When the fox hunting ban was proposed, the Countryside Alliance mobilised a huge protest including at racemeetings I attended where they were, to be blunt, aggressive in demanding support for opposing the ban but of course the ban happened and it seemed the world didn't end.
I've no issue with trail hunting except that it appears (I've no proof) to have been used as bait for actual killing of foxes by hounds (poor choice of words).
The disconnect between town and country is obvious but there's also a disconnect within rural communities too, it would seem and it may be there's pressure within communities not to be seen to be too vocally opposed to hunting with hounds - I don't know.
Is it a hill anyone would choose on which to die? Not a fox, I'd presume and I see a lot of foxes here in East London who live well off the gastronomic detritus of modern society (and they are incredibly adept at, for example, getting cold fried chicken leftovers out of the box. I'm not sure a group of hounds trying to work their way round East Ham would be anything more than a nuisance but the control of urban foxes is an issue too.
So, you're saying the solution is to extend fox hunting to urban areas?
Tally ho.
Morning to you, sir.
It's a thought for a chill Tuesday morning - I can certainly imagine the Plashet & Wall End Stag Hounds getting plenty of applause as they navigate up the High Street between the buses - as to whether the hounds would be diverted by the smells from the shawarma or fried chicken shops, I'm no expert and you certainly wouldn't want them going into the tube station and trying to get through the barriers - there are plenty trying to do that all the time.
I also suspect it would be hunting on ebikes rather than horses but again not the worst idea I've ever heard.
In the 1930s a group of peers put forward a suggestion for hunting foxes in London. They suggested horses and yellow jackets.
Can't remember who they were, but they later admitted they were just trolling the government.
as far as I can tell the traffic has a pretty decent go at keeping down urban fox numbers - maybe an argument to reverse the 20 mph restrictions in inner London?
keeping horses is a v inefficient use of land, we should transition to more productive uses
What an extraordinarily authoritarian comment. I don’t care for horses but the market can decide perfectly well whether rural land is best use for paddock, crop growing or rewilding.
Except that currently the incentives provided by the government skew the market considerably with their CS/CSHT schemes. Thousands of acres are being taken out of production (and by production I mean arable farming). Now, that's all fine and part of the market but it seems strange that we should as a state incentivise people to "rewild" their land ie have it fallow, than put it into food production.
keeping horses is a v inefficient use of land, we should transition to more productive uses
Whether a land use is inefficient is entirely based on your assumptions. For example on one set of assumptions use of land for farming in the UK is highly inefficient because with economies of scale it can be better done elsewhere. The use of land for cathedrals, sports stadiums and the retailing of junk could be regarded as inefficient.
Personally I would like a nation that does without dogs better than one which did without horses. But I don't think my views will get very far.
Worst thing about central London is they still permit horses shitting all over the public highways.
keeping horses is a v inefficient use of land, we should transition to more productive uses
Whether a land use is inefficient is entirely based on your assumptions. For example on one set of assumptions use of land for farming in the UK is highly inefficient because with economies of scale it can be better done elsewhere. The use of land for cathedrals, sports stadiums and the retailing of junk could be regarded as inefficient.
Personally I would like a nation that does without dogs better than one which did without horses. But I don't think my views will get very far.
Worst thing about central London is they still permit horses shitting all over the public highways.
Is that the worst thing? I can think of half a dozen bigger problems OTTOMH.
I see Anneleise Dodds has been made a Dame in the new years honours list, a minor consolation prize for not being deemed the best candidate for Chancellor of Exchequer
So a plurality of Tory supporters oppose a trail hunting ban and less than half of Reform voters want to ban it either. The Boxing Day hunt also is a crucial part of village and rural life in areas like where I live. Hundreds turn out on the village green and the pub serves mulled wine as the hunt gathers and for its supporters in rural areas it is a big deal. Even if they have to hunt a trail or drag hunt now not a fox (whose numbers still need to be kept down).
Labour may try and ban trail hunting as most of its supporters want as it banned fox hunting but with Farage and Badenoch opposed to a trail hunting ban, if Labour lose power at the next general election it will be restored
There are perhaps only 170 hunt packs in England so this romanticised notion of every village welcoming its hunt with drinks and applause really needs to be challenged.
My only experience of this was in St Ives (Cornwall) several years ago when the Western Hunt paid the town a visit and it was all very congenial with a few supporters shouting and a small crowd applauding. For most, it was a curiousity and I suppose if there's a purpose to it, it shows urban people an aspect of rural life with which they would otherwise be unfamiliar.
I just think rural communities have a lot more serious issues than the future of the local Hunt.
This boxing day was notable for the number of people who turned out to support their local hunts. Now, I would be the first to say not only that rural people have bigger fish to fry than worrying about hunting but it is a big part of a substantial proportion (I wouldn't say majority) of rural people. Plenty of rural types loathe hunting, but just like me and Love Island they register their dislike by staying away rather than anything more formal.
keeping horses is a v inefficient use of land, we should transition to more productive uses
Whether a land use is inefficient is entirely based on your assumptions. For example on one set of assumptions use of land for farming in the UK is highly inefficient because with economies of scale it can be better done elsewhere. The use of land for cathedrals, sports stadiums and the retailing of junk could be regarded as inefficient.
Personally I would like a nation that does without dogs better than one which did without horses. But I don't think my views will get very far.
Worst thing about central London is they still permit horses shitting all over the public highways.
Is that the worst thing? I can think of half a dozen bigger problems OTTOMH.
also tourists, but I guess they are a necessary evil.
So a plurality of Tory supporters oppose a trail hunting ban and less than half of Reform voters want to ban it either. The Boxing Day hunt also is a crucial part of village and rural life in areas like where I live. Hundreds turn out on the village green and the pub serves mulled wine as the hunt gathers and for its supporters in rural areas it is a big deal. Even if they have to hunt a trail or drag hunt now not a fox (whose numbers still need to be kept down).
Labour may try and ban trail hunting as most of its supporters want as it banned fox hunting but with Farage and Badenoch opposed to a trail hunting ban, if Labour lose power at the next general election it will be restored
There are perhaps only 170 hunt packs in England so this romanticised notion of every village welcoming its hunt with drinks and applause really needs to be challenged.
My only experience of this was in St Ives (Cornwall) several years ago when the Western Hunt paid the town a visit and it was all very congenial with a few supporters shouting and a small crowd applauding. For most, it was a curiousity and I suppose if there's a purpose to it, it shows urban people an aspect of rural life with which they would otherwise be unfamiliar.
I just think rural communities have a lot more serious issues than the future of the local Hunt.
Yes, but then that argument applies equally (if not more so) in the other direction and makes investing time and energy in banning trail hunting both vindictive and pointless.
I see Anneleise Dodds has been made a Dame in the new years honours list, a minor consolation prize for not being deemed the best candidate for Chancellor of Exchequer
Reflecting on the dodgy Egyptian bloke and his UK citizenship, I remember the Daily Mail taking a more positive position when it came to getting Zola Budd a passport and a Team GB running vest back in the day.
Well, quite and it seems to have stirred up quite a lot of post-Christmas angst.
If all political debate is simply going to be trawling over everyone's tweets for the past 15 years to seek out contradictions and hypocrisy, we might as well pack up and go home. To imagine everyone has to be so rigidly consistent in their published opinions is to desire an almost North Korean-style conformity which would suffocate argument. Arguably, politics is most interesting when people come up with arguments you don't expect given their previously stated positions.
The crux, as I see it, is the question of whether we want as citizens people who say and advocate deeply unpleasant things about individuals, communities and other societal groups or do we accept that given they are born or have obtained legal citizenship (and the obligation to act within the law of the land), that citizenship can't be removed even if they transgress the law and are incarcerated - after all, do we remove the citizenship of murderers if they are born in this country? We take their freedom of course but not their national identity.
Agreed. Those allying for his deportation are necessarily calling for another change in the law to make it easier for a Home Secretary to take away citizenship from an individual.
The bar for removal of citizenship is quite rightly extremely high. Legislating to alter it, over a controversy about what someone has said, is a definite step into a very slippery slope indeed.
Where granting of citizenship is not automatic under the law, then more care should be taken, certainly.
I am though very strongly opposed to the idea of granting politicians what is effectively arbitrary powers to unperson individuals. That the Farages and Jenricks aspire to such powers isn't particularly surprising.
With fox hunting, at least they could see a benefit to a load of dogs and horses trampling all over the place. What's the benefit of trail or drag hunting?
What's the benefit of lacrosse, ludo or chess? Traditional trail hounds have been around for centuries. No horses, no foxes, but just racing dogs around a trail. Dogs seem to like running around after things.
What's the benefit of any sport? What's the benefit of cricket?
I can see the benefit of beach volleyball but cricket!!
I suspect it attracts people on the spectrum who like data but not a lot of disturbing action.
Why beach volleyball? Does it feel harder to you?
I'm sure it's harder than cricket. Can't stand around. Got to keep moving. And it doesn't go on and on for days at a time. And it is a true sport featuring in the Olympics unlike cricket which is seen as too boring.
When the fox hunting ban was proposed, the Countryside Alliance mobilised a huge protest including at racemeetings I attended where they were, to be blunt, aggressive in demanding support for opposing the ban but of course the ban happened and it seemed the world didn't end.
I've no issue with trail hunting except that it appears (I've no proof) to have been used as bait for actual killing of foxes by hounds (poor choice of words).
The disconnect between town and country is obvious but there's also a disconnect within rural communities too, it would seem and it may be there's pressure within communities not to be seen to be too vocally opposed to hunting with hounds - I don't know.
Is it a hill anyone would choose on which to die? Not a fox, I'd presume and I see a lot of foxes here in East London who live well off the gastronomic detritus of modern society (and they are incredibly adept at, for example, getting cold fried chicken leftovers out of the box. I'm not sure a group of hounds trying to work their way round East Ham would be anything more than a nuisance but the control of urban foxes is an issue too.
I like it - the Newham Hunt: I can just see them galloping across the Connaught Bridge, stopping briefly at Custom House for a tot of brandy before charging down Prince Regent Lane in hot pursuit of the foxes congregating around the Slim Chickens rubbish bins.
I see Anneleise Dodds has been made a Dame in the new years honours list, a minor consolation prize for not being deemed the best candidate for Chancellor of Exchequer
No reward for failure....
I thought a knight/dame hood and/or a peerage was the usual reward for failure?
So a plurality of Tory supporters oppose a trail hunting ban and less than half of Reform voters want to ban it either. The Boxing Day hunt also is a crucial part of village and rural life in areas like where I live. Hundreds turn out on the village green and the pub serves mulled wine as the hunt gathers and for its supporters in rural areas it is a big deal. Even if they have to hunt a trail or drag hunt now not a fox (whose numbers still need to be kept down).
Labour may try and ban trail hunting as most of its supporters want as it banned fox hunting but with Farage and Badenoch opposed to a trail hunting ban, if Labour lose power at the next general election it will be restored
There are perhaps only 170 hunt packs in England so this romanticised notion of every village welcoming its hunt with drinks and applause really needs to be challenged.
My only experience of this was in St Ives (Cornwall) several years ago when the Western Hunt paid the town a visit and it was all very congenial with a few supporters shouting and a small crowd applauding. For most, it was a curiousity and I suppose if there's a purpose to it, it shows urban people an aspect of rural life with which they would otherwise be unfamiliar.
I just think rural communities have a lot more serious issues than the future of the local Hunt.
The island's hunt is led by an American businessman who clearly enjoys playing at being the landed Brit. If you come across them while trying to drive across the island, it can be a real nuisance.
Yet another reason, along with the history of previous "security guarantees", to think that the next one will also be worthless.
If Trump takes at face value Putin’s spurious claim of the Ukrainian drone attack on his residence, what other made-up excuse he would take at face value once Russia decides to break a peace deal and invade again? This may have been the whole point of Putin’s successful psy-op on Trump today, actually. https://x.com/yarotrof/status/2005730459443949961
This (in addition to the obvious point that Putin wants surrender or to keep fighting) is the biggest obstacle to a peace deal. It requires credible US security guarantees and those are by definition (because of that 'credible' caveat) impossible under Donald Trump.
They aren't impossible - but to have any sort of credibility would have to be provided by Europe, and backed by Europe forces alone, and cannot therefore be negotiated by Trump.
Drag hunting uses artificial scents (like aniseed) on a pre-planned route, focusing on equestrian sport and jumping, while trail hunting uses animal-based scents (like fox urine) and mimics traditional hunting.
Drag hunting is a more controlled, legitimate equestrian activity distinct from the controversial trail hunting often used as a cover for illegal hunting.
So to answer your question: The benefit of drag hunting is a harmless equestrian sport providing exercise and the other benefits of taking part in a sport. The "benefit" of trail hunting is providing a cover for illegal hunting.
Thanks for that. I live in a very rural area and I didn't know the distinction between the two. Is the proposal to ban both drag and trail or just trail?
Personally I support the ban on fox hunting. I would also support a ban on trail.hunting as you have explained it. I would not support a ban on drag hunting under those definitions.
I also have to say red coat hunting plays no part at all in the life of my rural community. I have never seen any sign of a hunt in the 17 years I have lived here.
Shooting in its various forms is however a big part of rural life round here
The recent proposal in the UK government's Animal Welfare Strategy focuses specifically on banning trail hunting, not drag hunting.
I have to confess that I didn't know of the distinction between drag and trail hunting 30 minutes ago. You live and learn!
PS Useful for pub quizzes.
Ditto. And as described I would support drag bunting and not fox or trail hunting. I don't want to stop the pageantry or the enjoyment of those taking part or watching. The idea fox hunting keeps numbers down is nonsense. Fox territories don't work like that and of course if trail hunting is not killing foxes as claimed it is irrelevant and a daft justification.
With fox hunting, at least they could see a benefit to a load of dogs and horses trampling all over the place. What's the benefit of trail or drag hunting?
Its a hunting version of clay pigeon shooting, no real fox is used.
Wonder what the yougov definition of someome who lives rurally is
I know what it is. I'm just pointing out that it essentially means a load of people running around on horseback with dogs in tow for no good reason.
Arguably, the approval figures would have been higher if they'd said 'and they kill lots of those annoying foxes on the quiet.'
Aye, I have heard tale of plenty of farms who dont want the hunts on them due to the damage they cause to the land. Dressing up in red coats to ride a horse/hunt on boxing days is not really a thing up here
What rights and recourse do landowners have against hunts who trespass on their land ?
Drag hunting uses artificial scents (like aniseed) on a pre-planned route, focusing on equestrian sport and jumping, while trail hunting uses animal-based scents (like fox urine) and mimics traditional hunting.
Drag hunting is a more controlled, legitimate equestrian activity distinct from the controversial trail hunting often used as a cover for illegal hunting.
So to answer your question: The benefit of drag hunting is a harmless equestrian sport providing exercise and the other benefits of taking part in a sport. The "benefit" of trail hunting is providing a cover for illegal hunting.
Thanks for that. I live in a very rural area and I didn't know the distinction between the two. Is the proposal to ban both drag and trail or just trail?
Personally I support the ban on fox hunting. I would also support a ban on trail.hunting as you have explained it. I would not support a ban on drag hunting under those definitions.
I also have to say red coat hunting plays no part at all in the life of my rural community. I have never seen any sign of a hunt in the 17 years I have lived here.
Shooting in its various forms is however a big part of rural life round here
The recent proposal in the UK government's Animal Welfare Strategy focuses specifically on banning trail hunting, not drag hunting.
I have to confess that I didn't know of the distinction between drag and trail hunting 30 minutes ago. You live and learn!
PS Useful for pub quizzes.
Ditto. And as described I would support drag bunting and not fox or trail hunting. I don't want to stop the pageantry or the enjoyment of those taking part or watching. The idea fox hunting keeps numbers down is nonsense. Fox territories don't work like that and of course if trail hunting is not killing foxes it is irrelevant and a daft justification.
