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A little bit of history repeating? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,846
edited December 17 in General
A little bit of history repeating? – politicalbetting.com

Every passing day confirms that Kamala Harris would have been a better president than Donald Trump but that doesn’t mean she should try and run in 2028. In many ways she was a poor candidate which I expect will be exposed in the primaries in 2028.

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Comments

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 36,416
    First

    And Kamala: No, just don't.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 36,416
    She's going to end up looking like a power propellerhead.
  • Apologies for the horrendous tautology on the previous thread.

    I promise not to use 'lawyerly brilliance' again.
  • She's going to end up looking like a power propellerhead.

    Yay, somebody spotted my subtle music reference in the headline.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,062
    Christ, that Jane Austen style shipping forecast on R4 is total cringe. If they didn’t cobble it together using AI they made every effort to make it sound as if they did.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 45,488

    Apologies for the horrendous tautology on the previous thread.

    I promise not to use 'lawyerly brilliance' again.

    Only a lawyer could use 'tautology' when 'oxymoron' is required.
    forget the oxy
  • 'Every passing day confirms that Kamala Harris would have been a better president than Donald Trump.'

    The office cat would have been a better President, but Kamala will do if that's all the Dems can come up with.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 36,416

    She's going to end up looking like a power propellerhead.

    Yay, somebody spotted my subtle music reference in the headline.
    Perhaps Kamala is inspired by our great Tiger Bay diva never to give up. But shirley she can't be serious?

    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/DULMCjYgE90
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,512

    Apologies for the horrendous tautology on the previous thread.

    I promise not to use 'lawyerly brilliance' again.

    Have you ever ? 😏
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,512
    edited December 17

    Christ, that Jane Austen style shipping forecast on R4 is total cringe. If they didn’t cobble it together using AI they made every effort to make it sound as if they did.

    Those are the moments that R3 is made for.

    Bach Before 7, for instance, is a great way of avoiding the pre-7am BBC program trailers.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,315
    Btw, Mr. Eagles, some bad news (for you): the horrendously awful MOM acronym is being binned by F1, possibly due to universal loathing and derision.

    Saw a vid yesterday covering some jargon shifts ahead of 2026.
  • Btw, Mr. Eagles, some bad news (for you): the horrendously awful MOM acronym is being binned by F1, possibly due to universal loathing and derision.

    Saw a vid yesterday covering some jargon shifts ahead of 2026.

    There was some other excellent news in F1 this week as well.

    No more Dutch grands prix, so no home advantage for the Dutch shunt.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,887

    Btw, Mr. Eagles, some bad news (for you): the horrendously awful MOM acronym is being binned by F1, possibly due to universal loathing and derision.

    Saw a vid yesterday covering some jargon shifts ahead of 2026.

    TSE will be fine - as long as they don't ban the use of Step-MOM...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,425
    Some of the financial engineering around AI is quite eyebrow raising.

    https://bsky.app/profile/ajaxsinger.bsky.social/post/3ma4hc6vbns2b

    https://bsky.app/profile/theatlantic.com/post/3m7vtljw3ro2g

    It all looks a bit Enron/Sub-prime to me.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,479
    Presumably this time she will need to go through the full nomination process rather than it being an automatic thing.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,425
    I see inflation is down sharply at 3.2%.

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,913

    Christ, that Jane Austen style shipping forecast on R4 is total cringe. If they didn’t cobble it together using AI they made every effort to make it sound as if they did.

    I find it impentrable but restful. It's good if some things don't change!
  • eekeek Posts: 32,170
    Foxy said:

    Some of the financial engineering around AI is quite eyebrow raising.

    https://bsky.app/profile/ajaxsinger.bsky.social/post/3ma4hc6vbns2b

    https://bsky.app/profile/theatlantic.com/post/3m7vtljw3ro2g

    It all looks a bit Enron/Sub-prime to me.

    Nvidia have already had to issue a press release that says they aren't Enron see https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/c63740c2809e5d55
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,425

    Christ, that Jane Austen style shipping forecast on R4 is total cringe. If they didn’t cobble it together using AI they made every effort to make it sound as if they did.

    I find it impentrable but restful. It's good if some things don't change!
    It's a weird yet comforting incantation to wake up to.

    Moderate to good.
  • TazTaz Posts: 23,078
    Foxy said:

    I see inflation is down sharply at 3.2%.

    So still 60% above the 2% target.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,801

    Btw, Mr. Eagles, some bad news (for you): the horrendously awful MOM acronym is being binned by F1, possibly due to universal loathing and derision.

    Saw a vid yesterday covering some jargon shifts ahead of 2026.

    TSE will be fine - as long as they don't ban the use of Step-MOM...
    If the Democrats can’t come up with anyone better than Kamala Harris (or Gavin Newsom) in 2028, they’re going to get the stepmom treatment from the electorate again.
  • MelonBMelonB Posts: 16,553
    Foxy said:

    Christ, that Jane Austen style shipping forecast on R4 is total cringe. If they didn’t cobble it together using AI they made every effort to make it sound as if they did.

    I find it impentrable but restful. It's good if some things don't change!
    It's a weird yet comforting incantation to wake up to.

    Moderate to good.
    The Jane Austin style “comedy” version this morning was, as they say, poor.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 5,084
    Foxy said:

    Christ, that Jane Austen style shipping forecast on R4 is total cringe. If they didn’t cobble it together using AI they made every effort to make it sound as if they did.

    I find it impentrable but restful. It's good if some things don't change!
    It's a weird yet comforting incantation to wake up to.

    Moderate to good.
    i used to listen before I went to sleep, after Sailing By.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,943

    Foxy said:

    Christ, that Jane Austen style shipping forecast on R4 is total cringe. If they didn’t cobble it together using AI they made every effort to make it sound as if they did.

    I find it impentrable but restful. It's good if some things don't change!
    It's a weird yet comforting incantation to wake up to.

    Moderate to good.
    i used to listen before I went to sleep, after Sailing By.
    Sailing By always makes me feel immensely melancholy for some reason.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,674
    Inflation minus 0.2% in November, bringing the annual rate down to 3.2%. I expect that'll continue to fall down towards target by the middle of next year.

    BoE certain to cut rates to 3.75% tomorrow and we're likely to see further cuts next year.
  • MelonBMelonB Posts: 16,553
    And good morning. I’ve taken the step to self-ID as MelonB (the short form of the grape variety Melon de Bourgogne) after being cheerfully rumbled last week by a “business associate”.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 41,298
    The only advantage of running Kamala again is to say to the electorate they have a chance to undo Trump. They picked the wrong one last time, they can rectify that this time.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,943
    MelonB said:

    And good morning. I’ve taken the step to self-ID as MelonB (the short form of the grape variety Melon de Bourgogne) after being cheerfully rumbled last week by a “business associate”.

    I thought it was a fruity tribute to the Spice Girls.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,325
    MelonB said:

    And good morning. I’ve taken the step to self-ID as MelonB (the short form of the grape variety Melon de Bourgogne) after being cheerfully rumbled last week by a “business associate”.

    Scary Spice?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 57,138
    Ratters said:

    Inflation minus 0.2% in November, bringing the annual rate down to 3.2%. I expect that'll continue to fall down towards target by the middle of next year.

    BoE certain to cut rates to 3.75% tomorrow and we're likely to see further cuts next year.

    You're probably right, these figures have changed the balance. But the 10 year gilt is still at 4.5% and the illusion of control that the base rate gives us is weakened if the gap between the two becomes too great. I acknowledge that I am somewhat hawkish about these things but personally I would be voting no change tomorrow.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 57,138
    Foxy said:

    Christ, that Jane Austen style shipping forecast on R4 is total cringe. If they didn’t cobble it together using AI they made every effort to make it sound as if they did.

