
The UK should be using our full military power and diplomatic power to push for regime change, explicitly, too. Instead we're just bystanders. Pathetic.
Being bystanders well into both World Wars earned the USA its status as the world's leading power. The UK should be rebuilding its military and diplomatic power, not expending it at any opportunity in a witless effort to prove there's still lead in our pencil.
Trump is Trump, he will do what he wants. We should do nothing to assist him.
Israel is Israel, a Country that under the present regime commits mass murder. We should do nothing to assist them.
We should protect our interests our people our bases defensively.
Contrary to the war mongering zionist lap dogs Farage and Badenoch we should not get involved in any action involving Israel.
There is a NATO caveat with the US which complicates matters but should be subject to the decision of All NATO members
Israel is like Iran a rogue State if Iran and Israel bomb the feck out of each other, we must not intervene. The world would be a better place without both regimes.
The actions of the US and Israel breach international law, we must abide by international law
The Commons must agree any action by majority vote unless there is an imminent risk to British forces.
Oh do kindly f*** right off with this "international law" bullshit. International law is a joke and does not exist.
Any "law" that does exist that says we should stand back, watch people get slaughtered, and do nothing is not just useless but an ass and should be abolished.
Oh come on. Labour wants to oppose getting rid of the Mullahs not because it’s right or wrong but for fear of offending its client vote. Especially after being dicked by the pro Hamas Green Party.
I see someone has been charged with defacing the Churchill statue.
"Caspar San Giorgio", of no fixed address.
Something doesn't ring true there. If it was someone homeless, was there payment involved?
If you Google his name, all the top hits relate to events of the last few days, apart from one which is in Russian from a week back - before the incident. Which seems a tad odd?
For anyone not up with fashion, Hannah Spencer now MP, at Glasto, in 2011:
"At home, a lot of girls dress the same way. It's boring. I pretty much dress like this all the time. People always get a shock when I turn up to their door to fix something. I work with lots of fortysomething men and they probably just think I'm a bit weird."
I am no different to every single person here in this constituency. I work hard. That’s what we do.
Except things have changed a lot over the last few decades. Because working hard used to get you something. It got you a house. A nice life. Holidays. It got you somewhere.
But now – working hard? What does that get you? Because talk to anyone here and they’ll tell you. The people who work hard but can’t put food on the table. Can’t get their kids school uniforms. Can’t put their heating on. Can’t live off the pension they worked hard to save for. Can’t even begin to dream about ever having a holiday. Ever. Because life has changed.
Well, she was able to cough up the £205 to go to Glastonbury.
I don't know who else on here goes to music festivals, but there are a lot of working class people at them, even posh ones like Glasto and Latitude, and at Download or Leeds probably form a majority.
£205 for a long weekend with unlimited entertainment is not bad value, comparable to a few away matches to follow a football team, which is unremarkeable working class entertainment for many.
The idea that the only authentic working class is neanderthal knuckledraggers is a pretty crude bit of political bubble prejudice. Even assuming that Spencer won Gorton comfortably she must have had 20-25% of the vote in Denton. Or are they disqualified from being working class automatically by voting Green, in a sort of "no true Scotsman" sort of paradox?
Why are you so desperate for her to be working class?
Why are you so desperate for her not to be?
In fact has Spencer actually claimed to be working class, or has she just described in non RP tones her life as a non-uni educated tradesperson living and working in the area she now represents.
I’m reminded of Andrew Neil’s desperation to prove that Mhairi Black was not working class Paisley, unlike himself as he ranted in orotund, well fed tones from his South of France villa.
I'm not desperate for her not to be, she just isn't. I don't know that she has claimed it for herself at all. She seems to be middle class men's idea of what it is to be working class, and a few of the posters on here really want her to be. But she isn't, and there is nothing wrong with that
Given we don't know the full situation of her up-bringing, I don't think we can give a clear view either way (whereas, we know that Keir Starmer's father was a toolmaker...).
Keir Starmer claims to be from a working class background, but I don't think anyone born in the 60s to parents with a private mortgage had a working class upbringing. Almost all working class people lived in social housing in those days
Maybe they did in London. Most of the people in my home town worked down the pit or in associated industries. There was very little social housing.
My dad was a bricklayer for the Coal Board. He had a mortgage from 1965. So did most of his workmates. And so did his Dad who worked underground.
That’s interesting. My coal mining grandfather bought a plot of land with his wife who was a teacher and built his own house and had a small-holding. But, most of Bolsover’s miners would have been in social housing.
When I worked on the 2011 census I noticed that Bolsover still had a lot of social housing and that was related to a big increase in central heating compared with 2001 (a lot including my grandfather still used coal until not that long ago).
Perhaps it stems from when the housing stock was built. Wigan was mostly Victorian. Mining peaked there in c.1900? So before extensive social housing. Meaning housing was cheap. I believe my parents bought a terrace for £850 in the mid sixties. There was a large sixties Council Estate but that was predominantly for Liverpool slum clearance overspill.
Just realised I’m flying Shanghai-LHR tomorrow. BA
How the fuck are they gonna do that? All Russian and Ukrainian airspace has been shut for years
Now all of the Middle East?!
Well enjoy a few more days in communist China!
It’s either be a huge diversion South almost to the Equator, then up through Africa, or you’ll head East and do a round-the-world trip back over Canada.
Presumably they will have to refuel somewhere in either scenario?
Has Iran closed the straits of Hormuz (sp?)? I freely confess, geography being a very weak point, not really knowing what closing them would do, but it is consistently threatened. And if they are not closing them, does this mean they don't feel threatened existentially, but are just planning to get bombed a bit and weather it?
Looks like it’s still open at the moment, but who knows whether or not that will continue to be the case.
For anyone not up with fashion, Hannah Spencer now MP, at Glasto, in 2011:
"At home, a lot of girls dress the same way. It's boring. I pretty much dress like this all the time. People always get a shock when I turn up to their door to fix something. I work with lots of fortysomething men and they probably just think I'm a bit weird."
I am no different to every single person here in this constituency. I work hard. That’s what we do.
Except things have changed a lot over the last few decades. Because working hard used to get you something. It got you a house. A nice life. Holidays. It got you somewhere.
But now – working hard? What does that get you? Because talk to anyone here and they’ll tell you. The people who work hard but can’t put food on the table. Can’t get their kids school uniforms. Can’t put their heating on. Can’t live off the pension they worked hard to save for. Can’t even begin to dream about ever having a holiday. Ever. Because life has changed.
Well, she was able to cough up the £205 to go to Glastonbury.
I don't know who else on here goes to music festivals, but there are a lot of working class people at them, even posh ones like Glasto and Latitude, and at Download or Leeds probably form a majority.
£205 for a long weekend with unlimited entertainment is not bad value, comparable to a few away matches to follow a football team, which is unremarkeable working class entertainment for many.
The idea that the only authentic working class is neanderthal knuckledraggers is a pretty crude bit of political bubble prejudice. Even assuming that Spencer won Gorton comfortably she must have had 20-25% of the vote in Denton. Or are they disqualified from being working class automatically by voting Green, in a sort of "no true Scotsman" sort of paradox?
Why are you so desperate for her to be working class?
Why are you so desperate for her not to be?
In fact has Spencer actually claimed to be working class, or has she just described in non RP tones her life as a non-uni educated tradesperson living and working in the area she now represents.
I’m reminded of Andrew Neil’s desperation to prove that Mhairi Black was not working class Paisley, unlike himself as he ranted in orotund, well fed tones from his South of France villa.
I'm not desperate for her not to be, she just isn't. I don't know that she has claimed it for herself at all. She seems to be middle class men's idea of what it is to be working class, and a few of the posters on here really want her to be. But she isn't, and there is nothing wrong with that
Given we don't know the full situation of her up-bringing, I don't think we can give a clear view either way (whereas, we know that Keir Starmer's father was a toolmaker...).
Keir Starmer claims to be from a working class background, but I don't think anyone born in the 60s to parents with a private mortgage had a working class upbringing. Almost all working class people lived in social housing in those days
Maybe they did in London. Most of the people in my home town worked down the pit or in associated industries. There was very little social housing.
My dad was a bricklayer for the Coal Board. He had a mortgage from 1965. So did most of his workmates. And so did his Dad who worked underground.
That’s interesting. My coal mining grandfather bought a plot of land with his wife who was a teacher and built his own house and had a small-holding. But, most of Bolsover’s miners would have been in social housing.
