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I bring bad news for people betting on Jenrick replacing Badenoch – politicalbetting.com

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  • TazTaz Posts: 23,920
    Hey @Anabobazina

    It’s JENRICK
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 125,651
    IanB2 said:

    So TSE is moving smart money onto Cleverley as next leader?

    Already have, but I have another tip that I will unveil in the next few days, I had written it before the defection so need to do some re-editing.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,327

    Nigelb said:

    Amol Rajan leaving Today to pursue his dream of becoming Del Boy.
    https://x.com/amolrajan/status/2011762119147229443

    Can't say I am overwhelmed with grief.
    Marvellous news.
  • TazTaz Posts: 23,920

    IanB2 said:

    So TSE is moving smart money onto Cleverley as next leader?

    Already have, but I have another tip that I will unveil in the next few days, I had written it before the defection so need to do some re-editing.
    Just clocked your new Avatar 😂😂
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,229
    So who follows Jenrick out? He must have expected a number to follow him.

    I bet Tice is less than delighted...
  • DumbosaurusDumbosaurus Posts: 939

    Strange story this Jenrick thing. Fair play to the leader of the opposition for pulling the trigger. But, I always got the sense that Jenrick wants to be a leader, preferably of the Tories but maybe he doesn’t care. In Reform he would still be second prick - and arguably to someone with a thinner skin.

    So, as soon as I read “plotting” in the BBC update I assumed he was getting the numbers for a swing at Badenoch not to join the teal mob.

    It would be wonderful if it is a hilarious bit of 4D chess. He wasn’t planning on defecting but Badenoch (or someone in her team) has cooked up the story / letter to sully any future chance of a shot at the leadership.

    This is why the smartest bet you can do at the moment is back him at 50 for next PM. There's none there but they are trading
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,229
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    I suspected Trump's fondness for fellow autocrats would prevail.

    Trump echoes one of the main Iran talking points here. Extraordinary.

    Trump: “They said people were shooting at them with guns and they were shooting back. And you know, it’s one of those things.”

    https://x.com/laurnorman/status/2011539488095252567

    As opposed to shooting at unarmed mothers in the face who are merely trying to leave the scene?
    Mike Johnson claims that the ICE officer who shot and killed Renee Nicole Good was "very patient"
    https://x.com/factpostnews/status/2011104541626769558
    She was dead too soon to be a patient....
  • Jim_the_LurkerJim_the_Lurker Posts: 232

    Strange story this Jenrick thing. Fair play to the leader of the opposition for pulling the trigger. But, I always got the sense that Jenrick wants to be a leader, preferably of the Tories but maybe he doesn’t care. In Reform he would still be second prick - and arguably to someone with a thinner skin.

    So, as soon as I read “plotting” in the BBC update I assumed he was getting the numbers for a swing at Badenoch not to join the teal mob.

    It would be wonderful if it is a hilarious bit of 4D chess. He wasn’t planning on defecting but Badenoch (or someone in her team) has cooked up the story / letter to sully any future chance of a shot at the leadership.

    Wonderful typo near the end of your first para. At least, I assume it's a typo.
    Second prick, indeed.
    No typo - and I toned the language down from my initial draft. PB is a family website. I certainly do not think we are blessed in terms of our political leaders at present (on both sides of the aisle).
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,229
    However many MPs the Tories end upwith this, the Conservative Party is way more attractive with Jenrick now outside the tent.

    I wonder if Kemi will call for anyone else who wants to leave to do so. Draw a line.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,846
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    I suspected Trump's fondness for fellow autocrats would prevail.

    Trump echoes one of the main Iran talking points here. Extraordinary.

    Trump: “They said people were shooting at them with guns and they were shooting back. And you know, it’s one of those things.”

    https://x.com/laurnorman/status/2011539488095252567

    See also.

    Trump says he and Delcy Rodriguez "had a great conversation today.

    "She's a terrific person. She's somebody that we've worked with very well. Marco Rubio's dealing with her. I dealt with her this morning. We had a long call...We discussed a lot of things. And I think we're getting along very well with Venezuela."

    https://x.com/VeraMBergen/status/2011548936062763480

    As la Rodriguez seems to be something of a Cuban stooge, I doubt Rubio is particularly happy about this.

    Also, FFS, this.

    Exclusive: Trump says Zelenskiy, not Putin, is holding up a Ukraine peace deal
    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/trump-says-zelenskiy-not-putin-is-holding-up-ukraine-peace-deal-2026-01-15/
    .."I think he's ready to make a deal," Trump said of the Russian president. "I think Ukraine is less ready to make a deal."
    Asked why U.S.-led negotiations had not yet resolved Europe's largest land conflict since World War Two, Trump responded: "Zelenskiy."..
    One possible way this might go is that Zelensky agrees to a deal that concedes the Donbas, but only subject to a referendum, and then the whole thing gets snarled up in disputes over sequencing of implementation. This is apparently what happened with the Minsk II agreement.

    This could lead to a frozen frontline, a small Anglo-French force in Ukraine, a referendum result in Ukrainian-held Donbas that rejects Ukrainian retreat and the US Congress voting to endorse security guarantees for Ukraine - so I wouldn't expect Russia to agree to it.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 125,651
    Taz said:

    IanB2 said:

    So TSE is moving smart money onto Cleverley as next leader?

    Already have, but I have another tip that I will unveil in the next few days, I had written it before the defection so need to do some re-editing.
    Just clocked your new Avatar 😂😂
    Wicked child!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 125,651
    If anyone mentions this thread from last month where I said Robert Jenrick wouldn’t defect then I will have to deploy the Farage photo.

    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2025/12/04/the-worm-that-turned/
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,141

    I tend to think that the Tory tent probably needs to be as broad as possible if they are going to both see off the challenge from Reform on their right, and make inroads on regaining voters towards the centre. It's always a difficult balancing act trying to do both at the same time, but I'm not convinced that wholesale losing its right-wing to Reform is going to help the Tories remain the leading party of the British Right.

    Also, dismissing Jenrick as acting out of "personal ambition" is not really the blow against his credibility that Badenoch thinks it is. Everyone thinks that politicians are shameless careerists, what's new? What's new is that the Tory party is no longer the vehicle for a right-wing politician with ambition. Reform is. That's not a great look for the Tories, really. They risk becoming the party for right-wingers who are unwilling to bend the knee to Farage, and I'm not convinced that constitutes a majority on the right-wing, much as I might personally admire those right-wingers with more principle than ambition.

    I agree with your first paragraph. I think it’s good for both the Tories and Labour to be broad tent parties in a 2-party system.

    But we no longer have a 2-party system. Where once FPTP created sufficient pressure to ensure that, something has happened — social media? — and the two party system has broken. The Conservative Party (and ditto Labour) need a strategy for a multi-party world, or a sure fire way to get back to a 2-party world.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,716
    Wow! Got to say well played Kemi. We of course await Jenrick's response.

    Tactically it's a win for Kemi. Strategically it still has to be seen as a win for Farage.

    She will be tempted to replace Jenrick with a wet. But I think probably Lam is the best suggestion. She will be unlikely to defect, as she wants the top job.

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,799
    For better or worse Kemi Badenoch has shown leadership and I am so relieved Jenrick is not in the party anymore

    Sky were drawing comparisons with Starmer dumping Corbyn which strengthened Starmer and see this as similar

    Apparently a senior labour mp has complimented Kemi on her decisive action
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,141
    IanB2 said:

    Strange story this Jenrick thing. Fair play to the leader of the opposition for pulling the trigger. But, I always got the sense that Jenrick wants to be a leader, preferably of the Tories but maybe he doesn’t care. In Reform he would still be second prick - and arguably to someone with a thinner skin.

    So, as soon as I read “plotting” in the BBC update I assumed he was getting the numbers for a swing at Badenoch not to join the teal mob.

    It would be wonderful if it is a hilarious bit of 4D chess. He wasn’t planning on defecting but Badenoch (or someone in her team) has cooked up the story / letter to sully any future chance of a shot at the leadership.

    It hasn't yet been clarified whether the discovered speech was to resign from the party, to join Reform, or to resign from the shadow cabinet, to take on Kemi. We're all assuming the former, but...
    The Tories have explicitly said it was to defect.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,579
    Andy_JS said:

    Wonder if Jenrick has war-gamed this scenario? Careless if not.

    Yes he made detailed scenario by scenario plans laying out each step, and then left them on a photocopier.
  • DoctorGDoctorG Posts: 405
    Nigelb said:

    Amol Rajan leaving Today to pursue his dream of becoming Del Boy.
    https://x.com/amolrajan/status/2011762119147229443

    Still going to hosting Uni Challenge. Is he still BBC technology editor or something similar?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,448

    Wow! Got to say well played Kemi. We of course await Jenrick's response.

    Tactically it's a win for Kemi. Strategically it still has to be seen as a win for Farage.

