I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
I too think Reform would crush a Conservative Party led by Cleverly.
I don’t think Badenoch can win, but she may keep the Conservatives in contention.
The polling evidence doesn't show that.
An Ipsos poll in the summer had Cleverly the preference of 2024 Conservative voters if Kemi was no longer leader amongst Tory MPs eligible with 14%, followed by Sunak with 12% and Jenrick with 10%. Even if 2024 Reform voters preferred Jenrick and Braverman as their top 2 if you voted Reform in 2024 you certainly aren't going to be leaving them now. It is the 2024 Tory vote Cleverly could solidify https://conservativehome.com/2025/08/07/the-return-of-boris-tory-voters-are-looking-back-to-the-future/
A BMG poll last summer also had Cleverly ahead of Badenoch and Jenrick amongst all voters
'The incoming Archbishop of Canterbury has been urged to scrap plans to spend £100m over the Church of England's historical links to slavery.
In a letter seen by the Sunday Times, external, a group of Conservative MPs and peers has urged Dame Sarah Mullally to stop the Church from spending the money.
They claim the funds can only legally be spent on churches and the payment of clergy wages.
In a statement to the paper, the Church Commissioners said that arrangements for the fund were being "developed transparently - in line with charity law".
Mullally, who currently serves as the Bishop of London, will take up her new role as the first-ever female Archbishop of Canterbury next month.
The Church of England's slavery links proposal was announced in January 2023, external following the publication of a report into the Church's historical links to transatlantic slavery.
The report, external, requested by the Church's financing arm - the Church Commissioners - found that a fund established by Queen Anne in 1704 to help poor Anglican clergy was used to finance "great evil".
According to the report, the fund, known as Queen Anne's Bounty, invested in African chattel enslavement and took donations derived from it.
After the report's publication, the then-Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, said he was "deeply sorry" for the links and said action would be taken to address the Church's "shameful past".
The Church Commissioners announced a new £100m fund, committed over a nine-year period, to be spent on "a programme of investment, research and engagement" in communities damaged by the enslavement of African people during the transatlantic slave trade.
However, in their letter to Mullally, MPs and peers have urged the Church to focus on "strengthening parishes" rather than on pursuing what they describe as "high-profile and legally dubious vanity projects".' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2e7w03067o
There are a couple of things going on here. I'm not at all sure there is a viable legal case - there will be various precedents in a period since 1704, but I doubt they will try it.
There's obviously populist right politics, with a seach for attention - this is people like Lam, Philp and Lord Biggar (Regent College Vancouver, and Latimer House, Cambridge, amongst others).
But politically it will be interesting, and for pressure they will leverage Parliamentary on normally non-contentious Church of England legislation in the Ecclesiastical Committee, and gum up the works.
That was a game Danny Kruger was playing last autumn.
Indeed, this is populism.
While sympathetic though to the MPs and peers pushing more funds for Parishes, if any income from the 1704 bounty can be directly linked to investments in slave trading companies I can see why the C of E commissioners are doing what they are proposing. That income, only that income mind, should be used to fund projects in Africa and the Caribbean and maybe support churches with large Black British congregations England.
I know a few aristocratic families maybe even the King are also looking at their assets to see if they can make reparations for any income from slavery. Older companies like Barclays and Greene King and Lloyds of London and RBS (now Natwest) are also potentially affected. Greene King is looking into reparations and Lloyds of London invests in BAME projects as a result, as did RBS. Oxbridge colleges and some of the oldest public schools too could be implicated, some colleges increasing scholarships for black students from the Caribbean and Africa https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/18/barclays-hsbc-and-lloyds-among-uk-banks-that-had-links-to-slavery
IMHO, if money is being used for good purposes, 2-300 years down the line, it has lost its taint. More than a few people who have created fortunes did so by unethical means.
I'm intrigued. Who do you have in mind that made their fortunes by ethical means?
A minority really, mostly nonconformists.
The Rowntrees and Cadburys might be your best bets.
Two families who come over as virtual saints, by comparison to many contemporaries.
And, while it is counter-intuitive, acting fairly and honestly, towards others, served them well, financially.
Apparently Quakers succeeded in business because for them a handshake was enough to seal a deal, and they didn't get bogged down in over-legalistic interpretation of contracts.
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Amazing that this no mark still doesn’t realise that the biggest part of this scandal is not the actions of Starmer’s government to secure this person’s release, but the granting of citizenship by the Tory party to an extremist with such tenuous links to the Uk.
If I understand correctly, his citizenship was granted on the basis that his mother is British. Since citizenship by birth in Britain was abolished in the 80s that's the same basis that every other British citizen has their citizenship, although in most cases both parents will be British.
Would you be in favour of other British citizens losing their British citizenship due to tweets they've made?
From previous thread: Derek Bok's 2006 Our Underachieving Colleges is still worth reading for its description of problems in US universities. One in particular is persistent, from what I can tell: Almost no college professor wants to teach composition. (Nor do graduate student teaching assistants, though they may have fewer alternatives.)
It would be interesting to know whether Mitch Daniels or Ben Sasse were able to improve on that, during their time heading universities.
(And Bok's silence on the reasons for his replacement of Larry Summers illustrates, unintentionally, how some subjects are still unacceptable in many modern universities.)
I fucking hate Christmas. Honestly, same idiocy every year. Absurd pressure on people to buy presents to give to people who don't want them. What a waste of time.
That's a little unfair, but then I have limited presents to my immediate family only. I don't bother with presents for all of the various cousins, aunts and uncles. It definitely takes the pressure off and collectively we end up with less tat. We also have an unspoken rule to not get plastic shit made in China for each other which really helps avoid unwanted crap.
Various people told don't waste money you don't have buying stuff we don't want. Tokens are fine if you want. I then get grief on providing sufficient guidance on presents. Proper grief. So off they go buying clothes. Practically unwearable and of course they've cut the tags off. What's the point in a clothes industry where kids in Bangladesh have a miserable existence to make crap that people don't want?
And I have a few other examples. Its just performative pressure that isn't worth the bother. All I really need for Christmas is time. Spend some quality time with me, not working, having fun. I don't need you to stress buying me crap - especially when short of cash. And not just me. Have seen various gifts bought for relatives who were around my table. Why? Whose idea was that? Stupid idiot pressure buying commercialist crap.
We have a standard policy of kids getting a proper present and adults getting a hardback book
I got a book on making preserves,jams and chutnies.
Ace
I like people, if they’re not giving alcoholic drinks, to make donations on my behalf. Either to an MND charity, in memory of our daughter, or to a ‘responsible’ refugee charity.
My best gift this year, aside from the book, wasn’t the booze but it was a portable light for use in the loft.
There are some good beanie hats with built in rechargable lights. Very handy for the mothing as well as rummaging amongst the bat poo in the loft to retrieve the Christmas decs...
So Trump has had a phone call with Putin before meeting Zelensky again. That made the last meeting Zelensky crossed the Atlantic for go pretty badly, so I guess we have to prepare for the worst out of today's meeting.
He has to check in with his boss to take his orders.
And there are those on here, and elsewhere, cheering on Trump as he fawns before Putin
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
He would have more appeal to tactical Labour and LD voters than Kemi or Jenrick though. Kemi also needs to start winning back voters lost to Reform more than she has to if she is to avoid a VONC after the devolved and local elections next May. Certainly unless the Tories at least beat Labour in the NEV next May she will likely face a VONC from Tory MPs as they would decide Cleverly would get more tactical votes to beat Reform than she would or Jenrick would make more inroads with Reform voters than she would (though the latter is less likely than the former)
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Is it too late to rescind his citizenship? I don't understand why the decision seems to final, he's a dual national without birthright citizenship. We took away citizenship from Shamina Begum under much more tenuous circumstances and that decision has been backed by the courts multiple times.
Begum is a traitor, although as an alternative we could have thrown the Treason Act 1351 at her and she would now be doing life in Holloway. In contrast, Alaa has merely said some bad things online, which is something that right-wing people think you should be able to do.
Begum was a child who was, well that word we don’t mention. There is mitigation but she should be our problem..
Merely said bad things online. Yes, the comments are just a few bad things and nothing more 🙄 The Lucy Connolly defence. It only works for this waster as he made these tweets, IIRC, outside of the U.K.
They’re both as awful as each other in their own way and people defending him would never dream of defending the likes of her even though they’re two cheeks of the same arse.
I've never advocated taking away Lucy Connolly's citizenship, which seems to be the power many people want to give ministers and the courts to have on the basis of tweets alone.
That seems to be an absurdly low bar.
At least with Shamima Begum she was actually in Syria living with ISIS and could be said to have provided them with practical support.
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
He would have more appeal to tactical Labour and LD voters than Kemi or Jenrick though. Kemi also needs to start winning back voters lost to Reform more than she has to if she is to avoid a VONC after the devolved and local elections next May. Certainly unless the Tories at least beat Labour in the NEV next May she will likely face a VONC from Tory MPs.
Why on earth would the conservative party want another leader at a time when Badenoch is gaining in the pollls no matter May 26
There is 3 years plus to the next GE, and frankly Jenrick or Cleverly would not move the dial despite your repetituve posting of your views on this
I fucking hate Christmas. Honestly, same idiocy every year. Absurd pressure on people to buy presents to give to people who don't want them. What a waste of time.
We can’t afford the drop in GDP from cancelling Xmas no matter how good the idea.
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Is it too late to rescind his citizenship? I don't understand why the decision seems to final, he's a dual national without birthright citizenship. We took away citizenship from Shamina Begum under much more tenuous circumstances and that decision has been backed by the courts multiple times.
Begum is a traitor, although as an alternative we could have thrown the Treason Act 1351 at her and she would now be doing life in Holloway. In contrast, Alaa has merely said some bad things online, which is something that right-wing people think you should be able to do.
Begum was a child who was, well that word we don’t mention. There is mitigation but she should be our problem..
Merely said bad things online. Yes, the comments are just a few bad things and nothing more 🙄 The Lucy Connolly defence. It only works for this waster as he made these tweets, IIRC, outside of the U.K.
They’re both as awful as each other in their own way and people defending him would never dream of defending the likes of her even though they’re two cheeks of the same arse.
I've never advocated taking away Lucy Connolly's citizenship, which seems to be the power many people want to give ministers and the courts to have on the basis of tweets alone.
That seems to be an absurdly low bar.
At least with Shamima Begum she was actually in Syria living with ISIS and could be said to have provided them with practical support.
Sewing people into suicide jackets it pretty practical.
Bring her back, prosecute her, if guilty lock her up (in the words of the Trumpdozer)
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
He would have more appeal to tactical Labour and LD voters than Kemi or Jenrick though. Kemi also needs to start winning back voters lost to Reform more than she has to if she is to avoid a VONC after the devolved and local elections next May. Certainly unless the Tories at least beat Labour in the NEV next May she will likely face a VONC from Tory MPs.
Why on earth would the conservative party want another leader at a time when Badenoch is gaining in the pollls no matter May 26
There is 3 years plus to the next GE, and frankly Jenrick or Cleverly would not move the dial despite your repetituve posting of your views on this
She has gained a bit, the Tories are still only polling around 18-20% ie still at least about 4% down on the 24% Sunak got when he led the Tories to landslide defeat last year.
As I said, even if she doesn't beat Reform in the local and devolved elections next May she at minimum has to beat Labour, otherwise Tory MPs will fear for their seats and the letters will go in to ensure a VONC is held
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Amazing that this no mark still doesn’t realise that the biggest part of this scandal is not the actions of Starmer’s government to secure this person’s release, but the granting of citizenship by the Tory party to an extremist with such tenuous links to the Uk.
If I understand correctly, his citizenship was granted on the basis that his mother is British. Since citizenship by birth in Britain was abolished in the 80s that's the same basis that every other British citizen has their citizenship, although in most cases both parents will be British.
Would you be in favour of other British citizens losing their British citizenship due to tweets they've made?
That's a separate discussion. He didn't have British citizenship automatically and had to apply for it, and he didn't go through the normal process of other people in that situation who have to attend a ceremony and swear loyalty to the UK.
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Amazing that this no mark still doesn’t realise that the biggest part of this scandal is not the actions of Starmer’s government to secure this person’s release, but the granting of citizenship by the Tory party to an extremist with such tenuous links to the Uk.
If I understand correctly, his citizenship was granted on the basis that his mother is British. Since citizenship by birth in Britain was abolished in the 80s that's the same basis that every other British citizen has their citizenship, although in most cases both parents will be British.
Would you be in favour of other British citizens losing their British citizenship due to tweets they've made?
If I understand it correctly, the “good character” component was struck down by the echr in 2019, but ordinarily someone granted citizenship under the articles he was, would need to attend a ceremony and swear allegiance.
To your general point, yes of course there should be grounds to deny someone citizenship that is a convicted criminal in their own country, has espoused extremist viewpoints, bragged publicly that they hate Britain and incited racially based violence. Proper countries don’t adopt a box tick approach to something as sacred as citizenship and neither should we.
So Trump has had a phone call with Putin before meeting Zelensky again. That made the last meeting Zelensky crossed the Atlantic for go pretty badly, so I guess we have to prepare for the worst out of today's meeting.
He has to check in with his boss to take his orders.
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Is it too late to rescind his citizenship? I don't understand why the decision seems to final, he's a dual national without birthright citizenship. We took away citizenship from Shamina Begum under much more tenuous circumstances and that decision has been backed by the courts multiple times.
Begum is a traitor, although as an alternative we could have thrown the Treason Act 1351 at her and she would now be doing life in Holloway. In contrast, Alaa has merely said some bad things online, which is something that right-wing people think you should be able to do.
Begum was a child who was, well that word we don’t mention. There is mitigation but she should be our problem..
Merely said bad things online. Yes, the comments are just a few bad things and nothing more 🙄 The Lucy Connolly defence. It only works for this waster as he made these tweets, IIRC, outside of the U.K.
They’re both as awful as each other in their own way and people defending him would never dream of defending the likes of her even though they’re two cheeks of the same arse.
I've never advocated taking away Lucy Connolly's citizenship, which seems to be the power many people want to give ministers and the courts to have on the basis of tweets alone.
That seems to be an absurdly low bar.
At least with Shamima Begum she was actually in Syria living with ISIS and could be said to have provided them with practical support.
Sewing people into suicide jackets it pretty practical.
Bring her back, prosecute her, if guilty lock her up (in the words of the Trumpdozer)
Is there any evidence that the Egyptian bloke has done anything remotely similar?
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Amazing that this no mark still doesn’t realise that the biggest part of this scandal is not the actions of Starmer’s government to secure this person’s release, but the granting of citizenship by the Tory party to an extremist with such tenuous links to the Uk.
If I understand correctly, his citizenship was granted on the basis that his mother is British. Since citizenship by birth in Britain was abolished in the 80s that's the same basis that every other British citizen has their citizenship, although in most cases both parents will be British.
Would you be in favour of other British citizens losing their British citizenship due to tweets they've made?
