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An Anglo-Canadian union – politicalbetting.com

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  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,454
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    WTAF is Heidi Alexander smoking, and where can I get some?

    Transport Secretary Heidi Alexander said that the new design "isn't just a paint job", and that it represents "a new railway, casting off the frustrations of the past and focused entirely on delivering a proper public service for passengers".

    As she reintroduces the *BR* logo...

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g9kx0je10o

    The BR logo is perhaps the most brilliant piece of graphic design of the modern era, I have no complaints about seeing more of it.
    It's also become the recognised logo/ideogram for a railway in GB: just look at any Google map where the stations are. Sort of like Hoover (TM) for vacuum cleaners.
    It's also based on a track diagram showing a set of points, so is firmly rooted in function and railway tradition. A thing of genius.
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,896

    TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    A fair test of who reads the header before commenting! Also, nice idea but Britain is nowhere near Canada and the Royal Navy is nowhere near big enough to defend Canadian waters.

    We need a bigger Royal Navy
    We've just decided to increase spending on families who don't work by £4bn.
    Whatever the merits or otherwise of lifting the 2 child benefits limit, 59% of beneficiary families have at least one parent in work. “Benefits scroungers vs a bigger Royal Navy” is just, to coin a LuckyGuy term from above, silly. Straight out of MAGA-online.
    Given that the employment rate for 16-64 is 75% that suggests they are significantly less likely to be working than the average.
    How many of those are full time or part time though .

    What is worrying is job openings are falling and unemployment is starting to inch up.

    The recent PMI was above 50, which is a good sign but this may take some time to pull through and construction is on its arse.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,137
    Taz said:

    I see the train livery is red, white and blue.

    Nice one.

    That will wind up the ‘you’re all flag shaggers’ if you like our flag brigade a treat 👍

    It would be nice if the service from York to Newcastle was actually run competently. Last three times we’ve gone to use it the trains have been cancelled.

    Logos or trains? Logos or trains? Daddy or chips?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,373
    Taz said:

    I see the train livery is red, white and blue.

    Nice one.

    That will wind up the ‘you’re all flag shaggers’ if you like our flag brigade a treat 👍

    It would be nice if the service from York to Newcastle was actually run competently. Last three times we’ve gone to use it the trains have been cancelled.

    She wants to recreate BR.

    What do you think will happen?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 38,772
    edited December 9
    "PolliticsUK
    @PolliticoUK

    🚨 Westminster Voting Intention:

    ➡️ REF: 27% (+1)
    🌹 LAB: 19% (=)
    🌳 CON: 18% (-1)
    🟢 GRN:,15% (-1)
    🔶 LDEM: 14% (=)

    From @YouGov

    From 7th - 8th December
    Changes with 1st December"

    https://x.com/PolliticoUK/status/1998323485660131409
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,603
    How much discussion is there in Canada about close political ties with the UK?

    I know it now has a security partnership with the EU (the UK may also join this but it's controversial).
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 69,218
    Very interesting piece from @Gardenwalker

    Much to think on.

    I agree we should have oodles of cooperation over various issues, but a formal union as per Scotland-England may be a step too far at this stage?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,438
    Andy_JS said:

    "PolliticsUK
    @PolliticoUK

    🚨 Westminster Voting Intention:

    ➡️ REF: 27% (+1)
    🌹 LAB: 19% (=)
    🌳 CON: 18% (-1)
    🟢 GRN:,15% (-1)
    🔶 LDEM: 14% (=)

    From @YouGov

    From 7th - 8th December
    Changes with 1st December"

    https://x.com/PolliticoUK/status/1998323485660131409

    Sleazy, broken Tories & Polanski on the slide.
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,896
    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    I see the train livery is red, white and blue.

    Nice one.

    That will wind up the ‘you’re all flag shaggers’ if you like our flag brigade a treat 👍

    It would be nice if the service from York to Newcastle was actually run competently. Last three times we’ve gone to use it the trains have been cancelled.

    She wants to recreate BR.

    What do you think will happen?
    Oh the same as last time, although our service from TPE has been shit for years.

    Well one thing won’t happen.

    This guy won’t advertise it.

    https://youtu.be/SElBrwagBGE?si=bAD-o0t7lKTaF1lQ
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 9,246

    Nigelb said:

    Off topic betting post.
    This seems rather (extremely) unlikely, but another straw in the wind.

    Former Marine Emerges As Surprise Name In Race To Succeed Keir Starmer
    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/al-carns-surprise-name-labour-leadership
    ...PoliticsHome understands that the Labour MP for Birmingham Selly Oak considered a bid to succeed Angela Rayner as deputy Labour leader when she resigned from cabinet over unpaid stamp duty in September. In the end, he backed Education Secretary Bridget Phillipson for the role, while also earning a promotion to the Ministry of Defence in the reshuffle.

    Now, Labour MPs have told PoliticsHome that Carns has been sounding out support amid a growing feeling within the Parliamentary Labour Party (PLP) that it is when, not if, the Prime Minister faces a challenge to his leadership.

    “He [Carns] is the most extraordinary man and would be the most impressive leader this country has ever had”, said one particularly supportive Labour MP*..



    *that wouldn't be Carns himself, would it ?

    The propensity of political types to go all dewy eyed over ex-military pols is a wondrous thing. I even remember some PBers fangirling over Johnny Mercer before he was revealed to be a bit thick and mental.

    There’s a lot of them. Not the most inspiring list, even by the standards of our current political classes.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_veterans_in_British_politics
    In that list is Tony Christopher, a Labour Lord, who is now 100 and is the only parliamentarian to serve in WW2. His wife died last year, age 105.
    What's their secret, I wonder?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,137
    Lando is on the drift in SPotY betting and is now only third best after Rory and Chloe.
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,896
    😳

    ‘ Reportedly, 4 people in Herat province were detained & sent to rehab by Taliban's Virtue Ministry for imitating characters from British crime series, Peaky Blinders & parading around city resembling the vintage gangsters, an act seen as violating local values.’


    https://x.com/ihsantipu/status/1997952434828886150?s=61
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,015
    Pulpstar said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "PolliticsUK
    @PolliticoUK

    🚨 Westminster Voting Intention:

    ➡️ REF: 27% (+1)
    🌹 LAB: 19% (=)
    🌳 CON: 18% (-1)
    🟢 GRN:,15% (-1)
    🔶 LDEM: 14% (=)

    From @YouGov

    From 7th - 8th December
    Changes with 1st December"

    https://x.com/PolliticoUK/status/1998323485660131409

    Sleazy, broken Tories & Polanski on the slide.
    *plaintively*
    How long is it before Kemi's BRILLIANCE in her budget response breaks through in the polling?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,776

    ydoethur said:

    WTAF is Heidi Alexander smoking, and where can I get some?

    Transport Secretary Heidi Alexander said that the new design "isn't just a paint job", and that it represents "a new railway, casting off the frustrations of the past and focused entirely on delivering a proper public service for passengers".

    As she reintroduces the *BR* logo...

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g9kx0je10o

    The BR logo is perhaps the most brilliant piece of graphic design of the modern era, I have no complaints about seeing more of it.
    I like that bit of the design.

    For me, the need to wave the Union Flag around speaks to a lack of self-confidence and fundamentally un-British. I've always liked the tiny flag patch the Army use. Even just the traditional maroon would have been better for the trains.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,438

    Lando is on the drift in SPotY betting and is now only third best after Rory and Chloe.

    He's world champ and very talented. Back story isn't quite the same as the Hamilton's working class hero stuff when Lewis won his first world title though.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,300
    Saw this yesterday.
    Since it hasn't been debunked in the last 24hrs, I'm assuming it's more likely than not true.

    Per reports, yesterday, a Russian bomber parked in an aircraft shelter accidentally activated both of its ejector seats, sending both the pilot and navigator into the shelter roof.

    Neither survived.

    https://x.com/Osinttechnical/status/1997940668619219204
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,603
    FF43 said:

    How much discussion is there in Canada about close political ties with the UK?

    I know it now has a security partnership with the EU (the UK may also join this but it's controversial).

    I had a quick check. The UK gets a mention, but the prize Canada is after is the EU.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,439
    Trump's Environmental Protection Agency scrubs mentions of human-caused climate change: https://bsky.app/profile/weatherwest.bsky.social/post/3m7ilqymr5r2g
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,061

    Good morning.

    Thank @TheScreamingEagles for publishing my piece.

    I wrote it demonstrate that there *is* a viable geopolitical possibility for the UK (and Canada) that breaks from a seeming choice between ever-greater US subordination, dependence on a dysfunctional EU, or dwindling into irrelevance.

    I don’t encourage a full merger, but something akin to the EU, with alignment of foreign and trade policy, a common market, freedom of movement, military integration, and shared energy and industrial policy. Currencies might remain separate but central banks would co-ordinate (unlimited currency swaps etc).

    I read that UK and Canada are “too far apart” but I’d just ask people to look at a map and the breadth or length of the other global powers of the current era: US, China, Russia, India.

    The combined entity would have a population up there with Russia’s or Japan’s (with more favourable demographics), and be a top 4 or even 3 economic, military, and trading power.

    It's an interesting article. The UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand ought to have been merged, a century ago. Unfortunately, British leaders could only think in terms of overseas territories being either colonies, or independent countries.

    Canada would need to boost its military expenditure. It was once a formidable fighting nation.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,776
    edited December 9
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    A fair test of who reads the header before commenting! Also, nice idea but Britain is nowhere near Canada and the Royal Navy is nowhere near big enough to defend Canadian waters.

    We need a bigger Royal Navy
    We've just decided to increase spending on families who don't work by £4bn.
    Most of the families affected by the two child cap have got an adult in work.

    Or are you thinking of pensioners?
    What makes you think recipients of the state pension don’t work ?
    About ten percent do.

    So I'm about 5.5 times less wrong than those saying that the two child cap was about families who don't work.
    So a large chunk of the increase is going to people not in work and many in work do the bare minimum so as not to lose their benefits. Pay people to be idle and they will be 👍 That is, largely, down to the system. It needs reforming. Incentives matter. I do not blame the economically idle on receipt of UC for not wanting to work more than what they can get away with. Incentives matter.

    The state pension is, of course, contribution based so the pensioners you show your disdain for have contribute to the system to take something out irrespective of the rights and wrongs of it.

