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What the public expects from the budget – politicalbetting.com

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,765
    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Dopermean said:

    FPT ref DavidL's comments on juries

    1) "pull jurors out of a hat" - my experience is being sorted into groups of 16 at the beginning of the week but it could just be done by computer in a matter of seconds once the juror register is complete
    2) Judge briefing the Jury on their duties and responsibilities - apart from case specific issues this is boilerplate. Could be online with a little quiz and declaration, e.g. "If I do my own research on the internet" will I a) be better briefed than the legal counsel, b) be helping my fellow jurors to understand the case or c) do 6 months d) all of the above?
    3) Check in advance whether witnesses need screens and prepare. In your cases I assume it's a given, so the screens should be there by default.

    None of the above has to be on the critical path.

    My experience is that if you're assigned to a trial in the morning then it's 11.30am by the time you're sat down, HHJ does his solemn briefing etc, now 12, they have a brief conflab and decide that there isn't time for 2 opening addresses before lunch, "jury will only remember one side", so break. 2pm before you're back in court in the afternoon, if Judge or barristers don't have an afternoon clash.

    There are delays around sending Juries out and reassembling them, but they can just be sent to the next room rather than allowed to disperse.

    Juries can be taken off the critical path for most of it. Leveson has just blamed them for the inefficiency of the professionals involved.

    There is no way 2 would work - most people will just fast forward the video or put it on and do something else
    Have all the jury prep etc run by court staff. The day before.

    Have jury prep as a courthouse function, run by staff. As a continual operation. Lining up juries, get them sorted, warned, lanyarded.

    So 9am, the judge, lawyers, etc all roll in together.

    Judge can have the option to say - “I don’t look this jury, do you have a similar one? But in a shade of mauve?”
    You're right, of course you're right, but you know the objections.

    Spending a bit more to get a lot more is still spending more, and we've conditioned ourselves to not want that.

    It's moving spending from frontline staff to backstage. And we've massively conditioned ourselves to not want that.
    Yet again on pb the most vociferous criticism of the removal of jury trials comes from the very same people who want to massively cut public spending and reduce public sector pay and benefits dramatically.

    The concept of we only get what we are willing to pay for seems to have completely passed them by.
    I have no idea if this is true, but it is rational for opinions to come in related sets, and opinions which don't arise in related ways lack an underlying coherence. Rather than turning the point into a meaningless (and maybe unverified) piece of ad hominem, it would be more useful to examine the relation of the set of opinions, and consider its worth.

    What is irrational about wanting to have a much smaller state while keeping the jury system? We had juries when we had a much smaller state. (I am not proposing either, personally, but there is nothing counter intuitive about it.)

    The frustration is the party led by this group of people have been in power most of my lifetime, and to be fair match the views of the electorate in not wanting to increase taxes.

    So we have court rooms out of use because of leaks, because we don't want to spend money.
    We have a lack of lawyers and judges, because we don't want to spend money.
    Our prisons can't cope, because we don't want to spend money.
    Prisoners come out early, without any thought of rehabilitation and commit more crime.

    Whilst I would prefer jury trials and functioning prisons myself, it does grate to hear the attacks on the status quo from the supporters of the establishment party with zero consideration of how we get here, or any serious thought on how we can change course and what resources that requires.
    Except for a very short time under Mrs T, public expenditure has risen throughout the last decades. The state in various forms manages 44% of total expenditure, over £40,000 per household, just a little short of the highest in Europe and in the middle of the developed pack. Despite that there is not a single area not crying out for much more spending. Something is wrong with the model, but it isn't that taxes are very significantly too low.
    We have no money

    Yet we are spending £700 million on saving a handful of salmon. Billions on an armoured vehicle that literally makes the occupants chronically ill. We can’t find GPs, while we train GPs who can’t get jobs. We have no money to look after children with special needs, but councils are block booking taxis to send them to school - as opposed to a school bus.

    It’s feast-or-famine mode spending. Often on insane things.
    This is the fault of the Treasury - insane budget rules where we seem to look at today and don't worry about tomorrow. The GP issue is a perfect example - we can't afford to hire them full time, but we can afford emergency cover. Or transport - can't afford a bus but can afford emergency cover.

    Do you get it yet? We cut because the Treasury says we must cut. But cuts to provision do not remove the need - which remains. And emergency provision must be done - from a separate budget - which costs more than the cut.

    I keep saying we need to invest in this stuff and be told we have no money. We do - we're literally burning it. Will need a short transition where we both burn cash and invest cash, but then no more bonfires.
    This post hits so hard. It seems like Westminster and Whitehall know it too, but won't do anything.
    Politicians won’t think past the next election.

    Cutting costs structurally benefits the next incumbent - either your political rival or an opponent.

    Mostly - Thatcher and Blair did.
  • isamisam Posts: 43,108
    DougSeal said:

    Sandpit said:

    DougSeal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Roger said:

    Flicking through the last thread I noticed a few of the Reform Lite posters criticising Rachel for being photographed with a chess board on her desk and one of them suggested she was trying to make herself look clever. She was infact underr 14 chess champion.

    I think there's a lot of misogyny when it comes to Rachel. Would people be so patronising if it was Gove for example?

    Gove is another misfit who got plenty of personal flak. It's the game.

    I don't really get the chess thing, she was clearly very good, probably top 1% of all players, but not elite. To get to that level demonstrates a decent level of logic, planning and reasoning skills. To get to elite, does the same, but also requires a level of obsession that is probably unhealthy for a national leader.
    A bit of internet digging suggests that she did little chess other than schoolgirl competitions. She doesn’t have a public ELO (chess ranking).

    Now if she could say she was 2,000 ELO, close to a Master ranking, then she might be taken seriously in the chess world.
    Huh? Why is this relevant? She’s proud of what she’s done and rightly so. If a politician rugby player had some end of season award he won from the Old Rubberduckians RFC on his desk it wouldn’t even be mentioned. Certainly no one would go carp about “lack of representative honours”

    When you’re making it the centerpiece of your pre-budget photo, one is entitled to investigate.
    You’re entitled to “investigate” (although the word is overused - I once googled the late Stuart Dickson and made the mistake of outing myself by clicking his LinkedIn profile while logged into my own - you’d think I was stalking the fucker from the reaction) but your conclusion appears to be that she hadn’t earned it. Bollocks to that.
    Ugh, a stalker as well
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,886

    DougSeal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Dopermean said:

    FPT ref DavidL's comments on juries

    1) "pull jurors out of a hat" - my experience is being sorted into groups of 16 at the beginning of the week but it could just be done by computer in a matter of seconds once the juror register is complete
    2) Judge briefing the Jury on their duties and responsibilities - apart from case specific issues this is boilerplate. Could be online with a little quiz and declaration, e.g. "If I do my own research on the internet" will I a) be better briefed than the legal counsel, b) be helping my fellow jurors to understand the case or c) do 6 months d) all of the above?
    3) Check in advance whether witnesses need screens and prepare. In your cases I assume it's a given, so the screens should be there by default.

    None of the above has to be on the critical path.

    My experience is that if you're assigned to a trial in the morning then it's 11.30am by the time you're sat down, HHJ does his solemn briefing etc, now 12, they have a brief conflab and decide that there isn't time for 2 opening addresses before lunch, "jury will only remember one side", so break. 2pm before you're back in court in the afternoon, if Judge or barristers don't have an afternoon clash.

    There are delays around sending Juries out and reassembling them, but they can just be sent to the next room rather than allowed to disperse.

    Juries can be taken off the critical path for most of it. Leveson has just blamed them for the inefficiency of the professionals involved.

    The court hours and all the wasted time etc are horrendous, all down to feathering lawyers and judges pockets.
    Yeah. We should abandon trial altogether. Waste of time.
    I suggest a leg of darts to decide guilt or innocence and then a roll of the dice for the length of sentence. Stream it on netflix with decent product placement and we could not just save a fortune but get some revenue in too.
    Nonsense.

    Instead of trial and prison - a TV show where the suspects are hunted by the public/professional hunters.

    If they are caught, they die. If they stay alive and free for 30 days, they get a cash prize.

    Turn justice into a profit centre, with popular participation.
    I prefer the "wall-off-Manhattan-and-never-let-them-out" option myself.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,204

    Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure.

    You may not like it, that's fair enough, but it's a clear, objective, and widely used measure. Hardly something to criticise BBC Verify for.

    Out of interest what would you propose as the measure of poverty? Does a child need to be starving, in rags, no shoes?
    It is not legitimate. Using a relative measure means someone can be perfectly well-off but because others are even better off the former are deemed to be 'poor'. And if those even better off suddenly have a great downturn in fortune then the previously 'poor' magically becomes 'wealthy' despite having no extra money whatsoever.

    An absolute measure is fairer.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,931
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    Dopermean said:

    FPT ref DavidL's comments on juries

    1) "pull jurors out of a hat" - my experience is being sorted into groups of 16 at the beginning of the week but it could just be done by computer in a matter of seconds once the juror register is complete
    2) Judge briefing the Jury on their duties and responsibilities - apart from case specific issues this is boilerplate. Could be online with a little quiz and declaration, e.g. "If I do my own research on the internet" will I a) be better briefed than the legal counsel, b) be helping my fellow jurors to understand the case or c) do 6 months d) all of the above?
    3) Check in advance whether witnesses need screens and prepare. In your cases I assume it's a given, so the screens should be there by default.

    None of the above has to be on the critical path.

    My experience is that if you're assigned to a trial in the morning then it's 11.30am by the time you're sat down, HHJ does his solemn briefing etc, now 12, they have a brief conflab and decide that there isn't time for 2 opening addresses before lunch, "jury will only remember one side", so break. 2pm before you're back in court in the afternoon, if Judge or barristers don't have an afternoon clash.

    There are delays around sending Juries out and reassembling them, but they can just be sent to the next room rather than allowed to disperse.

    Juries can be taken off the critical path for most of it. Leveson has just blamed them for the inefficiency of the professionals involved.

    The court hours and all the wasted time etc are horrendous, all down to feathering lawyers and judges pockets.
    Criminal lawyers aren’t earning big sums of money
    Indeed, a pupil criminal barrister will be on minimum wage while their graduate contemporaries who are trainees in London corporate law firms or pupils in commercial
    barrister chambers will be starting on £50k plus.

    After ten years commercial lawyers will also be earning about double their criminal counterparts. Only if they become KCs can criminal barristers make six figures but city law firm partners and commercial KCs can make seven figure salaries
    Yes, criminal barristers are very poorly paid. On the evidence I have seen I should that whatever they are paid it is too much.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 36,144

    Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure.

    You may not like it, that's fair enough, but it's a clear, objective, and widely used measure. Hardly something to criticise BBC Verify for.

    Out of interest what would you propose as the measure of poverty? Does a child need to be starving, in rags, no shoes?
    It is not legitimate. Using a relative measure means someone can be perfectly well-off but because others are even better off the former are deemed to be 'poor'. And if those even better off suddenly have a great downturn in fortune then the previously 'poor' magically becomes 'wealthy' despite having no extra money whatsoever.

    An absolute measure is fairer.
    An absolute measure at what level?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 36,144
    edited 11:05AM

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    DougSeal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Roger said:

    Flicking through the last thread I noticed a few of the Reform Lite posters criticising Rachel for being photographed with a chess board on her desk and one of them suggested she was trying to make herself look clever. She was infact underr 14 chess champion.

    I think there's a lot of misogyny when it comes to Rachel. Would people be so patronising if it was Gove for example?

    Gove is another misfit who got plenty of personal flak. It's the game.

    I don't really get the chess thing, she was clearly very good, probably top 1% of all players, but not elite. To get to that level demonstrates a decent level of logic, planning and reasoning skills. To get to elite, does the same, but also requires a level of obsession that is probably unhealthy for a national leader.
    A bit of internet digging suggests that she did little chess other than schoolgirl competitions. She doesn’t have a public ELO (chess ranking).

    Now if she could say she was 2,000 ELO, close to a Master ranking, then she might be taken seriously in the chess world.
    Huh? Why is this relevant? She’s proud of what she’s done and rightly so. If a politician rugby player had some end of season award he won from the Old Rubberduckians RFC on his desk it wouldn’t even be mentioned. Certainly no one would go carp about “lack of representative honours”

    When you’re making it the centerpiece of your pre-budget photo, one is entitled to investigate.
    Pretty pathetic trying to prove how clever you are by sticking a chess board in teh picture, what a wally. She could not run a bath.
    I can find one match on Chessbase against a 2000 ranked player (lost).
    https://players.chessbase.com/en/player/Reeves_Rachel/685806
    ...
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,329

    Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure.

    You may not like it, that's fair enough, but it's a clear, objective, and widely used measure. Hardly something to criticise BBC Verify for.

    Out of interest what would you propose as the measure of poverty? Does a child need to be starving, in rags, no shoes?
    When we interrogate our idea of poverty it is always a relative concept at its core, because poverty is ultimately about being excluded from the normal patterns of consumption and participation in our current society. In my view it is so-called 'absolute' poverty measures that are bullshit.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 31,458
    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Dopermean said:

    FPT ref DavidL's comments on juries

    1) "pull jurors out of a hat" - my experience is being sorted into groups of 16 at the beginning of the week but it could just be done by computer in a matter of seconds once the juror register is complete
    2) Judge briefing the Jury on their duties and responsibilities - apart from case specific issues this is boilerplate. Could be online with a little quiz and declaration, e.g. "If I do my own research on the internet" will I a) be better briefed than the legal counsel, b) be helping my fellow jurors to understand the case or c) do 6 months d) all of the above?
    3) Check in advance whether witnesses need screens and prepare. In your cases I assume it's a given, so the screens should be there by default.

    None of the above has to be on the critical path.

    My experience is that if you're assigned to a trial in the morning then it's 11.30am by the time you're sat down, HHJ does his solemn briefing etc, now 12, they have a brief conflab and decide that there isn't time for 2 opening addresses before lunch, "jury will only remember one side", so break. 2pm before you're back in court in the afternoon, if Judge or barristers don't have an afternoon clash.

    There are delays around sending Juries out and reassembling them, but they can just be sent to the next room rather than allowed to disperse.

    Juries can be taken off the critical path for most of it. Leveson has just blamed them for the inefficiency of the professionals involved.

    There is no way 2 would work - most people will just fast forward the video or put it on and do something else
    Have all the jury prep etc run by court staff. The day before.

    Have jury prep as a courthouse function, run by staff. As a continual operation. Lining up juries, get them sorted, warned, lanyarded.

    So 9am, the judge, lawyers, etc all roll in together.

    Judge can have the option to say - “I don’t look this jury, do you have a similar one? But in a shade of mauve?”
    You're right, of course you're right, but you know the objections.

    Spending a bit more to get a lot more is still spending more, and we've conditioned ourselves to not want that.

    It's moving spending from frontline staff to backstage. And we've massively conditioned ourselves to not want that.
    Yet again on pb the most vociferous criticism of the removal of jury trials comes from the very same people who want to massively cut public spending and reduce public sector pay and benefits dramatically.

    The concept of we only get what we are willing to pay for seems to have completely passed them by.
    I have no idea if this is true, but it is rational for opinions to come in related sets, and opinions which don't arise in related ways lack an underlying coherence. Rather than turning the point into a meaningless (and maybe unverified) piece of ad hominem, it would be more useful to examine the relation of the set of opinions, and consider its worth.

    What is irrational about wanting to have a much smaller state while keeping the jury system? We had juries when we had a much smaller state. (I am not proposing either, personally, but there is nothing counter intuitive about it.)

    The frustration is the party led by this group of people have been in power most of my lifetime, and to be fair match the views of the electorate in not wanting to increase taxes.

    So we have court rooms out of use because of leaks, because we don't want to spend money.
    We have a lack of lawyers and judges, because we don't want to spend money.
    Our prisons can't cope, because we don't want to spend money.
    Prisoners come out early, without any thought of rehabilitation and commit more crime.

    Whilst I would prefer jury trials and functioning prisons myself, it does grate to hear the attacks on the status quo from the supporters of the establishment party with zero consideration of how we get here, or any serious thought on how we can change course and what resources that requires.
    Except for a very short time under Mrs T, public expenditure has risen throughout the last decades. The state in various forms manages 44% of total expenditure, over £40,000 per household, just a little short of the highest in Europe and in the middle of the developed pack. Despite that there is not a single area not crying out for much more spending. Something is wrong with the model, but it isn't that taxes are very significantly too low.
    We have no money

    Yet we are spending £700 million on saving a handful of salmon. Billions on an armoured vehicle that literally makes the occupants chronically ill. We can’t find GPs, while we train GPs who can’t get jobs. We have no money to look after children with special needs, but councils are block booking taxis to send them to school - as opposed to a school bus.

    It’s feast-or-famine mode spending. Often on insane things.
    This is the fault of the Treasury - insane budget rules where we seem to look at today and don't worry about tomorrow. The GP issue is a perfect example - we can't afford to hire them full time, but we can afford emergency cover. Or transport - can't afford a bus but can afford emergency cover.

    Do you get it yet? We cut because the Treasury says we must cut. But cuts to provision do not remove the need - which remains. And emergency provision must be done - from a separate budget - which costs more than the cut.

    I keep saying we need to invest in this stuff and be told we have no money. We do - we're literally burning it. Will need a short transition where we both burn cash and invest cash, but then no more bonfires.
    This post hits so hard. It seems like Westminster and Whitehall know it too, but won't do anything.
    I am utterly fucking sick of this stupidity. Its as bad up here as well. Winter snot season - schools asking parents to send their kids in with tissues as the school is running out. Teachers joking about wanting classroom supplies for presents from their kids instead of sweeties. There's literally no money at the front line - but we have schools with heating stuck on full so that everyone melts and windows need to keep being opened (in the summer as well!) because budget rules don't allow repairs when the school is scheduled for replacement in 2019.

    Bureaucrats drown in the micro whilst missing the macro and strategic. You can't the detail because the structure is wrong, but you can't spend money on the structure because you're spending too much money in emergency micro fixes.

    House building. Everyone agrees we need to build more houses but we're building less. Why?
    Land banking by developers
    Arcane endless planning regulations
    Housing Associations starved of resources
    A comprehensive lack of builders sparkies joiners plumbers plasterers etc etc - oh and we'd have to import much of the materiel because we've stopped making them because lack of money.
    But we can't import as we left the EU and they cost more. And we don't like all these forrin workers taking jobs from the untrained unwilling flag shagging fucks.

    FFS. Start at the strategic. OK, we need to build 1.5m houses the fuck yesterday.
    So we need to train the people who will build them. FE colleges here is cash. And a marketing campaign to make building cool
    We need to invest in a brickworks and other stuff - tax incentives to get manufacturing here
    We need to allow LHAs to borrow to build
    We need to bonfire the planning barriers
    We need to give the land bankers 6 months to start or lose the land
    All to build a flood of apartments and starter homes at a social rent as never for sale. Which allows a significant drop in % of wages wasted on rent which allows more money to circulate in the economy which means jobs and more taxes which pays back the investment in skills etc

    Will get any of that? Will we bollocks.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,803
    IanB2 said:

    DougSeal said:

    I’m glad we’re concentrating on the important things about the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The whereabouts of her chessboard and how she styles her hair. All of vast import.

    All the budget measures are announced already; what else are we supposed to talk about while we wait to see if they change their minds again?
    How do you know?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,204

    Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure.

    You may not like it, that's fair enough, but it's a clear, objective, and widely used measure. Hardly something to criticise BBC Verify for.

    Out of interest what would you propose as the measure of poverty? Does a child need to be starving, in rags, no shoes?
    It is not legitimate. Using a relative measure means someone can be perfectly well-off but because others are even better off the former are deemed to be 'poor'. And if those even better off suddenly have a great downturn in fortune then the previously 'poor' magically becomes 'wealthy' despite having no extra money whatsoever.

    An absolute measure is fairer.
    An absolute measure at what level?
    Enough to meet essentials, with a small amount left over for minor luxuries (meals out, cinema etc) and modest saving.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 13,066

    Talking of Russian, whatever happened to Dura Ace?

    Did he not say he was off on an extended project somewhere?
    At least it wasn't a three-day special operation that could keep him away for years.
    Late of this parish
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,596
    edited 11:06AM
    CBA !
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,497
    Richard Burgon has joined in the epidemic of children’s TV style videos to show how billionaires are hoarding the pasta.

    https://x.com/richardburgon/status/1993622970003288468
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,774

    Cyclefree said:

    I am going out to lunch at a pub overlooking the estuary, while I still have the money to afford it.

    The existence of jury trials is NOT the reason for court delays. The reasons are:

    1. Reducing court sitting days even though the Lady Chief Justice has said judges can sit for more days so there is no lack of availability.
    2. Closure and selling of courts.
    3. A lack of sufficient funding for the justice system at every level.

    1 and 2 are easily remediable. You do not abolish an 800 year old fundamental principle because of a lack of short-term funding. Unless you're an illiberal cretin, that is.

    This is a power grab by the state of one of the few areas in British life which really is democratic, generally - though not invariably - works well and, crucially, is not controlled by the state and cannot be pressured by it. And can tell the state to get stuffed when it overreaches eg Ponting, the Colston Four. That is why authoritarians hate it and want to get rid of it. It must be resisted by all possible means.

    This proposal shows how much contempt Labour has for us and our liberties.

    Was Colston overreach? Not everyone agrees that its ok to vandalise things you don't like. I'd have preferred them found guilty but with a minimum penalty. I.e. they did the crime, but we understand and sympathise with why.
    Indeed see also the Labour councillor who was acquitted of hate speech. I support juries overall but when they render not guilty verdicts for political reasons rather than on the law the case for judge led verdicts in middle ranked offences grows. The escort rider who killed an elderly lady crossing the road at speed escorting the Duchess of Edinburgh might also have been convicted of death by careless driving by a judge which a jury acquitted him of
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,765
    edited 11:07AM
    viewcode said:

    DougSeal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Dopermean said:

    FPT ref DavidL's comments on juries

    1) "pull jurors out of a hat" - my experience is being sorted into groups of 16 at the beginning of the week but it could just be done by computer in a matter of seconds once the juror register is complete
    2) Judge briefing the Jury on their duties and responsibilities - apart from case specific issues this is boilerplate. Could be online with a little quiz and declaration, e.g. "If I do my own research on the internet" will I a) be better briefed than the legal counsel, b) be helping my fellow jurors to understand the case or c) do 6 months d) all of the above?
    3) Check in advance whether witnesses need screens and prepare. In your cases I assume it's a given, so the screens should be there by default.

    None of the above has to be on the critical path.

    My experience is that if you're assigned to a trial in the morning then it's 11.30am by the time you're sat down, HHJ does his solemn briefing etc, now 12, they have a brief conflab and decide that there isn't time for 2 opening addresses before lunch, "jury will only remember one side", so break. 2pm before you're back in court in the afternoon, if Judge or barristers don't have an afternoon clash.

    There are delays around sending Juries out and reassembling them, but they can just be sent to the next room rather than allowed to disperse.

    Juries can be taken off the critical path for most of it. Leveson has just blamed them for the inefficiency of the professionals involved.

    The court hours and all the wasted time etc are horrendous, all down to feathering lawyers and judges pockets.
    Yeah. We should abandon trial altogether. Waste of time.
    I suggest a leg of darts to decide guilt or innocence and then a roll of the dice for the length of sentence. Stream it on netflix with decent product placement and we could not just save a fortune but get some revenue in too.
    Nonsense.

    Instead of trial and prison - a TV show where the suspects are hunted by the public/professional hunters.

    If they are caught, they die. If they stay alive and free for 30 days, they get a cash prize.

    Turn justice into a profit centre, with popular participation.
    I prefer the "wall-off-Manhattan-and-never-let-them-out" option myself.
    Waste of valuable real estate

    If you want to do that use a random island in the Pacific
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 21,337

    Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure.

    You may not like it, that's fair enough, but it's a clear, objective, and widely used measure. Hardly something to criticise BBC Verify for.

    Out of interest what would you propose as the measure of poverty? Does a child need to be starving, in rags, no shoes?
    It is not legitimate. Using a relative measure means someone can be perfectly well-off but because others are even better off the former are deemed to be 'poor'. And if those even better off suddenly have a great downturn in fortune then the previously 'poor' magically becomes 'wealthy' despite having no extra money whatsoever.

    An absolute measure is fairer.
    Yep. Relative poverty is NOT a measure of individual circumstance, it is a measure of inequality. The left love it. Absolute poverty is whether you can heat your house, eat food etc. The almost universal adoption of relative poverty has not helped.
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,596

    Richard Burgon has joined in the epidemic of children’s TV style videos to show how billionaires are hoarding the pasta.

    https://x.com/richardburgon/status/1993622970003288468

    Billionaires are to the hard left what asylum seekers are to the hard right.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 36,144

    Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure.

    You may not like it, that's fair enough, but it's a clear, objective, and widely used measure. Hardly something to criticise BBC Verify for.

    Out of interest what would you propose as the measure of poverty? Does a child need to be starving, in rags, no shoes?
    It is not legitimate. Using a relative measure means someone can be perfectly well-off but because others are even better off the former are deemed to be 'poor'. And if those even better off suddenly have a great downturn in fortune then the previously 'poor' magically becomes 'wealthy' despite having no extra money whatsoever.

    An absolute measure is fairer.
    An absolute measure at what level?
    Enough to meet essentials, with a small amount left over for minor luxuries (meals out, cinema etc) and modest saving.
    Well that puts most UC recipient working families in poverty then.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,774

    DougSeal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Dopermean said:

    FPT ref DavidL's comments on juries

    1) "pull jurors out of a hat" - my experience is being sorted into groups of 16 at the beginning of the week but it could just be done by computer in a matter of seconds once the juror register is complete
    2) Judge briefing the Jury on their duties and responsibilities - apart from case specific issues this is boilerplate. Could be online with a little quiz and declaration, e.g. "If I do my own research on the internet" will I a) be better briefed than the legal counsel, b) be helping my fellow jurors to understand the case or c) do 6 months d) all of the above?
    3) Check in advance whether witnesses need screens and prepare. In your cases I assume it's a given, so the screens should be there by default.

