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Starmer hits a new low – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,859
edited 9:28AM in General
Starmer hits a new low – politicalbetting.com

Being a accused of being the most unpopular Prime Minister in history by Liz Truss must feel a bit like having your parenting skills criticised by Josef Fritzl.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,892
    Zeroth.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,584
    If she is right 'by some of the polling', what polling is she wrong by?
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,593
    Nth
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,190

    A period of profound silence from Liz Truss would be most welcome.

    Alas, she appears untroubled by self-reflection. Or awareness.

    She is completely unhinged.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,703
    I think Truss so demeaned the position of PM that the new starting position is that all of them are crap until they prove otherwise.

    Starmer hasn't done that yet though I think he's marginally improving
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,484
    Sean_F said:

    A period of profound silence from Liz Truss would be most welcome.

    Alas, she appears untroubled by self-reflection. Or awareness.

    She is completely unhinged.
    That suggests that she was hinge adjacent at some point. When was that?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 125,357

    If she is right 'by some of the polling', what polling is she wrong by?

    Preferred PM/Best PM ratings.

    Preferred on the economy.

    Starmer leads on some of the other supplementaries.

    The only thing Liz Truss led on at the end of her premiership was the worst PM in history.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,915
    On topic for this thread, perhaps the PM’s unpopularity is because of stunts Ike this?

    FPT:
    So who is this Alaa guy, that half of the government appear over the moon to have got back from Egypt on a slow news day?

    https://x.com/keir_starmer/status/2004603692197036322
    https://x.com/davidlammy/status/2004642399230779485
    https://x.com/yvettecoopermp/status/2004625697990746201

    He appears to have a history of wishing death to people, especially Jews.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,584
    Sean_F said:

    A period of profound silence from Liz Truss would be most welcome.

    Alas, she appears untroubled by self-reflection. Or awareness.

    She is completely unhinged.
    Liz Truss has been widely derided as Britain's least popular PM since her brief time in office, not least by Starmer and Reeves, who constantly bring her up to abuse the Tories, often in bizarrely unrelated contexts.

    Now that Starmer's personal ratings have fallen very clearly and markedly below her own at their worst, as has VI polling for his Government, do we expect her not to refer to this fact? Why?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,484
    Roger said:

    I think Truss so demeaned the position of PM that the new starting position is that all of them are crap until they prove otherwise.

    Starmer hasn't done that yet though I think he's marginally improving

    The actual polling says that Starmer started with a fair amount of good will from the public. But worked hard at losing that.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,703
    If only to put to bed her new career as a TV pundit I'd welcome a poll which asked simply 'Who would you prefer as PM Keir Starmer or Liz Truss?'
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,584

    Roger said:

    I think Truss so demeaned the position of PM that the new starting position is that all of them are crap until they prove otherwise.

    Starmer hasn't done that yet though I think he's marginally improving

    The actual polling says that Starmer started with a fair amount of good will from the public. But worked hard at losing that.
    And did so in the absence of an energy crisis, or an LDI timebomb. Starmer managed to become our least popular PM all by himself.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,484
    On the discussion of Russia’s economy -

    Russia is fighting an endless broken backed war, with steady technological regression in its military.

    They can’t produce a whole range of military hardware at more than a trickle.

    Against a country with a GDP between Morocco and Hungary.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 132,287
    edited 9:43AM
    Truss is right that Starmer is an unpopular PM.

    What will encourage Starmer though is that on a forced choice voters prefer him to Farage as PM by 57% to 43% on a new poll. So what may still save him is FPTP tactical voting to stop Farage and the divide on the right, as Kemi by contrast is preferred by voters over Starmer by 52% to 48% in the same Ashcroft poll

    https://bsky.app/profile/rentouljohn.bsky.social/post/3majmkgfwi22c
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 125,357

    Roger said:

    I think Truss so demeaned the position of PM that the new starting position is that all of them are crap until they prove otherwise.

    Starmer hasn't done that yet though I think he's marginally improving

    The actual polling says that Starmer started with a fair amount of good will from the public. But worked hard at losing that.
    And did so in the absence of an energy crisis, or an LDI timebomb. Starmer managed to become our least popular PM all by himself.
    So if things were going swimmingly, why did she fire Kwasi Kwarteng?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,763
    Morning all :)

    Thailand and Cambodia have agreed a ceasefire and we won a Test Match. Not a bad start to a Saturday morning.

    The "gap year" recruitment idea for the armed forces is interesting - my gap year wasn't spent in far flung destinations but working for Mecca Bookmakers so glamourous, it wasn't. I suspect it would look good on the CV and better than saying I went to Thailand or Australia or even Mecca Bookmakers in Panton Street.

    Needless to say, the Conservatives have lambasted it and come up with £50 billion from somewhere to put into defence - "green projects", apparently? If there were £50 billion lying around, I'd rather it went into debt interest repayments but what do I know?

    On Liz Truss, it's interesting - there's something about a British politician being so obsequiously supportive of an American President which grates - we are two countries separated by a common language and for all the shared history, our interests have often diverged and as much now as at any time since 1945.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,444
    The problem for Labour with the comparison is that it was pretty easy to identify what Truss had done wrong - she'd trashed the confidence of the bond market in Britain's willingness to repay its debts - and so her replacement could steady the ship by correcting that error.

    But Starmer has reached his depth of unpopularity by multiple routes. So his replacement, if one is produced by the Labour party, has to make a major policy correction across multiple fronts. And while it was clear that there was majority support among Tory MPs for at least aiming for sound money, it's not at all clear that there is support among Labour MPs for some of the changes that might be necessary. Whatever those might be. That opinions vary on what is required is also part of the problem.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,763

    A period of profound silence from Liz Truss would be most welcome.

    Alas, she appears untroubled by self-reflection. Or awareness.

    It;s an interesting point - we have plenty of ex-Prime Ministers around currently - Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron, May, Johnson, Truss and Sunak to name but eight.

    Some continue to court the limelight constantly - Johnson and Truss. Others prefer the occasional intervention (not often well received) while, as you say, the correct response, once you've published your memoirs and your self-justification for all your mistakes and triumphs, is to retreat into obscurity.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,584

    If she is right 'by some of the polling', what polling is she wrong by?

    Preferred PM/Best PM ratings.

    Preferred on the economy.

    Starmer leads on some of the other supplementaries.

    The only thing Liz Truss led on at the end of her premiership was the worst PM in history.
    That's not comparing apples with apples.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/budget-labour-starmer-reeves-liz-truss-yougov-poll-b2876348.html

    2 December 2025, 10% said that they trusted Labour on the economy.

    15% said that they trusted Truss's Tories at the height of the minibudget crisis.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,763
    HYUFD said:

    Truss is right that Starmer is an unpopular PM.

    What will encourage Starmer though is that on a forced choice voters prefer him to Farage as PM by 57% to 43% on a new poll. So what may still save him is FPTP tactical voting to stop Farage and the divide on the right, as Kemi by contrast is preferred by voters over Starmer by 52% to 48% in the same Ashcroft poll

    https://bsky.app/profile/rentouljohn.bsky.social/post/3majmkgfwi22c

    This is why Badenoch's strategic attitude to Farage and Reform is so important and I've yet to hear anyone from the Conservative (or ex-Conservative side) offer a response to whether the Conservatives under Badenoch should move closer to Reform (as a potential Government coalition partner) or remain distinct from Reform and risk becoming further marginalised?
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,304
    Good morning and seasons greetings to all.

    Albanian criminal can stay in UK because his partner cannot speak Albanian https://share.google/HNqRcl07p0GsZX1IR

    This sort of bollocks decision by the tribunal plays into the hands of those who believe the Human rights act needs reviewing.

    The decision isn't just bollocks its effing ludicrous.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,584

    Roger said:

    I think Truss so demeaned the position of PM that the new starting position is that all of them are crap until they prove otherwise.

    Starmer hasn't done that yet though I think he's marginally improving

    The actual polling says that Starmer started with a fair amount of good will from the public. But worked hard at losing that.
    And did so in the absence of an energy crisis, or an LDI timebomb. Starmer managed to become our least popular PM all by himself.
    So if things were going swimmingly, why did she fire Kwasi Kwarteng?
    Where did I say things went swimmingly? Truss was a poor PM because she failed to implement her agenda. What I maintain is that her agenda would have been beneficial for the economy, and we desperately need a shot in the arm like that now. Sadly, Truss's failure and subsequent infamy gave Starmer a stick to beat the Tories with - but she's absolutely right now that he's lost that stick, to grab it off him and give him a damn good hiding with it.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 125,357

    A period of profound silence from Liz Truss would be most welcome.

    Alas, she appears untroubled by self-reflection. Or awareness.

    I agree with Kemi.

    Kemi Badenoch ‘wants Liz Truss to shut up for a while’

    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2025/01/23/kemi-badenoch-is-100-right-on-this/.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,190

    Good morning and seasons greetings to all.

    Albanian criminal can stay in UK because his partner cannot speak Albanian https://share.google/HNqRcl07p0GsZX1IR

    This sort of bollocks decision by the tribunal plays into the hands of those who believe the Human rights act needs reviewing.

    The decision isn't just bollocks its effing ludicrous.

    She could learn Albanian.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,763

    A period of profound silence from Liz Truss would be most welcome.

    Alas, she appears untroubled by self-reflection. Or awareness.

    I agree with Kemi.

    Kemi Badenoch ‘wants Liz Truss to shut up for a while’

    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2025/01/23/kemi-badenoch-is-100-right-on-this/.
    That was nearly a year ago. Is Liz Truss a member of the Conservative Party? If she isn't, Badenoch might as well be barking at the moon in all honesty. IF Truss is still a party member, that's different.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 125,357

    Good morning and seasons greetings to all.

    Albanian criminal can stay in UK because his partner cannot speak Albanian https://share.google/HNqRcl07p0GsZX1IR

    This sort of bollocks decision by the tribunal plays into the hands of those who believe the Human rights act needs reviewing.

    The decision isn't just bollocks its effing ludicrous.

    I am going to make a prediction that the ruling focussed more on this than the bit the Telegraph have focussed on.

    He claimed this outweighed his criminal threat to society given that he had been jailed for less than a year – the current cut-off point above which foreign offenders face automatic deportation.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,640

    A period of profound silence from Liz Truss would be most welcome.

    Alas, she appears untroubled by self-reflection. Or awareness.

    I agree with Kemi.

    Kemi Badenoch ‘wants Liz Truss to shut up for a while’

    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2025/01/23/kemi-badenoch-is-100-right-on-this/.
    She needs a bit more force.

    https://youtu.be/-3PDoq7w_CY?si=Zv1XjzaDE0Airmyp
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,584
    stodge said:

    A period of profound silence from Liz Truss would be most welcome.

    Alas, she appears untroubled by self-reflection. Or awareness.

    I agree with Kemi.

    Kemi Badenoch ‘wants Liz Truss to shut up for a while’

    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2025/01/23/kemi-badenoch-is-100-right-on-this/.
    That was nearly a year ago. Is Liz Truss a member of the Conservative Party? If she isn't, Badenoch might as well be barking at the moon in all honesty. IF Truss is still a party member, that's different.
    Kemi seems to have moved on from slating Truss, hopefully because she's wised up and doesn't want to load Starmer's gun for him, even if it is a water pistol.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,484
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss is right that Starmer is an unpopular PM.