When I worked on the 2011 census I noticed that Bolsover still had a lot of social housing and that was related to a big increase in central heating compared with 2001 (a lot including my grandfather still used coal until not that long ago).
Perhaps it stems from when the housing stock was built. Wigan was mostly Victorian. Mining peaked there in c.1900. So before extensive social housing. Meaning housing was cheap. I believe my parents bought a terrace for £850 in the mid sixties. There was a large sixties Council Estate but that was predominantly for Liverpool slum clearance overspill.
Cannock, also a mining area, would have been about 60% council housing in the 1960s/70s. Mostly built in the period 1951-68.
Almost does not mean always, but hopefully Trump does not chicken out.
If boots are needed, boots should be sent.
If he reverts to form and chickens out and allows this regime to change, he is a miserable failure.
When can you think of when it did work?
It didn't topple Milosovic, or Saddam, or Gaddafi.
My guess is Trump will bomb the shit out of Iran for 72 hours, kill a fair number of people but likely not anyone important, declare mission acomplished and watch as they rape and murder another 100,000 protestors and doctors.
It did topple Gaddafi.
No western troops were sent. We only sent missiles, the locals did the rest.
If Trump does as you say, then shame on him. Not for the first time.
I think it's pushing it a bit to say airstrikes toppled Gaddafi. Rather, I would say that they prevented him crushing the uprising in Benghazi, and he was later overthrown by that uprising.
That's not negligible, but on their own they would not have been enough. There were boots on the ground - just Libyan ones.
There were some “observers” from various NATO countries in Libya, on the ground. Including US ones. Calling in air strikes in support of the insurgents.
For anyone not up with fashion, Hannah Spencer now MP, at Glasto, in 2011:
"At home, a lot of girls dress the same way. It's boring. I pretty much dress like this all the time. People always get a shock when I turn up to their door to fix something. I work with lots of fortysomething men and they probably just think I'm a bit weird."
I am no different to every single person here in this constituency. I work hard. That’s what we do.
Except things have changed a lot over the last few decades. Because working hard used to get you something. It got you a house. A nice life. Holidays. It got you somewhere.
But now – working hard? What does that get you? Because talk to anyone here and they’ll tell you. The people who work hard but can’t put food on the table. Can’t get their kids school uniforms. Can’t put their heating on. Can’t live off the pension they worked hard to save for. Can’t even begin to dream about ever having a holiday. Ever. Because life has changed.
Well, she was able to cough up the £205 to go to Glastonbury.
I don't know who else on here goes to music festivals, but there are a lot of working class people at them, even posh ones like Glasto and Latitude, and at Download or Leeds probably form a majority.
£205 for a long weekend with unlimited entertainment is not bad value, comparable to a few away matches to follow a football team, which is unremarkeable working class entertainment for many.
The idea that the only authentic working class is neanderthal knuckledraggers is a pretty crude bit of political bubble prejudice. Even assuming that Spencer won Gorton comfortably she must have had 20-25% of the vote in Denton. Or are they disqualified from being working class automatically by voting Green, in a sort of "no true Scotsman" sort of paradox?
Why are you so desperate for her to be working class?
Why are you so desperate for her not to be?
In fact has Spencer actually claimed to be working class, or has she just described in non RP tones her life as a non-uni educated tradesperson living and working in the area she now represents.
I’m reminded of Andrew Neil’s desperation to prove that Mhairi Black was not working class Paisley, unlike himself as he ranted in orotund, well fed tones from his South of France villa.
I'm not desperate for her not to be, she just isn't. I don't know that she has claimed it for herself at all. She seems to be middle class men's idea of what it is to be working class, and a few of the posters on here really want her to be. But she isn't, and there is nothing wrong with that
Given we don't know the full situation of her up-bringing, I don't think we can give a clear view either way (whereas, we know that Keir Starmer's father was a toolmaker...).
Keir Starmer claims to be from a working class background, but I don't think anyone born in the 60s to parents with a private mortgage had a working class upbringing. Almost all working class people lived in social housing in those days
Maybe they did in London. Most of the people in my home town worked down the pit or in associated industries. There was very little social housing.
My dad was a bricklayer for the Coal Board. He had a mortgage from 1965. So did most of his workmates. And so did his Dad who worked underground.
In 1967 51% of people owned their property, 29% were in social housing and 20% rented privately, so I would say it was quite unusual for working class families to have mortgages. I would assume the majority of the 51% were not working class.
Leeds Pub: can we sell a pint for 25p? Leeds City Council: it's a free city go for it. UK government: hold on, hold on, hold on, regs regs regs, you can't sell below cost price according to our regs. Leeds Pub and Council and Leeds Lawyer: we won't "sell" it then. It'll be free. https://x.com/thomasforth/status/2027699797608558632
When the supermarkets started selling petrol, they initially tried it as a loss leader, to get people in.
The government wrote new laws, pretty much over a weekend, to prevent selling petrol or diesel at a loss. Because of the tax implications.
Just realised I’m flying Shanghai-LHR tomorrow. BA
How the fuck are they gonna do that? All Russian and Ukrainian airspace has been shut for years
Now all of the Middle East?!
Well enjoy a few more days in communist China!
It’s either be a huge diversion South almost to the Equator, then up through Africa, or you’ll head East and do a round-the-world trip back over Canada.
Looking at Flight Radar, I feel for the ATC in Azerbaijan and Turkey at the moment; loads of planes flying the narrow path south of Russia and north of the mid east!
Trump is Trump, he will do what he wants. We should do nothing to assist him.
Israel is Israel, a Country that under the present regime commits mass murder. We should do nothing to assist them.
We should protect our interests our people our bases defensively.
Contrary to the war mongering zionist lap dogs Farage and Badenoch we should not get involved in any action involving Israel.
There is a NATO caveat with the US which complicates matters but should be subject to the decision of All NATO members
Israel is like Iran a rogue State if Iran and Israel bomb the feck out of each other, we must not intervene. The world would be a better place without both regimes.
The actions of the US and Israel breach international law, we must abide by international law
The Commons must agree any action by majority vote unless there is an imminent risk to British forces.
Despite being an obvious Labour insider, you still think this government has any will to act differently from what the US commands?
Last week I'd have said no to that question.
Now that the zionist cabal inside Labour is considerably weaker, I hope that Starmer will defend UK interest NO more than that.
I am not a Labour insider, I wish I was.
Iran under current governance is evil Israel under current governance is as evil. The US is led by a nutter.
I'd have nothing to do with any of them apart from protection of our immediate interest.
Personally I cannot differentiate under current governance between Israel and Iran in depravity.
If each of them took each others leaders out and bought a our regime change on each Country it would be a day for great celebration. The more civilised civilians on both Countries safe and protected the better.
For anyone not up with fashion, Hannah Spencer now MP, at Glasto, in 2011:
"At home, a lot of girls dress the same way. It's boring. I pretty much dress like this all the time. People always get a shock when I turn up to their door to fix something. I work with lots of fortysomething men and they probably just think I'm a bit weird."
I am no different to every single person here in this constituency. I work hard. That’s what we do.
Except things have changed a lot over the last few decades. Because working hard used to get you something. It got you a house. A nice life. Holidays. It got you somewhere.
But now – working hard? What does that get you? Because talk to anyone here and they’ll tell you. The people who work hard but can’t put food on the table. Can’t get their kids school uniforms. Can’t put their heating on. Can’t live off the pension they worked hard to save for. Can’t even begin to dream about ever having a holiday. Ever. Because life has changed.
Well, she was able to cough up the £205 to go to Glastonbury.
I don't know who else on here goes to music festivals, but there are a lot of working class people at them, even posh ones like Glasto and Latitude, and at Download or Leeds probably form a majority.
£205 for a long weekend with unlimited entertainment is not bad value, comparable to a few away matches to follow a football team, which is unremarkeable working class entertainment for many.
The idea that the only authentic working class is neanderthal knuckledraggers is a pretty crude bit of political bubble prejudice. Even assuming that Spencer won Gorton comfortably she must have had 20-25% of the vote in Denton. Or are they disqualified from being working class automatically by voting Green, in a sort of "no true Scotsman" sort of paradox?
Why are you so desperate for her to be working class?
Why are you so desperate for her not to be?
In fact has Spencer actually claimed to be working class, or has she just described in non RP tones her life as a non-uni educated tradesperson living and working in the area she now represents.