Shirley, what we should have done is
- grant him citizenship - We he arrived here, forced him to plead guilt for the tweets. Straight to a U.K. jail.
Then everyone would be happy. Season of Good Cheer and all?
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
He would have more appeal to tactical Labour and LD voters than Kemi or Jenrick though. Kemi also needs to start winning back voters lost to Reform more than she has to if she is to avoid a VONC after the devolved and local elections next May. Certainly unless the Tories at least beat Labour in the NEV next May she will likely face a VONC from Tory MPs.
Why on earth would the conservative party want another leader at a time when Badenoch is gaining in the pollls no matter May 26
There is 3 years plus to the next GE, and frankly Jenrick or Cleverly would not move the dial despite your repetituve posting of your views on this
She has gained a bit, the Tories are still only polling around 18-20% ie still at least about 4% down on the 24% Sunak got when he led the Tories to landslide defeat last year.
As I said, even if she doesn't beat Reform in the local and devolved elections next May she at minimum has to beat Labour, otherwise Tory MPs will fear for their seats and the letters will go in to ensure a VONC is held
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Amazing that this no mark still doesn’t realise that the biggest part of this scandal is not the actions of Starmer’s government to secure this person’s release, but the granting of citizenship by the Tory party to an extremist with such tenuous links to the Uk.
If I understand correctly, his citizenship was granted on the basis that his mother is British. Since citizenship by birth in Britain was abolished in the 80s that's the same basis that every other British citizen has their citizenship, although in most cases both parents will be British.
Would you be in favour of other British citizens losing their British citizenship due to tweets they've made?
If I understand it correctly, the “good character” component was struck down by the echr in 2019, but ordinarily someone granted citizenship under the articles he was, would need to attend a ceremony and swear allegiance.
To your general point, yes of course there should be grounds to deny someone citizenship that is a convicted criminal in their own country, has espoused extremist viewpoints, bragged publicly that they hate Britain and incited racially based violence. Proper countries don’t adopt a box tick approach to something as sacred as citizenship and neither should we.
Define “good character”
IIRC the FA determined, via lawyers, that being a wanted UN designated war criminal didn’t violate the “fit and proper” rule for owners of FA football clubs.
Anyone found out if he wants to buy a U.K. football club?
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
He would have more appeal to tactical Labour and LD voters than Kemi or Jenrick though. Kemi also needs to start winning back voters lost to Reform more than she has to if she is to avoid a VONC after the devolved and local elections next May. Certainly unless the Tories at least beat Labour in the NEV next May she will likely face a VONC from Tory MPs.
Why on earth would the conservative party want another leader at a time when Badenoch is gaining in the pollls no matter May 26
There is 3 years plus to the next GE, and frankly Jenrick or Cleverly would not move the dial despite your repetituve posting of your views on this
She has gained a bit, the Tories are still only polling around 18-20% ie still at least about 4% down on the 24% Sunak got when he led the Tories to landslide defeat last year.
As I said, even if she doesn't beat Reform in the local and devolved elections next May she at minimum has to beat Labour, otherwise Tory MPs will fear for their seats and the letters will go in to ensure a VONC is held
That is your opinion, others are available
I'm sure there are BigG but @HYUFD's opinion of what is going on inside the Conservative party is always worth reading.
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
He would have more appeal to tactical Labour and LD voters than Kemi or Jenrick though. Kemi also needs to start winning back voters lost to Reform more than she has to if she is to avoid a VONC after the devolved and local elections next May. Certainly unless the Tories at least beat Labour in the NEV next May she will likely face a VONC from Tory MPs.
Why on earth would the conservative party want another leader at a time when Badenoch is gaining in the pollls no matter May 26
There is 3 years plus to the next GE, and frankly Jenrick or Cleverly would not move the dial despite your repetituve posting of your views on this
Kemi as PM is probably the best chance that multiculturalism in the UK will have of working and, given the demographic trend, it’s important that it does work
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
The whole saga of Alaa Abd El-Fattah shows why Reform are the deserved favourites to win the next election. Both main parties have long been more concerned with projecting the right vibes about "British values" than engaging with reality.
The reality is that, by law, he was entitled to British citizenship. Once he had it it was the duty of the foreign office to advocate for his release.
The only misstep here was the government trumpeting his release
That's not true. It would only have been automatic if it had been his father rather than his mother who was born in the UK. Otherwise you have to apply and it's a legal requirement to attend a ceremony and swear allegience to the monarch and pledge loyalty to the UK.
Never knew that there was this bias against female British born women and their offspring. My OH was born in Germany while her father was in the military. So if her mother was serving she’d be German. Very odd.
I fucking hate Christmas. Honestly, same idiocy every year. Absurd pressure on people to buy presents to give to people who don't want them. What a waste of time.
That's a little unfair, but then I have limited presents to my immediate family only. I don't bother with presents for all of the various cousins, aunts and uncles. It definitely takes the pressure off and collectively we end up with less tat. We also have an unspoken rule to not get plastic shit made in China for each other which really helps avoid unwanted crap.
Various people told don't waste money you don't have buying stuff we don't want. Tokens are fine if you want. I then get grief on providing sufficient guidance on presents. Proper grief. So off they go buying clothes. Practically unwearable and of course they've cut the tags off. What's the point in a clothes industry where kids in Bangladesh have a miserable existence to make crap that people don't want?
And I have a few other examples. Its just performative pressure that isn't worth the bother. All I really need for Christmas is time. Spend some quality time with me, not working, having fun. I don't need you to stress buying me crap - especially when short of cash. And not just me. Have seen various gifts bought for relatives who were around my table. Why? Whose idea was that? Stupid idiot pressure buying commercialist crap.
We have a standard policy of kids getting a proper present and adults getting a hardback book
My extended family declared a present amnesty a couple of Christmases ago when youngest neice turned 18. No presents apart from within each nuclear family, just cards. It works well.
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
He would have more appeal to tactical Labour and LD voters than Kemi or Jenrick though. Kemi also needs to start winning back voters lost to Reform more than she has to if she is to avoid a VONC after the devolved and local elections next May. Certainly unless the Tories at least beat Labour in the NEV next May she will likely face a VONC from Tory MPs.
Why on earth would the conservative party want another leader at a time when Badenoch is gaining in the pollls no matter May 26
There is 3 years plus to the next GE, and frankly Jenrick or Cleverly would not move the dial despite your repetituve posting of your views on this
Kemi as PM is probably the best chance that multiculturalism in the UK will have of working and, given the demographic trend, it’s important that it does work
Couldn’t disagree more. I want multi racialism to be a roaring success but multiculturalism sent to the dustbin of history.
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Amazing that this no mark still doesn’t realise that the biggest part of this scandal is not the actions of Starmer’s government to secure this person’s release, but the granting of citizenship by the Tory party to an extremist with such tenuous links to the Uk.
If I understand correctly, his citizenship was granted on the basis that his mother is British. Since citizenship by birth in Britain was abolished in the 80s that's the same basis that every other British citizen has their citizenship, although in most cases both parents will be British.
Would you be in favour of other British citizens losing their British citizenship due to tweets they've made?
Shirley, what we should have done is
- grant him citizenship - We he arrived here, forced him to plead guilt for the tweets. Straight to a U.K. jail.
Then everyone would be happy. Season of Good Cheer and all?
Surely the free speech union would be campaigning for his release.......
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
He would have more appeal to tactical Labour and LD voters than Kemi or Jenrick though. Kemi also needs to start winning back voters lost to Reform more than she has to if she is to avoid a VONC after the devolved and local elections next May. Certainly unless the Tories at least beat Labour in the NEV next May she will likely face a VONC from Tory MPs.
Why on earth would the conservative party want another leader at a time when Badenoch is gaining in the pollls no matter May 26
There is 3 years plus to the next GE, and frankly Jenrick or Cleverly would not move the dial despite your repetituve posting of your views on this
Kemi as PM is probably the best chance that multiculturalism in the UK will have of working and, given the demographic trend, it’s important that it does work
Couldn’t disagree more. I want multi racialism to be a roaring success but multiculturalism sent to the dustbin of history.
To be fair, you’re probably right. The problem of Islamic assimilation wouldn’t be solved by a black, female right winger in charge, but I think it would make a lot of race and gender power issues better without making the Muslim problem worse.
I fucking hate Christmas. Honestly, same idiocy every year. Absurd pressure on people to buy presents to give to people who don't want them. What a waste of time.
That's a little unfair, but then I have limited presents to my immediate family only. I don't bother with presents for all of the various cousins, aunts and uncles. It definitely takes the pressure off and collectively we end up with less tat. We also have an unspoken rule to not get plastic shit made in China for each other which really helps avoid unwanted crap.
Various people told don't waste money you don't have buying stuff we don't want. Tokens are fine if you want. I then get grief on providing sufficient guidance on presents. Proper grief. So off they go buying clothes. Practically unwearable and of course they've cut the tags off. What's the point in a clothes industry where kids in Bangladesh have a miserable existence to make crap that people don't want?
And I have a few other examples. Its just performative pressure that isn't worth the bother. All I really need for Christmas is time. Spend some quality time with me, not working, having fun. I don't need you to stress buying me crap - especially when short of cash. And not just me. Have seen various gifts bought for relatives who were around my table. Why? Whose idea was that? Stupid idiot pressure buying commercialist crap.
We have a standard policy of kids getting a proper present and adults getting a hardback book
My extended family declared a present amnesty a couple of Christmases ago when youngest neice turned 18. No presents apart from within each nuclear family, just cards. It works well.
Grandparents are excluded.
I give 10 presents (plus cash for the postie and the porter)
Five grandchildren each get a book with £100 in £10 notes interleaved in the book. It makes sure they open it. My three children each get £2000 into their bank account, My two sons-in-law each get a pair of socks. Simple. No pressure. In return I get books and booze and the occasional socks.
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Amazing that this no mark still doesn’t realise that the biggest part of this scandal is not the actions of Starmer’s government to secure this person’s release, but the granting of citizenship by the Tory party to an extremist with such tenuous links to the Uk.
If I understand correctly, his citizenship was granted on the basis that his mother is British. Since citizenship by birth in Britain was abolished in the 80s that's the same basis that every other British citizen has their citizenship, although in most cases both parents will be British.
Would you be in favour of other British citizens losing their British citizenship due to tweets they've made?
That's a separate discussion. He didn't have British citizenship automatically and had to apply for it, and he didn't go through the normal process of other people in that situation who have to attend a ceremony and swear loyalty to the UK.
Fair enough. You looked into the detail of this more than I did.
I’ve become quite entranced with a retired chap on X called Mike who lives in Walsall, and spends his time litter picking and painting over graffiti.
Had a spare hour just now so just did a loop in the village, filled a whole black bin bag, drinks cans, coffee cups, vapes, chewing gum wrappers etc… most of it chucked out of car windows but enough too from locals (a LOT of dog mess bags).
The most likely determinant of whether people throw litter is whether there is already litter. A different footpath loop tomorrow morning I think…
I challenge all ye to do the same before the year is out!
My mobility isn't good enough nowadays to take up your challenge, but it's part of my daily routine to pick up litter when I come across it & put it in the next bin I come to. That must have shifted quite a lot of litter over the years.
It helps that I've never had a car, so all my comings & goings have involved walking, even if only before/after the public transport part.
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
The whole saga of Alaa Abd El-Fattah shows why Reform are the deserved favourites to win the next election. Both main parties have long been more concerned with projecting the right vibes about "British values" than engaging with reality.
The reality is that, by law, he was entitled to British citizenship. Once he had it it was the duty of the foreign office to advocate for his release.
The only misstep here was the government trumpeting his release
That's not true. It would only have been automatic if it had been his father rather than his mother who was born in the UK. Otherwise you have to apply and it's a legal requirement to attend a ceremony and swear allegience to the monarch and pledge loyalty to the UK.
Yes you have to apply/fill out paperwork but there is no discretion if the criteria are met
I know someone personally who met all the criteria and then had their application refused for not attending the citizenship ceremony, so in practice there was discretion given that he was in an Egyptian prison at the time.
How very convenient you know someone personally who exactly mirrors the case in discussion and gives the result that you want. Link?
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
The whole saga of Alaa Abd El-Fattah shows why Reform are the deserved favourites to win the next election. Both main parties have long been more concerned with projecting the right vibes about "British values" than engaging with reality.
The reality is that, by law, he was entitled to British citizenship. Once he had it it was the duty of the foreign office to advocate for his release.
The only misstep here was the government trumpeting his release
I thought diplomatic assistance was usually limited for dual citizens when in their other homeland?
That’s a fair point, although I’m sure advocacy would continue
The way it usually works is that if you are a citizen of A & B, you are legally only a citizen of A, when in A. So no right of consular access from B etc.
Yes but the government would continue to advocate for release
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
The whole saga of Alaa Abd El-Fattah shows why Reform are the deserved favourites to win the next election. Both main parties have long been more concerned with projecting the right vibes about "British values" than engaging with reality.
The reality is that, by law, he was entitled to British citizenship. Once he had it it was the duty of the foreign office to advocate for his release.
The only misstep here was the government trumpeting his release
That's not true. It would only have been automatic if it had been his father rather than his mother who was born in the UK. Otherwise you have to apply and it's a legal requirement to attend a ceremony and swear allegience to the monarch and pledge loyalty to the UK.
Yes you have to apply/fill out paperwork but there is no discretion if the criteria are met
I know someone personally who met all the criteria and then had their application refused for not attending the citizenship ceremony, so in practice there was discretion given that he was in an Egyptian prison at the time.
How very convenient you know someone personally who exactly mirrors the case in discussion and gives the result that you want. Link?
I fucking hate Christmas. Honestly, same idiocy every year. Absurd pressure on people to buy presents to give to people who don't want them. What a waste of time.
That's a little unfair, but then I have limited presents to my immediate family only. I don't bother with presents for all of the various cousins, aunts and uncles. It definitely takes the pressure off and collectively we end up with less tat. We also have an unspoken rule to not get plastic shit made in China for each other which really helps avoid unwanted crap.
Various people told don't waste money you don't have buying stuff we don't want. Tokens are fine if you want. I then get grief on providing sufficient guidance on presents. Proper grief. So off they go buying clothes. Practically unwearable and of course they've cut the tags off. What's the point in a clothes industry where kids in Bangladesh have a miserable existence to make crap that people don't want?
And I have a few other examples. Its just performative pressure that isn't worth the bother. All I really need for Christmas is time. Spend some quality time with me, not working, having fun. I don't need you to stress buying me crap - especially when short of cash. And not just me. Have seen various gifts bought for relatives who were around my table. Why? Whose idea was that? Stupid idiot pressure buying commercialist crap.
We have a standard policy of kids getting a proper present and adults getting a hardback book
My extended family declared a present amnesty a couple of Christmases ago when youngest neice turned 18. No presents apart from within each nuclear family, just cards. It works well.
Grandparents are excluded.
