'The incoming Archbishop of Canterbury has been urged to scrap plans to spend £100m over the Church of England's historical links to slavery.
In a letter seen by the Sunday Times, external, a group of Conservative MPs and peers has urged Dame Sarah Mullally to stop the Church from spending the money.
They claim the funds can only legally be spent on churches and the payment of clergy wages.
In a statement to the paper, the Church Commissioners said that arrangements for the fund were being "developed transparently - in line with charity law".
Mullally, who currently serves as the Bishop of London, will take up her new role as the first-ever female Archbishop of Canterbury next month.
The Church of England's slavery links proposal was announced in January 2023, external following the publication of a report into the Church's historical links to transatlantic slavery.
The report, external, requested by the Church's financing arm - the Church Commissioners - found that a fund established by Queen Anne in 1704 to help poor Anglican clergy was used to finance "great evil".
According to the report, the fund, known as Queen Anne's Bounty, invested in African chattel enslavement and took donations derived from it.
After the report's publication, the then-Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, said he was "deeply sorry" for the links and said action would be taken to address the Church's "shameful past".
The Church Commissioners announced a new £100m fund, committed over a nine-year period, to be spent on "a programme of investment, research and engagement" in communities damaged by the enslavement of African people during the transatlantic slave trade.
However, in their letter to Mullally, MPs and peers have urged the Church to focus on "strengthening parishes" rather than on pursuing what they describe as "high-profile and legally dubious vanity projects".' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2e7w03067o
There are a couple of things going on here. I'm not at all sure there is a viable legal case - there will be various precedents in a period since 1704, but I doubt they will try it.
There's obviously populist right politics, with a seach for attention - this is people like Lam, Philp and Lord Biggar (Regent College Vancouver, and Latimer House, Cambridge, amongst others).
But politically it will be interesting, and for pressure they will leverage Parliamentary on normally non-contentious Church of England legislation in the Ecclesiastical Committee, and gum up the works.
That was a game Danny Kruger was playing last autumn.
Indeed, this is populism.
While sympathetic though to the MPs and peers pushing more funds for Parishes, if any income from the 1704 bounty can be directly linked to investments in slave trading companies I can see why the C of E commissioners are doing what they are proposing. That income, only that income mind, should be used to fund projects in Africa and the Caribbean and maybe support churches with large Black British congregations England.
I know a few aristocratic families maybe even the King are also looking at their assets to see if they can make reparations for any income from slavery. Older companies like Barclays and Greene King and Lloyds of London and RBS (now Natwest) are also potentially affected. Greene King is looking into reparations and Lloyds of London invests in BAME projects as a result, as did RBS. Oxbridge colleges and some of the oldest public schools too could be implicated, some colleges increasing scholarships for black students from the Caribbean and Africa https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/18/barclays-hsbc-and-lloyds-among-uk-banks-that-had-links-to-slavery
IMHO, if money is being used for good purposes, 2-300 years down the line, it has lost its taint. More than a few people who have created fortunes did so by unethical means.
I'm intrigued. Who do you have in mind that made their fortunes by ethical means?
A minority really, mostly nonconformists.
The Rowntrees and Cadburys might be your best bets.
"Sir Keir Starmer has been criticised for welcoming the arrival of Egyptian pro-democracy activist Alaa Abdel Fattah to the UK - after historical social media messages emerged showing the campaigner apparently calling for Zionists to be killed."
Honestly Starmer’s statements were basically pro forma pablum for a PM.
What it really shows up is the sheer incompetence of the Downing Street machine. Can you imagine Ali Campbell, or Tim Bell, not have had a junior crawl through the social media history* to see if there was anything embarrassing? Or not escalating it (although it’s intriguing that Starmer’s first line of defence is to throw his team under the bus again). Unless they didn’t see anything wrong in his statements…
As an aside, why does Starmer insist on being called “Sir Keir”? I know it’s his official title and all that but no other knights that I know actually use it. Not even John Major or Tony Blair do…
(* I know, pedant, but the point still stands)
Where are you getting that info that he insists on being called Sir Keir?
Yeah I’m not having that. When he pretends that people come up to him in the street with their concerns, he makes out they call him ‘Keir’ in an everyman kind of way
You always show your respect by using his full title of course. Very sweet considering you're no fan of his.
I fucking hate Christmas. Honestly, same idiocy every year. Absurd pressure on people to buy presents to give to people who don't want them. What a waste of time.
I felt a little bad a I couldn’t wait for all our visitors to fuck off, especially the tedious 18 year old daughter of my wife’s friend, and I get my house back and yet I’m reading of people suffering from acute loneliness on Xmas day.
Its also a chronic waste of money and the TV is shit.
I fucking hate Christmas. Honestly, same idiocy every year. Absurd pressure on people to buy presents to give to people who don't want them. What a waste of time.
Good afternoon
Our children decided between them they would only give Christmas presents to their own children rather than buying presents for their siblings children
Sensible and a good saving and almost certainly avoiding the struggle of what to buy them
They also stopped sending cards and just using facebook to wish a happy xmas
It was also agreed our children would only give a token present from their children to us, their grandparents
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
Mr Starmer's Government are planning a Coup de Kent.
They say the aim is to create a pretext for ministers to send in a central government commissioner to take over all or part of its operations.
Mr Tice said: “We have strong reason to believe what they’re trying to do is sow a loss of confidence in one of our councils and they’ve targeted Kent.
I fucking hate Christmas. Honestly, same idiocy every year. Absurd pressure on people to buy presents to give to people who don't want them. What a waste of time.
Good afternoon
Our children decided between them they would only give Christmas presents to their own children rather than buying presents for their siblings children
Sensible and a good saving and almost certainly avoiding the struggle of what to buy them
They also stopped sending cards and just using facebook to wish a happy xmas
It was also agreed our children would only give a token present from their children to us, their grandparents
All very well, BigG, but that last bit means you lose out.
I’ve become quite entranced with a retired chap on X called Mike who lives in Walsall, and spends his time litter picking and painting over graffiti.
Had a spare hour just now so just did a loop in the village, filled a whole black bin bag, drinks cans, coffee cups, vapes, chewing gum wrappers etc… most of it chucked out of car windows but enough too from locals (a LOT of dog mess bags).
The most likely determinant of whether people throw litter is whether there is already litter. A different footpath loop tomorrow morning I think…
I challenge all ye to do the same before the year is out!
I fucking hate Christmas. Honestly, same idiocy every year. Absurd pressure on people to buy presents to give to people who don't want them. What a waste of time.
That's a little unfair, but then I have limited presents to my immediate family only. I don't bother with presents for all of the various cousins, aunts and uncles. It definitely takes the pressure off and collectively we end up with less tat. We also have an unspoken rule to not get plastic shit made in China for each other which really helps avoid unwanted crap.
Listening to the clip in the header, istm to be startlingly complacent. To wit:
"You look at some of his biggest policy achievements from this past year — the elimination of Iran’s nuclear capacities, cracking down on the southern border, basically eliminating illegal immigration across the southern border, keeping women’s spaces for women — these are all issues where he is not just above water with voters, he’s overwhelmingly supported by 80% to 90% of Americans on these key issues.”
This is a few days before health insurance premiums start spiking by amounts varying from 10% (for some employer funded programmes) to 114% (on average) for the 24 million people on Affordable Care programmes (roughly household incomes under 60-90k depending on how many people).
I'm not sure if "strikes on Iran" will be a dominant political question, no matter how many wars Mr Trump invents.
I can’t wait til this fucking clown show is over.
I’m hoping the Supreme Court hands his his ass on tariffs.
I'm with you on that one.
I'm still sticking to my view that what it will really need is another period of similar import to reconstruction, as happened with the three Constitutional Amendments (13, 14, 15) from the 1860s which were subsequently - if I have my history right - undermined by Jim Crow laws.
'The incoming Archbishop of Canterbury has been urged to scrap plans to spend £100m over the Church of England's historical links to slavery.
In a letter seen by the Sunday Times, external, a group of Conservative MPs and peers has urged Dame Sarah Mullally to stop the Church from spending the money.
They claim the funds can only legally be spent on churches and the payment of clergy wages.
In a statement to the paper, the Church Commissioners said that arrangements for the fund were being "developed transparently - in line with charity law".
Mullally, who currently serves as the Bishop of London, will take up her new role as the first-ever female Archbishop of Canterbury next month.
The Church of England's slavery links proposal was announced in January 2023, external following the publication of a report into the Church's historical links to transatlantic slavery.
The report, external, requested by the Church's financing arm - the Church Commissioners - found that a fund established by Queen Anne in 1704 to help poor Anglican clergy was used to finance "great evil".
According to the report, the fund, known as Queen Anne's Bounty, invested in African chattel enslavement and took donations derived from it.
After the report's publication, the then-Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, said he was "deeply sorry" for the links and said action would be taken to address the Church's "shameful past".
The Church Commissioners announced a new £100m fund, committed over a nine-year period, to be spent on "a programme of investment, research and engagement" in communities damaged by the enslavement of African people during the transatlantic slave trade.
