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The year according to YouGov – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,849
edited 7:33AM in General
The year according to YouGov – politicalbetting.com

?/ How has political opinion changed over 2025?In voting intention, Labour have made the biggest losses, while the Greens have gained most, and Reform UK have established a clear leadRef: 28% (+3 from 12-13 Jan)Lab: 18% (-8)Grn: 17% (+9)Con: 17% (-5)LD: 14% (=)yougov.co.uk/politics/art…

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Comments

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 36,431
    Is that a first again?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,889

    Is that a first again?

    Zeroth, I think you’ll find.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,501
    edited 7:41AM
    FPT

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    England’s Head drop as match slips away.

    (Although truthfully it slipped away with yet another dozy batting performance in the first innings.)

    Wasn't that bad, Doc. The basic problem is that they are not good enough, and it's difficult to do much about that.
    Other than pick better players, of course.
    Assuming we have some, how would we know? Nobody plays red ball cricket these days.
    It’s hardly a stretch to say that any one of Hameed, Compton, Haines, Charlesworth or Lees would be a better option at the top of the order than Crawley (or indeed one of them also replacing Pope).

    It’s not difficult to imagine Foakes would be a better keeper than Smith, or that James Rew would score as many runs as Smith does as well as being a better keeper.

    It’s not daft to suggest Potts would take more wickets and offer more control than Carse, or Leach be a better option than Jacks or Bashir with the ball. True, he might not take wickets but nor do they, and he wouldn’t leak runs at such a rate.

    And yet they are shoved out of the way for players who play ‘the Bazball way.’

    I do not think they would necessarily win the Ashes in Australia, but nor would they endlessly self-destruct as this lot have repeatedly over the last twelve months.

    Which tells me there is something fundamentally wrong with the national selectors that needs changing.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,903
    So Badenoch is the only leader whose reputatin hasn't been damaged by 2025?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,903
    Not quite sure how Badenoch's "standing with Labour voters" counts for much when there are now so few Labour voters? (9 of them in the Cornish by-election overnight...)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,501

    So Badenoch is the only leader whose reputatin hasn't been damaged by 2025?

    Rishi Sunak?

    I mean, you may be referring to incumbent leaders, but as Massive and Lettuce Lady continue to self destruct in ways that would make Ollie Pope blush for him not to have looked like more of a tosser than he did is surely some achievement.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 26,090
    The government that claims it is cutting out national debt is no borrowing more than ever

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/dec/19/uk-government-borrowing-november-rachel-reeves-budget-economy
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,903
    Looking at those numbers, the start of 2026 has to be dominated by Labour thinking "We have to get rid of Starmer and Reeves..."

    Or else a rousing New Year's Eve chorus of D:Ream

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6QhAZckY8w
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 45,497

    The government that claims it is cutting out national debt is no borrowing more than ever

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/dec/19/uk-government-borrowing-november-rachel-reeves-budget-economy

    You surprise me Alan
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 26,090
    malcolmg said:

    The government that claims it is cutting out national debt is no borrowing more than ever

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/dec/19/uk-government-borrowing-november-rachel-reeves-budget-economy

    You surprise me Alan
    This lot truly are a bunch of crooks.

    They dosh up their mates and make the rest of us foot the bill.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,290

    The government that claims it is cutting out national debt is no borrowing more than ever

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/dec/19/uk-government-borrowing-november-rachel-reeves-budget-economy

    Hmmm.

    Figures from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) showed public sector net borrowing – the difference between spending and income – was £11.7bn last month, £1.9bn less than in the same month a year earlier.

  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 7,156

    The government that claims it is cutting out national debt is no borrowing more than ever

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/dec/19/uk-government-borrowing-november-rachel-reeves-budget-economy

    When did “national debt” start to mean “debt as a percentage of gdp in five years time if the growth and spending forecasts are somehow accurate”?

    I remember when it meant debt, and then when reducing the deficit confused things for some
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,450

    Not quite sure how Badenoch's "standing with Labour voters" counts for much when there are now so few Labour voters? (9 of them in the Cornish by-election overnight...)

    The question is about 2024 (not current) Labour voters.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 26,090
    edited 8:04AM
    MattW said:

    The government that claims it is cutting out national debt is no borrowing more than ever

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/dec/19/uk-government-borrowing-november-rachel-reeves-budget-economy

    Hmmm.

    Figures from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) showed public sector net borrowing – the difference between spending and income – was £11.7bn last month, £1.9bn less than in the same month a year earlier.

    Yes I was expecting this twaddle from a twat who cant look at the full picture. We are borrowing loads more and one month in isolation means little. Overall this government has no control of its finances.

    I note how you omitted the expected spending was £10bn but was actually £11.9bn.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,450

    So Badenoch is the only leader whose reputatin hasn't been damaged by 2025?

    Though her party has fallen further behind, dropping 5 points over the year.

    By their fruits shall ye know them.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,903
    Foxy said:

    Not quite sure how Badenoch's "standing with Labour voters" counts for much when there are now so few Labour voters? (9 of them in the Cornish by-election overnight...)

    The question is about 2024 (not current) Labour voters.
    Which is definitely a WTF? metric. Like asking the voting intentions of Betamax owners...
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 45,497

    MattW said:

    The government that claims it is cutting out national debt is no borrowing more than ever

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/dec/19/uk-government-borrowing-november-rachel-reeves-budget-economy

    Hmmm.

    Figures from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) showed public sector net borrowing – the difference between spending and income – was £11.7bn last month, £1.9bn less than in the same month a year earlier.

    Yes I was expecting this twaddle from a twat who cant look at the full picture. We are borrowing loads more and one month in isolation means little. Overall this government has no control of its finances.

    I note how you omitted the expected spending was £10bn but was actually £11.9bn.
    Building a new black hole for her next tax grab, more free benefits for all
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,569
    ydoethur said:

    FPT

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    England’s Head drop as match slips away.

    (Although truthfully it slipped away with yet another dozy batting performance in the first innings.)

    Wasn't that bad, Doc. The basic problem is that they are not good enough, and it's difficult to do much about that.
    Other than pick better players, of course.
    Assuming we have some, how would we know? Nobody plays red ball cricket these days.
    It’s hardly a stretch to say that any one of Hameed, Compton, Haines, Charlesworth or Lees would be a better option at the top of the order than Crawley (or indeed one of them also replacing Pope).

    It’s not difficult to imagine Foakes would be a better keeper than Smith, or that James Rew would score as many runs as Smith does as well as being a better keeper.

    It’s not daft to suggest Potts would take more wickets and offer more control than Carse, or Leach be a better option than Jacks or Bashir with the ball. True, he might not take wickets but nor do they, and he wouldn’t leak runs at such a rate.

    And yet they are shoved out of the way for players who play ‘the Bazball way.’

    I do not think they would necessarily win the Ashes in Australia, but nor would they endlessly self-destruct as this lot have repeatedly over the last twelve months.

    Which tells me there is something fundamentally wrong with the national selectors that needs changing.
    Bashir has potential, I think ?
    And you can hardly judge him for not performing when he hasn't been picked (absurdly not for this wicket).
    You don't write off promising spinners in they're early twenties.

    Jacks rather more evidently doesn't have it (though it's instructive to note that he's bowled 39 overs in this test - and a mere 259 in red ball cricket in the last three years).

    Enjoy the pictures at the top of this article.
    https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/ashes-tours-can-end-careers-ollie-pope-could-be-next-1516133
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,586
    edited 8:11AM
    FPT
    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    Breaking - having said, when it postponed the new mayoral elections, that council elections in those areas would still be going ahead in May, the government has now asked all councils in areas affected by local government re-organisation whether this decision should be revisited, and elections postponed after all.

    So it's down to the Councils themselves to set the agenda, again !
    My take is that the government has belatedly realised what should have been (and was) obvious, that elections to councils about to be abolished makes no sense, and elections to the new forming-councils will be needed well in advance of the end of the next four year cycle - but doesn't want the blame for u-turning and cancelling yet another set of elections, so is trying to pass the buck by getting the councils to ask for postponement.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 26,090
    malcolmg said:

    MattW said:

    The government that claims it is cutting out national debt is no borrowing more than ever

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/dec/19/uk-government-borrowing-november-rachel-reeves-budget-economy

    Hmmm.

    Figures from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) showed public sector net borrowing – the difference between spending and income – was £11.7bn last month, £1.9bn less than in the same month a year earlier.

    Yes I was expecting this twaddle from a twat who cant look at the full picture. We are borrowing loads more and one month in isolation means little. Overall this government has no control of its finances.

    I note how you omitted the expected spending was £10bn but was actually £11.9bn.
    Building a new black hole for her next tax grab, more free benefits for all
    There will be new black hole next year, Reeves has no idea what she is doing. Her two big plays of creating growth and cutting debt have gone into reverse so its tax tax tax and spend spend spend
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,450
    The Green surge is the one that Yougov didn't really explore in this article, perhaps because Polanski only came to prominence mid year.

    Its obvious that while Badenoch continues to shed support to Farage, Polanski continues to gain supporters from Starmer. The Greens are where those former Labour voters have gone.

    Incidentally Polanski is also the most popular of the party leaders, albeit slightly negative and 49% not taking a view.

    I think there will be a lot of attention to the Greens in 2026, particularly they are likely to do well in the May elections in England.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,556
    Foxy said:

    The Green surge is the one that Yougov didn't really explore in this article, perhaps because Polanski only came to prominence mid year.

    Its obvious that while Badenoch continues to shed support to Farage, Polanski continues to gain supporters from Starmer. The Greens are where those former Labour voters have gone.

    Incidentally Polanski is also the most popular of the party leaders, albeit slightly negative and 49% not taking a view.

    I think there will be a lot of attention to the Greens in 2026, particularly they are likely to do well in the May elections in England.

    Good morning

    The Greens are a problem for the left including the lib dems but anyone who supports Polanski's promises is no better than those supporting Farage

    Both are extreme and incoherent
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,145
    edited 8:23AM

    The government that claims it is cutting out national debt is no borrowing more than ever

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/dec/19/uk-government-borrowing-november-rachel-reeves-budget-economy

    I was about to refer to the word 'subsidy' as the reason for all the government largesse. And for some reason the BeeGees song 'Tragedy' popped into my head. So far so good.

    Then I thought what if AI could replace the word 'tragedy' with 'subsidy' to produce alternate lyrics ... but WTAF. Here's the conversation with AI

    It's too long to produce here but if you'd like political parody complete with lyrics, stage direction and instructions for the movie video, here it is.

    https://www.perplexity.ai/search/yes-BSm1B4ZcSzWQtjao1DX5fg

    A shimmering 1970s disco aesthetic fused with a modern “financial empowerment” theme. Think glitter meets government grant, with tongue-in-cheek flair and plenty of sparkle.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,450

    Foxy said:

    Not quite sure how Badenoch's "standing with Labour voters" counts for much when there are now so few Labour voters? (9 of them in the Cornish by-election overnight...)

    The question is about 2024 (not current) Labour voters.
    Which is definitely a WTF? metric. Like asking the voting intentions of Betamax owners...
    I know that you want to depict the catastrophic Tory defeat of July 2024 as ancient history, but it is only 18 months ago.

    The Tories have gone backwards against a disasterously unpopular government, and are heading for another drubbing in the May elections.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,226
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    England’s Head drop as match slips away.

    (Although truthfully it slipped away with yet another dozy batting performance in the first innings.)

    Wasn't that bad, Doc. The basic problem is that they are not good enough, and it's difficult to do much about that.
    Other than pick better players, of course.
    Assuming we have some, how would we know? Nobody plays red ball cricket these days.
    It’s hardly a stretch to say that any one of Hameed, Compton, Haines, Charlesworth or Lees would be a better option at the top of the order than Crawley (or indeed one of them also replacing Pope).

    It’s not difficult to imagine Foakes would be a better keeper than Smith, or that James Rew would score as many runs as Smith does as well as being a better keeper.

    It’s not daft to suggest Potts would take more wickets and offer more control than Carse, or Leach be a better option than Jacks or Bashir with the ball. True, he might not take wickets but nor do they, and he wouldn’t leak runs at such a rate.

    And yet they are shoved out of the way for players who play ‘the Bazball way.’

    I do not think they would necessarily win the Ashes in Australia, but nor would they endlessly self-destruct as this lot have repeatedly over the last twelve months.

    Which tells me there is something fundamentally wrong with the national selectors that needs changing.
    Bashir has potential, I think ?
    And you can hardly judge him for not performing when he hasn't been picked (absurdly not for this wicket).
    You don't write off promising spinners in they're early twenties.

    Jacks rather more evidently doesn't have it (though it's instructive to note that he's bowled 39 overs in this test - and a mere 259 in red ball cricket in the last three years).

    Enjoy the pictures at the top of this article.
    https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/ashes-tours-can-end-careers-ollie-pope-could-be-next-1516133
    Surprised Rehan Ahmed wasn't brought along, clearly an upgrade on Jacks as a spinning all rounder. Giving him and Bashir opportunities to learn how to bowl in Australia would seem useful in the last couple of tests.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,450

    Foxy said:

    The Green surge is the one that Yougov didn't really explore in this article, perhaps because Polanski only came to prominence mid year.

    Its obvious that while Badenoch continues to shed support to Farage, Polanski continues to gain supporters from Starmer. The Greens are where those former Labour voters have gone.

