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Voters think 2026 will be the end of the Keir show – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,874
edited January 6 in General
Voters think 2026 will be the end of the Keir show – politicalbetting.com

How likely or unlikely do you think it is that Keir Starmer will still be prime minister at the end of 2026?Very likely: 6%Fairly likely: 23%Fairly unlikely: 26%Very unlikely: 29%yougov.co.uk/topics/polit…

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  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,167
    edited January 6
    Though mostly driven by RefCon voters, who are even less likely to have a say in the matter than the rest of us.

    (Oh, and first?)
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,559
    It beggars belief that a PM who won a million seat majority only a year and a half ago is not expected to be able to last another twelve months - not because of any particular scandal (there have been a few but none really devastating) but because of general ineptitude and the ambivalence of his voters. It's an astonishing turnaround.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,043
    Should give us decent odds for backing him still to be there at the end of the year, then ?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 36,250
    Sandpit said:

    He’ll still be there this time next year.

    Well I suppose Trump could f*** the World up to the extent that Starmer becomes an unlikely Churchillian figure and survives.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,103
    The wish is father to the thought.

    He really is hated. The more so the longer he hangs around. We have as our PM a fart in a space suit.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 125,519
    Sandpit said:

    He’ll still be there this time next year.

    My book is happy reading this.
  • Cookie said:

    It beggars belief that a PM who won a million seat majority only a year and a half ago is not expected to be able to last another twelve months - not because of any particular scandal (there have been a few but none really devastating) but because of general ineptitude and the ambivalence of his voters. It's an astonishing turnaround.

    The problem with having support a mile wide but a nanometre deep.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 59,115
    West Midlands police story gets worse.

    https://x.com/nj_timothy/status/2008534253328625912

    Chief Constable is likely toast now, well done to Nick Timothy MP for the campaign.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,167
    Sandpit said:

    He’ll still be there this time next year.

    There's nobody available who is plausibly going to do a better job, and any ambitious scamps looking to take over will want to wait until the Carney window- just enough time to fling out some pre-election goodies but no more than that. Which points to Autumn 2028 before a May 2029 election.

    For those who hate the idea of Starmer and want him gone tomorrow- this is what losing elections is like. Irrelevance, impotence and people at parties asking you if Robert Peston is always like that.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 57,009

    The wish is father to the thought.

    He really is hated. The more so the longer he hangs around. We have as our PM a fart in a space suit.

    The greatest mystery is why his social media comms remain so robotic and formulaic because you'd think it would be the easiest thing to fix. Maybe it will eventually emerge that he's actually been insisting on writing his own tweets.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 69,403
    Trump ranting about mail-in ballots yet again.

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,716
    I am not at all convinced Starmer will be gone this year, but where labour will be in public opinion should be a worry for labour supporters

    5th behind everyone anyone ?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,716

    Trump ranting about mail-in ballots yet again.

    Trump ranting is sufficient and Sky show it all with no breaks for over an hour
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,731
    Cookie said:

    It beggars belief that a PM who won a million seat majority only a year and a half ago is not expected to be able to last another twelve months - not because of any particular scandal (there have been a few but none really devastating) but because of general ineptitude and the ambivalence of his voters. It's an astonishing turnaround.

    It does, although the real culprit is our absurd voting system that handed his party representation that looks like he had the overwhelming support of British voters, when the truth was that he absolutely did not.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,015
    The imminent Hungarian election mentioned on the the other thread is interesting but, I suspect, indecipherable to anybody only consuming English language media. It's basically Orbantz vs Maygar (who has a Fukker style one man band for a party) all contested on the back of that super incomprehensible pardongate noncing scandal. Presumably it will drift through Trump's unstructured consciousness at some point he'll use enough cajolery and threats to tip it in Orban's favour.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,866
    He can't be pushed but he might jump. Need to be able to read Starmer's mind to answer this question IMO
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,103

    Trump ranting about mail-in ballots yet again.

    They will be the mail-in ballots the Republicans use more than the Dems...
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,167

    Cookie said:

    It beggars belief that a PM who won a million seat majority only a year and a half ago is not expected to be able to last another twelve months - not because of any particular scandal (there have been a few but none really devastating) but because of general ineptitude and the ambivalence of his voters. It's an astonishing turnaround.

    It's not really that surprising. He only received just over one-third of the vote, a really risible share of the vote, only 1.6pp higher than Corbyn received at the disastrous 2019GE, or 1pp higher than Howard received at the 2005GE, or 1pp *lower* share of the vote than Kinnock received at the 1992GE.

    So Starmer started off less popular than some oppositions, and yet was handed a huge landslide - upsetting the British sense of fair play - and didn't really have any idea how to talk to his supporters, yet alone the voters who voted for other parties.

    We should anticipate the next government having even more serious problems in this regard. The hat time any party received a greater share of the vote on an opinion poll, than Labour received at the 2024GE, was more than three months ago, at the beginning of October, and it's only happened a handful of times this Parliament thus far. Therefore we can anticipate that the PM after the next GE will have an even narrower base of support - regardless of how many MPs the increasingly absurd FPTP system gives them - and so have even greater difficulties maintaining public support.
    It's inevitable if you have five parties polling meaningful numbers, instead of two-and-a-bit.

    Partly that's because electronics make it easier to breathe life into Potemkin Parties with a leader, a signup site and not much else. Partly because we, as a society, are less willing to compromise. We want our version of left or right, or we're not playing. Neither of those factors is going away. You see the same thing elsewhere (except, strangely, the USA), but it makes a mess of FPTP.
  • MelonBMelonB Posts: 16,642

    Cookie said:

    It beggars belief that a PM who won a million seat majority only a year and a half ago is not expected to be able to last another twelve months - not because of any particular scandal (there have been a few but none really devastating) but because of general ineptitude and the ambivalence of his voters. It's an astonishing turnaround.

    It's not really that surprising. He only received just over one-third of the vote, a really risible share of the vote, only 1.6pp higher than Corbyn received at the disastrous 2019GE, or 1pp higher than Howard received at the 2005GE, or 1pp *lower* share of the vote than Kinnock received at the 1992GE.

    So Starmer started off less popular than some oppositions, and yet was handed a huge landslide - upsetting the British sense of fair play - and didn't really have any idea how to talk to his supporters, yet alone the voters who voted for other parties.

    We should anticipate the next government having even more serious problems in this regard. The hat time any party received a greater share of the vote on an opinion poll, than Labour received at the 2024GE, was more than three months ago, at the beginning of October, and it's only happened a handful of times this Parliament thus far. Therefore we can anticipate that the PM after the next GE will have an even narrower base of support - regardless of how many MPs the increasingly absurd FPTP system gives them - and so have even greater difficulties maintaining public support.
    It would be interesting to see hypothetical seat numbers for current polling under a few different voting systems.