    What will encourage Starmer though is that on a forced choice voters prefer him to Farage as PM by 57% to 43% on a new poll. So what may still save him is FPTP tactical voting to stop Farage and the divide on the right, as Kemi by contrast is preferred by voters over Starmer by 52% to 48% in the same Ashcroft poll

    https://bsky.app/profile/rentouljohn.bsky.social/post/3majmkgfwi22c

    This is why Badenoch's strategic attitude to Farage and Reform is so important and I've yet to hear anyone from the Conservative (or ex-Conservative side) offer a response to whether the Conservatives under Badenoch should move closer to Reform (as a potential Government coalition partner) or remain distinct from Reform and risk becoming further marginalised?
    The sensible answer to Reform would be to develop policies to deal with the problems that are not Reform “solutions”.

    Starmer has demonstrated that cosplaying Reform doesn’t work.

    For example, a Labour government could change the culture from ever increasing regulation and little enforcement on employment rights and conditions.

    So more inspectors (with teeth) and less bullshit in the paperwork.

    This would reduce costs for the good employers and result in public court cases leading to fines and imprisonment for those who abuse - deliberately paying less than minimum wage, illegal employment etc etc.

    “Enforce the Factory Acts” - that should be popular with the Labour Party and a large chunk of the country.

    No performative cruelty to migrants required.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,190

    On the discussion of Russia’s economy -

    Russia is fighting an endless broken backed war, with steady technological regression in its military.

    They can’t produce a whole range of military hardware at more than a trickle.

    Against a country with a GDP between Morocco and Hungary.

    The Soviet Union held together, against all odds - until it swiftly unravelled.

    Russia has endured incredible hardship, fighting a pointless war of choice - but at some point, it won’t endure it any further.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,444

    Good morning and seasons greetings to all.

    Albanian criminal can stay in UK because his partner cannot speak Albanian https://share.google/HNqRcl07p0GsZX1IR

    This sort of bollocks decision by the tribunal plays into the hands of those who believe the Human rights act needs reviewing.

    The decision isn't just bollocks its effing ludicrous.

    It shouldn't be hard to adjust the bar for the judicial test on this, bearing in mind that the judicial system does all sorts of harsh things to people, such as imprisoning them for years, and that learning a new language is not exactly Impossible.

    It shouldn't require a wholesale rewriting of Human Rights law. Actions should have consequences.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 8,090

    Good morning and seasons greetings to all.

    Albanian criminal can stay in UK because his partner cannot speak Albanian https://share.google/HNqRcl07p0GsZX1IR

    This sort of bollocks decision by the tribunal plays into the hands of those who believe the Human rights act needs reviewing.

    The decision isn't just bollocks its effing ludicrous.

    I am going to make a prediction that the ruling focussed more on this than the bit the Telegraph have focussed on.

    He claimed this outweighed his criminal threat to society given that he had been jailed for less than a year – the current cut-off point above which foreign offenders face automatic deportation.
    "The lawyers also argued that Iberhasaj had started his relationship with his partner at a time when he had no legal right to be in the UK, and the Home Office had made clear it intended to deport him, a fact that she had been made aware of from the beginning by Iberhasaj."

    So, will the same reasoning apply to his deportation prospects unrelated to the crime?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,915
    Sean_F said:

    On the discussion of Russia’s economy -

    Russia is fighting an endless broken backed war, with steady technological regression in its military.

    They can’t produce a whole range of military hardware at more than a trickle.

    Against a country with a GDP between Morocco and Hungary.

    The Soviet Union held together, against all odds - until it swiftly unravelled.

    Russia has endured incredible hardship, fighting a pointless war of choice - but at some point, it won’t endure it any further.
    They’ll eventually run out of assets to sell cheaply to the Chinese.

    These things happen slowly, then very quickly.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,703

    Sean_F said:

    A period of profound silence from Liz Truss would be most welcome.

    Alas, she appears untroubled by self-reflection. Or awareness.

    She is completely unhinged.
    Liz Truss has been widely derided as Britain's least popular PM since her brief time in office, not least by Starmer and Reeves, who constantly bring her up to abuse the Tories, often in bizarrely unrelated contexts.

    Now that Starmer's personal ratings have fallen very clearly and markedly below her own at their worst, as has VI polling for his Government, do we expect her not to refer to this fact? Why?
    When it comes to matters Liz Truss I salute your courage your strength and your indefatigability. Lesser PBers would have given up years ago.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,484
    stodge said:

    A period of profound silence from Liz Truss would be most welcome.

    Alas, she appears untroubled by self-reflection. Or awareness.

    I agree with Kemi.

    Kemi Badenoch ‘wants Liz Truss to shut up for a while’

    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2025/01/23/kemi-badenoch-is-100-right-on-this/.
    That was nearly a year ago. Is Liz Truss a member of the Conservative Party? If she isn't, Badenoch might as well be barking at the moon in all honesty. IF Truss is still a party member, that's different.
    To be fair, Truss has worked quite hard at becoming irrelevant and detaching herself from UK politics. And reality.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 36,017
    edited 10:04AM
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss is right that Starmer is an unpopular PM.

    What will encourage Starmer though is that on a forced choice voters prefer him to Farage as PM by 57% to 43% on a new poll. So what may still save him is FPTP tactical voting to stop Farage and the divide on the right, as Kemi by contrast is preferred by voters over Starmer by 52% to 48% in the same Ashcroft poll

    https://bsky.app/profile/rentouljohn.bsky.social/post/3majmkgfwi22c

    This is why Badenoch's strategic attitude to Farage and Reform is so important and I've yet to hear anyone from the Conservative (or ex-Conservative side) offer a response to whether the Conservatives under Badenoch should move closer to Reform (as a potential Government coalition partner) or remain distinct from Reform and risk becoming further marginalised?
    I suspect those leading the Conservatives have taken a look at Johnson's 2019 arrangement with Farage and thought, "that might work for 2029". Like Starmer Labour the Conservatives have no ideology. One thing the current iteration of the Tories are aware of is one can't grift as successfully (unless one's name is Farage) from opposition.

    So what happens? Reform subsume the Conservatives and call the amalgamation "Conservative Reform" and everyone is happy. Dropping the "Reform" name after a year or two is even better. Nigel Farage succeeds in his lifelong ambition of leading the Conservative Party. Proof that the mountain can come to Mohammed (not a great analogy regarding Farage).

    P.S. PB Tories like HYUFD are getting great mileage out of the Ashcroft poll.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,444
    Sean_F said:

    On the discussion of Russia’s economy -

    Russia is fighting an endless broken backed war, with steady technological regression in its military.

    They can’t produce a whole range of military hardware at more than a trickle.

    Against a country with a GDP between Morocco and Hungary.

    The Soviet Union held together, against all odds - until it swiftly unravelled.

    Russia has endured incredible hardship, fighting a pointless war of choice - but at some point, it won’t endure it any further.
    I think the point is that Russia hasn't yet endured much hardship at all during the war. In some respects the war was good for the outlying regions, as the signing-on bonuses and death payments transferred a good deal of cash into poorer areas.

    They're only just starting to experience a change in that this year and I have no idea how long they will put up with it.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,763

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss is right that Starmer is an unpopular PM.

    What will encourage Starmer though is that on a forced choice voters prefer him to Farage as PM by 57% to 43% on a new poll. So what may still save him is FPTP tactical voting to stop Farage and the divide on the right, as Kemi by contrast is preferred by voters over Starmer by 52% to 48% in the same Ashcroft poll

    https://bsky.app/profile/rentouljohn.bsky.social/post/3majmkgfwi22c

    This is why Badenoch's strategic attitude to Farage and Reform is so important and I've yet to hear anyone from the Conservative (or ex-Conservative side) offer a response to whether the Conservatives under Badenoch should move closer to Reform (as a potential Government coalition partner) or remain distinct from Reform and risk becoming further marginalised?
    The sensible answer to Reform would be to develop policies to deal with the problems that are not Reform “solutions”.

    Starmer has demonstrated that cosplaying Reform doesn’t work.

    For example, a Labour government could change the culture from ever increasing regulation and little enforcement on employment rights and conditions.

    So more inspectors (with teeth) and less bullshit in the paperwork.

    This would reduce costs for the good employers and result in public court cases leading to fines and imprisonment for those who abuse - deliberately paying less than minimum wage, illegal employment etc etc.

    “Enforce the Factory Acts” - that should be popular with the Labour Party and a large chunk of the country.

    No performative cruelty to migrants required.
    This is an area you clearly know more about than I.

    I don't know what the "bullshit in the paperwork" is either - it sounds like a good idea so the question then becomes why haven't Governments of any stripe implemented what seems a sensible solution? I wonder if it's the legal aspect or a lack of manpower to carry out inspections and enforcements.

    To what extent, for example, would employers create fraudulent paperwork to show they were complying with regulations and how do you then prove they aren't? In addition, some "migrants" (whatever that term actually means in this context) are often frightened, desperate people with poor English language skills. They are exploited and whether you want to call it modern slavery or not, the truth is their "life" is on many levels, controlled.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,915
    edited 10:13AM
    Well Cricket Australia’s big idea for tomorrow appears to be - a fan zone in the park, with the Aussie team appearing.

    https://x.com/mcg/status/2004837407968129467
    https://x.com/cricketaus/status/2004845237467054491

    Maybe a few lucky fans can get some autographs instead of a Test Match?

    They should really have done something sporting back in the ground, with free admission for ticketholders. An all-star T20 maybe, there would have been quite a few former pros there doing media work who could have put their pads on for a few minutes.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,703

    Good morning and seasons greetings to all.

    Albanian criminal can stay in UK because his partner cannot speak Albanian https://share.google/HNqRcl07p0GsZX1IR

    This sort of bollocks decision by the tribunal plays into the hands of those who believe the Human rights act needs reviewing.

    The decision isn't just bollocks its effing ludicrous.

    Don't you find it more worrying that in a country of 68 million people one of our leading newspapers gives half a page to a frankly ridiculous story just to raise the blood pressure of some silly old codgers who would otherwise be enjoying their boxing day.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 125,357
    At around 2.55pm me and 60,000 other people are going to be emotional wrecks.

    Diogo Jota’s two sons to join mascots at Anfield for Liverpool v Wolves

    Late Portuguese’s former English clubs meet on Saturday

    Dinis and Duarte also attended clubs’ season openers


    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2025/dec/26/diogo-jota-two-sons-to-join-mascots-at-anfield-for-liverpool-v-wolves
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,444
    edited 10:13AM
    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss is right that Starmer is an unpopular PM.

    What will encourage Starmer though is that on a forced choice voters prefer him to Farage as PM by 57% to 43% on a new poll. So what may still save him is FPTP tactical voting to stop Farage and the divide on the right, as Kemi by contrast is preferred by voters over Starmer by 52% to 48% in the same Ashcroft poll

    https://bsky.app/profile/rentouljohn.bsky.social/post/3majmkgfwi22c

    This is why Badenoch's strategic attitude to Farage and Reform is so important and I've yet to hear anyone from the Conservative (or ex-Conservative side) offer a response to whether the Conservatives under Badenoch should move closer to Reform (as a potential Government coalition partner) or remain distinct from Reform and risk becoming further marginalised?
    The sensible answer to Reform would be to develop policies to deal with the problems that are not Reform “solutions”.