I give 10 presents (plus cash for the postie and the porter)
Five grandchildren each get a book with £100 in £10 notes interleaved in the book. It makes sure they open it. My three children each get £2000 into their bank account, My two sons-in-law each get a pair of socks. Simple. No pressure. In return I get books and booze and the occasional socks.
I think my children are wealthier than my wife and myself. However I recognise that there are some small IHT issues.
'The incoming Archbishop of Canterbury has been urged to scrap plans to spend £100m over the Church of England's historical links to slavery.
In a letter seen by the Sunday Times, external, a group of Conservative MPs and peers has urged Dame Sarah Mullally to stop the Church from spending the money.
They claim the funds can only legally be spent on churches and the payment of clergy wages.
In a statement to the paper, the Church Commissioners said that arrangements for the fund were being "developed transparently - in line with charity law".
Mullally, who currently serves as the Bishop of London, will take up her new role as the first-ever female Archbishop of Canterbury next month.
The Church of England's slavery links proposal was announced in January 2023, external following the publication of a report into the Church's historical links to transatlantic slavery.
The report, external, requested by the Church's financing arm - the Church Commissioners - found that a fund established by Queen Anne in 1704 to help poor Anglican clergy was used to finance "great evil".
According to the report, the fund, known as Queen Anne's Bounty, invested in African chattel enslavement and took donations derived from it.
After the report's publication, the then-Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, said he was "deeply sorry" for the links and said action would be taken to address the Church's "shameful past".
The Church Commissioners announced a new £100m fund, committed over a nine-year period, to be spent on "a programme of investment, research and engagement" in communities damaged by the enslavement of African people during the transatlantic slave trade.
However, in their letter to Mullally, MPs and peers have urged the Church to focus on "strengthening parishes" rather than on pursuing what they describe as "high-profile and legally dubious vanity projects".' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2e7w03067o
There are a couple of things going on here. I'm not at all sure there is a viable legal case - there will be various precedents in a period since 1704, but I doubt they will try it.
There's obviously populist right politics, with a seach for attention - this is people like Lam, Philp and Lord Biggar (Regent College Vancouver, and Latimer House, Cambridge, amongst others).
But politically it will be interesting, and for pressure they will leverage Parliamentary on normally non-contentious Church of England legislation in the Ecclesiastical Committee, and gum up the works.
That was a game Danny Kruger was playing last autumn.
Indeed, this is populism.
While sympathetic though to the MPs and peers pushing more funds for Parishes, if any income from the 1704 bounty can be directly linked to investments in slave trading companies I can see why the C of E commissioners are doing what they are proposing. That income, only that income mind, should be used to fund projects in Africa and the Caribbean and maybe support churches with large Black British congregations England.
I know a few aristocratic families maybe even the King are also looking at their assets to see if they can make reparations for any income from slavery. Older companies like Barclays and Greene King and Lloyds of London and RBS (now Natwest) are also potentially affected. Greene King is looking into reparations and Lloyds of London invests in BAME projects as a result, as did RBS. Oxbridge colleges and some of the oldest public schools too could be implicated, some colleges increasing scholarships for black students from the Caribbean and Africa https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/18/barclays-hsbc-and-lloyds-among-uk-banks-that-had-links-to-slavery
IMHO, if money is being used for good purposes, 2-300 years down the line, it has lost its taint. More than a few people who have created fortunes did so by unethical means.
I'm intrigued. Who do you have in mind that made their fortunes by ethical means?
A minority really, mostly nonconformists.
The Rowntrees and Cadburys might be your best bets.
Two families who come over as virtual saints, by comparison to many contemporaries.
And, while it is counter-intuitive, acting fairly and honestly, towards others, served them well, financially.
Apparently Quakers succeeded in business because for them a handshake was enough to seal a deal, and they didn't get bogged down in over-legalistic interpretation of contracts.
Also, they weren't allowed into the universities, armed forces, C of E, and law because they'd have to sign up to the C of E, etc. etc. So they focussed laserlike on business.
Also, their family networks - distributed but highly functional when combinedf with their hierarchy of Meetings (=congregations/presbyteries) and regular local, district and national get togethers.
Finally they were so worried about business cred that if one of them was going bust the others would intervene and at least make sure the debts were paid afap. Or if someone was wilfully dishonest or bankrupt he'd be thrown out, just as if he'd committed a serious moral opprobrium like adultery or theft - which last, in their view, he had. Which is completely alien to the US business ethos and the average UK dodgy double glazing sequentially bankrupt* as much complained about on here.
Very interesting folk, the Society of Friends, once they'd settled dowm from their charismatic beginnings.
Though there was a big problem with the arms trade in the C18 and early C19 once they sat down and tdhought about it. Just been reading an interesting book on this issue and the Birmingham Quakers.
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
The whole saga of Alaa Abd El-Fattah shows why Reform are the deserved favourites to win the next election. Both main parties have long been more concerned with projecting the right vibes about "British values" than engaging with reality.
The reality is that, by law, he was entitled to British citizenship. Once he had it it was the duty of the foreign office to advocate for his release.
The only misstep here was the government trumpeting his release
I thought diplomatic assistance was usually limited for dual citizens when in their other homeland?
That’s a fair point, although I’m sure advocacy would continue
The way it usually works is that if you are a citizen of A & B, you are legally only a citizen of A, when in A. So no right of consular access from B etc.
Yes but the government would continue to advocate for release
Why? We don't advocate for the release of British citizens all over the world simply because they are British, and it's obviously not the case that we regard it as unacceptable to punish people for online speech.
I fucking hate Christmas. Honestly, same idiocy every year. Absurd pressure on people to buy presents to give to people who don't want them. What a waste of time.
That's a little unfair, but then I have limited presents to my immediate family only. I don't bother with presents for all of the various cousins, aunts and uncles. It definitely takes the pressure off and collectively we end up with less tat. We also have an unspoken rule to not get plastic shit made in China for each other which really helps avoid unwanted crap.
Various people told don't waste money you don't have buying stuff we don't want. Tokens are fine if you want. I then get grief on providing sufficient guidance on presents. Proper grief. So off they go buying clothes. Practically unwearable and of course they've cut the tags off. What's the point in a clothes industry where kids in Bangladesh have a miserable existence to make crap that people don't want?
And I have a few other examples. Its just performative pressure that isn't worth the bother. All I really need for Christmas is time. Spend some quality time with me, not working, having fun. I don't need you to stress buying me crap - especially when short of cash. And not just me. Have seen various gifts bought for relatives who were around my table. Why? Whose idea was that? Stupid idiot pressure buying commercialist crap.
This is known technically by economists in their time off from ballsing up budget forecasts as the deadweight loss of Christmas.
I fucking hate Christmas. Honestly, same idiocy every year. Absurd pressure on people to buy presents to give to people who don't want them. What a waste of time.
We can’t afford the drop in GDP from cancelling Xmas no matter how good the idea.
Why not?
We spend less money on Chinese tat. Balance of payments improves, GBP goes down and the environment benefits.
Retail sales are lower, which may come at some cost to employment but the likes of Amazon aren’t very high value jobs anyway (and they don’t pay a huge amount of tax).
Reduction in package deliveries reducing congestion on the streets and environmental benefits.
Overall I think we can afford to cancel Christmas…
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Amazing that this no mark still doesn’t realise that the biggest part of this scandal is not the actions of Starmer’s government to secure this person’s release, but the granting of citizenship by the Tory party to an extremist with such tenuous links to the Uk.
As I understand it they had no choice as his Mother was born in this country
However, how his tweets in 2010-11 remained under the radar is a question that needs to be addressed
There is an extensive list of politicians who demanded his release last year which does beg the question why ?
Is there a statute of limitations on incitement to racial hatred? In general, English law doesn't have them so maybe a prosecution could be brought.
I do not know, but it does seem this row has come about because nobody was aware of these old tweets and if Starmer and his cabinet hadn't made such an issue about it it probably wouldn't have been noticed
I fucking hate Christmas. Honestly, same idiocy every year. Absurd pressure on people to buy presents to give to people who don't want them. What a waste of time.
We can’t afford the drop in GDP from cancelling Xmas no matter how good the idea.
Why not?
We spend less money on Chinese tat. Balance of payments improves, GBP goes down and the environment benefits.
Retail sales are lower, which may come at some cost to employment but the likes of Amazon aren’t very high value jobs anyway (and they don’t pay a huge amount of tax).
Reduction in package deliveries reducing congestion on the streets and environmental benefits.
Overall I think we can afford to cancel Christmas...
We don't need to cancel Christmas. We just need to cancel the gift-giving obligation.
Limit everyone to giving one gift, and then they will save it for something worthwhile and meaningful.
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
The whole saga of Alaa Abd El-Fattah shows why Reform are the deserved favourites to win the next election. Both main parties have long been more concerned with projecting the right vibes about "British values" than engaging with reality.
The reality is that, by law, he was entitled to British citizenship. Once he had it it was the duty of the foreign office to advocate for his release.
The only misstep here was the government trumpeting his release
That's not true. It would only have been automatic if it had been his father rather than his mother who was born in the UK. Otherwise you have to apply and it's a legal requirement to attend a ceremony and swear allegience to the monarch and pledge loyalty to the UK.
Yes you have to apply/fill out paperwork but there is no discretion if the criteria are met
I know someone personally who met all the criteria and then had their application refused for not attending the citizenship ceremony, so in practice there was discretion given that he was in an Egyptian prison at the time.
How very convenient you know someone personally who exactly mirrors the case in discussion and gives the result that you want. Link?
I fucking hate Christmas. Honestly, same idiocy every year. Absurd pressure on people to buy presents to give to people who don't want them. What a waste of time.
That's a little unfair, but then I have limited presents to my immediate family only. I don't bother with presents for all of the various cousins, aunts and uncles. It definitely takes the pressure off and collectively we end up with less tat. We also have an unspoken rule to not get plastic shit made in China for each other which really helps avoid unwanted crap.
Various people told don't waste money you don't have buying stuff we don't want. Tokens are fine if you want. I then get grief on providing sufficient guidance on presents. Proper grief. So off they go buying clothes. Practically unwearable and of course they've cut the tags off. What's the point in a clothes industry where kids in Bangladesh have a miserable existence to make crap that people don't want?
And I have a few other examples. Its just performative pressure that isn't worth the bother. All I really need for Christmas is time. Spend some quality time with me, not working, having fun. I don't need you to stress buying me crap - especially when short of cash. And not just me. Have seen various gifts bought for relatives who were around my table. Why? Whose idea was that? Stupid idiot pressure buying commercialist crap.
We have a standard policy of kids getting a proper present and adults getting a hardback book
My extended family declared a present amnesty a couple of Christmases ago when youngest neice turned 18. No presents apart from within each nuclear family, just cards. It works well.
Grandparents are excluded.
I give 10 presents (plus cash for the postie and the porter)
Five grandchildren each get a book with £100 in £10 notes interleaved in the book. It makes sure they open it. My three children each get £2000 into their bank account, My two sons-in-law each get a pair of socks. Simple. No pressure. In return I get books and booze and the occasional socks.
'My two sons-in-law each get a pair of socks.' That rather reminds me of Shakespeare bequeathing his second best bed to his wife.
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Amazing that this no mark still doesn’t realise that the biggest part of this scandal is not the actions of Starmer’s government to secure this person’s release, but the granting of citizenship by the Tory party to an extremist with such tenuous links to the Uk.
If I understand correctly, his citizenship was granted on the basis that his mother is British. Since citizenship by birth in Britain was abolished in the 80s that's the same basis that every other British citizen has their citizenship, although in most cases both parents will be British.
Would you be in favour of other British citizens losing their British citizenship due to tweets they've made?
Shirley, what we should have done is
- grant him citizenship - We he arrived here, forced him to plead guilt for the tweets. Straight to a U.K. jail.
Then everyone would be happy. Season of Good Cheer and all?
Surely the free speech union would be campaigning for his release.......
I fucking hate Christmas. Honestly, same idiocy every year. Absurd pressure on people to buy presents to give to people who don't want them. What a waste of time.
That's a little unfair, but then I have limited presents to my immediate family only. I don't bother with presents for all of the various cousins, aunts and uncles. It definitely takes the pressure off and collectively we end up with less tat. We also have an unspoken rule to not get plastic shit made in China for each other which really helps avoid unwanted crap.
Various people told don't waste money you don't have buying stuff we don't want. Tokens are fine if you want. I then get grief on providing sufficient guidance on presents. Proper grief. So off they go buying clothes. Practically unwearable and of course they've cut the tags off. What's the point in a clothes industry where kids in Bangladesh have a miserable existence to make crap that people don't want?
And I have a few other examples. Its just performative pressure that isn't worth the bother. All I really need for Christmas is time. Spend some quality time with me, not working, having fun. I don't need you to stress buying me crap - especially when short of cash. And not just me. Have seen various gifts bought for relatives who were around my table. Why? Whose idea was that? Stupid idiot pressure buying commercialist crap.
We have a standard policy of kids getting a proper present and adults getting a hardback book
My extended family declared a present amnesty a couple of Christmases ago when youngest neice turned 18. No presents apart from within each nuclear family, just cards. It works well.
Grandparents are excluded.
I give 10 presents (plus cash for the postie and the porter)
Five grandchildren each get a book with £100 in £10 notes interleaved in the book. It makes sure they open it. My three children each get £2000 into their bank account, My two sons-in-law each get a pair of socks. Simple. No pressure. In return I get books and booze and the occasional socks.
'My two sons-in-law each get a pair of socks.' That rather reminds me of Shakespeare bequeathing his second best bed to his wife.
Are they Christmas socks though?
Because that's the epitome of Bah Humbug. Give somebody something once a year they can only use once a year.
I fucking hate Christmas. Honestly, same idiocy every year. Absurd pressure on people to buy presents to give to people who don't want them. What a waste of time.
That's a little unfair, but then I have limited presents to my immediate family only. I don't bother with presents for all of the various cousins, aunts and uncles. It definitely takes the pressure off and collectively we end up with less tat. We also have an unspoken rule to not get plastic shit made in China for each other which really helps avoid unwanted crap.
Various people told don't waste money you don't have buying stuff we don't want. Tokens are fine if you want. I then get grief on providing sufficient guidance on presents. Proper grief. So off they go buying clothes. Practically unwearable and of course they've cut the tags off. What's the point in a clothes industry where kids in Bangladesh have a miserable existence to make crap that people don't want?
And I have a few other examples. Its just performative pressure that isn't worth the bother. All I really need for Christmas is time. Spend some quality time with me, not working, having fun. I don't need you to stress buying me crap - especially when short of cash. And not just me. Have seen various gifts bought for relatives who were around my table. Why? Whose idea was that? Stupid idiot pressure buying commercialist crap.
We have a standard policy of kids getting a proper present and adults getting a hardback book
My extended family declared a present amnesty a couple of Christmases ago when youngest neice turned 18. No presents apart from within each nuclear family, just cards. It works well.
Grandparents are excluded.
