Skip to content

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Marf on tax planning

SystemSystem Posts: 12,685
edited February 2015 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Marf on tax planning

politicalbetting.com is proudly powered by WordPress
with "Neat!" theme. Entries (RSS) and Comments (RSS).

Read the full story here


«134

Comments

  • DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    edited February 2015
    1st...

    Can't see a cartoon.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    I get an advert for the new statesman.

    Very postmodern, marf.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    DaemonBarber said:

    1st...

    Can't see a cartoon.

    Maybe it's a tax-efficient "cartoon".
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Make mine a 99.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,895
    I can see it. Huzzah!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,792
    Oh feckpissandshite.

    Some numpty forget to stick the cartoon in.

    Should be fixed now.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,114
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Oh feckpissandshite.

    Some numpty forget to stick the cartoon in.

    Should be fixed now.

    I'm actually glad I followed you in on the Twickers tip now given that BES model.

    Modelling the Lib Dems expected performance is a very hard task.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    john l Jones UKIP ‏@jlj21964 52s53 seconds ago
    BBC Bias Is Destroying Serious Debate On Immigration Says New Report - Breitbart http://bit.ly/16XM3dv via @BreitbartNews
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,898
    Memo to self: feckpissandshite gets through the censor.....
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,061
    I think that for the the Tories to have a Treasurer who says on the record that "we are all tax avoiders" will return to haunt them. Can't see how Labour has come out of this as the loser to be honest.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited February 2015
    OllyT said:

    I think that for the the Tories to have a Treasurer who says on the record that "we are all tax avoiders" will return to haunt them. Can't see how Labour has come out of this as the loser to be honest.

    He's right though.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    OllyT said:

    Can't see how Labour has come out of this as the loser to be honest.

    Labour now have to craft a definition of Tax Avoider that excludes Ed
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,114
    Btw Rod's L&N model has the Conservatives with a 100% chance of a majority still.

    I guess "Scotland" is the caveat he will apply...

    If Con + SNP adds up to a majority he can claim a vindication of sorts ;)
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,792
    Pulpstar said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Oh feckpissandshite.

    Some numpty forget to stick the cartoon in.

    Should be fixed now.

    I'm actually glad I followed you in on the Twickers tip now given that BES model.

    Modelling the Lib Dems expected performance is a very hard task.
    The Oakeshott ICM poll had Cable losing. If the Lib Dems are polling this bad with phone pollsters then we're placing an awful lot of faith in the largely untested Ashcroft polls.

    Lord A might well be proven right but given the national polling would be daft not to take out some cover on the Lib Dems getting the dockside hooker treatment.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,629
    I presume Ed is going to be writing lots of big cheques to return all the money Labour has taken from anybody who has employed any tax avoidance?
  • isamisam Posts: 42,632
    Lead story in telegraph email

    'Ed Miliband repeats Lotd Fink tax claims outside parliament"

  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    OllyT said:

    I think that for the the Tories to have a Treasurer who says on the record that "we are all tax avoiders" will return to haunt them. Can't see how Labour has come out of this as the loser to be honest.

    Because outside of a few labour obsessives who were going to vote Labour anyway, the public mostly wont care, and almost certainly won't remember it in a months time. Politically engaged people on this forum constantly overestimate the amount of "a crap" that the public give unless it effects them (or appears to effect them) directly. Taxes, employment, prices of petrol and booze, absolutely, what some lord did with his money, yawn, watch as they all turn over to Celebrity Big Brother.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    A lot of people will be disgusted by the idea that "everyone does tax evasion".
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,703
    Pedant alert.

    May I suggest that the firms name, as shown on the window should be Dodgy, Dodgy & Co, Not Dodgy & Dodgy & Co
    Unless of course Messrs Dodgy merged with Messrs Dodgy & Co.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    AndyJS said:

    A lot of people will be disgusted by the idea that "everyone does tax evasion".

    Who said that?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,629
    edited February 2015
    AndyJS said:

    A lot of people will be disgusted by the idea that "everyone does tax evasion".

    evasion or avoidance? Big difference, I avoid tax, I stick my money in ISAs, pension plans, etc, I most certainly don't evade tax.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited February 2015
    AndyJS said:

    A lot of people will be disgusted by the idea that "everyone does tax evasion".

    No they wont. Almost everyone pays their builder/window cleaner/gardener with cash. They know they are likely to be paying less tax than they should as a result. Their reaction is largely between an indifferent shrug and "good luck to him".

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,716
    AndyJS said:

    A lot of people will be disgusted by the idea that "everyone does tax evasion".

    avoidance
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,792
    AndyJS said:

    A lot of people will be disgusted by the idea that "everyone does tax evasion".

    Except he didn't say that did he?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,629
    edited February 2015
    Indigo said:

    OllyT said:

    I think that for the the Tories to have a Treasurer who says on the record that "we are all tax avoiders" will return to haunt them. Can't see how Labour has come out of this as the loser to be honest.

    Because outside of a few labour obsessives who were going to vote Labour anyway, the public mostly wont care, and almost certainly won't remember it in a months time. Politically engaged people on this forum constantly overestimate the amount of "a crap" that the public give unless it effects them (or appears to effect them) directly. Taxes, employment, prices of petrol and booze, absolutely, what some lord did with his money, yawn, watch as they all turn over to Celebrity Big Brother.
    The Lord Freud "gaffes" soon passed, and he made some big ones (albeit again factually correct statements) on several occasions.

    However Ed has definitely won this round. He has managed to smear the Tories with a brush that his party are equally guilty off, but nobody is talking about. Job done. Everybody is talking about Fink, not Lord Paul or John Mills (which could easily be the case).
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,703
    Indigo said:

    AndyJS said:

    A lot of people will be disgusted by the idea that "everyone does tax evasion".

    No they wont. Almost everyone pays their builder/window cleaner/gardener with cash. They know they are likely to be paying less tax than they should as a result. Their reaction is largely between an indifferent shrug and "good luck to him".