    She will be tempted to replace Jenrick with a wet. But I think probably Lam is the best suggestion. She will be unlikely to defect, as she wants the top job.

    Err, Jenrick wanted the top job too and defected. No point promoting another potential defector.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,895
    edited 1:17PM

    However many MPs the Tories end upwith this, the Conservative Party is way more attractive with Jenrick now outside the tent.

    I wonder if Kemi will call for anyone else who wants to leave to do so. Draw a line.

    According to Mad Nad on R4 now, there are very few Tory MPs left that “Nigel” would allow in, as she thinks most of them are really Liberal Democrats…..
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,231

    Andy_JS said:

    Wonder if Jenrick has war-gamed this scenario? Careless if not.

    Yes he made detailed scenario by scenario plans laying out each step, and then left them on a photocopier.
    The other thing is the memory of Two Brexit Columns Boris...
    You would have to be a shameless toad to say "I wrote the speech as an experiment to see how it felt, and whether I really wanted to defect..."

    But Energetic Bob is a shameless toad.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,141
    Jenrick out also means we’re one step closer to the LibDems being the official opposition…
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,788
    Starmer is what is known as a very Lucky General.

    How many birds is it possible to kill with one stone?

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,895

    I tend to think that the Tory tent probably needs to be as broad as possible if they are going to both see off the challenge from Reform on their right, and make inroads on regaining voters towards the centre. It's always a difficult balancing act trying to do both at the same time, but I'm not convinced that wholesale losing its right-wing to Reform is going to help the Tories remain the leading party of the British Right.

    Also, dismissing Jenrick as acting out of "personal ambition" is not really the blow against his credibility that Badenoch thinks it is. Everyone thinks that politicians are shameless careerists, what's new? What's new is that the Tory party is no longer the vehicle for a right-wing politician with ambition. Reform is. That's not a great look for the Tories, really. They risk becoming the party for right-wingers who are unwilling to bend the knee to Farage, and I'm not convinced that constitutes a majority on the right-wing, much as I might personally admire those right-wingers with more principle than ambition.

    I agree with your first paragraph. I think it’s good for both the Tories and Labour to be broad tent parties in a 2-party system.

    But we no longer have a 2-party system. Where once FPTP created sufficient pressure to ensure that, something has happened — social media? — and the two party system has broken. The Conservative Party (and ditto Labour) need a strategy for a multi-party world, or a sure fire way to get back to a 2-party world.
    Per Behr in the Guardian, both Tory and Labour are nowadays seen as alternative cheeks of a consensus that has failed to deliver, since the financial crisis. Leaving those voters who want radical change towards a so-called progressive future to flock to the Greens, those voters who want radical change back to a regressive past to flock to Reform, and those voters who want change so that things are run properly without either the progressive future or the regressive past to vote LibDem.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,229
    IanB2 said:

    However many MPs the Tories end upwith this, the Conservative Party is way more attractive with Jenrick now outside the tent.

    I wonder if Kemi will call for anyone else who wants to leave to do so. Draw a line.

    According to Mad Nad on R4 now, there are very few Tory MPs left that “Nigel” would allow in, as she thinks most of them are really Liberal Democrats…..
    They aren't that bad.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,943

    Taz said:

    IanB2 said:

    So TSE is moving smart money onto Cleverley as next leader?

    Already have, but I have another tip that I will unveil in the next few days, I had written it before the defection so need to do some re-editing.
    Just clocked your new Avatar 😂😂
    Wicked child!
    Is your thingy shaped like a turnip?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 41,589
    Not even his handlers can manage him now...

    @alaynatreene

    Trump is threatening to invoke the Insurrection Act in Minnesota as protestors continue to clash with ICE agents in Minneapolis

    In my conversations with Trump officials, they have so far been hesitant to go there — not only because of the legal complications, but perhaps more so, because of the political ones.

    https://x.com/alaynatreene/status/2011791570253541695?s=20
  • DoctorGDoctorG Posts: 405
    Current betfair next tory leader odds

    Laura trott and Claire coutinho both 4.1
    Cleverly 6.6
    Katie Lam 7.2
    Jeremy Hunt 20

    No one else under 10

    Of those, both Laura Trott and Coutinho have the safest seats. Kemi Badenoch's own seat looks safer to a Reform surge than some other Tories in the south east
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 24,204
    Jenrick Isn't inside the tent pissing out.

    He isn't outside the tent pissing in.

    He's pissing his pants.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 24,204
    IanB2 said:

    However many MPs the Tories end upwith this, the Conservative Party is way more attractive with Jenrick now outside the tent.

    I wonder if Kemi will call for anyone else who wants to leave to do so. Draw a line.

    According to Mad Nad on R4 now, there are very few Tory MPs left that “Nigel” would allow in, as she thinks most of them are really Liberal Democrats…..
    Is that Mad Nad #1 or Mad Nad #2 ?
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 7,323
    Well done Kemi! If you can move your party away from the Faragist right, your party will be more widely electable. You may even recover enough to win elections again in the future. Bad news for the Lib Dems, though if you do it.
  • DoctorGDoctorG Posts: 405
    Is there any chance Jenrick goes and takes a few Tory MPs/Councillors/defectors with him, or is his fox completely shot?

    This will surely put the skids on some wavering Tory MPs thinking about defecting to Reform
  • DoctorGDoctorG Posts: 405
    edited 1:36PM
    Now time to reveal the big political news of today ...

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz7y1vq2qq0o

    Lord Offord is the new Reform UK leader in Scotland

    Farage was at the meeting, held in Fife
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 15,186

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    I suspected Trump's fondness for fellow autocrats would prevail.

    Trump echoes one of the main Iran talking points here. Extraordinary.

    Trump: “They said people were shooting at them with guns and they were shooting back. And you know, it’s one of those things.”

    https://x.com/laurnorman/status/2011539488095252567

    As opposed to shooting at unarmed mothers in the face who are merely trying to leave the scene?
    Mike Johnson claims that the ICE officer who shot and killed Renee Nicole Good was "very patient"
    https://x.com/factpostnews/status/2011104541626769558
    She was dead too soon to be a patient....
    What's his idea of an impatient ICE officer?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 41,589
    Jenrick on Farage:

    "I don't think Nigel is the bloke you want to have running your kids' schools or running your local hospital or... trust your savings, your pension, your small business to." (Sept 2025)

    "I don't think he's a serious politician. I don't think he's got the answers." (Oct 2024)
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,229

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    I suspected Trump's fondness for fellow autocrats would prevail.

    Trump echoes one of the main Iran talking points here. Extraordinary.

    Trump: “They said people were shooting at them with guns and they were shooting back. And you know, it’s one of those things.”

    https://x.com/laurnorman/status/2011539488095252567

    As opposed to shooting at unarmed mothers in the face who are merely trying to leave the scene?
    Mike Johnson claims that the ICE officer who shot and killed Renee Nicole Good was "very patient"
    https://x.com/factpostnews/status/2011104541626769558
    She was dead too soon to be a patient....
    What's his idea of an impatient ICE officer?
    A faster draw than Billy the Kid?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,947
    DoctorG said:

    Now time to reveal the big political news of today ...

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz7y1vq2qq0o

    Lord Offord is the new Reform UK leader in Scotland

    Farage was at the meeting, held in Fife

    The “anti establishment” party.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 41,589
    @travis_view

    Hey boss? I’m too fucked up for work. Yeah, from the car thing. Here’s what’s crazy: I look fine. No bleeding, bruising, or swelling visible. But inside it’s a mess. The car happened to hit me at an angle that makes the injury only detectable by government officials. Bad luck.

    https://x.com/travis_view/status/2011778847125971067?s=20
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,947
    Can Kemi get rid of Chris Philp and Priti Patel too?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,846
    24 ex-Tory MPs now in Reform, apparently. How long until the Tories sticking with the Conservative Party are the minority?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,229
    Roger said:

    Starmer is what is known as a very Lucky General.

    How many birds is it possible to kill with one stone?

    Lucky? If Starmer had a catapult, he'd take his eye out....
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,819
    At least one party has offered Jenrick a home https://www.facebook.com/share/1DeS7QUMnB/
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,846

    I tend to think that the Tory tent probably needs to be as broad as possible if they are going to both see off the challenge from Reform on their right, and make inroads on regaining voters towards the centre. It's always a difficult balancing act trying to do both at the same time, but I'm not convinced that wholesale losing its right-wing to Reform is going to help the Tories remain the leading party of the British Right.

    Also, dismissing Jenrick as acting out of "personal ambition" is not really the blow against his credibility that Badenoch thinks it is. Everyone thinks that politicians are shameless careerists, what's new? What's new is that the Tory party is no longer the vehicle for a right-wing politician with ambition. Reform is. That's not a great look for the Tories, really. They risk becoming the party for right-wingers who are unwilling to bend the knee to Farage, and I'm not convinced that constitutes a majority on the right-wing, much as I might personally admire those right-wingers with more principle than ambition.