    Incidentally Polanski is also the most popular of the party leaders, albeit slightly negative and 49% not taking a view.

    I think there will be a lot of attention to the Greens in 2026, particularly they are likely to do well in the May elections in England.

    Good morning

    The Greens are a problem for the left including the lib dems but anyone who supports Polanski's promises is no better than those supporting Farage

    Both are extreme and incoherent
    I dont expect The Only Tory in the PB Village to like Polanski or his policies, but certainly the story of the year politically is the Labour to Green swing over the year, which is double the size of the Con to Reform swing.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,226
    Battlebus said:

    The government that claims it is cutting out national debt is no borrowing more than ever

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/dec/19/uk-government-borrowing-november-rachel-reeves-budget-economy

    I was about to refer to the word 'subsidy' as the reason for all the government largesse. And for some reason the BeeGees song 'Tragedy' popped into my head. So far so good.

    Then I thought what if AI could replace the word 'tragedy' with 'subsidy' to produce alternate lyrics ... but WTAF. Here's the conversation with AI

    It's too long to produce here but if you'd like political parody complete with lyrics, stage direction and instructions for the movie video, here it is.

    https://www.perplexity.ai/search/yes-BSm1B4ZcSzWQtjao1DX5fg
    And this is what we are using 3% of the worlds energy for........in a climate crisis........
  • MelonBMelonB Posts: 16,567
    Foxy said:

    The Green surge is the one that Yougov didn't really explore in this article, perhaps because Polanski only came to prominence mid year.

    Its obvious that while Badenoch continues to shed support to Farage, Polanski continues to gain supporters from Starmer. The Greens are where those former Labour voters have gone.

    Incidentally Polanski is also the most popular of the party leaders, albeit slightly negative and 49% not taking a view.

    I think there will be a lot of attention to the Greens in 2026, particularly they are likely to do well in the May elections in England.

    They’re in a similar position to the Lib Dems in the 2005-2010 period, and Reform before the last election, gaining voter support while the government lose it. Unlike 2010 there won’t be a coalition to destroy them, so I could see Green riding high for some time to come. A bit of tactical drift back at the next GE but not enough to avoid serious damage to the Labour vote.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,226
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The Green surge is the one that Yougov didn't really explore in this article, perhaps because Polanski only came to prominence mid year.

    Its obvious that while Badenoch continues to shed support to Farage, Polanski continues to gain supporters from Starmer. The Greens are where those former Labour voters have gone.

    Incidentally Polanski is also the most popular of the party leaders, albeit slightly negative and 49% not taking a view.

    I think there will be a lot of attention to the Greens in 2026, particularly they are likely to do well in the May elections in England.

    Good morning

    The Greens are a problem for the left including the lib dems but anyone who supports Polanski's promises is no better than those supporting Farage

    Both are extreme and incoherent
    I dont expect The Only Tory in the PB Village to like Polanski or his policies, but certainly the story of the year politically is the Labour to Green swing over the year, which is double the size of the Con to Reform swing.
    How much of that is Gaza? Do the Gaza voters come back if there is relative peace?
    How much is typical mid term blues?
    How much withstands a tactical battle vs Reform?

    Feels very volatile to me. Polanski is an impressive communicator for sure, but doesn't have the answers, so the Farage parallel is valid imo.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,290
    edited 8:29AM

    MattW said:

    The government that claims it is cutting out national debt is no borrowing more than ever

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/dec/19/uk-government-borrowing-november-rachel-reeves-budget-economy

    Hmmm.

    Figures from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) showed public sector net borrowing – the difference between spending and income – was £11.7bn last month, £1.9bn less than in the same month a year earlier.

    Yes I was expecting this twaddle from a twat who cant look at the full picture. We are borrowing loads more and one month in isolation means little. Overall this government has no control of its finances.

    I note how you omitted the expected spending was £10bn but was actually £11.9bn.
    So "less than in the corresponding period last year" now means "more than ever".

    Righty-ho !

    You could have included a quote with context; you chose not to do so.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,569
    fitalass said:

    The last PB post by TSE was 'Will this bug John Swinney and the SNP until election day?', and here is the thing while TSE used a humourous play on the latest SNP scandal, it should have been a far bigger story here with far more scrutiny because of the implications for the Holyrood Parliament. But it won't be because frustratingly it involves a really shocking scandal that involves one of our devolved governments...

    So the PB thread like the UK main stream media totally ignored it, literal tumble weed here and elsewhere, special shout out to SkyNews for mentioning it but doing sod all else to investigate it. Now just imagine if this had been a governing party at Westminster where now THREE female elected MPs had been reported to have had their offices bugged by party staffers?! I have no doubt that the Westminster Lobby would have been all over the story and it would have been wall to wall coverage in the 24/7 News channels, especially when the original breaking story reported that the male aid who bugged one female MSP had since moved to work for an SNP MP?!

    Sorry TSE but I was really annoyed when you almost affectionately made fun of and dismissed this shocking scandal, and it is incredible serious story that should have resulted in not only a Parliamentary investigation, but a Police investigation too. I said early yesterday that Holyrood was not only broken, it really is not fit for purpose and that matters with a big election looming there in May next year and I stand by that claim today more than ever. But again I was just so saddened and frustrated at the lack of response here or in the media, not even the most basic questions asked. And to say this scandal stinks is an understatement, no one has asked why or to what end these female SNP MSPs who remain anonymous were bugged, but the Scottish Sun is reporting it suggests internal SNP infighting.

    But the cynic in me after 18 eighteen years of this appalling SNP Government did have one question, why did it take until yesterday for this breaking story to finally see the light of day just as Holyrood went into Christmas recess and both politicians and political journalists departed to go on their festive holidays until the New Year.. Its almost as if this story finally having to break was stage managed so it would hopefully get the least attention or any proper scrutiny by the Holyrood Parliament, the local media or the public. This is how the SNP operate, totally secretive and utterly ruthless in their media management and so cynically in their media operation but they get away with it time and time again because Scotland is deemed a side show despite the fact that they control so much of our public services up here and including taxation when it comes to budgets but we like Wales and NI are totally failed by the UK media!

    And the PB crew fell for it yet again yesterday because they were not even interested.... Oh to be a female MSP in the work place at Holyrood right now!

    Seems to be a national rather than solely PB thing.
    Here, for example, is the Guardian's Scotland page:
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/scotland
    They're the national most likely to run with the story, and so far, crickets.

    A quick google throws up only the Scottish Sun:
    https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/15705778/female-snp-msps-bugged-male-aides-spying-scandal/

    I suspect that this might be one of those stories which takes a few days (or even weeks, given the impending Xmas break) to gain some momentum.
  • MelonBMelonB Posts: 16,567
    edited 8:32AM

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The Green surge is the one that Yougov didn't really explore in this article, perhaps because Polanski only came to prominence mid year.

    Its obvious that while Badenoch continues to shed support to Farage, Polanski continues to gain supporters from Starmer. The Greens are where those former Labour voters have gone.

    Incidentally Polanski is also the most popular of the party leaders, albeit slightly negative and 49% not taking a view.

    I think there will be a lot of attention to the Greens in 2026, particularly they are likely to do well in the May elections in England.

    Good morning

    The Greens are a problem for the left including the lib dems but anyone who supports Polanski's promises is no better than those supporting Farage

    Both are extreme and incoherent
    I dont expect The Only Tory in the PB Village to like Polanski or his policies, but certainly the story of the year politically is the Labour to Green swing over the year, which is double the size of the Con to Reform swing.
    How much of that is Gaza? Do the Gaza voters come back if there is relative peace?
    How much is typical mid term blues?
    How much withstands a tactical battle vs Reform?

    Feels very volatile to me. Polanski is an impressive communicator for sure, but doesn't have the answers, so the Farage parallel is valid imo.
    I think very little is Gaza, or Polanski. How many voters even know who he is?

    It feels like mainly the left wing disappointment vote now Labour is actually in government.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,226
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    The government that claims it is cutting out national debt is no borrowing more than ever

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/dec/19/uk-government-borrowing-november-rachel-reeves-budget-economy

    Hmmm.

    Figures from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) showed public sector net borrowing – the difference between spending and income – was £11.7bn last month, £1.9bn less than in the same month a year earlier.

    Yes I was expecting this twaddle from a twat who cant look at the full picture. We are borrowing loads more and one month in isolation means little. Overall this government has no control of its finances.

    I note how you omitted the expected spending was £10bn but was actually £11.9bn.
    So "less than in the corresponding period last year" now means "more than ever".

    Righty-ho !

    You could have included a quote with context; you chose not to do so.
    Broadly very little change annually but higher by a rounding error on provisional figures, and very high historically, as expected after the decade we have had.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/bulletins/publicsectorfinances/november2025

    "Public sector net debt excluding public sector banks - a measure of the amount of money owed to the UK private sector and overseas, less any liquid assets held - was provisionally estimated at 95.6% of GDP at the end of November 2025; this was 0.3 percentage points more than at the end of November 2024 and remains at levels last seen in the early 1960s."
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,569
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The Green surge is the one that Yougov didn't really explore in this article, perhaps because Polanski only came to prominence mid year.

    Its obvious that while Badenoch continues to shed support to Farage, Polanski continues to gain supporters from Starmer. The Greens are where those former Labour voters have gone.

    Incidentally Polanski is also the most popular of the party leaders, albeit slightly negative and 49% not taking a view.

    I think there will be a lot of attention to the Greens in 2026, particularly they are likely to do well in the May elections in England.

    Good morning

    The Greens are a problem for the left including the lib dems but anyone who supports Polanski's promises is no better than those supporting Farage

    Both are extreme and incoherent
    I dont expect The Only Tory in the PB Village to like Polanski or his policies, but certainly the story of the year politically is the Labour to Green swing over the year, which is double the size of the Con to Reform swing.
    The Greens appear to have siphoned off a significant part of the Labour left.

    I expect that will end what little credibility they retained as a serious environmental movement, but more interesting is whether or not that split in the left of centre vote will persist into the next election.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,450

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The Green surge is the one that Yougov didn't really explore in this article, perhaps because Polanski only came to prominence mid year.

    Its obvious that while Badenoch continues to shed support to Farage, Polanski continues to gain supporters from Starmer. The Greens are where those former Labour voters have gone.

    Incidentally Polanski is also the most popular of the party leaders, albeit slightly negative and 49% not taking a view.

    I think there will be a lot of attention to the Greens in 2026, particularly they are likely to do well in the May elections in England.

    Good morning

    The Greens are a problem for the left including the lib dems but anyone who supports Polanski's promises is no better than those supporting Farage

    Both are extreme and incoherent
    I dont expect The Only Tory in the PB Village to like Polanski or his policies, but certainly the story of the year politically is the Labour to Green swing over the year, which is double the size of the Con to Reform swing.
    How much of that is Gaza? Do the Gaza voters come back if there is relative peace?
    How much is typical mid term blues?
    How much withstands a tactical battle vs Reform?

    Feels very volatile to me. Polanski is an impressive communicator for sure, but doesn't have the answers, so the Farage parallel is valid imo.
    Some is Gaza, but there is clearly a rejection of Starmerite apeing of Reform policy by those on the left of Labour on domestic economic and social issues too.

    Which is why the replacement of Starmer will be someone from the centre-left of the party, not Streeting or Mahmood.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 15,067

    malcolmg said:

    The government that claims it is cutting out national debt is no borrowing more than ever

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/dec/19/uk-government-borrowing-november-rachel-reeves-budget-economy

    You surprise me Alan
    This lot truly are a bunch of crooks.

    They dosh up their mates and make the rest of us foot the bill.
    This may be true Alan, but in which respects does this differ from their predecessors?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,226
    MelonB said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The Green surge is the one that Yougov didn't really explore in this article, perhaps because Polanski only came to prominence mid year.

    Its obvious that while Badenoch continues to shed support to Farage, Polanski continues to gain supporters from Starmer. The Greens are where those former Labour voters have gone.

    Incidentally Polanski is also the most popular of the party leaders, albeit slightly negative and 49% not taking a view.

    I think there will be a lot of attention to the Greens in 2026, particularly they are likely to do well in the May elections in England.

    Good morning

    The Greens are a problem for the left including the lib dems but anyone who supports Polanski's promises is no better than those supporting Farage

    Both are extreme and incoherent
    I dont expect The Only Tory in the PB Village to like Polanski or his policies, but certainly the story of the year politically is the Labour to Green swing over the year, which is double the size of the Con to Reform swing.
    How much of that is Gaza? Do the Gaza voters come back if there is relative peace?
    How much is typical mid term blues?
    How much withstands a tactical battle vs Reform?

    Feels very volatile to me. Polanski is an impressive communicator for sure, but doesn't have the answers, so the Farage parallel is valid imo.
    I think very little is Gaza, or Polanski. How many voters even know who he is?

    It feels like mainly the left wing disappointment vote now Labour is actually in government.
    Green party membership has gone from 70,000 in September to 160,000 now. People have been disappointed in the Labour government since the start, he took over in September......
  • isamisam Posts: 43,232
    edited 8:37AM
    Interesting article on the left and right bloc of voters. From the charts in the header, Labour are getting it wrong, and the Tories are getting it right; Sir Keir is appeasing people that will never vote for him at the expense of annoying those who might. Kemi is gaining support from Reform and losing from left wing parties.

