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  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,955
    Roger said:

    Cookie said:

    Roger said:

    isam said:

    ❗ Conservative GAIN from Green

    Hale (Trafford) council by-election result:

    CON: 46.5% (+9.7)
    GRN: 38.1% (-9.6)
    REF: 8.1% (+8.1)
    LAB: 4.2% (-7.6)
    LDEM: 3.1% (-0.6)

    +/- 2024

    andrewteale.me.uk/previews


    https://x.com/britainelects/status/1991767290568683739?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I've lived in Hale. A place for WAGs not Greens.
    And also wealthy advertising execs! I know at least two in Hale who meet that description.
    Yes a few of those but lots of footballers. Roy Keene and Bryan Robson were my neighbours
    That's quite a midfield there.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,791

    Roger said:

    Why are the BBC not onto this?
    They’re cowed by the whole ‘bias’ clusterfuck. I sense avoidance of anything tricky is their default mode atm.
    I am furious that the BBC's Nick Eardley was hyper critical of Johnson after the Hallett Report. Surely in the interests of unbiased balance we should have had Chris Mason explaining how Currygate undermined Boris Johnson's COVID programme.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,955
    Something of an irony that the last redoubts of the Tory Party appear to be islands of wealthy Remainders.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,608
    Nigelb said:

    Not exactly.

    There are European companies putting up radar satellites doing similar stuff. Where Europe is way behind is on launch capability (and also, of course, semiconductor manufacturing capacity).

    And AWACS (or rather, cheaper alternatives like Saab's system) won't be obsolete for a decade or so. You can't yet do everything from 150 miles up.
    (Which is one reason the US is funding very low orbit 'air breathing' satellite development.)

    Right, Europe is behind, but not stuck in the past. People do get it. Reusable launch and large satellite constellations for defence purposes is the goal. Obviously we can't fix this overnight, but it doesn't mean we won't ever do so.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,791
    dixiedean said:

    Roger said:

    Cookie said:

    Roger said:

    isam said:

    ❗ Conservative GAIN from Green

    Hale (Trafford) council by-election result:

    CON: 46.5% (+9.7)
    GRN: 38.1% (-9.6)
    REF: 8.1% (+8.1)
    LAB: 4.2% (-7.6)
    LDEM: 3.1% (-0.6)

    +/- 2024

    andrewteale.me.uk/previews


    https://x.com/britainelects/status/1991767290568683739?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I've lived in Hale. A place for WAGs not Greens.
    And also wealthy advertising execs! I know at least two in Hale who meet that description.
    Yes a few of those but lots of footballers. Roy Keene and Bryan Robson were my neighbours
    That's quite a midfield there.
    A decent party on the cards there too, but imagine if a ruck broke out, there would be broken legs everywhere.*

    * I love Brian Robson ( boing, boing) but he was a tough ( dirty?) tackler.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,823

    Roger said:

    Why are the BBC not onto this?
    They’re cowed by the whole ‘bias’ clusterfuck. I sense avoidance of anything tricky is their default mode atm.
    I am furious that the BBC's Nick Eardley was hyper critical of Johnson after the Hallett Report. Surely in the interests of unbiased balance we should have had Chris Mason explaining how Currygate undermined Boris Johnson's COVID programme.
    No worries, I'll be straight in touch with Durham constabulary so they can investigate what crimes the BBC may have committed here.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,551
    edited 12:20PM

    Roger said:

    Why are the BBC not onto this?
    They’re cowed by the whole ‘bias’ clusterfuck. I sense avoidance of anything tricky is their default mode atm.
    I think that's possibly true.

    Their efforts this morning to emphasise Farage's distance from his felonious former sidekick Nathan Gill were commendably heroic.*
    They will likely pick this story up only after some other part of the mainstream media does.

    *To be fair to them, this, from the main site, is pretty even handed.
    Nigel Farage and Nathan Gill may have been close colleagues at the European Parliament, but police say there is no evidence that the Reform leader was aware of his friend's criminality.
    Farage has previously said he was "stunned" by the revelations. "I didn't know anything about it, all I knew was that he'd been to Ukraine", he said earlier this month.
    However the Nathan Gill bribery saga - with its links to Russia - is awkward for a leader and party whose critics have claimed are soft on Vladimir Putin.
    Farage has been dogged by accusations of sympathy for Putin since saying in 2014 that he "admired" the Russian president "as an operator".
    He has also been criticised for appearances on the state-controlled RT (Russia Today) television network.
    In 2022, Farage tweeted, external that Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine was "a consequence of EU and Nato expansion", which is Putin's longstanding position.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,075

    PJH said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Returning to London after a year in the countryside, the signs of societal collapse are everywhere - even at 7am
    By Amanda Williams"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-15311313/london-societal-collapse-amanda-williams.html

    Lol. What a load of crap.
    For those of us without a Daily Mail account, and who feel that our lives are the richer for not having one, what did it say?

    As someone who has lived in London for most of my life, and the same corner of it for the last 25 years, I don't recognise a lot of the descriptions I read, and certainly feel that much of London is far better than during most of my life, except for a general decline in the public realm over the past decade or so that I see everywhere else I visit too.
    It's a kind of modern Gin Lane account of walking through Kensington in the early hours of the morning, being scared of brown people, a random negative comment about the tube, seeing a prostitute buying some drugs, some obligatory hating on Sadiq Khan and contrasting it with the bucolic joy of the English countryside. She thinks American tourists must hate it here (weird how they keep coming) and takes a shot at the weather (also probably Khan's fault). A classic of the genre, basically.
    And all those tall buildings. Scary.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,609

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MattW said:

    TOPPING said:

    MattW said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh boo hoo. That's sovereignty, capitalism and the law right there. Which bit do you object to, that he can't google "pearl clutching"?
    Mmm no. It's an assault on law, international law, by Trump & Co - which started in around Feb/March following the pattern of Trump's assaults on Court Staff in his various trials in 2024.

    I'm interested if any UK parties have policies on this, and what my MP Lee Anderson would say (if he's heard of the ICC). Do the Tories have a defined view on the ICC?
    No such thing as international law.
    Radovan Karadžić says hello from HMP Parkhurst.
    There is international law just as long as countries want to abide by international law. If they decide for any reason that they don't want to, then international law ceases to exist.
    That's essentially the same basis on which all law exists. It's an entirely human-created construct that exists only so long as there are people and institutions willing to enforce it. So there's no distinction between international or domestic law in that respect.
    Yes and no. While there may be sanctions for breaking "international law" (or, more properly, for reneging on a previous agreement), they are not the same (they may be analogous) to me being banged up because I nicked all the vegan sausage rolls from Greggs at King's Cross station.
    The difference is surely that domestic law has a strongly (nearly universally) accepted means of enforcement, jurisdiction and interpretation/adjudication. Including an executive.

    International law is more woolly. Some people accept it, others don’t. Nobody has really settled on how it is enforced and adjudicated. And there is nothing approaching an international executive branch to implement it.

    (I should say some areas are a bit more advanced than others - eg shipping/laws of the sea).
    A lot of international law is very advanced. That's how we manage to have international trade and communications!
    Been around since, for example, the C12 Rolls of Oléron regulating international maritime trade ...
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,917
    Ok, matters prosaic. After years of doughty service my ‘living flame’ gas fire has given up the ghost. After picking myself up from the faint induced by the quote for its replacement (£4k) I’m considering alternatives for what is more a cosmetic than practical item. Has anyone tried those bioethanol stove type things - faff, messy, expensive to use, nasty looking etc?

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,609
    kinabalu said:

    PJH said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Returning to London after a year in the countryside, the signs of societal collapse are everywhere - even at 7am
    By Amanda Williams"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-15311313/london-societal-collapse-amanda-williams.html

    Lol. What a load of crap.
    For those of us without a Daily Mail account, and who feel that our lives are the richer for not having one, what did it say?

    As someone who has lived in London for most of my life, and the same corner of it for the last 25 years, I don't recognise a lot of the descriptions I read, and certainly feel that much of London is far better than during most of my life, except for a general decline in the public realm over the past decade or so that I see everywhere else I visit too.
    It's a kind of modern Gin Lane account of walking through Kensington in the early hours of the morning, being scared of brown people, a random negative comment about the tube, seeing a prostitute buying some drugs, some obligatory hating on Sadiq Khan and contrasting it with the bucolic joy of the English countryside. She thinks American tourists must hate it here (weird how they keep coming) and takes a shot at the weather (also probably Khan's fault). A classic of the genre, basically.
    And all those tall buildings. Scary.
    Did the packs of rabid urban foxes, and Hitchcockian bird flu-infested parakeets and ornamental geese, get a look in?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,705
    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    ❗ Conservative GAIN from Green

    Hale (Trafford) council by-election result:

    CON: 46.5% (+9.7)
    GRN: 38.1% (-9.6)
    REF: 8.1% (+8.1)
    LAB: 4.2% (-7.6)
    LDEM: 3.1% (-0.6)

    +/- 2024

    andrewteale.me.uk/previews


    https://x.com/britainelects/status/1991767290568683739?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    Fantastic result for the Conservatives in Trafford. Looks like Altrincham and Sale
    at least will be a Conservative gain at the next general election
    Perhaps. Hale is the sort of ward which ten years ago Con would have won at a canter. It's one of the mist affluent wards in the North West. It's not the sort of ward where the far left should be on 38%.
    I'm finding the current by-election climate quite depressing for the number of votes being garnered by the Greens.
    Hale was a Green held seat, they have just lost 10% and the seat since electing Polanski
    I know, but it's still mad that the far left are on nearly 40% of the vote in Hale. This is very, very affluent territory.
    The Greens did well in Hale and Altrincham a few years back by getting the nimby vote out against the Timperley Wedge/Davenport Green proposals.
    Not really given Trafford voted Remain
    I'd say Leave/Remain affected this result almost not at all. I just find it worrying that in one of the least left wing wards in the country, the far left got 40% of the vote. Because if they can get that in Hale they can get that anywhere.
    Half of the Green success in 2024 came in constituencies that weren't hard left, but were green-blue tinged. Husky huggers from before 2010.