Drag hunting uses human quarry and bloodhounds. Trail hunting uses a (usually) animal/fox-based scent which is followed by foxhounds.
The reason Lab is going after trail hunting and not drag hunting is because it is believed that trail hunting is a "smokescreen" for fox hunting and away from prying eyes those foxhounds will be encouraged to hunt foxes.
That is pretty nuanced if you are going to introduce a law banning one and allowing the other. Any hound can follow any scent. Each hound type is bred to follow a particular scent so on the one hand it is quite straightforward but on the other, ostensibly the activities look exactly the same bar a different breed of dog.
Among the measures that are thought will be introduced are to make landowners culpable if a fox is hunted on their land, and to introduce the concept of recklessness, whereby the threshold of proof to show you were breaking the law (by putting hounds into a position whereby the could hunt a fox) much lower.
If they go for the former (landowner liability) then landowners would presumably have to think long and hard about whether to allow drag hunts on their land given that a dog with a nose is a dog with a nose.
Hunting of all types is in a quantum state and drag hunting would likely continue with a trail hunting ban because the antis wouldn't (and don't currently) interest themselves in activities which are demonstrably not breaking or seeking to break the law and so no one would care or go to look at drag hunts.
With fox hunting, at least they could see a benefit to a load of dogs and horses trampling all over the place. What's the benefit of trail or drag hunting?
Its a hunting version of clay pigeon shooting, no real fox is used.
Wonder what the yougov definition of someome who lives rurally is
I know what it is. I'm just pointing out that it essentially means a load of people running around on horseback with dogs in tow for no good reason.
Arguably, the approval figures would have been higher if they'd said 'and they kill lots of those annoying foxes on the quiet.'
Aye, I have heard tale of plenty of farms who dont want the hunts on them due to the damage they cause to the land. Dressing up in red coats to ride a horse/hunt on boxing days is not really a thing up here
What rights and recourse do landowners have against hunts who trespass on their land ?
The usual civil legal remedy for the damage done by the trespass, provided they're up for an experience not dissimilar to an Italian villager taking their local mafia boss to court. Although tbf most hunts will avoid the PR risk by offering payment for the damage - which might be fine for fences, flowers and vegetables but not so much if the hunt has savaged their pet.
One thing that surprised me is that there is still hunting with hounds in Ireland. I think there are something like 40-odd hunts, including at least one down here in West Cork, red jackets and all.
Some of the farmers really hate them, but they have enough support to have defeated a recent Dail attempt to ban foxhunting by 124 votes to 24.
Morning all...back from a month behind the great Chinese firewall, have I missed much?
Ironically given the header the Chinese new year coming up is the year of the horse (specifically fire horse)
I might well have eaten horse*, pretty sure I eat every part of every other animal going. Veganism or those picky about which part of an animal you want in your food doesn't appear to be a thing in China.
* I have previously eaten horse in Italy and it was actually really good.
Yet another reason, along with the history of previous "security guarantees", to think that the next one will also be worthless.
If Trump takes at face value Putin’s spurious claim of the Ukrainian drone attack on his residence, what other made-up excuse he would take at face value once Russia decides to break a peace deal and invade again? This may have been the whole point of Putin’s successful psy-op on Trump today, actually. https://x.com/yarotrof/status/2005730459443949961
This (in addition to the obvious point that Putin wants surrender or to keep fighting) is the biggest obstacle to a peace deal. It requires credible US security guarantees and those are by definition (because of that 'credible' caveat) impossible under Donald Trump.
They aren't impossible - but to have any sort of credibility would have to be provided by Europe, and backed by Europe forces alone, and cannot therefore be negotiated by Trump.
I think European view is give the senile traitor what he wants in public and deal with reality away from the camera lights.
"Asylum seekers should be required to wear electronic tags so their movements can be tracked, a policing chief has proposed.
Katy Bourne, Sussex’s police and crime commissioner (PCC), said the move would act as a deterrent to any potential criminal activity. It could also give migrants “greater freedom” to travel further from holding centres and help them get temporary jobs."
(makes beep-beep sounds from the tracker in "Aliens")
Incidentally Andy, regarding your last-thread question of Starmer post-May, there is no mechanism to remove an unpopular Labour leader without his consent, so if Starmer digs in (and he will) they and we are stuck with him.
Mechanism, schmechanism. Thatcher, Cameron, May, Johnson, Truss... none of them went because of the rules. If enough ministers say "time's up Keir, if you don't walk then I do", that's that.
For that to be the case, those ministers need to think that any plausible alternative is an improvement. And, however dismal the statement is, that's not currently the case.
Besides, if I were an ambitious Labourite, not necessarily called Wes, I wouldn't want to be PM until about six months before the next election. Any longer runup than that and it would become clear that the Premiership is currently an impossible job, even if you have any of the usual skills.
With fox hunting, at least they could see a benefit to a load of dogs and horses trampling all over the place. What's the benefit of trail or drag hunting?
Its a hunting version of clay pigeon shooting, no real fox is used.
Wonder what the yougov definition of someome who lives rurally is
I know what it is. I'm just pointing out that it essentially means a load of people running around on horseback with dogs in tow for no good reason.
Arguably, the approval figures would have been higher if they'd said 'and they kill lots of those annoying foxes on the quiet.'
Aye, I have heard tale of plenty of farms who dont want the hunts on them due to the damage they cause to the land. Dressing up in red coats to ride a horse/hunt on boxing days is not really a thing up here
What rights and recourse do landowners have against hunts who trespass on their land ?
Hunts don't trespass on anyone's land. They might in error go somewhere they aren't or weren't supposed to go and in those cases they get orf the land sharpish. They have no interest in regular or formalised trespass. Unlike the antis who regularly trespass on land which is dealt with as a civil matter.
With fox hunting, at least they could see a benefit to a load of dogs and horses trampling all over the place. What's the benefit of trail or drag hunting?
Its a hunting version of clay pigeon shooting, no real fox is used.
Wonder what the yougov definition of someome who lives rurally is
I know what it is. I'm just pointing out that it essentially means a load of people running around on horseback with dogs in tow for no good reason.
Arguably, the approval figures would have been higher if they'd said 'and they kill lots of those annoying foxes on the quiet.'
Aye, I have heard tale of plenty of farms who dont want the hunts on them due to the damage they cause to the land. Dressing up in red coats to ride a horse/hunt on boxing days is not really a thing up here
What rights and recourse do landowners have against hunts who trespass on their land ?
Not sure on that at all, its only online or third hand I have read or heard. They are supposed to get permission, which makes me wonder if a lot of hunts happen on estate land
One thing that surprised me is that there is still hunting with hounds in Ireland. I think there are something like 40-odd hunts, including at least one down here in West Cork, red jackets and all.
Some of the farmers really hate them, but they have enough support to have defeated a recent Dail attempt to ban foxhunting by 124 votes to 24.
Drag hunting uses artificial scents (like aniseed) on a pre-planned route, focusing on equestrian sport and jumping, while trail hunting uses animal-based scents (like fox urine) and mimics traditional hunting.
Drag hunting is a more controlled, legitimate equestrian activity distinct from the controversial trail hunting often used as a cover for illegal hunting.
So to answer your question: The benefit of drag hunting is a harmless equestrian sport providing exercise and the other benefits of taking part in a sport. The "benefit" of trail hunting is providing a cover for illegal hunting.
Thanks for that. I live in a very rural area and I didn't know the distinction between the two. Is the proposal to ban both drag and trail or just trail?
Personally I support the ban on fox hunting. I would also support a ban on trail.hunting as you have explained it. I would not support a ban on drag hunting under those definitions.
I also have to say red coat hunting plays no part at all in the life of my rural community. I have never seen any sign of a hunt in the 17 years I have lived here.
Shooting in its various forms is however a big part of rural life round here
The recent proposal in the UK government's Animal Welfare Strategy focuses specifically on banning trail hunting, not drag hunting.
I have to confess that I didn't know of the distinction between drag and trail hunting 30 minutes ago. You live and learn!
PS Useful for pub quizzes.
Ditto. And as described I would support drag bunting and not fox or trail hunting. I don't want to stop the pageantry or the enjoyment of those taking part or watching. The idea fox hunting keeps numbers down is nonsense. Fox territories don't work like that and of course if trail hunting is not killing foxes it is irrelevant and a daft justification.
Drag hunting uses human quarry and bloodhounds. Trail hunting uses a (usually) animal/fox-based scent which is followed by foxhounds.
The reason Lab is going after trail hunting and not drag hunting is because it is believed that trail hunting is a "smokescreen" for fox hunting and away from prying eyes those foxhounds will be encouraged to hunt foxes.
That is pretty nuanced if you are going to introduce a law banning one and allowing the other. Any hound can follow any scent. Each hound type is bred to follow a particular scent so on the one hand it is quite straightforward but on the other, ostensibly the activities look exactly the same bar a different breed of dog.
Among the measures that are thought will be introduced are to make landowners culpable if a fox is hunted on their land, and to introduce the concept of recklessness, whereby the threshold of proof to show you were breaking the law (by putting hounds into a position whereby the could hunt a fox) much lower.
If they go for the former (landowner liability) then landowners would presumably have to think long and hard about whether to allow drag hunts on their land given that a dog with a nose is a dog with a nose.
Hunting of all types is in a quantum state and drag hunting would likely continue with a trail hunting ban because the antis wouldn't (and don't currently) interest themselves in activities which are demonstrably not breaking or seeking to break the law and so no one would care or go to look at drag hunts.
I've done both scent training and mantrailing with the dog - for scent training we're usually hunting small pots containing cloves which are hidden about the search area or trail; for mantrailing we use each other, walking away and hiding behind a distant tree or in a bush, and take a clothing sample to start off the search. It's fair to say that either is easily disrupted if a squirrel runs across the trail, although here that's rare as we still have the timid red ones.
With fox hunting, at least they could see a benefit to a load of dogs and horses trampling all over the place. What's the benefit of trail or drag hunting?
Its a hunting version of clay pigeon shooting, no real fox is used.
Wonder what the yougov definition of someome who lives rurally is
I know what it is. I'm just pointing out that it essentially means a load of people running around on horseback with dogs in tow for no good reason.
Arguably, the approval figures would have been higher if they'd said 'and they kill lots of those annoying foxes on the quiet.'
Aye, I have heard tale of plenty of farms who dont want the hunts on them due to the damage they cause to the land. Dressing up in red coats to ride a horse/hunt on boxing days is not really a thing up here
What rights and recourse do landowners have against hunts who trespass on their land ?
Not sure on that at all, its only online or third hand I have read or heard. They are supposed to get permission, which makes me wonder if a lot of hunts happen on estate land
They absolutely get permission and wouldn't dream of going over land they were not allowed to go over. Plenty of farmers both hunt, and/or are happy with the hunt going over their land, plenty of estate owners likewise.
With fox hunting, at least they could see a benefit to a load of dogs and horses trampling all over the place. What's the benefit of trail or drag hunting?
Its a hunting version of clay pigeon shooting, no real fox is used.
Wonder what the yougov definition of someome who lives rurally is
I know what it is. I'm just pointing out that it essentially means a load of people running around on horseback with dogs in tow for no good reason.
Arguably, the approval figures would have been higher if they'd said 'and they kill lots of those annoying foxes on the quiet.'
Aye, I have heard tale of plenty of farms who dont want the hunts on them due to the damage they cause to the land. Dressing up in red coats to ride a horse/hunt on boxing days is not really a thing up here
What rights and recourse do landowners have against hunts who trespass on their land ?
Hunts don't trespass on anyone's land. They might in error go somewhere they aren't or weren't supposed to go and in those cases they get orf the land sharpish. They have no interest in regular or formalised trespass. Unlike the antis who regularly trespass on land which is dealt with as a civil matter.
In the old days, at least, that wasn't true - hunts would follow the fox and even farmers who had expressely told the hunt they weren't welcome on their land sometimes found that they had been. And there were a fair few cases of gardens behind homes in the countryside being trashed, and/or pets being killed. Following a laid trail, such incidents are thankfully less likely.
With fox hunting, at least they could see a benefit to a load of dogs and horses trampling all over the place. What's the benefit of trail or drag hunting?
Its a hunting version of clay pigeon shooting, no real fox is used.
Wonder what the yougov definition of someome who lives rurally is
I know what it is. I'm just pointing out that it essentially means a load of people running around on horseback with dogs in tow for no good reason.
Arguably, the approval figures would have been higher if they'd said 'and they kill lots of those annoying foxes on the quiet.'
Aye, I have heard tale of plenty of farms who dont want the hunts on them due to the damage they cause to the land. Dressing up in red coats to ride a horse/hunt on boxing days is not really a thing up here
What rights and recourse do landowners have against hunts who trespass on their land ?
Hunts don't trespass on anyone's land. They might in error go somewhere they aren't or weren't supposed to go and in those cases they get orf the land sharpish. They have no interest in regular or formalised trespass. Unlike the antis who regularly trespass on land which is dealt with as a civil matter.
In the old days, at least, that wasn't true - hunts would follow the fox and even farmers who had expressely told the hunt they weren't welcome on their land sometimes found that they had been. And there were a fair few cases of gardens behind homes in the countryside being trashed, and/or pets being killed. Following a laid trail, such incidents are thankfully less likely.
The old days were the old days. Not to say it never happens in the new days but it is hugely less likely. Following a laid trail is indeed designed to reduce further those instances.
Yet another reason, along with the history of previous "security guarantees", to think that the next one will also be worthless.
If Trump takes at face value Putin’s spurious claim of the Ukrainian drone attack on his residence, what other made-up excuse he would take at face value once Russia decides to break a peace deal and invade again? This may have been the whole point of Putin’s successful psy-op on Trump today, actually. https://x.com/yarotrof/status/2005730459443949961
This (in addition to the obvious point that Putin wants surrender or to keep fighting) is the biggest obstacle to a peace deal. It requires credible US security guarantees and those are by definition (because of that 'credible' caveat) impossible under Donald Trump.
They aren't impossible - but to have any sort of credibility would have to be provided by Europe, and backed by Europe forces alone, and cannot therefore be negotiated by Trump.
Exactly. The 'US' aspect is what I meant. So that leaves Europe whereby a credible guarantee becomes possible but otoh very difficult to agree and structure.
With fox hunting, at least they could see a benefit to a load of dogs and horses trampling all over the place. What's the benefit of trail or drag hunting?
Its a hunting version of clay pigeon shooting, no real fox is used.
Wonder what the yougov definition of someome who lives rurally is
I know what it is. I'm just pointing out that it essentially means a load of people running around on horseback with dogs in tow for no good reason.
Arguably, the approval figures would have been higher if they'd said 'and they kill lots of those annoying foxes on the quiet.'
Aye, I have heard tale of plenty of farms who dont want the hunts on them due to the damage they cause to the land. Dressing up in red coats to ride a horse/hunt on boxing days is not really a thing up here
What rights and recourse do landowners have against hunts who trespass on their land ?
Hunts don't trespass on anyone's land. They might in error go somewhere they aren't or weren't supposed to go and in those cases they get orf the land sharpish. They have no interest in regular or formalised trespass. Unlike the antis who regularly trespass on land which is dealt with as a civil matter.
One thing that surprised me is that there is still hunting with hounds in Ireland. I think there are something like 40-odd hunts, including at least one down here in West Cork, red jackets and all.
Some of the farmers really hate them, but they have enough support to have defeated a recent Dail attempt to ban foxhunting by 124 votes to 24.
With fox hunting, at least they could see a benefit to a load of dogs and horses trampling all over the place. What's the benefit of trail or drag hunting?