    However it is very PB and very Victorian for people to radiate their worthiness on the so called virtuous poor and show their disdain for those doing the heavy lifting or have done in the past to pay for them.
    Have you ever come across something called a UC sanction? It's an absolutely massive incentive to seek out and do as much work as possible, otherwise you lose the entire UC benefit package. About 40% of those households that are not in work are searching for it, and are very likely to be a single mother in any case (75%).

    If you want I get a good feel for this, try volunteering in a CAB or Shelter. Much of the PB discourse on benefits is based on pre-2010 Daily Mail headlines.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,794
    FF43 said:

    How much discussion is there in Canada about close political ties with the UK?

    I know it now has a security partnership with the EU (the UK may also join this but it's controversial).

    Not much, although Carney has made a few remarks.

    But Canada and the UK are both stuck in old ways of thinking. The idea presented here bucks 70 years of foreign policy thinking.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,891
    Nigelb said:

    Saw this yesterday.
    Since it hasn't been debunked in the last 24hrs, I'm assuming it's more likely than not true.

    Per reports, yesterday, a Russian bomber parked in an aircraft shelter accidentally activated both of its ejector seats, sending both the pilot and navigator into the shelter roof.

    Neither survived.

    https://x.com/Osinttechnical/status/1997940668619219204

    Would the crew be sitting in the plane in a shelter? I always thought they pulled the planes out onto the tarmac and then the pilots got in once fuelled up etc - can’t imagine they are fuelled and armed inside a hangar although it is the Russians so can’t totally dismiss.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,794
    Sean_F said:

    Good morning.

    Thank @TheScreamingEagles for publishing my piece.

    I wrote it demonstrate that there *is* a viable geopolitical possibility for the UK (and Canada) that breaks from a seeming choice between ever-greater US subordination, dependence on a dysfunctional EU, or dwindling into irrelevance.

    I don’t encourage a full merger, but something akin to the EU, with alignment of foreign and trade policy, a common market, freedom of movement, military integration, and shared energy and industrial policy. Currencies might remain separate but central banks would co-ordinate (unlimited currency swaps etc).

    I read that UK and Canada are “too far apart” but I’d just ask people to look at a map and the breadth or length of the other global powers of the current era: US, China, Russia, India.

    The combined entity would have a population up there with Russia’s or Japan’s (with more favourable demographics), and be a top 4 or even 3 economic, military, and trading power.

    It's an interesting article. The UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand ought to have been merged, a century ago. Unfortunately, British leaders could only think in terms of overseas territories being either colonies, or independent countries.

    Canada would need to boost its military expenditure. It was once a formidable fighting nation.
    The fall of Singapore exposed the pretensions of imperial reach into the Pacific.

    One would assume that Anglo-Canada would be on v close terms with Australia and New Zealand, but closer political alignment would be over-stretch.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,288

    FF43 said:

    How much discussion is there in Canada about close political ties with the UK?

    I know it now has a security partnership with the EU (the UK may also join this but it's controversial).

    Not much, although Carney has made a few remarks.

    But Canada and the UK are both stuck in old ways of thinking. The idea presented here bucks 70 years of foreign policy thinking.
    As an aside, if Canada wants to join the EU then Remainers should really love the idea of union as it'd make a referendum a walk in the park.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,944
    A fun header!

    It's pretty rare for countries to voluntarily merge, I think that Syria and Egypt tried it for a while in the 50s...

    I think a more realistic prospect is NATO 2.0... ie without the US.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,824
    boulay said:

    Nigelb said:

    Saw this yesterday.
    Since it hasn't been debunked in the last 24hrs, I'm assuming it's more likely than not true.

    Per reports, yesterday, a Russian bomber parked in an aircraft shelter accidentally activated both of its ejector seats, sending both the pilot and navigator into the shelter roof.

    Neither survived.

    https://x.com/Osinttechnical/status/1997940668619219204

    Would the crew be sitting in the plane in a shelter? I always thought they pulled the planes out onto the tarmac and then the pilots got in once fuelled up etc - can’t imagine they are fuelled and armed inside a hangar although it is the Russians so can’t totally dismiss.
    Given the number of drones whizzing about - a Russian bomber was recently filmed being hit, with the ladder up and canopy open - it may be they were being more cautious on the readiness of their planes.

    There is something grimly Wile E Coyote-cartoonish about this incident.

    Except Wile. E Coyote always survived to drop into another canyon.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,288
    rkrkrk said:

    A fun header!

    It's pretty rare for countries to voluntarily merge, I think that Syria and Egypt tried it for a while in the 50s...

    I think a more realistic prospect is NATO 2.0... ie without the US.

    Spain, Italy, Germany, and Poland-Lithuania came about roughly along those lines but that was a little further back. Although it's also worth noting Portugal never joined Spain.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,794
    I am shopping my piece to some political types to see if it can get some small traction.

    What I really need is a Conrad Black type figure to fund a modest think tank…
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,454

    FF43 said:

    How much discussion is there in Canada about close political ties with the UK?

    I know it now has a security partnership with the EU (the UK may also join this but it's controversial).

    Not much, although Carney has made a few remarks.

    But Canada and the UK are both stuck in old ways of thinking. The idea presented here bucks 70 years of foreign policy thinking.
    As an aside, if Canada wants to join the EU then Remainers should really love the idea of union as it'd make a referendum a walk in the park.
    On some measures Canada has a closer relationship to the EU than we do. It joined SAFE for instance, while we couldn't reach agreement, leaving our defence industry outside. The EU is Canada's second largest trading partner after the US. According to AI, Canada is prioritizing the strategic relationship with the EU while the relationship with us is seen as a "family" one. As of now though Canada can't join the EU as it is not part of Europe.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,776

    boulay said:

    Nigelb said:

    Saw this yesterday.
    Since it hasn't been debunked in the last 24hrs, I'm assuming it's more likely than not true.

    Per reports, yesterday, a Russian bomber parked in an aircraft shelter accidentally activated both of its ejector seats, sending both the pilot and navigator into the shelter roof.

    Neither survived.

    https://x.com/Osinttechnical/status/1997940668619219204

    Would the crew be sitting in the plane in a shelter? I always thought they pulled the planes out onto the tarmac and then the pilots got in once fuelled up etc - can’t imagine they are fuelled and armed inside a hangar although it is the Russians so can’t totally dismiss.
    Given the number of drones whizzing about - a Russian bomber was recently filmed being hit, with the ladder up and canopy open - it may be they were being more cautious on the readiness of their planes.

    There is something grimly Wile E Coyote-cartoonish about this incident.

    Except Wile. E Coyote always survived to drop into another canyon.
    Happened to the Red Arrows not so long ago.
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,896
    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    A fair test of who reads the header before commenting! Also, nice idea but Britain is nowhere near Canada and the Royal Navy is nowhere near big enough to defend Canadian waters.

    We need a bigger Royal Navy
    We've just decided to increase spending on families who don't work by £4bn.
    Most of the families affected by the two child cap have got an adult in work.

    Or are you thinking of pensioners?
    What makes you think recipients of the state pension don’t work ?
    About ten percent do.

    So I'm about 5.5 times less wrong than those saying that the two child cap was about families who don't work.
    So a large chunk of the increase is going to people not in work and many in work do the bare minimum so as not to lose their benefits. Pay people to be idle and they will be 👍 That is, largely, down to the system. It needs reforming. Incentives matter. I do not blame the economically idle on receipt of UC for not wanting to work more than what they can get away with. Incentives matter.

    The state pension is, of course, contribution based so the pensioners you show your disdain for have contribute to the system to take something out irrespective of the rights and wrongs of it.

    However it is very PB and very Victorian for people to radiate their worthiness on the so called virtuous poor and show their disdain for those doing the heavy lifting or have done in the past to pay for them.
    Have you ever come across something called a UC sanction? It's an absolutely massive incentive to seek out and do as much work as possible, otherwise you lose the entire UC benefit package. About 40% of those households that are not in work are searching for it, and are very likely to be a single mother in any case (75%).

    If you want I get a good feel for this, try volunteering in a CAB or Shelter. Much of the PB discourse on benefits is based on pre-2010 Daily Mail headlines.
    Well aware of sanctions. I merely entered the debate to challenge Stuart’s needless dig at pensioners.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,603

    FF43 said:

    How much discussion is there in Canada about close political ties with the UK?

    I know it now has a security partnership with the EU (the UK may also join this but it's controversial).

    Not much, although Carney has made a few remarks.

    But Canada and the UK are both stuck in old ways of thinking. The idea presented here bucks 70 years of foreign policy thinking.
    As an aside, if Canada wants to join the EU then Remainers should really love the idea of union as it'd make a referendum a walk in the park.
    On some measures Canada has a closer relationship to the EU than we do. It joined SAFE for instance, while we couldn't reach agreement, leaving our defence industry outside. The EU is Canada's second largest trading partner after the US. According to AI, Canada is prioritizing the strategic relationship with the EU while the relationship with us is seen as a "family" one. As of now though Canada can't join the EU as it is not part of Europe.
    I suppose if the UK was willing to join the EU, Canada would have a reason to go into union with the UK. After all, Martinique is in the EU.

    None of this is going to happen, of course.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,117

    Ratters said:

    Ratters said:

    HYUFD said:

    A fair test of who reads the header before commenting! Also, nice idea but Britain is nowhere near Canada and the Royal Navy is nowhere near big enough to defend Canadian waters.

    We need a bigger Royal Navy
    We've just decided to increase spending on families who don't work by £4bn.
    Most of the families affected by the two child cap have got an adult in work.

    Or are you thinking of pensioners?
    "We need to improve our terrible birthrate and stop relying on immigration"

    Also

    "We need to stop helping out people in work on modest salaries who have larger families"
    "We need to find a way of coping with a declining population"

    Why try to think of ways of trying to get people to do something they don't want to, and instead face up to reality?
    I'm fine with the "immigration" option with low birth rates.

    But if you choose neither, then ultimately in the long-run you're choosing a declining, ageing population. Managed decline, as per Japan.
    Yeah, the same people who dislike immigration are equally dismissive of managed decline. Choose a realistic mix, whatever it is, please.
    Plenty of contradictions out there

    - Greens who demand an end to growth, but want open borders and an end to poverty. Which means more people with less.
    - People who don’t want migration, but then bang on about “cheap labour is a human right for employers”

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,257
    Nigelb said:

    Off topic betting post.
    This seems rather (extremely) unlikely, but another straw in the wind.