    'The so-called ‘hero voters’ Labour targeted in 2024 did not actually turn out for them in any great numbers. So not only are Labour fighting the last war, they are fighting it with a battle-plan that didn’t actually work. It’s Labour’s very own winter invasion of Russia.'

    @benansell.bsky.social

    https://benansell.substack.com/p/bloc-parties
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,450
    MelonB said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The Green surge is the one that Yougov didn't really explore in this article, perhaps because Polanski only came to prominence mid year.

    Its obvious that while Badenoch continues to shed support to Farage, Polanski continues to gain supporters from Starmer. The Greens are where those former Labour voters have gone.

    Incidentally Polanski is also the most popular of the party leaders, albeit slightly negative and 49% not taking a view.

    I think there will be a lot of attention to the Greens in 2026, particularly they are likely to do well in the May elections in England.

    Good morning

    The Greens are a problem for the left including the lib dems but anyone who supports Polanski's promises is no better than those supporting Farage

    Both are extreme and incoherent
    I dont expect The Only Tory in the PB Village to like Polanski or his policies, but certainly the story of the year politically is the Labour to Green swing over the year, which is double the size of the Con to Reform swing.
    How much of that is Gaza? Do the Gaza voters come back if there is relative peace?
    How much is typical mid term blues?
    How much withstands a tactical battle vs Reform?

    Feels very volatile to me. Polanski is an impressive communicator for sure, but doesn't have the answers, so the Farage parallel is valid imo.
    I think very little is Gaza, or Polanski. How many voters even know who he is?

    It feels like mainly the left wing disappointment vote now Labour is actually in government.
    Underestimating Polanski is a mistake. He is a very good communicator with charisma.

    To an extent he is the same as Farage, though wwithout the foreign ownership.

    Between Farage and Polanski supporters there is half of our electorate. We might be appalled at that but it looks like the future, with Polanski representing a Populist left.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,226
    isam said:

    Interesting article on the left and right bloc of voters. From the charts in the header, Labour are getting it wrong, and the Tories are getting it right; Sir Keir is appeasing people that will never vote for him at the expense of annoying those who might. Kemi is gaining support from Reform and losing from left wing parties.

    'The so-called ‘hero voters’ Labour targeted in 2024 did not actually turn out for them in any great numbers. So not only are Labour fighting the last war, they are fighting it with a battle-plan that didn’t actually work. It’s Labour’s very own winter invasion of Russia.'

    @benansell.bsky.social

    https://benansell.substack.com/p/bloc-parties

    Whoever is in power at the moment will lose a third to a half of their supporters within a year of taking over. Voters expect them to deliver things we are not capable of in those timescales. (What we can do is improve things long term, but voters have no interest in that).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,569
    This is quite an interesting project.
    What do our PB historians made of it ?

    https://x.com/joachim_voth/status/2001688613055267204
    How did people in 1913 see the world? How did they think about the future? We trained LLMs exclusively on pre-1913 texts—no Wikipedia, no 20/20. The model literally doesn't know WWI happened. Announcing the Ranke-4B family of models. Coming soon: https://github.com/DGoettlich/history-llms

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,450
    isam said:

    Interesting article on the left and right bloc of voters. From the charts in the header, Labour are getting it wrong, and the Tories are getting it right; Sir Keir is appeasing people that will never vote for him at the expense of annoying those who might. Kemi is gaining support from Reform and losing from left wing parties.

    'The so-called ‘hero voters’ Labour targeted in 2024 did not actually turn out for them in any great numbers. So not only are Labour fighting the last war, they are fighting it with a battle-plan that didn’t actually work. It’s Labour’s very own winter invasion of Russia.'

    @benansell.bsky.social

    https://benansell.substack.com/p/bloc-parties

    The charts in the header show Badenochs Tories shedding voters to Reform over the year, losing 1 in 4 of their voters, not gaining them.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,083

    The government that claims it is cutting out national debt is no borrowing more than ever

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/dec/19/uk-government-borrowing-november-rachel-reeves-budget-economy

    On R4 Today Rajan was interviewing Andrew Bailey after 8 am this morning - in general a model of decent interviewing which puts Rajan in a class well above the other Today presenters.

    However when he turned to debt, and the issue of at what point it becomes unsustainable, Bailey twice gave thoughtful and considered replies which failed to touch on the question in any way at all. After which Rajan turned to the subject of, IIRC, Christmas ties.

    It felt, no doubt wrongly, to this listener, that there was an interview deal: the question would be asked and not answered, and no attention drawn to the yawning gap.

    If it isn't Bailey's job to have a view on this, whose is it? And at what point does debt become unsustainable?

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,569
    Foxy said:

    MelonB said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The Green surge is the one that Yougov didn't really explore in this article, perhaps because Polanski only came to prominence mid year.

    Its obvious that while Badenoch continues to shed support to Farage, Polanski continues to gain supporters from Starmer. The Greens are where those former Labour voters have gone.

    Incidentally Polanski is also the most popular of the party leaders, albeit slightly negative and 49% not taking a view.

    I think there will be a lot of attention to the Greens in 2026, particularly they are likely to do well in the May elections in England.

    Good morning

    The Greens are a problem for the left including the lib dems but anyone who supports Polanski's promises is no better than those supporting Farage

    Both are extreme and incoherent
    I dont expect The Only Tory in the PB Village to like Polanski or his policies, but certainly the story of the year politically is the Labour to Green swing over the year, which is double the size of the Con to Reform swing.
    How much of that is Gaza? Do the Gaza voters come back if there is relative peace?
    How much is typical mid term blues?
    How much withstands a tactical battle vs Reform?

    Feels very volatile to me. Polanski is an impressive communicator for sure, but doesn't have the answers, so the Farage parallel is valid imo.
    I think very little is Gaza, or Polanski. How many voters even know who he is?

    It feels like mainly the left wing disappointment vote now Labour is actually in government.
    Underestimating Polanski is a mistake. He is a very good communicator with charisma.

    To an extent he is the same as Farage, though wwithout the foreign ownership.

    Between Farage and Polanski supporters there is half of our electorate. We might be appalled at that but it looks like the future, with Polanski representing a Populist left.
    Both anti-pragmatist.
    Either are going to struggle to govern in the slightest bit coherently.

    We might look back on the last decade as a period of relative competence.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 47,111
    Nigelb said:

    fitalass said:

    The last PB post by TSE was 'Will this bug John Swinney and the SNP until election day?', and here is the thing while TSE used a humourous play on the latest SNP scandal, it should have been a far bigger story here with far more scrutiny because of the implications for the Holyrood Parliament. But it won't be because frustratingly it involves a really shocking scandal that involves one of our devolved governments...

    So the PB thread like the UK main stream media totally ignored it, literal tumble weed here and elsewhere, special shout out to SkyNews for mentioning it but doing sod all else to investigate it. Now just imagine if this had been a governing party at Westminster where now THREE female elected MPs had been reported to have had their offices bugged by party staffers?! I have no doubt that the Westminster Lobby would have been all over the story and it would have been wall to wall coverage in the 24/7 News channels, especially when the original breaking story reported that the male aid who bugged one female MSP had since moved to work for an SNP MP?!

    Sorry TSE but I was really annoyed when you almost affectionately made fun of and dismissed this shocking scandal, and it is incredible serious story that should have resulted in not only a Parliamentary investigation, but a Police investigation too. I said early yesterday that Holyrood was not only broken, it really is not fit for purpose and that matters with a big election looming there in May next year and I stand by that claim today more than ever. But again I was just so saddened and frustrated at the lack of response here or in the media, not even the most basic questions asked. And to say this scandal stinks is an understatement, no one has asked why or to what end these female SNP MSPs who remain anonymous were bugged, but the Scottish Sun is reporting it suggests internal SNP infighting.

    But the cynic in me after 18 eighteen years of this appalling SNP Government did have one question, why did it take until yesterday for this breaking story to finally see the light of day just as Holyrood went into Christmas recess and both politicians and political journalists departed to go on their festive holidays until the New Year.. Its almost as if this story finally having to break was stage managed so it would hopefully get the least attention or any proper scrutiny by the Holyrood Parliament, the local media or the public. This is how the SNP operate, totally secretive and utterly ruthless in their media management and so cynically in their media operation but they get away with it time and time again because Scotland is deemed a side show despite the fact that they control so much of our public services up here and including taxation when it comes to budgets but we like Wales and NI are totally failed by the UK media!

    And the PB crew fell for it yet again yesterday because they were not even interested.... Oh to be a female MSP in the work place at Holyrood right now!

    Seems to be a national rather than solely PB thing.
    Here, for example, is the Guardian's Scotland page:
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/scotland
    They're the national most likely to run with the story, and so far, crickets.

    A quick google throws up only the Scottish Sun:
    https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/15705778/female-snp-msps-bugged-male-aides-spying-scandal/

    I suspect that this might be one of those stories which takes a few days (or even weeks, given the impending Xmas break) to gain some momentum.
    Er, more than that.

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/25710475.female-msps-say-bugged-male-staffers/
    https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/at-least-three-female-snp-msps-say-they-were-bugged-by-male-aides-5448975?ref=ed_direct

    And Herald, DT, DM, DE(Scot), BBC, Sky.

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,263
    This should have been the header...

  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,290
    Have we done the (modest) changes coming in Westminster Lobby briefings?

    No 10 normally holds two briefings on most days that parliament sits to allow the lobby – political journalists that cover Westminster – to question the prime minister’s official spokesperson.

    But in an email on Thursday, Tim Allan, Downing Street’s executive director of communications, said there would be no afternoon briefings from next month. He said No 10 would instead hold “occasional” afternoon press conferences with ministers, as well as technical briefings with officials.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/dec/18/journalists-condemn-surprise-shake-up-no-10-lobby-briefings

    To me that does not look like a thing that will help the Downing Street comms strategy deliver what they perhaps need - unless there is more to come alongside these changes.
  • TazTaz Posts: 23,127
    MattW said:

    The government that claims it is cutting out national debt is no borrowing more than ever

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/dec/19/uk-government-borrowing-november-rachel-reeves-budget-economy

    Hmmm.

    Figures from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) showed public sector net borrowing – the difference between spending and income – was £11.7bn last month, £1.9bn less than in the same month a year earlier.

    That’s just 1 month. Look at rolling 12 months.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 26,090

    malcolmg said:

    The government that claims it is cutting out national debt is no borrowing more than ever

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/dec/19/uk-government-borrowing-november-rachel-reeves-budget-economy

    You surprise me Alan
    This lot truly are a bunch of crooks.

    They dosh up their mates and make the rest of us foot the bill.
    This may be true Alan, but in which respects does this differ from their predecessors?
    So their position is they are as bad as the Tories.

    Im sure that will inspire support.

    Werent they meant to be better, cleaner the adults in the room ?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,501
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    England’s Head drop as match slips away.

    (Although truthfully it slipped away with yet another dozy batting performance in the first innings.)

    Wasn't that bad, Doc. The basic problem is that they are not good enough, and it's difficult to do much about that.
    Other than pick better players, of course.
    Assuming we have some, how would we know? Nobody plays red ball cricket these days.
    It’s hardly a stretch to say that any one of Hameed, Compton, Haines, Charlesworth or Lees would be a better option at the top of the order than Crawley (or indeed one of them also replacing Pope).

    It’s not difficult to imagine Foakes would be a better keeper than Smith, or that James Rew would score as many runs as Smith does as well as being a better keeper.

    It’s not daft to suggest Potts would take more wickets and offer more control than Carse, or Leach be a better option than Jacks or Bashir with the ball. True, he might not take wickets but nor do they, and he wouldn’t leak runs at such a rate.

    And yet they are shoved out of the way for players who play ‘the Bazball way.’

    I do not think they would necessarily win the Ashes in Australia, but nor would they endlessly self-destruct as this lot have repeatedly over the last twelve months.

    Which tells me there is something fundamentally wrong with the national selectors that needs changing.
    Bashir has potential, I think ?
    And you can hardly judge him for not performing when he hasn't been picked (absurdly not for this wicket).
    You don't write off promising spinners in they're early twenties.

    Jacks rather more evidently doesn't have it (though it's instructive to note that he's bowled 39 overs in this test - and a mere 259 in red ball cricket in the last three years).

    Enjoy the pictures at the top of this article.
    https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/ashes-tours-can-end-careers-ollie-pope-could-be-next-1516133
    Bashir may have potential, but he's hardly going to realise it if he never plays cricket where he can learn to use his attributes to take wickets and dry up runs. There's a non-trivial chance his first class career is actually over. Bethell has exactly the same problem.

    The more you look at those two, the more you realise just how fortunate Graeme Swann was to be abandoned in his teens and not come back for several years.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 47,111

    This should have been the header...

    Just as well it's a C5 series, otherwise it'd set off the BBC haters on here. All those licence-funded woke lanyard lies.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,083
    Nigelb said:

    This is quite an interesting project.
    What do our PB historians made of it ?

    https://x.com/joachim_voth/status/2001688613055267204
    How did people in 1913 see the world? How did they think about the future? We trained LLMs exclusively on pre-1913 texts—no Wikipedia, no 20/20. The model literally doesn't know WWI happened. Announcing the Ranke-4B family of models. Coming soon: https://github.com/DGoettlich/history-llms

    This is what makes diaries so amazing. Pepys's (1660-1669) having no idea until 1666 that the fire will render the City of London he writes about for six years mostly non existent. For pre WW1 and how it felt running up to it in ignorance my favourite is a real obscurity, the diary of Bishop Edward Lee Hicks (1910-1919), a boring teetotal bishop of Lincoln who stalks his diocese by train.

