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The one party coalition of chaos – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,816
edited 7:12AM in General
The one party coalition of chaos – politicalbetting.com

When it comes to this government the thing that has genuinely left me bewildered is how a government that last year was elected with a majority of 174 has looked so weak and chaotic, to be considered more chaotic than the last Conservative government is an achievement. These things matter as the voters generally do not like chaos.

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  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,454
    edited 6:51AM
    First! Into the chaos of PB
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,454
    edited 7:03AM
    An under-appreciated effect of coalition is that the stakes are higher and the cost greater for the sort of damaging leaking and briefing against colleagues that has afflicted this Labour and the last Tory government, and therefore it happens less often. Because ‘your side’ is in coalition with the other lot, there’s a strong centripetal force within each party, since briefing against your own colleagues risks giving an edge to the other side of the coalition, who are effectively your rivals, as well as to the opposition as your opponents. And while a degree of briefing against the other side of the coalition is inevitable, the risk of destabilising the whole arrangement means that it is done judiciously and tends to focus on the political argument rather than on the type of personal attacks and tittle-tattle that can come back to bite.

    There’s also less career incentive to destabilise a minister from the other half of the coalition, since if they get brought down you know they will be replaced from someone from the same party, and not by you or your friends. Which applies right up to the top - no LibDem had any reason to be undermining Cameron’s leadership of the Tories. Such trouble that there was mainly came from a minority within the Tory party who never reconciled themselves to coalition in the first place.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,454
    Things change, of course, if the major coalition partner looks likely to be able to win a majority on its own. But since governments are unpopular and its the opposition party that usually benefits, we didn’t see that post 2010.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,225
    FPT:

    F1: got to be honest, didn't see huge value here. Split one stake 60/40, with the larger part at 2.45 on Hulkenberg for points, smaller part on Ferrari (5.25) to have 1 or 2 cars not classified. Car's looked like a dog all weekend.

    https://morrisf1.blogspot.com/2025/11/qatar-2025-pre-race.html


    On-topic: it's pretty remarkable. It's also interesting to consider whether the rise of the Greens matters more than Reform.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,155
    Cicero said:

    If the coalition was a good government, we can now see it was largely due to the Liberal Democrats, given the fiasco the Tories created on their own.

    I have long pointed out that the Coalition would be looked back on as a golden period of good government. Of course its performance was helped by us still being in the EU...

    It doesn't mean the next coalition will be!

    Indeed it is pretty certain that the next government will be more chaotic and backbiting than this one.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,030
    FPT:

    SKS and Reeves will be under threat from within the Labour party as currently Labour have a large majority and (if you believe the OBR) an amazing amount of fiscal headroom to provide largesse for pet projects - despite Brexit, Covid and the slow demise of the City. And again, if the OBR is correct, it's quite an achievement for an economy to apparently shrug off these economic shocks in such as short time.

    Perhaps, as the Australians opine, we're all whinging Poms.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,238
    FPT
    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Today’s Rawnsley, nice ‘n early….

    If things go very right for the government, the increased fiscal headroom created by the chancellor could turn into a war-chest to scatter sweeteners at the voters before the next election.
    .

    That's an exceedingly optimistic assessment given how many of these tax rises will kick in 18 months before the election and actually need paying in the year before it.

    The sweeteners could be abandoning some of those items, though?

    In business, it’s known that a company that messes up and then deals very well with the resulting complaint can end up more popular than a company that provided good service in the first place. Maybe that’s what our cunning government has in mind?

    It could, for example, make a very good launchpad for a new Labour leader and PM, wanting to before the election that things are different under his or her new leadership
    This lot will be more like British Gas. Do something stupid and/or illegal, make it impossible to complain, admit the error but then do nothing about it, lie about what has happened, then grudgingly admit it, then implement the wrong solution in the wrong way and lie about that too, all while complacently saying how wonderful they are.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,843
    On topic, the Coalition majority of 77 was probably in the sweet spot. Big enough to withstand wobbles, not so big that everyone became careless. (The ghost of Francis Pym waves sadly.)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,155

    Foxy said:

    Cicero said:

    If the coalition was a good government, we can now see it was largely due to the Liberal Democrats, given the fiasco the Tories created on their own.

    I have long pointed out that the Coalition would be looked back on as a golden period of good government. Of course its performance was helped by us still being in the EU...

    It doesn't mean the next coalition will be!

    Indeed it is pretty certain that the next government will be more chaotic and backbiting than this one.
    Though the coalition's legacy looks less and less convincing as the skeletons fall out of the closet. See Triple Lock, Austerity-by-maintainence-holiday, Langley at Health, Gove at Education...
    The triple lock was fine for a period of catch up. It is carrying on indefinitely that is the problem. Similarly austerity.

    And yes, the conservative ministers were rarely as good as the LD ones (Cable being a rare exception of being as bad as the Tory ministers).

    Overall though the Coalition was far more competent and coherent than any government since. At least there was a plan...

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,238

    FPT:

    F1: got to be honest, didn't see huge value here. Split one stake 60/40, with the larger part at 2.45 on Hulkenberg for points, smaller part on Ferrari (5.25) to have 1 or 2 cars not classified. Car's looked like a dog all weekend.

    https://morrisf1.blogspot.com/2025/11/qatar-2025-pre-race.html

    Not so much the prancing horse as the prancing three-legged donkey.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,843
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Cicero said:

    If the coalition was a good government, we can now see it was largely due to the Liberal Democrats, given the fiasco the Tories created on their own.

    I have long pointed out that the Coalition would be looked back on as a golden period of good government. Of course its performance was helped by us still being in the EU...

    It doesn't mean the next coalition will be!

    Indeed it is pretty certain that the next government will be more chaotic and backbiting than this one.
    Though the coalition's legacy looks less and less convincing as the skeletons fall out of the closet. See Triple Lock, Austerity-by-maintainence-holiday, Langley at Health, Gove at Education...
    The triple lock was fine for a period of catch up. It is carrying on indefinitely that is the problem. Similarly austerity.

    And yes, the conservative ministers were rarely as good as the LD ones (Cable being a rare exception of being as bad as the Tory ministers).

    Overall though the Coalition was far more competent and coherent than any government since. At least there was a plan...

    There was a plan, and the fact of the coalition gave permission to have the Quad to deal with events, which helped with the stability. But some load-bearing bits of the plan were left out, presumably because they were too difficult.

    The 2010 government had one other huge advantage- there was a consensus that the UK was in a hole and it wouldn't be pleasant to get out of it. Any government entering office now is facing significant movements on the left and the right whose pitch is that it's trivially easy to solve our problems. Just do this One Painless Thing that Experts Don't Want You To Know.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,963
    IanB2 said:

    First! Into the chaos of PB

    We need a poll to tell us what percentage of posters think the site was less chaotic under Mike Smithson than it is under TSE, and who might be preferred to take over now.

    I'd go for MalcG myself. He'd stick it up 'em! :)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,155

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Cicero said:

    If the coalition was a good government, we can now see it was largely due to the Liberal Democrats, given the fiasco the Tories created on their own.

    I have long pointed out that the Coalition would be looked back on as a golden period of good government. Of course its performance was helped by us still being in the EU...

    It doesn't mean the next coalition will be!

    Indeed it is pretty certain that the next government will be more chaotic and backbiting than this one.
    Though the coalition's legacy looks less and less convincing as the skeletons fall out of the closet. See Triple Lock, Austerity-by-maintainence-holiday, Langley at Health, Gove at Education...
    The triple lock was fine for a period of catch up. It is carrying on indefinitely that is the problem. Similarly austerity.

    And yes, the conservative ministers were rarely as good as the LD ones (Cable being a rare exception of being as bad as the Tory ministers).

    Overall though the Coalition was far more competent and coherent than any government since. At least there was a plan...

    There was a plan, and the fact of the coalition gave permission to have the Quad to deal with events, which helped with the stability. But some load-bearing bits of the plan were left out, presumably because they were too difficult.

    The 2010 government had one other huge advantage- there was a consensus that the UK was in a hole and it wouldn't be pleasant to get out of it. Any government entering office now is facing significant movements on the left and the right whose pitch is that it's trivially easy to solve our problems. Just do this One Painless Thing that Experts Don't Want You To Know.
    I think that far from being an orderly people, we Britons are a disorderly bunch.

    We are perhaps becoming ungovernably so.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,238
    It is worth remembering that the last government also had, by historic standards, a very large majority. Larger than Blair or Brown in New Labour's final term, larger than Eden and Macmillan in the 1955-59 Parliament, larger than Heath, larger than Wilson except from 1966-68.

    That didn't stop factions forming. Johnson's messy resignation and Truss' decision to rely on a narrow clique of supporters were largely to blame, but not solely.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,238

    IanB2 said:

    First! Into the chaos of PB

    We need a poll to tell us what percentage of posters think the site was less chaotic under Mike Smithson than it is under TSE, and who might be preferred to take over now.

    I'd go for MalcG myself. He'd stick it up 'em! :)
    It would be a turnip for all our books.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,364

    Foxy said:

    Cicero said:

    If the coalition was a good government, we can now see it was largely due to the Liberal Democrats, given the fiasco the Tories created on their own.

    I have long pointed out that the Coalition would be looked back on as a golden period of good government. Of course its performance was helped by us still being in the EU...

    It doesn't mean the next coalition will be!

    Indeed it is pretty certain that the next government will be more chaotic and backbiting than this one.
    Though the coalition's legacy looks less and less convincing as the skeletons fall out of the closet. See Triple Lock, Austerity-by-maintainence-holiday, Langley at Health, Gove at Education...
    The way the Coalition tried to balance the books by targeting spending cuts in poorer areas of the north of England also led to Brexit, the biggest policy error of the postwar period which will hobble the UK for generations.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,225
    ydoethur said:

    It is worth remembering that the last government also had, by historic standards, a very large majority. Larger than Blair or Brown in New Labour's final term, larger than Eden and Macmillan in the 1955-59 Parliament, larger than Heath, larger than Wilson except from 1966-68.

    That didn't stop factions forming. Johnson's messy resignation and Truss' decision to rely on a narrow clique of supporters were largely to blame, but not solely.

    Yes, but that was at the end of a long period in office and followed Johnson's ridiculous personality cult and tossing overboard those who didn't swear fealty earnestly enough. Having internal problems in the first years following a landslide victory is rather astonishing.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,886

    ydoethur said:

    It is worth remembering that the last government also had, by historic standards, a very large majority. Larger than Blair or Brown in New Labour's final term, larger than Eden and Macmillan in the 1955-59 Parliament, larger than Heath, larger than Wilson except from 1966-68.

    That didn't stop factions forming. Johnson's messy resignation and Truss' decision to rely on a narrow clique of supporters were largely to blame, but not solely.

    Yes, but that was at the end of a long period in office and followed Johnson's ridiculous personality cult and tossing overboard those who didn't swear fealty earnestly enough. Having internal problems in the first years following a landslide victory is rather astonishing.
    It's what happens when you have back benches full of social workers. Running the economy is someone else's responsibility.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,007
    Happy St. Andrew's Day, from everyone at the Labour Party.
    https://x.com/UKLabour/status/1995043886931009781
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,841
    Yes the Cameron, Osborne and Clegg government, even the Sunak and Hunt government look strong and stable and competent compared to the Starmer and Reeves government and most voters agree. If Labour get back in at the next general election, which on current polls is a big if, it will likely be propped up by the LDs with near zero chance of another Labour majority
  • TimSTimS Posts: 16,469
    Battlebus said:

    FPT:

    SKS and Reeves will be under threat from within the Labour party as currently Labour have a large majority and (if you believe the OBR) an amazing amount of fiscal headroom to provide largesse for pet projects - despite Brexit, Covid and the slow demise of the City. And again, if the OBR is correct, it's quite an achievement for an economy to apparently shrug off these economic shocks in such as short time.