    I call ag the time of the AV referendum the models suggested only marginal changes from FPTP (as opposed to STV which would have given a very different result). But now I think AV would give us some very different seat counts, generally at the expense of Reform.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,751

    Cookie said:

    It beggars belief that a PM who won a million seat majority only a year and a half ago is not expected to be able to last another twelve months - not because of any particular scandal (there have been a few but none really devastating) but because of general ineptitude and the ambivalence of his voters. It's an astonishing turnaround.

    It's not really that surprising. He only received just over one-third of the vote, a really risible share of the vote, only 1.6pp higher than Corbyn received at the disastrous 2019GE, or 1pp higher than Howard received at the 2005GE, or 1pp *lower* share of the vote than Kinnock received at the 1992GE.

    So Starmer started off less popular than some oppositions, and yet was handed a huge landslide - upsetting the British sense of fair play - and didn't really have any idea how to talk to his supporters, yet alone the voters who voted for other parties.

    We should anticipate the next government having even more serious problems in this regard. The hat time any party received a greater share of the vote on an opinion poll, than Labour received at the 2024GE, was more than three months ago, at the beginning of October, and it's only happened a handful of times this Parliament thus far. Therefore we can anticipate that the PM after the next GE will have an even narrower base of support - regardless of how many MPs the increasingly absurd FPTP system gives them - and so have even greater difficulties maintaining public support.
    It's inevitable if you have five parties polling meaningful numbers, instead of two-and-a-bit.

    Partly that's because electronics make it easier to breathe life into Potemkin Parties with a leader, a signup site and not much else. Partly because we, as a society, are less willing to compromise. We want our version of left or right, or we're not playing. Neither of those factors is going away. You see the same thing elsewhere (except, strangely, the USA), but it makes a mess of FPTP.
    You have to remember that the primary system makes the US implementation of FPTP a two-stage process. First you have a public battle on each side for which version of left or right you want, and then you have the two victorious versions of left/right do battle in the general election.

    A lot of the fragmentation is played out in the primary contests.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 41,450
    @atrupar

    Trump: "You gotta win the midterms. Because if we don't win the midterms, they'll find a reason to impeach me. I'll get impeached."

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/2008577291207504057?s=20
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,751
    MelonB said:

    Cookie said:

    It beggars belief that a PM who won a million seat majority only a year and a half ago is not expected to be able to last another twelve months - not because of any particular scandal (there have been a few but none really devastating) but because of general ineptitude and the ambivalence of his voters. It's an astonishing turnaround.

    It's not really that surprising. He only received just over one-third of the vote, a really risible share of the vote, only 1.6pp higher than Corbyn received at the disastrous 2019GE, or 1pp higher than Howard received at the 2005GE, or 1pp *lower* share of the vote than Kinnock received at the 1992GE.

    So Starmer started off less popular than some oppositions, and yet was handed a huge landslide - upsetting the British sense of fair play - and didn't really have any idea how to talk to his supporters, yet alone the voters who voted for other parties.

    We should anticipate the next government having even more serious problems in this regard. The hat time any party received a greater share of the vote on an opinion poll, than Labour received at the 2024GE, was more than three months ago, at the beginning of October, and it's only happened a handful of times this Parliament thus far. Therefore we can anticipate that the PM after the next GE will have an even narrower base of support - regardless of how many MPs the increasingly absurd FPTP system gives them - and so have even greater difficulties maintaining public support.
    It would be interesting to see hypothetical seat numbers for current polling under a few different voting systems.

    I call ag the time of the AV referendum the models suggested only marginal changes from FPTP (as opposed to STV which would have given a very different result). But now I think AV would give us some very different seat counts, generally at the expense of Reform.
    AV would be the only way to get meaningful numbers of Labour/Left voters to vote tactically for the Tories against Reform in a forced choice.

    Although even then, we see in Scottish local elections that a lot of votes drop out at lower preferences, as voters refuse to give a preference.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,199
    By the end of 2026: Starmer and Badenoch still in place.
    Reform no longer in a clear lead in the polls.
    Reform disappointed with the dearth of defections.

    By general election: Reform to come second or third in votes and seats.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,199
    Cookie said:

    It beggars belief that a PM who won a million seat majority only a year and a half ago is not expected to be able to last another twelve months - not because of any particular scandal (there have been a few but none really devastating) but because of general ineptitude and the ambivalence of his voters. It's an astonishing turnaround.

    In a bit more detail. It beggars belief that there wasn't a plan, there was no story to tell, no attempt at decent communications, no vision.

  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 5,624
    Scott_xP said:

    @atrupar

    Trump: "You gotta win the midterms. Because if we don't win the midterms, they'll find a reason to impeach me. I'll get impeached."

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/2008577291207504057?s=20

    'You gotta win the midterms', 'we gotta have Greenland'?

    Does anyone think these elections are actually going to run smoothly?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 38,978
    algarkirk said:

    By the end of 2026: Starmer and Badenoch still in place.
    Reform no longer in a clear lead in the polls.
    Reform disappointed with the dearth of defections.

    By general election: Reform to come second or third in votes and seats.

    All this post tells me is that you don't like Reform very much, (nothing personal).
  • TazTaz Posts: 23,810
    Scott_xP said:

    @atrupar

    Trump: "You gotta win the midterms. Because if we don't win the midterms, they'll find a reason to impeach me. I'll get impeached."

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/2008577291207504057?s=20

    🤞🤞🤞🤞
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,714
    I give Starmer a strong chance of surviving this year but far less chance of leading into the election. The value exit bets are 27/28 imo.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 57,009
    kinabalu said:

    I give Starmer a strong chance of surviving this year but far less chance of leading into the election. The value exit bets are 27/28 imo.

    Do you really think Labour will subject us to another year or two of Starmer? Surely it’s against the Geneva convention.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,167

    Scott_xP said:

    @atrupar

    Trump: "You gotta win the midterms. Because if we don't win the midterms, they'll find a reason to impeach me. I'll get impeached."

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/2008577291207504057?s=20

    'You gotta win the midterms', 'we gotta have Greenland'?

    Does anyone think these elections are actually going to run smoothly?
    They'll run very smoothly. The smoothest elections in the history of America.

    Russian elections run very smoothly, too.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,751
    The other thing about Starmer's 2024GE mandate that people overlook is how bad an election campaign he had. Before Sunak called the election Labour were standing on an average of about 45% in the polls. At the end of the campaign it was an average of 39% and still trending down. On a like-for-like comparison he lost 6pp of support.