    None of the above has to be on the critical path.

    My experience is that if you're assigned to a trial in the morning then it's 11.30am by the time you're sat down, HHJ does his solemn briefing etc, now 12, they have a brief conflab and decide that there isn't time for 2 opening addresses before lunch, "jury will only remember one side", so break. 2pm before you're back in court in the afternoon, if Judge or barristers don't have an afternoon clash.

    There are delays around sending Juries out and reassembling them, but they can just be sent to the next room rather than allowed to disperse.

    Juries can be taken off the critical path for most of it. Leveson has just blamed them for the inefficiency of the professionals involved.

    The court hours and all the wasted time etc are horrendous, all down to feathering lawyers and judges pockets.
    Yeah. We should abandon trial altogether. Waste of time.
    I suggest a leg of darts to decide guilt or innocence and then a roll of the dice for the length of sentence. Stream it on netflix with decent product placement and we could not just save a fortune but get some revenue in too.
    Nonsense.

    Instead of trial and prison - a TV show where the suspects are hunted by the public/professional hunters.

    If they are caught, they die. If they stay alive and free for 30 days, they get a cash prize.

    Turn justice into a profit centre, with popular participation.
    Been watching Running Man?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,204
    edited 11:09AM

    Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure.

    You may not like it, that's fair enough, but it's a clear, objective, and widely used measure. Hardly something to criticise BBC Verify for.

    Out of interest what would you propose as the measure of poverty? Does a child need to be starving, in rags, no shoes?
    When we interrogate our idea of poverty it is always a relative concept at its core, because poverty is ultimately about being excluded from the normal patterns of consumption and participation in our current society. In my view it is so-called 'absolute' poverty measures that are bullshit.
    Not being able to 'keep up with the Joneses' in a neighbourhood pissing contest doesn't make someone poor. It makes them unable to afford an unnecessary and 'fashionable' splurging of cash you don't have on things you don't need. And the idea that should be subsidised by the taxpayer is just another tier in the cake of relative poverty bullshit.

    Edited: as an aside, I'll be AFK for the Budget, which is a shame but needs must.
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,596

    Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure.

    You may not like it, that's fair enough, but it's a clear, objective, and widely used measure. Hardly something to criticise BBC Verify for.

    Out of interest what would you propose as the measure of poverty? Does a child need to be starving, in rags, no shoes?
    It is not legitimate. Using a relative measure means someone can be perfectly well-off but because others are even better off the former are deemed to be 'poor'. And if those even better off suddenly have a great downturn in fortune then the previously 'poor' magically becomes 'wealthy' despite having no extra money whatsoever.

    An absolute measure is fairer.
    Yep. Relative poverty is NOT a measure of individual circumstance, it is a measure of inequality. The left love it. Absolute poverty is whether you can heat your house, eat food etc. The almost universal adoption of relative poverty has not helped.
    So should someone win 150 million on the euro millions relative poverty increases slightly although no one is materially worse off ?
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 5,004
    viewcode said:

    DougSeal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Dopermean said:

    FPT ref DavidL's comments on juries

    1) "pull jurors out of a hat" - my experience is being sorted into groups of 16 at the beginning of the week but it could just be done by computer in a matter of seconds once the juror register is complete
    2) Judge briefing the Jury on their duties and responsibilities - apart from case specific issues this is boilerplate. Could be online with a little quiz and declaration, e.g. "If I do my own research on the internet" will I a) be better briefed than the legal counsel, b) be helping my fellow jurors to understand the case or c) do 6 months d) all of the above?
    3) Check in advance whether witnesses need screens and prepare. In your cases I assume it's a given, so the screens should be there by default.

    None of the above has to be on the critical path.

    My experience is that if you're assigned to a trial in the morning then it's 11.30am by the time you're sat down, HHJ does his solemn briefing etc, now 12, they have a brief conflab and decide that there isn't time for 2 opening addresses before lunch, "jury will only remember one side", so break. 2pm before you're back in court in the afternoon, if Judge or barristers don't have an afternoon clash.

    There are delays around sending Juries out and reassembling them, but they can just be sent to the next room rather than allowed to disperse.

    Juries can be taken off the critical path for most of it. Leveson has just blamed them for the inefficiency of the professionals involved.

    The court hours and all the wasted time etc are horrendous, all down to feathering lawyers and judges pockets.
    Yeah. We should abandon trial altogether. Waste of time.
    I suggest a leg of darts to decide guilt or innocence and then a roll of the dice for the length of sentence. Stream it on netflix with decent product placement and we could not just save a fortune but get some revenue in too.
    Nonsense.

    Instead of trial and prison - a TV show where the suspects are hunted by the public/professional hunters.

    If they are caught, they die. If they stay alive and free for 30 days, they get a cash prize.

    Turn justice into a profit centre, with popular participation.
    I prefer the "wall-off-Manhattan-and-never-let-them-out" option myself.
    One possible the government could look at might involve merging the judiciary with the constabulary, delivering fast and efficient justice for today's modern criminals.

    On second thought, better not give them any ideas...
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,180

    Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure.

    You may not like it, that's fair enough, but it's a clear, objective, and widely used measure. Hardly something to criticise BBC Verify for.

    Out of interest what would you propose as the measure of poverty? Does a child need to be starving, in rags, no shoes?
    It is not legitimate. Using a relative measure means someone can be perfectly well-off but because others are even better off the former are deemed to be 'poor'. And if those even better off suddenly have a great downturn in fortune then the previously 'poor' magically becomes 'wealthy' despite having no extra money whatsoever.

    An absolute measure is fairer.
    Yep. Relative poverty is NOT a measure of individual circumstance, it is a measure of inequality. The left love it. Absolute poverty is whether you can heat your house, eat food etc. The almost universal adoption of relative poverty has not helped.
    So what? If the point of child benefit is to encourage people to have children and to ensure that children are in a position to feel safe, to learn, and to thrive, then relative poverty seems reasonable.
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,596
    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Dopermean said:

    FPT ref DavidL's comments on juries

    1) "pull jurors out of a hat" - my experience is being sorted into groups of 16 at the beginning of the week but it could just be done by computer in a matter of seconds once the juror register is complete
    2) Judge briefing the Jury on their duties and responsibilities - apart from case specific issues this is boilerplate. Could be online with a little quiz and declaration, e.g. "If I do my own research on the internet" will I a) be better briefed than the legal counsel, b) be helping my fellow jurors to understand the case or c) do 6 months d) all of the above?
    3) Check in advance whether witnesses need screens and prepare. In your cases I assume it's a given, so the screens should be there by default.

    None of the above has to be on the critical path.

    My experience is that if you're assigned to a trial in the morning then it's 11.30am by the time you're sat down, HHJ does his solemn briefing etc, now 12, they have a brief conflab and decide that there isn't time for 2 opening addresses before lunch, "jury will only remember one side", so break. 2pm before you're back in court in the afternoon, if Judge or barristers don't have an afternoon clash.

    There are delays around sending Juries out and reassembling them, but they can just be sent to the next room rather than allowed to disperse.

    Juries can be taken off the critical path for most of it. Leveson has just blamed them for the inefficiency of the professionals involved.

    The court hours and all the wasted time etc are horrendous, all down to feathering lawyers and judges pockets.
    Yeah. We should abandon trial altogether. Waste of time.
    I suggest a leg of darts to decide guilt or innocence and then a roll of the dice for the length of sentence. Stream it on netflix with decent product placement and we could not just save a fortune but get some revenue in too.
    Nonsense.

    Instead of trial and prison - a TV show where the suspects are hunted by the public/professional hunters.

    If they are caught, they die. If they stay alive and free for 30 days, they get a cash prize.

    Turn justice into a profit centre, with popular participation.
    Been watching Running Man?
    We went to see it yesterday. Hokum, but entertaining nonetheless
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,698

    Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure.

    You may not like it, that's fair enough, but it's a clear, objective, and widely used measure. Hardly something to criticise BBC Verify for.

    Out of interest what would you propose as the measure of poverty? Does a child need to be starving, in rags, no shoes?
    It is not legitimate. Using a relative measure means someone can be perfectly well-off but because others are even better off the former are deemed to be 'poor'. And if those even better off suddenly have a great downturn in fortune then the previously 'poor' magically becomes 'wealthy' despite having no extra money whatsoever.

    An absolute measure is fairer.
    Yep. Relative poverty is NOT a measure of individual circumstance, it is a measure of inequality. The left love it. Absolute poverty is whether you can heat your house, eat food etc. The almost universal adoption of relative poverty has not helped.
    I can see it having some utility as a measure, but it is reported on as if it is like absolute poverty, which I think confuses what is being talked about as they are not the same thing and one is more vital a concern than the other.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,714
    viewcode said:

    Carnyx said:

    viewcode said:

    IanB2 said:

    Roger said:

    Flicking through the last thread I noticed a few of the Reform Lite posters criticising Rachel for being photographed with a chess board on her desk and one of them suggested she was trying to make herself look clever. She was infact underr 14 chess champion.

    I think there's a lot of misogyny when it comes to Rachel. Would people be so patronising if it was Gove for example?

    As always, two things can be true at once.

    Is some criticism of Reeves misogynistic? Yes, because misogyny exists and I don’t think it’s particularly controversial to say that woman are often held to different standards. If you accept that then it does of course naturally follow that some of the criticism she attracts comes from that place.

    But let’s not conflate criticism of her as being a poor steward of the economy as being down to her gender. She’s a poor steward of the economy. Her decisions have been highly questionable. Her political tactics have all backfired. She has contributed to a significant amount of economic uncertainty and loss of confidence in the UK. Criticism does not always equal prejudice.
    More fundamentally, chess champion/enthusiast or not, why would she have a chess set placed so prominently in front of her at her desk at work, if not for the photo op and to get people like us talking about her chess prowess?
    Whenever I see a chess board strategically placed in a promotional photo I always check to see if it is correctly set up. You would be amazed how often the board is the wrong way round. Non-players might be surprised to know there is a right and wrong way. Regular players spot the mistake instantly.

    I guess the job of placing the board is delegated to an oik and the chances of that person knowing about this is less than fifty-fifty.
    Spot the deliberate mistake...



    The king and queen on the top rank are on the wrong squares
    Hmm, isn't it the lower rank K&Q, actually?
    Yes I think you are right, assuming the bottom rank is white.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess#Setup
    Assuming indeed! I just took the bottom right square as white - made more sense somehow.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,774
    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Dopermean said:

    FPT ref DavidL's comments on juries

    1) "pull jurors out of a hat" - my experience is being sorted into groups of 16 at the beginning of the week but it could just be done by computer in a matter of seconds once the juror register is complete
    2) Judge briefing the Jury on their duties and responsibilities - apart from case specific issues this is boilerplate. Could be online with a little quiz and declaration, e.g. "If I do my own research on the internet" will I a) be better briefed than the legal counsel, b) be helping my fellow jurors to understand the case or c) do 6 months d) all of the above?
    3) Check in advance whether witnesses need screens and prepare. In your cases I assume it's a given, so the screens should be there by default.

    None of the above has to be on the critical path.

    My experience is that if you're assigned to a trial in the morning then it's 11.30am by the time you're sat down, HHJ does his solemn briefing etc, now 12, they have a brief conflab and decide that there isn't time for 2 opening addresses before lunch, "jury will only remember one side", so break. 2pm before you're back in court in the afternoon, if Judge or barristers don't have an afternoon clash.

    There are delays around sending Juries out and reassembling them, but they can just be sent to the next room rather than allowed to disperse.

    Juries can be taken off the critical path for most of it. Leveson has just blamed them for the inefficiency of the professionals involved.

    The court hours and all the wasted time etc are horrendous, all down to feathering lawyers and judges pockets.
    Yeah. We should abandon trial altogether. Waste of time.
    I suggest a leg of darts to decide guilt or innocence and then a roll of the dice for the length of sentence. Stream it on netflix with decent product placement and we could not just save a fortune but get some revenue in too.
    Nonsense.

    Instead of trial and prison - a TV show where the suspects are hunted by the public/professional hunters.

    If they are caught, they die. If they stay alive and free for 30 days, they get a cash prize.

    Turn justice into a profit centre, with popular participation.
    Been watching Running Man?
    We went to see it yesterday. Hokum, but entertaining nonetheless
    Yes we saw it at the weekend and found it surprisingly good and a more thoughtful version than the Arnie original. Stephen King also has said the new film is closer to his book
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,765
    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Dopermean said:

    FPT ref DavidL's comments on juries

    1) "pull jurors out of a hat" - my experience is being sorted into groups of 16 at the beginning of the week but it could just be done by computer in a matter of seconds once the juror register is complete
    2) Judge briefing the Jury on their duties and responsibilities - apart from case specific issues this is boilerplate. Could be online with a little quiz and declaration, e.g. "If I do my own research on the internet" will I a) be better briefed than the legal counsel, b) be helping my fellow jurors to understand the case or c) do 6 months d) all of the above?
    3) Check in advance whether witnesses need screens and prepare. In your cases I assume it's a given, so the screens should be there by default.

    None of the above has to be on the critical path.

    My experience is that if you're assigned to a trial in the morning then it's 11.30am by the time you're sat down, HHJ does his solemn briefing etc, now 12, they have a brief conflab and decide that there isn't time for 2 opening addresses before lunch, "jury will only remember one side", so break. 2pm before you're back in court in the afternoon, if Judge or barristers don't have an afternoon clash.

    There are delays around sending Juries out and reassembling them, but they can just be sent to the next room rather than allowed to disperse.

    Juries can be taken off the critical path for most of it. Leveson has just blamed them for the inefficiency of the professionals involved.

    The court hours and all the wasted time etc are horrendous, all down to feathering lawyers and judges pockets.
    Yeah. We should abandon trial altogether. Waste of time.
    I suggest a leg of darts to decide guilt or innocence and then a roll of the dice for the length of sentence. Stream it on netflix with decent product placement and we could not just save a fortune but get some revenue in too.
    Nonsense.

    Instead of trial and prison - a TV show where the suspects are hunted by the public/professional hunters.

    If they are caught, they die. If they stay alive and free for 30 days, they get a cash prize.

    Turn justice into a profit centre, with popular participation.
    Been watching Running Man?
    We went to see it yesterday. Hokum, but entertaining nonetheless
    The book is better than either version.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,329

    Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure.

    You may not like it, that's fair enough, but it's a clear, objective, and widely used measure. Hardly something to criticise BBC Verify for.

    Out of interest what would you propose as the measure of poverty? Does a child need to be starving, in rags, no shoes?
    When we interrogate our idea of poverty it is always a relative concept at its core, because poverty is ultimately about being excluded from the normal patterns of consumption and participation in our current society. In my view it is so-called 'absolute' poverty measures that are bullshit.
    Not being able to 'keep up with the Joneses' in a neighbourhood pissing contest doesn't make someone poor. It makes them unable to afford an unnecessary and 'fashionable' splurging of cash you don't have on things you don't need. And the idea that should be subsidised by the taxpayer is just another tier in the cake of relative poverty bullshit.

    Edited: as an aside, I'll be AFK for the Budget, which is a shame but needs must.
    It's not about keeping up with Jones's. The point is that what we might consider an absolute poverty line now would be very different to the absolute poverty line 50 years ago, because we have different expectations about what constitutes a minimum standard of living, and these expectations are related to what we consider a normal standard of living. This is why I find the idea of some kind of objective and immutable poverty line fundamentally dishonest.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,204
    edited 11:16AM

    Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure.

    You may not like it, that's fair enough, but it's a clear, objective, and widely used measure. Hardly something to criticise BBC Verify for.

    Out of interest what would you propose as the measure of poverty? Does a child need to be starving, in rags, no shoes?
    When we interrogate our idea of poverty it is always a relative concept at its core, because poverty is ultimately about being excluded from the normal patterns of consumption and participation in our current society. In my view it is so-called 'absolute' poverty measures that are bullshit.
    Not being able to 'keep up with the Joneses' in a neighbourhood pissing contest doesn't make someone poor. It makes them unable to afford an unnecessary and 'fashionable' splurging of cash you don't have on things you don't need. And the idea that should be subsidised by the taxpayer is just another tier in the cake of relative poverty bullshit.

    Edited: as an aside, I'll be AFK for the Budget, which is a shame but needs must.
    It's not about keeping up with Jones's. The point is that what we might consider an absolute poverty line now would be very different to the absolute poverty line 50 years ago, because we have different expectations about what constitutes a minimum standard of living, and these expectations are related to what we consider a normal standard of living. This is why I find the idea of some kind of objective and immutable poverty line fundamentally dishonest.
    Nobody said the absolute poverty line should never be changed.

    Edited: On Jones: you said earlier "...because poverty is ultimately about being excluded from the normal patterns of consumption and participation in our current society....."
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,457

    Roger said:

    They are already doing a post-mortem on the budget that hasn't even happened yet. This from the 10AM news

    "The Chancellor will drag a million more people into tax by raising the tax threshold though she herself criticised this in 2023..."

    Freezing the basic rate threshold further beyond 2028 will be politically damaging to Reeves, the more so as she explicitly said in November 2024 that she would not do that and is also on record as you point out for criticising the current freeze previously. And that makes me wonder if it is really her intention to do so. Having ensured by either design or accident that all the attention is back on income tax thresholds, an unexpected decision to not extend the Conservatives' freeze on the basic rate tax threshold and to continue to apply the freeze only to the higher rate rate tax thresholds would I think be politically astute and (barring some other unexpected big nasties) allow the budget to be framed with justification as one protecting living standards of working people on average incomes while limiting the pain to those on higher incomes. There are votes to be gained from that, especially from those whose support Labour has lost since 2024.

    That's not a prediction, because Reeves and Starmer have been so politically inept over the past 16 months that they may not appreciate both the danger and the opportunity. If they continue in that vein they really do deserve the boot from Labour MPs.
    OK, but where’s the money coming from in that case?

    She needs to raise much more, and only freezing the higher rate threshold won’t get her there.

    She’s being forced into freezing the thresholds as a necessity because she shied away from increasing the rates. There’s no other fiscal lever other than VAT (which she won’t touch, for the same reason) which is open to her to get the money in she wants.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,774

    Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure.

    You may not like it, that's fair enough, but it's a clear, objective, and widely used measure. Hardly something to criticise BBC Verify for.

    Out of interest what would you propose as the measure of poverty? Does a child need to be starving, in rags, no shoes?
    It is not legitimate. Using a relative measure means someone can be perfectly well-off but because others are even better off the former are deemed to be 'poor'. And if those even better off suddenly have a great downturn in fortune then the previously 'poor' magically becomes 'wealthy' despite having no extra money whatsoever.

    An absolute measure is fairer.
    An absolute measure at what level?
    Enough to meet essentials, with a small amount left over for minor luxuries (meals out, cinema etc) and modest saving.
    Closer but still relative not absolute poverty.

    Absolute poverty is not having a roof over your head, not having enough food and not having enough to drink and not having enough clothing, especially to keep you warm in winter
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 36,144
    Taz said:

    Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure.

    You may not like it, that's fair enough, but it's a clear, objective, and widely used measure. Hardly something to criticise BBC Verify for.

    Out of interest what would you propose as the measure of poverty? Does a child need to be starving, in rags, no shoes?
    It is not legitimate. Using a relative measure means someone can be perfectly well-off but because others are even better off the former are deemed to be 'poor'. And if those even better off suddenly have a great downturn in fortune then the previously 'poor' magically becomes 'wealthy' despite having no extra money whatsoever.

    An absolute measure is fairer.
    Yep. Relative poverty is NOT a measure of individual circumstance, it is a measure of inequality. The left love it. Absolute poverty is whether you can heat your house, eat food etc. The almost universal adoption of relative poverty has not helped.
    So should someone win 150 million on the euro millions relative poverty increases slightly although no one is materially worse off ?
    Stupid point but even then it's not really true. Where did that 150 million come from?

    But how about sharing us what your definition of poverty would be?

    @Morris_Dancer's was rather generous imo, including as it did "a small amount left over for minor luxuries (meals out, cinema etc) and modest saving". Try doing that on £80 per week, even if your full rent is separately covered (for most it isn't).
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 36,144
    HYUFD said:

    Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure.

    You may not like it, that's fair enough, but it's a clear, objective, and widely used measure. Hardly something to criticise BBC Verify for.

    Out of interest what would you propose as the measure of poverty? Does a child need to be starving, in rags, no shoes?
    It is not legitimate. Using a relative measure means someone can be perfectly well-off but because others are even better off the former are deemed to be 'poor'. And if those even better off suddenly have a great downturn in fortune then the previously 'poor' magically becomes 'wealthy' despite having no extra money whatsoever.

    An absolute measure is fairer.
    An absolute measure at what level?
    Enough to meet essentials, with a small amount left over for minor luxuries (meals out, cinema etc) and modest saving.
    Closer but still relative not absolute poverty.

    Absolute poverty is not having a roof over your head, not having enough food and not having enough to drink and not having enough clothing, especially to keep you warm in winter
    'Absolute' in this context means a fixed, not relative, measure.

    You are using it in the sense of extreme which is not where this discussion started.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 13,066
    DougSeal said:

    Talking of Russian, whatever happened to Dura Ace?

    Did he not say he was off on an extended project somewhere?
    At least it wasn't a three-day special operation that could keep him away for years.
    Late of this parish
    Sorry, replied to the wrong question
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,596
    HYUFD said:

    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    DougSeal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Dopermean said:

    FPT ref DavidL's comments on juries

    1) "pull jurors out of a hat" - my experience is being sorted into groups of 16 at the beginning of the week but it could just be done by computer in a matter of seconds once the juror register is complete
    2) Judge briefing the Jury on their duties and responsibilities - apart from case specific issues this is boilerplate. Could be online with a little quiz and declaration, e.g. "If I do my own research on the internet" will I a) be better briefed than the legal counsel, b) be helping my fellow jurors to understand the case or c) do 6 months d) all of the above?
    3) Check in advance whether witnesses need screens and prepare. In your cases I assume it's a given, so the screens should be there by default.

    None of the above has to be on the critical path.

    My experience is that if you're assigned to a trial in the morning then it's 11.30am by the time you're sat down, HHJ does his solemn briefing etc, now 12, they have a brief conflab and decide that there isn't time for 2 opening addresses before lunch, "jury will only remember one side", so break. 2pm before you're back in court in the afternoon, if Judge or barristers don't have an afternoon clash.

    There are delays around sending Juries out and reassembling them, but they can just be sent to the next room rather than allowed to disperse.

    Juries can be taken off the critical path for most of it. Leveson has just blamed them for the inefficiency of the professionals involved.

    The court hours and all the wasted time etc are horrendous, all down to feathering lawyers and judges pockets.
    Yeah. We should abandon trial altogether. Waste of time.
    I suggest a leg of darts to decide guilt or innocence and then a roll of the dice for the length of sentence. Stream it on netflix with decent product placement and we could not just save a fortune but get some revenue in too.
    Nonsense.

    Instead of trial and prison - a TV show where the suspects are hunted by the public/professional hunters.

    If they are caught, they die. If they stay alive and free for 30 days, they get a cash prize.

    Turn justice into a profit centre, with popular participation.
    Been watching Running Man?
    We went to see it yesterday. Hokum, but entertaining nonetheless
    Yes we saw it at the weekend and found it surprisingly good and a more thoughtful version than the Arnie original. Stephen King also has said the new film is closer to his book
    A few messages in there. A little bit of anti capitalism and anti consumerism.

    It held my interest for the whole time.

    Sandra Dickinson in it too, my god, I know we all age but I would never have knew it was her until the titles rolled.

    We ended up having a nice meal after at the Rabbit Hole in Durham.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,668

    DougSeal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Dopermean said:

    FPT ref DavidL's comments on juries

    1) "pull jurors out of a hat" - my experience is being sorted into groups of 16 at the beginning of the week but it could just be done by computer in a matter of seconds once the juror register is complete
    2) Judge briefing the Jury on their duties and responsibilities - apart from case specific issues this is boilerplate. Could be online with a little quiz and declaration, e.g. "If I do my own research on the internet" will I a) be better briefed than the legal counsel, b) be helping my fellow jurors to understand the case or c) do 6 months d) all of the above?
    3) Check in advance whether witnesses need screens and prepare. In your cases I assume it's a given, so the screens should be there by default.

    None of the above has to be on the critical path.

    My experience is that if you're assigned to a trial in the morning then it's 11.30am by the time you're sat down, HHJ does his solemn briefing etc, now 12, they have a brief conflab and decide that there isn't time for 2 opening addresses before lunch, "jury will only remember one side", so break. 2pm before you're back in court in the afternoon, if Judge or barristers don't have an afternoon clash.

    There are delays around sending Juries out and reassembling them, but they can just be sent to the next room rather than allowed to disperse.

    Juries can be taken off the critical path for most of it. Leveson has just blamed them for the inefficiency of the professionals involved.

    The court hours and all the wasted time etc are horrendous, all down to feathering lawyers and judges pockets.
    Yeah. We should abandon trial altogether. Waste of time.
    I suggest a leg of darts to decide guilt or innocence and then a roll of the dice for the length of sentence. Stream it on netflix with decent product placement and we could not just save a fortune but get some revenue in too.
    Nonsense.

    Instead of trial and prison - a TV show where the suspects are hunted by the public/professional hunters.

    If they are caught, they die. If they stay alive and free for 30 days, they get a cash prize.