I’m reminded of Andrew Neil’s desperation to prove that Mhairi Black was not working class Paisley, unlike himself as he ranted in orotund, well fed tones from his South of France villa.
I'm not desperate for her not to be, she just isn't. I don't know that she has claimed it for herself at all. She seems to be middle class men's idea of what it is to be working class, and a few of the posters on here really want her to be. But she isn't, and there is nothing wrong with that
Given we don't know the full situation of her up-bringing, I don't think we can give a clear view either way (whereas, we know that Keir Starmer's father was a toolmaker...).
Keir Starmer claims to be from a working class background, but I don't think anyone born in the 60s to parents with a private mortgage had a working class upbringing. Almost all working class people lived in social housing in those days
Maybe they did in London. Most of the people in my home town worked down the pit or in associated industries. There was very little social housing.
My dad was a bricklayer for the Coal Board. He had a mortgage from 1965. So did most of his workmates. And so did his Dad who worked underground.
That’s interesting. My coal mining grandfather bought a plot of land with his wife who was a teacher and built his own house and had a small-holding. But, most of Bolsover’s miners would have been in social housing.
When I worked on the 2011 census I noticed that Bolsover still had a lot of social housing and that was related to a big increase in central heating compared with 2001 (a lot including my grandfather still used coal until not that long ago).
Perhaps it stems from when the housing stock was built. Wigan was mostly Victorian. Mining peaked there in c.1900. So before extensive social housing. Meaning housing was cheap. I believe my parents bought a terrace for £850 in the mid sixties. There was a large sixties Council Estate but that was predominantly for Liverpool slum clearance overspill.
Cannock, also a mining area, would have been about 60% council housing in the 1960s/70s. Mostly built in the period 1951-68.
My parents generation - getting first places in the 60s - were all about buying. The dizzying increase in living standards* meant that buying was suffering reach of many. “No hiding under the kitchen table when the rent man knocks on the door”
Just realised I’m flying Shanghai-LHR tomorrow. BA
How the fuck are they gonna do that? All Russian and Ukrainian airspace has been shut for years
Now all of the Middle East?!
Well enjoy a few more days in communist China!
It’s either be a huge diversion South almost to the Equator, then up through Africa, or you’ll head East and do a round-the-world trip back over Canada.
Presumably they will have to refuel somewhere in either scenario?
Depends on the plane type and how full it is.
Edit: so the nerd in me went and looked it up. Today’s Flight, BA168, has been threading a path through the Stans and is currently South of Ukraine and North of Turkey in the Black Sea. It’s a 13 hour flight, and today’s equipment is a 777-200ER. It’ll be pretty much at the limit of its endurance, so yes it would have to stop for fuel if they went the other way around or diverted much from the intended route.
Has Iran closed the straits of Hormuz (sp?)? I freely confess, geography being a very weak point, not really knowing what closing them would do, but it is consistently threatened. And if they are not closing them, does this mean they don't feel threatened existentially, but are just planning to get bombed a bit and weather it?
By 'closing they actually mean throwing missiles at anything that tries to go through the Straits. So that stops the export of oil from Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, Iraq and much of Saudi. I would hope that over the last 4 decades some of these countries will have made alternative arrangements with land pipelines to the Red Sea or the Indian Ocean but I am not sure this has happened to any great extent.
In the past they have resisted closure for fear of being attacked but I assume that is no longer a concern.
Has Iran closed the straits of Hormuz (sp?)? I freely confess, geography being a very weak point, not really knowing what closing them would do, but it is consistently threatened. And if they are not closing them, does this mean they don't feel threatened existentially, but are just planning to get bombed a bit and weather it?
By 'closing they actually mean throwing missiles at anything that tries to go through the Straits. So that stops the export of oil from Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, Iraq and much of Saudi. I would hope that over the last 4 decades some of these countries will have made alternative arrangements with land pipelines to the Red Sea or the Indian Ocean but I am not sure this has happened to any great extent.
In the past they have resisted closure for fear of being attacked but I assume that is no longer a concern.
You’re in the trade, Richard, have they made alternative plans ?
Has Iran closed the straits of Hormuz (sp?)? I freely confess, geography being a very weak point, not really knowing what closing them would do, but it is consistently threatened. And if they are not closing them, does this mean they don't feel threatened existentially, but are just planning to get bombed a bit and weather it?
By 'closing they actually mean throwing missiles at anything that tries to go through the Straits. So that stops the export of oil from Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, Iraq and much of Saudi. I would hope that over the last 4 decades some of these countries will have made alternative arrangements with land pipelines to the Red Sea or the Indian Ocean but I am not sure this has happened to any great extent.
In the past they have resisted closure for fear of being attacked but I assume that is no longer a concern.
That’s why the Emiratis spent more than $3bn on this pipeline, that can get 1.5m barrels per day out to the Indian Ocean, East of the Straight of Hormuz.
Has Iran closed the straits of Hormuz (sp?)? I freely confess, geography being a very weak point, not really knowing what closing them would do, but it is consistently threatened. And if they are not closing them, does this mean they don't feel threatened existentially, but are just planning to get bombed a bit and weather it?
By 'closing they actually mean throwing missiles at anything that tries to go through the Straits. So that stops the export of oil from Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, Iraq and much of Saudi. I would hope that over the last 4 decades some of these countries will have made alternative arrangements with land pipelines to the Red Sea or the Indian Ocean but I am not sure this has happened to any great extent.
In the past they have resisted closure for fear of being attacked but I assume that is no longer a concern.
You’re in the trade, Richard, have they made alternative plans ?
Not as far as I know. Saudi has the ability as it has ports on the Red Sea. All the others would have to cross someone else's land.
Saudi for Bahrain and Qatar Saudi or Oman for the UAE Saudi, Syria or Turkey for Iraq.
I am not aware of any of them having made such arrangements
OT. Rachel Mclean the worst candidate ever on Any Questions. She was booed and quite right too. If she's what the new Tories are like they're finished. Really
This is an illegal, unprovoked and brutal attack that shows once again that the USA and Israel are rogue states.
The UK must end our cosy relationship with the USA and our ongoing support for Israel.
Zack and the Mullahs, a love story
We'll done Zack
I wish Starmer would have the balls to say the same thing.
The key missing though is that Iran too is a rogue state.
Under current governance all 3 are.
The comments of Farage Badenoch and surprise surprise Pritti the MP for Tel Aviv prove conclusively that these Zionist puppets must never again be allowed to govern the UK.
Trump is Trump, he will do what he wants. We should do nothing to assist him.
Israel is Israel, a Country that under the present regime commits mass murder. We should do nothing to assist them.
We should protect our interests our people our bases defensively.
Contrary to the war mongering zionist lap dogs Farage and Badenoch we should not get involved in any action involving Israel.
There is a NATO caveat with the US which complicates matters but should be subject to the decision of All NATO members
Israel is like Iran a rogue State if Iran and Israel bomb the feck out of each other, we must not intervene. The world would be a better place without both regimes.
The actions of the US and Israel breach international law, we must abide by international law
The Commons must agree any action by majority vote unless there is an imminent risk to British forces.
Oh do kindly f*** right off with this "international law" bullshit. International law is a joke and does not exist.
Any "law" that does exist that says we should stand back, watch people get slaughtered, and do nothing is not just useless but an ass and should be abolished.
International law prevents us from taking action against regimes who threaten our way of life but does nothing to prevent them from funding terrorists and proxies. It is now the tool of dictators and despots to make idiotic white liberals and centrist dads kowtow to corrupt kangaroo courts.
OT. Rachel Mclean the worst candidate ever on Any Questions. She was booed and quite right too. If she's what the new Tories are like they're finished. Really
She's actually better than Whataley, Trott, Atkins, Burghardt, Philp, Pritti, Coutinho, Stride, Cartlidge and many others.
Has Iran closed the straits of Hormuz (sp?)? I freely confess, geography being a very weak point, not really knowing what closing them would do, but it is consistently threatened. And if they are not closing them, does this mean they don't feel threatened existentially, but are just planning to get bombed a bit and weather it?
By 'closing they actually mean throwing missiles at anything that tries to go through the Straits. So that stops the export of oil from Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, Iraq and much of Saudi. I would hope that over the last 4 decades some of these countries will have made alternative arrangements with land pipelines to the Red Sea or the Indian Ocean but I am not sure this has happened to any great extent.
