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  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    welshowl said:

    Fink has not covered DC in glory as I'm sure he's probably being informed by Tory HQ but the sanctimony about tax avoidance from some quarters is amazing.

    Duty free, ISA's, Premium Bonds, putting money in a pension (what utter sociopathic rotters they are!) choosing a company car with lower CO2 emissions, giving the grand kids some gifts before you pop your clogs: all tax avoidance. So is buying a house at exactly £250,000 as opposed to £250,001 ( pre budget)

    Depending on where you feel like drawing the line is not smoking tax avoidance? Or drinking cider not beer as it's got lesser duty? Checked the window cleaner's tax return since you and everyone else who is sane pays him in cash?

    So yes just about everyone does it.

    Utter drivel !

    Anything which Parliament intended, right or wrong, is NOT tax avoidance. Using your tax allowance, using ISA, putting money in your own pension, using various allowances including husbands and wives maximising allowances , even using certain trusts which Parliament specifically created.

    Tax avoidance is making use of "constructions" which Parliament did not intend [ nobody intended until some Accountant came up with it ].
    I don't think that distinction is so clear cut.

    It is possible for a lot of people to reduce their tax bills hugely, by taking advantage of all sorts of pieces of legislation which Parliament intended to be taken advantage of.

    I'll give you some examples:-

    1. If you run a business from home, you can claim a proportion of all the expenses of running that home (eg mortgage, utilities, ) as allowable business expenses. If you purchase your car through that business, you can depreciate it each year, and claim repairs, road tax, etc. as business expenses.

    2. If you're a higher rate taxpayer with your own business, with a spouse who pays the basic rate, then employ that spouse and pay him/her a salary. That reduces the amount of your own income that's taxed at the higher rate.

    3. If you own a company, and have a house, borrow against your house to purchase premises for your company. Those premises will attract 100% business property relief for IHT purposes, and the net value of your home will be reduced for IHT purposes.

    If you do 1 are you liable for business rates on the proportion of the home you declare as for business use. Also surely the car is only an allowable expense when used for business purposes.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    PB = Pedantic Bastards.com
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    "Lord Fink said he “used the opportunity ... To set up some simple family trusts” while on a four year posting to Switzerland. He transferred some shares to his children and his wife. “

    “Really what I was trying to do was, not like a living will, but to allocate a very small shareholdings to each of my children so they could pay deposits on houses in London one day after we returned. There was nothing complex, and they weren’t aggressive tax planning

    “My family and I paid tax on all the dividends, both in Switzerland and the UK. They were done because my children were under 18 and I wanted them to have something to help them make their way in the wider world.”

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/everyone-avoids-tax-says-lord-fink-after-he-was-named-by-ed-miliband-in-commons-row-10041040.html

    My guess is that the average parent would look at that and think, 'fair enough'.

    Surely there must be more than that? That can't be the sum of it, can it?
  • Good evening, everyone.

    Mr. Dawning, Oborne is a bit like Hitchens - utterly bonkers, sometimes interesting and occasionally insightful.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    If negative inflation persists, Austerity should not only be forgotten, it should be reversed. Negative inflation increases real debt.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,041

    RobD said:

    OllyT said:

    Alistair said:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/364009/4382_Measuring_Tax_Gaps_2014_IW_v4B_accessible_20141014.pdf

    Tax avoidance is not the same as legitimate tax planning. Legitimate tax planning involves
    using tax reliefs for the purpose for which they were intended. For example, claiming
    tax relief on capital investment, saving in a tax-exempt ISA or saving for retirement by
    making contributions to a pension scheme are all legitimate forms of tax planning

    Very true but the PB Tories are desperately trying to equate having an ISA with squirrelling millions away in unnumbered Swiss bank accounts, nobody is really buying it but they have been banging the same drum all day

    LOL. What is an unnumbered Swiss bank account?

