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  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,139
    Vernon Bogdanor has called for Tim Davie to resign over the BBC's Gaza coverage (or at least the failure to act on concerns raised).

    The thing is that Davie has a commercial background. That might have appealed to the Tories as a candidate for the role of DG. But the job of BBC News is not be be commercial. It is to be accurate. Politicians could have given a better lead on this. Being fair to Israel probably won't get the BBC so many Arabic listeners than being biased against it. But so be it. Give the world the information as best we can and let them take it or leave it. A good culture secretary should say to the BBC that if your news coverage is accurate, don't worry about ratings, we will back you.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,584

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    algarkirk said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Even where Reform is being beaten, Labour seems to be absolutely nowhere in local elections being beaten by Greens, various independents and nationalist parties.

    True. Polling remains as it has been in one respect. The Tory/Reform polling is about 47-50%, the Not Reform/Not Tory vote is about 50% as well. A general election remains light years away for all but proper anoraks. By the middle of 2028 at the latest minds will concentrate as to how to conduct a Rightish v Leftish (all inaccurate terms but you know what I mean) election in which either Reformtory will form government or Labour+'others as needed' will. More than usual people will be voting with government formation in mind. And only then, in 2028 can one start assessing Labour's chances. My guess is that Labour must improve as there is nowhere else coherent to go to in most seats.

    The big question for me remains which way will the Conservatives choose to jump. The assumption on here seems to be they would support a minority Reform Government - I'm not so sure.

    That does NOT mean they would support a minority Labour Government either but both the Conservative and the LDs (who between them could easily form the balance in the next Commons) have some hard thinking ahead on their positioning both before and after the election.

    The LDs have form trying to mitigate between two opposing blocs - the Conservatives do not.
    If Jenrick ousted Kemi to become Tory leader the Conservatives would certainly prop up a minority Reform government and Farage would certainly make Jenrick his Deputy PM, Farage was effusive with praise at Jenrick's conference speech.

    If Kemi remained Tory leader the Conservatives would likely prop up a minority Reform government but not certainly and Farage doesn't seem to respect her much so might at most make her Minister for Transport, with Tice his Deputy PM.

    If Kemi resigned or lost a VONC and Cleverly replaced her than the Conservatives would not support a minority Reform government, nor would they support a minority Labour government but abstain and vote bill by bill.

    The LDs though would certainly now prop up a minority Labour government to keep out Reform, in return for a few concessions like rejoining a Customs Union and scrapping the family farm tax
    I'm sure your reading of Conservative possible intentions is accurate - I really couldn't tell you what Badenoch would do to be honest. As for LD intentions, you've made an assumption there but I think both parties have to work out the level of support or otherwise they might offer.

    I could see Davey offering a minority Labour Government Confidence & Supply only and it may be a Cleverly-led Conservative Party will be similarly minded. I suspect the experience of the 2010-15 Government (as well as past dealings with Labour) will preclude any arrangement involving LD Ministers in a second term Labour Government and nor do I expect Cleverly to sit round the same Cabinet table as Starmer (or whoever).

    I could see Jenrick occupying a senior Ministerial post in a Reform-led Government.

    While not wishing to compromise your inate loyalty to the Party, do you not think history shows being the junior coalition partner is the epitome of the poisoned chalice?
    If it is with a party perceived as your usual opponents maybe, as the LDs found when Clegg did a deal with the Tories, hence Cleverly certainly would not prop up Labour even if he did no deal with Reform either.

    Even then you can survive it under PR, as the SPD have in Germany but not with FPTP

    Indeed. But if the two party system is now broken then we must have PR. And most likely an Irish type STV than a party list system.
    Reform promises a referendum on PR if they won. Whether they would hold to that if they did actually win is a different question (or if it will even be in their next 'contract with the people'). Trudeau, entirely coincidentally, discovered implementing electoral system changes was too difficult, once it had delivered him victory. Then claimed it was such a regret he hadn't done it, IIRC, once he was no longer in office.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,584
    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    Maybe not, but we'd find out in about 5 years from now.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,250

    I have a suggestion to improve life for all.

    If you are using any kind of vehicle for a commercial purpose, you have to have a full license to use it (if any) *and* number plates.

    Any powered bike of any kind will be considered a motor scooter, if used for commercial purposes. So you’ll need a full license for that as well

    1) So delivery riders on scooters will have to pas their tests. No L plates.
    2) electric bike delivery riders will have to display a plate otherwise their vehicle gets confiscated on the spot.