    I find it impentrable but restful. It's good if some things don't change!
    It's a weird yet comforting incantation to wake up to.

    Moderate to good.
    Precipitation within sight was always one of my favourites. Described a fair bit of Scotland a fair bit of the time.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,062

    Christ, that Jane Austen style shipping forecast on R4 is total cringe. If they didn’t cobble it together using AI they made every effort to make it sound as if they did.

    I find it impentrable but restful. It's good if some things don't change!
    Indeed, but not ‘in the style of’.

    Irving Berlin

    There may be trouble ahead..


    George Orwell

    Wind force 13, blowing into a human face - forever.




  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,882

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Where do we go from here ?

    Do we accept our new vassal status to the US as the Trump administration attempts to dismember the EU and redraw Europe's boundaries in collaboration with Putin ?

    Or do we side with Europe ?

    It not at all clear there's any way of avoiding the very uncomfortable choices coming up, long before any prospect of a change of leadership in the US (assuming that's still allowed to happen).

    There is no way of avoiding the choices.

    Europe needs someone to step up.

    Merz is the best hope. We shall see if he has the balls and the brains to realise the world the world has changed.
    I'd agree with you.
    I'm just curious what the rest of PB makes of it.
    Business as usual doesn't seem an option.
    I think Gardenwalker's idea of an Anglo-Canadian Union was the right sort of scale of response needed.

    It's very concerning that it looks like the EU will be unable to agree to seize Russian assets. That would indicate that the EU is not a reliable partner when it comes to confronting Russian aggression, weakened too much by quisling countries like Hungary, parochial self-interests, and weak links who can be easily intimidated by third countries. And a Le Pen victory in France will only make that worse.

    So we have to draw close to whichever friendly countries are left, to gain the scale to stand against those powers that are a threat to our freedoms.
    The British government hasn't seized the 25 billion quid of frozen Russian assets in the UK so basically what the fuck are you on about? The UK isn't any better, or worse depending on where you fall on the Ultra - Realist spectrum, than the EU with its 'quisling countries'.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,325
    Scott_xP said:

    The only advantage of running Kamala again is to say to the electorate they have a chance to undo Trump. They picked the wrong one last time, they can rectify that this time.

    The electorate generally does not admit to making mistakes. The politicians make mistakes and fail them.

    The electorate will punish the Democrats if they put up Kamala again - "we told you no the first time and we meant it" - could be expected to be the tenor of the response.

    I wouldn't expect Kamala to get very far in the Democratic Primary though. She ran a weak campaign for the nomination for 2020. Someone close to her needs to make an intervention almost as much as someone close to Truss needs to step in there.

    If she wanted to be active in US politics there are several other ways she could contribute.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,994
    I think Trump's dire performance as President is in danger of making us forget what a dismal candidate Harris was. She never seemed to say why she wanted to be President, had no original or inspiring ideas and, when given the chance to put her point across, actively fled from the media.

    As I've said before, Democrats win when they have a charismatic bullshitter who inspires the young and the left without terrifying the centre and the middle-aged then lets them down in office - see Kennedy, Clinton, Obama. Trump may be so unpopular by 2028 that even Harris will win, or maybe she will be able to fake enough charisma, but the Democrats would be unwise to bank on that.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 2,032
    Nigelb said:

    Apologies for the horrendous tautology on the previous thread.

    I promise not to use 'lawyerly brilliance' again.

    Have you ever ? 😏
    I'd assumed it was a euphemism
    I intend to adopt it
  • MelonBMelonB Posts: 16,553

    MelonB said:

    And good morning. I’ve taken the step to self-ID as MelonB (the short form of the grape variety Melon de Bourgogne) after being cheerfully rumbled last week by a “business associate”.

    Scary Spice?
    I considered the shorter MelB but didn’t want to be accused of identity theft, or even worse of being, heaven forbid, a “man pretending to be a woman”.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,325
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Where do we go from here ?

    Do we accept our new vassal status to the US as the Trump administration attempts to dismember the EU and redraw Europe's boundaries in collaboration with Putin ?

    Or do we side with Europe ?

    It not at all clear there's any way of avoiding the very uncomfortable choices coming up, long before any prospect of a change of leadership in the US (assuming that's still allowed to happen).

    There is no way of avoiding the choices.

    Europe needs someone to step up.

    Merz is the best hope. We shall see if he has the balls and the brains to realise the world the world has changed.
    I'd agree with you.
    I'm just curious what the rest of PB makes of it.
    Business as usual doesn't seem an option.
    I think Gardenwalker's idea of an Anglo-Canadian Union was the right sort of scale of response needed.

    It's very concerning that it looks like the EU will be unable to agree to seize Russian assets. That would indicate that the EU is not a reliable partner when it comes to confronting Russian aggression, weakened too much by quisling countries like Hungary, parochial self-interests, and weak links who can be easily intimidated by third countries. And a Le Pen victory in France will only make that worse.

    So we have to draw close to whichever friendly countries are left, to gain the scale to stand against those powers that are a threat to our freedoms.
    The British government hasn't seized the 25 billion quid of frozen Russian assets in the UK so basically what the fuck are you on about? The UK isn't any better, or worse depending on where you fall on the Ultra - Realist spectrum, than the EU with its 'quisling countries'.
    I don't think it's unreasonable for Britain to want to act at the same time as other countries who hold Russian assets.

    That's why I regret to Britain gaining scale, as being larger makes it easier to act unilaterally. An Anglo-Canadian Union would find it easier to act unilaterally than Britain does alone.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,801

    Scott_xP said:

    The only advantage of running Kamala again is to say to the electorate they have a chance to undo Trump. They picked the wrong one last time, they can rectify that this time.

    The electorate generally does not admit to making mistakes. The politicians make mistakes and fail them.

    The electorate will punish the Democrats if they put up Kamala again - "we told you no the first time and we meant it" - could be expected to be the tenor of the response.

    I wouldn't expect Kamala to get very far in the Democratic Primary though. She ran a weak campaign for the nomination for 2020. Someone close to her needs to make an intervention almost as much as someone close to Truss needs to step in there.

    If she wanted to be active in US politics there are several other ways she could contribute.
    Newsom is about to time out as governor of California, she’d be better off running for that if she wants to stay in politics.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 57,138
    Fishing said:

    I think Trump's dire performance as President is in danger of making us forget what a dismal candidate Harris was. She never seemed to say why she wanted to be President, had no original or inspiring ideas and, when given the chance to put her point across, actively fled from the media.

    As I've said before, Democrats win when they have a charismatic bullshitter who inspires the young and the left without terrifying the centre and the middle-aged then lets them down in office - see Kennedy, Clinton, Obama. Trump may be so unpopular by 2028 that even Harris will win, or maybe she will be able to fake enough charisma, but the Democrats would be unwise to bank on that.

    I think she made a serious mistake in not going for Governor of California. She needs to show she is capable of running things and VPs just don't. She held the AG post there before with reasonable aplomb but she needed a bigger stage and to prove that she was capable of being a winner (even on a home pitch). My guess is that she might end up Secretary of State if the Dems win the White House again.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,943

    Christ, that Jane Austen style shipping forecast on R4 is total cringe. If they didn’t cobble it together using AI they made every effort to make it sound as if they did.

    I find it impentrable but restful. It's good if some things don't change!
    Indeed, but not ‘in the style of’.

    Irving Berlin

    There may be trouble ahead..


    George Orwell

    Wind force 13, blowing into a human face - forever.




    Both of yours are better than the Austen japes this morning.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,887
    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Christ, that Jane Austen style shipping forecast on R4 is total cringe. If they didn’t cobble it together using AI they made every effort to make it sound as if they did.