    Whatever gains Polanski is making on the left, he's likely to lose some of those soft green/wet Conservative voters on the right.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,705

    Andy_JS said:

    "Returning to London after a year in the countryside, the signs of societal collapse are everywhere - even at 7am
    By Amanda Williams"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-15311313/london-societal-collapse-amanda-williams.html

    If you don't believe the judgment of the many pb-ers who live in London and none of whom even vaguely recognise this societal collapse, perhaps consider the judgment of the free market? People are still willing to pay half a million quid for a small two bed flat or a million quid for an ordinary terraced house in much of London, why would they do so if it was so bad?

    It is bonkers, outright fiction.
    And very on topic, if the question of the day is "why do voters believe things that just aren't true"?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 38,547
    "Why do cyclists go through red lights? We asked them
    More than 70 cyclists were spotted running one red light in London in just one hour this week — many on Lime hire bikes. They are now facing a crackdown" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/transport/article/cyclists-ride-red-lights-lime-k7b6r2npk
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,608
    TOPPING said:

    Meanwhile, what's with the Waitrose Christmas ads. Featuring British National Treasure Joe Wilkinson and Keira Knightley. Are they supposed to be funny or are they serious. If the former I'm struggling to find the humour, if the latter, super ick.

    A good pay day for both - and not much else.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,749
    dixiedean said:

    Roger said:

    Cookie said:

    Roger said:

    isam said:

    ❗ Conservative GAIN from Green

    Hale (Trafford) council by-election result:

    CON: 46.5% (+9.7)
    GRN: 38.1% (-9.6)
    REF: 8.1% (+8.1)
    LAB: 4.2% (-7.6)
    LDEM: 3.1% (-0.6)

    +/- 2024

    andrewteale.me.uk/previews


    https://x.com/britainelects/status/1991767290568683739?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    I've lived in Hale. A place for WAGs not Greens.
    And also wealthy advertising execs! I know at least two in Hale who meet that description.
    Yes a few of those but lots of footballers. Roy Keene and Bryan Robson were my neighbours
    That's quite a midfield there.
    I thought Roger played on the left wing ;)
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,964
    edited 12:38PM
    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is what happens when bandits and mafiosi like Trump and Netanyahu become political leaders. When is someone going to stand up to these criminals?
    It goes well beyond that, though (and the fact that it involves Israel isn't particularly relevant in the greater scheme of things.)

    It should be another wake up call for Europe (and that includes us) that depending on the US to the extent we do, both economically and militarily, involves a far greater loss of sovereignty than does (for example) membership of the EU.

    That people like Farage will likely applaud this, rather than recognise it for what it is, will indicate that they have no real interest in British sovereignty.
    Maybe the idiot judge should have thought about the consequences of targeting a US ally before getting caught up in the hard left anti-Semitism that drives all the nonsense against Jews having their own state.

    It's about time these judges in their ivory towers faced consequences for their idiotic decisions.
    Did you read the judgement? What part do you think is idiotic, as opposed to just disagreeing with it?

    I read some of it at the time, and, while I didn't agree with all of it, I thought it was pretty well-reasoned and grounded in the evidence and justified under the law myself.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,608
    Taz said:

    HYUFD said:

    'An unnamed star from Strictly Come Dancing has been arrested on suspicion of rape.

    Hertfordshire Police said the man, who was arrested last month, had been released on bail under investigation.'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgmgyrdlxdo

    Cue the tabloids listing all the recent Strictly male contestants who DON'T live in Hertfordshire....
    Isn’t it filmed in Hertfordshire ?
    You think the tabloids will worry about a detail like THAT?
  • FossFoss Posts: 2,113

    Andy_JS said:

    "Returning to London after a year in the countryside, the signs of societal collapse are everywhere - even at 7am
    By Amanda Williams"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-15311313/london-societal-collapse-amanda-williams.html

    If you don't believe the judgment of the many pb-ers who live in London and none of whom even vaguely recognise this societal collapse, perhaps consider the judgment of the free market? People are still willing to pay half a million quid for a small two bed flat or a million quid for an ordinary terraced house in much of London, why would they do so if it was so bad?

    It is bonkers, outright fiction.
    And very on topic, if the question of the day is "why do voters believe things that just aren't true"?
    The answer to that is very obvious. Extremely rich people pay billions for media, traditional and social, to lie to us.
    You forgot preachers and insurrectionary members of the middle class who want to replace the existing power blocks with one that includes them.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,075
    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    PJH said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Returning to London after a year in the countryside, the signs of societal collapse are everywhere - even at 7am
    By Amanda Williams"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-15311313/london-societal-collapse-amanda-williams.html

    Lol. What a load of crap.
    For those of us without a Daily Mail account, and who feel that our lives are the richer for not having one, what did it say?

    As someone who has lived in London for most of my life, and the same corner of it for the last 25 years, I don't recognise a lot of the descriptions I read, and certainly feel that much of London is far better than during most of my life, except for a general decline in the public realm over the past decade or so that I see everywhere else I visit too.
    It's a kind of modern Gin Lane account of walking through Kensington in the early hours of the morning, being scared of brown people, a random negative comment about the tube, seeing a prostitute buying some drugs, some obligatory hating on Sadiq Khan and contrasting it with the bucolic joy of the English countryside. She thinks American tourists must hate it here (weird how they keep coming) and takes a shot at the weather (also probably Khan's fault). A classic of the genre, basically.
    And all those tall buildings. Scary.
    Did the packs of rabid urban foxes, and Hitchcockian bird flu-infested parakeets and ornamental geese, get a look in?
    Lol, I imagine so.

    The 'London is terrible' meme has been around for as long as can remember. Three drivers, I'd say:

    1. Backdoor envy. It means 'wish I could live there'.
    2. Parochial xenophobia. It means 'multicultural equals shithole'.
    3. Ageing. It means 'I'm too old for all that'.

    Number 2 is what I think is behind it when it's coming from the Populist Right.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,749
    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is what happens when bandits and mafiosi like Trump and Netanyahu become political leaders. When is someone going to stand up to these criminals?
    It goes well beyond that, though (and the fact that it involves Israel isn't particularly relevant in the greater scheme of things.)

    It should be another wake up call for Europe (and that includes us) that depending on the US to the extent we do, both economically and militarily, involves a far greater loss of sovereignty than does (for example) membership of the EU.

    That people like Farage will likely applaud this, rather than recognise it for what it is, will indicate that they have no real interest in British sovereignty.
    Maybe the idiot judge should have thought about the consequences of targeting a US ally before getting caught up in the hard left anti-Semitism that drives all the nonsense against Jews having their own state.

    It's about time these judges in their ivory towers faced consequences for their idiotic decisions.
    I thought the whole point of judges was that they are supposed to be unbiased and not influenced by what powerful friends an accused might have. Or isn't that the way the law is supposed to work?

    And besides, if we are saying that having the US President as a friend protects one frpm being accused of a crime then that gets most of the world's leading despots off the hook these days. And much of the white collar criminal fraternity in the US.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,791
    Nathan Gill sentencing ongoing.

    Listening to another Brexit enthusiast asking questions in the European Parliament, both this guy and Gill cautioned about "poking the Russian bear".

    And in other entirely unrelated news, I wonder what would happen if a serving Foreign Secretary shook off his minders to attend a party (also attended by call girls) thrown by a KGB grandee. Although because that would be such a scandalous outrage, I doubt it would or could ever happen.
  • KnightOutKnightOut Posts: 224

    Andy_JS said:

    "Returning to London after a year in the countryside, the signs of societal collapse are everywhere - even at 7am
    By Amanda Williams"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-15311313/london-societal-collapse-amanda-williams.html

    If you don't believe the judgment of the many pb-ers who live in London and none of whom even vaguely recognise this societal collapse, perhaps consider the judgment of the free market? People are still willing to pay half a million quid for a small two bed flat or a million quid for an ordinary terraced house in much of London, why would they do so if it was so bad?

    It is bonkers, outright fiction.
    And very on topic, if the question of the day is "why do voters believe things that just aren't true"?
    Because belief *is* truth. Experiential conviction trumps 'objective reality' and nothing that occurs without its occurrence being perceived and experienced is of any value. Or something.

    Reality is fundamentally an internalisation; one that differs for each individual and is ultimately subjective. Trying to make arguments based on a universal and objective truth is usually a fools errand, because if something doesn't 'feel' true to someone, it may as well not be true.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,705
    kinabalu said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    PJH said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Returning to London after a year in the countryside, the signs of societal collapse are everywhere - even at 7am
    By Amanda Williams"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-15311313/london-societal-collapse-amanda-williams.html

    Lol. What a load of crap.
    For those of us without a Daily Mail account, and who feel that our lives are the richer for not having one, what did it say?