    Former Marine Emerges As Surprise Name In Race To Succeed Keir Starmer
    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/al-carns-surprise-name-labour-leadership
    ...PoliticsHome understands that the Labour MP for Birmingham Selly Oak considered a bid to succeed Angela Rayner as deputy Labour leader when she resigned from cabinet over unpaid stamp duty in September. In the end, he backed Education Secretary Bridget Phillipson for the role, while also earning a promotion to the Ministry of Defence in the reshuffle.

    Now, Labour MPs have told PoliticsHome that Carns has been sounding out support amid a growing feeling within the Parliamentary Labour Party (PLP) that it is when, not if, the Prime Minister faces a challenge to his leadership.

    “He [Carns] is the most extraordinary man and would be the most impressive leader this country has ever had”, said one particularly supportive Labour MP*..



    *that wouldn't be Carns himself, would it ?

    He reached the summit of Mount Everest, why not the summit of British politics?
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 3,328

    I am shopping my piece to some political types to see if it can get some small traction.

    What I really need is a Conrad Black type figure to fund a modest think tank…

    Good luck. A really thought provoking article. We are now surely reaching a stage where what was previously "unthinkable" becomes well worth considering.

    Not mentioned but, of course, we Brits and Canadians also share a head of state. So that's a start.

    Moving this forward would be quite a legacy for Mark Carney, and a very satisfying poke in the eye to DJT.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,794
    edited December 9

    Nigelb said:

    Off topic betting post.
    This seems rather (extremely) unlikely, but another straw in the wind.

    Former Marine Emerges As Surprise Name In Race To Succeed Keir Starmer
    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/al-carns-surprise-name-labour-leadership
    ...PoliticsHome understands that the Labour MP for Birmingham Selly Oak considered a bid to succeed Angela Rayner as deputy Labour leader when she resigned from cabinet over unpaid stamp duty in September. In the end, he backed Education Secretary Bridget Phillipson for the role, while also earning a promotion to the Ministry of Defence in the reshuffle.

    Now, Labour MPs have told PoliticsHome that Carns has been sounding out support amid a growing feeling within the Parliamentary Labour Party (PLP) that it is when, not if, the Prime Minister faces a challenge to his leadership.

    “He [Carns] is the most extraordinary man and would be the most impressive leader this country has ever had”, said one particularly supportive Labour MP*..



    *that wouldn't be Carns himself, would it ?

    He reached the summit of Mount Everest, why not the summit of British politics?
    Carns seems to have developed a small but significant coterie of supporters on the Labour backbenchers. I’ve been hearing about him for about a year (we have friends in common).

    However, surely he needs some ministerial experience?
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,896

    Nigelb said:

    Off topic betting post.
    This seems rather (extremely) unlikely, but another straw in the wind.

    Former Marine Emerges As Surprise Name In Race To Succeed Keir Starmer
    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/al-carns-surprise-name-labour-leadership
    ...PoliticsHome understands that the Labour MP for Birmingham Selly Oak considered a bid to succeed Angela Rayner as deputy Labour leader when she resigned from cabinet over unpaid stamp duty in September. In the end, he backed Education Secretary Bridget Phillipson for the role, while also earning a promotion to the Ministry of Defence in the reshuffle.

    Now, Labour MPs have told PoliticsHome that Carns has been sounding out support amid a growing feeling within the Parliamentary Labour Party (PLP) that it is when, not if, the Prime Minister faces a challenge to his leadership.

    “He [Carns] is the most extraordinary man and would be the most impressive leader this country has ever had”, said one particularly supportive Labour MP*..



    *that wouldn't be Carns himself, would it ?

    He reached the summit of Mount Everest, why not the summit of British politics?
    Carns seems to have developed a small but significant coterie of supporters on the Labour backbenchers. I’ve been hearing about him for about a year (we have friends in common).

    However, surely he needs some ministerial experience?
    No bottled out of going for deputy leader.

    Too early or is he another who will blink when it matters ?

    Labour skipping a generation may not necessarily be a bad thing.

    Starmer is useless but the other options (Rayner, Ed, Streeting) don’t appear any better.
  • Interesting header and a Canada-UK union makes far more sense than the UK uniting with Europe, though I doubt either the British public nor the Canadian one would be much interested in it.

    Most of the objectives mentioned could instead be achieved from co-operation and multi-polar alliances involving ourselves and Canada and other like-minded allies such as the Scandinavian nations mentioned which are also involved in the Arctic.

    If we were to have a hypothetical Canada/UK union, I would also invite our two Antipodean allies to be involved too, a CANZUK union could make a lot of sense for similar complementary strengths that a Canada/UK one alone would, and would give us a useful geographical spread across the globe and timezones.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,716
    I don’t know a lot about Carns apart from he’s an ex - marine . I don’t buy the issue of not having enough experience in the Commons .

    Why do you need that ?

    There’s hardly a strong correlation in recent times between experience and great leaders/PMs .

  • I am shopping my piece to some political types to see if it can get some small traction.

    What I really need is a Conrad Black type figure to fund a modest think tank…

    Good luck. A really thought provoking article. We are now surely reaching a stage where what was previously "unthinkable" becomes well worth considering.

    Not mentioned but, of course, we Brits and Canadians also share a head of state. So that's a start.

    Moving this forward would be quite a legacy for Mark Carney, and a very satisfying poke in the eye to DJT.
    Carney was elected because the Canadians are fiercely, proudly, independently Canadian.

    They have no interest whatsoever in merging with the USA, and they equally have absolutely no interest whatsoever in merging with the UK either.

    This is an amusing hypothetical (as is CANZUK etc) but nothing more than that.

    Co-operation on the other hand is key and achievable. We should be co-operating as independent nations, without reliance upon the USA as a third party. No need for anyone to surrender their independence to co-operate.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 2,012

    I am shopping my piece to some political types to see if it can get some small traction.

    What I really need is a Conrad Black type figure to fund a modest think tank…

    Good luck. A really thought provoking article. We are now surely reaching a stage where what was previously "unthinkable" becomes well worth considering.

    Not mentioned but, of course, we Brits and Canadians also share a head of state. So that's a start.

    Moving this forward would be quite a legacy for Mark Carney, and a very satisfying poke in the eye to DJT.
    A Conrad Black type figure?
    So a convicted fraudster...
  • Ratters said:

    Ratters said:

    HYUFD said:

    A fair test of who reads the header before commenting! Also, nice idea but Britain is nowhere near Canada and the Royal Navy is nowhere near big enough to defend Canadian waters.

    We need a bigger Royal Navy
    We've just decided to increase spending on families who don't work by £4bn.
    Most of the families affected by the two child cap have got an adult in work.

    Or are you thinking of pensioners?
    "We need to improve our terrible birthrate and stop relying on immigration"

    Also

    "We need to stop helping out people in work on modest salaries who have larger families"
    "We need to find a way of coping with a declining population"

    Why try to think of ways of trying to get people to do something they don't want to, and instead face up to reality?
    I'm fine with the "immigration" option with low birth rates.

    But if you choose neither, then ultimately in the long-run you're choosing a declining, ageing population. Managed decline, as per Japan.
    Yeah, the same people who dislike immigration are equally dismissive of managed decline. Choose a realistic mix, whatever it is, please.
    Plenty of contradictions out there

    - Greens who demand an end to growth, but want open borders and an end to poverty. Which means more people with less.
    - People who don’t want migration, but then bang on about “cheap labour is a human right for employers”

    - People who are pro-migration but oppose construction.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,704
    Nigelb said:

    Saw this yesterday.
    Since it hasn't been debunked in the last 24hrs, I'm assuming it's more likely than not true.

    Per reports, yesterday, a Russian bomber parked in an aircraft shelter accidentally activated both of its ejector seats, sending both the pilot and navigator into the shelter roof.

    Neither survived.

    https://x.com/Osinttechnical/status/1997940668619219204

    They do appear to have both problems with bang seats going off when they’re not supposed to, and bang seats failing to go off when commanded after getting hit by something. Oh well, fewer Russian pilots to bomb Ukranian schools and hospitals.

    There’s also reports of a Russian mil transport plane crashing today, an An-22. Reported on Russian Telegram channels.
    https://x.com/bayraktar_1love/status/1998325356097405437
    https://x.com/bohuslavskakate/status/1998342658901577855
    I do feel a little sorry sometimes for the Ukranian bloggers, who appear to spend their whole day on Russian Telegram looking for the little good news that will be in a sea of crap posted by their enemy.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 2,012

    Pulpstar said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "PolliticsUK
    @PolliticoUK

    🚨 Westminster Voting Intention:

    ➡️ REF: 27% (+1)
    🌹 LAB: 19% (=)
    🌳 CON: 18% (-1)
    🟢 GRN:,15% (-1)
    🔶 LDEM: 14% (=)

    From @YouGov

    From 7th - 8th December
    Changes with 1st December"

    https://x.com/PolliticoUK/status/1998323485660131409

    Sleazy, broken Tories & Polanski on the slide.
    *plaintively*
    How long is it before Kemi's BRILLIANCE in her budget response breaks through in the polling?
    I see the Farage pile-on is continuing
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/dec/09/reform-campaign-for-farages-clacton-seat-was-a-juggernaut-say-candidates

    Just wait until the Electoral Commission jumps into inaction
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,300
    UK to scale back military training exercises outside Europe

    https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/uk-to-scale-back-military-training-exercises-outside-europe/
    ...Responding to a parliamentary question on future training plans, defence minister Al Carns said the services would continue to prioritise overseas activity only “in alignment with both our own and partners’ operational needs, as well as the priorities outlined in the Strategic Defence Review.”

    The Army will “reduce the number of overseas training exercises” from financial year 2026–27, a move described as necessary “to enable a greater focus on NATO commitments and enhancing land warfighting capabilities.” The adjustment will be carried out with international partners.

    The Royal Navy will also scale back non-European training. Carns said that “over the next four years, the Royal Navy will scale back its participation in overseas training outside the Europe, Atlantic, and Arctic theatre.” The change reflects the Navy’s “evolving global posture” as it concentrates resources on the Euro-Atlantic and Arctic regions, where it expects growing operational demand..
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 57,067

    Ratters said:

    HYUFD said:

    A fair test of who reads the header before commenting! Also, nice idea but Britain is nowhere near Canada and the Royal Navy is nowhere near big enough to defend Canadian waters.

    We need a bigger Royal Navy
    We've just decided to increase spending on families who don't work by £4bn.
    Most of the families affected by the two child cap have got an adult in work.