    2 I very much support, but 1 is completely impractical. The DVSA have nothing like the spare capacity to handle such an upsurge in tests - already many test centres get completely booked out at times, and most are very busy at best. Being a motorcycle test examiner is a monotonous, thankless and badly paid job, so recruiting is difficult. Getting any motorcycle licence also requires two practical tests, not one, doubling the load. A full unrestricted 'A' licence can require as many as *six* practical tests.

    L plate riders get the right to be on the road by completing their CBT, which is a one day training course. In the motorcycle community it's widely supported that CBT riders should have to do their theory test, which at present they don't. That's very possible since that's done on a computer and the tests are already done by commercial contractors, not DVSA, so scaling for extra demand is easier.

    But... none of this is going to happen.

    The motorcycle licencing system has been broken for many years and is not fit for purpose, but not a single thing has been done about it. No government, Tory or Labour, has even proposed a single major change.
    The way to effect change is to Break Things More.

    So we get every single delivery company in the country whining at once? Excellent.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,139
    Just to add it may be that for people at the BBC the support of some here today gone tomorrow politician is rather less reassuring the large numbers of viewers would be.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,250
    edited November 8
    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    The scenes in Tower Hamlets would be interesting

    For those who don't know - Denmark puts limits on mono-ethnic ghettos of social housing. Including (at least threatening) *demolition* of problem blocks.

    Tower Hamlets council, which is Donald Trump level corrupt*, deliberately works to create mono-ethnic social housing - from the "right" parts of Bangladesh.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutfur_Rahman_(British_politician)
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 7,678
    edited November 8

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    The scenes in Tower Hamlets would be interesting

    For those who don't know - Denmark puts limits on mono-ethnic ghettos of social housing. Including (at least threatening) *demolition* of problem blocks.

    Tower Hamlets council, which is Donald Trump level corrupt*, deliberately works to create mono-ethnic social housing - from the "right" parts of Bangladesh.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutfur_Rahman_(British_politician)
    I don't think she's going to copy that part of the Danish system, but I'm astonished that part is legal.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,584
    edited November 8

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    The scenes in Tower Hamlets would be interesting

    For those who don't know - Denmark puts limits on mono-ethnic ghettos of social housing. Including (at least threatening) *demolition* of problem blocks.

    Tower Hamlets council, which is Donald Trump level corrupt*, deliberately works to create mono-ethnic social housing - from the "right" parts of Bangladesh.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutfur_Rahman_(British_politician)
    I find it incredible that being found guilty of corrupt or illegal practices in respect of elections does not come with a bar from standing for electoral office ever again.

    I'm not a hang 'em and flog 'em person, but when it comes to electoral fraud I don't think you should be able to have another crack at it. You're just giving them opportunity to do it smarter next time.

    It is not a good sign that he won so easily.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,250
    edited November 8
    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    The scenes in Tower Hamlets would be interesting

    For those who don't know - Denmark puts limits on mono-ethnic ghettos of social housing. Including (at least threatening) *demolition* of problem blocks.

    Tower Hamlets council, which is Donald Trump level corrupt*, deliberately works to create mono-ethnic social housing - from the "right" parts of Bangladesh.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutfur_Rahman_(British_politician)
    I don't think she's going to copy that part of the Danish system, but I'm astonished that part is legal.
    A friend is going through the process of becoming a Danish citizen. Which he likens to taking a Masters in being Danish. Among other things, he has to learn colloquial, fluent, conversational Danish.


    Refugees who live in housing estates designated as "parallel societies" - that is where more than 50% of residents are from what the Danish government considers to be "non-Western" backgrounds - will not be eligible for family reunion at all.

    This law, which also allows the state to sell off or demolish those apartment blocks that fall under the "parallel societies" designation, has been controversial. Denmark's government said it was aimed at improving integration, while a senior adviser to the EU's top court described it earlier this year as discriminatory on the basis of ethnic origin.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2lknr2d3go
  • I have a suggestion to improve life for all.

    If you are using any kind of vehicle for a commercial purpose, you have to have a full license to use it (if any) *and* number plates.

    Any powered bike of any kind will be considered a motor scooter, if used for commercial purposes. So you’ll need a full license for that as well

    1) So delivery riders on scooters will have to pas their tests. No L plates.
    2) electric bike delivery riders will have to display a plate otherwise their vehicle gets confiscated on the spot.