However, in their letter to Mullally, MPs and peers have urged the Church to focus on "strengthening parishes" rather than on pursuing what they describe as "high-profile and legally dubious vanity projects".' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2e7w03067o
There are a couple of things going on here. I'm not at all sure there is a viable legal case - there will be various precedents in a period since 1704, but I doubt they will try it.
There's obviously populist right politics, with a seach for attention - this is people like Lam, Philp and Lord Biggar (Regent College Vancouver, and Latimer House, Cambridge, amongst others).
But politically it will be interesting, and for pressure they will leverage Parliamentary on normally non-contentious Church of England legislation in the Ecclesiastical Committee, and gum up the works.
That was a game Danny Kruger was playing last autumn.
Indeed, this is populism.
While sympathetic though to the MPs and peers pushing more funds for Parishes, if any income from the 1704 bounty can be directly linked to investments in slave trading companies I can see why the C of E commissioners are doing what they are proposing. That income, only that income mind, should be used to fund projects in Africa and the Caribbean and maybe support churches with large Black British congregations England.
I know a few aristocratic families maybe even the King are also looking at their assets to see if they can make reparations for any income from slavery. Older companies like Barclays and Greene King and Lloyds of London and RBS (now Natwest) are also potentially affected. Greene King is looking into reparations and Lloyds of London invests in BAME projects as a result, as did RBS. Oxbridge colleges and some of the oldest public schools too could be implicated, some colleges increasing scholarships for black students from the Caribbean and Africa https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/18/barclays-hsbc-and-lloyds-among-uk-banks-that-had-links-to-slavery
IMHO, if money is being used for good purposes, 2-300 years down the line, it has lost its taint. More than a few people who have created fortunes did so by unethical means.
I'm intrigued. Who do you have in mind that made their fortunes by ethical means?
A minority really, mostly nonconformists.
The Rowntrees and Cadburys might be your best bets.
Two families who come over as virtual saints, by comparison to many contemporaries.
And, while it is counter-intuitive, acting fairly and honestly, towards others, served them well, financially.
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
I fucking hate Christmas. Honestly, same idiocy every year. Absurd pressure on people to buy presents to give to people who don't want them. What a waste of time.
Good afternoon
Our children decided between them they would only give Christmas presents to their own children rather than buying presents for their siblings children
Sensible and a good saving and almost certainly avoiding the struggle of what to buy them
They also stopped sending cards and just using facebook to wish a happy xmas
It was also agreed our children would only give a token present from their children to us, their grandparents
All very well, BigG, but that last bit means you lose out.
We can never lose out when we have everything we could ever want or need, and see all our grandchildren regularly who understand the rule what goes on in Grandma's house stays in Grandma's house !!!!!!
Mr Starmer's Government are planning a Coup de Kent.
They say the aim is to create a pretext for ministers to send in a central government commissioner to take over all or part of its operations.
Mr Tice said: “We have strong reason to believe what they’re trying to do is sow a loss of confidence in one of our councils and they’ve targeted Kent.
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
The whole saga of Alaa Abd El-Fattah shows why Reform are the deserved favourites to win the next election. Both main parties have long been more concerned with projecting the right vibes about "British values" than engaging with reality.
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
I too think Reform would crush a Conservative Party led by Cleverly.
I don’t think Badenoch can win, but she may keep the Conservatives in contention.
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Amazing that this no mark still doesn’t realise that the biggest part of this scandal is not the actions of Starmer’s government to secure this person’s release, but the granting of citizenship by the Tory party to an extremist with such tenuous links to the Uk.
I’ve become quite entranced with a retired chap on X called Mike who lives in Walsall, and spends his time litter picking and painting over graffiti.
Had a spare hour just now so just did a loop in the village, filled a whole black bin bag, drinks cans, coffee cups, vapes, chewing gum wrappers etc… most of it chucked out of car windows but enough too from locals (a LOT of dog mess bags).
The most likely determinant of whether people throw litter is whether there is already litter. A different footpath loop tomorrow morning I think…
I challenge all ye to do the same before the year is out!
I’m deffo volunteering next year.
Probably not as a guide in Durham as apparently they get accosted by the drunks and druggies who infest the city.
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Is it too late to rescind his citizenship? I don't understand why the decision seems to final, he's a dual national without birthright citizenship. We took away citizenship from Shamina Begum under much more tenuous circumstances and that decision has been backed by the courts multiple times.
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Amazing that this no mark still doesn’t realise that the biggest part of this scandal is not the actions of Starmer’s government to secure this person’s release, but the granting of citizenship by the Tory party to an extremist with such tenuous links to the Uk.
Could they have refused based on his anti semitism and his other tweets.
There are plenty here who defended him and said he was a victim of,racism.
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Is it too late to rescind his citizenship? I don't understand why the decision seems to final, he's a dual national without birthright citizenship. We took away citizenship from Shamina Begum under much more tenuous circumstances and that decision has been backed by the courts multiple times.
Begum was a groomed child, I’ve always said she should be our problem. But she does not benefit from a well funded and well supported lobbying campaign with access to a friendly press (now forgetting their prior support) and an army of Celebs wanting to support.
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Is it too late to rescind his citizenship? I don't understand why the decision seems to final, he's a dual national without birthright citizenship. We took away citizenship from Shamina Begum under much more tenuous circumstances and that decision has been backed by the courts multiple times.
Now that he is in the uk, the ECHR and related industry would not permit his deportation back to Egypt in case his rights were infringed. So you could rescind his citizenship but would still be stuck with him, until/unless you can leave the echr or get him willingly to go to a third country. But good luck persuading anyone to take him.
"Sir Keir Starmer has been criticised for welcoming the arrival of Egyptian pro-democracy activist Alaa Abdel Fattah to the UK - after historical social media messages emerged showing the campaigner apparently calling for Zionists to be killed."
Honestly Starmer’s statements were basically pro forma pablum for a PM.
What it really shows up is the sheer incompetence of the Downing Street machine. Can you imagine Ali Campbell, or Tim Bell, not have had a junior crawl through the social media history* to see if there was anything embarrassing? Or not escalating it (although it’s intriguing that Starmer’s first line of defence is to throw his team under the bus again). Unless they didn’t see anything wrong in his statements…
As an aside, why does Starmer insist on being called “Sir Keir”? I know it’s his official title and all that but no other knights that I know actually use it. Not even John Major or Tony Blair do…
(* I know, pedant, but the point still stands)
Where are you getting that info that he insists on being called Sir Keir?
The BBC uses it the whole time and I’m sure it would have been corrected
I recall an article from about the time he became LOTO where his office got the style guide changed to use his title
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Amazing that this no mark still doesn’t realise that the biggest part of this scandal is not the actions of Starmer’s government to secure this person’s release, but the granting of citizenship by the Tory party to an extremist with such tenuous links to the Uk.
She really is an idiot. She’s whining like she’s the victim and all he needs to do is say sorry.
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Is it too late to rescind his citizenship? I don't understand why the decision seems to final, he's a dual national without birthright citizenship. We took away citizenship from Shamina Begum under much more tenuous circumstances and that decision has been backed by the courts multiple times.
Birthright citizenship hasn't been a thing in the UK since 1983.
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Amazing that this no mark still doesn’t realise that the biggest part of this scandal is not the actions of Starmer’s government to secure this person’s release, but the granting of citizenship by the Tory party to an extremist with such tenuous links to the Uk.
As I understand it they had no choice as his Mother was born in this country
However, how his tweets in 2010-11 remained under the radar is a question that needs to be addressed
There is an extensive list of politicians who demanded his release last year which does beg the question why ?
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Amazing that this no mark still doesn’t realise that the biggest part of this scandal is not the actions of Starmer’s government to secure this person’s release, but the granting of citizenship by the Tory party to an extremist with such tenuous links to the Uk.
She really is an idiot. She’s whining like she’s the victim and all he needs to do is say sorry.
Her whole career is quite symbolic of the Blairite/Cameroon political era. She set out wanting to be a human rights lawyer with Amnesty International and ended up as a Tory MP in a safe seat.
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Amazing that this no mark still doesn’t realise that the biggest part of this scandal is not the actions of Starmer’s government to secure this person’s release, but the granting of citizenship by the Tory party to an extremist with such tenuous links to the Uk.
As I understand it they had no choice as his Mother was born in this country
However, how his tweets in 2010-11 remained under the radar is a question that needs to be addressed
There is an extensive list of politicians who demanded his release last year which does beg the question why ?
Parliament is sovereign and the last government enjoyed a romping majority. They could have done what they liked. I’m fed up with the wets that have steadily destroyed this country pretending they had no choice in the matter.
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Is it too late to rescind his citizenship? I don't understand why the decision seems to final, he's a dual national without birthright citizenship. We took away citizenship from Shamina Begum under much more tenuous circumstances and that decision has been backed by the courts multiple times.
Begum is a traitor, although as an alternative we could have thrown the Treason Act 1351 at her and she would now be doing life in Holloway. In contrast, Alaa has merely said some bad things online, which is something that right-wing people think you should be able to do.
“Unfortunately the Iranian nuclear project isn’t dedicated to the extermination of the white man”.