    (NB He visited Algarkirk on 12th March 1914).

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 26,090
    edited 8:52AM
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    MelonB said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The Green surge is the one that Yougov didn't really explore in this article, perhaps because Polanski only came to prominence mid year.

    Its obvious that while Badenoch continues to shed support to Farage, Polanski continues to gain supporters from Starmer. The Greens are where those former Labour voters have gone.

    Incidentally Polanski is also the most popular of the party leaders, albeit slightly negative and 49% not taking a view.

    I think there will be a lot of attention to the Greens in 2026, particularly they are likely to do well in the May elections in England.

    Good morning

    The Greens are a problem for the left including the lib dems but anyone who supports Polanski's promises is no better than those supporting Farage

    Both are extreme and incoherent
    I dont expect The Only Tory in the PB Village to like Polanski or his policies, but certainly the story of the year politically is the Labour to Green swing over the year, which is double the size of the Con to Reform swing.
    How much of that is Gaza? Do the Gaza voters come back if there is relative peace?
    How much is typical mid term blues?
    How much withstands a tactical battle vs Reform?

    Feels very volatile to me. Polanski is an impressive communicator for sure, but doesn't have the answers, so the Farage parallel is valid imo.
    I think very little is Gaza, or Polanski. How many voters even know who he is?

    It feels like mainly the left wing disappointment vote now Labour is actually in government.
    Underestimating Polanski is a mistake. He is a very good communicator with charisma.

    To an extent he is the same as Farage, though wwithout the foreign ownership.

    Between Farage and Polanski supporters there is half of our electorate. We might be appalled at that but it looks like the future, with Polanski representing a Populist left.
    Both anti-pragmatist.
    Either are going to struggle to govern in the slightest bit coherently.

    We might look back on the last decade as a period of relative competence.
    The big advantage Greens and Reform have is that neither Labour nor the Conservatives are in a position to advance a competence argument.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,569
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    England’s Head drop as match slips away.

    (Although truthfully it slipped away with yet another dozy batting performance in the first innings.)

    Wasn't that bad, Doc. The basic problem is that they are not good enough, and it's difficult to do much about that.
    Other than pick better players, of course.
    Assuming we have some, how would we know? Nobody plays red ball cricket these days.
    It’s hardly a stretch to say that any one of Hameed, Compton, Haines, Charlesworth or Lees would be a better option at the top of the order than Crawley (or indeed one of them also replacing Pope).

    It’s not difficult to imagine Foakes would be a better keeper than Smith, or that James Rew would score as many runs as Smith does as well as being a better keeper.

    It’s not daft to suggest Potts would take more wickets and offer more control than Carse, or Leach be a better option than Jacks or Bashir with the ball. True, he might not take wickets but nor do they, and he wouldn’t leak runs at such a rate.

    And yet they are shoved out of the way for players who play ‘the Bazball way.’

    I do not think they would necessarily win the Ashes in Australia, but nor would they endlessly self-destruct as this lot have repeatedly over the last twelve months.

    Which tells me there is something fundamentally wrong with the national selectors that needs changing.
    Bashir has potential, I think ?
    And you can hardly judge him for not performing when he hasn't been picked (absurdly not for this wicket).
    You don't write off promising spinners in they're early twenties.

    Jacks rather more evidently doesn't have it (though it's instructive to note that he's bowled 39 overs in this test - and a mere 259 in red ball cricket in the last three years).

    Enjoy the pictures at the top of this article.
    https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/ashes-tours-can-end-careers-ollie-pope-could-be-next-1516133
    Bashir may have potential, but he's hardly going to realise it if he never plays cricket where he can learn to use his attributes to take wickets and dry up runs. There's a non-trivial chance his first class career is actually over. Bethell has exactly the same problem.

    The more you look at those two, the more you realise just how fortunate Graeme Swann was to be abandoned in his teens and not come back for several years.
    Oh, I agree.
    And the point about never playing red ball cricket is the most powerful one. Swann bowled up to 1000 overs in a season; Jacks less than ninety.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 47,111
    DavidL said:

    God, we are a grumpy lot are we not? Its nearly Christmas, a time for good cheer and positivity.

    Merry Christmas everyone.

    And best wishes of the season to you and everyone on PB.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,501
    DavidL said:

    God, we are a grumpy lot are we not? Its nearly Christmas, a time for good cheer and positivity.

    Merry Christmas everyone.

    Except Rob Key *grinchface*
  • isamisam Posts: 43,232
    edited 8:54AM
    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    Interesting article on the left and right bloc of voters. From the charts in the header, Labour are getting it wrong, and the Tories are getting it right; Sir Keir is appeasing people that will never vote for him at the expense of annoying those who might. Kemi is gaining support from Reform and losing from left wing parties.

    'The so-called ‘hero voters’ Labour targeted in 2024 did not actually turn out for them in any great numbers. So not only are Labour fighting the last war, they are fighting it with a battle-plan that didn’t actually work. It’s Labour’s very own winter invasion of Russia.'

    @benansell.bsky.social

    https://benansell.substack.com/p/bloc-parties

    The charts in the header show Badenochs Tories shedding voters to Reform over the year, losing 1 in 4 of their voters, not gaining them.
    Can’t see that chart, but here are the ones proving my point



  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,482
    Nigelb said:

    This is quite an interesting project.
    What do our PB historians made of it ?

    https://x.com/joachim_voth/status/2001688613055267204
    How did people in 1913 see the world? How did they think about the future? We trained LLMs exclusively on pre-1913 texts—no Wikipedia, no 20/20. The model literally doesn't know WWI happened. Announcing the Ranke-4B family of models. Coming soon: https://github.com/DGoettlich/history-llms

    Could well be an interesting experiment on whether the training container is leak proof.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 27,089
    isam said:

    Interesting article on the left and right bloc of voters. From the charts in the header, Labour are getting it wrong, and the Tories are getting it right; Sir Keir is appeasing people that will never vote for him at the expense of annoying those who might. Kemi is gaining support from Reform and losing from left wing parties.

    'The so-called ‘hero voters’ Labour targeted in 2024 did not actually turn out for them in any great numbers. So not only are Labour fighting the last war, they are fighting it with a battle-plan that didn’t actually work. It’s Labour’s very own winter invasion of Russia.'

    @benansell.bsky.social

    https://benansell.substack.com/p/bloc-parties

    Interesting read, @isam, thank you
  • TazTaz Posts: 23,127
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The Green surge is the one that Yougov didn't really explore in this article, perhaps because Polanski only came to prominence mid year.

    Its obvious that while Badenoch continues to shed support to Farage, Polanski continues to gain supporters from Starmer. The Greens are where those former Labour voters have gone.

    Incidentally Polanski is also the most popular of the party leaders, albeit slightly negative and 49% not taking a view.

    I think there will be a lot of attention to the Greens in 2026, particularly they are likely to do well in the May elections in England.

    Good morning

    The Greens are a problem for the left including the lib dems but anyone who supports Polanski's promises is no better than those supporting Farage

    Both are extreme and incoherent
    I dont expect The Only Tory in the PB Village to like Polanski or his policies, but certainly the story of the year politically is the Labour to Green swing over the year, which is double the size of the Con to Reform swing.
    How much of that is Gaza? Do the Gaza voters come back if there is relative peace?
    How much is typical mid term blues?
    How much withstands a tactical battle vs Reform?

    Feels very volatile to me. Polanski is an impressive communicator for sure, but doesn't have the answers, so the Farage parallel is valid imo.
    Some is Gaza, but there is clearly a rejection of Starmerite apeing of Reform policy by those on the left of Labour on domestic economic and social issues too.

    Which is why the replacement of Starmer will be someone from the centre-left of the party, not Streeting or Mahmood.
    Reform don’t have a domestic economic policy to ape.

    Controlling our borders and migration is a sensible thing. The Greens are merely, like Lib Dem’s, open door fanatics. That’s fair enough but to pretend controlling borders and migration is reform lite is wrong, there’s no remigration talk.

    Also changing the rules on the years needed to get ILR is absolutely right. The Boriswave was an economic time bomb. As has been discussed previously.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,025
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The Green surge is the one that Yougov didn't really explore in this article, perhaps because Polanski only came to prominence mid year.

    Its obvious that while Badenoch continues to shed support to Farage, Polanski continues to gain supporters from Starmer. The Greens are where those former Labour voters have gone.

    Incidentally Polanski is also the most popular of the party leaders, albeit slightly negative and 49% not taking a view.

    I think there will be a lot of attention to the Greens in 2026, particularly they are likely to do well in the May elections in England.

    Good morning

    The Greens are a problem for the left including the lib dems but anyone who supports Polanski's promises is no better than those supporting Farage

    Both are extreme and incoherent
    I dont expect The Only Tory in the PB Village to like Polanski or his policies, but certainly the story of the year politically is the Labour to Green swing over the year, which is double the size of the Con to Reform swing.
    How much of that is Gaza? Do the Gaza voters come back if there is relative peace?
    How much is typical mid term blues?
    How much withstands a tactical battle vs Reform?

    Feels very volatile to me. Polanski is an impressive communicator for sure, but doesn't have the answers, so the Farage parallel is valid imo.
    Some is Gaza, but there is clearly a rejection of Starmerite apeing of Reform policy by those on the left of Labour on domestic economic and social issues too.

    Which is why the replacement of Starmer will be someone from the centre-left of the party, not Streeting or Mahmood.
    Alternatively, why bother?

    It's the mirror image of the problem the Conservatives still haven't really answered after twenty years of Faragism. How should a party of government deal with a rival saying all the things that you also wish were true, but you know aren't?

    If you move towards the populists on your side, throw them a bone so to speak, it doesn't win back many voters. The populists will pocket the wins, look vindicated and still be better communicators. So they will just go one step more extreme. And repeat.

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,075
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The Green surge is the one that Yougov didn't really explore in this article, perhaps because Polanski only came to prominence mid year.

    Its obvious that while Badenoch continues to shed support to Farage, Polanski continues to gain supporters from Starmer. The Greens are where those former Labour voters have gone.

    Incidentally Polanski is also the most popular of the party leaders, albeit slightly negative and 49% not taking a view.

    I think there will be a lot of attention to the Greens in 2026, particularly they are likely to do well in the May elections in England.

    Good morning

    The Greens are a problem for the left including the lib dems but anyone who supports Polanski's promises is no better than those supporting Farage

    Both are extreme and incoherent
    I dont expect The Only Tory in the PB Village to like Polanski or his policies, but certainly the story of the year politically is the Labour to Green swing over the year, which is double the size of the Con to Reform swing.
    The Greens appear to have siphoned off a significant part of the Labour left.

    I expect that will end what little credibility they retained as a serious environmental movement, but more interesting is whether or not that split in the left of centre vote will persist into the next election.
    What does a credible & serious environmental movement look like? There seem to be various possibilities even within these isles. What’s clear is that if you limit yourself to just environmental issues it’ pretty much gives the mainstream a licence to ignore you.

    I think PBers have occasionally spoken approvingly of the German Greens. Their most prominent politician of recent times, Baerbock, seems to have become part of the German establishment, right down to adopting their unblinking support of every action of Israel. She’s now president of the UN General Assembly. At least Polanski is unlikely to take that path.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,569
    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    fitalass said:

    The last PB post by TSE was 'Will this bug John Swinney and the SNP until election day?', and here is the thing while TSE used a humourous play on the latest SNP scandal, it should have been a far bigger story here with far more scrutiny because of the implications for the Holyrood Parliament. But it won't be because frustratingly it involves a really shocking scandal that involves one of our devolved governments...

    So the PB thread like the UK main stream media totally ignored it, literal tumble weed here and elsewhere, special shout out to SkyNews for mentioning it but doing sod all else to investigate it. Now just imagine if this had been a governing party at Westminster where now THREE female elected MPs had been reported to have had their offices bugged by party staffers?! I have no doubt that the Westminster Lobby would have been all over the story and it would have been wall to wall coverage in the 24/7 News channels, especially when the original breaking story reported that the male aid who bugged one female MSP had since moved to work for an SNP MP?!

    Sorry TSE but I was really annoyed when you almost affectionately made fun of and dismissed this shocking scandal, and it is incredible serious story that should have resulted in not only a Parliamentary investigation, but a Police investigation too. I said early yesterday that Holyrood was not only broken, it really is not fit for purpose and that matters with a big election looming there in May next year and I stand by that claim today more than ever. But again I was just so saddened and frustrated at the lack of response here or in the media, not even the most basic questions asked. And to say this scandal stinks is an understatement, no one has asked why or to what end these female SNP MSPs who remain anonymous were bugged, but the Scottish Sun is reporting it suggests internal SNP infighting.

    But the cynic in me after 18 eighteen years of this appalling SNP Government did have one question, why did it take until yesterday for this breaking story to finally see the light of day just as Holyrood went into Christmas recess and both politicians and political journalists departed to go on their festive holidays until the New Year.. Its almost as if this story finally having to break was stage managed so it would hopefully get the least attention or any proper scrutiny by the Holyrood Parliament, the local media or the public. This is how the SNP operate, totally secretive and utterly ruthless in their media management and so cynically in their media operation but they get away with it time and time again because Scotland is deemed a side show despite the fact that they control so much of our public services up here and including taxation when it comes to budgets but we like Wales and NI are totally failed by the UK media!