I give 10 presents (plus cash for the postie and the porter)
Five grandchildren each get a book with £100 in £10 notes interleaved in the book. It makes sure they open it. My three children each get £2000 into their bank account, My two sons-in-law each get a pair of socks. Simple. No pressure. In return I get books and booze and the occasional socks.
'My two sons-in-law each get a pair of socks.' That rather reminds me of Shakespeare bequeathing his second best bed to his wife.
Are they Christmas socks though?
Because that's the epitome of Bah Humbug. Give somebody something once a year they can only use once a year.
Or the shops can sell, for that matter. What I don't understand is the current fashion for Xmas sweaters, socks, for all I know athletic supporters, from all sorts of organizations, leading to some distinctly startling combinations (no pun intended). For instance, no wonder this lot is being sold off cheap - time of year ...
'The incoming Archbishop of Canterbury has been urged to scrap plans to spend £100m over the Church of England's historical links to slavery.
In a letter seen by the Sunday Times, external, a group of Conservative MPs and peers has urged Dame Sarah Mullally to stop the Church from spending the money.
They claim the funds can only legally be spent on churches and the payment of clergy wages.
In a statement to the paper, the Church Commissioners said that arrangements for the fund were being "developed transparently - in line with charity law".
Mullally, who currently serves as the Bishop of London, will take up her new role as the first-ever female Archbishop of Canterbury next month.
The Church of England's slavery links proposal was announced in January 2023, external following the publication of a report into the Church's historical links to transatlantic slavery.
The report, external, requested by the Church's financing arm - the Church Commissioners - found that a fund established by Queen Anne in 1704 to help poor Anglican clergy was used to finance "great evil".
According to the report, the fund, known as Queen Anne's Bounty, invested in African chattel enslavement and took donations derived from it.
After the report's publication, the then-Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, said he was "deeply sorry" for the links and said action would be taken to address the Church's "shameful past".
The Church Commissioners announced a new £100m fund, committed over a nine-year period, to be spent on "a programme of investment, research and engagement" in communities damaged by the enslavement of African people during the transatlantic slave trade.
However, in their letter to Mullally, MPs and peers have urged the Church to focus on "strengthening parishes" rather than on pursuing what they describe as "high-profile and legally dubious vanity projects".' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2e7w03067o
There are a couple of things going on here. I'm not at all sure there is a viable legal case - there will be various precedents in a period since 1704, but I doubt they will try it.
There's obviously populist right politics, with a seach for attention - this is people like Lam, Philp and Lord Biggar (Regent College Vancouver, and Latimer House, Cambridge, amongst others).
But politically it will be interesting, and for pressure they will leverage Parliamentary on normally non-contentious Church of England legislation in the Ecclesiastical Committee, and gum up the works.
That was a game Danny Kruger was playing last autumn.
Indeed, this is populism.
While sympathetic though to the MPs and peers pushing more funds for Parishes, if any income from the 1704 bounty can be directly linked to investments in slave trading companies I can see why the C of E commissioners are doing what they are proposing. That income, only that income mind, should be used to fund projects in Africa and the Caribbean and maybe support churches with large Black British congregations England.
I know a few aristocratic families maybe even the King are also looking at their assets to see if they can make reparations for any income from slavery. Older companies like Barclays and Greene King and Lloyds of London and RBS (now Natwest) are also potentially affected. Greene King is looking into reparations and Lloyds of London invests in BAME projects as a result, as did RBS. Oxbridge colleges and some of the oldest public schools too could be implicated, some colleges increasing scholarships for black students from the Caribbean and Africa https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/18/barclays-hsbc-and-lloyds-among-uk-banks-that-had-links-to-slavery
IMHO, if money is being used for good purposes, 2-300 years down the line, it has lost its taint. More than a few people who have created fortunes did so by unethical means.
I'm intrigued. Who do you have in mind that made their fortunes by ethical means?
A minority really, mostly nonconformists.
The Rowntrees and Cadburys might be your best bets.
Two families who come over as virtual saints, by comparison to many contemporaries.
And, while it is counter-intuitive, acting fairly and honestly, towards others, served them well, financially.
Apparently Quakers succeeded in business because for them a handshake was enough to seal a deal, and they didn't get bogged down in over-legalistic interpretation of contracts.
Also, they weren't allowed into the universities, armed forces, C of E, and law because they'd have to sign up to the C of E, etc. etc. So they focussed laserlike on business.
Also, their family networks - distributed but highly functional when combinedf with their hierarchy of Meetings (=congregations/presbyteries) and regular local, district and national get togethers.
Finally they were so worried about business cred that if one of them was going bust the others would intervene and at least make sure the debts were paid afap. Or if someone was wilfully dishonest or bankrupt he'd be thrown out, just as if he'd committed a serious moral opprobrium like adultery or theft - which last, in their view, he had. Which is completely alien to the US business ethos and the average UK dodgy double glazing sequentially bankrupt* as much complained about on here.
Very interesting folk, the Society of Friends, once they'd settled dowm from their charismatic beginnings.
Though there was a big problem with the arms trade in the C18 and early C19 once they sat down and tdhought about it. Just been reading an interesting book on this issue and the Birmingham Quakers.
*Other d.g. businesses are, I stress, available.
Sir Richard Body came, unusually, from a family of Quaker gunmakers. Many nonconformists considered that fighting, very strictly, in self-defence was legitimate, but not chasing an aggressor into their own territory, if you had driven them away.
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
The whole saga of Alaa Abd El-Fattah shows why Reform are the deserved favourites to win the next election. Both main parties have long been more concerned with projecting the right vibes about "British values" than engaging with reality.
The reality is that, by law, he was entitled to British citizenship. Once he had it it was the duty of the foreign office to advocate for his release.
The only misstep here was the government trumpeting his release
That's not true. It would only have been automatic if it had been his father rather than his mother who was born in the UK. Otherwise you have to apply and it's a legal requirement to attend a ceremony and swear allegience to the monarch and pledge loyalty to the UK.
Yes you have to apply/fill out paperwork but there is no discretion if the criteria are met
I know someone personally who met all the criteria and then had their application refused for not attending the citizenship ceremony, so in practice there was discretion given that he was in an Egyptian prison at the time.
How very convenient you know someone personally who exactly mirrors the case in discussion and gives the result that you want. Link?
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Amazing that this no mark still doesn’t realise that the biggest part of this scandal is not the actions of Starmer’s government to secure this person’s release, but the granting of citizenship by the Tory party to an extremist with such tenuous links to the Uk.
As I understand it they had no choice as his Mother was born in this country
However, how his tweets in 2010-11 remained under the radar is a question that needs to be addressed
There is an extensive list of politicians who demanded his release last year which does beg the question why ?
'The incoming Archbishop of Canterbury has been urged to scrap plans to spend £100m over the Church of England's historical links to slavery.
In a letter seen by the Sunday Times, external, a group of Conservative MPs and peers has urged Dame Sarah Mullally to stop the Church from spending the money.
They claim the funds can only legally be spent on churches and the payment of clergy wages.
In a statement to the paper, the Church Commissioners said that arrangements for the fund were being "developed transparently - in line with charity law".
Mullally, who currently serves as the Bishop of London, will take up her new role as the first-ever female Archbishop of Canterbury next month.
The Church of England's slavery links proposal was announced in January 2023, external following the publication of a report into the Church's historical links to transatlantic slavery.
The report, external, requested by the Church's financing arm - the Church Commissioners - found that a fund established by Queen Anne in 1704 to help poor Anglican clergy was used to finance "great evil".
According to the report, the fund, known as Queen Anne's Bounty, invested in African chattel enslavement and took donations derived from it.
After the report's publication, the then-Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, said he was "deeply sorry" for the links and said action would be taken to address the Church's "shameful past".
The Church Commissioners announced a new £100m fund, committed over a nine-year period, to be spent on "a programme of investment, research and engagement" in communities damaged by the enslavement of African people during the transatlantic slave trade.
However, in their letter to Mullally, MPs and peers have urged the Church to focus on "strengthening parishes" rather than on pursuing what they describe as "high-profile and legally dubious vanity projects".' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2e7w03067o
There are a couple of things going on here. I'm not at all sure there is a viable legal case - there will be various precedents in a period since 1704, but I doubt they will try it.
There's obviously populist right politics, with a seach for attention - this is people like Lam, Philp and Lord Biggar (Regent College Vancouver, and Latimer House, Cambridge, amongst others).
But politically it will be interesting, and for pressure they will leverage Parliamentary on normally non-contentious Church of England legislation in the Ecclesiastical Committee, and gum up the works.
That was a game Danny Kruger was playing last autumn.
Indeed, this is populism.
While sympathetic though to the MPs and peers pushing more funds for Parishes, if any income from the 1704 bounty can be directly linked to investments in slave trading companies I can see why the C of E commissioners are doing what they are proposing. That income, only that income mind, should be used to fund projects in Africa and the Caribbean and maybe support churches with large Black British congregations England.
I know a few aristocratic families maybe even the King are also looking at their assets to see if they can make reparations for any income from slavery. Older companies like Barclays and Greene King and Lloyds of London and RBS (now Natwest) are also potentially affected. Greene King is looking into reparations and Lloyds of London invests in BAME projects as a result, as did RBS. Oxbridge colleges and some of the oldest public schools too could be implicated, some colleges increasing scholarships for black students from the Caribbean and Africa https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/18/barclays-hsbc-and-lloyds-among-uk-banks-that-had-links-to-slavery
IMHO, if money is being used for good purposes, 2-300 years down the line, it has lost its taint. More than a few people who have created fortunes did so by unethical means.
I'm intrigued. Who do you have in mind that made their fortunes by ethical means?
A minority really, mostly nonconformists.
The Rowntrees and Cadburys might be your best bets.
Two families who come over as virtual saints, by comparison to many contemporaries.
And, while it is counter-intuitive, acting fairly and honestly, towards others, served them well, financially.
Apparently Quakers succeeded in business because for them a handshake was enough to seal a deal, and they didn't get bogged down in over-legalistic interpretation of contracts.
Also, they weren't allowed into the universities, armed forces, C of E, and law because they'd have to sign up to the C of E, etc. etc. So they focussed laserlike on business.
Also, their family networks - distributed but highly functional when combinedf with their hierarchy of Meetings (=congregations/presbyteries) and regular local, district and national get togethers.
Finally they were so worried about business cred that if one of them was going bust the others would intervene and at least make sure the debts were paid afap. Or if someone was wilfully dishonest or bankrupt he'd be thrown out, just as if he'd committed a serious moral opprobrium like adultery or theft - which last, in their view, he had. Which is completely alien to the US business ethos and the average UK dodgy double glazing sequentially bankrupt* as much complained about on here.
Very interesting folk, the Society of Friends, once they'd settled dowm from their charismatic beginnings.
Though there was a big problem with the arms trade in the C18 and early C19 once they sat down and tdhought about it. Just been reading an interesting book on this issue and the Birmingham Quakers.
*Other d.g. businesses are, I stress, available.
Sir Richard Body came, unusually, from a family of Quaker gunmakers.
Another MP admits they’re not too diligent at checking stuff out.
Still, I’m sure he’s still a victim of racism to people on PB
‘ Those of us who campaigned for Alaa Abd El-Fattah’s protection and release as a British citizen plainly were not aware of his grotesque tweets, and at no point had anyone raised them with me until yesterday. I trusted the process to give Alaa citizenship, and then supported the campaign for his release. I feel deeply let down, and frankly betrayed, having lent my support to his cause which I now regret.
It is wholly improper for British citizens to be detained without due process by foreign states; however Alaa must unequivocally apologise and make clear he now wholly rejects the hatred and anti-semitism he expressed which is so wholly incompatible with British values.
I will continue to raise awareness of the plight of British citizens arbitrarily detained abroad and work to get them home, be it Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong, Jatgar Singh Johal in India, or Craig and Lindsay Foreman detained in Iran.’
Amazing that this no mark still doesn’t realise that the biggest part of this scandal is not the actions of Starmer’s government to secure this person’s release, but the granting of citizenship by the Tory party to an extremist with such tenuous links to the Uk.
As I understand it they had no choice as his Mother was born in this country
However, how his tweets in 2010-11 remained under the radar is a question that needs to be addressed
There is an extensive list of politicians who demanded his release last year which does beg the question why ?
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
He would have more appeal to tactical Labour and LD voters than Kemi or Jenrick though. Kemi also needs to start winning back voters lost to Reform more than she has to if she is to avoid a VONC after the devolved and local elections next May. Certainly unless the Tories at least beat Labour in the NEV next May she will likely face a VONC from Tory MPs.
Why on earth would the conservative party want another leader at a time when Badenoch is gaining in the pollls no matter May 26
There is 3 years plus to the next GE, and frankly Jenrick or Cleverly would not move the dial despite your repetituve posting of your views on this
Jenrick would. If it is the Conservative name that you like he is the man to take down Farage. If it is the party of Ted Heath or even Mrs Thatcher you might be disappointed.
Of course the Heath Tories were the party of Enoch Powell and Terry Dicks was a big fan of Thatcher, and who can forget Peter Griffiths and the Smethwick campaign in 1964. Come to think of it scratch paragraph one, Jenrick should dovetail quite nicely into leading the Conservative Party.
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
He would have more appeal to tactical Labour and LD voters than Kemi or Jenrick though. Kemi also needs to start winning back voters lost to Reform more than she has to if she is to avoid a VONC after the devolved and local elections next May. Certainly unless the Tories at least beat Labour in the NEV next May she will likely face a VONC from Tory MPs.
Why on earth would the conservative party want another leader at a time when Badenoch is gaining in the pollls no matter May 26
There is 3 years plus to the next GE, and frankly Jenrick or Cleverly would not move the dial despite your repetituve posting of your views on this
Jenrick would. If it is the Conservative name that you like he is the man to take down Farage. If it is the party of Ted Heath or even Mrs Thatcher you might be disappointed.
Of course the Heath Tories were the party of Enoch Powell and Terry Dicks was a big fan of Thatcher, and who can forget Peter Griffiths and the Smethwick campaign in 1964. Come to think of it scratch paragraph one, Jenrick should dovetail quite nicely into leading the Conservative Party.
P.S. RIP Hugh Morris, Glamorgan's finest.
He might in the short term. He though should be busy soaking up all the lessons that Kemi is fairly successfully learning. She started off quite poorly but very sensibly she's just playing herself in (NB England cricketers). She's now looking the part to some extent.
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
The whole saga of Alaa Abd El-Fattah shows why Reform are the deserved favourites to win the next election. Both main parties have long been more concerned with projecting the right vibes about "British values" than engaging with reality.
The reality is that, by law, he was entitled to British citizenship. Once he had it it was the duty of the foreign office to advocate for his release.
The only misstep here was the government trumpeting his release
That's not true. It would only have been automatic if it had been his father rather than his mother who was born in the UK. Otherwise you have to apply and it's a legal requirement to attend a ceremony and swear allegience to the monarch and pledge loyalty to the UK.