What's the benefit of lacrosse, ludo or chess? Traditional trail hounds have been around for centuries. No horses, no foxes, but just racing dogs around a trail. Dogs seem to like running around after things.
What's the benefit of any sport? What's the benefit of cricket?
I can see the benefit of beach volleyball but cricket!!
I suspect it attracts people on the spectrum who like data but not a lot of disturbing action.
Why beach volleyball? Does it feel harder to you?
I'm sure it's harder than cricket. Can't stand around. Got to keep moving. And it doesn't go on and on for days at a time. And it is a true sport featuring in the Olympics unlike cricket which is seen as too boring.
On that logic, we should be campaigning for sumo wrectling to be an OLympic sport.
So a plurality of Tory supporters oppose a trail hunting ban and less than half of Reform voters want to ban it either. The Boxing Day hunt also is a crucial part of village and rural life in areas like where I live. Hundreds turn out on the village green and the pub serves mulled wine as the hunt gathers and for its supporters in rural areas it is a big deal. Even if they have to hunt a trail or drag hunt now not a fox (whose numbers still need to be kept down).
Labour may try and ban trail hunting as most of its supporters want as it banned fox hunting but with Farage and Badenoch opposed to a trail hunting ban, if Labour lose power at the next general election it will be restored
There are perhaps only 170 hunt packs in England so this romanticised notion of every village welcoming its hunt with drinks and applause really needs to be challenged.
My only experience of this was in St Ives (Cornwall) several years ago when the Western Hunt paid the town a visit and it was all very congenial with a few supporters shouting and a small crowd applauding. For most, it was a curiousity and I suppose if there's a purpose to it, it shows urban people an aspect of rural life with which they would otherwise be unfamiliar.
I just think rural communities have a lot more serious issues than the future of the local Hunt.
Those foxhunts are spread across the country from Pembrokeshire to here in rural Essex, from Dumfriesshire to Wensleydale, the Cotswolds and Devon and will of course often stop at more than 1 village on a big hunt day than Boxing Day.
keeping horses is a v inefficient use of land, we should transition to more productive uses
Whether a land use is inefficient is entirely based on your assumptions. For example on one set of assumptions use of land for farming in the UK is highly inefficient because with economies of scale it can be better done elsewhere. The use of land for cathedrals, sports stadiums and the retailing of junk could be regarded as inefficient.
Personally I would like a nation that does without dogs better than one which did without horses. But I don't think my views will get very far.
Worst thing about central London is they still permit horses shitting all over the public highways.
Is that the worst thing? I can think of half a dozen bigger problems OTTOMH.
also tourists, but I guess they are a necessary evil.
I don't think they do allow tourist to shit all over the public highways!?!!
So a plurality of Tory supporters oppose a trail hunting ban and less than half of Reform voters want to ban it either. The Boxing Day hunt also is a crucial part of village and rural life in areas like where I live. Hundreds turn out on the village green and the pub serves mulled wine as the hunt gathers and for its supporters in rural areas it is a big deal. Even if they have to hunt a trail or drag hunt now not a fox (whose numbers still need to be kept down).
Labour may try and ban trail hunting as most of its supporters want as it banned fox hunting but with Farage and Badenoch opposed to a trail hunting ban, if Labour lose power at the next general election it will be restored
Not with those polling numbers in the lead, it won't. No government - and most especially one in the fragile poisition it's likely to be in after the next election - will want to take on the powerful animal welfare lobby and be so dramatically on the wrong side of public opinion, for no electoral or political or financial benefit whatsoever.
The polling shows most Tory voters oppose a trail hunting ban and less than half of Reform voters back one either, so of course Farage and Badenoch would try and reverse a ban.
It is only Labour and Green voters who are strongly in favour of a trail hunting ban with over 60% in favour, even LDs are only 50% for a ban
Findings are not a surprise. Opinion about this is almost entirely sentimental now and foxes are put in the same category as dogs and cats by a cosseted and pet obsessed nation. Very few know much about the realities of nature or land management.
More widely, there seems to be an increasing acceptance of people's dogs being admitted to hotels, museums, pubs and visitor attractions as well - which irritates me - but some battles you just aren't going to win.
I think I agree with this, though like Anne it's not something I feel strongly about.
A decade ago I would have felt differently but in my view there are far more pressing animal cruelty concerns within our food system than the way a small number of rural pests are treated when they are killed.
The ban feels like unnecessary class warfare. I vaguely disapprove of people on horseback encouraging a pack of hounds to chase foxes around the countryside and rip them apart, but suspect those same people would vaguely disapprove of me getting out of a plane in midair, so each to their own.
Foxhunting was a bit of an anomaly when things like badger-baiting, cockfighting and various other forms of animal cruelty for human entertainment were already banned.
So there's an argument that the class warfare was in treating foxhunting as an exception to the banning of those lower-class bloodsports.
Drag hunting uses artificial scents (like aniseed) on a pre-planned route, focusing on equestrian sport and jumping, while trail hunting uses animal-based scents (like fox urine) and mimics traditional hunting.
Drag hunting is a more controlled, legitimate equestrian activity distinct from the controversial trail hunting often used as a cover for illegal hunting.
So to answer your question: The benefit of drag hunting is a harmless equestrian sport providing exercise and the other benefits of taking part in a sport. The "benefit" of trail hunting is providing a cover for illegal hunting.
Thanks for that. I live in a very rural area and I didn't know the distinction between the two. Is the proposal to ban both drag and trail or just trail?
Personally I support the ban on fox hunting. I would also support a ban on trail.hunting as you have explained it. I would not support a ban on drag hunting under those definitions.
I also have to say red coat hunting plays no part at all in the life of my rural community. I have never seen any sign of a hunt in the 17 years I have lived here.
Shooting in its various forms is however a big part of rural life round here
The recent proposal in the UK government's Animal Welfare Strategy focuses specifically on banning trail hunting, not drag hunting.
I have to confess that I didn't know of the distinction between drag and trail hunting 30 minutes ago. You live and learn!
PS Useful for pub quizzes.
Ditto. And as described I would support drag bunting and not fox or trail hunting. I don't want to stop the pageantry or the enjoyment of those taking part or watching. The idea fox hunting keeps numbers down is nonsense. Fox territories don't work like that and of course if trail hunting is not killing foxes as claimed it is irrelevant and a daft justification.
So what if trail hunting is daft or irrelevant and others enjoy it?
Interesting that Reform voters are less supportive of trail hunting than Conservatives.
The difference between Farage's personal politics and those of his constituents, made real. The same finding would arise in relation to a whole stack of economic policy issues.
Farage is essentially a right wing renegade Tory.
He'd probably have been Monday club in the 80s.
Farage is basically a rightwing Thatcherite Tory, I met him once on an EU Parliament tour and he told me so but fiercely anti EU.
However he is also self aware enough to know that 1/3 of Reform voters are ex Labour even if 2/3 are ex Tories
One thing that surprised me is that there is still hunting with hounds in Ireland. I think there are something like 40-odd hunts, including at least one down here in West Cork, red jackets and all.
Some of the farmers really hate them, but they have enough support to have defeated a recent Dail attempt to ban foxhunting by 124 votes to 24.
Findings are not a surprise. Opinion about this is almost entirely sentimental now and foxes are put in the same category as dogs and cats by a cosseted and pet obsessed nation. Very few know much about the realities of nature or land management.
More widely, there seems to be an increasing acceptance of people's dogs being admitted to hotels, museums, pubs and visitor attractions as well - which irritates me - but some battles you just aren't going to win.
I think I agree with this, though like Anne it's not something I feel strongly about.
A decade ago I would have felt differently but in my view there are far more pressing animal cruelty concerns within our food system than the way a small number of rural pests are treated when they are killed.
The ban feels like unnecessary class warfare. I vaguely disapprove of people on horseback encouraging a pack of hounds to chase foxes around the countryside and rip them apart, but suspect those same people would vaguely disapprove of me getting out of a plane in midair, so each to their own.
Foxhunting was a bit of an anomaly when things like badger-baiting, cockfighting and various other forms of animal cruelty for human entertainment were already banned.
So there's an argument that the class warfare was in treating foxhunting as an exception to the banning of those lower-class bloodsports.
Yes Labour would never try and ban fishing as it has far more of its own traditional supporters doing it than foxhunting has had
So a plurality of Tory supporters oppose a trail hunting ban and less than half of Reform voters want to ban it either. The Boxing Day hunt also is a crucial part of village and rural life in areas like where I live. Hundreds turn out on the village green and the pub serves mulled wine as the hunt gathers and for its supporters in rural areas it is a big deal. Even if they have to hunt a trail or drag hunt now not a fox (whose numbers still need to be kept down).
Labour may try and ban trail hunting as most of its supporters want as it banned fox hunting but with Farage and Badenoch opposed to a trail hunting ban, if Labour lose power at the next general election it will be restored
There are perhaps only 170 hunt packs in England so this romanticised notion of every village welcoming its hunt with drinks and applause really needs to be challenged.
My only experience of this was in St Ives (Cornwall) several years ago when the Western Hunt paid the town a visit and it was all very congenial with a few supporters shouting and a small crowd applauding. For most, it was a curiousity and I suppose if there's a purpose to it, it shows urban people an aspect of rural life with which they would otherwise be unfamiliar.
I just think rural communities have a lot more serious issues than the future of the local Hunt.
Those foxhunts are spread across the country from Pembrokeshire to here in rural Essex, from Dumfriesshire to Wensleydale, the Cotswolds and Devon and will of course often stop at more than 1 village on a big hunt day than Boxing Day.
Trail hunting and fox hunting are already banned in Scotland, so presumably those feudal re-enacters in Dumfriesshire are just going out for a cosplaying hack. Unless they’re breaking the law of course!!
Findings are not a surprise. Opinion about this is almost entirely sentimental now and foxes are put in the same category as dogs and cats by a cosseted and pet obsessed nation. Very few know much about the realities of nature or land management.
More widely, there seems to be an increasing acceptance of people's dogs being admitted to hotels, museums, pubs and visitor attractions as well - which irritates me - but some battles you just aren't going to win.
I think I agree with this, though like Anne it's not something I feel strongly about.
A decade ago I would have felt differently but in my view there are far more pressing animal cruelty concerns within our food system than the way a small number of rural pests are treated when they are killed.
The ban feels like unnecessary class warfare. I vaguely disapprove of people on horseback encouraging a pack of hounds to chase foxes around the countryside and rip them apart, but suspect those same people would vaguely disapprove of me getting out of a plane in midair, so each to their own.
Foxhunting was a bit of an anomaly when things like badger-baiting, cockfighting and various other forms of animal cruelty for human entertainment were already banned.
So there's an argument that the class warfare was in treating foxhunting as an exception to the banning of those lower-class bloodsports.
Very reminiscent of how the upper classes and well off were able to enjoy gambling and dirty, er, art cinema in private clubs and therefore in ways closed to the proles.
Yet more squirrel politics. We need some grown up leadership who can focus on things that actually matter.
I wouldn't mind seeing the polling on hunting grey squirrels back off the mainland.
Irritating little American bastards, they are.
The evidence appears to be that if you improve habitats to encourage the return of arboreal predators, like polecats, then the greys get pushed out of an area.
So a plurality of Tory supporters oppose a trail hunting ban and less than half of Reform voters want to ban it either. The Boxing Day hunt also is a crucial part of village and rural life in areas like where I live. Hundreds turn out on the village green and the pub serves mulled wine as the hunt gathers and for its supporters in rural areas it is a big deal. Even if they have to hunt a trail or drag hunt now not a fox (whose numbers still need to be kept down).
Labour may try and ban trail hunting as most of its supporters want as it banned fox hunting but with Farage and Badenoch opposed to a trail hunting ban, if Labour lose power at the next general election it will be restored
There are perhaps only 170 hunt packs in England so this romanticised notion of every village welcoming its hunt with drinks and applause really needs to be challenged.
My only experience of this was in St Ives (Cornwall) several years ago when the Western Hunt paid the town a visit and it was all very congenial with a few supporters shouting and a small crowd applauding. For most, it was a curiousity and I suppose if there's a purpose to it, it shows urban people an aspect of rural life with which they would otherwise be unfamiliar.
I just think rural communities have a lot more serious issues than the future of the local Hunt.
Those foxhunts are spread across the country from Pembrokeshire to here in rural Essex, from Dumfriesshire to Wensleydale, the Cotswolds and Devon and will of course often stop at more than 1 village on a big hunt day than Boxing Day.
Trail hunting and fox hunting are already banned in Scotland, so presumably those feudal re-enacters in Dumfriesshire are just going out for a cosplaying hack. Unless they’re breaking the law of course!!
They will be drag hunting (and trail hunting if they can get away with it I suspect)
So a plurality of Tory supporters oppose a trail hunting ban and less than half of Reform voters want to ban it either. The Boxing Day hunt also is a crucial part of village and rural life in areas like where I live. Hundreds turn out on the village green and the pub serves mulled wine as the hunt gathers and for its supporters in rural areas it is a big deal. Even if they have to hunt a trail or drag hunt now not a fox (whose numbers still need to be kept down).
Labour may try and ban trail hunting as most of its supporters want as it banned fox hunting but with Farage and Badenoch opposed to a trail hunting ban, if Labour lose power at the next general election it will be restored
There are perhaps only 170 hunt packs in England so this romanticised notion of every village welcoming its hunt with drinks and applause really needs to be challenged.
My only experience of this was in St Ives (Cornwall) several years ago when the Western Hunt paid the town a visit and it was all very congenial with a few supporters shouting and a small crowd applauding. For most, it was a curiousity and I suppose if there's a purpose to it, it shows urban people an aspect of rural life with which they would otherwise be unfamiliar.
I just think rural communities have a lot more serious issues than the future of the local Hunt.
Those foxhunts are spread across the country from Pembrokeshire to here in rural Essex, from Dumfriesshire to Wensleydale, the Cotswolds and Devon and will of course often stop at more than 1 village on a big hunt day than Boxing Day.
Trail hunting and fox hunting are already banned in Scotland, so presumably those feudal re-enacters in Dumfriesshire are just going out for a cosplaying hack. Unless they’re breaking the law of course!!
Interesting HYUFD thinks that fox hunting still exists in E&W never mind north of Sark. "Those foxhunts are spread across the country from Pembrokeshire to here in rural Essex, from Dumfriesshire to Wensleydale, the Cotswolds and Devon [...]". Edit: Maybe he's letting the fox out of the bag?
One thing that surprised me is that there is still hunting with hounds in Ireland. I think there are something like 40-odd hunts, including at least one down here in West Cork, red jackets and all.
Some of the farmers really hate them, but they have enough support to have defeated a recent Dail attempt to ban foxhunting by 124 votes to 24.
Quite conclusively you might note. You will find some farmers (or accountants) who really hate everything so the key issue was the vote in the Dail.
We need to reunify the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland so the good Irish MPs can outvote the nitwits we have in Westminster.
Most Irish MPs represent rural or semi rural constituencies, most UK MPs represent big city, suburban or large town constituencies is probably the main difference.
Though yes well done the Dail for voting to keep fox hunting unlike Westminster and Holyrood
Findings are not a surprise. Opinion about this is almost entirely sentimental now and foxes are put in the same category as dogs and cats by a cosseted and pet obsessed nation. Very few know much about the realities of nature or land management.
More widely, there seems to be an increasing acceptance of people's dogs being admitted to hotels, museums, pubs and visitor attractions as well - which irritates me - but some battles you just aren't going to win.
I think I agree with this, though like Anne it's not something I feel strongly about.
A decade ago I would have felt differently but in my view there are far more pressing animal cruelty concerns within our food system than the way a small number of rural pests are treated when they are killed.
The ban feels like unnecessary class warfare. I vaguely disapprove of people on horseback encouraging a pack of hounds to chase foxes around the countryside and rip them apart, but suspect those same people would vaguely disapprove of me getting out of a plane in midair, so each to their own.