In the past they have resisted closure for fear of being attacked but I assume that is no longer a concern.
You’re in the trade, Richard, have they made alternative plans ?
Not as far as I know. Saudi has the ability as it has ports on the Red Sea. All the others would have to cross someone else's land.
Saudi for Bahrain and Qatar Saudi or Oman for the UAE Saudi, Syria or Turkey for Iraq.
I am not aware of any of them having made such arrangements
Israel assesses the assassination was successful; the likelihood that Supreme Leader of Iran Ali Khamenei survived the Israeli strike is slim to none - N12
These are all from the US to Dubai EK216 diverting to Rome EK226 diverting to Munich EK230 diverting to Warsaw EK202 diverting to Vienna EK236 diverting to Budapest EK212 diverting to Prague
This is an illegal, unprovoked and brutal attack that shows once again that the USA and Israel are rogue states.
The UK must end our cosy relationship with the USA and our ongoing support for Israel.
Zack and the Mullahs, a love story
We'll done Zack
I wish Starmer would have the balls to say the same thing.
The key missing though is that Iran too is a rogue state.
Under current governance all 3 are.
The comments of Farage Badenoch and surprise surprise Pritti the MP for Tel Aviv prove conclusively that these Zionist puppets must never again be allowed to govern the UK.
“Zionist puppets”
This follows “Zionist cabal” and “Zionist clique” in recent days. And apparently infesting multiple parties
So you’re an open anti-Semite. Good to have that settled
I don’t think that will be a horrifying shock for the Islamo-left that voted Green last week. They openly hate America, Israel, the West
Regrettably I think you're right.
As someone who is very pro-migration I am concerned that this is a dilemma I have no idea how we can address. The rise of Islamofascist politics in this country is not one I desire to see.
Most Muslims I think are normal, sensible people who will vote on principles they believe in, like TSE.
However the rise of Islamofascist sectarian voting is one of deep concern.
Sectarian voting was not healthy for Northern Ireland. It is not a future I would like to see for England.
Trump is Trump, he will do what he wants. We should do nothing to assist him.
Israel is Israel, a Country that under the present regime commits mass murder. We should do nothing to assist them.
We should protect our interests our people our bases defensively.
Contrary to the war mongering zionist lap dogs Farage and Badenoch we should not get involved in any action involving Israel.
There is a NATO caveat with the US which complicates matters but should be subject to the decision of All NATO members
Israel is like Iran a rogue State if Iran and Israel bomb the feck out of each other, we must not intervene. The world would be a better place without both regimes.
The actions of the US and Israel breach international law, we must abide by international law
The Commons must agree any action by majority vote unless there is an imminent risk to British forces.
Oh do kindly f*** right off with this "international law" bullshit. International law is a joke and does not exist.
Any "law" that does exist that says we should stand back, watch people get slaughtered, and do nothing is not just useless but an ass and should be abolished.
International law prevents us from taking action against regimes who threaten our way of life but does nothing to prevent them from funding terrorists and proxies. It is now the tool of dictators and despots to make idiotic white liberals and centrist dads kowtow to corrupt kangaroo courts.
Hmmmm...I think actually their vast nuclear arsenal and colossal army, navy and air force is what stops us targeting them.
Oh, sorry, weren't you referring to the Americans?
For anyone not up with fashion, Hannah Spencer now MP, at Glasto, in 2011:
"At home, a lot of girls dress the same way. It's boring. I pretty much dress like this all the time. People always get a shock when I turn up to their door to fix something. I work with lots of fortysomething men and they probably just think I'm a bit weird."
I am no different to every single person here in this constituency. I work hard. That’s what we do.
Except things have changed a lot over the last few decades. Because working hard used to get you something. It got you a house. A nice life. Holidays. It got you somewhere.
But now – working hard? What does that get you? Because talk to anyone here and they’ll tell you. The people who work hard but can’t put food on the table. Can’t get their kids school uniforms. Can’t put their heating on. Can’t live off the pension they worked hard to save for. Can’t even begin to dream about ever having a holiday. Ever. Because life has changed.
Well, she was able to cough up the £205 to go to Glastonbury.
I don't know who else on here goes to music festivals, but there are a lot of working class people at them, even posh ones like Glasto and Latitude, and at Download or Leeds probably form a majority.
£205 for a long weekend with unlimited entertainment is not bad value, comparable to a few away matches to follow a football team, which is unremarkeable working class entertainment for many.
The idea that the only authentic working class is neanderthal knuckledraggers is a pretty crude bit of political bubble prejudice. Even assuming that Spencer won Gorton comfortably she must have had 20-25% of the vote in Denton. Or are they disqualified from being working class automatically by voting Green, in a sort of "no true Scotsman" sort of paradox?
Why are you so desperate for her to be working class?
Why are you so desperate for her not to be?
In fact has Spencer actually claimed to be working class, or has she just described in non RP tones her life as a non-uni educated tradesperson living and working in the area she now represents.
I’m reminded of Andrew Neil’s desperation to prove that Mhairi Black was not working class Paisley, unlike himself as he ranted in orotund, well fed tones from his South of France villa.
I'm not desperate for her not to be, she just isn't. I don't know that she has claimed it for herself at all. She seems to be middle class men's idea of what it is to be working class, and a few of the posters on here really want her to be. But she isn't, and there is nothing wrong with that
Given we don't know the full situation of her up-bringing, I don't think we can give a clear view either way (whereas, we know that Keir Starmer's father was a toolmaker...).
Keir Starmer claims to be from a working class background, but I don't think anyone born in the 60s to parents with a private mortgage had a working class upbringing. Almost all working class people lived in social housing in those days
Maybe they did in London. Most of the people in my home town worked down the pit or in associated industries. There was very little social housing.
My dad was a bricklayer for the Coal Board. He had a mortgage from 1965. So did most of his workmates. And so did his Dad who worked underground.
In 1967 51% of people owned their property, 29% were in social housing and 20% rented privately, so I would say it was quite unusual for working class families to have mortgages. I would assume the majority of the 51% were not working class.
There would have probably been a bigger difference between the skilled and unskilled working class than between the skilled working class and the middle class.
The unskilled working class back then would not have owned their own homes and would have struggled financially. As they do now.
I don’t think that will be a horrifying shock for the Islamo-left that voted Green last week. They openly hate America, Israel, the West
Regrettably I think you're right.
As someone who is very pro-migration I am concerned that this is a dilemma I have no idea how we can address. The rise of Islamofascist politics in this country is not one I desire to see.
Most Muslims I think are normal, sensible people who will vote on principles they believe in, like TSE.
However the rise of Islamofascist sectarian voting is one of deep concern.
Sectarian voting was not healthy for Northern Ireland. It is not a future I would like to see for England.
It’s time you belatedly revised your blanket adoration of mass immigration. We are importing anti-Semitism, homophobia, deep misogyny, overseas hatreds, profound sectarianism, and much more. This is now obviously true
What can be a surprise to no one the Lib Dem’s come out in support of the Mullahs.
I guess there’s votes in opposing action against people who slaughtered 30,000 protesters. I’m guessing the Lib Dem’s only support protesters if they protest against Elbit Systems.
To be expected of a party that supports the equally vile WASPI women
‘ The UK can't be dragged into another protracted Middle Eastern war by a US President. Keir Starmer needs to rule out the use of UK bases for any future unilateral US strikes.’
I don’t think that will be a horrifying shock for the Islamo-left that voted Green last week. They openly hate America, Israel, the West
Indeed, hence SKS has had to be even more lawyerly than usual today, saying the UK was not involved in this operation by the US and Israel, he is concerned about international law, evacuating UK citizens from the region blah, blah, while still ideally wanting the Iranian regime gone
I don’t think that will be a horrifying shock for the Islamo-left that voted Green last week. They openly hate America, Israel, the West
Regrettably I think you're right.
As someone who is very pro-migration I am concerned that this is a dilemma I have no idea how we can address. The rise of Islamofascist politics in this country is not one I desire to see.
Most Muslims I think are normal, sensible people who will vote on principles they believe in, like TSE.
However the rise of Islamofascist sectarian voting is one of deep concern.
Sectarian voting was not healthy for Northern Ireland. It is not a future I would like to see for England.
It’s time you belatedly revised your blanket adoration of mass immigration. We are importing anti-Semitism, homophobia, deep misogyny, overseas hatreds, profound sectarianism, and much more. This is now obviously true
Yes but we are exporting that to the rest of the world as well. It all balances out.