    And the PB crew fell for it yet again yesterday because they were not even interested.... Oh to be a female MSP in the work place at Holyrood right now!

    Seems to be a national rather than solely PB thing.
    Here, for example, is the Guardian's Scotland page:
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/scotland
    They're the national most likely to run with the story, and so far, crickets.

    A quick google throws up only the Scottish Sun:
    https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/15705778/female-snp-msps-bugged-male-aides-spying-scandal/

    I suspect that this might be one of those stories which takes a few days (or even weeks, given the impending Xmas break) to gain some momentum.
    Er, more than that.

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/25710475.female-msps-say-bugged-male-staffers/
    https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/at-least-three-female-snp-msps-say-they-were-bugged-by-male-aides-5448975?ref=ed_direct

    And Herald, DT, DM, DE(Scot), BBC, Sky.

    The BBC report appears to be little more than a rehash of the Scotsman story.
    The national media haven't yet really got started on this, I think ?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czdg21yq833o.amp
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,569

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    MelonB said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The Green surge is the one that Yougov didn't really explore in this article, perhaps because Polanski only came to prominence mid year.

    Its obvious that while Badenoch continues to shed support to Farage, Polanski continues to gain supporters from Starmer. The Greens are where those former Labour voters have gone.

    Incidentally Polanski is also the most popular of the party leaders, albeit slightly negative and 49% not taking a view.

    I think there will be a lot of attention to the Greens in 2026, particularly they are likely to do well in the May elections in England.

    Good morning

    The Greens are a problem for the left including the lib dems but anyone who supports Polanski's promises is no better than those supporting Farage

    Both are extreme and incoherent
    I dont expect The Only Tory in the PB Village to like Polanski or his policies, but certainly the story of the year politically is the Labour to Green swing over the year, which is double the size of the Con to Reform swing.
    How much of that is Gaza? Do the Gaza voters come back if there is relative peace?
    How much is typical mid term blues?
    How much withstands a tactical battle vs Reform?

    Feels very volatile to me. Polanski is an impressive communicator for sure, but doesn't have the answers, so the Farage parallel is valid imo.
    I think very little is Gaza, or Polanski. How many voters even know who he is?

    It feels like mainly the left wing disappointment vote now Labour is actually in government.
    Underestimating Polanski is a mistake. He is a very good communicator with charisma.

    To an extent he is the same as Farage, though wwithout the foreign ownership.

    Between Farage and Polanski supporters there is half of our electorate. We might be appalled at that but it looks like the future, with Polanski representing a Populist left.
    Both anti-pragmatist.
    Either are going to struggle to govern in the slightest bit coherently.

    We might look back on the last decade as a period of relative competence.
    The big advantage Greens and Reform have is that neither Labour nor the Conservatives are in a position to advance a competence argument.
    In electoral terms, absolutely.
    I'm just forecasting that either will likely be even worse in government.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,501
    edited 9:01AM
    Nigelb said:

    This is quite an interesting project.
    What do our PB historians made of it ?

    https://x.com/joachim_voth/status/2001688613055267204
    How did people in 1913 see the world? How did they think about the future? We trained LLMs exclusively on pre-1913 texts—no Wikipedia, no 20/20. The model literally doesn't know WWI happened. Announcing the Ranke-4B family of models. Coming soon: https://github.com/DGoettlich/history-llms

    A point made forcefully by many historians, for example Michael Bentley. 'Politicians of that era (1905-1914) had no reason to think that they needed to complete everything before the chiming of some solemn midnight hour in 1914...diaries of Liberal politicians (in spring 1914) have an optimistic future tense reference to the election of 1915...in their imagination, those young men in the summer of 1914 rode the crest of an open future.'

    An idea of how people thought and felt in any era can be gained by reading newspapers of the period for several days*, and the results are usually interesting. AI is doing the same thing, just quicker.

    *Something that will be to put it mildly more challenging for historians of our own times.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,814
    algarkirk said:

    The government that claims it is cutting out national debt is no borrowing more than ever

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/dec/19/uk-government-borrowing-november-rachel-reeves-budget-economy

    On R4 Today Rajan was interviewing Andrew Bailey after 8 am this morning - in general a model of decent interviewing which puts Rajan in a class well above the other Today presenters.

    However when he turned to debt, and the issue of at what point it becomes unsustainable, Bailey twice gave thoughtful and considered replies which failed to touch on the question in any way at all. After which Rajan turned to the subject of, IIRC, Christmas ties.

    It felt, no doubt wrongly, to this listener, that there was an interview deal: the question would be asked and not answered, and no attention drawn to the yawning gap.

    If it isn't Bailey's job to have a view on this, whose is it? And at what point does debt become unsustainable?

    The unsayable truth, is that debt became unsustainable some time ago.

    It’s the ten ton African bush elephant in the very small room.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,569
    AnneJGP said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is quite an interesting project.
    What do our PB historians made of it ?

    https://x.com/joachim_voth/status/2001688613055267204
    How did people in 1913 see the world? How did they think about the future? We trained LLMs exclusively on pre-1913 texts—no Wikipedia, no 20/20. The model literally doesn't know WWI happened. Announcing the Ranke-4B family of models. Coming soon: https://github.com/DGoettlich/history-llms

    Could well be an interesting experiment on whether the training container is leak proof.
    See the thread, which gives an example with the answer to the question "who was Adolph Hitler ?".
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,083
    AnneJGP said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is quite an interesting project.
    What do our PB historians made of it ?

    https://x.com/joachim_voth/status/2001688613055267204
    How did people in 1913 see the world? How did they think about the future? We trained LLMs exclusively on pre-1913 texts—no Wikipedia, no 20/20. The model literally doesn't know WWI happened. Announcing the Ranke-4B family of models. Coming soon: https://github.com/DGoettlich/history-llms

    Could well be an interesting experiment on whether the training container is leak proof.
    Juliet Nicolson, The Perfect Summer, England 1911 is a beautiful book on the theme. Larkin's MCMXIV captures it wonderfully:

    Those long uneven lines
    Standing as patiently
    As if they were stretched outside
    The Oval or Villa Park,
    The crowns of hats, the sun
    On moustached archaic faces
    Grinning as if it were all
    An August Bank Holiday lark;

    And the shut shops, the bleached
    Established names on the sunblinds,
    The farthings and sovereigns,
    And dark-clothed children at play
    Called after kings and queens,
    The tin advertisements
    For cocoa and twist, and the pubs
    Wide open all day;

    And the countryside not caring
    The place-names all hazed over
    With flowering grasses, and fields
    Shadowing Domesday lines
    Under wheats' restless silence;
    The differently-dressed servants
    With tiny rooms in huge houses,
    The dust behind limousines;

    Never such innocence,
    Never before or since,
    As changed itself to past
    Without a word—the men
    Leaving the gardens tidy,
    The thousands of marriages
    Lasting a little while longer:
    Never such innocence again.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 2,039

    malcolmg said:

    The government that claims it is cutting out national debt is no borrowing more than ever

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/dec/19/uk-government-borrowing-november-rachel-reeves-budget-economy

    You surprise me Alan
    This lot truly are a bunch of crooks.

    They dosh up their mates and make the rest of us foot the bill.
    This may be true Alan, but in which respects does this differ from their predecessors?
    In that Alan is wrong and the previous administration, specifically the Johnson era, was far far worse?

    Mone, David Mellor (not that one!), Andrew Mills, Cummings, Gove, Hancock, Chadlington, is just a small number of the spivs who made millions from PPE that was unfit for purpose and politicians who at the very least did not deal with perceived conflicts of interest properly.

    If Alan is able to point to any Labour ministers or advisers guilty of similar then they should be investigated and dealt with.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 26,090
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    MelonB said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The Green surge is the one that Yougov didn't really explore in this article, perhaps because Polanski only came to prominence mid year.

    Its obvious that while Badenoch continues to shed support to Farage, Polanski continues to gain supporters from Starmer. The Greens are where those former Labour voters have gone.

    Incidentally Polanski is also the most popular of the party leaders, albeit slightly negative and 49% not taking a view.

    I think there will be a lot of attention to the Greens in 2026, particularly they are likely to do well in the May elections in England.

    Good morning

    The Greens are a problem for the left including the lib dems but anyone who supports Polanski's promises is no better than those supporting Farage

    Both are extreme and incoherent
    I dont expect The Only Tory in the PB Village to like Polanski or his policies, but certainly the story of the year politically is the Labour to Green swing over the year, which is double the size of the Con to Reform swing.
    How much of that is Gaza? Do the Gaza voters come back if there is relative peace?
    How much is typical mid term blues?
    How much withstands a tactical battle vs Reform?

    Feels very volatile to me. Polanski is an impressive communicator for sure, but doesn't have the answers, so the Farage parallel is valid imo.
    I think very little is Gaza, or Polanski. How many voters even know who he is?

    It feels like mainly the left wing disappointment vote now Labour is actually in government.
    Underestimating Polanski is a mistake. He is a very good communicator with charisma.

    To an extent he is the same as Farage, though wwithout the foreign ownership.

    Between Farage and Polanski supporters there is half of our electorate. We might be appalled at that but it looks like the future, with Polanski representing a Populist left.
    Both anti-pragmatist.
    Either are going to struggle to govern in the slightest bit coherently.

    We might look back on the last decade as a period of relative competence.
    The big advantage Greens and Reform have is that neither Labour nor the Conservatives are in a position to advance a competence argument.
    In electoral terms, absolutely.
    I'm just forecasting that either will likely be even worse in government.
    Well maybe. But the dog that hasnt barked so far is Reform running councils. They havent done what they claimed they could but that is just facing the realities local govt financing. But nor have they imploded and they have an eager media wishing for disaster stories.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,569
    edited 9:09AM

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The Green surge is the one that Yougov didn't really explore in this article, perhaps because Polanski only came to prominence mid year.

    Its obvious that while Badenoch continues to shed support to Farage, Polanski continues to gain supporters from Starmer. The Greens are where those former Labour voters have gone.

    Incidentally Polanski is also the most popular of the party leaders, albeit slightly negative and 49% not taking a view.

    I think there will be a lot of attention to the Greens in 2026, particularly they are likely to do well in the May elections in England.

    Good morning

    The Greens are a problem for the left including the lib dems but anyone who supports Polanski's promises is no better than those supporting Farage

    Both are extreme and incoherent
    I dont expect The Only Tory in the PB Village to like Polanski or his policies, but certainly the story of the year politically is the Labour to Green swing over the year, which is double the size of the Con to Reform swing.
    The Greens appear to have siphoned off a significant part of the Labour left.

    I expect that will end what little credibility they retained as a serious environmental movement, but more interesting is whether or not that split in the left of centre vote will persist into the next election.
    What does a credible & serious environmental movement look like? There seem to be various possibilities even within these isles. What’s clear is that if you limit yourself to just environmental issues it’ pretty much gives the mainstream a licence to ignore you.

    I think PBers have occasionally spoken approvingly of the German Greens. Their most prominent politician of recent times, Baerbock, seems to have become part of the German establishment, right down to adopting their unblinking support of every action of Israel. She’s now president of the UN General Assembly. At least Polanski is unlikely to take that path.
    I'm not sure that approval was for their environmental policies. For example, the shuttering of Germany's nuclear plants, which they strongly supported, was deeply misconceived from an environmental POV.

    Support or opposition to Israel hasn't much, if anything at all to do with environmentalism.

    But you raise a good question. What might the policies be of a serious Green Party which aspired to actually govern effectively, and was motivated primarily by environmental pragmatism ?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,903
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is quite an interesting project.
    What do our PB historians made of it ?

    https://x.com/joachim_voth/status/2001688613055267204
    How did people in 1913 see the world? How did they think about the future? We trained LLMs exclusively on pre-1913 texts—no Wikipedia, no 20/20. The model literally doesn't know WWI happened. Announcing the Ranke-4B family of models. Coming soon: https://github.com/DGoettlich/history-llms

    A point made forcefully by many historians, for example Michael Bentley. 'Politicians of that era (1905-1914) had no reason to think that they needed to complete everything before the chiming of some solemn midnight hour in 1914...diaries of Liberal politicians (in spring 1914) have an optimistic future tense reference to the election of 1915...in their imagination, those young men in the summer of 1914 rode the crest of an open future.'

    An idea of how people thought and felt in any era can be gained by reading newspapers of the period for several days*, and the results are usually interesting. AI is doing the same thing, just quicker.

    *Something that will be to put it mildly more challenging for historians of our own times.
    They'll just need to read pb.com...
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 26,090
    Dopermean said:

    malcolmg said:

    The government that claims it is cutting out national debt is no borrowing more than ever

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/dec/19/uk-government-borrowing-november-rachel-reeves-budget-economy

    You surprise me Alan
    This lot truly are a bunch of crooks.

    They dosh up their mates and make the rest of us foot the bill.
    This may be true Alan, but in which respects does this differ from their predecessors?
    In that Alan is wrong and the previous administration, specifically the Johnson era, was far far worse?

    Mone, David Mellor (not that one!), Andrew Mills, Cummings, Gove, Hancock, Chadlington, is just a small number of the spivs who made millions from PPE that was unfit for purpose and politicians who at the very least did not deal with perceived conflicts of interest properly.