Yes you have to apply/fill out paperwork but there is no discretion if the criteria are met
I know someone personally who met all the criteria and then had their application refused for not attending the citizenship ceremony, so in practice there was discretion given that he was in an Egyptian prison at the time.
How very convenient you know someone personally who exactly mirrors the case in discussion and gives the result that you want. Link?
I fucking hate Christmas. Honestly, same idiocy every year. Absurd pressure on people to buy presents to give to people who don't want them. What a waste of time.
That's a little unfair, but then I have limited presents to my immediate family only. I don't bother with presents for all of the various cousins, aunts and uncles. It definitely takes the pressure off and collectively we end up with less tat. We also have an unspoken rule to not get plastic shit made in China for each other which really helps avoid unwanted crap.
Various people told don't waste money you don't have buying stuff we don't want. Tokens are fine if you want. I then get grief on providing sufficient guidance on presents. Proper grief. So off they go buying clothes. Practically unwearable and of course they've cut the tags off. What's the point in a clothes industry where kids in Bangladesh have a miserable existence to make crap that people don't want?
And I have a few other examples. Its just performative pressure that isn't worth the bother. All I really need for Christmas is time. Spend some quality time with me, not working, having fun. I don't need you to stress buying me crap - especially when short of cash. And not just me. Have seen various gifts bought for relatives who were around my table. Why? Whose idea was that? Stupid idiot pressure buying commercialist crap.
We have a standard policy of kids getting a proper present and adults getting a hardback book
My extended family declared a present amnesty a couple of Christmases ago when youngest neice turned 18. No presents apart from within each nuclear family, just cards. It works well.
Grandparents are excluded.
I give 10 presents (plus cash for the postie and the porter)
Five grandchildren each get a book with £100 in £10 notes interleaved in the book. It makes sure they open it. My three children each get £2000 into their bank account, My two sons-in-law each get a pair of socks. Simple. No pressure. In return I get books and booze and the occasional socks.
'My two sons-in-law each get a pair of socks.' That rather reminds me of Shakespeare bequeathing his second best bed to his wife.
Are they Christmas socks though?
Because that's the epitome of Bah Humbug. Give somebody something once a year they can only use once a year.
Or the shops can sell, for that matter. What I don't understand is the current fashion for Xmas sweaters, socks, for all I know athletic supporters, from all sorts of organizations, leading to some distinctly startling combinations (no pun intended). For instance, no wonder this lot is being sold off cheap - time of year ...
The truth is all the traditional "centre right" have left is the fact Trump annoys "the lefties" so much so they can troll away on that to their heart's content rather than asking themselves why the opposition to the "centre left" is now coming from the populists like Farage and Trump rather than from traditional conservatives like Badenoch.
I don't think it's controversial to say that the population in most democracies has turned away from centrist politicians, for understandable reasons, and that right-wing populists have been more successful at winning the support of discontented voters than left-wing populists.
Can't blame Righties for consoling themselves with that. I'm sure I'd feel the same if the roles were reversed.
Not in Canada or Australia earlier this year where the centre left won, nor in the French legislative elections where the far left won most seats.
Only in Argentina and Italy and Israel beyond the US have the rightwing populists clearly won in terms of the developed world
... and Chile
Also Turkey, Hungary, Mexico and Brazil.
And the Philippines and India, depending on your definition of 'developed'.
Wasn’t it more the centre right than the populist right who did well in the Filipino election?
I was thinking of Duterte. He may be in prison but his movement is still very powerful.
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
The whole saga of Alaa Abd El-Fattah shows why Reform are the deserved favourites to win the next election. Both main parties have long been more concerned with projecting the right vibes about "British values" than engaging with reality.
The reality is that, by law, he was entitled to British citizenship. Once he had it it was the duty of the foreign office to advocate for his release.
The only misstep here was the government trumpeting his release
That's not true. It would only have been automatic if it had been his father rather than his mother who was born in the UK. Otherwise you have to apply and it's a legal requirement to attend a ceremony and swear allegience to the monarch and pledge loyalty to the UK.
Yes you have to apply/fill out paperwork but there is no discretion if the criteria are met
I know someone personally who met all the criteria and then had their application refused for not attending the citizenship ceremony, so in practice there was discretion given that he was in an Egyptian prison at the time.
How very convenient you know someone personally who exactly mirrors the case in discussion and gives the result that you want. Link?
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
He would have more appeal to tactical Labour and LD voters than Kemi or Jenrick though. Kemi also needs to start winning back voters lost to Reform more than she has to if she is to avoid a VONC after the devolved and local elections next May. Certainly unless the Tories at least beat Labour in the NEV next May she will likely face a VONC from Tory MPs.
Why on earth would the conservative party want another leader at a time when Badenoch is gaining in the pollls no matter May 26
There is 3 years plus to the next GE, and frankly Jenrick or Cleverly would not move the dial despite your repetituve posting of your views on this
Jenrick would. If it is the Conservative name that you like he is the man to take down Farage. If it is the party of Ted Heath or even Mrs Thatcher you might be disappointed.
Of course the Heath Tories were the party of Enoch Powell and Terry Dicks was a big fan of Thatcher, and who can forget Peter Griffiths and the Smethwick campaign in 1964. Come to think of it scratch paragraph one, Jenrick should dovetail quite nicely into leading the Conservative Party.
P.S. RIP Hugh Morris, Glamorgan's finest.
He might in the short term. He though should be busy soaking up all the lessons that Kemi is fairly successfully learning. She started off quite poorly but very sensibly she's just playing herself in (NB England cricketers). She's now looking the part to some extent.
Jenrick would be flash, bang, IDS.
I despise Jenrick, but he steals Farage's clothes for the Tories. Jenrick's comms are brilliant.
Badenoch remains poor. She is up against a poor performer in Starmer who is on the ropes. At PMQs she wins question one and two and by question four she is shouty and floundering. Is that good enough?
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
He would have more appeal to tactical Labour and LD voters than Kemi or Jenrick though. Kemi also needs to start winning back voters lost to Reform more than she has to if she is to avoid a VONC after the devolved and local elections next May. Certainly unless the Tories at least beat Labour in the NEV next May she will likely face a VONC from Tory MPs.
Why on earth would the conservative party want another leader at a time when Badenoch is gaining in the pollls no matter May 26
There is 3 years plus to the next GE, and frankly Jenrick or Cleverly would not move the dial despite your repetituve posting of your views on this
Jenrick would. If it is the Conservative name that you like he is the man to take down Farage. If it is the party of Ted Heath or even Mrs Thatcher you might be disappointed.
Of course the Heath Tories were the party of Enoch Powell and Terry Dicks was a big fan of Thatcher, and who can forget Peter Griffiths and the Smethwick campaign in 1964. Come to think of it scratch paragraph one, Jenrick should dovetail quite nicely into leading the Conservative Party.
P.S. RIP Hugh Morris, Glamorgan's finest.
He might in the short term. He though should be busy soaking up all the lessons that Kemi is fairly successfully learning. She started off quite poorly but very sensibly she's just playing herself in (NB England cricketers). She's now looking the part to some extent.
Jenrick would be flash, bang, IDS.
I despise Jenrick, but he steals Farage's clothes for the Tories. Jenrick's comms are brilliant.
Badenoch remains poor. She is up against a poor performer in Starmer who is on the ropes. At PMQs he wins question one and two and by question four she is shouty and floundering. Is that good enough?
Jenrick doesn't have the numbers at present. Even if Kemi lost a VONC Cleverly would have the MPs who backed him last year, plus Kemi backing Tory MPs who remained loyal to her would likely switch en masse to Cleverly to stop Jenrick too.
So Cleverly might become leader via Howard 2005 or Sunak autumn 2022 coronation or even if it went to members a Conhome members poll after the 2024 Tory conference had Cleverly narrowly ahead of Jenrick even if Badenoch beat both.
Jenick's best bet is for Kemi to go and Cleverly to succeed her but lose the next GE, with Farage also losing the next GE and both resigning as party leaders. Labour would have won, even if only most seats in a hung parliament, due to the split on the right in large part and Jenrick would then be the last option left for the Tories and to reunite the right
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
He would have more appeal to tactical Labour and LD voters than Kemi or Jenrick though. Kemi also needs to start winning back voters lost to Reform more than she has to if she is to avoid a VONC after the devolved and local elections next May. Certainly unless the Tories at least beat Labour in the NEV next May she will likely face a VONC from Tory MPs.
Why on earth would the conservative party want another leader at a time when Badenoch is gaining in the pollls no matter May 26
There is 3 years plus to the next GE, and frankly Jenrick or Cleverly would not move the dial despite your repetituve posting of your views on this
Jenrick would. If it is the Conservative name that you like he is the man to take down Farage. If it is the party of Ted Heath or even Mrs Thatcher you might be disappointed.
Of course the Heath Tories were the party of Enoch Powell and Terry Dicks was a big fan of Thatcher, and who can forget Peter Griffiths and the Smethwick campaign in 1964. Come to think of it scratch paragraph one, Jenrick should dovetail quite nicely into leading the Conservative Party.
P.S. RIP Hugh Morris, Glamorgan's finest.
He might in the short term. He though should be busy soaking up all the lessons that Kemi is fairly successfully learning. She started off quite poorly but very sensibly she's just playing herself in (NB England cricketers). She's now looking the part to some extent.
Jenrick would be flash, bang, IDS.
I despise Jenrick, but he steals Farage's clothes for the Tories. Jenrick's comms are brilliant.
Badenoch remains poor. She is up against a poor performer in Starmer who is on the ropes. At PMQs he wins question one and two and by question four she is shouty and floundering. Is that good enough?
Badenoch as LOTO has a bigger game to play than Jenrick. I agree that he's doing a good job with his small interventions, but its easy to be good if you choose your ground. Farage is an exemplar of that. Jenrick really can improve, and he should (as I said) be busy learning lessons.
With regard to PMQs I think Badenoch is doing quite well. Again its the long game she has to play. Labour and Starmer are unlikely to disappear until 2029 (that'll be a satisfying pop!).
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
He would have more appeal to tactical Labour and LD voters than Kemi or Jenrick though. Kemi also needs to start winning back voters lost to Reform more than she has to if she is to avoid a VONC after the devolved and local elections next May. Certainly unless the Tories at least beat Labour in the NEV next May she will likely face a VONC from Tory MPs.
Why on earth would the conservative party want another leader at a time when Badenoch is gaining in the pollls no matter May 26
There is 3 years plus to the next GE, and frankly Jenrick or Cleverly would not move the dial despite your repetituve posting of your views on this
Jenrick would. If it is the Conservative name that you like he is the man to take down Farage. If it is the party of Ted Heath or even Mrs Thatcher you might be disappointed.
Of course the Heath Tories were the party of Enoch Powell and Terry Dicks was a big fan of Thatcher, and who can forget Peter Griffiths and the Smethwick campaign in 1964. Come to think of it scratch paragraph one, Jenrick should dovetail quite nicely into leading the Conservative Party.
P.S. RIP Hugh Morris, Glamorgan's finest.
He might in the short term. He though should be busy soaking up all the lessons that Kemi is fairly successfully learning. She started off quite poorly but very sensibly she's just playing herself in (NB England cricketers). She's now looking the part to some extent.
Jenrick would be flash, bang, IDS.
I despise Jenrick, but he steals Farage's clothes for the Tories. Jenrick's comms are brilliant.
Badenoch remains poor. She is up against a poor performer in Starmer who is on the ropes. At PMQs he wins question one and two and by question four she is shouty and floundering. Is that good enough?
Jenrick doesn't have the numbers at present. Even if Kemi lost a VONC Cleverly would have the MPs who backed him last year, plus Kemi backing Tory MPs who remained loyal to her would likely switch en masse to Cleverly to stop Jenrick too.
So Cleverly might become leader via Howard 2005 or Sunak autumn 2022 coronation or even if it went to members a Conhome members poll after the 2024 Tory conference had Cleverly narrowly ahead of Jenrick even if Badenoch beat both.
Jenick's best bet is for Kemi to go and Cleverly to succeed her but lose the next GE, with Farage also losing the next GE and both resigning as party leaders. Labour would have won, even if only most seats in a hung parliament, due to the split on the right in large part and Jenrick would then be the last option left for the Tories and to reunite the right
Cleverly may win with the MPs, but the top two MPs go to the membership. How do they stop Jenrick getting into the top two? Cleverly couldn’t count last time.
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
He would have more appeal to tactical Labour and LD voters than Kemi or Jenrick though. Kemi also needs to start winning back voters lost to Reform more than she has to if she is to avoid a VONC after the devolved and local elections next May. Certainly unless the Tories at least beat Labour in the NEV next May she will likely face a VONC from Tory MPs.
Why on earth would the conservative party want another leader at a time when Badenoch is gaining in the pollls no matter May 26
There is 3 years plus to the next GE, and frankly Jenrick or Cleverly would not move the dial despite your repetituve posting of your views on this
Jenrick would. If it is the Conservative name that you like he is the man to take down Farage. If it is the party of Ted Heath or even Mrs Thatcher you might be disappointed.
Of course the Heath Tories were the party of Enoch Powell and Terry Dicks was a big fan of Thatcher, and who can forget Peter Griffiths and the Smethwick campaign in 1964. Come to think of it scratch paragraph one, Jenrick should dovetail quite nicely into leading the Conservative Party.
P.S. RIP Hugh Morris, Glamorgan's finest.
He might in the short term. He though should be busy soaking up all the lessons that Kemi is fairly successfully learning. She started off quite poorly but very sensibly she's just playing herself in (NB England cricketers). She's now looking the part to some extent.
Jenrick would be flash, bang, IDS.
I despise Jenrick, but he steals Farage's clothes for the Tories. Jenrick's comms are brilliant.
Badenoch remains poor. She is up against a poor performer in Starmer who is on the ropes. At PMQs he wins question one and two and by question four she is shouty and floundering. Is that good enough?
Badenoch as LOTO has a bigger game to play than Jenrick. I agree that he's doing a good job with his small interventions, but its easy to be good if you choose your ground. Farage is an exemplar of that. Jenrick really can improve, and he should (as I said) be busy learning lessons.
With regard to PMQs I think Badenoch is doing quite well. Again its the long game she has to play. Labour and Starmer are unlikely to disappear until 2029 (that'll be a satisfying pop!).
Badenoch has been MIA in the last two days as this latest scandal has unfolded. Count me unimpressed, even as someone that has time for her.
“I have reported Alaa Abd el-Fattah to counter-terrorism police.”
15 year old tweets are fair game, yet we can't ask Farage about what he said at school.
Evidence vs hearsay, no?
The testimony against schoolboy Farage is not hearsay. It is direct evidence (whether true or false) of the alleged bad actions. (BTW I think it has the ring of truth, is supported by his series of non denial denials and is damning as to character.)
Hearsay is evidence from X which testifies as to the evidence from Y, about the deeds of Z.
