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The public strongly support Starmer on Iran – politicalbetting.com

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  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,779
    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Nigelb said:

    I am in awe at the courage of those Iranian students.

    The medical too, from my family's Iranian heritage friends, they are killing the doctors/nurses/pharmacists who are treating the wounded.
    Despicable.
    They are utterly evil

    Iran authorities demanding large sums for return of protesters' bodies, BBC told

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g5md1n1yxo

    Family of Iranian protester forced to 'pay for the bullet that killed their son'

    https://news.sky.com/story/family-of-iranian-protester-forced-to-pay-for-the-bullet-that-killed-their-son-13508060
    And there is a wave of executions following sham trials now going on.

    Trump has once already encouraged continuing protests with the promise of intervention, and not followed through.

    Will this time be different ?
    Military guy in Telegraph wrote yesterday that the 2nd aircraft carrier doesn't arrive in Eastern Med until Tuesday.

    After that - anything could kick off.

    Anything except a land invasion, which is the only thing that would work, at least in the short term.

    Just throwing a few bombs and missiles into Iran would be very unlikely to get regime change - it would probably just get the Ayatollahs to crack down even harder. Regime change in a country of 25 million in 2003 took a year's preparation and half a million ground troops. This time there are only two carrier battle groups - more than enough firepower for some punitive airstrikes, but nothing like enough to invade a country, let alone occupy it.

    So I see this more as a distraction from the Epstein files than an attempt to do anything meaningful there. Of course it's possible that the Iranian regime is so weak that the opposition will be encouraged sufficiently to overthrow it. I doubt that's the case, based on what we've seen over the last couple of months, but of course I've no more information than anyone else on this.
    The last land invasion of Iran, by the Iraqis ended in a stalemate. Neither side made much difference to the other; neither regime changed, just a lot or ordinary people died.
    True but I don't think the Iraqi army of 1980 is analagous to the American army of 2026 - if America invaded in serious force it would undoubtedly overthrow the Iranian regime very quickly.

    But then of course it would face the insoluble problems of governing a huge and hostile country of 90 million people teeming with religious fanatics and other madmen. A rule of thumb I've heard is you need one soldier for every 20 inhabitants to occupy a country. So the Americans would need 4.5 million troops, or around ten times their current active duty army, just to occupy Iran.

    I know Trump never thinks things through, but even the Epstein files can't really be that bad for him, can they?
    Indeed; don't disagree with much df that. The only thing I'd add is that nothing unites a country more than being attacked. Many Iranians may not be keen supporters of the ayatollahs but I suggest that given the choice between them and a Christian (or allegedly Christian) invasion force it would be the ayatollahs every time. In many cases anyway. It would be Afghanistan all over again, without British and European assistance.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,696

    Dura_Ace said:

    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Nigelb said:

    I am in awe at the courage of those Iranian students.

    The medical too, from my family's Iranian heritage friends, they are killing the doctors/nurses/pharmacists who are treating the wounded.
    Despicable.
    They are utterly evil

    Iran authorities demanding large sums for return of protesters' bodies, BBC told

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g5md1n1yxo

    Family of Iranian protester forced to 'pay for the bullet that killed their son'

    https://news.sky.com/story/family-of-iranian-protester-forced-to-pay-for-the-bullet-that-killed-their-son-13508060
    And there is a wave of executions following sham trials now going on.

    Trump has once already encouraged continuing protests with the promise of intervention, and not followed through.

    Will this time be different ?
    Military guy in Telegraph wrote yesterday that the 2nd aircraft carrier doesn't arrive in Eastern Med until Tuesday.

    After that - anything could kick off.

    Anything except a land invasion, which is the only thing that would work, at least in the short term.

    Just throwing a few bombs and missiles into Iran would be very unlikely to get regime change - it would probably just get the Ayatollahs to crack down even harder. Regime change in a country of 25 million in 2003 took a year's preparation and half a million ground troops. This time there are only two carrier battle groups - more than enough firepower for some punitive airstrikes, but nothing like enough to invade a country, let alone occupy it.

    So I see this more as a distraction from the Epstein files than an attempt to do anything meaningful there. Of course it's possible that the Iranian regime is so weak that the opposition will be encouraged sufficiently to overthrow it. I doubt that's the case, based on what we've seen over the last couple of months, but of course I've no more information than anyone else on this.
    The last land invasion of Iran, by the Iraqis ended in a stalemate. Neither side made much difference to the other; neither regime changed, just a lot or ordinary people died.
    True but I don't think the Iraqi army of 1980 is analagous to the American army of 2026 - if America invaded in serious force it would undoubtedly overthrow the Iranian regime very quickly.

    Invade how? It's 700km from the Gulf to Tehran with several inconvenient mountain ranges in the way.
    Indeed. Its an even more difficult Afghanistan
    Provoking an overthrow and putting in the puppet shah is the plan, surely
    And his dog.

    https://x.com/Soureh_design2/status/2024967394628706399?s=20
  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,215

    a

    carnforth said:

    Nigelb said:

    The other factor which is insufficiently discussed is Trump's mental deterioration.
    It's increasingly unlikely that he's able to make even vaguely rational decisions (and pace william, "Trump's instincts" are almost entirely malign).

    I would dispute that. Look at the way he spoke with great humanity about the victims of the Iraq war back in 2007:

    https://x.com/mazemoore/status/1750020277210169760
    Was it The Apprentice that made him jump the shark?

    I don't doubt he's always been unethical/highly questionable, but he's got much worse over the last 15+ years.
    The birther stuff was the first public spasm of Modern Trump, unless someone knows better?
    1989

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Park_jogger_case#Media_coverage
    Racism in his management of apartment buildings in New York was very apparent, IIRC, right from the start of his taking over the family business.

    He was paying off Jesse Jackson via PUSH, to try and ameliorate the damage court cases were doing, IIRC.
    Fred and Donald Trump were sued in 1973 by the DOJ for discrimination against black people in housing rental. They agreed a Consent Decree in 1975, then were sued again in 1978 for breaking it.

    eg https://www.politico.com/blogs/under-the-radar/2017/02/trump-fbi-files-discrimination-case-235067
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 35,225

    Brixian59 said:

    Whilst I don't see Bridget Phillipson as a Leadership Candidate, and I believe she was wrong to let herself be used as a pawn by McSweeney in the Deputy Leadership contest, as an Education Secretary she is increasingly impressive.

    The SEND issue is a minefield of malpractice, bad proceeds delay, angst and frustration and a huge cost to the Exchequer.

    It would appear that her detailed proposals to be announced tomorrow will be a considered attempt to move the matter forwards, better for the majority of parents and children and for schools.

    No doubt some will be loud opponents as is always the case, but hopefully all but the mad left of Labour, and the sensible majority of others will support it.

    A big test for Tories and Reform who appear to have no coherent plans and for the Tories whose whole education policy seemed to be run by the crazed nutcase Babslsingh an area where they have zero credibility.


    I’m wary of speaking too much on send but I worry that we have an epidemic of children that somehow need extra Bath Uni a quarter of the new intake had a statement of some issue or another. Often it’s anxiety, or related. Many claim extra time in exams. How much is genuine and how much is gaming the system? Do we no longer accept that some kids will be better academically than others?
    Good points and my core belief is this is quite probably spurious and due to medicalisation of natural differences along with incentives for diagnosis, but what does give me pause for thought is we are seeing other changes unrelated to education, for instance rocketing bowel cancer rates in under-50s, or disruptive passengers on airliners, to take just two examples.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,508

    Nigelb said:

    The other factor which is insufficiently discussed is Trump's mental deterioration.
    It's increasingly unlikely that he's able to make even vaguely rational decisions (and pace william, "Trump's instincts" are almost entirely malign).

    I would dispute that. Look at the way he spoke with great humanity about the victims of the Iraq war back in 2007:

    https://x.com/mazemoore/status/1750020277210169760
    Bit of an ‘I’ve had to go back 19 years to find signs of humanity’ vibe.
    Especially ironic in a retort to "Trump's mental deterioration".

    He hasn't deteriorated, see 19 years ago he could speak well.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,913
    MattW said:

    a

    carnforth said:

    Nigelb said:

    The other factor which is insufficiently discussed is Trump's mental deterioration.
    It's increasingly unlikely that he's able to make even vaguely rational decisions (and pace william, "Trump's instincts" are almost entirely malign).

    I would dispute that. Look at the way he spoke with great humanity about the victims of the Iraq war back in 2007:

    https://x.com/mazemoore/status/1750020277210169760
    Was it The Apprentice that made him jump the shark?

    I don't doubt he's always been unethical/highly questionable, but he's got much worse over the last 15+ years.
    The birther stuff was the first public spasm of Modern Trump, unless someone knows better?
    1989

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Park_jogger_case#Media_coverage
    Racism in his management of apartment buildings in New York was very apparent, IIRC, right from the start of his taking over the family business.

    He was paying off Jesse Jackson via PUSH, to try and ameliorate the damage court cases were doing, IIRC.
    Fred and Donald Trump were sued in 1973 by the DOJ for discrimination against black people in housing rental. They agreed a Consent Decree in 1975, then were sued again in 1978 for breaking it.

    eg https://www.politico.com/blogs/under-the-radar/2017/02/trump-fbi-files-discrimination-case-235067
    Yup - that was the stuff I was thinking of.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 15,427
    HYUFD said:

    Pakistan strikes militants in Afghanistan

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdxgln3gnd6o

    Are we back to the cricket?

    I don't think this match is over yet. The pitch isn't so easy.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,834

    carnforth said:

    Nigelb said:

    The other factor which is insufficiently discussed is Trump's mental deterioration.
    It's increasingly unlikely that he's able to make even vaguely rational decisions (and pace william, "Trump's instincts" are almost entirely malign).

    I would dispute that. Look at the way he spoke with great humanity about the victims of the Iraq war back in 2007:

    https://x.com/mazemoore/status/1750020277210169760
    Was it The Apprentice that made him jump the shark?

    I don't doubt he's always been unethical/highly questionable, but he's got much worse over the last 15+ years.
    The birther stuff was the first public spasm of Modern Trump, unless someone knows better?
    1989

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Park_jogger_case#Media_coverage
    Trump has always been a pig ignorant rabble rousing racist prick, as has always been apparent to anybody paying attention.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,779

    HYUFD said:

    Pakistan strikes militants in Afghanistan

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdxgln3gnd6o

    Are we back to the cricket?