    Are you suggesting the window cleaner should carry a card-payment machine?
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Labour seem to have dug a terrific elephant trap...and then jumped in..planks.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Following heated discussions on here earlier in the week, I thought people might find this of interest.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,114
    Indigo said:

    AndyJS said:

    A lot of people will be disgusted by the idea that "everyone does tax evasion".

    No they wont. Almost everyone pays their builder/window cleaner/gardener with cash. They know they are likely to be paying less tax than they should as a result. Their reaction is largely between an indifferent shrug and "good luck to him".

    This is an area where people are massively hypocritical too - for your sparky to do it is OK.... Best of luck to him, for big party donors it is right out :P
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,716
    OldKingCole said:

    Indigo said:

    AndyJS said:

    A lot of people will be disgusted by the idea that "everyone does tax evasion".

    No they wont. Almost everyone pays their builder/window cleaner/gardener with cash. They know they are likely to be paying less tax than they should as a result. Their reaction is largely between an indifferent shrug and "good luck to him".

    Are you suggesting the window cleaner should carry a card-payment machine?
    You can get tiny card readers the plug into your iphone these days.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Off topic but a tremendous article - it's about the woman who tweeted “Going to Africa. Hope I don’t get AIDS. Just kidding. I’m white!” just before she got on a plane and arrived to a worldwide maelstrom...

    http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/magazine/how-one-stupid-tweet-ruined-justine-saccos-life.html?referrer=&_r=0
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    However Ed has definitely won this round. He has managed to smear the Tories with a brush that his party are equally guilty off, but nobody is talking about.

    More than one journalist is asking about deeds of variation.

    He may have won the skirmish, but opened an entirely new front that may not be terribly well defended...
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Scott_P said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    However Ed has definitely won this round. He has managed to smear the Tories with a brush that his party are equally guilty off, but nobody is talking about.

    More than one journalist is asking about deeds of variation.

    He may have won the skirmish, but opened an entirely new front that may not be terribly well defended...
    Never mind the tax, someone should ask him if he thinks his dad really wanted his will amended.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,061
    Scott_P said:

    OllyT said:

    Can't see how Labour has come out of this as the loser to be honest.

    Labour now have to craft a definition of Tax Avoider that excludes Ed
    Unfortunately for the Tories most voters understand there is a difference between having an ISA and having millions in Swiss bank accounts. However desperately you try to spin it there is only one loser on this issue - it plays to what millions of voters dislike about the Tories in the first place. I don't know why Tory HQ don't just try and kill the story.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Tissue_Price said:

    AndyJS said:

    A lot of people will be disgusted by the idea that "everyone does tax evasion".

    Who said that?
    I didn't mention any names.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,810
    Rob's graph is worth looking at (it's bang up to date and the last average point is the 15 day period ending today - so it's a robust data point).

    - UKIP moving down consistently since end of October - only gradually but very steady direction of travel

    - Greens have turned down in the last 15 day period - for the first time after constant growth since end of August

    - LDs generally more flat but if anything still edging lower

    Conclusion: Things are starting to move back towards Con and Lab (collectively).

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1v1-aXNoGwZSLOIWziLoqq9rbN3MHg6qezWKbjsAkunw/edit?pli=1#gid=1268197642
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,936
    Love the dodgy cartoon, Marf :)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,716
    OllyT said:

    Scott_P said:

    OllyT said:

    Can't see how Labour has come out of this as the loser to be honest.

    Labour now have to craft a definition of Tax Avoider that excludes Ed
    Unfortunately for the Tories most voters understand there is a difference between having an ISA and having millions in Swiss bank accounts. However desperately you try to spin it there is only one loser on this issue - it plays to what millions of voters dislike about the Tories in the first place. I don't know why Tory HQ don't just try and kill the story.
    Wasn't Fink actually working/living in Switzerland at the time? Yes, his salary may have been big, but it's not unusual to have a bank account in the country in which you live.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,984
    edited February 2015
    Tissue_Price said:

    Scott_P said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    However Ed has definitely won this round. He has managed to smear the Tories with a brush that his party are equally guilty off, but nobody is talking about.

    More than one journalist is asking about deeds of variation.

    He may have won the skirmish, but opened an entirely new front that may not be terribly well defended...
    Never mind the tax, someone should ask him if he thinks his dad really wanted his will amended.
    Not relevant for a Deed of Variation. It is the beneficiaries who must agree.

    This may awaken the sleeping policy area that is IHT though. Cameron muttered something about doing something on this front in time for the election but been silence since. No doubt an announcement (£1m ?) was being lined up for the actual campaign.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    edited February 2015
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Indigo said:

    OllyT said:

    I think that for the the Tories to have a Treasurer who says on the record that "we are all tax avoiders" will return to haunt them. Can't see how Labour has come out of this as the loser to be honest.

    Because outside of a few labour obsessives who were going to vote Labour anyway, the public mostly wont care, and almost certainly won't remember it in a months time. Politically engaged people on this forum constantly overestimate the amount of "a crap" that the public give unless it effects them (or appears to effect them) directly. Taxes, employment, prices of petrol and booze, absolutely, what some lord did with his money, yawn, watch as they all turn over to Celebrity Big Brother.
    The Lord Freud "gaffes" soon passed, and he did it on one than occasion,

    However Ed has definitely won this round. He has managed to smear the Tories with a brush that his party are equally guilty off, but nobody is talking about. Job done. Everybody is talking about Fink, not Lord Paul or John Mills (which could easily be the case).

    Ken thought he'd won against Boris over tax too.

    I find the "tax avoidance" issue an incredible one to bring up, such a huge risk of blow-back. Did not MPs "flip" their homes to avoid capital gains tax? There are so many ways this can go wrong for Labour.

    But perhaps the smears about the Tories are their best hope, so they don't care?

  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    OldKingCole said:

    Indigo said:

    AndyJS said:

    A lot of people will be disgusted by the idea that "everyone does tax evasion".