For all the handwringing this morning about Trump, at least he instinctively knows that swathes of the west are committing societal suicide by pandering to these guys. Thanks to our woke immigration policies from Blair onwards, we have become a sewer for the human effluent that autocracies everywhere (correctly) want rid of.
Even at Xmas time, you can’t restrain yourself from calling refugees “human effluent”? What would Jesus do?
Chuckle. He’s a guy who has repeatedly incited racially based violence and murder including against children. I have no problem calling him human effluent and look forward to the next government deporting him.
But you didn’t call this one person “effluent”. You used that term about a large number of refugees from “Blair onwards”.
I don’t use the word refugees, you did. But yes, we have become a sewer for many thousands of people who do not recognise rape as immoral and who wish harm on infidels. Suicidal empathy is a very apt description of where our society has found itself.
You’re the Trump supporter, so I suggest it’s you that does not recognise that rape is immoral. Trump has repeatedly sexually assaulted women. A jury concluded that. Multiple women testified in court to that. He has even bragged about his own behaviour. Yet you ignore all that because you like his politics.
There are good and bad people everywhere. I will take my chances showing empathy to a refugee. Where my empathy runs thin is when I read the words of those who support a vile, corrupt rapist, a man who with one hand sells pardons, and with the other sells Ukraine down the river.
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
The whole saga of Alaa Abd El-Fattah shows why Reform are the deserved favourites to win the next election. Both main parties have long been more concerned with projecting the right vibes about "British values" than engaging with reality.
The reality is that, by law, he was entitled to British citizenship. Once he had it it was the duty of the foreign office to advocate for his release.
The only misstep here was the government trumpeting his release
I fucking hate Christmas. Honestly, same idiocy every year. Absurd pressure on people to buy presents to give to people who don't want them. What a waste of time.
Couldn't agree more.
I had several bottles of wine and one of Calvados. I’m not complaining!
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Amazing that this no mark still doesn’t realise that the biggest part of this scandal is not the actions of Starmer’s government to secure this person’s release, but the granting of citizenship by the Tory party to an extremist with such tenuous links to the Uk.
As I understand it they had no choice as his Mother was born in this country
However, how his tweets in 2010-11 remained under the radar is a question that needs to be addressed
There is an extensive list of politicians who demanded his release last year which does beg the question why ?
Our equivalent of ICE or the Chinese National Development and Reform Commission checking and rating the social media appropriateness of the nation is probably still a decade or so away.
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Amazing that this no mark still doesn’t realise that the biggest part of this scandal is not the actions of Starmer’s government to secure this person’s release, but the granting of citizenship by the Tory party to an extremist with such tenuous links to the Uk.
She really is an idiot. She’s whining like she’s the victim and all he needs to do is say sorry.
Her whole career is quite symbolic of the Blairite/Cameroon political era. She set out wanting to be a human rights lawyer with Amnesty International and ended up as a Tory MP in a safe seat.
The last MRP I saw had her just 4% ahead of Reform. Can’t be too many more intellectually and morally shallow no hopers than her that deserved to be booted out on a bigger swing than the national average.
'The incoming Archbishop of Canterbury has been urged to scrap plans to spend £100m over the Church of England's historical links to slavery.
In a letter seen by the Sunday Times, external, a group of Conservative MPs and peers has urged Dame Sarah Mullally to stop the Church from spending the money.
They claim the funds can only legally be spent on churches and the payment of clergy wages.
In a statement to the paper, the Church Commissioners said that arrangements for the fund were being "developed transparently - in line with charity law".
Mullally, who currently serves as the Bishop of London, will take up her new role as the first-ever female Archbishop of Canterbury next month.
The Church of England's slavery links proposal was announced in January 2023, external following the publication of a report into the Church's historical links to transatlantic slavery.
The report, external, requested by the Church's financing arm - the Church Commissioners - found that a fund established by Queen Anne in 1704 to help poor Anglican clergy was used to finance "great evil".
According to the report, the fund, known as Queen Anne's Bounty, invested in African chattel enslavement and took donations derived from it.
After the report's publication, the then-Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, said he was "deeply sorry" for the links and said action would be taken to address the Church's "shameful past".
The Church Commissioners announced a new £100m fund, committed over a nine-year period, to be spent on "a programme of investment, research and engagement" in communities damaged by the enslavement of African people during the transatlantic slave trade.
However, in their letter to Mullally, MPs and peers have urged the Church to focus on "strengthening parishes" rather than on pursuing what they describe as "high-profile and legally dubious vanity projects".' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2e7w03067o
There are a couple of things going on here. I'm not at all sure there is a viable legal case - there will be various precedents in a period since 1704, but I doubt they will try it.
There's obviously populist right politics, with a seach for attention - this is people like Lam, Philp and Lord Biggar (Regent College Vancouver, and Latimer House, Cambridge, amongst others).
But politically it will be interesting, and for pressure they will leverage Parliamentary on normally non-contentious Church of England legislation in the Ecclesiastical Committee, and gum up the works.
That was a game Danny Kruger was playing last autumn.
Indeed, this is populism.
While sympathetic though to the MPs and peers pushing more funds for Parishes, if any income from the 1704 bounty can be directly linked to investments in slave trading companies I can see why the C of E commissioners are doing what they are proposing. That income, only that income mind, should be used to fund projects in Africa and the Caribbean and maybe support churches with large Black British congregations England.
I know a few aristocratic families maybe even the King are also looking at their assets to see if they can make reparations for any income from slavery. Older companies like Barclays and Greene King and Lloyds of London and RBS (now Natwest) are also potentially affected. Greene King is looking into reparations and Lloyds of London invests in BAME projects as a result, as did RBS. Oxbridge colleges and some of the oldest public schools too could be implicated, some colleges increasing scholarships for black students from the Caribbean and Africa https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/18/barclays-hsbc-and-lloyds-among-uk-banks-that-had-links-to-slavery
These cranks will never be satisfied by this virtuous rent seeking.
They want trillions not the odd £100 million.
Given them an inch and they will take a mile and we already have a sizeable minority in Labour supporting this.
Also the legal company involved in the so called equal pay shakedown is getting involved. It was part of the recent conference.
They can all see another gravy train at the taxpayers expense and the opportunity to white knight these nations and feel good.
I hold NatWest stock. They need to focus on managing the business and delivering for shareholders. Not this crap.
That's not a gravy train at the taxpayers' expense.
.
I never said it was. I said it’s something they can see. Especially given the trajectory. I think they are positioning themselves for what they expect to come.
There is a growing movement in Labour supporting this. The Guardian is a cheerleader for it too posting regular favourable articles.
There are regular conferences from the APPG supported by organisations who I think can see it coming.
History is littered with villains who sought to launder their reputations through charitable donations. Not just through money earned from slavery, but also piracy, child labour, appalling business practices, corruption in public office, seizure of monastic lands etc. But, I don’t see why that should be any concern of a charity in the here and now - provided that their endowment is actually being used for charitable purposes.
Maybe the Church has more practice in handling moral quandaries?
"Sir Keir Starmer has been criticised for welcoming the arrival of Egyptian pro-democracy activist Alaa Abdel Fattah to the UK - after historical social media messages emerged showing the campaigner apparently calling for Zionists to be killed."
Honestly Starmer’s statements were basically pro forma pablum for a PM.
What it really shows up is the sheer incompetence of the Downing Street machine. Can you imagine Ali Campbell, or Tim Bell, not have had a junior crawl through the social media history* to see if there was anything embarrassing? Or not escalating it (although it’s intriguing that Starmer’s first line of defence is to throw his team under the bus again). Unless they didn’t see anything wrong in his statements…
As an aside, why does Starmer insist on being called “Sir Keir”? I know it’s his official title and all that but no other knights that I know actually use it. Not even John Major or Tony Blair do…
(* I know, pedant, but the point still stands)
Where are you getting that info that he insists on being called Sir Keir?
Yeah I’m not having that. When he pretends that people come up to him in the street with their concerns, he makes out they call him ‘Keir’ in an everyman kind of way
You always show your respect by using his full title of course. Very sweet considering you're no fan of his.
Ahead of the game on the "considering him boring, snidey and generally unlikeable" front though, wasn't I?
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Amazing that this no mark still doesn’t realise that the biggest part of this scandal is not the actions of Starmer’s government to secure this person’s release, but the granting of citizenship by the Tory party to an extremist with such tenuous links to the Uk.
As I understand it they had no choice as his Mother was born in this country
However, how his tweets in 2010-11 remained under the radar is a question that needs to be addressed
There is an extensive list of politicians who demanded his release last year which does beg the question why ?
Parliament is sovereign and the last government enjoyed a romping majority. They could have done what they liked. I’m fed up with the wets that have steadily destroyed this country pretending they had no choice in the matter.
There seems to have been an extraordinary number of politicians demanding his release so the question is when were they aware of his tweets from over 20 years ago
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
The whole saga of Alaa Abd El-Fattah shows why Reform are the deserved favourites to win the next election. Both main parties have long been more concerned with projecting the right vibes about "British values" than engaging with reality.
The reality is that, by law, he was entitled to British citizenship. Once he had it it was the duty of the foreign office to advocate for his release.
The only misstep here was the government trumpeting his release
I thought diplomatic assistance was usually limited for dual citizens when in their other homeland?