    If Alan is able to point to any Labour ministers or advisers guilty of similar then they should be investigated and dealt with.
    I see your problem. You cant actually point to how this government is performing to the level they claimed they would so you have to look backwards.

    Where's the growth, where's the housebuilding, where's the debt reduction ?

    There isnt any.

  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,025

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    MelonB said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The Green surge is the one that Yougov didn't really explore in this article, perhaps because Polanski only came to prominence mid year.

    Its obvious that while Badenoch continues to shed support to Farage, Polanski continues to gain supporters from Starmer. The Greens are where those former Labour voters have gone.

    Incidentally Polanski is also the most popular of the party leaders, albeit slightly negative and 49% not taking a view.

    I think there will be a lot of attention to the Greens in 2026, particularly they are likely to do well in the May elections in England.

    Good morning

    The Greens are a problem for the left including the lib dems but anyone who supports Polanski's promises is no better than those supporting Farage

    Both are extreme and incoherent
    I dont expect The Only Tory in the PB Village to like Polanski or his policies, but certainly the story of the year politically is the Labour to Green swing over the year, which is double the size of the Con to Reform swing.
    How much of that is Gaza? Do the Gaza voters come back if there is relative peace?
    How much is typical mid term blues?
    How much withstands a tactical battle vs Reform?

    Feels very volatile to me. Polanski is an impressive communicator for sure, but doesn't have the answers, so the Farage parallel is valid imo.
    I think very little is Gaza, or Polanski. How many voters even know who he is?

    It feels like mainly the left wing disappointment vote now Labour is actually in government.
    Underestimating Polanski is a mistake. He is a very good communicator with charisma.

    To an extent he is the same as Farage, though wwithout the foreign ownership.

    Between Farage and Polanski supporters there is half of our electorate. We might be appalled at that but it looks like the future, with Polanski representing a Populist left.
    Both anti-pragmatist.
    Either are going to struggle to govern in the slightest bit coherently.

    We might look back on the last decade as a period of relative competence.
    The big advantage Greens and Reform have is that neither Labour nor the Conservatives are in a position to advance a competence argument.
    In electoral terms, absolutely.
    I'm just forecasting that either will likely be even worse in government.
    Well maybe. But the dog that hasnt barked so far is Reform running councils. They havent done what they claimed they could but that is just facing the realities local govt financing. But nor have they imploded and they have an eager media wishing for disaster stories.

    Though the timings of elections and budgetary processes means that Reform run councils have been running on the legacy plans of their predecessors. The interesting bit- what happens from April 2026- is what's being settled now.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,263
    MattW said:

    Have we done the (modest) changes coming in Westminster Lobby briefings?

    No 10 normally holds two briefings on most days that parliament sits to allow the lobby – political journalists that cover Westminster – to question the prime minister’s official spokesperson.

    But in an email on Thursday, Tim Allan, Downing Street’s executive director of communications, said there would be no afternoon briefings from next month. He said No 10 would instead hold “occasional” afternoon press conferences with ministers, as well as technical briefings with officials.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/dec/18/journalists-condemn-surprise-shake-up-no-10-lobby-briefings

    To me that does not look like a thing that will help the Downing Street comms strategy deliver what they perhaps need - unless there is more to come alongside these changes.

    There has long been a strand in politics that dislikes the lobby system and wants to replace it with open press briefings like they'd seen every week on The West Wing. Is this the next step on this path? Of course, Boris's government came close until ‘that’ rehearsal was leaked during the pandemic.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,569
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is quite an interesting project.
    What do our PB historians made of it ?

    https://x.com/joachim_voth/status/2001688613055267204
    How did people in 1913 see the world? How did they think about the future? We trained LLMs exclusively on pre-1913 texts—no Wikipedia, no 20/20. The model literally doesn't know WWI happened. Announcing the Ranke-4B family of models. Coming soon: https://github.com/DGoettlich/history-llms

    A point made forcefully by many historians, for example Michael Bentley. 'Politicians of that era (1905-1914) had no reason to think that they needed to complete everything before the chiming of some solemn midnight hour in 1914...diaries of Liberal politicians (in spring 1914) have an optimistic future tense reference to the election of 1915...in their imagination, those young men in the summer of 1914 rode the crest of an open future.'

    An idea of how people thought and felt in any era can be gained by reading newspapers of the period for several days*, and the results are usually interesting. AI is doing the same thing, just quicker.

    *Something that will be to put it mildly more challenging for historians of our own times.
    Not just 'quicker', but with potentially far broader reach in terms of reading.
    Like all AIs, it will be a fallible tool which needs someone with actual knowledge of a given period to use most effectively, but it might be quite a powerful one, since it could/can have access to a vast amount of texts in any language.

    (Consider, for example, the massive volumes of Korean court histories, which on their own might otherwise require a lifetime of study.)
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,903
    edited 9:18AM
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Not quite sure how Badenoch's "standing with Labour voters" counts for much when there are now so few Labour voters? (9 of them in the Cornish by-election overnight...)

    The question is about 2024 (not current) Labour voters.
    Which is definitely a WTF? metric. Like asking the voting intentions of Betamax owners...
    I know that you want to depict the catastrophic Tory defeat of July 2024 as ancient history, but it is only 18 months ago.

    The Tories have gone backwards against a disasterously unpopular government, and are heading for another drubbing in the May elections.
    Outside of the narrow YouGov metric, the story for 2025 is that - certainly since early summer - Labour's vote has been eaten by the Greens. The Tories' rise has mirrored the drop in the Reform vote. The LibDems have flat lined.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Opinion_polling_graph_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election_(post-2024).svg

    The Tories are now averaging ahead of Labour, for the first time in yonks. Labour are at risk of being reeled in by the Greens. I know you want to depict the Tories as dead, but that may not be the story of 2026-8.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,075
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The Green surge is the one that Yougov didn't really explore in this article, perhaps because Polanski only came to prominence mid year.

    Its obvious that while Badenoch continues to shed support to Farage, Polanski continues to gain supporters from Starmer. The Greens are where those former Labour voters have gone.

    Incidentally Polanski is also the most popular of the party leaders, albeit slightly negative and 49% not taking a view.

    I think there will be a lot of attention to the Greens in 2026, particularly they are likely to do well in the May elections in England.

    Good morning

    The Greens are a problem for the left including the lib dems but anyone who supports Polanski's promises is no better than those supporting Farage

    Both are extreme and incoherent
    I dont expect The Only Tory in the PB Village to like Polanski or his policies, but certainly the story of the year politically is the Labour to Green swing over the year, which is double the size of the Con to Reform swing.
    The Greens appear to have siphoned off a significant part of the Labour left.

    I expect that will end what little credibility they retained as a serious environmental movement, but more interesting is whether or not that split in the left of centre vote will persist into the next election.
    What does a credible & serious environmental movement look like? There seem to be various possibilities even within these isles. What’s clear is that if you limit yourself to just environmental issues it’ pretty much gives the mainstream a licence to ignore you.

    I think PBers have occasionally spoken approvingly of the German Greens. Their most prominent politician of recent times, Baerbock, seems to have become part of the German establishment, right down to adopting their unblinking support of every action of Israel. She’s now president of the UN General Assembly. At least Polanski is unlikely to take that path.
    I'm not sure that approval was for their environmental policies. For example, the shuttering of Germany's nuclear plants, which they strongly supported, was deeply misconceived from an environmental POV.

    Support or opposition to Israel hasn't much, if anything at all to do with environmentalism.

    But you raise a good question. What might the policies be of a serious Green Party which aspired to actually govern effectively, and was motivated primarily by environmental pragmatism ?
    It’s unrealistic to expect politicians to be single issuers. In fact one might ask how well other parties have embodied their founding principles recently, eg conservatism, support for the working classes, liberalism and indeed advancing Scottish independence. Reform have speeded up the process by giving every appearance of not reforming anything the moment they get a palsied hand on a lever of power.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,497
    edited 9:21AM
    algarkirk said:

    The government that claims it is cutting out national debt is no borrowing more than ever

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/dec/19/uk-government-borrowing-november-rachel-reeves-budget-economy

    On R4 Today Rajan was interviewing Andrew Bailey after 8 am this morning - in general a model of decent interviewing which puts Rajan in a class well above the other Today presenters.

    However when he turned to debt, and the issue of at what point it becomes unsustainable, Bailey twice gave thoughtful and considered replies which failed to touch on the question in any way at all. After which Rajan turned to the subject of, IIRC, Christmas ties.

    It felt, no doubt wrongly, to this listener, that there was an interview deal: the question would be asked and not answered, and no attention drawn to the yawning gap.

    If it isn't Bailey's job to have a view on this, whose is it? And at what point does debt become unsustainable?
    Yes, excellent interview by Rajan that was. And a clear and concise summary of the big picture issues from Bailey. Anybody thinking things can be radically improved in any period short of decades if only whoever is in government does XYZ ought to listen to it.

    Re the debt burden, there's no good answer to the question, "when does it become unsustainable?". Technically it's sustainable for as long as we can service it but there's more to it than that. Eg if the financial constraints it creates are leading the public to consider voting populist chancers and fantasists into government you could argue it's already become politically unsustainable.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 2,039

    Dopermean said:

    malcolmg said:

    The government that claims it is cutting out national debt is no borrowing more than ever

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/dec/19/uk-government-borrowing-november-rachel-reeves-budget-economy

    You surprise me Alan
    This lot truly are a bunch of crooks.

    They dosh up their mates and make the rest of us foot the bill.
    This may be true Alan, but in which respects does this differ from their predecessors?
    In that Alan is wrong and the previous administration, specifically the Johnson era, was far far worse?

    Mone, David Mellor (not that one!), Andrew Mills, Cummings, Gove, Hancock, Chadlington, is just a small number of the spivs who made millions from PPE that was unfit for purpose and politicians who at the very least did not deal with perceived conflicts of interest properly.

    If Alan is able to point to any Labour ministers or advisers guilty of similar then they should be investigated and dealt with.
    I see your problem. You cant actually point to how this government is performing to the level they claimed they would so you have to look backwards.

    Where's the growth, where's the housebuilding, where's the debt reduction ?

    There isnt any.

    Not yet no, but none of that is corruption it's underperformance.

    "They dosh up their mates and make the rest of us foot the bill" is what the Johnson govt did to the tune of £billions.

    Labour has had some scandals, which they have dealt with in the main, Rayner, Siddique, Mandelson, but mainly they've just been a bit crap and not delivered on promises.

    You should be glad, just think how angry you'd be if Labour were delivering on their manifesto promises, they might even be popular.
  • FossFoss Posts: 2,164

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is quite an interesting project.
    What do our PB historians made of it ?

    https://x.com/joachim_voth/status/2001688613055267204
    How did people in 1913 see the world? How did they think about the future? We trained LLMs exclusively on pre-1913 texts—no Wikipedia, no 20/20. The model literally doesn't know WWI happened. Announcing the Ranke-4B family of models. Coming soon: https://github.com/DGoettlich/history-llms

    A point made forcefully by many historians, for example Michael Bentley. 'Politicians of that era (1905-1914) had no reason to think that they needed to complete everything before the chiming of some solemn midnight hour in 1914...diaries of Liberal politicians (in spring 1914) have an optimistic future tense reference to the election of 1915...in their imagination, those young men in the summer of 1914 rode the crest of an open future.'

    An idea of how people thought and felt in any era can be gained by reading newspapers of the period for several days*, and the results are usually interesting. AI is doing the same thing, just quicker.

    *Something that will be to put it mildly more challenging for historians of our own times.
    They'll just need to read pb.com...
    A date settable PB LLM based on headers and comments would be quite interesting in itself. Google Trends picks up on flu before it becomes apparent in Gov statistics, it’s possible we might be able to pick up other underlying trends from deep analysis of free text before they occur.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,501
    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is quite an interesting project.
    What do our PB historians made of it ?

    https://x.com/joachim_voth/status/2001688613055267204
    How did people in 1913 see the world? How did they think about the future? We trained LLMs exclusively on pre-1913 texts—no Wikipedia, no 20/20. The model literally doesn't know WWI happened. Announcing the Ranke-4B family of models. Coming soon: https://github.com/DGoettlich/history-llms

    Could well be an interesting experiment on whether the training container is leak proof.
    Juliet Nicolson, The Perfect Summer, England 1911 is a beautiful book on the theme. Larkin's MCMXIV captures it wonderfully:

    Those long uneven lines
    Standing as patiently
    As if they were stretched outside
    The Oval or Villa Park,
    The crowns of hats, the sun
    On moustached archaic faces
    Grinning as if it were all
    An August Bank Holiday lark;

    And the shut shops, the bleached
    Established names on the sunblinds,
    The farthings and sovereigns,
    And dark-clothed children at play
    Called after kings and queens,
    The tin advertisements
    For cocoa and twist, and the pubs
    Wide open all day;

    And the countryside not caring
    The place-names all hazed over
    With flowering grasses, and fields
    Shadowing Domesday lines
    Under wheats' restless silence;
    The differently-dressed servants
    With tiny rooms in huge houses,
    The dust behind limousines;

    Never such innocence,
    Never before or since,
    As changed itself to past
    Without a word—the men
    Leaving the gardens tidy,
    The thousands of marriages
    Lasting a little while longer:
    Never such innocence again.
    It is worth noting that the summer of 1914 was a very fine one, with excellent weather and the prospect of a harvest comparable to that of 1913 (which had been very good - in fact, the Soviet Union didn't surpass the harvest of 1913 until the 1950s). This was followed by a series of wet, cold and miserable summers through the war which is an astonishing example of actual pathetic fallacy.