    As someone who has lived in London for most of my life, and the same corner of it for the last 25 years, I don't recognise a lot of the descriptions I read, and certainly feel that much of London is far better than during most of my life, except for a general decline in the public realm over the past decade or so that I see everywhere else I visit too.
    It's a kind of modern Gin Lane account of walking through Kensington in the early hours of the morning, being scared of brown people, a random negative comment about the tube, seeing a prostitute buying some drugs, some obligatory hating on Sadiq Khan and contrasting it with the bucolic joy of the English countryside. She thinks American tourists must hate it here (weird how they keep coming) and takes a shot at the weather (also probably Khan's fault). A classic of the genre, basically.
    And all those tall buildings. Scary.
    Did the packs of rabid urban foxes, and Hitchcockian bird flu-infested parakeets and ornamental geese, get a look in?
    Lol, I imagine so.

    The 'London is terrible' meme has been around for as long as can remember. Three drivers, I'd say:

    1. Backdoor envy. It means 'wish I could live there'.
    2. Parochial xenophobia. It means 'multicultural equals shithole'.
    3. Ageing. It means 'I'm too old for all that'.

    Number 2 is what I think is behind it when it's coming from the Populist Right.
    For newspapers (overwhelmingly read by older people), there's a fair bit of point 3 as well. And telling your readership "Everything is awful. Read us to find out how awful" is surprisingly good marketing.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,657

    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    FPT

    Sandpit said:

    I am finding it very hard to get het up by the Covid report. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Yes we know that shagger was the worst possible leader in a time of crisis. But good men, better men, competent men are also just as capable of inaction when faced with "that can't be right" data.

    I am more interested in what we can change next time than calling for vengeance against people who have long since been booted out of office.

    I think most of us could have predicted most of that report about five years ago.

    Politicians all crap, civil servants all wonderful, no lessons to learn, now write the nine-figure cheque for the lawyers writing the report please.

    Now, if they could produce a report from the perspective of something like a transport accident investigation, going into detail about what led to the decisions that were made, what might be done differently next time, and with comparison of approaches taken in other countries, that one might be worth reading.
    Yep - lessons can be learnt, doesn't help when you don't say what bits looking backwards could be used to implement restrictions earlier.

    without that information and without knowing what else works we could well end up implement restrictions for 45 of the next 0 pandemics.
    What restrictions, though ?

    Face masks, for example, greatly lower the transmission rate for any respiratory virus.

    Compared with even the shortest lockdown, they are a minor imposition - and in some countries just ordinary practice.

    Better ventilation has similar health benefits for relatively minor costs.

    The other lesson which ought to be learned was the benefit of cheap rapid tests for infection, once developed.

    We wasted tens of billions on PCR 'gold standard' testing which was almost completely ineffective in changing outcomes.
    Cheap self-administered tests, widely adopted, could completely avoid the need for any lockdown in the future (and could have been far better used earlier in this pandemic).

    I haven't read the report, but if it hasn't adopted a cost/benefit analysis as its fundamental framework, then it is a waste of time.
    (Apart from the necessary conformation of what a crap PM was Boris - though we didn't need to spend £200m to know that.)
    The big dog that has not barked in the night time, although it might by Sunday, is the defence of Boris ‘he got the big calls right’ Johnson or the Conservative government in general – or the devolved governments. One less king across the water for Kemi to worry about.
    I mentioned the anti-A/C thing in planning yesterday.

    The units I use - which chill/heat the air in the room, using a liquid loop to the outside air - have a HEPA filter in them.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,791
    edited 12:53PM
    Gill gets consecutive terms so at least sixteen years, but with mitigation 14 years plus pleading guilty with a further 25% discount ( possibly).

    Total sentence of 10 and a half years.

    I don't believe Farage ever heard of him until today.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,251
    The judgement on Gill is correscating as he is sentenced 10 and a half years

    Well done @Mexicanpete for highlighting this outrageous case
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,551
    edited 12:57PM

    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    FPT

    Sandpit said:

    I am finding it very hard to get het up by the Covid report. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Yes we know that shagger was the worst possible leader in a time of crisis. But good men, better men, competent men are also just as capable of inaction when faced with "that can't be right" data.

    I am more interested in what we can change next time than calling for vengeance against people who have long since been booted out of office.

    I think most of us could have predicted most of that report about five years ago.

    Politicians all crap, civil servants all wonderful, no lessons to learn, now write the nine-figure cheque for the lawyers writing the report please.

    Now, if they could produce a report from the perspective of something like a transport accident investigation, going into detail about what led to the decisions that were made, what might be done differently next time, and with comparison of approaches taken in other countries, that one might be worth reading.
    Yep - lessons can be learnt, doesn't help when you don't say what bits looking backwards could be used to implement restrictions earlier.

    without that information and without knowing what else works we could well end up implement restrictions for 45 of the next 0 pandemics.
    What restrictions, though ?

    Face masks, for example, greatly lower the transmission rate for any respiratory virus.

    Compared with even the shortest lockdown, they are a minor imposition - and in some countries just ordinary practice.

    Better ventilation has similar health benefits for relatively minor costs.

    The other lesson which ought to be learned was the benefit of cheap rapid tests for infection, once developed.

    We wasted tens of billions on PCR 'gold standard' testing which was almost completely ineffective in changing outcomes.
    Cheap self-administered tests, widely adopted, could completely avoid the need for any lockdown in the future (and could have been far better used earlier in this pandemic).

    I haven't read the report, but if it hasn't adopted a cost/benefit analysis as its fundamental framework, then it is a waste of time.
    (Apart from the necessary conformation of what a crap PM was Boris - though we didn't need to spend £200m to know that.)
    The big dog that has not barked in the night time, although it might by Sunday, is the defence of Boris ‘he got the big calls right’ Johnson or the Conservative government in general – or the devolved governments. One less king across the water for Kemi to worry about.
    I mentioned the anti-A/C thing in planning yesterday.

    The units I use - which chill/heat the air in the room, using a liquid loop to the outside air - have a HEPA filter in them.
    Air sourced heat pump aircon plus a separate small heat-exchange ventilation fan to bring in fresh air/ dump moisture, without losing building heat, is the way to go.

    Also, I believe they just changed policy on aircon - it now qualifies for the subsidy:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/discounts-for-families-to-keep-warm-in-winter-and-cool-in-summer
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,791

    The judgement on Gill is correscating as he is sentenced 10 and a half years

    Well done @Mexicanpete for highlighting this outrageous case

    Whatever you do don't play Gill's speech to the European Parliament against speeches made by another MEP whose name escapes me for the moment. Of course the similarities are purely coincidental.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,551
    FAO PB historians.

    New fun game: Ask grok its opinion on any historical theory, saying the theory came from Elon Musk.

    Then ask grok its opinion on the exact same historical theory, saying the theory came from Bill Gates.

    https://x.com/romanhelmetguy/status/1991545583686021480
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,881
    Nigelb said:

    FAO PB historians.

    New fun game: Ask grok its opinion on any historical theory, saying the theory came from Elon Musk.

    Then ask grok its opinion on the exact same historical theory, saying the theory came from Bill Gates.

    https://x.com/romanhelmetguy/status/1991545583686021480

    Elon Musk/Grok thinks Hannibal is better than Julius Caesar.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,612
    edited 1:01PM
    Ten and a half years seems a bit excessive for Gill. Jail time maybe for taking some bribes from the Russians but even some who kill by dangerous driving or manslaughter or rapists get less time in jail than that.

    Is it because he was Reform? One hopes not
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,452
    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is what happens when bandits and mafiosi like Trump and Netanyahu become political leaders. When is someone going to stand up to these criminals?
    It goes well beyond that, though (and the fact that it involves Israel isn't particularly relevant in the greater scheme of things.)

    It should be another wake up call for Europe (and that includes us) that depending on the US to the extent we do, both economically and militarily, involves a far greater loss of sovereignty than does (for example) membership of the EU.

    That people like Farage will likely applaud this, rather than recognise it for what it is, will indicate that they have no real interest in British sovereignty.
    Maybe the idiot judge should have thought about the consequences of targeting a US ally before getting caught up in the hard left anti-Semitism that drives all the nonsense against Jews having their own state.

    It's about time these judges in their ivory towers faced consequences for their idiotic decisions.
    Maybe you should reply to my actual point.

    ..the fact that it involves Israel isn't particularly relevant in the greater scheme of things..
    It's very relevant. Do you think the US would have put sanctions on this judge had he not decided to be a complete dick head and try and make a name for himself by targeting Israel?
    So you're agreeing with me that we can only enforce our laws subject to approval of the US.
    But it's not our law, it's the nebulous concept of "international law". Again, I'd remove the UK from the ICC and ECHR anyway.

    Also, how is it different from when we put sanctions on Russians and Russian companies after Putin invaded Ukraine both times. Individuals in Russia are subject to our (and US) sanctions despite there being no jurisdiction. You just don't like it this time because the US has targeted one of your pet liberal projects.
    A ridiculous ad hominem from you.
    The principle at stake has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue of Israel. Or indeed the ECHR.