    Turn justice into a profit centre, with popular participation.
    My prevously mentioned suggestion was to put them all on an island with vast amounts of weapons. Last man standing gets the England manager job.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,886

    viewcode said:

    DougSeal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Dopermean said:

    FPT ref DavidL's comments on juries

    1) "pull jurors out of a hat" - my experience is being sorted into groups of 16 at the beginning of the week but it could just be done by computer in a matter of seconds once the juror register is complete
    2) Judge briefing the Jury on their duties and responsibilities - apart from case specific issues this is boilerplate. Could be online with a little quiz and declaration, e.g. "If I do my own research on the internet" will I a) be better briefed than the legal counsel, b) be helping my fellow jurors to understand the case or c) do 6 months d) all of the above?
    3) Check in advance whether witnesses need screens and prepare. In your cases I assume it's a given, so the screens should be there by default.

    None of the above has to be on the critical path.

    My experience is that if you're assigned to a trial in the morning then it's 11.30am by the time you're sat down, HHJ does his solemn briefing etc, now 12, they have a brief conflab and decide that there isn't time for 2 opening addresses before lunch, "jury will only remember one side", so break. 2pm before you're back in court in the afternoon, if Judge or barristers don't have an afternoon clash.

    There are delays around sending Juries out and reassembling them, but they can just be sent to the next room rather than allowed to disperse.

    Juries can be taken off the critical path for most of it. Leveson has just blamed them for the inefficiency of the professionals involved.

    The court hours and all the wasted time etc are horrendous, all down to feathering lawyers and judges pockets.
    Yeah. We should abandon trial altogether. Waste of time.
    I suggest a leg of darts to decide guilt or innocence and then a roll of the dice for the length of sentence. Stream it on netflix with decent product placement and we could not just save a fortune but get some revenue in too.
    Nonsense.

    Instead of trial and prison - a TV show where the suspects are hunted by the public/professional hunters.

    If they are caught, they die. If they stay alive and free for 30 days, they get a cash prize.

    Turn justice into a profit centre, with popular participation.
    I prefer the "wall-off-Manhattan-and-never-let-them-out" option myself.
    Waste of valuable real estate

    If you want to do that use a random island in the Pacific
    (mutters quietly: "the link doesn't work")
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 36,144
    kle4 said:

    Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure.

    You may not like it, that's fair enough, but it's a clear, objective, and widely used measure. Hardly something to criticise BBC Verify for.

    Out of interest what would you propose as the measure of poverty? Does a child need to be starving, in rags, no shoes?
    It is not legitimate. Using a relative measure means someone can be perfectly well-off but because others are even better off the former are deemed to be 'poor'. And if those even better off suddenly have a great downturn in fortune then the previously 'poor' magically becomes 'wealthy' despite having no extra money whatsoever.

    An absolute measure is fairer.
    Yep. Relative poverty is NOT a measure of individual circumstance, it is a measure of inequality. The left love it. Absolute poverty is whether you can heat your house, eat food etc. The almost universal adoption of relative poverty has not helped.
    I can see it having some utility as a measure, but it is reported on as if it is like absolute poverty, which I think confuses what is being talked about as they are not the same thing and one is more vital a concern than the other.
    I don't disagree with this but the conversation started with @Morris_Dancer: "Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure."

    My point is that 'relative poverty' is not a 'bullshit measure', it's just one that MD doesn't like. No reason to criticise BBC Verify for using it.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,166

    Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure.

    You may not like it, that's fair enough, but it's a clear, objective, and widely used measure. Hardly something to criticise BBC Verify for.

    Out of interest what would you propose as the measure of poverty? Does a child need to be starving, in rags, no shoes?
    It is not legitimate. Using a relative measure means someone can be perfectly well-off but because others are even better off the former are deemed to be 'poor'. And if those even better off suddenly have a great downturn in fortune then the previously 'poor' magically becomes 'wealthy' despite having no extra money whatsoever.

    An absolute measure is fairer.
    Relativity is important though. Take a person with an average standard living in olden times and transport them to today. Once they'd got over the shock and had the time to acclimatise they'd realise they were no longer doing ok because almost everybody else was better off. They'd have become poor, wouldn't they?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,905

    Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure.

    You may not like it, that's fair enough, but it's a clear, objective, and widely used measure. Hardly something to criticise BBC Verify for.

    Out of interest what would you propose as the measure of poverty? Does a child need to be starving, in rags, no shoes?
    When we interrogate our idea of poverty it is always a relative concept at its core, because poverty is ultimately about being excluded from the normal patterns of consumption and participation in our current society. In my view it is so-called 'absolute' poverty measures that are bullshit.
    Not being able to 'keep up with the Joneses' in a neighbourhood pissing contest doesn't make someone poor. It makes them unable to afford an unnecessary and 'fashionable' splurging of cash you don't have on things you don't need. And the idea that should be subsidised by the taxpayer is just another tier in the cake of relative poverty bullshit.

    Edited: as an aside, I'll be AFK for the Budget, which is a shame but needs must.
    It's not about keeping up with Jones's. The point is that what we might consider an absolute poverty line now would be very different to the absolute poverty line 50 years ago, because we have different expectations about what constitutes a minimum standard of living, and these expectations are related to what we consider a normal standard of living. This is why I find the idea of some kind of objective and immutable poverty line fundamentally dishonest.
    As always it depends on what is done with the concept. Relative and absolute poverty are clearly different ideas. Relative poverty has the property of being more or less by definition ineradicable. Absolute poverty has the property of being a quantity of immiseration which is unacceptable when encountered, especially in children.

    Damage is done by leftists who elide relative poverty into something self evidently bad, when it is not self evident. Rightists do harm by insisting the real measure should be more like absolute poverty, which we should not contemplate for anyone. Imprecision and ambiguity is the permanent friend of lobbyists.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,593

    Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure.

    You may not like it, that's fair enough, but it's a clear, objective, and widely used measure. Hardly something to criticise BBC Verify for.

    Out of interest what would you propose as the measure of poverty? Does a child need to be starving, in rags, no shoes?
    It is not legitimate. Using a relative measure means someone can be perfectly well-off but because others are even better off the former are deemed to be 'poor'. And if those even better off suddenly have a great downturn in fortune then the previously 'poor' magically becomes 'wealthy' despite having no extra money whatsoever.

    An absolute measure is fairer.
    An absolute measure at what level?
    Surely it wouldn't be beyond the whit of man to find a standardised measurement of what we think people should be able to afford to achieve a basic standard of living, and then link it to the ONS "basket of goods" inflation measure or similar?

    A good part of the problem (at least from a technical point of view) is that the driver (or otherwise) of poverty is housing cost. My children may well be technically below the "child poverty" line based on income, but as we own our house mortgage free, and don't have tastes in things like cars, in reality we can live like kings.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,204
    kinabalu said:

    Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure.

    You may not like it, that's fair enough, but it's a clear, objective, and widely used measure. Hardly something to criticise BBC Verify for.

    Out of interest what would you propose as the measure of poverty? Does a child need to be starving, in rags, no shoes?
    It is not legitimate. Using a relative measure means someone can be perfectly well-off but because others are even better off the former are deemed to be 'poor'. And if those even better off suddenly have a great downturn in fortune then the previously 'poor' magically becomes 'wealthy' despite having no extra money whatsoever.

    An absolute measure is fairer.
    Relativity is important though. Take a person with an average standard living in olden times and transport them to today. Once they'd got over the shock and had the time to acclimatise they'd realise they were no longer doing ok because almost everybody else was better off. They'd have become poor, wouldn't they?
    If they were below the absolute poverty line they would be ;)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,785

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Dopermean said:

    FPT ref DavidL's comments on juries

    1) "pull jurors out of a hat" - my experience is being sorted into groups of 16 at the beginning of the week but it could just be done by computer in a matter of seconds once the juror register is complete
    2) Judge briefing the Jury on their duties and responsibilities - apart from case specific issues this is boilerplate. Could be online with a little quiz and declaration, e.g. "If I do my own research on the internet" will I a) be better briefed than the legal counsel, b) be helping my fellow jurors to understand the case or c) do 6 months d) all of the above?
    3) Check in advance whether witnesses need screens and prepare. In your cases I assume it's a given, so the screens should be there by default.

    None of the above has to be on the critical path.

    My experience is that if you're assigned to a trial in the morning then it's 11.30am by the time you're sat down, HHJ does his solemn briefing etc, now 12, they have a brief conflab and decide that there isn't time for 2 opening addresses before lunch, "jury will only remember one side", so break. 2pm before you're back in court in the afternoon, if Judge or barristers don't have an afternoon clash.

    There are delays around sending Juries out and reassembling them, but they can just be sent to the next room rather than allowed to disperse.

    Juries can be taken off the critical path for most of it. Leveson has just blamed them for the inefficiency of the professionals involved.

    There is no way 2 would work - most people will just fast forward the video or put it on and do something else
    Have all the jury prep etc run by court staff. The day before.

    Have jury prep as a courthouse function, run by staff. As a continual operation. Lining up juries, get them sorted, warned, lanyarded.

    So 9am, the judge, lawyers, etc all roll in together.

    Judge can have the option to say - “I don’t look this jury, do you have a similar one? But in a shade of mauve?”
    You're right, of course you're right, but you know the objections.

    Spending a bit more to get a lot more is still spending more, and we've conditioned ourselves to not want that.

    It's moving spending from frontline staff to backstage. And we've massively conditioned ourselves to not want that.
    Yet again on pb the most vociferous criticism of the removal of jury trials comes from the very same people who want to massively cut public spending and reduce public sector pay and benefits dramatically.

    The concept of we only get what we are willing to pay for seems to have completely passed them by.
    I have no idea if this is true, but it is rational for opinions to come in related sets, and opinions which don't arise in related ways lack an underlying coherence. Rather than turning the point into a meaningless (and maybe unverified) piece of ad hominem, it would be more useful to examine the relation of the set of opinions, and consider its worth.

    What is irrational about wanting to have a much smaller state while keeping the jury system? We had juries when we had a much smaller state. (I am not proposing either, personally, but there is nothing counter intuitive about it.)

    The frustration is the party led by this group of people have been in power most of my lifetime, and to be fair match the views of the electorate in not wanting to increase taxes.

    So we have court rooms out of use because of leaks, because we don't want to spend money.
    We have a lack of lawyers and judges, because we don't want to spend money.
    Our prisons can't cope, because we don't want to spend money.
    Prisoners come out early, without any thought of rehabilitation and commit more crime.

    Whilst I would prefer jury trials and functioning prisons myself, it does grate to hear the attacks on the status quo from the supporters of the establishment party with zero consideration of how we get here, or any serious thought on how we can change course and what resources that requires.
    Except for a very short time under Mrs T, public expenditure has risen throughout the last decades. The state in various forms manages 44% of total expenditure, over £40,000 per household, just a little short of the highest in Europe and in the middle of the developed pack. Despite that there is not a single area not crying out for much more spending. Something is wrong with the model, but it isn't that taxes are very significantly too low.
    We have no money

    Yet we are spending £700 million on saving a handful of salmon. Billions on an armoured vehicle that literally makes the occupants chronically ill. We can’t find GPs, while we train GPs who can’t get jobs. We have no money to look after children with special needs, but councils are block booking taxis to send them to school - as opposed to a school bus.

    It’s feast-or-famine mode spending. Often on insane things.
    This is the fault of the Treasury - insane budget rules where we seem to look at today and don't worry about tomorrow. The GP issue is a perfect example - we can't afford to hire them full time, but we can afford emergency cover. Or transport - can't afford a bus but can afford emergency cover.

    Do you get it yet? We cut because the Treasury says we must cut. But cuts to provision do not remove the need - which remains. And emergency provision must be done - from a separate budget - which costs more than the cut.

    I keep saying we need to invest in this stuff and be told we have no money. We do - we're literally burning it. Will need a short transition where we both burn cash and invest cash, but then no more bonfires.
    This post hits so hard. It seems like Westminster and Whitehall know it too, but won't do anything.
    I am utterly fucking sick of this stupidity. Its as bad up here as well. Winter snot season - schools asking parents to send their kids in with tissues as the school is running out. Teachers joking about wanting classroom supplies for presents from their kids instead of sweeties. There's literally no money at the front line - but we have schools with heating stuck on full so that everyone melts and windows need to keep being opened (in the summer as well!) because budget rules don't allow repairs when the school is scheduled for replacement in 2019.

    Bureaucrats drown in the micro whilst missing the macro and strategic. You can't the detail because the structure is wrong, but you can't spend money on the structure because you're spending too much money in emergency micro fixes.

    House building. Everyone agrees we need to build more houses but we're building less. Why?
    Land banking by developers
    Arcane endless planning regulations
    Housing Associations starved of resources
    A comprehensive lack of builders sparkies joiners plumbers plasterers etc etc - oh and we'd have to import much of the materiel because we've stopped making them because lack of money.
    But we can't import as we left the EU and they cost more. And we don't like all these forrin workers taking jobs from the untrained unwilling flag shagging fucks.

    FFS. Start at the strategic. OK, we need to build 1.5m houses the fuck yesterday.
    So we need to train the people who will build them. FE colleges here is cash. And a marketing campaign to make building cool
    We need to invest in a brickworks and other stuff - tax incentives to get manufacturing here
    We need to allow LHAs to borrow to build
    We need to bonfire the planning barriers
    We need to give the land bankers 6 months to start or lose the land
    All to build a flood of apartments and starter homes at a social rent as never for sale. Which allows a significant drop in % of wages wasted on rent which allows more money to circulate in the economy which means jobs and more taxes which pays back the investment in skills etc

    Will get any of that? Will we bollocks.
    Does anyone have any idea of the real cost to the country of the post-Grenfell building regulations ?

    A minor example:

    How much does it cost to replace two rotting windows in Britain in 2025?
    More than you might think
    https://www.samdumitriu.com/p/how-much-does-it-cost-to-replace
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,714
    HYUFD said:

    Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure.

    You may not like it, that's fair enough, but it's a clear, objective, and widely used measure. Hardly something to criticise BBC Verify for.

    Out of interest what would you propose as the measure of poverty? Does a child need to be starving, in rags, no shoes?
    It is not legitimate. Using a relative measure means someone can be perfectly well-off but because others are even better off the former are deemed to be 'poor'. And if those even better off suddenly have a great downturn in fortune then the previously 'poor' magically becomes 'wealthy' despite having no extra money whatsoever.

    An absolute measure is fairer.
    An absolute measure at what level?
    Enough to meet essentials, with a small amount left over for minor luxuries (meals out, cinema etc) and modest saving.
    Closer but still relative not absolute poverty.

    Absolute poverty is not having a roof over your head, not having enough food and not having enough to drink and not having enough clothing, especially to keep you warm in winter
    Absolute pov is not having a mobile. Just try functioning without one.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,494
    So much relativism about relative poverty.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,935
    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I am going out to lunch at a pub overlooking the estuary, while I still have the money to afford it.

    The existence of jury trials is NOT the reason for court delays. The reasons are:

    1. Reducing court sitting days even though the Lady Chief Justice has said judges can sit for more days so there is no lack of availability.
    2. Closure and selling of courts.
    3. A lack of sufficient funding for the justice system at every level.

    1 and 2 are easily remediable. You do not abolish an 800 year old fundamental principle because of a lack of short-term funding. Unless you're an illiberal cretin, that is.

    This is a power grab by the state of one of the few areas in British life which really is democratic, generally - though not invariably - works well and, crucially, is not controlled by the state and cannot be pressured by it. And can tell the state to get stuffed when it overreaches eg Ponting, the Colston Four. That is why authoritarians hate it and want to get rid of it. It must be resisted by all possible means.

    This proposal shows how much contempt Labour has for us and our liberties.

    Was Colston overreach? Not everyone agrees that its ok to vandalise things you don't like. I'd have preferred them found guilty but with a minimum penalty. I.e. they did the crime, but we understand and sympathise with why.
    Indeed see also the Labour councillor who was acquitted of hate speech. I support juries overall but when they render not guilty verdicts for political reasons rather than on the law the case for judge led verdicts in middle ranked offences grows. The escort rider who killed an elderly lady crossing the road at speed escorting the Duchess of Edinburgh might also have been convicted of death by careless driving by a judge which a jury acquitted him of
    Driving offences is an area where trial by jury is failing the victims, pick any 12 random people and there's probably 2 or 3 who think it's normal to text and speed.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 13,066
    This is an aspect of lawyering that means that, in many disciplines like family and criminal, we might not have any lawyers left soon.

    https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/family-hearing-abandoned-over-fathers-death-threats-to-barrister/5125225.article

    I remember a lecturer at a (compulsory) criminal law class at law school asking those who were going on to practice it to put there hands up. No one did. That was in 1997/98. The number of criminal lawyers must therefore be a negative now.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,905

    kle4 said:

    Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure.

    You may not like it, that's fair enough, but it's a clear, objective, and widely used measure. Hardly something to criticise BBC Verify for.

    Out of interest what would you propose as the measure of poverty? Does a child need to be starving, in rags, no shoes?
    It is not legitimate. Using a relative measure means someone can be perfectly well-off but because others are even better off the former are deemed to be 'poor'. And if those even better off suddenly have a great downturn in fortune then the previously 'poor' magically becomes 'wealthy' despite having no extra money whatsoever.

    An absolute measure is fairer.
    Yep. Relative poverty is NOT a measure of individual circumstance, it is a measure of inequality. The left love it. Absolute poverty is whether you can heat your house, eat food etc. The almost universal adoption of relative poverty has not helped.
    I can see it having some utility as a measure, but it is reported on as if it is like absolute poverty, which I think confuses what is being talked about as they are not the same thing and one is more vital a concern than the other.
    I don't disagree with this but the conversation started with @Morris_Dancer: "Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure."

    My point is that 'relative poverty' is not a 'bullshit measure', it's just one that MD doesn't like. No reason to criticise BBC Verify for using it.
    It doesn't matter much what measure you use, as long as you are clear you are using it and what it actually means. Eg use of 'relative poverty' really needs to explain that there is nothing necessarily wrong with being in 'relative poverty' and it is not obvious that anyone should do anything about it.

    (Even though I think we should!)

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,981
    Paul Doyle changes his to plea to guilty.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,180
    Dopermean said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I am going out to lunch at a pub overlooking the estuary, while I still have the money to afford it.

    The existence of jury trials is NOT the reason for court delays. The reasons are:

    1. Reducing court sitting days even though the Lady Chief Justice has said judges can sit for more days so there is no lack of availability.
    2. Closure and selling of courts.
    3. A lack of sufficient funding for the justice system at every level.

    1 and 2 are easily remediable. You do not abolish an 800 year old fundamental principle because of a lack of short-term funding. Unless you're an illiberal cretin, that is.

    This is a power grab by the state of one of the few areas in British life which really is democratic, generally - though not invariably - works well and, crucially, is not controlled by the state and cannot be pressured by it. And can tell the state to get stuffed when it overreaches eg Ponting, the Colston Four. That is why authoritarians hate it and want to get rid of it. It must be resisted by all possible means.

    This proposal shows how much contempt Labour has for us and our liberties.

    Was Colston overreach? Not everyone agrees that its ok to vandalise things you don't like. I'd have preferred them found guilty but with a minimum penalty. I.e. they did the crime, but we understand and sympathise with why.
    Indeed see also the Labour councillor who was acquitted of hate speech. I support juries overall but when they render not guilty verdicts for political reasons rather than on the law the case for judge led verdicts in middle ranked offences grows. The escort rider who killed an elderly lady crossing the road at speed escorting the Duchess of Edinburgh might also have been convicted of death by careless driving by a judge which a jury acquitted him of
    Driving offences is an area where trial by jury is failing the victims, pick any 12 random people and there's probably 2 or 3 who think it's normal to text and speed.
    If the public at large think that people should be able to text and speed and that this is just an inherent risk of life, then that’s the jury system working as intended.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,329

    Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure.

    You may not like it, that's fair enough, but it's a clear, objective, and widely used measure. Hardly something to criticise BBC Verify for.

    Out of interest what would you propose as the measure of poverty? Does a child need to be starving, in rags, no shoes?
    When we interrogate our idea of poverty it is always a relative concept at its core, because poverty is ultimately about being excluded from the normal patterns of consumption and participation in our current society. In my view it is so-called 'absolute' poverty measures that are bullshit.
    Not being able to 'keep up with the Joneses' in a neighbourhood pissing contest doesn't make someone poor. It makes them unable to afford an unnecessary and 'fashionable' splurging of cash you don't have on things you don't need. And the idea that should be subsidised by the taxpayer is just another tier in the cake of relative poverty bullshit.

    Edited: as an aside, I'll be AFK for the Budget, which is a shame but needs must.
    It's not about keeping up with Jones's. The point is that what we might consider an absolute poverty line now would be very different to the absolute poverty line 50 years ago, because we have different expectations about what constitutes a minimum standard of living, and these expectations are related to what we consider a normal standard of living. This is why I find the idea of some kind of objective and immutable poverty line fundamentally dishonest.
    Nobody said the absolute poverty line should never be changed.

    Edited: On Jones: you said earlier "...because poverty is ultimately about being excluded from the normal patterns of consumption and participation in our current society....."
    I associate "keeping up with the Joneses" with having the latest fashionable things or status goods, not with being able to sustain something close to a normal, basic kind of standard of living.
    Of course the absolute poverty line has to be changed, as the normal standard of living changes... in other words it becomes a relative measure.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,180
    DougSeal said:

    This is an aspect of lawyering that means that, in many disciplines like family and criminal, we might not have any lawyers left soon.

    https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/family-hearing-abandoned-over-fathers-death-threats-to-barrister/5125225.article

    I remember a lecturer at a (compulsory) criminal law class at law school asking those who were going on to practice it to put there hands up. No one did. That was in 1997/98. The number of criminal lawyers must therefore be a negative now.

    I spent days writing a training contract application with the CPS in Newcastle only for Newcastle to be removed as a location at the last minute before the deadline. 🤷‍♂️
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,765
    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    DougSeal said:

    malcolmg said:

    Dopermean said:

    FPT ref DavidL's comments on juries

    1) "pull jurors out of a hat" - my experience is being sorted into groups of 16 at the beginning of the week but it could just be done by computer in a matter of seconds once the juror register is complete
    2) Judge briefing the Jury on their duties and responsibilities - apart from case specific issues this is boilerplate. Could be online with a little quiz and declaration, e.g. "If I do my own research on the internet" will I a) be better briefed than the legal counsel, b) be helping my fellow jurors to understand the case or c) do 6 months d) all of the above?
    3) Check in advance whether witnesses need screens and prepare. In your cases I assume it's a given, so the screens should be there by default.

    None of the above has to be on the critical path.

    My experience is that if you're assigned to a trial in the morning then it's 11.30am by the time you're sat down, HHJ does his solemn briefing etc, now 12, they have a brief conflab and decide that there isn't time for 2 opening addresses before lunch, "jury will only remember one side", so break. 2pm before you're back in court in the afternoon, if Judge or barristers don't have an afternoon clash.

    There are delays around sending Juries out and reassembling them, but they can just be sent to the next room rather than allowed to disperse.

    Juries can be taken off the critical path for most of it. Leveson has just blamed them for the inefficiency of the professionals involved.

    The court hours and all the wasted time etc are horrendous, all down to feathering lawyers and judges pockets.
    Yeah. We should abandon trial altogether. Waste of time.
    I suggest a leg of darts to decide guilt or innocence and then a roll of the dice for the length of sentence. Stream it on netflix with decent product placement and we could not just save a fortune but get some revenue in too.
    Nonsense.

    Instead of trial and prison - a TV show where the suspects are hunted by the public/professional hunters.

    If they are caught, they die. If they stay alive and free for 30 days, they get a cash prize.

    Turn justice into a profit centre, with popular participation.
    I prefer the "wall-off-Manhattan-and-never-let-them-out" option myself.
    Waste of valuable real estate

    If you want to do that use a random island in the Pacific
    (mutters quietly: "the link doesn't work")
    https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0110678/
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,166

    kinabalu said:

    Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure.

    You may not like it, that's fair enough, but it's a clear, objective, and widely used measure. Hardly something to criticise BBC Verify for.

    Out of interest what would you propose as the measure of poverty? Does a child need to be starving, in rags, no shoes?
    It is not legitimate. Using a relative measure means someone can be perfectly well-off but because others are even better off the former are deemed to be 'poor'. And if those even better off suddenly have a great downturn in fortune then the previously 'poor' magically becomes 'wealthy' despite having no extra money whatsoever.

    An absolute measure is fairer.
    Relativity is important though. Take a person with an average standard living in olden times and transport them to today. Once they'd got over the shock and had the time to acclimatise they'd realise they were no longer doing ok because almost everybody else was better off. They'd have become poor, wouldn't they?
    If they were below the absolute poverty line they would be ;)
    But regardless they'd have become poorER, wouldn't they? - ie relativity is meaningful.
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,596

    Taz said:

    Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure.

    You may not like it, that's fair enough, but it's a clear, objective, and widely used measure. Hardly something to criticise BBC Verify for.

    Out of interest what would you propose as the measure of poverty? Does a child need to be starving, in rags, no shoes?
    It is not legitimate. Using a relative measure means someone can be perfectly well-off but because others are even better off the former are deemed to be 'poor'. And if those even better off suddenly have a great downturn in fortune then the previously 'poor' magically becomes 'wealthy' despite having no extra money whatsoever.

    An absolute measure is fairer.
    Yep. Relative poverty is NOT a measure of individual circumstance, it is a measure of inequality. The left love it. Absolute poverty is whether you can heat your house, eat food etc. The almost universal adoption of relative poverty has not helped.
    So should someone win 150 million on the euro millions relative poverty increases slightly although no one is materially worse off ?
    Stupid point but even then it's not really true. Where did that 150 million come from?

    But how about sharing us what your definition of poverty would be?