    This tended to inspire further nostalgia about the halcyon final days of peace, followed by the greyness and grimness of war, which rather drew a veil over memories of the disasters brewing in Ireland and the coal industry.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 57,147
    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is quite an interesting project.
    What do our PB historians made of it ?

    https://x.com/joachim_voth/status/2001688613055267204
    How did people in 1913 see the world? How did they think about the future? We trained LLMs exclusively on pre-1913 texts—no Wikipedia, no 20/20. The model literally doesn't know WWI happened. Announcing the Ranke-4B family of models. Coming soon: https://github.com/DGoettlich/history-llms

    Could well be an interesting experiment on whether the training container is leak proof.
    Juliet Nicolson, The Perfect Summer, England 1911 is a beautiful book on the theme. Larkin's MCMXIV captures it wonderfully:

    Those long uneven lines
    Standing as patiently
    As if they were stretched outside
    The Oval or Villa Park,
    The crowns of hats, the sun
    On moustached archaic faces
    Grinning as if it were all
    An August Bank Holiday lark;

    And the shut shops, the bleached
    Established names on the sunblinds,
    The farthings and sovereigns,
    And dark-clothed children at play
    Called after kings and queens,
    The tin advertisements
    For cocoa and twist, and the pubs
    Wide open all day;

    And the countryside not caring
    The place-names all hazed over
    With flowering grasses, and fields
    Shadowing Domesday lines
    Under wheats' restless silence;
    The differently-dressed servants
    With tiny rooms in huge houses,
    The dust behind limousines;

    Never such innocence,
    Never before or since,
    As changed itself to past
    Without a word—the men
    Leaving the gardens tidy,
    The thousands of marriages
    Lasting a little while longer:
    Never such innocence again.
    Oh that last verse. You forget how good Larkin was.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,290
    edited 9:30AM
    algarkirk said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is quite an interesting project.
    What do our PB historians made of it ?

    https://x.com/joachim_voth/status/2001688613055267204
    How did people in 1913 see the world? How did they think about the future? We trained LLMs exclusively on pre-1913 texts—no Wikipedia, no 20/20. The model literally doesn't know WWI happened. Announcing the Ranke-4B family of models. Coming soon: https://github.com/DGoettlich/history-llms

    This is what makes diaries so amazing. Pepys's (1660-1669) having no idea until 1666 that the fire will render the City of London he writes about for six years mostly non existent. For pre WW1 and how it felt running up to it in ignorance my favourite is a real obscurity, the diary of Bishop Edward Lee Hicks (1910-1919), a boring teetotal bishop of Lincoln who stalks his diocese by train.

    (NB He visited Algarkirk on 12th March 1914).

    That's interesting, thank-you - and it is only 40 years after Francis Kilvert. I'm not familiar with Bishop Hicks, who should have been known as Hicks from the Sticks but unfortunately probably was not so dubbed, but I'd expect a Bishop of Lincoln to be using the train in the 1910s.

    Looking him he's interesting as a Liberal teetotaller and campaigner for women's suffrage, with a weekly article in the Manchester Guardian. He was old - appointed at 67 and died in post at 77. Archbishop Randolf Davidson thought him "faddish".

    By 1910 Lincoln Diocese had shrunk; up until 1884 it included Nottinghamshire.

    My favourite example of knowledge "bound by what is available online" is everyone who has been quoting and linking to "The Catholic Encyclopaedia" as an authoritative source on everything Roman Catholic since the 1990s, which is is actually the 1913-15 edition transcribed largely by hand * - so is perhaps overweight in the "interesting" nature of Victorian Roman Catholic opinion. I've been mentioning it in places for decades, but no one has been interested; easy availability overrules homework. They literally miss out on the entirety of modern research and scholarship.

    It's ironic that we now have a Governing movement in the USA which in measure wants to live in that period.

    * https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/00002a.htm
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,083

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Not quite sure how Badenoch's "standing with Labour voters" counts for much when there are now so few Labour voters? (9 of them in the Cornish by-election overnight...)

    The question is about 2024 (not current) Labour voters.
    Which is definitely a WTF? metric. Like asking the voting intentions of Betamax owners...
    I know that you want to depict the catastrophic Tory defeat of July 2024 as ancient history, but it is only 18 months ago.

    The Tories have gone backwards against a disasterously unpopular government, and are heading for another drubbing in the May elections.
    Outside of the narrow YouGov metric, the story for 2025 is that - certainly since early summer - Labour's vote has been eaten by the Greens. The Tories' rise has mirrored the drop in the Reform vote. The LibDems have flat lined.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Opinion_polling_graph_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election_(post-2024).svg

    The Tories are now averaging ahead of Labour, for the first time in yonks. Labour are at risk of being reeled in by the Greens. I know you want to depict the Tories as dead, but that may not be the story of 2026-8.
    True, of course, but the Tory story of 2025 is not rise but fall.

    In the longer run Labour, despite their continuing fall have slightly less to fear than the Tories. If the Tories are unlucky Reform will demolish them. There is no one party that looks, at this moment, that it can eat Labour.

    Both may yet be demolished, and both may yet regain their top slots, but the Tory position (I have voted for them for 50 years but not now, and would really like them to recover their sanity) is more dangerous than Labour's.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 47,111
    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    fitalass said:

    The last PB post by TSE was 'Will this bug John Swinney and the SNP until election day?', and here is the thing while TSE used a humourous play on the latest SNP scandal, it should have been a far bigger story here with far more scrutiny because of the implications for the Holyrood Parliament. But it won't be because frustratingly it involves a really shocking scandal that involves one of our devolved governments...

    So the PB thread like the UK main stream media totally ignored it, literal tumble weed here and elsewhere, special shout out to SkyNews for mentioning it but doing sod all else to investigate it. Now just imagine if this had been a governing party at Westminster where now THREE female elected MPs had been reported to have had their offices bugged by party staffers?! I have no doubt that the Westminster Lobby would have been all over the story and it would have been wall to wall coverage in the 24/7 News channels, especially when the original breaking story reported that the male aid who bugged one female MSP had since moved to work for an SNP MP?!

    Sorry TSE but I was really annoyed when you almost affectionately made fun of and dismissed this shocking scandal, and it is incredible serious story that should have resulted in not only a Parliamentary investigation, but a Police investigation too. I said early yesterday that Holyrood was not only broken, it really is not fit for purpose and that matters with a big election looming there in May next year and I stand by that claim today more than ever. But again I was just so saddened and frustrated at the lack of response here or in the media, not even the most basic questions asked. And to say this scandal stinks is an understatement, no one has asked why or to what end these female SNP MSPs who remain anonymous were bugged, but the Scottish Sun is reporting it suggests internal SNP infighting.

    But the cynic in me after 18 eighteen years of this appalling SNP Government did have one question, why did it take until yesterday for this breaking story to finally see the light of day just as Holyrood went into Christmas recess and both politicians and political journalists departed to go on their festive holidays until the New Year.. Its almost as if this story finally having to break was stage managed so it would hopefully get the least attention or any proper scrutiny by the Holyrood Parliament, the local media or the public. This is how the SNP operate, totally secretive and utterly ruthless in their media management and so cynically in their media operation but they get away with it time and time again because Scotland is deemed a side show despite the fact that they control so much of our public services up here and including taxation when it comes to budgets but we like Wales and NI are totally failed by the UK media!

    And the PB crew fell for it yet again yesterday because they were not even interested.... Oh to be a female MSP in the work place at Holyrood right now!

    Seems to be a national rather than solely PB thing.
    Here, for example, is the Guardian's Scotland page:
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/scotland
    They're the national most likely to run with the story, and so far, crickets.

    A quick google throws up only the Scottish Sun:
    https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/15705778/female-snp-msps-bugged-male-aides-spying-scandal/

    I suspect that this might be one of those stories which takes a few days (or even weeks, given the impending Xmas break) to gain some momentum.
    Er, more than that.

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/25710475.female-msps-say-bugged-male-staffers/
    https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/at-least-three-female-snp-msps-say-they-were-bugged-by-male-aides-5448975?ref=ed_direct

    And Herald, DT, DM, DE(Scot), BBC, Sky.

    The BBC report appears to be little more than a rehash of the Scotsman story.
    The national media haven't yet really got started on this, I think ?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czdg21yq833o.amp
    Depends how you define national! I tend to use 'Scottish' and 'London-based' if only tio avoid ambguity.

    Sure, rehashing, but clearly the story isn't being ignored. I think rather as @AugustusCarp2 and @TSE made clear nobody has any idea what is going on or cui bono. And I suppose if one lets speculation rip regardless then there's the risk of a defamation or even contempt action - remember the identification by elimination precedent of a few years back.

    BTW the original Scotsman tweet was ambiguous - at least one other report seems to make clear the (first?) alleged bugging was done by someone acting as a MSP staffer, not a SNP party staffer, ie direct employee of the individual MSP using SP funding. Not that it changes the demerits of the alleged action, but it's worth considering the practical and legal implications.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 57,147
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is quite an interesting project.
    What do our PB historians made of it ?

    https://x.com/joachim_voth/status/2001688613055267204
    How did people in 1913 see the world? How did they think about the future? We trained LLMs exclusively on pre-1913 texts—no Wikipedia, no 20/20. The model literally doesn't know WWI happened. Announcing the Ranke-4B family of models. Coming soon: https://github.com/DGoettlich/history-llms

    A point made forcefully by many historians, for example Michael Bentley. 'Politicians of that era (1905-1914) had no reason to think that they needed to complete everything before the chiming of some solemn midnight hour in 1914...diaries of Liberal politicians (in spring 1914) have an optimistic future tense reference to the election of 1915...in their imagination, those young men in the summer of 1914 rode the crest of an open future.'

    An idea of how people thought and felt in any era can be gained by reading newspapers of the period for several days*, and the results are usually interesting. AI is doing the same thing, just quicker.

    *Something that will be to put it mildly more challenging for historians of our own times.
    Not just 'quicker', but with potentially far broader reach in terms of reading.
    Like all AIs, it will be a fallible tool which needs someone with actual knowledge of a given period to use most effectively, but it might be quite a powerful one, since it could/can have access to a vast amount of texts in any language.

    (Consider, for example, the massive volumes of Korean court histories, which on their own might otherwise require a lifetime of study.)
    When I was at University the library still had either the hard copy or a microfiche (showing my age here) of the Times newspapers and one of the many ways I would amuse myself when law got too boring was to read the newspapers in the run up to some significant event, such as the American civil war or WW1 and get an idea of how the informed people of the time saw things. My recollection, and this was 45 years ago now, was that many people saw trouble with Germany as inevitable. We had already had the race to build Dreadnaughts and there were concerns about whether the RN was as dominant as it had been for the last century. No one foresaw the bloodbath to come that I recall.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,083
    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is quite an interesting project.
    What do our PB historians made of it ?

    https://x.com/joachim_voth/status/2001688613055267204
    How did people in 1913 see the world? How did they think about the future? We trained LLMs exclusively on pre-1913 texts—no Wikipedia, no 20/20. The model literally doesn't know WWI happened. Announcing the Ranke-4B family of models. Coming soon: https://github.com/DGoettlich/history-llms

    Could well be an interesting experiment on whether the training container is leak proof.
    Juliet Nicolson, The Perfect Summer, England 1911 is a beautiful book on the theme. Larkin's MCMXIV captures it wonderfully:

    Those long uneven lines
    Standing as patiently
    As if they were stretched outside
    The Oval or Villa Park,
    The crowns of hats, the sun
    On moustached archaic faces
    Grinning as if it were all
    An August Bank Holiday lark;

    And the shut shops, the bleached
    Established names on the sunblinds,
    The farthings and sovereigns,
    And dark-clothed children at play
    Called after kings and queens,
    The tin advertisements
    For cocoa and twist, and the pubs
    Wide open all day;

    And the countryside not caring
    The place-names all hazed over
    With flowering grasses, and fields
    Shadowing Domesday lines
    Under wheats' restless silence;
    The differently-dressed servants
    With tiny rooms in huge houses,
    The dust behind limousines;

    Never such innocence,
    Never before or since,
    As changed itself to past
    Without a word—the men
    Leaving the gardens tidy,
    The thousands of marriages
    Lasting a little while longer:
    Never such innocence again.
    Oh that last verse. You forget how good Larkin was.
    Not if you keep 'The Whitsun Weddings' and 'High Windows' by the bed.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 47,111
    ydoethur said:

    algarkirk said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is quite an interesting project.
    What do our PB historians made of it ?

    https://x.com/joachim_voth/status/2001688613055267204
    How did people in 1913 see the world? How did they think about the future? We trained LLMs exclusively on pre-1913 texts—no Wikipedia, no 20/20. The model literally doesn't know WWI happened. Announcing the Ranke-4B family of models. Coming soon: https://github.com/DGoettlich/history-llms

    Could well be an interesting experiment on whether the training container is leak proof.
    Juliet Nicolson, The Perfect Summer, England 1911 is a beautiful book on the theme. Larkin's MCMXIV captures it wonderfully:

    Those long uneven lines
    Standing as patiently
    As if they were stretched outside
    The Oval or Villa Park,
    The crowns of hats, the sun
    On moustached archaic faces
    Grinning as if it were all
    An August Bank Holiday lark;

    And the shut shops, the bleached
    Established names on the sunblinds,
    The farthings and sovereigns,
    And dark-clothed children at play
    Called after kings and queens,
    The tin advertisements
    For cocoa and twist, and the pubs
    Wide open all day;

    And the countryside not caring
    The place-names all hazed over
    With flowering grasses, and fields
    Shadowing Domesday lines
    Under wheats' restless silence;
    The differently-dressed servants
    With tiny rooms in huge houses,
    The dust behind limousines;

    Never such innocence,
    Never before or since,
    As changed itself to past
    Without a word—the men
    Leaving the gardens tidy,
    The thousands of marriages
    Lasting a little while longer:
    Never such innocence again.
    It is worth noting that the summer of 1914 was a very fine one, with excellent weather and the prospect of a harvest comparable to that of 1913 (which had been very good - in fact, the Soviet Union didn't surpass the harvest of 1913 until the 1950s). This was followed by a series of wet, cold and miserable summers through the war which is an astonishing example of actual pathetic fallacy.