    A Swiss bank manager's nightmare?
    Well a numbered Swiss Bank account is one with a number but no name, so only the bank and the client know whose it is.

    I guess an unnumbered one must therefore be one without even a number, so nobody knows whose it is.

    Cunning.
    Not even the client. Tax avoidance at it's finest.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    surbiton said:

    If negative inflation persists, Austerity should not only be forgotten, it should be reversed. Negative inflation increases real debt.

    So does reversing austerity.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    taffys said:

    Tim Montgomerie on the shifting mood away from austerity

    Negotiating with the economic terrorists of Greece is a huge error. And the longer it goes on, the worse it will be

    The people of Greece have voted to move away from austerity. Fine. Here's your own currency, now get on with it.

    You will quickly see that for you,austerity hasn't ended.

    It has just begun.

    Exactly, though the Drachma is what Greece needs but the road between here and everything being on an evenish keel in a Drachma economy is horrible.

    Still I suspect Germans have been quietly sandbagging as best they can to avoid the whole Euro going south and so are probably in as good a position as they can be to pull the Greek plug out and watch the Retsina go round the u bend.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,916
    taffys Indeed, but he also mentions how the big anti Coalition swings in recent state elections in Australia and the rise of the SNP and Greens show the anti austerity mood is not just confined to Greece
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @chestnut
    The only ones who know what the full evidence is against any of them are various government departments across the world, and of course the institute of Journalists I can't remember the name of.
    The brown stuff will only properly fly "IF" wrong doing is obvious on the disks, and governments or tax staff didn't make full use of the information.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    Murdoch has an sharp axe to grind with Ed, I find it difficult to believe he will pass up an opportunity to make life difficult for him. To begin with get Hodge and Stemcor's arrangements into the spotlight.

    Murdoch is a busted flush in terms of having any political credibility in this country

    really ? so why do lefties spend so much time on him ?

    You will have to ask the"lefties" that question I'm afraid I can't answer for him. The Phone hacking scandal undoubtedly damaged his image with people that don't pay that much interest to politics. I seriously doubt that Murdoch ever sways anyone who doesn't already agree with him these days. The whole Milly Dowler episode disgusted a great many people.
    It's like the poster on here who seems to do nothing but cut and paste anti-Labour comments from all over the right wing media - it's pointless, it persuades nobody, I just skip the comments because they are 100% predictable. Same with Murdoch,everyone knows where he stands so you discount it. If he has a go at Miliband personally I doubt it will have much impact, much like the Mail's attack on his father.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    GIN1138 said:

    If, if, if Ed Miliband manages to claw himself over the finishing line and becomes Prime Minister, this sycophantic nonsense from Peter Oborne will be well worth re-visiting;

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9438172/ed-milibands-biggest-critics-dont-hate-him-for-how-hes-failed-they-hate-him-for-how-hes-succeeded/

    Reminds me of the weird Brown-love we saw from the like's of Oborne and Heffer in 2007.

    Remember, Oborne is consumed by a pathological hatred of Tony Blair and Alistair Campbell. Everything he writes must be seen in that context. Miliband has vaguely distanced himself from New Labour and was once an underling of Gordon Brown, Blair's sworn enemy. In Oborne's eyes, that alone is enough for canonization.
    Brilliant article by Oborne.
  • chestnut said:

    IPSOS-Mori poll unexciting.

    Tory lead, every age group from 35+, every socio-economic group except DE.
    Well, what else would you expect when the overall total is so close?

    It's not for nothing that the Tories fought for so long against giving the poor the vote.
  • Good evening, everyone.

    Mr. Dawning, Oborne is a bit like Hitchens - utterly bonkers, sometimes interesting and occasionally insightful.

    I used to quite like Hitchens but went off him when he became a megalomaniac: 'I've been telling you for years that Cameron was a liberal socialist amoral child-of-the-1960s decadent traitor, and you didn't believe me. Now I've been proved irrefutably correct, and you're all crushed and humiliated. Worship me.' (Or words to that effect.)
  • Mr. Dawning, slightly reminds me of an Asimov quote:
    People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do.

