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  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,758
    Ratters said:

    Restore pick up a further 2 direct Reform defectors on Warwickshire council

    Wow. I thought Restore were merely a fringe outfit and completely non-serious. Why are they starting to cause problems for Reform? Does Nigel need to take action here? How likely that a trickle becomes a flood?
    13 so far. Announcement every day since launch.
    I think Reform do have a (limited so far) problem
    Some chatter that this may cost Reform control of one or more of their county councils.......
    All I can think of is 'The Peoples Front front of Judea' right now.
    Reform UK vs
    Restore Britain vs
    Recover England vs Resuscitate Essex vs
    Remember Basildon...
    Abandon Hope ...
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 15,633

    Find OutNow

    Ref 28 (-1)
    Grn 18 (=)
    Con 16 (-3)
    Lab 16 (=)
    LD 10 (-1)
    Others 7 (+3)

    Ooh. Is that +3 in the "others" column the first hint of Rupertmania?
    Strongly hinted in the write up
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 57,664

    Find OutNow

    Ref 28 (-1)
    Grn 18 (=)
    Con 16 (-3)
    Lab 16 (=)
    LD 10 (-1)
    Others 7 (+3)

    Is that the lowest LibLabCon ever?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 15,067

    Find OutNow

    Ref 28 (-1)
    Grn 18 (=)
    Con 16 (-3)
    Lab 16 (=)
    LD 10 (-1)
    Others 7 (+3)

    Con+Lab 33%?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 15,633

    Find OutNow

    Ref 28 (-1)
    Grn 18 (=)
    Con 16 (-3)
    Lab 16 (=)
    LD 10 (-1)
    Others 7 (+3)

    Is that the lowest LibLabCon ever?
    Early Nov FoN was similar - 16, 15, 11 twice
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 609

    Find OutNow

    Ref 28 (-1)
    Grn 18 (=)
    Con 16 (-3)
    Lab 16 (=)
    LD 10 (-1)
    Others 7 (+3)

    Broken, sleazy Reform and LibDems on the slide.

    Find Outliers Now.
    Con to Rupe

    Not a surprise as I pointed out yesterday

    Home Counties and Tory Gentry the blue rinse vote who would never vote for Farage will love Rupe
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,923
    eek said:

    isam said:

    Well.

    Pakistan cricketers are not being considered by Indian-owned sides for next month's Hundred auction, sources have told BBC Sport.

    Players from Pakistan have not featured in the Indian Premier League (IPL) since 2009 because of diplomatic tensions between the two countries.

    Four of The Hundred's eight franchises - Manchester Super Giants, MI London, Southern Brave and Sunrisers Leeds - are now at least part-owned by companies that control IPL teams.

    In messages seen by the BBC, a senior official from the England and Wales Cricket Board (ECB) indicated to an agent that interest in his Pakistan players would be limited to sides not linked to the IPL.

    Another agent described the situation as "an unwritten rule" across T20 leagues with Indian investment.

    ECB chief executive Richard Gould said last year he expected "players from all nations to be selected for all teams" in The Hundred and warned "clear anti-discrimination policies" were in place.

    None of the four teams or ownership groups in question responded to requests for comment.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/articles/cx2gnv5w091o

    I heard Nasser Husain talking about this on the Sky Sports Cricket pod. He was saying how disgraceful it was that Pakistani players weren't allowed to play for Indian franchises, and that he hoped that wouldn't be the case in the Hundred now that Indian Consortiums have bought some sides. The rules quoted, that no players were banned from playing for any team, didn't seem convincing to me.

    Unless the rules require teams to employ Pakistan cricketers you can simply decide not to employ them...
    Nationality falls under racial discrimination laws. Difficult to prove when you are employing individual talent though, as in cricket
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 69,871

    Find OutNow

    Ref 28 (-1)
    Grn 18 (=)
    Con 16 (-3)
    Lab 16 (=)
    LD 10 (-1)
    Others 7 (+3)

    Con+Lab 33%?
    32%
  • eekeek Posts: 32,642

    isam said:

    👀 Robert Jenrick texted a copy of his speech on the economy to George Osborne after he gave it yesterday, the former chancellor reveals on @polcurrency.

    Reform’s new Treasury spokesperson said he hopes Osborne will “approve” of it.

    Jenrick wrote in full: “George, trust you’re well. Here’s a copy of a speech I gave today on the economy.

    “It commits to the OBR and to fiscal responsibility, which I hope you will approve of.”

    Osborne responded on his podcast: “I say yes, I do. Although I’m not sure I approve of much else in the Reform programme.”

    https://x.com/realbenbloch/status/2024478285044789453?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I take it this happened before Jenrick's defection, otherwise the implications are too mind blowing for words.
    Which part of "I’m not sure I approve of much else in the Reform programme.” says it's from before Jenrick's defection.

    Osbourne is saying that fiscal responsibility and the OBR are good but Reform is still beyond the pail..
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 27,681

    Battlebus said:

    Restore pick up a further 2 direct Reform defectors on Warwickshire council

    At an amateurish level I try to keep track of councillor defections. What started as a simple train-spotterish hobby has now become rather complicated. So far this year there have been defections to UKIP, Advance UK (Ben Habib's lot) and now Restore Britain. That's an awful lot of political mparties on the right who are not the Conservative party. Is there a market for a merger between Advance and Restore?
    Does it match to this? No sign of the additional Warwickshire Two yet.

    https://opencouncildata.co.uk/changes.php?y=2025

    Edit: Suggests there have been 1217 musical chairs so far 2025-2026
    https://x.com/i/status/2024506493026865345
    What a fantastic moustache.
    Shia LeBeouf has gone to seed, I think...
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 15,633
    Neither YG or MiC who have polled since Restore launchrd have found a surge yet. We have Opinium Saturday and next weeks YG and MiC will have had time for the news to sink in so we will see if this is just a FoN house effect
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 15,067

    “UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on IranThe disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands”

    I’ve just had look round everywhere. Apart from The Times, no other news organisation is touching this. Is it actually true, or will The Times take it down any moment? How could The Times have got this scoop, this side of the pond?

    It’s too risky for Starmer to believe this is actually true. Hard for me to believe he said no. Does anyone have any example of such a request turned down before? I think for Vietnam US never asked Labour government to use an RAF base at any point?

    IF true, it is a very big moment in UK US special relationship I think. But also huge implications in UK domestic politics. If Kemi says she would have given a different answer, straight away a huge and explosive differential between Conservative and Labour. Because, if any US plane goes down, with US service lives lost, anywhere in the battle space, Trump will blame the British Labour government for their deaths, and so can Farage, Kemi and Priti.

    KABOOM! now it’s kicking off.

    Tories say Starmer should let Trump dispatch US bombers to Iran from British bases
    The Conservative party has also responded to the Times story. (See 4.40pm.) They say Keir Starmer should let the Americans launch a bombing attack against Iran from Diego Garcia in the Chagos Islands.

    James Cartlidge, the shadow defence secretary, said:

    Iran’s nuclear programme has been a grave threat to Britain and our allies. That is why Conservatives supported the US strikes on Iran’s nuclear facilities last summer. Iran must never obtain a nuclear bomb.
    While speculative, if the US judges that further action is needed to deal with that specific threat, and if again we believe such action is in our national interest and to protect vital UK security interests, then we should grant the use of our bases if and where required, including RAF bases in the UK, and Diego Garcia.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 609
    Battlebus said:

    This is probably why Reform won't win G&D. Their ground game is s**t. You would have thought that sending someone who is antisemitic to the Manchester area would be a fail. Double that for the recent deaths there. They're running out of road and Nigel's media supporters are going to find it difficult to continue the pantomime.
    So where does the sizable Jewish vote go?

    LD wasted vote
    Con wasted vote
    Green a Jewish leader but not a Zionist
    Labour not for Starmer, may be for Burnham factor
    Abstain?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 66,605
    Starmer is finished
  • DoubleCarpetDoubleCarpet Posts: 981

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    Most Seats Next GE on Betfair Exchange

    Labour 15/8
    Reform 2/1
    Conservatives 13/2
    Green 10/1
    Restore 18/1
    Lib Dem 40/1

    200/1 Bar

    Incredible prices

    2/9 Lab, Reform or Conservatives cant be the worst bet in the world can it? I just can't see the Greens or Restore being anywhere close

    The issue is that -unless the prices move and you can trade earlier- you're locking your money up for a minimum of two years, and probably more like three. So that 25% return becomes 8% per year, less Befair fees.

    So, yes, probably a value bet. But there are places where you can recycling your capital more quickly.
    Its a consistently pretty liquid market - at any point you can quickly rebalance your book for a few % or gradually rebalance for a couple of %. So this is overblown as a reason not to get involved.
    Fair point. Yes, you probably should bet on Lab/Con/Reform, because a 25% chance of LibDem or Green or Repair or SNP or PC leading the seats market is too high.
    PC are only fighting 32 seats. So the chances of them being in a majority, or even really significant position are, surely, low.
    Non-existent, surely?

    More chance of Raducanu winning another Slam or anyone wearing Yankees headgear in London being able to name one of the players.
  • TazTaz Posts: 25,104

    Reforms 18 year old leader of Warwickshire CC tweeted good riddance to the 2 defectors then swiftly deleted it. Lol.

    #fallingapartpretendcabinetparty

    Doesn’t trip off the tongue to be honest.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 27,681

    Find OutNow

    Ref 28 (-1)
    Grn 18 (=)
    Con 16 (-3)
    Lab 16 (=)
    LD 10 (-1)
    Others 7 (+3)

    Poll using sample frame that contains gamblers undersamples parties favoured by Muslims (who don't gamble) shock.

    But even having said that, 18% is good for the Greens.
  • TazTaz Posts: 25,104

    isam said:

    👀 Robert Jenrick texted a copy of his speech on the economy to George Osborne after he gave it yesterday, the former chancellor reveals on @polcurrency.

    Reform’s new Treasury spokesperson said he hopes Osborne will “approve” of it.

    Jenrick wrote in full: “George, trust you’re well. Here’s a copy of a speech I gave today on the economy.

    “It commits to the OBR and to fiscal responsibility, which I hope you will approve of.”

    Osborne responded on his podcast: “I say yes, I do. Although I’m not sure I approve of much else in the Reform programme.”

    https://x.com/realbenbloch/status/2024478285044789453?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I take it this happened before Jenrick's defection, otherwise the implications are too mind blowing for words.
    Why ?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 63,289

    Andy_JS said:

    Allister Heath in the Telegraph.

    "Almost every important decision of the past 36 years, by Labour, Tories and coalition Lib Dems alike – with the exception of some of John Major’s domestic reforms, the launch of auto-enrolled pensions, the legalisation of gay marriage, Michael Gove’s school reforms and Brexit – has been a disaster or backfired in catastrophic ways. Most will need to be reversed if Britain is to be saved."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2026/02/18/the-plot-to-topple-britain-next-right-wing-government/

    It's Allister Heath, King of the unhinged headline, for goodness sake!
    It's also got a touch of the 'What have the Romans" about it. And I would like to add 'increasing the personal allowance' to the list. And peace in Northern Ireland. And I can probably think of a few more things too.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 57,857
    viewcode said:

    Find OutNow

    Ref 28 (-1)
    Grn 18 (=)
    Con 16 (-3)
    Lab 16 (=)
    LD 10 (-1)
    Others 7 (+3)

    Poll using sample frame that contains gamblers undersamples parties favoured by Muslims (who don't gamble)
    7th October was a massive gamble?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 15,067

    “UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on IranThe disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands”

    I’ve just had look round everywhere. Apart from The Times, no other news organisation is touching this. Is it actually true, or will The Times take it down any moment? How could The Times have got this scoop, this side of the pond?

    It’s too risky for Starmer to believe this is actually true. Hard for me to believe he said no. Does anyone have any example of such a request turned down before? I think for Vietnam US never asked Labour government to use an RAF base at any point?

    IF true, it is a very big moment in UK US special relationship I think. But also huge implications in UK domestic politics. If Kemi says she would have given a different answer, straight away a huge and explosive differential between Conservative and Labour. Because, if any US plane goes down, with US service lives lost, anywhere in the battle space, Trump will blame the British Labour government for their deaths, and so can Farage, Kemi and Priti.

    KABOOM! now it’s kicking off.

    Tories say Starmer should let Trump dispatch US bombers to Iran from British bases
    The Conservative party has also responded to the Times story. (See 4.40pm.) They say Keir Starmer should let the Americans launch a bombing attack against Iran from Diego Garcia in the Chagos Islands.