    No they wont. Almost everyone pays their builder/window cleaner/gardener with cash. They know they are likely to be paying less tax than they should as a result. Their reaction is largely between an indifferent shrug and "good luck to him".

    Are you suggesting the window cleaner should carry a card-payment machine?
    On the contrary I think we should stop worrying about it. The country has bigger fish to fry than worry about if a window cleaner has pocketed an extra couple of quid at the end of the day, and any effort to recover it would be disproportionately expensive compared to the possible amounts received.

    A decade or so ago before Customs merged with the Inland Revenue I was closing down a limited company of which I was a director. The IR wrote back to me with a sheaf of paperwork which resulted in them collecting £17.60 from me in outstanding tax, at who knows what expense to process it. Customs wrote to me and told me that if I owed them less than the VAT on £5000 they were not interested as it would be uneconomical to process it and I should return it to the shareholders. One approach strikes me as rather more sensible than the other.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    rottenborough said:

    Tissue_Price said:

    Scott_P said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    However Ed has definitely won this round. He has managed to smear the Tories with a brush that his party are equally guilty off, but nobody is talking about.

    More than one journalist is asking about deeds of variation.

    He may have won the skirmish, but opened an entirely new front that may not be terribly well defended...
    Never mind the tax, someone should ask him if he thinks his dad really wanted his will amended.
    Not relevant for a Deed of Variation. It is the beneficiaries who must agree.

    This may awaken the sleeping policy area that is IHT though. Cameron muttered something about doing something on this front in time for the election but been silence since. No doubt this announcement (£1m ?) was being lined up for the actual campaign.
    I know it's not relevant, but is it moral? Since that's what we have to judge by now, apparently.

    Ed's dad was extremely left-wing, extremely bright and presumably capable of writing whatever will he wanted to. He might well have wanted the tax paid on his estate.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,984
    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    Love the dodgy cartoon, Marf :)

    ...and love the shark on the desk. Or is this a sneaky reference to Helena Bonham Carter and her fish campaign?
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800
    OllyT said:

    Scott_P said:

    OllyT said:

    Can't see how Labour has come out of this as the loser to be honest.

    Labour now have to craft a definition of Tax Avoider that excludes Ed
    Unfortunately for the Tories most voters understand there is a difference between having an ISA and having millions in Swiss bank accounts. However desperately you try to spin it there is only one loser on this issue - it plays to what millions of voters dislike about the Tories in the first place. I don't know why Tory HQ don't just try and kill the story.
    Having a Swiss bank account when you live and work in Switzerland is not exactly unusual wouldn't you have thought?

    Are you being deliberately stupid or just selective?
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,061
    Indigo said:

    OllyT said:

    I think that for the the Tories to have a Treasurer who says on the record that "we are all tax avoiders" will return to haunt them. Can't see how Labour has come out of this as the loser to be honest.

    Because outside of a few labour obsessives who were going to vote Labour anyway, the public mostly wont care, and almost certainly won't remember it in a months time. Politically engaged people on this forum constantly overestimate the amount of "a crap" that the public give unless it effects them (or appears to effect them) directly. Taxes, employment, prices of petrol and booze, absolutely, what some lord did with his money, yawn, watch as they all turn over to Celebrity Big Brother.
    Nice try but there is a huge amount of polling evidence that points to the fact that the Tories have a huge problem because of the perception that they primarily look after wealthy . If it only mattered to "labour obsessives" you would have a point, the problem is it doesn't.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    AndyJS said:

    Tissue_Price said:

    AndyJS said:

    A lot of people will be disgusted by the idea that "everyone does tax evasion".

    Who said that?
    I didn't mention any names.
    But you put it in quote marks. Who are you quoting?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,984
    MarkHopkins said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Indigo said:

    OllyT said:

    I think that for the the Tories to have a Treasurer who says on the record that "we are all tax avoiders" will return to haunt them. Can't see how Labour has come out of this as the loser to be honest.

    Because outside of a few labour obsessives who were going to vote Labour anyway, the public mostly wont care, and almost certainly won't remember it in a months time. Politically engaged people on this forum constantly overestimate the amount of "a crap" that the public give unless it effects them (or appears to effect them) directly. Taxes, employment, prices of petrol and booze, absolutely, what some lord did with his money, yawn, watch as they all turn over to Celebrity Big Brother.
    The Lord Freud "gaffes" soon passed, and he did it on one than occasion,

    However Ed has definitely won this round. He has managed to smear the Tories with a brush that his party are equally guilty off, but nobody is talking about. Job done. Everybody is talking about Fink, not Lord Paul or John Mills (which could easily be the case).

    Ken thought he'd won against Boris over tax too.

    I find the "tax avoidance" issue an incredible one to bring up, such a huge risk of blow-back. Did not MPs "flip" their homes to avoid capital gains tax? There are so many ways this can go wrong for Labour.

    But perhaps the smears about the Tories are their best hope, so they don't care?

    Back in 2009, Telegraph reported that Ed Balls had flipped homes 3 times.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,543
    MikeL said:

    Rob's graph is worth looking at (it's bang up to date and the last average point is the 15 day period ending today - so it's a robust data point).

    - UKIP moving down consistently since end of October - only gradually but very steady direction of travel

    - Greens have turned down in the last 15 day period - for the first time after constant growth since end of August

    - LDs generally more flat but if anything still edging lower

    Conclusion: Things are starting to move back towards Con and Lab (collectively).

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1v1-aXNoGwZSLOIWziLoqq9rbN3MHg6qezWKbjsAkunw/edit?pli=1#gid=1268197642

    UKIP support tends to peak straight after events like the European elections, or a by-election win (hence, the most recent peaks in October and November) . It's still 3% above where it was 12 months ago, on average (and 3% above the dip in July 2014).
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited February 2015
    Tissue_Price said:

    AndyJS said:

    Tissue_Price said:

    AndyJS said:

    A lot of people will be disgusted by the idea that "everyone does tax evasion".