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
I too think Reform would crush a Conservative Party led by Cleverly.
I don’t think Badenoch can win, but she may keep the Conservatives in contention.
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Amazing that this no mark still doesn’t realise that the biggest part of this scandal is not the actions of Starmer’s government to secure this person’s release, but the granting of citizenship by the Tory party to an extremist with such tenuous links to the Uk.
As I understand it they had no choice as his Mother was born in this country
However, how his tweets in 2010-11 remained under the radar is a question that needs to be addressed
There is an extensive list of politicians who demanded his release last year which does beg the question why ?
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Is it too late to rescind his citizenship? I don't understand why the decision seems to final, he's a dual national without birthright citizenship. We took away citizenship from Shamina Begum under much more tenuous circumstances and that decision has been backed by the courts multiple times.
Begum is a traitor, although as an alternative we could have thrown the Treason Act 1351 at her and she would now be doing life in Holloway. In contrast, Alaa has merely said some bad things online, which is something that right-wing people think you should be able to do.
Begum was a child who was, well that word we don’t mention. There is mitigation but she should be our problem..
Merely said bad things online. Yes, the comments are just a few bad things and nothing more 🙄 The Lucy Connolly defence. It only works for this waster as he made these tweets, IIRC, outside of the U.K.
They’re both as awful as each other in their own way and people defending him would never dream of defending the likes of her even though they’re two cheeks of the same arse.
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Amazing that this no mark still doesn’t realise that the biggest part of this scandal is not the actions of Starmer’s government to secure this person’s release, but the granting of citizenship by the Tory party to an extremist with such tenuous links to the Uk.
She really is an idiot. She’s whining like she’s the victim and all he needs to do is say sorry.
Her whole career is quite symbolic of the Blairite/Cameroon political era. She set out wanting to be a human rights lawyer with Amnesty International and ended up as a Tory MP in a safe seat.
The last MRP I saw had her just 4% ahead of Reform. Can’t be too many more intellectually and morally shallow no hopers than her that deserved to be booted out on a bigger swing than the national average.
I would gently suggest your last paragraph could be applied to Reform and their politicians
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
The whole saga of Alaa Abd El-Fattah shows why Reform are the deserved favourites to win the next election. Both main parties have long been more concerned with projecting the right vibes about "British values" than engaging with reality.
The reality is that, by law, he was entitled to British citizenship. Once he had it it was the duty of the foreign office to advocate for his release.
The only misstep here was the government trumpeting his release
That's not true. It would only have been automatic if it had been his father rather than his mother who was born in the UK. Otherwise you have to apply and it's a legal requirement to attend a ceremony and swear allegience to the monarch and pledge loyalty to the UK.
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Amazing that this no mark still doesn’t realise that the biggest part of this scandal is not the actions of Starmer’s government to secure this person’s release, but the granting of citizenship by the Tory party to an extremist with such tenuous links to the Uk.
As I understand it they had no choice as his Mother was born in this country
However, how his tweets in 2010-11 remained under the radar is a question that needs to be addressed
There is an extensive list of politicians who demanded his release last year which does beg the question why ?
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Amazing that this no mark still doesn’t realise that the biggest part of this scandal is not the actions of Starmer’s government to secure this person’s release, but the granting of citizenship by the Tory party to an extremist with such tenuous links to the Uk.
As I understand it they had no choice as his Mother was born in this country
However, how his tweets in 2010-11 remained under the radar is a question that needs to be addressed
There is an extensive list of politicians who demanded his release last year which does beg the question why ?
"Sir Keir Starmer has been criticised for welcoming the arrival of Egyptian pro-democracy activist Alaa Abdel Fattah to the UK - after historical social media messages emerged showing the campaigner apparently calling for Zionists to be killed."
Honestly Starmer’s statements were basically pro forma pablum for a PM.
What it really shows up is the sheer incompetence of the Downing Street machine. Can you imagine Ali Campbell, or Tim Bell, not have had a junior crawl through the social media history* to see if there was anything embarrassing? Or not escalating it (although it’s intriguing that Starmer’s first line of defence is to throw his team under the bus again). Unless they didn’t see anything wrong in his statements…
As an aside, why does Starmer insist on being called “Sir Keir”? I know it’s his official title and all that but no other knights that I know actually use it. Not even John Major or Tony Blair do…
(* I know, pedant, but the point still stands)
Where are you getting that info that he insists on being called Sir Keir?
Yeah I’m not having that. When he pretends that people come up to him in the street with their concerns, he makes out they call him ‘Keir’ in an everyman kind of way
You always show your respect by using his full title of course. Very sweet considering you're no fan of his.
Ahead of the game on the "considering him boring, snidey and generally unlikeable" front though, wasn't I?
When was the last time someone said he was ‘forensic’
The truth is all the traditional "centre right" have left is the fact Trump annoys "the lefties" so much so they can troll away on that to their heart's content rather than asking themselves why the opposition to the "centre left" is now coming from the populists like Farage and Trump rather than from traditional conservatives like Badenoch.
I don't think it's controversial to say that the population in most democracies has turned away from centrist politicians, for understandable reasons, and that right-wing populists have been more successful at winning the support of discontented voters than left-wing populists.
Can't blame Righties for consoling themselves with that. I'm sure I'd feel the same if the roles were reversed.
Not in Canada or Australia earlier this year where the centre left won, nor in the French legislative elections where the far left won most seats.
Only in Argentina and Italy and Israel beyond the US have the rightwing populists clearly won in terms of the developed world
... and Chile
Also Turkey, Hungary, Mexico and Brazil.
And the Philippines and India, depending on your definition of 'developed'.
Wasn’t it more the centre right than the populist right who did well in the Filipino election?
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Is it too late to rescind his citizenship? I don't understand why the decision seems to final, he's a dual national without birthright citizenship. We took away citizenship from Shamina Begum under much more tenuous circumstances and that decision has been backed by the courts multiple times.
Begum is a traitor, although as an alternative we could have thrown the Treason Act 1351 at her and she would now be doing life in Holloway. In contrast, Alaa has merely said some bad things online, which is something that right-wing people think you should be able to do.
We have perfectly acceptable and long standing laws against incitement to violence without otherwise prejudicing free speech in the way we’ve seen in recent years. It’s quite clear that what this man has been posting, repeatedly, is on a par or worse with those that called for hotels to be burnt to the ground.
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Amazing that this no mark still doesn’t realise that the biggest part of this scandal is not the actions of Starmer’s government to secure this person’s release, but the granting of citizenship by the Tory party to an extremist with such tenuous links to the Uk.
As I understand it they had no choice as his Mother was born in this country
However, how his tweets in 2010-11 remained under the radar is a question that needs to be addressed
There is an extensive list of politicians who demanded his release last year which does beg the question why ?
Is there a statute of limitations on incitement to racial hatred? In general, English law doesn't have them so maybe a prosecution could be brought.
I do not know, but it does seem this row has come about because nobody was aware of these old tweets and if Starmer and his cabinet hadn't made such an issue about it it probably wouldn't have been noticed
I fucking hate Christmas. Honestly, same idiocy every year. Absurd pressure on people to buy presents to give to people who don't want them. What a waste of time.
Couldn't agree more.
I had several bottles of wine and one of Calvados. I’m not complaining!
Rock n Roll OKC. Enjoy.
I’ve had a bottle of homemade Pineapple and Coconut and am now on Cider.
"Sir Keir Starmer has been criticised for welcoming the arrival of Egyptian pro-democracy activist Alaa Abdel Fattah to the UK - after historical social media messages emerged showing the campaigner apparently calling for Zionists to be killed."
Honestly Starmer’s statements were basically pro forma pablum for a PM.
What it really shows up is the sheer incompetence of the Downing Street machine. Can you imagine Ali Campbell, or Tim Bell, not have had a junior crawl through the social media history* to see if there was anything embarrassing? Or not escalating it (although it’s intriguing that Starmer’s first line of defence is to throw his team under the bus again). Unless they didn’t see anything wrong in his statements…
As an aside, why does Starmer insist on being called “Sir Keir”? I know it’s his official title and all that but no other knights that I know actually use it. Not even John Major or Tony Blair do…
(* I know, pedant, but the point still stands)
Where are you getting that info that he insists on being called Sir Keir?
The BBC uses it the whole time and I’m sure it would have been corrected
I recall an article from about the time he became LOTO where his office got the style guide changed to use his title
That's the norm for the Beeb. Same with eg Major. If Starmer was to insist they dropped it specifically for him it would no doubt attract accusations of phoniness. Like with 'call me Dave'.
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Amazing that this no mark still doesn’t realise that the biggest part of this scandal is not the actions of Starmer’s government to secure this person’s release, but the granting of citizenship by the Tory party to an extremist with such tenuous links to the Uk.
As I understand it they had no choice as his Mother was born in this country
However, how his tweets in 2010-11 remained under the radar is a question that needs to be addressed
There is an extensive list of politicians who demanded his release last year which does beg the question why ?
Is there a statute of limitations on incitement to racial hatred? In general, English law doesn't have them so maybe a prosecution could be brought.