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
He would have more appeal to tactical Labour and LD voters than Kemi or Jenrick though. Kemi also needs to start winning back voters lost to Reform more than she has to if she is to avoid a VONC after the devolved and local elections next May. Certainly unless the Tories at least beat Labour in the NEV next May she will likely face a VONC from Tory MPs.
Why on earth would the conservative party want another leader at a time when Badenoch is gaining in the pollls no matter May 26
There is 3 years plus to the next GE, and frankly Jenrick or Cleverly would not move the dial despite your repetituve posting of your views on this
Jenrick would. If it is the Conservative name that you like he is the man to take down Farage. If it is the party of Ted Heath or even Mrs Thatcher you might be disappointed.
Of course the Heath Tories were the party of Enoch Powell and Terry Dicks was a big fan of Thatcher, and who can forget Peter Griffiths and the Smethwick campaign in 1964. Come to think of it scratch paragraph one, Jenrick should dovetail quite nicely into leading the Conservative Party.
P.S. RIP Hugh Morris, Glamorgan's finest.
He might in the short term. He though should be busy soaking up all the lessons that Kemi is fairly successfully learning. She started off quite poorly but very sensibly she's just playing herself in (NB England cricketers). She's now looking the part to some extent.
Jenrick would be flash, bang, IDS.
I despise Jenrick, but he steals Farage's clothes for the Tories. Jenrick's comms are brilliant.
Badenoch remains poor. She is up against a poor performer in Starmer who is on the ropes. At PMQs he wins question one and two and by question four she is shouty and floundering. Is that good enough?
Badenoch as LOTO has a bigger game to play than Jenrick. I agree that he's doing a good job with his small interventions, but its easy to be good if you choose your ground. Farage is an exemplar of that. Jenrick really can improve, and he should (as I said) be busy learning lessons.
With regard to PMQs I think Badenoch is doing quite well. Again its the long game she has to play. Labour and Starmer are unlikely to disappear until 2029 (that'll be a satisfying pop!).
Badenoch has been MIA in the last two days as this latest scandal has unfolded. Count me unimpressed, even as someone that has time for her.
And what could she usefully say? The rabid news cycle needs aren't what should shape her comments.
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
He would have more appeal to tactical Labour and LD voters than Kemi or Jenrick though. Kemi also needs to start winning back voters lost to Reform more than she has to if she is to avoid a VONC after the devolved and local elections next May. Certainly unless the Tories at least beat Labour in the NEV next May she will likely face a VONC from Tory MPs as they would decide Cleverly would get more tactical votes to beat Reform than she would or Jenrick would make more inroads with Reform voters than she would (though the latter is less likely than the former)
I respect your insight into the party a lot and you have previously been on the money about Johnson. This time I think you're wrong, Cleverly benefits from name recognition and nothing more. He has zero personality and people who say they will vote for him (especially from non Tory voters) are simply projecting their hopes onto a blank slate just as people did with Kier Starmer who has become the least favoured PM in living memory.
If the MPs call a VONC in Kemi after May 26 then the party deserves to die.
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
He would have more appeal to tactical Labour and LD voters than Kemi or Jenrick though. Kemi also needs to start winning back voters lost to Reform more than she has to if she is to avoid a VONC after the devolved and local elections next May. Certainly unless the Tories at least beat Labour in the NEV next May she will likely face a VONC from Tory MPs.
Why on earth would the conservative party want another leader at a time when Badenoch is gaining in the pollls no matter May 26
There is 3 years plus to the next GE, and frankly Jenrick or Cleverly would not move the dial despite your repetituve posting of your views on this
Jenrick would. If it is the Conservative name that you like he is the man to take down Farage. If it is the party of Ted Heath or even Mrs Thatcher you might be disappointed.
Of course the Heath Tories were the party of Enoch Powell and Terry Dicks was a big fan of Thatcher, and who can forget Peter Griffiths and the Smethwick campaign in 1964. Come to think of it scratch paragraph one, Jenrick should dovetail quite nicely into leading the Conservative Party.
P.S. RIP Hugh Morris, Glamorgan's finest.
He might in the short term. He though should be busy soaking up all the lessons that Kemi is fairly successfully learning. She started off quite poorly but very sensibly she's just playing herself in (NB England cricketers). She's now looking the part to some extent.
Jenrick would be flash, bang, IDS.
I despise Jenrick, but he steals Farage's clothes for the Tories. Jenrick's comms are brilliant.
Badenoch remains poor. She is up against a poor performer in Starmer who is on the ropes. At PMQs he wins question one and two and by question four she is shouty and floundering. Is that good enough?
Jenrick doesn't have the numbers at present. Even if Kemi lost a VONC Cleverly would have the MPs who backed him last year, plus Kemi backing Tory MPs who remained loyal to her would likely switch en masse to Cleverly to stop Jenrick too.
So Cleverly might become leader via Howard 2005 or Sunak autumn 2022 coronation or even if it went to members a Conhome members poll after the 2024 Tory conference had Cleverly narrowly ahead of Jenrick even if Badenoch beat both.
Jenick's best bet is for Kemi to go and Cleverly to succeed her but lose the next GE, with Farage also losing the next GE and both resigning as party leaders. Labour would have won, even if only most seats in a hung parliament, due to the split on the right in large part and Jenrick would then be the last option left for the Tories and to reunite the right
Cleverly may win with the MPs, but the top two MPs go to the membership. How do they stop Jenrick getting into the top two? Cleverly couldn’t count last time.
Not necessarily, the 1922 cttee elected Howard unopposed in 2003 and allowed Sunak to be elected with 55% of Tory MPs nominating him in October 2022 without having to face second placed Johnson in a membership ballot (where Boris would likely still have beaten him).
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
He would have more appeal to tactical Labour and LD voters than Kemi or Jenrick though. Kemi also needs to start winning back voters lost to Reform more than she has to if she is to avoid a VONC after the devolved and local elections next May. Certainly unless the Tories at least beat Labour in the NEV next May she will likely face a VONC from Tory MPs.
Why on earth would the conservative party want another leader at a time when Badenoch is gaining in the pollls no matter May 26
There is 3 years plus to the next GE, and frankly Jenrick or Cleverly would not move the dial despite your repetituve posting of your views on this
Jenrick would. If it is the Conservative name that you like he is the man to take down Farage. If it is the party of Ted Heath or even Mrs Thatcher you might be disappointed.
Of course the Heath Tories were the party of Enoch Powell and Terry Dicks was a big fan of Thatcher, and who can forget Peter Griffiths and the Smethwick campaign in 1964. Come to think of it scratch paragraph one, Jenrick should dovetail quite nicely into leading the Conservative Party.
P.S. RIP Hugh Morris, Glamorgan's finest.
He might in the short term. He though should be busy soaking up all the lessons that Kemi is fairly successfully learning. She started off quite poorly but very sensibly she's just playing herself in (NB England cricketers). She's now looking the part to some extent.
Jenrick would be flash, bang, IDS.
I despise Jenrick, but he steals Farage's clothes for the Tories. Jenrick's comms are brilliant.
Badenoch remains poor. She is up against a poor performer in Starmer who is on the ropes. At PMQs he wins question one and two and by question four she is shouty and floundering. Is that good enough?
Badenoch as LOTO has a bigger game to play than Jenrick. I agree that he's doing a good job with his small interventions, but its easy to be good if you choose your ground. Farage is an exemplar of that. Jenrick really can improve, and he should (as I said) be busy learning lessons.
With regard to PMQs I think Badenoch is doing quite well. Again its the long game she has to play. Labour and Starmer are unlikely to disappear until 2029 (that'll be a satisfying pop!).
Badenoch has been MIA in the last two days as this latest scandal has unfolded. Count me unimpressed, even as someone that has time for her.
And what could she usefully say? The rabid news cycle needs aren't what should shape her comments.
Lots and lots.
That when she becomes PM, she will deport him. That she demands a full investigation into how this f up happened, regardless of which political party and officials it taints. That she’s turned a page on the wet liberalism of Tory yesteryear and promises that from now on, British diplomacy will only be used in the interests of British people, rather than extremists who have bent the system to their advantage in a way she will not tolerate.
That she’s keeping quiet on this only serves to remind me that I have no business voting for her party again, because it is still infected with anti British wet liberalism.
“I have reported Alaa Abd el-Fattah to counter-terrorism police.”
15 year old tweets are fair game, yet we can't ask Farage about what he said at school.
15 year old tweets are fair game and Farage has been regularly asked about what he said at school. So, yes we can. Both men look deeply unconvincing characters.
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
He would have more appeal to tactical Labour and LD voters than Kemi or Jenrick though. Kemi also needs to start winning back voters lost to Reform more than she has to if she is to avoid a VONC after the devolved and local elections next May. Certainly unless the Tories at least beat Labour in the NEV next May she will likely face a VONC from Tory MPs.
Why on earth would the conservative party want another leader at a time when Badenoch is gaining in the pollls no matter May 26
There is 3 years plus to the next GE, and frankly Jenrick or Cleverly would not move the dial despite your repetituve posting of your views on this
Jenrick would. If it is the Conservative name that you like he is the man to take down Farage. If it is the party of Ted Heath or even Mrs Thatcher you might be disappointed.
Of course the Heath Tories were the party of Enoch Powell and Terry Dicks was a big fan of Thatcher, and who can forget Peter Griffiths and the Smethwick campaign in 1964. Come to think of it scratch paragraph one, Jenrick should dovetail quite nicely into leading the Conservative Party.
P.S. RIP Hugh Morris, Glamorgan's finest.
He might in the short term. He though should be busy soaking up all the lessons that Kemi is fairly successfully learning. She started off quite poorly but very sensibly she's just playing herself in (NB England cricketers). She's now looking the part to some extent.
Jenrick would be flash, bang, IDS.
I despise Jenrick, but he steals Farage's clothes for the Tories. Jenrick's comms are brilliant.
Badenoch remains poor. She is up against a poor performer in Starmer who is on the ropes. At PMQs he wins question one and two and by question four she is shouty and floundering. Is that good enough?
Badenoch as LOTO has a bigger game to play than Jenrick. I agree that he's doing a good job with his small interventions, but its easy to be good if you choose your ground. Farage is an exemplar of that. Jenrick really can improve, and he should (as I said) be busy learning lessons.
With regard to PMQs I think Badenoch is doing quite well. Again its the long game she has to play. Labour and Starmer are unlikely to disappear until 2029 (that'll be a satisfying pop!).
Badenoch has been MIA in the last two days as this latest scandal has unfolded. Count me unimpressed, even as someone that has time for her.
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
He would have more appeal to tactical Labour and LD voters than Kemi or Jenrick though. Kemi also needs to start winning back voters lost to Reform more than she has to if she is to avoid a VONC after the devolved and local elections next May. Certainly unless the Tories at least beat Labour in the NEV next May she will likely face a VONC from Tory MPs as they would decide Cleverly would get more tactical votes to beat Reform than she would or Jenrick would make more inroads with Reform voters than she would (though the latter is less likely than the former)
I respect your insight into the party a lot and you have previously been on the money about Johnson. This time I think you're wrong, Cleverly benefits from name recognition and nothing more. He has zero personality and people who say they will vote for him (especially from non Tory voters) are simply projecting their hopes onto a blank slate just as people did with Kier Starmer who has become the least favoured PM in living memory.
If the MPs call a VONC in Kemi after May 26 then the party deserves to die.
Yes but if Jenrick replaced Kemi, then the Tories are effectively Reform 2 anyway and it is optimistic to expect Jenrick to overtake Farage as leader of the right. In my view Jenrick is Pepsi to Farage's Coca Cola and voters will always prefer the real thing if they like full fat rightwing populism than ex Remainer Jenrick.
As I said, if Farage loses the next GE and resigns then Jenrick has his chance to reunite the right if the Tories have also lost under Kemi or Cleverly but not before.
If the Tories are 3rd in May then Tory MPs would feel the party is heading for death anyway without a VONC. Kemi needs a first or second place in NEV for the Tories in the local and devolved elections and polls consistently over 20%+ to survive beyond the spring
Three predictions for the state of play as of 31st December 2026.
1) Reform will not be consistently leading in the polls 2) Badenoch will lead the Tories 3) Starmer will lead Labour.
DYOR.
Tend to agree, although you have to get past May: hard to see the locals being good enough for both Badenoch and Starmer to survive the pressure of terrible results by year end.
Three predictions for the state of play as of 31st December 2026.
1) Reform will not be consistently leading in the polls 2) Badenoch will lead the Tories 3) Starmer will lead Labour.
DYOR.
Tend to agree, although you have to get past May: hard to see the locals being good enough for both Badenoch and Starmer to survive the pressure of terrible results by year end.
Starmer at least has elections mainly in Labour leaning big cities and London and a likely small swing from the SNP in Scotland since 2021 to shore him up even if Wales sees Labour third.
Badenoch risks 4th place in Scotland and Wales on current polls and 3rd place in England and even if the Tories gain Barnet and Westminster that would not save her
“I have reported Alaa Abd el-Fattah to counter-terrorism police.”
15 year old tweets are fair game, yet we can't ask Farage about what he said at school.
15 year old tweets are fair game and Farage has been regularly asked about what he said at school. So, yes we can. Both men look deeply unconvincing characters.
excellent, i foresee no upcoming problems for Reform candidate selection
Three predictions for the state of play as of 31st December 2026.
1) Reform will not be consistently leading in the polls 2) Badenoch will lead the Tories 3) Starmer will lead Labour.
DYOR.
Tend to agree, although you have to get past May: hard to see the locals being good enough for both Badenoch and Starmer to survive the pressure of terrible results by year end.
Starmer at least has elections mainly in Labour leaning big cities and London and a likely small swing from the SNP in Scotland since 2021 to shore him up even if Wales sees Labour third.
Badenoch risks 4th place in Scotland and Wales on current polls and 3rd place in England and even if the Tories gain Barnet and Westminster that would not save her
If she is still moving forward by May, Badenoch should be OK for another year. Something like 24% by then (with Reform under 30%), and the spotlight will be on Starmer.
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
He would have more appeal to tactical Labour and LD voters than Kemi or Jenrick though. Kemi also needs to start winning back voters lost to Reform more than she has to if she is to avoid a VONC after the devolved and local elections next May. Certainly unless the Tories at least beat Labour in the NEV next May she will likely face a VONC from Tory MPs as they would decide Cleverly would get more tactical votes to beat Reform than she would or Jenrick would make more inroads with Reform voters than she would (though the latter is less likely than the former)
I respect your insight into the party a lot and you have previously been on the money about Johnson. This time I think you're wrong, Cleverly benefits from name recognition and nothing more. He has zero personality and people who say they will vote for him (especially from non Tory voters) are simply projecting their hopes onto a blank slate just as people did with Kier Starmer who has become the least favoured PM in living memory.
If the MPs call a VONC in Kemi after May 26 then the party deserves to die.
Yes but if Jenrick replaced Kemi, then the Tories are effectively Reform 2 anyway and it is optimistic to expect Jenrick to overtake Farage as leader of the right. In my view Jenrick is Pepsi to Farage's Coca Cola and voters will always prefer the real thing if they like full fat rightwing populism than ex Remainer Jenrick.