    James Cartlidge, the shadow defence secretary, said:

    Iran’s nuclear programme has been a grave threat to Britain and our allies. That is why Conservatives supported the US strikes on Iran’s nuclear facilities last summer. Iran must never obtain a nuclear bomb.
    While speculative, if the US judges that further action is needed to deal with that specific threat, and if again we believe such action is in our national interest and to protect vital UK security interests, then we should grant the use of our bases if and where required, including RAF bases in the UK, and Diego Garcia.
    The Shadow Defence Secretary understands we have an RAF base somewhere in Diego Garcia? Well it’s his job to know I suppose. The Leader of the Liberal Democrat’s believe we have an RAF base somewhere in Diego Garcia too. Must be me that’s wrong then, I didn’t think we did.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,177
    edited 5:05PM
    FPT for @MoonRabbit .

    MattW said:

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    That's a positive.
    It’s very very risky from Starmer. Hard to believe he said no.

    It is a very big moment in UK US special relationship I think. Does anyone have any example of such a request turned down before? I think for Vietnam US never asked Labour government to use an RAF base at any point?

    If Kemi says she would have given a different answer, straight away a huge and explosive differential between Conservative and Labour. Because, if any US plane goes down, with U’S service lives lost, anywhere in the battle space, Trump will blame the British Labour government for their deaths.
    Yes - I have such an example.

    The Conservative Government in 2012 rebuffed any attempt to use Diego-Garcia for a pre-emptive attack on Iran in advance, because they had official legal advice that could be against international law.

    The Guardian has been told that US diplomats have also lobbied for the use of British bases in Cyprus, and for permission to fly from US bases on Ascension Island in the Atlantic and Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, both of which are British territories.
    ..
    The UK would be in breach of international law if it facilitated what amounted to a pre-emptive strike on Iran," said a senior Whitehall source. "It is explicit. The government has been using this to push back against the Americans."
    ..
    "I think the US has been surprised that ministers have been reluctant to provide assurances about this kind of upfront assistance," said one source. "They'd expect resistance from senior Liberal Democrats, but it's Tories as well. That has come as a bit of a surprise."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/25/uk-reject-us-request-bases-iran

    It will be fun if SKS finds that, given that the Shadow Def Sec is jumping up and down demanding the Govt do the opposite.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 15,633
    28% is Reforns joint lowest with FoN since early April and what they were averaging with them a year ago before the 'surge'
    So as well as the others score worth watching if Reform start breaching post LE 2025 lows with other pollsters

    16 is just 2 points above both Con and Labs bottom and 10 is the LDs lowest ever with FoN

    Carnage for all except Green
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 57,664
    MattW said:

    FPT for @MoonRabbit .

    MattW said:

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    That's a positive.
    It’s very very risky from Starmer. Hard to believe he said no.

    It is a very big moment in UK US special relationship I think. Does anyone have any example of such a request turned down before? I think for Vietnam US never asked Labour government to use an RAF base at any point?

    If Kemi says she would have given a different answer, straight away a huge and explosive differential between Conservative and Labour. Because, if any US plane goes down, with U’S service lives lost, anywhere in the battle space, Trump will blame the British Labour government for their deaths.
    Yes - I have such an example.

    The Conservative Government in 2012 rebuffed any attempt to use Diego-Garcia for a pre-emptive attack on Iran, because they had official legal advice that could be against international law.

    The Guardian has been told that US diplomats have also lobbied for the use of British bases in Cyprus, and for permission to fly from US bases on Ascension Island in the Atlantic and Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, both of which are British territories.
    ..
    The UK would be in breach of international law if it facilitated what amounted to a pre-emptive strike on Iran," said a senior Whitehall source. "It is explicit. The government has been using this to push back against the Americans."
    ..
    "I think the US has been surprised that ministers have been reluctant to provide assurances about this kind of upfront assistance," said one source. "They'd expect resistance from senior Liberal Democrats, but it's Tories as well. That has come as a bit of a surprise."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/25/uk-reject-us-request-bases-iran

    It will be fun if SKS finds that, given that the Shadow Def Sec is jumping up and down demanding the Govt do the opposite.
    Surely SKS's view is that under international law, it's for Mauritius to decide, not us?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 57,857

    Find OutNow

    Ref 28 (-1)
    Grn 18 (=)
    Con 16 (-3)
    Lab 16 (=)
    LD 10 (-1)
    Others 7 (+3)

    Broken, sleazy Reform and LibDems on the slide.

    Find Outliers Now.
    Oops and sleazy Tories too!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 70,223
    David Yelland
    @davidyelland

    Gordon Brown's journalism on Andrew continues, he now says he has sent a five page document to a number of police forces about flight rosters at Stansted and other airports. Another extraordinary element of this crisis is the former PM's service here.

    https://x.com/davidyelland/status/2024466986508435711
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,660
    MattW said:

    FPT for @MoonRabbit .

    MattW said:

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    That's a positive.
    It’s very very risky from Starmer. Hard to believe he said no.

    It is a very big moment in UK US special relationship I think. Does anyone have any example of such a request turned down before? I think for Vietnam US never asked Labour government to use an RAF base at any point?

    If Kemi says she would have given a different answer, straight away a huge and explosive differential between Conservative and Labour. Because, if any US plane goes down, with U’S service lives lost, anywhere in the battle space, Trump will blame the British Labour government for their deaths.
    Yes - I have such an example.

    The Conservative Government in 2012 rebuffed any attempt to use Diego-Garcia for a pre-emptive attack on Iran, because they had official legal advice that could be against international law.

    The Guardian has been told that US diplomats have also lobbied for the use of British bases in Cyprus, and for permission to fly from US bases on Ascension Island in the Atlantic and Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, both of which are British territories.
    ..
    The UK would be in breach of international law if it facilitated what amounted to a pre-emptive strike on Iran," said a senior Whitehall source. "It is explicit. The government has been using this to push back against the Americans."
    ..
    "I think the US has been surprised that ministers have been reluctant to provide assurances about this kind of upfront assistance," said one source. "They'd expect resistance from senior Liberal Democrats, but it's Tories as well. That has come as a bit of a surprise."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/25/uk-reject-us-request-bases-iran

    It will be fun if SKS finds that, given that the Shadow Def Sec is jumping up and down demanding the Govt do the opposite.
    That was 2012, when Dave was PM.

    It might as well have been 1912 for all its relevance to how the Conservatives think today.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 609

    MattW said:

    FPT for @MoonRabbit .

    MattW said:

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    That's a positive.
    It’s very very risky from Starmer. Hard to believe he said no.

    It is a very big moment in UK US special relationship I think. Does anyone have any example of such a request turned down before? I think for Vietnam US never asked Labour government to use an RAF base at any point?

    If Kemi says she would have given a different answer, straight away a huge and explosive differential between Conservative and Labour. Because, if any US plane goes down, with U’S service lives lost, anywhere in the battle space, Trump will blame the British Labour government for their deaths.
    Yes - I have such an example.

    The Conservative Government in 2012 rebuffed any attempt to use Diego-Garcia for a pre-emptive attack on Iran, because they had official legal advice that could be against international law.

    The Guardian has been told that US diplomats have also lobbied for the use of British bases in Cyprus, and for permission to fly from US bases on Ascension Island in the Atlantic and Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, both of which are British territories.
    ..
    The UK would be in breach of international law if it facilitated what amounted to a pre-emptive strike on Iran," said a senior Whitehall source. "It is explicit. The government has been using this to push back against the Americans."
    ..
    "I think the US has been surprised that ministers have been reluctant to provide assurances about this kind of upfront assistance," said one source. "They'd expect resistance from senior Liberal Democrats, but it's Tories as well. That has come as a bit of a surprise."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/25/uk-reject-us-request-bases-iran

    It will be fun if SKS finds that, given that the Shadow Def Sec is jumping up and down demanding the Govt do the opposite.
    Surely SKS's view is that under international law, it's for Mauritius to decide, not us?
    Thats why he's declined.

    Thats why Trump has had a hissy fit

    Thats why Pritti and Badenoch look utterly stupid in attacking him
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 15,633
    edited 5:10PM
    Brixian59 said:

    MattW said:

    FPT for @MoonRabbit .

    MattW said:

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    That's a positive.
    It’s very very risky from Starmer. Hard to believe he said no.

    It is a very big moment in UK US special relationship I think. Does anyone have any example of such a request turned down before? I think for Vietnam US never asked Labour government to use an RAF base at any point?

    If Kemi says she would have given a different answer, straight away a huge and explosive differential between Conservative and Labour. Because, if any US plane goes down, with U’S service lives lost, anywhere in the battle space, Trump will blame the British Labour government for their deaths.
    Yes - I have such an example.

    The Conservative Government in 2012 rebuffed any attempt to use Diego-Garcia for a pre-emptive attack on Iran, because they had official legal advice that could be against international law.

    The Guardian has been told that US diplomats have also lobbied for the use of British bases in Cyprus, and for permission to fly from US bases on Ascension Island in the Atlantic and Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, both of which are British territories.
    ..
    The UK would be in breach of international law if it facilitated what amounted to a pre-emptive strike on Iran," said a senior Whitehall source. "It is explicit. The government has been using this to push back against the Americans."
    ..
    "I think the US has been surprised that ministers have been reluctant to provide assurances about this kind of upfront assistance," said one source. "They'd expect resistance from senior Liberal Democrats, but it's Tories as well. That has come as a bit of a surprise."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/25/uk-reject-us-request-bases-iran

    It will be fun if SKS finds that, given that the Shadow Def Sec is jumping up and down demanding the Govt do the opposite.
    Surely SKS's view is that under international law, it's for Mauritius to decide, not us?
    Thats why he's declined.

    Thats why Trump has had a hissy fit

    Thats why Pritti and Badenoch look utterly stupid in attacking him
    The treaty with Mauritius is not in effect. And they will have no say in operational decisions even it does take effect
  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,177
    edited 5:14PM

    MattW said:

    FPT for @MoonRabbit .

    MattW said:

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    That's a positive.
    It’s very very risky from Starmer. Hard to believe he said no.

    It is a very big moment in UK US special relationship I think. Does anyone have any example of such a request turned down before? I think for Vietnam US never asked Labour government to use an RAF base at any point?

    If Kemi says she would have given a different answer, straight away a huge and explosive differential between Conservative and Labour. Because, if any US plane goes down, with U’S service lives lost, anywhere in the battle space, Trump will blame the British Labour government for their deaths.
    Yes - I have such an example.

    The Conservative Government in 2012 rebuffed any attempt to use Diego-Garcia for a pre-emptive attack on Iran, because they had official legal advice that could be against international law.

    The Guardian has been told that US diplomats have also lobbied for the use of British bases in Cyprus, and for permission to fly from US bases on Ascension Island in the Atlantic and Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, both of which are British territories.
    ..
    The UK would be in breach of international law if it facilitated what amounted to a pre-emptive strike on Iran," said a senior Whitehall source. "It is explicit. The government has been using this to push back against the Americans."
    ..
    "I think the US has been surprised that ministers have been reluctant to provide assurances about this kind of upfront assistance," said one source. "They'd expect resistance from senior Liberal Democrats, but it's Tories as well. That has come as a bit of a surprise."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/25/uk-reject-us-request-bases-iran

    It will be fun if SKS finds that, given that the Shadow Def Sec is jumping up and down demanding the Govt do the opposite.
    Surely SKS's view is that under international law, it's for Mauritius to decide, not us?
    Red herring I think. The lease agreement on the base is between us and the USA. No agreement is in place with Mauritius yet.

    The law is not even passed, which is why there is still mileage in flapping.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 609

    Find OutNow

    Ref 28 (-1)
    Grn 18 (=)
    Con 16 (-3)
    Lab 16 (=)
    LD 10 (-1)
    Others 7 (+3)

    Broken, sleazy Reform and LibDems on the slide.

    Find Outliers Now.
    Oops and sleazy Tories too!
    Rupe will attract very few Labour voters minimal.

    Rupe will attract sizable Tory voters because he's everything Farage isn't.

    I can forsee JRM joining Rupe, possibly McVey and Davies too.

    Critical time for Nige and Kemi
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,006

    MattW said:

    FPT for @MoonRabbit .

    MattW said:

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    That's a positive.
    It’s very very risky from Starmer. Hard to believe he said no.

    It is a very big moment in UK US special relationship I think. Does anyone have any example of such a request turned down before? I think for Vietnam US never asked Labour government to use an RAF base at any point?

    If Kemi says she would have given a different answer, straight away a huge and explosive differential between Conservative and Labour. Because, if any US plane goes down, with U’S service lives lost, anywhere in the battle space, Trump will blame the British Labour government for their deaths.
    Yes - I have such an example.

    The Conservative Government in 2012 rebuffed any attempt to use Diego-Garcia for a pre-emptive attack on Iran, because they had official legal advice that could be against international law.