    Theresa May lost less than 5pp of support during the 2017GE campaign, and hey campaign is considered a byword for how to lose support during an election campaign.

    It's amazing really, but how many people realise that Starmer's Ming Vase strategy actually lost more support than May's Dementia Tax?

    The difference is that it was Reform who benefited at GE2024, and so Labour still won by a wide margin - the equivalent would have been the Greens surging at GE2017 and May still winning a landslide majority.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,916

    Cookie said:

    It beggars belief that a PM who won a million seat majority only a year and a half ago is not expected to be able to last another twelve months - not because of any particular scandal (there have been a few but none really devastating) but because of general ineptitude and the ambivalence of his voters. It's an astonishing turnaround.

    The problem with having support a mile wide but a nanometre deep.
    More what he did with the majority.

    If the first budget had been better thought out, and more Labour friendly, he wouldn’t have trashed his core vote support for a start.

    Imagine

    1) merging employee NI and IT over the parliament. Save on admin!
    2) while reworking the rates for this, a few more quid from the higher rate payers. But get rid of the silly cliffs.
    3) So more tax receipts - while keeping tax pretty much the same for existing payers.
    4) All old age benefits (including WFP) go in a blender. Come out means tested/taxed to benefit the poorer pensioners *more* than the existing arrangements.
    5) Have a special IT rate for basic rate pensioners, so the NI change only hits on income above 50k.

    The markets would have liked this. No rebellions in the Labour Party.

    And proceed from there.
    That would have been fab. Even I might have considered voting for him if he had presented that set of economic policies.

    The NI/IT one really is a no brainer for me (even though I would end up paying more). Since far more people pay IT than pay NI, you could even reduce the overall rate a bit and still be making more money for the exchequer. Add in a system for properly taxing Multinational companies and you could radically improve the UK finances whilst making the whole thing both fairer and simpler.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 41,450
    @DeItaone
    SUPREME COURT TO ISSUE RULINGS ON TARIFFS FRIDAY

    The U.S. Supreme Court has set Friday as an opinion day, potentially marking its first ruling on President Trump’s global tariffs. Justices return from a four-week break, with decisions released at 10:00 A.M. ET. A tariff determination is considered likely.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,740

    Trump ranting about mail-in ballots yet again.

    He has a point.

    Pretty much everything to do with US elections is a disgrace.
  • FossFoss Posts: 2,196

    Trump ranting about mail-in ballots yet again.

    He has a point.

    Pretty much everything to do with US elections is a disgrace.
    The inability to count votes in a timely manner seems almost designed to encourage whichever side lost to engage in paranoid fantasies of theft.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 89,325
    edited January 6
    Sandpit said:

    West Midlands police story gets worse.

    https://x.com/nj_timothy/status/2008534253328625912

    Chief Constable is likely toast now, well done to Nick Timothy MP for the campaign.

    Part of their "evidence" included a match incident that never took place. They claim they googled it, but I bet they used ChatGPT and copy / pasta-ed it.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,958
    algarkirk said:

    Cookie said:

    It beggars belief that a PM who won a million seat majority only a year and a half ago is not expected to be able to last another twelve months - not because of any particular scandal (there have been a few but none really devastating) but because of general ineptitude and the ambivalence of his voters. It's an astonishing turnaround.

    In a bit more detail. It beggars belief that there wasn't a plan, there was no story to tell, no attempt at decent communications, no vision.

    I thought this was a post about the attacks on Venezuela!
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,958
    Foss said:

    Trump ranting about mail-in ballots yet again.

    He has a point.

    Pretty much everything to do with US elections is a disgrace.
    The inability to count votes in a timely manner seems almost designed to encourage whichever side lost to engage in paranoid fantasies of theft.
    Part of the problem there is that they’re voting on so many positions at once.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,916

    Scott_xP said:

    @atrupar

    Trump: "You gotta win the midterms. Because if we don't win the midterms, they'll find a reason to impeach me. I'll get impeached."

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/2008577291207504057?s=20

    'You gotta win the midterms', 'we gotta have Greenland'?

    Does anyone think these elections are actually going to run smoothly?
    They'll run very smoothly. The smoothest elections in the history of America.

    Russian elections run very smoothly, too.
    "You won't believe how smoothly they run. They are the smoothest run elections in history. No one can run elections like President Putin. Apart from me of course. No one can run elections as smoothly as I do"
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,103

    Scott_xP said:

    @atrupar

    Trump: "You gotta win the midterms. Because if we don't win the midterms, they'll find a reason to impeach me. I'll get impeached."

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/2008577291207504057?s=20

    'You gotta win the midterms', 'we gotta have Greenland'?

    Does anyone think these elections are actually going to run smoothly?
    They'll run very smoothly. The smoothest elections in the history of America.

    Russian elections run very smoothly, too.
    Not a patch how smoothly the Venezuelan elections delivered a majority...
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,740
    Foss said:

    Trump ranting about mail-in ballots yet again.

    He has a point.

    Pretty much everything to do with US elections is a disgrace.
    The inability to count votes in a timely manner seems almost designed to encourage whichever side lost to engage in paranoid fantasies of theft.
    And to enrich lawyers.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,714

    kinabalu said:

    I give Starmer a strong chance of surviving this year but far less chance of leading into the election. The value exit bets are 27/28 imo.

    Do you really think Labour will subject us to another year or two of Starmer? Surely it’s against the Geneva convention.
    We'll see. But you might have to swallow your lumps yes.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,731

    Cookie said:

    It beggars belief that a PM who won a million seat majority only a year and a half ago is not expected to be able to last another twelve months - not because of any particular scandal (there have been a few but none really devastating) but because of general ineptitude and the ambivalence of his voters. It's an astonishing turnaround.

    It's not really that surprising. He only received just over one-third of the vote, a really risible share of the vote, only 1.6pp higher than Corbyn received at the disastrous 2019GE, or 1pp higher than Howard received at the 2005GE, or 1pp *lower* share of the vote than Kinnock received at the 1992GE.

    So Starmer started off less popular than some oppositions, and yet was handed a huge landslide - upsetting the British sense of fair play - and didn't really have any idea how to talk to his supporters, yet alone the voters who voted for other parties.

    We should anticipate the next government having even more serious problems in this regard. The hat time any party received a greater share of the vote on an opinion poll, than Labour received at the 2024GE, was more than three months ago, at the beginning of October, and it's only happened a handful of times this Parliament thus far. Therefore we can anticipate that the PM after the next GE will have an even narrower base of support - regardless of how many MPs the increasingly absurd FPTP system gives them - and so have even greater difficulties maintaining public support.
    We should all be talking about the urgent need for electoral reform. But aren’t.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,103
    Scott_xP said:

    @atrupar

    Trump: "You gotta win the midterms. Because if we don't win the midterms, they'll find a reason to impeach me. I'll get impeached."