Foxhunting was a bit of an anomaly when things like badger-baiting, cockfighting and various other forms of animal cruelty for human entertainment were already banned.
So there's an argument that the class warfare was in treating foxhunting as an exception to the banning of those lower-class bloodsports.
Very reminiscent of how the upper classes and well off were able to enjoy gambling and dirty, er, art cinema in private clubs and therefore in ways closed to the proles.
The history of gambling is the history of the class system is the history of Britain.
Having said that, the cure to the problem of the upper classes doing things that are banned to the lower classes is to legalise it for the lower classes, not delegalise it for the upper classes.
One thing that surprised me is that there is still hunting with hounds in Ireland. I think there are something like 40-odd hunts, including at least one down here in West Cork, red jackets and all.
Some of the farmers really hate them, but they have enough support to have defeated a recent Dail attempt to ban foxhunting by 124 votes to 24.
Quite conclusively you might note. You will find some farmers (or accountants) who really hate everything so the key issue was the vote in the Dail.
We need to reunify the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland so the good Irish MPs can outvote the nitwits we have in Westminster.
Most Irish MPs represent rural or semi rural constituencies, most UK MPs represent big city, suburban or large town constituencies is probably the main difference.
Though yes well done the Dail for voting to keep fox hunting unlike Westminster and Holyrood
Bloody funny 'most', given the population is 65% urban.
Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-Ga.) claimed in a New York Times profile that President Trump said his “friends will get hurt” by exposing abusers connected to convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein.
According to the story told by Greene, she received a call from Trump after she said at a news conference that she would expose the names of men who abused victims of Epstein. The news conference came after a House Oversight and Government Reform Committee closed-door meeting with women victimized by Epstein.
Greene said Trump called her after the news conference to express his unhappiness. The Times reported that people could hear Trump yelling at Greene as she talked to him over a speakerphone.
One thing that surprised me is that there is still hunting with hounds in Ireland. I think there are something like 40-odd hunts, including at least one down here in West Cork, red jackets and all.
Some of the farmers really hate them, but they have enough support to have defeated a recent Dail attempt to ban foxhunting by 124 votes to 24.
Quite conclusively you might note. You will find some farmers (or accountants) who really hate everything so the key issue was the vote in the Dail.
We need to reunify the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland so the good Irish MPs can outvote the nitwits we have in Westminster.
Most Irish MPs represent rural or semi rural constituencies, most UK MPs represent big city, suburban or large town constituencies is probably the main difference.
Though yes well done the Dail for voting to keep fox hunting unlike Westminster and Holyrood
Bloody funny 'most', given the population is 65% urban.
37% of the Irish population lives in rural areas, above the European average and UK average (in the UK only 20% live in rural areas) and over half of Irish constituencies contain at least a portion of rural area in them
Yet another reason, along with the history of previous "security guarantees", to think that the next one will also be worthless.
If Trump takes at face value Putin’s spurious claim of the Ukrainian drone attack on his residence, what other made-up excuse he would take at face value once Russia decides to break a peace deal and invade again? This may have been the whole point of Putin’s successful psy-op on Trump today, actually. https://x.com/yarotrof/status/2005730459443949961
This (in addition to the obvious point that Putin wants surrender or to keep fighting) is the biggest obstacle to a peace deal. It requires credible US security guarantees and those are by definition (because of that 'credible' caveat) impossible under Donald Trump.
They aren't impossible - but to have any sort of credibility would have to be provided by Europe, and backed by Europe forces alone, and cannot therefore be negotiated by Trump.
I think European view is give the senile traitor what he wants in public and deal with reality away from the camera lights.
He appears to want what Putin does - the surrender of territory in exchange for a mere ceasefire. That's unacceptable.
So a plurality of Tory supporters oppose a trail hunting ban and less than half of Reform voters want to ban it either. The Boxing Day hunt also is a crucial part of village and rural life in areas like where I live. Hundreds turn out on the village green and the pub serves mulled wine as the hunt gathers and for its supporters in rural areas it is a big deal. Even if they have to hunt a trail or drag hunt now not a fox (whose numbers still need to be kept down).
Labour may try and ban trail hunting as most of its supporters want as it banned fox hunting but with Farage and Badenoch opposed to a trail hunting ban, if Labour lose power at the next general election it will be restored
There are perhaps only 170 hunt packs in England so this romanticised notion of every village welcoming its hunt with drinks and applause really needs to be challenged.
My only experience of this was in St Ives (Cornwall) several years ago when the Western Hunt paid the town a visit and it was all very congenial with a few supporters shouting and a small crowd applauding. For most, it was a curiousity and I suppose if there's a purpose to it, it shows urban people an aspect of rural life with which they would otherwise be unfamiliar.
I just think rural communities have a lot more serious issues than the future of the local Hunt.
Those foxhunts are spread across the country from Pembrokeshire to here in rural Essex, from Dumfriesshire to Wensleydale, the Cotswolds and Devon and will of course often stop at more than 1 village on a big hunt day than Boxing Day.
If Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes, what objection would hunts have to converting to Drag hunting? There doesn't seem to be one.
Also you keep bringing up the hunts keep the fox numbers down. If Trail hunts don't kill foxes how do they do that?
Also when fox hunts were allowed to kill they did not keep numbers down because that is not how Fox territories work. if you want I can go through the numbers for you but a simple example is to compare the City Fox to the Rural Fox. The City Fox has a much much much smaller territory than a Rural Fox (the territory is not controlled by extermination but food supply). Yet the City Fox is effectively hunted and relentlessly so by the car. It is the major form of death for City Foxes and the average life span for a City Fox is 12 - 18 months but 3 years for a Rural Fox with some living up to 8 years.
So although the City Fox is culled and far more efficiently than a hunt its numbers are far greater. That is because food supply and not hunting is the determinant of the number of foxes.
Hunts used to kill 20 - 25,000 foxes a year. About 1.500,000 - 2,000,000 foxes are born each year. A killed foxes territory is simply taken over by another pair of foxes who will now breed. Foxes die of lots of things. A hunt was well down the list.
With fox hunting, at least they could see a benefit to a load of dogs and horses trampling all over the place. What's the benefit of trail or drag hunting?
So a plurality of Tory supporters oppose a trail hunting ban and less than half of Reform voters want to ban it either. The Boxing Day hunt also is a crucial part of village and rural life in areas like where I live. Hundreds turn out on the village green and the pub serves mulled wine as the hunt gathers and for its supporters in rural areas it is a big deal. Even if they have to hunt a trail or drag hunt now not a fox (whose numbers still need to be kept down).
Labour may try and ban trail hunting as most of its supporters want as it banned fox hunting but with Farage and Badenoch opposed to a trail hunting ban, if Labour lose power at the next general election it will be restored
There are perhaps only 170 hunt packs in England so this romanticised notion of every village welcoming its hunt with drinks and applause really needs to be challenged.
My only experience of this was in St Ives (Cornwall) several years ago when the Western Hunt paid the town a visit and it was all very congenial with a few supporters shouting and a small crowd applauding. For most, it was a curiousity and I suppose if there's a purpose to it, it shows urban people an aspect of rural life with which they would otherwise be unfamiliar.
I just think rural communities have a lot more serious issues than the future of the local Hunt.
Those foxhunts are spread across the country from Pembrokeshire to here in rural Essex, from Dumfriesshire to Wensleydale, the Cotswolds and Devon and will of course often stop at more than 1 village on a big hunt day than Boxing Day.
If Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes, what objection would hunts have to converting to Drag hunting? There doesn't seem to be one.
Also you keep bringing up the hunts keep the fox numbers down. If Trail hunts don't kill foxes how do they do that?
Also when fox hunts were allowed to kill they did not keep numbers down because that is not how Fox territories work. if you want I can go through the numbers for you but a simple example is to compare the City Fox to the Rural Fox. The City Fox has a much much much smaller territory than a Rural Fox (the territory is not controlled by extermination but food supply). Yet the City Office is effectively hunted and relentlessly so by the car. It is the major form of death for City Foxes and the average life span for a City Fox is 12 - 18 months but 3 years for a Rural Fox with some living up to 8 years.
So although the City Fox is culled and far more efficiently than a hunt its numbers are far greater. That is because food supply and not hunting is the determinant of the number of foxes.
Hunts used to kill 20 - 25,000 foxes a year. About 1.500,000 - 2,000,000 foxes are born each year. A killed foxes territory is simply taken over by another pair of foxes who will now breed.
If Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes why does it need to be banned?
Trail hunting also follows an animal based not artificial scent so is closer to the traditional sport of fox hunting Labour banned.
Personally I would never have banned fox hunting and kept the fox numbers down given rural areas have fewer cars than city areas per square foot but we are where we are and it is unlikely to come back. Though we Tories certainly will do all we can to stop trail hunts being banned, in alliance with Farage too it seems on this issue.
I don't really care, know or have a view either way. But haven't Starmer et al got better things for the government to spend their time on? If not, just call a GE now.
They will do anything to avoid tackling the mountain of real problems the country has.
So a plurality of Tory supporters oppose a trail hunting ban and less than half of Reform voters want to ban it either. The Boxing Day hunt also is a crucial part of village and rural life in areas like where I live. Hundreds turn out on the village green and the pub serves mulled wine as the hunt gathers and for its supporters in rural areas it is a big deal. Even if they have to hunt a trail or drag hunt now not a fox (whose numbers still need to be kept down).
Labour may try and ban trail hunting as most of its supporters want as it banned fox hunting but with Farage and Badenoch opposed to a trail hunting ban, if Labour lose power at the next general election it will be restored
There are perhaps only 170 hunt packs in England so this romanticised notion of every village welcoming its hunt with drinks and applause really needs to be challenged.
My only experience of this was in St Ives (Cornwall) several years ago when the Western Hunt paid the town a visit and it was all very congenial with a few supporters shouting and a small crowd applauding. For most, it was a curiousity and I suppose if there's a purpose to it, it shows urban people an aspect of rural life with which they would otherwise be unfamiliar.
I just think rural communities have a lot more serious issues than the future of the local Hunt.
Those foxhunts are spread across the country from Pembrokeshire to here in rural Essex, from Dumfriesshire to Wensleydale, the Cotswolds and Devon and will of course often stop at more than 1 village on a big hunt day than Boxing Day.
If Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes, what objection would hunts have to converting to Drag hunting? There doesn't seem to be one.
Also you keep bringing up the hunts keep the fox numbers down. If Trail hunts don't kill foxes how do they do that?
Also when fox hunts were allowed to kill they did not keep numbers down because that is not how Fox territories work. if you want I can go through the numbers for you but a simple example is to compare the City Fox to the Rural Fox. The City Fox has a much much much smaller territory than a Rural Fox (the territory is not controlled by extermination but food supply). Yet the City Office is effectively hunted and relentlessly so by the car. It is the major form of death for City Foxes and the average life span for a City Fox is 12 - 18 months but 3 years for a Rural Fox with some living up to 8 years.
So although the City Fox is culled and far more efficiently than a hunt its numbers are far greater. That is because food supply and not hunting is the determinant of the number of foxes.
Hunts used to kill 20 - 25,000 foxes a year. About 1.500,000 - 2,000,000 foxes are born each year. A killed foxes territory is simply taken over by another pair of foxes who will now breed.
If Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes why does it need to be banned?
Trail hunting also follows an animal based not artificial scent so is closer to the traditional sport of fox hunting Labour banned
Doh. Because they do kill foxes when they shouldn't. I think that has been shown quite clearly.
Drag hunting uses artificial scents (like aniseed) on a pre-planned route, focusing on equestrian sport and jumping, while trail hunting uses animal-based scents (like fox urine) and mimics traditional hunting.
Drag hunting is a more controlled, legitimate equestrian activity distinct from the controversial trail hunting often used as a cover for illegal hunting.
So to answer your question: The benefit of drag hunting is a harmless equestrian sport providing exercise and the other benefits of taking part in a sport. The "benefit" of trail hunting is providing a cover for illegal hunting.
So a plurality of Tory supporters oppose a trail hunting ban and less than half of Reform voters want to ban it either. The Boxing Day hunt also is a crucial part of village and rural life in areas like where I live. Hundreds turn out on the village green and the pub serves mulled wine as the hunt gathers and for its supporters in rural areas it is a big deal. Even if they have to hunt a trail or drag hunt now not a fox (whose numbers still need to be kept down).
Labour may try and ban trail hunting as most of its supporters want as it banned fox hunting but with Farage and Badenoch opposed to a trail hunting ban, if Labour lose power at the next general election it will be restored
There are perhaps only 170 hunt packs in England so this romanticised notion of every village welcoming its hunt with drinks and applause really needs to be challenged.
My only experience of this was in St Ives (Cornwall) several years ago when the Western Hunt paid the town a visit and it was all very congenial with a few supporters shouting and a small crowd applauding. For most, it was a curiousity and I suppose if there's a purpose to it, it shows urban people an aspect of rural life with which they would otherwise be unfamiliar.
I just think rural communities have a lot more serious issues than the future of the local Hunt.
Those foxhunts are spread across the country from Pembrokeshire to here in rural Essex, from Dumfriesshire to Wensleydale, the Cotswolds and Devon and will of course often stop at more than 1 village on a big hunt day than Boxing Day.
Trail hunting and fox hunting are already banned in Scotland, so presumably those feudal re-enacters in Dumfriesshire are just going out for a cosplaying hack. Unless they’re breaking the law of course!!
Shocking suggestion.
But Lab are planning to ban something on the assumption that the law is being broken. I'm not sure there is another instance in the country where that approach is being taken. Like fining motorists for obeying the speed limit because they could (and of course do) break it.
With fox hunting, at least they could see a benefit to a load of dogs and horses trampling all over the place. What's the benefit of trail or drag hunting?
Its a hunting version of clay pigeon shooting, no real fox is used.
Wonder what the yougov definition of someome who lives rurally is
I know what it is. I'm just pointing out that it essentially means a load of people running around on horseback with dogs in tow for no good reason.
Arguably, the approval figures would have been higher if they'd said 'and they kill lots of those annoying foxes on the quiet.'
Perhaps they think your activities are a load of bollox and wonder WTF you do them for
So a plurality of Tory supporters oppose a trail hunting ban and less than half of Reform voters want to ban it either. The Boxing Day hunt also is a crucial part of village and rural life in areas like where I live. Hundreds turn out on the village green and the pub serves mulled wine as the hunt gathers and for its supporters in rural areas it is a big deal. Even if they have to hunt a trail or drag hunt now not a fox (whose numbers still need to be kept down).
Labour may try and ban trail hunting as most of its supporters want as it banned fox hunting but with Farage and Badenoch opposed to a trail hunting ban, if Labour lose power at the next general election it will be restored
There are perhaps only 170 hunt packs in England so this romanticised notion of every village welcoming its hunt with drinks and applause really needs to be challenged.
My only experience of this was in St Ives (Cornwall) several years ago when the Western Hunt paid the town a visit and it was all very congenial with a few supporters shouting and a small crowd applauding. For most, it was a curiousity and I suppose if there's a purpose to it, it shows urban people an aspect of rural life with which they would otherwise be unfamiliar.
I just think rural communities have a lot more serious issues than the future of the local Hunt.
Those foxhunts are spread across the country from Pembrokeshire to here in rural Essex, from Dumfriesshire to Wensleydale, the Cotswolds and Devon and will of course often stop at more than 1 village on a big hunt day than Boxing Day.
If Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes, what objection would hunts have to converting to Drag hunting? There doesn't seem to be one.
Also you keep bringing up the hunts keep the fox numbers down. If Trail hunts don't kill foxes how do they do that?