    Perhaps, as the Australians opine, we're all whinging Poms.

    We really are a whingey nation. Other countries are angry, or miserable, or chippy. We’re whingey.

    To mis-coin one of the great phrases about economic recovery: We have nothing to whinge about but whinging itself.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,841

    Foxy said:

    Cicero said:

    If the coalition was a good government, we can now see it was largely due to the Liberal Democrats, given the fiasco the Tories created on their own.

    I have long pointed out that the Coalition would be looked back on as a golden period of good government. Of course its performance was helped by us still being in the EU...

    It doesn't mean the next coalition will be!

    Indeed it is pretty certain that the next government will be more chaotic and backbiting than this one.
    Though the coalition's legacy looks less and less convincing as the skeletons fall out of the closet. See Triple Lock, Austerity-by-maintainence-holiday, Langley at Health, Gove at Education...
    The way the Coalition tried to balance the books by targeting spending cuts in poorer areas of the north of England also led to Brexit, the biggest policy error of the postwar period which will hobble the UK for generations.
    Blair's failure to impose transition controls on free movement from the new accession nations was a bigger factor in Brexit
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,678

    IanB2 said:

    First! Into the chaos of PB

    We need a poll to tell us what percentage of posters think the site was less chaotic under Mike Smithson than it is under TSE, and who might be preferred to take over now.

    I'd go for MalcG myself. He'd stick it up 'em! :)
    Yeah, same here. MalcG would be an interesting pick. Liven up things.
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,678

    ydoethur said:

    It is worth remembering that the last government also had, by historic standards, a very large majority. Larger than Blair or Brown in New Labour's final term, larger than Eden and Macmillan in the 1955-59 Parliament, larger than Heath, larger than Wilson except from 1966-68.

    That didn't stop factions forming. Johnson's messy resignation and Truss' decision to rely on a narrow clique of supporters were largely to blame, but not solely.

    Yes, but that was at the end of a long period in office and followed Johnson's ridiculous personality cult and tossing overboard those who didn't swear fealty earnestly enough. Having internal problems in the first years following a landslide victory is rather astonishing.
    It's what happens when you have back benches full of social workers. Running the economy is someone else's responsibility.
    Social workers who don’t like making tough decisions.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,155
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Cicero said:

    If the coalition was a good government, we can now see it was largely due to the Liberal Democrats, given the fiasco the Tories created on their own.

    I have long pointed out that the Coalition would be looked back on as a golden period of good government. Of course its performance was helped by us still being in the EU...

    It doesn't mean the next coalition will be!

    Indeed it is pretty certain that the next government will be more chaotic and backbiting than this one.
    Though the coalition's legacy looks less and less convincing as the skeletons fall out of the closet. See Triple Lock, Austerity-by-maintainence-holiday, Langley at Health, Gove at Education...
    The way the Coalition tried to balance the books by targeting spending cuts in poorer areas of the north of England also led to Brexit, the biggest policy error of the postwar period which will hobble the UK for generations.
    Blair's failure to impose transition controls on free movement from the new accession nations was a bigger factor in Brexit
    I think the roots of Brexit go back to Mrs Thatcher's harrying of the North. It is no co-incidence that it is the old coalfields that were most Brexity. It was seen as a way to get back at the South East.

    Ironically (and predictably) it is Leaverstan that has been most damaged while Remania has continued to prosper. The penny doesnt seemed to have dropped in the old coalfields so it looks as if they are going back for another swig of Farage's poison.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 7,088
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Cicero said:

    If the coalition was a good government, we can now see it was largely due to the Liberal Democrats, given the fiasco the Tories created on their own.

    I have long pointed out that the Coalition would be looked back on as a golden period of good government. Of course its performance was helped by us still being in the EU...

    It doesn't mean the next coalition will be!

    Indeed it is pretty certain that the next government will be more chaotic and backbiting than this one.
    Though the coalition's legacy looks less and less convincing as the skeletons fall out of the closet. See Triple Lock, Austerity-by-maintainence-holiday, Langley at Health, Gove at Education...
    The way the Coalition tried to balance the books by targeting spending cuts in poorer areas of the north of England also led to Brexit, the biggest policy error of the postwar period which will hobble the UK for generations.
    Blair's failure to impose transition controls on free movement from the new accession nations was a bigger factor in Brexit
    I think the roots of Brexit go back to Mrs Thatcher's harrying of the North. It is no co-incidence that it is the old coalfields that were most Brexity. It was seen as a way to get back at the South East.

    Ironically (and predictably) it is Leaverstan that has been most damaged while Remania has continued to prosper. The penny doesnt seemed to have dropped in the old coalfields so it looks as if they are going back for another swig of Farage's poison.
    Remaniacs do shout the loudest
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,609

    ydoethur said:

    It is worth remembering that the last government also had, by historic standards, a very large majority. Larger than Blair or Brown in New Labour's final term, larger than Eden and Macmillan in the 1955-59 Parliament, larger than Heath, larger than Wilson except from 1966-68.

    That didn't stop factions forming. Johnson's messy resignation and Truss' decision to rely on a narrow clique of supporters were largely to blame, but not solely.

    Yes, but that was at the end of a long period in office and followed Johnson's ridiculous personality cult and tossing overboard those who didn't swear fealty earnestly enough. Having internal problems in the first years following a landslide victory is rather astonishing.
    It's what happens when you have back benches full of social workers. Running the economy is someone else's responsibility.
    Better than hedge funds or back pocketing from the Russians
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,238
    Taz said:

    IanB2 said:

    First! Into the chaos of PB

    We need a poll to tell us what percentage of posters think the site was less chaotic under Mike Smithson than it is under TSE, and who might be preferred to take over now.

    I'd go for MalcG myself. He'd stick it up 'em! :)
    Yeah, same here. MalcG would be an interesting pick. Liven up things.
    I would have thought the number of people banned with a loud cry of 'stupid bollox' would actually ultimately quieten things down...
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,960
    There's probably a mathematical formula for how and why a government is chaotic, and appears so to the voting public. Perhaps the big factors are:

    The actual political acumen and quality of the leadership and MPs.
    The presence of a single overwhelming uniting issue (eg WWII).
    The situation a new government/leadership inherits.
    The depth of preparation before undertaking government.
    Quality of communication.

    On these five out of 10, I score, IMHO, 3, 2, 1, 0, 1. This is not of course all someone's fault.

    However, I wonder if there is a sixth compounding issue of particular relevance now, which is:

    The number and salience of issues about which it is obvious the government has to mislead, evade, lie or distort.

    Here are some right now:

    The breakdown of the western alliance and the extent to which the USA is not a reliable friend
    The capacity of the UK or western Europe to defend itself or others
    The effects of Brexit as it was delivered and the political inability to resolve it
    The degree to which the UK is owned by others
    The intractability of worklessness
    The attractions of not working for a minority but still millions of people
    Debt and deficit
    The attractiveness to the treasury of inflation.

    Communication is hard when there is so much to double think about.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 45,330

    IanB2 said:

    First! Into the chaos of PB

    We need a poll to tell us what percentage of posters think the site was less chaotic under Mike Smithson than it is under TSE, and who might be preferred to take over now.

    I'd go for MalcG myself. He'd stick it up 'em! :)
    Perish the thought Peter
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,353
    "chaotic" is an interesting word here. I would happily describe the current government as apparently operating without anything resembling an overarching plan, doing the easy or short term thing rather than the right thing, and rather prone to u-turns in the face of difficulties, but I don't think "chaotic" would be the word I'd have reached for.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 45,330
    Taz said:

    IanB2 said:

    First! Into the chaos of PB

    We need a poll to tell us what percentage of posters think the site was less chaotic under Mike Smithson than it is under TSE, and who might be preferred to take over now.

    I'd go for MalcG myself. He'd stick it up 'em! :)
    Yeah, same here. MalcG would be an interesting pick. Liven up things.
    Don't encourage them Taz
  • AramintaMoonbeamQCAramintaMoonbeamQC Posts: 4,010
    pm215 said:

    "chaotic" is an interesting word here. I would happily describe the current government as apparently operating without anything resembling an overarching plan, doing the easy or short term thing rather than the right thing, and rather prone to u-turns in the face of difficulties, but I don't think "chaotic" would be the word I'd have reached for.

    Shambolic more than chaotic.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,454
    malcolmg said:

    IanB2 said:

    First! Into the chaos of PB

    We need a poll to tell us what percentage of posters think the site was less chaotic under Mike Smithson than it is under TSE, and who might be preferred to take over now.

    I'd go for MalcG myself. He'd stick it up 'em! :)
    Perish the thought Peter
    T'would be like Father Jack taking over from Father Ted
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,291

    ydoethur said:

    It is worth remembering that the last government also had, by historic standards, a very large majority. Larger than Blair or Brown in New Labour's final term, larger than Eden and Macmillan in the 1955-59 Parliament, larger than Heath, larger than Wilson except from 1966-68.

    That didn't stop factions forming. Johnson's messy resignation and Truss' decision to rely on a narrow clique of supporters were largely to blame, but not solely.

    Yes, but that was at the end of a long period in office and followed Johnson's ridiculous personality cult and tossing overboard those who didn't swear fealty earnestly enough. Having internal problems in the first years following a landslide victory is rather astonishing.
    It's what happens when you have back benches full of social workers. Running the economy is someone else's responsibility.
    The back benches are not full of social workers. The commonest prior job is possibly lawyer.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,843

    Foxy said:

    Cicero said:

    If the coalition was a good government, we can now see it was largely due to the Liberal Democrats, given the fiasco the Tories created on their own.

    I have long pointed out that the Coalition would be looked back on as a golden period of good government. Of course its performance was helped by us still being in the EU...

    It doesn't mean the next coalition will be!

    Indeed it is pretty certain that the next government will be more chaotic and backbiting than this one.
    Though the coalition's legacy looks less and less convincing as the skeletons fall out of the closet. See Triple Lock, Austerity-by-maintainence-holiday, Langley at Health, Gove at Education...
    The way the Coalition tried to balance the books by targeting spending cuts in poorer areas of the north of England also led to Brexit, the biggest policy error of the postwar period which will hobble the UK for generations.
    Talking of which, another perspective on that report that Brexit backers were soo keen to rubbish overnight;

    Yet the pursuit of truth demands we try to overcome such cognitive biases. I was part of the small band of Economists for Brexit. We argued, in good faith, that disentangling ourselves from the EU would unlock long-term economic potential via more policy freedom. Nine years on, we cannot pretend things have gone well so far.

    https://www.thetimes.com/article/d677a43f-837f-4725-a45e-2f90ea15ce86?shareToken=0aed068b29eebf3d5cd07ff8ffb62e2c

    Trouble is that we have the frictional downsides, but the policy freedom remains elusive.

    Now that doesn't have to mean a Breversal, or even a Brapprochment to smooth away the worst of the frictions. We could even decide that Brexit has made us poorer in cash terms, but richer in the ways that really matter.