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/2008577291207504057?s=20

    Waaaambulance for Donald...
  • TazTaz Posts: 23,810
    Iranian Police in Ilam have joined the protests according to this

    https://x.com/tousitvofficial/status/2008575890612191595?s=61
  • FossFoss Posts: 2,196

    Foss said:

    Trump ranting about mail-in ballots yet again.

    He has a point.

    Pretty much everything to do with US elections is a disgrace.
    The inability to count votes in a timely manner seems almost designed to encourage whichever side lost to engage in paranoid fantasies of theft.
    And to enrich lawyers.
    They must have their tithe.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,103
    Think I've spotted why Trump wants Greenland so badly: it has a Disko Bay.

    Althogether now:

    "Young man, there's no need to feel down, I said
    Young man, pick yourself off the ground...."
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,393
    edited January 6
    Totally and utterly o/t ladies and gentlemen, but does anyone know how a 19th farm-worker in Leicestershire who have asked his friend what the matter was. In Essex and East Anglia it would have been 'what's to do, bor', but what would it have been a bit further North-West.
    It's for a short story I'm writing.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,731
    Re. Venezuela, this week is equivalent to the days when the statue of Saddam was torn down in Baghdad, to the cheers of the happy crowd, with Bush hubristically proclaiming ‘job done’. What happened thereafter is a lesson that Trump either hasn’t learned or thinks he can dodge.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 57,009
    IanB2 said:

    Re. Venezuela, this week is equivalent to the days when the statue of Saddam was torn down in Baghdad, to the cheers of the happy crowd, with Bush hubristically proclaiming ‘job done’. What happened thereafter is a lesson that Trump either hasn’t learned or thinks he can dodge.

    Based on that comparison, Trump is already well ahead. The statue was torn down on April 9, 2003 but Saddam Hussein wasn't captured until December 13.

    At some point his critics will have to accept that he's been vindicated on many of the big questions of our time.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,103

    IanB2 said:

    Re. Venezuela, this week is equivalent to the days when the statue of Saddam was torn down in Baghdad, to the cheers of the happy crowd, with Bush hubristically proclaiming ‘job done’. What happened thereafter is a lesson that Trump either hasn’t learned or thinks he can dodge.

    Based on that comparison, Trump is already well ahead. The statue was torn down on April 9, 2003 but Saddam Hussein wasn't captured until December 13.

    At some point his critics will have to accept that he's been vindicated on many of the big questions of our time.
    Still waiting for him to buy into Putin being the biggest **** of our times though...
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,756
    edited January 6
    Sandpit said:

    West Midlands police story gets worse.

    https://x.com/nj_timothy/status/2008534253328625912

    Chief Constable is likely toast now, well done to Nick Timothy MP for the campaign.

    Is it known that he's a vice chairman of Conservative 'Friends of Israel'? I would imagine most whatever their ethnic background will side with the Chief Constable
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,050
    Starmer is like an Iain Duncan Smith who accidentally got elected.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,050
    Starmer is like an Iain Duncan Smith who accidentally got elected.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,751
    IanB2 said:

    Re. Venezuela, this week is equivalent to the days when the statue of Saddam was torn down in Baghdad, to the cheers of the happy crowd, with Bush hubristically proclaiming ‘job done’. What happened thereafter is a lesson that Trump either hasn’t learned or thinks he can dodge.

    Not really.

    One of the big immediate problems in Iraq 2003 was that the invading forces created a huge power vacuum by telling all the police, etc, that the police force was simply abolished.

    In Venezuela the state is still operating. The vice President has taken over, there's no power vacuum.

    It's almost precisely the opposite of Iraq 2003. There are genuinely no US tanks in Caracas.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,751

    Starmer is like an Iain Duncan Smith who accidentally got elected.

    You're expecting him to get re-elected in 2029 then?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,770

    Cookie said:

    It beggars belief that a PM who won a million seat majority only a year and a half ago is not expected to be able to last another twelve months - not because of any particular scandal (there have been a few but none really devastating) but because of general ineptitude and the ambivalence of his voters. It's an astonishing turnaround.

    The problem with having support a mile wide but a nanometre deep.
    More what he did with the majority.

    If the first budget had been better thought out, and more Labour friendly, he wouldn’t have trashed his core vote support for a start.

    Imagine

    1) merging employee NI and IT over the parliament. Save on admin!
    2) while reworking the rates for this, a few more quid from the higher rate payers. But get rid of the silly cliffs.
    3) So more tax receipts - while keeping tax pretty much the same for existing payers.
    4) All old age benefits (including WFP) go in a blender. Come out means tested/taxed to benefit the poorer pensioners *more* than the existing arrangements.
    5) Have a special IT rate for basic rate pensioners, so the NI change only hits on income above 50k.

    The markets would have liked this. No rebellions in the Labour Party.

    And proceed from there.
    That would have been fab. Even I might have considered voting for him if he had presented that set of economic policies.

    The NI/IT one really is a no brainer for me (even though I would end up paying more). Since far more people pay IT than pay NI, you could even reduce the overall rate a bit and still be making more money for the exchequer. Add in a system for properly taxing Multinational companies and you could radically improve the UK finances whilst making the whole thing both fairer and simpler.
    Indeed.

    The pitch to Labour MPs - “Raise more money. eliminate loopholes. Equalise taxation between those who work and those who don’t. More money for poor pensioners. Oh, and cheaper to collect.”
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 5,624

    Cookie said:

    It beggars belief that a PM who won a million seat majority only a year and a half ago is not expected to be able to last another twelve months - not because of any particular scandal (there have been a few but none really devastating) but because of general ineptitude and the ambivalence of his voters. It's an astonishing turnaround.

    The problem with having support a mile wide but a nanometre deep.
    More what he did with the majority.

    If the first budget had been better thought out, and more Labour friendly, he wouldn’t have trashed his core vote support for a start.

    Imagine

    1) merging employee NI and IT over the parliament. Save on admin!
    2) while reworking the rates for this, a few more quid from the higher rate payers. But get rid of the silly cliffs.
    3) So more tax receipts - while keeping tax pretty much the same for existing payers.
    4) All old age benefits (including WFP) go in a blender. Come out means tested/taxed to benefit the poorer pensioners *more* than the existing arrangements.
    5) Have a special IT rate for basic rate pensioners, so the NI change only hits on income above 50k.

    The markets would have liked this. No rebellions in the Labour Party.