    I don't think this match is over yet. The pitch isn't so easy.
    20-3. It's the hope that kills you!

    Although, as my wife always says, this is cricket!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 34,110
    Brixian59 said:

    Whilst I don't see Bridget Phillipson as a Leadership Candidate, and I believe she was wrong to let herself be used as a pawn by McSweeney in the Deputy Leadership contest, as an Education Secretary she is increasingly impressive.

    The SEND issue is a minefield of malpractice, bad proceeds delay, angst and frustration and a huge cost to the Exchequer.

    It would appear that her detailed proposals to be announced tomorrow will be a considered attempt to move the matter forwards, better for the majority of parents and children and for schools.

    No doubt some will be loud opponents as is always the case, but hopefully all but the mad left of Labour, and the sensible majority of others will support it.

    A big test for Tories and Reform who appear to have no coherent plans and for the Tories whose whole education policy seemed to be run by the crazed nutcase Babslsingh an area where they have zero credibility.

    Why is it always the wet side of the Tory Party that does this sort of thing. They claim not to be parasitical infiltrators, that they are in fact the keepers of the true Tory flame, and when one of their own is the leader they loudly insist on party loyalty and for the 'headbangers' to shut up.

    Yet when their lot are out of the leadership, any notion of loyalty goes out of the window and they are at the leader like piranhas, or they just full out bugger off and start a new Party like Anna Soubry.

    Now we have one of our own, who is evidently such a loyal Tory that she creates a new alias so she can campaign for the Labour Party, defend the Chagos mess and go into fifth gear her attacks on Kemi. Bunch of complete nutters.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,779

    carnforth said:

    Nigelb said:

    The other factor which is insufficiently discussed is Trump's mental deterioration.
    It's increasingly unlikely that he's able to make even vaguely rational decisions (and pace william, "Trump's instincts" are almost entirely malign).

    I would dispute that. Look at the way he spoke with great humanity about the victims of the Iraq war back in 2007:

    https://x.com/mazemoore/status/1750020277210169760
    Was it The Apprentice that made him jump the shark?

    I don't doubt he's always been unethical/highly questionable, but he's got much worse over the last 15+ years.
    The birther stuff was the first public spasm of Modern Trump, unless someone knows better?
    1989

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Park_jogger_case#Media_coverage
    Trump has always been a pig ignorant rabble rousing racist prick, as has always been apparent to anybody paying attention.
    Doesn't he take after his father? Or am I maligning Fred?
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 15,427

    I'm thinking Labour beat Greens in Gorton and Denton. Greens sweep the Levenshulme area and pick up some of the muslim votes, but less than predicted. I would argue they need to be polling much further ahead than Labour at this stage to actually beat them.

    My head says Labour will also narrowly edge Reform, but I do think its still winnable for Reform - the conditions will never be more perfect, with neither progressive side able to finish the other off and absorb their vote. Reform could pick up a lot of that 'Don't know' vote and score a massive upset. I think at this stage their message should be (and probably is) 'this is a free hit' - lend me your vote and if you don't like what happens, go back to Labour next time.'

    I'm thinking Labour beat Greens in Gorton and Denton. Greens sweep the Levenshulme area and pick up some of the muslim votes, but less than predicted. I would argue they need to be polling much further ahead than Labour at this stage to actually beat them.

    My head says Labour will also narrowly edge Reform, but I do think its still winnable for Reform - the conditions will never be more perfect, with neither progressive side able to finish the other off and absorb their vote. Reform could pick up a lot of that 'Don't know' vote and score a massive upset. I think at this stage their message should be (and probably is) 'this is a free hit' - lend me your vote and if you don't like what happens, go back to Labour next time.'

    Sounds a like a good call and if I were having a bet (I'm not) that's the way I would play it.

    Whatever happens I wouldn't read too much into the results as far as the GE is concerned. Bettingwise, that remains impenetrable.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,508
    edited 11:50AM

    Brixian59 said:

    Whilst I don't see Bridget Phillipson as a Leadership Candidate, and I believe she was wrong to let herself be used as a pawn by McSweeney in the Deputy Leadership contest, as an Education Secretary she is increasingly impressive.

    The SEND issue is a minefield of malpractice, bad proceeds delay, angst and frustration and a huge cost to the Exchequer.

    It would appear that her detailed proposals to be announced tomorrow will be a considered attempt to move the matter forwards, better for the majority of parents and children and for schools.

    No doubt some will be loud opponents as is always the case, but hopefully all but the mad left of Labour, and the sensible majority of others will support it.

    A big test for Tories and Reform who appear to have no coherent plans and for the Tories whose whole education policy seemed to be run by the crazed nutcase Babslsingh an area where they have zero credibility.

    Why is it always the wet side of the Tory Party that does this sort of thing. They claim not to be parasitical infiltrators, that they are in fact the keepers of the true Tory flame, and when one of their own is the leader they loudly insist on party loyalty and for the 'headbangers' to shut up.

    Yet when their lot are out of the leadership, any notion of loyalty goes out of the window and they are at the leader like piranhas, or they just full out bugger off and start a new Party like Anna Soubry.

    Now we have one of our own, who is evidently such a loyal Tory that she creates a new alias so she can campaign for the Labour Party, defend the Chagos mess and go into fifth gear her attacks on Kemi. Bunch of complete nutters.
    They were never a loyal Tory. Always been a trollish character, through the many incarnations.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 15,693
    edited 11:52AM
    isam said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pakistan strikes militants in Afghanistan

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdxgln3gnd6o

    Are we back to the cricket?

    I don't think this match is over yet. The pitch isn't so easy.
    22-4 (4.5)

    A hundred lines of "Never judge a pitch until both teams have batted on it" on my desk tomorrow morning from all the doomsters saying England were X runs short please
    Brook GAIN Bootle
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 134,233
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    In the Telegraph, Reform seem to think they will win in May Havering, Bexley, Bromley, Barking, Hillingdon and Croydon with the LDs holding theirs, Westminster NoC, Tories Harrow and K and C and everything else Labour (ffs, thats just ridiculous)

    Im not sure what data they are looking at.

    I'll be very surprised if Reform have overall majorities in more than Havering and Bexley

    Largest party or significant gains, sure

    It's all expectations management or wishcasting or whatever.

    I'd be astonished if Reform won Barking - yes, they could well win seats there and in a number of other Boroughs and they could deny the Conservatives outright control in Croydon and Barnet but I don't see that kind of turquoise wave on current evidence.
    Agreed. I mean Bromley is possible i suppose but even the by election win in favourable conditions of polling in Bromley Common doesnt scream 'majority'.
    And Labour holding on everywhere is just daft on every single metric available.
    Oh well, more fun taking the piss out of them later
    I think Bromley’s too posh for Reform.

    I think they’ll do very well in Dagenham, but won’t win the borough.

    Hillingdon, Croydon, even Sutton are possibles, but in the first two, I think a Con/ Reform coalition is more likely.

    Westminster can’t be NOC. It’s either Con or Lab, and I think Con is most likely.

    Labour, IMHO, will lose Barnet, Camden, Merton, and quite possibly, Enfield, Wandsworth, Haringey, and Islington.
    I definitely think Reform is acquiring a class dimension.

    The trouble is the Right can't win if the posher voters go Conservative and the saltier ones go Reform under FPTP.
    IMHO, it’s that sort of sorting that helps to maximise gains under FPTP. Reform challenge Labour in the Red Wall, the Conservatives in wealthier places.
    Even the redwall will have wealthier streets though and wealthy places some council estates.

    Boris won in 2019 getting 43% of the vote a big majority over a Labour Party still on 32% but if the Tories and Reform both got 25% then Labour could be re elected on just 26% with FPTP even though the right vote combined was even bigger than in 2019
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 134,233
    MattW said:

    Restore have announcrd Orla Minihane founder of the Pink Ladies as their Women and Girls safety spokesperson

    Hmmm. I still have her down as one possible Restore Britain defector, following the company she kept.

    But that should lock her in - candidate for2029, perhaps?
    Good news for Epping Tories if Orla stands for Restore and takes Reform votes
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 27,714

    According to a thread I just read on G&D, Yougov also polled there for voting intention. I wonder whether that will see the light of day.

    Linky plz?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,215
    edited 11:57AM

    MattW said:

    Restore have announcrd Orla Minihane founder of the Pink Ladies as their Women and Girls safety spokesperson

    Hmmm. I still have her down as one possible Restore Britain defector, following the company she kept.

    But that should lock her in - candidate for2029, perhaps?
    For Restore? Almost certainly as shes taken on a spokesperson role.
    Reform are startimg to look like yesterdays radicals with Captain Pugwash doing a Greta for photo ops.
    Third in G and D and the bottom can start falling out
    Thanks. I misread it as "Reform" in the first post so was not quite clear.

    At the Epping demos she was closely associated with Callum Barker (Homeland Party) and Mark Collett (Patriotic Alternative, BNP national figure). And was not interested when it was pointed out who they are.

    Sarah White may go as well. She was in a similar role at Epping.

    Orla's content:

  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 15,693
    HYUFD said:

    MattW said:

    Restore have announcrd Orla Minihane founder of the Pink Ladies as their Women and Girls safety spokesperson

    Hmmm. I still have her down as one possible Restore Britain defector, following the company she kept.

    But that should lock her in - candidate for2029, perhaps?
    Good news for Epping Tories if Orla stands for Restore and takes Reform votes
    Will her defection cause Reformers to waiver and not do as well in May in Epping (even if Restore dont stand?)
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 57,930
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Restore have announcrd Orla Minihane founder of the Pink Ladies as their Women and Girls safety spokesperson

    Hmmm. I still have her down as one possible Restore Britain defector, following the company she kept.

    But that should lock her in - candidate for2029, perhaps?
    For Restore? Almost certainly as shes taken on a spokesperson role.
    Reform are startimg to look like yesterdays radicals with Captain Pugwash doing a Greta for photo ops.
    Third in G and D and the bottom can start falling out
    Thanks. I misread it as "Reform" in the first post so was not quite clear.

    At the Epping demos she was closely associated with Callum Barker (Homeland Party) and Mark Collett (Patriotic Alternative, BNP national figure). And was not interested when it was pointed out who they are.