    This is what I am alarmed about:

    ..He cannot: open or maintain accounts with Google, Amazon, Apple, or any US company; make hotel reservations (Expedia canceled his booking in France hours after he made it); conduct online commerce, since he can't know if the packaging is American; use any major credit card (Visa, Mastercard, Amex are all American); access normal banking services, even with non-American banks, as banks worldwide close sanctioned accounts; conduct virtually any financial transaction.

    He describes it as being "economically banned across most of the planet," including in his own country, France, and where he works, the Netherlands.

    That's the real shocking aspect of this: the Americans are:
    - punishing a European citizen
    - for doing his job in Europe
    - applying laws Europe officially supports
    - at an institution based in Europe
    - that Europe helped create and fund

    and Europe is not only doing essentially nothing to protect him, they're actively enforcing America's sanctions against their own citizen - European banks closing his accounts, European companies refusing him service, European institutions standing by while Washington destroys a European judge's life on European soil...


    That you can't appreciate that this is about practical sovereignty is a clear demonstration that you don't really care about our own sovereignty.
    This is essentially the Putinist argument against the existing world order.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,881

    The judgement on Gill is correscating as he is sentenced 10 and a half years

    Well done @Mexicanpete for highlighting this outrageous case

    Two tier justice.

    John Amery should be the guideline for sentencing here.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,964
    edited 1:02PM
    kinabalu said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    PJH said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Returning to London after a year in the countryside, the signs of societal collapse are everywhere - even at 7am
    By Amanda Williams"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-15311313/london-societal-collapse-amanda-williams.html

    Lol. What a load of crap.
    For those of us without a Daily Mail account, and who feel that our lives are the richer for not having one, what did it say?

    As someone who has lived in London for most of my life, and the same corner of it for the last 25 years, I don't recognise a lot of the descriptions I read, and certainly feel that much of London is far better than during most of my life, except for a general decline in the public realm over the past decade or so that I see everywhere else I visit too.
    It's a kind of modern Gin Lane account of walking through Kensington in the early hours of the morning, being scared of brown people, a random negative comment about the tube, seeing a prostitute buying some drugs, some obligatory hating on Sadiq Khan and contrasting it with the bucolic joy of the English countryside. She thinks American tourists must hate it here (weird how they keep coming) and takes a shot at the weather (also probably Khan's fault). A classic of the genre, basically.
    And all those tall buildings. Scary.
    Did the packs of rabid urban foxes, and Hitchcockian bird flu-infested parakeets and ornamental geese, get a look in?
    Lol, I imagine so.

    The 'London is terrible' meme has been around for as long as can remember. Three drivers, I'd say:

    1. Backdoor envy. It means 'wish I could live there'.
    2. Parochial xenophobia. It means 'multicultural equals shithole'.
    3. Ageing. It means 'I'm too old for all that'.

    Number 2 is what I think is behind it when it's coming from the Populist Right.
    No, it's driven by genuine problems, which London has in abundance - staggeringly expensive housing, higher poverty levels than any other region in southern England, a dismal one-party city government led by a classic machine politician, a national government that regards it, like they regard anywhere remotely successful, as an ATM, high levels of certain types of property crime and a police force which has given up on them, unwanted immigrants dumped in previously cohesive communities for decades without consultation or consent, etc. etc.

    But it ignores London's huge strengths, in particular its character, resilience and vitality which make it, despite its problems, one of the world's great cities. So, like most media these days, it presents just one side of a much more nuanced picture, just because that gets the clicks.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,791

    The judgement on Gill is correscating as he is sentenced 10 and a half years

    Well done @Mexicanpete for highlighting this outrageous case

    Top billing on R4 WATO. Well blow me down with a feather. Although Sarah is off on a Friday.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,075

    kinabalu said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    PJH said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Returning to London after a year in the countryside, the signs of societal collapse are everywhere - even at 7am
    By Amanda Williams"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-15311313/london-societal-collapse-amanda-williams.html

    Lol. What a load of crap.
    For those of us without a Daily Mail account, and who feel that our lives are the richer for not having one, what did it say?

    As someone who has lived in London for most of my life, and the same corner of it for the last 25 years, I don't recognise a lot of the descriptions I read, and certainly feel that much of London is far better than during most of my life, except for a general decline in the public realm over the past decade or so that I see everywhere else I visit too.
    It's a kind of modern Gin Lane account of walking through Kensington in the early hours of the morning, being scared of brown people, a random negative comment about the tube, seeing a prostitute buying some drugs, some obligatory hating on Sadiq Khan and contrasting it with the bucolic joy of the English countryside. She thinks American tourists must hate it here (weird how they keep coming) and takes a shot at the weather (also probably Khan's fault). A classic of the genre, basically.
    And all those tall buildings. Scary.
    Did the packs of rabid urban foxes, and Hitchcockian bird flu-infested parakeets and ornamental geese, get a look in?
    Lol, I imagine so.

    The 'London is terrible' meme has been around for as long as can remember. Three drivers, I'd say:

    1. Backdoor envy. It means 'wish I could live there'.
    2. Parochial xenophobia. It means 'multicultural equals shithole'.
    3. Ageing. It means 'I'm too old for all that'.

    Number 2 is what I think is behind it when it's coming from the Populist Right.
    For newspapers (overwhelmingly read by older people), there's a fair bit of point 3 as well. And telling your readership "Everything is awful. Read us to find out how awful" is surprisingly good marketing.
    Yes. Tbf I'm knocking on and found Fortnums a bit of a challenge yesterday. Pretty crowded. You'd like to settle in and browse but it wasn't conducive to that. Case of quick in and out for the Christmas biscuits.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,473
    edited 1:03PM
    "A malignancy at the heart of Reform" BBC News at One

    Haven't we known that for years?


  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,450

    Gill gets consecutive terms so at least sixteen years, but with mitigation 14 years plus pleading guilty with a further 25% discount ( possibly).

    Total sentence of 10 and a half years.

    I don't believe Farage ever heard of him until today.

    How interesting. I wonder what Farage was doing with HIS apparently similar questions in the EU parliament about Russia.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,984
    edited 1:04PM
    Roger said:

    "A maqlignancyb at the heart of Reform" BBC News at One


    Didn't they feature in one of the early Dr Who series?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,612
    Reform gain a rural Stratford on Avon seat
    https://x.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1991841083689734562?s=20
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,791
    FF43 said:

    Gill gets consecutive terms so at least sixteen years, but with mitigation 14 years plus pleading guilty with a further 25% discount ( possibly).

    Total sentence of 10 and a half years.

    I don't believe Farage ever heard of him until today.

    How interesting. I wonder what Farage was doing with HIS apparently similar questions in the EU parliament about Russia.
    Purely coincidental.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,618
    Back, for a moment, to pandemics, like Covid:

    Density, diversity, and globalization. All three have advantages; all three make it more difficult to prevent, and cope with, pandemics.

    I assume the first and third are obvious, but the second may not be. Different peoples have different endemic diseases; when you bring those different peoples together, they infect each other. If we want to think clearly about preventing and coping with pandemics, we need to recognize the potential health costs of all three.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,791

    The judgement on Gill is correscating as he is sentenced 10 and a half years

    Well done @Mexicanpete for highlighting this outrageous case

    Two tier justice.

    John Amery should be the guideline for sentencing here.
    Wouldn't we have to leave the ECHR to get that outcome?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,649
    Wow 10.5 years for Gill .

    I didn’t expect that long a sentence .
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,823
    Fishing said:

    kinabalu said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    PJH said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Returning to London after a year in the countryside, the signs of societal collapse are everywhere - even at 7am
    By Amanda Williams"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-15311313/london-societal-collapse-amanda-williams.html

    Lol. What a load of crap.
    For those of us without a Daily Mail account, and who feel that our lives are the richer for not having one, what did it say?

    As someone who has lived in London for most of my life, and the same corner of it for the last 25 years, I don't recognise a lot of the descriptions I read, and certainly feel that much of London is far better than during most of my life, except for a general decline in the public realm over the past decade or so that I see everywhere else I visit too.
    It's a kind of modern Gin Lane account of walking through Kensington in the early hours of the morning, being scared of brown people, a random negative comment about the tube, seeing a prostitute buying some drugs, some obligatory hating on Sadiq Khan and contrasting it with the bucolic joy of the English countryside. She thinks American tourists must hate it here (weird how they keep coming) and takes a shot at the weather (also probably Khan's fault). A classic of the genre, basically.
    And all those tall buildings. Scary.
    Did the packs of rabid urban foxes, and Hitchcockian bird flu-infested parakeets and ornamental geese, get a look in?
    Lol, I imagine so.

    The 'London is terrible' meme has been around for as long as can remember. Three drivers, I'd say:

    1. Backdoor envy. It means 'wish I could live there'.
    2. Parochial xenophobia. It means 'multicultural equals shithole'.
    3. Ageing. It means 'I'm too old for all that'.

    Number 2 is what I think is behind it when it's coming from the Populist Right.
    No, it's driven by genuine problems, which London has in abundance - staggeringly expensive housing, higher poverty levels than any other region in southern England, a dismal one-party city government led by a classic machine politician, a national government that regards it, like they regard anywhere remotely successful, as an ATM, high levels of certain types of property crime and a police force which has given up on them, unwanted immigrants dumped in previously cohesive communities for decades without consultation or consent, etc. etc.