    And proceed from there.
    That would have been fab. Even I might have considered voting for him if he had presented that set of economic policies.

    The NI/IT one really is a no brainer for me (even though I would end up paying more). Since far more people pay IT than pay NI, you could even reduce the overall rate a bit and still be making more money for the exchequer. Add in a system for properly taxing Multinational companies and you could radically improve the UK finances whilst making the whole thing both fairer and simpler.
    Indeed.

    The pitch to Labour MPs - “Raise more money. eliminate loopholes. Equalise taxation between those who work and those who don’t. More money for poor pensioners. Oh, and cheaper to collect.”
    But how do you get it past The Blob?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,167

    Starmer is like an Iain Duncan Smith who accidentally got elected.

    Second half is fair enough. First bit... not so sure.

    IDS was fanservice for the Conservatives after the trauma of making almost no progress in 2001, nothing more.

    Starmer's job in 2020 was similar to Kinnock in 1983 or Howard in 2003; cleaning up the internal mess left by his predecessor. It's an honourable role in politics, even when it doesn't lead to Downing Street. Would Howard have been any good as PM if he had somehow won in 2005? I doubt it.

    That Starmer is PM isn't quite an accident, either. Calling the multiple calamaties of 2019-24 an accident is far too generous to the Conservative Party.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,912
    The End of Keir Show? Seems more like Labour are all at sea, shorely.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 12,134

    IanB2 said:

    Re. Venezuela, this week is equivalent to the days when the statue of Saddam was torn down in Baghdad, to the cheers of the happy crowd, with Bush hubristically proclaiming ‘job done’. What happened thereafter is a lesson that Trump either hasn’t learned or thinks he can dodge.

    Not really.

    One of the big immediate problems in Iraq 2003 was that the invading forces created a huge power vacuum by telling all the police, etc, that the police force was simply abolished.

    In Venezuela the state is still operating. The vice President has taken over, there's no power vacuum.

    It's almost precisely the opposite of Iraq 2003. There are genuinely no US tanks in Caracas.
    So it's really more like what would have happened in Iraq if there had been carbon copy of Saddam - only pro-American - in the wings, ready to continue the dictatorship?

    The funny thing is, though, that for some reason pro-American dictatorships aren't necessarily any more popular than the other kinds.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,912

    Starmer is like an Iain Duncan Smith who accidentally got elected.

    Second half is fair enough. First bit... not so sure.

    IDS was fanservice for the Conservatives after the trauma of making almost no progress in 2001, nothing more.

    Starmer's job in 2020 was similar to Kinnock in 1983 or Howard in 2003; cleaning up the internal mess left by his predecessor. It's an honourable role in politics, even when it doesn't lead to Downing Street. Would Howard have been any good as PM if he had somehow won in 2005? I doubt it.

    That Starmer is PM isn't quite an accident, either. Calling the multiple calamaties of 2019-24 an accident is far too generous to the Conservative Party.
    Howard was a vastly experienced and in most cases highly effective cabinet minister, and he was extremely bright. While he was knocking on a bit, I think he would have been a better PM than most others before or since.

    His big weaknesses were a May-style tendency to control everything and a vicious streak a foot wide that meant he made everything personal. But he could conceivably have overcome those.
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,389

    IanB2 said:

    Re. Venezuela, this week is equivalent to the days when the statue of Saddam was torn down in Baghdad, to the cheers of the happy crowd, with Bush hubristically proclaiming ‘job done’. What happened thereafter is a lesson that Trump either hasn’t learned or thinks he can dodge.

    Not really.

    One of the big immediate problems in Iraq 2003 was that the invading forces created a huge power vacuum by telling all the police, etc, that the police force was simply abolished.

    In Venezuela the state is still operating. The vice President has taken over, there's no power vacuum.

    It's almost precisely the opposite of Iraq 2003. There are genuinely no US tanks in Caracas.
    I think the thing that is quite similar is what Ezra Klein outlined (as theory for Venezuela, backed by reporting on Iraq) on a recent podcast: that the initial military action happened because various different White House factions happened to all agree on it, but for their own reasons, none of which were individually going to be enough to drive the action on their own. So the aftermath is confused and unplanned, because although the various factions happened to agree on the initial action, they don't collectively agree on why it was done and thus on what the next steps should be. Luckily for them, the stakes are lower this time around (at least for them, if not for Venezuela).
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 57,009
    Trump's performance on stage should dispel any rumours about his health:

    https://x.com/RapidResponse47/status/2008565918948094358
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,751
    Chris said:

    IanB2 said:

    Re. Venezuela, this week is equivalent to the days when the statue of Saddam was torn down in Baghdad, to the cheers of the happy crowd, with Bush hubristically proclaiming ‘job done’. What happened thereafter is a lesson that Trump either hasn’t learned or thinks he can dodge.

    Not really.

    One of the big immediate problems in Iraq 2003 was that the invading forces created a huge power vacuum by telling all the police, etc, that the police force was simply abolished.

    In Venezuela the state is still operating. The vice President has taken over, there's no power vacuum.

    It's almost precisely the opposite of Iraq 2003. There are genuinely no US tanks in Caracas.
    So it's really more like what would have happened in Iraq if there had been carbon copy of Saddam - only pro-American - in the wings, ready to continue the dictatorship?

    The funny thing is, though, that for some reason pro-American dictatorships aren't necessarily any more popular than the other kinds.
    Well, we don't know what's going to happen in Venezuela in the weeks and months ahead. Their future dictatorship may not be all that pro-American.

    I reckon it's going to be different to the way Iraq 2003 played out though, and it's hard to say whether it will be better or worse.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 125,519

    Foss said:

    Trump ranting about mail-in ballots yet again.

    He has a point.

    Pretty much everything to do with US elections is a disgrace.
    The inability to count votes in a timely manner seems almost designed to encourage whichever side lost to engage in paranoid fantasies of theft.
    And to enrich lawyers.
    You make that sound like a bad thing.

    #BestOfHumanity
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 6,492

    IanB2 said:

    Re. Venezuela, this week is equivalent to the days when the statue of Saddam was torn down in Baghdad, to the cheers of the happy crowd, with Bush hubristically proclaiming ‘job done’. What happened thereafter is a lesson that Trump either hasn’t learned or thinks he can dodge.

    Based on that comparison, Trump is already well ahead. The statue was torn down on April 9, 2003 but Saddam Hussein wasn't captured until December 13.

    At some point his critics will have to accept that he's been vindicated on many of the big questions of our time.
    I look at the last few days and conclude the Americans have indeed learnt the lessons of Iraq. Don’t get bogged down in a futile attempt to embed democracy. Don’t sack the ~million people who keep the country going. And find a bar-steward who will agree to be your bar-steward.