    Sarah White may go as well. She was in a similar role at Epping.

    Orla's content:

    MULTICULTURALISM.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,420
    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,508
    Oops, was writing in old thread. Remarkable that it is 34-5 within the Powerplay. Incredible.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 15,693
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Restore have announcrd Orla Minihane founder of the Pink Ladies as their Women and Girls safety spokesperson

    Hmmm. I still have her down as one possible Restore Britain defector, following the company she kept.

    But that should lock her in - candidate for2029, perhaps?
    For Restore? Almost certainly as shes taken on a spokesperson role.
    Reform are startimg to look like yesterdays radicals with Captain Pugwash doing a Greta for photo ops.
    Third in G and D and the bottom can start falling out
    Thanks. I misread it as "Reform" in the first post so was not quite clear.

    At the Epping demos she was closely associated with Callum Barker (Homeland Party) and Mark Collett (Patriotic Alternative, BNP national figure). And was not interested when it was pointed out who they are.

    Sarah White may go as well. She was in a similar role at Epping.

    Orla's content:

    Restore/Lowe are fully on the 'dont care what you call us' train which probably earns them a hardcore low single figures (2 to 5)% but limits their potential
    Its rerunning the late noughties BNP type push
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 57,930
    Dura_Ace said:

    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Nigelb said:

    I am in awe at the courage of those Iranian students.

    The medical too, from my family's Iranian heritage friends, they are killing the doctors/nurses/pharmacists who are treating the wounded.
    Despicable.
    They are utterly evil

    Iran authorities demanding large sums for return of protesters' bodies, BBC told

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g5md1n1yxo

    Family of Iranian protester forced to 'pay for the bullet that killed their son'

    https://news.sky.com/story/family-of-iranian-protester-forced-to-pay-for-the-bullet-that-killed-their-son-13508060
    And there is a wave of executions following sham trials now going on.

    Trump has once already encouraged continuing protests with the promise of intervention, and not followed through.

    Will this time be different ?
    Military guy in Telegraph wrote yesterday that the 2nd aircraft carrier doesn't arrive in Eastern Med until Tuesday.

    After that - anything could kick off.

    Anything except a land invasion, which is the only thing that would work, at least in the short term.

    Just throwing a few bombs and missiles into Iran would be very unlikely to get regime change - it would probably just get the Ayatollahs to crack down even harder. Regime change in a country of 25 million in 2003 took a year's preparation and half a million ground troops. This time there are only two carrier battle groups - more than enough firepower for some punitive airstrikes, but nothing like enough to invade a country, let alone occupy it.

    So I see this more as a distraction from the Epstein files than an attempt to do anything meaningful there. Of course it's possible that the Iranian regime is so weak that the opposition will be encouraged sufficiently to overthrow it. I doubt that's the case, based on what we've seen over the last couple of months, but of course I've no more information than anyone else on this.
    The last land invasion of Iran, by the Iraqis ended in a stalemate. Neither side made much difference to the other; neither regime changed, just a lot or ordinary people died.
    True but I don't think the Iraqi army of 1980 is analagous to the American army of 2026 - if America invaded in serious force it would undoubtedly overthrow the Iranian regime very quickly.

    Invade how? It's 700km from the Gulf to Tehran with several inconvenient mountain ranges in the way.
    Are you forgetting we and the Russkies took Tehran in 1941?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 34,110
    viewcode said:

    According to a thread I just read on G&D, Yougov also polled there for voting intention. I wonder whether that will see the light of day.

    Linky plz?
    It was on reddit. I don't have reddit or really know how it works, but my browser opened a thread on it because I was looking at Gorton and Denton stuff. I am afraid I don't still have the link.

    The conversation was around polls and someone from the constituency claimed they had been polled by Yougov. I assumed that was a constituency poll as it was a big coincidence if not.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 86,574
    MattW said:

    a

    carnforth said:

    Nigelb said:

    The other factor which is insufficiently discussed is Trump's mental deterioration.
    It's increasingly unlikely that he's able to make even vaguely rational decisions (and pace william, "Trump's instincts" are almost entirely malign).

    I would dispute that. Look at the way he spoke with great humanity about the victims of the Iraq war back in 2007:

    https://x.com/mazemoore/status/1750020277210169760
    Was it The Apprentice that made him jump the shark?

    I don't doubt he's always been unethical/highly questionable, but he's got much worse over the last 15+ years.
    The birther stuff was the first public spasm of Modern Trump, unless someone knows better?
    1989

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Park_jogger_case#Media_coverage
    Racism in his management of apartment buildings in New York was very apparent, IIRC, right from the start of his taking over the family business.

    He was paying off Jesse Jackson via PUSH, to try and ameliorate the damage court cases were doing, IIRC.
    Fred and Donald Trump were sued in 1973 by the DOJ for discrimination against black people in housing rental. They agreed a Consent Decree in 1975, then were sued again in 1978 for breaking it.

    eg https://www.politico.com/blogs/under-the-radar/2017/02/trump-fbi-files-discrimination-case-235067
    He's always been a racist, and a narcissist.
    I think it was probably his involvement in wrestling, and realisation that he could move a crowd, that turned him into a megalomaniac.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 70,275

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Restore have announcrd Orla Minihane founder of the Pink Ladies as their Women and Girls safety spokesperson

    Hmmm. I still have her down as one possible Restore Britain defector, following the company she kept.

    But that should lock her in - candidate for2029, perhaps?
    For Restore? Almost certainly as shes taken on a spokesperson role.
    Reform are startimg to look like yesterdays radicals with Captain Pugwash doing a Greta for photo ops.
    Third in G and D and the bottom can start falling out
    Thanks. I misread it as "Reform" in the first post so was not quite clear.

    At the Epping demos she was closely associated with Callum Barker (Homeland Party) and Mark Collett (Patriotic Alternative, BNP national figure). And was not interested when it was pointed out who they are.

    Sarah White may go as well. She was in a similar role at Epping.

    Orla's content:

    MULTICULTURALISM.
    You don't know multiculturism, she goes to a different school.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 694

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 15,427
    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    a

    carnforth said:

    Nigelb said:

    The other factor which is insufficiently discussed is Trump's mental deterioration.
    It's increasingly unlikely that he's able to make even vaguely rational decisions (and pace william, "Trump's instincts" are almost entirely malign).

    I would dispute that. Look at the way he spoke with great humanity about the victims of the Iraq war back in 2007:

    https://x.com/mazemoore/status/1750020277210169760
    Was it The Apprentice that made him jump the shark?

    I don't doubt he's always been unethical/highly questionable, but he's got much worse over the last 15+ years.
    The birther stuff was the first public spasm of Modern Trump, unless someone knows better?
    1989

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Park_jogger_case#Media_coverage
    Racism in his management of apartment buildings in New York was very apparent, IIRC, right from the start of his taking over the family business.

    He was paying off Jesse Jackson via PUSH, to try and ameliorate the damage court cases were doing, IIRC.
    Fred and Donald Trump were sued in 1973 by the DOJ for discrimination against black people in housing rental. They agreed a Consent Decree in 1975, then were sued again in 1978 for breaking it.

    eg https://www.politico.com/blogs/under-the-radar/2017/02/trump-fbi-files-discrimination-case-235067
    He's always been a racist, and a narcissist.
    I think it was probably his involvement in wrestling, and realisation that he could move a crowd, that turned him into a megalomaniac.
    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    a

    carnforth said:

    Nigelb said:

    The other factor which is insufficiently discussed is Trump's mental deterioration.
    It's increasingly unlikely that he's able to make even vaguely rational decisions (and pace william, "Trump's instincts" are almost entirely malign).

    I would dispute that. Look at the way he spoke with great humanity about the victims of the Iraq war back in 2007:

    https://x.com/mazemoore/status/1750020277210169760
    Was it The Apprentice that made him jump the shark?

    I don't doubt he's always been unethical/highly questionable, but he's got much worse over the last 15+ years.
    The birther stuff was the first public spasm of Modern Trump, unless someone knows better?
    1989

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Park_jogger_case#Media_coverage
    Racism in his management of apartment buildings in New York was very apparent, IIRC, right from the start of his taking over the family business.

    He was paying off Jesse Jackson via PUSH, to try and ameliorate the damage court cases were doing, IIRC.
    Fred and Donald Trump were sued in 1973 by the DOJ for discrimination against black people in housing rental. They agreed a Consent Decree in 1975, then were sued again in 1978 for breaking it.

    eg https://www.politico.com/blogs/under-the-radar/2017/02/trump-fbi-files-discrimination-case-235067
    He's always been a racist, and a narcissist.
    I think it was probably his involvement in wrestling, and realisation that he could move a crowd, that turned him into a megalomaniac.
    He was always like that according to his sister.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,215

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Restore have announcrd Orla Minihane founder of the Pink Ladies as their Women and Girls safety spokesperson

    Hmmm. I still have her down as one possible Restore Britain defector, following the company she kept.

    But that should lock her in - candidate for2029, perhaps?
    For Restore? Almost certainly as shes taken on a spokesperson role.
    Reform are startimg to look like yesterdays radicals with Captain Pugwash doing a Greta for photo ops.
    Third in G and D and the bottom can start falling out
    Thanks. I misread it as "Reform" in the first post so was not quite clear.

    At the Epping demos she was closely associated with Callum Barker (Homeland Party) and Mark Collett (Patriotic Alternative, BNP national figure). And was not interested when it was pointed out who they are.

    Sarah White may go as well. She was in a similar role at Epping.

    Orla's content:

    Restore/Lowe are fully on the 'dont care what you call us' train which probably earns them a hardcore low single figures (2 to 5)% but limits their potential
    Its rerunning the late noughties BNP type push
    Some of the suits are mini-me Nick Griffin, which is amusing.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 34,110
    The Royal Family being in a bit of jeopardy is going to make Reform's Government's job a bit easier. They are going to be too glad that someone is in power who actually likes them and wants to keep them to make much trouble (as I feared Charles would).
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,508
    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,913

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Restore have announcrd Orla Minihane founder of the Pink Ladies as their Women and Girls safety spokesperson

    Hmmm. I still have her down as one possible Restore Britain defector, following the company she kept.