    I find it impentrable but restful. It's good if some things don't change!
    It's a weird yet comforting incantation to wake up to.

    Moderate to good.
    i used to listen before I went to sleep, after Sailing By.
    Sailing By always makes me feel immensely melancholy for some reason.
    It is redolent of a quieter, safer, more innocent time that maybe never existed, but regardless is a world away from the reality of life today.

  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 15,056
    edited December 17
    Fishing said:

    I think Trump's dire performance as President is in danger of making us forget what a dismal candidate Harris was. She never seemed to say why she wanted to be President, had no original or inspiring ideas and, when given the chance to put her point across, actively fled from the media.

    As I've said before, Democrats win when they have a charismatic bullshitter who inspires the young and the left without terrifying the centre and the middle-aged then lets them down in office - see Kennedy, Clinton, Obama. Trump may be so unpopular by 2028 that even Harris will win, or maybe she will be able to fake enough charisma, but the Democrats would be unwise to bank on that.

    For all their faults Kennedy, Clinton, & Obama were three of the most outstanding political leaders of my lifetime. The only potential candidate coming anywhere near now is Buttigieg.

    What do you think?
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,761
    Nigelb said:

    Christ, that Jane Austen style shipping forecast on R4 is total cringe. If they didn’t cobble it together using AI they made every effort to make it sound as if they did.

    Those are the moments that R3 is made for.

    Bach Before 7, for instance, is a great way of avoiding the pre-7am BBC program trailers.
    Bach Before Seven would be much more better if it didn't lead directly into News About Trump.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,943

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Christ, that Jane Austen style shipping forecast on R4 is total cringe. If they didn’t cobble it together using AI they made every effort to make it sound as if they did.

    I find it impentrable but restful. It's good if some things don't change!
    It's a weird yet comforting incantation to wake up to.

    Moderate to good.
    i used to listen before I went to sleep, after Sailing By.
    Sailing By always makes me feel immensely melancholy for some reason.
    It is redolent of a quieter, safer, more innocent time that maybe never existed, but regardless is a world away from the reality of life today.

    Yes, also I think that as the majority of people would have only likely heard it whilst awake in the dark of the night it’s not associated with, for example, sunny days on the beach.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Where do we go from here ?

    Do we accept our new vassal status to the US as the Trump administration attempts to dismember the EU and redraw Europe's boundaries in collaboration with Putin ?

    Or do we side with Europe ?

    It not at all clear there's any way of avoiding the very uncomfortable choices coming up, long before any prospect of a change of leadership in the US (assuming that's still allowed to happen).

    There is no way of avoiding the choices.

    Europe needs someone to step up.

    Merz is the best hope. We shall see if he has the balls and the brains to realise the world the world has changed.
    I'd agree with you.
    I'm just curious what the rest of PB makes of it.
    Business as usual doesn't seem an option.
    I think Gardenwalker's idea of an Anglo-Canadian Union was the right sort of scale of response needed.

    It's very concerning that it looks like the EU will be unable to agree to seize Russian assets. That would indicate that the EU is not a reliable partner when it comes to confronting Russian aggression, weakened too much by quisling countries like Hungary, parochial self-interests, and weak links who can be easily intimidated by third countries. And a Le Pen victory in France will only make that worse.

    So we have to draw close to whichever friendly countries are left, to gain the scale to stand against those powers that are a threat to our freedoms.
    The British government hasn't seized the 25 billion quid of frozen Russian assets in the UK so basically what the fuck are you on about? The UK isn't any better, or worse depending on where you fall on the Ultra - Realist spectrum, than the EU with its 'quisling countries'.
    I don't think it's unreasonable for Britain to want to act at the same time as other countries who hold Russian assets.

    That's why I regret to Britain gaining scale, as being larger makes it easier to act unilaterally. An Anglo-Canadian Union would find it easier to act unilaterally than Britain does alone.
    Hey, but what about our Sovereignity?

    We left the world's largest and most successful free trade association to protect that. We going to give it up now to row in with Canada?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 69,273

    Fishing said:

    I think Trump's dire performance as President is in danger of making us forget what a dismal candidate Harris was. She never seemed to say why she wanted to be President, had no original or inspiring ideas and, when given the chance to put her point across, actively fled from the media.

    As I've said before, Democrats win when they have a charismatic bullshitter who inspires the young and the left without terrifying the centre and the middle-aged then lets them down in office - see Kennedy, Clinton, Obama. Trump may be so unpopular by 2028 that even Harris will win, or maybe she will be able to fake enough charisma, but the Democrats would be unwise to bank on that.

    For all their faults Kennedy, Clinton, & Obama were three of the most outstanding political leaders of my lifetime. The only potential candidate coming anywhere near now is Buttigieg.

    What do you think?
    Sadly, I just can't see how Buttigieg gets through the primaries in the South.

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,325

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Where do we go from here ?

    Do we accept our new vassal status to the US as the Trump administration attempts to dismember the EU and redraw Europe's boundaries in collaboration with Putin ?

    Or do we side with Europe ?

    It not at all clear there's any way of avoiding the very uncomfortable choices coming up, long before any prospect of a change of leadership in the US (assuming that's still allowed to happen).

    There is no way of avoiding the choices.

    Europe needs someone to step up.

    Merz is the best hope. We shall see if he has the balls and the brains to realise the world the world has changed.
    I'd agree with you.
    I'm just curious what the rest of PB makes of it.
    Business as usual doesn't seem an option.
    I think Gardenwalker's idea of an Anglo-Canadian Union was the right sort of scale of response needed.

    It's very concerning that it looks like the EU will be unable to agree to seize Russian assets. That would indicate that the EU is not a reliable partner when it comes to confronting Russian aggression, weakened too much by quisling countries like Hungary, parochial self-interests, and weak links who can be easily intimidated by third countries. And a Le Pen victory in France will only make that worse.

    So we have to draw close to whichever friendly countries are left, to gain the scale to stand against those powers that are a threat to our freedoms.
    The British government hasn't seized the 25 billion quid of frozen Russian assets in the UK so basically what the fuck are you on about? The UK isn't any better, or worse depending on where you fall on the Ultra - Realist spectrum, than the EU with its 'quisling countries'.
    I don't think it's unreasonable for Britain to want to act at the same time as other countries who hold Russian assets.

    That's why I regret to Britain gaining scale, as being larger makes it easier to act unilaterally. An Anglo-Canadian Union would find it easier to act unilaterally than Britain does alone.
    Hey, but what about our Sovereignity?

    We left the world's largest and most successful free trade association to protect that. We going to give it up now to row in with Canada?
    The Canadians fought alongside Britain in the struggle to liberate France from German conquest. A Union with Canada would be quite different to a Union with France and Germany.

    And, in my view, one of the defects of the European Union is that it's not a proper Union which can act as one, but a looser confederation that finds itself paralysed at moments of crisis.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,994
    edited December 17

    Fishing said:

    I think Trump's dire performance as President is in danger of making us forget what a dismal candidate Harris was. She never seemed to say why she wanted to be President, had no original or inspiring ideas and, when given the chance to put her point across, actively fled from the media.

    As I've said before, Democrats win when they have a charismatic bullshitter who inspires the young and the left without terrifying the centre and the middle-aged then lets them down in office - see Kennedy, Clinton, Obama. Trump may be so unpopular by 2028 that even Harris will win, or maybe she will be able to fake enough charisma, but the Democrats would be unwise to bank on that.

    For all their faults Kennedy, Clinton, & Obama were three of the most outstanding political leaders of my lifetime. The only potential candidate coming anywhere near now is Buttigieg.