    Fascinating to see the confident projection of American power after 20 years. It’s got a 70s / 80s realpolitik theme with a sprinkling of Trump theatrics, rather than the zeal of the neocons.

    Would now be something of a surprise if we don’t see similar in Cuba and Iran in 2026. Will it work in its primary goal (deterring a chinese move on Taiwan)? I have no idea.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,827
    On thread.

    I agree with VOTERS, including Labour VOTERS.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 57,009
    pm215 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Re. Venezuela, this week is equivalent to the days when the statue of Saddam was torn down in Baghdad, to the cheers of the happy crowd, with Bush hubristically proclaiming ‘job done’. What happened thereafter is a lesson that Trump either hasn’t learned or thinks he can dodge.

    Not really.

    One of the big immediate problems in Iraq 2003 was that the invading forces created a huge power vacuum by telling all the police, etc, that the police force was simply abolished.

    In Venezuela the state is still operating. The vice President has taken over, there's no power vacuum.

    It's almost precisely the opposite of Iraq 2003. There are genuinely no US tanks in Caracas.
    I think the thing that is quite similar is what Ezra Klein outlined (as theory for Venezuela, backed by reporting on Iraq) on a recent podcast: that the initial military action happened because various different White House factions happened to all agree on it, but for their own reasons, none of which were individually going to be enough to drive the action on their own. So the aftermath is confused and unplanned, because although the various factions happened to agree on the initial action, they don't collectively agree on why it was done and thus on what the next steps should be. Luckily for them, the stakes are lower this time around (at least for them, if not for Venezuela).
    It's not luck but superior strategy. They're not handicapped by Colin Powell's pottery barn rule and so can afford to keep their options open and see what happens.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,751
    pm215 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Re. Venezuela, this week is equivalent to the days when the statue of Saddam was torn down in Baghdad, to the cheers of the happy crowd, with Bush hubristically proclaiming ‘job done’. What happened thereafter is a lesson that Trump either hasn’t learned or thinks he can dodge.

    Not really.

    One of the big immediate problems in Iraq 2003 was that the invading forces created a huge power vacuum by telling all the police, etc, that the police force was simply abolished.

    In Venezuela the state is still operating. The vice President has taken over, there's no power vacuum.

    It's almost precisely the opposite of Iraq 2003. There are genuinely no US tanks in Caracas.
    I think the thing that is quite similar is what Ezra Klein outlined (as theory for Venezuela, backed by reporting on Iraq) on a recent podcast: that the initial military action happened because various different White House factions happened to all agree on it, but for their own reasons, none of which were individually going to be enough to drive the action on their own. So the aftermath is confused and unplanned, because although the various factions happened to agree on the initial action, they don't collectively agree on why it was done and thus on what the next steps should be. Luckily for them, the stakes are lower this time around (at least for them, if not for Venezuela).
    Yes, that is a fair parallel.

    The big difference is that US troops aren't occupying Venezuela - a lot of people seem to be acting as though they are - and so a lack of a plan is most likely to lead to paralysis and inaction. In Iraq 2003 the fact of the occupation meant that they were forced by circumstance to do something. And then something else. And so on.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,731

    IanB2 said:

    Re. Venezuela, this week is equivalent to the days when the statue of Saddam was torn down in Baghdad, to the cheers of the happy crowd, with Bush hubristically proclaiming ‘job done’. What happened thereafter is a lesson that Trump either hasn’t learned or thinks he can dodge.

    Not really.

    One of the big immediate problems in Iraq 2003 was that the invading forces created a huge power vacuum by telling all the police, etc, that the police force was simply abolished.

    In Venezuela the state is still operating. The vice President has taken over, there's no power vacuum.

    It's almost precisely the opposite of Iraq 2003. There are genuinely no US tanks in Caracas.
    Stand back, however, and the uncertainty over how this will actually pan out is similar, and may not necessarily play out to the mango Mussolini’s advantage
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,912

    Trump's performance on stage should dispel any rumours about his health:

    https://x.com/RapidResponse47/status/2008565918948094358

    Indeed.

    They are definitely no longer just rumours.

    Funny how he does that thing with his hands when he calls his wife a 'classy lady.' Divorce incoming?
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 2,083

    Sandpit said:

    West Midlands police story gets worse.

    https://x.com/nj_timothy/status/2008534253328625912

    Chief Constable is likely toast now, well done to Nick Timothy MP for the campaign.

    The idea that West Midlands Police is full of wrong uns will ring bells with those who recall the West Midlands Serious Crime Squad...

    Seriously it was clear at the time that the decision was hokey. They have behaved appallingly over this.
    Must be a different Maccabi Tel Aviv whose fans have just won a suspended ban from UEFA for racist chants at their away game in Stuttgart.
    At least they've won something...
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,751
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Re. Venezuela, this week is equivalent to the days when the statue of Saddam was torn down in Baghdad, to the cheers of the happy crowd, with Bush hubristically proclaiming ‘job done’. What happened thereafter is a lesson that Trump either hasn’t learned or thinks he can dodge.

    Not really.

    One of the big immediate problems in Iraq 2003 was that the invading forces created a huge power vacuum by telling all the police, etc, that the police force was simply abolished.

    In Venezuela the state is still operating. The vice President has taken over, there's no power vacuum.

    It's almost precisely the opposite of Iraq 2003. There are genuinely no US tanks in Caracas.
    Stand back, however, and the uncertainty over how this will actually pan out is similar, and may not necessarily play out to the mango Mussolini’s advantage
    Sure. I'm not saying that it is well-conceived, or that it will turn out to be a success, or anything like that.

    I just don't think that there's a parallel with Iraq 2003.

    There's a whole bunch of different ways in which it can go wrong.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 3,395
    ydoethur said:

    Starmer is like an Iain Duncan Smith who accidentally got elected.

    Second half is fair enough. First bit... not so sure.

    IDS was fanservice for the Conservatives after the trauma of making almost no progress in 2001, nothing more.

    Starmer's job in 2020 was similar to Kinnock in 1983 or Howard in 2003; cleaning up the internal mess left by his predecessor. It's an honourable role in politics, even when it doesn't lead to Downing Street. Would Howard have been any good as PM if he had somehow won in 2005? I doubt it.

    That Starmer is PM isn't quite an accident, either. Calling the multiple calamaties of 2019-24 an accident is far too generous to the Conservative Party.
    Howard was a vastly experienced and in most cases highly effective cabinet minister, and he was extremely bright. While he was knocking on a bit, I think he would have been a better PM than most others before or since.