    The Guardian has been told that US diplomats have also lobbied for the use of British bases in Cyprus, and for permission to fly from US bases on Ascension Island in the Atlantic and Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, both of which are British territories.
    ..
    The UK would be in breach of international law if it facilitated what amounted to a pre-emptive strike on Iran," said a senior Whitehall source. "It is explicit. The government has been using this to push back against the Americans."
    ..
    "I think the US has been surprised that ministers have been reluctant to provide assurances about this kind of upfront assistance," said one source. "They'd expect resistance from senior Liberal Democrats, but it's Tories as well. That has come as a bit of a surprise."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/25/uk-reject-us-request-bases-iran

    It will be fun if SKS finds that, given that the Shadow Def Sec is jumping up and down demanding the Govt do the opposite.
    Surely SKS's view is that under international law, it's for Mauritius to decide, not us?
    Taking it purely at face value; no.

    Firstly because the handover to Mauritius has not happened yet so it is still a British decision.

    And secondly because as I understand it the agreement with Mauritius when it does eventually pass will prevent them from interferring with US/UK operational usage of DG.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,177
    edited 5:13PM

    MattW said:

    FPT for @MoonRabbit .

    MattW said:

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    That's a positive.
    It’s very very risky from Starmer. Hard to believe he said no.

    It is a very big moment in UK US special relationship I think. Does anyone have any example of such a request turned down before? I think for Vietnam US never asked Labour government to use an RAF base at any point?

    If Kemi says she would have given a different answer, straight away a huge and explosive differential between Conservative and Labour. Because, if any US plane goes down, with U’S service lives lost, anywhere in the battle space, Trump will blame the British Labour government for their deaths.
    Yes - I have such an example.

    The Conservative Government in 2012 rebuffed any attempt to use Diego-Garcia for a pre-emptive attack on Iran, because they had official legal advice that could be against international law.

    The Guardian has been told that US diplomats have also lobbied for the use of British bases in Cyprus, and for permission to fly from US bases on Ascension Island in the Atlantic and Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, both of which are British territories.
    ..
    The UK would be in breach of international law if it facilitated what amounted to a pre-emptive strike on Iran," said a senior Whitehall source. "It is explicit. The government has been using this to push back against the Americans."
    ..
    "I think the US has been surprised that ministers have been reluctant to provide assurances about this kind of upfront assistance," said one source. "They'd expect resistance from senior Liberal Democrats, but it's Tories as well. That has come as a bit of a surprise."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/25/uk-reject-us-request-bases-iran

    It will be fun if SKS finds that, given that the Shadow Def Sec is jumping up and down demanding the Govt do the opposite.
    That was 2012, when Dave was PM.

    It might as well have been 1912 for all its relevance to how the Conservatives think today.
    That's cruel. Are you suggesting that today's - outside PB - Conservatives think?
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,687
    Taz said:

    isam said:

    👀 Robert Jenrick texted a copy of his speech on the economy to George Osborne after he gave it yesterday, the former chancellor reveals on @polcurrency.

    Reform’s new Treasury spokesperson said he hopes Osborne will “approve” of it.

    Jenrick wrote in full: “George, trust you’re well. Here’s a copy of a speech I gave today on the economy.

    “It commits to the OBR and to fiscal responsibility, which I hope you will approve of.”

    Osborne responded on his podcast: “I say yes, I do. Although I’m not sure I approve of much else in the Reform programme.”

    https://x.com/realbenbloch/status/2024478285044789453?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I take it this happened before Jenrick's defection, otherwise the implications are too mind blowing for words.
    Why ?
    Because the only blow that Labour has been able to land on Reform - that they're a bunch of fading Tories who were all up for austerity - has now received a gold-plated endorsement from Jenrick himself. How can Reform portray themselves as the wreckers of the old order when their would-be CoE is craving approval - and receiving it - from his hero and mentor Osborne? Nigel will need to sack Jenrick on grounds of treason.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 70,223
    Leon said:

    Starmer is finished

    Come on old chap, give Romeo a chance.

  • RogerRoger Posts: 22,163

    Andy_JS said:

    Allister Heath in the Telegraph.

    "Almost every important decision of the past 36 years, by Labour, Tories and coalition Lib Dems alike – with the exception of some of John Major’s domestic reforms, the launch of auto-enrolled pensions, the legalisation of gay marriage, Michael Gove’s school reforms and Brexit – has been a disaster or backfired in catastrophic ways. Most will need to be reversed if Britain is to be saved."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2026/02/18/the-plot-to-topple-britain-next-right-wing-government/

    It's Allister Heath, King of the unhinged headline, for goodness sake!
    He shouldn't be working that's for sure. It's just rubbish
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 63,289
    DougSeal said:

    David Yelland
    @davidyelland

    Gordon Brown's journalism on Andrew continues, he now says he has sent a five page document to a number of police forces about flight rosters at Stansted and other airports. Another extraordinary element of this crisis is the former PM's service here.

    https://x.com/davidyelland/status/2024466986508435711

    Absolutely. Deeply flawed as he is I've always thought Brown was a fundamentally decent human being - for a politician anyway.
    It's a pretty low bar when you add that proviso, though.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 609
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    FPT for @MoonRabbit .

    MattW said:

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    That's a positive.
    It’s very very risky from Starmer. Hard to believe he said no.

    It is a very big moment in UK US special relationship I think. Does anyone have any example of such a request turned down before? I think for Vietnam US never asked Labour government to use an RAF base at any point?

    If Kemi says she would have given a different answer, straight away a huge and explosive differential between Conservative and Labour. Because, if any US plane goes down, with U’S service lives lost, anywhere in the battle space, Trump will blame the British Labour government for their deaths.
    Yes - I have such an example.

    The Conservative Government in 2012 rebuffed any attempt to use Diego-Garcia for a pre-emptive attack on Iran, because they had official legal advice that could be against international law.

    The Guardian has been told that US diplomats have also lobbied for the use of British bases in Cyprus, and for permission to fly from US bases on Ascension Island in the Atlantic and Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, both of which are British territories.
    ..
    The UK would be in breach of international law if it facilitated what amounted to a pre-emptive strike on Iran," said a senior Whitehall source. "It is explicit. The government has been using this to push back against the Americans."
    ..
    "I think the US has been surprised that ministers have been reluctant to provide assurances about this kind of upfront assistance," said one source. "They'd expect resistance from senior Liberal Democrats, but it's Tories as well. That has come as a bit of a surprise."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/25/uk-reject-us-request-bases-iran

    It will be fun if SKS finds that, given that the Shadow Def Sec is jumping up and down demanding the Govt do the opposite.
    That was 2012, when Dave was PM.

    It might as well have been 1912 for all its relevance to how the Conservatives think today.
    That's cruel. Are you suggesting that today's - outside PB - Conservatives think?
    Are Badenoch, Stride, Philp, Atkins, Whstely, Trott, Patel, Coutinho and Co capable of thought.

    Not exactly laden with brain cells

    Cameron is a colossus in comparison
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 13,248
    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:

    David Yelland
    @davidyelland

    Gordon Brown's journalism on Andrew continues, he now says he has sent a five page document to a number of police forces about flight rosters at Stansted and other airports. Another extraordinary element of this crisis is the former PM's service here.

    https://x.com/davidyelland/status/2024466986508435711

    Absolutely. Deeply flawed as he is I've always thought Brown was a fundamentally decent human being - for a politician anyway.
    It's a pretty low bar when you add that proviso, though.
    I couldn't comment.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 66,605
    You not only read lots of X, you actually follow the lefty weirdo Iain Darcy?!
  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,177
    edited 5:25PM
    Brixian59 said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    FPT for @MoonRabbit .

    MattW said:

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    That's a positive.
    It’s very very risky from Starmer. Hard to believe he said no.

    It is a very big moment in UK US special relationship I think. Does anyone have any example of such a request turned down before? I think for Vietnam US never asked Labour government to use an RAF base at any point?

    If Kemi says she would have given a different answer, straight away a huge and explosive differential between Conservative and Labour. Because, if any US plane goes down, with U’S service lives lost, anywhere in the battle space, Trump will blame the British Labour government for their deaths.
    Yes - I have such an example.

    The Conservative Government in 2012 rebuffed any attempt to use Diego-Garcia for a pre-emptive attack on Iran, because they had official legal advice that could be against international law.

    The Guardian has been told that US diplomats have also lobbied for the use of British bases in Cyprus, and for permission to fly from US bases on Ascension Island in the Atlantic and Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, both of which are British territories.
    ..
    The UK would be in breach of international law if it facilitated what amounted to a pre-emptive strike on Iran," said a senior Whitehall source. "It is explicit. The government has been using this to push back against the Americans."
    ..
    "I think the US has been surprised that ministers have been reluctant to provide assurances about this kind of upfront assistance," said one source. "They'd expect resistance from senior Liberal Democrats, but it's Tories as well. That has come as a bit of a surprise."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/25/uk-reject-us-request-bases-iran

    It will be fun if SKS finds that, given that the Shadow Def Sec is jumping up and down demanding the Govt do the opposite.
    That was 2012, when Dave was PM.

    It might as well have been 1912 for all its relevance to how the Conservatives think today.
    That's cruel. Are you suggesting that today's - outside PB - Conservatives think?
    Are Badenoch, Stride, Philp, Atkins, Whstely, Trott, Patel, Coutinho and Co capable of thought.

    Not exactly laden with brain cells

    Cameron is a colossus in comparison
    We need two more Reform MPs with single syllable names, then we have a hope of getting the "Trumpton Fire Brigade" rhythm in the wild,

    We need a lineup on stage going in syllables 1-1-2-2, 2-2-1.

    (The last 3 words could be Farage - in-the - Pub.)
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 609

    Leon said:

    Starmer is finished

    Come on old chap, give Romeo a chance.

    Whenever Starmer stands up to Trump his I popularity score eases...

    More please
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 15,067
    edited 5:30PM
    MattW said:

    FPT for @MoonRabbit .

    MattW said:

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    That's a positive.
    It’s very very risky from Starmer. Hard to believe he said no.

    It is a very big moment in UK US special relationship I think. Does anyone have any example of such a request turned down before? I think for Vietnam US never asked Labour government to use an RAF base at any point?

    If Kemi says she would have given a different answer, straight away a huge and explosive differential between Conservative and Labour. Because, if any US plane goes down, with U’S service lives lost, anywhere in the battle space, Trump will blame the British Labour government for their deaths.
    Yes - I have such an example.

    The Conservative Government in 2012 rebuffed any attempt to use Diego-Garcia for a pre-emptive attack on Iran in advance, because they had official legal advice that could be against international law.

    The Guardian has been told that US diplomats have also lobbied for the use of British bases in Cyprus, and for permission to fly from US bases on Ascension Island in the Atlantic and Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, both of which are British territories.
    ..
    The UK would be in breach of international law if it facilitated what amounted to a pre-emptive strike on Iran," said a senior Whitehall source. "It is explicit. The government has been using this to push back against the Americans."
    ..
    "I think the US has been surprised that ministers have been reluctant to provide assurances about this kind of upfront assistance," said one source. "They'd expect resistance from senior Liberal Democrats, but it's Tories as well. That has come as a bit of a surprise."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/25/uk-reject-us-request-bases-iran

    It will be fun if SKS finds that, given that the Shadow Def Sec is jumping up and down demanding the Govt do the opposite.
    From The Times.
    “Under the terms of long-standing agreements with Washington, these bases {Times includes Diego Garcia} can only be used for military operations that have been agreed in advance with the government.

    I suspect The Times journalism is wrong, and no such agreement applies to Diego Garcia. It’s not an RAF base, it’s not even a joint base, it’s a US base. It seems very odd to me, based on the whole history of UK involvement with the US in Chagos, where UK have been so subservient, the US would allow such a clause on use of their own base.

    As for 2012 and all that, the UK government would try to bundle DG in with the others to aid their pushback - but they were likely wrong. Technically UK island, but not UK base.
  • TazTaz Posts: 25,104

    Find OutNow

    Ref 28 (-1)
    Grn 18 (=)
    Con 16 (-3)
    Lab 16 (=)
    LD 10 (-1)
    Others 7 (+3)

    Con+Lab 33%?
    😂😂
  • prh47bridgeprh47bridge Posts: 500
    DavidL said:

    Did he not get the £12m from his mum? Not sure how you make much of a story out of that.

    In terms of containing the scandal, however, the spend seems to have been suboptimal.

    We don't actually know how much was paid. The £12 million figure was speculation by the Daily Telegraph. Other sources suggested the figure was much lower - possibly around £3 million.