    Mr. Surbiton, the probable deflation could be fleeting, but you're right to highlight it as a very serious issue if it persists.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    the SNP and Greens show the anti austerity mood is not just confined to Greece

    Indeed. Which is why the Greeks need to be sacrificed NOW. Every day Tsipras struts his stuff the idiots who believe there is an alternative to paying your debts get bolder.

    Let's hope Germany is only going through the motions so they don't look too callous when Grexit occurs.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    I know we like to imagine questions we would like put to various politicians.
    Mine for the moment is about our tax collectors having only just received the go ahead from the French to use the information publicly

    Q. When did you actually request the ability to do so?
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    taffys said:

    the SNP and Greens show the anti austerity mood is not just confined to Greece

    Indeed. Which is why the Greeks need to be sacrificed NOW. Every day Tsipras struts his stuff the idiots who believe there is an alternative to paying your debts get bolder.

    Let's hope Germany is only going through the motions so they don't look too callous when Grexit occurs.

    Bang on the money. Deutschemarks? ;-)
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    Well, what else would you expect when the overall total is so close?

    It's not for nothing that the Tories fought for so long against giving the poor the vote.

    Will the young and less well off turn out?



  • sladeslade Posts: 2,080
    I have just watched Ch 4 News -which I normally find enlightening and fair. But tonight was a disaster. There was a dire interview with Spike Lee which was badly researched and grossly PC. Although Cathy Newman was a co-presenter there was no apology for her Mosquegate activities. Then to cap it all there was a piece from Michael Crick in Norwich which was mostly devoted to Labour ( even though they a have no MPs in the city) and made no mention of the Lib Dem MP for Norwich South ( although there was an interview with the Green candidate there).
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,916
    taffys Grexit would probably be the best bet for Greece in terms of enabling it to set its own economic direction again free from the euro. While voters accept the need to pay down their debts, they are clearly no longer as willing to do that by a slash and burn approach to public services for years to come and also believe the rich should pay more tax to help pay off the debt too
  • An update on the Youth vote... Possibly looking better for Labour among all young voters, but among students it's more of the same... https://twitter.com/NCPoliticsUK/status/565963448316862464
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @chestnut
    "Will the young and less well off turn out?"

    Only if Cameron has p*ssed them off.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    chestnut said:

    OllyT said:

    are desperately trying to equate having an ISA with squirrelling millions away in unnumbered Swiss bank accounts,

    So, what you really care about is the amount of money the person has, not the avoidance.

    The clue is 'millions'.
    Please don't tell me you think that having a government sponsored savings vehicle with interest that is not taxable is the same as what Panorama uncovered in HSBC last week?
    Even if you can't, then I hate to break it to you, but most of the electorate can.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,291

    chestnut said:

    IPSOS-Mori poll unexciting.

    Tory lead, every age group from 35+, every socio-economic group except DE.
    It's not for nothing that the Tories fought for so long against giving the poor the vote.
    I think the phrase is 'citation needed'
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    OllyT said:

    Murdoch has an sharp axe to grind with Ed, I find it difficult to believe he will pass up an opportunity to make life difficult for him. To begin with get Hodge and Stemcor's arrangements into the spotlight.

    Murdoch is a busted flush in terms of having any political credibility in this country

    really ? so why do lefties spend so much time on him ?