    Or are you thinking of pensioners?
    "We need to improve our terrible birthrate and stop relying on immigration"

    Also

    "We need to stop helping out people in work on modest salaries who have larger families"
    "We need to find a way of coping with a declining population"

    Why try to think of ways of trying to get people to do something they don't want to, and instead face up to reality?
    To slightly misquote Jane Austin it is a truth universally acknowledged, that a couple in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of children.

    If they don't have them they will spend their money frivolously.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,373

    Nigelb said:

    Off topic betting post.
    This seems rather (extremely) unlikely, but another straw in the wind.

    Former Marine Emerges As Surprise Name In Race To Succeed Keir Starmer
    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/al-carns-surprise-name-labour-leadership
    ...PoliticsHome understands that the Labour MP for Birmingham Selly Oak considered a bid to succeed Angela Rayner as deputy Labour leader when she resigned from cabinet over unpaid stamp duty in September. In the end, he backed Education Secretary Bridget Phillipson for the role, while also earning a promotion to the Ministry of Defence in the reshuffle.

    Now, Labour MPs have told PoliticsHome that Carns has been sounding out support amid a growing feeling within the Parliamentary Labour Party (PLP) that it is when, not if, the Prime Minister faces a challenge to his leadership.

    “He [Carns] is the most extraordinary man and would be the most impressive leader this country has ever had”, said one particularly supportive Labour MP*..



    *that wouldn't be Carns himself, would it ?

    He reached the summit of Mount Everest, why not the summit of British politics?
    Carns seems to have developed a small but significant coterie of supporters on the Labour backbenchers. I’ve been hearing about him for about a year (we have friends in common).

    However, surely he needs some ministerial experience?
    Fun fact - just three prime ministers since 1964 have spent more than seven years in cabinet prior to becoming PM.

    The three in question are James Callaghan, Gordon Brown and Liz Truss.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,015
    Has this been done? Seems an odd hill to die on (not literally of course, that's the Palestinians) for a historically unpopular chancellor both within her party and more widely. Of course the Israeli PR operation is so crap that they'll consider this a major coup.

    PoliticsHome
    @politicshome
    Progressive people "must be willing to say, unapologetically, I am a Zionist", Chancellor Rachel Reeves said on Monday
    “I am a Zionist not in spite of my belief in democracy or freedom and equality, but exactly because of those beliefs"

    https://x.com/politicshome/status/1998065074989076850?s=20
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,373
    DavidL said:

    Ratters said:

    HYUFD said:

    A fair test of who reads the header before commenting! Also, nice idea but Britain is nowhere near Canada and the Royal Navy is nowhere near big enough to defend Canadian waters.

    We need a bigger Royal Navy
    We've just decided to increase spending on families who don't work by £4bn.
    Most of the families affected by the two child cap have got an adult in work.

    Or are you thinking of pensioners?
    "We need to improve our terrible birthrate and stop relying on immigration"

    Also

    "We need to stop helping out people in work on modest salaries who have larger families"
    "We need to find a way of coping with a declining population"

    Why try to think of ways of trying to get people to do something they don't want to, and instead face up to reality?
    To slightly misquote Jane Austin it is a truth universally acknowledged, that a couple in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of children.

    If they don't have them they will spend their money frivolously.
    Two friends of mine with no children retired at 55 and spent 40 years living the high life. Cruises, a nice house, every luxury.

    One day, a niece of the wife said, 'Gosh, you are spending uncle's money fast, aren't you?'

    Back comes the reply, 'Yes, and then we're going to spend mine too.'
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,300
    The RAF has carried out its largest ever deployment of P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft, sending three jets from 120 Squadron to Keflavik Air Base in Iceland as part of NATO vigilance activity..
    https://x.com/UKDefJournal/status/1998030198734757926

    We have nine maritime patrol aircraft.
    Japan has over thirty.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,824
    Nigelb said:

    UK to scale back military training exercises outside Europe

    https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/uk-to-scale-back-military-training-exercises-outside-europe/
    ...Responding to a parliamentary question on future training plans, defence minister Al Carns said the services would continue to prioritise overseas activity only “in alignment with both our own and partners’ operational needs, as well as the priorities outlined in the Strategic Defence Review.”

    The Army will “reduce the number of overseas training exercises” from financial year 2026–27, a move described as necessary “to enable a greater focus on NATO commitments and enhancing land warfighting capabilities.” The adjustment will be carried out with international partners.

    The Royal Navy will also scale back non-European training. Carns said that “over the next four years, the Royal Navy will scale back its participation in overseas training outside the Europe, Atlantic, and Arctic theatre.” The change reflects the Navy’s “evolving global posture” as it concentrates resources on the Euro-Atlantic and Arctic regions, where it expects growing operational demand..

    Leaving Canada to its fate?
  • FF43 said:

    I am shopping my piece to some political types to see if it can get some small traction.

    What I really need is a Conrad Black type figure to fund a modest think tank…

    Good luck. A really thought provoking article. We are now surely reaching a stage where what was previously "unthinkable" becomes well worth considering.

    Not mentioned but, of course, we Brits and Canadians also share a head of state. So that's a start.

    Moving this forward would be quite a legacy for Mark Carney, and a very satisfying poke in the eye to DJT.
    Reminds me of when Tony Blair told Frank Field to "think the unthinkable". Field thought and was then sacked. Because it was unthinkable.
    Blair: 'I said think the unthinkable, not spend the unspendable.'
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,257
    edited December 9

    Ratters said:

    HYUFD said:

    A fair test of who reads the header before commenting! Also, nice idea but Britain is nowhere near Canada and the Royal Navy is nowhere near big enough to defend Canadian waters.

    We need a bigger Royal Navy
    We've just decided to increase spending on families who don't work by £4bn.
    Most of the families affected by the two child cap have got an adult in work.

    Or are you thinking of pensioners?
    "We need to improve our terrible birthrate and stop relying on immigration"

    Also

    "We need to stop helping out people in work on modest salaries who have larger families"
    "We need to find a way of coping with a declining population"

    Why try to think of ways of trying to get people to do something they don't want to, and instead face up to reality?
    On average women end their child-bearing years wishing that they had one more children then they had. We should be working out what is preventing them from having the children they want to have.

    My best guess is that it's down to women not finding the right person to have children with - so this is set to get worse as the incel generation matures, as we can see in South Korea with a complete collapse in the birth rate as women reject the patriarchal expectations they face.

    So you have two options. Either make it easier for women to have children alone, or address the ways in which male culture and society more generally is hostile to women and motherhood.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 2,012

    Has this been done? Seems an odd hill to die on (not literally of course, that's the Palestinians) for a historically unpopular chancellor both within her party and more widely. Of course the Israeli PR operation is so crap that they'll consider this a major coup.

    PoliticsHome
    @politicshome
    Progressive people "must be willing to say, unapologetically, I am a Zionist", Chancellor Rachel Reeves said on Monday
    “I am a Zionist not in spite of my belief in democracy or freedom and equality, but exactly because of those beliefs"

    https://x.com/politicshome/status/1998065074989076850?s=20

    Progressive people aren't generally supportive of ethnic-cleansing, appreciate that this is a controversial topic on here, but is anyone denying that zionism requires the displacement of the current inhabitants as seen in the West Bank for example?

    I do question whether she actually understands the full implications of what she is saying.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,437
    @Gardenwalker An impressive article, many thanks.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 69,218
    edited December 9
    Does anyone know who this Al Carns is who keeps being touted by anonymous labour MPs as the surprise leader-in-waiting etc etc.?

    e.g.
    https://x.com/harriet_symonds/status/1998126014648713422

    I think we could do with a header.

    He's not even on BF list.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,257

    HYUFD said:

    Battlebus said:

    Brexit has crystallised the issue of British identity. Who are we and what are we for? There was merit in being in the EU for trade but our vastly different legal system does not sit well within the Code Napoleon of most of Europe. We are now adrift. GW's idea of seeking out a political alignment with a country with a similar Common Law basis has merit as a point of discussion but it seems unambitious. Surely the prize is to merge with the US which has far more resources than Canada. After all, the US President has far stronger links to the UK than a transient banker.

    Good, timely article GW. Hope it puts the Brexit discussion to bed (I hope)

    Culturally the UK is far closer to Carney's Canada than Trump's USA
    Which Canada - Vancouver or Calgary? Toronto or Winnipeg? And wouldn't Montreal be closer to Paris than London?

    It's a nice dream and I'm up for it personally, but do we really think an isolationist and unpredictable USA is going to sit by while its nearest neighbour forges military alliances with potentially hostile states?
    That was one of my immediate thoughts. An Anglo-Canadian Union means that the US has a nuclear power on its border. We know what they thought about that at the time of the Cuban missile crisis.

    That said, I think Gardenwalker's article is the sort of bold thinking that we need to take to protect our freedom in the future. At the moment we are drifting on as everything falls apart around us.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,120

    Does anyone know who this Al Carns is who keeps being touted by anonymous labour MPs as the surprise leader-in-waiting etc etc.?

    e.g.
    https://x.com/harriet_symonds/status/1998126014648713422

    I think we could do with a header.

    He's not even on BF list.

    Are we allowed to discuss AI?
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,891
    Nigelb said:

    UK to scale back military training exercises outside Europe

    https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/uk-to-scale-back-military-training-exercises-outside-europe/
    ...Responding to a parliamentary question on future training plans, defence minister Al Carns said the services would continue to prioritise overseas activity only “in alignment with both our own and partners’ operational needs, as well as the priorities outlined in the Strategic Defence Review.”

    The Army will “reduce the number of overseas training exercises” from financial year 2026–27, a move described as necessary “to enable a greater focus on NATO commitments and enhancing land warfighting capabilities.” The adjustment will be carried out with international partners.

    The Royal Navy will also scale back non-European training. Carns said that “over the next four years, the Royal Navy will scale back its participation in overseas training outside the Europe, Atlantic, and Arctic theatre.” The change reflects the Navy’s “evolving global posture” as it concentrates resources on the Euro-Atlantic and Arctic regions, where it expects growing operational demand..

    I saw the other day that they sent a load of British soldiers on jungle training exercises in the far east and had neglected to provide helicopters which were a vital part of elements of the training and provided off road buggies instead which suffered from being unsuitable for the hilly jungle terrain.