I do not know, but it does seem this row has come about because nobody was aware of these old tweets and if Starmer and his cabinet hadn't made such an issue about it it probably wouldn't have been noticed
I fucking hate Christmas. Honestly, same idiocy every year. Absurd pressure on people to buy presents to give to people who don't want them. What a waste of time.
That's a little unfair, but then I have limited presents to my immediate family only. I don't bother with presents for all of the various cousins, aunts and uncles. It definitely takes the pressure off and collectively we end up with less tat. We also have an unspoken rule to not get plastic shit made in China for each other which really helps avoid unwanted crap.
Various people told don't waste money you don't have buying stuff we don't want. Tokens are fine if you want. I then get grief on providing sufficient guidance on presents. Proper grief. So off they go buying clothes. Practically unwearable and of course they've cut the tags off. What's the point in a clothes industry where kids in Bangladesh have a miserable existence to make crap that people don't want?
And I have a few other examples. Its just performative pressure that isn't worth the bother. All I really need for Christmas is time. Spend some quality time with me, not working, having fun. I don't need you to stress buying me crap - especially when short of cash. And not just me. Have seen various gifts bought for relatives who were around my table. Why? Whose idea was that? Stupid idiot pressure buying commercialist crap.
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Amazing that this no mark still doesn’t realise that the biggest part of this scandal is not the actions of Starmer’s government to secure this person’s release, but the granting of citizenship by the Tory party to an extremist with such tenuous links to the Uk.
As I understand it they had no choice as his Mother was born in this country
However, how his tweets in 2010-11 remained under the radar is a question that needs to be addressed
There is an extensive list of politicians who demanded his release last year which does beg the question why ?
Is there a statute of limitations on incitement to racial hatred? In general, English law doesn't have them so maybe a prosecution could be brought.
I do not know, but it does seem this row has come about because nobody was aware of these old tweets and if Starmer and his cabinet hadn't made such an issue about it it probably wouldn't have been noticed
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Amazing that this no mark still doesn’t realise that the biggest part of this scandal is not the actions of Starmer’s government to secure this person’s release, but the granting of citizenship by the Tory party to an extremist with such tenuous links to the Uk.
She really is an idiot. She’s whining like she’s the victim and all he needs to do is say sorry.
Her whole career is quite symbolic of the Blairite/Cameroon political era. She set out wanting to be a human rights lawyer with Amnesty International and ended up as a Tory MP in a safe seat.
The last MRP I saw had her just 4% ahead of Reform. Can’t be too many more intellectually and morally shallow no hopers than her that deserved to be booted out on a bigger swing than the national average.
I would gently suggest your last paragraph could be applied to Reform and their politicians
Reform are highly likely to enter Parliament with some total pirates, if the polls and seat projections are close to accurate. But that is an acceptable cost to ejecting the liberal uniparty that is well down the road to destroying this country. At this point I hate the Tories at least as much as I do Labour and I am not unique.
It’s also what most misunderstand about Trump voters. Of course right minded people would rather he was a more moral, polite and law abiding man. But right now he’s the only game in town to try and arrest the decline.
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Amazing that this no mark still doesn’t realise that the biggest part of this scandal is not the actions of Starmer’s government to secure this person’s release, but the granting of citizenship by the Tory party to an extremist with such tenuous links to the Uk.
As I understand it they had no choice as his Mother was born in this country
However, how his tweets in 2010-11 remained under the radar is a question that needs to be addressed
There is an extensive list of politicians who demanded his release last year which does beg the question why ?
Is there a statute of limitations on incitement to racial hatred? In general, English law doesn't have them so maybe a prosecution could be brought.
I do not know, but it does seem this row has come about because nobody was aware of these old tweets and if Starmer and his cabinet hadn't made such an issue about it it probably wouldn't have been noticed
Opportunity surely for Farage to make clear how strongly repelled he is by antisemitism? And to make clear that it doesn't matter how long ago the instances were.
"Sir Keir Starmer has been criticised for welcoming the arrival of Egyptian pro-democracy activist Alaa Abdel Fattah to the UK - after historical social media messages emerged showing the campaigner apparently calling for Zionists to be killed."
Honestly Starmer’s statements were basically pro forma pablum for a PM.
What it really shows up is the sheer incompetence of the Downing Street machine. Can you imagine Ali Campbell, or Tim Bell, not have had a junior crawl through the social media history* to see if there was anything embarrassing? Or not escalating it (although it’s intriguing that Starmer’s first line of defence is to throw his team under the bus again). Unless they didn’t see anything wrong in his statements…
As an aside, why does Starmer insist on being called “Sir Keir”? I know it’s his official title and all that but no other knights that I know actually use it. Not even John Major or Tony Blair do…
(* I know, pedant, but the point still stands)
Where are you getting that info that he insists on being called Sir Keir?
Yeah I’m not having that. When he pretends that people come up to him in the street with their concerns, he makes out they call him ‘Keir’ in an everyman kind of way
You always show your respect by using his full title of course. Very sweet considering you're no fan of his.
Ahead of the game on the "considering him boring, snidey and generally unlikeable" front though, wasn't I?
The public seems to increasingly share your distaste for his personality, yes. I'm not one to deny the undeniable.
The truth is all the traditional "centre right" have left is the fact Trump annoys "the lefties" so much so they can troll away on that to their heart's content rather than asking themselves why the opposition to the "centre left" is now coming from the populists like Farage and Trump rather than from traditional conservatives like Badenoch.
I don't think it's controversial to say that the population in most democracies has turned away from centrist politicians, for understandable reasons, and that right-wing populists have been more successful at winning the support of discontented voters than left-wing populists.
Can't blame Righties for consoling themselves with that. I'm sure I'd feel the same if the roles were reversed.
Not in Canada or Australia earlier this year where the centre left won, nor in the French legislative elections where the far left won most seats.
Only in Argentina and Italy and Israel beyond the US have the rightwing populists clearly won in terms of the developed world
... and Chile
Also Turkey, Hungary, Mexico and Brazil.
And the Philippines and India, depending on your definition of 'developed'.
Wasn’t it more the centre right than the populist right who did well in the Filipino election?
I was thinking of Duterte. He may be in prison but his movement is still very powerful.
The truth is all the traditional "centre right" have left is the fact Trump annoys "the lefties" so much so they can troll away on that to their heart's content rather than asking themselves why the opposition to the "centre left" is now coming from the populists like Farage and Trump rather than from traditional conservatives like Badenoch.
I don't think it's controversial to say that the population in most democracies has turned away from centrist politicians, for understandable reasons, and that right-wing populists have been more successful at winning the support of discontented voters than left-wing populists.
Can't blame Righties for consoling themselves with that. I'm sure I'd feel the same if the roles were reversed.
Not in Canada or Australia earlier this year where the centre left won, nor in the French legislative elections where the far left won most seats.
Only in Argentina and Italy and Israel beyond the US have the rightwing populists clearly won in terms of the developed world
... and Chile
Also Turkey, Hungary, Mexico and Brazil.
And the Philippines and India, depending on your definition of 'developed'.
Wasn’t it more the centre right than the populist right who did well in the Filipino election?
I was thinking of Duterte. He may be in prison but his movement is still very powerful.
He needs to use specially reinforced toilets apparently.
I fucking hate Christmas. Honestly, same idiocy every year. Absurd pressure on people to buy presents to give to people who don't want them. What a waste of time.
That's a little unfair, but then I have limited presents to my immediate family only. I don't bother with presents for all of the various cousins, aunts and uncles. It definitely takes the pressure off and collectively we end up with less tat. We also have an unspoken rule to not get plastic shit made in China for each other which really helps avoid unwanted crap.
Various people told don't waste money you don't have buying stuff we don't want. Tokens are fine if you want. I then get grief on providing sufficient guidance on presents. Proper grief. So off they go buying clothes. Practically unwearable and of course they've cut the tags off. What's the point in a clothes industry where kids in Bangladesh have a miserable existence to make crap that people don't want?
And I have a few other examples. Its just performative pressure that isn't worth the bother. All I really need for Christmas is time. Spend some quality time with me, not working, having fun. I don't need you to stress buying me crap - especially when short of cash. And not just me. Have seen various gifts bought for relatives who were around my table. Why? Whose idea was that? Stupid idiot pressure buying commercialist crap.
We do buy clothes for some presents but always M & S who provide a gift receipt so they can be returned and exchanged or refunded
I fucking hate Christmas. Honestly, same idiocy every year. Absurd pressure on people to buy presents to give to people who don't want them. What a waste of time.
Couldn't agree more.
I had several bottles of wine and one of Calvados. I’m not complaining!
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Amazing that this no mark still doesn’t realise that the biggest part of this scandal is not the actions of Starmer’s government to secure this person’s release, but the granting of citizenship by the Tory party to an extremist with such tenuous links to the Uk.
As I understand it they had no choice as his Mother was born in this country
However, how his tweets in 2010-11 remained under the radar is a question that needs to be addressed
There is an extensive list of politicians who demanded his release last year which does beg the question why ?
Is there a statute of limitations on incitement to racial hatred? In general, English law doesn't have them so maybe a prosecution could be brought.