    Starmer has demonstrated that cosplaying Reform doesn’t work.

    For example, a Labour government could change the culture from ever increasing regulation and little enforcement on employment rights and conditions.

    So more inspectors (with teeth) and less bullshit in the paperwork.

    This would reduce costs for the good employers and result in public court cases leading to fines and imprisonment for those who abuse - deliberately paying less than minimum wage, illegal employment etc etc.

    “Enforce the Factory Acts” - that should be popular with the Labour Party and a large chunk of the country.

    No performative cruelty to migrants required.
    This is an area you clearly know more about than I.

    I don't know what the "bullshit in the paperwork" is either - it sounds like a good idea so the question then becomes why haven't Governments of any stripe implemented what seems a sensible solution? I wonder if it's the legal aspect or a lack of manpower to carry out inspections and enforcements.

    To what extent, for example, would employers create fraudulent paperwork to show they were complying with regulations and how do you then prove they aren't? In addition, some "migrants" (whatever that term actually means in this context) are often frightened, desperate people with poor English language skills. They are exploited and whether you want to call it modern slavery or not, the truth is their "life" is on many levels, controlled.
    I don't know whether the law was changed after some controversy over the zealousness of the RSPCA, but I understand that they used to have the power to bring forward criminal prosecutions relating to abuse of animals.

    So one innovative solution would be to give trade unions the power to initiate criminal prosecutions of employers for transgressing employment rights and law. Then the government doesn't have to worry about finding the resources to enforce this area of law, and trade unions are motivated to do a thorough job of it.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 36,017

    At around 2.55pm me and 60,000 other people are going to be emotional wrecks.

    Diogo Jota’s two sons to join mascots at Anfield for Liverpool v Wolves

    Late Portuguese’s former English clubs meet on Saturday

    Dinis and Duarte also attended clubs’ season openers


    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2025/dec/26/diogo-jota-two-sons-to-join-mascots-at-anfield-for-liverpool-v-wolves

    Liverpool could even play the two lads for 90 minutes and still come away with three easy points from The Dingles.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,703
    Sandpit said:

    Sean_F said:

    On the discussion of Russia’s economy -

    Russia is fighting an endless broken backed war, with steady technological regression in its military.

    They can’t produce a whole range of military hardware at more than a trickle.

    Against a country with a GDP between Morocco and Hungary.

    The Soviet Union held together, against all odds - until it swiftly unravelled.

    Russia has endured incredible hardship, fighting a pointless war of choice - but at some point, it won’t endure it any further.
    They’ll eventually run out of assets to sell cheaply to the Chinese.

    These things happen slowly, then very quickly.
    PS. I don't want to worry you but there are an awful lot of large cars driving around Cap Ferrat with Ukrainian number plates.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,304
    Roger said:

    Good morning and seasons greetings to all.

    Albanian criminal can stay in UK because his partner cannot speak Albanian https://share.google/HNqRcl07p0GsZX1IR

    This sort of bollocks decision by the tribunal plays into the hands of those who believe the Human rights act needs reviewing.

    The decision isn't just bollocks its effing ludicrous.

    Don't you find it more worrying that in a country of 68 million people one of our leading newspapers gives half a page to a frankly ridiculous story just to raise the blood pressure of some silly old codgers who would otherwise be enjoying their boxing day.
    No Roger .but it does show your moronic train of thought if you think it should be ignored.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,413

    On the discussion of Russia’s economy -

    Russia is fighting an endless broken backed war, with steady technological regression in its military.

    They can’t produce a whole range of military hardware at more than a trickle.

    Against a country with a GDP between Morocco and Hungary.

    Ironically both countries would be better off going back in time to when Russia paid Ukraine to pipe oil across it, before this futile war started.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,444
    Sandpit said:

    Well Cricket Australia’s big idea for tomorrow appears to be - a fan zone in the park, with the Aussie team appearing.

    https://x.com/mcg/status/2004837407968129467
    https://x.com/cricketaus/status/2004845237467054491

    Maybe a few lucky fans can get some autographs instead of a Test Match?

    They should really have done something sporting back in the ground, with free admission for ticketholders. An all-star T20 maybe, there would have been quite a few former pros there doing media work who could have put their pads on for a few minutes.

    Maybe a change in the playing regulations for Tests is required? If two innings for each team has been completed before the end of day two, and the Match Referee determines that the weather forecast is good enough to provide at least another day's play, then each team should have a third innings.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,286
    Sandpit said:

    Well Cricket Australia’s big idea for tomorrow appears to be - a fan zone in the park, with the Aussie team appearing.

    https://x.com/mcg/status/2004837407968129467
    https://x.com/cricketaus/status/2004845237467054491

    Maybe a few lucky fans can get some autographs instead of a Test Match?

    They should really have done something sporting back in the ground, with free admission for ticketholders. An all-star T20 maybe, there would have been quite a few former pros there doing media work who could have put their pads on for a few minutes.

    Be fair, they've paid for a dramatic, fast paced, test match, they are not going to want to watch that slow, boring, drawn out, defensive T20 version.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,484
    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss is right that Starmer is an unpopular PM.

    What will encourage Starmer though is that on a forced choice voters prefer him to Farage as PM by 57% to 43% on a new poll. So what may still save him is FPTP tactical voting to stop Farage and the divide on the right, as Kemi by contrast is preferred by voters over Starmer by 52% to 48% in the same Ashcroft poll

    https://bsky.app/profile/rentouljohn.bsky.social/post/3majmkgfwi22c

    This is why Badenoch's strategic attitude to Farage and Reform is so important and I've yet to hear anyone from the Conservative (or ex-Conservative side) offer a response to whether the Conservatives under Badenoch should move closer to Reform (as a potential Government coalition partner) or remain distinct from Reform and risk becoming further marginalised?
    The sensible answer to Reform would be to develop policies to deal with the problems that are not Reform “solutions”.

    Starmer has demonstrated that cosplaying Reform doesn’t work.

    For example, a Labour government could change the culture from ever increasing regulation and little enforcement on employment rights and conditions.

    So more inspectors (with teeth) and less bullshit in the paperwork.

    This would reduce costs for the good employers and result in public court cases leading to fines and imprisonment for those who abuse - deliberately paying less than minimum wage, illegal employment etc etc.

    “Enforce the Factory Acts” - that should be popular with the Labour Party and a large chunk of the country.

    No performative cruelty to migrants required.
    This is an area you clearly know more about than I.

    I don't know what the "bullshit in the paperwork" is either - it sounds like a good idea so the question then becomes why haven't Governments of any stripe implemented what seems a sensible solution? I wonder if it's the legal aspect or a lack of manpower to carry out inspections and enforcements.

    To what extent, for example, would employers create fraudulent paperwork to show they were complying with regulations and how do you then prove they aren't? In addition, some "migrants" (whatever that term actually means in this context) are often frightened, desperate people with poor English language skills. They are exploited and whether you want to call it modern slavery or not, the truth is their "life" is on many levels, controlled.
    The Victorians managed to enforce the Faxtory Acts. Because they used inspectors who were given the power to inspect. And agencies behind them, who would prosecute.

    The current UK approach to standards goes like this -

    Write ever more complex regulations. The user/employer generates paperwork to demonstrate compliance. There is too little enforcement.

    For example - a loft conversion. The builder is supposed to put north of 20 pages, as part of a document the size of a telephone directory, on how they will mitigate “slip hazards”. There is a separate section for trip hazards. There is, essentially no enforcement of this. So

    1) big builders copy and pasta the same stuff into the boilerplate template every time.
    2) the cash in hand mob ignore it completely
    3) the well run builders bring in Henry vac along with the kettle. And a broom. And use them.

    So lots of people get injured on building sites run by scumbags/idiots.

    On the upside, the generation of the bullshit that no one reads is being streamlined by AI.

    You might be amused to hear that concerns have been raised that the Post-Grenfell paperwork won’t prevent highly inflammable buildings being built. Because people are gaming the paperwork to comply.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,444

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss is right that Starmer is an unpopular PM.

    What will encourage Starmer though is that on a forced choice voters prefer him to Farage as PM by 57% to 43% on a new poll. So what may still save him is FPTP tactical voting to stop Farage and the divide on the right, as Kemi by contrast is preferred by voters over Starmer by 52% to 48% in the same Ashcroft poll

    https://bsky.app/profile/rentouljohn.bsky.social/post/3majmkgfwi22c

    This is why Badenoch's strategic attitude to Farage and Reform is so important and I've yet to hear anyone from the Conservative (or ex-Conservative side) offer a response to whether the Conservatives under Badenoch should move closer to Reform (as a potential Government coalition partner) or remain distinct from Reform and risk becoming further marginalised?
    The sensible answer to Reform would be to develop policies to deal with the problems that are not Reform “solutions”.

    Starmer has demonstrated that cosplaying Reform doesn’t work.

    For example, a Labour government could change the culture from ever increasing regulation and little enforcement on employment rights and conditions.

    So more inspectors (with teeth) and less bullshit in the paperwork.

    This would reduce costs for the good employers and result in public court cases leading to fines and imprisonment for those who abuse - deliberately paying less than minimum wage, illegal employment etc etc.

    “Enforce the Factory Acts” - that should be popular with the Labour Party and a large chunk of the country.

    No performative cruelty to migrants required.
    This is an area you clearly know more about than I.

    I don't know what the "bullshit in the paperwork" is either - it sounds like a good idea so the question then becomes why haven't Governments of any stripe implemented what seems a sensible solution? I wonder if it's the legal aspect or a lack of manpower to carry out inspections and enforcements.

    To what extent, for example, would employers create fraudulent paperwork to show they were complying with regulations and how do you then prove they aren't? In addition, some "migrants" (whatever that term actually means in this context) are often frightened, desperate people with poor English language skills. They are exploited and whether you want to call it modern slavery or not, the truth is their "life" is on many levels, controlled.
    The Victorians managed to enforce the Faxtory Acts. Because they used inspectors who were given the power to inspect. And agencies behind them, who would prosecute.

    The current UK approach to standards goes like this -

    Write ever more complex regulations. The user/employer generates paperwork to demonstrate compliance. There is too little enforcement.

    For example - a loft conversion. The builder is supposed to put north of 20 pages, as part of a document the size of a telephone directory, on how they will mitigate “slip hazards”. There is a separate section for trip hazards. There is, essentially no enforcement of this. So

    1) big builders copy and pasta the same stuff into the boilerplate template every time.
    2) the cash in hand mob ignore it completely
    3) the well run builders bring in Henry vac along with the kettle. And a broom. And use them.

    So lots of people get injured on building sites run by scumbags/idiots.

    On the upside, the generation of the bullshit that no one reads is being streamlined by AI.

    You might be amused to hear that concerns have been raised that the Post-Grenfell paperwork won’t prevent highly inflammable buildings being built. Because people are gaming the paperwork to comply.
    Paper is surprisingly hard to burn when it's stacked - air can't get in to the leaves away from the exposed edges.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,640

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss is right that Starmer is an unpopular PM.