    @Morris_Dancer's was rather generous imo, including as it did "a small amount left over for minor luxuries (meals out, cinema etc) and modest saving". Try doing that on £80 per week, even if your full rent is separately covered (for most it isn't).
    It’s not a ‘stupid point’ it’s a question. Hence the question mark old chap 😘

    I don’t have a definition and am not overly invested in one, just think ‘relative’ poverty makes no sense although I will take lectures on poverty from someone building a massive house with a load of. land in Dorset.😉
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,596
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Talking of Russian, whatever happened to Dura Ace?

    Did he not say he was off on an extended project somewhere?
    At least it wasn't a three-day special operation that could keep him away for years.
    Late of this parish
    Sorry, replied to the wrong question
    Presume that was meant for me about Stuart Dickson.

    Glad he’s not with the angels.

    👍
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,765
    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Dopermean said:

    FPT ref DavidL's comments on juries

    1) "pull jurors out of a hat" - my experience is being sorted into groups of 16 at the beginning of the week but it could just be done by computer in a matter of seconds once the juror register is complete
    2) Judge briefing the Jury on their duties and responsibilities - apart from case specific issues this is boilerplate. Could be online with a little quiz and declaration, e.g. "If I do my own research on the internet" will I a) be better briefed than the legal counsel, b) be helping my fellow jurors to understand the case or c) do 6 months d) all of the above?
    3) Check in advance whether witnesses need screens and prepare. In your cases I assume it's a given, so the screens should be there by default.

    None of the above has to be on the critical path.

    My experience is that if you're assigned to a trial in the morning then it's 11.30am by the time you're sat down, HHJ does his solemn briefing etc, now 12, they have a brief conflab and decide that there isn't time for 2 opening addresses before lunch, "jury will only remember one side", so break. 2pm before you're back in court in the afternoon, if Judge or barristers don't have an afternoon clash.

    There are delays around sending Juries out and reassembling them, but they can just be sent to the next room rather than allowed to disperse.

    Juries can be taken off the critical path for most of it. Leveson has just blamed them for the inefficiency of the professionals involved.

    There is no way 2 would work - most people will just fast forward the video or put it on and do something else
    Have all the jury prep etc run by court staff. The day before.

    Have jury prep as a courthouse function, run by staff. As a continual operation. Lining up juries, get them sorted, warned, lanyarded.

    So 9am, the judge, lawyers, etc all roll in together.

    Judge can have the option to say - “I don’t look this jury, do you have a similar one? But in a shade of mauve?”
    You're right, of course you're right, but you know the objections.

    Spending a bit more to get a lot more is still spending more, and we've conditioned ourselves to not want that.

    It's moving spending from frontline staff to backstage. And we've massively conditioned ourselves to not want that.
    Yet again on pb the most vociferous criticism of the removal of jury trials comes from the very same people who want to massively cut public spending and reduce public sector pay and benefits dramatically.

    The concept of we only get what we are willing to pay for seems to have completely passed them by.
    I have no idea if this is true, but it is rational for opinions to come in related sets, and opinions which don't arise in related ways lack an underlying coherence. Rather than turning the point into a meaningless (and maybe unverified) piece of ad hominem, it would be more useful to examine the relation of the set of opinions, and consider its worth.

    What is irrational about wanting to have a much smaller state while keeping the jury system? We had juries when we had a much smaller state. (I am not proposing either, personally, but there is nothing counter intuitive about it.)

    The frustration is the party led by this group of people have been in power most of my lifetime, and to be fair match the views of the electorate in not wanting to increase taxes.

    So we have court rooms out of use because of leaks, because we don't want to spend money.
    We have a lack of lawyers and judges, because we don't want to spend money.
    Our prisons can't cope, because we don't want to spend money.
    Prisoners come out early, without any thought of rehabilitation and commit more crime.

    Whilst I would prefer jury trials and functioning prisons myself, it does grate to hear the attacks on the status quo from the supporters of the establishment party with zero consideration of how we get here, or any serious thought on how we can change course and what resources that requires.
    Except for a very short time under Mrs T, public expenditure has risen throughout the last decades. The state in various forms manages 44% of total expenditure, over £40,000 per household, just a little short of the highest in Europe and in the middle of the developed pack. Despite that there is not a single area not crying out for much more spending. Something is wrong with the model, but it isn't that taxes are very significantly too low.
    We have no money

    Yet we are spending £700 million on saving a handful of salmon. Billions on an armoured vehicle that literally makes the occupants chronically ill. We can’t find GPs, while we train GPs who can’t get jobs. We have no money to look after children with special needs, but councils are block booking taxis to send them to school - as opposed to a school bus.

    It’s feast-or-famine mode spending. Often on insane things.
    This is the fault of the Treasury - insane budget rules where we seem to look at today and don't worry about tomorrow. The GP issue is a perfect example - we can't afford to hire them full time, but we can afford emergency cover. Or transport - can't afford a bus but can afford emergency cover.

    Do you get it yet? We cut because the Treasury says we must cut. But cuts to provision do not remove the need - which remains. And emergency provision must be done - from a separate budget - which costs more than the cut.

    I keep saying we need to invest in this stuff and be told we have no money. We do - we're literally burning it. Will need a short transition where we both burn cash and invest cash, but then no more bonfires.
    This post hits so hard. It seems like Westminster and Whitehall know it too, but won't do anything.
    I am utterly fucking sick of this stupidity. Its as bad up here as well. Winter snot season - schools asking parents to send their kids in with tissues as the school is running out. Teachers joking about wanting classroom supplies for presents from their kids instead of sweeties. There's literally no money at the front line - but we have schools with heating stuck on full so that everyone melts and windows need to keep being opened (in the summer as well!) because budget rules don't allow repairs when the school is scheduled for replacement in 2019.

    Bureaucrats drown in the micro whilst missing the macro and strategic. You can't the detail because the structure is wrong, but you can't spend money on the structure because you're spending too much money in emergency micro fixes.

    House building. Everyone agrees we need to build more houses but we're building less. Why?
    Land banking by developers
    Arcane endless planning regulations
    Housing Associations starved of resources
    A comprehensive lack of builders sparkies joiners plumbers plasterers etc etc - oh and we'd have to import much of the materiel because we've stopped making them because lack of money.
    But we can't import as we left the EU and they cost more. And we don't like all these forrin workers taking jobs from the untrained unwilling flag shagging fucks.

    FFS. Start at the strategic. OK, we need to build 1.5m houses the fuck yesterday.
    So we need to train the people who will build them. FE colleges here is cash. And a marketing campaign to make building cool
    We need to invest in a brickworks and other stuff - tax incentives to get manufacturing here
    We need to allow LHAs to borrow to build
    We need to bonfire the planning barriers
    We need to give the land bankers 6 months to start or lose the land
    All to build a flood of apartments and starter homes at a social rent as never for sale. Which allows a significant drop in % of wages wasted on rent which allows more money to circulate in the economy which means jobs and more taxes which pays back the investment in skills etc

    Will get any of that? Will we bollocks.
    Does anyone have any idea of the real cost to the country of the post-Grenfell building regulations ?

    A minor example:

    How much does it cost to replace two rotting windows in Britain in 2025?
    More than you might think
    https://www.samdumitriu.com/p/how-much-does-it-cost-to-replace
    But if we don’t triple the cost of replacing windows, by needing plan application consultants, because the forms are so complex… how will the consultants eat?

    Plus it will breach international law, human rights law, law of the sea, NATO, SEATO….
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,494
    edited 11:39AM
    algarkirk said:

    Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure.

    You may not like it, that's fair enough, but it's a clear, objective, and widely used measure. Hardly something to criticise BBC Verify for.

    Out of interest what would you propose as the measure of poverty? Does a child need to be starving, in rags, no shoes?
    When we interrogate our idea of poverty it is always a relative concept at its core, because poverty is ultimately about being excluded from the normal patterns of consumption and participation in our current society. In my view it is so-called 'absolute' poverty measures that are bullshit.
    Not being able to 'keep up with the Joneses' in a neighbourhood pissing contest doesn't make someone poor. It makes them unable to afford an unnecessary and 'fashionable' splurging of cash you don't have on things you don't need. And the idea that should be subsidised by the taxpayer is just another tier in the cake of relative poverty bullshit.

    Edited: as an aside, I'll be AFK for the Budget, which is a shame but needs must.
    It's not about keeping up with Jones's. The point is that what we might consider an absolute poverty line now would be very different to the absolute poverty line 50 years ago, because we have different expectations about what constitutes a minimum standard of living, and these expectations are related to what we consider a normal standard of living. This is why I find the idea of some kind of objective and immutable poverty line fundamentally dishonest.
    As always it depends on what is done with the concept. Relative and absolute poverty are clearly different ideas. Relative poverty has the property of being more or less by definition ineradicable. Absolute poverty has the property of being a quantity of immiseration which is unacceptable when encountered, especially in children.

    Damage is done by leftists who elide relative poverty into something self evidently bad, when it is not self evident. Rightists do harm by insisting the real measure should be more like absolute poverty, which we should not contemplate for anyone. Imprecision and ambiguity is the permanent friend of lobbyists.
    Relative poverty and absolute poverty numbers map to actual numbers under official definitions.

    The proportion of children living in absolute poverty has increased in recent years in part because of the two child cap. That measure doesn't take into account rising prosperity in society.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 13,066

    DougSeal said:

    This is an aspect of lawyering that means that, in many disciplines like family and criminal, we might not have any lawyers left soon.

    https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/family-hearing-abandoned-over-fathers-death-threats-to-barrister/5125225.article

    I remember a lecturer at a (compulsory) criminal law class at law school asking those who were going on to practice it to put there hands up. No one did. That was in 1997/98. The number of criminal lawyers must therefore be a negative now.

    I spent days writing a training contract application with the CPS in Newcastle only for Newcastle to be removed as a location at the last minute before the deadline. 🤷‍♂️
    That's shoddy of them.

    I once prepared a pitch at a trainee interview in the City saying how excited I was that the firm in question was going to be one of the first to open an office in Delhi as I'd spent my gap year there and loved it only to be told in the first 30 seconds that the Indian Bar had announced earlier that week that they were not going to allow foreign firms to practice there after all. I didn't get the job.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,329
    algarkirk said:

    Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure.

    You may not like it, that's fair enough, but it's a clear, objective, and widely used measure. Hardly something to criticise BBC Verify for.

    Out of interest what would you propose as the measure of poverty? Does a child need to be starving, in rags, no shoes?
    When we interrogate our idea of poverty it is always a relative concept at its core, because poverty is ultimately about being excluded from the normal patterns of consumption and participation in our current society. In my view it is so-called 'absolute' poverty measures that are bullshit.
    Not being able to 'keep up with the Joneses' in a neighbourhood pissing contest doesn't make someone poor. It makes them unable to afford an unnecessary and 'fashionable' splurging of cash you don't have on things you don't need. And the idea that should be subsidised by the taxpayer is just another tier in the cake of relative poverty bullshit.

    Edited: as an aside, I'll be AFK for the Budget, which is a shame but needs must.
    It's not about keeping up with Jones's. The point is that what we might consider an absolute poverty line now would be very different to the absolute poverty line 50 years ago, because we have different expectations about what constitutes a minimum standard of living, and these expectations are related to what we consider a normal standard of living. This is why I find the idea of some kind of objective and immutable poverty line fundamentally dishonest.
    As always it depends on what is done with the concept. Relative and absolute poverty are clearly different ideas. Relative poverty has the property of being more or less by definition ineradicable. Absolute poverty has the property of being a quantity of immiseration which is unacceptable when encountered, especially in children.

    Damage is done by leftists who elide relative poverty into something self evidently bad, when it is not self evident. Rightists do harm by insisting the real measure should be more like absolute poverty, which we should not contemplate for anyone. Imprecision and ambiguity is the permanent friend of lobbyists.
    If you define relative poverty as some fraction of median income then it needn't be ineradicable as long as the fraction is not too close to 1. This doesn't mean that we should necessarily seek to eradicate it - like any policy we should consider the balance of costs and benefits. Most likely the poor will always be with us.
    Personally I just think that people who advocate for 'absolute' poverty measures just haven't thought very deeply about what poverty really is or how we define it.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 31,458
    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Dopermean said:

    FPT ref DavidL's comments on juries

    1) "pull jurors out of a hat" - my experience is being sorted into groups of 16 at the beginning of the week but it could just be done by computer in a matter of seconds once the juror register is complete
    2) Judge briefing the Jury on their duties and responsibilities - apart from case specific issues this is boilerplate. Could be online with a little quiz and declaration, e.g. "If I do my own research on the internet" will I a) be better briefed than the legal counsel, b) be helping my fellow jurors to understand the case or c) do 6 months d) all of the above?
    3) Check in advance whether witnesses need screens and prepare. In your cases I assume it's a given, so the screens should be there by default.

    None of the above has to be on the critical path.

    My experience is that if you're assigned to a trial in the morning then it's 11.30am by the time you're sat down, HHJ does his solemn briefing etc, now 12, they have a brief conflab and decide that there isn't time for 2 opening addresses before lunch, "jury will only remember one side", so break. 2pm before you're back in court in the afternoon, if Judge or barristers don't have an afternoon clash.

    There are delays around sending Juries out and reassembling them, but they can just be sent to the next room rather than allowed to disperse.

    Juries can be taken off the critical path for most of it. Leveson has just blamed them for the inefficiency of the professionals involved.

    There is no way 2 would work - most people will just fast forward the video or put it on and do something else
    Have all the jury prep etc run by court staff. The day before.

    Have jury prep as a courthouse function, run by staff. As a continual operation. Lining up juries, get them sorted, warned, lanyarded.

    So 9am, the judge, lawyers, etc all roll in together.

    Judge can have the option to say - “I don’t look this jury, do you have a similar one? But in a shade of mauve?”
    You're right, of course you're right, but you know the objections.

    Spending a bit more to get a lot more is still spending more, and we've conditioned ourselves to not want that.

    It's moving spending from frontline staff to backstage. And we've massively conditioned ourselves to not want that.
    Yet again on pb the most vociferous criticism of the removal of jury trials comes from the very same people who want to massively cut public spending and reduce public sector pay and benefits dramatically.

    The concept of we only get what we are willing to pay for seems to have completely passed them by.
    I have no idea if this is true, but it is rational for opinions to come in related sets, and opinions which don't arise in related ways lack an underlying coherence. Rather than turning the point into a meaningless (and maybe unverified) piece of ad hominem, it would be more useful to examine the relation of the set of opinions, and consider its worth.

    What is irrational about wanting to have a much smaller state while keeping the jury system? We had juries when we had a much smaller state. (I am not proposing either, personally, but there is nothing counter intuitive about it.)

    The frustration is the party led by this group of people have been in power most of my lifetime, and to be fair match the views of the electorate in not wanting to increase taxes.

    So we have court rooms out of use because of leaks, because we don't want to spend money.
    We have a lack of lawyers and judges, because we don't want to spend money.
    Our prisons can't cope, because we don't want to spend money.
    Prisoners come out early, without any thought of rehabilitation and commit more crime.

    Whilst I would prefer jury trials and functioning prisons myself, it does grate to hear the attacks on the status quo from the supporters of the establishment party with zero consideration of how we get here, or any serious thought on how we can change course and what resources that requires.
    Except for a very short time under Mrs T, public expenditure has risen throughout the last decades. The state in various forms manages 44% of total expenditure, over £40,000 per household, just a little short of the highest in Europe and in the middle of the developed pack. Despite that there is not a single area not crying out for much more spending. Something is wrong with the model, but it isn't that taxes are very significantly too low.
    We have no money

    Yet we are spending £700 million on saving a handful of salmon. Billions on an armoured vehicle that literally makes the occupants chronically ill. We can’t find GPs, while we train GPs who can’t get jobs. We have no money to look after children with special needs, but councils are block booking taxis to send them to school - as opposed to a school bus.

    It’s feast-or-famine mode spending. Often on insane things.
    This is the fault of the Treasury - insane budget rules where we seem to look at today and don't worry about tomorrow. The GP issue is a perfect example - we can't afford to hire them full time, but we can afford emergency cover. Or transport - can't afford a bus but can afford emergency cover.

    Do you get it yet? We cut because the Treasury says we must cut. But cuts to provision do not remove the need - which remains. And emergency provision must be done - from a separate budget - which costs more than the cut.

    I keep saying we need to invest in this stuff and be told we have no money. We do - we're literally burning it. Will need a short transition where we both burn cash and invest cash, but then no more bonfires.
    This post hits so hard. It seems like Westminster and Whitehall know it too, but won't do anything.
    I am utterly fucking sick of this stupidity. Its as bad up here as well. Winter snot season - schools asking parents to send their kids in with tissues as the school is running out. Teachers joking about wanting classroom supplies for presents from their kids instead of sweeties. There's literally no money at the front line - but we have schools with heating stuck on full so that everyone melts and windows need to keep being opened (in the summer as well!) because budget rules don't allow repairs when the school is scheduled for replacement in 2019.

    Bureaucrats drown in the micro whilst missing the macro and strategic. You can't the detail because the structure is wrong, but you can't spend money on the structure because you're spending too much money in emergency micro fixes.

    House building. Everyone agrees we need to build more houses but we're building less. Why?
    Land banking by developers
    Arcane endless planning regulations
    Housing Associations starved of resources
    A comprehensive lack of builders sparkies joiners plumbers plasterers etc etc - oh and we'd have to import much of the materiel because we've stopped making them because lack of money.
    But we can't import as we left the EU and they cost more. And we don't like all these forrin workers taking jobs from the untrained unwilling flag shagging fucks.

    FFS. Start at the strategic. OK, we need to build 1.5m houses the fuck yesterday.
    So we need to train the people who will build them. FE colleges here is cash. And a marketing campaign to make building cool
    We need to invest in a brickworks and other stuff - tax incentives to get manufacturing here
    We need to allow LHAs to borrow to build
    We need to bonfire the planning barriers
    We need to give the land bankers 6 months to start or lose the land
    All to build a flood of apartments and starter homes at a social rent as never for sale. Which allows a significant drop in % of wages wasted on rent which allows more money to circulate in the economy which means jobs and more taxes which pays back the investment in skills etc

    Will get any of that? Will we bollocks.
    Does anyone have any idea of the real cost to the country of the post-Grenfell building regulations ?

    A minor example:

    How much does it cost to replace two rotting windows in Britain in 2025?
    More than you might think
    https://www.samdumitriu.com/p/how-much-does-it-cost-to-replace
    My house is 230 years old and listed - believe me I know the cost!

    Out front of the commercial part of the building is an iron fence which is literally rusted away in a few places. Really needs replacing, but the planning officer refused to consider a non-LFL alternative. Despite this fence not being original or actually part of the listing.

    So the plan is to literally let it rust away to nothing. I will keep repairing and repainting it. Until part of it breaks off then I'll be allowed to remove it because dangerous.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,785
    edited 11:40AM
    This is from the recent report on the nuclear industry regulation, but much of it applies more generally.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/692080f75c394e481336ab89/nuclear-regulatory-review-2025.pdf

    Some of the issues:
    This is a systemic problem that cannot be attributed to any single entity. The issues span regulators,
    government, and industry, creating a cycle of inefficiency, delay, and excessive cost. This is deeply
    rooted and embedded in the sector’s culture. Interconnected failures feed on each other, acting as
    bottlenecks that prevent the effective delivery of critical nuclear projects.
    The five primary regulatory problems are as follows:
    1) Fragmented Oversight: A single project faces multiple regulators, sometimes as
    many as six on a single defence project, with no single designated lead. This results in
    misalignment, inconsistency, and delay.
    2) Disproportionate Decisions: Regulators frequently make overly conservative and
    costly decisions that are not proportionate to the actual risk being managed.

    3) Flawed Legislation: Underlying laws and regulations prioritise process over outcomes,
    leading to time-consuming delays and suboptimal decisions.
    4) Government Indecision: Government departments are often slow and indecisive in
    their roles as policymakers and regulators, failing to provide clear direction.
    5) Weak Industry Incentives: The near-monopolistic status of much of the industry
    provides weak financial incentives to reduce costs or challenge disproportionate
    regulatory decisions...


    A recommended approach to reform:
    Simpler regulation can deliver safety at lower cost;

    Regulatory processes should not trump outcomes;

    A regulatory system must acknowledge trade-offs;
    ...etc


    There is a huge about in the report specific to the nuclear industry, but it is not hard to imagine a similar approach being taken towards housebuilding and general infrastructure construction.

    A recommended read for those with the time to do so.

    The idea that the report be litigated on the basis of breach of human rights, as has been suggested, rather than implemented in full with the greatest possible dispatch, seems completely nuts to me, and is a perfect example of the mindset which makes getting anything done in this country at least twice as expensive as it needs to be.
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,596
    I so hope this happens for the giggles. It will make the bedwetting over MK Dons seem trivial by comparison.


    ‘ Sheffield United’s American owners made an enquiry in the sale of rivals Sheffield Wednesday

    It’s believed they wanted to explore a merger between the two clubs ⚔️🇺🇸🦉

    Sickening stuff🤢🤮’


    https://x.com/the_forty_four/status/1993436096848707966?s=61
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,646
    edited 11:42AM
    algarkirk said:

    kle4 said:

    Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure.

    You may not like it, that's fair enough, but it's a clear, objective, and widely used measure. Hardly something to criticise BBC Verify for.

    Out of interest what would you propose as the measure of poverty? Does a child need to be starving, in rags, no shoes?
    It is not legitimate. Using a relative measure means someone can be perfectly well-off but because others are even better off the former are deemed to be 'poor'. And if those even better off suddenly have a great downturn in fortune then the previously 'poor' magically becomes 'wealthy' despite having no extra money whatsoever.

    An absolute measure is fairer.
    Yep. Relative poverty is NOT a measure of individual circumstance, it is a measure of inequality. The left love it. Absolute poverty is whether you can heat your house, eat food etc. The almost universal adoption of relative poverty has not helped.
    I can see it having some utility as a measure, but it is reported on as if it is like absolute poverty, which I think confuses what is being talked about as they are not the same thing and one is more vital a concern than the other.
    I don't disagree with this but the conversation started with @Morris_Dancer: "Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure."

    My point is that 'relative poverty' is not a 'bullshit measure', it's just one that MD doesn't like. No reason to criticise BBC Verify for using it.
    It doesn't matter much what measure you use, as long as you are clear you are using it and what it actually means. Eg use of 'relative poverty' really needs to explain that there is nothing necessarily wrong with being in 'relative poverty' and it is not obvious that anyone should do anything about it.

    (Even though I think we should!)

    The argument for why relative poverty matters is that the price of most things in the economy are set by aggregate demand - e.g. energy. You get some price differentiation like the value in range in Morrisons, but it's not enough to offset the effect.

    It's a bit academic - other measures like absolute or material deprivation, SIMD etc have significant overlap with relative poverty, so it works reasonably well as a measure. And absolute poverty is a construction anyway - it's based on relative poverty in 2010/11.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,950
    edited 11:43AM
    Lawyering, AI and rainbow flags in a couple of tweets. Presumably the poor soul was frightened by a bumless leather chaps wearing Pride marcher at an early age.

    https://x.com/peatworrier/status/1993329754791899420?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

    https://x.com/peatworrier/status/1993332238650577213?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,886
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure.

    You may not like it, that's fair enough, but it's a clear, objective, and widely used measure. Hardly something to criticise BBC Verify for.

    Out of interest what would you propose as the measure of poverty? Does a child need to be starving, in rags, no shoes?
    It is not legitimate. Using a relative measure means someone can be perfectly well-off but because others are even better off the former are deemed to be 'poor'. And if those even better off suddenly have a great downturn in fortune then the previously 'poor' magically becomes 'wealthy' despite having no extra money whatsoever.

    An absolute measure is fairer.
    An absolute measure at what level?
    Enough to meet essentials, with a small amount left over for minor luxuries (meals out, cinema etc) and modest saving.
    Closer but still relative not absolute poverty.

    Absolute poverty is not having a roof over your head, not having enough food and not having enough to drink and not having enough clothing, especially to keep you warm in winter
    Absolute pov is not having a mobile. Just try functioning without one.
    That's horribly true. Businesses and shops are increasingly reliant on apps: my bank gets very upset when I refuse to download their app, and my GP just sent my test results to me via a NHS account (I don't have one), so I don't know if I'm going blind or not. I am slightly annoyed by this. :(
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,785

    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Dopermean said:

    FPT ref DavidL's comments on juries

    1) "pull jurors out of a hat" - my experience is being sorted into groups of 16 at the beginning of the week but it could just be done by computer in a matter of seconds once the juror register is complete
    2) Judge briefing the Jury on their duties and responsibilities - apart from case specific issues this is boilerplate. Could be online with a little quiz and declaration, e.g. "If I do my own research on the internet" will I a) be better briefed than the legal counsel, b) be helping my fellow jurors to understand the case or c) do 6 months d) all of the above?
    3) Check in advance whether witnesses need screens and prepare. In your cases I assume it's a given, so the screens should be there by default.

    None of the above has to be on the critical path.

    My experience is that if you're assigned to a trial in the morning then it's 11.30am by the time you're sat down, HHJ does his solemn briefing etc, now 12, they have a brief conflab and decide that there isn't time for 2 opening addresses before lunch, "jury will only remember one side", so break. 2pm before you're back in court in the afternoon, if Judge or barristers don't have an afternoon clash.

    There are delays around sending Juries out and reassembling them, but they can just be sent to the next room rather than allowed to disperse.

    Juries can be taken off the critical path for most of it. Leveson has just blamed them for the inefficiency of the professionals involved.

    There is no way 2 would work - most people will just fast forward the video or put it on and do something else
    Have all the jury prep etc run by court staff. The day before.

    Have jury prep as a courthouse function, run by staff. As a continual operation. Lining up juries, get them sorted, warned, lanyarded.

    So 9am, the judge, lawyers, etc all roll in together.

    Judge can have the option to say - “I don’t look this jury, do you have a similar one? But in a shade of mauve?”
    You're right, of course you're right, but you know the objections.