    Who said that?
    I didn't mention any names.
    But you put it in quote marks. Who are you quoting?
    Apologies I meant to say tax avoidance. It was a genuine mistake with words. I won't post again on here.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    Some praise for ED success.

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9438172/ed-milibands-biggest-critics-dont-hate-him-for-how-hes-failed-they-hate-him-for-how-hes-succeeded/

  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    edited February 2015
    AndyJS said:

    Tissue_Price said:

    AndyJS said:

    Tissue_Price said:

    AndyJS said:

    A lot of people will be disgusted by the idea that "everyone does tax evasion".

    Who said that?
    I didn't mention any names.
    But you put it in quote marks. Who are you quoting?
    Apologies I meant to say tax avoidance. It was a genuine mistake with words. I won't post again on here.
    No need to do that, was just querying it. Didn't seem like you.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,936
    Sean_F said:

    MikeL said:

    Rob's graph is worth looking at (it's bang up to date and the last average point is the 15 day period ending today - so it's a robust data point).

    - UKIP moving down consistently since end of October - only gradually but very steady direction of travel

    - Greens have turned down in the last 15 day period - for the first time after constant growth since end of August

    - LDs generally more flat but if anything still edging lower

    Conclusion: Things are starting to move back towards Con and Lab (collectively).

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1v1-aXNoGwZSLOIWziLoqq9rbN3MHg6qezWKbjsAkunw/edit?pli=1#gid=1268197642

    UKIP support tends to peak straight after events like the European elections, or a by-election win (hence, the most recent peaks in October and November) . It's still 3% above where it was 12 months ago, on average (and 3% above the dip in July 2014).
    There's my weekly ELBOW graph too (last updated Sunday).

    https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/564397207026425856

    And also the monthly "super-ELBOW" graph since August:

    https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/564030761100402689
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,795
    RobD said:

    OllyT said:

    Scott_P said:

    OllyT said:

    Can't see how Labour has come out of this as the loser to be honest.

    Labour now have to craft a definition of Tax Avoider that excludes Ed
    Unfortunately for the Tories most voters understand there is a difference between having an ISA and having millions in Swiss bank accounts. However desperately you try to spin it there is only one loser on this issue - it plays to what millions of voters dislike about the Tories in the first place. I don't know why Tory HQ don't just try and kill the story.
    Wasn't Fink actually working/living in Switzerland at the time? Yes, his salary may have been big, but it's not unusual to have a bank account in the country in which you live.
    Depends what sort of account.

    A normal account would be....well, normal. A numbered account would be rather more interesting.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,543
    Ed Milliband v Lord Fink is not a big political issue, and won't switch many votes one way or the other, but I think it's pointless to argue that rows about tax avoidance are ever going to be good for the Conservatives

    It may be hypocritical, but most people draw a very clear distinction between ISA's, booze cruises, Deeds of Family Arrangement, etc. and the more complicated forms of tax planning.
  • Hertsmere_PubgoerHertsmere_Pubgoer Posts: 3,476
    Apologies if someone has already posted something similar.

    With all this talk of tax avoidance. Are we into the realms of an irregular verb?
    I tax plan efficiently.
    You avoid tax
    He/she is evil and depriving the NHS of kidney machines for not paying their fare share.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,716
    AndyJS said:

    Tissue_Price said:

    AndyJS said:

    Tissue_Price said:

    AndyJS said:

    A lot of people will be disgusted by the idea that "everyone does tax evasion".

    Who said that?
    I didn't mention any names.
    But you put it in quote marks. Who are you quoting?
    Apologies I meant to say tax avoidance. It was a genuine mistake with words. I won't post again on here.
    Come now, I know we are a pedantic bunch!
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Sean_F said:

    Ed Milliband v Lord Fink is not a big political issue, and won't switch many votes one way or the other, but I think it's pointless to argue that rows about tax avoidance are ever going to be good for the Conservatives

    It may be hypocritical, but most people draw a very clear distinction between ISA's, booze cruises, Deeds of Family Arrangement, etc. and the more complicated forms of tax planning.

    Absolutely the Tories need to close this down and move on - arguing over semantics etc. isn't really going to make a whole lot of difference. What's curious is that Labour (and their allies) have fired this weapon so early.

    Either they've got better ammunition in reserve or they felt they needed to do something drastic having been perceived to have had a pretty poor start to the campaign.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,898
    edited February 2015
    AndyJS said:

    A lot of people will be disgusted by the idea that "everyone does tax evasion".

    Now suggesting anyone wealthy has said that might prove VERY expensive!

    Tax evasion - criminal. Done by criminals. All agree on that. No sympathy from anyone.

    Tax avoidance - on the face of it, legal. However, the politics of tax avoidance are more nuanced. Basically, wealthy people think tax avoidance is all part of the game. Pay what you are legally required, but make sure you claim every possible allowance. Which is an entirely legitimate position, supported by the rule of law. Poorer people however - who are merely external spectators in this game - may find this morally repugnant. So they readily equate tax avoidance with tax evasion. "It's just the rich looking after themselves...."

    (Although, if they suddenly got a large windfall, you can be sure they would soon change their tune and be claiming all the allowances they could!)

    Miliband is playing on this dichotomy. Which is a bit, er, rich, given he has played the Inheritance Tax game in a way which would fall foul of those same tax spectators view of things. Which is where he is at some risk in this whole grubby affair.

    But the Coalition have made going on this a bigger prize for Labour. Basically, those who don't pay tax see tax paid by others as something there for them to use. So by taking millions of the lowest paid out of tax altogether, the coalition has perhaps increased those who see avoidance = evasion....

    But hopefully we here are people who see through this avoidance = evasion loose talk.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,795
    AndyJS said:

    Tissue_Price said:

    AndyJS said:

    Tissue_Price said:

    AndyJS said:

    A lot of people will be disgusted by the idea that "everyone does tax evasion".

    Who said that?
    I didn't mention any names.
    But you put it in quote marks. Who are you quoting?
    Apologies I meant to say tax avoidance. It was a genuine mistake with words. I won't post again on here.
    Hey, don't do that, Andy!