    But it ignores London's huge strengths, in particular its character, resilience and vitality which make it, despite its problems, one of the world's great cities. So, like most media these days, it presents just one side of a much more nuanced picture, just because that gets the clicks.
    Nonsense. If it is one of the worlds great cities, it is not in the middle of societal collapse, is it?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,251

    The judgement on Gill is correscating as he is sentenced 10 and a half years

    Well done @Mexicanpete for highlighting this outrageous case

    Whatever you do don't play Gill's speech to the European Parliament against speeches made by another MEP whose name escapes me for the moment. Of course the similarities are purely coincidental.
    To be fair I listened to the whole of the judges comments and I had no idea how extensive his pro Russia anti Ukraine stance was and you were right to draw attention to it

    It fell under the radar until now, but it is national news and hopefully damages Farage and Reform
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,251
    nico67 said:

    Wow 10.5 years for Gill .

    I didn’t expect that long a sentence .

    Listening to the judge he got away lightly in my opinion
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,355
    nico67 said:

    Wow 10.5 years for Gill .

    I didn’t expect that long a sentence .

    Won't be opening the batting for India any time soon :D
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,251
    Roger said:

    "A malignancy at the heart of Reform" BBC News at One

    Haven't we known that for years?


    Not according to the polling unfortunately
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,791
    HYUFD said:

    Reform gain a rural Stratford on Avon seat
    https://x.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1991841083689734562?s=20

    It's more greater Redditch in geography than Stratford on Avon.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,791
    nico67 said:

    Wow 10.5 years for Gill .

    I didn’t expect that long a sentence .

    At one stage it was looking like sixteen years.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,657
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    FPT

    Sandpit said:

    I am finding it very hard to get het up by the Covid report. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Yes we know that shagger was the worst possible leader in a time of crisis. But good men, better men, competent men are also just as capable of inaction when faced with "that can't be right" data.

    I am more interested in what we can change next time than calling for vengeance against people who have long since been booted out of office.

    I think most of us could have predicted most of that report about five years ago.

    Politicians all crap, civil servants all wonderful, no lessons to learn, now write the nine-figure cheque for the lawyers writing the report please.

    Now, if they could produce a report from the perspective of something like a transport accident investigation, going into detail about what led to the decisions that were made, what might be done differently next time, and with comparison of approaches taken in other countries, that one might be worth reading.
    Yep - lessons can be learnt, doesn't help when you don't say what bits looking backwards could be used to implement restrictions earlier.

    without that information and without knowing what else works we could well end up implement restrictions for 45 of the next 0 pandemics.
    What restrictions, though ?

    Face masks, for example, greatly lower the transmission rate for any respiratory virus.

    Compared with even the shortest lockdown, they are a minor imposition - and in some countries just ordinary practice.

    Better ventilation has similar health benefits for relatively minor costs.

    The other lesson which ought to be learned was the benefit of cheap rapid tests for infection, once developed.

    We wasted tens of billions on PCR 'gold standard' testing which was almost completely ineffective in changing outcomes.
    Cheap self-administered tests, widely adopted, could completely avoid the need for any lockdown in the future (and could have been far better used earlier in this pandemic).

    I haven't read the report, but if it hasn't adopted a cost/benefit analysis as its fundamental framework, then it is a waste of time.
    (Apart from the necessary conformation of what a crap PM was Boris - though we didn't need to spend £200m to know that.)
    The big dog that has not barked in the night time, although it might by Sunday, is the defence of Boris ‘he got the big calls right’ Johnson or the Conservative government in general – or the devolved governments. One less king across the water for Kemi to worry about.
    I mentioned the anti-A/C thing in planning yesterday.

    The units I use - which chill/heat the air in the room, using a liquid loop to the outside air - have a HEPA filter in them.
    Air sourced heat pump aircon plus a separate small heat-exchange ventilation fan to bring in fresh air/ dump moisture, without losing building heat, is the way to go.

    Also, I believe they just changed policy on aircon - it now qualifies for the subsidy:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/discounts-for-families-to-keep-warm-in-winter-and-cool-in-summer
    It’s been VAT free for a long time.

    But planning regulations try to discourage A/C
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,791
    FF43 said:

    Gill gets consecutive terms so at least sixteen years, but with mitigation 14 years plus pleading guilty with a further 25% discount ( possibly).

    Total sentence of 10 and a half years.

    I don't believe Farage ever heard of him until today.

    How interesting. I wonder what Farage was doing with HIS apparently similar questions in the EU parliament about Russia.
    "Don't poke the Russian bear!"

    An absolute coincidence.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,649

    nico67 said:

    Wow 10.5 years for Gill .

    I didn’t expect that long a sentence .

    At one stage it was looking like sixteen years.
    Shame Farage wasn’t in the dock . He’s been a Putin stooge for years .
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,450

    FF43 said:

    Gill gets consecutive terms so at least sixteen years, but with mitigation 14 years plus pleading guilty with a further 25% discount ( possibly).

    Total sentence of 10 and a half years.

    I don't believe Farage ever heard of him until today.

    How interesting. I wonder what Farage was doing with HIS apparently similar questions in the EU parliament about Russia.
    Purely coincidental.
    Must be that. Gill was paid by the Russians for asking questions in parliament, and has more been locked away for ten years. Farage hasn't. Naturally.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,251
    HYUFD said:

    Ten and a half years seems a bit excessive for Gill. Jail time maybe for taking some bribes from the Russians but even some who kill by dangerous driving or manslaughter or rapists get less time in jail than that.

    Is it because he was Reform? One hopes not

    Utter and complete rubbish

    I assume you didn't listen to the judgement on how he helped Putin and was anti Ukraine

    He was lucky to get only 10 and a half years as he corrupted politics across Europe

    I genuinely hope this damages pro Putin Farage and his Reform mob
  • glwglw Posts: 10,608
    nico67 said:

    Wow 10.5 years for Gill .

    I didn’t expect that long a sentence .

    It should be the bare minimum for such conduct.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,918
    HYUFD said:

    Ten and a half years seems a bit excessive for Gill. Jail time maybe for taking some bribes from the Russians but even some who kill by dangerous driving or manslaughter or rapists get less time in jail than that.

    Is it because he was Reform? One hopes not

    "pour encourager les autres"

    Which seems fair enough to me.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,075
    edited 1:14PM
    Fishing said:

    kinabalu said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    PJH said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Returning to London after a year in the countryside, the signs of societal collapse are everywhere - even at 7am
    By Amanda Williams"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-15311313/london-societal-collapse-amanda-williams.html

    Lol. What a load of crap.
    For those of us without a Daily Mail account, and who feel that our lives are the richer for not having one, what did it say?

    As someone who has lived in London for most of my life, and the same corner of it for the last 25 years, I don't recognise a lot of the descriptions I read, and certainly feel that much of London is far better than during most of my life, except for a general decline in the public realm over the past decade or so that I see everywhere else I visit too.
    It's a kind of modern Gin Lane account of walking through Kensington in the early hours of the morning, being scared of brown people, a random negative comment about the tube, seeing a prostitute buying some drugs, some obligatory hating on Sadiq Khan and contrasting it with the bucolic joy of the English countryside. She thinks American tourists must hate it here (weird how they keep coming) and takes a shot at the weather (also probably Khan's fault). A classic of the genre, basically.
    And all those tall buildings. Scary.
    Did the packs of rabid urban foxes, and Hitchcockian bird flu-infested parakeets and ornamental geese, get a look in?
    Lol, I imagine so.

    The 'London is terrible' meme has been around for as long as can remember. Three drivers, I'd say:

    1. Backdoor envy. It means 'wish I could live there'.
    2. Parochial xenophobia. It means 'multicultural equals shithole'.
    3. Ageing. It means 'I'm too old for all that'.

    Number 2 is what I think is behind it when it's coming from the Populist Right.
    No, it's driven by genuine problems, which London has in abundance - staggeringly expensive housing, higher poverty levels than any other region in southern England, a dismal one-party city government led by a classic machine politician, a national government that regards it, like they regard anywhere remotely successful, as an ATM, high levels of certain types of property crime and a police force which has given up on them, unwanted immigrants dumped in previously cohesive communities for decades without consultation or consent, etc. etc.

    But it ignores London's huge strengths, in particular its character, resilience and vitality which make it, despite its problems, one of the world's great cities. So, like most media these days, it presents just one side of a much more nuanced picture, just because that gets the clicks.
    But why is the populist right so keen to push the 'London is a toilet' fiction? I think it's to draw a link between immigration and societal decline and strife. That's the button being pressed.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,612
    edited 1:13PM

    The judgement on Gill is correscating as he is sentenced 10 and a half years

    Well done @Mexicanpete for highlighting this outrageous case

    Two tier justice.

    John Amery should be the guideline for sentencing here.
    Amery created a volunteer Waffen SS unit. Though like any good Chelsea born old Harrovian would do whose father was Secretary of State for India and whose brother was an MP and Eton and Oxford educated son in law of Macmillan took his hanging like a man, imposed under the government of fellow old Harrovian Churchill.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,881

    The judgement on Gill is correscating as he is sentenced 10 and a half years

    Well done @Mexicanpete for highlighting this outrageous case

    Two tier justice.