    What do you think?
    It depends what you mean by "leader". They were good at inspiring people, bad at delivering their promises. Obama achieved essentially nothing in eight years, apart from a half-baked healthcare reform, which, when you remember the hopes he inspired in 2008, is truly remarkable, and he was succeeded by Donald Trump. Many of Clinton's achievements, in particular welfare reform, were actually Republican wet dreams.

    I think that repeatedly inspiring people with uplifting but vacuous drivel about "change" then letting them down, rather than telling them uncomfortable truths and being realistic about what can be delivered, is actually bad for democracy, and one of the reasons why it is discredited in many countries. It only works in the short term - it got Obama and Clinton elected, but their agendas both stalled quickly in Congress, and then they suffered devastating setbacks in the midterms - we forget today just how remarkable the 1994 and 2010 elections were - especially 1994.

    I agree the Democrat field isn't exactly bursting with inspiring and charismatic leaders.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,674
    edited December 17
    DavidL said:

    Ratters said:

    Inflation minus 0.2% in November, bringing the annual rate down to 3.2%. I expect that'll continue to fall down towards target by the middle of next year.

    BoE certain to cut rates to 3.75% tomorrow and we're likely to see further cuts next year.

    You're probably right, these figures have changed the balance. But the 10 year gilt is still at 4.5% and the illusion of control that the base rate gives us is weakened if the gap between the two becomes too great. I acknowledge that I am somewhat hawkish about these things but personally I would be voting no change tomorrow.
    There is a fiscal question and a monetary question.

    The government's borrowing costs for 10-year and longer lending is driven in part by the amount of borrowing they need to do, rather than expectations that the BoE will need to hike rates again. That's no business of the BoE. The 10-year swap rate is around 4.0% so not dissimilar to short-term rates.

    On the monetary side, we can see 1) falling headline and core inflation, 2) rising unemployment, 3) weak economy, 4) Trump tariffs which should be disinflationary here at the margins for imports from third countries. And unlike last year, the budget was a nothing event for future inflation.

    My guess is we see base rates down at 3% by the end of next year.
  • MelonB said:

    And good morning. I’ve taken the step to self-ID as MelonB (the short form of the grape variety Melon de Bourgogne) after being cheerfully rumbled last week by a “business associate”.

    If it's a grape, why is it called a melon? Which toilet should it use?
  • MelonBMelonB Posts: 16,553

    Fishing said:

    I think Trump's dire performance as President is in danger of making us forget what a dismal candidate Harris was. She never seemed to say why she wanted to be President, had no original or inspiring ideas and, when given the chance to put her point across, actively fled from the media.

    As I've said before, Democrats win when they have a charismatic bullshitter who inspires the young and the left without terrifying the centre and the middle-aged then lets them down in office - see Kennedy, Clinton, Obama. Trump may be so unpopular by 2028 that even Harris will win, or maybe she will be able to fake enough charisma, but the Democrats would be unwise to bank on that.

    For all their faults Kennedy, Clinton, & Obama were three of the most outstanding political leaders of my lifetime. The only potential candidate coming anywhere near now is Buttigieg.

    What do you think?
    Sadly, I just can't see how Buttigieg gets through the primaries in the South.

    Do we have polling on that? There have been various primary polls.
    I like him, but a centrist Brit liking someone doesn’t necessarily bode well for US presidential ambitions.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,801

    Fishing said:

    I think Trump's dire performance as President is in danger of making us forget what a dismal candidate Harris was. She never seemed to say why she wanted to be President, had no original or inspiring ideas and, when given the chance to put her point across, actively fled from the media.

    As I've said before, Democrats win when they have a charismatic bullshitter who inspires the young and the left without terrifying the centre and the middle-aged then lets them down in office - see Kennedy, Clinton, Obama. Trump may be so unpopular by 2028 that even Harris will win, or maybe she will be able to fake enough charisma, but the Democrats would be unwise to bank on that.

    For all their faults Kennedy, Clinton, & Obama were three of the most outstanding political leaders of my lifetime. The only potential candidate coming anywhere near now is Buttigieg.

    What do you think?
    The nominee Polymarket, with $300m+ traded so far, is very weird.

    https://polymarket.com/event/democratic-presidential-nominee-2028

    The two favourites are Newsom and AOC, and I don’t see how either of them get there. Middle America isn’t voting for a very coastal liberal.

    Gretchen Whitmer at 50/1 could be a good outsider, and they’ll want to keep at least one woman in the race for as long as possible. Josh Shapiro is probably underpriced at 20/1, as is Andy Beshear at 33/1.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,828

    MelonB said:

    And good morning. I’ve taken the step to self-ID as MelonB (the short form of the grape variety Melon de Bourgogne) after being cheerfully rumbled last week by a “business associate”.

    Scary Spice?
    (Same) Old Spice, I think
  • Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    I think Trump's dire performance as President is in danger of making us forget what a dismal candidate Harris was. She never seemed to say why she wanted to be President, had no original or inspiring ideas and, when given the chance to put her point across, actively fled from the media.

    As I've said before, Democrats win when they have a charismatic bullshitter who inspires the young and the left without terrifying the centre and the middle-aged then lets them down in office - see Kennedy, Clinton, Obama. Trump may be so unpopular by 2028 that even Harris will win, or maybe she will be able to fake enough charisma, but the Democrats would be unwise to bank on that.

    For all their faults Kennedy, Clinton, & Obama were three of the most outstanding political leaders of my lifetime. The only potential candidate coming anywhere near now is Buttigieg.

    What do you think?
    It depends what you mean by "leader". They were good at inspiring people, bad at delivering their promises. Obama achieved essentially nothing in eight years, apart from a half-baked healthcare reform, which, when you remember the hopes he inspired in 2008, is truly remarkable, and he was succeeded by Donald Trump. Many of Clinton's achievements, in particular welfare reform, were actually Republican wet dreams.

    I think that repeatedly inspiring people with uplifting but vacuous drivel about "change" then letting them down, rather than telling them uncomfortable truths and being realistic about what can be delivered, is actually bad for democracy, and one of the reasons why it is discredited in many countries. It only works in the short term - it got Obama and Clinton elected, but their agendas both stalled quickly in Congress, and then they suffered devastating setbacks in the midterms - we forget today just how remarkable the 1994 and 2010 elections were - especially 1994.

    I agree the Democrat field isn't exactly bursting with inspiring and charismatic leaders.
    Yes, Clinton was America Blair. He could easily have been a Republican – let the banks rip, 3 strikes, extend the death penalty. He did try to fix the American economy though, which is a most un-Republican thing to do.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,529
    On thread - of course Harris would have been better as president for the USA and the world than Trump - but she was a bloody awful candidate. Why do the Dems keep putting forward candidates Americans are so keen to vote against?
  • Sandpit said:

    Fishing said:

    I think Trump's dire performance as President is in danger of making us forget what a dismal candidate Harris was. She never seemed to say why she wanted to be President, had no original or inspiring ideas and, when given the chance to put her point across, actively fled from the media.

    As I've said before, Democrats win when they have a charismatic bullshitter who inspires the young and the left without terrifying the centre and the middle-aged then lets them down in office - see Kennedy, Clinton, Obama. Trump may be so unpopular by 2028 that even Harris will win, or maybe she will be able to fake enough charisma, but the Democrats would be unwise to bank on that.

    For all their faults Kennedy, Clinton, & Obama were three of the most outstanding political leaders of my lifetime. The only potential candidate coming anywhere near now is Buttigieg.

    What do you think?
    The nominee Polymarket, with $300m+ traded so far, is very weird.

    https://polymarket.com/event/democratic-presidential-nominee-2028

    The two favourites are Newsom and AOC, and I don’t see how either of them get there. Middle America isn’t voting for a very coastal liberal.