For anyone not up with fashion, Hannah Spencer now MP, at Glasto, in 2011:
"At home, a lot of girls dress the same way. It's boring. I pretty much dress like this all the time. People always get a shock when I turn up to their door to fix something. I work with lots of fortysomething men and they probably just think I'm a bit weird."
I am no different to every single person here in this constituency. I work hard. That’s what we do.
Except things have changed a lot over the last few decades. Because working hard used to get you something. It got you a house. A nice life. Holidays. It got you somewhere.
But now – working hard? What does that get you? Because talk to anyone here and they’ll tell you. The people who work hard but can’t put food on the table. Can’t get their kids school uniforms. Can’t put their heating on. Can’t live off the pension they worked hard to save for. Can’t even begin to dream about ever having a holiday. Ever. Because life has changed.
Well, she was able to cough up the £205 to go to Glastonbury.
I don't know who else on here goes to music festivals, but there are a lot of working class people at them, even posh ones like Glasto and Latitude, and at Download or Leeds probably form a majority.
£205 for a long weekend with unlimited entertainment is not bad value, comparable to a few away matches to follow a football team, which is unremarkeable working class entertainment for many.
The idea that the only authentic working class is neanderthal knuckledraggers is a pretty crude bit of political bubble prejudice. Even assuming that Spencer won Gorton comfortably she must have had 20-25% of the vote in Denton. Or are they disqualified from being working class automatically by voting Green, in a sort of "no true Scotsman" sort of paradox?
Why are you so desperate for her to be working class?
Why are you so desperate for her not to be?
In fact has Spencer actually claimed to be working class, or has she just described in non RP tones her life as a non-uni educated tradesperson living and working in the area she now represents.
I’m reminded of Andrew Neil’s desperation to prove that Mhairi Black was not working class Paisley, unlike himself as he ranted in orotund, well fed tones from his South of France villa.
I'm not desperate for her not to be, she just isn't. I don't know that she has claimed it for herself at all. She seems to be middle class men's idea of what it is to be working class, and a few of the posters on here really want her to be. But she isn't, and there is nothing wrong with that
Given we don't know the full situation of her up-bringing, I don't think we can give a clear view either way (whereas, we know that Keir Starmer's father was a toolmaker...).
Keir Starmer claims to be from a working class background, but I don't think anyone born in the 60s to parents with a private mortgage had a working class upbringing. Almost all working class people lived in social housing in those days
Maybe they did in London. Most of the people in my home town worked down the pit or in associated industries. There was very little social housing.
My dad was a bricklayer for the Coal Board. He had a mortgage from 1965. So did most of his workmates. And so did his Dad who worked underground.
In 1967 51% of people owned their property, 29% were in social housing and 20% rented privately, so I would say it was quite unusual for working class families to have mortgages. I would assume the majority of the 51% were not working class.
There would have probably been a bigger difference between the skilled and unskilled working class than between the skilled working class and the middle class.
The unskilled working class back then would not have owned their own homes and would have struggled financially. As they do now.
On a wider issue I wonder how many people on sites such as PB had parents / grandparents / great grandparents who were skilled working class and made the move up the socioeconomic ladder.
It would explain nostalgia for the social mobility and rising living standards of previous generations.
For anyone not up with fashion, Hannah Spencer now MP, at Glasto, in 2011:
"At home, a lot of girls dress the same way. It's boring. I pretty much dress like this all the time. People always get a shock when I turn up to their door to fix something. I work with lots of fortysomething men and they probably just think I'm a bit weird."
I am no different to every single person here in this constituency. I work hard. That’s what we do.
Except things have changed a lot over the last few decades. Because working hard used to get you something. It got you a house. A nice life. Holidays. It got you somewhere.
But now – working hard? What does that get you? Because talk to anyone here and they’ll tell you. The people who work hard but can’t put food on the table. Can’t get their kids school uniforms. Can’t put their heating on. Can’t live off the pension they worked hard to save for. Can’t even begin to dream about ever having a holiday. Ever. Because life has changed.
Well, she was able to cough up the £205 to go to Glastonbury.
I don't know who else on here goes to music festivals, but there are a lot of working class people at them, even posh ones like Glasto and Latitude, and at Download or Leeds probably form a majority.
£205 for a long weekend with unlimited entertainment is not bad value, comparable to a few away matches to follow a football team, which is unremarkeable working class entertainment for many.
The idea that the only authentic working class is neanderthal knuckledraggers is a pretty crude bit of political bubble prejudice. Even assuming that Spencer won Gorton comfortably she must have had 20-25% of the vote in Denton. Or are they disqualified from being working class automatically by voting Green, in a sort of "no true Scotsman" sort of paradox?
Why are you so desperate for her to be working class?
Why are you so desperate for her not to be?
In fact has Spencer actually claimed to be working class, or has she just described in non RP tones her life as a non-uni educated tradesperson living and working in the area she now represents.
I’m reminded of Andrew Neil’s desperation to prove that Mhairi Black was not working class Paisley, unlike himself as he ranted in orotund, well fed tones from his South of France villa.
I'm not desperate for her not to be, she just isn't. I don't know that she has claimed it for herself at all. She seems to be middle class men's idea of what it is to be working class, and a few of the posters on here really want her to be. But she isn't, and there is nothing wrong with that
Given we don't know the full situation of her up-bringing, I don't think we can give a clear view either way (whereas, we know that Keir Starmer's father was a toolmaker...).
Keir Starmer claims to be from a working class background, but I don't think anyone born in the 60s to parents with a private mortgage had a working class upbringing. Almost all working class people lived in social housing in those days
Maybe they did in London. Most of the people in my home town worked down the pit or in associated industries. There was very little social housing.
My dad was a bricklayer for the Coal Board. He had a mortgage from 1965. So did most of his workmates. And so did his Dad who worked underground.
In 1967 51% of people owned their property, 29% were in social housing and 20% rented privately, so I would say it was quite unusual for working class families to have mortgages. I would assume the majority of the 51% were not working class.
There would have probably been a bigger difference between the skilled and unskilled working class than between the skilled working class and the middle class.
The unskilled working class back then would not have owned their own homes and would have struggled financially. As they do now.
The skilled working class only really started getting mortgages and owning their homes in large numbers with Thatcher's right to buy.
That was also the first big step in breaking down class based politics, before that middle class home owners and those with mortgages overwhelmingly voted Tory or Liberal and the working class overwhelmingly voted Labour
If FIFA did, for some reason, regularly give out a Peace Prize, you’d think #1 on the list of criteria for potential winners would be “do not start a war with another nation in the World Cup, directly before the start of the World Cup”
FIFA are a corrupt joke. Trump is a corrupt POTUS.
But the Iranian regime is infinitely worse.
Just because Trump is bad, is no reason to oppose the liberation of Iran. Your reflexive "anything Trump does is bad" attitude is drowning out all else.
How else should the Iranian people be freed, given that the regime is slaughtering protestors? Other than force, what alternative do you propose?
Should we all just sit back, watch the Iranians get slaughtered, watch Iran supply Russia with drones and tut and do jack shit?
Is Trump genuinely going for regime change or something altogether less satisfying?
It does seem that Trump is on board with any military action if someone explains to him that they stole the 2020 election. Perhaps Nigel should tell Trump Starmer and the Labour Party stole the election in 2020. Although Nigel doesn't seem as popular as Tiny Tom in Whitehouse circles these days.
I could not care less about Trump's motivations or what he is going for, I care about results.
If we see the liberation of Iran, then great.
Anything short of regime change, is a miserable failure.
The UK should be using our full military power and diplomatic power to push for regime change, explicitly, too. Instead we're just bystanders. Pathetic.
Like we did in Iraq? Against the sage advice of Lib Dems and most Tories.
Although this time around Kemi is coming across as the great Churchillian war hero to Starmer's Chamberlain. Only time will tell.
Israel assesses the assassination was successful; the likelihood that Supreme Leader of Iran Ali Khamenei survived the Israeli strike is slim to none - N12
If that is true then hopefully others in this obnoxious regime will also have been eliminated
Prayers for the people of Iran who should have total support to regain their country and make it a democracy
Trump is Trump, he will do what he wants. We should do nothing to assist him.
Israel is Israel, a Country that under the present regime commits mass murder. We should do nothing to assist them.
We should protect our interests our people our bases defensively.