    You will have to ask the"lefties" that question I'm afraid I can't answer for him. The Phone hacking scandal undoubtedly damaged his image with people that don't pay that much interest to politics. I seriously doubt that Murdoch ever sways anyone who doesn't already agree with him these days. The whole Milly Dowler episode disgusted a great many people.
    It's like the poster on here who seems to do nothing but cut and paste anti-Labour comments from all over the right wing media - it's pointless, it persuades nobody, I just skip the comments because they are 100% predictable. Same with Murdoch,everyone knows where he stands so you discount it. If he has a go at Miliband personally I doubt it will have much impact, much like the Mail's attack on his father.
    Has the Mirror's phone hacking scandals affected anything then?
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/hacking-by-mirror-worse-than-at-murdoch-papers-9996698.html
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    OllyT said:

    Alistair said:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/364009/4382_Measuring_Tax_Gaps_2014_IW_v4B_accessible_20141014.pdf

    Tax avoidance is not the same as legitimate tax planning. Legitimate tax planning involves
    using tax reliefs for the purpose for which they were intended. For example, claiming
    tax relief on capital investment, saving in a tax-exempt ISA or saving for retirement by
    making contributions to a pension scheme are all legitimate forms of tax planning

    Very true but the PB Tories are desperately trying to equate having an ISA with squirrelling millions away in unnumbered Swiss bank accounts, nobody is really buying it but they have been banging the same drum all day

    LOL. What is an unnumbered Swiss bank account?

    A Swiss bank manager's nightmare?
    Well a numbered Swiss Bank account is one with a number but no name, so only the bank and the client know whose it is.

    I guess an unnumbered one must therefore be one without even a number, so nobody knows whose it is.

    Cunning.
    Not even the client. Tax avoidance at it's finest.
    Yes, I think it's the kind of device favored by the likes of Hotblack Desiato, legendary intergalactic rockstar.

    You will recall no doubt that he once spent a year dead for tax purposes.

  • slade said:

    I have just watched Ch 4 News -which I normally find enlightening and fair. But tonight was a disaster. There was a dire interview with Spike Lee which was badly researched and grossly PC. Although Cathy Newman was a co-presenter there was no apology for her Mosquegate activities. Then to cap it all there was a piece from Michael Crick in Norwich which was mostly devoted to Labour ( even though they a have no MPs in the city) and made no mention of the Lib Dem MP for Norwich South ( although there was an interview with the Green candidate there).

    However, Norwich South is highly likely to go Labour unfortunately. Lib Dem was an easy choice to remove Mr Potato head last time but hard to see who can beat Labour this time. Still 3 months to make up my mind.

  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    taffys said:

    the SNP and Greens show the anti austerity mood is not just confined to Greece

    Indeed. Which is why the Greeks need to be sacrificed NOW. Every day Tsipras struts his stuff the idiots who believe there is an alternative to paying your debts get bolder.

    Let's hope Germany is only going through the motions so they don't look too callous when Grexit occurs.

    Strange logic.

    It is attempts to maintain the myth that Greece can repay its debts which has caused a continued 6 years long problem which isn't going away. As Varoufakis neatly sums it up, you can't treat an insolvency problem as an liquidity problem.

    Real World examples show that if Greece had defaulted its debt in 2008 then it would, by now, be well on the way to double its pre-default GDP per capita.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,808

    Mr Miliband reacted to Lord Fink's comments by saying: "I think this is a defining moment in David Cameron's leadership of the Conservative Party because it is now revealed that he appointed a treasurer of the Conservative Party who says everyone engages in tax avoidance. I don't think that is the view of most people,

    http://m.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-31438865

    That would explain the empty duty free shops at Heathrow then, and the billions not invested in Isas.....

    Absurd hyperbole from Labour supporters
    Even the Independent despite its perjorative headline quotes
    'Lord Fink said his tax planning had been at the “vanilla” or “mild” end of the spectrum and he had rejected advice to take more “aggressive” action to cut his tax bill.
    “I chose the mildest end of the spectrum that I was advised on,” '

    Still I suppose the headline, ''Lord Fink not an aggressive tax avoider'' does not have the same cachet for Russian owned Labour supporting press.