I do not know, but it does seem this row has come about because nobody was aware of these old tweets and if Starmer and his cabinet hadn't made such an issue about it it probably wouldn't have been noticed
Opportunity surely for Farage to make clear how strongly repelled he is by antisemitism? And to make clear that it doesn't matter how long ago the instances were.
True, but his usually strong political instinct has failed on this issue so far.
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Amazing that this no mark still doesn’t realise that the biggest part of this scandal is not the actions of Starmer’s government to secure this person’s release, but the granting of citizenship by the Tory party to an extremist with such tenuous links to the Uk.
She really is an idiot. She’s whining like she’s the victim and all he needs to do is say sorry.
Her whole career is quite symbolic of the Blairite/Cameroon political era. She set out wanting to be a human rights lawyer with Amnesty International and ended up as a Tory MP in a safe seat.
The last MRP I saw had her just 4% ahead of Reform. Can’t be too many more intellectually and morally shallow no hopers than her that deserved to be booted out on a bigger swing than the national average.
I would gently suggest your last paragraph could be applied to Reform and their politicians
Reform are highly likely to enter Parliament with some total pirates, if the polls and seat projections are close to accurate. But that is an acceptable cost to ejecting the liberal uniparty that is well down the road to destroying this country. At this point I hate the Tories at least as much as I do Labour and I am not unique.
It’s also what most misunderstand about Trump voters. Of course right minded people would rather he was a more moral, polite and law abiding man. But right now he’s the only game in town to try and arrest the decline.
Highly likely? They already have! Tice. Anderson. Farage...
As for Trump, he's not merely accelerating 'America's decline,' he's leading it to total economic catastrophe and undermining its political and judicial systems to the extent it's hard to see how they can recover. Anyone who thinks he is 'arresting its decline' has not bothered to look at what he's doing.
The truth is all the traditional "centre right" have left is the fact Trump annoys "the lefties" so much so they can troll away on that to their heart's content rather than asking themselves why the opposition to the "centre left" is now coming from the populists like Farage and Trump rather than from traditional conservatives like Badenoch.
I don't think it's controversial to say that the population in most democracies has turned away from centrist politicians, for understandable reasons, and that right-wing populists have been more successful at winning the support of discontented voters than left-wing populists.
Can't blame Righties for consoling themselves with that. I'm sure I'd feel the same if the roles were reversed.
Not in Canada or Australia earlier this year where the centre left won, nor in the French legislative elections where the far left won most seats.
Only in Argentina and Italy and Israel beyond the US have the rightwing populists clearly won in terms of the developed world
... and Chile
Also Turkey, Hungary, Mexico and Brazil.
And the Philippines and India, depending on your definition of 'developed'.
Wasn’t it more the centre right than the populist right who did well in the Filipino election?
I was thinking of Duterte. He may be in prison but his movement is still very powerful.
He needs to use specially reinforced toilets apparently.
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Is it too late to rescind his citizenship? I don't understand why the decision seems to final, he's a dual national without birthright citizenship. We took away citizenship from Shamina Begum under much more tenuous circumstances and that decision has been backed by the courts multiple times.
Begum is a traitor, although as an alternative we could have thrown the Treason Act 1351 at her and she would now be doing life in Holloway. In contrast, Alaa has merely said some bad things online, which is something that right-wing people think you should be able to do.
Begum was a child who was, well that word we don’t mention. There is mitigation but she should be our problem..
Merely said bad things online. Yes, the comments are just a few bad things and nothing more 🙄 The Lucy Connolly defence. It only works for this waster as he made these tweets, IIRC, outside of the U.K.
They’re both as awful as each other in their own way and people defending him would never dream of defending the likes of her even though they’re two cheeks of the same arse.
Sounds like letting them both back into the UK & locking them up for life will make everybody happy / unhappy!
Begum is our responsibility it seems to me. Not so sure about the guy that’s at the centre of today’s governmental clusterfuck (which appears to be a joint Conservative & Labour effort?). Regardless of that, he does seem to have managed to combine everything that’s controversial about the current immigration system into a single case: Can’t imagine a better recruitment sergeant for Reform frankly.
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Is it too late to rescind his citizenship? I don't understand why the decision seems to final, he's a dual national without birthright citizenship. We took away citizenship from Shamina Begum under much more tenuous circumstances and that decision has been backed by the courts multiple times.
Begum was a groomed child, I’ve always said she should be our problem. But she does not benefit from a well funded and well supported lobbying campaign with access to a friendly press (now forgetting their prior support) and an army of Celebs wanting to support.
Begum had (and has) some well funded and well connected supporters.
She faces assessments from the security services that she was still onside for ISIS and the fact (admitted in her interviews) that she willingly took part in an attempted genocide.
The truth is all the traditional "centre right" have left is the fact Trump annoys "the lefties" so much so they can troll away on that to their heart's content rather than asking themselves why the opposition to the "centre left" is now coming from the populists like Farage and Trump rather than from traditional conservatives like Badenoch.
I don't think it's controversial to say that the population in most democracies has turned away from centrist politicians, for understandable reasons, and that right-wing populists have been more successful at winning the support of discontented voters than left-wing populists.
Can't blame Righties for consoling themselves with that. I'm sure I'd feel the same if the roles were reversed.
Not in Canada or Australia earlier this year where the centre left won, nor in the French legislative elections where the far left won most seats.
Only in Argentina and Italy and Israel beyond the US have the rightwing populists clearly won in terms of the developed world
... and Chile
Also Turkey, Hungary, Mexico and Brazil.
And the Philippines and India, depending on your definition of 'developed'.
Wasn’t it more the centre right than the populist right who did well in the Filipino election?
I was thinking of Duterte. He may be in prison but his movement is still very powerful.
He needs to use specially reinforced toilets apparently.
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Is it too late to rescind his citizenship? I don't understand why the decision seems to final, he's a dual national without birthright citizenship. We took away citizenship from Shamina Begum under much more tenuous circumstances and that decision has been backed by the courts multiple times.
Begum is a traitor, although as an alternative we could have thrown the Treason Act 1351 at her and she would now be doing life in Holloway. In contrast, Alaa has merely said some bad things online, which is something that right-wing people think you should be able to do.
Begum was a child who was, well that word we don’t mention. There is mitigation but she should be our problem..
Merely said bad things online. Yes, the comments are just a few bad things and nothing more 🙄 The Lucy Connolly defence. It only works for this waster as he made these tweets, IIRC, outside of the U.K.
They’re both as awful as each other in their own way and people defending him would never dream of defending the likes of her even though they’re two cheeks of the same arse.
Sounds like letting them both back into the UK & locking them up for life will make everybody happy / unhappy!
Begum is our responsibility it seems to me. Not so sure about the guy that’s at the centre of today’s governmental clusterfuck (which appears to be a joint Conservative & Labour effort?). Regardless of that, he does seem to have managed to combine everything that’s controversial about the current immigration system into a single case: Can’t imagine a better recruitment sergeant for Reform frankly.
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
The whole saga of Alaa Abd El-Fattah shows why Reform are the deserved favourites to win the next election. Both main parties have long been more concerned with projecting the right vibes about "British values" than engaging with reality.
The reality is that, by law, he was entitled to British citizenship. Once he had it it was the duty of the foreign office to advocate for his release.
The only misstep here was the government trumpeting his release
I thought diplomatic assistance was usually limited for dual citizens when in their other homeland?
That’s a fair point, although I’m sure advocacy would continue
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Amazing that this no mark still doesn’t realise that the biggest part of this scandal is not the actions of Starmer’s government to secure this person’s release, but the granting of citizenship by the Tory party to an extremist with such tenuous links to the Uk.
She really is an idiot. She’s whining like she’s the victim and all he needs to do is say sorry.
Her whole career is quite symbolic of the Blairite/Cameroon political era. She set out wanting to be a human rights lawyer with Amnesty International and ended up as a Tory MP in a safe seat.
The last MRP I saw had her just 4% ahead of Reform. Can’t be too many more intellectually and morally shallow no hopers than her that deserved to be booted out on a bigger swing than the national average.
I would gently suggest your last paragraph could be applied to Reform and their politicians
Reform are highly likely to enter Parliament with some total pirates, if the polls and seat projections are close to accurate. But that is an acceptable cost to ejecting the liberal uniparty that is well down the road to destroying this country. At this point I hate the Tories at least as much as I do Labour and I am not unique.
It’s also what most misunderstand about Trump voters. Of course right minded people would rather he was a more moral, polite and law abiding man. But right now he’s the only game in town to try and arrest the decline.
I fully expect Farage to be found out over the next few years with May 26 his high point before the country rejects his idiotic policies only matched by Polanski
In the meantime Trump is a disaster the world is having to live with until someone, somewhere is able to start to stand up and beat him and his horrendous policies
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
The whole saga of Alaa Abd El-Fattah shows why Reform are the deserved favourites to win the next election. Both main parties have long been more concerned with projecting the right vibes about "British values" than engaging with reality.
The reality is that, by law, he was entitled to British citizenship. Once he had it it was the duty of the foreign office to advocate for his release.