Contrary to the war mongering zionist lap dogs Farage and Badenoch we should not get involved in any action involving Israel.
There is a NATO caveat with the US which complicates matters but should be subject to the decision of All NATO members
Israel is like Iran a rogue State if Iran and Israel bomb the feck out of each other, we must not intervene. The world would be a better place without both regimes.
The actions of the US and Israel breach international law, we must abide by international law
The Commons must agree any action by majority vote unless there is an imminent risk to British forces.
Despite being an obvious Labour insider, you still think this government has any will to act differently from what the US commands?
Last week I'd have said no to that question.
Now that the zionist cabal inside Labour is considerably weaker, I hope that Starmer will defend UK interest NO more than that.
I am not a Labour insider, I wish I was.
Iran under current governance is evil Israel under current governance is as evil. The US is led by a nutter.
I'd have nothing to do with any of them apart from protection of our immediate interest.
Personally I cannot differentiate under current governance between Israel and Iran in depravity.
If each of them took each others leaders out and bought a our regime change on each Country it would be a day for great celebration. The more civilised civilians on both Countries safe and protected the better.
'Personally I cannot differentiate under current governance between Israel and Iran in depravity.' So murdering in cold blood up to 100,000 of your own citizens because they want to live in a democracy just doesn't tip the scales for you?
For anyone not up with fashion, Hannah Spencer now MP, at Glasto, in 2011:
"At home, a lot of girls dress the same way. It's boring. I pretty much dress like this all the time. People always get a shock when I turn up to their door to fix something. I work with lots of fortysomething men and they probably just think I'm a bit weird."
I am no different to every single person here in this constituency. I work hard. That’s what we do.
Except things have changed a lot over the last few decades. Because working hard used to get you something. It got you a house. A nice life. Holidays. It got you somewhere.
But now – working hard? What does that get you? Because talk to anyone here and they’ll tell you. The people who work hard but can’t put food on the table. Can’t get their kids school uniforms. Can’t put their heating on. Can’t live off the pension they worked hard to save for. Can’t even begin to dream about ever having a holiday. Ever. Because life has changed.
Well, she was able to cough up the £205 to go to Glastonbury.
I don't know who else on here goes to music festivals, but there are a lot of working class people at them, even posh ones like Glasto and Latitude, and at Download or Leeds probably form a majority.
£205 for a long weekend with unlimited entertainment is not bad value, comparable to a few away matches to follow a football team, which is unremarkeable working class entertainment for many.
The idea that the only authentic working class is neanderthal knuckledraggers is a pretty crude bit of political bubble prejudice. Even assuming that Spencer won Gorton comfortably she must have had 20-25% of the vote in Denton. Or are they disqualified from being working class automatically by voting Green, in a sort of "no true Scotsman" sort of paradox?
Why are you so desperate for her to be working class?
Why are you so desperate for her not to be?
In fact has Spencer actually claimed to be working class, or has she just described in non RP tones her life as a non-uni educated tradesperson living and working in the area she now represents.
I’m reminded of Andrew Neil’s desperation to prove that Mhairi Black was not working class Paisley, unlike himself as he ranted in orotund, well fed tones from his South of France villa.
I'm not desperate for her not to be, she just isn't. I don't know that she has claimed it for herself at all. She seems to be middle class men's idea of what it is to be working class, and a few of the posters on here really want her to be. But she isn't, and there is nothing wrong with that
Given we don't know the full situation of her up-bringing, I don't think we can give a clear view either way (whereas, we know that Keir Starmer's father was a toolmaker...).
Keir Starmer claims to be from a working class background, but I don't think anyone born in the 60s to parents with a private mortgage had a working class upbringing. Almost all working class people lived in social housing in those days
Maybe they did in London. Most of the people in my home town worked down the pit or in associated industries. There was very little social housing.
My dad was a bricklayer for the Coal Board. He had a mortgage from 1965. So did most of his workmates. And so did his Dad who worked underground.
In 1967 51% of people owned their property, 29% were in social housing and 20% rented privately, so I would say it was quite unusual for working class families to have mortgages. I would assume the majority of the 51% were not working class.
There would have probably been a bigger difference between the skilled and unskilled working class than between the skilled working class and the middle class.
The unskilled working class back then would not have owned their own homes and would have struggled financially. As they do now.
The skilled working class only really started getting mortgages and owning their homes in large numbers with Thatcher's right to buy.
That was also the first big step in breaking down class based politics, before that middle class home owners and those with mortgages overwhelmingly voted Tory or Liberal and the working class overwhelmingly voted Labour
Nah. Class based politics was in decline in the Sixties.
I don’t think that will be a horrifying shock for the Islamo-left that voted Green last week. They openly hate America, Israel, the West
Regrettably I think you're right.
As someone who is very pro-migration I am concerned that this is a dilemma I have no idea how we can address. The rise of Islamofascist politics in this country is not one I desire to see.
Most Muslims I think are normal, sensible people who will vote on principles they believe in, like TSE.
However the rise of Islamofascist sectarian voting is one of deep concern.
Sectarian voting was not healthy for Northern Ireland. It is not a future I would like to see for England.
It’s time you belatedly revised your blanket adoration of mass immigration. We are importing anti-Semitism, homophobia, deep misogyny, overseas hatreds, profound sectarianism, and much more. This is now obviously true
Sounds like they might make good Spectator journalists?
If FIFA did, for some reason, regularly give out a Peace Prize, you’d think #1 on the list of criteria for potential winners would be “do not start a war with another nation in the World Cup, directly before the start of the World Cup”
FIFA are a corrupt joke. Trump is a corrupt POTUS.
But the Iranian regime is infinitely worse.
Just because Trump is bad, is no reason to oppose the liberation of Iran. Your reflexive "anything Trump does is bad" attitude is drowning out all else.
How else should the Iranian people be freed, given that the regime is slaughtering protestors? Other than force, what alternative do you propose?
Should we all just sit back, watch the Iranians get slaughtered, watch Iran supply Russia with drones and tut and do jack shit?
Is Trump genuinely going for regime change or something altogether less satisfying?
It does seem that Trump is on board with any military action if someone explains to him that they stole the 2020 election. Perhaps Nigel should tell Trump Starmer and the Labour Party stole the election in 2020. Although Nigel doesn't seem as popular as Tiny Tom in Whitehouse circles these days.
I could not care less about Trump's motivations or what he is going for, I care about results.
If we see the liberation of Iran, then great.
Anything short of regime change, is a miserable failure.
The UK should be using our full military power and diplomatic power to push for regime change, explicitly, too. Instead we're just bystanders. Pathetic.
Like we did in Iraq? Against the sage advice of Lib Dems and most Tories.
Although this time around Kemi is coming across as the great Churchillian war hero to Starmer's Chamberlain. Only time will tell.
Iraq was a success, Hussein was eliminated.
Do that again and mission accomplished. This regime needs to go.
I will take the same success we had in Iraq when it comes to Iran, yes. Ideally better, but if "all" we get is the same that would be a fantastic improvement over the status quo.
I don’t think that will be a horrifying shock for the Islamo-left that voted Green last week. They openly hate America, Israel, the West
Indeed, hence SKS has had to be even more lawyerly than usual today, saying the UK was not involved in this operation by the US and Israel, he is concerned about international law, evacuating UK citizens from the region blah, blah, while still ideally wanting the Iranian regime gone
Is regime change going to happen? I hope so, but I am not convinced yet.
Trump is Trump, he will do what he wants. We should do nothing to assist him.
Israel is Israel, a Country that under the present regime commits mass murder. We should do nothing to assist them.
We should protect our interests our people our bases defensively.
Contrary to the war mongering zionist lap dogs Farage and Badenoch we should not get involved in any action involving Israel.
There is a NATO caveat with the US which complicates matters but should be subject to the decision of All NATO members
Israel is like Iran a rogue State if Iran and Israel bomb the feck out of each other, we must not intervene. The world would be a better place without both regimes.
The actions of the US and Israel breach international law, we must abide by international law
The Commons must agree any action by majority vote unless there is an imminent risk to British forces.
Despite being an obvious Labour insider, you still think this government has any will to act differently from what the US commands?
Last week I'd have said no to that question.
Now that the zionist cabal inside Labour is considerably weaker, I hope that Starmer will defend UK interest NO more than that.
I am not a Labour insider, I wish I was.
Iran under current governance is evil Israel under current governance is as evil. The US is led by a nutter.