    What will encourage Starmer though is that on a forced choice voters prefer him to Farage as PM by 57% to 43% on a new poll. So what may still save him is FPTP tactical voting to stop Farage and the divide on the right, as Kemi by contrast is preferred by voters over Starmer by 52% to 48% in the same Ashcroft poll

    https://bsky.app/profile/rentouljohn.bsky.social/post/3majmkgfwi22c

    This is why Badenoch's strategic attitude to Farage and Reform is so important and I've yet to hear anyone from the Conservative (or ex-Conservative side) offer a response to whether the Conservatives under Badenoch should move closer to Reform (as a potential Government coalition partner) or remain distinct from Reform and risk becoming further marginalised?
    The sensible answer to Reform would be to develop policies to deal with the problems that are not Reform “solutions”.

    Starmer has demonstrated that cosplaying Reform doesn’t work.

    For example, a Labour government could change the culture from ever increasing regulation and little enforcement on employment rights and conditions.

    So more inspectors (with teeth) and less bullshit in the paperwork.

    This would reduce costs for the good employers and result in public court cases leading to fines and imprisonment for those who abuse - deliberately paying less than minimum wage, illegal employment etc etc.

    “Enforce the Factory Acts” - that should be popular with the Labour Party and a large chunk of the country.

    No performative cruelty to migrants required.
    This is an area you clearly know more about than I.

    I don't know what the "bullshit in the paperwork" is either - it sounds like a good idea so the question then becomes why haven't Governments of any stripe implemented what seems a sensible solution? I wonder if it's the legal aspect or a lack of manpower to carry out inspections and enforcements.

    To what extent, for example, would employers create fraudulent paperwork to show they were complying with regulations and how do you then prove they aren't? In addition, some "migrants" (whatever that term actually means in this context) are often frightened, desperate people with poor English language skills. They are exploited and whether you want to call it modern slavery or not, the truth is their "life" is on many levels, controlled.
    I don't know whether the law was changed after some controversy over the zealousness of the RSPCA, but I understand that they used to have the power to bring forward criminal prosecutions relating to abuse of animals.

    So one innovative solution would be to give trade unions the power to initiate criminal prosecutions of employers for transgressing employment rights and law. Then the government doesn't have to worry about finding the resources to enforce this area of law, and trade unions are motivated to do a thorough job of it.
    That never ends well. Not only the RSPCA illegally forcing entry and stealing animals on false info, but Horizon as well.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,484

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss is right that Starmer is an unpopular PM.

    What will encourage Starmer though is that on a forced choice voters prefer him to Farage as PM by 57% to 43% on a new poll. So what may still save him is FPTP tactical voting to stop Farage and the divide on the right, as Kemi by contrast is preferred by voters over Starmer by 52% to 48% in the same Ashcroft poll

    https://bsky.app/profile/rentouljohn.bsky.social/post/3majmkgfwi22c

    This is why Badenoch's strategic attitude to Farage and Reform is so important and I've yet to hear anyone from the Conservative (or ex-Conservative side) offer a response to whether the Conservatives under Badenoch should move closer to Reform (as a potential Government coalition partner) or remain distinct from Reform and risk becoming further marginalised?
    The sensible answer to Reform would be to develop policies to deal with the problems that are not Reform “solutions”.

    Starmer has demonstrated that cosplaying Reform doesn’t work.

    For example, a Labour government could change the culture from ever increasing regulation and little enforcement on employment rights and conditions.

    So more inspectors (with teeth) and less bullshit in the paperwork.

    This would reduce costs for the good employers and result in public court cases leading to fines and imprisonment for those who abuse - deliberately paying less than minimum wage, illegal employment etc etc.

    “Enforce the Factory Acts” - that should be popular with the Labour Party and a large chunk of the country.

    No performative cruelty to migrants required.
    This is an area you clearly know more about than I.

    I don't know what the "bullshit in the paperwork" is either - it sounds like a good idea so the question then becomes why haven't Governments of any stripe implemented what seems a sensible solution? I wonder if it's the legal aspect or a lack of manpower to carry out inspections and enforcements.

    To what extent, for example, would employers create fraudulent paperwork to show they were complying with regulations and how do you then prove they aren't? In addition, some "migrants" (whatever that term actually means in this context) are often frightened, desperate people with poor English language skills. They are exploited and whether you want to call it modern slavery or not, the truth is their "life" is on many levels, controlled.
    I don't know whether the law was changed after some controversy over the zealousness of the RSPCA, but I understand that they used to have the power to bring forward criminal prosecutions relating to abuse of animals.

    So one innovative solution would be to give trade unions the power to initiate criminal prosecutions of employers for transgressing employment rights and law. Then the government doesn't have to worry about finding the resources to enforce this area of law, and trade unions are motivated to do a thorough job of it.
    Private prosecutions for any crime are possible. You don’t need special powers.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 132,287
    stodge said:

    A period of profound silence from Liz Truss would be most welcome.

    Alas, she appears untroubled by self-reflection. Or awareness.

    It;s an interesting point - we have plenty of ex-Prime Ministers around currently - Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron, May, Johnson, Truss and Sunak to name but eight.

    Some continue to court the limelight constantly - Johnson and Truss. Others prefer the occasional intervention (not often well received) while, as you say, the correct response, once you've published your memoirs and your self-justification for all your mistakes and triumphs, is to retreat into obscurity.
    Thatcher didn’t, casting her shadow over the Tory party, stopping Clarke and Heseltine ever becoming party leader and pressing the Eurosceptic case for over a decade after she left office. She also made millions on the lecture circuit in the US.

    Then again she was Baroness Thatcher, not just a UK but global stateswoman and icon. Liz was outlasted by a lettuce in her time spent in office, much as she might like to think she was a mini Thatcher
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,531

    Sean_F said:

    A period of profound silence from Liz Truss would be most welcome.

    Alas, she appears untroubled by self-reflection. Or awareness.

    She is completely unhinged.
    That suggests that she was hinge adjacent at some point. When was that?
    Perhaps when she was adoored?
  • isamisam Posts: 43,255
    edited 10:28AM
    I thought the new low was going to be his delight at the release of the Egyptian Lucy Connolly

    I’m delighted that Alaa Abd El-Fattah is back in the UK and has been reunited with his loved ones, who must be feeling profound relief.

    I want to pay tribute to Alaa’s family, and to all those that have worked and campaigned for this moment.

    Alaa's case has been a top priority for my government since we came to office. I’m grateful to President Sisi for his decision to grant the par
    don.

    https://x.com/keir_starmer/status/2004603692197036322?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 132,287
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss is right that Starmer is an unpopular PM.

    What will encourage Starmer though is that on a forced choice voters prefer him to Farage as PM by 57% to 43% on a new poll. So what may still save him is FPTP tactical voting to stop Farage and the divide on the right, as Kemi by contrast is preferred by voters over Starmer by 52% to 48% in the same Ashcroft poll

    https://bsky.app/profile/rentouljohn.bsky.social/post/3majmkgfwi22c

    This is why Badenoch's strategic attitude to Farage and Reform is so important and I've yet to hear anyone from the Conservative (or ex-Conservative side) offer a response to whether the Conservatives under Badenoch should move closer to Reform (as a potential Government coalition partner) or remain distinct from Reform and risk becoming further marginalised?
    Tories like Cleverly have ruled out any deals with Farage, Jenrick is more open to it to remove Labour, Kemi is on the fence
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,127
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss is right that Starmer is an unpopular PM.

    What will encourage Starmer though is that on a forced choice voters prefer him to Farage as PM by 57% to 43% on a new poll. So what may still save him is FPTP tactical voting to stop Farage and the divide on the right, as Kemi by contrast is preferred by voters over Starmer by 52% to 48% in the same Ashcroft poll

    https://bsky.app/profile/rentouljohn.bsky.social/post/3majmkgfwi22c

    This is why Badenoch's strategic attitude to Farage and Reform is so important and I've yet to hear anyone from the Conservative (or ex-Conservative side) offer a response to whether the Conservatives under Badenoch should move closer to Reform (as a potential Government coalition partner) or remain distinct from Reform and risk becoming further marginalised?
    Indeed, for a significant number of voters (including me) this is a central question. However only anoraks like us are asking the question now. Normal people are recovering from hangovers and buying junk in the sales. This will continue, mutatis mutandis, until sometime in 2027/8 when it will start occurring to people that we have an election sometime.

    Between now and then the Tory task is different though hard. A tiny start has been made. By the end of 2027 they need to look like the main party for the 50% or voters who will in the GE vote for what is called (whatever the reality) a right of centre party. Only Reform and Tories fit this.

    The Tory hope will be that by then the question is not 'would Tories sustain Reform' but 'would Reform sustain the Tories'.

    If it isn't achieved, then the 50% left of centre vote is going to form the next government.

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,413

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss is right that Starmer is an unpopular PM.

    What will encourage Starmer though is that on a forced choice voters prefer him to Farage as PM by 57% to 43% on a new poll. So what may still save him is FPTP tactical voting to stop Farage and the divide on the right, as Kemi by contrast is preferred by voters over Starmer by 52% to 48% in the same Ashcroft poll

    https://bsky.app/profile/rentouljohn.bsky.social/post/3majmkgfwi22c

    This is why Badenoch's strategic attitude to Farage and Reform is so important and I've yet to hear anyone from the Conservative (or ex-Conservative side) offer a response to whether the Conservatives under Badenoch should move closer to Reform (as a potential Government coalition partner) or remain distinct from Reform and risk becoming further marginalised?
    The sensible answer to Reform would be to develop policies to deal with the problems that are not Reform “solutions”.

    Starmer has demonstrated that cosplaying Reform doesn’t work.

    For example, a Labour government could change the culture from ever increasing regulation and little enforcement on employment rights and conditions.

    So more inspectors (with teeth) and less bullshit in the paperwork.

    This would reduce costs for the good employers and result in public court cases leading to fines and imprisonment for those who abuse - deliberately paying less than minimum wage, illegal employment etc etc.

    “Enforce the Factory Acts” - that should be popular with the Labour Party and a large chunk of the country.

    No performative cruelty to migrants required.
    This is an area you clearly know more about than I.

    I don't know what the "bullshit in the paperwork" is either - it sounds like a good idea so the question then becomes why haven't Governments of any stripe implemented what seems a sensible solution? I wonder if it's the legal aspect or a lack of manpower to carry out inspections and enforcements.

    To what extent, for example, would employers create fraudulent paperwork to show they were complying with regulations and how do you then prove they aren't? In addition, some "migrants" (whatever that term actually means in this context) are often frightened, desperate people with poor English language skills. They are exploited and whether you want to call it modern slavery or not, the truth is their "life" is on many levels, controlled.
    I don't know whether the law was changed after some controversy over the zealousness of the RSPCA, but I understand that they used to have the power to bring forward criminal prosecutions relating to abuse of animals.

    So one innovative solution would be to give trade unions the power to initiate criminal prosecutions of employers for transgressing employment rights and law. Then the government doesn't have to worry about finding the resources to enforce this area of law, and trade unions are motivated to do a thorough job of it.
    Private prosecutions for any crime are possible. You don’t need special powers.
    Betting shops prosecuted fraudsters because the police were uninterested. Perhaps the supermarket chains could do something similar if they see shoplifting as anything more than a minor inconvenience.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,444
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    A period of profound silence from Liz Truss would be most welcome.

    Alas, she appears untroubled by self-reflection. Or awareness.

    It;s an interesting point - we have plenty of ex-Prime Ministers around currently - Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron, May, Johnson, Truss and Sunak to name but eight.