    Gretchen Whitmer at 50/1 could be a good outsider, and they’ll want to keep at least one woman in the race for as long as possible. Josh Shapiro is probably underpriced at 20/1, as is Andy Beshear at 33/1.
    Middle America doesn't come into it. This is the nominee market.
  • Fishing said:

    I think Trump's dire performance as President is in danger of making us forget what a dismal candidate Harris was. She never seemed to say why she wanted to be President, had no original or inspiring ideas and, when given the chance to put her point across, actively fled from the media.

    As I've said before, Democrats win when they have a charismatic bullshitter who inspires the young and the left without terrifying the centre and the middle-aged then lets them down in office - see Kennedy, Clinton, Obama. Trump may be so unpopular by 2028 that even Harris will win, or maybe she will be able to fake enough charisma, but the Democrats would be unwise to bank on that.

    For all their faults Kennedy, Clinton, & Obama were three of the most outstanding political leaders of my lifetime. The only potential candidate coming anywhere near now is Buttigieg.

    What do you think?
    Sadly, I just can't see how Buttigieg gets through the primaries in the South.

    Buttigieg needs to first explain why he repeatedly lied about Biden's fitness for office.

    He can then explain what he achieved himself as transport secretary for four years.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 57,138
    So, 126 is already the target to avoid the follow on. Don't want Australia getting too many more...
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,529
    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Christ, that Jane Austen style shipping forecast on R4 is total cringe. If they didn’t cobble it together using AI they made every effort to make it sound as if they did.

    I find it impentrable but restful. It's good if some things don't change!
    It's a weird yet comforting incantation to wake up to.

    Moderate to good.
    i used to listen before I went to sleep, after Sailing By.
    Sailing By always makes me feel immensely melancholy for some reason.
    It is redolent of a quieter, safer, more innocent time that maybe never existed, but regardless is a world away from the reality of life today.

    Yes, also I think that as the majority of people would have only likely heard it whilst awake in the dark of the night it’s not associated with, for example, sunny days on the beach.
    I used to like it when cricket commentary would break off for it. Quite apart from the poetry of it, a reminder that what your attention on was only a game.

    And like others, I enjoy listening to it late at night, in bed - a moment to reflect on your fortunes at being 30 miles inland and not in colossal seas in South East Iceland.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 69,273

    Fishing said:

    I think Trump's dire performance as President is in danger of making us forget what a dismal candidate Harris was. She never seemed to say why she wanted to be President, had no original or inspiring ideas and, when given the chance to put her point across, actively fled from the media.

    As I've said before, Democrats win when they have a charismatic bullshitter who inspires the young and the left without terrifying the centre and the middle-aged then lets them down in office - see Kennedy, Clinton, Obama. Trump may be so unpopular by 2028 that even Harris will win, or maybe she will be able to fake enough charisma, but the Democrats would be unwise to bank on that.

    For all their faults Kennedy, Clinton, & Obama were three of the most outstanding political leaders of my lifetime. The only potential candidate coming anywhere near now is Buttigieg.

    What do you think?
    Sadly, I just can't see how Buttigieg gets through the primaries in the South.

    Buttigieg needs to first explain why he repeatedly lied about Biden's fitness for office.

    He can then explain what he achieved himself as transport secretary for four years.
    Doubt either of those will any kind of factor in the 2027/8 primaries.

  • Fishing said:

    I think Trump's dire performance as President is in danger of making us forget what a dismal candidate Harris was. She never seemed to say why she wanted to be President, had no original or inspiring ideas and, when given the chance to put her point across, actively fled from the media.

    As I've said before, Democrats win when they have a charismatic bullshitter who inspires the young and the left without terrifying the centre and the middle-aged then lets them down in office - see Kennedy, Clinton, Obama. Trump may be so unpopular by 2028 that even Harris will win, or maybe she will be able to fake enough charisma, but the Democrats would be unwise to bank on that.

    Harris had neither ideas nor any interest in campaigning on Biden's achievements.

    She should have been to a different Biden subsidised new factory every day.

    Instead she left an open goal for Trump to say that Biden's strategy had failed.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 45,488
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Christ, that Jane Austen style shipping forecast on R4 is total cringe. If they didn’t cobble it together using AI they made every effort to make it sound as if they did.

    I find it impentrable but restful. It's good if some things don't change!
    It's a weird yet comforting incantation to wake up to.

    Moderate to good.
    Precipitation within sight was always one of my favourites. Described a fair bit of Scotland a fair bit of the time.
    Last night here for sure along with gale force winds.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,592
    Harris lost the popular vote by a mere 1.5%. She got a higher share of the popular vote than Trump did in 2016, than Dubya did in 2000, or than Bill Clinton did in 1992.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,592
    boulay said:

    MelonB said:

    And good morning. I’ve taken the step to self-ID as MelonB (the short form of the grape variety Melon de Bourgogne) after being cheerfully rumbled last week by a “business associate”.

    I thought it was a fruity tribute to the Spice Girls.
    I thought it was a misspelling of Dayna Mellanby, the character from Blake’s 7.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,943
    Cookie said:

    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    Christ, that Jane Austen style shipping forecast on R4 is total cringe. If they didn’t cobble it together using AI they made every effort to make it sound as if they did.

    I find it impentrable but restful. It's good if some things don't change!
    It's a weird yet comforting incantation to wake up to.

    Moderate to good.
    i used to listen before I went to sleep, after Sailing By.
    Sailing By always makes me feel immensely melancholy for some reason.
    It is redolent of a quieter, safer, more innocent time that maybe never existed, but regardless is a world away from the reality of life today.

    Yes, also I think that as the majority of people would have only likely heard it whilst awake in the dark of the night it’s not associated with, for example, sunny days on the beach.
    I used to like it when cricket commentary would break off for it. Quite apart from the poetry of it, a reminder that what your attention on was only a game.

    And like others, I enjoy listening to it late at night, in bed - a moment to reflect on your fortunes at being 30 miles inland and not in colossal seas in South East Iceland.
    I have the joy of being able to listen to the morning one and then check their work by looking out of my bedroom window and seeing the sea - I don’t mind what the sea conditions are at this time of year as I won’t be out on it but the wind conditions are of interest when planning the day.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 57,138
    Ratters said:

    DavidL said:

    Ratters said:

    Inflation minus 0.2% in November, bringing the annual rate down to 3.2%. I expect that'll continue to fall down towards target by the middle of next year.

    BoE certain to cut rates to 3.75% tomorrow and we're likely to see further cuts next year.

    You're probably right, these figures have changed the balance. But the 10 year gilt is still at 4.5% and the illusion of control that the base rate gives us is weakened if the gap between the two becomes too great. I acknowledge that I am somewhat hawkish about these things but personally I would be voting no change tomorrow.
    There is a fiscal question and a monetary question.

    The government's borrowing costs for 10-year and longer lending is driven in part by the amount of borrowing they need to do, rather than expectations that the BoE will need to hike rates again. That's no business of the BoE. The 10-year swap rate is around 4.0% so not dissimilar to short-term rates.

    On the monetary side, we can see 1) falling headline and core inflation, 2) rising unemployment, 3) weak economy, 4) Trump tariffs which should be disinflationary here at the margins for imports from third countries. And unlike last year, the budget was a nothing event for future inflation.

    My guess is we see base rates down at 3% by the end of next year.
    I agree with some of that.

    The bits I don't are that it is not just the quantity of borrowing required but the gradually increasing risk premium attached to UK gilts given our inability to bring borrowing under control and to get spending in line with income. The longer we allow that to continue the higher that premium is going to get and this budget was a step in the wrong direction. The increase in the NMW announced at the budget will also have secondary inflation effects.