    I agree with your first paragraph. I think it’s good for both the Tories and Labour to be broad tent parties in a 2-party system.

    But we no longer have a 2-party system. Where once FPTP created sufficient pressure to ensure that, something has happened — social media? — and the two party system has broken. The Conservative Party (and ditto Labour) need a strategy for a multi-party world, or a sure fire way to get back to a 2-party world.
    British politics broke into pieces before, and a duopoly was re-established. I wouldn't rule it out, though the parties that down that duopoly may be different.

    This is why I think the current failure of the Lib Dems to break out of their niche is so consequential. There's a chance for them to be one of the parties of a future duopoly, but they seem blind to the opportunity.

    What will tend to recreate a duopoly is the pain of repeated defeat. FPTP will give someone victory, and the other side will then conclude that they can compromise a bit more to get the government out.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 9,309
    edited 1:50PM
    Apparently the rumours are all wrong. Jenrick is in fact plotting to take up a new role as a ticket inspector on London Underground, where he can make a real difference.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,895

    I tend to think that the Tory tent probably needs to be as broad as possible if they are going to both see off the challenge from Reform on their right, and make inroads on regaining voters towards the centre. It's always a difficult balancing act trying to do both at the same time, but I'm not convinced that wholesale losing its right-wing to Reform is going to help the Tories remain the leading party of the British Right.

    Also, dismissing Jenrick as acting out of "personal ambition" is not really the blow against his credibility that Badenoch thinks it is. Everyone thinks that politicians are shameless careerists, what's new? What's new is that the Tory party is no longer the vehicle for a right-wing politician with ambition. Reform is. That's not a great look for the Tories, really. They risk becoming the party for right-wingers who are unwilling to bend the knee to Farage, and I'm not convinced that constitutes a majority on the right-wing, much as I might personally admire those right-wingers with more principle than ambition.

    I agree with your first paragraph. I think it’s good for both the Tories and Labour to be broad tent parties in a 2-party system.

    But we no longer have a 2-party system. Where once FPTP created sufficient pressure to ensure that, something has happened — social media? — and the two party system has broken. The Conservative Party (and ditto Labour) need a strategy for a multi-party world, or a sure fire way to get back to a 2-party world.
    British politics broke into pieces before, and a duopoly was re-established. I wouldn't rule it out, though the parties that down that duopoly may be different.

    This is why I think the current failure of the Lib Dems to break out of their niche is so consequential. There's a chance for them to be one of the parties of a future duopoly, but they seem blind to the opportunity.

    What will tend to recreate a duopoly is the pain of repeated defeat. FPTP will give someone victory, and the other side will then conclude that they can compromise a bit more to get the government out.
    Becoming the party of the settled Home Counties is a break out for the LibDems - one the party would have given a lot to achieve during earlier decades. The question is whether it is secure - the modelling done by that election maps website, noting that both its young author and its methodology are unknown - suggests most of the current LibDem seats are astoundingly safe. Since Johnson and Brexit the Tories have effectively been taken over by their version of the Corbynites, and it isn’t obvious that losing a bunch of them to Reform is going to change the balance of views in the membership that remains, which is good news for the LibDems, as is the shift from voting by class to voting by education, with the Tories still chasing the pensioner vote and on the wrong side of most cultural issues viewed from the perspective of educated working age folk.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,947
    edited 1:57PM

    I tend to think that the Tory tent probably needs to be as broad as possible if they are going to both see off the challenge from Reform on their right, and make inroads on regaining voters towards the centre. It's always a difficult balancing act trying to do both at the same time, but I'm not convinced that wholesale losing its right-wing to Reform is going to help the Tories remain the leading party of the British Right.

    Also, dismissing Jenrick as acting out of "personal ambition" is not really the blow against his credibility that Badenoch thinks it is. Everyone thinks that politicians are shameless careerists, what's new? What's new is that the Tory party is no longer the vehicle for a right-wing politician with ambition. Reform is. That's not a great look for the Tories, really. They risk becoming the party for right-wingers who are unwilling to bend the knee to Farage, and I'm not convinced that constitutes a majority on the right-wing, much as I might personally admire those right-wingers with more principle than ambition.

    I agree with your first paragraph. I think it’s good for both the Tories and Labour to be broad tent parties in a 2-party system.

    But we no longer have a 2-party system. Where once FPTP created sufficient pressure to ensure that, something has happened — social media? — and the two party system has broken. The Conservative Party (and ditto Labour) need a strategy for a multi-party world, or a sure fire way to get back to a 2-party world.
    British politics broke into pieces before, and a duopoly was re-established. I wouldn't rule it out, though the parties that down that duopoly may be different.

    This is why I think the current failure of the Lib Dems to break out of their niche is so consequential. There's a chance for them to be one of the parties of a future duopoly, but they seem blind to the opportunity.

    What will tend to recreate a duopoly is the pain of repeated defeat. FPTP will give someone victory, and the other side will then conclude that they can compromise a bit more to get the government out.
    For the LDs to seize that opportunity means breaking out of their “successful” model, one that works inside their comforting bubble.

    It’s the innovator’s dilemma.

    For a start, they’d need a coherent and compelling economic offer, probably something like the “Abundance” agenda essayed here in the U.S.

    But that would mean pissing off some, probably noisy, current supporters.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,141
    IanB2 said:

    I tend to think that the Tory tent probably needs to be as broad as possible if they are going to both see off the challenge from Reform on their right, and make inroads on regaining voters towards the centre. It's always a difficult balancing act trying to do both at the same time, but I'm not convinced that wholesale losing its right-wing to Reform is going to help the Tories remain the leading party of the British Right.

    Also, dismissing Jenrick as acting out of "personal ambition" is not really the blow against his credibility that Badenoch thinks it is. Everyone thinks that politicians are shameless careerists, what's new? What's new is that the Tory party is no longer the vehicle for a right-wing politician with ambition. Reform is. That's not a great look for the Tories, really. They risk becoming the party for right-wingers who are unwilling to bend the knee to Farage, and I'm not convinced that constitutes a majority on the right-wing, much as I might personally admire those right-wingers with more principle than ambition.

    I agree with your first paragraph. I think it’s good for both the Tories and Labour to be broad tent parties in a 2-party system.

    But we no longer have a 2-party system. Where once FPTP created sufficient pressure to ensure that, something has happened — social media? — and the two party system has broken. The Conservative Party (and ditto Labour) need a strategy for a multi-party world, or a sure fire way to get back to a 2-party world.
    Per Behr in the Guardian, both Tory and Labour are nowadays seen as alternative cheeks of a consensus that has failed to deliver, since the financial crisis. Leaving those voters who want radical change towards a so-called progressive future to flock to the Greens, those voters who want radical change back to a regressive past to flock to Reform, and those voters who want change so that things are run properly without either the progressive future or the regressive past to vote LibDem.
    If that is the case, that is a soluble problem. As Blair did with New Labour and Cameron did with his reinvention of the Tories, established parties can present themselves as offering change. It's harder for Starmer as he's already in no. 10, but the Tories should have the possibility of re-invention.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,811
    edited 1:56PM
    What up all!
    Flying visit on an hilarious day.
    Zahawi Bounce on display with FoN, lolololol

    Find Out Now voting intention:
    🟦 Reform UK: 28% (-4)
    🔵 Conservatives: 19% (+1)
    🟢 Greens: 18% (+1)
    🔴 Labour: 15% (-)
    🟠 Lib Dems: 12% (-)

    Changes from 7th January
    [Find Out Now, 14th January, N=2,823]
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 27,305

    I'm wondering with Farage's denial that Jenrick was being unveiled today, whether there were a series of defections planned.

    So Zahawi first as prominent ex-MP
    Then today a lower profile current MP
    Then Jenrick tomorrow

    I guess Jenrick will be pushed back and unveiled in a month or so.

    Or alternatively, and I know this is a shocking suggestion so I am nervous of even raising it, Farage is lying?
    Heaven forfend!
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,811
    Braverman must be off any moment
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,947
    I’m not a Kemi fan.
    Too green, not smart enough, too lazy.
    She achieved nothing at all in government.

    But she’s done very well here.
    This won’t impact polls, but it’s one of those things that longer term help prop up Tory claims to credibility, while undermining Reform’s.

    @DavidL made some insightful comments however that Jenrick’s ability to generate political weather will be missed.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,846

    I tend to think that the Tory tent probably needs to be as broad as possible if they are going to both see off the challenge from Reform on their right, and make inroads on regaining voters towards the centre. It's always a difficult balancing act trying to do both at the same time, but I'm not convinced that wholesale losing its right-wing to Reform is going to help the Tories remain the leading party of the British Right.