Also when fox hunts were allowed to kill they did not keep numbers down because that is not how Fox territories work. if you want I can go through the numbers for you but a simple example is to compare the City Fox to the Rural Fox. The City Fox has a much much much smaller territory than a Rural Fox (the territory is not controlled by extermination but food supply). Yet the City Office is effectively hunted and relentlessly so by the car. It is the major form of death for City Foxes and the average life span for a City Fox is 12 - 18 months but 3 years for a Rural Fox with some living up to 8 years.
So although the City Fox is culled and far more efficiently than a hunt its numbers are far greater. That is because food supply and not hunting is the determinant of the number of foxes.
Hunts used to kill 20 - 25,000 foxes a year. About 1.500,000 - 2,000,000 foxes are born each year. A killed foxes territory is simply taken over by another pair of foxes who will now breed.
If Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes why does it need to be banned?
Trail hunting also follows an animal based not artificial scent so is closer to the traditional sport of fox hunting Labour banned
Doh. Because they do kill foxes when they shouldn't. I think that has been shown quite clearly.
Which was of course the original purpose of the hunt until Labour in its class war banned it
Yet more squirrel politics. We need some grown up leadership who can focus on things that actually matter.
I wouldn't mind seeing the polling on hunting grey squirrels back off the mainland.
Irritating little American bastards, they are.
The evidence appears to be that if you improve habitats to encourage the return of arboreal predators, like polecats, then the greys get pushed out of an area.
I love polecats, but only ever see them when cycling in France. I believe studies have shown they can catch grey squirrels easily, but not reds so an ideal species to reintroduce down south, which I believe they are doing.
Drag hunting uses artificial scents (like aniseed) on a pre-planned route, focusing on equestrian sport and jumping, while trail hunting uses animal-based scents (like fox urine) and mimics traditional hunting.
Drag hunting is a more controlled, legitimate equestrian activity distinct from the controversial trail hunting often used as a cover for illegal hunting.
So to answer your question: The benefit of drag hunting is a harmless equestrian sport providing exercise and the other benefits of taking part in a sport. The "benefit" of trail hunting is providing a cover for illegal hunting.
Thanks for that. I live in a very rural area and I didn't know the distinction between the two. Is the proposal to ban both drag and trail or just trail?
Personally I support the ban on fox hunting. I would also support a ban on trail.hunting as you have explained it. I would not support a ban on drag hunting under those definitions.
I also have to say red coat hunting plays no part at all in the life of my rural community. I have never seen any sign of a hunt in the 17 years I have lived here.
Shooting in its various forms is however a big part of rural life round here
Shooting tends to be of pheasants, grouse etc and organised with often wealthy city types paying farmers and landowners to shoot on their land.
Trail hunts though tend to involve all sections of the rural community
Nope. That is one form.of shooting but certainly not the only one nor even the norm. In many rural areas shooting is in the form.of 'walking up' and is very different from the driven shoots you are referring to. Very few non locals and all the birds are taken for food.
Given that they could use aniseed rather than animal scent, it's clearly just a ruse to continue actual fox hunting, do a ban seems justified. The actual control measure for fox numbers would seem to be the motor car. We have plenty of foxes in my urban area and they don't cause an issue if you secure your bins properly. Given I've seen the cubs being taught to raid bins while surrounded by grazing rabbits, I doubt they can be bothered with chickens either.
So a plurality of Tory supporters oppose a trail hunting ban and less than half of Reform voters want to ban it either. The Boxing Day hunt also is a crucial part of village and rural life in areas like where I live. Hundreds turn out on the village green and the pub serves mulled wine as the hunt gathers and for its supporters in rural areas it is a big deal. Even if they have to hunt a trail or drag hunt now not a fox (whose numbers still need to be kept down).
Labour may try and ban trail hunting as most of its supporters want as it banned fox hunting but with Farage and Badenoch opposed to a trail hunting ban, if Labour lose power at the next general election it will be restored
There are perhaps only 170 hunt packs in England so this romanticised notion of every village welcoming its hunt with drinks and applause really needs to be challenged.
My only experience of this was in St Ives (Cornwall) several years ago when the Western Hunt paid the town a visit and it was all very congenial with a few supporters shouting and a small crowd applauding. For most, it was a curiousity and I suppose if there's a purpose to it, it shows urban people an aspect of rural life with which they would otherwise be unfamiliar.
I just think rural communities have a lot more serious issues than the future of the local Hunt.
Those foxhunts are spread across the country from Pembrokeshire to here in rural Essex, from Dumfriesshire to Wensleydale, the Cotswolds and Devon and will of course often stop at more than 1 village on a big hunt day than Boxing Day.
Trail hunting and fox hunting are already banned in Scotland, so presumably those feudal re-enacters in Dumfriesshire are just going out for a cosplaying hack. Unless they’re breaking the law of course!!
Interesting HYUFD thinks that fox hunting still exists in E&W never mind north of Sark. "Those foxhunts are spread across the country from Pembrokeshire to here in rural Essex, from Dumfriesshire to Wensleydale, the Cotswolds and Devon [...]". Edit: Maybe he's letting the fox out of the bag?
They are still called fox hunts/hounds. For some reason.
Drag hunting uses artificial scents (like aniseed) on a pre-planned route, focusing on equestrian sport and jumping, while trail hunting uses animal-based scents (like fox urine) and mimics traditional hunting.
Drag hunting is a more controlled, legitimate equestrian activity distinct from the controversial trail hunting often used as a cover for illegal hunting.
So to answer your question: The benefit of drag hunting is a harmless equestrian sport providing exercise and the other benefits of taking part in a sport. The "benefit" of trail hunting is providing a cover for illegal hunting.
Thanks for that. I live in a very rural area and I didn't know the distinction between the two. Is the proposal to ban both drag and trail or just trail?
Personally I support the ban on fox hunting. I would also support a ban on trail.hunting as you have explained it. I would not support a ban on drag hunting under those definitions.
I also have to say red coat hunting plays no part at all in the life of my rural community. I have never seen any sign of a hunt in the 17 years I have lived here.
Shooting in its various forms is however a big part of rural life round here
Shooting tends to be of pheasants, grouse etc and organised with often wealthy city types paying farmers and landowners to shoot on their land.
Trail hunts though tend to involve all sections of the rural community
Nope. That is one form.of shooting but certainly not the only one nor even the norm. In many rural areas shooting is in the form.of 'walking up' and is very different from the driven shoots you are referring to. Very few non locals and all the birds are taken for food.
Pheasants and grouse are also often eaten after big shoots
So a plurality of Tory supporters oppose a trail hunting ban and less than half of Reform voters want to ban it either. The Boxing Day hunt also is a crucial part of village and rural life in areas like where I live. Hundreds turn out on the village green and the pub serves mulled wine as the hunt gathers and for its supporters in rural areas it is a big deal. Even if they have to hunt a trail or drag hunt now not a fox (whose numbers still need to be kept down).
Labour may try and ban trail hunting as most of its supporters want as it banned fox hunting but with Farage and Badenoch opposed to a trail hunting ban, if Labour lose power at the next general election it will be restored
There are perhaps only 170 hunt packs in England so this romanticised notion of every village welcoming its hunt with drinks and applause really needs to be challenged.
My only experience of this was in St Ives (Cornwall) several years ago when the Western Hunt paid the town a visit and it was all very congenial with a few supporters shouting and a small crowd applauding. For most, it was a curiousity and I suppose if there's a purpose to it, it shows urban people an aspect of rural life with which they would otherwise be unfamiliar.
I just think rural communities have a lot more serious issues than the future of the local Hunt.
Those foxhunts are spread across the country from Pembrokeshire to here in rural Essex, from Dumfriesshire to Wensleydale, the Cotswolds and Devon and will of course often stop at more than 1 village on a big hunt day than Boxing Day.
If Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes, what objection would hunts have to converting to Drag hunting? There doesn't seem to be one.
Also you keep bringing up the hunts keep the fox numbers down. If Trail hunts don't kill foxes how do they do that?
Also when fox hunts were allowed to kill they did not keep numbers down because that is not how Fox territories work. if you want I can go through the numbers for you but a simple example is to compare the City Fox to the Rural Fox. The City Fox has a much much much smaller territory than a Rural Fox (the territory is not controlled by extermination but food supply). Yet the City Office is effectively hunted and relentlessly so by the car. It is the major form of death for City Foxes and the average life span for a City Fox is 12 - 18 months but 3 years for a Rural Fox with some living up to 8 years.
So although the City Fox is culled and far more efficiently than a hunt its numbers are far greater. That is because food supply and not hunting is the determinant of the number of foxes.
Hunts used to kill 20 - 25,000 foxes a year. About 1.500,000 - 2,000,000 foxes are born each year. A killed foxes territory is simply taken over by another pair of foxes who will now breed.
If Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes why does it need to be banned?
Trail hunting also follows an animal based not artificial scent so is closer to the traditional sport of fox hunting Labour banned
Doh. Because they do kill foxes when they shouldn't. I think that has been shown quite clearly.
Which was of course the original purpose of the hunt until Labour in its class war banned it
I suspect it's becoming arguable that we should re-introduce deer hunting round here; both native species and muntjac are beginning to become pests. Guns, though, I think. Not packs of dogs.
Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-Ga.) claimed in a New York Times profile that President Trump said his “friends will get hurt” by exposing abusers connected to convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein.
According to the story told by Greene, she received a call from Trump after she said at a news conference that she would expose the names of men who abused victims of Epstein. The news conference came after a House Oversight and Government Reform Committee closed-door meeting with women victimized by Epstein.
Greene said Trump called her after the news conference to express his unhappiness. The Times reported that people could hear Trump yelling at Greene as she talked to him over a speakerphone.
The friends business is interesting as it gets us one step closer to finding out who the on/off Epstein dump is trying to protect. I've previously argued here that it cannot be Trump himself but must be a hitherto low-key figure aligned to him in some way.
So a plurality of Tory supporters oppose a trail hunting ban and less than half of Reform voters want to ban it either. The Boxing Day hunt also is a crucial part of village and rural life in areas like where I live. Hundreds turn out on the village green and the pub serves mulled wine as the hunt gathers and for its supporters in rural areas it is a big deal. Even if they have to hunt a trail or drag hunt now not a fox (whose numbers still need to be kept down).
Labour may try and ban trail hunting as most of its supporters want as it banned fox hunting but with Farage and Badenoch opposed to a trail hunting ban, if Labour lose power at the next general election it will be restored
There are perhaps only 170 hunt packs in England so this romanticised notion of every village welcoming its hunt with drinks and applause really needs to be challenged.
My only experience of this was in St Ives (Cornwall) several years ago when the Western Hunt paid the town a visit and it was all very congenial with a few supporters shouting and a small crowd applauding. For most, it was a curiousity and I suppose if there's a purpose to it, it shows urban people an aspect of rural life with which they would otherwise be unfamiliar.
I just think rural communities have a lot more serious issues than the future of the local Hunt.
Those foxhunts are spread across the country from Pembrokeshire to here in rural Essex, from Dumfriesshire to Wensleydale, the Cotswolds and Devon and will of course often stop at more than 1 village on a big hunt day than Boxing Day.
If Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes, what objection would hunts have to converting to Drag hunting? There doesn't seem to be one.
Also you keep bringing up the hunts keep the fox numbers down. If Trail hunts don't kill foxes how do they do that?
Also when fox hunts were allowed to kill they did not keep numbers down because that is not how Fox territories work. if you want I can go through the numbers for you but a simple example is to compare the City Fox to the Rural Fox. The City Fox has a much much much smaller territory than a Rural Fox (the territory is not controlled by extermination but food supply). Yet the City Office is effectively hunted and relentlessly so by the car. It is the major form of death for City Foxes and the average life span for a City Fox is 12 - 18 months but 3 years for a Rural Fox with some living up to 8 years.
So although the City Fox is culled and far more efficiently than a hunt its numbers are far greater. That is because food supply and not hunting is the determinant of the number of foxes.
Hunts used to kill 20 - 25,000 foxes a year. About 1.500,000 - 2,000,000 foxes are born each year. A killed foxes territory is simply taken over by another pair of foxes who will now breed.
If Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes why does it need to be banned?
Trail hunting also follows an animal based not artificial scent so is closer to the traditional sport of fox hunting Labour banned
Doh. Because they do kill foxes when they shouldn't. I think that has been shown quite clearly.
Which was of course the original purpose of the hunt until Labour in its class war banned it
Hang on, we are going around in circles here. I assume you are saying the original purpose of the hunt was killing foxes. Well obviously. But if you can get the enjoyment and spectacle without killing foxes then what is the problem.
And if you say to control fox numbers I am likely to punch a wall because:
a) Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes anyway (so what is your point in not moving to drag hunting where you can get the same enjoyment and definitely not kill a fox)) b) Fox hunting did not control numbers. See my post where I showed that.
Reporter: Did Putin agree to a ceasefire to allow a referendum?
Trump: Not a ceasefire. He feels that look, you know, they're fighting and to stop. And then if they have to start again, which is a possibility, he doesn't want to be in that position. I understand that position. I understand Putin from that standpoint.
With fox hunting, at least they could see a benefit to a load of dogs and horses trampling all over the place. What's the benefit of trail or drag hunting?
What's the benefit of lacrosse, ludo or chess? Traditional trail hounds have been around for centuries. No horses, no foxes, but just racing dogs around a trail. Dogs seem to like running around after things.
What's the benefit of any sport? What's the benefit of cricket?
I can see the benefit of beach volleyball but cricket!!
I suspect it attracts people on the spectrum who like data but not a lot of disturbing action.
So a plurality of Tory supporters oppose a trail hunting ban and less than half of Reform voters want to ban it either. The Boxing Day hunt also is a crucial part of village and rural life in areas like where I live. Hundreds turn out on the village green and the pub serves mulled wine as the hunt gathers and for its supporters in rural areas it is a big deal. Even if they have to hunt a trail or drag hunt now not a fox (whose numbers still need to be kept down).
Labour may try and ban trail hunting as most of its supporters want as it banned fox hunting but with Farage and Badenoch opposed to a trail hunting ban, if Labour lose power at the next general election it will be restored
There are perhaps only 170 hunt packs in England so this romanticised notion of every village welcoming its hunt with drinks and applause really needs to be challenged.
My only experience of this was in St Ives (Cornwall) several years ago when the Western Hunt paid the town a visit and it was all very congenial with a few supporters shouting and a small crowd applauding. For most, it was a curiousity and I suppose if there's a purpose to it, it shows urban people an aspect of rural life with which they would otherwise be unfamiliar.
I just think rural communities have a lot more serious issues than the future of the local Hunt.
Those foxhunts are spread across the country from Pembrokeshire to here in rural Essex, from Dumfriesshire to Wensleydale, the Cotswolds and Devon and will of course often stop at more than 1 village on a big hunt day than Boxing Day.
If Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes, what objection would hunts have to converting to Drag hunting? There doesn't seem to be one.
Also you keep bringing up the hunts keep the fox numbers down. If Trail hunts don't kill foxes how do they do that?
Also when fox hunts were allowed to kill they did not keep numbers down because that is not how Fox territories work. if you want I can go through the numbers for you but a simple example is to compare the City Fox to the Rural Fox. The City Fox has a much much much smaller territory than a Rural Fox (the territory is not controlled by extermination but food supply). Yet the City Office is effectively hunted and relentlessly so by the car. It is the major form of death for City Foxes and the average life span for a City Fox is 12 - 18 months but 3 years for a Rural Fox with some living up to 8 years.
So although the City Fox is culled and far more efficiently than a hunt its numbers are far greater. That is because food supply and not hunting is the determinant of the number of foxes.
Hunts used to kill 20 - 25,000 foxes a year. About 1.500,000 - 2,000,000 foxes are born each year. A killed foxes territory is simply taken over by another pair of foxes who will now breed.
If Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes why does it need to be banned?