    The Standard Labour supporting? We'll see won't we:

  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    The tax is not the important issue, it is the questionable cast of characters funding our political parties and buying influence. Deeply concerning and reinforces the need to bring in state funding.
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    surbiton said:

    GIN1138 said:

    If, if, if Ed Miliband manages to claw himself over the finishing line and becomes Prime Minister, this sycophantic nonsense from Peter Oborne will be well worth re-visiting;

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9438172/ed-milibands-biggest-critics-dont-hate-him-for-how-hes-failed-they-hate-him-for-how-hes-succeeded/

    Reminds me of the weird Brown-love we saw from the like's of Oborne and Heffer in 2007.

    Remember, Oborne is consumed by a pathological hatred of Tony Blair and Alistair Campbell. Everything he writes must be seen in that context. Miliband has vaguely distanced himself from New Labour and was once an underling of Gordon Brown, Blair's sworn enemy. In Oborne's eyes, that alone is enough for canonization.
    Brilliant article by Oborne.
    Agree, Oborne is one of the few worth reading.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    welshowl said:

    Fink has not covered DC in glory as I'm sure he's probably being informed by Tory HQ but the sanctimony about tax avoidance from some quarters is amazing.



    Depending on where you feel like drawing the line is not smoking tax avoidance? Or drinking cider not beer as it's got lesser duty? Checked the window cleaner's tax return since you and everyone else who is sane pays him in cash?

    So yes just about everyone does it.

    Utter drivel !

    Anything which Parliament intended, right or wrong, is NOT tax avoidance. Using your tax allowance, using ISA, putting money in your own pension, using various allowances including husbands and wives maximising allowances , even using certain trusts which Parliament specifically created.

    Tax avoidance is making use of "constructions" which Parliament did not intend [ nobody intended until some Accountant came up with it ].
    I don't think that distinction is so clear cut.

    It is possible for a lot of people to reduce their tax bills hugely, by taking advantage of all sorts of pieces of legislation which Parliament intended to be taken advantage of.

    I'll give you some examples:-

    1. If you run a business from home, you can claim a proportion of all the expenses of running that home (eg mortgage, utilities, ) as allowable business expenses. If you purchase your car through that business, you can depreciate it each year, and claim repairs, road tax, etc. as business expenses.

    2. If you're a higher rate taxpayer with your own business, with a spouse who pays the basic rate, then employ that spouse and pay him/her a salary. That reduces the amount of your own income that's taxed at the higher rate.

    3. If you own a company, and have a house, borrow against your house to purchase premises for your company. Those premises will attract 100% business property relief for IHT purposes, and the net value of your home will be reduced for IHT purposes.

    All three examples are not supportable but they are not Tax Avoidance. The first is "normal"and most self employed people do it [ BBC journalists ? ]. However, the Revenue can challenge the proportion. Personally, I believe it is immoral but not tax evasion. Speaking as an Accountant [ but not practising ], I should warn anyone not to bring mortgage interest into the fray. You could be chargeable to CGT as a proportion.which as Principle Private Residence it would not be.

    No. 3 is a form of tax avoidance which Parliament could stop. However, Parliament originally did not intend to do so. You could come up with many such examples. Draw your salary from a profitable company and work "free" or for low wages in a loss making company.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    slade said:

    I have just watched Ch 4 News -which I normally find enlightening and fair. But tonight was a disaster. There was a dire interview with Spike Lee which was badly researched and grossly PC. Although Cathy Newman was a co-presenter there was no apology for her Mosquegate activities. Then to cap it all there was a piece from Michael Crick in Norwich which was mostly devoted to Labour ( even though they a have no MPs in the city) and made no mention of the Lib Dem MP for Norwich South ( although there was an interview with the Green candidate there).

    However, Norwich South is highly likely to go Labour unfortunately. Lib Dem was an easy choice to remove Mr Potato head last time but hard to see who can beat Labour this time. Still 3 months to make up my mind.

    Indeed there needs to be a rethink amongst the broadcasters as to the consistent inclusion of a fringe party like the Liberals ahead of more popular parties such as the Greens, UKIP and SNP/PLaid.