    Also, dismissing Jenrick as acting out of "personal ambition" is not really the blow against his credibility that Badenoch thinks it is. Everyone thinks that politicians are shameless careerists, what's new? What's new is that the Tory party is no longer the vehicle for a right-wing politician with ambition. Reform is. That's not a great look for the Tories, really. They risk becoming the party for right-wingers who are unwilling to bend the knee to Farage, and I'm not convinced that constitutes a majority on the right-wing, much as I might personally admire those right-wingers with more principle than ambition.

    I agree with your first paragraph. I think it’s good for both the Tories and Labour to be broad tent parties in a 2-party system.

    But we no longer have a 2-party system. Where once FPTP created sufficient pressure to ensure that, something has happened — social media? — and the two party system has broken. The Conservative Party (and ditto Labour) need a strategy for a multi-party world, or a sure fire way to get back to a 2-party world.
    British politics broke into pieces before, and a duopoly was re-established. I wouldn't rule it out, though the parties that down that duopoly may be different.

    This is why I think the current failure of the Lib Dems to break out of their niche is so consequential. There's a chance for them to be one of the parties of a future duopoly, but they seem blind to the opportunity.

    What will tend to recreate a duopoly is the pain of repeated defeat. FPTP will give someone victory, and the other side will then conclude that they can compromise a bit more to get the government out.
    For the LDs to seize that opportunity means breaking out of their “successful” model, one that works inside their comforting model.

    It’s the innovator’s dilemma.

    For a start, they’d need a coherent and compelling economic offer, probably something like the “Abundance” agenda essayed here in the U.S.

    But that would mean pissing off some, probably noisy, current supporters.
    One of the reasons that Britain is in a hole is that the country has had decades of politicians who prioritise the short-term over the long-term. If the Lib Dems are doing the same for the prospects of future success for their own party then it's probably for the good of the country that they remain in their niche.

    Which is a shame, because there aren't too many promising options for political parties who might improve things.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,306

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    I suspected Trump's fondness for fellow autocrats would prevail.

    Trump echoes one of the main Iran talking points here. Extraordinary.

    Trump: “They said people were shooting at them with guns and they were shooting back. And you know, it’s one of those things.”

    https://x.com/laurnorman/status/2011539488095252567

    See also.

    Trump says he and Delcy Rodriguez "had a great conversation today.

    "She's a terrific person. She's somebody that we've worked with very well. Marco Rubio's dealing with her. I dealt with her this morning. We had a long call...We discussed a lot of things. And I think we're getting along very well with Venezuela."

    https://x.com/VeraMBergen/status/2011548936062763480

    As la Rodriguez seems to be something of a Cuban stooge, I doubt Rubio is particularly happy about this.

    Also, FFS, this.

    Exclusive: Trump says Zelenskiy, not Putin, is holding up a Ukraine peace deal
    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/trump-says-zelenskiy-not-putin-is-holding-up-ukraine-peace-deal-2026-01-15/
    .."I think he's ready to make a deal," Trump said of the Russian president. "I think Ukraine is less ready to make a deal."
    Asked why U.S.-led negotiations had not yet resolved Europe's largest land conflict since World War Two, Trump responded: "Zelenskiy."..
    One possible way this might go is that Zelensky agrees to a deal that concedes the Donbas, but only subject to a referendum, and then the whole thing gets snarled up in disputes over sequencing of implementation. This is apparently what happened with the Minsk II agreement.

    This could lead to a frozen frontline, a small Anglo-French force in Ukraine, a referendum result in Ukrainian-held Donbas that rejects Ukrainian retreat and the US Congress voting to endorse security guarantees for Ukraine - so I wouldn't expect Russia to agree to it.
    No of that happens without a ceasefire, which Putin has refused.
    Trump, of course, has backed his stance ("it would be hard to start fighting again").

    Hard to tell whether Trump is actually controlled in some way from Moscow, or whether he just really, really likes murderous autocrats.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,947
    edited 1:59PM
    I see the government is planning to ban non-alcoholic beer from the under 18s, on the grounds of no evidence whatsoever.

    When did Britain stop being a country of instinctive liberalism (as the US, despite being totally fucked, usually still is)?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,930

    What up all!
    Flying visit on an hilarious day.
    Zahawi Bounce on display with FoN, lolololol

    Find Out Now voting intention:
    🟦 Reform UK: 28% (-4)
    🔵 Conservatives: 19% (+1)
    🟢 Greens: 18% (+1)
    🔴 Labour: 15% (-)
    🟠 Lib Dems: 12% (-)

    Changes from 7th January
    [Find Out Now, 14th January, N=2,823]

    I’ve just installed a Labour/Lib Dem Crossover Klaxon.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 27,305

    What up all!
    Flying visit on an hilarious day.
    Zahawi Bounce on display with FoN, lolololol

    Find Out Now voting intention:
    🟦 Reform UK: 28% (-4)
    🔵 Conservatives: 19% (+1)
    🟢 Greens: 18% (+1)
    🔴 Labour: 15% (-)
    🟠 Lib Dems: 12% (-)

    Changes from 7th January
    [Find Out Now, 14th January, N=2,823]

    Labour fourth. Lib Dems fifth. Stars alive, such days...
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,811

    I’m not a Kemi fan.
    Too green, not smart enough, too lazy.
    She achieved nothing at all in government.

    But she’s done very well here.
    This won’t impact polls, but it’s one of those things that longer term help prop up Tory claims to credibility, while undermining Reform’s.

    @DavidL made some insightful comments however that Jenrick’s ability to generate political weather will be missed.

    Shes completely torpedoed Bobbins career too, he has zero pull with Nigel now especially after the Zahawi backlash from Reformers.
    'Team Jenrick' already briefing many of them arent defecting
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,947
    Very excited by the LD defence in Gosport tonight @Stuartinromford!
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,811
    viewcode said:

    What up all!
    Flying visit on an hilarious day.
    Zahawi Bounce on display with FoN, lolololol

    Find Out Now voting intention:
    🟦 Reform UK: 28% (-4)
    🔵 Conservatives: 19% (+1)
    🟢 Greens: 18% (+1)
    🔴 Labour: 15% (-)
    🟠 Lib Dems: 12% (-)

    Changes from 7th January
    [Find Out Now, 14th January, N=2,823]

    Labour fourth. Lib Dems fifth. Stars alive, such days...
    Lowest FoN Reform vote share since April (first under 30 since the locals) - if a statistical blip and not 'Zahawi' then timing very unfortunate!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,930

    I see the government is planning to ban non-alcoholic beer from the under 18s, on the grounds of no evidence whatsoever.

    When did Britain stop being a country of instinctive liberalism (as the US, despite being totally fucked, usually still is)?

    The Labour Party has never been liberal, in that sense.

    The core belief is that national, centralised government can Make Things Better, by pulling levers in a control room.

    So anything that stops them doing that is bad.

    Which is the dividing line, mainly, between that culture and the Liberal Democrats.

    See the incredulity among the Labour negotiators, during the talks about forming the Coaltion. They couldn’t understand why the Lib Dem wouldn’t sign up to all kinds of illiberal policies.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,846

    What up all!
    Flying visit on an hilarious day.
    Zahawi Bounce on display with FoN, lolololol

    Find Out Now voting intention:
    🟦 Reform UK: 28% (-4)
    🔵 Conservatives: 19% (+1)
    🟢 Greens: 18% (+1)
    🔴 Labour: 15% (-)
    🟠 Lib Dems: 12% (-)

    Changes from 7th January
    [Find Out Now, 14th January, N=2,823]

    Lowest Reform share of the vote in a Find Out Now poll since 23rd April 2025.

    if we do changes on the Find Out Now poll of a year ago (15th January 2025), then we have:
    RFM +3
    CON -6
    GRN +8
    LAB -9
    LDM (nc)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,379
    I'm sure it's true, and so best to get ahead of it, but is the party strong enough to face the question head on - do they fight Reform, (win or lose) or do they make peace with the wolf at their door?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,811

    What up all!
    Flying visit on an hilarious day.
    Zahawi Bounce on display with FoN, lolololol

    Find Out Now voting intention:
    🟦 Reform UK: 28% (-4)
    🔵 Conservatives: 19% (+1)
    🟢 Greens: 18% (+1)
    🔴 Labour: 15% (-)
    🟠 Lib Dems: 12% (-)

    Changes from 7th January
    [Find Out Now, 14th January, N=2,823]

    I’ve just installed a Labour/Lib Dem Crossover Klaxon.
    Its a classic LDs fifth but one seat shy of official opposition (with 12%) in seats result on Baxter
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,379
    boulay said:

    Would be funny if he hadn’t been planning to defect and it was just a cunning plan to get him out of the party and make him look like a chump and then if reform do take him in they look silly.

    I can't see our MPs taking that kind of risk.
  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,942
    Is Jenrick the new Gavin Williamson?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,947
    edited 2:08PM

    I see the government is planning to ban non-alcoholic beer from the under 18s, on the grounds of no evidence whatsoever.