    His big weaknesses were a May-style tendency to control everything and a vicious streak a foot wide that meant he made everything personal. But he could conceivably have overcome those.
    There was, according to Ann Widdecombe, "something of the night" about him. That comment sunk his original leadership bid, and caused William Hague to strike out, with fateful consequences.

    I thought he was a consummate professional, and an effective debater as Shadow Chancellor, which is what got him the nod after IDS was defenestrated. But always a transitional figure who held the fort and got the Tories through the 2005 election with a better-than-expected result. Apparently Blair was expecting another 100plus majority.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,731

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Re. Venezuela, this week is equivalent to the days when the statue of Saddam was torn down in Baghdad, to the cheers of the happy crowd, with Bush hubristically proclaiming ‘job done’. What happened thereafter is a lesson that Trump either hasn’t learned or thinks he can dodge.

    Not really.

    One of the big immediate problems in Iraq 2003 was that the invading forces created a huge power vacuum by telling all the police, etc, that the police force was simply abolished.

    In Venezuela the state is still operating. The vice President has taken over, there's no power vacuum.

    It's almost precisely the opposite of Iraq 2003. There are genuinely no US tanks in Caracas.
    Stand back, however, and the uncertainty over how this will actually pan out is similar, and may not necessarily play out to the mango Mussolini’s advantage
    I just don't think that there's a parallel with Iraq 2003.

    There's a whole bunch of different ways in which it can go wrong.
    Just like Iraq 2003….
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,382
    ydoethur said:

    Trump's performance on stage should dispel any rumours about his health:

    https://x.com/RapidResponse47/status/2008565918948094358

    Indeed.

    They are definitely no longer just rumours.

    Funny how he does that thing with his hands when he calls his wife a 'classy lady.' Divorce incoming?
    I think he is telling us what a big cock he is.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,043

    Trump ranting about mail-in ballots yet again.

    He has a point.

    Pretty much everything to do with US elections is a disgrace.
    He has no point at all.
    He's trying to corrupt them further.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,912

    ydoethur said:

    Trump's performance on stage should dispel any rumours about his health:

    https://x.com/RapidResponse47/status/2008565918948094358

    Indeed.

    They are definitely no longer just rumours.

    Funny how he does that thing with his hands when he calls his wife a 'classy lady.' Divorce incoming?
    I think he is telling us what a big cock he is.
    He is an obnoxious, giant dictator.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,043

    Trump's performance on stage should dispel any rumours about his health:

    https://x.com/RapidResponse47/status/2008565918948094358

    What, that he's medicated up to the eyeballs ?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 57,009
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Re. Venezuela, this week is equivalent to the days when the statue of Saddam was torn down in Baghdad, to the cheers of the happy crowd, with Bush hubristically proclaiming ‘job done’. What happened thereafter is a lesson that Trump either hasn’t learned or thinks he can dodge.

    Not really.

    One of the big immediate problems in Iraq 2003 was that the invading forces created a huge power vacuum by telling all the police, etc, that the police force was simply abolished.

    In Venezuela the state is still operating. The vice President has taken over, there's no power vacuum.

    It's almost precisely the opposite of Iraq 2003. There are genuinely no US tanks in Caracas.
    Stand back, however, and the uncertainty over how this will actually pan out is similar, and may not necessarily play out to the mango Mussolini’s advantage
    I just don't think that there's a parallel with Iraq 2003.

    There's a whole bunch of different ways in which it can go wrong.
    Just like Iraq 2003….
    So how many US casualties are you expecting?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,770

    Cookie said:

    It beggars belief that a PM who won a million seat majority only a year and a half ago is not expected to be able to last another twelve months - not because of any particular scandal (there have been a few but none really devastating) but because of general ineptitude and the ambivalence of his voters. It's an astonishing turnaround.

    The problem with having support a mile wide but a nanometre deep.
    More what he did with the majority.

    If the first budget had been better thought out, and more Labour friendly, he wouldn’t have trashed his core vote support for a start.

    Imagine

    1) merging employee NI and IT over the parliament. Save on admin!
    2) while reworking the rates for this, a few more quid from the higher rate payers. But get rid of the silly cliffs.
    3) So more tax receipts - while keeping tax pretty much the same for existing payers.
    4) All old age benefits (including WFP) go in a blender. Come out means tested/taxed to benefit the poorer pensioners *more* than the existing arrangements.
    5) Have a special IT rate for basic rate pensioners, so the NI change only hits on income above 50k.

    The markets would have liked this. No rebellions in the Labour Party.

    And proceed from there.
    That would have been fab. Even I might have considered voting for him if he had presented that set of economic policies.

    The NI/IT one really is a no brainer for me (even though I would end up paying more). Since far more people pay IT than pay NI, you could even reduce the overall rate a bit and still be making more money for the exchequer. Add in a system for properly taxing Multinational companies and you could radically improve the UK finances whilst making the whole thing both fairer and simpler.
    Indeed.

    The pitch to Labour MPs - “Raise more money. eliminate loopholes. Equalise taxation between those who work and those who don’t. More money for poor pensioners. Oh, and cheaper to collect.”
    But how do you get it past The Blob?
    A big but simple policy, pushed by the Chancellor and the PM? That’s very hard to stop
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,740
    Nigelb said:

    Trump ranting about mail-in ballots yet again.

    He has a point.

    Pretty much everything to do with US elections is a disgrace.
    He has no point at all.
    He's trying to corrupt them further.
    So much like the rest of the US political establishment.
  • TazTaz Posts: 23,810
    Labour preparing for losing.

    Pivoting to protect incumbents under the inspirational, motivational, cerbreal Lucy Powell.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/jan/06/labour-election-strategy-protect-mp-over-winning-seats-deputy-pm
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 5,624
    Nigelb said:

    Trump's performance on stage should dispel any rumours about his health:

    https://x.com/RapidResponse47/status/2008565918948094358

    What, that he's medicated up to the eyeballs ?
    Higher than that...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,731

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Re. Venezuela, this week is equivalent to the days when the statue of Saddam was torn down in Baghdad, to the cheers of the happy crowd, with Bush hubristically proclaiming ‘job done’. What happened thereafter is a lesson that Trump either hasn’t learned or thinks he can dodge.

    Not really.

    One of the big immediate problems in Iraq 2003 was that the invading forces created a huge power vacuum by telling all the police, etc, that the police force was simply abolished.

    In Venezuela the state is still operating. The vice President has taken over, there's no power vacuum.

    It's almost precisely the opposite of Iraq 2003. There are genuinely no US tanks in Caracas.
    Stand back, however, and the uncertainty over how this will actually pan out is similar, and may not necessarily play out to the mango Mussolini’s advantage
    I just don't think that there's a parallel with Iraq 2003.