    I think that this is a problem for nearly all western countries, not just the UK. I think that those with surpluses to invest are going to become increasingly nervous about our ability to service and repay the debts we are incurring. The temptation to resort to unconventional means, such as QE, will be strong as will be the temptation to have a burst of inflation to reduce the debt burden. Western bonds are going to become increasingly hard to sell.
  • Fishing said:

    I think Trump's dire performance as President is in danger of making us forget what a dismal candidate Harris was. She never seemed to say why she wanted to be President, had no original or inspiring ideas and, when given the chance to put her point across, actively fled from the media.

    As I've said before, Democrats win when they have a charismatic bullshitter who inspires the young and the left without terrifying the centre and the middle-aged then lets them down in office - see Kennedy, Clinton, Obama. Trump may be so unpopular by 2028 that even Harris will win, or maybe she will be able to fake enough charisma, but the Democrats would be unwise to bank on that.

    For all their faults Kennedy, Clinton, & Obama were three of the most outstanding political leaders of my lifetime. The only potential candidate coming anywhere near now is Buttigieg.

    What do you think?
    Sadly, I just can't see how Buttigieg gets through the primaries in the South.

    Buttigieg needs to first explain why he repeatedly lied about Biden's fitness for office.

    He can then explain what he achieved himself as transport secretary for four years.
    Doubt either of those will any kind of factor in the 2027/8 primaries.

    Perhaps not.

    But if Buttigieg is nominated he'll be asked them.

    Because what else would be on Buttigieg's record.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,512

    Fishing said:

    I think Trump's dire performance as President is in danger of making us forget what a dismal candidate Harris was. She never seemed to say why she wanted to be President, had no original or inspiring ideas and, when given the chance to put her point across, actively fled from the media.

    As I've said before, Democrats win when they have a charismatic bullshitter who inspires the young and the left without terrifying the centre and the middle-aged then lets them down in office - see Kennedy, Clinton, Obama. Trump may be so unpopular by 2028 that even Harris will win, or maybe she will be able to fake enough charisma, but the Democrats would be unwise to bank on that.

    For all their faults Kennedy, Clinton, & Obama were three of the most outstanding political leaders of my lifetime. The only potential candidate coming anywhere near now is Buttigieg.

    What do you think?
    Sadly, I just can't see how Buttigieg gets through the primaries in the South.

    Buttigieg needs to first explain why he repeatedly lied about Biden's fitness for office.

    He can then explain what he achieved himself as transport secretary for four years.
    You'll be going on about Hunter Biden next.
    None of that is in the slightest bit relevant to Democratic primaries in three years time.

    Assuming the US still has a democracy (not 100% guaranteed), the record of the current administration will be uppermost in voters minds, and whoever has the best shot at uniting the Democrats is likely to get the nomination.

    I doubt that will be Harris, and on current form, it might just be Newsom. He's not exactly adored by the Democratic base, but he's getting traction for leading the opposition to Trump. Quite what he does after leaving the governor's office at the end of 2026 is an interesting question.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,135
    MelonB said:

    MelonB said:

    And good morning. I’ve taken the step to self-ID as MelonB (the short form of the grape variety Melon de Bourgogne) after being cheerfully rumbled last week by a “business associate”.

    Scary Spice?
    I considered the shorter MelB but didn’t want to be accused of identity theft, or even worse of being, heaven forbid, a “man pretending to be a woman”.
    You're self identifying as a fruit?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,445
    DavidL said:

    So, 126 is already the target to avoid the follow on. Don't want Australia getting too many more...

    Forgot the 3rd test had started last night - but I did dream that we absolutely rolled through Australia twice over and the series was level.
  • TazTaz Posts: 23,078

    Harris lost the popular vote by a mere 1.5%. She got a higher share of the popular vote than Trump did in 2016, than Dubya did in 2000, or than Bill Clinton did in 1992.

    That’s copium on a par with ‘Corbyn got a higher popular vote than Starmer’

    It doesn’t change the fact she lost and that she was a poor candidate.
  • TazTaz Posts: 23,078

    boulay said:

    MelonB said:

    And good morning. I’ve taken the step to self-ID as MelonB (the short form of the grape variety Melon de Bourgogne) after being cheerfully rumbled last week by a “business associate”.

    I thought it was a fruity tribute to the Spice Girls.
    I thought it was a misspelling of Dayna Mellanby, the character from Blake’s 7.
    I’d swear Josette Simon has a picture in her attic.

    She has aged superbly.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,592
    Meanwhile, Trump is writing unhinged Truth Social posts about Venezuela and the oil and land they stole from the US. No, I don’t know what he’s going on about either.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,592
    Taz said:

    Harris lost the popular vote by a mere 1.5%. She got a higher share of the popular vote than Trump did in 2016, than Dubya did in 2000, or than Bill Clinton did in 1992.

    That’s copium on a par with ‘Corbyn got a higher popular vote than Starmer’

    It doesn’t change the fact she lost and that she was a poor candidate.
    I suggest it is evidence that she was not as poor a candidate as some believe.
  • Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    I think Trump's dire performance as President is in danger of making us forget what a dismal candidate Harris was. She never seemed to say why she wanted to be President, had no original or inspiring ideas and, when given the chance to put her point across, actively fled from the media.

    As I've said before, Democrats win when they have a charismatic bullshitter who inspires the young and the left without terrifying the centre and the middle-aged then lets them down in office - see Kennedy, Clinton, Obama. Trump may be so unpopular by 2028 that even Harris will win, or maybe she will be able to fake enough charisma, but the Democrats would be unwise to bank on that.

    For all their faults Kennedy, Clinton, & Obama were three of the most outstanding political leaders of my lifetime. The only potential candidate coming anywhere near now is Buttigieg.

    What do you think?
    Sadly, I just can't see how Buttigieg gets through the primaries in the South.

    Buttigieg needs to first explain why he repeatedly lied about Biden's fitness for office.

    He can then explain what he achieved himself as transport secretary for four years.
    You'll be going on about Hunter Biden next.
    None of that is in the slightest bit relevant to Democratic primaries in three years time.

    Assuming the US still has a democracy (not 100% guaranteed), the record of the current administration will be uppermost in voters minds, and whoever has the best shot at uniting the Democrats is likely to get the nomination.

    I doubt that will be Harris, and on current form, it might just be Newsom. He's not exactly adored by the Democratic base, but he's getting traction for leading the opposition to Trump. Quite what he does after leaving the governor's office at the end of 2026 is an interesting question.
    Thanks for confirming how vulnerable Buttigieg is on his dismal record of lying and incompetence.

    And also thanks for reminding us of Hunter Biden, that great polymath whose PB defenders started with "Hunter Biden has done nothing wrong and is being politically persecuted" and ended at "Joe Biden will never give a presidential pardon to his son".
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,801
    DavidL said:

    So, 126 is already the target to avoid the follow on. Don't want Australia getting too many more...

    Always the optimist!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,801

    Harris lost the popular vote by a mere 1.5%. She got a higher share of the popular vote than Trump did in 2016, than Dubya did in 2000, or than Bill Clinton did in 1992.

    If they’d actually had primaries and nominated a candidate who wasn’t terrible, they might even have beaten Trump.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 132,154
    edited December 17
    I doubt Harris runs, the likes of Buttigieg and Newsom and even AOC have more chance of winning in 2028 than her. After 2004 some polls showed voters would on a re run vote for Kerry and after 2012 for Romney but both were sensible enough not to run again. Kerry instead became Secretary of State and Harris has already been VP of course
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,801

    Sandpit said:

    Fishing said:

    I think Trump's dire performance as President is in danger of making us forget what a dismal candidate Harris was. She never seemed to say why she wanted to be President, had no original or inspiring ideas and, when given the chance to put her point across, actively fled from the media.