    When did Britain stop being a country of instinctive liberalism (as the US, despite being totally fucked, usually still is)?

    The Labour Party has never been liberal, in that sense.

    The core belief is that national, centralised government can Make Things Better, by pulling levers in a control room.

    So anything that stops them doing that is bad.

    Which is the dividing line, mainly, between that culture and the Liberal Democrats.

    See the incredulity among the Labour negotiators, during the talks about forming the Coaltion. They couldn’t understand why the Lib Dem wouldn’t sign up to all kinds of illiberal policies.
    I’m talking more broadly than that.
    British liberalism always distinguished it from continental peer countries.

    But I feel the reflex has withered and may be lost.
    I don’t see politicians of any stripes really sticking up for it.

    Like the boiled frog, many Brits don’t even realise what a nannyish state they live in. It’s very obvious the moment you step from Heathrow onto the tube.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,811
    edited 2:09PM
    kle4 said:

    I'm sure it's true, and so best to get ahead of it, but is the party strong enough to face the question head on - do they fight Reform, (win or lose) or do they make peace with the wolf at their door?

    There wont be any accomodation until Zia Yusuf is invited to f*ck very far off and after that then some sort of localised non agresssion pact probably comes into play
    Reform need to tucker themselves out with the bad 1980s Ben Elton 'grrr the TOREEZ' act first
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,306

    I tend to think that the Tory tent probably needs to be as broad as possible if they are going to both see off the challenge from Reform on their right, and make inroads on regaining voters towards the centre. It's always a difficult balancing act trying to do both at the same time, but I'm not convinced that wholesale losing its right-wing to Reform is going to help the Tories remain the leading party of the British Right.

    Also, dismissing Jenrick as acting out of "personal ambition" is not really the blow against his credibility that Badenoch thinks it is. Everyone thinks that politicians are shameless careerists, what's new? What's new is that the Tory party is no longer the vehicle for a right-wing politician with ambition. Reform is. That's not a great look for the Tories, really. They risk becoming the party for right-wingers who are unwilling to bend the knee to Farage, and I'm not convinced that constitutes a majority on the right-wing, much as I might personally admire those right-wingers with more principle than ambition.

    I agree with your first paragraph. I think it’s good for both the Tories and Labour to be broad tent parties in a 2-party system.

    But we no longer have a 2-party system. Where once FPTP created sufficient pressure to ensure that, something has happened — social media? — and the two party system has broken. The Conservative Party (and ditto Labour) need a strategy for a multi-party world, or a sure fire way to get back to a 2-party world.
    British politics broke into pieces before, and a duopoly was re-established. I wouldn't rule it out, though the parties that down that duopoly may be different.

    This is why I think the current failure of the Lib Dems to break out of their niche is so consequential. There's a chance for them to be one of the parties of a future duopoly, but they seem blind to the opportunity.

    What will tend to recreate a duopoly is the pain of repeated defeat. FPTP will give someone victory, and the other side will then conclude that they can compromise a bit more to get the government out.
    For the LDs to seize that opportunity means breaking out of their “successful” model, one that works inside their comforting bubble.

    It’s the innovator’s dilemma.

    For a start, they’d need a coherent and compelling economic offer, probably something like the “Abundance” agenda essayed here in the U.S.

    But that would mean pissing off some, probably noisy, current supporters.
    Agreed, though it probably requires a new leader for that.

    At the moment they seem instead to be hoping for a hung parliament where they can make PR the price of their support.

    Which is at least a reasonably principled position, since they have advocated for the system for a very long time.

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,846

    I’m not a Kemi fan.
    Too green, not smart enough, too lazy.
    She achieved nothing at all in government.

    But she’s done very well here.
    This won’t impact polls, but it’s one of those things that longer term help prop up Tory claims to credibility, while undermining Reform’s.

    @DavidL made some insightful comments however that Jenrick’s ability to generate political weather will be missed.

    Isn't it a bit like the Battle of Tannenberg Line?

    It's definitely a tactical victory for Badenoch to have spiked the guns of Jenrick's defection, and it reduces the short-term damage that the defection would have caused. But the defection is only happening because the tide is running very strongly against the Tories, and so it shows how strategically weak the Tory position is.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,579

    What up all!
    Flying visit on an hilarious day.
    Zahawi Bounce on display with FoN, lolololol

    Find Out Now voting intention:
    🟦 Reform UK: 28% (-4)
    🔵 Conservatives: 19% (+1)
    🟢 Greens: 18% (+1)
    🔴 Labour: 15% (-)
    🟠 Lib Dems: 12% (-)

    Changes from 7th January
    [Find Out Now, 14th January, N=2,823]

    Basic picture seems to be an almost 50:50 left-right split but with 2 right parties and 3 left parties (4 in Scotland and Wales). Whoever unites their coalition will win the next election.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,947
    Reform are going to overperform on the night of the local elections, but ultimately underperform during the day when the journalists have lost interest.

    Is that right?
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 2,095
    I think I might have a bet on Cleverly that's been in hibernation. It might be in the green now.

    Any concrete info on whether Farage was announcing a Labour defector next week or just idly speculating?

    Would like to see odds on Glassman and Mann.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,306
    .

    I see the government is planning to ban non-alcoholic beer from the under 18s, on the grounds of no evidence whatsoever...

    .. and supported by no principle either.

    A relatively minor, but utterly absurd idea.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,846

    I see the government is planning to ban non-alcoholic beer from the under 18s, on the grounds of no evidence whatsoever.

    When did Britain stop being a country of instinctive liberalism (as the US, despite being totally fucked, usually still is)?

    At least before the Dangerous Dogs Act (1991). When was the last time that banning anything was unpopular?
  • AnthonyTAnthonyT Posts: 234
    @Fairliered

    "Iran is yet another example of people being murdered in the name of religion. Since time immemorial, religion has been the cause of most deaths. This won’t change until all religions are entirely abolished."

    Don't forget Communism, Fascism, Maoism and various other apparently non-religious isms. No slouches in the mass murdering department. Let's abolish these power mad cults too.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,947
    Nigelb said:

    I tend to think that the Tory tent probably needs to be as broad as possible if they are going to both see off the challenge from Reform on their right, and make inroads on regaining voters towards the centre. It's always a difficult balancing act trying to do both at the same time, but I'm not convinced that wholesale losing its right-wing to Reform is going to help the Tories remain the leading party of the British Right.

    Also, dismissing Jenrick as acting out of "personal ambition" is not really the blow against his credibility that Badenoch thinks it is. Everyone thinks that politicians are shameless careerists, what's new? What's new is that the Tory party is no longer the vehicle for a right-wing politician with ambition. Reform is. That's not a great look for the Tories, really. They risk becoming the party for right-wingers who are unwilling to bend the knee to Farage, and I'm not convinced that constitutes a majority on the right-wing, much as I might personally admire those right-wingers with more principle than ambition.

    I agree with your first paragraph. I think it’s good for both the Tories and Labour to be broad tent parties in a 2-party system.

    But we no longer have a 2-party system. Where once FPTP created sufficient pressure to ensure that, something has happened — social media? — and the two party system has broken. The Conservative Party (and ditto Labour) need a strategy for a multi-party world, or a sure fire way to get back to a 2-party world.
    British politics broke into pieces before, and a duopoly was re-established. I wouldn't rule it out, though the parties that down that duopoly may be different.

    This is why I think the current failure of the Lib Dems to break out of their niche is so consequential. There's a chance for them to be one of the parties of a future duopoly, but they seem blind to the opportunity.

    What will tend to recreate a duopoly is the pain of repeated defeat. FPTP will give someone victory, and the other side will then conclude that they can compromise a bit more to get the government out.
    For the LDs to seize that opportunity means breaking out of their “successful” model, one that works inside their comforting bubble.

    It’s the innovator’s dilemma.

    For a start, they’d need a coherent and compelling economic offer, probably something like the “Abundance” agenda essayed here in the U.S.

    But that would mean pissing off some, probably noisy, current supporters.
    Agreed, though it probably requires a new leader for that.

    At the moment they seem instead to be hoping for a hung parliament where they can make PR the price of their support.

    Which is at least a reasonably principled position, since they have advocated for the system for a very long time.

    This is bad strategy.
    PR itself doesn’t push them toward breakout from their permanent 10-15% box.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,286
    stjohn said:

    Is Jenrick the new Gavin Williamson?