    There are various reports as to where the money came from. Some suggested that his mother funded part of it, other sources say Charles gave him the money as a loan to be repaid when Andrew sold his Swiss chalet, with it being deducted from his inheritance from the Queen if it was not paid back.

    The wide variety of figures quoted for the settlement and the differing reports on how it was paid suggest to me that the journalists involved had no information and were guessing. I think the only thing we know for sure is that no public money was used to pay Andrew's legal fees or the settlement as the Treasury confirmed that in response to an FOI request.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 15,067
    Taz said:

    Find OutNow

    Ref 28 (-1)
    Grn 18 (=)
    Con 16 (-3)
    Lab 16 (=)
    LD 10 (-1)
    Others 7 (+3)

    Con+Lab 33%?
    😂😂
    Stop it 😠
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,435

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    Shame on Starmer if so.
    I’m not going to rise to replying to the uninformed, unChristian warmonger bile you are continually posting.
    I am an atheist. Could not care less about being unChristian.

    Wanting the liberation of Iranians from their brutal dictatorship is not bile.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 13,248
    Leon said:

    You not only read lots of X, you actually follow the lefty weirdo Iain Darcy?!
    Come across him before. I've tried, so far without success, to find out who Iain Darcy actually is. He calls himself a doctor and claims to be a lawyer. There is no Iain Darcy admitted to the Roll of Solicitors, nor called to the Bar, in England and Wales (there are a couple of Ian Darcys on the Roll but none with an extra 'i')). One of those weird X/Twitter personas.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 69,871
    Let's be honest

    The public have lost faith in all our politicians and the electorate are as divided as ever

    That is because they have all failed to live upto their hype and promises

    Indeed the country may well be ungovernable, and we can all be as partisan as we want but 'nobody' is cutting the mustard

    AMW investigations, bearing in mind he has been arrested for misconduct in public office and not the Epstein allegations, may well develop into why the late queen and charles funded the 12 million payment

    Brown is furious with AMW, but also Mandelson and this looks like it is going back to the Blair years

    We also have no idea what may be revealed of Mandelson's time as Ambassador

    I expect there are many more public figures and politicians daily watching on in growing alarm
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 609

    MattW said:

    FPT for @MoonRabbit .

    MattW said:

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    That's a positive.
    It’s very very risky from Starmer. Hard to believe he said no.

    It is a very big moment in UK US special relationship I think. Does anyone have any example of such a request turned down before? I think for Vietnam US never asked Labour government to use an RAF base at any point?

    If Kemi says she would have given a different answer, straight away a huge and explosive differential between Conservative and Labour. Because, if any US plane goes down, with U’S service lives lost, anywhere in the battle space, Trump will blame the British Labour government for their deaths.
    Yes - I have such an example.

    The Conservative Government in 2012 rebuffed any attempt to use Diego-Garcia for a pre-emptive attack on Iran in advance, because they had official legal advice that could be against international law.

    The Guardian has been told that US diplomats have also lobbied for the use of British bases in Cyprus, and for permission to fly from US bases on Ascension Island in the Atlantic and Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, both of which are British territories.
    ..
    The UK would be in breach of international law if it facilitated what amounted to a pre-emptive strike on Iran," said a senior Whitehall source. "It is explicit. The government has been using this to push back against the Americans."
    ..
    "I think the US has been surprised that ministers have been reluctant to provide assurances about this kind of upfront assistance," said one source. "They'd expect resistance from senior Liberal Democrats, but it's Tories as well. That has come as a bit of a surprise."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/25/uk-reject-us-request-bases-iran

    It will be fun if SKS finds that, given that the Shadow Def Sec is jumping up and down demanding the Govt do the opposite.
    From The Times.
    “Under the terms of long-standing agreements with Washington, these bases {Times includes Diego Garcia} can only be used for military operations that have been agreed in advance with the government.

    I suspect The Times journalism is wrong, and no such agreement applies to Diego Garcia. It’s not an RAF base, it’s not even a joint base, it’s a US base. It seems very odd to me, based on the whole history of UK involvement with the US in Chagos, where UK have been so subservient, the US would allow such a clause on use of their own base.

    As for 2012 and all that, the UK government would try to bundle DG in with the others to aid their pushback - but they were likely wrong. Technically UK island, but not UK base.
    Either way Starmer and Davey stand up to Trump

    Badenoch and Farage lie down sunserviently

    In the court of public opinion I'd say Keir and Ed have it 70 to 30.

  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 15,067

    MattW said:

    FPT for @MoonRabbit .

    MattW said:

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    That's a positive.
    It’s very very risky from Starmer. Hard to believe he said no.

    It is a very big moment in UK US special relationship I think. Does anyone have any example of such a request turned down before? I think for Vietnam US never asked Labour government to use an RAF base at any point?

    If Kemi says she would have given a different answer, straight away a huge and explosive differential between Conservative and Labour. Because, if any US plane goes down, with U’S service lives lost, anywhere in the battle space, Trump will blame the British Labour government for their deaths.
    Yes - I have such an example.

    The Conservative Government in 2012 rebuffed any attempt to use Diego-Garcia for a pre-emptive attack on Iran, because they had official legal advice that could be against international law.

    The Guardian has been told that US diplomats have also lobbied for the use of British bases in Cyprus, and for permission to fly from US bases on Ascension Island in the Atlantic and Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, both of which are British territories.
    ..
    The UK would be in breach of international law if it facilitated what amounted to a pre-emptive strike on Iran," said a senior Whitehall source. "It is explicit. The government has been using this to push back against the Americans."
    ..
    "I think the US has been surprised that ministers have been reluctant to provide assurances about this kind of upfront assistance," said one source. "They'd expect resistance from senior Liberal Democrats, but it's Tories as well. That has come as a bit of a surprise."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/25/uk-reject-us-request-bases-iran

    It will be fun if SKS finds that, given that the Shadow Def Sec is jumping up and down demanding the Govt do the opposite.
    Surely SKS's view is that under international law, it's for Mauritius to decide, not us?
    Taking it purely at face value; no.

    Firstly because the handover to Mauritius has not happened yet so it is still a British decision.

    And secondly because as I understand it the agreement with Mauritius when it does eventually pass will prevent them from interferring with US/UK operational usage of DG.
    Absolutely right Richard. The Conservatives agreed exactly this in the first rounds of negotiating the deal -

    “Key developments in 2023 included:
    *
    * Constructive Dialogue Framework: Both nations held several rounds of intensive talks (notably in January and February 2023) to build "mutual understanding" on complex sovereignty and security issues.

    * Strategic Alignment: Both governments focused on ensuring the continued operation of the joint UK/US military base on Diego Garcia while addressing the issue of sovereignty.
    *
    * Base Security Commitment: Both parties reiterated their commitment to ensuring the continued, effective operation of the joint UK-US military base on Diego Garcia.”

    Mauritius cannot block US bombing missions, which makes me surprised the UK apparently can.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 70,223
    It is 36 degrees today in parts of Russia apparently.

    36 degrees in Winter.
  • isamisam Posts: 43,671
    Brixian59 said:

    MattW said:

    FPT for @MoonRabbit .

    MattW said:

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    That's a positive.
    It’s very very risky from Starmer. Hard to believe he said no.

    It is a very big moment in UK US special relationship I think. Does anyone have any example of such a request turned down before? I think for Vietnam US never asked Labour government to use an RAF base at any point?

    If Kemi says she would have given a different answer, straight away a huge and explosive differential between Conservative and Labour. Because, if any US plane goes down, with U’S service lives lost, anywhere in the battle space, Trump will blame the British Labour government for their deaths.
    Yes - I have such an example.

    The Conservative Government in 2012 rebuffed any attempt to use Diego-Garcia for a pre-emptive attack on Iran in advance, because they had official legal advice that could be against international law.

    The Guardian has been told that US diplomats have also lobbied for the use of British bases in Cyprus, and for permission to fly from US bases on Ascension Island in the Atlantic and Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, both of which are British territories.
    ..
    The UK would be in breach of international law if it facilitated what amounted to a pre-emptive strike on Iran," said a senior Whitehall source. "It is explicit. The government has been using this to push back against the Americans."
    ..
    "I think the US has been surprised that ministers have been reluctant to provide assurances about this kind of upfront assistance," said one source. "They'd expect resistance from senior Liberal Democrats, but it's Tories as well. That has come as a bit of a surprise."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/25/uk-reject-us-request-bases-iran

    It will be fun if SKS finds that, given that the Shadow Def Sec is jumping up and down demanding the Govt do the opposite.
    From The Times.
    “Under the terms of long-standing agreements with Washington, these bases {Times includes Diego Garcia} can only be used for military operations that have been agreed in advance with the government.

    I suspect The Times journalism is wrong, and no such agreement applies to Diego Garcia. It’s not an RAF base, it’s not even a joint base, it’s a US base. It seems very odd to me, based on the whole history of UK involvement with the US in Chagos, where UK have been so subservient, the US would allow such a clause on use of their own base.

    As for 2012 and all that, the UK government would try to bundle DG in with the others to aid their pushback - but they were likely wrong. Technically UK island, but not UK base.
    Either way Starmer and Davey stand up to Trump

    Badenoch and Farage lie down sunserviently

    In the court of public opinion I'd say Keir and Ed have it 70 to 30.

    Jesus! After adjusting for bias that's a walkover for Kemi and Nige
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,923

    MattW said:

    FPT for @MoonRabbit .

    MattW said:

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    That's a positive.
    It’s very very risky from Starmer. Hard to believe he said no.

    It is a very big moment in UK US special relationship I think. Does anyone have any example of such a request turned down before? I think for Vietnam US never asked Labour government to use an RAF base at any point?

    If Kemi says she would have given a different answer, straight away a huge and explosive differential between Conservative and Labour. Because, if any US plane goes down, with U’S service lives lost, anywhere in the battle space, Trump will blame the British Labour government for their deaths.
    Yes - I have such an example.

    The Conservative Government in 2012 rebuffed any attempt to use Diego-Garcia for a pre-emptive attack on Iran in advance, because they had official legal advice that could be against international law.

    The Guardian has been told that US diplomats have also lobbied for the use of British bases in Cyprus, and for permission to fly from US bases on Ascension Island in the Atlantic and Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, both of which are British territories.
    ..
    The UK would be in breach of international law if it facilitated what amounted to a pre-emptive strike on Iran," said a senior Whitehall source. "It is explicit. The government has been using this to push back against the Americans."
    ..
    "I think the US has been surprised that ministers have been reluctant to provide assurances about this kind of upfront assistance," said one source. "They'd expect resistance from senior Liberal Democrats, but it's Tories as well. That has come as a bit of a surprise."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/25/uk-reject-us-request-bases-iran

    It will be fun if SKS finds that, given that the Shadow Def Sec is jumping up and down demanding the Govt do the opposite.
    From The Times.
    “Under the terms of long-standing agreements with Washington, these bases {Times includes Diego Garcia} can only be used for military operations that have been agreed in advance with the government.

    I suspect The Times journalism is wrong, and no such agreement applies to Diego Garcia. It’s not an RAF base, it’s not even a joint base, it’s a US base. It seems very odd to me, based on the whole history of UK involvement with the US in Chagos, where UK have been so subservient, the US would allow such a clause on use of their own base.

    As for 2012 and all that, the UK government would try to bundle DG in with the others to aid their pushback - but they were likely wrong. Technically UK island, but not UK base.
    It is a UK base, we call it a Permanent Joint Operating Base https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Forces_British_Indian_Ocean_Territories
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 77,708
    Dopermean said:

    Well.

    Pakistan cricketers are not being considered by Indian-owned sides for next month's Hundred auction, sources have told BBC Sport.

    Players from Pakistan have not featured in the Indian Premier League (IPL) since 2009 because of diplomatic tensions between the two countries.

    Four of The Hundred's eight franchises - Manchester Super Giants, MI London, Southern Brave and Sunrisers Leeds - are now at least part-owned by companies that control IPL teams.

    In messages seen by the BBC, a senior official from the England and Wales Cricket Board (ECB) indicated to an agent that interest in his Pakistan players would be limited to sides not linked to the IPL.

    Another agent described the situation as "an unwritten rule" across T20 leagues with Indian investment.

    ECB chief executive Richard Gould said last year he expected "players from all nations to be selected for all teams" in The Hundred and warned "clear anti-discrimination policies" were in place.

    None of the four teams or ownership groups in question responded to requests for comment.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/articles/cx2gnv5w091o

    If you superglued a tenner to the road outside Lords, all the members of the ECB would be run over

    There's an online form for this... https://www.ecb.co.uk/about/edi/report-discrimination
    Where did I put my wallet and the glue?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 69,871
    isam said:

    Brixian59 said:

    MattW said:

    FPT for @MoonRabbit .