    Spending a bit more to get a lot more is still spending more, and we've conditioned ourselves to not want that.

    It's moving spending from frontline staff to backstage. And we've massively conditioned ourselves to not want that.
    Yet again on pb the most vociferous criticism of the removal of jury trials comes from the very same people who want to massively cut public spending and reduce public sector pay and benefits dramatically.

    The concept of we only get what we are willing to pay for seems to have completely passed them by.
    I have no idea if this is true, but it is rational for opinions to come in related sets, and opinions which don't arise in related ways lack an underlying coherence. Rather than turning the point into a meaningless (and maybe unverified) piece of ad hominem, it would be more useful to examine the relation of the set of opinions, and consider its worth.

    What is irrational about wanting to have a much smaller state while keeping the jury system? We had juries when we had a much smaller state. (I am not proposing either, personally, but there is nothing counter intuitive about it.)

    The frustration is the party led by this group of people have been in power most of my lifetime, and to be fair match the views of the electorate in not wanting to increase taxes.

    So we have court rooms out of use because of leaks, because we don't want to spend money.
    We have a lack of lawyers and judges, because we don't want to spend money.
    Our prisons can't cope, because we don't want to spend money.
    Prisoners come out early, without any thought of rehabilitation and commit more crime.

    Whilst I would prefer jury trials and functioning prisons myself, it does grate to hear the attacks on the status quo from the supporters of the establishment party with zero consideration of how we get here, or any serious thought on how we can change course and what resources that requires.
    Except for a very short time under Mrs T, public expenditure has risen throughout the last decades. The state in various forms manages 44% of total expenditure, over £40,000 per household, just a little short of the highest in Europe and in the middle of the developed pack. Despite that there is not a single area not crying out for much more spending. Something is wrong with the model, but it isn't that taxes are very significantly too low.
    We have no money

    Yet we are spending £700 million on saving a handful of salmon. Billions on an armoured vehicle that literally makes the occupants chronically ill. We can’t find GPs, while we train GPs who can’t get jobs. We have no money to look after children with special needs, but councils are block booking taxis to send them to school - as opposed to a school bus.

    It’s feast-or-famine mode spending. Often on insane things.
    This is the fault of the Treasury - insane budget rules where we seem to look at today and don't worry about tomorrow. The GP issue is a perfect example - we can't afford to hire them full time, but we can afford emergency cover. Or transport - can't afford a bus but can afford emergency cover.

    Do you get it yet? We cut because the Treasury says we must cut. But cuts to provision do not remove the need - which remains. And emergency provision must be done - from a separate budget - which costs more than the cut.

    I keep saying we need to invest in this stuff and be told we have no money. We do - we're literally burning it. Will need a short transition where we both burn cash and invest cash, but then no more bonfires.
    This post hits so hard. It seems like Westminster and Whitehall know it too, but won't do anything.
    I am utterly fucking sick of this stupidity. Its as bad up here as well. Winter snot season - schools asking parents to send their kids in with tissues as the school is running out. Teachers joking about wanting classroom supplies for presents from their kids instead of sweeties. There's literally no money at the front line - but we have schools with heating stuck on full so that everyone melts and windows need to keep being opened (in the summer as well!) because budget rules don't allow repairs when the school is scheduled for replacement in 2019.

    Bureaucrats drown in the micro whilst missing the macro and strategic. You can't the detail because the structure is wrong, but you can't spend money on the structure because you're spending too much money in emergency micro fixes.

    House building. Everyone agrees we need to build more houses but we're building less. Why?
    Land banking by developers
    Arcane endless planning regulations
    Housing Associations starved of resources
    A comprehensive lack of builders sparkies joiners plumbers plasterers etc etc - oh and we'd have to import much of the materiel because we've stopped making them because lack of money.
    But we can't import as we left the EU and they cost more. And we don't like all these forrin workers taking jobs from the untrained unwilling flag shagging fucks.

    FFS. Start at the strategic. OK, we need to build 1.5m houses the fuck yesterday.
    So we need to train the people who will build them. FE colleges here is cash. And a marketing campaign to make building cool
    We need to invest in a brickworks and other stuff - tax incentives to get manufacturing here
    We need to allow LHAs to borrow to build
    We need to bonfire the planning barriers
    We need to give the land bankers 6 months to start or lose the land
    All to build a flood of apartments and starter homes at a social rent as never for sale. Which allows a significant drop in % of wages wasted on rent which allows more money to circulate in the economy which means jobs and more taxes which pays back the investment in skills etc

    Will get any of that? Will we bollocks.
    Does anyone have any idea of the real cost to the country of the post-Grenfell building regulations ?

    A minor example:

    How much does it cost to replace two rotting windows in Britain in 2025?
    More than you might think
    https://www.samdumitriu.com/p/how-much-does-it-cost-to-replace
    But if we don’t triple the cost of replacing windows, by needing plan application consultants, because the forms are so complex… how will the consultants eat?

    Plus it will breach international law, human rights law, law of the sea, NATO, SEATO….
    The regulators, and the industry which exists to navigate the mazes they construct, are arguably the new parasite class.
    Having cleverly adopted the guise of tribunes of the people.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 5,522
    edited 11:44AM

    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Dopermean said:

    FPT ref DavidL's comments on juries

    1) "pull jurors out of a hat" - my experience is being sorted into groups of 16 at the beginning of the week but it could just be done by computer in a matter of seconds once the juror register is complete
    2) Judge briefing the Jury on their duties and responsibilities - apart from case specific issues this is boilerplate. Could be online with a little quiz and declaration, e.g. "If I do my own research on the internet" will I a) be better briefed than the legal counsel, b) be helping my fellow jurors to understand the case or c) do 6 months d) all of the above?
    3) Check in advance whether witnesses need screens and prepare. In your cases I assume it's a given, so the screens should be there by default.

    None of the above has to be on the critical path.

    My experience is that if you're assigned to a trial in the morning then it's 11.30am by the time you're sat down, HHJ does his solemn briefing etc, now 12, they have a brief conflab and decide that there isn't time for 2 opening addresses before lunch, "jury will only remember one side", so break. 2pm before you're back in court in the afternoon, if Judge or barristers don't have an afternoon clash.

    There are delays around sending Juries out and reassembling them, but they can just be sent to the next room rather than allowed to disperse.

    Juries can be taken off the critical path for most of it. Leveson has just blamed them for the inefficiency of the professionals involved.

    There is no way 2 would work - most people will just fast forward the video or put it on and do something else
    Have all the jury prep etc run by court staff. The day before.

    Have jury prep as a courthouse function, run by staff. As a continual operation. Lining up juries, get them sorted, warned, lanyarded.

    So 9am, the judge, lawyers, etc all roll in together.

    Judge can have the option to say - “I don’t look this jury, do you have a similar one? But in a shade of mauve?”
    You're right, of course you're right, but you know the objections.

    Spending a bit more to get a lot more is still spending more, and we've conditioned ourselves to not want that.

    It's moving spending from frontline staff to backstage. And we've massively conditioned ourselves to not want that.
    Yet again on pb the most vociferous criticism of the removal of jury trials comes from the very same people who want to massively cut public spending and reduce public sector pay and benefits dramatically.

    The concept of we only get what we are willing to pay for seems to have completely passed them by.
    I have no idea if this is true, but it is rational for opinions to come in related sets, and opinions which don't arise in related ways lack an underlying coherence. Rather than turning the point into a meaningless (and maybe unverified) piece of ad hominem, it would be more useful to examine the relation of the set of opinions, and consider its worth.

    What is irrational about wanting to have a much smaller state while keeping the jury system? We had juries when we had a much smaller state. (I am not proposing either, personally, but there is nothing counter intuitive about it.)

    The frustration is the party led by this group of people have been in power most of my lifetime, and to be fair match the views of the electorate in not wanting to increase taxes.

    So we have court rooms out of use because of leaks, because we don't want to spend money.
    We have a lack of lawyers and judges, because we don't want to spend money.
    Our prisons can't cope, because we don't want to spend money.
    Prisoners come out early, without any thought of rehabilitation and commit more crime.

    Whilst I would prefer jury trials and functioning prisons myself, it does grate to hear the attacks on the status quo from the supporters of the establishment party with zero consideration of how we get here, or any serious thought on how we can change course and what resources that requires.
    Except for a very short time under Mrs T, public expenditure has risen throughout the last decades. The state in various forms manages 44% of total expenditure, over £40,000 per household, just a little short of the highest in Europe and in the middle of the developed pack. Despite that there is not a single area not crying out for much more spending. Something is wrong with the model, but it isn't that taxes are very significantly too low.
    We have no money

    Yet we are spending £700 million on saving a handful of salmon. Billions on an armoured vehicle that literally makes the occupants chronically ill. We can’t find GPs, while we train GPs who can’t get jobs. We have no money to look after children with special needs, but councils are block booking taxis to send them to school - as opposed to a school bus.

    It’s feast-or-famine mode spending. Often on insane things.
    This is the fault of the Treasury - insane budget rules where we seem to look at today and don't worry about tomorrow. The GP issue is a perfect example - we can't afford to hire them full time, but we can afford emergency cover. Or transport - can't afford a bus but can afford emergency cover.

    Do you get it yet? We cut because the Treasury says we must cut. But cuts to provision do not remove the need - which remains. And emergency provision must be done - from a separate budget - which costs more than the cut.

    I keep saying we need to invest in this stuff and be told we have no money. We do - we're literally burning it. Will need a short transition where we both burn cash and invest cash, but then no more bonfires.
    This post hits so hard. It seems like Westminster and Whitehall know it too, but won't do anything.
    I am utterly fucking sick of this stupidity. Its as bad up here as well. Winter snot season - schools asking parents to send their kids in with tissues as the school is running out. Teachers joking about wanting classroom supplies for presents from their kids instead of sweeties. There's literally no money at the front line - but we have schools with heating stuck on full so that everyone melts and windows need to keep being opened (in the summer as well!) because budget rules don't allow repairs when the school is scheduled for replacement in 2019.

    Bureaucrats drown in the micro whilst missing the macro and strategic. You can't the detail because the structure is wrong, but you can't spend money on the structure because you're spending too much money in emergency micro fixes.

    House building. Everyone agrees we need to build more houses but we're building less. Why?
    Land banking by developers
    Arcane endless planning regulations
    Housing Associations starved of resources
    A comprehensive lack of builders sparkies joiners plumbers plasterers etc etc - oh and we'd have to import much of the materiel because we've stopped making them because lack of money.
    But we can't import as we left the EU and they cost more. And we don't like all these forrin workers taking jobs from the untrained unwilling flag shagging fucks.

    FFS. Start at the strategic. OK, we need to build 1.5m houses the fuck yesterday.
    So we need to train the people who will build them. FE colleges here is cash. And a marketing campaign to make building cool
    We need to invest in a brickworks and other stuff - tax incentives to get manufacturing here
    We need to allow LHAs to borrow to build
    We need to bonfire the planning barriers
    We need to give the land bankers 6 months to start or lose the land
    All to build a flood of apartments and starter homes at a social rent as never for sale. Which allows a significant drop in % of wages wasted on rent which allows more money to circulate in the economy which means jobs and more taxes which pays back the investment in skills etc

    Will get any of that? Will we bollocks.
    Does anyone have any idea of the real cost to the country of the post-Grenfell building regulations ?

    A minor example:

    How much does it cost to replace two rotting windows in Britain in 2025?
    More than you might think
    https://www.samdumitriu.com/p/how-much-does-it-cost-to-replace
    But if we don’t triple the cost of replacing windows, by needing plan application consultants, because the forms are so complex… how will the consultants eat?

    Plus it will breach international law, human rights law, law of the sea, NATO, SEATO….
    Do the planning consultants actually want this work?

    It looks like tedious b*llocks that you charge silly money for because you don't really want to waste your life filling in stupid forms.

    If someone is desperate enough to pay you £1k+/day for it then you might reluctantly get out of bed.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,668
    Taz said:

    I so hope this happens for the giggles. It will make the bedwetting over MK Dons seem trivial by comparison.


    ‘ Sheffield United’s American owners made an enquiry in the sale of rivals Sheffield Wednesday

    It’s believed they wanted to explore a merger between the two clubs ⚔️🇺🇸🦉

    Sickening stuff🤢🤮’


    https://x.com/the_forty_four/status/1993436096848707966?s=61

    It makes sense though. Sheffield can't sustain two clubs other than bouncing around the Championship/Division 1. A single team might keep in the Premiership.

    The same should apply to Liverpool.

    And Manchester.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,931
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Dopermean said:

    FPT ref DavidL's comments on juries

    1) "pull jurors out of a hat" - my experience is being sorted into groups of 16 at the beginning of the week but it could just be done by computer in a matter of seconds once the juror register is complete
    2) Judge briefing the Jury on their duties and responsibilities - apart from case specific issues this is boilerplate. Could be online with a little quiz and declaration, e.g. "If I do my own research on the internet" will I a) be better briefed than the legal counsel, b) be helping my fellow jurors to understand the case or c) do 6 months d) all of the above?
    3) Check in advance whether witnesses need screens and prepare. In your cases I assume it's a given, so the screens should be there by default.

    None of the above has to be on the critical path.

    My experience is that if you're assigned to a trial in the morning then it's 11.30am by the time you're sat down, HHJ does his solemn briefing etc, now 12, they have a brief conflab and decide that there isn't time for 2 opening addresses before lunch, "jury will only remember one side", so break. 2pm before you're back in court in the afternoon, if Judge or barristers don't have an afternoon clash.

    There are delays around sending Juries out and reassembling them, but they can just be sent to the next room rather than allowed to disperse.

    Juries can be taken off the critical path for most of it. Leveson has just blamed them for the inefficiency of the professionals involved.

    There is no way 2 would work - most people will just fast forward the video or put it on and do something else
    Have all the jury prep etc run by court staff. The day before.

    Have jury prep as a courthouse function, run by staff. As a continual operation. Lining up juries, get them sorted, warned, lanyarded.

    So 9am, the judge, lawyers, etc all roll in together.

    Judge can have the option to say - “I don’t look this jury, do you have a similar one? But in a shade of mauve?”
    You're right, of course you're right, but you know the objections.

    Spending a bit more to get a lot more is still spending more, and we've conditioned ourselves to not want that.

    It's moving spending from frontline staff to backstage. And we've massively conditioned ourselves to not want that.
    Yet again on pb the most vociferous criticism of the removal of jury trials comes from the very same people who want to massively cut public spending and reduce public sector pay and benefits dramatically.

    The concept of we only get what we are willing to pay for seems to have completely passed them by.
    I have no idea if this is true, but it is rational for opinions to come in related sets, and opinions which don't arise in related ways lack an underlying coherence. Rather than turning the point into a meaningless (and maybe unverified) piece of ad hominem, it would be more useful to examine the relation of the set of opinions, and consider its worth.

    What is irrational about wanting to have a much smaller state while keeping the jury system? We had juries when we had a much smaller state. (I am not proposing either, personally, but there is nothing counter intuitive about it.)

    The frustration is the party led by this group of people have been in power most of my lifetime, and to be fair match the views of the electorate in not wanting to increase taxes.

    So we have court rooms out of use because of leaks, because we don't want to spend money.
    We have a lack of lawyers and judges, because we don't want to spend money.
    Our prisons can't cope, because we don't want to spend money.
    Prisoners come out early, without any thought of rehabilitation and commit more crime.

    Whilst I would prefer jury trials and functioning prisons myself, it does grate to hear the attacks on the status quo from the supporters of the establishment party with zero consideration of how we get here, or any serious thought on how we can change course and what resources that requires.
    Except for a very short time under Mrs T, public expenditure has risen throughout the last decades. The state in various forms manages 44% of total expenditure, over £40,000 per household, just a little short of the highest in Europe and in the middle of the developed pack. Despite that there is not a single area not crying out for much more spending. Something is wrong with the model, but it isn't that taxes are very significantly too low.
    We have no money

    Yet we are spending £700 million on saving a handful of salmon. Billions on an armoured vehicle that literally makes the occupants chronically ill. We can’t find GPs, while we train GPs who can’t get jobs. We have no money to look after children with special needs, but councils are block booking taxis to send them to school - as opposed to a school bus.

    It’s feast-or-famine mode spending. Often on insane things.
    This is the fault of the Treasury - insane budget rules where we seem to look at today and don't worry about tomorrow. The GP issue is a perfect example - we can't afford to hire them full time, but we can afford emergency cover. Or transport - can't afford a bus but can afford emergency cover.

    Do you get it yet? We cut because the Treasury says we must cut. But cuts to provision do not remove the need - which remains. And emergency provision must be done - from a separate budget - which costs more than the cut.

    I keep saying we need to invest in this stuff and be told we have no money. We do - we're literally burning it. Will need a short transition where we both burn cash and invest cash, but then no more bonfires.
    This post hits so hard. It seems like Westminster and Whitehall know it too, but won't do anything.
    I am utterly fucking sick of this stupidity. Its as bad up here as well. Winter snot season - schools asking parents to send their kids in with tissues as the school is running out. Teachers joking about wanting classroom supplies for presents from their kids instead of sweeties. There's literally no money at the front line - but we have schools with heating stuck on full so that everyone melts and windows need to keep being opened (in the summer as well!) because budget rules don't allow repairs when the school is scheduled for replacement in 2019.

    Bureaucrats drown in the micro whilst missing the macro and strategic. You can't the detail because the structure is wrong, but you can't spend money on the structure because you're spending too much money in emergency micro fixes.

    House building. Everyone agrees we need to build more houses but we're building less. Why?
    Land banking by developers
    Arcane endless planning regulations
    Housing Associations starved of resources
    A comprehensive lack of builders sparkies joiners plumbers plasterers etc etc - oh and we'd have to import much of the materiel because we've stopped making them because lack of money.
    But we can't import as we left the EU and they cost more. And we don't like all these forrin workers taking jobs from the untrained unwilling flag shagging fucks.

    FFS. Start at the strategic. OK, we need to build 1.5m houses the fuck yesterday.
    So we need to train the people who will build them. FE colleges here is cash. And a marketing campaign to make building cool
    We need to invest in a brickworks and other stuff - tax incentives to get manufacturing here
    We need to allow LHAs to borrow to build
    We need to bonfire the planning barriers
    We need to give the land bankers 6 months to start or lose the land
    All to build a flood of apartments and starter homes at a social rent as never for sale. Which allows a significant drop in % of wages wasted on rent which allows more money to circulate in the economy which means jobs and more taxes which pays back the investment in skills etc

    Will get any of that? Will we bollocks.
    Does anyone have any idea of the real cost to the country of the post-Grenfell building regulations ?

    A minor example:

    How much does it cost to replace two rotting windows in Britain in 2025?
    More than you might think
    https://www.samdumitriu.com/p/how-much-does-it-cost-to-replace
    But if we don’t triple the cost of replacing windows, by needing plan application consultants, because the forms are so complex… how will the consultants eat?

    Plus it will breach international law, human rights law, law of the sea, NATO, SEATO….
    The regulators, and the industry which exists to navigate the mazes they construct, are arguably the new parasite class.
    Having cleverly adopted the guise of tribunes of the people.
    Compliance costs are now a very significant proportion of total build costs.
  • ManchesterKurtManchesterKurt Posts: 945
    Why is the 10 year Gilt yield dropping like a stone?
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,931

    Taz said:

    I so hope this happens for the giggles. It will make the bedwetting over MK Dons seem trivial by comparison.


    ‘ Sheffield United’s American owners made an enquiry in the sale of rivals Sheffield Wednesday

    It’s believed they wanted to explore a merger between the two clubs ⚔️🇺🇸🦉

    Sickening stuff🤢🤮’


    https://x.com/the_forty_four/status/1993436096848707966?s=61

    It makes sense though. Sheffield can't sustain two clubs other than bouncing around the Championship/Division 1. A single team might keep in the Premiership.

    The same should apply to Liverpool.

    And Manchester.
    What about Nottingham Forest and Notts County? There's only the River Trent between them. They could fill it in and merge the two grounds.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,714
    viewcode said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure.

    You may not like it, that's fair enough, but it's a clear, objective, and widely used measure. Hardly something to criticise BBC Verify for.

    Out of interest what would you propose as the measure of poverty? Does a child need to be starving, in rags, no shoes?
    It is not legitimate. Using a relative measure means someone can be perfectly well-off but because others are even better off the former are deemed to be 'poor'. And if those even better off suddenly have a great downturn in fortune then the previously 'poor' magically becomes 'wealthy' despite having no extra money whatsoever.

    An absolute measure is fairer.
    An absolute measure at what level?
    Enough to meet essentials, with a small amount left over for minor luxuries (meals out, cinema etc) and modest saving.
    Closer but still relative not absolute poverty.

    Absolute poverty is not having a roof over your head, not having enough food and not having enough to drink and not having enough clothing, especially to keep you warm in winter
    Absolute pov is not having a mobile. Just try functioning without one.
    That's horribly true. Businesses and shops are increasingly reliant on apps: my bank gets very upset when I refuse to download their app, and my GP just sent my test results to me via a NHS account (I don't have one), so I don't know if I'm going blind or not. I am slightly annoyed by this. :(
    Also, increasingly, even more urgent stuff if one is poor. Claiming the dole (in whatever modern form). Finding jobs, dealing with the DWP, and so on.

    As for your example: I paid in a cheque at my bank's local branch the other day. Got asked twice by staff if I really needed to see the cashier etc. before I got to the desk and had my receipt. The online banking has no provision for cheques, and I don't want a mobile app as well, it's hard enough keeping mental track as it is. Lucky to have a branch within walking distance ...)
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,596
    Don’t normally bet on the gee gees but having a quid on this


  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,166

    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Dopermean said:

    FPT ref DavidL's comments on juries

    1) "pull jurors out of a hat" - my experience is being sorted into groups of 16 at the beginning of the week but it could just be done by computer in a matter of seconds once the juror register is complete
    2) Judge briefing the Jury on their duties and responsibilities - apart from case specific issues this is boilerplate. Could be online with a little quiz and declaration, e.g. "If I do my own research on the internet" will I a) be better briefed than the legal counsel, b) be helping my fellow jurors to understand the case or c) do 6 months d) all of the above?
    3) Check in advance whether witnesses need screens and prepare. In your cases I assume it's a given, so the screens should be there by default.

    None of the above has to be on the critical path.

    My experience is that if you're assigned to a trial in the morning then it's 11.30am by the time you're sat down, HHJ does his solemn briefing etc, now 12, they have a brief conflab and decide that there isn't time for 2 opening addresses before lunch, "jury will only remember one side", so break. 2pm before you're back in court in the afternoon, if Judge or barristers don't have an afternoon clash.

    There are delays around sending Juries out and reassembling them, but they can just be sent to the next room rather than allowed to disperse.

    Juries can be taken off the critical path for most of it. Leveson has just blamed them for the inefficiency of the professionals involved.

    There is no way 2 would work - most people will just fast forward the video or put it on and do something else
    Have all the jury prep etc run by court staff. The day before.

    Have jury prep as a courthouse function, run by staff. As a continual operation. Lining up juries, get them sorted, warned, lanyarded.

    So 9am, the judge, lawyers, etc all roll in together.

    Judge can have the option to say - “I don’t look this jury, do you have a similar one? But in a shade of mauve?”
    You're right, of course you're right, but you know the objections.

    Spending a bit more to get a lot more is still spending more, and we've conditioned ourselves to not want that.

    It's moving spending from frontline staff to backstage. And we've massively conditioned ourselves to not want that.
    Yet again on pb the most vociferous criticism of the removal of jury trials comes from the very same people who want to massively cut public spending and reduce public sector pay and benefits dramatically.

    The concept of we only get what we are willing to pay for seems to have completely passed them by.
    I have no idea if this is true, but it is rational for opinions to come in related sets, and opinions which don't arise in related ways lack an underlying coherence. Rather than turning the point into a meaningless (and maybe unverified) piece of ad hominem, it would be more useful to examine the relation of the set of opinions, and consider its worth.

    What is irrational about wanting to have a much smaller state while keeping the jury system? We had juries when we had a much smaller state. (I am not proposing either, personally, but there is nothing counter intuitive about it.)

    The frustration is the party led by this group of people have been in power most of my lifetime, and to be fair match the views of the electorate in not wanting to increase taxes.

    So we have court rooms out of use because of leaks, because we don't want to spend money.
    We have a lack of lawyers and judges, because we don't want to spend money.
    Our prisons can't cope, because we don't want to spend money.
    Prisoners come out early, without any thought of rehabilitation and commit more crime.

    Whilst I would prefer jury trials and functioning prisons myself, it does grate to hear the attacks on the status quo from the supporters of the establishment party with zero consideration of how we get here, or any serious thought on how we can change course and what resources that requires.
    Except for a very short time under Mrs T, public expenditure has risen throughout the last decades. The state in various forms manages 44% of total expenditure, over £40,000 per household, just a little short of the highest in Europe and in the middle of the developed pack. Despite that there is not a single area not crying out for much more spending. Something is wrong with the model, but it isn't that taxes are very significantly too low.
    We have no money

    Yet we are spending £700 million on saving a handful of salmon. Billions on an armoured vehicle that literally makes the occupants chronically ill. We can’t find GPs, while we train GPs who can’t get jobs. We have no money to look after children with special needs, but councils are block booking taxis to send them to school - as opposed to a school bus.

    It’s feast-or-famine mode spending. Often on insane things.
    This is the fault of the Treasury - insane budget rules where we seem to look at today and don't worry about tomorrow. The GP issue is a perfect example - we can't afford to hire them full time, but we can afford emergency cover. Or transport - can't afford a bus but can afford emergency cover.

    Do you get it yet? We cut because the Treasury says we must cut. But cuts to provision do not remove the need - which remains. And emergency provision must be done - from a separate budget - which costs more than the cut.