    Williamson is still an MP but SFAICS has made himself entirely invisible.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,141
    edited 2:17PM

    What up all!
    Flying visit on an hilarious day.
    Zahawi Bounce on display with FoN, lolololol

    Find Out Now voting intention:
    🟦 Reform UK: 28% (-4)
    🔵 Conservatives: 19% (+1)
    🟢 Greens: 18% (+1)
    🔴 Labour: 15% (-)
    🟠 Lib Dems: 12% (-)

    Changes from 7th January
    [Find Out Now, 14th January, N=2,823]

    Basic picture seems to be an almost 50:50 left-right split but with 2 right parties and 3 left parties (4 in Scotland and Wales). Whoever unites their coalition will win the next election.
    There's more than one way to skin a cat. To win under FPTP, you need to 'unite your coalition' and/or optimise the geographical spread of your vote and/or have tactical voting work for you. (I guess the last could be considered uniting your coalition.)
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,811
    edited 2:16PM

    Reform are going to overperform on the night of the local elections, but ultimately underperform during the day when the journalists have lost interest.

    Is that right?

    Whens London counting?
    They will look 'one of many' in London, underperform in Scotland and fall short of first probably in Wales but clean up in many of the councils going ahead
    It wont be as good for them or as bad for the Tories as 2025. The Tories arent defending many councils and will already definitely retain Broxbourne (leaving outside London - Norfolk, Essex and Fareham as defences i think) edit - and Hampshire
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 18,141

    Nigelb said:

    I tend to think that the Tory tent probably needs to be as broad as possible if they are going to both see off the challenge from Reform on their right, and make inroads on regaining voters towards the centre. It's always a difficult balancing act trying to do both at the same time, but I'm not convinced that wholesale losing its right-wing to Reform is going to help the Tories remain the leading party of the British Right.

    Also, dismissing Jenrick as acting out of "personal ambition" is not really the blow against his credibility that Badenoch thinks it is. Everyone thinks that politicians are shameless careerists, what's new? What's new is that the Tory party is no longer the vehicle for a right-wing politician with ambition. Reform is. That's not a great look for the Tories, really. They risk becoming the party for right-wingers who are unwilling to bend the knee to Farage, and I'm not convinced that constitutes a majority on the right-wing, much as I might personally admire those right-wingers with more principle than ambition.

    I agree with your first paragraph. I think it’s good for both the Tories and Labour to be broad tent parties in a 2-party system.

    But we no longer have a 2-party system. Where once FPTP created sufficient pressure to ensure that, something has happened — social media? — and the two party system has broken. The Conservative Party (and ditto Labour) need a strategy for a multi-party world, or a sure fire way to get back to a 2-party world.
    British politics broke into pieces before, and a duopoly was re-established. I wouldn't rule it out, though the parties that down that duopoly may be different.

    This is why I think the current failure of the Lib Dems to break out of their niche is so consequential. There's a chance for them to be one of the parties of a future duopoly, but they seem blind to the opportunity.

    What will tend to recreate a duopoly is the pain of repeated defeat. FPTP will give someone victory, and the other side will then conclude that they can compromise a bit more to get the government out.
    For the LDs to seize that opportunity means breaking out of their “successful” model, one that works inside their comforting bubble.

    It’s the innovator’s dilemma.

    For a start, they’d need a coherent and compelling economic offer, probably something like the “Abundance” agenda essayed here in the U.S.

    But that would mean pissing off some, probably noisy, current supporters.
    Agreed, though it probably requires a new leader for that.

    At the moment they seem instead to be hoping for a hung parliament where they can make PR the price of their support.

    Which is at least a reasonably principled position, since they have advocated for the system for a very long time.

    This is bad strategy.
    PR itself doesn’t push them toward breakout from their permanent 10-15% box.
    It is a core LibDem belief that people don't vote for the party because they think the LibDems can't win wherever they're voting. If you solve that (e.g., with voting reform), the logic goes, people will rush to vote LibDem, way beyond the current 15% apparent ceiling.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,306
    The first evidence of any real organisational ability.
    Hardly rocket science, but it's not nothing.

    Kemi Badenoch's ambush of Robert Jenrick was carefully planned and deliberately timed for Nigel Farage's press conference

    Rebecca Harris, the chief whip, called Jenrick to tell him he had been sacked while Farage was holding his press conference

    At 11.06, moments after Jenrick slammed the phone down after protesting his innocence, Kemi Badenoch announced on X that she was sacking Jenrick with a pre-recorded video

    It meant Nigel Farage faced questions at the presser and that team Jenrick were caught completely unawares..

    https://x.com/Steven_Swinford/status/2011779415097671790
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,846

    Nigelb said:

    I tend to think that the Tory tent probably needs to be as broad as possible if they are going to both see off the challenge from Reform on their right, and make inroads on regaining voters towards the centre. It's always a difficult balancing act trying to do both at the same time, but I'm not convinced that wholesale losing its right-wing to Reform is going to help the Tories remain the leading party of the British Right.

    Also, dismissing Jenrick as acting out of "personal ambition" is not really the blow against his credibility that Badenoch thinks it is. Everyone thinks that politicians are shameless careerists, what's new? What's new is that the Tory party is no longer the vehicle for a right-wing politician with ambition. Reform is. That's not a great look for the Tories, really. They risk becoming the party for right-wingers who are unwilling to bend the knee to Farage, and I'm not convinced that constitutes a majority on the right-wing, much as I might personally admire those right-wingers with more principle than ambition.

    I agree with your first paragraph. I think it’s good for both the Tories and Labour to be broad tent parties in a 2-party system.

    But we no longer have a 2-party system. Where once FPTP created sufficient pressure to ensure that, something has happened — social media? — and the two party system has broken. The Conservative Party (and ditto Labour) need a strategy for a multi-party world, or a sure fire way to get back to a 2-party world.
    British politics broke into pieces before, and a duopoly was re-established. I wouldn't rule it out, though the parties that down that duopoly may be different.

    This is why I think the current failure of the Lib Dems to break out of their niche is so consequential. There's a chance for them to be one of the parties of a future duopoly, but they seem blind to the opportunity.

    What will tend to recreate a duopoly is the pain of repeated defeat. FPTP will give someone victory, and the other side will then conclude that they can compromise a bit more to get the government out.
    For the LDs to seize that opportunity means breaking out of their “successful” model, one that works inside their comforting bubble.

    It’s the innovator’s dilemma.

    For a start, they’d need a coherent and compelling economic offer, probably something like the “Abundance” agenda essayed here in the U.S.

    But that would mean pissing off some, probably noisy, current supporters.
    Agreed, though it probably requires a new leader for that.

    At the moment they seem instead to be hoping for a hung parliament where they can make PR the price of their support.

    Which is at least a reasonably principled position, since they have advocated for the system for a very long time.

    This is bad strategy.
    PR itself doesn’t push them toward breakout from their permanent 10-15% box.
    The evidence in Scotland and Wales is the opposite. The Lib Dems have done pretty badly in what were once considered redoubts of the old Liberal party, which have had quasi-PR systems.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,947

    Nigelb said:

    I tend to think that the Tory tent probably needs to be as broad as possible if they are going to both see off the challenge from Reform on their right, and make inroads on regaining voters towards the centre. It's always a difficult balancing act trying to do both at the same time, but I'm not convinced that wholesale losing its right-wing to Reform is going to help the Tories remain the leading party of the British Right.

    Also, dismissing Jenrick as acting out of "personal ambition" is not really the blow against his credibility that Badenoch thinks it is. Everyone thinks that politicians are shameless careerists, what's new? What's new is that the Tory party is no longer the vehicle for a right-wing politician with ambition. Reform is. That's not a great look for the Tories, really. They risk becoming the party for right-wingers who are unwilling to bend the knee to Farage, and I'm not convinced that constitutes a majority on the right-wing, much as I might personally admire those right-wingers with more principle than ambition.

    I agree with your first paragraph. I think it’s good for both the Tories and Labour to be broad tent parties in a 2-party system.

    But we no longer have a 2-party system. Where once FPTP created sufficient pressure to ensure that, something has happened — social media? — and the two party system has broken. The Conservative Party (and ditto Labour) need a strategy for a multi-party world, or a sure fire way to get back to a 2-party world.
    British politics broke into pieces before, and a duopoly was re-established. I wouldn't rule it out, though the parties that down that duopoly may be different.

    This is why I think the current failure of the Lib Dems to break out of their niche is so consequential. There's a chance for them to be one of the parties of a future duopoly, but they seem blind to the opportunity.

    What will tend to recreate a duopoly is the pain of repeated defeat. FPTP will give someone victory, and the other side will then conclude that they can compromise a bit more to get the government out.
    For the LDs to seize that opportunity means breaking out of their “successful” model, one that works inside their comforting bubble.

    It’s the innovator’s dilemma.

    For a start, they’d need a coherent and compelling economic offer, probably something like the “Abundance” agenda essayed here in the U.S.

    But that would mean pissing off some, probably noisy, current supporters.
    Agreed, though it probably requires a new leader for that.

    At the moment they seem instead to be hoping for a hung parliament where they can make PR the price of their support.

    Which is at least a reasonably principled position, since they have advocated for the system for a very long time.