    MattW said:

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    That's a positive.
    It’s very very risky from Starmer. Hard to believe he said no.

    It is a very big moment in UK US special relationship I think. Does anyone have any example of such a request turned down before? I think for Vietnam US never asked Labour government to use an RAF base at any point?

    If Kemi says she would have given a different answer, straight away a huge and explosive differential between Conservative and Labour. Because, if any US plane goes down, with U’S service lives lost, anywhere in the battle space, Trump will blame the British Labour government for their deaths.
    Yes - I have such an example.

    The Conservative Government in 2012 rebuffed any attempt to use Diego-Garcia for a pre-emptive attack on Iran in advance, because they had official legal advice that could be against international law.

    The Guardian has been told that US diplomats have also lobbied for the use of British bases in Cyprus, and for permission to fly from US bases on Ascension Island in the Atlantic and Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, both of which are British territories.
    ..
    The UK would be in breach of international law if it facilitated what amounted to a pre-emptive strike on Iran," said a senior Whitehall source. "It is explicit. The government has been using this to push back against the Americans."
    ..
    "I think the US has been surprised that ministers have been reluctant to provide assurances about this kind of upfront assistance," said one source. "They'd expect resistance from senior Liberal Democrats, but it's Tories as well. That has come as a bit of a surprise."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/25/uk-reject-us-request-bases-iran

    It will be fun if SKS finds that, given that the Shadow Def Sec is jumping up and down demanding the Govt do the opposite.
    From The Times.
    “Under the terms of long-standing agreements with Washington, these bases {Times includes Diego Garcia} can only be used for military operations that have been agreed in advance with the government.

    I suspect The Times journalism is wrong, and no such agreement applies to Diego Garcia. It’s not an RAF base, it’s not even a joint base, it’s a US base. It seems very odd to me, based on the whole history of UK involvement with the US in Chagos, where UK have been so subservient, the US would allow such a clause on use of their own base.

    As for 2012 and all that, the UK government would try to bundle DG in with the others to aid their pushback - but they were likely wrong. Technically UK island, but not UK base.
    Either way Starmer and Davey stand up to Trump

    Badenoch and Farage lie down sunserviently

    In the court of public opinion I'd say Keir and Ed have it 70 to 30.

    Jesus! After adjusting for bias that's a walkover for Kemi and Nige
    I am not at all sure siding with Iran is the good look some think it is
  • FishingFishing Posts: 6,071
    DougSeal said:

    David Yelland
    @davidyelland

    Gordon Brown's journalism on Andrew continues, he now says he has sent a five page document to a number of police forces about flight rosters at Stansted and other airports. Another extraordinary element of this crisis is the former PM's service here.

    https://x.com/davidyelland/status/2024466986508435711

    Absolutely. Deeply flawed as he is I've always thought Brown was a fundamentally decent human being - for a politician anyway.
    Not sure I agree. I worked in government at the time of his collapsing government and heard too many stories about how abusive he was to his staff. One or two might be sour grapes, but when you hear the dozenth in a year or so you start to see a pattern.

    I'm no fan of either, but I never heard similar stories about Blair or Cameron.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,758

    It is 36 degrees today in parts of Russia apparently.

    36 degrees in Winter.

    Fahrenheit, Celsius, Absolute?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 77,708
    Battlebus said:

    Meanwhile I wonder who will be the first of the press pack to ask a question of Trump about the issue at his inaugural Bored of Peace.

    That pun deserved more likes than it got!

    Unless it was a pick up from the previous thread, which I haven't had a chance to read.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 15,067
    Brixian59 said:

    MattW said:

    FPT for @MoonRabbit .

    MattW said:

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    That's a positive.
    It’s very very risky from Starmer. Hard to believe he said no.

    It is a very big moment in UK US special relationship I think. Does anyone have any example of such a request turned down before? I think for Vietnam US never asked Labour government to use an RAF base at any point?

    If Kemi says she would have given a different answer, straight away a huge and explosive differential between Conservative and Labour. Because, if any US plane goes down, with U’S service lives lost, anywhere in the battle space, Trump will blame the British Labour government for their deaths.
    Yes - I have such an example.

    The Conservative Government in 2012 rebuffed any attempt to use Diego-Garcia for a pre-emptive attack on Iran in advance, because they had official legal advice that could be against international law.

    The Guardian has been told that US diplomats have also lobbied for the use of British bases in Cyprus, and for permission to fly from US bases on Ascension Island in the Atlantic and Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, both of which are British territories.
    ..
    The UK would be in breach of international law if it facilitated what amounted to a pre-emptive strike on Iran," said a senior Whitehall source. "It is explicit. The government has been using this to push back against the Americans."
    ..
    "I think the US has been surprised that ministers have been reluctant to provide assurances about this kind of upfront assistance," said one source. "They'd expect resistance from senior Liberal Democrats, but it's Tories as well. That has come as a bit of a surprise."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/25/uk-reject-us-request-bases-iran

    It will be fun if SKS finds that, given that the Shadow Def Sec is jumping up and down demanding the Govt do the opposite.
    From The Times.
    “Under the terms of long-standing agreements with Washington, these bases {Times includes Diego Garcia} can only be used for military operations that have been agreed in advance with the government.

    I suspect The Times journalism is wrong, and no such agreement applies to Diego Garcia. It’s not an RAF base, it’s not even a joint base, it’s a US base. It seems very odd to me, based on the whole history of UK involvement with the US in Chagos, where UK have been so subservient, the US would allow such a clause on use of their own base.

    As for 2012 and all that, the UK government would try to bundle DG in with the others to aid their pushback - but they were likely wrong. Technically UK island, but not UK base.
    Either way Starmer and Davey stand up to Trump

    Badenoch and Farage lie down sunserviently

    In the court of public opinion I'd say Keir and Ed have it 70 to 30.

    It’s not as glib as that though. In the bigger picture, planes that don’t come back and service lives lost, Starmer will be relentlessly blamed for these deaths from politicians on both sides of the Atlantic. Labour will be blamed long after Starmer and his government are gone. I don’t think Starmer and advisors around him are smart enough to realise this.

    Think of every single UK front page, the coffins of our allies with flag draped over them a picture of laughing Ayatollah inset. “You happy which side you picked, Mr Starmer?” As headline.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 13,248
    Fishing said:

    DougSeal said:

    David Yelland
    @davidyelland

    Gordon Brown's journalism on Andrew continues, he now says he has sent a five page document to a number of police forces about flight rosters at Stansted and other airports. Another extraordinary element of this crisis is the former PM's service here.

    https://x.com/davidyelland/status/2024466986508435711

    Absolutely. Deeply flawed as he is I've always thought Brown was a fundamentally decent human being - for a politician anyway.
    Not sure I agree. I worked in government at the time of his collapsing government and heard too many stories about how abusive he was to his staff. One or two might be sour grapes, but when you hear the dozenth in a year or so you start to see a pattern.

    I'm no fan of either, but I never heard similar stories about Blair or Cameron.
    That's true. I'd heard similar. I retract.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,830
    edited 5:52PM
    rcs1000 said:

    DougSeal said:

    David Yelland
    @davidyelland

    Gordon Brown's journalism on Andrew continues, he now says he has sent a five page document to a number of police forces about flight rosters at Stansted and other airports. Another extraordinary element of this crisis is the former PM's service here.

    https://x.com/davidyelland/status/2024466986508435711

    Absolutely. Deeply flawed as he is I've always thought Brown was a fundamentally decent human being - for a politician anyway.
    It's a pretty low bar when you add that proviso, though.
    Plus, if you employ creatures like Damien McBride, to keep your own hands clean….
  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,177
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    You not only read lots of X, you actually follow the lefty weirdo Iain Darcy?!
    Come across him before. I've tried, so far without success, to find out who Iain Darcy actually is. He calls himself a doctor and claims to be a lawyer. There is no Iain Darcy admitted to the Roll of Solicitors, nor called to the Bar, in England and Wales (there are a couple of Ian Darcys on the Roll but none with an extra 'i')). One of those weird X/Twitter personas.
    Offered without comment.

    There is an Ian Patrick Darcy, which could be a slight diversion for social media:

    https://solicitors.lawsociety.org.uk/person/368007/ian-patrick-darcy
    https://www.barstandardsboard.org.uk/barristers-register/DB3B1A13684817BB70CE2EC7154D9D9A.html

    This one is a Conservative Councillor in Plymouth.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 15,067

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    Shame on Starmer if so.
    I’m not going to rise to replying to the uninformed, unChristian warmonger bile you are continually posting.
    I am an atheist. Could not care less about being unChristian.

    Wanting the liberation of Iranians from their brutal dictatorship is not bile.
    I would like to see the Iranian people free from such barbaric masochistic women hating bastards. But that’s not the purpose of the latest round of bombing, is it?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,957

    Brixian59 said:

    MattW said:

    FPT for @MoonRabbit .

    MattW said:

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    That's a positive.
    It’s very very risky from Starmer. Hard to believe he said no.

    It is a very big moment in UK US special relationship I think. Does anyone have any example of such a request turned down before? I think for Vietnam US never asked Labour government to use an RAF base at any point?

    If Kemi says she would have given a different answer, straight away a huge and explosive differential between Conservative and Labour. Because, if any US plane goes down, with U’S service lives lost, anywhere in the battle space, Trump will blame the British Labour government for their deaths.
    Yes - I have such an example.

    The Conservative Government in 2012 rebuffed any attempt to use Diego-Garcia for a pre-emptive attack on Iran in advance, because they had official legal advice that could be against international law.

    The Guardian has been told that US diplomats have also lobbied for the use of British bases in Cyprus, and for permission to fly from US bases on Ascension Island in the Atlantic and Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, both of which are British territories.
    ..
    The UK would be in breach of international law if it facilitated what amounted to a pre-emptive strike on Iran," said a senior Whitehall source. "It is explicit. The government has been using this to push back against the Americans."
    ..
    "I think the US has been surprised that ministers have been reluctant to provide assurances about this kind of upfront assistance," said one source. "They'd expect resistance from senior Liberal Democrats, but it's Tories as well. That has come as a bit of a surprise."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/25/uk-reject-us-request-bases-iran

    It will be fun if SKS finds that, given that the Shadow Def Sec is jumping up and down demanding the Govt do the opposite.
    From The Times.
    “Under the terms of long-standing agreements with Washington, these bases {Times includes Diego Garcia} can only be used for military operations that have been agreed in advance with the government.

    I suspect The Times journalism is wrong, and no such agreement applies to Diego Garcia. It’s not an RAF base, it’s not even a joint base, it’s a US base. It seems very odd to me, based on the whole history of UK involvement with the US in Chagos, where UK have been so subservient, the US would allow such a clause on use of their own base.

    As for 2012 and all that, the UK government would try to bundle DG in with the others to aid their pushback - but they were likely wrong. Technically UK island, but not UK base.
    Either way Starmer and Davey stand up to Trump

    Badenoch and Farage lie down sunserviently

    In the court of public opinion I'd say Keir and Ed have it 70 to 30.

    It’s not as glib as that though. In the bigger picture, planes that don’t come back and service lives lost, Starmer will be relentlessly blamed for these deaths from politicians on both sides of the Atlantic. Labour will be blamed long after Starmer and his government are gone. I don’t think Starmer and advisors around him are smart enough to realise this.

    Think of every single UK front page, the coffins of our allies with flag draped over them a picture of laughing Ayatollah inset. “You happy which side you picked, Mr Starmer?” As headline.
    The US has loads of other bases it can use . It’s not essential to use UK ones . Trump can go fxck himself especially after his comments about NATO troops .
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,654
    Leon said:

    You not only read lots of X, you actually follow the lefty weirdo Iain Darcy?!
    You do realise that you can see stuff on twitter from people you don’t follow? No idea who ‘lefty weirdo Iain Darcy’ is and don’t follow him but may consider it now.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 101,281

    DavidL said:

    Did he not get the £12m from his mum? Not sure how you make much of a story out of that.

    In terms of containing the scandal, however, the spend seems to have been suboptimal.

    Apparently the King also loaned him some of the money too.

    Andrew was 'loaned millions by King Charles, late Queen and Prince Philip to pay Virginia Giuffre settlement'

    https://www.gbnews.com/royal/andrew-mountbatten-windsor-king-charles-queen-elizabeth-ii-prince-philip-settlement
    It's a dangerous moment for the institution. It's hard to believe none knew what he was like, even if the actual cause of arrest is something they probably did not know, and I think views are pretty set on the reason Andrew was desperate to pay a settlement and none of them could have been in much doubt at the time.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,435

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    Shame on Starmer if so.
    I’m not going to rise to replying to the uninformed, unChristian warmonger bile you are continually posting.
    I am an atheist. Could not care less about being unChristian.