I'd have nothing to do with any of them apart from protection of our immediate interest.
Personally I cannot differentiate under current governance between Israel and Iran in depravity.
If each of them took each others leaders out and bought a our regime change on each Country it would be a day for great celebration. The more civilised civilians on both Countries safe and protected the better.
'Personally I cannot differentiate under current governance between Israel and Iran in depravity.' So murdering in cold blood up to 100,000 of your own citizens because they want to live in a democracy just doesn't tip the scales for you?
It's all relative.
It's not about numvers
1 is too many
100 each is too many
It's not a fucking football match
Both are contemptuos barbarians and should be treated as such.
Israel assesses the assassination was successful; the likelihood that Supreme Leader of Iran Ali Khamenei survived the Israeli strike is slim to none - N12
If that is true then hopefully others in this obnoxious regime will also have been eliminated
Prayers for the people of Iran who should have total support to regain their country and make it a democracy
Total support they aren't going to get though. You need troops in situ for that. And that won't happen.
If FIFA did, for some reason, regularly give out a Peace Prize, you’d think #1 on the list of criteria for potential winners would be “do not start a war with another nation in the World Cup, directly before the start of the World Cup”
FIFA are a corrupt joke. Trump is a corrupt POTUS.
But the Iranian regime is infinitely worse.
Just because Trump is bad, is no reason to oppose the liberation of Iran. Your reflexive "anything Trump does is bad" attitude is drowning out all else.
How else should the Iranian people be freed, given that the regime is slaughtering protestors? Other than force, what alternative do you propose?
Should we all just sit back, watch the Iranians get slaughtered, watch Iran supply Russia with drones and tut and do jack shit?
Is Trump genuinely going for regime change or something altogether less satisfying?
It does seem that Trump is on board with any military action if someone explains to him that they stole the 2020 election. Perhaps Nigel should tell Trump Starmer and the Labour Party stole the election in 2020. Although Nigel doesn't seem as popular as Tiny Tom in Whitehouse circles these days.
I could not care less about Trump's motivations or what he is going for, I care about results.
If we see the liberation of Iran, then great.
Anything short of regime change, is a miserable failure.
The UK should be using our full military power and diplomatic power to push for regime change, explicitly, too. Instead we're just bystanders. Pathetic.
Like we did in Iraq? Against the sage advice of Lib Dems and most Tories.
Although this time around Kemi is coming across as the great Churchillian war hero to Starmer's Chamberlain. Only time will tell.
What I cannot understand with Starmer is why he has to involve Macron and Mertz before stating hls position
Carney has confirmed Canada's support as has Australia
I don’t think that will be a horrifying shock for the Islamo-left that voted Green last week. They openly hate America, Israel, the West
Regrettably I think you're right.
As someone who is very pro-migration I am concerned that this is a dilemma I have no idea how we can address. The rise of Islamofascist politics in this country is not one I desire to see.
Most Muslims I think are normal, sensible people who will vote on principles they believe in, like TSE.
However the rise of Islamofascist sectarian voting is one of deep concern.
Sectarian voting was not healthy for Northern Ireland. It is not a future I would like to see for England.
It’s time you belatedly revised your blanket adoration of mass immigration. We are importing anti-Semitism, homophobia, deep misogyny, overseas hatreds, profound sectarianism, and much more. This is now obviously true
Sounds like they might make good Spectator journalists?
Israel assesses the assassination was successful; the likelihood that Supreme Leader of Iran Ali Khamenei survived the Israeli strike is slim to none - N12
If that is true then hopefully others in this obnoxious regime will also have been eliminated
Prayers for the people of Iran who should have total support to regain their country and make it a democracy
Total support they aren't going to get though. You need troops in situ for that. And that won't happen.
It should.
Though it may not be needed. We only needed bombs to help the locals overthrow Ghaddafi.
I don’t think that will be a horrifying shock for the Islamo-left that voted Green last week. They openly hate America, Israel, the West
Indeed, hence SKS has had to be even more lawyerly than usual today, saying the UK was not involved in this operation by the US and Israel, he is concerned about international law, evacuating UK citizens from the region blah, blah, while still ideally wanting the Iranian regime gone
Is regime change going to happen? I hope so, but I am not convinced yet.
Another FIFA peace prize I suspect is in the mix.
'Is regime change going to happen? I hope so, but I am not convinced yet.' Pretty much our decisive PM's position this morning!!
If FIFA did, for some reason, regularly give out a Peace Prize, you’d think #1 on the list of criteria for potential winners would be “do not start a war with another nation in the World Cup, directly before the start of the World Cup”
FIFA are a corrupt joke. Trump is a corrupt POTUS.
But the Iranian regime is infinitely worse.
Just because Trump is bad, is no reason to oppose the liberation of Iran. Your reflexive "anything Trump does is bad" attitude is drowning out all else.
How else should the Iranian people be freed, given that the regime is slaughtering protestors? Other than force, what alternative do you propose?
Should we all just sit back, watch the Iranians get slaughtered, watch Iran supply Russia with drones and tut and do jack shit?
Is Trump genuinely going for regime change or something altogether less satisfying?
It does seem that Trump is on board with any military action if someone explains to him that they stole the 2020 election. Perhaps Nigel should tell Trump Starmer and the Labour Party stole the election in 2020. Although Nigel doesn't seem as popular as Tiny Tom in Whitehouse circles these days.
I could not care less about Trump's motivations or what he is going for, I care about results.
If we see the liberation of Iran, then great.
Anything short of regime change, is a miserable failure.
The UK should be using our full military power and diplomatic power to push for regime change, explicitly, too. Instead we're just bystanders. Pathetic.
Like we did in Iraq? Against the sage advice of Lib Dems and most Tories.
Although this time around Kemi is coming across as the great Churchillian war hero to Starmer's Chamberlain. Only time will tell.
Iraq was a success, Hussein was eliminated.
Do that again and mission accomplished. This regime needs to go.
I will take the same success we had in Iraq when it comes to Iran, yes. Ideally better, but if "all" we get is the same that would be a fantastic improvement over the status quo.
If this escapade has Iraq as it's blueprint thank Allah Starmer is keeping his distance. On no metric was Iraq anything other than a disgraceful disaster.
If FIFA did, for some reason, regularly give out a Peace Prize, you’d think #1 on the list of criteria for potential winners would be “do not start a war with another nation in the World Cup, directly before the start of the World Cup”
FIFA are a corrupt joke. Trump is a corrupt POTUS.
But the Iranian regime is infinitely worse.
Just because Trump is bad, is no reason to oppose the liberation of Iran. Your reflexive "anything Trump does is bad" attitude is drowning out all else.
How else should the Iranian people be freed, given that the regime is slaughtering protestors? Other than force, what alternative do you propose?
Should we all just sit back, watch the Iranians get slaughtered, watch Iran supply Russia with drones and tut and do jack shit?
Is Trump genuinely going for regime change or something altogether less satisfying?
It does seem that Trump is on board with any military action if someone explains to him that they stole the 2020 election. Perhaps Nigel should tell Trump Starmer and the Labour Party stole the election in 2020. Although Nigel doesn't seem as popular as Tiny Tom in Whitehouse circles these days.
I could not care less about Trump's motivations or what he is going for, I care about results.
If we see the liberation of Iran, then great.
Anything short of regime change, is a miserable failure.
The UK should be using our full military power and diplomatic power to push for regime change, explicitly, too. Instead we're just bystanders. Pathetic.
Like we did in Iraq? Against the sage advice of Lib Dems and most Tories.
Although this time around Kemi is coming across as the great Churchillian war hero to Starmer's Chamberlain. Only time will tell.
Iraq was a success, Hussein was eliminated.
Do that again and mission accomplished. This regime needs to go.
I will take the same success we had in Iraq when it comes to Iran, yes. Ideally better, but if "all" we get is the same that would be a fantastic improvement over the status quo.
If this escapade has Iraq as it's blueprint thank Allah Starmer is keeping his distance. On no metric was Iraq anything other than a disgraceful disaster.
"Was Hussein eliminated" - try that metric.
"Is the current regime an improvement on Hussein's" - try that one too.
Comments
New: The US has planned an escalating series of strikes with off-ramps along the way, according to a senior US official. Each round will be over a one to two-day period with pauses to reset and assess battle damage. #Iran
https://x.com/jimsciutto/status/2027732206936891663?s=20
How the fuck are they gonna do that? All Russian and Ukrainian airspace has been shut for years
Now all of the Middle East?!