    We like your posts. Well I do, anyway. You are by no means the first on hre to confuse evasion and avoidance. Watcher did exactly the same on the previous thread.

    The mistake has been acknowledged. Not sure an apology was necessary, but that's cool anyway.

    Post on.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited February 2015
    Sean_F said:

    Ed Milliband v Lord Fink is not a big political issue, and won't switch many votes one way or the other, but I think it's pointless to argue that rows about tax avoidance are ever going to be good for the Conservatives

    It may be hypocritical, but most people draw a very clear distinction between ISA's, booze cruises, Deeds of Family Arrangement, etc. and the more complicated forms of tax planning.

    I think that unless they had prior knowledge, most would put Deed of Family Arrangement in the latter category. How many people know about them? I didn't until the Miliband story broke, and Old Man Watcher was a lawyer who probably drew them up.

    Changing the terms of a will after someone's death would sound very fishy to your average Joe, regardless of it's legality.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    I need to stop posting if I'm going to mix up simple words like this.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    OllyT said:

    Indigo said:

    OllyT said:

    I think that for the the Tories to have a Treasurer who says on the record that "we are all tax avoiders" will return to haunt them. Can't see how Labour has come out of this as the loser to be honest.

    Because outside of a few labour obsessives who were going to vote Labour anyway, the public mostly wont care, and almost certainly won't remember it in a months time. Politically engaged people on this forum constantly overestimate the amount of "a crap" that the public give unless it effects them (or appears to effect them) directly. Taxes, employment, prices of petrol and booze, absolutely, what some lord did with his money, yawn, watch as they all turn over to Celebrity Big Brother.
    Nice try but there is a huge amount of polling evidence that points to the fact that the Tories have a huge problem because of the perception that they primarily look after wealthy . If it only mattered to "labour obsessives" you would have a point, the problem is it doesn't.
    The Tories don't have enough votes because Cameron managed to alienate his right wing, not because he didn't pick up enough guardian readers that get uptight about the tax affairs of Tory donors. Its arguable the case that is matters *now* because he drove off his core vote, but I am rather unsympathetic about self-inflicted injuries like that.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,114
    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    Sean_F said:

    MikeL said:

    Rob's graph is worth looking at (it's bang up to date and the last average point is the 15 day period ending today - so it's a robust data point).

    - UKIP moving down consistently since end of October - only gradually but very steady direction of travel

    - Greens have turned down in the last 15 day period - for the first time after constant growth since end of August

    - LDs generally more flat but if anything still edging lower

    Conclusion: Things are starting to move back towards Con and Lab (collectively).

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1v1-aXNoGwZSLOIWziLoqq9rbN3MHg6qezWKbjsAkunw/edit?pli=1#gid=1268197642

    UKIP support tends to peak straight after events like the European elections, or a by-election win (hence, the most recent peaks in October and November) . It's still 3% above where it was 12 months ago, on average (and 3% above the dip in July 2014).
    There's my weekly ELBOW graph too (last updated Sunday).

    https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/564397207026425856

    And also the monthly "super-ELBOW" graph since August:

    https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/564030761100402689
    Scotland masks how well Labour is doing in England... slightly.

    Even though a graph would show them behind, it's very good news for them if they come within a couple of percent in England.
  • Hertsmere_PubgoerHertsmere_Pubgoer Posts: 3,476
    AndyJS said:

    I need to stop posting if I'm going to mix up simple words like this.

    I like your posts too.

  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,795
    Tissue_Price said:

    Sean_F said:

    Ed Milliband v Lord Fink is not a big political issue, and won't switch many votes one way or the other, but I think it's pointless to argue that rows about tax avoidance are ever going to be good for the Conservatives

    It may be hypocritical, but most people draw a very clear distinction between ISA's, booze cruises, Deeds of Family Arrangement, etc. and the more complicated forms of tax planning.

    Absolutely the Tories need to close this down and move on - arguing over semantics etc. isn't really going to make a whole lot of difference. What's curious is that Labour (and their allies) have fired this weapon so early.

    Either they've got better ammunition in reserve or they felt they needed to do something drastic having been perceived to have had a pretty poor start to the campaign.
    It was a bit of a gift, TP.

    Personally I think Ed was entitled to ask what he did, but there was a perfectly straight forward answer available to Cameron - something along the lines of 'Lord Fink arranges his affairs to minimise his taxes in accordance with the law, and as long as a person stays within the law his tax affairs are nobody's business but his - as your Father I am sure would have taught you.'

    End of?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,703
    Indigo said:

    OldKingCole said:

    Indigo said:

    AndyJS said:

    A lot of people will be disgusted by the idea that "everyone does tax evasion".

    No they wont. Almost everyone pays their builder/window cleaner/gardener with cash. They know they are likely to be paying less tax than they should as a result. Their reaction is largely between an indifferent shrug and "good luck to him".

    Are you suggesting the window cleaner should carry a card-payment machine?
    On the contrary I think we should stop worrying about it. The country has bigger fish to fry than worry about if a window cleaner has pocketed an extra couple of quid at the end of the day, and any effort to recover it would be disproportionately expensive compared to the possible amounts received.

    A decade or so ago before Customs merged with the Inland Revenue I was closing down a limited company of which I was a director. The IR wrote back to me with a sheaf of paperwork which resulted in them collecting £17.60 from me in outstanding tax, at who knows what expense to process it. Customs wrote to me and told me that if I owed them less than the VAT on £5000 they were not interested as it would be uneconomical to process it and I should return it to the shareholders. One approach strikes me as rather more sensible than the other.
    In my directing/trading days I always found the IR sniffily pedantic and C&E being prepared to discuss.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,936
    AndyJS said:

    I need to stop posting if I'm going to mix up simple words like this.

    Everybody mixes up simple words from time to time!
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    AndyJS said:

    I need to stop posting if I'm going to mix up simple words like this.