    But if the last of those is what we want, I don't think we can complain too much about being required to pay for those (luxury) beliefs.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,800
    edited 9:03AM
    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is worth remembering that the last government also had, by historic standards, a very large majority. Larger than Blair or Brown in New Labour's final term, larger than Eden and Macmillan in the 1955-59 Parliament, larger than Heath, larger than Wilson except from 1966-68.

    That didn't stop factions forming. Johnson's messy resignation and Truss' decision to rely on a narrow clique of supporters were largely to blame, but not solely.

    Yes, but that was at the end of a long period in office and followed Johnson's ridiculous personality cult and tossing overboard those who didn't swear fealty earnestly enough. Having internal problems in the first years following a landslide victory is rather astonishing.
    It's what happens when you have back benches full of social workers. Running the economy is someone else's responsibility.
    Social workers who don’t like making tough decisions.
    Not convincing. Social workers have been a hate figure of the right for decades. I remember when an older relative claimed that social workers were getting evil children off punishment because someone stole their teddy bear when they were small. And that was in the 1980s.

    Actually thet have a shit job even when it goers more or less OK. And the same rightists who complain about their being employed in the first place and condone their understaffing and overwork are the first to complain about them when things go wrong.

    I don't know any social workers or have any relatives who are. It's just so obvious.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,843
    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is worth remembering that the last government also had, by historic standards, a very large majority. Larger than Blair or Brown in New Labour's final term, larger than Eden and Macmillan in the 1955-59 Parliament, larger than Heath, larger than Wilson except from 1966-68.

    That didn't stop factions forming. Johnson's messy resignation and Truss' decision to rely on a narrow clique of supporters were largely to blame, but not solely.

    Yes, but that was at the end of a long period in office and followed Johnson's ridiculous personality cult and tossing overboard those who didn't swear fealty earnestly enough. Having internal problems in the first years following a landslide victory is rather astonishing.
    It's what happens when you have back benches full of social workers. Running the economy is someone else's responsibility.
    Social workers who don’t like making tough decisions.
    There is not a social worker born who lasts more than five minutes who isn't able to take tough decisions. By the time pretty much *anything* gets to social services all that is left is a very difficult choice between at least two suboptimal outcomes. The only exception would be a child living temporarily with a close family member for educational reasons.
    Yes, but people who condemn social workers know all about their wet hypocrisy. There was that fly-on-the wall documentary on Radio 4. What was it called...

    Oh, that's right- Claire In The Community.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,155

    Foxy said:

    Cicero said:

    If the coalition was a good government, we can now see it was largely due to the Liberal Democrats, given the fiasco the Tories created on their own.

    I have long pointed out that the Coalition would be looked back on as a golden period of good government. Of course its performance was helped by us still being in the EU...

    It doesn't mean the next coalition will be!

    Indeed it is pretty certain that the next government will be more chaotic and backbiting than this one.
    Though the coalition's legacy looks less and less convincing as the skeletons fall out of the closet. See Triple Lock, Austerity-by-maintainence-holiday, Langley at Health, Gove at Education...
    The way the Coalition tried to balance the books by targeting spending cuts in poorer areas of the north of England also led to Brexit, the biggest policy error of the postwar period which will hobble the UK for generations.
    Talking of which, another perspective on that report that Brexit backers were soo keen to rubbish overnight;

    Yet the pursuit of truth demands we try to overcome such cognitive biases. I was part of the small band of Economists for Brexit. We argued, in good faith, that disentangling ourselves from the EU would unlock long-term economic potential via more policy freedom. Nine years on, we cannot pretend things have gone well so far.

    https://www.thetimes.com/article/d677a43f-837f-4725-a45e-2f90ea15ce86?shareToken=0aed068b29eebf3d5cd07ff8ffb62e2c

    Trouble is that we have the frictional downsides, but the policy freedom remains elusive.

    Now that doesn't have to mean a Breversal, or even a Brapprochment to smooth away the worst of the frictions. We could even decide that Brexit has made us poorer in cash terms, but richer in the ways that really matter.

    But if the last of those is what we want, I don't think we can complain too much about being required to pay for those (luxury) beliefs.
    Yes, I have a modicum of respect for those Brexiteers that claim the economic damage a price well worth paying for sovereignty. I think them wrong and that sovereignity illusory as we are goverened by forces such as the international bond markets over which we have little sovereignty and are bullied over tariffs and the like by capricious tyrants like Trump.

    Higher taxes and run down towns are the price of Brexit.
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,678
    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is worth remembering that the last government also had, by historic standards, a very large majority. Larger than Blair or Brown in New Labour's final term, larger than Eden and Macmillan in the 1955-59 Parliament, larger than Heath, larger than Wilson except from 1966-68.

    That didn't stop factions forming. Johnson's messy resignation and Truss' decision to rely on a narrow clique of supporters were largely to blame, but not solely.

    Yes, but that was at the end of a long period in office and followed Johnson's ridiculous personality cult and tossing overboard those who didn't swear fealty earnestly enough. Having internal problems in the first years following a landslide victory is rather astonishing.
    It's what happens when you have back benches full of social workers. Running the economy is someone else's responsibility.
    Social workers who don’t like making tough decisions.
    There is not a social worker born who lasts more than five minutes who isn't able to take tough decisions. By the time pretty much *anything* gets to social services all that is left is a very difficult choice between at least two suboptimal outcomes. The only exception would be a child living temporarily with a close family member for educational reasons.
    I am talking about the MPs who were described as social workers.

    They don’t like taking tough decisions as we saw with winter fuel and reducing the benefits bill.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,807
    I'm kind of skeptical about polling like this, I think a voter who is miffed at the government will tend to pick whatever sounds worst for them.
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,678
    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is worth remembering that the last government also had, by historic standards, a very large majority. Larger than Blair or Brown in New Labour's final term, larger than Eden and Macmillan in the 1955-59 Parliament, larger than Heath, larger than Wilson except from 1966-68.

    That didn't stop factions forming. Johnson's messy resignation and Truss' decision to rely on a narrow clique of supporters were largely to blame, but not solely.

    Yes, but that was at the end of a long period in office and followed Johnson's ridiculous personality cult and tossing overboard those who didn't swear fealty earnestly enough. Having internal problems in the first years following a landslide victory is rather astonishing.
    It's what happens when you have back benches full of social workers. Running the economy is someone else's responsibility.
    Social workers who don’t like making tough decisions.
    Not convincing. Social workers have been a hate figure of the right for decades. I remember when an older relative claimed that social workers were getting evil children off punishment because someone stole their teddy bear when they were small. And that was in the 1980s.

    Actually thet have a shit job even when it goers more or less OK. And the same rightists who complain about their being employed in the first place and condone their understaffing and overwork are the first to complain about them when things go wrong.

    I don't know any social workers or have any relatives who are. It's just so obvious.
    I’m referring to our members of parliament who, were described as social workers by someone else, lack the ability to take a tough decision. 🤷‍♂️
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,238
    edited 9:14AM
    Taz said:

    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is worth remembering that the last government also had, by historic standards, a very large majority. Larger than Blair or Brown in New Labour's final term, larger than Eden and Macmillan in the 1955-59 Parliament, larger than Heath, larger than Wilson except from 1966-68.

    That didn't stop factions forming. Johnson's messy resignation and Truss' decision to rely on a narrow clique of supporters were largely to blame, but not solely.

    Yes, but that was at the end of a long period in office and followed Johnson's ridiculous personality cult and tossing overboard those who didn't swear fealty earnestly enough. Having internal problems in the first years following a landslide victory is rather astonishing.
    It's what happens when you have back benches full of social workers. Running the economy is someone else's responsibility.
    Social workers who don’t like making tough decisions.
    Not convincing. Social workers have been a hate figure of the right for decades. I remember when an older relative claimed that social workers were getting evil children off punishment because someone stole their teddy bear when they were small. And that was in the 1980s.

    Actually thet have a shit job even when it goers more or less OK. And the same rightists who complain about their being employed in the first place and condone their understaffing and overwork are the first to complain about them when things go wrong.

    I don't know any social workers or have any relatives who are. It's just so obvious.
    I’m referring to our members of parliament who, were described as social workers by someone else, lack the ability to take a tough decision. 🤷‍♂️
    Ah. Sorry. I didn't read that way (obviously).

    I would add that while there are times social workers do get things terribly wrong, it does raise my hackles when they get criticised given the very difficult job they have, which is why I snapped when I thought you were accusing them of being soft. Again, apologies.
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,678
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Cicero said:

    If the coalition was a good government, we can now see it was largely due to the Liberal Democrats, given the fiasco the Tories created on their own.

    I have long pointed out that the Coalition would be looked back on as a golden period of good government. Of course its performance was helped by us still being in the EU...

    It doesn't mean the next coalition will be!

    Indeed it is pretty certain that the next government will be more chaotic and backbiting than this one.
    Though the coalition's legacy looks less and less convincing as the skeletons fall out of the closet. See Triple Lock, Austerity-by-maintainence-holiday, Langley at Health, Gove at Education...
    The way the Coalition tried to balance the books by targeting spending cuts in poorer areas of the north of England also led to Brexit, the biggest policy error of the postwar period which will hobble the UK for generations.
    Talking of which, another perspective on that report that Brexit backers were soo keen to rubbish overnight;

    Yet the pursuit of truth demands we try to overcome such cognitive biases. I was part of the small band of Economists for Brexit. We argued, in good faith, that disentangling ourselves from the EU would unlock long-term economic potential via more policy freedom. Nine years on, we cannot pretend things have gone well so far.

    https://www.thetimes.com/article/d677a43f-837f-4725-a45e-2f90ea15ce86?shareToken=0aed068b29eebf3d5cd07ff8ffb62e2c

    Trouble is that we have the frictional downsides, but the policy freedom remains elusive.

    Now that doesn't have to mean a Breversal, or even a Brapprochment to smooth away the worst of the frictions. We could even decide that Brexit has made us poorer in cash terms, but richer in the ways that really matter.

    But if the last of those is what we want, I don't think we can complain too much about being required to pay for those (luxury) beliefs.
    Yes, I have a modicum of respect for those Brexiteers that claim the economic damage a price well worth paying for sovereignty. I think them wrong and that sovereignity illusory as we are goverened by forces such as the international bond markets over which we have little sovereignty and are bullied over tariffs and the like by capricious tyrants like Trump.

    Higher taxes and run down towns are the price of Brexit.
    Good point as we had neither prior to Brexit !
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,678
    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is worth remembering that the last government also had, by historic standards, a very large majority. Larger than Blair or Brown in New Labour's final term, larger than Eden and Macmillan in the 1955-59 Parliament, larger than Heath, larger than Wilson except from 1966-68.

    That didn't stop factions forming. Johnson's messy resignation and Truss' decision to rely on a narrow clique of supporters were largely to blame, but not solely.

    Yes, but that was at the end of a long period in office and followed Johnson's ridiculous personality cult and tossing overboard those who didn't swear fealty earnestly enough. Having internal problems in the first years following a landslide victory is rather astonishing.
    It's what happens when you have back benches full of social workers. Running the economy is someone else's responsibility.
    Social workers who don’t like making tough decisions.
    Not convincing. Social workers have been a hate figure of the right for decades. I remember when an older relative claimed that social workers were getting evil children off punishment because someone stole their teddy bear when they were small. And that was in the 1980s.

    Actually thet have a shit job even when it goers more or less OK. And the same rightists who complain about their being employed in the first place and condone their understaffing and overwork are the first to complain about them when things go wrong.