    I think an element of jungle training is essential for special forces, pathfinder/rangers and specialists but otherwise at the moment there is probably very little benefit in the larger part of the infantry doing that and they would be better off looking at the terrains they might find themselves in v Russia.

    We have no business for the foreseeable getting involved in theatres such as jungle or desert short of any rescue situation (covered by the aforementioned specialists). The US wants a pacific focus so let them do that otherwise we now need to focus on our back yard.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,061
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Ratters said:

    HYUFD said:

    A fair test of who reads the header before commenting! Also, nice idea but Britain is nowhere near Canada and the Royal Navy is nowhere near big enough to defend Canadian waters.

    We need a bigger Royal Navy
    We've just decided to increase spending on families who don't work by £4bn.
    Most of the families affected by the two child cap have got an adult in work.

    Or are you thinking of pensioners?
    "We need to improve our terrible birthrate and stop relying on immigration"

    Also

    "We need to stop helping out people in work on modest salaries who have larger families"
    "We need to find a way of coping with a declining population"

    Why try to think of ways of trying to get people to do something they don't want to, and instead face up to reality?
    To slightly misquote Jane Austin it is a truth universally acknowledged, that a couple in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of children.

    If they don't have them they will spend their money frivolously.
    Two friends of mine with no children retired at 55 and spent 40 years living the high life. Cruises, a nice house, every luxury.

    One day, a niece of the wife said, 'Gosh, you are spending uncle's money fast, aren't you?'

    Back comes the reply, 'Yes, and then we're going to spend mine too.'
    Some people are entirely content with the idea that "Apres moi, le deluge." They care nothing for their relatives nor their societies.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,437
    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    I see the train livery is red, white and blue.

    Nice one.

    That will wind up the ‘you’re all flag shaggers’ if you like our flag brigade a treat 👍

    It would be nice if the service from York to Newcastle was actually run competently. Last three times we’ve gone to use it the trains have been cancelled.

    She wants to recreate BR.

    What do you think will happen?
    Eventually, the BR problems will resurface.
  • Does anyone know who this Al Carns is who keeps being touted by anonymous labour MPs as the surprise leader-in-waiting etc etc.?

    e.g.
    https://x.com/harriet_symonds/status/1998126014648713422

    I think we could do with a header.

    He's not even on BF list.

    Are we allowed to discuss AI?
    If not, maybe we can use Paul Simon as a euphemism.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,963

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    WTAF is Heidi Alexander smoking, and where can I get some?

    Transport Secretary Heidi Alexander said that the new design "isn't just a paint job", and that it represents "a new railway, casting off the frustrations of the past and focused entirely on delivering a proper public service for passengers".

    As she reintroduces the *BR* logo...

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g9kx0je10o

    The BR logo is perhaps the most brilliant piece of graphic design of the modern era, I have no complaints about seeing more of it.
    It's also become the recognised logo/ideogram for a railway in GB: just look at any Google map where the stations are. Sort of like Hoover (TM) for vacuum cleaners.
    It's also based on a track diagram showing a set of points, so is firmly rooted in function and railway tradition. A thing of genius.
    Some criticised it when it first came in in 1965 as it looked to them like a train smash ... though I don't know how much that was resentment at losing the Regional liveries and identities. It was part of a general makeover - things like the capital and lower case lettering on station signs to make them much easier to read in poor light/from a speeding train etc. compared to the original 1947 style makeover.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,963
    edited December 9
    DavidL said:

    Ratters said:

    HYUFD said:

    A fair test of who reads the header before commenting! Also, nice idea but Britain is nowhere near Canada and the Royal Navy is nowhere near big enough to defend Canadian waters.

    We need a bigger Royal Navy
    We've just decided to increase spending on families who don't work by £4bn.
    Most of the families affected by the two child cap have got an adult in work.

    Or are you thinking of pensioners?
    "We need to improve our terrible birthrate and stop relying on immigration"

    Also

    "We need to stop helping out people in work on modest salaries who have larger families"
    "We need to find a way of coping with a declining population"

    Why try to think of ways of trying to get people to do something they don't want to, and instead face up to reality?
    To slightly misquote Jane Austin it is a truth universally acknowledged, that a couple in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of children.

    If they don't have them they will spend their money frivolously.
    Not necessarily. They may e.g. donate to charities which help children, such as students. And they may have nieces/nephews.

    PS. When I was at uni I benefited from a fund set up by a couple (or perhaps the mother) whose child had died as a student at that university.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,648

    Ratters said:

    HYUFD said:

    A fair test of who reads the header before commenting! Also, nice idea but Britain is nowhere near Canada and the Royal Navy is nowhere near big enough to defend Canadian waters.

    We need a bigger Royal Navy
    We've just decided to increase spending on families who don't work by £4bn.
    Most of the families affected by the two child cap have got an adult in work.

    Or are you thinking of pensioners?
    "We need to improve our terrible birthrate and stop relying on immigration"

    Also

    "We need to stop helping out people in work on modest salaries who have larger families"
    "We need to find a way of coping with a declining population"

    Why try to think of ways of trying to get people to do something they don't want to, and instead face up to reality?
    On average women end their child-bearing years wishing that they had one more children then they had. We should be working out what is preventing them from having the children they want to have.

    My best guess is that it's down to women not finding the right person to have children with - so this is set to get worse as the incel generation matures, as we can see in South Korea with a complete collapse in the birth rate as women reject the patriarchal expectations they face.

    So you have two options. Either make it easier for women to have children alone, or address the ways in which male culture and society more generally is hostile to women and motherhood.
    Maybe people are being fussier about who they marry. You no longer need to be married to live a fulfilling life with lots of sex. You may never meet the right person. Why should you?

    Maybe it is down to choices. Those women are choosing to have careers, travel, whatever. Of course it comes with a cost, all choices do.

    As someone who has not had children, and does not think his life would be any better if he had them (but different of course) it seems to me that the breeders on here don't understand that people might have good, rational reasons for making the decisions they do
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,061

    Ratters said:

    HYUFD said:

    A fair test of who reads the header before commenting! Also, nice idea but Britain is nowhere near Canada and the Royal Navy is nowhere near big enough to defend Canadian waters.

    We need a bigger Royal Navy
    We've just decided to increase spending on families who don't work by £4bn.
    Most of the families affected by the two child cap have got an adult in work.

    Or are you thinking of pensioners?
    "We need to improve our terrible birthrate and stop relying on immigration"

    Also

    "We need to stop helping out people in work on modest salaries who have larger families"
    "We need to find a way of coping with a declining population"

    Why try to think of ways of trying to get people to do something they don't want to, and instead face up to reality?
    On average women end their child-bearing years wishing that they had one more children then they had. We should be working out what is preventing them from having the children they want to have.

    My best guess is that it's down to women not finding the right person to have children with - so this is set to get worse as the incel generation matures, as we can see in South Korea with a complete collapse in the birth rate as women reject the patriarchal expectations they face.

    So you have two options. Either make it easier for women to have children alone, or address the ways in which male culture and society more generally is hostile to women and motherhood.
    Maybe people are being fussier about who they marry. You no longer need to be married to live a fulfilling life with lots of sex. You may never meet the right person. Why should you?

    Maybe it is down to choices. Those women are choosing to have careers, travel, whatever. Of course it comes with a cost, all choices do.

    As someone who has not had children, and does not think his life would be any better if he had them (but different of course) it seems to me that the breeders on here don't understand that people might have good, rational reasons for making the decisions they do
    The Jamaicans have a saying I enjoy:

    "You can pick, pick, till you pick shit."
  • HYUFD said:

    Battlebus said:

    Brexit has crystallised the issue of British identity. Who are we and what are we for? There was merit in being in the EU for trade but our vastly different legal system does not sit well within the Code Napoleon of most of Europe. We are now adrift. GW's idea of seeking out a political alignment with a country with a similar Common Law basis has merit as a point of discussion but it seems unambitious. Surely the prize is to merge with the US which has far more resources than Canada. After all, the US President has far stronger links to the UK than a transient banker.

    Good, timely article GW. Hope it puts the Brexit discussion to bed (I hope)

    Culturally the UK is far closer to Carney's Canada than Trump's USA
    Which Canada - Vancouver or Calgary? Toronto or Winnipeg? And wouldn't Montreal be closer to Paris than London?

    It's a nice dream and I'm up for it personally, but do we really think an isolationist and unpredictable USA is going to sit by while its nearest neighbour forges military alliances with potentially hostile states?
    That was one of my immediate thoughts. An Anglo-Canadian Union means that the US has a nuclear power on its border. We know what they thought about that at the time of the Cuban missile crisis.

    That said, I think Gardenwalker's article is the sort of bold thinking that we need to take to protect our freedom in the future. At the moment we are drifting on as everything falls apart around us.
    Thanks LP.

    G'walker's thesis can be easily dismissed as fanciful, but it definitely has the germ of some interesting ideas, and one of these is to make Canada effectively a nuclear power. That would be a sobering thought for Trump, and successors like Vance and the mad coterie that surrounds him.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,141
    An intriguing thought experiment. Thank-you.

    FWIW I make it nearly a £5 trillion GDP (£4.72 trillion).

    I think the USA National Security Strategy (TLDR: a written down version of Vance's Munich speech, approximately) embracing an authoritarian multi-polar world makes this an even more important area.

    A fly-in-the-ointment may be just what will be left of the USA once the results of Trumpism have been absorbed, that is *if* the USA does not recover in some way.

    I'm perhaps more inclined towards a "NATO sans the USA" as a next step, but there may not be political vision for that in the shorter term. Perhaps KC needs to bang some heads together.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,498
    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Ratters said:

    HYUFD said:

    A fair test of who reads the header before commenting! Also, nice idea but Britain is nowhere near Canada and the Royal Navy is nowhere near big enough to defend Canadian waters.

    We need a bigger Royal Navy
    We've just decided to increase spending on families who don't work by £4bn.
    Most of the families affected by the two child cap have got an adult in work.

    Or are you thinking of pensioners?
    "We need to improve our terrible birthrate and stop relying on immigration"

    Also

    "We need to stop helping out people in work on modest salaries who have larger families"
    "We need to find a way of coping with a declining population"

    Why try to think of ways of trying to get people to do something they don't want to, and instead face up to reality?
    To slightly misquote Jane Austin it is a truth universally acknowledged, that a couple in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of children.

    If they don't have them they will spend their money frivolously.
    Two friends of mine with no children retired at 55 and spent 40 years living the high life. Cruises, a nice house, every luxury.