    2 I very much support, but 1 is completely impractical. The DVSA have nothing like the spare capacity to handle such an upsurge in tests - already many test centres get completely booked out at times, and most are very busy at best. Being a motorcycle test examiner is a monotonous, thankless and badly paid job, so recruiting is difficult. Getting any motorcycle licence also requires two practical tests, not one, doubling the load. A full unrestricted 'A' licence can require as many as *six* practical tests.

    L plate riders get the right to be on the road by completing their CBT, which is a one day training course. In the motorcycle community it's widely supported that CBT riders should have to do their theory test, which at present they don't. That's very possible since that's done on a computer and the tests are already done by commercial contractors, not DVSA, so scaling for extra demand is easier.

    But... none of this is going to happen.

    The motorcycle licencing system has been broken for many years and is not fit for purpose, but not a single thing has been done about it. No government, Tory or Labour, has even proposed a single major change.
    The way to effect change is to Break Things More.

    So we get every single delivery company in the country whining at once? Excellent.
    In this case breaking things would entail tens of thousands of people losing their income. There is *zero* chance of scaling the test system to handle your suggestion.

    Delivery companies could whine all they want. The reality is there's no simple or quick fix.

    (I should also add that despite the widespread ire at riders on L plates, they are actually statistically quite unlikely to get into an accident compared to people with actual licences, so their riding can't be all that bad in general)
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,845

    The headline isn't the VI but the finding that an absolute majority think Starmer and Reeves should resign.

    Over half (56%) of Britons think Keir Starmer should step down as Prime Minister, compared to 26% who want him to remain in post and 19% who are unsure. Even among 2024 Labour voters, a third (33%) believe he should resign, while just over half (52%) think he should stay.

    A similar picture emerges for Rachel Reeves: 57% of the public think she should resign as Chancellor, with only 19% wanting her to continue and 24% undecided. Among 2024 Labour voters, 38% think she should go, while 42% want her to remain.
    But isn’t that just a corollary of the headline VI? People don’t support Labour, so of course they want Starmer and Reeves to resign.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,250
    kle4 said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    The scenes in Tower Hamlets would be interesting

    For those who don't know - Denmark puts limits on mono-ethnic ghettos of social housing. Including (at least threatening) *demolition* of problem blocks.

    Tower Hamlets council, which is Donald Trump level corrupt*, deliberately works to create mono-ethnic social housing - from the "right" parts of Bangladesh.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutfur_Rahman_(British_politician)
    I find it incredible that being found guilty of corrupt or illegal practices in respect of elections does not come with a bar from standing for electoral office ever again.

    I'm not a hang 'em and flog 'em person, but when it comes to electoral fraud I don't think you should be able to have another crack at it. You're just giving them opportunity to do it smarter next time.

    It is not a good sign that he won so easily.
    The Danish law was aimed at his exact counterparts in Denmark - who were building up power bases by creating mono-ethnic ghettos in public housing. They were just local councillors, but were building a structure of exploiting people who could speak neither Danish or English for votes, labour etc...
  • isamisam Posts: 42,976
    kle4 said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    The scenes in Tower Hamlets would be interesting

    For those who don't know - Denmark puts limits on mono-ethnic ghettos of social housing. Including (at least threatening) *demolition* of problem blocks.

    Tower Hamlets council, which is Donald Trump level corrupt*, deliberately works to create mono-ethnic social housing - from the "right" parts of Bangladesh.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutfur_Rahman_(British_politician)
    I find it incredible that being found guilty of corrupt or illegal practices in respect of elections does not come with a bar from standing for electoral office ever again.

    I'm not a hang 'em and flog 'em person, but when it comes to electoral fraud I don't think you should be able to have another crack at it.

    It is not a good sign that he won so easily.
    110% turnout etc…

    Multiculturalism was invented by people who, rather arrogantly, thought immigrants to Britain would be so pleased to be let in that they’d adopt liberal, atheist/agnostic, western values.

    Not so, unfortunately. And it’s too late now
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,356
    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    The scenes in Tower Hamlets would be interesting

    For those who don't know - Denmark puts limits on mono-ethnic ghettos of social housing. Including (at least threatening) *demolition* of problem blocks.

    Tower Hamlets council, which is Donald Trump level corrupt*, deliberately works to create mono-ethnic social housing - from the "right" parts of Bangladesh.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutfur_Rahman_(British_politician)
    I find it incredible that being found guilty of corrupt or illegal practices in respect of elections does not come with a bar from standing for electoral office ever again.

    I'm not a hang 'em and flog 'em person, but when it comes to electoral fraud I don't think you should be able to have another crack at it.