    But that should lock her in - candidate for2029, perhaps?
    For Restore? Almost certainly as shes taken on a spokesperson role.
    Reform are startimg to look like yesterdays radicals with Captain Pugwash doing a Greta for photo ops.
    Third in G and D and the bottom can start falling out
    Thanks. I misread it as "Reform" in the first post so was not quite clear.

    At the Epping demos she was closely associated with Callum Barker (Homeland Party) and Mark Collett (Patriotic Alternative, BNP national figure). And was not interested when it was pointed out who they are.

    Sarah White may go as well. She was in a similar role at Epping.

    Orla's content:

    MULTICULTURALISM.

    Joyce Cooper: Fascist!

    Nicholas Angel: I beg your pardon?

    Joyce Cooper: [doing a crossword puzzle] System of government categorized by extreme dictatorship. Seven across.

    Nicholas Angel: Oh, I see. It's "fascism."

    Joyce Cooper: "Fascism"! Wonderful. Now, we've put you in the Castle Suite. Bernard will escort you over there
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 57,696
    isam said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pakistan strikes militants in Afghanistan

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdxgln3gnd6o

    Are we back to the cricket?

    I don't think this match is over yet. The pitch isn't so easy.
    22-4 (4.5)

    A hundred lines of "Never judge a pitch until both teams have batted on it" on my desk tomorrow morning from all the doomsters saying England were X runs short please
    A fair point but this game is not over yet. The RRR is nothing exceptional.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 34,110

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    I think ISIS would probably be worse. The current regime is evil, but functions somewhat as a state. ISIS is just an abbatoir.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 7,555

    Dura_Ace said:

    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Nigelb said:

    I am in awe at the courage of those Iranian students.

    The medical too, from my family's Iranian heritage friends, they are killing the doctors/nurses/pharmacists who are treating the wounded.
    Despicable.
    They are utterly evil

    Iran authorities demanding large sums for return of protesters' bodies, BBC told

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g5md1n1yxo

    Family of Iranian protester forced to 'pay for the bullet that killed their son'

    https://news.sky.com/story/family-of-iranian-protester-forced-to-pay-for-the-bullet-that-killed-their-son-13508060
    And there is a wave of executions following sham trials now going on.

    Trump has once already encouraged continuing protests with the promise of intervention, and not followed through.

    Will this time be different ?
    Military guy in Telegraph wrote yesterday that the 2nd aircraft carrier doesn't arrive in Eastern Med until Tuesday.

    After that - anything could kick off.

    Anything except a land invasion, which is the only thing that would work, at least in the short term.

    Just throwing a few bombs and missiles into Iran would be very unlikely to get regime change - it would probably just get the Ayatollahs to crack down even harder. Regime change in a country of 25 million in 2003 took a year's preparation and half a million ground troops. This time there are only two carrier battle groups - more than enough firepower for some punitive airstrikes, but nothing like enough to invade a country, let alone occupy it.

    So I see this more as a distraction from the Epstein files than an attempt to do anything meaningful there. Of course it's possible that the Iranian regime is so weak that the opposition will be encouraged sufficiently to overthrow it. I doubt that's the case, based on what we've seen over the last couple of months, but of course I've no more information than anyone else on this.
    The last land invasion of Iran, by the Iraqis ended in a stalemate. Neither side made much difference to the other; neither regime changed, just a lot or ordinary people died.
    True but I don't think the Iraqi army of 1980 is analagous to the American army of 2026 - if America invaded in serious force it would undoubtedly overthrow the Iranian regime very quickly.

    Invade how? It's 700km from the Gulf to Tehran with several inconvenient mountain ranges in the way.
    Are you forgetting we and the Russkies took Tehran in 1941?
    I don’t think the Russians will help us this time.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 15,427
    DavidL said:

    isam said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pakistan strikes militants in Afghanistan

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdxgln3gnd6o

    Are we back to the cricket?

    I don't think this match is over yet. The pitch isn't so easy.
    22-4 (4.5)

    A hundred lines of "Never judge a pitch until both teams have batted on it" on my desk tomorrow morning from all the doomsters saying England were X runs short please
    A fair point but this game is not over yet. The RRR is nothing exceptional.
    DavidL said:

    isam said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pakistan strikes militants in Afghanistan

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdxgln3gnd6o

    Are we back to the cricket?

    I don't think this match is over yet. The pitch isn't so easy.
    22-4 (4.5)

    A hundred lines of "Never judge a pitch until both teams have batted on it" on my desk tomorrow morning from all the doomsters saying England were X runs short please
    A fair point but this game is not over yet. The RRR is nothing exceptional.
    Don't try and wriggle out of it, David. Guilty as charged.

    [PtP drums fingers and smiles smugly.]
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 57,930
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Restore have announcrd Orla Minihane founder of the Pink Ladies as their Women and Girls safety spokesperson

    Hmmm. I still have her down as one possible Restore Britain defector, following the company she kept.

    But that should lock her in - candidate for2029, perhaps?
    For Restore? Almost certainly as shes taken on a spokesperson role.
    Reform are startimg to look like yesterdays radicals with Captain Pugwash doing a Greta for photo ops.
    Third in G and D and the bottom can start falling out
    Thanks. I misread it as "Reform" in the first post so was not quite clear.

    At the Epping demos she was closely associated with Callum Barker (Homeland Party) and Mark Collett (Patriotic Alternative, BNP national figure). And was not interested when it was pointed out who they are.

    Sarah White may go as well. She was in a similar role at Epping.

    Orla's content:

    Restore/Lowe are fully on the 'dont care what you call us' train which probably earns them a hardcore low single figures (2 to 5)% but limits their potential
    Its rerunning the late noughties BNP type push
    Some of the suits are mini-me Nick Griffin, which is amusing.
    Cambridge-educated Nick Griffin!
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,508

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    I think ISIS would probably be worse. The current regime is evil, but functions somewhat as a state. ISIS is just an abbatoir.
    Ceasing to operate as a state would be an improvement. At least then people locally could fight for their freedom.

    Chaos is better than authoritarianism.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 134,233
    Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    Brixian59 said:

    This backs up some corroborative evidence that the Muslim vote in Gorton is going lukewarm on Greens and back to Labour.

    Signs of a significant change in PM mindset on Trump.

    Hmm, the New Statesman isn't so convinced:

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk-politics/2026/02/in-gorton-and-denton-the-muslim-vote-is-fracturing

    Is Gorton and Denton going the same way as Stoneygate ward in Leicester did this week?
    Second would be ideal. Labour don't need the seat but as far as it's possible it would be good for Reform to be roundly beaten Also a victory for Green would encourage Starmer to start looking leftwards and stop apeing the fascists
    A victory for the Greens would be a disaster for Labour and risks leaking further Labour votes to Polanski's party.

    Indeed a narrow Reform win with Labour a close second and the Greens third would be better for SKS than a Green win as at least he could then say 'Vote Green, get Reform'
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 694

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    ISIS would be far worse.

    The core service systems, as like Libya was under Gaddafi, aren't bad.

    ISIS would destroy everything.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 57,930

    Dura_Ace said:

    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Nigelb said:

    I am in awe at the courage of those Iranian students.

    The medical too, from my family's Iranian heritage friends, they are killing the doctors/nurses/pharmacists who are treating the wounded.
    Despicable.
    They are utterly evil

    Iran authorities demanding large sums for return of protesters' bodies, BBC told

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g5md1n1yxo

    Family of Iranian protester forced to 'pay for the bullet that killed their son'

    https://news.sky.com/story/family-of-iranian-protester-forced-to-pay-for-the-bullet-that-killed-their-son-13508060
    And there is a wave of executions following sham trials now going on.

    Trump has once already encouraged continuing protests with the promise of intervention, and not followed through.

    Will this time be different ?
    Military guy in Telegraph wrote yesterday that the 2nd aircraft carrier doesn't arrive in Eastern Med until Tuesday.

    After that - anything could kick off.

    Anything except a land invasion, which is the only thing that would work, at least in the short term.

    Just throwing a few bombs and missiles into Iran would be very unlikely to get regime change - it would probably just get the Ayatollahs to crack down even harder. Regime change in a country of 25 million in 2003 took a year's preparation and half a million ground troops. This time there are only two carrier battle groups - more than enough firepower for some punitive airstrikes, but nothing like enough to invade a country, let alone occupy it.

    So I see this more as a distraction from the Epstein files than an attempt to do anything meaningful there. Of course it's possible that the Iranian regime is so weak that the opposition will be encouraged sufficiently to overthrow it. I doubt that's the case, based on what we've seen over the last couple of months, but of course I've no more information than anyone else on this.
    The last land invasion of Iran, by the Iraqis ended in a stalemate. Neither side made much difference to the other; neither regime changed, just a lot or ordinary people died.
    True but I don't think the Iraqi army of 1980 is analagous to the American army of 2026 - if America invaded in serious force it would undoubtedly overthrow the Iranian regime very quickly.

    Invade how? It's 700km from the Gulf to Tehran with several inconvenient mountain ranges in the way.
    Are you forgetting we and the Russkies took Tehran in 1941?
    I don’t think the Russians will help us this time.
    But still, we invaded Iran from the south.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 15,427

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    I think ISIS would probably be worse. The current regime is evil, but functions somewhat as a state. ISIS is just an abbatoir.
    Ceasing to operate as a state would be an improvement. At least then people locally could fight for their freedom.

    Chaos is better than authoritarianism.
    Just for the record, Bart, what's your take on the French Revolution? [Don't say 'too early to tell.']
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,508
    Brixian59 said:

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    ISIS would be far worse.

    The core service systems, as like Libya was under Gaddafi, aren't bad.

    ISIS would destroy everything.
    Destroying everything would be an improvement on everything being controlled by the Ayatollahs.

    Better than ISIS controlling everything too.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 34,110

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    I think ISIS would probably be worse. The current regime is evil, but functions somewhat as a state. ISIS is just an abbatoir.
    Ceasing to operate as a state would be an improvement. At least then people locally could fight for their freedom.

    Chaos is better than authoritarianism.
    I know this is your long-held view, but I think you should probably try it out before you make a firm decision.

    Furthermore, I'm not saying chaos would be worse, I am saying a state controlled by ISIS would be worse.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,467
    Brixian59 said:

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    ISIS would be far worse.

    The core service systems, as like Libya was under Gaddafi, aren't bad.