    Wanting the liberation of Iranians from their brutal dictatorship is not bile.
    I would like to see the Iranian people free from such barbaric masochistic women hating bastards. But that’s not the purpose of the latest round of bombing, is it?
    It should be.

    We should be pushing hard for regime change.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 101,281

    Find OutNow

    Ref 28 (-1)
    Grn 18 (=)
    Con 16 (-3)
    Lab 16 (=)
    LD 10 (-1)
    Others 7 (+3)

    Ooh. Is that +3 in the "others" column the first hint of Rupertmania?
    That's a lot of anti-vaxxer neo nazis out there (the latter as suggested by some in Reform, not me, lawyers).
  • PJHPJH Posts: 1,032

    Brixian59 said:

    MattW said:

    FPT for @MoonRabbit .

    MattW said:

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    That's a positive.
    It’s very very risky from Starmer. Hard to believe he said no.

    It is a very big moment in UK US special relationship I think. Does anyone have any example of such a request turned down before? I think for Vietnam US never asked Labour government to use an RAF base at any point?

    If Kemi says she would have given a different answer, straight away a huge and explosive differential between Conservative and Labour. Because, if any US plane goes down, with U’S service lives lost, anywhere in the battle space, Trump will blame the British Labour government for their deaths.
    Yes - I have such an example.

    The Conservative Government in 2012 rebuffed any attempt to use Diego-Garcia for a pre-emptive attack on Iran in advance, because they had official legal advice that could be against international law.

    The Guardian has been told that US diplomats have also lobbied for the use of British bases in Cyprus, and for permission to fly from US bases on Ascension Island in the Atlantic and Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, both of which are British territories.
    ..
    The UK would be in breach of international law if it facilitated what amounted to a pre-emptive strike on Iran," said a senior Whitehall source. "It is explicit. The government has been using this to push back against the Americans."
    ..
    "I think the US has been surprised that ministers have been reluctant to provide assurances about this kind of upfront assistance," said one source. "They'd expect resistance from senior Liberal Democrats, but it's Tories as well. That has come as a bit of a surprise."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/25/uk-reject-us-request-bases-iran

    It will be fun if SKS finds that, given that the Shadow Def Sec is jumping up and down demanding the Govt do the opposite.
    From The Times.
    “Under the terms of long-standing agreements with Washington, these bases {Times includes Diego Garcia} can only be used for military operations that have been agreed in advance with the government.

    I suspect The Times journalism is wrong, and no such agreement applies to Diego Garcia. It’s not an RAF base, it’s not even a joint base, it’s a US base. It seems very odd to me, based on the whole history of UK involvement with the US in Chagos, where UK have been so subservient, the US would allow such a clause on use of their own base.

    As for 2012 and all that, the UK government would try to bundle DG in with the others to aid their pushback - but they were likely wrong. Technically UK island, but not UK base.
    Either way Starmer and Davey stand up to Trump

    Badenoch and Farage lie down sunserviently

    In the court of public opinion I'd say Keir and Ed have it 70 to 30.

    It’s not as glib as that though. In the bigger picture, planes that don’t come back and service lives lost, Starmer will be relentlessly blamed for these deaths from politicians on both sides of the Atlantic. Labour will be blamed long after Starmer and his government are gone. I don’t think Starmer and advisors around him are smart enough to realise this.

    Think of every single UK front page, the coffins of our allies with flag draped over them a picture of laughing Ayatollah inset. “You happy which side you picked, Mr Starmer?” As headline.
    I don't agree. If you are opposed to a strike on Iran (as I am) then any blame for service lives lost will de directed at the people who sent them there. Which won't include Starmer. This sudden sign of Starmer having discovered principles is to be welcomed.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 101,281
    Leon said:

    Starmer is finished

    Again?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 57,664

    David Yelland
    @davidyelland

    Gordon Brown's journalism on Andrew continues, he now says he has sent a five page document to a number of police forces about flight rosters at Stansted and other airports. Another extraordinary element of this crisis is the former PM's service here.

    https://x.com/davidyelland/status/2024466986508435711

    He could get called as a witness if Mandelson gets put on trial.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 13,248
    MattW said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    You not only read lots of X, you actually follow the lefty weirdo Iain Darcy?!
    Come across him before. I've tried, so far without success, to find out who Iain Darcy actually is. He calls himself a doctor and claims to be a lawyer. There is no Iain Darcy admitted to the Roll of Solicitors, nor called to the Bar, in England and Wales (there are a couple of Ian Darcys on the Roll but none with an extra 'i')). One of those weird X/Twitter personas.
    Offered without comment.

    There is an Ian Patrick Darcy, which could be a slight diversion for social media:

    https://solicitors.lawsociety.org.uk/person/368007/ian-patrick-darcy
    https://www.barstandardsboard.org.uk/barristers-register/DB3B1A13684817BB70CE2EC7154D9D9A.html

    This one is a Conservative Councillor in Plymouth.
    Not only the lack of an extra 'i' but also the fact he's a Conservative rules him out if you read the very left X/Twitter persona. Given what he writes I'd want to hide my identity somewhat better if I were, in truth, a Tory.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 15,633
    Thinking on the Restore issue, his timing is a bit off. Hes got to get registered with the EC to stand anyone then hes got, what, a month and a half to vet and approve candidates before campaign kick off?
    If he gets a 'start up' bounce theres every chance the absence of any Restore impact at the locals does for him like it did Change UK
    At very least he needs to flood Yarmouth, and possibly much of Norfolk, with candidates
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 101,281

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    Shame on Starmer if so.
    I’m not going to rise to replying to the uninformed, unChristian warmonger bile you are continually posting.
    I am an atheist. Could not care less about being unChristian.

    Wanting the liberation of Iranians from their brutal dictatorship is not bile.
    I would like to see the Iranian people free from such barbaric masochistic women hating bastards. But that’s not the purpose of the latest round of bombing, is it?
    And whilst it is hard to calculate and it would be nice to think only a tiny majority there are barbaric masocistic women hating bastards - and unfortunately the ones with the power - there are probably a lot more present than is comfortable to think about.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 69,871
    nico67 said:

    Brixian59 said:

    MattW said:

    FPT for @MoonRabbit .

    MattW said:

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    That's a positive.
    It’s very very risky from Starmer. Hard to believe he said no.

    It is a very big moment in UK US special relationship I think. Does anyone have any example of such a request turned down before? I think for Vietnam US never asked Labour government to use an RAF base at any point?

    If Kemi says she would have given a different answer, straight away a huge and explosive differential between Conservative and Labour. Because, if any US plane goes down, with U’S service lives lost, anywhere in the battle space, Trump will blame the British Labour government for their deaths.
    Yes - I have such an example.

    The Conservative Government in 2012 rebuffed any attempt to use Diego-Garcia for a pre-emptive attack on Iran in advance, because they had official legal advice that could be against international law.

    The Guardian has been told that US diplomats have also lobbied for the use of British bases in Cyprus, and for permission to fly from US bases on Ascension Island in the Atlantic and Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, both of which are British territories.
    ..
    The UK would be in breach of international law if it facilitated what amounted to a pre-emptive strike on Iran," said a senior Whitehall source. "It is explicit. The government has been using this to push back against the Americans."
    ..
    "I think the US has been surprised that ministers have been reluctant to provide assurances about this kind of upfront assistance," said one source. "They'd expect resistance from senior Liberal Democrats, but it's Tories as well. That has come as a bit of a surprise."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/25/uk-reject-us-request-bases-iran

    It will be fun if SKS finds that, given that the Shadow Def Sec is jumping up and down demanding the Govt do the opposite.
    From The Times.
    “Under the terms of long-standing agreements with Washington, these bases {Times includes Diego Garcia} can only be used for military operations that have been agreed in advance with the government.

    I suspect The Times journalism is wrong, and no such agreement applies to Diego Garcia. It’s not an RAF base, it’s not even a joint base, it’s a US base. It seems very odd to me, based on the whole history of UK involvement with the US in Chagos, where UK have been so subservient, the US would allow such a clause on use of their own base.

    As for 2012 and all that, the UK government would try to bundle DG in with the others to aid their pushback - but they were likely wrong. Technically UK island, but not UK base.
    Either way Starmer and Davey stand up to Trump

    Badenoch and Farage lie down sunserviently

    In the court of public opinion I'd say Keir and Ed have it 70 to 30.

    It’s not as glib as that though. In the bigger picture, planes that don’t come back and service lives lost, Starmer will be relentlessly blamed for these deaths from politicians on both sides of the Atlantic. Labour will be blamed long after Starmer and his government are gone. I don’t think Starmer and advisors around him are smart enough to realise this.

    Think of every single UK front page, the coffins of our allies with flag draped over them a picture of laughing Ayatollah inset. “You happy which side you picked, Mr Starmer?” As headline.
    The US has loads of other bases it can use . It’s not essential to use UK ones . Trump can go fxck himself especially after his comments about NATO troops .
    May I ask gently do you have knowledge of the US logistics and capabilities for action against Iran ?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,957
    edited 6:00PM
    So every misadventure the US wants to get into should now be backed by the UK incase it goes badly and they lose troops!

    Bombing Iran won’t lead to regime change and we wouldn’t be here if Trump hadn’t torn up the original agreement.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 609
    kle4 said:

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    Shame on Starmer if so.
    I’m not going to rise to replying to the uninformed, unChristian warmonger bile you are continually posting.
    I am an atheist. Could not care less about being unChristian.

    Wanting the liberation of Iranians from their brutal dictatorship is not bile.
    I would like to see the Iranian people free from such barbaric masochistic women hating bastards. But that’s not the purpose of the latest round of bombing, is it?
    And whilst it is hard to calculate and it would be nice to think only a tiny majority there are barbaric masocistic women hating bastards - and unfortunately the ones with the power - there are probably a lot more present than is comfortable to think about.
    The presence of Netanyahu in the equation means any UK action or support has to be pulled.

    No ifs no buts.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 101,281

    MattW said:

    FPT for @MoonRabbit .

    MattW said:

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    That's a positive.
    It’s very very risky from Starmer. Hard to believe he said no.

    It is a very big moment in UK US special relationship I think. Does anyone have any example of such a request turned down before? I think for Vietnam US never asked Labour government to use an RAF base at any point?

    If Kemi says she would have given a different answer, straight away a huge and explosive differential between Conservative and Labour. Because, if any US plane goes down, with U’S service lives lost, anywhere in the battle space, Trump will blame the British Labour government for their deaths.
    Yes - I have such an example.

    The Conservative Government in 2012 rebuffed any attempt to use Diego-Garcia for a pre-emptive attack on Iran in advance, because they had official legal advice that could be against international law.

    The Guardian has been told that US diplomats have also lobbied for the use of British bases in Cyprus, and for permission to fly from US bases on Ascension Island in the Atlantic and Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, both of which are British territories.
    ..
    The UK would be in breach of international law if it facilitated what amounted to a pre-emptive strike on Iran," said a senior Whitehall source. "It is explicit. The government has been using this to push back against the Americans."
    ..
    "I think the US has been surprised that ministers have been reluctant to provide assurances about this kind of upfront assistance," said one source. "They'd expect resistance from senior Liberal Democrats, but it's Tories as well. That has come as a bit of a surprise."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/25/uk-reject-us-request-bases-iran

    It will be fun if SKS finds that, given that the Shadow Def Sec is jumping up and down demanding the Govt do the opposite.
    From The Times.
    “Under the terms of long-standing agreements with Washington, these bases {Times includes Diego Garcia} can only be used for military operations that have been agreed in advance with the government.

    I suspect The Times journalism is wrong, and no such agreement applies to Diego Garcia. It’s not an RAF base, it’s not even a joint base, it’s a US base. It seems very odd to me, based on the whole history of UK involvement with the US in Chagos, where UK have been so subservient, the US would allow such a clause on use of their own base.

    As for 2012 and all that, the UK government would try to bundle DG in with the others to aid their pushback - but they were likely wrong. Technically UK island, but not UK base.
    Seems very in keeping with the whole arrangement if it was technically a UK base even if in every way that matters it was not. Maintaining such legal ties long beyond practical reality is pretty common in our way of working.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 77,708
    DougSeal said:

    Fishing said:

    DougSeal said:

    David Yelland
    @davidyelland

    Gordon Brown's journalism on Andrew continues, he now says he has sent a five page document to a number of police forces about flight rosters at Stansted and other airports. Another extraordinary element of this crisis is the former PM's service here.

    https://x.com/davidyelland/status/2024466986508435711

    Absolutely. Deeply flawed as he is I've always thought Brown was a fundamentally decent human being - for a politician anyway.
    Not sure I agree. I worked in government at the time of his collapsing government and heard too many stories about how abusive he was to his staff. One or two might be sour grapes, but when you hear the dozenth in a year or so you start to see a pattern.