    I don't know any social workers or have any relatives who are. It's just so obvious.
    I’m referring to our members of parliament who, were described as social workers by someone else, lack the ability to take a tough decision. 🤷‍♂️
    Ah. Sorry. I didn't read that way (obviously).
    NP 👍
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,935
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Cicero said:

    If the coalition was a good government, we can now see it was largely due to the Liberal Democrats, given the fiasco the Tories created on their own.

    I have long pointed out that the Coalition would be looked back on as a golden period of good government. Of course its performance was helped by us still being in the EU...

    It doesn't mean the next coalition will be!

    Indeed it is pretty certain that the next government will be more chaotic and backbiting than this one.
    Though the coalition's legacy looks less and less convincing as the skeletons fall out of the closet. See Triple Lock, Austerity-by-maintainence-holiday, Langley at Health, Gove at Education...
    The triple lock was fine for a period of catch up. It is carrying on indefinitely that is the problem. Similarly austerity.

    And yes, the conservative ministers were rarely as good as the LD ones (Cable being a rare exception of being as bad as the Tory ministers).

    Overall though the Coalition was far more competent and coherent than any government since. At least there was a plan...

    It's a bit hard to say how Osborne's "long term economic plan" might have have progressed, since it was derailed by the Brexit vote.

    And while it was far from being a perfect government, it was at the very least semi-coherent, something you can say of none of its successors.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,632
    Morning all :)

    The modern media cycle has changed how Government is reported and how politics, as a result, functions. I suspect there has always been instability in Government, disputes, turf wars, personality clashes etc, etc but we knew a lot less about them than we do now because of the 24/7 news cycle which didn't exist back in the day.

    The over-analysing of every minor infraction, the constant rehashing of the same debate on places like GB News (the rolling news channel is a thing of the last 30 years) accentuates a sense of chaos which I suspect isn't really there.

    To fill up the time means repeating the same meme or theme ad infinitum and this is especially true when you are hostile to the incumbent administration.

    I don't consider this Government "chaotic" in any real sense - chaos is when you are looking at every Commons vote to see if the Government will be defeated - when you have a majority of 70, 80, 144 or even 170, that rarely happens so the sense of crisis has to be manufactured elsewhere.

    That's NOT to say this Government is doing well - it has made a lot of silly mistakes and been far too timid -but the notion with a huff and a puff it will all come tumbling down is absurd - even minority Governments survive longer than you might think.

    It keeps sites like this busy and an opportunity for the anti-Government keyboard warriors to vent periodically or daily - I do think after 14 years in Government, some Conservative-inclined seem to think shouting a lot and complaining about everything will get them back to where they "belong" - it doesn't and it won't.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,935
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is worth remembering that the last government also had, by historic standards, a very large majority. Larger than Blair or Brown in New Labour's final term, larger than Eden and Macmillan in the 1955-59 Parliament, larger than Heath, larger than Wilson except from 1966-68.

    That didn't stop factions forming. Johnson's messy resignation and Truss' decision to rely on a narrow clique of supporters were largely to blame, but not solely.

    Yes, but that was at the end of a long period in office and followed Johnson's ridiculous personality cult and tossing overboard those who didn't swear fealty earnestly enough. Having internal problems in the first years following a landslide victory is rather astonishing.
    It's what happens when you have back benches full of social workers. Running the economy is someone else's responsibility.
    The back benches are not full of social workers. The commonest prior job is possibly lawyer.
    I would have thought a social worker would make a better MP than a lawyer, in fact. Lawyers are paid to argue arcane points of procedure without any thought to the outcome beyond winning the argument. The result matters nothing to them.

    You're talking about litigation.
    The large majority of lawyers seek to avoid that, and outcomes matter to the better ones.

    I've met very good and very bad examples of both lawyers and social workers.
    Lawyers at least tend to have some grasp of legislation.

    And anyway, didn't we find that there's a large number from the charity sector now on the backbenches ?

  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,486
    So the angle from Reeves now is that there was a cut to headroom and she judged she needed more.

    So why not just say that?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 9,383
    "hundreds of thousands of children lifted out of poverty"
    very Brownian spreadsheet thinking and talking
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,841

    ydoethur said:

    It is worth remembering that the last government also had, by historic standards, a very large majority. Larger than Blair or Brown in New Labour's final term, larger than Eden and Macmillan in the 1955-59 Parliament, larger than Heath, larger than Wilson except from 1966-68.

    That didn't stop factions forming. Johnson's messy resignation and Truss' decision to rely on a narrow clique of supporters were largely to blame, but not solely.

    Yes, but that was at the end of a long period in office and followed Johnson's ridiculous personality cult and tossing overboard those who didn't swear fealty earnestly enough. Having internal problems in the first years following a landslide victory is rather astonishing.
    It's what happens when you have back benches full of social workers. Running the economy is someone else's responsibility.
    The back benches are not full of social workers. The commonest prior job is possibly lawyer.
    Spad, political researcher, councillor, charity worker or trade union official for Labour MPs
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,973
    edited 9:27AM
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Cicero said:

    If the coalition was a good government, we can now see it was largely due to the Liberal Democrats, given the fiasco the Tories created on their own.

    I have long pointed out that the Coalition would be looked back on as a golden period of good government. Of course its performance was helped by us still being in the EU...

    It doesn't mean the next coalition will be!

    Indeed it is pretty certain that the next government will be more chaotic and backbiting than this one.
    Though the coalition's legacy looks less and less convincing as the skeletons fall out of the closet. See Triple Lock, Austerity-by-maintainence-holiday, Langley at Health, Gove at Education...
    The way the Coalition tried to balance the books by targeting spending cuts in poorer areas of the north of England also led to Brexit, the biggest policy error of the postwar period which will hobble the UK for generations.
    Talking of which, another perspective on that report that Brexit backers were soo keen to rubbish overnight;

    Yet the pursuit of truth demands we try to overcome such cognitive biases. I was part of the small band of Economists for Brexit. We argued, in good faith, that disentangling ourselves from the EU would unlock long-term economic potential via more policy freedom. Nine years on, we cannot pretend things have gone well so far.

    https://www.thetimes.com/article/d677a43f-837f-4725-a45e-2f90ea15ce86?shareToken=0aed068b29eebf3d5cd07ff8ffb62e2c

    Trouble is that we have the frictional downsides, but the policy freedom remains elusive.

    Now that doesn't have to mean a Breversal, or even a Brapprochment to smooth away the worst of the frictions. We could even decide that Brexit has made us poorer in cash terms, but richer in the ways that really matter.

    But if the last of those is what we want, I don't think we can complain too much about being required to pay for those (luxury) beliefs.
    Yes, I have a modicum of respect for those Brexiteers that claim the economic damage a price well worth paying for sovereignty. I think them wrong and that sovereignity illusory as we are goverened by forces such as the international bond markets over which we have little sovereignty and are bullied over tariffs and the like by capricious tyrants like Trump.

    Higher taxes and run down towns are the price of Brexit.
    That's the post hoc ergo proper hoc fallacy combined with economic illiteracy and historical distortion.

    Run down towns are the product partly of decades of deindustrialisation and regional aid and planning controls, which encouraged people to stay in towns that have no future on welfare, rather than migrating to where the jobs are. Then after the financial crisis it was revealed that that kind of welfare dependency is basically unaffordable, so their model of transfers from successful areas collapsed.

    And higher taxes is a deliberate policy choice from socialist and soft-socialist governments since 2019 to fund our insatiable welfare state, without the political cowardice to accept that they strangle economic growth in so doing. Plenty of countries outside the EU have much lower taxes than those inside it through having more dynamic economies with lower taxes and lighter regulations and smaller welfare states.

    All of those policy choices are internal to us and none have much if anything to do with Brexit.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,843
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    The modern media cycle has changed how Government is reported and how politics, as a result, functions. I suspect there has always been instability in Government, disputes, turf wars, personality clashes etc, etc but we knew a lot less about them than we do now because of the 24/7 news cycle which didn't exist back in the day.

    The over-analysing of every minor infraction, the constant rehashing of the same debate on places like GB News (the rolling news channel is a thing of the last 30 years) accentuates a sense of chaos which I suspect isn't really there.

    To fill up the time means repeating the same meme or theme ad infinitum and this is especially true when you are hostile to the incumbent administration.

    I don't consider this Government "chaotic" in any real sense - chaos is when you are looking at every Commons vote to see if the Government will be defeated - when you have a majority of 70, 80, 144 or even 170, that rarely happens so the sense of crisis has to be manufactured elsewhere.

    That's NOT to say this Government is doing well - it has made a lot of silly mistakes and been far too timid -but the notion with a huff and a puff it will all come tumbling down is absurd - even minority Governments survive longer than you might think.

    It keeps sites like this busy and an opportunity for the anti-Government keyboard warriors to vent periodically or daily - I do think after 14 years in Government, some Conservative-inclined seem to think shouting a lot and complaining about everything will get them back to where they "belong" - it doesn't and it won't.

    The media pie is sliced ever more thinly, and the only way to grab an audience is some sort of sensationalism. Plus the tightness of money means that cheap, reliable ways of filling the pages/airtime are needed. Columnists or people arguing in a studio, rather than the tedious expense of finding out what is actually happening.

    New Newsnight compared to old. Or the awfulness of pretty much all newspapers.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 21,370
    Taz said:

    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is worth remembering that the last government also had, by historic standards, a very large majority. Larger than Blair or Brown in New Labour's final term, larger than Eden and Macmillan in the 1955-59 Parliament, larger than Heath, larger than Wilson except from 1966-68.

    That didn't stop factions forming. Johnson's messy resignation and Truss' decision to rely on a narrow clique of supporters were largely to blame, but not solely.

    Yes, but that was at the end of a long period in office and followed Johnson's ridiculous personality cult and tossing overboard those who didn't swear fealty earnestly enough. Having internal problems in the first years following a landslide victory is rather astonishing.
    It's what happens when you have back benches full of social workers. Running the economy is someone else's responsibility.
    Social workers who don’t like making tough decisions.
    Not convincing. Social workers have been a hate figure of the right for decades. I remember when an older relative claimed that social workers were getting evil children off punishment because someone stole their teddy bear when they were small. And that was in the 1980s.

    Actually thet have a shit job even when it goers more or less OK. And the same rightists who complain about their being employed in the first place and condone their understaffing and overwork are the first to complain about them when things go wrong.

    I don't know any social workers or have any relatives who are. It's just so obvious.
    I’m referring to our members of parliament who, were described as social workers by someone else, lack the ability to take a tough decision. 🤷‍♂️
    I get your point but I think it's unfair on genuine social workers and a better description of the labour back benches would be charitable sector employees or activists. Grown up in permanent opposition to the hated Tories, not realising that to rule is to choose.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,155
    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Cicero said:

    If the coalition was a good government, we can now see it was largely due to the Liberal Democrats, given the fiasco the Tories created on their own.

    I have long pointed out that the Coalition would be looked back on as a golden period of good government. Of course its performance was helped by us still being in the EU...

    It doesn't mean the next coalition will be!