    ISIS would destroy everything.
    ISIS effectively run Syria now and the West doesn’t care
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 694
    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    Brixian59 said:

    This backs up some corroborative evidence that the Muslim vote in Gorton is going lukewarm on Greens and back to Labour.

    Signs of a significant change in PM mindset on Trump.

    Hmm, the New Statesman isn't so convinced:

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk-politics/2026/02/in-gorton-and-denton-the-muslim-vote-is-fracturing

    Is Gorton and Denton going the same way as Stoneygate ward in Leicester did this week?
    Second would be ideal. Labour don't need the seat but as far as it's possible it would be good for Reform to be roundly beaten Also a victory for Green would encourage Starmer to start looking leftwards and stop apeing the fascists
    A victory for the Greens would be a disaster for Labour and risks leaking further Labour votes to Polanski's party.

    Indeed a narrow Reform win with Labour a close second and the Greens third would be better for SKS than a Green win as at least he could then say 'Vote Green, get Reform'
    I respectfully disagree.

    The Green vote is much flakier than the Reform vote in many Labour seats

    It's easier to persuade people with a degree of intelligence to vote tactically, less so with your average Reform bone head
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,508

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    I think ISIS would probably be worse. The current regime is evil, but functions somewhat as a state. ISIS is just an abbatoir.
    Ceasing to operate as a state would be an improvement. At least then people locally could fight for their freedom.

    Chaos is better than authoritarianism.
    Just for the record, Bart, what's your take on the French Revolution? [Don't say 'too early to tell.']
    Brutal, but they eventually ended up with democracy.

    Sometimes more than one revolution is required, but stability of authoritarianism does not lead to it.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,779
    DavidL said:

    isam said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pakistan strikes militants in Afghanistan

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdxgln3gnd6o

    Are we back to the cricket?

    I don't think this match is over yet. The pitch isn't so easy.
    22-4 (4.5)

    A hundred lines of "Never judge a pitch until both teams have batted on it" on my desk tomorrow morning from all the doomsters saying England were X runs short please
    A fair point but this game is not over yet. The RRR is nothing exceptional.
    DavidL said:

    isam said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pakistan strikes militants in Afghanistan

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdxgln3gnd6o

    Are we back to the cricket?

    I don't think this match is over yet. The pitch isn't so easy.
    22-4 (4.5)

    A hundred lines of "Never judge a pitch until both teams have batted on it" on my desk tomorrow morning from all the doomsters saying England were X runs short please
    A fair point but this game is not over yet. The RRR is nothing exceptional.
    52-6. Stirrings of hope!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 134,233
    edited 12:14PM

    The Royal Family being in a bit of jeopardy is going to make Reform's Government's job a bit easier. They are going to be too glad that someone is in power who actually likes them and wants to keep them to make much trouble (as I feared Charles would).

    Not sure that is entirely true.

    The latest Yougov poll finds Tories have the highest favourable rating for the King at +75% but then LDs at +30% are higher than Reform voters at +28% in having a positive view of Charles. Indeed Labour voters at +28% are tied with Reform voters in their view of the King with only Green voters at -11% lower.

    Reform voters have a better view of Camilla and Prince William than Labour and LD and Green voters though, albeit William has net positive ratings with all parties voters, even the Greens, while Camilla has net negative ratings with Labour, LD and Green voters
    https://ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/Internal_RoyalFamilyTracker_260109.pdf
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,553
    Brixian59 said:

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    ISIS would be far worse.

    The core service systems, as like Libya was under Gaddafi, aren't bad.

    ISIS would destroy everything.
    Isn't Iran in the midst of a water crisis, partly caused by natural problems (few rivers, generally low rainfall), partly caused by the regime's exciting mix of incompetence and corruption?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,215

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    I think ISIS would probably be worse. The current regime is evil, but functions somewhat as a state. ISIS is just an abbatoir.
    Ceasing to operate as a state would be an improvement. At least then people locally could fight for their freedom.

    Chaos is better than authoritarianism.
    I know this is your long-held view, but I think you should probably try it out before you make a firm decision.
    Bart's perfect home is for sale in Wales at present.

    17 acre island, off Port Meirion, with one house on it.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdx4xkkly9qo

    :wink:
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,508

    DavidL said:

    isam said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pakistan strikes militants in Afghanistan

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdxgln3gnd6o

    Are we back to the cricket?

    I don't think this match is over yet. The pitch isn't so easy.
    22-4 (4.5)

    A hundred lines of "Never judge a pitch until both teams have batted on it" on my desk tomorrow morning from all the doomsters saying England were X runs short please
    A fair point but this game is not over yet. The RRR is nothing exceptional.
    DavidL said:

    isam said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pakistan strikes militants in Afghanistan

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdxgln3gnd6o

    Are we back to the cricket?

    I don't think this match is over yet. The pitch isn't so easy.
    22-4 (4.5)

    A hundred lines of "Never judge a pitch until both teams have batted on it" on my desk tomorrow morning from all the doomsters saying England were X runs short please
    A fair point but this game is not over yet. The RRR is nothing exceptional.
    52-6. Stirrings of hope!
    RRR now above 9 with 10 overs remaining and only 4 wickets remaining.

    Didn't expect this 10 overs ago.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,962

    viewcode said:

    According to a thread I just read on G&D, Yougov also polled there for voting intention. I wonder whether that will see the light of day.

    Linky plz?
    It was on reddit. I don't have reddit or really know how it works, but my browser opened a thread on it because I was looking at Gorton and Denton stuff. I am afraid I don't still have the link.

    The conversation was around polls and someone from the constituency claimed they had been polled by Yougov. I assumed that was a constituency poll as it was a big coincidence if not.
    YouGov usually poll about 2400 people. There are 650 constituencies, although YouGov only poll Great Britain, so that’s 632 constituencies. Therefore, a typical YouGov poll will have 3.8 respondents from G&D.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 15,427

    DavidL said:

    Surely much more important this morning is what can England hope to get against SL? Would have thought they will need 200.

    Hmmm....I think 175 would do it, but they're going to struggle to get that.
    146/9.....I rest my case.
    30 short

    DavidL said:

    Surely much more important this morning is what can England hope to get against SL? Would have thought they will need 200.

    Hmmm....I think 175 would do it, but they're going to struggle to get that.
    146/9.....I rest my case.
    30 short
    The Discipliniary Committee will be in touch shortly.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,779

    DavidL said:

    isam said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pakistan strikes militants in Afghanistan

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdxgln3gnd6o

    Are we back to the cricket?

    I don't think this match is over yet. The pitch isn't so easy.
    22-4 (4.5)

    A hundred lines of "Never judge a pitch until both teams have batted on it" on my desk tomorrow morning from all the doomsters saying England were X runs short please
    A fair point but this game is not over yet. The RRR is nothing exceptional.
    DavidL said:

    isam said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pakistan strikes militants in Afghanistan

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdxgln3gnd6o

    Are we back to the cricket?

    I don't think this match is over yet. The pitch isn't so easy.
    22-4 (4.5)

    A hundred lines of "Never judge a pitch until both teams have batted on it" on my desk tomorrow morning from all the doomsters saying England were X runs short please
    A fair point but this game is not over yet. The RRR is nothing exceptional.
    52-6. Stirrings of hope!
    RRR now above 9 with 10 overs remaining and only 4 wickets remaining.

    Didn't expect this 10 overs ago.
    I rarely agree with you but this has to be an exception.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 694

    Brixian59 said:

    Whilst I don't see Bridget Phillipson as a Leadership Candidate, and I believe she was wrong to let herself be used as a pawn by McSweeney in the Deputy Leadership contest, as an Education Secretary she is increasingly impressive.

    The SEND issue is a minefield of malpractice, bad proceeds delay, angst and frustration and a huge cost to the Exchequer.

    It would appear that her detailed proposals to be announced tomorrow will be a considered attempt to move the matter forwards, better for the majority of parents and children and for schools.

    No doubt some will be loud opponents as is always the case, but hopefully all but the mad left of Labour, and the sensible majority of others will support it.

    A big test for Tories and Reform who appear to have no coherent plans and for the Tories whose whole education policy seemed to be run by the crazed nutcase Babslsingh an area where they have zero credibility.

    Why is it always the wet side of the Tory Party that does this sort of thing. They claim not to be parasitical infiltrators, that they are in fact the keepers of the true Tory flame, and when one of their own is the leader they loudly insist on party loyalty and for the 'headbangers' to shut up.

    Yet when their lot are out of the leadership, any notion of loyalty goes out of the window and they are at the leader like piranhas, or they just full out bugger off and start a new Party like Anna Soubry.

    Now we have one of our own, who is evidently such a loyal Tory that she creates a new alias so she can campaign for the Labour Party, defend the Chagos mess and go into fifth gear her attacks on Kemi. Bunch of complete nutters.
    What are you on about?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,508

    Brixian59 said:

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    ISIS would be far worse.

    The core service systems, as like Libya was under Gaddafi, aren't bad.

    ISIS would destroy everything.
    ISIS effectively run Syria now and the West doesn’t care
    Syria is causing much less evil in this world than Iran is right now.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,962
    Brixian59 said:

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    ISIS would be far worse.

    The core service systems, as like Libya was under Gaddafi, aren't bad.

    ISIS would destroy everything.
    But ISIS aren’t going to end up in control of Iran. ISIS are Sunni fundamentalists. Iran is mostly Shia.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,508
    Hit wicket does not happen very often!

    7 down.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,755
    edited 12:22PM

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    I think ISIS would probably be worse. The current regime is evil, but functions somewhat as a state. ISIS is just an abbatoir.
    Ceasing to operate as a state would be an improvement. At least then people locally could fight for their freedom.

    Chaos is better than authoritarianism.
    Tehran is currently experiencing shortages of drinking water, so chaos could quite easily become worse than authoritarianism in very short order if government completely breaks down.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 15,427

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    I think ISIS would probably be worse. The current regime is evil, but functions somewhat as a state. ISIS is just an abbatoir.
    Ceasing to operate as a state would be an improvement. At least then people locally could fight for their freedom.

    Chaos is better than authoritarianism.
    Just for the record, Bart, what's your take on the French Revolution? [Don't say 'too early to tell.']
    Brutal, but they eventually ended up with democracy.

    Sometimes more than one revolution is required, but stability of authoritarianism does not lead to it.