    John Amery should be the guideline for sentencing here.
    Wouldn't we have to leave the ECHR to get that outcome?
    It’s utter woke nonsense that has saved him.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,608
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    PJH said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Returning to London after a year in the countryside, the signs of societal collapse are everywhere - even at 7am
    By Amanda Williams"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-15311313/london-societal-collapse-amanda-williams.html

    Lol. What a load of crap.
    For those of us without a Daily Mail account, and who feel that our lives are the richer for not having one, what did it say?

    As someone who has lived in London for most of my life, and the same corner of it for the last 25 years, I don't recognise a lot of the descriptions I read, and certainly feel that much of London is far better than during most of my life, except for a general decline in the public realm over the past decade or so that I see everywhere else I visit too.
    It's a kind of modern Gin Lane account of walking through Kensington in the early hours of the morning, being scared of brown people, a random negative comment about the tube, seeing a prostitute buying some drugs, some obligatory hating on Sadiq Khan and contrasting it with the bucolic joy of the English countryside. She thinks American tourists must hate it here (weird how they keep coming) and takes a shot at the weather (also probably Khan's fault). A classic of the genre, basically.
    And all those tall buildings. Scary.
    Did the packs of rabid urban foxes, and Hitchcockian bird flu-infested parakeets and ornamental geese, get a look in?
    Lol, I imagine so.

    The 'London is terrible' meme has been around for as long as can remember. Three drivers, I'd say:

    1. Backdoor envy. It means 'wish I could live there'.
    2. Parochial xenophobia. It means 'multicultural equals shithole'.
    3. Ageing. It means 'I'm too old for all that'.

    Number 2 is what I think is behind it when it's coming from the Populist Right.
    For newspapers (overwhelmingly read by older people), there's a fair bit of point 3 as well. And telling your readership "Everything is awful. Read us to find out how awful" is surprisingly good marketing.
    Yes. Tbf I'm knocking on and found Fortnums a bit of a challenge yesterday. Pretty crowded. You'd like to settle in and browse but it wasn't conducive to that. Case of quick in and out for the Christmas biscuits.
    Christmas biscuits is what their website is for...
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,917

    Gill gets consecutive terms so at least sixteen years, but with mitigation 14 years plus pleading guilty with a further 25% discount ( possibly).

    Total sentence of 10 and a half years.

    I don't believe Farage ever heard of him until today.

    Nathan must be eminently forgettable.

    https://tinyurl.com/3k52rnk9
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,473
    I suppose an exchange for Farage is out of the question?
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 7,753
    HYUFD said:

    Ten and a half years seems a bit excessive for Gill. Jail time maybe for taking some bribes from the Russians but even some who kill by dangerous driving or manslaughter or rapists get less time in jail than that.

    Is it because he was Reform? One hopes not

    No, I don't think it's because he was Reform. It's because he was a Traitor.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,791

    HYUFD said:

    Ten and a half years seems a bit excessive for Gill. Jail time maybe for taking some bribes from the Russians but even some who kill by dangerous driving or manslaughter or rapists get less time in jail than that.

    Is it because he was Reform? One hopes not

    Utter and complete rubbish

    I assume you didn't listen to the judgement on how he helped Putin and was anti Ukraine

    He was lucky to get only 10 and a half years as he corrupted politics across Europe

    I genuinely hope this damages pro Putin Farage and his Reform mob
    Gill was a lone wolf. I can't imagine any other Reformy types have ever shilled for Putin...
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 26,617
    edited 1:21PM

    TOPPING said:

    MattW said:

    TOPPING said:

    MattW said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh boo hoo. That's sovereignty, capitalism and the law right there. Which bit do you object to, that he can't google "pearl clutching"?
    Mmm no. It's an assault on law, international law, by Trump & Co - which started in around Feb/March following the pattern of Trump's assaults on Court Staff in his various trials in 2024.

    I'm interested if any UK parties have policies on this, and what my MP Lee Anderson would say (if he's heard of the ICC). Do the Tories have a defined view on the ICC?
    No such thing as international law.
    Radovan Karadžić says hello from HMP Parkhurst.
    There is international law just as long as countries want to abide by international law. If they decide for any reason that they don't want to, then international law ceases to exist.
    That's essentially the same basis on which all law exists. It's an entirely human-created construct that exists only so long as there are people and institutions willing to enforce it. So there's no distinction between international or domestic law in that respect.
    The distinction is that domestic law has domestic elections so if we disagree with the law then we can kick out the politicians and elect new ones to change it. Furthermore no Parliament can bind its successors.

    International law does not.

    Domestic law is democratic. It has a mandate.
    International law is not.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,649
    The 28 point plan is essentially the surrender document with added grifting by the WH .

    Disgraceful is putting it mildly .
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 7,753
    By the way, Bobbie Cheema-Grubb is a fantastic name for a Judge.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,609

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    PJH said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Returning to London after a year in the countryside, the signs of societal collapse are everywhere - even at 7am
    By Amanda Williams"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-15311313/london-societal-collapse-amanda-williams.html

    Lol. What a load of crap.
    For those of us without a Daily Mail account, and who feel that our lives are the richer for not having one, what did it say?

    As someone who has lived in London for most of my life, and the same corner of it for the last 25 years, I don't recognise a lot of the descriptions I read, and certainly feel that much of London is far better than during most of my life, except for a general decline in the public realm over the past decade or so that I see everywhere else I visit too.
    It's a kind of modern Gin Lane account of walking through Kensington in the early hours of the morning, being scared of brown people, a random negative comment about the tube, seeing a prostitute buying some drugs, some obligatory hating on Sadiq Khan and contrasting it with the bucolic joy of the English countryside. She thinks American tourists must hate it here (weird how they keep coming) and takes a shot at the weather (also probably Khan's fault). A classic of the genre, basically.
    And all those tall buildings. Scary.
    Did the packs of rabid urban foxes, and Hitchcockian bird flu-infested parakeets and ornamental geese, get a look in?
    Lol, I imagine so.

    The 'London is terrible' meme has been around for as long as can remember. Three drivers, I'd say:

    1. Backdoor envy. It means 'wish I could live there'.
    2. Parochial xenophobia. It means 'multicultural equals shithole'.
    3. Ageing. It means 'I'm too old for all that'.

    Number 2 is what I think is behind it when it's coming from the Populist Right.
    For newspapers (overwhelmingly read by older people), there's a fair bit of point 3 as well. And telling your readership "Everything is awful. Read us to find out how awful" is surprisingly good marketing.
    Yes. Tbf I'm knocking on and found Fortnums a bit of a challenge yesterday. Pretty crowded. You'd like to settle in and browse but it wasn't conducive to that. Case of quick in and out for the Christmas biscuits.
    Christmas biscuits is what their website is for...
    Patum Peperium. MY mother used to give it to me for Christmas to take back to wherever I was studying/working.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,462
    edited 1:21PM
    Andy_JS said:

    "Why do cyclists go through red lights? We asked them
    More than 70 cyclists were spotted running one red light in London in just one hour this week — many on Lime hire bikes. They are now facing a crackdown" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/transport/article/cyclists-ride-red-lights-lime-k7b6r2npk

    About bloody time.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,609
    edited 1:23PM

    TOPPING said:

    MattW said:

    TOPPING said:

    MattW said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh boo hoo. That's sovereignty, capitalism and the law right there. Which bit do you object to, that he can't google "pearl clutching"?
    Mmm no. It's an assault on law, international law, by Trump & Co - which started in around Feb/March following the pattern of Trump's assaults on Court Staff in his various trials in 2024.

    I'm interested if any UK parties have policies on this, and what my MP Lee Anderson would say (if he's heard of the ICC). Do the Tories have a defined view on the ICC?
    No such thing as international law.
    Radovan Karadžić says hello from HMP Parkhurst.
    There is international law just as long as countries want to abide by international law. If they decide for any reason that they don't want to, then international law ceases to exist.
    That's essentially the same basis on which all law exists. It's an entirely human-created construct that exists only so long as there are people and institutions willing to enforce it. So there's no distinction between international or domestic law in that respect.
    The distinction is that domestic law has domestic elections so if we disagree with the law then we can kick out the politicians and elect new ones to change it. Furthermore no Parliament can bind its successors.

    International law does not.

    Domestic law is democratic. It has a mandate.
    International law is not.
    As your namesake would argue for the Laws of Oleron and all maritime law. Spoils the fun, not being allowed to engage in violent theft, mass murder and stringing up from the yardarm.
  • isamisam Posts: 43,048
    Keir Starmer putting his best foot forward on the world stage 🤦‍♂️

    https://x.com/conservatives/status/1991838642223096134?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,612

    HYUFD said:

    Ten and a half years seems a bit excessive for Gill. Jail time maybe for taking some bribes from the Russians but even some who kill by dangerous driving or manslaughter or rapists get less time in jail than that.

    Is it because he was Reform? One hopes not

    Utter and complete rubbish

    I assume you didn't listen to the judgement on how he helped Putin and was anti Ukraine

    He was lucky to get only 10 and a half years as he corrupted politics across Europe

    I genuinely hope this damages pro Putin Farage and his Reform mob
    Did he disclose lots of sensitive intelligence to Putin? no. Did he sent vast quantities of funds to Russia? No. Did he fight on the battlefield with Russia? No.