    Can I echo PtP's sentiments? I hope you reconsider - we've all made inadvertent mistakes on here and a correction is all that's ever needed.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,716
    AndyJS said:

    I need to stop posting if I'm going to mix up simple words like this.

    I'd say they are easy to mix up, especially if you aren't involved in tax affairs on a day-to-day basis. Can you imagine the furore if Miliband had slipped and said evasion instead of avoidance!!
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,795
    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    AndyJS said:

    I need to stop posting if I'm going to mix up simple words like this.

    Everybody mixes up simple words from time to time!
    Absolutely.

    Tax avoidance is legal, but tax evasion is a different gether altothing.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,895
    Mr. Indigo, indeed. He was trying to capture territory which, for the blues, was a quagmire. In so doing he neglected potentially fertile territory, which is now being farmed by Farage, aided by a number of farmhands who got tired of waiting for their old boss to stop dicking about in a swamp.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Indigo said:

    OllyT said:

    Indigo said:

    OllyT said:

    I think that for the the Tories to have a Treasurer who says on the record that "we are all tax avoiders" will return to haunt them. Can't see how Labour has come out of this as the loser to be honest.

    Because outside of a few labour obsessives who were going to vote Labour anyway, the public mostly wont care, and almost certainly won't remember it in a months time. Politically engaged people on this forum constantly overestimate the amount of "a crap" that the public give unless it effects them (or appears to effect them) directly. Taxes, employment, prices of petrol and booze, absolutely, what some lord did with his money, yawn, watch as they all turn over to Celebrity Big Brother.
    Nice try but there is a huge amount of polling evidence that points to the fact that the Tories have a huge problem because of the perception that they primarily look after wealthy . If it only mattered to "labour obsessives" you would have a point, the problem is it doesn't.
    The Tories don't have enough votes because Cameron managed to alienate his right wing, not because he didn't pick up enough guardian readers that get uptight about the tax affairs of Tory donors. Its arguable the case that is matters *now* because he drove off his core vote, but I am rather unsympathetic about self-inflicted injuries like that.
    It seems strange to criticise Cameron for alienating his right wing just after dismissing Miliband's actions as only appealing to his left wing. Especially with a lot of Lab-SNP seats that could go either way, and the greens still sniffing around.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,716
    Peter_the_Punter said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    AndyJS said:

    I need to stop posting if I'm going to mix up simple words like this.

    Everybody mixes up simple words from time to time!
    Absolutely.

    Tax avoidance is legal, but tax evasion is a different gether altothing.
    Bless you! (I can only imagine that you sneezed at the end there).
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @RobD
    By the look of him just as he asked the question to Dave, he was very wary of that mistake.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    A spokesman for Mr Miliband said that “no one connected to Ed Miliband” used the phrase “Milly Dowler moment”.

    However, the spokesman did not deny that Milly Dowler was mentioned while discussing the issue of Lord Fink.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/11409156/Miliband-criticised-over-aides-comparison-of-tax-row-to-Milly-Dowler-case.html
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Peter_the_Punter said:

    Tissue_Price said:

    Sean_F said:

    Ed Milliband v Lord Fink is not a big political issue, and won't switch many votes one way or the other, but I think it's pointless to argue that rows about tax avoidance are ever going to be good for the Conservatives

    It may be hypocritical, but most people draw a very clear distinction between ISA's, booze cruises, Deeds of Family Arrangement, etc. and the more complicated forms of tax planning.

    Absolutely the Tories need to close this down and move on - arguing over semantics etc. isn't really going to make a whole lot of difference. What's curious is that Labour (and their allies) have fired this weapon so early.

    Either they've got better ammunition in reserve or they felt they needed to do something drastic having been perceived to have had a pretty poor start to the campaign.
    It was a bit of a gift, TP.

    Personally I think Ed was entitled to ask what he did, but there was a perfectly straight forward answer available to Cameron - something along the lines of 'Lord Fink arranges his affairs to minimise his taxes in accordance with the law, and as long as a person stays within the law his tax affairs are nobody's business but his - as your Father I am sure would have taught you.'

    End of?
    To be honest, I think Ed was pretty smeary in his specific line of questioning (clearly he was right to go with the topic in general). Which won't do him any harm with the man on the street, but it won't do him any good with the lizards that are actually in control.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    MarqueeMark said:

    But the Coalition have made going on this a bigger prize for Labour. Basically, those who don't pay tax see tax paid by others as something there for them to use. So by taking millions of the lowest paid out of tax altogether, the coalition has perhaps increased those who see avoidance = evasion....

    One of several reason why I have never supported this policy. More importantly if people don't pay tax, they have no reason to be concerned about government spending it properly. Ultimately you get into a position where the majority of the voters are claiming benefits from the work of the minority, which is a very dangerous place to be.

    Personally I thought Brown's 10% starting tax rate was a much more sensible idea albeit not generous enough with its top threshold. A bottom rate of tax of say 10%, or even 5% running from the first pound earned up to say £15,000 would be much more sensible in terms of making voters care about what was being done with their money.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,936
    Peter_the_Punter said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    AndyJS said:

    I need to stop posting if I'm going to mix up simple words like this.

    Everybody mixes up simple words from time to time!
    Absolutely.

    Tax avoidance is legal, but tax evasion is a different gether altothing.
    Very funny, Peter the Putney, I mean Putner, I mean Punter :)
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Scott_P said:

    A spokesman for Mr Miliband said that “no one connected to Ed Miliband” used the phrase “Milly Dowler moment”.

    However, the spokesman did not deny that Milly Dowler was mentioned while discussing the issue of Lord Fink.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/11409156/Miliband-criticised-over-aides-comparison-of-tax-row-to-Milly-Dowler-case.html

    It was just a bit of banter.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,795
    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    Peter_the_Punter said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    AndyJS said:

    I need to stop posting if I'm going to mix up simple words like this.

    Everybody mixes up simple words from time to time!
    Absolutely.

    Tax avoidance is legal, but tax evasion is a different gether altothing.
    Very funny, Peter the Putney, I mean Putner, I mean Punter :)
    Thank you, Sunil.