    One day, a niece of the wife said, 'Gosh, you are spending uncle's money fast, aren't you?'

    Back comes the reply, 'Yes, and then we're going to spend mine too.'
    Some people are entirely content with the idea that "Apres moi, le deluge." They care nothing for their relatives nor their societies.
    I find it more remarkable that most people don't do that. Objectively, you could have a much, much nicer life without children. You can do so much with your time. I reckon I get, what, five, six days to myself a year in which to watch cricket or go for a long, long walk, or a bike ride? Imagine having 100 days like that! But that's what life would be like without kids. And you could retire ten years earlier.
    Yet the number of people who voluntarily elect to take that path through life is a small minority. Of the childless I know, far more are childless by circumstance than choice. Certainly parenthood is not a choice I ever regret. (It did take, I grant you, a few months to get used to.)
  • MattW said:

    An intriguing thought experiment. Thank-you.

    FWIW I make it nearly a £5 trillion GDP (£4.72 trillion).

    I think the USA National Security Strategy (TLDR: a written down version of Vance's Munich speech, approximately) embracing an authoritarian multi-polar world makes this an even more important area.

    A fly-in-the-ointment may be just what will be left of the USA once the results of Trumpism have been absorbed, that is *if* the USA does not recover in some way.

    I'm perhaps more inclined towards a "NATO sans the USA" as a next step, but there may not be political vision for that in the shorter term. Perhaps KC needs to bang some heads together.

    I think we can keep NATO with the USA, but just with open eyes that we can not rely upon America so ensuring our own capabilities are operationally independent.

    Co-operation, not reliance.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,257
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    On topic, sort of.

    Matt Gurney: 'We will never fucking trust you again'
    Some blunt talk for our American neighbours at the Halifax International Security Forum.
    https://www.readtheline.ca/p/matt-gurney-we-will-never-fucking
    ..The forum is an annual gathering of senior military officers, defence and intelligence officials from across the free world, and representatives from the media, think tanks, large companies and civil society organizations whose work relates to defence and security issues or in some way seeks to promote and preserve a healthy democratic world. Funded by NATO, the Canadian government and private-sector sponsors, the event is a major part of Canada’s “soft power” offering to our allies — we host the big party and show everybody a good time. The actual schedule is split between on-the-record panel talks or presentations, off-the-record sessions, and informal time for mingling and schmoozing. I am grateful to have been invited to participate again this year.

    Especially this year. I’ve been going to the forum for years, and the event always had a strongly American flavour.

    Not anymore! Yankee went home.

    Like, literally. He was ordered to go home, or stay there. Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth ordered the Pentagon to avoid a series of high-profile annual defence summits. That includes Halifax, and others in places like Munich and Singapore, and even inside the United States itself. The reason, according to the Pentagon’s press apparatus, was that, and I swear to God this is the actual quote, such events promote “the evil of globalism, disdain for our great country and hatred for the president of the United States.”

    Oh. Well, then...

    ..Let me be clear about one thing: there were indeed a great many Americans at the forum in Halifax. I don’t want to suggest otherwise. There was a large Congressional Delegation, or a “CODEL,” present at the forum, as there is every year. If anything, I think this year had an unusually large CODEL. And it was a bipartisan one, too. But I noticed something interesting. They were all senators. No House reps. I can’t help but suspect that’s because they’re either planning to retire (some have said already they will) or because the longer six-year term afforded senators gives them some ability to withstand White House anger that House reps, with two-year terms, don’t have.

    There were plenty of other Americans from private companies, think tanks, academia, and many former and retired U.S. government officials. And I’m going to be extremely careful in how I describe this: I have a pretty good hunch that some U.S. military officers were indeed in attendance, because — gosh! what a coincidence! — they just happened to be in Halifax on vacation at the exact same time the forum was taking place...

    ..I was glad to see these Americans and had many fascinating chats with them. But I have to tell you all, dear readers, that the lack of official U.S. military and government representation was very obvious. And those brave Americans who did attend did not have an easy time...

    ...I worry that I might have been a bit brash with my American dining companions that night. (If any of them are reading this and if I was, sorry. Lot goin’ on over here.) But before I could worry about it too much, a senior military officer from a major (non-American) allied nation drove a stake right through the heart of the matter.

    America has blown 80 years of accumulated goodwill and trust among its allies, our American moderator was told. A rock-steady assumption of allied defence and security planning for literally generations has been that America would act in its own interests, sure, but that those interests would be rational, and would still generally value the institutions that America itself worked so hard to build after the Second World War. America’s recent actions have destroyed the ability of any ally to continue to have faith in America to act even within its own strategic self-interest, let alone that of any ally.

    The officer then said that even a swift return of America to its former role won’t matter.

    Because “we will never fucking trust you again.”

    The Americans at the table seemed somewhat startled by the heat of that pronouncement. I agreed with it entirely. So, it seemed to me, did most of the non-Americans.

    This wasn’t the only such moment at the forum this year, but it was, to me, the most interesting. And it was still being talked about the next day. “Thank God,” one allied official said to me. “Someone had to tell them.”


    If there’s one thing I think people should take from my visit to Halifax, it’s that. America’s former role is gone. And I think that Americans themselves are having the hardest time of all coming to terms with what that might actually mean in the long run.
    So - what are we going to do about it?

    As far as I can tell the non-American West is still hoping they will wake up and find that this nightmare is over, and that things can go back to how they were before. I don't see much evidence of countries acting on an irrevocable loss of trust in the US.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,437
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Ratters said:

    HYUFD said:

    A fair test of who reads the header before commenting! Also, nice idea but Britain is nowhere near Canada and the Royal Navy is nowhere near big enough to defend Canadian waters.

    We need a bigger Royal Navy
    We've just decided to increase spending on families who don't work by £4bn.
    Most of the families affected by the two child cap have got an adult in work.

    Or are you thinking of pensioners?
    "We need to improve our terrible birthrate and stop relying on immigration"

    Also

    "We need to stop helping out people in work on modest salaries who have larger families"
    "We need to find a way of coping with a declining population"

    Why try to think of ways of trying to get people to do something they don't want to, and instead face up to reality?
    To slightly misquote Jane Austin it is a truth universally acknowledged, that a couple in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of children.

    If they don't have them they will spend their money frivolously.
    Two friends of mine with no children retired at 55 and spent 40 years living the high life. Cruises, a nice house, every luxury.

    One day, a niece of the wife said, 'Gosh, you are spending uncle's money fast, aren't you?'

    Back comes the reply, 'Yes, and then we're going to spend mine too.'
    Not to bash other people's hard-earned pleasure, but to me a life devoted to having a good time would be boring & futile. I'm thinking of those e.g. who go and live on a cruise ship.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,905
    Dopermean said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "PolliticsUK
    @PolliticoUK

    🚨 Westminster Voting Intention:

    ➡️ REF: 27% (+1)
    🌹 LAB: 19% (=)
    🌳 CON: 18% (-1)
    🟢 GRN:,15% (-1)
    🔶 LDEM: 14% (=)

    From @YouGov

    From 7th - 8th December
    Changes with 1st December"

    https://x.com/PolliticoUK/status/1998323485660131409

    Sleazy, broken Tories & Polanski on the slide.
    *plaintively*
    How long is it before Kemi's BRILLIANCE in her budget response breaks through in the polling?
    I see the Farage pile-on is continuing
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/dec/09/reform-campaign-for-farages-clacton-seat-was-a-juggernaut-say-candidates

    Just wait until the Electoral Commission jumps into inaction
    What are the consequences if Farage is found to have broken the spending limit?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,963
    AnneJGP said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Ratters said:

    HYUFD said:

    A fair test of who reads the header before commenting! Also, nice idea but Britain is nowhere near Canada and the Royal Navy is nowhere near big enough to defend Canadian waters.

    We need a bigger Royal Navy
    We've just decided to increase spending on families who don't work by £4bn.
    Most of the families affected by the two child cap have got an adult in work.

    Or are you thinking of pensioners?
    "We need to improve our terrible birthrate and stop relying on immigration"

    Also

    "We need to stop helping out people in work on modest salaries who have larger families"
    "We need to find a way of coping with a declining population"

    Why try to think of ways of trying to get people to do something they don't want to, and instead face up to reality?
    To slightly misquote Jane Austin it is a truth universally acknowledged, that a couple in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of children.

    If they don't have them they will spend their money frivolously.
    Two friends of mine with no children retired at 55 and spent 40 years living the high life. Cruises, a nice house, every luxury.

    One day, a niece of the wife said, 'Gosh, you are spending uncle's money fast, aren't you?'

    Back comes the reply, 'Yes, and then we're going to spend mine too.'
    Not to bash other people's hard-earned pleasure, but to me a life devoted to having a good time would be boring & futile. I'm thinking of those e.g. who go and live on a cruise ship.
    Just been reading this: by Susan Mitchell with her husband the late Martin Parr doing the photos! Some interesting thoughts.

    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2025/jul/28/martin-parr-captures-life-on-cruise-liner-photo-essay
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,896
    AnneJGP said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Ratters said:

    HYUFD said:

    A fair test of who reads the header before commenting! Also, nice idea but Britain is nowhere near Canada and the Royal Navy is nowhere near big enough to defend Canadian waters.

    We need a bigger Royal Navy
    We've just decided to increase spending on families who don't work by £4bn.
    Most of the families affected by the two child cap have got an adult in work.

    Or are you thinking of pensioners?
    "We need to improve our terrible birthrate and stop relying on immigration"

    Also

    "We need to stop helping out people in work on modest salaries who have larger families"
    "We need to find a way of coping with a declining population"

    Why try to think of ways of trying to get people to do something they don't want to, and instead face up to reality?
    To slightly misquote Jane Austin it is a truth universally acknowledged, that a couple in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of children.

    If they don't have them they will spend their money frivolously.
    Two friends of mine with no children retired at 55 and spent 40 years living the high life. Cruises, a nice house, every luxury.

    One day, a niece of the wife said, 'Gosh, you are spending uncle's money fast, aren't you?'

    Back comes the reply, 'Yes, and then we're going to spend mine too.'
    Not to bash other people's hard-earned pleasure, but to me a life devoted to having a good time would be boring & futile. I'm thinking of those e.g. who go and live on a cruise ship.
    I’d agree.