    Some continue to court the limelight constantly - Johnson and Truss. Others prefer the occasional intervention (not often well received) while, as you say, the correct response, once you've published your memoirs and your self-justification for all your mistakes and triumphs, is to retreat into obscurity.
    Thatcher didn’t, casting her shadow over the Tory party, stopping Clarke and Heseltine ever becoming party leader and pressing the Eurosceptic case for over a decade after she left office. She also made millions on the lecture circuit in the US.

    Then again she was Baroness Thatcher, not just a UK but global stateswoman and icon. Liz was outlasted by a lettuce in her time spent in office, much as she might like to think she was a mini Thatcher
    Going by length of tenure, Truss was 1.183% of a Thatcher, which I think is generous to her.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,127
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss is right that Starmer is an unpopular PM.

    What will encourage Starmer though is that on a forced choice voters prefer him to Farage as PM by 57% to 43% on a new poll. So what may still save him is FPTP tactical voting to stop Farage and the divide on the right, as Kemi by contrast is preferred by voters over Starmer by 52% to 48% in the same Ashcroft poll

    https://bsky.app/profile/rentouljohn.bsky.social/post/3majmkgfwi22c

    This is why Badenoch's strategic attitude to Farage and Reform is so important and I've yet to hear anyone from the Conservative (or ex-Conservative side) offer a response to whether the Conservatives under Badenoch should move closer to Reform (as a potential Government coalition partner) or remain distinct from Reform and risk becoming further marginalised?
    Tories like Cleverly have ruled out any deals with Farage, Jenrick is more open to it to remove Labour, Kemi is on the fence
    A policy of Yes, No and Undecided is not a policy.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 27,149
    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss is right that Starmer is an unpopular PM.

    What will encourage Starmer though is that on a forced choice voters prefer him to Farage as PM by 57% to 43% on a new poll. So what may still save him is FPTP tactical voting to stop Farage and the divide on the right, as Kemi by contrast is preferred by voters over Starmer by 52% to 48% in the same Ashcroft poll

    https://bsky.app/profile/rentouljohn.bsky.social/post/3majmkgfwi22c

    This is why Badenoch's strategic attitude to Farage and Reform is so important and I've yet to hear anyone from the Conservative (or ex-Conservative side) offer a response to whether the Conservatives under Badenoch should move closer to Reform (as a potential Government coalition partner) or remain distinct from Reform and risk becoming further marginalised?
    Tories like Cleverly have ruled out any deals with Farage, Jenrick is more open to it to remove Labour, Kemi is on the fence
    A policy of Yes, No and Undecided is not a policy.
    "You're not the boss of me now, you're not the boss of me now, and I don't care. Life is unfair..."

    Whatever happened to "Malcolm in the Middle" and the actor who played his dad. Jumpers for goalposts...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 132,287

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss is right that Starmer is an unpopular PM.

    What will encourage Starmer though is that on a forced choice voters prefer him to Farage as PM by 57% to 43% on a new poll. So what may still save him is FPTP tactical voting to stop Farage and the divide on the right, as Kemi by contrast is preferred by voters over Starmer by 52% to 48% in the same Ashcroft poll

    https://bsky.app/profile/rentouljohn.bsky.social/post/3majmkgfwi22c

    This is why Badenoch's strategic attitude to Farage and Reform is so important and I've yet to hear anyone from the Conservative (or ex-Conservative side) offer a response to whether the Conservatives under Badenoch should move closer to Reform (as a potential Government coalition partner) or remain distinct from Reform and risk becoming further marginalised?
    I suspect those leading the Conservatives have taken a look at Johnson's 2019 arrangement with Farage and thought, "that might work for 2029". Like Starmer Labour the Conservatives have no ideology. One thing the current iteration of the Tories are aware of is one can't grift as successfully (unless one's name is Farage) from opposition.

    So what happens? Reform subsume the Conservatives and call the amalgamation "Conservative Reform" and everyone is happy. Dropping the "Reform" name after a year or two is even better. Nigel Farage succeeds in his lifelong ambition of leading the Conservative Party. Proof that the mountain can come to Mohammed (not a great analogy regarding Farage).

    P.S. PB Tories like HYUFD are getting great mileage out of the Ashcroft poll.
    Not really happening.

    Another interesting fact in the new Ashcroft poll was that while 2/3 of Reform voters said the Conservatives were their second choice party, less than half of current Conservative voters said Reform were their second choice.

    Indeed a full 1/3 of Conservative voters said the Liberal Democrats were their second choice party

    https://conservativehome.com/2025/12/23/lord-ashcroft-as-christmas-approaches-which-party-leaders-are-getting-coal-from-the-voters/
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 8,090
    viewcode said:

    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss is right that Starmer is an unpopular PM.

    What will encourage Starmer though is that on a forced choice voters prefer him to Farage as PM by 57% to 43% on a new poll. So what may still save him is FPTP tactical voting to stop Farage and the divide on the right, as Kemi by contrast is preferred by voters over Starmer by 52% to 48% in the same Ashcroft poll

    https://bsky.app/profile/rentouljohn.bsky.social/post/3majmkgfwi22c

    This is why Badenoch's strategic attitude to Farage and Reform is so important and I've yet to hear anyone from the Conservative (or ex-Conservative side) offer a response to whether the Conservatives under Badenoch should move closer to Reform (as a potential Government coalition partner) or remain distinct from Reform and risk becoming further marginalised?
    Tories like Cleverly have ruled out any deals with Farage, Jenrick is more open to it to remove Labour, Kemi is on the fence
    A policy of Yes, No and Undecided is not a policy.
    "You're not the boss of me now, you're not the boss of me now, and I don't care. Life is unfair..."

    Whatever happened to "Malcolm in the Middle" and the actor who played his dad. Jumpers for goalposts...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_in_the_Middle:_Life's_Still_Unfair
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,484

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss is right that Starmer is an unpopular PM.

    What will encourage Starmer though is that on a forced choice voters prefer him to Farage as PM by 57% to 43% on a new poll. So what may still save him is FPTP tactical voting to stop Farage and the divide on the right, as Kemi by contrast is preferred by voters over Starmer by 52% to 48% in the same Ashcroft poll

    https://bsky.app/profile/rentouljohn.bsky.social/post/3majmkgfwi22c

    This is why Badenoch's strategic attitude to Farage and Reform is so important and I've yet to hear anyone from the Conservative (or ex-Conservative side) offer a response to whether the Conservatives under Badenoch should move closer to Reform (as a potential Government coalition partner) or remain distinct from Reform and risk becoming further marginalised?
    The sensible answer to Reform would be to develop policies to deal with the problems that are not Reform “solutions”.

    Starmer has demonstrated that cosplaying Reform doesn’t work.

    For example, a Labour government could change the culture from ever increasing regulation and little enforcement on employment rights and conditions.

    So more inspectors (with teeth) and less bullshit in the paperwork.

    This would reduce costs for the good employers and result in public court cases leading to fines and imprisonment for those who abuse - deliberately paying less than minimum wage, illegal employment etc etc.

    “Enforce the Factory Acts” - that should be popular with the Labour Party and a large chunk of the country.

    No performative cruelty to migrants required.
    This is an area you clearly know more about than I.

    I don't know what the "bullshit in the paperwork" is either - it sounds like a good idea so the question then becomes why haven't Governments of any stripe implemented what seems a sensible solution? I wonder if it's the legal aspect or a lack of manpower to carry out inspections and enforcements.

    To what extent, for example, would employers create fraudulent paperwork to show they were complying with regulations and how do you then prove they aren't? In addition, some "migrants" (whatever that term actually means in this context) are often frightened, desperate people with poor English language skills. They are exploited and whether you want to call it modern slavery or not, the truth is their "life" is on many levels, controlled.
    I don't know whether the law was changed after some controversy over the zealousness of the RSPCA, but I understand that they used to have the power to bring forward criminal prosecutions relating to abuse of animals.

    So one innovative solution would be to give trade unions the power to initiate criminal prosecutions of employers for transgressing employment rights and law. Then the government doesn't have to worry about finding the resources to enforce this area of law, and trade unions are motivated to do a thorough job of it.
    Private prosecutions for any crime are possible. You don’t need special powers.
    Betting shops prosecuted fraudsters because the police were uninterested. Perhaps the supermarket chains could do something similar if they see shoplifting as anything more than a minor inconvenience.
    Private prosecutions are disliked by The System.

    I attended a community meeting where the police actually berated an org for doing private prosecutions.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,574
    edited 10:46AM

    The problem for Labour with the comparison is that it was pretty easy to identify what Truss had done wrong - she'd trashed the confidence of the bond market in Britain's willingness to repay its debts - and so her replacement could steady the ship by correcting that error.

    But Starmer has reached his depth of unpopularity by multiple routes. So his replacement, if one is produced by the Labour party, has to make a major policy correction across multiple fronts. And while it was clear that there was majority support among Tory MPs for at least aiming for sound money, it's not at all clear that there is support among Labour MPs for some of the changes that might be necessary. Whatever those might be. That opinions vary on what is required is also part of the problem.

    I think what's key is to assess (and the party will be doing exactly this) how the unpopularity of Keir Starmer is split across the following root causes:

    1. The public are not seeing or feeling the improvements in living standards and public services and border control that they expected a change in government from Conservative to Labour would bring about. CHANGE. Where is it?

    2. The man himself is proving a turn-off to the public. They don't like him. There's no emotional connection. He can't sell either himself or a narrative of what his PMship is all about.

    A mix of the political and the personal if you like. Of course there's overlap between these two things but it's useful for punters to separate them when considering Labour’s GE prospects because the second is much the easier to fix (via change of leader).
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,028
    Just going into that new Avatar movie for about 8 hours, it must be bombing as theyre only doing like 5 screenings a day.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,444
    kinabalu said:

    The problem for Labour with the comparison is that it was pretty easy to identify what Truss had done wrong - she'd trashed the confidence of the bond market in Britain's willingness to repay its debts - and so her replacement could steady the ship by correcting that error.

    But Starmer has reached his depth of unpopularity by multiple routes. So his replacement, if one is produced by the Labour party, has to make a major policy correction across multiple fronts. And while it was clear that there was majority support among Tory MPs for at least aiming for sound money, it's not at all clear that there is support among Labour MPs for some of the changes that might be necessary. Whatever those might be. That opinions vary on what is required is also part of the problem.

    I think what's key is to assess (and the party will be doing exactly this) how the unpopularity of Keir Starmer is split across the following root causes:

    1. The public are not seeing or feeling the improvements in living standards and public services and border control that they expected a change in government from Conservative to Labour would bring about. CHANGE. Where is it?

    2. The man himself is proving a turn-off to the public. They don't like him. There's no emotional connection. He can't sell either himself or a narrative of what his PMship is all about.

    A mix of the political and the personal if you like. Of course there's overlap between these two things but it's useful for punters to separate them when considering Labour’s GE prospects because the second is much the easier to fix (via change of leader).
    I think the two are connected.

    Despite occasional outbursts to the contrary I think most people recognise that they would be rubbish at being PM and so they're happy that someone else is doing the job, on the proviso that that person knows what they are doing. Starmer scores highly on "not having an effing clue" and that creates resentment.

    After all, I could make a horlicks of being PM at least as well as Starmer, so what's the point of him?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,915

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss is right that Starmer is an unpopular PM.