    That'll be a quid.

  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    TheWatcher said:

    Scott_P said:

    A spokesman for Mr Miliband said that “no one connected to Ed Miliband” used the phrase “Milly Dowler moment”.

    However, the spokesman did not deny that Milly Dowler was mentioned while discussing the issue of Lord Fink.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/11409156/Miliband-criticised-over-aides-comparison-of-tax-row-to-Milly-Dowler-case.html
    It was just a bit of banter.

    Didn't Nick Robinson say:

    Calm down Twitter. I did not quote anyone re Ed M & Milly Dowler. Said his aides saw this as moment like that ie to stand up to powerful
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,716
    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    Peter_the_Punter said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    AndyJS said:

    I need to stop posting if I'm going to mix up simple words like this.

    Everybody mixes up simple words from time to time!
    Absolutely.

    Tax avoidance is legal, but tax evasion is a different gether altothing.
    Very funny, Peter the Putney, I mean Putner, I mean Punter :)
    What we need now is Punter_from_Putney, just to add to the confusion!
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Nick Robinson clearly doesn't rate Ed Miliband [and Ed's operation] in the slightest. Dismiss him as a Tory if you like.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Stereotomy said:

    Indigo said:

    OllyT said:

    Indigo said:

    OllyT said:

    I think that for the the Tories to have a Treasurer who says on the record that "we are all tax avoiders" will return to haunt them. Can't see how Labour has come out of this as the loser to be honest.

    Because outside of a few labour obsessives who were going to vote Labour anyway, the public mostly wont care, and almost certainly won't remember it in a months time. Politically engaged people on this forum constantly overestimate the amount of "a crap" that the public give unless it effects them (or appears to effect them) directly. Taxes, employment, prices of petrol and booze, absolutely, what some lord did with his money, yawn, watch as they all turn over to Celebrity Big Brother.
    Nice try but there is a huge amount of polling evidence that points to the fact that the Tories have a huge problem because of the perception that they primarily look after wealthy . If it only mattered to "labour obsessives" you would have a point, the problem is it doesn't.
    The Tories don't have enough votes because Cameron managed to alienate his right wing, not because he didn't pick up enough guardian readers that get uptight about the tax affairs of Tory donors. Its arguable the case that is matters *now* because he drove off his core vote, but I am rather unsympathetic about self-inflicted injuries like that.
    It seems strange to criticise Cameron for alienating his right wing just after dismissing Miliband's actions as only appealing to his left wing. Especially with a lot of Lab-SNP seats that could go either way, and the greens still sniffing around.
    I didn't say Miliband's actions would appeal to his left wing, I said they would appeal to people who would vote Labour anyway. A lot of the most loyal PBTories here are socially liberal centrists so it doesn't necessarily follow that the most likely voters are the more extreme ones. If this tax fuss is going to cause outrage anywhere its going to be the Guardianista's. I somehow cant see the "cash in hand" White van man getting too exercised about it.

    Cameron objectively has alienated his right wing, half or more of UKIP are the socially conservative/patriotic/golfclub/retired colonel traditional Conservative voters. He thought he could move to the centre (as Blair did) and they would have no where else do go (as the Labour left at the time didn't) but he didn't allow for UKIP. I am very doubtful he has picked up much in the middle, because social liberals largely dont like austerity and can get their social liberalism with less (or at least more cuddly) austerity from EdM.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,114
    edited February 2015
    This Nick Robinson/Milly Dowler thing is interesting...

    Nick Robinson's blog:

    "The Labour leader's aides say that he sees this as another Milly Dowler moment"

    Nick Robinson's clarification:

    Calm down Twitter. I did not quote anyone re Ed M & Milly Dowler. Said his aides saw this as moment like that ie to stand up to powerful

    This appears to be a misunderstanding. No-one in Labour used the phrase ‘Milly Dowler moment’.

    Now the Daily Mail is running with:

    "Ed Miliband believes his row over 'dodgy' Tory donors avoiding tax is a 'Millie Dowler moment' where he can stand up for the public against the rich and powerful, his aides have revealed."
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    edited February 2015
    what I want to know is why arent the tories counterattacking Labour on this, goodness knows there is enough panes of glass in their glasshouse to break. Where is Cameron, Where is Osborne, wheres the conservatives attack dogs, where is the tories equivalent to John Reid and Peter Mandleson. I'm sure there's plenty of tax avoidance going on in the Labour camp. Remember Bernie Eccleston, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27144637 or how about Ed Milibands inheritance tax situation, why arent the tories exploiting their hypocrisy, maybe they want to lose
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Indigo said:


    I didn't say Miliband's actions would appeal to his left wing, I said they would appeal to people who would vote Labour anyway.

    Granted. I (perhaps wrongly) extrapolated that the group you were referring to would also cover those who are possible Green or SNP defectors. Any reason you think it wouldn't appeal to them?

    I agree with you on Cameron and UKIP, though to be fair I'm not sure what other way Cameron should have acted given the information he had in 2010. With such a flaccid result in the perfect conditions for an election, and with no sign of UKIP being any risk, what other than reaching for the centre could he really aim for?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,936
    kjohnw said:

    what I want to know is why arent the tories counterattacking Labour on this, goodness knows there is enough panes of glass in their glasshouse to break. Where is Cameron, Where is Osborne, wheres the conservatives attack dogs, where is the tories equivalent to John Reid and Peter Mandleson. I'm sure there's plenty of tax avoidance going on in the Labour camp. Remember Bernie Eccleston, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27144637 or how about Ed Milibands inheritance tax situation, why arent the tories exploiting their hypocrisy, maybe they want to lose

    Inheritance tax situation?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,629
    edited February 2015
    kjohnw said:

    what I want to know is why arent the tories counterattacking Labour on this, goodness knows there is enough panes of glass in their glasshouse to break. Where is Cameron, Where is Osborne, wheres the conservatives attack dogs, where is the tories equivalent to John Reid and Peter Mandleson. I'm sure there's plenty of tax avoidance going on in the Labour camp. Remember Bernie Eccleston, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27144637 or how about Ed Milibands inheritance tax situation, why arent the tories exploiting their hypocrisy, maybe they want to lose

    The Tories are c##p are attacking Labour in these kind of battles.