    Indeed it is pretty certain that the next government will be more chaotic and backbiting than this one.
    Though the coalition's legacy looks less and less convincing as the skeletons fall out of the closet. See Triple Lock, Austerity-by-maintainence-holiday, Langley at Health, Gove at Education...
    The way the Coalition tried to balance the books by targeting spending cuts in poorer areas of the north of England also led to Brexit, the biggest policy error of the postwar period which will hobble the UK for generations.
    Talking of which, another perspective on that report that Brexit backers were soo keen to rubbish overnight;

    Yet the pursuit of truth demands we try to overcome such cognitive biases. I was part of the small band of Economists for Brexit. We argued, in good faith, that disentangling ourselves from the EU would unlock long-term economic potential via more policy freedom. Nine years on, we cannot pretend things have gone well so far.

    https://www.thetimes.com/article/d677a43f-837f-4725-a45e-2f90ea15ce86?shareToken=0aed068b29eebf3d5cd07ff8ffb62e2c

    Trouble is that we have the frictional downsides, but the policy freedom remains elusive.

    Now that doesn't have to mean a Breversal, or even a Brapprochment to smooth away the worst of the frictions. We could even decide that Brexit has made us poorer in cash terms, but richer in the ways that really matter.

    But if the last of those is what we want, I don't think we can complain too much about being required to pay for those (luxury) beliefs.
    Yes, I have a modicum of respect for those Brexiteers that claim the economic damage a price well worth paying for sovereignty. I think them wrong and that sovereignity illusory as we are goverened by forces such as the international bond markets over which we have little sovereignty and are bullied over tariffs and the like by capricious tyrants like Trump.

    Higher taxes and run down towns are the price of Brexit.
    Good point as we had neither prior to Brexit !
    And have taxes come down and those towns improved since Brexit?

    Clearly not.

    I don't think rhat the economic damage of Brexit is easily reversed by Rejoining. Much of that damage is done and not repairable.

    Its good though that at least some Brexiteers are acknowledging the reality of the harm that they have done.

    Others seem to want a second swig of Farage's poison.

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 34,007
    A Rory explainer on the Nathan Gill scandal.
    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/OFEOMHvKakI

    80 seconds from TRiP.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,155
    geoffw said:

    "hundreds of thousands of children lifted out of poverty"
    very Brownian spreadsheet thinking and talking

    Though that is money that gets recycled quickly in our economy.

    Much of our economy is driven by consumer spending. If consumers are skint then there is no growth.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,841
    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is worth remembering that the last government also had, by historic standards, a very large majority. Larger than Blair or Brown in New Labour's final term, larger than Eden and Macmillan in the 1955-59 Parliament, larger than Heath, larger than Wilson except from 1966-68.

    That didn't stop factions forming. Johnson's messy resignation and Truss' decision to rely on a narrow clique of supporters were largely to blame, but not solely.

    Yes, but that was at the end of a long period in office and followed Johnson's ridiculous personality cult and tossing overboard those who didn't swear fealty earnestly enough. Having internal problems in the first years following a landslide victory is rather astonishing.
    It's what happens when you have back benches full of social workers. Running the economy is someone else's responsibility.
    Social workers who don’t like making tough decisions.
    There is not a social worker born who lasts more than five minutes who isn't able to take tough decisions. By the time pretty much *anything* gets to social services all that is left is a very difficult choice between at least two suboptimal outcomes. The only exception would be a child living temporarily with a close family member for educational reasons.
    I am talking about the MPs who were described as social workers.

    They don’t like taking tough decisions as we saw with winter fuel and reducing the benefits bill.
    They don’t like taking tough decisions on spending cuts, they like taking ‘tough’ decisions on increasing tax on the rich and wealthy, landlords and private sector high earners
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,678
    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Cicero said:

    If the coalition was a good government, we can now see it was largely due to the Liberal Democrats, given the fiasco the Tories created on their own.

    I have long pointed out that the Coalition would be looked back on as a golden period of good government. Of course its performance was helped by us still being in the EU...

    It doesn't mean the next coalition will be!

    Indeed it is pretty certain that the next government will be more chaotic and backbiting than this one.
    Though the coalition's legacy looks less and less convincing as the skeletons fall out of the closet. See Triple Lock, Austerity-by-maintainence-holiday, Langley at Health, Gove at Education...
    The way the Coalition tried to balance the books by targeting spending cuts in poorer areas of the north of England also led to Brexit, the biggest policy error of the postwar period which will hobble the UK for generations.
    Talking of which, another perspective on that report that Brexit backers were soo keen to rubbish overnight;

    Yet the pursuit of truth demands we try to overcome such cognitive biases. I was part of the small band of Economists for Brexit. We argued, in good faith, that disentangling ourselves from the EU would unlock long-term economic potential via more policy freedom. Nine years on, we cannot pretend things have gone well so far.

    https://www.thetimes.com/article/d677a43f-837f-4725-a45e-2f90ea15ce86?shareToken=0aed068b29eebf3d5cd07ff8ffb62e2c

    Trouble is that we have the frictional downsides, but the policy freedom remains elusive.

    Now that doesn't have to mean a Breversal, or even a Brapprochment to smooth away the worst of the frictions. We could even decide that Brexit has made us poorer in cash terms, but richer in the ways that really matter.

    But if the last of those is what we want, I don't think we can complain too much about being required to pay for those (luxury) beliefs.
    Yes, I have a modicum of respect for those Brexiteers that claim the economic damage a price well worth paying for sovereignty. I think them wrong and that sovereignity illusory as we are goverened by forces such as the international bond markets over which we have little sovereignty and are bullied over tariffs and the like by capricious tyrants like Trump.

    Higher taxes and run down towns are the price of Brexit.
    Good point as we had neither prior to Brexit !
    And have taxes come down and those towns improved since Brexit?

    Clearly not.

    I don't think rhat the economic damage of Brexit is easily reversed by Rejoining. Much of that damage is done and not repairable.

    Its good though that at least some Brexiteers are acknowledging the reality of the harm that they have done.

    Others seem to want a second swig of Farage's poison.

    See Fishings response apropos said taxes not coming down.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,800
    stodge said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is worth remembering that the last government also had, by historic standards, a very large majority. Larger than Blair or Brown in New Labour's final term, larger than Eden and Macmillan in the 1955-59 Parliament, larger than Heath, larger than Wilson except from 1966-68.

    That didn't stop factions forming. Johnson's messy resignation and Truss' decision to rely on a narrow clique of supporters were largely to blame, but not solely.

    Yes, but that was at the end of a long period in office and followed Johnson's ridiculous personality cult and tossing overboard those who didn't swear fealty earnestly enough. Having internal problems in the first years following a landslide victory is rather astonishing.
    It's what happens when you have back benches full of social workers. Running the economy is someone else's responsibility.
    Social workers who don’t like making tough decisions.
    There is not a social worker born who lasts more than five minutes who isn't able to take tough decisions. By the time pretty much *anything* gets to social services all that is left is a very difficult choice between at least two suboptimal outcomes. The only exception would be a child living temporarily with a close family member for educational reasons.
    I am talking about the MPs who were described as social workers.

    They don’t like taking tough decisions as we saw with winter fuel and reducing the benefits bill.
    In my time in local Government, I met and dealt with plenty of social workers and I had a friend who was a Housing Officer in a London Borough. Some of the stories they told about the people they encountered - well, let's just say we must never forget how fortunate many of us are and where the consequences of familial breakdown, bereavement, loss of a business or addiction can take you.

    Sympathy only gets you so far and indeed my Housing Officer was as hard as nails - she had seen every trick and heard every story and this notion social workers are all "woke" is just nonsense. They need to be able to process what they see and hear in ways most of us, in our employment, either never have to or can do so with a coffee or tea with a colleague.

    The fact most of them are ridiculously overworked with caseloads they cannot manage or support is almost incidental - it appalls me sometimes how we treat our fellow human beings yet we worry about how much tax we pay, whether our football team does well or a flag - none of that nonsense is important.
    And where the consequences take one's children, even more importantly. Yet just see the chorus on here about child benefit and the need to sternly confine it to two children. As if any of those events could be foretold when one decides to have a third.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,960
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Cicero said:

    If the coalition was a good government, we can now see it was largely due to the Liberal Democrats, given the fiasco the Tories created on their own.

    I have long pointed out that the Coalition would be looked back on as a golden period of good government. Of course its performance was helped by us still being in the EU...

    It doesn't mean the next coalition will be!

    Indeed it is pretty certain that the next government will be more chaotic and backbiting than this one.
    Though the coalition's legacy looks less and less convincing as the skeletons fall out of the closet. See Triple Lock, Austerity-by-maintainence-holiday, Langley at Health, Gove at Education...
    The triple lock was fine for a period of catch up. It is carrying on indefinitely that is the problem. Similarly austerity.

    And yes, the conservative ministers were rarely as good as the LD ones (Cable being a rare exception of being as bad as the Tory ministers).

    Overall though the Coalition was far more competent and coherent than any government since. At least there was a plan...

    It's a bit hard to say how Osborne's "long term economic plan" might have have progressed, since it was derailed by the Brexit vote.

    And while it was far from being a perfect government, it was at the very least semi-coherent, something you can say of none of its successors.
    Possibly the budget was the last opportunity they would have to make clear their plan, and start to command the narrative. I think the narrative may well turn to this being a government who index link non workers (pensioners like me and benefits volk) by impoverishing workers; then wonder why people retire early, go part time, and decide work is not for them as it's not the rational option.
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,678
    Foxy said:

    geoffw said:

    "hundreds of thousands of children lifted out of poverty"
    very Brownian spreadsheet thinking and talking

    Though that is money that gets recycled quickly in our economy.

    Much of our economy is driven by consumer spending. If consumers are skint then there is no growth.
    There’s a large amount of money tied up in savings. Try freeing that up.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 9,383
    Foxy said:

    geoffw said:

    "hundreds of thousands of children lifted out of poverty"
    very Brownian spreadsheet thinking and talking

    Though that is money that gets recycled quickly in our economy.

    Much of our economy is driven by consumer spending. If consumers are skint then there is no growth.
    You think growth has something to do with consumer spending? As opposed to saving? No, growth happens on the supply side of the economy, mostly innovation and technological change. It is long-term and not to be confused with short term conjunctural movements.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,935
    An interesting view, which would greatly increase the estimate of how many MPs are social workers.

    Politics as Social Work: A Qualitative Study of Emplaced Empathy and Risk Work by British Members of Parliament
    https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7665367/
    The constituency work of British Members of Parliament (MPs) has long been referred to in political circles as a form of social work. This article reports on a qualitative study using semi-structured interviews with thirteen MPs. The aim of the research was to find out what characterises their constituency work to understand why it apparently bears comparison with social work...
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,886

    ydoethur said:

    It is worth remembering that the last government also had, by historic standards, a very large majority. Larger than Blair or Brown in New Labour's final term, larger than Eden and Macmillan in the 1955-59 Parliament, larger than Heath, larger than Wilson except from 1966-68.

    That didn't stop factions forming. Johnson's messy resignation and Truss' decision to rely on a narrow clique of supporters were largely to blame, but not solely.

    Yes, but that was at the end of a long period in office and followed Johnson's ridiculous personality cult and tossing overboard those who didn't swear fealty earnestly enough. Having internal problems in the first years following a landslide victory is rather astonishing.
    It's what happens when you have back benches full of social workers. Running the economy is someone else's responsibility.
    The back benches are not full of social workers. The commonest prior job is possibly lawyer.
    I don't mean MPs who were social workers before entering parliament. (Although quite a few were.)

    I mean MPs who consider their role to be that of a social worker to their constituents.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,886
    HYUFD said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is worth remembering that the last government also had, by historic standards, a very large majority. Larger than Blair or Brown in New Labour's final term, larger than Eden and Macmillan in the 1955-59 Parliament, larger than Heath, larger than Wilson except from 1966-68.