    I'm no fan of either, but I never heard similar stories about Blair or Cameron.
    That's true. I'd heard similar. I retract.
    Apparently he once threw a stapler at Alistair Darling, followed by a holepunch.

    Margaret asked if Brown had hit him.

    'No,' replied Alistair. 'I ducked.'
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,957

    nico67 said:

    Brixian59 said:

    MattW said:

    FPT for @MoonRabbit .

    MattW said:

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    That's a positive.
    It’s very very risky from Starmer. Hard to believe he said no.

    It is a very big moment in UK US special relationship I think. Does anyone have any example of such a request turned down before? I think for Vietnam US never asked Labour government to use an RAF base at any point?

    If Kemi says she would have given a different answer, straight away a huge and explosive differential between Conservative and Labour. Because, if any US plane goes down, with U’S service lives lost, anywhere in the battle space, Trump will blame the British Labour government for their deaths.
    Yes - I have such an example.

    The Conservative Government in 2012 rebuffed any attempt to use Diego-Garcia for a pre-emptive attack on Iran in advance, because they had official legal advice that could be against international law.

    The Guardian has been told that US diplomats have also lobbied for the use of British bases in Cyprus, and for permission to fly from US bases on Ascension Island in the Atlantic and Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, both of which are British territories.
    ..
    The UK would be in breach of international law if it facilitated what amounted to a pre-emptive strike on Iran," said a senior Whitehall source. "It is explicit. The government has been using this to push back against the Americans."
    ..
    "I think the US has been surprised that ministers have been reluctant to provide assurances about this kind of upfront assistance," said one source. "They'd expect resistance from senior Liberal Democrats, but it's Tories as well. That has come as a bit of a surprise."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/25/uk-reject-us-request-bases-iran

    It will be fun if SKS finds that, given that the Shadow Def Sec is jumping up and down demanding the Govt do the opposite.
    From The Times.
    “Under the terms of long-standing agreements with Washington, these bases {Times includes Diego Garcia} can only be used for military operations that have been agreed in advance with the government.

    I suspect The Times journalism is wrong, and no such agreement applies to Diego Garcia. It’s not an RAF base, it’s not even a joint base, it’s a US base. It seems very odd to me, based on the whole history of UK involvement with the US in Chagos, where UK have been so subservient, the US would allow such a clause on use of their own base.

    As for 2012 and all that, the UK government would try to bundle DG in with the others to aid their pushback - but they were likely wrong. Technically UK island, but not UK base.
    Either way Starmer and Davey stand up to Trump

    Badenoch and Farage lie down sunserviently

    In the court of public opinion I'd say Keir and Ed have it 70 to 30.

    It’s not as glib as that though. In the bigger picture, planes that don’t come back and service lives lost, Starmer will be relentlessly blamed for these deaths from politicians on both sides of the Atlantic. Labour will be blamed long after Starmer and his government are gone. I don’t think Starmer and advisors around him are smart enough to realise this.

    Think of every single UK front page, the coffins of our allies with flag draped over them a picture of laughing Ayatollah inset. “You happy which side you picked, Mr Starmer?” As headline.
    The US has loads of other bases it can use . It’s not essential to use UK ones . Trump can go fxck himself especially after his comments about NATO troops .
    May I ask gently do you have knowledge of the US logistics and capabilities for action against Iran ?
    Allegedly they have the greatest military capability in the world .
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,435
    nico67 said:

    So every misadventure the US wants to get into should now be backed by the UK incase it goes badly and they lose troops!

    Bombing Iran won’t lead to regime change and we wouldn’t be here if Trump hadn’t torn up the original agreement.

    Regime change is absolutely what should be the objective and we should be pushing hard for it, not because of Trump, but because it is the right thing to do.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,758
    kle4 said:

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    Shame on Starmer if so.
    I’m not going to rise to replying to the uninformed, unChristian warmonger bile you are continually posting.
    I am an atheist. Could not care less about being unChristian.

    Wanting the liberation of Iranians from their brutal dictatorship is not bile.
    I would like to see the Iranian people free from such barbaric masochistic women hating bastards. But that’s not the purpose of the latest round of bombing, is it?
    And whilst it is hard to calculate and it would be nice to think only a tiny majority there are barbaric masocistic women hating bastards - and unfortunately the ones with the power - there are probably a lot more present than is comfortable to think about.
    If I may say so, the string of words 'barbaric masochistic women hating bastards' could do with some extra punctuation for clarity of meaning. E.g. I suspect you mean misogynistic not masochistic.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 609

    nico67 said:

    Brixian59 said:

    MattW said:

    FPT for @MoonRabbit .

    MattW said:

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    That's a positive.
    It’s very very risky from Starmer. Hard to believe he said no.

    It is a very big moment in UK US special relationship I think. Does anyone have any example of such a request turned down before? I think for Vietnam US never asked Labour government to use an RAF base at any point?

    If Kemi says she would have given a different answer, straight away a huge and explosive differential between Conservative and Labour. Because, if any US plane goes down, with U’S service lives lost, anywhere in the battle space, Trump will blame the British Labour government for their deaths.
    Yes - I have such an example.

    The Conservative Government in 2012 rebuffed any attempt to use Diego-Garcia for a pre-emptive attack on Iran in advance, because they had official legal advice that could be against international law.

    The Guardian has been told that US diplomats have also lobbied for the use of British bases in Cyprus, and for permission to fly from US bases on Ascension Island in the Atlantic and Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, both of which are British territories.
    ..
    The UK would be in breach of international law if it facilitated what amounted to a pre-emptive strike on Iran," said a senior Whitehall source. "It is explicit. The government has been using this to push back against the Americans."
    ..
    "I think the US has been surprised that ministers have been reluctant to provide assurances about this kind of upfront assistance," said one source. "They'd expect resistance from senior Liberal Democrats, but it's Tories as well. That has come as a bit of a surprise."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/25/uk-reject-us-request-bases-iran

    It will be fun if SKS finds that, given that the Shadow Def Sec is jumping up and down demanding the Govt do the opposite.
    From The Times.
    “Under the terms of long-standing agreements with Washington, these bases {Times includes Diego Garcia} can only be used for military operations that have been agreed in advance with the government.

    I suspect The Times journalism is wrong, and no such agreement applies to Diego Garcia. It’s not an RAF base, it’s not even a joint base, it’s a US base. It seems very odd to me, based on the whole history of UK involvement with the US in Chagos, where UK have been so subservient, the US would allow such a clause on use of their own base.

    As for 2012 and all that, the UK government would try to bundle DG in with the others to aid their pushback - but they were likely wrong. Technically UK island, but not UK base.
    Either way Starmer and Davey stand up to Trump

    Badenoch and Farage lie down sunserviently

    In the court of public opinion I'd say Keir and Ed have it 70 to 30.

    It’s not as glib as that though. In the bigger picture, planes that don’t come back and service lives lost, Starmer will be relentlessly blamed for these deaths from politicians on both sides of the Atlantic. Labour will be blamed long after Starmer and his government are gone. I don’t think Starmer and advisors around him are smart enough to realise this.

    Think of every single UK front page, the coffins of our allies with flag draped over them a picture of laughing Ayatollah inset. “You happy which side you picked, Mr Starmer?” As headline.
    The US has loads of other bases it can use . It’s not essential to use UK ones . Trump can go fxck himself especially after his comments about NATO troops .
    May I ask gently do you have knowledge of the US logistics and capabilities for action against Iran ?
    We've been treated as a glorified Air craft Carrier for long enough

    When we've supported then the ass hole has then claimed we did nothing to help.

    Let him and Netanyahu roll in their own shit.

    We cannot continue to get involved in everyone else's battles.

    We certainly can't support gun toting Zionists.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 69,871
    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    Brixian59 said:

    MattW said:

    FPT for @MoonRabbit .

    MattW said:

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    That's a positive.
    It’s very very risky from Starmer. Hard to believe he said no.

    It is a very big moment in UK US special relationship I think. Does anyone have any example of such a request turned down before? I think for Vietnam US never asked Labour government to use an RAF base at any point?

    If Kemi says she would have given a different answer, straight away a huge and explosive differential between Conservative and Labour. Because, if any US plane goes down, with U’S service lives lost, anywhere in the battle space, Trump will blame the British Labour government for their deaths.
    Yes - I have such an example.

    The Conservative Government in 2012 rebuffed any attempt to use Diego-Garcia for a pre-emptive attack on Iran in advance, because they had official legal advice that could be against international law.

    The Guardian has been told that US diplomats have also lobbied for the use of British bases in Cyprus, and for permission to fly from US bases on Ascension Island in the Atlantic and Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, both of which are British territories.
    ..
    The UK would be in breach of international law if it facilitated what amounted to a pre-emptive strike on Iran," said a senior Whitehall source. "It is explicit. The government has been using this to push back against the Americans."
    ..
    "I think the US has been surprised that ministers have been reluctant to provide assurances about this kind of upfront assistance," said one source. "They'd expect resistance from senior Liberal Democrats, but it's Tories as well. That has come as a bit of a surprise."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/25/uk-reject-us-request-bases-iran

    It will be fun if SKS finds that, given that the Shadow Def Sec is jumping up and down demanding the Govt do the opposite.
    From The Times.
    “Under the terms of long-standing agreements with Washington, these bases {Times includes Diego Garcia} can only be used for military operations that have been agreed in advance with the government.

    I suspect The Times journalism is wrong, and no such agreement applies to Diego Garcia. It’s not an RAF base, it’s not even a joint base, it’s a US base. It seems very odd to me, based on the whole history of UK involvement with the US in Chagos, where UK have been so subservient, the US would allow such a clause on use of their own base.

    As for 2012 and all that, the UK government would try to bundle DG in with the others to aid their pushback - but they were likely wrong. Technically UK island, but not UK base.
    Either way Starmer and Davey stand up to Trump

    Badenoch and Farage lie down sunserviently

    In the court of public opinion I'd say Keir and Ed have it 70 to 30.

    It’s not as glib as that though. In the bigger picture, planes that don’t come back and service lives lost, Starmer will be relentlessly blamed for these deaths from politicians on both sides of the Atlantic. Labour will be blamed long after Starmer and his government are gone. I don’t think Starmer and advisors around him are smart enough to realise this.

    Think of every single UK front page, the coffins of our allies with flag draped over them a picture of laughing Ayatollah inset. “You happy which side you picked, Mr Starmer?” As headline.
    The US has loads of other bases it can use . It’s not essential to use UK ones . Trump can go fxck himself especially after his comments about NATO troops .
    May I ask gently do you have knowledge of the US logistics and capabilities for action against Iran ?
    Allegedly they have the greatest military capability in the world .
    You have not answered the logistics question
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 57,664

    Regime change is absolutely what should be the objective and we should be pushing hard for it, not because of Trump, but because it is the right thing to do.

    It will probably come after the May elections. I can't see him lasting much longer than that.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,435
    AnneJGP said:

    kle4 said:

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    Shame on Starmer if so.
    I’m not going to rise to replying to the uninformed, unChristian warmonger bile you are continually posting.
    I am an atheist. Could not care less about being unChristian.

    Wanting the liberation of Iranians from their brutal dictatorship is not bile.
    I would like to see the Iranian people free from such barbaric masochistic women hating bastards. But that’s not the purpose of the latest round of bombing, is it?
    And whilst it is hard to calculate and it would be nice to think only a tiny majority there are barbaric masocistic women hating bastards - and unfortunately the ones with the power - there are probably a lot more present than is comfortable to think about.
    If I may say so, the string of words 'barbaric masochistic women hating bastards' could do with some extra punctuation for clarity of meaning. E.g. I suspect you mean misogynistic not masochistic.
    Both words work.

    They take pleasure in being cruel, to women and to others, so both are valid.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 101,281
    AnneJGP said:

    kle4 said:

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    Shame on Starmer if so.
    I’m not going to rise to replying to the uninformed, unChristian warmonger bile you are continually posting.
    I am an atheist. Could not care less about being unChristian.

    Wanting the liberation of Iranians from their brutal dictatorship is not bile.
    I would like to see the Iranian people free from such barbaric masochistic women hating bastards. But that’s not the purpose of the latest round of bombing, is it?
    And whilst it is hard to calculate and it would be nice to think only a tiny majority there are barbaric masocistic women hating bastards - and unfortunately the ones with the power - there are probably a lot more present than is comfortable to think about.
    If I may say so, the string of words 'barbaric masochistic women hating bastards' could do with some extra punctuation for clarity of meaning. E.g. I suspect you mean misogynistic not masochistic.
    Well, I was copying MoonRabbit's terminology, and thought the same thing, but then there would be no need to add the 'women hating', so decided to leave it as is.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,435
    Brixian59 said:

    nico67 said:

    Brixian59 said:

    MattW said:

    FPT for @MoonRabbit .