    Said it before, they just don't have anybody who is able to articulate an attack clearly and concisely and do so without any fear of sounding like a big loud mouth gobs##te. They are very good at getting their attack stories planted in friendly newspapers, but getting on BBC / Sky and ripping the opposition a new one, utter s##t. Whenever they do send people out they get bogged down in either complex explanations, don't repeat the attack line enough or even just too nice.

    If the boot had been on the other foot, Bad Al would have ripped the Tories a new one over Stafford, Rotherham, etc....You would not have been able to turn your tv on without some loud mouth Labour MP screaming about Tory failures over these things, all summed up with a concise attack line that they repeat 1000 times.. Think how they did it over phone hacking.

    Instead Cameron actually ends up kinda of apologizing for the establishment more often than not.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Pulpstar said:

    No-one in Labour used the phrase ‘Milly Dowler moment’.

    According to the Telegraph version posted above, Labour admit to using the words Milly, Dowler and moment, but have made the claim (backed up by Robinson) that they were not used in that order in a single phrase.

    So that's OK then...

    All seems a bit like Ed claiming to have repeated his words today, without actually having said the words again
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    kjohnw said:

    what I want to know is why arent the tories counterattacking Labour on this, goodness knows there is enough panes of glass in their glasshouse to break. Where is Cameron, Where is Osborne, wheres the conservatives attack dogs, where is the tories equivalent to John Reid and Peter Mandleson. I'm sure there's plenty of tax avoidance going on in the Labour camp. Remember Bernie Eccleston, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27144637 or how about Ed Milibands inheritance tax situation, why arent the tories exploiting their hypocrisy, maybe they want to lose

    Inheritance tax situation?
    "He and his brother, David, signed a “deed of variation” along with their mother, Marion, following the death of their father Ralph, an influential Marxist academic, in 1994.
    This gave them each a 20 per cent stake in the four-storey house in Edis Street, reducing the inheritance tax eventually payable on the estate."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/8039829/Red-Ed-Miliband-lives-in-1.6m-house-after-shrewd-property-moves.html
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Pulpstar said:

    This Nick Robinson/Milly Dowler thing is interesting...

    Nick Robinson's blog:

    "The Labour leader's aides say that he sees this as another Milly Dowler moment"

    Nick Robinson's clarification:

    Calm down Twitter. I did not quote anyone re Ed M & Milly Dowler. Said his aides saw this as moment like that ie to stand up to powerful

    This appears to be a misunderstanding. No-one in Labour used the phrase ‘Milly Dowler moment’.

    Now the Daily Mail is running with:

    "Ed Miliband believes his row over 'dodgy' Tory donors avoiding tax is a 'Millie Dowler moment' where he can stand up for the public against the rich and powerful, his aides have revealed."

    Presumably all those Labour supporters who told us it was OK for Ed to smear Lord Fink by association will be happy that the Mail is doing the same to Ed, albeit in the Mail's case based on believing what a respected BBC reporter reported.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Summary of the day:
    Ed Miliband chose to fight publicly a Tory donor over alleged tax evasion in the middle of a big tax evasion scandal, and won!

    It might make an effect on the left (SNP, GRN wise), but it surely will make an impression in the media world who until now they have branded him a loser.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    A good day for Labour - a day nearer the election and no discussion of policy.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,716
    Speedy said:

    Summary of the day:
    Ed Miliband chose to fight publicly a Tory donor over alleged tax evasion in the middle of a big tax evasion scandal, and won!

    It might make an effect on the left (SNP, GRN wise), but it surely will make an impression in the media world who until now they have branded him a loser.

    Alleged tax avoidance!
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800
    kjohnw said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    kjohnw said:

    what I want to know is why arent the tories counterattacking Labour on this, goodness knows there is enough panes of glass in their glasshouse to break. Where is Cameron, Where is Osborne, wheres the conservatives attack dogs, where is the tories equivalent to John Reid and Peter Mandleson. I'm sure there's plenty of tax avoidance going on in the Labour camp. Remember Bernie Eccleston, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27144637 or how about Ed Milibands inheritance tax situation, why arent the tories exploiting their hypocrisy, maybe they want to lose

    Inheritance tax situation?
    "He and his brother, David, signed a “deed of variation” along with their mother, Marion, following the death of their father Ralph, an influential Marxist academic, in 1994.
    This gave them each a 20 per cent stake in the four-storey house in Edis Street, reducing the inheritance tax eventually payable on the estate."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/8039829/Red-Ed-Miliband-lives-in-1.6m-house-after-shrewd-property-moves.html
    I genuinely believe this is going to lose Ed the election, especially now with the Milly Dowler comment. He is a scumbag of the highest order and I for one cannot wait to see him get merrily stuffed.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,716
    TGOHF said:

    A good day for Labour - a day nearer the election and no discussion of policy.

    Quite.
  • BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    Speedy said:

    Summary of the day:
    Ed Miliband chose to fight publicly a Tory donor over alleged tax evasion in the middle of a big tax evasion scandal, and won!

    It might make an effect on the left (SNP, GRN wise), but it surely will make an impression in the media world who until now they have branded him a loser.

    And Ipsos Mori came out showing Labour's share remaining more than solid.

    The Tories are damaged.

    A good day all round for Ed.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Speedy said:

    Summary of the day:
    Ed Miliband chose to fight publicly a Tory donor over alleged tax evasion in the middle of a big tax evasion scandal, and won!

    Wrong.

    Apart from that, good post.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    So no one used the words Milly Downer and moment..I wonder why they came up then.. some sort of magic perhaps.. no one said the words but they seem to have been said..all smoke and mirrors and possible lies to me..
This discussion has been closed.

© Vanilla Keystone Theme 2025