    The format on This Week is becoming increasingly untenable where the curious choice of third guest is always the insufferable Miranda Green representing such a tiny niche of politics instead of simply rotating between UKIP, Greens and SNP/Plaid as the third guest
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,386
    So looking into The Rune's what do we think the last YouGov of the working week has in store?
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    surbiton said:

    welshowl said:

    Fink has not covered DC in glory as I'm sure he's probably being informed by Tory HQ but the sanctimony about tax avoidance from some quarters is amazing.

    Duty free, ISA's, Premium Bonds, putting money in a pension (what utter sociopathic rotters they are!) choosing a company car with lower CO2 emissions, giving the grand kids some gifts before you pop your clogs: all tax avoidance. So is buying a house at exactly £250,000 as opposed to £250,001 ( pre budget)

    Depending on where you feel like drawing the line is not smoking tax avoidance? Or drinking cider not beer as it's got lesser duty? Checked the window cleaner's tax return since you and everyone else who is sane pays him in cash?

    So yes just about everyone does it.

    Tax avoidance is making use of "constructions" which Parliament did not intend [ nobody intended until some Accountant came up with it ].
    No. Put 'aggressive' in front and that is the point. Family trusts are not aggressive tax avoidance.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    Dair said:

    taffys said:

    the SNP and Greens show the anti austerity mood is not just confined to Greece

    Indeed. Which is why the Greeks need to be sacrificed NOW. Every day Tsipras struts his stuff the idiots who believe there is an alternative to paying your debts get bolder.

    Let's hope Germany is only going through the motions so they don't look too callous when Grexit occurs.

    Strange logic.

    It is attempts to maintain the myth that Greece can repay its debts which has caused a continued 6 years long problem which isn't going away. As Varoufakis neatly sums it up, you can't treat an insolvency problem as an liquidity problem.

    Real World examples show that if Greece had defaulted its debt in 2008 then it would, by now, be well on the way to double its pre-default GDP per capita.
    I expect the German powers that be know it's all up for Greece in the Euro but have not wanted to pull the plug before now for fear of greater damage via contagion in Euroland. I doubt they have much wiggle room left with the voters of Düsseldorf or Mannheim about letting the Greeks off hence I suspect the game is nearly up. Of course nobody ever bothered asking the poor old Germans if they wanted the Euro let alone warn them that for it to work they'd probably have to share their taxes with Club Med, but hey ho that was that pesky democratic deficit that Euro types don't like to talk about.

    I visit Germany very regularly and I have never met a single one who wanted to ditch the Mark.
  • Dair said:

    slade said:

    I have just watched Ch 4 News -which I normally find enlightening and fair. But tonight was a disaster. There was a dire interview with Spike Lee which was badly researched and grossly PC. Although Cathy Newman was a co-presenter there was no apology for her Mosquegate activities. Then to cap it all there was a piece from Michael Crick in Norwich which was mostly devoted to Labour ( even though they a have no MPs in the city) and made no mention of the Lib Dem MP for Norwich South ( although there was an interview with the Green candidate there).

    However, Norwich South is highly likely to go Labour unfortunately. Lib Dem was an easy choice to remove Mr Potato head last time but hard to see who can beat Labour this time. Still 3 months to make up my mind.

    Indeed there needs to be a rethink amongst the broadcasters as to the consistent inclusion of a fringe party like the Liberals ahead of more popular parties such as the Greens, UKIP and SNP/PLaid.

    The format on This Week is becoming increasingly untenable where the curious choice of third guest is always the insufferable Miranda Green representing such a tiny niche of politics instead of simply rotating between UKIP, Greens and SNP/Plaid as the third guest
    Indeed, and having a current Labour MP on as opposed to a former Tory one isn't going to be tenable in the run-up to the election either.
  • New Thread
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    Just read the Standard's coverage on the way home. It is simply embarrassing for Fink

    Taking the pi$$ with your log in again?
This discussion has been closed.