    I keep saying we need to invest in this stuff and be told we have no money. We do - we're literally burning it. Will need a short transition where we both burn cash and invest cash, but then no more bonfires.
    This post hits so hard. It seems like Westminster and Whitehall know it too, but won't do anything.
    I am utterly fucking sick of this stupidity. Its as bad up here as well. Winter snot season - schools asking parents to send their kids in with tissues as the school is running out. Teachers joking about wanting classroom supplies for presents from their kids instead of sweeties. There's literally no money at the front line - but we have schools with heating stuck on full so that everyone melts and windows need to keep being opened (in the summer as well!) because budget rules don't allow repairs when the school is scheduled for replacement in 2019.

    Bureaucrats drown in the micro whilst missing the macro and strategic. You can't the detail because the structure is wrong, but you can't spend money on the structure because you're spending too much money in emergency micro fixes.

    House building. Everyone agrees we need to build more houses but we're building less. Why?
    Land banking by developers
    Arcane endless planning regulations
    Housing Associations starved of resources
    A comprehensive lack of builders sparkies joiners plumbers plasterers etc etc - oh and we'd have to import much of the materiel because we've stopped making them because lack of money.
    But we can't import as we left the EU and they cost more. And we don't like all these forrin workers taking jobs from the untrained unwilling flag shagging fucks.

    FFS. Start at the strategic. OK, we need to build 1.5m houses the fuck yesterday.
    So we need to train the people who will build them. FE colleges here is cash. And a marketing campaign to make building cool
    We need to invest in a brickworks and other stuff - tax incentives to get manufacturing here
    We need to allow LHAs to borrow to build
    We need to bonfire the planning barriers
    We need to give the land bankers 6 months to start or lose the land
    All to build a flood of apartments and starter homes at a social rent as never for sale. Which allows a significant drop in % of wages wasted on rent which allows more money to circulate in the economy which means jobs and more taxes which pays back the investment in skills etc

    Will get any of that? Will we bollocks.
    Does anyone have any idea of the real cost to the country of the post-Grenfell building regulations ?

    A minor example:

    How much does it cost to replace two rotting windows in Britain in 2025?
    More than you might think
    https://www.samdumitriu.com/p/how-much-does-it-cost-to-replace
    But if we don’t triple the cost of replacing windows, by needing plan application consultants, because the forms are so complex… how will the consultants eat?

    Plus it will breach international law, human rights law, law of the sea, NATO, SEATO….
    I think horrors often trigger overreactions and it doesn't surprise me that Grenfell did. Much of what ensued seemed driven by a mixture of panic and cya.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,315

    Why is the 10 year Gilt yield dropping like a stone?

    Reuters projection OBR
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,007

    algarkirk said:

    Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure.

    You may not like it, that's fair enough, but it's a clear, objective, and widely used measure. Hardly something to criticise BBC Verify for.

    Out of interest what would you propose as the measure of poverty? Does a child need to be starving, in rags, no shoes?
    When we interrogate our idea of poverty it is always a relative concept at its core, because poverty is ultimately about being excluded from the normal patterns of consumption and participation in our current society. In my view it is so-called 'absolute' poverty measures that are bullshit.
    Not being able to 'keep up with the Joneses' in a neighbourhood pissing contest doesn't make someone poor. It makes them unable to afford an unnecessary and 'fashionable' splurging of cash you don't have on things you don't need. And the idea that should be subsidised by the taxpayer is just another tier in the cake of relative poverty bullshit.

    Edited: as an aside, I'll be AFK for the Budget, which is a shame but needs must.
    It's not about keeping up with Jones's. The point is that what we might consider an absolute poverty line now would be very different to the absolute poverty line 50 years ago, because we have different expectations about what constitutes a minimum standard of living, and these expectations are related to what we consider a normal standard of living. This is why I find the idea of some kind of objective and immutable poverty line fundamentally dishonest.
    As always it depends on what is done with the concept. Relative and absolute poverty are clearly different ideas. Relative poverty has the property of being more or less by definition ineradicable. Absolute poverty has the property of being a quantity of immiseration which is unacceptable when encountered, especially in children.

    Damage is done by leftists who elide relative poverty into something self evidently bad, when it is not self evident. Rightists do harm by insisting the real measure should be more like absolute poverty, which we should not contemplate for anyone. Imprecision and ambiguity is the permanent friend of lobbyists.
    If you define relative poverty as some fraction of median income then it needn't be ineradicable as long as the fraction is not too close to 1. This doesn't mean that we should necessarily seek to eradicate it - like any policy we should consider the balance of costs and benefits. Most likely the poor will always be with us.
    Personally I just think that people who advocate for 'absolute' poverty measures just haven't thought very deeply about what poverty really is or how we define it.
    I think that defining poverty as a % of median income is pretty meaningless.

    But, I would agree that definitions of poverty can and should rise over time. Subsistence is $3 per day, per person, but in a rich world country, you would want to define poverty well above that figure.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,785
    edited 11:51AM
    .

    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Dopermean said:

    FPT ref DavidL's comments on juries

    1) "pull jurors out of a hat" - my experience is being sorted into groups of 16 at the beginning of the week but it could just be done by computer in a matter of seconds once the juror register is complete
    2) Judge briefing the Jury on their duties and responsibilities - apart from case specific issues this is boilerplate. Could be online with a little quiz and declaration, e.g. "If I do my own research on the internet" will I a) be better briefed than the legal counsel, b) be helping my fellow jurors to understand the case or c) do 6 months d) all of the above?
    3) Check in advance whether witnesses need screens and prepare. In your cases I assume it's a given, so the screens should be there by default.

    None of the above has to be on the critical path.

    My experience is that if you're assigned to a trial in the morning then it's 11.30am by the time you're sat down, HHJ does his solemn briefing etc, now 12, they have a brief conflab and decide that there isn't time for 2 opening addresses before lunch, "jury will only remember one side", so break. 2pm before you're back in court in the afternoon, if Judge or barristers don't have an afternoon clash.

    There are delays around sending Juries out and reassembling them, but they can just be sent to the next room rather than allowed to disperse.

    Juries can be taken off the critical path for most of it. Leveson has just blamed them for the inefficiency of the professionals involved.

    There is no way 2 would work - most people will just fast forward the video or put it on and do something else
    Have all the jury prep etc run by court staff. The day before.

    Have jury prep as a courthouse function, run by staff. As a continual operation. Lining up juries, get them sorted, warned, lanyarded.

    So 9am, the judge, lawyers, etc all roll in together.

    Judge can have the option to say - “I don’t look this jury, do you have a similar one? But in a shade of mauve?”
    You're right, of course you're right, but you know the objections.

    Spending a bit more to get a lot more is still spending more, and we've conditioned ourselves to not want that.

    It's moving spending from frontline staff to backstage. And we've massively conditioned ourselves to not want that.
    Yet again on pb the most vociferous criticism of the removal of jury trials comes from the very same people who want to massively cut public spending and reduce public sector pay and benefits dramatically.

    The concept of we only get what we are willing to pay for seems to have completely passed them by.
    I have no idea if this is true, but it is rational for opinions to come in related sets, and opinions which don't arise in related ways lack an underlying coherence. Rather than turning the point into a meaningless (and maybe unverified) piece of ad hominem, it would be more useful to examine the relation of the set of opinions, and consider its worth.

    What is irrational about wanting to have a much smaller state while keeping the jury system? We had juries when we had a much smaller state. (I am not proposing either, personally, but there is nothing counter intuitive about it.)

    The frustration is the party led by this group of people have been in power most of my lifetime, and to be fair match the views of the electorate in not wanting to increase taxes.

    So we have court rooms out of use because of leaks, because we don't want to spend money.
    We have a lack of lawyers and judges, because we don't want to spend money.
    Our prisons can't cope, because we don't want to spend money.
    Prisoners come out early, without any thought of rehabilitation and commit more crime.

    Whilst I would prefer jury trials and functioning prisons myself, it does grate to hear the attacks on the status quo from the supporters of the establishment party with zero consideration of how we get here, or any serious thought on how we can change course and what resources that requires.
    Except for a very short time under Mrs T, public expenditure has risen throughout the last decades. The state in various forms manages 44% of total expenditure, over £40,000 per household, just a little short of the highest in Europe and in the middle of the developed pack. Despite that there is not a single area not crying out for much more spending. Something is wrong with the model, but it isn't that taxes are very significantly too low.
    We have no money

    Yet we are spending £700 million on saving a handful of salmon. Billions on an armoured vehicle that literally makes the occupants chronically ill. We can’t find GPs, while we train GPs who can’t get jobs. We have no money to look after children with special needs, but councils are block booking taxis to send them to school - as opposed to a school bus.

    It’s feast-or-famine mode spending. Often on insane things.
    This is the fault of the Treasury - insane budget rules where we seem to look at today and don't worry about tomorrow. The GP issue is a perfect example - we can't afford to hire them full time, but we can afford emergency cover. Or transport - can't afford a bus but can afford emergency cover.

    Do you get it yet? We cut because the Treasury says we must cut. But cuts to provision do not remove the need - which remains. And emergency provision must be done - from a separate budget - which costs more than the cut.

    I keep saying we need to invest in this stuff and be told we have no money. We do - we're literally burning it. Will need a short transition where we both burn cash and invest cash, but then no more bonfires.
    This post hits so hard. It seems like Westminster and Whitehall know it too, but won't do anything.
    I am utterly fucking sick of this stupidity. Its as bad up here as well. Winter snot season - schools asking parents to send their kids in with tissues as the school is running out. Teachers joking about wanting classroom supplies for presents from their kids instead of sweeties. There's literally no money at the front line - but we have schools with heating stuck on full so that everyone melts and windows need to keep being opened (in the summer as well!) because budget rules don't allow repairs when the school is scheduled for replacement in 2019.

    Bureaucrats drown in the micro whilst missing the macro and strategic. You can't the detail because the structure is wrong, but you can't spend money on the structure because you're spending too much money in emergency micro fixes.

    House building. Everyone agrees we need to build more houses but we're building less. Why?
    Land banking by developers
    Arcane endless planning regulations
    Housing Associations starved of resources
    A comprehensive lack of builders sparkies joiners plumbers plasterers etc etc - oh and we'd have to import much of the materiel because we've stopped making them because lack of money.
    But we can't import as we left the EU and they cost more. And we don't like all these forrin workers taking jobs from the untrained unwilling flag shagging fucks.

    FFS. Start at the strategic. OK, we need to build 1.5m houses the fuck yesterday.
    So we need to train the people who will build them. FE colleges here is cash. And a marketing campaign to make building cool
    We need to invest in a brickworks and other stuff - tax incentives to get manufacturing here
    We need to allow LHAs to borrow to build
    We need to bonfire the planning barriers
    We need to give the land bankers 6 months to start or lose the land
    All to build a flood of apartments and starter homes at a social rent as never for sale. Which allows a significant drop in % of wages wasted on rent which allows more money to circulate in the economy which means jobs and more taxes which pays back the investment in skills etc

    Will get any of that? Will we bollocks.
    Does anyone have any idea of the real cost to the country of the post-Grenfell building regulations ?

    A minor example:

    How much does it cost to replace two rotting windows in Britain in 2025?
    More than you might think
    https://www.samdumitriu.com/p/how-much-does-it-cost-to-replace
    But if we don’t triple the cost of replacing windows, by needing plan application consultants, because the forms are so complex… how will the consultants eat?

    Plus it will breach international law, human rights law, law of the sea, NATO, SEATO….
    Do the planning consultants actually want this work?

    It looks like tedious b*llocks that you charge silly money for because you don't really want to waste your life filling in stupid forms.

    If someone is desperate enough to pay you £1k+/day for it then you might reluctantly get out of bed.
    That is part of the problem.
    People just get stuck, without anyone offering a solution.

    The unfortunate chap here is living in a building slightly over 18m tall, which means special regulations apply, even to changing your window.
    ...the story doesn’t end there. Chris lives in what is known as a ‘Higher Risk Building’. This was a category created by the Building Safety Act and includes all buildings 18m or higher. The block of flats Chris lives in is slightly taller than 18m so any major works in his building need special approval.

    In theory, this should be easy. The system was meant to outsource approvals for things like window replacements to a ‘Competent Persons Schemes’. In other words, have your window installed by a regulated professional and they can sign-off on building control. Easy peasy.

    The problem is Chris asked every single scheme qualified to sign-off the works (there are three) and they all told him the same thing: they won’t sign off any work on a higher risk building. It is not clear why or if the Government engaged with the schemes...
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,131
    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Dopermean said:

    FPT ref DavidL's comments on juries

    1) "pull jurors out of a hat" - my experience is being sorted into groups of 16 at the beginning of the week but it could just be done by computer in a matter of seconds once the juror register is complete
    2) Judge briefing the Jury on their duties and responsibilities - apart from case specific issues this is boilerplate. Could be online with a little quiz and declaration, e.g. "If I do my own research on the internet" will I a) be better briefed than the legal counsel, b) be helping my fellow jurors to understand the case or c) do 6 months d) all of the above?
    3) Check in advance whether witnesses need screens and prepare. In your cases I assume it's a given, so the screens should be there by default.

    None of the above has to be on the critical path.

    My experience is that if you're assigned to a trial in the morning then it's 11.30am by the time you're sat down, HHJ does his solemn briefing etc, now 12, they have a brief conflab and decide that there isn't time for 2 opening addresses before lunch, "jury will only remember one side", so break. 2pm before you're back in court in the afternoon, if Judge or barristers don't have an afternoon clash.

    There are delays around sending Juries out and reassembling them, but they can just be sent to the next room rather than allowed to disperse.

    Juries can be taken off the critical path for most of it. Leveson has just blamed them for the inefficiency of the professionals involved.

    There is no way 2 would work - most people will just fast forward the video or put it on and do something else
    Have all the jury prep etc run by court staff. The day before.

    Have jury prep as a courthouse function, run by staff. As a continual operation. Lining up juries, get them sorted, warned, lanyarded.

    So 9am, the judge, lawyers, etc all roll in together.

    Judge can have the option to say - “I don’t look this jury, do you have a similar one? But in a shade of mauve?”
    You're right, of course you're right, but you know the objections.

    Spending a bit more to get a lot more is still spending more, and we've conditioned ourselves to not want that.

    It's moving spending from frontline staff to backstage. And we've massively conditioned ourselves to not want that.
    Yet again on pb the most vociferous criticism of the removal of jury trials comes from the very same people who want to massively cut public spending and reduce public sector pay and benefits dramatically.

    The concept of we only get what we are willing to pay for seems to have completely passed them by.
    I have no idea if this is true, but it is rational for opinions to come in related sets, and opinions which don't arise in related ways lack an underlying coherence. Rather than turning the point into a meaningless (and maybe unverified) piece of ad hominem, it would be more useful to examine the relation of the set of opinions, and consider its worth.

    What is irrational about wanting to have a much smaller state while keeping the jury system? We had juries when we had a much smaller state. (I am not proposing either, personally, but there is nothing counter intuitive about it.)

    The frustration is the party led by this group of people have been in power most of my lifetime, and to be fair match the views of the electorate in not wanting to increase taxes.

    So we have court rooms out of use because of leaks, because we don't want to spend money.
    We have a lack of lawyers and judges, because we don't want to spend money.
    Our prisons can't cope, because we don't want to spend money.
    Prisoners come out early, without any thought of rehabilitation and commit more crime.

    Whilst I would prefer jury trials and functioning prisons myself, it does grate to hear the attacks on the status quo from the supporters of the establishment party with zero consideration of how we get here, or any serious thought on how we can change course and what resources that requires.
    Except for a very short time under Mrs T, public expenditure has risen throughout the last decades. The state in various forms manages 44% of total expenditure, over £40,000 per household, just a little short of the highest in Europe and in the middle of the developed pack. Despite that there is not a single area not crying out for much more spending. Something is wrong with the model, but it isn't that taxes are very significantly too low.
    We have no money

    Yet we are spending £700 million on saving a handful of salmon. Billions on an armoured vehicle that literally makes the occupants chronically ill. We can’t find GPs, while we train GPs who can’t get jobs. We have no money to look after children with special needs, but councils are block booking taxis to send them to school - as opposed to a school bus.

    It’s feast-or-famine mode spending. Often on insane things.
    This is the fault of the Treasury - insane budget rules where we seem to look at today and don't worry about tomorrow. The GP issue is a perfect example - we can't afford to hire them full time, but we can afford emergency cover. Or transport - can't afford a bus but can afford emergency cover.

    Do you get it yet? We cut because the Treasury says we must cut. But cuts to provision do not remove the need - which remains. And emergency provision must be done - from a separate budget - which costs more than the cut.

    I keep saying we need to invest in this stuff and be told we have no money. We do - we're literally burning it. Will need a short transition where we both burn cash and invest cash, but then no more bonfires.
    This post hits so hard. It seems like Westminster and Whitehall know it too, but won't do anything.
    I am utterly fucking sick of this stupidity. Its as bad up here as well. Winter snot season - schools asking parents to send their kids in with tissues as the school is running out. Teachers joking about wanting classroom supplies for presents from their kids instead of sweeties. There's literally no money at the front line - but we have schools with heating stuck on full so that everyone melts and windows need to keep being opened (in the summer as well!) because budget rules don't allow repairs when the school is scheduled for replacement in 2019.

    Bureaucrats drown in the micro whilst missing the macro and strategic. You can't the detail because the structure is wrong, but you can't spend money on the structure because you're spending too much money in emergency micro fixes.

    House building. Everyone agrees we need to build more houses but we're building less. Why?
    Land banking by developers
    Arcane endless planning regulations
    Housing Associations starved of resources
    A comprehensive lack of builders sparkies joiners plumbers plasterers etc etc - oh and we'd have to import much of the materiel because we've stopped making them because lack of money.
    But we can't import as we left the EU and they cost more. And we don't like all these forrin workers taking jobs from the untrained unwilling flag shagging fucks.

    FFS. Start at the strategic. OK, we need to build 1.5m houses the fuck yesterday.
    So we need to train the people who will build them. FE colleges here is cash. And a marketing campaign to make building cool
    We need to invest in a brickworks and other stuff - tax incentives to get manufacturing here
    We need to allow LHAs to borrow to build
    We need to bonfire the planning barriers
    We need to give the land bankers 6 months to start or lose the land
    All to build a flood of apartments and starter homes at a social rent as never for sale. Which allows a significant drop in % of wages wasted on rent which allows more money to circulate in the economy which means jobs and more taxes which pays back the investment in skills etc

    Will get any of that? Will we bollocks.
    Does anyone have any idea of the real cost to the country of the post-Grenfell building regulations ?

    A minor example:

    How much does it cost to replace two rotting windows in Britain in 2025?
    More than you might think
    https://www.samdumitriu.com/p/how-much-does-it-cost-to-replace
    How did that get through the Commons, and why isn't Parliament fixing it?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,205
    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    Dopermean said:

    FPT ref DavidL's comments on juries

    1) "pull jurors out of a hat" - my experience is being sorted into groups of 16 at the beginning of the week but it could just be done by computer in a matter of seconds once the juror register is complete
    2) Judge briefing the Jury on their duties and responsibilities - apart from case specific issues this is boilerplate. Could be online with a little quiz and declaration, e.g. "If I do my own research on the internet" will I a) be better briefed than the legal counsel, b) be helping my fellow jurors to understand the case or c) do 6 months d) all of the above?
    3) Check in advance whether witnesses need screens and prepare. In your cases I assume it's a given, so the screens should be there by default.

    None of the above has to be on the critical path.

    My experience is that if you're assigned to a trial in the morning then it's 11.30am by the time you're sat down, HHJ does his solemn briefing etc, now 12, they have a brief conflab and decide that there isn't time for 2 opening addresses before lunch, "jury will only remember one side", so break. 2pm before you're back in court in the afternoon, if Judge or barristers don't have an afternoon clash.

    There are delays around sending Juries out and reassembling them, but they can just be sent to the next room rather than allowed to disperse.

    Juries can be taken off the critical path for most of it. Leveson has just blamed them for the inefficiency of the professionals involved.

    There is no way 2 would work - most people will just fast forward the video or put it on and do something else
    Have all the jury prep etc run by court staff. The day before.

    Have jury prep as a courthouse function, run by staff. As a continual operation. Lining up juries, get them sorted, warned, lanyarded.

    So 9am, the judge, lawyers, etc all roll in together.

    Judge can have the option to say - “I don’t look this jury, do you have a similar one? But in a shade of mauve?”
    You're right, of course you're right, but you know the objections.

    Spending a bit more to get a lot more is still spending more, and we've conditioned ourselves to not want that.

    It's moving spending from frontline staff to backstage. And we've massively conditioned ourselves to not want that.
    Yet again on pb the most vociferous criticism of the removal of jury trials comes from the very same people who want to massively cut public spending and reduce public sector pay and benefits dramatically.

    The concept of we only get what we are willing to pay for seems to have completely passed them by.
    What utter twaddle. I have been consistent in my opposition to this proposal and have suggested both above and BTL ways to raise money.

    The justice system is the first and most fundamental duty of the state. This is not about saving money or not having the money to spend. It is a power grab by an illiberal and authoritarian minded bunch of third rate politicians with little understanding of or appreciation for our history, our freedoms and the fundamentals of a truly liberal democracy.
    Lawyer says the justice system is the first and most fundamental duty of the state! I bet we can find an army person to say that defence is the first and most fundamental duty of the state. One could argue from a study of history that keeping people fed is the first and most fundamental duty of the state. I work on pandemics sometimes, so I'm going to argue that protecting us from pandemics is the first and most fundamental duty of the state.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,765

    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Dopermean said:

    FPT ref DavidL's comments on juries

    1) "pull jurors out of a hat" - my experience is being sorted into groups of 16 at the beginning of the week but it could just be done by computer in a matter of seconds once the juror register is complete
    2) Judge briefing the Jury on their duties and responsibilities - apart from case specific issues this is boilerplate. Could be online with a little quiz and declaration, e.g. "If I do my own research on the internet" will I a) be better briefed than the legal counsel, b) be helping my fellow jurors to understand the case or c) do 6 months d) all of the above?
    3) Check in advance whether witnesses need screens and prepare. In your cases I assume it's a given, so the screens should be there by default.

    None of the above has to be on the critical path.

    My experience is that if you're assigned to a trial in the morning then it's 11.30am by the time you're sat down, HHJ does his solemn briefing etc, now 12, they have a brief conflab and decide that there isn't time for 2 opening addresses before lunch, "jury will only remember one side", so break. 2pm before you're back in court in the afternoon, if Judge or barristers don't have an afternoon clash.

    There are delays around sending Juries out and reassembling them, but they can just be sent to the next room rather than allowed to disperse.

    Juries can be taken off the critical path for most of it. Leveson has just blamed them for the inefficiency of the professionals involved.

    There is no way 2 would work - most people will just fast forward the video or put it on and do something else
    Have all the jury prep etc run by court staff. The day before.

    Have jury prep as a courthouse function, run by staff. As a continual operation. Lining up juries, get them sorted, warned, lanyarded.

    So 9am, the judge, lawyers, etc all roll in together.

    Judge can have the option to say - “I don’t look this jury, do you have a similar one? But in a shade of mauve?”
    You're right, of course you're right, but you know the objections.

    Spending a bit more to get a lot more is still spending more, and we've conditioned ourselves to not want that.

    It's moving spending from frontline staff to backstage. And we've massively conditioned ourselves to not want that.
    Yet again on pb the most vociferous criticism of the removal of jury trials comes from the very same people who want to massively cut public spending and reduce public sector pay and benefits dramatically.

    The concept of we only get what we are willing to pay for seems to have completely passed them by.
    I have no idea if this is true, but it is rational for opinions to come in related sets, and opinions which don't arise in related ways lack an underlying coherence. Rather than turning the point into a meaningless (and maybe unverified) piece of ad hominem, it would be more useful to examine the relation of the set of opinions, and consider its worth.

    What is irrational about wanting to have a much smaller state while keeping the jury system? We had juries when we had a much smaller state. (I am not proposing either, personally, but there is nothing counter intuitive about it.)

    The frustration is the party led by this group of people have been in power most of my lifetime, and to be fair match the views of the electorate in not wanting to increase taxes.

    So we have court rooms out of use because of leaks, because we don't want to spend money.
    We have a lack of lawyers and judges, because we don't want to spend money.
    Our prisons can't cope, because we don't want to spend money.
    Prisoners come out early, without any thought of rehabilitation and commit more crime.

    Whilst I would prefer jury trials and functioning prisons myself, it does grate to hear the attacks on the status quo from the supporters of the establishment party with zero consideration of how we get here, or any serious thought on how we can change course and what resources that requires.
    Except for a very short time under Mrs T, public expenditure has risen throughout the last decades. The state in various forms manages 44% of total expenditure, over £40,000 per household, just a little short of the highest in Europe and in the middle of the developed pack. Despite that there is not a single area not crying out for much more spending. Something is wrong with the model, but it isn't that taxes are very significantly too low.
    We have no money

    Yet we are spending £700 million on saving a handful of salmon. Billions on an armoured vehicle that literally makes the occupants chronically ill. We can’t find GPs, while we train GPs who can’t get jobs. We have no money to look after children with special needs, but councils are block booking taxis to send them to school - as opposed to a school bus.

    It’s feast-or-famine mode spending. Often on insane things.
    This is the fault of the Treasury - insane budget rules where we seem to look at today and don't worry about tomorrow. The GP issue is a perfect example - we can't afford to hire them full time, but we can afford emergency cover. Or transport - can't afford a bus but can afford emergency cover.

    Do you get it yet? We cut because the Treasury says we must cut. But cuts to provision do not remove the need - which remains. And emergency provision must be done - from a separate budget - which costs more than the cut.