    This is bad strategy.
    PR itself doesn’t push them toward breakout from their permanent 10-15% box.
    It is a core LibDem belief that people don't vote for the party because they think the LibDems can't win wherever they're voting. If you solve that (e.g., with voting reform), the logic goes, people will rush to vote LibDem, way beyond the current 15% apparent ceiling.
    Yeh, the argument is faulty, but as you say it’s a core belief.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,811
    algarkirk said:

    stjohn said:

    Is Jenrick the new Gavin Williamson?

    Williamson is still an MP but SFAICS has made himself entirely invisible.
    Probably in the safest Tory seat outside Harrow
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,306
    edited 2:19PM

    Nigelb said:

    I tend to think that the Tory tent probably needs to be as broad as possible if they are going to both see off the challenge from Reform on their right, and make inroads on regaining voters towards the centre. It's always a difficult balancing act trying to do both at the same time, but I'm not convinced that wholesale losing its right-wing to Reform is going to help the Tories remain the leading party of the British Right.

    Also, dismissing Jenrick as acting out of "personal ambition" is not really the blow against his credibility that Badenoch thinks it is. Everyone thinks that politicians are shameless careerists, what's new? What's new is that the Tory party is no longer the vehicle for a right-wing politician with ambition. Reform is. That's not a great look for the Tories, really. They risk becoming the party for right-wingers who are unwilling to bend the knee to Farage, and I'm not convinced that constitutes a majority on the right-wing, much as I might personally admire those right-wingers with more principle than ambition.

    I agree with your first paragraph. I think it’s good for both the Tories and Labour to be broad tent parties in a 2-party system.

    But we no longer have a 2-party system. Where once FPTP created sufficient pressure to ensure that, something has happened — social media? — and the two party system has broken. The Conservative Party (and ditto Labour) need a strategy for a multi-party world, or a sure fire way to get back to a 2-party world.
    British politics broke into pieces before, and a duopoly was re-established. I wouldn't rule it out, though the parties that down that duopoly may be different.

    This is why I think the current failure of the Lib Dems to break out of their niche is so consequential. There's a chance for them to be one of the parties of a future duopoly, but they seem blind to the opportunity.

    What will tend to recreate a duopoly is the pain of repeated defeat. FPTP will give someone victory, and the other side will then conclude that they can compromise a bit more to get the government out.
    For the LDs to seize that opportunity means breaking out of their “successful” model, one that works inside their comforting bubble.

    It’s the innovator’s dilemma.

    For a start, they’d need a coherent and compelling economic offer, probably something like the “Abundance” agenda essayed here in the U.S.

    But that would mean pissing off some, probably noisy, current supporters.
    Agreed, though it probably requires a new leader for that.

    At the moment they seem instead to be hoping for a hung parliament where they can make PR the price of their support.

    Which is at least a reasonably principled position, since they have advocated for the system for a very long time.

    This is bad strategy.
    PR itself doesn’t push them toward breakout from their permanent 10-15% box.
    I don't really disagree.
    Getting PR is more likely if they adopt a more ambitious strategy, I think.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,930
    Nigelb said:

    .

    I see the government is planning to ban non-alcoholic beer from the under 18s, on the grounds of no evidence whatsoever...

    .. and supported by no principle either.

    A relatively minor, but utterly absurd idea.
    I’ve heard it said that the reason for the ban is a concern that non-alcoholic drinks may become a gateway for young people to become (bigger) drinkers.

    Somewhat like vapes and smoking.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,846

    Nigelb said:

    I tend to think that the Tory tent probably needs to be as broad as possible if they are going to both see off the challenge from Reform on their right, and make inroads on regaining voters towards the centre. It's always a difficult balancing act trying to do both at the same time, but I'm not convinced that wholesale losing its right-wing to Reform is going to help the Tories remain the leading party of the British Right.

    Also, dismissing Jenrick as acting out of "personal ambition" is not really the blow against his credibility that Badenoch thinks it is. Everyone thinks that politicians are shameless careerists, what's new? What's new is that the Tory party is no longer the vehicle for a right-wing politician with ambition. Reform is. That's not a great look for the Tories, really. They risk becoming the party for right-wingers who are unwilling to bend the knee to Farage, and I'm not convinced that constitutes a majority on the right-wing, much as I might personally admire those right-wingers with more principle than ambition.

    I agree with your first paragraph. I think it’s good for both the Tories and Labour to be broad tent parties in a 2-party system.

    But we no longer have a 2-party system. Where once FPTP created sufficient pressure to ensure that, something has happened — social media? — and the two party system has broken. The Conservative Party (and ditto Labour) need a strategy for a multi-party world, or a sure fire way to get back to a 2-party world.
    British politics broke into pieces before, and a duopoly was re-established. I wouldn't rule it out, though the parties that down that duopoly may be different.

    This is why I think the current failure of the Lib Dems to break out of their niche is so consequential. There's a chance for them to be one of the parties of a future duopoly, but they seem blind to the opportunity.

    What will tend to recreate a duopoly is the pain of repeated defeat. FPTP will give someone victory, and the other side will then conclude that they can compromise a bit more to get the government out.
    For the LDs to seize that opportunity means breaking out of their “successful” model, one that works inside their comforting bubble.

    It’s the innovator’s dilemma.

    For a start, they’d need a coherent and compelling economic offer, probably something like the “Abundance” agenda essayed here in the U.S.

    But that would mean pissing off some, probably noisy, current supporters.
    Agreed, though it probably requires a new leader for that.

    At the moment they seem instead to be hoping for a hung parliament where they can make PR the price of their support.

    Which is at least a reasonably principled position, since they have advocated for the system for a very long time.

    This is bad strategy.
    PR itself doesn’t push them toward breakout from their permanent 10-15% box.
    It is a core LibDem belief that people don't vote for the party because they think the LibDems can't win wherever they're voting. If you solve that (e.g., with voting reform), the logic goes, people will rush to vote LibDem, way beyond the current 15% apparent ceiling.
    Holyrood 2021, regional list vote, Lib Dems, 5.1%
    Senedd 2021, regional list vote, Lib Dems, 4.3%

    I rest my case m'lud.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 8,042
    kle4 said:

    boulay said:

    Would be funny if he hadn’t been planning to defect and it was just a cunning plan to get him out of the party and make him look like a chump and then if reform do take him in they look silly.

    I can't see our MPs taking that kind of risk.
    I worded that terribly as was in a rush - I meant that Kemi had come up with this ruse to get him out of the party - make up a story that he was defecting and then sack him as she couldn’t have just sacked him for being a twit but this gives cause! Obviously not the case but would be very funny.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,947
    edited 2:21PM
    As I’ve said many times, NZ is your guide to what happens when you move from FPTP to (proper) PR.

    A decade of instability and then things kinda of go back to what they were like before, except you now have a permanent green, nationalist, and populist presence which the main parties have to deal with.

    The Lib Dems, ceteris paribus, would probably *decline* in % support under PR, because their core offer doesn’t land distinctively and appealingly enough at a *national* level.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 39,011
    Can anyone recommend the best city/town to visit in southern Portugal?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,811

    Nigelb said:

    I tend to think that the Tory tent probably needs to be as broad as possible if they are going to both see off the challenge from Reform on their right, and make inroads on regaining voters towards the centre. It's always a difficult balancing act trying to do both at the same time, but I'm not convinced that wholesale losing its right-wing to Reform is going to help the Tories remain the leading party of the British Right.

    Also, dismissing Jenrick as acting out of "personal ambition" is not really the blow against his credibility that Badenoch thinks it is. Everyone thinks that politicians are shameless careerists, what's new? What's new is that the Tory party is no longer the vehicle for a right-wing politician with ambition. Reform is. That's not a great look for the Tories, really. They risk becoming the party for right-wingers who are unwilling to bend the knee to Farage, and I'm not convinced that constitutes a majority on the right-wing, much as I might personally admire those right-wingers with more principle than ambition.

    I agree with your first paragraph. I think it’s good for both the Tories and Labour to be broad tent parties in a 2-party system.

    But we no longer have a 2-party system. Where once FPTP created sufficient pressure to ensure that, something has happened — social media? — and the two party system has broken. The Conservative Party (and ditto Labour) need a strategy for a multi-party world, or a sure fire way to get back to a 2-party world.
    British politics broke into pieces before, and a duopoly was re-established. I wouldn't rule it out, though the parties that down that duopoly may be different.

    This is why I think the current failure of the Lib Dems to break out of their niche is so consequential. There's a chance for them to be one of the parties of a future duopoly, but they seem blind to the opportunity.

    What will tend to recreate a duopoly is the pain of repeated defeat. FPTP will give someone victory, and the other side will then conclude that they can compromise a bit more to get the government out.
    For the LDs to seize that opportunity means breaking out of their “successful” model, one that works inside their comforting bubble.

    It’s the innovator’s dilemma.