    That didn't stop factions forming. Johnson's messy resignation and Truss' decision to rely on a narrow clique of supporters were largely to blame, but not solely.

    Yes, but that was at the end of a long period in office and followed Johnson's ridiculous personality cult and tossing overboard those who didn't swear fealty earnestly enough. Having internal problems in the first years following a landslide victory is rather astonishing.
    It's what happens when you have back benches full of social workers. Running the economy is someone else's responsibility.
    Social workers who don’t like making tough decisions.
    There is not a social worker born who lasts more than five minutes who isn't able to take tough decisions. By the time pretty much *anything* gets to social services all that is left is a very difficult choice between at least two suboptimal outcomes. The only exception would be a child living temporarily with a close family member for educational reasons.
    I am talking about the MPs who were described as social workers.

    They don’t like taking tough decisions as we saw with winter fuel and reducing the benefits bill.
    They don’t like taking tough decisions on spending cuts, they like taking ‘tough’ decisions on increasing tax on the rich and wealthy, landlords and private sector high earners
    When politicians talk about tough decisions, they usually mean decisions that are easy to take but have tough consequences for those on the receiving end.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,606
    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Cicero said:

    If the coalition was a good government, we can now see it was largely due to the Liberal Democrats, given the fiasco the Tories created on their own.

    I have long pointed out that the Coalition would be looked back on as a golden period of good government. Of course its performance was helped by us still being in the EU...

    It doesn't mean the next coalition will be!

    Indeed it is pretty certain that the next government will be more chaotic and backbiting than this one.
    Though the coalition's legacy looks less and less convincing as the skeletons fall out of the closet. See Triple Lock, Austerity-by-maintainence-holiday, Langley at Health, Gove at Education...
    The way the Coalition tried to balance the books by targeting spending cuts in poorer areas of the north of England also led to Brexit, the biggest policy error of the postwar period which will hobble the UK for generations.
    Talking of which, another perspective on that report that Brexit backers were soo keen to rubbish overnight;

    Yet the pursuit of truth demands we try to overcome such cognitive biases. I was part of the small band of Economists for Brexit. We argued, in good faith, that disentangling ourselves from the EU would unlock long-term economic potential via more policy freedom. Nine years on, we cannot pretend things have gone well so far.

    https://www.thetimes.com/article/d677a43f-837f-4725-a45e-2f90ea15ce86?shareToken=0aed068b29eebf3d5cd07ff8ffb62e2c

    Trouble is that we have the frictional downsides, but the policy freedom remains elusive.

    Now that doesn't have to mean a Breversal, or even a Brapprochment to smooth away the worst of the frictions. We could even decide that Brexit has made us poorer in cash terms, but richer in the ways that really matter.

    But if the last of those is what we want, I don't think we can complain too much about being required to pay for those (luxury) beliefs.
    Yes, I have a modicum of respect for those Brexiteers that claim the economic damage a price well worth paying for sovereignty. I think them wrong and that sovereignity illusory as we are goverened by forces such as the international bond markets over which we have little sovereignty and are bullied over tariffs and the like by capricious tyrants like Trump.

    Higher taxes and run down towns are the price of Brexit.
    Good point as we had neither prior to Brexit !
    And have taxes come down and those towns improved since Brexit?

    Clearly not.

    I don't think rhat the economic damage of Brexit is easily reversed by Rejoining. Much of that damage is done and not repairable.

    Its good though that at least some Brexiteers are acknowledging the reality of the harm that they have done.

    Others seem to want a second swig of Farage's poison.

    You seem to be under the self-deception that Brexit is the only thing that has happened in the past five years.

    Or that some longer term processes - for example the effect of the internet on town centres - have not continued.

    Presumably you also think that Brexit is the reason more positive things have happened or continued to happen.

    For example there has been a big increase in health spending, employment and pay - are they the consequence of Brexit ?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,886
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is worth remembering that the last government also had, by historic standards, a very large majority. Larger than Blair or Brown in New Labour's final term, larger than Eden and Macmillan in the 1955-59 Parliament, larger than Heath, larger than Wilson except from 1966-68.

    That didn't stop factions forming. Johnson's messy resignation and Truss' decision to rely on a narrow clique of supporters were largely to blame, but not solely.

    Yes, but that was at the end of a long period in office and followed Johnson's ridiculous personality cult and tossing overboard those who didn't swear fealty earnestly enough. Having internal problems in the first years following a landslide victory is rather astonishing.
    It's what happens when you have back benches full of social workers. Running the economy is someone else's responsibility.
    The back benches are not full of social workers. The commonest prior job is possibly lawyer.
    Spad, political researcher, councillor, charity worker or trade union official for Labour MPs
    Sometimes I think I'm the only member of the Labour Party with a "proper job".
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,407

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Cicero said:

    If the coalition was a good government, we can now see it was largely due to the Liberal Democrats, given the fiasco the Tories created on their own.

    I have long pointed out that the Coalition would be looked back on as a golden period of good government. Of course its performance was helped by us still being in the EU...

    It doesn't mean the next coalition will be!

    Indeed it is pretty certain that the next government will be more chaotic and backbiting than this one.
    Though the coalition's legacy looks less and less convincing as the skeletons fall out of the closet. See Triple Lock, Austerity-by-maintainence-holiday, Langley at Health, Gove at Education...
    The way the Coalition tried to balance the books by targeting spending cuts in poorer areas of the north of England also led to Brexit, the biggest policy error of the postwar period which will hobble the UK for generations.
    Talking of which, another perspective on that report that Brexit backers were soo keen to rubbish overnight;

    Yet the pursuit of truth demands we try to overcome such cognitive biases. I was part of the small band of Economists for Brexit. We argued, in good faith, that disentangling ourselves from the EU would unlock long-term economic potential via more policy freedom. Nine years on, we cannot pretend things have gone well so far.

    https://www.thetimes.com/article/d677a43f-837f-4725-a45e-2f90ea15ce86?shareToken=0aed068b29eebf3d5cd07ff8ffb62e2c

    Trouble is that we have the frictional downsides, but the policy freedom remains elusive.

    Now that doesn't have to mean a Breversal, or even a Brapprochment to smooth away the worst of the frictions. We could even decide that Brexit has made us poorer in cash terms, but richer in the ways that really matter.

    But if the last of those is what we want, I don't think we can complain too much about being required to pay for those (luxury) beliefs.
    Yes, I have a modicum of respect for those Brexiteers that claim the economic damage a price well worth paying for sovereignty. I think them wrong and that sovereignity illusory as we are goverened by forces such as the international bond markets over which we have little sovereignty and are bullied over tariffs and the like by capricious tyrants like Trump.

    Higher taxes and run down towns are the price of Brexit.
    Good point as we had neither prior to Brexit !
    And have taxes come down and those towns improved since Brexit?

    Clearly not.

    I don't think rhat the economic damage of Brexit is easily reversed by Rejoining. Much of that damage is done and not repairable.

    Its good though that at least some Brexiteers are acknowledging the reality of the harm that they have done.

    Others seem to want a second swig of Farage's poison.

    You seem to be under the self-deception that Brexit is the only thing that has happened in the past five years.

    Or that some longer term processes - for example the effect of the internet on town centres - have not continued.

    Presumably you also think that Brexit is the reason more positive things have happened or continued to happen.

    For example there has been a big increase in health spending, employment and pay - are they the consequence of Brexit ?
    Covid, the War in Ukraine were matters that were largely outside our control. Brexit was something we chose to do, and it has turned out to be a total turd. Those who advocated it need to take responsibility for the damage they have caused.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,465

    It's no surprise that most of the well-heeled citizens of PB regard the years of coalition government as a golden age. However, not all share that view. Osborne's exhortation of 'we're all in this together' in regard to austerity was simply not true. Public sector workers, those on benefits and others bore the brunt of repeated freezes or below-inflation rises in their income, not the middle classes or the rich. And it stored up problems for the future, with consequent demands for pay restoration by those negatively affected. Although, to be fair, the rises in the income tax allowance did help a bit.

    I think TSE's point is about the stability. An improbablr coalition managed to make tough decisions and present an outwardly unified appearance, whether you agreed with those decisions or not. And a government with a majority of 6 million cannot.
    I'm a public sector worker, btw, and I'd still say the coalition was a golden period. Pay increases in relation to inflation were much better then than now. And George Osborne actually believed in infrastructure spending in the north.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,960
    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    geoffw said:

    "hundreds of thousands of children lifted out of poverty"
    very Brownian spreadsheet thinking and talking

    Though that is money that gets recycled quickly in our economy.

    Much of our economy is driven by consumer spending. If consumers are skint then there is no growth.
    There’s a large amount of money tied up in savings. Try freeing that up.
    Saving money does free it up, unless saved in an old sock in notes and coins. Few would be able to buy a house but for the savings of others. All investment - new buildings, machinery, fleets of vehicles - comes from money not used for some other purpose. The general term for such money is 'savings'.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,886
    Cookie said:

    It's no surprise that most of the well-heeled citizens of PB regard the years of coalition government as a golden age. However, not all share that view. Osborne's exhortation of 'we're all in this together' in regard to austerity was simply not true. Public sector workers, those on benefits and others bore the brunt of repeated freezes or below-inflation rises in their income, not the middle classes or the rich. And it stored up problems for the future, with consequent demands for pay restoration by those negatively affected. Although, to be fair, the rises in the income tax allowance did help a bit.

    I think TSE's point is about the stability. An improbablr coalition managed to make tough decisions and present an outwardly unified appearance, whether you agreed with those decisions or not. And a government with a majority of 6 million cannot.
    I'm a public sector worker, btw, and I'd still say the coalition was a golden period. Pay increases in relation to inflation were much better then than now. And George Osborne actually believed in infrastructure spending in the north.
    Osborne might have believed in it, but he didn't actually implement it.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,960
    theProle said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is worth remembering that the last government also had, by historic standards, a very large majority. Larger than Blair or Brown in New Labour's final term, larger than Eden and Macmillan in the 1955-59 Parliament, larger than Heath, larger than Wilson except from 1966-68.

    That didn't stop factions forming. Johnson's messy resignation and Truss' decision to rely on a narrow clique of supporters were largely to blame, but not solely.

    Yes, but that was at the end of a long period in office and followed Johnson's ridiculous personality cult and tossing overboard those who didn't swear fealty earnestly enough. Having internal problems in the first years following a landslide victory is rather astonishing.
    It's what happens when you have back benches full of social workers. Running the economy is someone else's responsibility.
    Social workers who don’t like making tough decisions.
    There is not a social worker born who lasts more than five minutes who isn't able to take tough decisions. By the time pretty much *anything* gets to social services all that is left is a very difficult choice between at least two suboptimal outcomes. The only exception would be a child living temporarily with a close family member for educational reasons.
    Isn't this why they are on Labour's back benches, rather than still social workers? The ones who can hack it are still doing it, the ones who can't have found union activity, follow by political party greasy pole climbing are easier.

    On the general ignorance of Labour MPs, I currently have one. He posted on Facebook this week:

    𝐁𝐮𝐝𝐠𝐞𝐭 𝐑𝐨𝐮𝐧𝐝 𝐔𝐩 🔄

    Your priorities are our priorities:

    ✅ Cutting the cost of living
    ✅ Cutting NHS waiting lists
    ✅ Cutting the national debt


    The first one is debatable - I mean their budget measures will fuel inflation, make working people pay more tax, and increase the cost of fuel and rents, but I suppose at least he can claim that some of the measures (like moving some of the green levies off electric bills) are attempting to cut the cost of living.