Trail hunting also follows an animal based not artificial scent so is closer to the traditional sport of fox hunting Labour banned
Doh. Because they do kill foxes when they shouldn't. I think that has been shown quite clearly.
Which was of course the original purpose of the hunt until Labour in its class war banned it
Hang on, we are going around in circles here. I assume you are saying the original purpose of the hunt was killing foxes. Well obviously. But if you can get the enjoyment and spectacle without killing foxes then what is the problem.
And if you say to control fox numbers I am likely to punch a wall because:
a) Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes anyway (so what is your point in not moving to drag hunting where you can get the same enjoyment and definitely not kill a fox)) b) Fox hunting did not control numbers. See my post where I showed that.
You can do that with trail hunting on the whole, it is just another act of Labour class war as usual.
Trail hunting probably does kill more foxes than drag hunting as it uses an animal scent and similar trails to fox hunts, even if those kills are not intentional. So it likely controls fox numbers more than drag hunts do
So a plurality of Tory supporters oppose a trail hunting ban and less than half of Reform voters want to ban it either. The Boxing Day hunt also is a crucial part of village and rural life in areas like where I live. Hundreds turn out on the village green and the pub serves mulled wine as the hunt gathers and for its supporters in rural areas it is a big deal. Even if they have to hunt a trail or drag hunt now not a fox (whose numbers still need to be kept down).
Labour may try and ban trail hunting as most of its supporters want as it banned fox hunting but with Farage and Badenoch opposed to a trail hunting ban, if Labour lose power at the next general election it will be restored
There are perhaps only 170 hunt packs in England so this romanticised notion of every village welcoming its hunt with drinks and applause really needs to be challenged.
My only experience of this was in St Ives (Cornwall) several years ago when the Western Hunt paid the town a visit and it was all very congenial with a few supporters shouting and a small crowd applauding. For most, it was a curiousity and I suppose if there's a purpose to it, it shows urban people an aspect of rural life with which they would otherwise be unfamiliar.
I just think rural communities have a lot more serious issues than the future of the local Hunt.
Those foxhunts are spread across the country from Pembrokeshire to here in rural Essex, from Dumfriesshire to Wensleydale, the Cotswolds and Devon and will of course often stop at more than 1 village on a big hunt day than Boxing Day.
If Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes, what objection would hunts have to converting to Drag hunting? There doesn't seem to be one.
Also you keep bringing up the hunts keep the fox numbers down. If Trail hunts don't kill foxes how do they do that?
Also when fox hunts were allowed to kill they did not keep numbers down because that is not how Fox territories work. if you want I can go through the numbers for you but a simple example is to compare the City Fox to the Rural Fox. The City Fox has a much much much smaller territory than a Rural Fox (the territory is not controlled by extermination but food supply). Yet the City Office is effectively hunted and relentlessly so by the car. It is the major form of death for City Foxes and the average life span for a City Fox is 12 - 18 months but 3 years for a Rural Fox with some living up to 8 years.
So although the City Fox is culled and far more efficiently than a hunt its numbers are far greater. That is because food supply and not hunting is the determinant of the number of foxes.
Hunts used to kill 20 - 25,000 foxes a year. About 1.500,000 - 2,000,000 foxes are born each year. A killed foxes territory is simply taken over by another pair of foxes who will now breed.
If Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes why does it need to be banned?
Trail hunting also follows an animal based not artificial scent so is closer to the traditional sport of fox hunting Labour banned
Doh. Because they do kill foxes when they shouldn't. I think that has been shown quite clearly.
Which was of course the original purpose of the hunt until Labour in its class war banned it
I suspect it's becoming arguable that we should re-introduce deer hunting round here; both native species and muntjac are beginning to become pests. Guns, though, I think. Not packs of dogs.
Plenty of deer shot and venison eaten in the Highlands of Scotland
Did the pollster actually discuss what “trail hunting” means?
Labour just hate the red jackets, and will oppose whatever they want to do on Boxing Day.
Yes, look at the graphic.
"Trail hunting" is the practice of laying a scent trail using a rag soaked in animal scent for hounds and riders on horseback to chase. Advocates say that this allows people to simulate hunts without actually harming an animal, but critics say it is sometimes used as a smokescreen for actual fox hunting. Do you think trail hunting should be made illegal, or should it remain legal?
It is clear from the polling where the public stands on the issue.
However, this question has been phrased in a way that exacerbates the negative outcome. Trail hunting is a simulation of hunting that allows people to hunt without harming an animal. There's no justification for using 'advocates say' there, nor for giving equal weight to 'critics'.
Ai says this:
44 individuals affiliated with organised hunts have been convicted or accepted cautions across 70 completed cases since 2005—approximately 3.9 cases per year.
That's a ludicrously low figure over 20+ years, and this is desperate stuff from the least popular Government ever.
So a plurality of Tory supporters oppose a trail hunting ban and less than half of Reform voters want to ban it either. The Boxing Day hunt also is a crucial part of village and rural life in areas like where I live. Hundreds turn out on the village green and the pub serves mulled wine as the hunt gathers and for its supporters in rural areas it is a big deal. Even if they have to hunt a trail or drag hunt now not a fox (whose numbers still need to be kept down).
Labour may try and ban trail hunting as most of its supporters want as it banned fox hunting but with Farage and Badenoch opposed to a trail hunting ban, if Labour lose power at the next general election it will be restored
There are perhaps only 170 hunt packs in England so this romanticised notion of every village welcoming its hunt with drinks and applause really needs to be challenged.
My only experience of this was in St Ives (Cornwall) several years ago when the Western Hunt paid the town a visit and it was all very congenial with a few supporters shouting and a small crowd applauding. For most, it was a curiousity and I suppose if there's a purpose to it, it shows urban people an aspect of rural life with which they would otherwise be unfamiliar.
I just think rural communities have a lot more serious issues than the future of the local Hunt.
Those foxhunts are spread across the country from Pembrokeshire to here in rural Essex, from Dumfriesshire to Wensleydale, the Cotswolds and Devon and will of course often stop at more than 1 village on a big hunt day than Boxing Day.
If Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes, what objection would hunts have to converting to Drag hunting? There doesn't seem to be one.
Also you keep bringing up the hunts keep the fox numbers down. If Trail hunts don't kill foxes how do they do that?
Also when fox hunts were allowed to kill they did not keep numbers down because that is not how Fox territories work. if you want I can go through the numbers for you but a simple example is to compare the City Fox to the Rural Fox. The City Fox has a much much much smaller territory than a Rural Fox (the territory is not controlled by extermination but food supply). Yet the City Office is effectively hunted and relentlessly so by the car. It is the major form of death for City Foxes and the average life span for a City Fox is 12 - 18 months but 3 years for a Rural Fox with some living up to 8 years.
So although the City Fox is culled and far more efficiently than a hunt its numbers are far greater. That is because food supply and not hunting is the determinant of the number of foxes.
Hunts used to kill 20 - 25,000 foxes a year. About 1.500,000 - 2,000,000 foxes are born each year. A killed foxes territory is simply taken over by another pair of foxes who will now breed.
If Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes why does it need to be banned?
Trail hunting also follows an animal based not artificial scent so is closer to the traditional sport of fox hunting Labour banned
Doh. Because they do kill foxes when they shouldn't. I think that has been shown quite clearly.
Which was of course the original purpose of the hunt until Labour in its class war banned it
Hang on, we are going around in circles here. I assume you are saying the original purpose of the hunt was killing foxes. Well obviously. But if you can get the enjoyment and spectacle without killing foxes then what is the problem.
And if you say to control fox numbers I am likely to punch a wall because:
a) Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes anyway (so what is your point in not moving to drag hunting where you can get the same enjoyment and definitely not kill a fox)) b) Fox hunting did not control numbers. See my post where I showed that.
Some sick fuckers enjoy seeing animals suffer.
That is what fox hunting is all about.
I am surprised that a follower of the teachings of Jesus, such as HY, is on the side of cruelty.
So a plurality of Tory supporters oppose a trail hunting ban and less than half of Reform voters want to ban it either. The Boxing Day hunt also is a crucial part of village and rural life in areas like where I live. Hundreds turn out on the village green and the pub serves mulled wine as the hunt gathers and for its supporters in rural areas it is a big deal. Even if they have to hunt a trail or drag hunt now not a fox (whose numbers still need to be kept down).
Labour may try and ban trail hunting as most of its supporters want as it banned fox hunting but with Farage and Badenoch opposed to a trail hunting ban, if Labour lose power at the next general election it will be restored
There are perhaps only 170 hunt packs in England so this romanticised notion of every village welcoming its hunt with drinks and applause really needs to be challenged.
My only experience of this was in St Ives (Cornwall) several years ago when the Western Hunt paid the town a visit and it was all very congenial with a few supporters shouting and a small crowd applauding. For most, it was a curiousity and I suppose if there's a purpose to it, it shows urban people an aspect of rural life with which they would otherwise be unfamiliar.
I just think rural communities have a lot more serious issues than the future of the local Hunt.
But why are they being attacked like this? I agree it doesn't deserve any attention - so why not just f**k off and leave them to it?
So a plurality of Tory supporters oppose a trail hunting ban and less than half of Reform voters want to ban it either. The Boxing Day hunt also is a crucial part of village and rural life in areas like where I live. Hundreds turn out on the village green and the pub serves mulled wine as the hunt gathers and for its supporters in rural areas it is a big deal. Even if they have to hunt a trail or drag hunt now not a fox (whose numbers still need to be kept down).
Labour may try and ban trail hunting as most of its supporters want as it banned fox hunting but with Farage and Badenoch opposed to a trail hunting ban, if Labour lose power at the next general election it will be restored
There are perhaps only 170 hunt packs in England so this romanticised notion of every village welcoming its hunt with drinks and applause really needs to be challenged.
My only experience of this was in St Ives (Cornwall) several years ago when the Western Hunt paid the town a visit and it was all very congenial with a few supporters shouting and a small crowd applauding. For most, it was a curiousity and I suppose if there's a purpose to it, it shows urban people an aspect of rural life with which they would otherwise be unfamiliar.
I just think rural communities have a lot more serious issues than the future of the local Hunt.
Those foxhunts are spread across the country from Pembrokeshire to here in rural Essex, from Dumfriesshire to Wensleydale, the Cotswolds and Devon and will of course often stop at more than 1 village on a big hunt day than Boxing Day.
If Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes, what objection would hunts have to converting to Drag hunting? There doesn't seem to be one.
Also you keep bringing up the hunts keep the fox numbers down. If Trail hunts don't kill foxes how do they do that?
Also when fox hunts were allowed to kill they did not keep numbers down because that is not how Fox territories work. if you want I can go through the numbers for you but a simple example is to compare the City Fox to the Rural Fox. The City Fox has a much much much smaller territory than a Rural Fox (the territory is not controlled by extermination but food supply). Yet the City Office is effectively hunted and relentlessly so by the car. It is the major form of death for City Foxes and the average life span for a City Fox is 12 - 18 months but 3 years for a Rural Fox with some living up to 8 years.
So although the City Fox is culled and far more efficiently than a hunt its numbers are far greater. That is because food supply and not hunting is the determinant of the number of foxes.
Hunts used to kill 20 - 25,000 foxes a year. About 1.500,000 - 2,000,000 foxes are born each year. A killed foxes territory is simply taken over by another pair of foxes who will now breed.
If Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes why does it need to be banned?
Trail hunting also follows an animal based not artificial scent so is closer to the traditional sport of fox hunting Labour banned
Doh. Because they do kill foxes when they shouldn't. I think that has been shown quite clearly.
Which was of course the original purpose of the hunt until Labour in its class war banned it
Hang on, we are going around in circles here. I assume you are saying the original purpose of the hunt was killing foxes. Well obviously. But if you can get the enjoyment and spectacle without killing foxes then what is the problem.
And if you say to control fox numbers I am likely to punch a wall because:
a) Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes anyway (so what is your point in not moving to drag hunting where you can get the same enjoyment and definitely not kill a fox)) b) Fox hunting did not control numbers. See my post where I showed that.
You can do that with trail hunting on the whole, it is just another act of Labour class war as usual.
Trail hunting probably does kill more foxes than drag hunting as it uses an animal scent and similar trails to fox hunts, even if those kills are not intentional. So it likely controls fox numbers more than drag hunts do
You can't control fox numbers with a few accidental deaths. I'm not in favour of banning things without very good cause so if asked I'd say keep trail hunting unless very prevalent and deliberate breaking of the law is proved.
I know a lot of people who are very passionate about it but i also know a lot of farmers who hate the hunt as they come crashing through their land with no prior permission and act in a very high handed way about it. My father and his partner are horsey types and can't stand them either locally as they are very cliquey l.
So a plurality of Tory supporters oppose a trail hunting ban and less than half of Reform voters want to ban it either. The Boxing Day hunt also is a crucial part of village and rural life in areas like where I live. Hundreds turn out on the village green and the pub serves mulled wine as the hunt gathers and for its supporters in rural areas it is a big deal. Even if they have to hunt a trail or drag hunt now not a fox (whose numbers still need to be kept down).
Labour may try and ban trail hunting as most of its supporters want as it banned fox hunting but with Farage and Badenoch opposed to a trail hunting ban, if Labour lose power at the next general election it will be restored
There are perhaps only 170 hunt packs in England so this romanticised notion of every village welcoming its hunt with drinks and applause really needs to be challenged.
My only experience of this was in St Ives (Cornwall) several years ago when the Western Hunt paid the town a visit and it was all very congenial with a few supporters shouting and a small crowd applauding. For most, it was a curiousity and I suppose if there's a purpose to it, it shows urban people an aspect of rural life with which they would otherwise be unfamiliar.
I just think rural communities have a lot more serious issues than the future of the local Hunt.
Those foxhunts are spread across the country from Pembrokeshire to here in rural Essex, from Dumfriesshire to Wensleydale, the Cotswolds and Devon and will of course often stop at more than 1 village on a big hunt day than Boxing Day.
If Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes, what objection would hunts have to converting to Drag hunting? There doesn't seem to be one.
Also you keep bringing up the hunts keep the fox numbers down. If Trail hunts don't kill foxes how do they do that?
Also when fox hunts were allowed to kill they did not keep numbers down because that is not how Fox territories work. if you want I can go through the numbers for you but a simple example is to compare the City Fox to the Rural Fox. The City Fox has a much much much smaller territory than a Rural Fox (the territory is not controlled by extermination but food supply). Yet the City Office is effectively hunted and relentlessly so by the car. It is the major form of death for City Foxes and the average life span for a City Fox is 12 - 18 months but 3 years for a Rural Fox with some living up to 8 years.
So although the City Fox is culled and far more efficiently than a hunt its numbers are far greater. That is because food supply and not hunting is the determinant of the number of foxes.
Hunts used to kill 20 - 25,000 foxes a year. About 1.500,000 - 2,000,000 foxes are born each year. A killed foxes territory is simply taken over by another pair of foxes who will now breed.
If Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes why does it need to be banned?
Trail hunting also follows an animal based not artificial scent so is closer to the traditional sport of fox hunting Labour banned
Doh. Because they do kill foxes when they shouldn't. I think that has been shown quite clearly.
Which was of course the original purpose of the hunt until Labour in its class war banned it
Hang on, we are going around in circles here. I assume you are saying the original purpose of the hunt was killing foxes. Well obviously. But if you can get the enjoyment and spectacle without killing foxes then what is the problem.
And if you say to control fox numbers I am likely to punch a wall because:
a) Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes anyway (so what is your point in not moving to drag hunting where you can get the same enjoyment and definitely not kill a fox)) b) Fox hunting did not control numbers. See my post where I showed that.
Some sick fuckers enjoy seeing animals suffer.
That is what fox hunting is all about.
I am surprised that a follower of the teachings of Jesus, such as HY, is on the side of cruelty.