    For a start, they’d need a coherent and compelling economic offer, probably something like the “Abundance” agenda essayed here in the U.S.

    But that would mean pissing off some, probably noisy, current supporters.
    Agreed, though it probably requires a new leader for that.

    At the moment they seem instead to be hoping for a hung parliament where they can make PR the price of their support.

    Which is at least a reasonably principled position, since they have advocated for the system for a very long time.

    This is bad strategy.
    PR itself doesn’t push them toward breakout from their permanent 10-15% box.
    It is a core LibDem belief that people don't vote for the party because they think the LibDems can't win wherever they're voting. If you solve that (e.g., with voting reform), the logic goes, people will rush to vote LibDem, way beyond the current 15% apparent ceiling.
    Holyrood 2021, regional list vote, Lib Dems, 5.1%
    Senedd 2021, regional list vote, Lib Dems, 4.3%

    I rest my case m'lud.
    Welsh Liberalism is almost extinct under PR indeed, theyll do well to get more than 1, possibly 2 members in May
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 6,501
    Bemusing to me why Tories are celebrating today’s news. There is only so far they can squeeze the Lib Dems. And it casts quite a lot of doubt on their ability to rebuild their big tent and re-attract lost voters of the right, if they can’t keep the likes of Jenrick on board.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,379

    Nigelb said:

    .

    I see the government is planning to ban non-alcoholic beer from the under 18s, on the grounds of no evidence whatsoever...

    .. and supported by no principle either.

    A relatively minor, but utterly absurd idea.
    I’ve heard it said that the reason for the ban is a concern that non-alcoholic drinks may become a gateway for young people to become (bigger) drinkers.

    Somewhat like vapes and smoking.
    Sounds rather vague grounds for it. Also, so long as they still cannot buy alcohol, why does it matter if they get a taste for the non-alcoholic stuff? They'll be adults by then (and voters long before, it is plan).

    Signed, a teetotaller
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,306
    edited 2:26PM

    Nigelb said:

    I tend to think that the Tory tent probably needs to be as broad as possible if they are going to both see off the challenge from Reform on their right, and make inroads on regaining voters towards the centre. It's always a difficult balancing act trying to do both at the same time, but I'm not convinced that wholesale losing its right-wing to Reform is going to help the Tories remain the leading party of the British Right.

    Also, dismissing Jenrick as acting out of "personal ambition" is not really the blow against his credibility that Badenoch thinks it is. Everyone thinks that politicians are shameless careerists, what's new? What's new is that the Tory party is no longer the vehicle for a right-wing politician with ambition. Reform is. That's not a great look for the Tories, really. They risk becoming the party for right-wingers who are unwilling to bend the knee to Farage, and I'm not convinced that constitutes a majority on the right-wing, much as I might personally admire those right-wingers with more principle than ambition.

    I agree with your first paragraph. I think it’s good for both the Tories and Labour to be broad tent parties in a 2-party system.

    But we no longer have a 2-party system. Where once FPTP created sufficient pressure to ensure that, something has happened — social media? — and the two party system has broken. The Conservative Party (and ditto Labour) need a strategy for a multi-party world, or a sure fire way to get back to a 2-party world.
    British politics broke into pieces before, and a duopoly was re-established. I wouldn't rule it out, though the parties that down that duopoly may be different.

    This is why I think the current failure of the Lib Dems to break out of their niche is so consequential. There's a chance for them to be one of the parties of a future duopoly, but they seem blind to the opportunity.

    What will tend to recreate a duopoly is the pain of repeated defeat. FPTP will give someone victory, and the other side will then conclude that they can compromise a bit more to get the government out.
    For the LDs to seize that opportunity means breaking out of their “successful” model, one that works inside their comforting bubble.

    It’s the innovator’s dilemma.

    For a start, they’d need a coherent and compelling economic offer, probably something like the “Abundance” agenda essayed here in the U.S.

    But that would mean pissing off some, probably noisy, current supporters.
    Agreed, though it probably requires a new leader for that.

    At the moment they seem instead to be hoping for a hung parliament where they can make PR the price of their support.

    Which is at least a reasonably principled position, since they have advocated for the system for a very long time.

    This is bad strategy.
    PR itself doesn’t push them toward breakout from their permanent 10-15% box.
    The evidence in Scotland and Wales is the opposite. The Lib Dems have done pretty badly in what were once considered redoubts of the old Liberal party, which have had quasi-PR systems.
    I don't think that's Gardenwalker's point.

    He's talking about what political pitch would most benefit them at the next election rather than which future electoral system they might thrive under.

    (Edit.. I see it is his point.
    He's right about the pitch; and wrong about PR, IMO.)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 57,322
    On a slightly different point Russia has now suffered 1.22m casualties in Ukraine. To put that into perspective it is more than 20x the casualties that the US suffered in Vietnam (58k) traumatising a nation and producing endless songs, films, books and documentaries. And this is from a significantly lower population of 144m compared with the US population of 200m in 1968. Russia continues to suffer a Vietnam of casualties every 2 months. Trump is as mad as a box of frogs but Putin is a sociopath of a completely different order.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 39,011

    Nigelb said:

    I tend to think that the Tory tent probably needs to be as broad as possible if they are going to both see off the challenge from Reform on their right, and make inroads on regaining voters towards the centre. It's always a difficult balancing act trying to do both at the same time, but I'm not convinced that wholesale losing its right-wing to Reform is going to help the Tories remain the leading party of the British Right.

    Also, dismissing Jenrick as acting out of "personal ambition" is not really the blow against his credibility that Badenoch thinks it is. Everyone thinks that politicians are shameless careerists, what's new? What's new is that the Tory party is no longer the vehicle for a right-wing politician with ambition. Reform is. That's not a great look for the Tories, really. They risk becoming the party for right-wingers who are unwilling to bend the knee to Farage, and I'm not convinced that constitutes a majority on the right-wing, much as I might personally admire those right-wingers with more principle than ambition.

    I agree with your first paragraph. I think it’s good for both the Tories and Labour to be broad tent parties in a 2-party system.

    But we no longer have a 2-party system. Where once FPTP created sufficient pressure to ensure that, something has happened — social media? — and the two party system has broken. The Conservative Party (and ditto Labour) need a strategy for a multi-party world, or a sure fire way to get back to a 2-party world.
    British politics broke into pieces before, and a duopoly was re-established. I wouldn't rule it out, though the parties that down that duopoly may be different.

    This is why I think the current failure of the Lib Dems to break out of their niche is so consequential. There's a chance for them to be one of the parties of a future duopoly, but they seem blind to the opportunity.

    What will tend to recreate a duopoly is the pain of repeated defeat. FPTP will give someone victory, and the other side will then conclude that they can compromise a bit more to get the government out.
    For the LDs to seize that opportunity means breaking out of their “successful” model, one that works inside their comforting bubble.

    It’s the innovator’s dilemma.

    For a start, they’d need a coherent and compelling economic offer, probably something like the “Abundance” agenda essayed here in the U.S.

    But that would mean pissing off some, probably noisy, current supporters.
    Agreed, though it probably requires a new leader for that.

    At the moment they seem instead to be hoping for a hung parliament where they can make PR the price of their support.

    Which is at least a reasonably principled position, since they have advocated for the system for a very long time.

    This is bad strategy.
    PR itself doesn’t push them toward breakout from their permanent 10-15% box.
    It is a core LibDem belief that people don't vote for the party because they think the LibDems can't win wherever they're voting. If you solve that (e.g., with voting reform), the logic goes, people will rush to vote LibDem, way beyond the current 15% apparent ceiling.
    The only problem with this idea is that the German equivalent of the LDs, the Free Democrats, are currently on about 3-4% in the polls despite a proportional voting system.
  • DumbosaurusDumbosaurus Posts: 939

    As I’ve said many times, NZ is your guide to what happens when you move from FPTP to (proper) PR.

    A decade of instability and then things kinda of go back to what they were like before, except you now have a permanent green, nationalist, and populist presence which the main parties have to deal with.

    Which is fine of course. That's democracy and people are entitled to hold those views, retarded as they all are.
  • eekeek Posts: 32,282
    Nigelb said:

    The first evidence of any real organisational ability.
    Hardly rocket science, but it's not nothing.

    Kemi Badenoch's ambush of Robert Jenrick was carefully planned and deliberately timed for Nigel Farage's press conference

    Rebecca Harris, the chief whip, called Jenrick to tell him he had been sacked while Farage was holding his press conference

    At 11.06, moments after Jenrick slammed the phone down after protesting his innocence, Kemi Badenoch announced on X that she was sacking Jenrick with a pre-recorded video

    It meant Nigel Farage faced questions at the presser and that team Jenrick were caught completely unawares..

    https://x.com/Steven_Swinford/status/2011779415097671790

    Not rocket science but neither the Tories or Labour have demonstrated anything like such organisational skills in the past 3 years...
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