    What will encourage Starmer though is that on a forced choice voters prefer him to Farage as PM by 57% to 43% on a new poll. So what may still save him is FPTP tactical voting to stop Farage and the divide on the right, as Kemi by contrast is preferred by voters over Starmer by 52% to 48% in the same Ashcroft poll

    https://bsky.app/profile/rentouljohn.bsky.social/post/3majmkgfwi22c

    This is why Badenoch's strategic attitude to Farage and Reform is so important and I've yet to hear anyone from the Conservative (or ex-Conservative side) offer a response to whether the Conservatives under Badenoch should move closer to Reform (as a potential Government coalition partner) or remain distinct from Reform and risk becoming further marginalised?
    The sensible answer to Reform would be to develop policies to deal with the problems that are not Reform “solutions”.

    Starmer has demonstrated that cosplaying Reform doesn’t work.

    For example, a Labour government could change the culture from ever increasing regulation and little enforcement on employment rights and conditions.

    So more inspectors (with teeth) and less bullshit in the paperwork.

    This would reduce costs for the good employers and result in public court cases leading to fines and imprisonment for those who abuse - deliberately paying less than minimum wage, illegal employment etc etc.

    “Enforce the Factory Acts” - that should be popular with the Labour Party and a large chunk of the country.

    No performative cruelty to migrants required.
    This is an area you clearly know more about than I.

    I don't know what the "bullshit in the paperwork" is either - it sounds like a good idea so the question then becomes why haven't Governments of any stripe implemented what seems a sensible solution? I wonder if it's the legal aspect or a lack of manpower to carry out inspections and enforcements.

    To what extent, for example, would employers create fraudulent paperwork to show they were complying with regulations and how do you then prove they aren't? In addition, some "migrants" (whatever that term actually means in this context) are often frightened, desperate people with poor English language skills. They are exploited and whether you want to call it modern slavery or not, the truth is their "life" is on many levels, controlled.
    I don't know whether the law was changed after some controversy over the zealousness of the RSPCA, but I understand that they used to have the power to bring forward criminal prosecutions relating to abuse of animals.

    So one innovative solution would be to give trade unions the power to initiate criminal prosecutions of employers for transgressing employment rights and law. Then the government doesn't have to worry about finding the resources to enforce this area of law, and trade unions are motivated to do a thorough job of it.
    Private prosecutions for any crime are possible. You don’t need special powers.
    Betting shops prosecuted fraudsters because the police were uninterested. Perhaps the supermarket chains could do something similar if they see shoplifting as anything more than a minor inconvenience.
    Private prosecutions are disliked by The System.

    I attended a community meeting where the police actually berated an org for doing private prosecutions.
    Well the alternative is how it works in South Africa, where businesses do their own version of law enforcement and revenue protection.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,127
    kinabalu said:

    The problem for Labour with the comparison is that it was pretty easy to identify what Truss had done wrong - she'd trashed the confidence of the bond market in Britain's willingness to repay its debts - and so her replacement could steady the ship by correcting that error.

    But Starmer has reached his depth of unpopularity by multiple routes. So his replacement, if one is produced by the Labour party, has to make a major policy correction across multiple fronts. And while it was clear that there was majority support among Tory MPs for at least aiming for sound money, it's not at all clear that there is support among Labour MPs for some of the changes that might be necessary. Whatever those might be. That opinions vary on what is required is also part of the problem.

    I think what's key is to assess (and the party will be doing exactly this) how the unpopularity of Keir Starmer is split across the following root causes:

    1. The public are not seeing or feeling the improvements in living standards and public services and border control that they expected a change in government from Conservative to Labour would bring about. CHANGE. Where is it?

    2. The man himself is proving a turn-off to the public. They don't like him. There's no emotional connection. He can't sell either himself or a narrative of what his PMship is all about.

    A mix of the political and the personal if you like. Of course there's overlap between these two things but it's useful for punters to separate them when considering Labour’s GE prospects because the second is much the easier to fix (via change of leader).

    A key element in the current trend seems to me to be the whole budget farrago. It put on display for weeks absolute incompetence, and capped it all fatally by being, correctly and instantly, diagnosed as a budget to tax middling workers, whose income is not indexed linked, in order to index and increase payments to those who are not working.

    They have also failed completely in a bit of narrative which rarely comes to the top of the agenda but puzzles the thoughtful: If, as we are told, we have already borrowed too much, why are we borrowing more?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 27,149
    edited 11:00AM
    kle4 said:

    Just going into that new Avatar movie for about 8 hours, it must be bombing as theyre only doing like 5 screenings a day.

    It has to date earned over half a billion dollars worldwide. I know it's not as good as the latter two (allegedly?) but you have to hit the bloody thing with a stick to even slow it down. People apparently like seeing skinny blue elfs doing some whale-bothering whilst praising Eywa or whoever.

    https://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Avatar-Fire-and-Ash-(2025)#tab=box-office
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,865
    HYUFD said:

    Truss is right that Starmer is an unpopular PM.

    What will encourage Starmer though is that on a forced choice voters prefer him to Farage as PM by 57% to 43% on a new poll. So what may still save him is FPTP tactical voting to stop Farage and the divide on the right, as Kemi by contrast is preferred by voters over Starmer by 52% to 48% in the same Ashcroft poll

    https://bsky.app/profile/rentouljohn.bsky.social/post/3majmkgfwi22c

    Farage probably cockblocks Kemi and ensures we get a second term of a diabolical Labour government.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 27,149
    viewcode said:

    kle4 said:

    Just going into that new Avatar movie for about 8 hours, it must be bombing as theyre only doing like 5 screenings a day.

    It has to date earned over half a billion dollars worldwide. I know it's not as good as the latter two (allegedly?) but you have to hit the bloody thing with a stick to even slow it down. People apparently like seeing skinny blue elfs doing some whale-bothering whilst praising Eywa or whoever.

    https://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Avatar-Fire-and-Ash-(2025)#tab=box-office
    I saw Avatar 1. It was OK. I have no pressing need to see 2 or 3. I am glad to see Stephen Whatsit getting late-career recognition but that's about it.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,865

    Good morning and seasons greetings to all.

    Albanian criminal can stay in UK because his partner cannot speak Albanian https://share.google/HNqRcl07p0GsZX1IR

    This sort of bollocks decision by the tribunal plays into the hands of those who believe the Human rights act needs reviewing.

    The decision isn't just bollocks its effing ludicrous.

    I can't read the article but it seems the premise is that unless conditions are essentially perfect in all regards, with no grounds for appeal, you don't get deported.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,856
    edited 11:09AM

    kinabalu said:

    The problem for Labour with the comparison is that it was pretty easy to identify what Truss had done wrong - she'd trashed the confidence of the bond market in Britain's willingness to repay its debts - and so her replacement could steady the ship by correcting that error.

    But Starmer has reached his depth of unpopularity by multiple routes. So his replacement, if one is produced by the Labour party, has to make a major policy correction across multiple fronts. And while it was clear that there was majority support among Tory MPs for at least aiming for sound money, it's not at all clear that there is support among Labour MPs for some of the changes that might be necessary. Whatever those might be. That opinions vary on what is required is also part of the problem.

    I think what's key is to assess (and the party will be doing exactly this) how the unpopularity of Keir Starmer is split across the following root causes:

    1. The public are not seeing or feeling the improvements in living standards and public services and border control that they expected a change in government from Conservative to Labour would bring about. CHANGE. Where is it?

    2. The man himself is proving a turn-off to the public. They don't like him. There's no emotional connection. He can't sell either himself or a narrative of what his PMship is all about.

    A mix of the political and the personal if you like. Of course there's overlap between these two things but it's useful for punters to separate them when considering Labour’s GE prospects because the second is much the easier to fix (via change of leader).
    I think the two are connected.

    Despite occasional outbursts to the contrary I think most people recognise that they would be rubbish at being PM and so they're happy that someone else is doing the job, on the proviso that that person knows what they are doing. Starmer scores highly on "not having an effing clue" and that creates resentment.

    After all, I could make a horlicks of being PM at least as well as Starmer, so what's the point of him?
    I have a hypothesis that his response to the early freebies media stories are what did for him far more than WFA.

    A strict teacher in school is a good analogy.

    Our views of people who wield power over us are so subjective and highly susceptible to confirmation bias. Starmer's election campaign was primarily 'we'll be better than the Tories because we aren't secretly having parties and bunging our mates cash'. The public bought this, just as an unruly Y9 class will buy into a strict new teacher laying down the law.

    But in both cases there is an undercurrent of latent resentment and mistrust: 'everyone says that in the hectoring tone that you're currently using, most people are lying'. So it only takes a little slip (free glasses) for the resentful population/class to stop taking their medicine. And the rebellion, when it comes, is all the more fierce because people felt duped into thinking this teacher/PM might have been different.

    Once this rebellion comes, even sensible policies like WFA are subject to the confirmation bias that the government introducing them is incompetent and 'just like the rest', and so people are looking to pick holes in it, rather than rooting for success.

    (FWiW I do think Starmer is in a different league in terms of integrity than Truss or Johnson. But I have long since learnt that I am not often in tune with the British public, even less so when filtered through the British media)
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,865
    Sean_F said:

    Good morning and seasons greetings to all.

    Albanian criminal can stay in UK because his partner cannot speak Albanian https://share.google/HNqRcl07p0GsZX1IR

    This sort of bollocks decision by the tribunal plays into the hands of those who believe the Human rights act needs reviewing.

    The decision isn't just bollocks its effing ludicrous.

    She could learn Albanian.
    And, I expect plenty of Albanians speak English well enough.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,915
    edited 11:12AM

    Good morning and seasons greetings to all.

    Albanian criminal can stay in UK because his partner cannot speak Albanian https://share.google/HNqRcl07p0GsZX1IR

    This sort of bollocks decision by the tribunal plays into the hands of those who believe the Human rights act needs reviewing.

    The decision isn't just bollocks its effing ludicrous.

    I can't read the article but it seems the premise is that unless conditions are essentially perfect in all regards, with no grounds for appeal, you don't get deported.
    It should be entirely the other way around.

    You go from prison straight to the airport, and can then appeal from abroad at your own expense to be allowed back in. Most countries work like this.

    Meanwhile it’s in practice impossible to deport anyone, and the PM is over the moon at getting this Alaa guy back from Egypt who’s probably going to be at the next dodgy “Palestine” protest.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,127

    My son is 18 today. How is it I am this old?

    Hardy captures it:

    Time's unflinching rigour,
    In mindless rote,


    My eldest is 40.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 132,287
    maxh said:

    kinabalu said:

    The problem for Labour with the comparison is that it was pretty easy to identify what Truss had done wrong - she'd trashed the confidence of the bond market in Britain's willingness to repay its debts - and so her replacement could steady the ship by correcting that error.

    But Starmer has reached his depth of unpopularity by multiple routes. So his replacement, if one is produced by the Labour party, has to make a major policy correction across multiple fronts. And while it was clear that there was majority support among Tory MPs for at least aiming for sound money, it's not at all clear that there is support among Labour MPs for some of the changes that might be necessary. Whatever those might be. That opinions vary on what is required is also part of the problem.

    I think what's key is to assess (and the party will be doing exactly this) how the unpopularity of Keir Starmer is split across the following root causes:

    1. The public are not seeing or feeling the improvements in living standards and public services and border control that they expected a change in government from Conservative to Labour would bring about. CHANGE. Where is it?