    He made some pro Putin speeches and interviews he was bribed for. A 5 year sentence would have sufficed
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,831

    Roger said:

    "A maqlignancyb at the heart of Reform" BBC News at One

    Didn't they feature in one of the early Dr Who series?
    It's more Klingon, tbh
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,462
    kinabalu said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    PJH said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Returning to London after a year in the countryside, the signs of societal collapse are everywhere - even at 7am
    By Amanda Williams"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-15311313/london-societal-collapse-amanda-williams.html

    Lol. What a load of crap.
    For those of us without a Daily Mail account, and who feel that our lives are the richer for not having one, what did it say?

    As someone who has lived in London for most of my life, and the same corner of it for the last 25 years, I don't recognise a lot of the descriptions I read, and certainly feel that much of London is far better than during most of my life, except for a general decline in the public realm over the past decade or so that I see everywhere else I visit too.
    It's a kind of modern Gin Lane account of walking through Kensington in the early hours of the morning, being scared of brown people, a random negative comment about the tube, seeing a prostitute buying some drugs, some obligatory hating on Sadiq Khan and contrasting it with the bucolic joy of the English countryside. She thinks American tourists must hate it here (weird how they keep coming) and takes a shot at the weather (also probably Khan's fault). A classic of the genre, basically.
    And all those tall buildings. Scary.
    Did the packs of rabid urban foxes, and Hitchcockian bird flu-infested parakeets and ornamental geese, get a look in?
    Lol, I imagine so.

    The 'London is terrible' meme has been around for as long as can remember. Three drivers, I'd say:

    1. Backdoor envy. It means 'wish I could live there'.
    2. Parochial xenophobia. It means 'multicultural equals shithole'.
    3. Ageing. It means 'I'm too old for all that'.

    Number 2 is what I think is behind it when it's coming from the Populist Right.
    There is a legitimate concern in some part of London of neighbourhoods' character changing. "White flight" as I believe it is called. Now, don't get me wrong. Walking down the Costa del Sol there's nothing I like better than a row of Spoons, Harry Ramsden's chippies, and sports bars showing Coventry vs Stoke on its five TV screens, but some say that it is an okay thing to want to preserve the character (ofc people vary on their choice of T= 0).

    From my perspective, I don't mind if leafy suburbs, previously the preserve of the intelligentsia and literary types, are opened up to loadsamoney oiks who've made it in the City but you have to understand how some people think.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,791
    isam said:

    Keir Starmer putting his best foot forward on the world stage 🤦‍♂️

    https://x.com/conservatives/status/1991838642223096134?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    What a bastard. Today is Nathan Gill's day and Starmer has just stolen top billing headlines from him and Farage.

    Perhaps the Conservative Party have their priority wrong today too.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,291
    carnforth said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ten and a half years seems a bit excessive for Gill. Jail time maybe for taking some bribes from the Russians but even some who kill by dangerous driving or manslaughter or rapists get less time in jail than that.

    Is it because he was Reform? One hopes not

    No, I don't think it's because he was Reform. It's because he was a Traitor.
    How did he get found out?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,291
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    PJH said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Returning to London after a year in the countryside, the signs of societal collapse are everywhere - even at 7am
    By Amanda Williams"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-15311313/london-societal-collapse-amanda-williams.html

    Lol. What a load of crap.
    For those of us without a Daily Mail account, and who feel that our lives are the richer for not having one, what did it say?

    As someone who has lived in London for most of my life, and the same corner of it for the last 25 years, I don't recognise a lot of the descriptions I read, and certainly feel that much of London is far better than during most of my life, except for a general decline in the public realm over the past decade or so that I see everywhere else I visit too.
    It's a kind of modern Gin Lane account of walking through Kensington in the early hours of the morning, being scared of brown people, a random negative comment about the tube, seeing a prostitute buying some drugs, some obligatory hating on Sadiq Khan and contrasting it with the bucolic joy of the English countryside. She thinks American tourists must hate it here (weird how they keep coming) and takes a shot at the weather (also probably Khan's fault). A classic of the genre, basically.
    And all those tall buildings. Scary.
    Did the packs of rabid urban foxes, and Hitchcockian bird flu-infested parakeets and ornamental geese, get a look in?
    Lol, I imagine so.

    The 'London is terrible' meme has been around for as long as can remember. Three drivers, I'd say:

    1. Backdoor envy. It means 'wish I could live there'.
    2. Parochial xenophobia. It means 'multicultural equals shithole'.
    3. Ageing. It means 'I'm too old for all that'.

    Number 2 is what I think is behind it when it's coming from the Populist Right.
    There is a legitimate concern in some part of London of neighbourhoods' character changing. "White flight" as I believe it is called. Now, don't get me wrong. Walking down the Costa del Sol there's nothing I like better than a row of Spoons, Harry Ramsden's chippies, and sports bars showing Coventry vs Stoke on its five TV screens, but some say that it is an okay thing to want to preserve the character (ofc people vary on their choice of T= 0).

    From my perspective, I don't mind if leafy suburbs, previously the preserve of the intelligentsia and literary types, are opened up to loadsamoney oiks who've made it in the City but you have to understand how some people think.
    Don’t worry, the expat denizens of Benidorm recently staged a local protest march against immigration - into Britain, obvs
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 26,617

    isam said:

    Keir Starmer putting his best foot forward on the world stage 🤦‍♂️

    https://x.com/conservatives/status/1991838642223096134?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    What a bastard. Today is Nathan Gill's day and Starmer has just stolen top billing headlines from him and Farage.

    Perhaps the Conservative Party have their priority wrong today too.
    Today is Ben Stokes' day.

    If only we'd sent some batsmen to accompany him downunder.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 7,753
    IanB2 said:

    carnforth said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ten and a half years seems a bit excessive for Gill. Jail time maybe for taking some bribes from the Russians but even some who kill by dangerous driving or manslaughter or rapists get less time in jail than that.

    Is it because he was Reform? One hopes not

    No, I don't think it's because he was Reform. It's because he was a Traitor.
    How did he get found out?
    https://nation.cymru/news/welsh-politician-linked-to-men-accused-of-being-kremlin-agents/

    Others were caught first:

    "Three of those trips were paid for or arranged by an organisation run by Janusz Niedźwiecki, a Polish national now in pre-trial detention on espionage charges, while at least one also involved Oleh Voloshyn, a Ukrainian considered an “FSB pawn” by the US Government and suspected of high treason by Ukraine."
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,881
    nico67 said:

    The 28 point plan is essentially the surrender document with added grifting by the WH .

    Disgraceful is putting it mildly .

    Trump is a Russian plant, Farage likes him, and in even more shocking news one of Farage’s MEPs was a Russian shill.

    What were the odds?
  • isamisam Posts: 43,048

    isam said:

    Keir Starmer putting his best foot forward on the world stage 🤦‍♂️

    https://x.com/conservatives/status/1991838642223096134?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    What a bastard. Today is Nathan Gill's day and Starmer has just stolen top billing headlines from him and Farage.

    Perhaps the Conservative Party have their priority wrong today too.
    Don’t worry, he’s trying to put it down the memory hole

    Downing Street Demands Everyone Takes Down Video of PM Falling Over order-order.com/2025/11/21/dow…

    https://x.com/guidofawkes/status/1991845479089352757?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,462
    Fishing said:

    kinabalu said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    PJH said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Returning to London after a year in the countryside, the signs of societal collapse are everywhere - even at 7am
    By Amanda Williams"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-15311313/london-societal-collapse-amanda-williams.html

    Lol. What a load of crap.
    For those of us without a Daily Mail account, and who feel that our lives are the richer for not having one, what did it say?

    As someone who has lived in London for most of my life, and the same corner of it for the last 25 years, I don't recognise a lot of the descriptions I read, and certainly feel that much of London is far better than during most of my life, except for a general decline in the public realm over the past decade or so that I see everywhere else I visit too.
    It's a kind of modern Gin Lane account of walking through Kensington in the early hours of the morning, being scared of brown people, a random negative comment about the tube, seeing a prostitute buying some drugs, some obligatory hating on Sadiq Khan and contrasting it with the bucolic joy of the English countryside. She thinks American tourists must hate it here (weird how they keep coming) and takes a shot at the weather (also probably Khan's fault). A classic of the genre, basically.
    And all those tall buildings. Scary.
    Did the packs of rabid urban foxes, and Hitchcockian bird flu-infested parakeets and ornamental geese, get a look in?
    Lol, I imagine so.

    The 'London is terrible' meme has been around for as long as can remember. Three drivers, I'd say:

    1. Backdoor envy. It means 'wish I could live there'.
    2. Parochial xenophobia. It means 'multicultural equals shithole'.
    3. Ageing. It means 'I'm too old for all that'.

    Number 2 is what I think is behind it when it's coming from the Populist Right.
    No, it's driven by genuine problems, which London has in abundance - staggeringly expensive housing, higher poverty levels than any other region in southern England, a dismal one-party city government led by a classic machine politician, a national government that regards it, like they regard anywhere remotely successful, as an ATM, high levels of certain types of property crime and a police force which has given up on them, unwanted immigrants dumped in previously cohesive communities for decades without consultation or consent, etc. etc.

    But it ignores London's huge strengths, in particular its character, resilience and vitality which make it, despite its problems, one of the world's great cities. So, like most media these days, it presents just one side of a much more nuanced picture, just because that gets the clicks.
    London is fantastic and a truly amazing place (imo). But that's because I skew typicaly PB demographic and I can enjoy all the plays, concerts, book readings, cultcha, etc.