As I said, if Farage loses the next GE and resigns then Jenrick has his chance to reunite the right if the Tories have also lost under Kemi or Cleverly but not before.
If the Tories are 3rd in May then Tory MPs would feel the party is heading for death anyway without a VONC. Kemi needs a first or second place in NEV for the Tories in the local and devolved elections and polls consistently over 20%+ to survive beyond the spring
Cleverly actually linked to Alaa Abd el-Fattah's twitter account when expressing his support. He'd be a disastrous choice as leader.
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
He would have more appeal to tactical Labour and LD voters than Kemi or Jenrick though. Kemi also needs to start winning back voters lost to Reform more than she has to if she is to avoid a VONC after the devolved and local elections next May. Certainly unless the Tories at least beat Labour in the NEV next May she will likely face a VONC from Tory MPs.
Why on earth would the conservative party want another leader at a time when Badenoch is gaining in the pollls no matter May 26
There is 3 years plus to the next GE, and frankly Jenrick or Cleverly would not move the dial despite your repetituve posting of your views on this
Jenrick would. If it is the Conservative name that you like he is the man to take down Farage. If it is the party of Ted Heath or even Mrs Thatcher you might be disappointed.
Of course the Heath Tories were the party of Enoch Powell and Terry Dicks was a big fan of Thatcher, and who can forget Peter Griffiths and the Smethwick campaign in 1964. Come to think of it scratch paragraph one, Jenrick should dovetail quite nicely into leading the Conservative Party.
P.S. RIP Hugh Morris, Glamorgan's finest.
He might in the short term. He though should be busy soaking up all the lessons that Kemi is fairly successfully learning. She started off quite poorly but very sensibly she's just playing herself in (NB England cricketers). She's now looking the part to some extent.
Jenrick would be flash, bang, IDS.
I despise Jenrick, but he steals Farage's clothes for the Tories. Jenrick's comms are brilliant.
Badenoch remains poor. She is up against a poor performer in Starmer who is on the ropes. At PMQs he wins question one and two and by question four she is shouty and floundering. Is that good enough?
Jenrick doesn't have the numbers at present. Even if Kemi lost a VONC Cleverly would have the MPs who backed him last year, plus Kemi backing Tory MPs who remained loyal to her would likely switch en masse to Cleverly to stop Jenrick too.
So Cleverly might become leader via Howard 2005 or Sunak autumn 2022 coronation or even if it went to members a Conhome members poll after the 2024 Tory conference had Cleverly narrowly ahead of Jenrick even if Badenoch beat both.
Jenick's best bet is for Kemi to go and Cleverly to succeed her but lose the next GE, with Farage also losing the next GE and both resigning as party leaders. Labour would have won, even if only most seats in a hung parliament, due to the split on the right in large part and Jenrick would then be the last option left for the Tories and to reunite the right
Cleverly may win with the MPs, but the top two MPs go to the membership. How do they stop Jenrick getting into the top two? Cleverly couldn’t count last time.
Not necessarily, the 1922 cttee elected Howard unopposed in 2003 and allowed Sunak to be elected with 55% of Tory MPs nominating him in October 2022 without having to face second placed Johnson in a membership ballot (where Boris would likely still have beaten him).
They didn't "allow" Sunak to be elected. Mordaunt didn't get enough nominations and Johnson dropped out. Would Jenrick fail to get enough noms and/or drop out?
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
He would have more appeal to tactical Labour and LD voters than Kemi or Jenrick though. Kemi also needs to start winning back voters lost to Reform more than she has to if she is to avoid a VONC after the devolved and local elections next May. Certainly unless the Tories at least beat Labour in the NEV next May she will likely face a VONC from Tory MPs.
Why on earth would the conservative party want another leader at a time when Badenoch is gaining in the pollls no matter May 26
There is 3 years plus to the next GE, and frankly Jenrick or Cleverly would not move the dial despite your repetituve posting of your views on this
Jenrick would. If it is the Conservative name that you like he is the man to take down Farage. If it is the party of Ted Heath or even Mrs Thatcher you might be disappointed.
Of course the Heath Tories were the party of Enoch Powell and Terry Dicks was a big fan of Thatcher, and who can forget Peter Griffiths and the Smethwick campaign in 1964. Come to think of it scratch paragraph one, Jenrick should dovetail quite nicely into leading the Conservative Party.
P.S. RIP Hugh Morris, Glamorgan's finest.
He might in the short term. He though should be busy soaking up all the lessons that Kemi is fairly successfully learning. She started off quite poorly but very sensibly she's just playing herself in (NB England cricketers). She's now looking the part to some extent.
Jenrick would be flash, bang, IDS.
I despise Jenrick, but he steals Farage's clothes for the Tories. Jenrick's comms are brilliant.
Badenoch remains poor. She is up against a poor performer in Starmer who is on the ropes. At PMQs he wins question one and two and by question four she is shouty and floundering. Is that good enough?
Badenoch as LOTO has a bigger game to play than Jenrick. I agree that he's doing a good job with his small interventions, but its easy to be good if you choose your ground. Farage is an exemplar of that. Jenrick really can improve, and he should (as I said) be busy learning lessons.
With regard to PMQs I think Badenoch is doing quite well. Again its the long game she has to play. Labour and Starmer are unlikely to disappear until 2029 (that'll be a satisfying pop!).
Badenoch has been MIA in the last two days as this latest scandal has unfolded. Count me unimpressed, even as someone that has time for her.
And what could she usefully say? The rabid news cycle needs aren't what should shape her comments.
Lots and lots.
That when she becomes PM, she will deport him. That she demands a full investigation into how this f up happened, regardless of which political party and officials it taints. That she’s turned a page on the wet liberalism of Tory yesteryear and promises that from now on, British diplomacy will only be used in the interests of British people, rather than extremists who have bent the system to their advantage in a way she will not tolerate.
That she’s keeping quiet on this only serves to remind me that I have no business voting for her party again, because it is still infected with anti British wet liberalism.
Fatal crash risk ‘three times higher’ in hybrid cars than petrol
Experts believe the higher death rates could be explained by hybrid cars’ combination of petrol engines and electric motors, which can be more prone to fires
“I have reported Alaa Abd el-Fattah to counter-terrorism police.”
15 year old tweets are fair game, yet we can't ask Farage about what he said at school.
Evidence vs hearsay, no?
The testimony against schoolboy Farage is not hearsay. It is direct evidence (whether true or false) of the alleged bad actions. (BTW I think it has the ring of truth, is supported by his series of non denial denials and is damning as to character.)
Hearsay is evidence from X which testifies as to the evidence from Y, about the deeds of Z.
Yeah, that’s true. We’re comparing people’s claims of what someone said, who may or may not have a reason to claim that, vs direct evidence of what someone actually said.
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
He would have more appeal to tactical Labour and LD voters than Kemi or Jenrick though. Kemi also needs to start winning back voters lost to Reform more than she has to if she is to avoid a VONC after the devolved and local elections next May. Certainly unless the Tories at least beat Labour in the NEV next May she will likely face a VONC from Tory MPs.
Why on earth would the conservative party want another leader at a time when Badenoch is gaining in the pollls no matter May 26
There is 3 years plus to the next GE, and frankly Jenrick or Cleverly would not move the dial despite your repetituve posting of your views on this
Kemi as PM is probably the best chance that multiculturalism in the UK will have of working and, given the demographic trend, it’s important that it does work
Couldn’t disagree more. I want multi racialism to be a roaring success but multiculturalism sent to the dustbin of history.
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
He would have more appeal to tactical Labour and LD voters than Kemi or Jenrick though. Kemi also needs to start winning back voters lost to Reform more than she has to if she is to avoid a VONC after the devolved and local elections next May. Certainly unless the Tories at least beat Labour in the NEV next May she will likely face a VONC from Tory MPs as they would decide Cleverly would get more tactical votes to beat Reform than she would or Jenrick would make more inroads with Reform voters than she would (though the latter is less likely than the former)
I respect your insight into the party a lot and you have previously been on the money about Johnson. This time I think you're wrong, Cleverly benefits from name recognition and nothing more. He has zero personality and people who say they will vote for him (especially from non Tory voters) are simply projecting their hopes onto a blank slate just as people did with Kier Starmer who has become the least favoured PM in living memory.
If the MPs call a VONC in Kemi after May 26 then the party deserves to die.
Yes but if Jenrick replaced Kemi, then the Tories are effectively Reform 2 anyway and it is optimistic to expect Jenrick to overtake Farage as leader of the right. In my view Jenrick is Pepsi to Farage's Coca Cola and voters will always prefer the real thing if they like full fat rightwing populism than ex Remainer Jenrick.
As I said, if Farage loses the next GE and resigns then Jenrick has his chance to reunite the right if the Tories have also lost under Kemi or Cleverly but not before.
If the Tories are 3rd in May then Tory MPs would feel the party is heading for death anyway without a VONC. Kemi needs a first or second place in NEV for the Tories in the local and devolved elections and polls consistently over 20%+ to survive beyond the spring
Cleverly actually linked to Alaa Abd el-Fattah's twitter account when expressing his support. He'd be a disastrous choice as leader.
Cleverly is not the incumbent PM, no one cares what he says. The BBC are painting the picture that Starmer is supporting a terrorist and he has been called out by the Conservatives, particularly Jenrick.
Three predictions for the state of play as of 31st December 2026.
1) Reform will not be consistently leading in the polls 2) Badenoch will lead the Tories 3) Starmer will lead Labour.
DYOR.
Tend to agree, although you have to get past May: hard to see the locals being good enough for both Badenoch and Starmer to survive the pressure of terrible results by year end.
Starmer at least has elections mainly in Labour leaning big cities and London and a likely small swing from the SNP in Scotland since 2021 to shore him up even if Wales sees Labour third.
Badenoch risks 4th place in Scotland and Wales on current polls and 3rd place in England and even if the Tories gain Barnet and Westminster that would not save her
The line up of councils makes next May potentially worse for Starmer than for Badenoch. The headline losses for Labour will be greater than for the Conservatives.
Labour will likely lose Birmingham, Bradford, Sunderland, Barnsley, Wakefield, Calderdale, Kirklees, and a string of London boroughs.
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
He would have more appeal to tactical Labour and LD voters than Kemi or Jenrick though. Kemi also needs to start winning back voters lost to Reform more than she has to if she is to avoid a VONC after the devolved and local elections next May. Certainly unless the Tories at least beat Labour in the NEV next May she will likely face a VONC from Tory MPs.
Why on earth would the conservative party want another leader at a time when Badenoch is gaining in the pollls no matter May 26
There is 3 years plus to the next GE, and frankly Jenrick or Cleverly would not move the dial despite your repetituve posting of your views on this
Jenrick would. If it is the Conservative name that you like he is the man to take down Farage. If it is the party of Ted Heath or even Mrs Thatcher you might be disappointed.
Of course the Heath Tories were the party of Enoch Powell and Terry Dicks was a big fan of Thatcher, and who can forget Peter Griffiths and the Smethwick campaign in 1964. Come to think of it scratch paragraph one, Jenrick should dovetail quite nicely into leading the Conservative Party.
P.S. RIP Hugh Morris, Glamorgan's finest.
He might in the short term. He though should be busy soaking up all the lessons that Kemi is fairly successfully learning. She started off quite poorly but very sensibly she's just playing herself in (NB England cricketers). She's now looking the part to some extent.
Jenrick would be flash, bang, IDS.
I despise Jenrick, but he steals Farage's clothes for the Tories. Jenrick's comms are brilliant.
Badenoch remains poor. She is up against a poor performer in Starmer who is on the ropes. At PMQs he wins question one and two and by question four she is shouty and floundering. Is that good enough?
Jenrick doesn't have the numbers at present. Even if Kemi lost a VONC Cleverly would have the MPs who backed him last year, plus Kemi backing Tory MPs who remained loyal to her would likely switch en masse to Cleverly to stop Jenrick too.
So Cleverly might become leader via Howard 2005 or Sunak autumn 2022 coronation or even if it went to members a Conhome members poll after the 2024 Tory conference had Cleverly narrowly ahead of Jenrick even if Badenoch beat both.
Jenick's best bet is for Kemi to go and Cleverly to succeed her but lose the next GE, with Farage also losing the next GE and both resigning as party leaders. Labour would have won, even if only most seats in a hung parliament, due to the split on the right in large part and Jenrick would then be the last option left for the Tories and to reunite the right
Cleverly may win with the MPs, but the top two MPs go to the membership. How do they stop Jenrick getting into the top two? Cleverly couldn’t count last time.
Not necessarily, the 1922 cttee elected Howard unopposed in 2003 and allowed Sunak to be elected with 55% of Tory MPs nominating him in October 2022 without having to face second placed Johnson in a membership ballot (where Boris would likely still have beaten him).
They didn't "allow" Sunak to be elected. Mordaunt didn't get enough nominations and Johnson dropped out. Would Jenrick fail to get enough noms and/or drop out?
Likewise, no one stood against Howard.
At least 28% of Tory MPs needed to nominate a candidate and only Sunak met that threshold.
As I said, a Tory members poll last year also had Cleverly beating Jenrick anyway
Three predictions for the state of play as of 31st December 2026.
1) Reform will not be consistently leading in the polls 2) Badenoch will lead the Tories 3) Starmer will lead Labour.
DYOR.
Tend to agree, although you have to get past May: hard to see the locals being good enough for both Badenoch and Starmer to survive the pressure of terrible results by year end.
Yes, all of that is right. Current reasoning (+ guesswork of course):
1) Reform have peaked; fewer top figures have joined than I would have expected which I feel is a slow acting problem for them. There is evidence that the Tories have turned an emotional corner and are on their way to be considered again.
2) I am much more confident of Badenoch's survival than Starmer. There is no replacement who would be all three of: better, and available and electable.
3) Starmer's survival depends on two key factors: his limpet and protean qualities which got him to PM in the first place and the intense difficulties of arranging a process and agreeing a succession with Labour's rules, the dimness of the backbenchers and the unrepresentative nature of the membership. The only available better well known candidate is Streeting, and neither the MPs nor the membership think so.
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
He would have more appeal to tactical Labour and LD voters than Kemi or Jenrick though. Kemi also needs to start winning back voters lost to Reform more than she has to if she is to avoid a VONC after the devolved and local elections next May. Certainly unless the Tories at least beat Labour in the NEV next May she will likely face a VONC from Tory MPs as they would decide Cleverly would get more tactical votes to beat Reform than she would or Jenrick would make more inroads with Reform voters than she would (though the latter is less likely than the former)
I respect your insight into the party a lot and you have previously been on the money about Johnson. This time I think you're wrong, Cleverly benefits from name recognition and nothing more. He has zero personality and people who say they will vote for him (especially from non Tory voters) are simply projecting their hopes onto a blank slate just as people did with Kier Starmer who has become the least favoured PM in living memory.