Yes foxes, lovely cuddly things, never rip rabbits and chickens to pieces and kill lambs, certainly not
Did the pollster actually discuss what “trail hunting” means?
Labour just hate the red jackets, and will oppose whatever they want to do on Boxing Day.
Yes, look at the graphic.
"Trail hunting" is the practice of laying a scent trail using a rag soaked in animal scent for hounds and riders on horseback to chase. Advocates say that this allows people to simulate hunts without actually harming an animal, but critics say it is sometimes used as a smokescreen for actual fox hunting. Do you think trail hunting should be made illegal, or should it remain legal?
It is clear from the polling where the public stands on the issue.
However, this question has been phrased in a way that exacerbates the negative outcome. Trail hunting is a simulation of hunting that allows people to hunt without harming an animal. There's no justification for using 'advocates say' there, nor for giving equal weight to 'critics'.
Ai says this:
44 individuals affiliated with organised hunts have been convicted or accepted cautions across 70 completed cases since 2005—approximately 3.9 cases per year.
That's a ludicrously low figure over 20+ years, and this is desperate stuff from the least popular Government ever.
Well, it either means that most hunts are law-abiding folks, or that getting a conviction is incredibly difficult with limited rural policing. If raptor persecution is anything to go by, it's the latter.
So a plurality of Tory supporters oppose a trail hunting ban and less than half of Reform voters want to ban it either. The Boxing Day hunt also is a crucial part of village and rural life in areas like where I live. Hundreds turn out on the village green and the pub serves mulled wine as the hunt gathers and for its supporters in rural areas it is a big deal. Even if they have to hunt a trail or drag hunt now not a fox (whose numbers still need to be kept down).
Labour may try and ban trail hunting as most of its supporters want as it banned fox hunting but with Farage and Badenoch opposed to a trail hunting ban, if Labour lose power at the next general election it will be restored
There are perhaps only 170 hunt packs in England so this romanticised notion of every village welcoming its hunt with drinks and applause really needs to be challenged.
My only experience of this was in St Ives (Cornwall) several years ago when the Western Hunt paid the town a visit and it was all very congenial with a few supporters shouting and a small crowd applauding. For most, it was a curiousity and I suppose if there's a purpose to it, it shows urban people an aspect of rural life with which they would otherwise be unfamiliar.
I just think rural communities have a lot more serious issues than the future of the local Hunt.
But why are they being attacked like this? I agree it doesn't deserve any attention - so why not just f**k off and leave them to it?
As Tories are most likely to practice and support trail hunts so this is enough Starmer bit of redmeat to his Labour backbenchers, like the Mansion tax, increased tax on landlords income and family farm and family business tax was
Given that they could use aniseed rather than animal scent, it's clearly just a ruse to continue actual fox hunting, do a ban seems justified. The actual control measure for fox numbers would seem to be the motor car. We have plenty of foxes in my urban area and they don't cause an issue if you secure your bins properly. Given I've seen the cubs being taught to raid bins while surrounded by grazing rabbits, I doubt they can be bothered with chickens either.
Sadly you would be wrong on that. We have to have our chickens heavily protected with wire mesh. Foxes and Buzzards are an equal problem.
That said, it is still no excuse for killing either of the predators. It just needs more thought and attention given to protection of the chickens.
Perhaps, talking of buzzards, a related question for any PB bird experts - when I'm in the park with the dog, they like to hover over the bank down to the seashore looking for prey - but several times over recent weeks I have seen both crows and seagulls dive-bombing the buzzards to prevent them hunting and drive them away. Surprisingly, the buzzard, despite being larger and presumably better equipped for fighting, doesn't try to fight back but tries to keep on hunting, before eventually giving up and moving somewhere else. At this time of year birds don't have nests to protect, so this behaviour seems odd?
Well organised rooks will always drive off buzzards and Kites. On the edge of the woods adjacent to my land they will form a picket line of half a dozen rooks spaced maybe 30 yards apart and will ambush any predators attempting to approach the rookery.
Fox numbers need to be controlled. Go to a larger shoot and you won't (or shouldn't) see a fox. So one way or another the fox gets it.
According to the Burns Inquiry, fox hunting with hounds was not proven to be cruel. Although the fox's welfare was compromised (I'll say).
But that argument was fought and lost (or won) years ago. Now the concern is that trail hunting is a smokescreen for fox hunting. And if it is or if it isn't, banning something because it might be used to do something illegal is weird. You might as well ban cars that travel over 70mph.
So a plurality of Tory supporters oppose a trail hunting ban and less than half of Reform voters want to ban it either. The Boxing Day hunt also is a crucial part of village and rural life in areas like where I live. Hundreds turn out on the village green and the pub serves mulled wine as the hunt gathers and for its supporters in rural areas it is a big deal. Even if they have to hunt a trail or drag hunt now not a fox (whose numbers still need to be kept down).
Labour may try and ban trail hunting as most of its supporters want as it banned fox hunting but with Farage and Badenoch opposed to a trail hunting ban, if Labour lose power at the next general election it will be restored
There are perhaps only 170 hunt packs in England so this romanticised notion of every village welcoming its hunt with drinks and applause really needs to be challenged.
My only experience of this was in St Ives (Cornwall) several years ago when the Western Hunt paid the town a visit and it was all very congenial with a few supporters shouting and a small crowd applauding. For most, it was a curiousity and I suppose if there's a purpose to it, it shows urban people an aspect of rural life with which they would otherwise be unfamiliar.
I just think rural communities have a lot more serious issues than the future of the local Hunt.
Those foxhunts are spread across the country from Pembrokeshire to here in rural Essex, from Dumfriesshire to Wensleydale, the Cotswolds and Devon and will of course often stop at more than 1 village on a big hunt day than Boxing Day.
If Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes, what objection would hunts have to converting to Drag hunting? There doesn't seem to be one.
Also you keep bringing up the hunts keep the fox numbers down. If Trail hunts don't kill foxes how do they do that?
Also when fox hunts were allowed to kill they did not keep numbers down because that is not how Fox territories work. if you want I can go through the numbers for you but a simple example is to compare the City Fox to the Rural Fox. The City Fox has a much much much smaller territory than a Rural Fox (the territory is not controlled by extermination but food supply). Yet the City Office is effectively hunted and relentlessly so by the car. It is the major form of death for City Foxes and the average life span for a City Fox is 12 - 18 months but 3 years for a Rural Fox with some living up to 8 years.
So although the City Fox is culled and far more efficiently than a hunt its numbers are far greater. That is because food supply and not hunting is the determinant of the number of foxes.
Hunts used to kill 20 - 25,000 foxes a year. About 1.500,000 - 2,000,000 foxes are born each year. A killed foxes territory is simply taken over by another pair of foxes who will now breed.
If Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes why does it need to be banned?
Trail hunting also follows an animal based not artificial scent so is closer to the traditional sport of fox hunting Labour banned
Doh. Because they do kill foxes when they shouldn't. I think that has been shown quite clearly.
Doh, cars kill hundreds of times the amount that the odd trail hunting will and is shown far more clearly than the dodgy Labour guesses on trail hunting.
So a plurality of Tory supporters oppose a trail hunting ban and less than half of Reform voters want to ban it either. The Boxing Day hunt also is a crucial part of village and rural life in areas like where I live. Hundreds turn out on the village green and the pub serves mulled wine as the hunt gathers and for its supporters in rural areas it is a big deal. Even if they have to hunt a trail or drag hunt now not a fox (whose numbers still need to be kept down).
Labour may try and ban trail hunting as most of its supporters want as it banned fox hunting but with Farage and Badenoch opposed to a trail hunting ban, if Labour lose power at the next general election it will be restored
There are perhaps only 170 hunt packs in England so this romanticised notion of every village welcoming its hunt with drinks and applause really needs to be challenged.
My only experience of this was in St Ives (Cornwall) several years ago when the Western Hunt paid the town a visit and it was all very congenial with a few supporters shouting and a small crowd applauding. For most, it was a curiousity and I suppose if there's a purpose to it, it shows urban people an aspect of rural life with which they would otherwise be unfamiliar.
I just think rural communities have a lot more serious issues than the future of the local Hunt.
Those foxhunts are spread across the country from Pembrokeshire to here in rural Essex, from Dumfriesshire to Wensleydale, the Cotswolds and Devon and will of course often stop at more than 1 village on a big hunt day than Boxing Day.
If Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes, what objection would hunts have to converting to Drag hunting? There doesn't seem to be one.
Also you keep bringing up the hunts keep the fox numbers down. If Trail hunts don't kill foxes how do they do that?
Also when fox hunts were allowed to kill they did not keep numbers down because that is not how Fox territories work. if you want I can go through the numbers for you but a simple example is to compare the City Fox to the Rural Fox. The City Fox has a much much much smaller territory than a Rural Fox (the territory is not controlled by extermination but food supply). Yet the City Office is effectively hunted and relentlessly so by the car. It is the major form of death for City Foxes and the average life span for a City Fox is 12 - 18 months but 3 years for a Rural Fox with some living up to 8 years.
So although the City Fox is culled and far more efficiently than a hunt its numbers are far greater. That is because food supply and not hunting is the determinant of the number of foxes.
Hunts used to kill 20 - 25,000 foxes a year. About 1.500,000 - 2,000,000 foxes are born each year. A killed foxes territory is simply taken over by another pair of foxes who will now breed.
If Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes why does it need to be banned?
Trail hunting also follows an animal based not artificial scent so is closer to the traditional sport of fox hunting Labour banned
Doh. Because they do kill foxes when they shouldn't. I think that has been shown quite clearly.
I think most labour MPs care more about the class war part than the care of foxes.
So a plurality of Tory supporters oppose a trail hunting ban and less than half of Reform voters want to ban it either. The Boxing Day hunt also is a crucial part of village and rural life in areas like where I live. Hundreds turn out on the village green and the pub serves mulled wine as the hunt gathers and for its supporters in rural areas it is a big deal. Even if they have to hunt a trail or drag hunt now not a fox (whose numbers still need to be kept down).
Labour may try and ban trail hunting as most of its supporters want as it banned fox hunting but with Farage and Badenoch opposed to a trail hunting ban, if Labour lose power at the next general election it will be restored
There are perhaps only 170 hunt packs in England so this romanticised notion of every village welcoming its hunt with drinks and applause really needs to be challenged.
My only experience of this was in St Ives (Cornwall) several years ago when the Western Hunt paid the town a visit and it was all very congenial with a few supporters shouting and a small crowd applauding. For most, it was a curiousity and I suppose if there's a purpose to it, it shows urban people an aspect of rural life with which they would otherwise be unfamiliar.
I just think rural communities have a lot more serious issues than the future of the local Hunt.
Those foxhunts are spread across the country from Pembrokeshire to here in rural Essex, from Dumfriesshire to Wensleydale, the Cotswolds and Devon and will of course often stop at more than 1 village on a big hunt day than Boxing Day.
If Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes, what objection would hunts have to converting to Drag hunting? There doesn't seem to be one.
Also you keep bringing up the hunts keep the fox numbers down. If Trail hunts don't kill foxes how do they do that?
Also when fox hunts were allowed to kill they did not keep numbers down because that is not how Fox territories work. if you want I can go through the numbers for you but a simple example is to compare the City Fox to the Rural Fox. The City Fox has a much much much smaller territory than a Rural Fox (the territory is not controlled by extermination but food supply). Yet the City Office is effectively hunted and relentlessly so by the car. It is the major form of death for City Foxes and the average life span for a City Fox is 12 - 18 months but 3 years for a Rural Fox with some living up to 8 years.
So although the City Fox is culled and far more efficiently than a hunt its numbers are far greater. That is because food supply and not hunting is the determinant of the number of foxes.
Hunts used to kill 20 - 25,000 foxes a year. About 1.500,000 - 2,000,000 foxes are born each year. A killed foxes territory is simply taken over by another pair of foxes who will now breed.
If Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes why does it need to be banned?
Trail hunting also follows an animal based not artificial scent so is closer to the traditional sport of fox hunting Labour banned
Doh. Because they do kill foxes when they shouldn't. I think that has been shown quite clearly.
Which was of course the original purpose of the hunt until Labour in its class war banned it
Hang on, we are going around in circles here. I assume you are saying the original purpose of the hunt was killing foxes. Well obviously. But if you can get the enjoyment and spectacle without killing foxes then what is the problem.
And if you say to control fox numbers I am likely to punch a wall because:
a) Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes anyway (so what is your point in not moving to drag hunting where you can get the same enjoyment and definitely not kill a fox)) b) Fox hunting did not control numbers. See my post where I showed that.
Some sick fuckers enjoy seeing animals suffer.
That is what fox hunting is all about.
I am surprised that a follower of the teachings of Jesus, such as HY, is on the side of cruelty.
Yes foxes, lovely cuddly things, never rip rabbits and chickens to pieces and kill lambs, certainly not
Getting into the realms of morality here but foxes don't rip apart chickens and kill lambs out of deliberate cruelty.
Fox numbers need to be controlled. Go to a larger shoot and you won't (or shouldn't) see a fox. So one way or another the fox gets it.
According to the Burns Inquiry, fox hunting with hounds was not proven to be cruel. Although the fox's welfare was compromised (I'll say).
But that argument was fought and lost (or won) years ago. Now the concern is that trail hunting is a smokescreen for fox hunting. And if it is or if it isn't, banning something because it might be used to do something illegal is weird. You might as well ban cars that travel over 70mph.
I think that's a fair point. The alternative is to increase funding for rural policing though, which is never going to happen sadly. There should be a seperate force for that, akin to the BTP, with specialist training and no duties outwith specific geographic areas and/or laws.
Did the pollster actually discuss what “trail hunting” means?
Labour just hate the red jackets, and will oppose whatever they want to do on Boxing Day.
Yes, look at the graphic.
"Trail hunting" is the practice of laying a scent trail using a rag soaked in animal scent for hounds and riders on horseback to chase. Advocates say that this allows people to simulate hunts without actually harming an animal, but critics say it is sometimes used as a smokescreen for actual fox hunting. Do you think trail hunting should be made illegal, or should it remain legal?
It is clear from the polling where the public stands on the issue.
However, this question has been phrased in a way that exacerbates the negative outcome. Trail hunting is a simulation of hunting that allows people to hunt without harming an animal. There's no justification for using 'advocates say' there, nor for giving equal weight to 'critics'.
Ai says this:
44 individuals affiliated with organised hunts have been convicted or accepted cautions across 70 completed cases since 2005—approximately 3.9 cases per year.
That's a ludicrously low figure over 20+ years, and this is desperate stuff from the least popular Government ever.
Well, it either means that most hunts are law-abiding folks, or that getting a conviction is incredibly difficult with limited rural policing. If raptor persecution is anything to go by, it's the latter.
There are plenty of well-funded campaign groups who are more than willing to attend, gather evidence and pressurise the authorities to do something.
So a plurality of Tory supporters oppose a trail hunting ban and less than half of Reform voters want to ban it either. The Boxing Day hunt also is a crucial part of village and rural life in areas like where I live. Hundreds turn out on the village green and the pub serves mulled wine as the hunt gathers and for its supporters in rural areas it is a big deal. Even if they have to hunt a trail or drag hunt now not a fox (whose numbers still need to be kept down).
Labour may try and ban trail hunting as most of its supporters want as it banned fox hunting but with Farage and Badenoch opposed to a trail hunting ban, if Labour lose power at the next general election it will be restored
There are perhaps only 170 hunt packs in England so this romanticised notion of every village welcoming its hunt with drinks and applause really needs to be challenged.
My only experience of this was in St Ives (Cornwall) several years ago when the Western Hunt paid the town a visit and it was all very congenial with a few supporters shouting and a small crowd applauding. For most, it was a curiousity and I suppose if there's a purpose to it, it shows urban people an aspect of rural life with which they would otherwise be unfamiliar.