    I'd give him the 2nd - they do seem to be trying quite hard to do this (although they are very high mainly because we had a National Covid Service for 2 years, so you'd bally well hope waiting lists started to come down once that had finished).

    But to claim the 3rd implies that he has no idea about the difference between debt and deficit, nor has he noticed that Reeves has increased the deficit at every budget, but is pretending that is OK because it's all borrowing for "investment". To cut the national debt would require her to run a surplus, her plans at the moment are at best to only be increasing the debt at the same pace as GDP growth in 5 years time. To claim they are cutting the debt makes him terminally stupid, a liar, or both.

    Mind you he is a bloke who put a leaflet through my door a month or so ago, which trumpeted proudly "reinstating winter fuel payments for thousands of pensioners" as one of the six notable achievements of this government, which I thought was an interesting choice of boast.

    The third is what Shakespeare calls 'The lie direct'. The first is extremely close to it.

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,606

    It's no surprise that most of the well-heeled citizens of PB regard the years of coalition government as a golden age. However, not all share that view. Osborne's exhortation of 'we're all in this together' in regard to austerity was simply not true. Public sector workers, those on benefits and others bore the brunt of repeated freezes or below-inflation rises in their income, not the middle classes or the rich. And it stored up problems for the future, with consequent demands for pay restoration by those negatively affected. Although, to be fair, the rises in the income tax allowance did help a bit.

    Some things tend to go in long term trends, others in shorter term cycles.

    Public sector workers did have a hard time during the coalition government but before that they were protected, sometimes benefiting from Brown's profligacy, during the recession of 2008-9. Or the 'mancession' as some guardianistas smugly termed it.

    And now the wheel has turned again with tax rises focussed on the private sector - there's very few public sector workers worrying about the effects of increasing employers national insurance or restricting salary sacrifice pensions.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,239

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Cicero said:

    If the coalition was a good government, we can now see it was largely due to the Liberal Democrats, given the fiasco the Tories created on their own.

    I have long pointed out that the Coalition would be looked back on as a golden period of good government. Of course its performance was helped by us still being in the EU...

    It doesn't mean the next coalition will be!

    Indeed it is pretty certain that the next government will be more chaotic and backbiting than this one.
    Though the coalition's legacy looks less and less convincing as the skeletons fall out of the closet. See Triple Lock, Austerity-by-maintainence-holiday, Langley at Health, Gove at Education...
    The way the Coalition tried to balance the books by targeting spending cuts in poorer areas of the north of England also led to Brexit, the biggest policy error of the postwar period which will hobble the UK for generations.
    Talking of which, another perspective on that report that Brexit backers were soo keen to rubbish overnight;

    Yet the pursuit of truth demands we try to overcome such cognitive biases. I was part of the small band of Economists for Brexit. We argued, in good faith, that disentangling ourselves from the EU would unlock long-term economic potential via more policy freedom. Nine years on, we cannot pretend things have gone well so far.

    https://www.thetimes.com/article/d677a43f-837f-4725-a45e-2f90ea15ce86?shareToken=0aed068b29eebf3d5cd07ff8ffb62e2c

    Trouble is that we have the frictional downsides, but the policy freedom remains elusive.

    Now that doesn't have to mean a Breversal, or even a Brapprochment to smooth away the worst of the frictions. We could even decide that Brexit has made us poorer in cash terms, but richer in the ways that really matter.

    But if the last of those is what we want, I don't think we can complain too much about being required to pay for those (luxury) beliefs.
    Yes, I have a modicum of respect for those Brexiteers that claim the economic damage a price well worth paying for sovereignty. I think them wrong and that sovereignity illusory as we are goverened by forces such as the international bond markets over which we have little sovereignty and are bullied over tariffs and the like by capricious tyrants like Trump.

    Higher taxes and run down towns are the price of Brexit.
    Good point as we had neither prior to Brexit !
    And have taxes come down and those towns improved since Brexit?

    Clearly not.

    I don't think rhat the economic damage of Brexit is easily reversed by Rejoining. Much of that damage is done and not repairable.

    Its good though that at least some Brexiteers are acknowledging the reality of the harm that they have done.

    Others seem to want a second swig of Farage's poison.

    You seem to be under the self-deception that Brexit is the only thing that has happened in the past five years.

    Or that some longer term processes - for example the effect of the internet on town centres - have not continued.

    Presumably you also think that Brexit is the reason more positive things have happened or continued to happen.

    For example there has been a big increase in health spending, employment and pay - are they the consequence of Brexit ?
    Covid, the War in Ukraine were matters that were largely outside our control. Brexit was something we chose to do, and it has turned out to be a total turd. Those who advocated it need to take responsibility for the damage they have caused.
    'Taking responsibility' for the turd seems to entail support for the politician who worked tirelessly for decades to lay it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,935
    On the social worker question, I can't find any quantitative figures on MPs from the profession, but I get the impression, from reading a dozen or so accounts about the new intake, that there can't be very many of them.

    There is a German study which looked at the question.

    Social workers as politicians. A quantitative study on social workers holding elected office in Germany

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13691457.2024.2316788#abstract
    There is a reciprocal relationship between social work and (social) policy: (i) social workers act on the basis of social policy guidelines, and (ii) they should contribute to changing these frameworks in the interest of their profession and of service users. Previous studies have outlined different routes for social workers to influence policy: One of these is referred to as ‘holding elected office’. This paper provides a descriptive analysis of social workers with political mandates in Germany. My first step is to compile a comprehensive dataset of current members of parliament to identify social workers. I then conduct an online survey among this group to learn more about their political socialisation processes, their political career paths, and their current political work. My results show that social workers accept mandates at all political levels, with their share being lowest at the national level. *The decision of social workers to become directly involved in politics is closely linked to the experiences that they have gained in their professional practice. The process of politicisation tends to run parallel to their professional careers...

    *She found 11 MPs who were from the profession in the Federal Parliament.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,800
    edited 10:06AM
    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    geoffw said:

    "hundreds of thousands of children lifted out of poverty"
    very Brownian spreadsheet thinking and talking

    Though that is money that gets recycled quickly in our economy.

    Much of our economy is driven by consumer spending. If consumers are skint then there is no growth.
    There’s a large amount of money tied up in savings. Try freeing that up.
    Saving money does free it up, unless saved in an old sock in notes and coins. Few would be able to buy a house but for the savings of others. All investment - new buildings, machinery, fleets of vehicles - comes from money not used for some other purpose. The general term for such money is 'savings'.
    And of course, it's the customers' buying extra corn flakes thanks to child benefit that enables Tesco shareholders to obtain a biot more dividend.

    There does seem to be a view on PB that it's the saver's duty to allow others to put their money at risk. Yet a lot of people don't have enough in savings to put their money at any risk at all (or at least notdhing worse than the least risk, which is the inflation rate minus the interest paid).

    This reminds me of the old land magnates and high farmers of the 18th century who used to moan about the conservatism of their small tenants. They forgot that for them trying a field of something new fangled like mangelwurzels or Chinese pigs was no skin off their nose if it didn't come off. Whereas it meant starvation or the workhouse for the small tenants.

  • LDLFLDLF Posts: 172
    edited 10:11AM
    I think a lot of this is down to lack both of planning and of preparing the ground with the electorate.

    In the 2010 general election the Conservatives, Liberal Democrats and even Labour warned that there was going to be austerity, in the form of tax rises and spending cuts. In the 2024 general election this honesty was not forthcoming: the Conservatives had just implemented an unaffordable tax cut, the Liberal Democrats' spending pledges were greater even than the Greens', and Labour seemed to think that the problem could be solved by saying 'growth' three times and clicking their heels together.

    Labour entered government having told us that we wouldn't all have to pay; the only tax rises would be on those dastardly non-doms and villainous private schools (Labour bogeymen of long standing). They even called Sunak a horrible liar for saying otherwise. As usual, it is in their moment of triumph that politicians paint themselves into a corner.

    (Listening to recent 'New Statesman' podcasts it is worth noting that many journalists and commentators, including those friendly to Labour, wondered at the time what the plan was, and were told in very vague terms that attracting inward investment was a big part of it. Andrew Marr's rather grandiose 'Question Time' prediction of a wall of money sweeping into the safe haven of the UK makes a little more sense in that context.)

    In short, they had a plan for winning the election, but not for governing. The next government - and despite it all I think it is likely to be Labour in some form or another - needs to learn from this mistake.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,935
    Quite a number of new MPs from the civil service, and from the third sector.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,606

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Cicero said:

    If the coalition was a good government, we can now see it was largely due to the Liberal Democrats, given the fiasco the Tories created on their own.

    I have long pointed out that the Coalition would be looked back on as a golden period of good government. Of course its performance was helped by us still being in the EU...

    It doesn't mean the next coalition will be!

    Indeed it is pretty certain that the next government will be more chaotic and backbiting than this one.
    Though the coalition's legacy looks less and less convincing as the skeletons fall out of the closet. See Triple Lock, Austerity-by-maintainence-holiday, Langley at Health, Gove at Education...
    The way the Coalition tried to balance the books by targeting spending cuts in poorer areas of the north of England also led to Brexit, the biggest policy error of the postwar period which will hobble the UK for generations.
    Talking of which, another perspective on that report that Brexit backers were soo keen to rubbish overnight;

    Yet the pursuit of truth demands we try to overcome such cognitive biases. I was part of the small band of Economists for Brexit. We argued, in good faith, that disentangling ourselves from the EU would unlock long-term economic potential via more policy freedom. Nine years on, we cannot pretend things have gone well so far.

    https://www.thetimes.com/article/d677a43f-837f-4725-a45e-2f90ea15ce86?shareToken=0aed068b29eebf3d5cd07ff8ffb62e2c

    Trouble is that we have the frictional downsides, but the policy freedom remains elusive.

    Now that doesn't have to mean a Breversal, or even a Brapprochment to smooth away the worst of the frictions. We could even decide that Brexit has made us poorer in cash terms, but richer in the ways that really matter.

    But if the last of those is what we want, I don't think we can complain too much about being required to pay for those (luxury) beliefs.
    Yes, I have a modicum of respect for those Brexiteers that claim the economic damage a price well worth paying for sovereignty. I think them wrong and that sovereignity illusory as we are goverened by forces such as the international bond markets over which we have little sovereignty and are bullied over tariffs and the like by capricious tyrants like Trump.

    Higher taxes and run down towns are the price of Brexit.
    Good point as we had neither prior to Brexit !
    And have taxes come down and those towns improved since Brexit?

    Clearly not.

    I don't think rhat the economic damage of Brexit is easily reversed by Rejoining. Much of that damage is done and not repairable.

    Its good though that at least some Brexiteers are acknowledging the reality of the harm that they have done.

    Others seem to want a second swig of Farage's poison.

    You seem to be under the self-deception that Brexit is the only thing that has happened in the past five years.

    Or that some longer term processes - for example the effect of the internet on town centres - have not continued.

    Presumably you also think that Brexit is the reason more positive things have happened or continued to happen.

    For example there has been a big increase in health spending, employment and pay - are they the consequence of Brexit ?
    Covid, the War in Ukraine were matters that were largely outside our control. Brexit was something we chose to do, and it has turned out to be a total turd. Those who advocated it need to take responsibility for the damage they have caused.
    So how do you differentiate between the effects of Covid, Ukraine, Brexit or a myriad of other factors ?

    And how, if you can do so, has Brexit been a 'total turd' ?