If the MPs call a VONC in Kemi after May 26 then the party deserves to die.
Yes but if Jenrick replaced Kemi, then the Tories are effectively Reform 2 anyway and it is optimistic to expect Jenrick to overtake Farage as leader of the right. In my view Jenrick is Pepsi to Farage's Coca Cola and voters will always prefer the real thing if they like full fat rightwing populism than ex Remainer Jenrick.
As I said, if Farage loses the next GE and resigns then Jenrick has his chance to reunite the right if the Tories have also lost under Kemi or Cleverly but not before.
If the Tories are 3rd in May then Tory MPs would feel the party is heading for death anyway without a VONC. Kemi needs a first or second place in NEV for the Tories in the local and devolved elections and polls consistently over 20%+ to survive beyond the spring
Cleverly actually linked to Alaa Abd el-Fattah's twitter account when expressing his support. He'd be a disastrous choice as leader.
Not for winning Labour and LD and Green tactical votes to beat Reform which the Tories desperately need in the seats they hold unless they can make serious inroads into the Reform vote which Kemi has failed to really do
I think IDS and Cleverly have got away with this one. BBC reporting "Conservatives" are wholly opposed to his return. Jenrick gets a specific name check. Starmer as the incumbent takes 100% of the responsibility for this.
Though I doubt Labour voters will care and Tories need some Labour tactical votes in seats Reform are challenging the Tory incumbent
I don't see Labour voters who want to avoid a right wing Reform Government will be minded to vote for candidates representing a right wing Conservative Party.
Polls are notoriously bad at predicting what people are likely to do in the future. Polling suggested that if Donald Trump were convicted of a felony, many Republicans would refuse to vote for him. As it turned out, they did so overwhelmingly.
I think it unlikely that in practice, many left wing voters would cross over, to support the Conservatives.
I also think that Cleverly is utterly devoid of ideas and charisma, he will basically be black Kier Starmer and in the face of a charismatic and conviction driven politician like Nige he will get smashed to pieces, the Tories would be lucky to finish in double figures IMO. No amount of tactical voting will save him against Nige and like you I do not believe that Labour voters will turn out for a Tory party whoever the leader is unless they have a compelling story and policies. Cleverly absolutely won't have that, he will be another blank sheet of paper running a Ming vase strategy hoping that Labour are unpopular enough for him to inherit enough votes to win. It won't work.
He would have more appeal to tactical Labour and LD voters than Kemi or Jenrick though. Kemi also needs to start winning back voters lost to Reform more than she has to if she is to avoid a VONC after the devolved and local elections next May. Certainly unless the Tories at least beat Labour in the NEV next May she will likely face a VONC from Tory MPs.
Why on earth would the conservative party want another leader at a time when Badenoch is gaining in the pollls no matter May 26
There is 3 years plus to the next GE, and frankly Jenrick or Cleverly would not move the dial despite your repetituve posting of your views on this
Jenrick would. If it is the Conservative name that you like he is the man to take down Farage. If it is the party of Ted Heath or even Mrs Thatcher you might be disappointed.
Of course the Heath Tories were the party of Enoch Powell and Terry Dicks was a big fan of Thatcher, and who can forget Peter Griffiths and the Smethwick campaign in 1964. Come to think of it scratch paragraph one, Jenrick should dovetail quite nicely into leading the Conservative Party.
P.S. RIP Hugh Morris, Glamorgan's finest.
He might in the short term. He though should be busy soaking up all the lessons that Kemi is fairly successfully learning. She started off quite poorly but very sensibly she's just playing herself in (NB England cricketers). She's now looking the part to some extent.
Jenrick would be flash, bang, IDS.
I despise Jenrick, but he steals Farage's clothes for the Tories. Jenrick's comms are brilliant.
Badenoch remains poor. She is up against a poor performer in Starmer who is on the ropes. At PMQs he wins question one and two and by question four she is shouty and floundering. Is that good enough?
Jenrick doesn't have the numbers at present. Even if Kemi lost a VONC Cleverly would have the MPs who backed him last year, plus Kemi backing Tory MPs who remained loyal to her would likely switch en masse to Cleverly to stop Jenrick too.
So Cleverly might become leader via Howard 2005 or Sunak autumn 2022 coronation or even if it went to members a Conhome members poll after the 2024 Tory conference had Cleverly narrowly ahead of Jenrick even if Badenoch beat both.
Jenick's best bet is for Kemi to go and Cleverly to succeed her but lose the next GE, with Farage also losing the next GE and both resigning as party leaders. Labour would have won, even if only most seats in a hung parliament, due to the split on the right in large part and Jenrick would then be the last option left for the Tories and to reunite the right
Cleverly may win with the MPs, but the top two MPs go to the membership. How do they stop Jenrick getting into the top two? Cleverly couldn’t count last time.
Not necessarily, the 1922 cttee elected Howard unopposed in 2003 and allowed Sunak to be elected with 55% of Tory MPs nominating him in October 2022 without having to face second placed Johnson in a membership ballot (where Boris would likely still have beaten him).
They didn't "allow" Sunak to be elected. Mordaunt didn't get enough nominations and Johnson dropped out. Would Jenrick fail to get enough noms and/or drop out?
Likewise, no one stood against Howard.
At least 28% of Tory MPs needed to nominate a candidate and only Sunak met that threshold.
As I said, a Tory members poll last year also had Cleverly beating Jenrick anyway
I hope you're right. Conservatism needs you to be right!
Three predictions for the state of play as of 31st December 2026.
1) Reform will not be consistently leading in the polls 2) Badenoch will lead the Tories 3) Starmer will lead Labour.
DYOR.
Tend to agree, although you have to get past May: hard to see the locals being good enough for both Badenoch and Starmer to survive the pressure of terrible results by year end.
Yes, all of that is right. Current reasoning (+ guesswork of course):
1) Reform have peaked; fewer top figures have joined than I would have expected which I feel is a slow acting problem for them. There is evidence that the Tories have turned an emotional corner and are on their way to be considered again.
2) I am much more confident of Badenoch's survival than Starmer. There is no replacement who would be all three of: better, and available and electable.
3) Starmer's survival depends on two key factors: his limpet and protean qualities which got him to PM in the first place and the intense difficulties of arranging a process and agreeing a succession with Labour's rules, the dimness of the backbenchers and the unrepresentative nature of the membership. The only available better well known candidate is Streeting, and neither the MPs nor the membership think so.
3) is key point, right, which goes against 2). Everything taken together, Badenoch must be more vulnerable.
Comments
An Ipsos poll in the summer had Cleverly the preference of 2024 Conservative voters if Kemi was no longer leader amongst Tory MPs eligible with 14%, followed by Sunak with 12% and Jenrick with 10%. Even if 2024 Reform voters preferred Jenrick and Braverman as their top 2 if you voted Reform in 2024 you certainly aren't going to be leaving them now. It is the 2024 Tory vote Cleverly could solidify
https://conservativehome.com/2025/08/07/the-return-of-boris-tory-voters-are-looking-back-to-the-future/
A BMG poll last summer also had Cleverly ahead of Badenoch and Jenrick amongst all voters
https://bmgresearch.com/news/conservative-leadership-polling-2024/
Would you be in favour of other British citizens losing their British citizenship due to tweets they've made?
It would be interesting to know whether Mitch Daniels or Ben Sasse were able to improve on that, during their time heading universities.
(And Bok's silence on the reasons for his replacement of Larry Summers illustrates, unintentionally, how some subjects are still unacceptable in many modern universities.)
That seems to be an absurdly low bar.
At least with Shamima Begum she was actually in Syria living with ISIS and could be said to have provided them with practical support.
There is 3 years plus to the next GE, and frankly Jenrick or Cleverly would not move the dial despite your repetituve posting of your views on this
Bring her back, prosecute her, if guilty lock her up (in the words of the Trumpdozer)
As I said, even if she doesn't beat Reform in the local and devolved elections next May she at minimum has to beat Labour, otherwise Tory MPs will fear for their seats and the letters will go in to ensure a VONC is held
To your general point, yes of course there should be grounds to deny someone citizenship that is a convicted criminal in their own country, has espoused extremist viewpoints, bragged publicly that they hate Britain and incited racially based violence. Proper countries don’t adopt a box tick approach to something as sacred as citizenship and neither should we.
“I have reported Alaa Abd el-Fattah to counter-terrorism police.”
- grant him citizenship
- We he arrived here, forced him to plead guilt for the tweets. Straight to a U.K. jail.
Then everyone would be happy. Season of Good Cheer and all?
IIRC the FA determined, via lawyers, that being a wanted UN designated war criminal didn’t violate the “fit and proper” rule for owners of FA football clubs.
Anyone found out if he wants to buy a U.K. football club?
Grandparents are excluded.
Five grandchildren each get a book with £100 in £10 notes interleaved in the book. It makes sure they open it.
My three children each get £2000 into their bank account,
My two sons-in-law each get a pair of socks.
Simple. No pressure.
In return I get books and booze and the occasional socks.
It helps that I've never had a car, so all my comings & goings have involved walking, even if only before/after the public transport part.
Well, I'm pleased to hear it, but I'm slightly surprised given the awkward precedent he's set for himself.
"You will not be a British citizen until you have attended the ceremony."
Also, their family networks - distributed but highly functional when combinedf with their hierarchy of Meetings (=congregations/presbyteries) and regular local, district and national get togethers.
Finally they were so worried about business cred that if one of them was going bust the others would intervene and at least make sure the debts were paid afap. Or if someone was wilfully dishonest or bankrupt he'd be thrown out, just as if he'd committed a serious moral opprobrium like adultery or theft - which last, in their view, he had. Which is completely alien to the US business ethos and the average UK dodgy double glazing sequentially bankrupt* as much complained about on here.
Very interesting folk, the Society of Friends, once they'd settled dowm from their charismatic beginnings.
Though there was a big problem with the arms trade in the C18 and early C19 once they sat down and tdhought about it. Just been reading an interesting book on this issue and the Birmingham Quakers.
*Other d.g. businesses are, I stress, available.
Bah, humbug.
We spend less money on Chinese tat. Balance of payments improves, GBP goes down and the environment benefits.
Retail sales are lower, which may come at some cost to employment but the likes of Amazon aren’t very high value jobs anyway (and they don’t pay a huge amount of tax).
Reduction in package deliveries reducing congestion on the streets and environmental benefits.
Overall I think we can afford to cancel Christmas…
Limit everyone to giving one gift, and then they will save it for something worthwhile and meaningful.
Because that's the epitome of Bah Humbug. Give somebody something once a year they can only use once a year.
https://tankmuseumshop.org/collections/clothing-clearance
- I Bantz
- You have lost your job
- He/She has been given six months
Of course the Heath Tories were the party of Enoch Powell and Terry Dicks was a big fan of Thatcher, and who can forget Peter Griffiths and the Smethwick campaign in 1964. Come to think of it scratch paragraph one, Jenrick should dovetail quite nicely into leading the Conservative Party.
P.S. RIP Hugh Morris, Glamorgan's finest.
Jenrick would be flash, bang, IDS.
https://www.ravelry.com/patterns/library/lillehammer-christmas-pullover
Badenoch remains poor. She is up against a poor performer in Starmer who is on the ropes. At PMQs she wins question one and two and by question four she is shouty and floundering. Is that good enough?
So Cleverly might become leader via Howard 2005 or Sunak autumn 2022 coronation or even if it went to members a Conhome members poll after the 2024 Tory conference had Cleverly narrowly ahead of Jenrick even if Badenoch beat both.
Jenick's best bet is for Kemi to go and Cleverly to succeed her but lose the next GE, with Farage also losing the next GE and both resigning as party leaders. Labour would have won, even if only most seats in a hung parliament, due to the split on the right in large part and Jenrick would then be the last option left for the Tories and to reunite the right
With regard to PMQs I think Badenoch is doing quite well. Again its the long game she has to play. Labour and Starmer are unlikely to disappear until 2029 (that'll be a satisfying pop!).
Hearsay is evidence from X which testifies as to the evidence from Y, about the deeds of Z.
1) Reform will not be consistently leading in the polls
2) Badenoch will lead the Tories
3) Starmer will lead Labour.
DYOR.
If the MPs call a VONC in Kemi after May 26 then the party deserves to die.
Even if it went to members as I said Cleverly beat Jenrick 54% to 36% in an October 2024 Conservative members poll, even if Badenoch beat Cleverly 48% to 42%
https://conservativehome.com/2024/10/06/cleverly-overtakes-jenrick-in-our-post-conference-leadership-survey/
That when she becomes PM, she will deport him. That she demands a full investigation into how this f up happened, regardless of which political party and officials it taints. That she’s turned a page on the wet liberalism of Tory yesteryear and promises that from now on, British diplomacy will only be used in the interests of British people, rather than extremists who have bent the system to their advantage in a way she will not tolerate.
That she’s keeping quiet on this only serves to remind me that I have no business voting for her party again, because it is still infected with anti British wet liberalism.
Oh you mean Farage's comments are hearsay. I think it is now eighteen contemporaneous witnesses have corroborated Peter Ettedgui.
As I said, if Farage loses the next GE and resigns then Jenrick has his chance to reunite the right if the Tories have also lost under Kemi or Cleverly but not before.
If the Tories are 3rd in May then Tory MPs would feel the party is heading for death anyway without a VONC. Kemi needs a first or second place in NEV for the Tories in the local and devolved elections and polls consistently over 20%+ to survive beyond the spring
Badenoch risks 4th place in Scotland and Wales on current polls and 3rd place in England and even if the Tories gain Barnet and Westminster that would not save her
https://x.com/JamesCleverly/status/1588114772519796736
Likewise, no one stood against Howard.
Experts believe the higher death rates could be explained by hybrid cars’ combination of petrol engines and electric motors, which can be more prone to fires
https://www.thetimes.com/article/3b70bbfa-f0b8-4e80-a7cb-86c693cea78f?shareToken=6986ec0a25dad08e80b2790d44978a4a
Cleverly isn't in that picture.
https://x.com/komadovsky/status/2005349471425847756
Instead of statements, President Trump made an offer to bring journalists some food. Then, the pool was rushed out of the dining room.
Labour will likely lose Birmingham, Bradford, Sunderland, Barnsley, Wakefield, Calderdale, Kirklees, and a string of London boroughs.
As I said, a Tory members poll last year also had Cleverly beating Jenrick anyway
1) Reform have peaked; fewer top figures have joined than I would have expected which I feel is a slow acting problem for them. There is evidence that the Tories have turned an emotional corner and are on their way to be considered again.
2) I am much more confident of Badenoch's survival than Starmer. There is no replacement who would be all three of: better, and available and electable.
3) Starmer's survival depends on two key factors: his limpet and protean qualities which got him to PM in the first place and the intense difficulties of arranging a process and agreeing a succession with Labour's rules, the dimness of the backbenchers and the unrepresentative nature of the membership. The only available better well known candidate is Streeting, and neither the MPs nor the membership think so.