    I understand that not everyone for example is a Friend of the RA so has to queue and pay £20 or whatever it is now for the Kiefer/Van Gogh which must be ghastly.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,791
    kinabalu said:

    Fishing said:

    kinabalu said:

    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    PJH said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Returning to London after a year in the countryside, the signs of societal collapse are everywhere - even at 7am
    By Amanda Williams"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-15311313/london-societal-collapse-amanda-williams.html

    Lol. What a load of crap.
    For those of us without a Daily Mail account, and who feel that our lives are the richer for not having one, what did it say?

    As someone who has lived in London for most of my life, and the same corner of it for the last 25 years, I don't recognise a lot of the descriptions I read, and certainly feel that much of London is far better than during most of my life, except for a general decline in the public realm over the past decade or so that I see everywhere else I visit too.
    It's a kind of modern Gin Lane account of walking through Kensington in the early hours of the morning, being scared of brown people, a random negative comment about the tube, seeing a prostitute buying some drugs, some obligatory hating on Sadiq Khan and contrasting it with the bucolic joy of the English countryside. She thinks American tourists must hate it here (weird how they keep coming) and takes a shot at the weather (also probably Khan's fault). A classic of the genre, basically.
    And all those tall buildings. Scary.
    Did the packs of rabid urban foxes, and Hitchcockian bird flu-infested parakeets and ornamental geese, get a look in?
    Lol, I imagine so.

    The 'London is terrible' meme has been around for as long as can remember. Three drivers, I'd say:

    1. Backdoor envy. It means 'wish I could live there'.
    2. Parochial xenophobia. It means 'multicultural equals shithole'.
    3. Ageing. It means 'I'm too old for all that'.

    Number 2 is what I think is behind it when it's coming from the Populist Right.
    No, it's driven by genuine problems, which London has in abundance - staggeringly expensive housing, higher poverty levels than any other region in southern England, a dismal one-party city government led by a classic machine politician, a national government that regards it, like they regard anywhere remotely successful, as an ATM, high levels of certain types of property crime and a police force which has given up on them, unwanted immigrants dumped in previously cohesive communities for decades without consultation or consent, etc. etc.

    But it ignores London's huge strengths, in particular its character, resilience and vitality which make it, despite its problems, one of the world's great cities. So, like most media these days, it presents just one side of a much more nuanced picture, just because that gets the clicks.
    But why is the populist right so keen to push the 'London is a toilet' fiction? I think it's to draw a link between immigration and societal decline and strife. That's the button being pressed.
    Khan?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,608
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Keir Starmer putting his best foot forward on the world stage 🤦‍♂️

    https://x.com/conservatives/status/1991838642223096134?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    What a bastard. Today is Nathan Gill's day and Starmer has just stolen top billing headlines from him and Farage.

    Perhaps the Conservative Party have their priority wrong today too.
    Don’t worry, he’s trying to put it down the memory hole

    Downing Street Demands Everyone Takes Down Video of PM Falling Over order-order.com/2025/11/21/dow…

    https://x.com/guidofawkes/status/1991845479089352757?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    Step into Christmas....
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,918
    edited 1:32PM

    nico67 said:

    The 28 point plan is essentially the surrender document with added grifting by the WH .

    Disgraceful is putting it mildly .

    Trump is a Russian plant, Farage likes him, and in even more shocking news one of Farage’s MEPs was a Russian shill.

    What were the odds?
    On only 1 of them being a Russian shill? Quite high against I would have thought.
  • FossFoss Posts: 2,113

    HYUFD said:

    Reform gain a rural Stratford on Avon seat
    https://x.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1991841083689734562?s=20

    It's more greater Redditch in geography than Stratford on Avon.
    Brum white flight land.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,551

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is what happens when bandits and mafiosi like Trump and Netanyahu become political leaders. When is someone going to stand up to these criminals?
    It goes well beyond that, though (and the fact that it involves Israel isn't particularly relevant in the greater scheme of things.)

    It should be another wake up call for Europe (and that includes us) that depending on the US to the extent we do, both economically and militarily, involves a far greater loss of sovereignty than does (for example) membership of the EU.

    That people like Farage will likely applaud this, rather than recognise it for what it is, will indicate that they have no real interest in British sovereignty.
    Maybe the idiot judge should have thought about the consequences of targeting a US ally before getting caught up in the hard left anti-Semitism that drives all the nonsense against Jews having their own state.

    It's about time these judges in their ivory towers faced consequences for their idiotic decisions.
    Maybe you should reply to my actual point.

    ..the fact that it involves Israel isn't particularly relevant in the greater scheme of things..
    It's very relevant. Do you think the US would have put sanctions on this judge had he not decided to be a complete dick head and try and make a name for himself by targeting Israel?
    So you're agreeing with me that we can only enforce our laws subject to approval of the US.
    But it's not our law, it's the nebulous concept of "international law". Again, I'd remove the UK from the ICC and ECHR anyway.

    Also, how is it different from when we put sanctions on Russians and Russian companies after Putin invaded Ukraine both times. Individuals in Russia are subject to our (and US) sanctions despite there being no jurisdiction. You just don't like it this time because the US has targeted one of your pet liberal projects.
    A ridiculous ad hominem from you.
    The principle at stake has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue of Israel. Or indeed the ECHR.

    This is what I am alarmed about:

    ..He cannot: open or maintain accounts with Google, Amazon, Apple, or any US company; make hotel reservations (Expedia canceled his booking in France hours after he made it); conduct online commerce, since he can't know if the packaging is American; use any major credit card (Visa, Mastercard, Amex are all American); access normal banking services, even with non-American banks, as banks worldwide close sanctioned accounts; conduct virtually any financial transaction.

    He describes it as being "economically banned across most of the planet," including in his own country, France, and where he works, the Netherlands.

    That's the real shocking aspect of this: the Americans are:
    - punishing a European citizen
    - for doing his job in Europe
    - applying laws Europe officially supports
    - at an institution based in Europe
    - that Europe helped create and fund

    and Europe is not only doing essentially nothing to protect him, they're actively enforcing America's sanctions against their own citizen - European banks closing his accounts, European companies refusing him service, European institutions standing by while Washington destroys a European judge's life on European soil...


    That you can't appreciate that this is about practical sovereignty is a clear demonstration that you don't really care about our own sovereignty.
    This is essentially the Putinist argument against the existing world order.
    No it isn't.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,881
    DavidL said:

    nico67 said:

    The 28 point plan is essentially the surrender document with added grifting by the WH .

    Disgraceful is putting it mildly .

    Trump is a Russian plant, Farage likes him, and in even more shocking news one of Farage’s MEPs was a Russian shill.

    What were the odds?
    On only 1 of them being a Russian shill? Quite high against I would have thought.
    A few months ago I asked on here what would Trump have done differently if he was a Russian shill and another PBer replied with ‘Be less subtle about it’
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,791
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Keir Starmer putting his best foot forward on the world stage 🤦‍♂️

    https://x.com/conservatives/status/1991838642223096134?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    What a bastard. Today is Nathan Gill's day and Starmer has just stolen top billing headlines from him and Farage.

    Perhaps the Conservative Party have their priority wrong today too.
    Don’t worry, he’s trying to put it down the memory hole

    Downing Street Demands Everyone Takes Down Video of PM Falling Over order-order.com/2025/11/21/dow…

    https://x.com/guidofawkes/status/1991845479089352757?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    Have you never tripped on say a proud paving slab?

    Why shouldn't Labour take footage down where possible. They would be remiss not to.

    The time to get worried is when the BBC substitute footage of Starmer at the previous G20/G7 where he doesn't fall down .

    Surely in the grand scheme of Starmer villainy this shouldn't even register.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,251
    isam said:

    Keir Starmer putting his best foot forward on the world stage 🤦‍♂️

    https://x.com/conservatives/status/1991838642223096134?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    He has been out of the country 45 times since elected

    Good it is going so well for him here in the UK then !!!!
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,251
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Ten and a half years seems a bit excessive for Gill. Jail time maybe for taking some bribes from the Russians but even some who kill by dangerous driving or manslaughter or rapists get less time in jail than that.

    Is it because he was Reform? One hopes not

    Utter and complete rubbish

    I assume you didn't listen to the judgement on how he helped Putin and was anti Ukraine

    He was lucky to get only 10 and a half years as he corrupted politics across Europe

    I genuinely hope this damages pro Putin Farage and his Reform mob
    Did he disclose lots of sensitive intelligence to Putin? no. Did he sent vast quantities of funds to Russia? No. Did he fight on the battlefield with Russia? No.

    He made some pro Putin speeches and interviews he was bribed for. A 5 year sentence would have sufficed
    You are attempting to defend the indefensible

    Shame on you
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 26,617
    I do not care that Starmer stumbled while walking.

    I do care that Starmer has stumbled from one economic mishap to another.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,399

    isam said:

    Keir Starmer putting his best foot forward on the world stage 🤦‍♂️

    https://x.com/conservatives/status/1991838642223096134?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    What a bastard. Today is Nathan Gill's day and Starmer has just stolen top billing headlines from him and Farage.

    Perhaps the Conservative Party have their priority wrong today too.
    Today is Ben Stokes' day.

    If only we'd sent some batsmen to accompany him downunder.
    I worry about what’s going to happen once Root and Stokes have to step down. Two of the greatest players of all time, and both approaching the twilight of their careers. Both utterly irreplaceable.
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