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    I think ISIS would probably be worse. The current regime is evil, but functions somewhat as a state. ISIS is just an abbatoir.
    Ceasing to operate as a state would be an improvement. At least then people locally could fight for their freedom.

    Chaos is better than authoritarianism.
    Just for the record, Bart, what's your take on the French Revolution? [Don't say 'too early to tell.']
    Brutal, but they eventually ended up with democracy.

    Sometimes more than one revolution is required, but stability of authoritarianism does not lead to it.
    Thanks BArt. It wasn't a trick question. I was genuinely interested.

    Mrs PtP regularly bemoans the fact Britain never had a revolution. I never know what to say.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 134,233

    On topic, is there any US polling on support for a prez elected on no more foreign wars blustering his way into a foreign war?

    Also, despite all the bellowing about the biggest build up of US forces since Iraq I haven't seen mention of land forces; are there any? Can't see forced regime change happening without some element of that.

    48% of Americans opposed to military action in Iran, only 28% in favour.

    70% of Democrats opposed and 52% of Independents but 57% of Republicans in favour
    https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/54025-us-military-intervention-iran-little-support-half-americans-think-likely-to-happen-soon-january-30-february-2-2026-economist-yougov-poll
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,962

    Brixian59 said:

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    ISIS would be far worse.

    The core service systems, as like Libya was under Gaddafi, aren't bad.

    ISIS would destroy everything.
    ISIS effectively run Syria now and the West doesn’t care
    They don’t. The Syrian President was previously in al Qaeda, but was long opposed to ISIS. His actions today are not those of ISIS or even of al Qaeda.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,779
    Don't often see that. Last Sri Lankan wicket was a 'hit wicket"!

    69-7
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 134,233

    Brixian59 said:

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    ISIS would be far worse.

    The core service systems, as like Libya was under Gaddafi, aren't bad.

    ISIS would destroy everything.
    ISIS effectively run Syria now and the West doesn’t care
    They don't, Syria's new President Ahmed al Sharaa has never been ISIS and has met Trump and Macron
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 86,574

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    I think ISIS would probably be worse. The current regime is evil, but functions somewhat as a state. ISIS is just an abbatoir.
    Ceasing to operate as a state would be an improvement. At least then people locally could fight for their freedom.

    Chaos is better than authoritarianism.
    I think that's a bit naive.
    The regime still has millions of ideological supporters, and many thousands in the armed militia.

    A decapitation bombing campaign wouldn't even guarantee chaos. (And given the huge death toll in Iraq from their post invasion chaos, you're also being utterly blasé about what that might mean.)

    If the administration has a plan beyond drop lots of bombs, it has been kept remarkably secret. And whatever it might be, it doesn't involve US ground troops.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,508
    glw said:

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    I think ISIS would probably be worse. The current regime is evil, but functions somewhat as a state. ISIS is just an abbatoir.
    Ceasing to operate as a state would be an improvement. At least then people locally could fight for their freedom.

    Chaos is better than authoritarianism.
    Tehran is currently experiencing shortages of drinking water, so chaos could quite easily become worse than authoritarianism in very short order if government completely breaks down.
    I don't understand your logic, they're experiencing shortages under the 'order' of the Ayatollahs.

    Iran's government completely breaking down would be an improvement, even if conditions worsen at least then the government won't be massacring those who protest or seek to make things better.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,508
    Nigelb said:

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    I think ISIS would probably be worse. The current regime is evil, but functions somewhat as a state. ISIS is just an abbatoir.
    Ceasing to operate as a state would be an improvement. At least then people locally could fight for their freedom.

    Chaos is better than authoritarianism.
    I think that's a bit naive.
    The regime still has millions of ideological supporters, and many thousands in the armed militia.

    A decapitation bombing campaign wouldn't even guarantee chaos. (And given the huge death toll in Iraq from their post invasion chaos, you're also being utterly blasé about what that might mean.)

    If the administration has a plan beyond drop lots of bombs, it has been kept remarkably secret. And whatever it might be, it doesn't involve US ground troops.
    More than one thing can be true simultaneously.

    1: Removing the Ayatollahs would be a good thing.

    2: I have zero confidence that the US administration has a coherent plan, or even will act. Indeed I expect TACO.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 134,233
    Brixian59 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    Brixian59 said:

    This backs up some corroborative evidence that the Muslim vote in Gorton is going lukewarm on Greens and back to Labour.

    Signs of a significant change in PM mindset on Trump.

    Hmm, the New Statesman isn't so convinced:

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk-politics/2026/02/in-gorton-and-denton-the-muslim-vote-is-fracturing

    Is Gorton and Denton going the same way as Stoneygate ward in Leicester did this week?
    Second would be ideal. Labour don't need the seat but as far as it's possible it would be good for Reform to be roundly beaten Also a victory for Green would encourage Starmer to start looking leftwards and stop apeing the fascists
    A victory for the Greens would be a disaster for Labour and risks leaking further Labour votes to Polanski's party.

    Indeed a narrow Reform win with Labour a close second and the Greens third would be better for SKS than a Green win as at least he could then say 'Vote Green, get Reform'
    I respectfully disagree.

    The Green vote is much flakier than the Reform vote in many Labour seats

    It's easier to persuade people with a degree of intelligence to vote tactically, less so with your average Reform bone head
    If the Greens start winning Labour seats Labour have zero chance of getting Green voters to vote tactically Labour to beat Reform, Reform voters won't be voting Labour either way
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 15,427

    Don't often see that. Last Sri Lankan wicket was a 'hit wicket"!

    69-7

    You see it often enough in club and school cricket, but I can't remember the last time I saw it in a professional game.

    I do however remember a young Graham Gooch doing it in Australia and the Aussies didn't notice it until it was too late to appeal. Extraordinary.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,755

    glw said:

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    I think ISIS would probably be worse. The current regime is evil, but functions somewhat as a state. ISIS is just an abbatoir.
    Ceasing to operate as a state would be an improvement. At least then people locally could fight for their freedom.

    Chaos is better than authoritarianism.
    Tehran is currently experiencing shortages of drinking water, so chaos could quite easily become worse than authoritarianism in very short order if government completely breaks down.
    I don't understand your logic, they're experiencing shortages under the 'order' of the Ayatollahs.

    Iran's government completely breaking down would be an improvement, even if conditions worsen at least then the government won't be massacring those who protest or seek to make things better.
    They are short of water whilst trying to manage the problem. If government breaks down and nobody is managing the water they will be in a humanitarian crisis almost immediately.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,779

    Don't often see that. Last Sri Lankan wicket was a 'hit wicket"!

    69-7

    You see it often enough in club and school cricket, but I can't remember the last time I saw it in a professional game.

    I do however remember a young Graham Gooch doing it in Australia and the Aussies didn't notice it until it was too late to appeal. Extraordinary.
    Gooch also managed to get out with a 'hit the ball twice' IIRC.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,962
    Nigelb said:

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    I think ISIS would probably be worse. The current regime is evil, but functions somewhat as a state. ISIS is just an abbatoir.
    Ceasing to operate as a state would be an improvement. At least then people locally could fight for their freedom.

    Chaos is better than authoritarianism.
    I think that's a bit naive.
    The regime still has millions of ideological supporters, and many thousands in the armed militia.

    A decapitation bombing campaign wouldn't even guarantee chaos. (And given the huge death toll in Iraq from their post invasion chaos, you're also being utterly blasé about what that might mean.)

    If the administration has a plan beyond drop lots of bombs, it has been kept remarkably secret. And whatever it might be, it doesn't involve US ground troops.
    The Iranian regime has been less authoritarian than some of their recent neighbours (Syria or Iraq under Baathists, Afghanistan under the Taliban, Turkmenistan today). They have more consciously sought a degree of popular support, although their support is greater in rural areas, among ethnic Persians and among Shia Muslims and less in urban areas, the less Persian west or east, and among Iran’s religious minorities.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,508
    glw said:

    glw said:

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    I think ISIS would probably be worse. The current regime is evil, but functions somewhat as a state. ISIS is just an abbatoir.
    Ceasing to operate as a state would be an improvement. At least then people locally could fight for their freedom.

    Chaos is better than authoritarianism.
    Tehran is currently experiencing shortages of drinking water, so chaos could quite easily become worse than authoritarianism in very short order if government completely breaks down.
    I don't understand your logic, they're experiencing shortages under the 'order' of the Ayatollahs.

    Iran's government completely breaking down would be an improvement, even if conditions worsen at least then the government won't be massacring those who protest or seek to make things better.
    They are short of water whilst trying to manage the problem. If government breaks down and nobody is managing the water they will be in a humanitarian crisis almost immediately.
    Better a humanitarian crisis than continued authoritarianism and brutal government crackdowns.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 34,110
    edited 12:33PM
    HYUFD said:

    The Royal Family being in a bit of jeopardy is going to make Reform's Government's job a bit easier. They are going to be too glad that someone is in power who actually likes them and wants to keep them to make much trouble (as I feared Charles would).

    Not sure that is entirely true.

    The latest Yougov poll finds Tories have the highest favourable rating for the King at +75% but then LDs at +30% are higher than Reform voters at +28% in having a positive view of Charles. Indeed Labour voters at +28% are tied with Reform voters in their view of the King with only Green voters at -11% lower.

    Reform voters have a better view of Camilla and Prince William than Labour and LD and Green voters though, albeit William has net positive ratings with all parties voters, even the Greens, while Camilla has net negative ratings with Labour, LD and Green voters
    https://ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/Internal_RoyalFamilyTracker_260109.pdf
    I mean really the leadership of the Government. Nigel is staunchly loyal that way. And he may well be in coalition with the Tories. Starmer has already been throwing the Windsors under the bus (telling Andrew to go to America) to try to save his own worthless hide. The Greens, who could massively improve their representation next time, are definitely not big Monarchists.

    To get their constitutional changes through, Reform may have to threaten to stuff the Lords. Labour has already been stuffing it in preparation for this battle. The King could cause an impasse by threatening to block this or hold it up. I now think he won't do this.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 126,464
    edited 12:33PM
    Will Jacks is the greatest cricketer since Sir Donald Bradman.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 7,555
    HYUFD said:

    The Royal Family being in a bit of jeopardy is going to make Reform's Government's job a bit easier. They are going to be too glad that someone is in power who actually likes them and wants to keep them to make much trouble (as I feared Charles would).