    MattW said:

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    That's a positive.
    It’s very very risky from Starmer. Hard to believe he said no.

    It is a very big moment in UK US special relationship I think. Does anyone have any example of such a request turned down before? I think for Vietnam US never asked Labour government to use an RAF base at any point?

    If Kemi says she would have given a different answer, straight away a huge and explosive differential between Conservative and Labour. Because, if any US plane goes down, with U’S service lives lost, anywhere in the battle space, Trump will blame the British Labour government for their deaths.
    Yes - I have such an example.

    The Conservative Government in 2012 rebuffed any attempt to use Diego-Garcia for a pre-emptive attack on Iran in advance, because they had official legal advice that could be against international law.

    The Guardian has been told that US diplomats have also lobbied for the use of British bases in Cyprus, and for permission to fly from US bases on Ascension Island in the Atlantic and Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, both of which are British territories.
    ..
    The UK would be in breach of international law if it facilitated what amounted to a pre-emptive strike on Iran," said a senior Whitehall source. "It is explicit. The government has been using this to push back against the Americans."
    ..
    "I think the US has been surprised that ministers have been reluctant to provide assurances about this kind of upfront assistance," said one source. "They'd expect resistance from senior Liberal Democrats, but it's Tories as well. That has come as a bit of a surprise."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/25/uk-reject-us-request-bases-iran

    It will be fun if SKS finds that, given that the Shadow Def Sec is jumping up and down demanding the Govt do the opposite.
    From The Times.
    “Under the terms of long-standing agreements with Washington, these bases {Times includes Diego Garcia} can only be used for military operations that have been agreed in advance with the government.

    I suspect The Times journalism is wrong, and no such agreement applies to Diego Garcia. It’s not an RAF base, it’s not even a joint base, it’s a US base. It seems very odd to me, based on the whole history of UK involvement with the US in Chagos, where UK have been so subservient, the US would allow such a clause on use of their own base.

    As for 2012 and all that, the UK government would try to bundle DG in with the others to aid their pushback - but they were likely wrong. Technically UK island, but not UK base.
    Either way Starmer and Davey stand up to Trump

    Badenoch and Farage lie down sunserviently

    In the court of public opinion I'd say Keir and Ed have it 70 to 30.

    It’s not as glib as that though. In the bigger picture, planes that don’t come back and service lives lost, Starmer will be relentlessly blamed for these deaths from politicians on both sides of the Atlantic. Labour will be blamed long after Starmer and his government are gone. I don’t think Starmer and advisors around him are smart enough to realise this.

    Think of every single UK front page, the coffins of our allies with flag draped over them a picture of laughing Ayatollah inset. “You happy which side you picked, Mr Starmer?” As headline.
    The US has loads of other bases it can use . It’s not essential to use UK ones . Trump can go fxck himself especially after his comments about NATO troops .
    May I ask gently do you have knowledge of the US logistics and capabilities for action against Iran ?
    We've been treated as a glorified Air craft Carrier for long enough

    When we've supported then the ass hole has then claimed we did nothing to help.

    Let him and Netanyahu roll in their own shit.

    We cannot continue to get involved in everyone else's battles.

    We certainly can't support gun toting Zionists.
    We certainly should support them. 👍
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 69,871
    Brixian59 said:

    nico67 said:

    Brixian59 said:

    MattW said:

    FPT for @MoonRabbit .

    MattW said:

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    That's a positive.
    It’s very very risky from Starmer. Hard to believe he said no.

    It is a very big moment in UK US special relationship I think. Does anyone have any example of such a request turned down before? I think for Vietnam US never asked Labour government to use an RAF base at any point?

    If Kemi says she would have given a different answer, straight away a huge and explosive differential between Conservative and Labour. Because, if any US plane goes down, with U’S service lives lost, anywhere in the battle space, Trump will blame the British Labour government for their deaths.
    Yes - I have such an example.

    The Conservative Government in 2012 rebuffed any attempt to use Diego-Garcia for a pre-emptive attack on Iran in advance, because they had official legal advice that could be against international law.

    The Guardian has been told that US diplomats have also lobbied for the use of British bases in Cyprus, and for permission to fly from US bases on Ascension Island in the Atlantic and Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, both of which are British territories.
    ..
    The UK would be in breach of international law if it facilitated what amounted to a pre-emptive strike on Iran," said a senior Whitehall source. "It is explicit. The government has been using this to push back against the Americans."
    ..
    "I think the US has been surprised that ministers have been reluctant to provide assurances about this kind of upfront assistance," said one source. "They'd expect resistance from senior Liberal Democrats, but it's Tories as well. That has come as a bit of a surprise."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/25/uk-reject-us-request-bases-iran

    It will be fun if SKS finds that, given that the Shadow Def Sec is jumping up and down demanding the Govt do the opposite.
    From The Times.
    “Under the terms of long-standing agreements with Washington, these bases {Times includes Diego Garcia} can only be used for military operations that have been agreed in advance with the government.

    I suspect The Times journalism is wrong, and no such agreement applies to Diego Garcia. It’s not an RAF base, it’s not even a joint base, it’s a US base. It seems very odd to me, based on the whole history of UK involvement with the US in Chagos, where UK have been so subservient, the US would allow such a clause on use of their own base.

    As for 2012 and all that, the UK government would try to bundle DG in with the others to aid their pushback - but they were likely wrong. Technically UK island, but not UK base.
    Either way Starmer and Davey stand up to Trump

    Badenoch and Farage lie down sunserviently

    In the court of public opinion I'd say Keir and Ed have it 70 to 30.

    It’s not as glib as that though. In the bigger picture, planes that don’t come back and service lives lost, Starmer will be relentlessly blamed for these deaths from politicians on both sides of the Atlantic. Labour will be blamed long after Starmer and his government are gone. I don’t think Starmer and advisors around him are smart enough to realise this.

    Think of every single UK front page, the coffins of our allies with flag draped over them a picture of laughing Ayatollah inset. “You happy which side you picked, Mr Starmer?” As headline.
    The US has loads of other bases it can use . It’s not essential to use UK ones . Trump can go fxck himself especially after his comments about NATO troops .
    May I ask gently do you have knowledge of the US logistics and capabilities for action against Iran ?
    We've been treated as a glorified Air craft Carrier for long enough

    When we've supported then the ass hole has then claimed we did nothing to help.

    Let him and Netanyahu roll in their own shit.

    We cannot continue to get involved in everyone else's battles.

    We certainly can't support gun toting Zionists.
    Do you support Iran and it's axis of terror ?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 22,163

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    Shame on Starmer if so.
    I’m not going to rise to replying to the uninformed, unChristian warmonger bile you are continually posting.
    I am an atheist. Could not care less about being unChristian.

    Wanting the liberation of Iranians from their brutal dictatorship is not bile.
    I would like to see the Iranian people free from such barbaric masochistic women hating bastards. But that’s not the purpose of the latest round of bombing, is it?
    Well arm yourself with the facts. The Iranian population is one of the best educated in the region and there is no educational discrimination against women. I think you might be confusing Iran with some of the Arab countries such as Saudi Arabia and Iraq where prejudice against women is severe. There are more Iranian female graduates than male ones.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,435

    Brixian59 said:

    nico67 said:

    Brixian59 said:

    MattW said:

    FPT for @MoonRabbit .

    MattW said:

    UK blocking Trump from using RAF bases for strikes on Iran

    The disagreement over the use of British sites is behind the US president’s withdrawal of support for the Chagos Islands deal, The Times understands


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-chagos-islands-deal-iran-attack-british-bases-kcj0gzbr8

    That's a positive.
    It’s very very risky from Starmer. Hard to believe he said no.

    It is a very big moment in UK US special relationship I think. Does anyone have any example of such a request turned down before? I think for Vietnam US never asked Labour government to use an RAF base at any point?

    If Kemi says she would have given a different answer, straight away a huge and explosive differential between Conservative and Labour. Because, if any US plane goes down, with U’S service lives lost, anywhere in the battle space, Trump will blame the British Labour government for their deaths.
    Yes - I have such an example.

    The Conservative Government in 2012 rebuffed any attempt to use Diego-Garcia for a pre-emptive attack on Iran in advance, because they had official legal advice that could be against international law.

    The Guardian has been told that US diplomats have also lobbied for the use of British bases in Cyprus, and for permission to fly from US bases on Ascension Island in the Atlantic and Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, both of which are British territories.
    ..
    The UK would be in breach of international law if it facilitated what amounted to a pre-emptive strike on Iran," said a senior Whitehall source. "It is explicit. The government has been using this to push back against the Americans."
    ..
    "I think the US has been surprised that ministers have been reluctant to provide assurances about this kind of upfront assistance," said one source. "They'd expect resistance from senior Liberal Democrats, but it's Tories as well. That has come as a bit of a surprise."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/25/uk-reject-us-request-bases-iran

    It will be fun if SKS finds that, given that the Shadow Def Sec is jumping up and down demanding the Govt do the opposite.
    From The Times.
    “Under the terms of long-standing agreements with Washington, these bases {Times includes Diego Garcia} can only be used for military operations that have been agreed in advance with the government.

    I suspect The Times journalism is wrong, and no such agreement applies to Diego Garcia. It’s not an RAF base, it’s not even a joint base, it’s a US base. It seems very odd to me, based on the whole history of UK involvement with the US in Chagos, where UK have been so subservient, the US would allow such a clause on use of their own base.

    As for 2012 and all that, the UK government would try to bundle DG in with the others to aid their pushback - but they were likely wrong. Technically UK island, but not UK base.
    Either way Starmer and Davey stand up to Trump

    Badenoch and Farage lie down sunserviently

    In the court of public opinion I'd say Keir and Ed have it 70 to 30.

    It’s not as glib as that though. In the bigger picture, planes that don’t come back and service lives lost, Starmer will be relentlessly blamed for these deaths from politicians on both sides of the Atlantic. Labour will be blamed long after Starmer and his government are gone. I don’t think Starmer and advisors around him are smart enough to realise this.

    Think of every single UK front page, the coffins of our allies with flag draped over them a picture of laughing Ayatollah inset. “You happy which side you picked, Mr Starmer?” As headline.
    The US has loads of other bases it can use . It’s not essential to use UK ones . Trump can go fxck himself especially after his comments about NATO troops .
    May I ask gently do you have knowledge of the US logistics and capabilities for action against Iran ?
    We've been treated as a glorified Air craft Carrier for long enough

    When we've supported then the ass hole has then claimed we did nothing to help.

    Let him and Netanyahu roll in their own shit.

    We cannot continue to get involved in everyone else's battles.

    We certainly can't support gun toting Zionists.
    Do you support Iran and it's axis of terror ?
    He supports Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas and anyone who'd wish death on "Zionists".
  • SonofContrarianSonofContrarian Posts: 283

    nico67 said:

    So every misadventure the US wants to get into should now be backed by the UK incase it goes badly and they lose troops!

    Bombing Iran won’t lead to regime change and we wouldn’t be here if Trump hadn’t torn up the original agreement.

    Regime change is absolutely what should be the objective and we should be pushing hard for it, not because of Trump, but because it is the right thing to do.
    Just another neo-con adventure then..which will no doubt end up with the same results as Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya..💩
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,435

    nico67 said:

    So every misadventure the US wants to get into should now be backed by the UK incase it goes badly and they lose troops!

    Bombing Iran won’t lead to regime change and we wouldn’t be here if Trump hadn’t torn up the original agreement.

    Regime change is absolutely what should be the objective and we should be pushing hard for it, not because of Trump, but because it is the right thing to do.
    Just another neo-con adventure then..which will no doubt end up with the same results as Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya..💩
    I'd take that.

    Iraq and Libya at least are a huge improvement on Iran under the Mullahs.

    Afghanistan isn't, but as Meat Loaf said, two out of three ain't bad.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,817
    viewcode said:
    Sad but true. Build railways or face ruin!
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,530

    nico67 said:

    So every misadventure the US wants to get into should now be backed by the UK incase it goes badly and they lose troops!

    Bombing Iran won’t lead to regime change and we wouldn’t be here if Trump hadn’t torn up the original agreement.

    Regime change is absolutely what should be the objective and we should be pushing hard for it, not because of Trump, but because it is the right thing to do.
    Not saying it’s wrong but who defines ‘right’ or is this the Bart Dictat?
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