    We did a two week cruise this year. By day 10 I was itching to come home.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,621
    edited December 9
    This is a good interesting header. Collaborating to protect the undersea cables is very much in the news at the moment, and a no brainer for any coalition of the friendly and innocent.

    I saw it on the news. In the Atlantic between us and Canada is an underwater cable box that needs looking after.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,141

    Does anyone know who this Al Carns is who keeps being touted by anonymous labour MPs as the surprise leader-in-waiting etc etc.?

    e.g.
    https://x.com/harriet_symonds/status/1998126014648713422

    I think we could do with a header.

    He's not even on BF list.

    Cairns not Carns, and my BF list has him as 75 for next Labour Leader.
    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/en/politics/uk-party-leaders/next-labour-leader-betting-1.170273835

    An impressive backstory.
  • Cookie said:

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Ratters said:

    HYUFD said:

    A fair test of who reads the header before commenting! Also, nice idea but Britain is nowhere near Canada and the Royal Navy is nowhere near big enough to defend Canadian waters.

    We need a bigger Royal Navy
    We've just decided to increase spending on families who don't work by £4bn.
    Most of the families affected by the two child cap have got an adult in work.

    Or are you thinking of pensioners?
    "We need to improve our terrible birthrate and stop relying on immigration"

    Also

    "We need to stop helping out people in work on modest salaries who have larger families"
    "We need to find a way of coping with a declining population"

    Why try to think of ways of trying to get people to do something they don't want to, and instead face up to reality?
    To slightly misquote Jane Austin it is a truth universally acknowledged, that a couple in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of children.

    If they don't have them they will spend their money frivolously.
    Two friends of mine with no children retired at 55 and spent 40 years living the high life. Cruises, a nice house, every luxury.

    One day, a niece of the wife said, 'Gosh, you are spending uncle's money fast, aren't you?'

    Back comes the reply, 'Yes, and then we're going to spend mine too.'
    Some people are entirely content with the idea that "Apres moi, le deluge." They care nothing for their relatives nor their societies.
    I find it more remarkable that most people don't do that. Objectively, you could have a much, much nicer life without children. You can do so much with your time. I reckon I get, what, five, six days to myself a year in which to watch cricket or go for a long, long walk, or a bike ride? Imagine having 100 days like that! But that's what life would be like without kids. And you could retire ten years earlier.
    Yet the number of people who voluntarily elect to take that path through life is a small minority. Of the childless I know, far more are childless by circumstance than choice. Certainly parenthood is not a choice I ever regret. (It did take, I grant you, a few months to get used to.)
    The film Parenthood told it like it is, and should be compulsory viewing for all teenagers below the age of sixteen:

    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098067/

    It would be infinitely more influential and humane than all those 'biology' lessons.
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,896
    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Ratters said:

    HYUFD said:

    A fair test of who reads the header before commenting! Also, nice idea but Britain is nowhere near Canada and the Royal Navy is nowhere near big enough to defend Canadian waters.

    We need a bigger Royal Navy
    We've just decided to increase spending on families who don't work by £4bn.
    Most of the families affected by the two child cap have got an adult in work.

    Or are you thinking of pensioners?
    "We need to improve our terrible birthrate and stop relying on immigration"

    Also

    "We need to stop helping out people in work on modest salaries who have larger families"
    "We need to find a way of coping with a declining population"

    Why try to think of ways of trying to get people to do something they don't want to, and instead face up to reality?
    To slightly misquote Jane Austin it is a truth universally acknowledged, that a couple in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of children.

    If they don't have them they will spend their money frivolously.
    Two friends of mine with no children retired at 55 and spent 40 years living the high life. Cruises, a nice house, every luxury.

    One day, a niece of the wife said, 'Gosh, you are spending uncle's money fast, aren't you?'

    Back comes the reply, 'Yes, and then we're going to spend mine too.'
    Some people are entirely content with the idea that "Apres moi, le deluge." They care nothing for their relatives nor their societies.
    We’ve told our dependents they can have the proceeds from the house but we aim to spend as much as we can before we expire.

    Our rationale is we’ve worked long and hard for what we have, gone without to pay into private pots, so we will enjoy it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,300

    Nigelb said:

    UK to scale back military training exercises outside Europe

    https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/uk-to-scale-back-military-training-exercises-outside-europe/
    ...Responding to a parliamentary question on future training plans, defence minister Al Carns said the services would continue to prioritise overseas activity only “in alignment with both our own and partners’ operational needs, as well as the priorities outlined in the Strategic Defence Review.”

    The Army will “reduce the number of overseas training exercises” from financial year 2026–27, a move described as necessary “to enable a greater focus on NATO commitments and enhancing land warfighting capabilities.” The adjustment will be carried out with international partners.

    The Royal Navy will also scale back non-European training. Carns said that “over the next four years, the Royal Navy will scale back its participation in overseas training outside the Europe, Atlantic, and Arctic theatre.” The change reflects the Navy’s “evolving global posture” as it concentrates resources on the Euro-Atlantic and Arctic regions, where it expects growing operational demand..

    Leaving Canada to its fate?
    You'd better ask Al Carns.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,120

    HYUFD said:

    Battlebus said:

    Brexit has crystallised the issue of British identity. Who are we and what are we for? There was merit in being in the EU for trade but our vastly different legal system does not sit well within the Code Napoleon of most of Europe. We are now adrift. GW's idea of seeking out a political alignment with a country with a similar Common Law basis has merit as a point of discussion but it seems unambitious. Surely the prize is to merge with the US which has far more resources than Canada. After all, the US President has far stronger links to the UK than a transient banker.

    Good, timely article GW. Hope it puts the Brexit discussion to bed (I hope)

    Culturally the UK is far closer to Carney's Canada than Trump's USA
    Which Canada - Vancouver or Calgary? Toronto or Winnipeg? And wouldn't Montreal be closer to Paris than London?

    It's a nice dream and I'm up for it personally, but do we really think an isolationist and unpredictable USA is going to sit by while its nearest neighbour forges military alliances with potentially hostile states?
    That was one of my immediate thoughts. An Anglo-Canadian Union means that the US has a nuclear power on its border. We know what they thought about that at the time of the Cuban missile crisis.

    That said, I think Gardenwalker's article is the sort of bold thinking that we need to take to protect our freedom in the future. At the moment we are drifting on as everything falls apart around us.
    Thanks LP.

    G'walker's thesis can be easily dismissed as fanciful, but it definitely has the germ of some interesting ideas, and one of these is to make Canada effectively a nuclear power. That would be a sobering thought for Trump, and successors like Vance and the mad coterie that surrounds him.
    Gives them the opportunity to invade, and cover to cancel any elections.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,621
    I pulled a cracker on Sunday, and got this joke. It’s sooooooooo funny,

    A weasel walks into a bar.
    Barman says, I’ve never served a weasel before, what can I get you?
    Pop, goes the weasel.

    Can you beat that one PB? 😄
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,141

    ydoethur said:

    WTAF is Heidi Alexander smoking, and where can I get some?

    Transport Secretary Heidi Alexander said that the new design "isn't just a paint job", and that it represents "a new railway, casting off the frustrations of the past and focused entirely on delivering a proper public service for passengers".

    As she reintroduces the *BR* logo...

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g9kx0je10o

    The BR logo is perhaps the most brilliant piece of graphic design of the modern era, I have no complaints about seeing more of it.
    Did that ever go out of use. I thought National Rail still used it ?

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,300
    Sean_F said:

    Ratters said:

    HYUFD said:

    A fair test of who reads the header before commenting! Also, nice idea but Britain is nowhere near Canada and the Royal Navy is nowhere near big enough to defend Canadian waters.

    We need a bigger Royal Navy
    We've just decided to increase spending on families who don't work by £4bn.
    Most of the families affected by the two child cap have got an adult in work.

    Or are you thinking of pensioners?
    "We need to improve our terrible birthrate and stop relying on immigration"

    Also

    "We need to stop helping out people in work on modest salaries who have larger families"
    "We need to find a way of coping with a declining population"

    Why try to think of ways of trying to get people to do something they don't want to, and instead face up to reality?
    On average women end their child-bearing years wishing that they had one more children then they had. We should be working out what is preventing them from having the children they want to have.

    My best guess is that it's down to women not finding the right person to have children with - so this is set to get worse as the incel generation matures, as we can see in South Korea with a complete collapse in the birth rate as women reject the patriarchal expectations they face.

    So you have two options. Either make it easier for women to have children alone, or address the ways in which male culture and society more generally is hostile to women and motherhood.
    Maybe people are being fussier about who they marry. You no longer need to be married to live a fulfilling life with lots of sex. You may never meet the right person. Why should you?

    Maybe it is down to choices. Those women are choosing to have careers, travel, whatever. Of course it comes with a cost, all choices do.

    As someone who has not had children, and does not think his life would be any better if he had them (but different of course) it seems to me that the breeders on here don't understand that people might have good, rational reasons for making the decisions they do
    The Jamaicans have a saying I enjoy:

    "You can pick, pick, till you pick shit."
    Is that their well known Tory leaders rule ?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,120

    Dopermean said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "PolliticsUK
    @PolliticoUK

    🚨 Westminster Voting Intention:

    ➡️ REF: 27% (+1)
    🌹 LAB: 19% (=)
    🌳 CON: 18% (-1)
    🟢 GRN:,15% (-1)
    🔶 LDEM: 14% (=)

    From @YouGov

    From 7th - 8th December
    Changes with 1st December"

    https://x.com/PolliticoUK/status/1998323485660131409

    Sleazy, broken Tories & Polanski on the slide.
    *plaintively*
    How long is it before Kemi's BRILLIANCE in her budget response breaks through in the polling?
    I see the Farage pile-on is continuing
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/dec/09/reform-campaign-for-farages-clacton-seat-was-a-juggernaut-say-candidates

    Just wait until the Electoral Commission jumps into inaction
    What are the consequences if Farage is found to have broken the spending limit?
    I suspect it would be fine.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,824
    Taz said:

    AnneJGP said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Ratters said:

    HYUFD said:

    A fair test of who reads the header before commenting! Also, nice idea but Britain is nowhere near Canada and the Royal Navy is nowhere near big enough to defend Canadian waters.

    We need a bigger Royal Navy
    We've just decided to increase spending on families who don't work by £4bn.
    Most of the families affected by the two child cap have got an adult in work.