    I keep saying we need to invest in this stuff and be told we have no money. We do - we're literally burning it. Will need a short transition where we both burn cash and invest cash, but then no more bonfires.
    This post hits so hard. It seems like Westminster and Whitehall know it too, but won't do anything.
    I am utterly fucking sick of this stupidity. Its as bad up here as well. Winter snot season - schools asking parents to send their kids in with tissues as the school is running out. Teachers joking about wanting classroom supplies for presents from their kids instead of sweeties. There's literally no money at the front line - but we have schools with heating stuck on full so that everyone melts and windows need to keep being opened (in the summer as well!) because budget rules don't allow repairs when the school is scheduled for replacement in 2019.

    Bureaucrats drown in the micro whilst missing the macro and strategic. You can't the detail because the structure is wrong, but you can't spend money on the structure because you're spending too much money in emergency micro fixes.

    House building. Everyone agrees we need to build more houses but we're building less. Why?
    Land banking by developers
    Arcane endless planning regulations
    Housing Associations starved of resources
    A comprehensive lack of builders sparkies joiners plumbers plasterers etc etc - oh and we'd have to import much of the materiel because we've stopped making them because lack of money.
    But we can't import as we left the EU and they cost more. And we don't like all these forrin workers taking jobs from the untrained unwilling flag shagging fucks.

    FFS. Start at the strategic. OK, we need to build 1.5m houses the fuck yesterday.
    So we need to train the people who will build them. FE colleges here is cash. And a marketing campaign to make building cool
    We need to invest in a brickworks and other stuff - tax incentives to get manufacturing here
    We need to allow LHAs to borrow to build
    We need to bonfire the planning barriers
    We need to give the land bankers 6 months to start or lose the land
    All to build a flood of apartments and starter homes at a social rent as never for sale. Which allows a significant drop in % of wages wasted on rent which allows more money to circulate in the economy which means jobs and more taxes which pays back the investment in skills etc

    Will get any of that? Will we bollocks.
    Does anyone have any idea of the real cost to the country of the post-Grenfell building regulations ?

    A minor example:

    How much does it cost to replace two rotting windows in Britain in 2025?
    More than you might think
    https://www.samdumitriu.com/p/how-much-does-it-cost-to-replace
    But if we don’t triple the cost of replacing windows, by needing plan application consultants, because the forms are so complex… how will the consultants eat?

    Plus it will breach international law, human rights law, law of the sea, NATO, SEATO….
    Do the planning consultants actually want this work?

    It looks like tedious b*llocks that you charge silly money for because you don't really want to waste your life filling in stupid forms.

    If someone is desperate enough to pay you £1k+/day for it then you might reluctantly get out of bed.
    Planning Consultant - “Hmmm… this is boring shit. But I’ve paid off the mortgage. 2 days a week plus early retirement means endless holidays.”
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 5,522
    I was going to listen to the budget but on reflection it is only going to lead to a Ramipril prescription.

    I think I'll go out for a walk in the sun instead.

    I will face the Fiscal Drag Queen's mutterings later.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,714
    edited 11:53AM

    Lawyering, AI and rainbow flags in a couple of tweets. Presumably the poor soul was frightened by a bumless leather chaps wearing Pride marcher at an early age.

    https://x.com/peatworrier/status/1993329754791899420?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

    https://x.com/peatworrier/status/1993332238650577213?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

    That is a case brought in Scotland in re a bank branch in Herne Bay, too ... and, just for topicality as PW notes, using AI in the submission with the usual consequences.

    Judgement: https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/media/ygvbuemr/2025sacciv41-mark-jennings-v-natwest-group-plc.pdf
  • TazTaz Posts: 22,596

    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Dopermean said:

    FPT ref DavidL's comments on juries

    1) "pull jurors out of a hat" - my experience is being sorted into groups of 16 at the beginning of the week but it could just be done by computer in a matter of seconds once the juror register is complete
    2) Judge briefing the Jury on their duties and responsibilities - apart from case specific issues this is boilerplate. Could be online with a little quiz and declaration, e.g. "If I do my own research on the internet" will I a) be better briefed than the legal counsel, b) be helping my fellow jurors to understand the case or c) do 6 months d) all of the above?
    3) Check in advance whether witnesses need screens and prepare. In your cases I assume it's a given, so the screens should be there by default.

    None of the above has to be on the critical path.

    My experience is that if you're assigned to a trial in the morning then it's 11.30am by the time you're sat down, HHJ does his solemn briefing etc, now 12, they have a brief conflab and decide that there isn't time for 2 opening addresses before lunch, "jury will only remember one side", so break. 2pm before you're back in court in the afternoon, if Judge or barristers don't have an afternoon clash.

    There are delays around sending Juries out and reassembling them, but they can just be sent to the next room rather than allowed to disperse.

    Juries can be taken off the critical path for most of it. Leveson has just blamed them for the inefficiency of the professionals involved.

    There is no way 2 would work - most people will just fast forward the video or put it on and do something else
    Have all the jury prep etc run by court staff. The day before.

    Have jury prep as a courthouse function, run by staff. As a continual operation. Lining up juries, get them sorted, warned, lanyarded.

    So 9am, the judge, lawyers, etc all roll in together.

    Judge can have the option to say - “I don’t look this jury, do you have a similar one? But in a shade of mauve?”
    You're right, of course you're right, but you know the objections.

    Spending a bit more to get a lot more is still spending more, and we've conditioned ourselves to not want that.

    It's moving spending from frontline staff to backstage. And we've massively conditioned ourselves to not want that.
    Yet again on pb the most vociferous criticism of the removal of jury trials comes from the very same people who want to massively cut public spending and reduce public sector pay and benefits dramatically.

    The concept of we only get what we are willing to pay for seems to have completely passed them by.
    I have no idea if this is true, but it is rational for opinions to come in related sets, and opinions which don't arise in related ways lack an underlying coherence. Rather than turning the point into a meaningless (and maybe unverified) piece of ad hominem, it would be more useful to examine the relation of the set of opinions, and consider its worth.

    What is irrational about wanting to have a much smaller state while keeping the jury system? We had juries when we had a much smaller state. (I am not proposing either, personally, but there is nothing counter intuitive about it.)

    The frustration is the party led by this group of people have been in power most of my lifetime, and to be fair match the views of the electorate in not wanting to increase taxes.

    So we have court rooms out of use because of leaks, because we don't want to spend money.
    We have a lack of lawyers and judges, because we don't want to spend money.
    Our prisons can't cope, because we don't want to spend money.
    Prisoners come out early, without any thought of rehabilitation and commit more crime.

    Whilst I would prefer jury trials and functioning prisons myself, it does grate to hear the attacks on the status quo from the supporters of the establishment party with zero consideration of how we get here, or any serious thought on how we can change course and what resources that requires.
    Except for a very short time under Mrs T, public expenditure has risen throughout the last decades. The state in various forms manages 44% of total expenditure, over £40,000 per household, just a little short of the highest in Europe and in the middle of the developed pack. Despite that there is not a single area not crying out for much more spending. Something is wrong with the model, but it isn't that taxes are very significantly too low.
    We have no money

    Yet we are spending £700 million on saving a handful of salmon. Billions on an armoured vehicle that literally makes the occupants chronically ill. We can’t find GPs, while we train GPs who can’t get jobs. We have no money to look after children with special needs, but councils are block booking taxis to send them to school - as opposed to a school bus.

    It’s feast-or-famine mode spending. Often on insane things.
    This is the fault of the Treasury - insane budget rules where we seem to look at today and don't worry about tomorrow. The GP issue is a perfect example - we can't afford to hire them full time, but we can afford emergency cover. Or transport - can't afford a bus but can afford emergency cover.

    Do you get it yet? We cut because the Treasury says we must cut. But cuts to provision do not remove the need - which remains. And emergency provision must be done - from a separate budget - which costs more than the cut.

    I keep saying we need to invest in this stuff and be told we have no money. We do - we're literally burning it. Will need a short transition where we both burn cash and invest cash, but then no more bonfires.
    This post hits so hard. It seems like Westminster and Whitehall know it too, but won't do anything.
    I am utterly fucking sick of this stupidity. Its as bad up here as well. Winter snot season - schools asking parents to send their kids in with tissues as the school is running out. Teachers joking about wanting classroom supplies for presents from their kids instead of sweeties. There's literally no money at the front line - but we have schools with heating stuck on full so that everyone melts and windows need to keep being opened (in the summer as well!) because budget rules don't allow repairs when the school is scheduled for replacement in 2019.

    Bureaucrats drown in the micro whilst missing the macro and strategic. You can't the detail because the structure is wrong, but you can't spend money on the structure because you're spending too much money in emergency micro fixes.

    House building. Everyone agrees we need to build more houses but we're building less. Why?
    Land banking by developers
    Arcane endless planning regulations
    Housing Associations starved of resources
    A comprehensive lack of builders sparkies joiners plumbers plasterers etc etc - oh and we'd have to import much of the materiel because we've stopped making them because lack of money.
    But we can't import as we left the EU and they cost more. And we don't like all these forrin workers taking jobs from the untrained unwilling flag shagging fucks.

    FFS. Start at the strategic. OK, we need to build 1.5m houses the fuck yesterday.
    So we need to train the people who will build them. FE colleges here is cash. And a marketing campaign to make building cool
    We need to invest in a brickworks and other stuff - tax incentives to get manufacturing here
    We need to allow LHAs to borrow to build
    We need to bonfire the planning barriers
    We need to give the land bankers 6 months to start or lose the land
    All to build a flood of apartments and starter homes at a social rent as never for sale. Which allows a significant drop in % of wages wasted on rent which allows more money to circulate in the economy which means jobs and more taxes which pays back the investment in skills etc

    Will get any of that? Will we bollocks.
    Does anyone have any idea of the real cost to the country of the post-Grenfell building regulations ?

    A minor example:

    How much does it cost to replace two rotting windows in Britain in 2025?
    More than you might think
    https://www.samdumitriu.com/p/how-much-does-it-cost-to-replace
    How did that get through the Commons, and why isn't Parliament fixing it?
    Something must be done - this is something !
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,166
    Sean_F said:

    algarkirk said:

    Ironic that the 'BBC Verify' post in the live feed about the two child benefit cap and poverty uses the bullshit 'relative poverty' measure.

    You may not like it, that's fair enough, but it's a clear, objective, and widely used measure. Hardly something to criticise BBC Verify for.

    Out of interest what would you propose as the measure of poverty? Does a child need to be starving, in rags, no shoes?
    When we interrogate our idea of poverty it is always a relative concept at its core, because poverty is ultimately about being excluded from the normal patterns of consumption and participation in our current society. In my view it is so-called 'absolute' poverty measures that are bullshit.
    Not being able to 'keep up with the Joneses' in a neighbourhood pissing contest doesn't make someone poor. It makes them unable to afford an unnecessary and 'fashionable' splurging of cash you don't have on things you don't need. And the idea that should be subsidised by the taxpayer is just another tier in the cake of relative poverty bullshit.

    Edited: as an aside, I'll be AFK for the Budget, which is a shame but needs must.
    It's not about keeping up with Jones's. The point is that what we might consider an absolute poverty line now would be very different to the absolute poverty line 50 years ago, because we have different expectations about what constitutes a minimum standard of living, and these expectations are related to what we consider a normal standard of living. This is why I find the idea of some kind of objective and immutable poverty line fundamentally dishonest.
    As always it depends on what is done with the concept. Relative and absolute poverty are clearly different ideas. Relative poverty has the property of being more or less by definition ineradicable. Absolute poverty has the property of being a quantity of immiseration which is unacceptable when encountered, especially in children.

    Damage is done by leftists who elide relative poverty into something self evidently bad, when it is not self evident. Rightists do harm by insisting the real measure should be more like absolute poverty, which we should not contemplate for anyone. Imprecision and ambiguity is the permanent friend of lobbyists.
    If you define relative poverty as some fraction of median income then it needn't be ineradicable as long as the fraction is not too close to 1. This doesn't mean that we should necessarily seek to eradicate it - like any policy we should consider the balance of costs and benefits. Most likely the poor will always be with us.
    Personally I just think that people who advocate for 'absolute' poverty measures just haven't thought very deeply about what poverty really is or how we define it.
    I think that defining poverty as a % of median income is pretty meaningless.

    But, I would agree that definitions of poverty can and should rise over time. Subsistence is $3 per day, per person, but in a rich world country, you would want to define poverty well above that figure.
    You're going soft, Sean.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,785

    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Dopermean said:

    FPT ref DavidL's comments on juries

    1) "pull jurors out of a hat" - my experience is being sorted into groups of 16 at the beginning of the week but it could just be done by computer in a matter of seconds once the juror register is complete
    2) Judge briefing the Jury on their duties and responsibilities - apart from case specific issues this is boilerplate. Could be online with a little quiz and declaration, e.g. "If I do my own research on the internet" will I a) be better briefed than the legal counsel, b) be helping my fellow jurors to understand the case or c) do 6 months d) all of the above?
    3) Check in advance whether witnesses need screens and prepare. In your cases I assume it's a given, so the screens should be there by default.

    None of the above has to be on the critical path.

    My experience is that if you're assigned to a trial in the morning then it's 11.30am by the time you're sat down, HHJ does his solemn briefing etc, now 12, they have a brief conflab and decide that there isn't time for 2 opening addresses before lunch, "jury will only remember one side", so break. 2pm before you're back in court in the afternoon, if Judge or barristers don't have an afternoon clash.

    There are delays around sending Juries out and reassembling them, but they can just be sent to the next room rather than allowed to disperse.

    Juries can be taken off the critical path for most of it. Leveson has just blamed them for the inefficiency of the professionals involved.

    There is no way 2 would work - most people will just fast forward the video or put it on and do something else
    Have all the jury prep etc run by court staff. The day before.

    Have jury prep as a courthouse function, run by staff. As a continual operation. Lining up juries, get them sorted, warned, lanyarded.

    So 9am, the judge, lawyers, etc all roll in together.

    Judge can have the option to say - “I don’t look this jury, do you have a similar one? But in a shade of mauve?”
    You're right, of course you're right, but you know the objections.

    Spending a bit more to get a lot more is still spending more, and we've conditioned ourselves to not want that.

    It's moving spending from frontline staff to backstage. And we've massively conditioned ourselves to not want that.
    Yet again on pb the most vociferous criticism of the removal of jury trials comes from the very same people who want to massively cut public spending and reduce public sector pay and benefits dramatically.

    The concept of we only get what we are willing to pay for seems to have completely passed them by.
    I have no idea if this is true, but it is rational for opinions to come in related sets, and opinions which don't arise in related ways lack an underlying coherence. Rather than turning the point into a meaningless (and maybe unverified) piece of ad hominem, it would be more useful to examine the relation of the set of opinions, and consider its worth.

    What is irrational about wanting to have a much smaller state while keeping the jury system? We had juries when we had a much smaller state. (I am not proposing either, personally, but there is nothing counter intuitive about it.)

    The frustration is the party led by this group of people have been in power most of my lifetime, and to be fair match the views of the electorate in not wanting to increase taxes.

    So we have court rooms out of use because of leaks, because we don't want to spend money.
    We have a lack of lawyers and judges, because we don't want to spend money.
    Our prisons can't cope, because we don't want to spend money.
    Prisoners come out early, without any thought of rehabilitation and commit more crime.

    Whilst I would prefer jury trials and functioning prisons myself, it does grate to hear the attacks on the status quo from the supporters of the establishment party with zero consideration of how we get here, or any serious thought on how we can change course and what resources that requires.
    Except for a very short time under Mrs T, public expenditure has risen throughout the last decades. The state in various forms manages 44% of total expenditure, over £40,000 per household, just a little short of the highest in Europe and in the middle of the developed pack. Despite that there is not a single area not crying out for much more spending. Something is wrong with the model, but it isn't that taxes are very significantly too low.
    We have no money

    Yet we are spending £700 million on saving a handful of salmon. Billions on an armoured vehicle that literally makes the occupants chronically ill. We can’t find GPs, while we train GPs who can’t get jobs. We have no money to look after children with special needs, but councils are block booking taxis to send them to school - as opposed to a school bus.

    It’s feast-or-famine mode spending. Often on insane things.
    This is the fault of the Treasury - insane budget rules where we seem to look at today and don't worry about tomorrow. The GP issue is a perfect example - we can't afford to hire them full time, but we can afford emergency cover. Or transport - can't afford a bus but can afford emergency cover.

    Do you get it yet? We cut because the Treasury says we must cut. But cuts to provision do not remove the need - which remains. And emergency provision must be done - from a separate budget - which costs more than the cut.

    I keep saying we need to invest in this stuff and be told we have no money. We do - we're literally burning it. Will need a short transition where we both burn cash and invest cash, but then no more bonfires.
    This post hits so hard. It seems like Westminster and Whitehall know it too, but won't do anything.
    I am utterly fucking sick of this stupidity. Its as bad up here as well. Winter snot season - schools asking parents to send their kids in with tissues as the school is running out. Teachers joking about wanting classroom supplies for presents from their kids instead of sweeties. There's literally no money at the front line - but we have schools with heating stuck on full so that everyone melts and windows need to keep being opened (in the summer as well!) because budget rules don't allow repairs when the school is scheduled for replacement in 2019.

    Bureaucrats drown in the micro whilst missing the macro and strategic. You can't the detail because the structure is wrong, but you can't spend money on the structure because you're spending too much money in emergency micro fixes.

    House building. Everyone agrees we need to build more houses but we're building less. Why?
    Land banking by developers
    Arcane endless planning regulations
    Housing Associations starved of resources
    A comprehensive lack of builders sparkies joiners plumbers plasterers etc etc - oh and we'd have to import much of the materiel because we've stopped making them because lack of money.
    But we can't import as we left the EU and they cost more. And we don't like all these forrin workers taking jobs from the untrained unwilling flag shagging fucks.

    FFS. Start at the strategic. OK, we need to build 1.5m houses the fuck yesterday.
    So we need to train the people who will build them. FE colleges here is cash. And a marketing campaign to make building cool
    We need to invest in a brickworks and other stuff - tax incentives to get manufacturing here
    We need to allow LHAs to borrow to build
    We need to bonfire the planning barriers
    We need to give the land bankers 6 months to start or lose the land
    All to build a flood of apartments and starter homes at a social rent as never for sale. Which allows a significant drop in % of wages wasted on rent which allows more money to circulate in the economy which means jobs and more taxes which pays back the investment in skills etc

    Will get any of that? Will we bollocks.
    Does anyone have any idea of the real cost to the country of the post-Grenfell building regulations ?

    A minor example:

    How much does it cost to replace two rotting windows in Britain in 2025?
    More than you might think
    https://www.samdumitriu.com/p/how-much-does-it-cost-to-replace
    How did that get through the Commons, and why isn't Parliament fixing it?
    "Something must be done", post Grenfell, and it was something.

    It has greatly increased the building costs for everyone, and in many cases made little or no difference to actual building safety.
    A classic example of unnecessarily prescriptive rules-based regulation.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,803

    Roger said:

    They are already doing a post-mortem on the budget that hasn't even happened yet. This from the 10AM news

    "The Chancellor will drag a million more people into tax by raising the tax threshold though she herself criticised this in 2023..."

    Freezing the basic rate threshold further beyond 2028 will be politically damaging to Reeves, the more so as she explicitly said in November 2024 that she would not do that and is also on record as you point out for criticising the current freeze previously. And that makes me wonder if it is really her intention to do so. Having ensured by either design or accident that all the attention is back on income tax thresholds, an unexpected decision to not extend the Conservatives' freeze on the basic rate tax threshold and to continue to apply the freeze only to the higher rate rate tax thresholds would I think be politically astute and (barring some other unexpected big nasties) allow the budget to be framed with justification as one protecting living standards of working people on average incomes while limiting the pain to those on higher incomes. There are votes to be gained from that, especially from those whose support Labour has lost since 2024.

    That's not a prediction, because Reeves and Starmer have been so politically inept over the past 16 months that they may not appreciate both the danger and the opportunity. If they continue in that vein they really do deserve the boot from Labour MPs.
    OK, but where’s the money coming from in that case?

    She needs to raise much more, and only freezing the higher rate threshold won’t get her there.

    She’s being forced into freezing the thresholds as a necessity because she shied away from increasing the rates. There’s no other fiscal lever other than VAT (which she won’t touch, for the same reason) which is open to her to get the money in she wants.
    Two points in response.

    The initial cost to the Exchequer isn't as great as is being touted once you get past the rather silly convention of counting costs cumulatively over a period of several years. What we're talking about here is the extra cost of not extending the basic rate freeze only beyond 2028, presumably on the basis of inflation rates far lower than now. So in the first year that's a difference in the basic rate threshold of something in the ball park of £300, on which £60 tax would be paid at 20%. So with 37 million or so basic rate taxpayers the first year annual cost would be £2.2 billion. 2nd year annual cost £4.4.billion, 3rd year annual cost £6.6 billion. Reeves will not need to look much beyond that by the time of the next general election. So the cost isn't crippling to the Exchequer.

    There are plenty of other levers capable of raising £6bn or so annually by 2031. I'd start by looking at the scope of higher rate tax relief on pension contributions and/or CGT loopholes and rates. Not something to stir the loins of the average voter yet capable of raising far more over several years than the sums raised from a not-so-stealthy freeze of basic rate income tax thresholds.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,131

    Dopermean said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I am going out to lunch at a pub overlooking the estuary, while I still have the money to afford it.

    The existence of jury trials is NOT the reason for court delays. The reasons are:

    1. Reducing court sitting days even though the Lady Chief Justice has said judges can sit for more days so there is no lack of availability.
    2. Closure and selling of courts.
    3. A lack of sufficient funding for the justice system at every level.

    1 and 2 are easily remediable. You do not abolish an 800 year old fundamental principle because of a lack of short-term funding. Unless you're an illiberal cretin, that is.

    This is a power grab by the state of one of the few areas in British life which really is democratic, generally - though not invariably - works well and, crucially, is not controlled by the state and cannot be pressured by it. And can tell the state to get stuffed when it overreaches eg Ponting, the Colston Four. That is why authoritarians hate it and want to get rid of it. It must be resisted by all possible means.

    This proposal shows how much contempt Labour has for us and our liberties.

    Was Colston overreach? Not everyone agrees that its ok to vandalise things you don't like. I'd have preferred them found guilty but with a minimum penalty. I.e. they did the crime, but we understand and sympathise with why.
    Indeed see also the Labour councillor who was acquitted of hate speech. I support juries overall but when they render not guilty verdicts for political reasons rather than on the law the case for judge led verdicts in middle ranked offences grows. The escort rider who killed an elderly lady crossing the road at speed escorting the Duchess of Edinburgh might also have been convicted of death by careless driving by a judge which a jury acquitted him of
    Driving offences is an area where trial by jury is failing the victims, pick any 12 random people and there's probably 2 or 3 who think it's normal to text and speed.
    If the public at large think that people should be able to text and speed and that this is just an inherent risk of life, then that’s the jury system working as intended.
    Yes, in a democracy, you can't impose a law that the population (or a significantly large minority of the population) is opposed to. You have to change minds. The jury system is one of those backstops that prevents authoritarianism by requiring consent from the population for criminal law.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 38,604
    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Dopermean said:

    FPT ref DavidL's comments on juries

    1) "pull jurors out of a hat" - my experience is being sorted into groups of 16 at the beginning of the week but it could just be done by computer in a matter of seconds once the juror register is complete
    2) Judge briefing the Jury on their duties and responsibilities - apart from case specific issues this is boilerplate. Could be online with a little quiz and declaration, e.g. "If I do my own research on the internet" will I a) be better briefed than the legal counsel, b) be helping my fellow jurors to understand the case or c) do 6 months d) all of the above?
    3) Check in advance whether witnesses need screens and prepare. In your cases I assume it's a given, so the screens should be there by default.

    None of the above has to be on the critical path.

    My experience is that if you're assigned to a trial in the morning then it's 11.30am by the time you're sat down, HHJ does his solemn briefing etc, now 12, they have a brief conflab and decide that there isn't time for 2 opening addresses before lunch, "jury will only remember one side", so break. 2pm before you're back in court in the afternoon, if Judge or barristers don't have an afternoon clash.

    There are delays around sending Juries out and reassembling them, but they can just be sent to the next room rather than allowed to disperse.

    Juries can be taken off the critical path for most of it. Leveson has just blamed them for the inefficiency of the professionals involved.

    There is no way 2 would work - most people will just fast forward the video or put it on and do something else
    Have all the jury prep etc run by court staff. The day before.

    Have jury prep as a courthouse function, run by staff. As a continual operation. Lining up juries, get them sorted, warned, lanyarded.

    So 9am, the judge, lawyers, etc all roll in together.

    Judge can have the option to say - “I don’t look this jury, do you have a similar one? But in a shade of mauve?”
    You're right, of course you're right, but you know the objections.

    Spending a bit more to get a lot more is still spending more, and we've conditioned ourselves to not want that.

    It's moving spending from frontline staff to backstage. And we've massively conditioned ourselves to not want that.
    Yet again on pb the most vociferous criticism of the removal of jury trials comes from the very same people who want to massively cut public spending and reduce public sector pay and benefits dramatically.

    The concept of we only get what we are willing to pay for seems to have completely passed them by.
    I have no idea if this is true, but it is rational for opinions to come in related sets, and opinions which don't arise in related ways lack an underlying coherence. Rather than turning the point into a meaningless (and maybe unverified) piece of ad hominem, it would be more useful to examine the relation of the set of opinions, and consider its worth.

    What is irrational about wanting to have a much smaller state while keeping the jury system? We had juries when we had a much smaller state. (I am not proposing either, personally, but there is nothing counter intuitive about it.)

    The frustration is the party led by this group of people have been in power most of my lifetime, and to be fair match the views of the electorate in not wanting to increase taxes.