The only misstep here was the government trumpeting his release
That's not true. It would only have been automatic if it had been his father rather than his mother who was born in the UK. Otherwise you have to apply and it's a legal requirement to attend a ceremony and swear allegience to the monarch and pledge loyalty to the UK.
I fucking hate Christmas. Honestly, same idiocy every year. Absurd pressure on people to buy presents to give to people who don't want them. What a waste of time.
That's a little unfair, but then I have limited presents to my immediate family only. I don't bother with presents for all of the various cousins, aunts and uncles. It definitely takes the pressure off and collectively we end up with less tat. We also have an unspoken rule to not get plastic shit made in China for each other which really helps avoid unwanted crap.
Various people told don't waste money you don't have buying stuff we don't want. Tokens are fine if you want. I then get grief on providing sufficient guidance on presents. Proper grief. So off they go buying clothes. Practically unwearable and of course they've cut the tags off. What's the point in a clothes industry where kids in Bangladesh have a miserable existence to make crap that people don't want?
And I have a few other examples. Its just performative pressure that isn't worth the bother. All I really need for Christmas is time. Spend some quality time with me, not working, having fun. I don't need you to stress buying me crap - especially when short of cash. And not just me. Have seen various gifts bought for relatives who were around my table. Why? Whose idea was that? Stupid idiot pressure buying commercialist crap.
We have a standard policy of kids getting a proper present and adults getting a hardback book
I fucking hate Christmas. Honestly, same idiocy every year. Absurd pressure on people to buy presents to give to people who don't want them. What a waste of time.
That's a little unfair, but then I have limited presents to my immediate family only. I don't bother with presents for all of the various cousins, aunts and uncles. It definitely takes the pressure off and collectively we end up with less tat. We also have an unspoken rule to not get plastic shit made in China for each other which really helps avoid unwanted crap.
Various people told don't waste money you don't have buying stuff we don't want. Tokens are fine if you want. I then get grief on providing sufficient guidance on presents. Proper grief. So off they go buying clothes. Practically unwearable and of course they've cut the tags off. What's the point in a clothes industry where kids in Bangladesh have a miserable existence to make crap that people don't want?
And I have a few other examples. Its just performative pressure that isn't worth the bother. All I really need for Christmas is time. Spend some quality time with me, not working, having fun. I don't need you to stress buying me crap - especially when short of cash. And not just me. Have seen various gifts bought for relatives who were around my table. Why? Whose idea was that? Stupid idiot pressure buying commercialist crap.
We have a standard policy of kids getting a proper present and adults getting a hardback book
I got a book on making preserves,jams and chutnies.
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
The whole saga of Alaa Abd El-Fattah shows why Reform are the deserved favourites to win the next election. Both main parties have long been more concerned with projecting the right vibes about "British values" than engaging with reality.
The reality is that, by law, he was entitled to British citizenship. Once he had it it was the duty of the foreign office to advocate for his release.
The only misstep here was the government trumpeting his release
That's not true. It would only have been automatic if it had been his father rather than his mother who was born in the UK. Otherwise you have to apply and it's a legal requirement to attend a ceremony and swear allegience to the monarch and pledge loyalty to the UK.
Yes you have to apply/fill out paperwork but there is no discretion if the criteria are met
I know someone personally who met all the criteria and then had their application refused for not attending the citizenship ceremony, so in practice there was discretion given that he was in an Egyptian prison at the time.
A very fine batsman who never got as many chances for England as he should have done, and a highly successful administrator for both England and Glamorgan.
I fucking hate Christmas. Honestly, same idiocy every year. Absurd pressure on people to buy presents to give to people who don't want them. What a waste of time.
That's a little unfair, but then I have limited presents to my immediate family only. I don't bother with presents for all of the various cousins, aunts and uncles. It definitely takes the pressure off and collectively we end up with less tat. We also have an unspoken rule to not get plastic shit made in China for each other which really helps avoid unwanted crap.
Various people told don't waste money you don't have buying stuff we don't want. Tokens are fine if you want. I then get grief on providing sufficient guidance on presents. Proper grief. So off they go buying clothes. Practically unwearable and of course they've cut the tags off. What's the point in a clothes industry where kids in Bangladesh have a miserable existence to make crap that people don't want?
And I have a few other examples. Its just performative pressure that isn't worth the bother. All I really need for Christmas is time. Spend some quality time with me, not working, having fun. I don't need you to stress buying me crap - especially when short of cash. And not just me. Have seen various gifts bought for relatives who were around my table. Why? Whose idea was that? Stupid idiot pressure buying commercialist crap.
We have a standard policy of kids getting a proper present and adults getting a hardback book
The young kids in the family get proper piles of wrapped stuff under the tree. The older kids get bigger ticket items, often from adults grouping together (parents, grandparents etc) - stuff like a new laptop for Uni. The adults have a non-aggression pact. We just drink each other's booze.
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
I too think Reform would crush a Conservative Party led by Cleverly.
I don’t think Badenoch can win, but she may keep the Conservatives in contention.
I fucking hate Christmas. Honestly, same idiocy every year. Absurd pressure on people to buy presents to give to people who don't want them. What a waste of time.
Couldn't disagree more, but then Christmas for us is about time with our children.
Like others we don't spend much (or expect much) for extended family.
We also as a point of principle don't spend time with other people on Christmas Day. Christmas Day is for our children, to spend at home, with their presents. That's always been our view.
We see other people that we want to see in the days before Christmas, not on Christmas Day. We can exchange presents then, spend as long or as little we want with them, then move on.
It works for us. If what you're doing does not work for you, do something else.
If anyone asks us what the kids want for Christmas then the automatic answer is gift vouchers/cash. That was first given to them them during Covid when some couldn't go shopping and they loved going shopping after Christmas with their vouchers so much that its been embraced as something some extended family do for the kids ever since. We went to Smyths yesterday and it was fun as it is each year now to see what the girls chose for themselves.
I fucking hate Christmas. Honestly, same idiocy every year. Absurd pressure on people to buy presents to give to people who don't want them. What a waste of time.
That's a little unfair, but then I have limited presents to my immediate family only. I don't bother with presents for all of the various cousins, aunts and uncles. It definitely takes the pressure off and collectively we end up with less tat. We also have an unspoken rule to not get plastic shit made in China for each other which really helps avoid unwanted crap.
Various people told don't waste money you don't have buying stuff we don't want. Tokens are fine if you want. I then get grief on providing sufficient guidance on presents. Proper grief. So off they go buying clothes. Practically unwearable and of course they've cut the tags off. What's the point in a clothes industry where kids in Bangladesh have a miserable existence to make crap that people don't want?
And I have a few other examples. Its just performative pressure that isn't worth the bother. All I really need for Christmas is time. Spend some quality time with me, not working, having fun. I don't need you to stress buying me crap - especially when short of cash. And not just me. Have seen various gifts bought for relatives who were around my table. Why? Whose idea was that? Stupid idiot pressure buying commercialist crap.
We have a standard policy of kids getting a proper present and adults getting a hardback book
I got a book on making preserves,jams and chutnies.
Ace
I like people, if they’re not giving me alcoholic drinks, to make donations on my behalf. Either to an MND charity, in memory of our daughter, or to a ‘responsible’ refugee charity.
My wife is asleep. All we’ve done today is walk a friends dog.
It’s dull but worthy.
The film makes some bizarre choices. I'd have thought that the vastness of the Manhattan Project was a part of his story - Oppenheimer went from a moderately obscure physicist to controlling a fair chunk of the US GDP. Yet the film makes it look like he ran a small cow town (with no cows).
I fucking hate Christmas. Honestly, same idiocy every year. Absurd pressure on people to buy presents to give to people who don't want them. What a waste of time.
That's a little unfair, but then I have limited presents to my immediate family only. I don't bother with presents for all of the various cousins, aunts and uncles. It definitely takes the pressure off and collectively we end up with less tat. We also have an unspoken rule to not get plastic shit made in China for each other which really helps avoid unwanted crap.
Various people told don't waste money you don't have buying stuff we don't want. Tokens are fine if you want. I then get grief on providing sufficient guidance on presents. Proper grief. So off they go buying clothes. Practically unwearable and of course they've cut the tags off. What's the point in a clothes industry where kids in Bangladesh have a miserable existence to make crap that people don't want?
And I have a few other examples. Its just performative pressure that isn't worth the bother. All I really need for Christmas is time. Spend some quality time with me, not working, having fun. I don't need you to stress buying me crap - especially when short of cash. And not just me. Have seen various gifts bought for relatives who were around my table. Why? Whose idea was that? Stupid idiot pressure buying commercialist crap.
We have a standard policy of kids getting a proper present and adults getting a hardback book
I got a book on making preserves,jams and chutnies.
Ace
I like people, if they’re not giving alcoholic drinks, to make donations on my behalf. Either to an MND charity, in memory of our daughter, or to a ‘responsible’ refugee charity.
My best gift this year, aside from the book, wasn’t the booze but it was a portable light for use in the loft.
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
The whole saga of Alaa Abd El-Fattah shows why Reform are the deserved favourites to win the next election. Both main parties have long been more concerned with projecting the right vibes about "British values" than engaging with reality.