    Not sure that is entirely true.

    The latest Yougov poll finds Tories have the highest favourable rating for the King at +75% but then LDs at +30% are higher than Reform voters at +28% in having a positive view of Charles. Indeed Labour voters at +28% are tied with Reform voters in their view of the King with only Green voters at -11% lower.

    Reform voters have a better view of Camilla and Prince William than Labour and LD and Green voters though, albeit William has net positive ratings with all parties voters, even the Greens, while Camilla has net negative ratings with Labour, LD and Green voters
    https://ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/Internal_RoyalFamilyTracker_260109.pdf
    Polls indicate that Reform supporters have negative views about nearly everyone and everything.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,508

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    I think ISIS would probably be worse. The current regime is evil, but functions somewhat as a state. ISIS is just an abbatoir.
    Ceasing to operate as a state would be an improvement. At least then people locally could fight for their freedom.

    Chaos is better than authoritarianism.
    Just for the record, Bart, what's your take on the French Revolution? [Don't say 'too early to tell.']
    Brutal, but they eventually ended up with democracy.

    Sometimes more than one revolution is required, but stability of authoritarianism does not lead to it.

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    I think ISIS would probably be worse. The current regime is evil, but functions somewhat as a state. ISIS is just an abbatoir.
    Ceasing to operate as a state would be an improvement. At least then people locally could fight for their freedom.

    Chaos is better than authoritarianism.
    Just for the record, Bart, what's your take on the French Revolution? [Don't say 'too early to tell.']
    Brutal, but they eventually ended up with democracy.

    Sometimes more than one revolution is required, but stability of authoritarianism does not lead to it.
    Thanks BArt. It wasn't a trick question. I was genuinely interested.

    Mrs PtP regularly bemoans the fact Britain never had a revolution. I never know what to say.
    Britain never did but England had a couple, which helped (with much bloodshed and harm along the way) ensure our path to Parliamentary democracy.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 34,110
    MattW said:

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    I think ISIS would probably be worse. The current regime is evil, but functions somewhat as a state. ISIS is just an abbatoir.
    Ceasing to operate as a state would be an improvement. At least then people locally could fight for their freedom.

    Chaos is better than authoritarianism.
    I know this is your long-held view, but I think you should probably try it out before you make a firm decision.
    Bart's perfect home is for sale in Wales at present.

    17 acre island, off Port Meirion, with one house on it.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdx4xkkly9qo

    :wink:
    That is beautiful!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 57,696
    Of course when I said 30 under I was talking about SL!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 134,233

    HYUFD said:

    The Royal Family being in a bit of jeopardy is going to make Reform's Government's job a bit easier. They are going to be too glad that someone is in power who actually likes them and wants to keep them to make much trouble (as I feared Charles would).

    Not sure that is entirely true.

    The latest Yougov poll finds Tories have the highest favourable rating for the King at +75% but then LDs at +30% are higher than Reform voters at +28% in having a positive view of Charles. Indeed Labour voters at +28% are tied with Reform voters in their view of the King with only Green voters at -11% lower.

    Reform voters have a better view of Camilla and Prince William than Labour and LD and Green voters though, albeit William has net positive ratings with all parties voters, even the Greens, while Camilla has net negative ratings with Labour, LD and Green voters
    https://ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/Internal_RoyalFamilyTracker_260109.pdf
    I mean really the leadership of the Government. Nigel is staunchly loyal that way. And he may well be in coalition with the Tories. Starmer has already been throwing the Windsors under the bus (telling Andrew to go to America) to try to save his own worthless hide. The Greens, who could massively improve their representation next time, are definitely not big Monarchists.

    To get their constitutional changes through, Reform may have to threaten to stuff the Lords. Labour has already been stuffing it in preparation for this battle. The King could cause an impasse by threatening to block this or hold it up. I now think he won't do this.
    Plenty of Reform voters think the King is too sympathetic to Islam.

    Starmer is anti Andrew (but then so are all parties now) but not the King. If Reform won a majority then the King would ultimately yes accept what they wanted but that would be the same whichever party won
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,420

    Don't often see that. Last Sri Lankan wicket was a 'hit wicket"!

    69-7

    You see it often enough in club and school cricket, but I can't remember the last time I saw it in a professional game.

    I do however remember a young Graham Gooch doing it in Australia and the Aussies didn't notice it until it was too late to appeal. Extraordinary.
    I also remember Dominic Cork getting away with it.

    And of course Botham failing to get his leg over (that one was noticed).
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 34,110

    HYUFD said:

    The Royal Family being in a bit of jeopardy is going to make Reform's Government's job a bit easier. They are going to be too glad that someone is in power who actually likes them and wants to keep them to make much trouble (as I feared Charles would).

    Not sure that is entirely true.

    The latest Yougov poll finds Tories have the highest favourable rating for the King at +75% but then LDs at +30% are higher than Reform voters at +28% in having a positive view of Charles. Indeed Labour voters at +28% are tied with Reform voters in their view of the King with only Green voters at -11% lower.

    Reform voters have a better view of Camilla and Prince William than Labour and LD and Green voters though, albeit William has net positive ratings with all parties voters, even the Greens, while Camilla has net negative ratings with Labour, LD and Green voters
    https://ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/Internal_RoyalFamilyTracker_260109.pdf
    Polls indicate that Reform supporters have negative views about nearly everyone and everything.
    It can't have been a positive lightbulb like you wishing death on someone the other day then.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 86,574

    Nigelb said:

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    I think ISIS would probably be worse. The current regime is evil, but functions somewhat as a state. ISIS is just an abbatoir.
    Ceasing to operate as a state would be an improvement. At least then people locally could fight for their freedom.

    Chaos is better than authoritarianism.
    I think that's a bit naive.
    The regime still has millions of ideological supporters, and many thousands in the armed militia.

    A decapitation bombing campaign wouldn't even guarantee chaos. (And given the huge death toll in Iraq from their post invasion chaos, you're also being utterly blasé about what that might mean.)

    If the administration has a plan beyond drop lots of bombs, it has been kept remarkably secret. And whatever it might be, it doesn't involve US ground troops.
    The Iranian regime has been less authoritarian than some of their recent neighbours (Syria or Iraq under Baathists, Afghanistan under the Taliban, Turkmenistan today). They have more consciously sought a degree of popular support, although their support is greater in rural areas, among ethnic Persians and among Shia Muslims and less in urban areas, the less Persian west or east, and among Iran’s religious minorities.
    Reportedly the militias killed forty thousand people in the space of a couple of days during the first protests. A quite extraordinary number.
    That gives some idea of their numbers, and brutality.

    Thats why there's a lot of doubt about bombing overthrowing the regime.
    It's possible, but it's very far from certain.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 15,427

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    I think ISIS would probably be worse. The current regime is evil, but functions somewhat as a state. ISIS is just an abbatoir.
    Ceasing to operate as a state would be an improvement. At least then people locally could fight for their freedom.

    Chaos is better than authoritarianism.
    Just for the record, Bart, what's your take on the French Revolution? [Don't say 'too early to tell.']
    Brutal, but they eventually ended up with democracy.

    Sometimes more than one revolution is required, but stability of authoritarianism does not lead to it.

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    I think ISIS would probably be worse. The current regime is evil, but functions somewhat as a state. ISIS is just an abbatoir.
    Ceasing to operate as a state would be an improvement. At least then people locally could fight for their freedom.

    Chaos is better than authoritarianism.
    Just for the record, Bart, what's your take on the French Revolution? [Don't say 'too early to tell.']
    Brutal, but they eventually ended up with democracy.

    Sometimes more than one revolution is required, but stability of authoritarianism does not lead to it.
    Thanks BArt. It wasn't a trick question. I was genuinely interested.

    Mrs PtP regularly bemoans the fact Britain never had a revolution. I never know what to say.
    Britain never did but England had a couple, which helped (with much bloodshed and harm along the way) ensure our path to Parliamentary democracy.
    Yeah, but Mrs PtP has in mind the full guillotine business with tricoteuse giggling away.

    Best not to argue with her.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,962
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The Royal Family being in a bit of jeopardy is going to make Reform's Government's job a bit easier. They are going to be too glad that someone is in power who actually likes them and wants to keep them to make much trouble (as I feared Charles would).

    Not sure that is entirely true.

    The latest Yougov poll finds Tories have the highest favourable rating for the King at +75% but then LDs at +30% are higher than Reform voters at +28% in having a positive view of Charles. Indeed Labour voters at +28% are tied with Reform voters in their view of the King with only Green voters at -11% lower.

    Reform voters have a better view of Camilla and Prince William than Labour and LD and Green voters though, albeit William has net positive ratings with all parties voters, even the Greens, while Camilla has net negative ratings with Labour, LD and Green voters
    https://ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/Internal_RoyalFamilyTracker_260109.pdf
    I mean really the leadership of the Government. Nigel is staunchly loyal that way. And he may well be in coalition with the Tories. Starmer has already been throwing the Windsors under the bus (telling Andrew to go to America) to try to save his own worthless hide. The Greens, who could massively improve their representation next time, are definitely not big Monarchists.

    To get their constitutional changes through, Reform may have to threaten to stuff the Lords. Labour has already been stuffing it in preparation for this battle. The King could cause an impasse by threatening to block this or hold it up. I now think he won't do this.
    Plenty of Reform voters think the King is too sympathetic to Islam.

    Starmer is anti Andrew (but then so are all parties now) but not the King. If Reform won a majority then the King would ultimately yes accept what they wanted but that would be the same whichever party won
    Reform voters probably think Richard the Lionheart was too sympathetic to Islam.
  • isamisam Posts: 43,683
    edited 12:39PM

    Don't often see that. Last Sri Lankan wicket was a 'hit wicket"!

    69-7

    You see it often enough in club and school cricket, but I can't remember the last time I saw it in a professional game.

    I do however remember a young Graham Gooch doing it in Australia and the Aussies didn't notice it until it was too late to appeal. Extraordinary.
    Gooch also managed to get out with a 'hit the ball twice' IIRC.
    Was that when he flicked the ball away with his hand as it was about to land on the stumps?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,779
    9 wickets down now.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 86,574

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    I think ISIS would probably be worse. The current regime is evil, but functions somewhat as a state. ISIS is just an abbatoir.
    Ceasing to operate as a state would be an improvement. At least then people locally could fight for their freedom.