    2. The man himself is proving a turn-off to the public. They don't like him. There's no emotional connection. He can't sell either himself or a narrative of what his PMship is all about.

    A mix of the political and the personal if you like. Of course there's overlap between these two things but it's useful for punters to separate them when considering Labour’s GE prospects because the second is much the easier to fix (via change of leader).
    I think the two are connected.

    Despite occasional outbursts to the contrary I think most people recognise that they would be rubbish at being PM and so they're happy that someone else is doing the job, on the proviso that that person knows what they are doing. Starmer scores highly on "not having an effing clue" and that creates resentment.

    After all, I could make a horlicks of being PM at least as well as Starmer, so what's the point of him?
    I have a hypothesis that his response to the early freebies media stories are what did for him far more than WFA.

    A strict teacher in school is a good analogy.

    Our views of people who wield power over us are so subjective and highly susceptible to confirmation bias. Starmer's election campaign was primarily 'we'll be better than the Tories because we aren't secretly having parties and bunging our mates cash'. The public bought this, just as an unruly Y9 class will buy into a strict new teacher laying down the law.

    But in both cases there is an undercurrent of latent resentment and mistrust: 'everyone says that in the hectoring tone that you're currently using, most people are lying'. So it only takes a little slip (free glasses) for the resentful population/class to stop taking their medicine. And the rebellion, when it comes, is all the more fierce because people felt duped into thinking this teacher/PM might have been different.

    Once this rebellion comes, even sensible policies like WFA are subject to the confirmation bias that the government introducing them is incompetent and 'just like the rest'.

    (FWiW I do think Starmer is in a different league in terms of integrity than Truss or Johnson. But I have long since learnt that I am not often in tune with the British public, even less so when filtered through the British media)
    Even kids tend to prefer a charismatic and inspiring teacher, in PM terms a Boris or Blair, to a strict disciplinarian. To maintain control the strict disciplinarian teacher has to keep respect and authority, in PM terms Thatcher until the poll tax. Starmer though has already lost his respect and authority and he never had charisma anyway
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,574

    kinabalu said:

    The problem for Labour with the comparison is that it was pretty easy to identify what Truss had done wrong - she'd trashed the confidence of the bond market in Britain's willingness to repay its debts - and so her replacement could steady the ship by correcting that error.

    But Starmer has reached his depth of unpopularity by multiple routes. So his replacement, if one is produced by the Labour party, has to make a major policy correction across multiple fronts. And while it was clear that there was majority support among Tory MPs for at least aiming for sound money, it's not at all clear that there is support among Labour MPs for some of the changes that might be necessary. Whatever those might be. That opinions vary on what is required is also part of the problem.

    I think what's key is to assess (and the party will be doing exactly this) how the unpopularity of Keir Starmer is split across the following root causes:

    1. The public are not seeing or feeling the improvements in living standards and public services and border control that they expected a change in government from Conservative to Labour would bring about. CHANGE. Where is it?

    2. The man himself is proving a turn-off to the public. They don't like him. There's no emotional connection. He can't sell either himself or a narrative of what his PMship is all about.

    A mix of the political and the personal if you like. Of course there's overlap between these two things but it's useful for punters to separate them when considering Labour’s GE prospects because the second is much the easier to fix (via change of leader).
    I think the two are connected.

    Despite occasional outbursts to the contrary I think most people recognise that they would be rubbish at being PM and so they're happy that someone else is doing the job, on the proviso that that person knows what they are doing. Starmer scores highly on "not having an effing clue" and that creates resentment.

    After all, I could make a horlicks of being PM at least as well as Starmer, so what's the point of him?
    Yes, an overlap, as I said. But there's no way his cratered ratings (the worst in recorded history) are fully explained by the public coming to a detached, evidence-based judgement that he "doesn't have a clue". There's something else going on and that's his inability to connect. His persona. It's just not happening.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,615
    algarkirk said:

    My son is 18 today. How is it I am this old?

    Hardy captures it:

    Time's unflinching rigour,
    In mindless rote,


    My eldest is 40.
    Good morning

    My eldest is 60 in 2026
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,413

    My son is 18 today. How is it I am this old?

    Stop moaning and buy him a Tesla.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 132,287

    HYUFD said:

    Truss is right that Starmer is an unpopular PM.

    What will encourage Starmer though is that on a forced choice voters prefer him to Farage as PM by 57% to 43% on a new poll. So what may still save him is FPTP tactical voting to stop Farage and the divide on the right, as Kemi by contrast is preferred by voters over Starmer by 52% to 48% in the same Ashcroft poll

    https://bsky.app/profile/rentouljohn.bsky.social/post/3majmkgfwi22c

    Farage probably cockblocks Kemi and ensures we get a second term of a diabolical Labour government.
    It would likely still be a hung parliament but yes without Farage the Tories might be heading for a majority. With Farage, anti Reform tactical voting could keep Labour in government
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,484
    Sandpit said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Truss is right that Starmer is an unpopular PM.

    What will encourage Starmer though is that on a forced choice voters prefer him to Farage as PM by 57% to 43% on a new poll. So what may still save him is FPTP tactical voting to stop Farage and the divide on the right, as Kemi by contrast is preferred by voters over Starmer by 52% to 48% in the same Ashcroft poll

    https://bsky.app/profile/rentouljohn.bsky.social/post/3majmkgfwi22c

    This is why Badenoch's strategic attitude to Farage and Reform is so important and I've yet to hear anyone from the Conservative (or ex-Conservative side) offer a response to whether the Conservatives under Badenoch should move closer to Reform (as a potential Government coalition partner) or remain distinct from Reform and risk becoming further marginalised?
    The sensible answer to Reform would be to develop policies to deal with the problems that are not Reform “solutions”.

    Starmer has demonstrated that cosplaying Reform doesn’t work.

    For example, a Labour government could change the culture from ever increasing regulation and little enforcement on employment rights and conditions.

    So more inspectors (with teeth) and less bullshit in the paperwork.

    This would reduce costs for the good employers and result in public court cases leading to fines and imprisonment for those who abuse - deliberately paying less than minimum wage, illegal employment etc etc.

    “Enforce the Factory Acts” - that should be popular with the Labour Party and a large chunk of the country.

    No performative cruelty to migrants required.
    This is an area you clearly know more about than I.

    I don't know what the "bullshit in the paperwork" is either - it sounds like a good idea so the question then becomes why haven't Governments of any stripe implemented what seems a sensible solution? I wonder if it's the legal aspect or a lack of manpower to carry out inspections and enforcements.

    To what extent, for example, would employers create fraudulent paperwork to show they were complying with regulations and how do you then prove they aren't? In addition, some "migrants" (whatever that term actually means in this context) are often frightened, desperate people with poor English language skills. They are exploited and whether you want to call it modern slavery or not, the truth is their "life" is on many levels, controlled.
    I don't know whether the law was changed after some controversy over the zealousness of the RSPCA, but I understand that they used to have the power to bring forward criminal prosecutions relating to abuse of animals.

    So one innovative solution would be to give trade unions the power to initiate criminal prosecutions of employers for transgressing employment rights and law. Then the government doesn't have to worry about finding the resources to enforce this area of law, and trade unions are motivated to do a thorough job of it.
    Private prosecutions for any crime are possible. You don’t need special powers.
    Betting shops prosecuted fraudsters because the police were uninterested. Perhaps the supermarket chains could do something similar if they see shoplifting as anything more than a minor inconvenience.
    Private prosecutions are disliked by The System.

    I attended a community meeting where the police actually berated an org for doing private prosecutions.
    Well the alternative is how it works in South Africa, where businesses do their own version of law enforcement and revenue protection.
    Did some scuba diving with (among others) a South African chap who loved his job. Delivering luxury cars to buyers in Johannesburg.

    Always avoided buddying with him. Adrenaline seeking is not optimal for thorough equipment checks.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,856
    HYUFD said:

    maxh said:

    kinabalu said:

    The problem for Labour with the comparison is that it was pretty easy to identify what Truss had done wrong - she'd trashed the confidence of the bond market in Britain's willingness to repay its debts - and so her replacement could steady the ship by correcting that error.

    But Starmer has reached his depth of unpopularity by multiple routes. So his replacement, if one is produced by the Labour party, has to make a major policy correction across multiple fronts. And while it was clear that there was majority support among Tory MPs for at least aiming for sound money, it's not at all clear that there is support among Labour MPs for some of the changes that might be necessary. Whatever those might be. That opinions vary on what is required is also part of the problem.

    I think what's key is to assess (and the party will be doing exactly this) how the unpopularity of Keir Starmer is split across the following root causes:

    1. The public are not seeing or feeling the improvements in living standards and public services and border control that they expected a change in government from Conservative to Labour would bring about. CHANGE. Where is it?

    2. The man himself is proving a turn-off to the public. They don't like him. There's no emotional connection. He can't sell either himself or a narrative of what his PMship is all about.

    A mix of the political and the personal if you like. Of course there's overlap between these two things but it's useful for punters to separate them when considering Labour’s GE prospects because the second is much the easier to fix (via change of leader).
    I think the two are connected.

    Despite occasional outbursts to the contrary I think most people recognise that they would be rubbish at being PM and so they're happy that someone else is doing the job, on the proviso that that person knows what they are doing. Starmer scores highly on "not having an effing clue" and that creates resentment.

    After all, I could make a horlicks of being PM at least as well as Starmer, so what's the point of him?
    I have a hypothesis that his response to the early freebies media stories are what did for him far more than WFA.

    A strict teacher in school is a good analogy.

    Our views of people who wield power over us are so subjective and highly susceptible to confirmation bias. Starmer's election campaign was primarily 'we'll be better than the Tories because we aren't secretly having parties and bunging our mates cash'. The public bought this, just as an unruly Y9 class will buy into a strict new teacher laying down the law.

    But in both cases there is an undercurrent of latent resentment and mistrust: 'everyone says that in the hectoring tone that you're currently using, most people are lying'. So it only takes a little slip (free glasses) for the resentful population/class to stop taking their medicine. And the rebellion, when it comes, is all the more fierce because people felt duped into thinking this teacher/PM might have been different.

    Once this rebellion comes, even sensible policies like WFA are subject to the confirmation bias that the government introducing them is incompetent and 'just like the rest'.

    (FWiW I do think Starmer is in a different league in terms of integrity than Truss or Johnson. But I have long since learnt that I am not often in tune with the British public, even less so when filtered through the British media)
    Even kids tend to prefer a charismatic and inspiring teacher, in PM terms a Boris or Blair, to a strict disciplinarian. To maintain control the strict disciplinarian teacher has to keep respect and authority, in PM terms Thatcher until the poll tax. Starmer though has already lost his respect and authority and he never had charisma anyway
    Your middle sentence says far more succinctly what I was trying to convey. Thanks.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,944
    stodge said:



    The "gap year" recruitment idea for the armed forces is interesting - my gap year wasn't spent in far flung destinations but working for Mecca Bookmakers so glamourous, it wasn't. I suspect it would look good on the CV and better than saying I went to Thailand or Australia or even Mecca Bookmakers in Panton Street.