    This tended to inspire further nostalgia about the halcyon final days of peace, followed by the greyness and grimness of war, which rather drew a veil over memories of the disasters brewing in Ireland and the coal industry.
    They were indeed preparing for civil war in Ireland and rather desperately hoping that recent administrative devolution in Scotland would stave off the Scots wanting independence (or at least self-governing dominion status).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,501
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is quite an interesting project.
    What do our PB historians made of it ?

    https://x.com/joachim_voth/status/2001688613055267204
    How did people in 1913 see the world? How did they think about the future? We trained LLMs exclusively on pre-1913 texts—no Wikipedia, no 20/20. The model literally doesn't know WWI happened. Announcing the Ranke-4B family of models. Coming soon: https://github.com/DGoettlich/history-llms

    A point made forcefully by many historians, for example Michael Bentley. 'Politicians of that era (1905-1914) had no reason to think that they needed to complete everything before the chiming of some solemn midnight hour in 1914...diaries of Liberal politicians (in spring 1914) have an optimistic future tense reference to the election of 1915...in their imagination, those young men in the summer of 1914 rode the crest of an open future.'

    An idea of how people thought and felt in any era can be gained by reading newspapers of the period for several days*, and the results are usually interesting. AI is doing the same thing, just quicker.

    *Something that will be to put it mildly more challenging for historians of our own times.
    Not just 'quicker', but with potentially far broader reach in terms of reading.
    Like all AIs, it will be a fallible tool which needs someone with actual knowledge of a given period to use most effectively, but it might be quite a powerful one, since it could/can have access to a vast amount of texts in any language.

    (Consider, for example, the massive volumes of Korean court histories, which on their own might otherwise require a lifetime of study.)
    When I was at University the library still had either the hard copy or a microfiche (showing my age here) of the Times newspapers and one of the many ways I would amuse myself when law got too boring was to read the newspapers in the run up to some significant event, such as the American civil war or WW1 and get an idea of how the informed people of the time saw things. My recollection, and this was 45 years ago now, was that many people saw trouble with Germany as inevitable. We had already had the race to build Dreadnaughts and there were concerns about whether the RN was as dominant as it had been for the last century. No one foresaw the bloodbath to come that I recall.
    Well, it probably was inevitable largely because the Kaiser wanted it. But as you say few foresaw the extent or the grimness of it. They expected perhaps something similar to the Napoleonic or Crimean wars where a small British Army would play a specialist role to back up the French and Russians, while the Navy throttled the German economy. Also, there was no special reason among the British to think it would happen in 1914. (Again, German government records paint a rather different picture.)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 47,111
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is quite an interesting project.
    What do our PB historians made of it ?

    https://x.com/joachim_voth/status/2001688613055267204
    How did people in 1913 see the world? How did they think about the future? We trained LLMs exclusively on pre-1913 texts—no Wikipedia, no 20/20. The model literally doesn't know WWI happened. Announcing the Ranke-4B family of models. Coming soon: https://github.com/DGoettlich/history-llms

    A point made forcefully by many historians, for example Michael Bentley. 'Politicians of that era (1905-1914) had no reason to think that they needed to complete everything before the chiming of some solemn midnight hour in 1914...diaries of Liberal politicians (in spring 1914) have an optimistic future tense reference to the election of 1915...in their imagination, those young men in the summer of 1914 rode the crest of an open future.'

    An idea of how people thought and felt in any era can be gained by reading newspapers of the period for several days*, and the results are usually interesting. AI is doing the same thing, just quicker.

    *Something that will be to put it mildly more challenging for historians of our own times.
    Not just 'quicker', but with potentially far broader reach in terms of reading.
    Like all AIs, it will be a fallible tool which needs someone with actual knowledge of a given period to use most effectively, but it might be quite a powerful one, since it could/can have access to a vast amount of texts in any language.

    (Consider, for example, the massive volumes of Korean court histories, which on their own might otherwise require a lifetime of study.)
    When I was at University the library still had either the hard copy or a microfiche (showing my age here) of the Times newspapers and one of the many ways I would amuse myself when law got too boring was to read the newspapers in the run up to some significant event, such as the American civil war or WW1 and get an idea of how the informed people of the time saw things. My recollection, and this was 45 years ago now, was that many people saw trouble with Germany as inevitable. We had already had the race to build Dreadnaughts and there were concerns about whether the RN was as dominant as it had been for the last century. No one foresaw the bloodbath to come that I recall.
    Everyone was expecting a Trafalgar- or to be more topical Tsushima-like conclusive battle in the North Sea as the key feature of UK vs the Second Reich, perhaps with a German invasion of Essex thrown in ... all those German butchers and German confectioners in Epping ...
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 26,090
    Dopermean said:

    Dopermean said:

    malcolmg said:

    The government that claims it is cutting out national debt is no borrowing more than ever

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/dec/19/uk-government-borrowing-november-rachel-reeves-budget-economy

    You surprise me Alan
    This lot truly are a bunch of crooks.

    They dosh up their mates and make the rest of us foot the bill.
    This may be true Alan, but in which respects does this differ from their predecessors?
    In that Alan is wrong and the previous administration, specifically the Johnson era, was far far worse?

    Mone, David Mellor (not that one!), Andrew Mills, Cummings, Gove, Hancock, Chadlington, is just a small number of the spivs who made millions from PPE that was unfit for purpose and politicians who at the very least did not deal with perceived conflicts of interest properly.

    If Alan is able to point to any Labour ministers or advisers guilty of similar then they should be investigated and dealt with.
    I see your problem. You cant actually point to how this government is performing to the level they claimed they would so you have to look backwards.

    Where's the growth, where's the housebuilding, where's the debt reduction ?

    There isnt any.

    Not yet no, but none of that is corruption it's underperformance.

    "They dosh up their mates and make the rest of us foot the bill" is what the Johnson govt did to the tune of £billions.

    Labour has had some scandals, which they have dealt with in the main, Rayner, Siddique, Mandelson, but mainly they've just been a bit crap and not delivered on promises.

    You should be glad, just think how angry you'd be if Labour were delivering on their manifesto promises, they might even be popular.
    Well if overpaying the public sector isnt doshi9ng up their mates what is ? Or changing legislation to suit their main funders in the unions ? Which everyone in the private sector will end up footing the bill. Whereas anything touched by Lord Alli usually fails the sniff test.

    But at least you can accept this is a failing government and there is no prospect short term of things improving.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,083
    MattW said:

    algarkirk said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is quite an interesting project.
    What do our PB historians made of it ?

    https://x.com/joachim_voth/status/2001688613055267204
    How did people in 1913 see the world? How did they think about the future? We trained LLMs exclusively on pre-1913 texts—no Wikipedia, no 20/20. The model literally doesn't know WWI happened. Announcing the Ranke-4B family of models. Coming soon: https://github.com/DGoettlich/history-llms

    This is what makes diaries so amazing. Pepys's (1660-1669) having no idea until 1666 that the fire will render the City of London he writes about for six years mostly non existent. For pre WW1 and how it felt running up to it in ignorance my favourite is a real obscurity, the diary of Bishop Edward Lee Hicks (1910-1919), a boring teetotal bishop of Lincoln who stalks his diocese by train.

    (NB He visited Algarkirk on 12th March 1914).

    That's interesting, thank-you - and it is only 40 years after Francis Kilvert. I'm not familiar with Bishop Hicks, who should have been known as Hicks from the Sticks but unfortunately probably was not so dubbed, but I'd expect a Bishop of Lincoln to be using the train in the 1910s.

    Looking him he's interesting as a Liberal teetotaller and campaigner for women's suffrage, with a weekly article in the Manchester Guardian. He was old - appointed at 67 and died in post at 77. Archbishop Randolf Davidson thought him "faddish".

    By 1910 Lincoln Diocese had shrunk; up until 1884 it included Nottinghamshire.

    My favourite example of knowledge "bound by what is available online" is everyone who has been quoting and linking to "The Catholic Encyclopaedia" as an authoritative source on everything Roman Catholic since the 1990s, which is is actually the 1913-15 edition transcribed largely by hand * - so is perhaps overweight in the "interesting" nature of Victorian Roman Catholic opinion. I've been mentioning it in places for decades, but no one has been interested; easy availability overrules homework. They literally miss out on the entirety of modern research and scholarship.

    It's ironic that we now have a Governing movement in the USA which in measure wants to live in that period.

    * https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/00002a.htm
    The diaries, edited by Graham Neville and published by the Lincoln Record Society and available, are a gem for Lincolnshire/rural railway routes/teetotal liberal bishops fans. There is also a biography, which is worthy but dull like the man, published in the last 20 years or so by OUP.

    (The Lincoln Record Society are a good deed in a bad world. Long may they prosper.)

  • FossFoss Posts: 2,164
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is quite an interesting project.
    What do our PB historians made of it ?

    https://x.com/joachim_voth/status/2001688613055267204
    How did people in 1913 see the world? How did they think about the future? We trained LLMs exclusively on pre-1913 texts—no Wikipedia, no 20/20. The model literally doesn't know WWI happened. Announcing the Ranke-4B family of models. Coming soon: https://github.com/DGoettlich/history-llms

    A point made forcefully by many historians, for example Michael Bentley. 'Politicians of that era (1905-1914) had no reason to think that they needed to complete everything before the chiming of some solemn midnight hour in 1914...diaries of Liberal politicians (in spring 1914) have an optimistic future tense reference to the election of 1915...in their imagination, those young men in the summer of 1914 rode the crest of an open future.'

    An idea of how people thought and felt in any era can be gained by reading newspapers of the period for several days*, and the results are usually interesting. AI is doing the same thing, just quicker.

    *Something that will be to put it mildly more challenging for historians of our own times.
    Not just 'quicker', but with potentially far broader reach in terms of reading.
    Like all AIs, it will be a fallible tool which needs someone with actual knowledge of a given period to use most effectively, but it might be quite a powerful one, since it could/can have access to a vast amount of texts in any language.

    (Consider, for example, the massive volumes of Korean court histories, which on their own might otherwise require a lifetime of study.)
    When I was at University the library still had either the hard copy or a microfiche (showing my age here) of the Times newspapers and one of the many ways I would amuse myself when law got too boring was to read the newspapers in the run up to some significant event, such as the American civil war or WW1 and get an idea of how the informed people of the time saw things. My recollection, and this was 45 years ago now, was that many people saw trouble with Germany as inevitable. We had already had the race to build Dreadnaughts and there were concerns about whether the RN was as dominant as it had been for the last century. No one foresaw the bloodbath to come that I recall.
    Archive.org has a good block of scans of British newspapers from the 70s/80s/90s if you fancy going back and re-living the mid to late Cold War and then the End of History.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,450
    edited 9:37AM

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Not quite sure how Badenoch's "standing with Labour voters" counts for much when there are now so few Labour voters? (9 of them in the Cornish by-election overnight...)

    The question is about 2024 (not current) Labour voters.
    Which is definitely a WTF? metric. Like asking the voting intentions of Betamax owners...
    I know that you want to depict the catastrophic Tory defeat of July 2024 as ancient history, but it is only 18 months ago.

    The Tories have gone backwards against a disasterously unpopular government, and are heading for another drubbing in the May elections.
    Outside of the narrow YouGov metric, the story for 2025 is that - certainly since early summer - Labour's vote has been eaten by the Greens. The Tories' rise has mirrored the drop in the Reform vote. The LibDems have flat lined.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Opinion_polling_graph_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election_(post-2024).svg

    The Tories are now averaging ahead of Labour, for the first time in yonks. Labour are at risk of being reeled in by the Greens. I know you want to depict the Tories as dead, but that may not be the story of 2026-8.
    Yes, but it isn't a rise that is putting the Tories higher than Labour, it is that Labour is sinking even faster than the Tories.

    To be polling 7% worse than the worst Tory election result in 2 centuries is not good for the Tories.

    It isn't just the polling that shows this very poor mid term performance by the Tories it is also the almost weekly defections of former Tory MPs and councillors to Reform. They know that their only way back into elected positions is to defect to another party.

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,263
    History of train tickets in 70 seconds:-
    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/8SLZ9w4tiKc

    One for @Sunil_Prasannan
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