    Chaos is better than authoritarianism.
    Just for the record, Bart, what's your take on the French Revolution? [Don't say 'too early to tell.']
    Brutal, but they eventually ended up with democracy.

    Sometimes more than one revolution is required, but stability of authoritarianism does not lead to it.

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    I think ISIS would probably be worse. The current regime is evil, but functions somewhat as a state. ISIS is just an abbatoir.
    Ceasing to operate as a state would be an improvement. At least then people locally could fight for their freedom.

    Chaos is better than authoritarianism.
    Just for the record, Bart, what's your take on the French Revolution? [Don't say 'too early to tell.']
    Brutal, but they eventually ended up with democracy.

    Sometimes more than one revolution is required, but stability of authoritarianism does not lead to it.
    Thanks BArt. It wasn't a trick question. I was genuinely interested.

    Mrs PtP regularly bemoans the fact Britain never had a revolution. I never know what to say.
    Britain never did but England had a couple, which helped (with much bloodshed and harm along the way) ensure our path to Parliamentary democracy.
    Yeah, but Mrs PtP has in mind the full guillotine business with tricoteuse giggling away.

    Best not to argue with her.
    Does she knit ?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,508
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    I think ISIS would probably be worse. The current regime is evil, but functions somewhat as a state. ISIS is just an abbatoir.
    Ceasing to operate as a state would be an improvement. At least then people locally could fight for their freedom.

    Chaos is better than authoritarianism.
    I think that's a bit naive.
    The regime still has millions of ideological supporters, and many thousands in the armed militia.

    A decapitation bombing campaign wouldn't even guarantee chaos. (And given the huge death toll in Iraq from their post invasion chaos, you're also being utterly blasé about what that might mean.)

    If the administration has a plan beyond drop lots of bombs, it has been kept remarkably secret. And whatever it might be, it doesn't involve US ground troops.
    The Iranian regime has been less authoritarian than some of their recent neighbours (Syria or Iraq under Baathists, Afghanistan under the Taliban, Turkmenistan today). They have more consciously sought a degree of popular support, although their support is greater in rural areas, among ethnic Persians and among Shia Muslims and less in urban areas, the less Persian west or east, and among Iran’s religious minorities.
    Reportedly the militias killed forty thousand people in the space of a couple of days during the first protests. A quite extraordinary number.
    That gives some idea of their numbers, and brutality.

    Thats why there's a lot of doubt about bombing overthrowing the regime.
    It's possible, but it's very far from certain.
    Its also why taking action is absolutely the right thing to do, in the face of such utter evil.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 15,427
    SL 95 all out.

    The PB Discipliniary Committee is going to be busy this evening.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,696

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The Royal Family being in a bit of jeopardy is going to make Reform's Government's job a bit easier. They are going to be too glad that someone is in power who actually likes them and wants to keep them to make much trouble (as I feared Charles would).

    Not sure that is entirely true.

    The latest Yougov poll finds Tories have the highest favourable rating for the King at +75% but then LDs at +30% are higher than Reform voters at +28% in having a positive view of Charles. Indeed Labour voters at +28% are tied with Reform voters in their view of the King with only Green voters at -11% lower.

    Reform voters have a better view of Camilla and Prince William than Labour and LD and Green voters though, albeit William has net positive ratings with all parties voters, even the Greens, while Camilla has net negative ratings with Labour, LD and Green voters
    https://ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/Internal_RoyalFamilyTracker_260109.pdf
    I mean really the leadership of the Government. Nigel is staunchly loyal that way. And he may well be in coalition with the Tories. Starmer has already been throwing the Windsors under the bus (telling Andrew to go to America) to try to save his own worthless hide. The Greens, who could massively improve their representation next time, are definitely not big Monarchists.

    To get their constitutional changes through, Reform may have to threaten to stuff the Lords. Labour has already been stuffing it in preparation for this battle. The King could cause an impasse by threatening to block this or hold it up. I now think he won't do this.
    Plenty of Reform voters think the King is too sympathetic to Islam.

    Starmer is anti Andrew (but then so are all parties now) but not the King. If Reform won a majority then the King would ultimately yes accept what they wanted but that would be the same whichever party won
    Reform voters probably think Richard the Lionheart was too sympathetic to Islam.
    But at least their ancestors hardly ever saw the bugger with his fancy French ways.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 15,427
    Nigelb said:

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    I think ISIS would probably be worse. The current regime is evil, but functions somewhat as a state. ISIS is just an abbatoir.
    Ceasing to operate as a state would be an improvement. At least then people locally could fight for their freedom.

    Chaos is better than authoritarianism.
    Just for the record, Bart, what's your take on the French Revolution? [Don't say 'too early to tell.']
    Brutal, but they eventually ended up with democracy.

    Sometimes more than one revolution is required, but stability of authoritarianism does not lead to it.

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    I think ISIS would probably be worse. The current regime is evil, but functions somewhat as a state. ISIS is just an abbatoir.
    Ceasing to operate as a state would be an improvement. At least then people locally could fight for their freedom.

    Chaos is better than authoritarianism.
    Just for the record, Bart, what's your take on the French Revolution? [Don't say 'too early to tell.']
    Brutal, but they eventually ended up with democracy.

    Sometimes more than one revolution is required, but stability of authoritarianism does not lead to it.
    Thanks BArt. It wasn't a trick question. I was genuinely interested.

    Mrs PtP regularly bemoans the fact Britain never had a revolution. I never know what to say.
    Britain never did but England had a couple, which helped (with much bloodshed and harm along the way) ensure our path to Parliamentary democracy.
    Yeah, but Mrs PtP has in mind the full guillotine business with tricoteuse giggling away.

    Best not to argue with her.
    Does she knit ?
    Nigelb said:

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    I think ISIS would probably be worse. The current regime is evil, but functions somewhat as a state. ISIS is just an abbatoir.
    Ceasing to operate as a state would be an improvement. At least then people locally could fight for their freedom.

    Chaos is better than authoritarianism.
    Just for the record, Bart, what's your take on the French Revolution? [Don't say 'too early to tell.']
    Brutal, but they eventually ended up with democracy.

    Sometimes more than one revolution is required, but stability of authoritarianism does not lead to it.

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    I think ISIS would probably be worse. The current regime is evil, but functions somewhat as a state. ISIS is just an abbatoir.
    Ceasing to operate as a state would be an improvement. At least then people locally could fight for their freedom.

    Chaos is better than authoritarianism.
    Just for the record, Bart, what's your take on the French Revolution? [Don't say 'too early to tell.']
    Brutal, but they eventually ended up with democracy.

    Sometimes more than one revolution is required, but stability of authoritarianism does not lead to it.
    Thanks BArt. It wasn't a trick question. I was genuinely interested.

    Mrs PtP regularly bemoans the fact Britain never had a revolution. I never know what to say.
    Britain never did but England had a couple, which helped (with much bloodshed and harm along the way) ensure our path to Parliamentary democracy.
    Yeah, but Mrs PtP has in mind the full guillotine business with tricoteuse giggling away.

    Best not to argue with her.
    Does she knit ?
    Wouldn't dare ask.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,779
    All over now; England won by 51.

    Oh ye of little faith. He says, talking to himself again!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 86,574

    Will Jacks is the greatest cricketer since Sir Donald Bradman.

    What a luxury to win before Rashid has even completed his overs.
    England's batting might be dodgy, but their bowling options in this format are superb.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 60,061
    Hands up who thought 146 was nowhere near enough runs?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,962
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Brixian59 said:

    It's hard not to be amazed by student protesters returning to the streets in Iran given what has happened.

    I don't think the UK public will back any Trump led military action. Though we also have to bear in mind Iraq, Libya etc.

    It's always what replaced the incumbent in that neck of the woods.

    There are better options.

    There are infinitely worse.

    One thing is for sure, any sign if interfering in regime change generally results in a worse outcome
    Hard to get much worse than the Ayatollahs.
    I think ISIS would probably be worse. The current regime is evil, but functions somewhat as a state. ISIS is just an abbatoir.
    Ceasing to operate as a state would be an improvement. At least then people locally could fight for their freedom.

    Chaos is better than authoritarianism.
    I think that's a bit naive.
    The regime still has millions of ideological supporters, and many thousands in the armed militia.

    A decapitation bombing campaign wouldn't even guarantee chaos. (And given the huge death toll in Iraq from their post invasion chaos, you're also being utterly blasé about what that might mean.)

    If the administration has a plan beyond drop lots of bombs, it has been kept remarkably secret. And whatever it might be, it doesn't involve US ground troops.
    The Iranian regime has been less authoritarian than some of their recent neighbours (Syria or Iraq under Baathists, Afghanistan under the Taliban, Turkmenistan today). They have more consciously sought a degree of popular support, although their support is greater in rural areas, among ethnic Persians and among Shia Muslims and less in urban areas, the less Persian west or east, and among Iran’s religious minorities.
    Reportedly the militias killed forty thousand people in the space of a couple of days during the first protests. A quite extraordinary number.
    That gives some idea of their numbers, and brutality.

    Thats why there's a lot of doubt about bombing overthrowing the regime.
    It's possible, but it's very far from certain.
    The US and Israel have bombed Iran multiple times before and the regime stayed intact. The US recently launched attacks on Venezuela and their regime stayed intact. I don’t think limited bombing attacks have much hope of budging the Iranian regime. I don’t think the Trump administration remotely has the stomach for a protracted campaign, let alone a ground attack.

    Were there to be a more significant civil uprising with support from at least some of the Iranian armed forces, then maybe selected air strikes by the US could help them, but that would require a certain degree of competence from the Americans. The experience of Venezuela was that Trump is interested in headlines and bribes over supporting opposition groups, even if opposition leaders give him their Nobel prizes.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 60,061
    isam said:

    Don't often see that. Last Sri Lankan wicket was a 'hit wicket"!

    69-7

    You see it often enough in club and school cricket, but I can't remember the last time I saw it in a professional game.

    I do however remember a young Graham Gooch doing it in Australia and the Aussies didn't notice it until it was too late to appeal. Extraordinary.
    Gooch also managed to get out with a 'hit the ball twice' IIRC.
    Was that when he flicked the ball away with his hand as it was about to land on the stumps?
    That was “handled the ball”. “Hit the ball twice” and “hit wicket” are separate reasons to get out.
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