    So we have court rooms out of use because of leaks, because we don't want to spend money.
    We have a lack of lawyers and judges, because we don't want to spend money.
    Our prisons can't cope, because we don't want to spend money.
    Prisoners come out early, without any thought of rehabilitation and commit more crime.

    Whilst I would prefer jury trials and functioning prisons myself, it does grate to hear the attacks on the status quo from the supporters of the establishment party with zero consideration of how we get here, or any serious thought on how we can change course and what resources that requires.
    Except for a very short time under Mrs T, public expenditure has risen throughout the last decades. The state in various forms manages 44% of total expenditure, over £40,000 per household, just a little short of the highest in Europe and in the middle of the developed pack. Despite that there is not a single area not crying out for much more spending. Something is wrong with the model, but it isn't that taxes are very significantly too low.
    We have no money

    Yet we are spending £700 million on saving a handful of salmon. Billions on an armoured vehicle that literally makes the occupants chronically ill. We can’t find GPs, while we train GPs who can’t get jobs. We have no money to look after children with special needs, but councils are block booking taxis to send them to school - as opposed to a school bus.

    It’s feast-or-famine mode spending. Often on insane things.
    This is the fault of the Treasury - insane budget rules where we seem to look at today and don't worry about tomorrow. The GP issue is a perfect example - we can't afford to hire them full time, but we can afford emergency cover. Or transport - can't afford a bus but can afford emergency cover.

    Do you get it yet? We cut because the Treasury says we must cut. But cuts to provision do not remove the need - which remains. And emergency provision must be done - from a separate budget - which costs more than the cut.

    I keep saying we need to invest in this stuff and be told we have no money. We do - we're literally burning it. Will need a short transition where we both burn cash and invest cash, but then no more bonfires.
    This post hits so hard. It seems like Westminster and Whitehall know it too, but won't do anything.
    I am utterly fucking sick of this stupidity. Its as bad up here as well. Winter snot season - schools asking parents to send their kids in with tissues as the school is running out. Teachers joking about wanting classroom supplies for presents from their kids instead of sweeties. There's literally no money at the front line - but we have schools with heating stuck on full so that everyone melts and windows need to keep being opened (in the summer as well!) because budget rules don't allow repairs when the school is scheduled for replacement in 2019.

    Bureaucrats drown in the micro whilst missing the macro and strategic. You can't the detail because the structure is wrong, but you can't spend money on the structure because you're spending too much money in emergency micro fixes.

    House building. Everyone agrees we need to build more houses but we're building less. Why?
    Land banking by developers
    Arcane endless planning regulations
    Housing Associations starved of resources
    A comprehensive lack of builders sparkies joiners plumbers plasterers etc etc - oh and we'd have to import much of the materiel because we've stopped making them because lack of money.
    But we can't import as we left the EU and they cost more. And we don't like all these forrin workers taking jobs from the untrained unwilling flag shagging fucks.

    FFS. Start at the strategic. OK, we need to build 1.5m houses the fuck yesterday.
    So we need to train the people who will build them. FE colleges here is cash. And a marketing campaign to make building cool
    We need to invest in a brickworks and other stuff - tax incentives to get manufacturing here
    We need to allow LHAs to borrow to build
    We need to bonfire the planning barriers
    We need to give the land bankers 6 months to start or lose the land
    All to build a flood of apartments and starter homes at a social rent as never for sale. Which allows a significant drop in % of wages wasted on rent which allows more money to circulate in the economy which means jobs and more taxes which pays back the investment in skills etc

    Will get any of that? Will we bollocks.
    Does anyone have any idea of the real cost to the country of the post-Grenfell building regulations ?

    A minor example:

    How much does it cost to replace two rotting windows in Britain in 2025?
    More than you might think
    https://www.samdumitriu.com/p/how-much-does-it-cost-to-replace
    "The cost of replacing two-windows in Westminster in 2025

    Add it all together and the cost of replacing two rotten windows with new double-glazed windows is £15,816.

    That’s £5,000 for the windows themselves and just over £10,000 spent on persuading the state to let him put them in."
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,205

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Dopermean said:

    FPT ref DavidL's comments on juries

    1) "pull jurors out of a hat" - my experience is being sorted into groups of 16 at the beginning of the week but it could just be done by computer in a matter of seconds once the juror register is complete
    2) Judge briefing the Jury on their duties and responsibilities - apart from case specific issues this is boilerplate. Could be online with a little quiz and declaration, e.g. "If I do my own research on the internet" will I a) be better briefed than the legal counsel, b) be helping my fellow jurors to understand the case or c) do 6 months d) all of the above?
    3) Check in advance whether witnesses need screens and prepare. In your cases I assume it's a given, so the screens should be there by default.

    None of the above has to be on the critical path.

    My experience is that if you're assigned to a trial in the morning then it's 11.30am by the time you're sat down, HHJ does his solemn briefing etc, now 12, they have a brief conflab and decide that there isn't time for 2 opening addresses before lunch, "jury will only remember one side", so break. 2pm before you're back in court in the afternoon, if Judge or barristers don't have an afternoon clash.

    There are delays around sending Juries out and reassembling them, but they can just be sent to the next room rather than allowed to disperse.

    Juries can be taken off the critical path for most of it. Leveson has just blamed them for the inefficiency of the professionals involved.

    There is no way 2 would work - most people will just fast forward the video or put it on and do something else
    Have all the jury prep etc run by court staff. The day before.

    Have jury prep as a courthouse function, run by staff. As a continual operation. Lining up juries, get them sorted, warned, lanyarded.

    So 9am, the judge, lawyers, etc all roll in together.

    Judge can have the option to say - “I don’t look this jury, do you have a similar one? But in a shade of mauve?”
    You're right, of course you're right, but you know the objections.

    Spending a bit more to get a lot more is still spending more, and we've conditioned ourselves to not want that.

    It's moving spending from frontline staff to backstage. And we've massively conditioned ourselves to not want that.
    Yet again on pb the most vociferous criticism of the removal of jury trials comes from the very same people who want to massively cut public spending and reduce public sector pay and benefits dramatically.

    The concept of we only get what we are willing to pay for seems to have completely passed them by.
    I have no idea if this is true, but it is rational for opinions to come in related sets, and opinions which don't arise in related ways lack an underlying coherence. Rather than turning the point into a meaningless (and maybe unverified) piece of ad hominem, it would be more useful to examine the relation of the set of opinions, and consider its worth.

    What is irrational about wanting to have a much smaller state while keeping the jury system? We had juries when we had a much smaller state. (I am not proposing either, personally, but there is nothing counter intuitive about it.)

    The frustration is the party led by this group of people have been in power most of my lifetime, and to be fair match the views of the electorate in not wanting to increase taxes.

    So we have court rooms out of use because of leaks, because we don't want to spend money.
    We have a lack of lawyers and judges, because we don't want to spend money.
    Our prisons can't cope, because we don't want to spend money.
    Prisoners come out early, without any thought of rehabilitation and commit more crime.

    Whilst I would prefer jury trials and functioning prisons myself, it does grate to hear the attacks on the status quo from the supporters of the establishment party with zero consideration of how we get here, or any serious thought on how we can change course and what resources that requires.
    Except for a very short time under Mrs T, public expenditure has risen throughout the last decades. The state in various forms manages 44% of total expenditure, over £40,000 per household, just a little short of the highest in Europe and in the middle of the developed pack. Despite that there is not a single area not crying out for much more spending. Something is wrong with the model, but it isn't that taxes are very significantly too low.
    We have no money

    Yet we are spending £700 million on saving a handful of salmon. Billions on an armoured vehicle that literally makes the occupants chronically ill. We can’t find GPs, while we train GPs who can’t get jobs. We have no money to look after children with special needs, but councils are block booking taxis to send them to school - as opposed to a school bus.

    It’s feast-or-famine mode spending. Often on insane things.
    I had multiple encounters with primary care services yesterday, going with a friend and then needing to go myself. Not perfect, but I thought pretty good service all round!

    Anyway, I wanted to argue with your claim that "We have no money". We do have money. We could readily afford to pay 2p more in income tax. Whether that is a good policy and whether the government would spend the increased revenue responsibly is, of course, a matter of much debate. But it's possible. The nation isn't broke. It's not 1946.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,315
    OBR accidentally released their report before the budget

    Sky extraordinary move and never happened before

    Markets are responding accordingly
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 13,066

    Lawyering, AI and rainbow flags in a couple of tweets. Presumably the poor soul was frightened by a bumless leather chaps wearing Pride marcher at an early age.

    https://x.com/peatworrier/status/1993329754791899420?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

    https://x.com/peatworrier/status/1993332238650577213?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

    Ironically the use of AI like this is increasing, not decreasing, work for lawyers. I'm seeing more and more persuasive sounding but ultimately bollocks submissions from litigants in person.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,668

    Taz said:

    I so hope this happens for the giggles. It will make the bedwetting over MK Dons seem trivial by comparison.


    ‘ Sheffield United’s American owners made an enquiry in the sale of rivals Sheffield Wednesday

    It’s believed they wanted to explore a merger between the two clubs ⚔️🇺🇸🦉

    Sickening stuff🤢🤮’


    https://x.com/the_forty_four/status/1993436096848707966?s=61

    It makes sense though. Sheffield can't sustain two clubs other than bouncing around the Championship/Division 1. A single team might keep in the Premiership.

    The same should apply to Liverpool.

    And Manchester.
    What about Nottingham Forest and Notts County? There's only the River Trent between them. They could fill it in and merge the two grounds.
    Might as well be the Gulf between us, such is the gulf....
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,542
    Seems they've inadvertently put the budget out early

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cy8vz032qgpt#player
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,785
    Andy_JS said:

    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Dopermean said:

    FPT ref DavidL's comments on juries

    1) "pull jurors out of a hat" - my experience is being sorted into groups of 16 at the beginning of the week but it could just be done by computer in a matter of seconds once the juror register is complete
    2) Judge briefing the Jury on their duties and responsibilities - apart from case specific issues this is boilerplate. Could be online with a little quiz and declaration, e.g. "If I do my own research on the internet" will I a) be better briefed than the legal counsel, b) be helping my fellow jurors to understand the case or c) do 6 months d) all of the above?
    3) Check in advance whether witnesses need screens and prepare. In your cases I assume it's a given, so the screens should be there by default.

    None of the above has to be on the critical path.

    My experience is that if you're assigned to a trial in the morning then it's 11.30am by the time you're sat down, HHJ does his solemn briefing etc, now 12, they have a brief conflab and decide that there isn't time for 2 opening addresses before lunch, "jury will only remember one side", so break. 2pm before you're back in court in the afternoon, if Judge or barristers don't have an afternoon clash.

    There are delays around sending Juries out and reassembling them, but they can just be sent to the next room rather than allowed to disperse.

    Juries can be taken off the critical path for most of it. Leveson has just blamed them for the inefficiency of the professionals involved.

    There is no way 2 would work - most people will just fast forward the video or put it on and do something else
    Have all the jury prep etc run by court staff. The day before.

    Have jury prep as a courthouse function, run by staff. As a continual operation. Lining up juries, get them sorted, warned, lanyarded.

    So 9am, the judge, lawyers, etc all roll in together.

    Judge can have the option to say - “I don’t look this jury, do you have a similar one? But in a shade of mauve?”
    You're right, of course you're right, but you know the objections.

    Spending a bit more to get a lot more is still spending more, and we've conditioned ourselves to not want that.

    It's moving spending from frontline staff to backstage. And we've massively conditioned ourselves to not want that.
    Yet again on pb the most vociferous criticism of the removal of jury trials comes from the very same people who want to massively cut public spending and reduce public sector pay and benefits dramatically.

    The concept of we only get what we are willing to pay for seems to have completely passed them by.
    I have no idea if this is true, but it is rational for opinions to come in related sets, and opinions which don't arise in related ways lack an underlying coherence. Rather than turning the point into a meaningless (and maybe unverified) piece of ad hominem, it would be more useful to examine the relation of the set of opinions, and consider its worth.

    What is irrational about wanting to have a much smaller state while keeping the jury system? We had juries when we had a much smaller state. (I am not proposing either, personally, but there is nothing counter intuitive about it.)

    The frustration is the party led by this group of people have been in power most of my lifetime, and to be fair match the views of the electorate in not wanting to increase taxes.

    So we have court rooms out of use because of leaks, because we don't want to spend money.
    We have a lack of lawyers and judges, because we don't want to spend money.
    Our prisons can't cope, because we don't want to spend money.
    Prisoners come out early, without any thought of rehabilitation and commit more crime.

    Whilst I would prefer jury trials and functioning prisons myself, it does grate to hear the attacks on the status quo from the supporters of the establishment party with zero consideration of how we get here, or any serious thought on how we can change course and what resources that requires.
    Except for a very short time under Mrs T, public expenditure has risen throughout the last decades. The state in various forms manages 44% of total expenditure, over £40,000 per household, just a little short of the highest in Europe and in the middle of the developed pack. Despite that there is not a single area not crying out for much more spending. Something is wrong with the model, but it isn't that taxes are very significantly too low.
    We have no money

    Yet we are spending £700 million on saving a handful of salmon. Billions on an armoured vehicle that literally makes the occupants chronically ill. We can’t find GPs, while we train GPs who can’t get jobs. We have no money to look after children with special needs, but councils are block booking taxis to send them to school - as opposed to a school bus.

    It’s feast-or-famine mode spending. Often on insane things.
    This is the fault of the Treasury - insane budget rules where we seem to look at today and don't worry about tomorrow. The GP issue is a perfect example - we can't afford to hire them full time, but we can afford emergency cover. Or transport - can't afford a bus but can afford emergency cover.

    Do you get it yet? We cut because the Treasury says we must cut. But cuts to provision do not remove the need - which remains. And emergency provision must be done - from a separate budget - which costs more than the cut.

    I keep saying we need to invest in this stuff and be told we have no money. We do - we're literally burning it. Will need a short transition where we both burn cash and invest cash, but then no more bonfires.
    This post hits so hard. It seems like Westminster and Whitehall know it too, but won't do anything.
    I am utterly fucking sick of this stupidity. Its as bad up here as well. Winter snot season - schools asking parents to send their kids in with tissues as the school is running out. Teachers joking about wanting classroom supplies for presents from their kids instead of sweeties. There's literally no money at the front line - but we have schools with heating stuck on full so that everyone melts and windows need to keep being opened (in the summer as well!) because budget rules don't allow repairs when the school is scheduled for replacement in 2019.

    Bureaucrats drown in the micro whilst missing the macro and strategic. You can't the detail because the structure is wrong, but you can't spend money on the structure because you're spending too much money in emergency micro fixes.

    House building. Everyone agrees we need to build more houses but we're building less. Why?
    Land banking by developers
    Arcane endless planning regulations
    Housing Associations starved of resources
    A comprehensive lack of builders sparkies joiners plumbers plasterers etc etc - oh and we'd have to import much of the materiel because we've stopped making them because lack of money.
    But we can't import as we left the EU and they cost more. And we don't like all these forrin workers taking jobs from the untrained unwilling flag shagging fucks.

    FFS. Start at the strategic. OK, we need to build 1.5m houses the fuck yesterday.
    So we need to train the people who will build them. FE colleges here is cash. And a marketing campaign to make building cool
    We need to invest in a brickworks and other stuff - tax incentives to get manufacturing here
    We need to allow LHAs to borrow to build
    We need to bonfire the planning barriers
    We need to give the land bankers 6 months to start or lose the land
    All to build a flood of apartments and starter homes at a social rent as never for sale. Which allows a significant drop in % of wages wasted on rent which allows more money to circulate in the economy which means jobs and more taxes which pays back the investment in skills etc

    Will get any of that? Will we bollocks.
    Does anyone have any idea of the real cost to the country of the post-Grenfell building regulations ?

    A minor example:

    How much does it cost to replace two rotting windows in Britain in 2025?
    More than you might think
    https://www.samdumitriu.com/p/how-much-does-it-cost-to-replace
    "The cost of replacing two-windows in Westminster in 2025

    Add it all together and the cost of replacing two rotten windows with new double-glazed windows is £15,816.

    That’s £5,000 for the windows themselves and just over £10,000 spent on persuading the state to let him put them in."
    Of course he could simply have ignored the while lot and replaced the windows anyway - but if it then came to someone's notice, that might have proved even more expensive.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,131

    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Dopermean said:

    FPT ref DavidL's comments on juries

    1) "pull jurors out of a hat" - my experience is being sorted into groups of 16 at the beginning of the week but it could just be done by computer in a matter of seconds once the juror register is complete
    2) Judge briefing the Jury on their duties and responsibilities - apart from case specific issues this is boilerplate. Could be online with a little quiz and declaration, e.g. "If I do my own research on the internet" will I a) be better briefed than the legal counsel, b) be helping my fellow jurors to understand the case or c) do 6 months d) all of the above?
    3) Check in advance whether witnesses need screens and prepare. In your cases I assume it's a given, so the screens should be there by default.

    None of the above has to be on the critical path.

    My experience is that if you're assigned to a trial in the morning then it's 11.30am by the time you're sat down, HHJ does his solemn briefing etc, now 12, they have a brief conflab and decide that there isn't time for 2 opening addresses before lunch, "jury will only remember one side", so break. 2pm before you're back in court in the afternoon, if Judge or barristers don't have an afternoon clash.

    There are delays around sending Juries out and reassembling them, but they can just be sent to the next room rather than allowed to disperse.

    Juries can be taken off the critical path for most of it. Leveson has just blamed them for the inefficiency of the professionals involved.

    There is no way 2 would work - most people will just fast forward the video or put it on and do something else
    Have all the jury prep etc run by court staff. The day before.

    Have jury prep as a courthouse function, run by staff. As a continual operation. Lining up juries, get them sorted, warned, lanyarded.

    So 9am, the judge, lawyers, etc all roll in together.

    Judge can have the option to say - “I don’t look this jury, do you have a similar one? But in a shade of mauve?”
    You're right, of course you're right, but you know the objections.

    Spending a bit more to get a lot more is still spending more, and we've conditioned ourselves to not want that.

    It's moving spending from frontline staff to backstage. And we've massively conditioned ourselves to not want that.
    Yet again on pb the most vociferous criticism of the removal of jury trials comes from the very same people who want to massively cut public spending and reduce public sector pay and benefits dramatically.

    The concept of we only get what we are willing to pay for seems to have completely passed them by.
    I have no idea if this is true, but it is rational for opinions to come in related sets, and opinions which don't arise in related ways lack an underlying coherence. Rather than turning the point into a meaningless (and maybe unverified) piece of ad hominem, it would be more useful to examine the relation of the set of opinions, and consider its worth.

    What is irrational about wanting to have a much smaller state while keeping the jury system? We had juries when we had a much smaller state. (I am not proposing either, personally, but there is nothing counter intuitive about it.)

    The frustration is the party led by this group of people have been in power most of my lifetime, and to be fair match the views of the electorate in not wanting to increase taxes.

    So we have court rooms out of use because of leaks, because we don't want to spend money.
    We have a lack of lawyers and judges, because we don't want to spend money.
    Our prisons can't cope, because we don't want to spend money.
    Prisoners come out early, without any thought of rehabilitation and commit more crime.

    Whilst I would prefer jury trials and functioning prisons myself, it does grate to hear the attacks on the status quo from the supporters of the establishment party with zero consideration of how we get here, or any serious thought on how we can change course and what resources that requires.
    Except for a very short time under Mrs T, public expenditure has risen throughout the last decades. The state in various forms manages 44% of total expenditure, over £40,000 per household, just a little short of the highest in Europe and in the middle of the developed pack. Despite that there is not a single area not crying out for much more spending. Something is wrong with the model, but it isn't that taxes are very significantly too low.
    We have no money

    Yet we are spending £700 million on saving a handful of salmon. Billions on an armoured vehicle that literally makes the occupants chronically ill. We can’t find GPs, while we train GPs who can’t get jobs. We have no money to look after children with special needs, but councils are block booking taxis to send them to school - as opposed to a school bus.

    It’s feast-or-famine mode spending. Often on insane things.
    This is the fault of the Treasury - insane budget rules where we seem to look at today and don't worry about tomorrow. The GP issue is a perfect example - we can't afford to hire them full time, but we can afford emergency cover. Or transport - can't afford a bus but can afford emergency cover.

    Do you get it yet? We cut because the Treasury says we must cut. But cuts to provision do not remove the need - which remains. And emergency provision must be done - from a separate budget - which costs more than the cut.

    I keep saying we need to invest in this stuff and be told we have no money. We do - we're literally burning it. Will need a short transition where we both burn cash and invest cash, but then no more bonfires.
    This post hits so hard. It seems like Westminster and Whitehall know it too, but won't do anything.
    I am utterly fucking sick of this stupidity. Its as bad up here as well. Winter snot season - schools asking parents to send their kids in with tissues as the school is running out. Teachers joking about wanting classroom supplies for presents from their kids instead of sweeties. There's literally no money at the front line - but we have schools with heating stuck on full so that everyone melts and windows need to keep being opened (in the summer as well!) because budget rules don't allow repairs when the school is scheduled for replacement in 2019.

    Bureaucrats drown in the micro whilst missing the macro and strategic. You can't the detail because the structure is wrong, but you can't spend money on the structure because you're spending too much money in emergency micro fixes.

    House building. Everyone agrees we need to build more houses but we're building less. Why?
    Land banking by developers
    Arcane endless planning regulations
    Housing Associations starved of resources
    A comprehensive lack of builders sparkies joiners plumbers plasterers etc etc - oh and we'd have to import much of the materiel because we've stopped making them because lack of money.
    But we can't import as we left the EU and they cost more. And we don't like all these forrin workers taking jobs from the untrained unwilling flag shagging fucks.

    FFS. Start at the strategic. OK, we need to build 1.5m houses the fuck yesterday.
    So we need to train the people who will build them. FE colleges here is cash. And a marketing campaign to make building cool
    We need to invest in a brickworks and other stuff - tax incentives to get manufacturing here
    We need to allow LHAs to borrow to build
    We need to bonfire the planning barriers
    We need to give the land bankers 6 months to start or lose the land
    All to build a flood of apartments and starter homes at a social rent as never for sale. Which allows a significant drop in % of wages wasted on rent which allows more money to circulate in the economy which means jobs and more taxes which pays back the investment in skills etc

    Will get any of that? Will we bollocks.
    Does anyone have any idea of the real cost to the country of the post-Grenfell building regulations ?

    A minor example:

    How much does it cost to replace two rotting windows in Britain in 2025?
    More than you might think
    https://www.samdumitriu.com/p/how-much-does-it-cost-to-replace
    But if we don’t triple the cost of replacing windows, by needing plan application consultants, because the forms are so complex… how will the consultants eat?

    Plus it will breach international law, human rights law, law of the sea, NATO, SEATO….
    None of the individual steps are necessarily that objectionable, but the implementation is shockingly poor, and there seems to be no oversight to see whether the system is working as intended or needs to be amended.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,315
    Sky reading budget now from the published report

    Shocking leak apparently
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,007

    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    Dopermean said:

    FPT ref DavidL's comments on juries

    1) "pull jurors out of a hat" - my experience is being sorted into groups of 16 at the beginning of the week but it could just be done by computer in a matter of seconds once the juror register is complete
    2) Judge briefing the Jury on their duties and responsibilities - apart from case specific issues this is boilerplate. Could be online with a little quiz and declaration, e.g. "If I do my own research on the internet" will I a) be better briefed than the legal counsel, b) be helping my fellow jurors to understand the case or c) do 6 months d) all of the above?
    3) Check in advance whether witnesses need screens and prepare. In your cases I assume it's a given, so the screens should be there by default.

    None of the above has to be on the critical path.

    My experience is that if you're assigned to a trial in the morning then it's 11.30am by the time you're sat down, HHJ does his solemn briefing etc, now 12, they have a brief conflab and decide that there isn't time for 2 opening addresses before lunch, "jury will only remember one side", so break. 2pm before you're back in court in the afternoon, if Judge or barristers don't have an afternoon clash.

    There are delays around sending Juries out and reassembling them, but they can just be sent to the next room rather than allowed to disperse.

    Juries can be taken off the critical path for most of it. Leveson has just blamed them for the inefficiency of the professionals involved.

    There is no way 2 would work - most people will just fast forward the video or put it on and do something else
    Have all the jury prep etc run by court staff. The day before.

    Have jury prep as a courthouse function, run by staff. As a continual operation. Lining up juries, get them sorted, warned, lanyarded.

    So 9am, the judge, lawyers, etc all roll in together.

    Judge can have the option to say - “I don’t look this jury, do you have a similar one? But in a shade of mauve?”
    You're right, of course you're right, but you know the objections.

    Spending a bit more to get a lot more is still spending more, and we've conditioned ourselves to not want that.

    It's moving spending from frontline staff to backstage. And we've massively conditioned ourselves to not want that.
    Yet again on pb the most vociferous criticism of the removal of jury trials comes from the very same people who want to massively cut public spending and reduce public sector pay and benefits dramatically.

    The concept of we only get what we are willing to pay for seems to have completely passed them by.
    What utter twaddle. I have been consistent in my opposition to this proposal and have suggested both above and BTL ways to raise money.

    The justice system is the first and most fundamental duty of the state. This is not about saving money or not having the money to spend. It is a power grab by an illiberal and authoritarian minded bunch of third rate politicians with little understanding of or appreciation for our history, our freedoms and the fundamentals of a truly liberal democracy.
    Lawyer says the justice system is the first and most fundamental duty of the state! I bet we can find an army person to say that defence is the first and most fundamental duty of the state. One could argue from a study of history that keeping people fed is the first and most fundamental duty of the state. I work on pandemics sometimes, so I'm going to argue that protecting us from pandemics is the first and most fundamental duty of the state.
    Historically, most governments took the view that if the peasants suffered in famines, well, the population would always bounce back (although, they made an effort to keep people fed in the capital). But, internal and external security was always a priority.
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