    Or are you thinking of pensioners?
    "We need to improve our terrible birthrate and stop relying on immigration"

    Also

    "We need to stop helping out people in work on modest salaries who have larger families"
    "We need to find a way of coping with a declining population"

    Why try to think of ways of trying to get people to do something they don't want to, and instead face up to reality?
    To slightly misquote Jane Austin it is a truth universally acknowledged, that a couple in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of children.

    If they don't have them they will spend their money frivolously.
    Two friends of mine with no children retired at 55 and spent 40 years living the high life. Cruises, a nice house, every luxury.

    One day, a niece of the wife said, 'Gosh, you are spending uncle's money fast, aren't you?'

    Back comes the reply, 'Yes, and then we're going to spend mine too.'
    Not to bash other people's hard-earned pleasure, but to me a life devoted to having a good time would be boring & futile. I'm thinking of those e.g. who go and live on a cruise ship.
    I’d agree.

    We did a two week cruise this year. By day 10 I was itching to come home.
    It's a bugger when you get fleas on a cruise ship...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,824

    I pulled a cracker on Sunday, and got this joke. It’s sooooooooo funny,

    A weasel walks into a bar.
    Barman says, I’ve never served a weasel before, what can I get you?
    Pop, goes the weasel.

    Can you beat that one PB? 😄

    To be fair, the first six words were more interesting...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,824

    Dopermean said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "PolliticsUK
    @PolliticoUK

    🚨 Westminster Voting Intention:

    ➡️ REF: 27% (+1)
    🌹 LAB: 19% (=)
    🌳 CON: 18% (-1)
    🟢 GRN:,15% (-1)
    🔶 LDEM: 14% (=)

    From @YouGov

    From 7th - 8th December
    Changes with 1st December"

    https://x.com/PolliticoUK/status/1998323485660131409

    Sleazy, broken Tories & Polanski on the slide.
    *plaintively*
    How long is it before Kemi's BRILLIANCE in her budget response breaks through in the polling?
    I see the Farage pile-on is continuing
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/dec/09/reform-campaign-for-farages-clacton-seat-was-a-juggernaut-say-candidates

    Just wait until the Electoral Commission jumps into inaction
    What are the consequences if Farage is found to have broken the spending limit?
    Death. By bongo.

    Hopefully.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,603

    HYUFD said:

    Battlebus said:

    Brexit has crystallised the issue of British identity. Who are we and what are we for? There was merit in being in the EU for trade but our vastly different legal system does not sit well within the Code Napoleon of most of Europe. We are now adrift. GW's idea of seeking out a political alignment with a country with a similar Common Law basis has merit as a point of discussion but it seems unambitious. Surely the prize is to merge with the US which has far more resources than Canada. After all, the US President has far stronger links to the UK than a transient banker.

    Good, timely article GW. Hope it puts the Brexit discussion to bed (I hope)

    Culturally the UK is far closer to Carney's Canada than Trump's USA
    Which Canada - Vancouver or Calgary? Toronto or Winnipeg? And wouldn't Montreal be closer to Paris than London?

    It's a nice dream and I'm up for it personally, but do we really think an isolationist and unpredictable USA is going to sit by while its nearest neighbour forges military alliances with potentially hostile states?
    That was one of my immediate thoughts. An Anglo-Canadian Union means that the US has a nuclear power on its border. We know what they thought about that at the time of the Cuban missile crisis.

    That said, I think Gardenwalker's article is the sort of bold thinking that we need to take to protect our freedom in the future. At the moment we are drifting on as everything falls apart around us.
    Thanks LP.

    G'walker's thesis can be easily dismissed as fanciful, but it definitely has the germ of some interesting ideas, and one of these is to make Canada effectively a nuclear power. That would be a sobering thought for Trump, and successors like Vance and the mad coterie that surrounds him.
    Gives them the opportunity to invade, and cover to cancel any elections.
    They tried that in 1812, thereby ensuring Canada wouldn't join the United States, when it probably would have done in the normal course of events.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,061

    I pulled a cracker on Sunday, and got this joke. It’s sooooooooo funny,

    A weasel walks into a bar.
    Barman says, I’ve never served a weasel before, what can I get you?
    Pop, goes the weasel.

    Can you beat that one PB? 😄

    "But I shag just one sheep, and what do you think they call me...?"
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,300
    edited December 9
    MattW said:

    Does anyone know who this Al Carns is who keeps being touted by anonymous labour MPs as the surprise leader-in-waiting etc etc.?

    e.g.
    https://x.com/harriet_symonds/status/1998126014648713422

    I think we could do with a header.

    He's not even on BF list.

    Cairns not Carns, and my BF list has him as 75 for next Labour Leader.
    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/en/politics/uk-party-leaders/next-labour-leader-betting-1.170273835

    An impressive backstory.
    Carns not Cairns;
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Carns

    So well known the local newspaper spelled his surname both ways.
    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/who-alistair-carns-new-birmingham-29354382.amp
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,120
    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Battlebus said:

    Brexit has crystallised the issue of British identity. Who are we and what are we for? There was merit in being in the EU for trade but our vastly different legal system does not sit well within the Code Napoleon of most of Europe. We are now adrift. GW's idea of seeking out a political alignment with a country with a similar Common Law basis has merit as a point of discussion but it seems unambitious. Surely the prize is to merge with the US which has far more resources than Canada. After all, the US President has far stronger links to the UK than a transient banker.

    Good, timely article GW. Hope it puts the Brexit discussion to bed (I hope)

    Culturally the UK is far closer to Carney's Canada than Trump's USA
    Which Canada - Vancouver or Calgary? Toronto or Winnipeg? And wouldn't Montreal be closer to Paris than London?

    It's a nice dream and I'm up for it personally, but do we really think an isolationist and unpredictable USA is going to sit by while its nearest neighbour forges military alliances with potentially hostile states?
    That was one of my immediate thoughts. An Anglo-Canadian Union means that the US has a nuclear power on its border. We know what they thought about that at the time of the Cuban missile crisis.

    That said, I think Gardenwalker's article is the sort of bold thinking that we need to take to protect our freedom in the future. At the moment we are drifting on as everything falls apart around us.
    Thanks LP.

    G'walker's thesis can be easily dismissed as fanciful, but it definitely has the germ of some interesting ideas, and one of these is to make Canada effectively a nuclear power. That would be a sobering thought for Trump, and successors like Vance and the mad coterie that surrounds him.
    Gives them the opportunity to invade, and cover to cancel any elections.
    They tried that in 1812, thereby ensuring Canada wouldn't join the United States, when it probably would have done in the normal course of events.
    Who knows, once it settles down NY and California might decide they prefer Canada to the US.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,141
    Perun this week was about the US Navy's apparent inability to build anything.

    Perhaps *they* have more in common with Canada than we do :wink: .
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7aWmtOhMjo
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,648
    edited December 9
    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    WTAF is Heidi Alexander smoking, and where can I get some?

    Transport Secretary Heidi Alexander said that the new design "isn't just a paint job", and that it represents "a new railway, casting off the frustrations of the past and focused entirely on delivering a proper public service for passengers".

    As she reintroduces the *BR* logo...

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g9kx0je10o

    The BR logo is perhaps the most brilliant piece of graphic design of the modern era, I have no complaints about seeing more of it.
    Did that ever go out of use. I thought National Rail still used it ?

    They do, the icon for the National Rail app on my phone uses the logo

    https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=uk.co.nationalrail.google

    I think it has just become less visible as the train companies use their own logos

    It's on the London & SE route map too https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e8xgegruud3g/6r0rzYCSpaMX3OJ9aec9tq/6749aef0a7a8cf55b0ec9a7e92af2192/LondonSouthEast_NetworkRailcard_map_Feb25.pdf
  • MattWMattW Posts: 31,141
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    UK to scale back military training exercises outside Europe

    https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/uk-to-scale-back-military-training-exercises-outside-europe/
    ...Responding to a parliamentary question on future training plans, defence minister Al Carns said the services would continue to prioritise overseas activity only “in alignment with both our own and partners’ operational needs, as well as the priorities outlined in the Strategic Defence Review.”

    The Army will “reduce the number of overseas training exercises” from financial year 2026–27, a move described as necessary “to enable a greater focus on NATO commitments and enhancing land warfighting capabilities.” The adjustment will be carried out with international partners.

    The Royal Navy will also scale back non-European training. Carns said that “over the next four years, the Royal Navy will scale back its participation in overseas training outside the Europe, Atlantic, and Arctic theatre.” The change reflects the Navy’s “evolving global posture” as it concentrates resources on the Euro-Atlantic and Arctic regions, where it expects growing operational demand..

    Leaving Canada to its fate?
    You'd better ask Al Carns.
    Update: it seems that BF spelt it incorrectly.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,475
    edited December 9

    Taz said:

    AnneJGP said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Ratters said:

    HYUFD said:

    A fair test of who reads the header before commenting! Also, nice idea but Britain is nowhere near Canada and the Royal Navy is nowhere near big enough to defend Canadian waters.

    We need a bigger Royal Navy
    We've just decided to increase spending on families who don't work by £4bn.
    Most of the families affected by the two child cap have got an adult in work.

    Or are you thinking of pensioners?
    "We need to improve our terrible birthrate and stop relying on immigration"

    Also

    "We need to stop helping out people in work on modest salaries who have larger families"
    "We need to find a way of coping with a declining population"

    Why try to think of ways of trying to get people to do something they don't want to, and instead face up to reality?
    To slightly misquote Jane Austin it is a truth universally acknowledged, that a couple in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of children.

    If they don't have them they will spend their money frivolously.
    Two friends of mine with no children retired at 55 and spent 40 years living the high life. Cruises, a nice house, every luxury.

    One day, a niece of the wife said, 'Gosh, you are spending uncle's money fast, aren't you?'

    Back comes the reply, 'Yes, and then we're going to spend mine too.'
    Not to bash other people's hard-earned pleasure, but to me a life devoted to having a good time would be boring & futile. I'm thinking of those e.g. who go and live on a cruise ship.
    I’d agree.

    We did a two week cruise this year. By day 10 I was itching to come home.
    It's a bugger when you get fleas on a cruise ship...
    We have done many cruises from European, to Trans Atlantic, Trans Pacific, Scandinavian, the Artic, the Antarctic amongst others.

    We did not go to any shows, dances or games nights, as most if not all were discovery and nature adventures, and we were there to see and learn about our World by experiencing it, and our love of the sea, and nature in it's natural environment

    We did go to the travel lectures and interesting excursions, but good food and drink were not of any concern to us
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