Leeds Pub: can we sell a pint for 25p?
Leeds City Council: it's a free city go for it.
UK government: hold on, hold on, hold on, regs regs regs, you can't sell below cost price according to our regs.
Leeds Pub and Council and Leeds Lawyer: we won't "sell" it then. It'll be free.
https://x.com/thomasforth/status/2027699797608558632
And so did his Dad who worked underground.
I have no doubt we'll find out over the next few days anyway.
It does seem that Trump is on board with any military action if someone explains to him that they stole the 2020 election. Perhaps Nigel should tell Trump Starmer and the Labour Party stole the election in 2020. Although Nigel doesn't seem as popular as Tiny Tom in Whitehouse circles these days.
"Caspar San Giorgio", of no fixed address.
Something doesn't ring true there. If it was someone homeless, was there payment involved?
Israel is Israel, a Country that under the present regime commits mass murder. We should do nothing to assist them.
We should protect our interests our people our bases defensively.
Contrary to the war mongering zionist lap dogs Farage and Badenoch we should not get involved in any action involving Israel.
There is a NATO caveat with the US which complicates matters but should be subject to the decision of All NATO members
Israel is like Iran a rogue State if Iran and Israel bomb the feck out of each other, we must not intervene. The world would be a better place without both regimes.
The actions of the US and Israel breach international law, we must abide by international law
The Commons must agree any action by majority vote unless there is an imminent risk to British forces.
BREAKING: The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia states they will join the US in operation against the Islamic Republic Regime after the IRI attacks US base in Saudi Arabia.
https://x.com/EllieCohanim/status/2027708488873398610?s=20
It’s either be a huge diversion South almost to the Equator, then up through Africa, or you’ll head East and do a round-the-world trip back over Canada.
If we see the liberation of Iran, then great.
Anything short of regime change, is a miserable failure.
The UK should be using our full military power and diplomatic power to push for regime change, explicitly, too. Instead we're just bystanders. Pathetic.
When I worked on the 2011 census I noticed that Bolsover still had a lot of social housing and that was related to a big increase in central heating compared with 2001 (a lot including my grandfather still used coal until not that long ago).
Any "law" that does exist that says we should stand back, watch people get slaughtered, and do nothing is not just useless but an ass and should be abolished.
https://www.flightpaths.com/LHR-PVG
Great little Irish pub, racing and cricket on the TVs, friendly staff, an Irish band playing this evening, and plenty of the black stuff. Highly recommended!
War, what war?
Wigan was mostly Victorian. Mining peaked there in c.1900? So before extensive social housing. Meaning housing was cheap. I believe my parents bought a terrace for £850 in the mid sixties.
There was a large sixties Council Estate but that was predominantly for Liverpool slum clearance overspill.
https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:56.4/centery:26.1/zoom:9 <<<—— this site is a marine equivalent to FlightRadar24, tracks ships using transponder signals.
The guy needs to go, now.
Develop some balls Labour MPs, you useless shower.
working class plastererPlastine Action / XR / JSO / Youth Demand activist....https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/insight/how-english-housing-has-changed-over-the-past-50-years-53294
The government wrote new laws, pretty much over a weekend, to prevent selling petrol or diesel at a loss. Because of the tax implications.
This is an illegal, unprovoked and brutal attack that shows once again that the USA and Israel are rogue states.
The UK must end our cosy relationship with the USA and our ongoing support for Israel.
Now that the zionist cabal inside Labour is considerably weaker, I hope that Starmer will defend UK interest NO more than that.
I am not a Labour insider, I wish I was.
Iran under current governance is evil
Israel under current governance is as evil.
The US is led by a nutter.
I'd have nothing to do with any of them apart from protection of our immediate interest.
Personally I cannot differentiate under current governance between Israel and Iran in depravity.
If each of them took each others leaders out and bought a our regime change on each Country it would be a day for great celebration. The more civilised civilians on both Countries safe and protected the better.
Say it ain’t so.
* https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/total-gdp-in-the-uk-since-1270
Edit: so the nerd in me went and looked it up. Today’s Flight, BA168, has been threading a path through the Stans and is currently South of Ukraine and North of Turkey in the Black Sea. It’s a 13 hour flight, and today’s equipment is a 777-200ER. It’ll be pretty much at the limit of its endurance, so yes it would have to stop for fuel if they went the other way around or diverted much from the intended route.
In the past they have resisted closure for fear of being attacked but I assume that is no longer a concern.
Hence the unusual timing. It was all aimed at a specific meeting in Tehran
🤷🏼♂️🤷🏼♂️🤷🏼♂️
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habshan–Fujairah_oil_pipeline
Well done voters of Gorton and Denton. This is your preferred choice for PM
‘ This is an illegal, unprovoked and brutal attack that shows once again that the USA and Israel are rogue states.
The UK must end our cosy relationship with the USA and our ongoing support for Israel.’
https://x.com/zackpolanski/status/2027733979797799396?s=61
Saudi for Bahrain and Qatar
Saudi or Oman for the UAE
Saudi, Syria or Turkey for Iraq.
I am not aware of any of them having made such arrangements
I wish Starmer would have the balls to say the same thing.
The key missing though is that Iran too is a rogue state.
Under current governance all 3 are.
The comments of Farage Badenoch and surprise surprise Pritti the MP for Tel Aviv prove conclusively that these Zionist puppets must never again be allowed to govern the UK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirkuk–Ceyhan_Oil_Pipeline
Israel assesses the assassination was successful; the likelihood that Supreme Leader of Iran Ali Khamenei survived the Israeli strike is slim to none - N12
https://x.com/flightradar24/status/2027735325544444252
These are all from the US to Dubai
EK216 diverting to Rome
EK226 diverting to Munich
EK230 diverting to Warsaw
EK202 diverting to Vienna
EK236 diverting to Budapest
EK212 diverting to Prague
This follows “Zionist cabal” and “Zionist clique” in recent days. And apparently infesting multiple parties
So you’re an open anti-Semite. Good to have that settled
As someone who is very pro-migration I am concerned that this is a dilemma I have no idea how we can address. The rise of Islamofascist politics in this country is not one I desire to see.
Most Muslims I think are normal, sensible people who will vote on principles they believe in, like TSE.
However the rise of Islamofascist sectarian voting is one of deep concern.
Sectarian voting was not healthy for Northern Ireland. It is not a future I would like to see for England.
Oh, sorry, weren't you referring to the Americans?
It will be interesting if a major reputable pollster does a Poll
I'd expect 80% in favour of not getting involved.
But he probably already had them in the bag
The unskilled working class back then would not have owned their own homes and would have struggled financially. As they do now.
People shouldn’t hate on countries because they’re currently run by lunatics .
'Support the action but stay out' vs
'Cosying up to the Mullahs'
Are very different things
I guess there’s votes in opposing action against people who slaughtered 30,000 protesters. I’m guessing the Lib Dem’s only support protesters if they protest against Elbit Systems.
To be expected of a party that supports the equally vile WASPI women
‘ The UK can't be dragged into another protracted Middle Eastern war by a US President. Keir Starmer needs to rule out the use of UK bases for any future unilateral US strikes.’
https://x.com/edwardjdavey/status/2027722193933656248?s=61
It would explain nostalgia for the social mobility and rising living standards of previous generations.
That was also the first big step in breaking down class based politics, before that middle class home owners and those with mortgages overwhelmingly voted Tory or Liberal and the working class overwhelmingly voted Labour
Although this time around Kemi is coming across as the great Churchillian war hero to Starmer's Chamberlain. Only time will tell.
Prayers for the people of Iran who should have total support to regain their country and make it a democracy
Do that again and mission accomplished. This regime needs to go.
I will take the same success we had in Iraq when it comes to Iran, yes. Ideally better, but if "all" we get is the same that would be a fantastic improvement over the status quo.
Another FIFA peace prize I suspect is in the mix.
It's not about numvers
1 is too many
100 each is too many
It's not a fucking football match
Both are contemptuos barbarians and should be treated as such.
You need troops in situ for that. And that won't happen.
The problem is there are many suitable replacements for him just as evil .
Carney has confirmed Canada's support as has Australia
Though it may not be needed. We only needed bombs to help the locals overthrow Ghaddafi.
"Is the current regime an improvement on Hussein's" - try that one too.