    As I've said before, Democrats win when they have a charismatic bullshitter who inspires the young and the left without terrifying the centre and the middle-aged then lets them down in office - see Kennedy, Clinton, Obama. Trump may be so unpopular by 2028 that even Harris will win, or maybe she will be able to fake enough charisma, but the Democrats would be unwise to bank on that.

    For all their faults Kennedy, Clinton, & Obama were three of the most outstanding political leaders of my lifetime. The only potential candidate coming anywhere near now is Buttigieg.

    What do you think?
    The nominee Polymarket, with $300m+ traded so far, is very weird.

    https://polymarket.com/event/democratic-presidential-nominee-2028

    The two favourites are Newsom and AOC, and I don’t see how either of them get there. Middle America isn’t voting for a very coastal liberal.

    Gretchen Whitmer at 50/1 could be a good outsider, and they’ll want to keep at least one woman in the race for as long as possible. Josh Shapiro is probably underpriced at 20/1, as is Andy Beshear at 33/1.
    Middle America doesn't come into it. This is the nominee market.
    I do wonder if the Dem primary voters will even try and take into account the suitability of the candidates to beat a Republican (likely one of Rubio or Vance or DeSantis), or if they go for the most woke coastal ideologue that makes them feel warm and fuzzy inside?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 9,413
    Sandpit said:

    Harris lost the popular vote by a mere 1.5%. She got a higher share of the popular vote than Trump did in 2016, than Dubya did in 2000, or than Bill Clinton did in 1992.

    If they’d actually had primaries and nominated a candidate who wasn’t terrible, they might even have beaten Trump.
    Biden hanging on till the last moment didn't help

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 132,154
    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    I think Trump's dire performance as President is in danger of making us forget what a dismal candidate Harris was. She never seemed to say why she wanted to be President, had no original or inspiring ideas and, when given the chance to put her point across, actively fled from the media.

    As I've said before, Democrats win when they have a charismatic bullshitter who inspires the young and the left without terrifying the centre and the middle-aged then lets them down in office - see Kennedy, Clinton, Obama. Trump may be so unpopular by 2028 that even Harris will win, or maybe she will be able to fake enough charisma, but the Democrats would be unwise to bank on that.

    For all their faults Kennedy, Clinton, & Obama were three of the most outstanding political leaders of my lifetime. The only potential candidate coming anywhere near now is Buttigieg.

    What do you think?
    Sadly, I just can't see how Buttigieg gets through the primaries in the South.

    Buttigieg needs to first explain why he repeatedly lied about Biden's fitness for office.

    He can then explain what he achieved himself as transport secretary for four years.
    You'll be going on about Hunter Biden next.
    None of that is in the slightest bit relevant to Democratic primaries in three years time.

    Assuming the US still has a democracy (not 100% guaranteed), the record of the current administration will be uppermost in voters minds, and whoever has the best shot at uniting the Democrats is likely to get the nomination.

    I doubt that will be Harris, and on current form, it might just be Newsom. He's not exactly adored by the Democratic base, but he's getting traction for leading the opposition to Trump. Quite what he does after leaving the governor's office at the end of 2026 is an interesting question.
    The problem is Newsom doesn't poll so well in the early states like New Hampshire and South Carolina
  • PJH said:

    Taz said:

    Harris lost the popular vote by a mere 1.5%. She got a higher share of the popular vote than Trump did in 2016, than Dubya did in 2000, or than Bill Clinton did in 1992.

    That’s copium on a par with ‘Corbyn got a higher popular vote than Starmer’

    It doesn’t change the fact she lost and that she was a poor candidate.
    I suggest it is evidence that she was not as poor a candidate as some believe.

    Taz said:

    Harris lost the popular vote by a mere 1.5%. She got a higher share of the popular vote than Trump did in 2016, than Dubya did in 2000, or than Bill Clinton did in 1992.

    That’s copium on a par with ‘Corbyn got a higher popular vote than Starmer’

    It doesn’t change the fact she lost and that she was a poor candidate.
    I suggest it is evidence that she was not as poor a candidate as some believe.
    She was a far superior candidate to Trump. As would almost anyone have beenn.

    What seems odd to me is that a candidate from the left has to be both moderate and personally perfect in every way to stand a chance of winning, yet a candidate from the right can be any raving lunatic with no principles whatsoever and that's perfectly fine. And I say that as a centrist with no axe to grind for either side.
    You think that Joe Biden was 'personally perfect' in 2020 ?

    It was already obvious that he was too old.

    But that didn't matter as over 45% would vote Dem under any circumstance and there were enough swing voters who wanted a change in government.

    The reverse happened in 2024.

    And likely will reverse again in 2028.

    And then reverse again in 2032.
  • geoffw said:

    Sandpit said:

    Harris lost the popular vote by a mere 1.5%. She got a higher share of the popular vote than Trump did in 2016, than Dubya did in 2000, or than Bill Clinton did in 1992.

    If they’d actually had primaries and nominated a candidate who wasn’t terrible, they might even have beaten Trump.
    Biden hanging on till the last moment didn't help

    With the support of his cabinet and the Dem establishment.

    Compare how the cabinet and MPs forced Boris out here to the lickspittle loyalty Buttigieg and the others showed to Biden.
  • eekeek Posts: 32,170
    edited December 17
    PJH said:

    Taz said:

    Harris lost the popular vote by a mere 1.5%. She got a higher share of the popular vote than Trump did in 2016, than Dubya did in 2000, or than Bill Clinton did in 1992.

    That’s copium on a par with ‘Corbyn got a higher popular vote than Starmer’

    It doesn’t change the fact she lost and that she was a poor candidate.
    I suggest it is evidence that she was not as poor a candidate as some believe.
    She was a far superior candidate to Trump. As would almost anyone have beenn.

    What seems odd to me is that a candidate from the left has to be both moderate and personally perfect in every way to stand a chance of winning, yet a candidate from the right can be any raving lunatic with no principles whatsoever and that's perfectly fine. And I say that as a centrist with no axe to grind for either side.
    I think the winner of the 2024 was the not the current leader as I feel worse off now than I did in 2020.

    It's the economy stupid can explain an awful lot of election results..



  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 132,154
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Fishing said:

    I think Trump's dire performance as President is in danger of making us forget what a dismal candidate Harris was. She never seemed to say why she wanted to be President, had no original or inspiring ideas and, when given the chance to put her point across, actively fled from the media.

    As I've said before, Democrats win when they have a charismatic bullshitter who inspires the young and the left without terrifying the centre and the middle-aged then lets them down in office - see Kennedy, Clinton, Obama. Trump may be so unpopular by 2028 that even Harris will win, or maybe she will be able to fake enough charisma, but the Democrats would be unwise to bank on that.

    For all their faults Kennedy, Clinton, & Obama were three of the most outstanding political leaders of my lifetime. The only potential candidate coming anywhere near now is Buttigieg.

    What do you think?
    The nominee Polymarket, with $300m+ traded so far, is very weird.

    https://polymarket.com/event/democratic-presidential-nominee-2028

    The two favourites are Newsom and AOC, and I don’t see how either of them get there. Middle America isn’t voting for a very coastal liberal.

    Gretchen Whitmer at 50/1 could be a good outsider, and they’ll want to keep at least one woman in the race for as long as possible. Josh Shapiro is probably underpriced at 20/1, as is Andy Beshear at 33/1.
    Middle America doesn't come into it. This is the nominee market.
    I do wonder if the Dem primary voters will even try and take into account the suitability of the candidates to beat a Republican (likely one of Rubio or Vance or DeSantis), or if they go for the most woke coastal ideologue that makes them feel warm and fuzzy inside?
    The fact New Hampshire and South Carolina are the first two states to vote in the Democratic primaries isn't great for a woke coastal nominee.