    There's a whole bunch of different ways in which it can go wrong.
    Just like Iraq 2003….
    So how many US casualties are you expecting?
    I’d settle for just the one
  • MelonBMelonB Posts: 16,642

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Re. Venezuela, this week is equivalent to the days when the statue of Saddam was torn down in Baghdad, to the cheers of the happy crowd, with Bush hubristically proclaiming ‘job done’. What happened thereafter is a lesson that Trump either hasn’t learned or thinks he can dodge.

    Not really.

    One of the big immediate problems in Iraq 2003 was that the invading forces created a huge power vacuum by telling all the police, etc, that the police force was simply abolished.

    In Venezuela the state is still operating. The vice President has taken over, there's no power vacuum.

    It's almost precisely the opposite of Iraq 2003. There are genuinely no US tanks in Caracas.
    Stand back, however, and the uncertainty over how this will actually pan out is similar, and may not necessarily play out to the mango Mussolini’s advantage
    Sure. I'm not saying that it is well-conceived, or that it will turn out to be a success, or anything like that.

    I just don't think that there's a parallel with Iraq 2003.

    There's a whole bunch of different ways in which it can go wrong.
    It really isn’t like Iraq 2003. It’s not like Libya either. It’s more like the sort of US-backed coups they used to indulge in on the South American continent, the Caribbean and Central America during the Cold War. Some of those “worked”, some didn’t. But even those are not precise analogues.

    Rather than reaching for parallels and pattern matching, better to look at the evidence in front of us. A very well executed decapitation; a rather muddled plan for the aftermath.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,677
    algarkirk said:

    By the end of 2026: Starmer and Badenoch still in place.
    Reform no longer in a clear lead in the polls.
    Reform disappointed with the dearth of defections.

    By general election: Reform to come second or third in votes and seats.

    Then Algakirk wakes up.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,866
    moonshine said:

    IanB2 said:

    Re. Venezuela, this week is equivalent to the days when the statue of Saddam was torn down in Baghdad, to the cheers of the happy crowd, with Bush hubristically proclaiming ‘job done’. What happened thereafter is a lesson that Trump either hasn’t learned or thinks he can dodge.

    Based on that comparison, Trump is already well ahead. The statue was torn down on April 9, 2003 but Saddam Hussein wasn't captured until December 13.

    At some point his critics will have to accept that he's been vindicated on many of the big questions of our time.
    I look at the last few days and conclude the Americans have indeed learnt the lessons of Iraq. Don’t get bogged down in a futile attempt to embed democracy. Don’t sack the ~million people who keep the country going. And find a bar-steward who will agree to be your bar-steward.

    Fascinating to see the confident projection of American power after 20 years. It’s got a 70s / 80s realpolitik theme with a sprinkling of Trump theatrics, rather than the zeal of the neocons.

    Would now be something of a surprise if we don’t see similar in Cuba and Iran in 2026. Will it work in its primary goal (deterring a chinese move on Taiwan)? I have no idea.
    A raid is probably better for both the USA than Venezuela than an occupation but it's hard to see how the US benefits from it. The same people minus one are in power, which they are consolidating regardless of the US. Venezuelans will now have a defined enemy, the United States. Apart from Machado's group no-one gains from the American raids and Machado's followers have effectively been abandoned to their fate. America can raid again but presumably more difficult this time if the Venezuelans are better prepared. Chinese influence is likely to be increased not reduced as the Venezuelan government looks to other countries that could provide an element of protection.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,714
    moonshine said:

    IanB2 said:

    Re. Venezuela, this week is equivalent to the days when the statue of Saddam was torn down in Baghdad, to the cheers of the happy crowd, with Bush hubristically proclaiming ‘job done’. What happened thereafter is a lesson that Trump either hasn’t learned or thinks he can dodge.

    Based on that comparison, Trump is already well ahead. The statue was torn down on April 9, 2003 but Saddam Hussein wasn't captured until December 13.

    At some point his critics will have to accept that he's been vindicated on many of the big questions of our time.
    I look at the last few days and conclude the Americans have indeed learnt the lessons of Iraq. Don’t get bogged down in a futile attempt to embed democracy. Don’t sack the ~million people who keep the country going. And find a bar-steward who will agree to be your bar-steward.

    Fascinating to see the confident projection of American power after 20 years. It’s got a 70s / 80s realpolitik theme with a sprinkling of Trump theatrics, rather than the zeal of the neocons.

    Would now be something of a surprise if we don’t see similar in Cuba and Iran in 2026. Will it work in its primary goal (deterring a chinese move on Taiwan)? I have no idea.
    Ye of little faith. Of course it will work. How can China even contemplate attacking Taiwan when this rejuvenated America has shown both the willingness and capability to abduct the president of Venezuela?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,716

    algarkirk said:

    By the end of 2026: Starmer and Badenoch still in place.
    Reform no longer in a clear lead in the polls.
    Reform disappointed with the dearth of defections.

    By general election: Reform to come second or third in votes and seats.

    Then Algakirk wakes up.
    I am not convinced Reform will maintain their lead all the way to the next GE, but guessing GE29 is impossible with so much chaos and uncertainty
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 57,009
    Ecoterrorism

    https://x.com/shashj/status/2008579181156987323

    Incredible how little attention this is getting outside Germany. "In its third full day, a ... power failure in Berlin resulting from an arson attack...tens of thousands...making do without heat, electricity, cellphone service & warm food or drinks."
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,714

    algarkirk said:

    By the end of 2026: Starmer and Badenoch still in place.
    Reform no longer in a clear lead in the polls.
    Reform disappointed with the dearth of defections.

    By general election: Reform to come second or third in votes and seats.

    Then Algakirk wakes up.
    It's a perfectly sober forecast. Reform are odds against to win the election.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,751

    Difficult start to the year for our family having lost 2 members [89 & 72] in the last 24 hours and another one [84] just before Christmas

    It reminds my wife [86] and I [82] that tempus fugit and each day should be cherished

    In many ways we are unlikely to see todays geopolitics and the long term consquences play out, but do talk of just how concerned we are for the future our grandchildren will face

    Henry VIII was supposedly very anxious about how things would turn out after he was gone. Imagine how he might react to a brief overview of English history in the centuries that followed!

    But then, my Austrian great-grandparents died during and shortly after WWII, and one imagines that they would have been a bit downbeat about the future for the daughter they hadn't seen since she fled Vienna before the war, and yet things didn't turn out all that badly for her, and her great-grandchildren might have a better time of it than we currently fear.
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