    Now one thing we can do is compare what has happened to what the Remain side said would happen after a Leave vote.

    Very conveniently the Treasury gave its predictions:

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a80772140f0b62305b8b510/hm_treasury_analysis_the_immediate_economic_impact_of_leaving_the_eu_web.pdf

    Needless to say, none of it happened.

    Isn't it time you accepted that the Remain side pedalled a load of crap and stopped trying to claim things are so much worse than they are in an attempt to justify themselves.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,935
    LDLF said:

    I think a lot of this is down to lack both of planning and of preparing the ground with the electorate.

    In the 2010 general election the Conservatives, Liberal Democrats and even Labour warned that there was going to be austerity, in the form of tax rises and spending cuts. In the 2024 general election this honesty was not forthcoming: the Conservatives had just implemented an unaffordable tax cut, the Liberal Democrats' spending pledges were greater even than the Greens', and Labour seemed to think that the problem could be solved by saying 'growth' three times and clicking their heels together.

    Labour entered government having told us that we wouldn't all have to pay; the only tax rises would be on those dastardly non-doms and villainous private schools. They even called Sunak a horrible liar for saying otherwise. As usual, it is in their moment of triumph that politicians paint themselves into a corner.

    (Listening to recent 'New Statesman' podcasts it is worth noting that many journalists and commentators, including those friendly to Labour, wondered at the time what the plan was, and were told in very vague terms that attracting inward investment was a big part of it. Andrew Marr's rather grandiose 'Question Time' prediction of a wall of money sweeping into the safe haven of the UK makes a little more sense in that context.)..

    It also makes clear that he's more a credulous reporter of others' opinions than a thinking journalist.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,454
    LDLF said:

    I think a lot of this is down to lack both of planning and of preparing the ground with the electorate.

    In the 2010 general election the Conservatives, Liberal Democrats and even Labour warned that there was going to be austerity, in the form of tax rises and spending cuts. In the 2024 general election this honesty was not forthcoming: the Conservatives had just implemented an unaffordable tax cut, the Liberal Democrats' spending pledges were greater even than the Greens', and Labour seemed to think that the problem could be solved by saying 'growth' three times and clicking their heels together.

    Labour entered government having told us that we wouldn't all have to pay; the only tax rises would be on those dastardly non-doms and villainous private schools (Labour bogeymen of long standing). They even called Sunak a horrible liar for saying otherwise. As usual, it is in their moment of triumph that politicians paint themselves into a corner.

    (Listening to recent 'New Statesman' podcasts it is worth noting that many journalists and commentators, including those friendly to Labour, wondered at the time what the plan was, and were told in very vague terms that attracting inward investment was a big part of it. Andrew Marr's rather grandiose 'Question Time' prediction of a wall of money sweeping into the safe haven of the UK makes a little more sense in that context.)

    In short, they had a plan for winning the election, but not for governing. The next government - and despite it all I think it is likely to be Labour in some form or another - needs to learn from this mistake.

    Labour's re-election pitch is relatively obvious - point to a bit of progress both with the economy and public services, and then argue "let's finish the job" and "don't let the Tories f*** everything up again".

    Aside from having to deliver the progress, it's a decent plan.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,800
    edited 10:20AM

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is worth remembering that the last government also had, by historic standards, a very large majority. Larger than Blair or Brown in New Labour's final term, larger than Eden and Macmillan in the 1955-59 Parliament, larger than Heath, larger than Wilson except from 1966-68.

    That didn't stop factions forming. Johnson's messy resignation and Truss' decision to rely on a narrow clique of supporters were largely to blame, but not solely.

    Yes, but that was at the end of a long period in office and followed Johnson's ridiculous personality cult and tossing overboard those who didn't swear fealty earnestly enough. Having internal problems in the first years following a landslide victory is rather astonishing.
    It's what happens when you have back benches full of social workers. Running the economy is someone else's responsibility.
    The back benches are not full of social workers. The commonest prior job is possibly lawyer.
    Spad, political researcher, councillor, charity worker or trade union official for Labour MPs
    Looking at some Labour MPs:

    Natasha Irons, worked at Channel 4

    Sally Jameson, prison officer

    Dan Jarvis, Army

    Terry Jermy, publisher

    Diana Johnson, barrister

    Darren Jones, solicitor

    And so on. There’s a variety there beyond the stereotypes.
    MSPs too. Taking more or less random in largely alphavbetical order ...

    Anas Sarwar, dentist and owner of share in family cash and carry business (this put in a trust for his children when he became leader IIRC)

    Jackie Baillie, local gmt business devt

    Sarah Boyack, town planner and university lecturer

    Rhoda Grant, trade union and local gmt

    Daniel Johnson, MD of chain of stationery(IIRC) shops

    Pauline McNeill, graphic illustrator and TU

    Carol Mochan, running family business

    Paul O'Kane, volunteer groups/agencies etc (?)

    Alex Rowley. TU education official and agent for Mr Brown

    Paul Sweeney, BAE shipbuilding and Scottish Enterprise (economic devt agency)

    That's enough, now we have an actual shipbuilder. No social workers yet ... Edit: NB I'm not sure if all the TU positions were paid.

    Edit: E. Joyce deleted, wrong parliament!
  • TimSTimS Posts: 16,469
    edited 10:23AM
    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    geoffw said:

    "hundreds of thousands of children lifted out of poverty"
    very Brownian spreadsheet thinking and talking

    Though that is money that gets recycled quickly in our economy.

    Much of our economy is driven by consumer spending. If consumers are skint then there is no growth.
    There’s a large amount of money tied up in savings. Try freeing that up.
    Saving money does free it up, unless saved in an old sock in notes and coins. Few would be able to buy a house but for the savings of others. All investment - new buildings, machinery, fleets of vehicles - comes from money not used for some other purpose. The general term for such money is 'savings'.
    Britain's savings rate is the highest it’s been for decades. Household and corporate debt are historically very low. And our economy is sclerotic. The two are not unconnected.

    Yes, we are saving too much and spending too little.

    We have real life stats to show the power of spending on economic growth. Not only UK historical GDP but also country comparisons: the USA at one extreme and Japan at the other.

    We do need investment. Massively more of it. Not surplus rainy day saving in low yielding assets. But investment is spending. Every pound you spend on that new extension or your child’s university fees is investment, as is every pound your employer spends on training or automation.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,606
    algarkirk said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    geoffw said:

    "hundreds of thousands of children lifted out of poverty"
    very Brownian spreadsheet thinking and talking

    Though that is money that gets recycled quickly in our economy.

    Much of our economy is driven by consumer spending. If consumers are skint then there is no growth.
    There’s a large amount of money tied up in savings. Try freeing that up.
    Saving money does free it up, unless saved in an old sock in notes and coins. Few would be able to buy a house but for the savings of others. All investment - new buildings, machinery, fleets of vehicles - comes from money not used for some other purpose. The general term for such money is 'savings'.
    Saving is future spending.

    It is also allows for more effective and cheaper spending by giving the purchaser more options.

    And it provides a financial safety net so allowing more confidence in normal activities.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,749
    On topic, it's a salutary lesson that the Ming Vase strategy is a derisory one.

    The Labour vote share collapsed even before the election, denying them a real mandate, and they've been able to command virtually no loyalty from their MPs, members or voters whilst in office as a consequence.

    Keir Starmer is a case study in the almost total absence of political leadership.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,841
    edited 10:25AM

    It's no surprise that most of the well-heeled citizens of PB regard the years of coalition government as a golden age. However, not all share that view. Osborne's exhortation of 'we're all in this together' in regard to austerity was simply not true. Public sector workers, those on benefits and others bore the brunt of repeated freezes or below-inflation rises in their income, not the middle classes or the rich. And it stored up problems for the future, with consequent demands for pay restoration by those negatively affected. Although, to be fair, the rises in the income tax allowance did help a bit.

    Yet now the Starmer government is increasing tax on those in expensive homes, on landlords, on shareholders, on well off pensioners and savers, on business owners, on farmers and on higher earners on the border of the higher and additional rate income tax thresholds. Mainly to fund increased public spending and especially increased welfare.

    Basically Labour in government are now doing big state budgets in revenge for the austerity of the Conservative and LD government of 2010 to 2015
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,291
    HYUFD said:

    It's no surprise that most of the well-heeled citizens of PB regard the years of coalition government as a golden age. However, not all share that view. Osborne's exhortation of 'we're all in this together' in regard to austerity was simply not true. Public sector workers, those on benefits and others bore the brunt of repeated freezes or below-inflation rises in their income, not the middle classes or the rich. And it stored up problems for the future, with consequent demands for pay restoration by those negatively affected. Although, to be fair, the rises in the income tax allowance did help a bit.

    Yet now the Starmer government is increasing tax on those in expensive homes, on landlords, on shareholders, on well off pensioners and savers, on business owners, on farmers and on higher earners on the border of the higher and additional rate income tax thresholds. Mainly to fund increased public spending and especially increased welfare.

    Basically Labour in government are now doing big state budgets in revenge for the austerity of the Conservative and LD government of 2010 to 2015
    It’s not in revenge. It’s because they believe in more redistribution. That’s how politics works. Different parties offer different options and people vote for who they want,
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,749
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Cicero said:

    If the coalition was a good government, we can now see it was largely due to the Liberal Democrats, given the fiasco the Tories created on their own.

    I have long pointed out that the Coalition would be looked back on as a golden period of good government. Of course its performance was helped by us still being in the EU...

    It doesn't mean the next coalition will be!

    Indeed it is pretty certain that the next government will be more chaotic and backbiting than this one.
    Though the coalition's legacy looks less and less convincing as the skeletons fall out of the closet. See Triple Lock, Austerity-by-maintainence-holiday, Langley at Health, Gove at Education...
    The way the Coalition tried to balance the books by targeting spending cuts in poorer areas of the north of England also led to Brexit, the biggest policy error of the postwar period which will hobble the UK for generations.
    Talking of which, another perspective on that report that Brexit backers were soo keen to rubbish overnight;

    Yet the pursuit of truth demands we try to overcome such cognitive biases. I was part of the small band of Economists for Brexit. We argued, in good faith, that disentangling ourselves from the EU would unlock long-term economic potential via more policy freedom. Nine years on, we cannot pretend things have gone well so far.

    https://www.thetimes.com/article/d677a43f-837f-4725-a45e-2f90ea15ce86?shareToken=0aed068b29eebf3d5cd07ff8ffb62e2c

    Trouble is that we have the frictional downsides, but the policy freedom remains elusive.

    Now that doesn't have to mean a Breversal, or even a Brapprochment to smooth away the worst of the frictions. We could even decide that Brexit has made us poorer in cash terms, but richer in the ways that really matter.

    But if the last of those is what we want, I don't think we can complain too much about being required to pay for those (luxury) beliefs.
    Yes, I have a modicum of respect for those Brexiteers that claim the economic damage a price well worth paying for sovereignty. I think them wrong and that sovereignity illusory as we are goverened by forces such as the international bond markets over which we have little sovereignty and are bullied over tariffs and the like by capricious tyrants like Trump.

    Higher taxes and run down towns are the price of Brexit.
    If there was, say, a global single currency and global confederal government with global free movement we'd almost certainly have much higher nominal GDP growth too - trading costs would be far lower as would the costs of labour - however, it would favour large panglobal firms and also raise very serious political and sovereignty questions. Leaving it would come at a significant cost to economic growth.

    Would you accept that as a legitimate choice?
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