    Harris remember only got the nomination as she was VP, she won no primaries in 2020
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 132,154
    edited December 17

    geoffw said:

    Sandpit said:

    Harris lost the popular vote by a mere 1.5%. She got a higher share of the popular vote than Trump did in 2016, than Dubya did in 2000, or than Bill Clinton did in 1992.

    If they’d actually had primaries and nominated a candidate who wasn’t terrible, they might even have beaten Trump.
    Biden hanging on till the last moment didn't help

    With the support of his cabinet and the Dem establishment.

    Compare how the cabinet and MPs forced Boris out here to the lickspittle loyalty Buttigieg and the others showed to Biden.
    Yes and forcing Boris out led to a landslide Labour victory and loss of the all the Conservative redwall seats, Biden I suspect would still have done better in the rustbelt than Harris did as he did in 2020
  • JSpringJSpring Posts: 111
    There was serious talk about Gore running in 2004, Kerry running in 2008, Romney running in 2016 and of course Trump did run in 2024. Those are just examples from this century. Speculation about losing candidates having another go is fairly usual, and it's probably because they have high name recognition and are still seen as something of a standard bearer to an extent. Most of the time, though, they don't run again unless their following is particularly strong (i.e. Trump).
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 132,154
    edited December 17
    JSpring said:

    There was serious talk about Gore running in 2004, Kerry running in 2008, Romney running in 2016 and of course Trump did run in 2024. Those are just examples from this century. Speculation about losing candidates having another go is fairly usual, and it's probably because they have high name recognition and are still seen as something of a standard bearer to an extent. Most of the time, though, they don't run again unless their following is particularly strong (i.e. Trump).

    And Trump had proved he could win a presidential election in 2016, even if he lost in 2020
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,362
    HYUFD said:

    I doubt Harris runs, the likes of Buttigieg and Newsom and even AOC have more chance of winning in 2028 than her. After 2004 some polls showed voters would on a re run vote for Kerry and after 2012 for Romney but both were sensible enough not to run again. Kerry instead became Secretary of State and Harris has already been VP of course

    Mmm, that bit in the quoted article about "donor worries" is also relevant -- if Harris can't convince enough big donors then she won't be running. This feels to me like currently not that many Dems have name recognition, plus she's still trying to sell a book so has perfectly good reasons for wanting to have a high profile right now.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 7,157
    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    Christ, that Jane Austen style shipping forecast on R4 is total cringe. If they didn’t cobble it together using AI they made every effort to make it sound as if they did.

    I find it impentrable but restful. It's good if some things don't change!
    It's a weird yet comforting incantation to wake up to.

    Moderate to good.
    Precipitation within sight was always one of my favourites. Described a fair bit of Scotland a fair bit of the time.
    Last night here for sure along with gale force winds.
    And this morning, although it’s so gloomy that the precipitation is hardly within sight. Roll on January when the days start getting longer.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 7,157
    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    I think Trump's dire performance as President is in danger of making us forget what a dismal candidate Harris was. She never seemed to say why she wanted to be President, had no original or inspiring ideas and, when given the chance to put her point across, actively fled from the media.

    As I've said before, Democrats win when they have a charismatic bullshitter who inspires the young and the left without terrifying the centre and the middle-aged then lets them down in office - see Kennedy, Clinton, Obama. Trump may be so unpopular by 2028 that even Harris will win, or maybe she will be able to fake enough charisma, but the Democrats would be unwise to bank on that.

    For all their faults Kennedy, Clinton, & Obama were three of the most outstanding political leaders of my lifetime. The only potential candidate coming anywhere near now is Buttigieg.

    What do you think?
    Sadly, I just can't see how Buttigieg gets through the primaries in the South.

    Buttigieg needs to first explain why he repeatedly lied about Biden's fitness for office.

    He can then explain what he achieved himself as transport secretary for four years.
    You'll be going on about Hunter Biden next.
    None of that is in the slightest bit relevant to Democratic primaries in three years time.

    Assuming the US still has a democracy (not 100% guaranteed), the record of the current administration will be uppermost in voters minds, and whoever has the best shot at uniting the Democrats is likely to get the nomination.

    I doubt that will be Harris, and on current form, it might just be Newsom. He's not exactly adored by the Democratic base, but he's getting traction for leading the opposition to Trump. Quite what he does after leaving the governor's office at the end of 2026 is an interesting question.
    After four years of Trump, the Democrats need to find a unifying candidate. Harris isn’t that person.
  • HYUFD said:

    geoffw said:

    Sandpit said:

    Harris lost the popular vote by a mere 1.5%. She got a higher share of the popular vote than Trump did in 2016, than Dubya did in 2000, or than Bill Clinton did in 1992.

    If they’d actually had primaries and nominated a candidate who wasn’t terrible, they might even have beaten Trump.
    Biden hanging on till the last moment didn't help

    With the support of his cabinet and the Dem establishment.

    Compare how the cabinet and MPs forced Boris out here to the lickspittle loyalty Buttigieg and the others showed to Biden.
    Yes and forcing Boris out led to a landslide Labour victory and loss of the all the Conservative redwall seats, Biden I suspect would still have done better in the rustbelt than Harris did as he did in 2020
    Boris was on a bizarre journey of self-destruction, he would never had lasted to 2024.

    What you Conservatives need to ask yourselves is why you never made any attempt to control Boris's behaviour as PM.
  • MelonBMelonB Posts: 16,553
    “Buttigieg needs to explain his record as transportation secretary” prompted me to revisit this question and see what the internet thinks, assuming it may have some bearing on his presidential prospects.

    The answer is, of course, that in 99% of online sources it was either a triumph or a catastrophe. It’s living proof of the entirely broken US media landscape.

    The best and most balanced non-paywalled analysis I’ve found comes from a UK source: the Indy.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/pete-buttigieg-ohio-train-derailment-transport-secretary-b2293616.html
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 7,157

    HYUFD said:

    geoffw said:

    Sandpit said:

    Harris lost the popular vote by a mere 1.5%. She got a higher share of the popular vote than Trump did in 2016, than Dubya did in 2000, or than Bill Clinton did in 1992.

    If they’d actually had primaries and nominated a candidate who wasn’t terrible, they might even have beaten Trump.
    Biden hanging on till the last moment didn't help

    With the support of his cabinet and the Dem establishment.

    Compare how the cabinet and MPs forced Boris out here to the lickspittle loyalty Buttigieg and the others showed to Biden.
    Yes and forcing Boris out led to a landslide Labour victory and loss of the all the Conservative redwall seats, Biden I suspect would still have done better in the rustbelt than Harris did as he did in 2020
    Boris was on a bizarre journey of self-destruction, he would never had lasted to 2024.

    What you Conservatives need to ask yourselves is why you never made any attempt to control Boris's behaviour as PM.
    Because they thought his behaviour attracted voters from the red wall.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 2,032

    Meanwhile, Trump is writing unhinged Truth Social posts about Venezuela and the oil and land they stole from the US. No, I don’t know what he’s going on about either.

    Nationalisation of oil industry, the US oil companies were forced to agree to better terms for Venezuela or ship out.

    Guyana has made the same errors decades later agreeing inequitable terms with Exxon.

    Remember when you're filling out your online ethics and compliance training for US oil companies, You "being taken to the football with complimentary pint and pie" is bribery, senior management transferring millions to a politician is a "facilitating payment required to conduct business", particularly if a substantial proportion is routed back.
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