    They have a similar program in Australia and it works well. However, it's very expensive to do it properly as these people need a lot of supervision and they can only be used in a very limited number of roles. The UK MoD will probably just use them as cheap labour to do photocopying or something.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,574
    algarkirk said:

    kinabalu said:

    The problem for Labour with the comparison is that it was pretty easy to identify what Truss had done wrong - she'd trashed the confidence of the bond market in Britain's willingness to repay its debts - and so her replacement could steady the ship by correcting that error.

    But Starmer has reached his depth of unpopularity by multiple routes. So his replacement, if one is produced by the Labour party, has to make a major policy correction across multiple fronts. And while it was clear that there was majority support among Tory MPs for at least aiming for sound money, it's not at all clear that there is support among Labour MPs for some of the changes that might be necessary. Whatever those might be. That opinions vary on what is required is also part of the problem.

    I think what's key is to assess (and the party will be doing exactly this) how the unpopularity of Keir Starmer is split across the following root causes:

    1. The public are not seeing or feeling the improvements in living standards and public services and border control that they expected a change in government from Conservative to Labour would bring about. CHANGE. Where is it?

    2. The man himself is proving a turn-off to the public. They don't like him. There's no emotional connection. He can't sell either himself or a narrative of what his PMship is all about.

    A mix of the political and the personal if you like. Of course there's overlap between these two things but it's useful for punters to separate them when considering Labour’s GE prospects because the second is much the easier to fix (via change of leader).
    A key element in the current trend seems to me to be the whole budget farrago. It put on display for weeks absolute incompetence, and capped it all fatally by being, correctly and instantly, diagnosed as a budget to tax middling workers, whose income is not indexed linked, in order to index and increase payments to those who are not working.

    They have also failed completely in a bit of narrative which rarely comes to the top of the agenda but puzzles the thoughtful: If, as we are told, we have already borrowed too much, why are we borrowing more?
    Agree on the budget. The run-up to it was overthought and counterproductive and the package itself lacked a narrative. That void then invites old school tory nonsense like "taxing workers to pay shirkers".
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,574

    HYUFD said:

    Truss is right that Starmer is an unpopular PM.

    What will encourage Starmer though is that on a forced choice voters prefer him to Farage as PM by 57% to 43% on a new poll. So what may still save him is FPTP tactical voting to stop Farage and the divide on the right, as Kemi by contrast is preferred by voters over Starmer by 52% to 48% in the same Ashcroft poll

    https://bsky.app/profile/rentouljohn.bsky.social/post/3majmkgfwi22c

    Farage probably cockblocks Kemi and ensures we get a second term of a diabolical Labour government.
    "Cockblock" is one of your favourite words, isn't it. It's like me and "reductive". I've kicked it now but boy it took an effort.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,283
    edited 11:34AM

    algarkirk said:

    My son is 18 today. How is it I am this old?

    Hardy captures it:

    Time's unflinching rigour,
    In mindless rote,


    My eldest is 40.
    Good morning

    My eldest is 60 in 2026
    Our eldest grandchild is 36. Very solicitous about the problems this set of grandparents have acquired/developed.

    On another topic, my wife visited the hairdresser just before Christmas and in course of discussion expressed concerns that our Bangkok family might not be able to visit because of the border war there.
    "Don't worry`" the hairdresser old her "Trump will sort it; he's don it once and he'll do it again!"
    My wife was more than a little surprised and asked if the hairdresser lady thought highly of Trump. And she apparently did. Seriously.
  • TazTaz Posts: 23,325

    Roger said:

    Good morning and seasons greetings to all.

    Albanian criminal can stay in UK because his partner cannot speak Albanian https://share.google/HNqRcl07p0GsZX1IR

    This sort of bollocks decision by the tribunal plays into the hands of those who believe the Human rights act needs reviewing.

    The decision isn't just bollocks its effing ludicrous.

    Don't you find it more worrying that in a country of 68 million people one of our leading newspapers gives half a page to a frankly ridiculous story just to raise the blood pressure of some silly old codgers who would otherwise be enjoying their boxing day.
    No Roger .but it does show your moronic train of thought if you think it should be ignored.
    Wait til you see his thoughts on the Epping hotel sex criminal !
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,519
    algarkirk said:

    My son is 18 today. How is it I am this old?

    Hardy captures it:

    Time's unflinching rigour,
    In mindless rote,


    My eldest is 40.
    On the appropriate birthday, my mother asked her mother, 'How does it feel to have an OAP for a daughter, mother?'
  • TazTaz Posts: 23,325

    Good morning and seasons greetings to all.

    Albanian criminal can stay in UK because his partner cannot speak Albanian https://share.google/HNqRcl07p0GsZX1IR

    This sort of bollocks decision by the tribunal plays into the hands of those who believe the Human rights act needs reviewing.

    The decision isn't just bollocks its effing ludicrous.

    I can't read the article but it seems the premise is that unless conditions are essentially perfect in all regards, with no grounds for appeal, you don't get deported.
    The system working as intended then.

    Politicians spoute shite about stopping this. They could. They never do.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,966
    Dura_Ace said:

    stodge said:



    The "gap year" recruitment idea for the armed forces is interesting - my gap year wasn't spent in far flung destinations but working for Mecca Bookmakers so glamourous, it wasn't. I suspect it would look good on the CV and better than saying I went to Thailand or Australia or even Mecca Bookmakers in Panton Street.

    They have a similar program in Australia and it works well. However, it's very expensive to do it properly as these people need a lot of supervision and they can only be used in a very limited number of roles. The UK MoD will probably just use them as cheap labour to do photocopying or something.
    I’ve always been a fan of the idea, not so much with what they can do on a day to day basis (maybe be used for guard, sentry duty to free up other soldiers?) but more on the basis of building up a large number over time of people who have already learned the basics of shooting and infantry tactics so if there is a situation in the future where the country had to mobilise a lot of people will need refreshers rather than training from scratch which is surely a good thing?

    You aren’t going to have millions of Marines in cold storage but the military would have lists of people with various levels of training and, hopefully, identified skill sets where they can be fast-tracked in an emergency.

    Also it might get people to try it as only a short period who then find that it’s the life for them and they commit which would help the recruitment situation.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,718

    Sean_F said:

    Good morning and seasons greetings to all.

    Albanian criminal can stay in UK because his partner cannot speak Albanian https://share.google/HNqRcl07p0GsZX1IR

    This sort of bollocks decision by the tribunal plays into the hands of those who believe the Human rights act needs reviewing.

    The decision isn't just bollocks its effing ludicrous.

    She could learn Albanian.
    And, I expect plenty of Albanians speak English well enough.
    They do, a lot have, after all, lived in the UK.

    Alternatively, as her partner is a criminal, we should expect her to disown him. She probably know everything he was up to and didn't shop him, she is therefore a criminal herself
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,718
    Taz said:

    Good morning and seasons greetings to all.

    Albanian criminal can stay in UK because his partner cannot speak Albanian https://share.google/HNqRcl07p0GsZX1IR

    This sort of bollocks decision by the tribunal plays into the hands of those who believe the Human rights act needs reviewing.

    The decision isn't just bollocks its effing ludicrous.

    I can't read the article but it seems the premise is that unless conditions are essentially perfect in all regards, with no grounds for appeal, you don't get deported.
    The system working as intended then.

    Politicians spoute shite about stopping this. They could. They never do.
    If I was PM, I'd read Private Eye every fortnight, drag the appropriate ministers and civil servants in, and tell them to f***ing sort it out
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 24,062

    algarkirk said:

    My son is 18 today. How is it I am this old?

    Hardy captures it:

    Time's unflinching rigour,
    In mindless rote,


    My eldest is 40.
    Good morning

    My eldest is 60 in 2026
    Our eldest grandchild is 36. Very solicitous about the problems this set of grandparents have acquired/developed.

    On another topic, my wife visited the hairdresser just before Christmas and in course of discussion expressed concerns that our Bangkok family might not be able to visit because of the border war there.
    "Don't worry`" the hairdresser old her "Trump will sort it; he's don it once and he'll do it again!"
    My wife was more than a little surprised and asked if the hairdresser lady thought highly of Trump. And she apparently did. Seriously.
    She shouldn't be trusted with scissors.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,283

    algarkirk said:

    My son is 18 today. How is it I am this old?

    Hardy captures it:

    Time's unflinching rigour,
    In mindless rote,


    My eldest is 40.
    Good morning

    My eldest is 60 in 2026
    Our eldest grandchild is 36. Very solicitous about the problems this set of grandparents have acquired/developed.

    On another topic, my wife visited the hairdresser just before Christmas and in course of discussion expressed concerns that our Bangkok family might not be able to visit because of the border war there.
    "Don't worry`" the hairdresser old her "Trump will sort it; he's don it once and he'll do it again!"
    My wife was more than a little surprised and asked if the hairdresser lady thought highly of Trump. And she apparently did. Seriously.
    She shouldn't be trusted with scissors.
    My view, too, but my wife likes the way she manages her hair. She also feels sorry for her; the hairdresser lady has problems with a sick husband.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,584
    boulay said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    stodge said:



    The "gap year" recruitment idea for the armed forces is interesting - my gap year wasn't spent in far flung destinations but working for Mecca Bookmakers so glamourous, it wasn't. I suspect it would look good on the CV and better than saying I went to Thailand or Australia or even Mecca Bookmakers in Panton Street.

    They have a similar program in Australia and it works well. However, it's very expensive to do it properly as these people need a lot of supervision and they can only be used in a very limited number of roles. The UK MoD will probably just use them as cheap labour to do photocopying or something.
    I’ve always been a fan of the idea, not so much with what they can do on a day to day basis (maybe be used for guard, sentry duty to free up other soldiers?) but more on the basis of building up a large number over time of people who have already learned the basics of shooting and infantry tactics so if there is a situation in the future where the country had to mobilise a lot of people will need refreshers rather than training from scratch which is surely a good thing?

    You aren’t going to have millions of Marines in cold storage but the military would have lists of people with various levels of training and, hopefully, identified skill sets where they can be fast-tracked in an emergency.

    Also it might get people to try it as only a short period who then find that it’s the life for them and they commit which would help the recruitment situation.
    The scheme sounds interesting.

    I would also like to see something between the French pompiers and the TA - an army service that trained and sat within the forces but had a day-to-day role of helping civilians - flood assistance, cat up a tree, perhaps some security stuff to deal with the crime wave, perhaps some deportation duties.

    Our police service and possibly other emergency services (Grenfell did not show the Fire service in a good light) are growing increasingly complacent and in some instances anti the public they serve. There are deep philosophical reasons for this, but another one is simply that they have a monopoly on responding to emergencies. If they lost this monopoly, and there was an effective market in such services (not a free market, but a market nonetheless), and people could say 'screw the police I'm calling the army in', that would result in competition, and significant improvements in law and order.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,120
    Dura_Ace said:

    stodge said:



    The "gap year" recruitment idea for the armed forces is interesting - my gap year wasn't spent in far flung destinations but working for Mecca Bookmakers so glamourous, it wasn't. I suspect it would look good on the CV and better than saying I went to Thailand or Australia or even Mecca Bookmakers in Panton Street.

    They have a similar program in Australia and it works well. However, it's very expensive to do it properly as these people need a lot of supervision and they can only be used in a very limited number of roles. The UK MoD will probably just use them as cheap labour to do photocopying or something.
    Photocopying a bit technologically advanced, typing memos on an electric typewriter using carbon paper more likely, then faxing for the brighter ones.
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