I just think rural communities have a lot more serious issues than the future of the local Hunt.
Those foxhunts are spread across the country from Pembrokeshire to here in rural Essex, from Dumfriesshire to Wensleydale, the Cotswolds and Devon and will of course often stop at more than 1 village on a big hunt day than Boxing Day.
If Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes, what objection would hunts have to converting to Drag hunting? There doesn't seem to be one.
Also you keep bringing up the hunts keep the fox numbers down. If Trail hunts don't kill foxes how do they do that?
Also when fox hunts were allowed to kill they did not keep numbers down because that is not how Fox territories work. if you want I can go through the numbers for you but a simple example is to compare the City Fox to the Rural Fox. The City Fox has a much much much smaller territory than a Rural Fox (the territory is not controlled by extermination but food supply). Yet the City Office is effectively hunted and relentlessly so by the car. It is the major form of death for City Foxes and the average life span for a City Fox is 12 - 18 months but 3 years for a Rural Fox with some living up to 8 years.
So although the City Fox is culled and far more efficiently than a hunt its numbers are far greater. That is because food supply and not hunting is the determinant of the number of foxes.
Hunts used to kill 20 - 25,000 foxes a year. About 1.500,000 - 2,000,000 foxes are born each year. A killed foxes territory is simply taken over by another pair of foxes who will now breed.
If Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes why does it need to be banned?
Trail hunting also follows an animal based not artificial scent so is closer to the traditional sport of fox hunting Labour banned
Doh. Because they do kill foxes when they shouldn't. I think that has been shown quite clearly.
Which was of course the original purpose of the hunt until Labour in its class war banned it
Hang on, we are going around in circles here. I assume you are saying the original purpose of the hunt was killing foxes. Well obviously. But if you can get the enjoyment and spectacle without killing foxes then what is the problem.
And if you say to control fox numbers I am likely to punch a wall because:
a) Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes anyway (so what is your point in not moving to drag hunting where you can get the same enjoyment and definitely not kill a fox)) b) Fox hunting did not control numbers. See my post where I showed that.
Some sick fuckers enjoy seeing animals suffer.
That is what fox hunting is all about.
I am surprised that a follower of the teachings of Jesus, such as HY, is on the side of cruelty.
Yes foxes, lovely cuddly things, never rip rabbits and chickens to pieces and kill lambs, certainly not
Foxes are predatory carnivore. They hunt and kill to survive.
I've been out for a meal in Quorn. I didn't see fox pie on the menu.
Did the pollster actually discuss what “trail hunting” means?
Labour just hate the red jackets, and will oppose whatever they want to do on Boxing Day.
Yes, look at the graphic.
"Trail hunting" is the practice of laying a scent trail using a rag soaked in animal scent for hounds and riders on horseback to chase. Advocates say that this allows people to simulate hunts without actually harming an animal, but critics say it is sometimes used as a smokescreen for actual fox hunting. Do you think trail hunting should be made illegal, or should it remain legal?
It is clear from the polling where the public stands on the issue.
However, this question has been phrased in a way that exacerbates the negative outcome. Trail hunting is a simulation of hunting that allows people to hunt without harming an animal. There's no justification for using 'advocates say' there, nor for giving equal weight to 'critics'.
Ai says this:
44 individuals affiliated with organised hunts have been convicted or accepted cautions across 70 completed cases since 2005—approximately 3.9 cases per year.
That's a ludicrously low figure over 20+ years, and this is desperate stuff from the least popular Government ever.
Well, it either means that most hunts are law-abiding folks, or that getting a conviction is incredibly difficult with limited rural policing. If raptor persecution is anything to go by, it's the latter.
There are plenty of well-funded campaign groups who are more than willing to attend, gather evidence and pressurise the authorities to do something.
The fact those groups are necessary proves the point. The idea that there isn't illegal hunting going is just farcical - everyone knows what they are up to, concealed or not.
So a plurality of Tory supporters oppose a trail hunting ban and less than half of Reform voters want to ban it either. The Boxing Day hunt also is a crucial part of village and rural life in areas like where I live. Hundreds turn out on the village green and the pub serves mulled wine as the hunt gathers and for its supporters in rural areas it is a big deal. Even if they have to hunt a trail or drag hunt now not a fox (whose numbers still need to be kept down).
Labour may try and ban trail hunting as most of its supporters want as it banned fox hunting but with Farage and Badenoch opposed to a trail hunting ban, if Labour lose power at the next general election it will be restored
There are perhaps only 170 hunt packs in England so this romanticised notion of every village welcoming its hunt with drinks and applause really needs to be challenged.
My only experience of this was in St Ives (Cornwall) several years ago when the Western Hunt paid the town a visit and it was all very congenial with a few supporters shouting and a small crowd applauding. For most, it was a curiousity and I suppose if there's a purpose to it, it shows urban people an aspect of rural life with which they would otherwise be unfamiliar.
I just think rural communities have a lot more serious issues than the future of the local Hunt.
Those foxhunts are spread across the country from Pembrokeshire to here in rural Essex, from Dumfriesshire to Wensleydale, the Cotswolds and Devon and will of course often stop at more than 1 village on a big hunt day than Boxing Day.
If Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes, what objection would hunts have to converting to Drag hunting? There doesn't seem to be one.
Also you keep bringing up the hunts keep the fox numbers down. If Trail hunts don't kill foxes how do they do that?
Also when fox hunts were allowed to kill they did not keep numbers down because that is not how Fox territories work. if you want I can go through the numbers for you but a simple example is to compare the City Fox to the Rural Fox. The City Fox has a much much much smaller territory than a Rural Fox (the territory is not controlled by extermination but food supply). Yet the City Office is effectively hunted and relentlessly so by the car. It is the major form of death for City Foxes and the average life span for a City Fox is 12 - 18 months but 3 years for a Rural Fox with some living up to 8 years.
So although the City Fox is culled and far more efficiently than a hunt its numbers are far greater. That is because food supply and not hunting is the determinant of the number of foxes.
Hunts used to kill 20 - 25,000 foxes a year. About 1.500,000 - 2,000,000 foxes are born each year. A killed foxes territory is simply taken over by another pair of foxes who will now breed.
If Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes why does it need to be banned?
Trail hunting also follows an animal based not artificial scent so is closer to the traditional sport of fox hunting Labour banned
Doh. Because they do kill foxes when they shouldn't. I think that has been shown quite clearly.
Which was of course the original purpose of the hunt until Labour in its class war banned it
Hang on, we are going around in circles here. I assume you are saying the original purpose of the hunt was killing foxes. Well obviously. But if you can get the enjoyment and spectacle without killing foxes then what is the problem.
And if you say to control fox numbers I am likely to punch a wall because:
a) Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes anyway (so what is your point in not moving to drag hunting where you can get the same enjoyment and definitely not kill a fox)) b) Fox hunting did not control numbers. See my post where I showed that.
Some sick fuckers enjoy seeing animals suffer.
That is what fox hunting is all about.
I am surprised that a follower of the teachings of Jesus, such as HY, is on the side of cruelty.
Yes foxes, lovely cuddly things, never rip rabbits and chickens to pieces and kill lambs, certainly not
Good morning
That is nature, and not being terrified by packs of dogs and huntsmen chasing them down and tearing them to pieces in the name of sport
I 100% support the ban on fox hunting, do agree the trail ban is labour's class war, but that drag hunting should continue
However, I really do think there are far more important issues for a labour government to deal with which to date they have singularly failed, especially on the economy and the boats
Fox numbers need to be controlled. Go to a larger shoot and you won't (or shouldn't) see a fox. So one way or another the fox gets it.
According to the Burns Inquiry, fox hunting with hounds was not proven to be cruel. Although the fox's welfare was compromised (I'll say).
But that argument was fought and lost (or won) years ago. Now the concern is that trail hunting is a smokescreen for fox hunting. And if it is or if it isn't, banning something because it might be used to do something illegal is weird. You might as well ban cars that travel over 70mph.
I think that's a fair point. The alternative is to increase funding for rural policing though, which is never going to happen sadly. There should be a seperate force for that, akin to the BTP, with specialist training and no duties outwith specific geographic areas and/or laws.
There are rural crime teams but they are (rightly) occupied with thefts of farm vehicles and the like. ie proper crime. Not to say you don't see the odd police vehicle out trail hunting.
Comments
Those allying for his deportation are necessarily calling for another change in the law to make it easier for a Home Secretary to take away citizenship from an individual.
The bar for removal of citizenship is quite rightly extremely high. Legislating to alter it, over a controversy about what someone has said, is a definite step into a very slippery slope indeed.
Where granting of citizenship is not automatic under the law, then more care should be taken, certainly.
I am though very strongly opposed to the idea of granting politicians what is effectively arbitrary powers to unperson individuals.
That the Farages and Jenricks aspire to such powers isn't particularly surprising.
He's done far more for this country for more than a decade as editor of this wonderful blog than most of the halfwits who'll be honoured.
And it doesn't go on and on for days at a time.
And it is a true sport featuring in the Olympics unlike cricket which is seen as too boring.
The reason Lab is going after trail hunting and not drag hunting is because it is believed that trail hunting is a "smokescreen" for fox hunting and away from prying eyes those foxhounds will be encouraged to hunt foxes.
That is pretty nuanced if you are going to introduce a law banning one and allowing the other. Any hound can follow any scent. Each hound type is bred to follow a particular scent so on the one hand it is quite straightforward but on the other, ostensibly the activities look exactly the same bar a different breed of dog.
Among the measures that are thought will be introduced are to make landowners culpable if a fox is hunted on their land, and to introduce the concept of recklessness, whereby the threshold of proof to show you were breaking the law (by putting hounds into a position whereby the could hunt a fox) much lower.
If they go for the former (landowner liability) then landowners would presumably have to think long and hard about whether to allow drag hunts on their land given that a dog with a nose is a dog with a nose.
Hunting of all types is in a quantum state and drag hunting would likely continue with a trail hunting ban because the antis wouldn't (and don't currently) interest themselves in activities which are demonstrably not breaking or seeking to break the law and so no one would care or go to look at drag hunts.
Some of the farmers really hate them, but they have enough support to have defeated a recent Dail attempt to ban foxhunting by 124 votes to 24.
https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2025/1217/1549570-fox-hunting-bill/
* I have previously eaten horse in Italy and it was actually really good.
For that to be the case, those ministers need to think that any plausible alternative is an improvement. And, however dismal the statement is, that's not currently the case.
Besides, if I were an ambitious Labourite, not necessarily called Wes, I wouldn't want to be PM until about six months before the next election. Any longer runup than that and it would become clear that the Premiership is currently an impossible job, even if you have any of the usual skills.
Psuedo trail hunting isn't
Only the leftist People Before Profit, whose highest voteshare tends to be in and around Dublin, was clearly for the ban
I would have thought this useless Labour government had more serious issues to deal with too than another act of class war against the supposed rural posh by trying to ban trail hunting
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foxhound_packs_of_the_United_Kingdom
It is only Labour and Green voters who are strongly in favour of a trail hunting ban with over 60% in favour, even LDs are only 50% for a ban
So there's an argument that the class warfare was in treating foxhunting as an exception to the banning of those lower-class bloodsports.
What business is that of yours?
However he is also self aware enough to know that 1/3 of Reform voters are ex Labour even if 2/3 are ex Tories
Unless they’re breaking the law of course!!
Though yes well done the Dail for voting to keep fox hunting unlike Westminster and Holyrood
Having said that, the cure to the problem of the upper classes doing things that are banned to the lower classes is to legalise it for the lower classes, not delegalise it for the upper classes.
Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-Ga.) claimed in a New York Times profile that President Trump said his “friends will get hurt” by exposing abusers connected to convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein.
According to the story told by Greene, she received a call from Trump after she said at a news conference that she would expose the names of men who abused victims of Epstein. The news conference came after a House Oversight and Government Reform Committee closed-door meeting with women victimized by Epstein.
Greene said Trump called her after the news conference to express his unhappiness. The Times reported that people could hear Trump yelling at Greene as she talked to him over a speakerphone.
That's unacceptable.
Also you keep bringing up the hunts keep the fox numbers down. If Trail hunts don't kill foxes how do they do that?
Also when fox hunts were allowed to kill they did not keep numbers down because that is not how Fox territories work. if you want I can go through the numbers for you but a simple example is to compare the City Fox to the Rural Fox. The City Fox has a much much much smaller territory than a Rural Fox (the territory is not controlled by extermination but food supply). Yet the City Fox is effectively hunted and relentlessly so by the car. It is the major form of death for City Foxes and the average life span for a City Fox is 12 - 18 months but 3 years for a Rural Fox with some living up to 8 years.
So although the City Fox is culled and far more efficiently than a hunt its numbers are far greater. That is because food supply and not hunting is the determinant of the number of foxes.
Hunts used to kill 20 - 25,000 foxes a year. About 1.500,000 - 2,000,000 foxes are born each year. A killed foxes territory is simply taken over by another pair of foxes who will now breed. Foxes die of lots of things. A hunt was well down the list.
Trail hunting also follows an animal based not artificial scent so is closer to the traditional sport of fox hunting Labour banned.
Personally I would never have banned fox hunting and kept the fox numbers down given rural areas have fewer cars than city areas per square foot but we are where we are and it is unlikely to come back. Though we Tories certainly will do all we can to stop trail hunts being banned, in alliance with Farage too it seems on this issue.
But Lab are planning to ban something on the assumption that the law is being broken. I'm not sure there is another instance in the country where that approach is being taken. Like fining motorists for obeying the speed limit because they could (and of course do) break it.
Guns, though, I think. Not packs of dogs.
And if you say to control fox numbers I am likely to punch a wall because:
a) Trail hunting supposedly doesn't kill foxes anyway (so what is your point in not moving to drag hunting where you can get the same enjoyment and definitely not kill a fox))
b) Fox hunting did not control numbers. See my post where I showed that.
Reporter: Did Putin agree to a ceasefire to allow a referendum?
Trump: Not a ceasefire. He feels that look, you know, they're fighting and to stop. And then if they have to start again, which is a possibility, he doesn't want to be in that position. I understand that position. I understand Putin from that standpoint.
Trail hunting probably does kill more foxes than drag hunting as it uses an animal scent and similar trails to fox hunts, even if those kills are not intentional. So it likely controls fox numbers more than drag hunts do
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4iI3GU6eZ4
45 minutes of ex-Gove dæmon (a Pullman reference, apparently) Cummings talking “to Maddie and I [sic]”.
However, this question has been phrased in a way that exacerbates the negative outcome. Trail hunting is a simulation of hunting that allows people to hunt without harming an animal. There's no justification for using 'advocates say' there, nor for giving equal weight to 'critics'.
Ai says this:
That is what fox hunting is all about.
I am surprised that a follower of the teachings of Jesus, such as HY, is on the side of cruelty.
I know a lot of people who are very passionate about it but i also know a lot of farmers who hate the hunt as they come crashing through their land with no prior permission and act in a very high handed way about it. My father and his partner are horsey types and can't stand them either locally as they are very cliquey l.
According to the Burns Inquiry, fox hunting with hounds was not proven to be cruel. Although the fox's welfare was compromised (I'll say).
But that argument was fought and lost (or won) years ago. Now the concern is that trail hunting is a smokescreen for fox hunting. And if it is or if it isn't, banning something because it might be used to do something illegal is weird. You might as well ban cars that travel over 70mph.
I've been out for a meal in Quorn. I didn't see fox pie on the menu.
That is nature, and not being terrified by packs of dogs and huntsmen chasing them down and tearing them to pieces in the name of sport
I 100% support the ban on fox hunting, do agree the trail ban is labour's class war, but that drag hunting should continue
However, I really do think there are far more important issues for a labour government to deal with which to date they have singularly failed, especially on the economy and the boats