The reality is that, by law, he was entitled to British citizenship. Once he had it it was the duty of the foreign office to advocate for his release.
The only misstep here was the government trumpeting his release
I thought diplomatic assistance was usually limited for dual citizens when in their other homeland?
That’s a fair point, although I’m sure advocacy would continue
The way it usually works is that if you are a citizen of A & B, you are legally only a citizen of A, when in A. So no right of consular access from B etc.
Add Luke Tryl to the list of pollsters that should be cancelled
The Alaa Abd El Fattah case could, esp, without a strong government (& Tory) response/explanation, become a defining moment in public opinion crystallising for some arguments govt simply isn’t competent enough to be in control or more than that has badly out of line priorities
My wife is asleep. All we’ve done today is walk a friends dog.
It’s dull but worthy.
The film makes some bizarre choices. I'd have thought that the vastness of the Manhattan Project was a part of his story - Oppenheimer went from a moderately obscure physicist to controlling a fair chunk of the US GDP. Yet the film makes it look like he ran a small cow town (with no cows).
Mr Starmer's Government are planning a Coup de Kent.
They say the aim is to create a pretext for ministers to send in a central government commissioner to take over all or part of its operations.
Mr Tice said: “We have strong reason to believe what they’re trying to do is sow a loss of confidence in one of our councils and they’ve targeted Kent.
Assuming Tice is right where is the justification with Kent compared to the other councils who had clear issues ?
It would be just politics based on political opponents.
Most likely, struggles with setting a legal budget.
Social care costs increasing faster than the allowed tax base equals inevitable doom. The grim paradox is that only some of the councils caught in the s114 net were run by loonies. Others have been frugally managed for decades, leaving them with too-low taxes now and no fat to trim.
The timebomb was set ticking well before the 2024 general election and the 2025 county council elections, not that that helps either set of incumbents.
The only moral, in both cases, is don't dance in saying how the problems will be simple and painless to fix.
Mr Starmer's Government are planning a Coup de Kent.
They say the aim is to create a pretext for ministers to send in a central government commissioner to take over all or part of its operations.
Mr Tice said: “We have strong reason to believe what they’re trying to do is sow a loss of confidence in one of our councils and they’ve targeted Kent.
Assuming Tice is right where is the justification with Kent compared to the other councils who had clear issues ?
It would be just politics based on political opponents.
Most likely, struggles with setting a legal budget.
Social care costs increasing faster than the allowed tax base equals inevitable doom. The grim paradox is that only some of the councils caught in the s114 net were run by loonies. Others have been frugally managed for decades, leaving them with too-low taxes now and no fat to trim.
The timebomb was set ticking well before the 2024 general election and the 2025 county council elections, not that that helps either set of incumbents.
The only moral, in both cases, is don't dance in saying how the problems will be simple and painless to fix.
I saw Newcastle Council were starting to express concern that some of their assets,like Eldon Square, aren’t delivering the expected revenues and it’s starting to have an impact. Didn’t stop them caving to a well organised lobby to get them to fund SEND provision where they had no legal obligation for older kids.
Wonder if they go the same way as other councils with failed property investments.
So Trump has had a phone call with Putin before meeting Zelensky again. That made the last meeting Zelensky crossed the Atlantic for go pretty badly, so I guess we have to prepare for the worst out of today's meeting.
So Trump has had a phone call with Putin before meeting Zelensky again. That made the last meeting Zelensky crossed the Atlantic for go pretty badly, so I guess we have to prepare for the worst out of today's meeting.
The very drunk JD Vance makes more stupid remarks about Zelensky's clothes?
So Trump has had a phone call with Putin before meeting Zelensky again. That made the last meeting Zelensky crossed the Atlantic for go pretty badly, so I guess we have to prepare for the worst out of today's meeting.
He has to check in with his boss to take his orders.
Comments
Its also a chronic waste of money and the TV is shit.
Our children decided between them they would only give Christmas presents to their own children rather than buying presents for their siblings children
Sensible and a good saving and almost certainly avoiding the struggle of what to buy them
They also stopped sending cards and just using facebook to wish a happy xmas
It was also agreed our children would only give a token present from their children to us, their grandparents
Had a spare hour just now so just did a loop in the village, filled a whole black bin bag, drinks cans, coffee cups, vapes, chewing gum wrappers etc… most of it chucked out of car windows but enough too from locals (a LOT of dog mess bags).
The most likely determinant of whether people throw litter is whether there is already litter. A different footpath loop tomorrow morning I think…
I challenge all ye to do the same before the year is out!
And, while it is counter-intuitive, acting fairly and honestly, towards others, served them well, financially.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
https://x.com/aliciakearns/status/2005285689798152406?s=61
I don’t think Badenoch can win, but she may keep the Conservatives in contention.
Probably not as a guide in Durham as apparently they get accosted by the drunks and druggies who infest the city.
Thinking of Gateshead countryside.
There are plenty here who defended him and said he was a victim of,racism.
I recall an article from about the time he became LOTO where his office got the style guide changed to use his title
However, how his tweets in 2010-11 remained under the radar is a question that needs to be addressed
There is an extensive list of politicians who demanded his release last year which does beg the question why ?
https://x.com/i/status/2005136263607984542
There are good and bad people everywhere. I will take my chances showing empathy to a refugee. Where my empathy runs thin is when I read the words of those who support a vile, corrupt rapist, a man who with one hand sells pardons, and with the other sells Ukraine down the river.
The only misstep here was the government trumpeting his release
https://x.com/i/status/2005136263607984542
Merely said bad things online. Yes, the comments are just a few bad things and nothing more 🙄 The Lucy Connolly defence. It only works for this waster as he made these tweets, IIRC, outside of the U.K.
They’re both as awful as each other in their own way and people defending him would never dream of defending the likes of her even though they’re two cheeks of the same arse.
https://www.gov.uk/apply-citizenship-british-parent/born-before-1983
I’ve had a bottle of homemade Pineapple and Coconut and am now on Cider.
https://x.com/markhumphrys/status/2005253852396982639?s=61
And I have a few other examples. Its just performative pressure that isn't worth the bother. All I really need for Christmas is time. Spend some quality time with me, not working, having fun. I don't need you to stress buying me crap - especially when short of cash. And not just me. Have seen various gifts bought for relatives who were around my table. Why? Whose idea was that? Stupid idiot pressure buying commercialist crap.
It’s also what most misunderstand about Trump voters. Of course right minded people would rather he was a more moral, polite and law abiding man. But right now he’s the only game in town to try and arrest the decline.
Goan yersel, big man.
As for Trump, he's not merely accelerating 'America's decline,' he's leading it to total economic catastrophe and undermining its political and judicial systems to the extent it's hard to see how they can recover. Anyone who thinks he is 'arresting its decline' has not bothered to look at what he's doing.
Begum is our responsibility it seems to me. Not so sure about the guy that’s at the centre of today’s governmental clusterfuck (which appears to be a joint Conservative & Labour effort?). Regardless of that, he does seem to have managed to combine everything that’s controversial about the current immigration system into a single case: Can’t imagine a better recruitment sergeant for Reform frankly.
https://x.com/nervana_1/status/2005293955219644584?s=61
She faces assessments from the security services that she was still onside for ISIS and the fact (admitted in her interviews) that she willingly took part in an attempted genocide.
My wife is asleep. All we’ve done today is walk a friends dog.
It’s dull but worthy.
In the meantime Trump is a disaster the world is having to live with until someone, somewhere is able to start to stand up and beat him and his horrendous policies
Ace
https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/hugh-morris-glamorgan-legend-dies-aged-62-after-cancer-battle-1517410
A very fine batsman who never got as many chances for England as he should have done, and a highly successful administrator for both England and Glamorgan.
Like others we don't spend much (or expect much) for extended family.
We also as a point of principle don't spend time with other people on Christmas Day. Christmas Day is for our children, to spend at home, with their presents. That's always been our view.
We see other people that we want to see in the days before Christmas, not on Christmas Day. We can exchange presents then, spend as long or as little we want with them, then move on.
It works for us. If what you're doing does not work for you, do something else.
If anyone asks us what the kids want for Christmas then the automatic answer is gift vouchers/cash. That was first given to them them during Covid when some couldn't go shopping and they loved going shopping after Christmas with their vouchers so much that its been embraced as something some extended family do for the kids ever since. We went to Smyths yesterday and it was fun as it is each year now to see what the girls chose for themselves.
The Alaa Abd El Fattah case could, esp, without a strong government (& Tory) response/explanation, become a defining moment in public opinion crystallising for some arguments govt simply isn’t competent enough to be in control or more than that has badly out of line priorities
https://x.com/luketryl/status/2005288303059521867?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
Social care costs increasing faster than the allowed tax base equals inevitable doom. The grim paradox is that only some of the councils caught in the s114 net were run by loonies. Others have been frugally managed for decades, leaving them with too-low taxes now and no fat to trim.
The timebomb was set ticking well before the 2024 general election and the 2025 county council elections, not that that helps either set of incumbents.
The only moral, in both cases, is don't dance in saying how the problems will be simple and painless to fix.
Wonder if they go the same way as other councils with failed property investments.
Finland is also withdrawing, coming into effect in January.