    It is not a good sign that he won so easily.
    110% turnout etc…

    Multiculturalism was invented by people who, rather arrogantly, thought immigrants to Britain would be so pleased to be let in that they’d adopt liberal, atheist/agnostic, western values.

    Not so, unfortunately. And it’s too late now
    'Most parishioners in London, where Christianity is holding up best, are not White Brits. Consider the fact that in Brent — one of the two most ethnically diverse London boroughs, where White Britons form just 15% of the population — the number of Christians increased from 129,080 in 2011 to 131,914 in 2021. In Newham, the most diverse, Christianity also rose marginally, from 123,119 in 2011 to 123,746 in 2021. This rise is because of, not in spite of, ethnic change.

    Let’s zoom out and look at this nationally. There are around 780,000 fewer White Britons in England and Wales than in 2011, a drop from 80.5% to 74.4% of the total population. This means the Christian share has dropped more than twice as fast as the White British share. This is similar to 2001-11, when the Christian proportion dropped 13 points while the White British fell 7 points, so the trend has been evident for at least two decades.

    Meanwhile, the number of Muslims increased from 2.7 to 3.9 million, a rise from 4.9% to 6.5% of the population. Similar growth occurred among some other non-Christian groups. Global demography, as I have written elsewhere, reverses secularisation. Thus Britain’s immigration gateway cities, which are most exposed to global demographic winds, are the least secular.'
    https://unherd.com/newsroom/ethnic-minorities-are-keeping-britain-christian/
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,584
    edited November 8

    kle4 said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    The scenes in Tower Hamlets would be interesting

    For those who don't know - Denmark puts limits on mono-ethnic ghettos of social housing. Including (at least threatening) *demolition* of problem blocks.

    Tower Hamlets council, which is Donald Trump level corrupt*, deliberately works to create mono-ethnic social housing - from the "right" parts of Bangladesh.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutfur_Rahman_(British_politician)
    I find it incredible that being found guilty of corrupt or illegal practices in respect of elections does not come with a bar from standing for electoral office ever again.

    I'm not a hang 'em and flog 'em person, but when it comes to electoral fraud I don't think you should be able to have another crack at it. You're just giving them opportunity to do it smarter next time.

    It is not a good sign that he won so easily.
    The Danish law was aimed at his exact counterparts in Denmark - who were building up power bases by creating mono-ethnic ghettos in public housing. They were just local councillors, but were building a structure of exploiting people who could speak neither Danish or English for votes, labour etc...
    It sounds tough but necessary. I can see the concerns about discrimination, but the dangers of letting such ghettoisation occur are sufficiently high as to justify intervention I think.

    Especially when someone like Rahman has been provably corrupt in an electoral sense and should not have the opportunity to create his own little fiefdom. It's not a hypothetical overreaction in his case!
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,845
    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    The scenes in Tower Hamlets would be interesting

    For those who don't know - Denmark puts limits on mono-ethnic ghettos of social housing. Including (at least threatening) *demolition* of problem blocks.

    Tower Hamlets council, which is Donald Trump level corrupt*, deliberately works to create mono-ethnic social housing - from the "right" parts of Bangladesh.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutfur_Rahman_(British_politician)
    I find it incredible that being found guilty of corrupt or illegal practices in respect of elections does not come with a bar from standing for electoral office ever again.

    I'm not a hang 'em and flog 'em person, but when it comes to electoral fraud I don't think you should be able to have another crack at it.

    It is not a good sign that he won so easily.
    110% turnout etc…

    Multiculturalism was invented by people who, rather arrogantly, thought immigrants to Britain would be so pleased to be let in that they’d adopt liberal, atheist/agnostic, western values.

    Not so, unfortunately. And it’s too late now
    The vast majority of immigrants to Britain have adopted British values.

    The mistake was realising how many *natives* would abandon liberal, atheist/agnostic, Western values in the face of a few social media posts!
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,139
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    The scenes in Tower Hamlets would be interesting

    For those who don't know - Denmark puts limits on mono-ethnic ghettos of social housing. Including (at least threatening) *demolition* of problem blocks.

    Tower Hamlets council, which is Donald Trump level corrupt*, deliberately works to create mono-ethnic social housing - from the "right" parts of Bangladesh.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutfur_Rahman_(British_politician)
    I find it incredible that being found guilty of corrupt or illegal practices in respect of elections does not come with a bar from standing for electoral office ever again.

    I'm not a hang 'em and flog 'em person, but when it comes to electoral fraud I don't think you should be able to have another crack at it. You're just giving them opportunity to do it smarter next time.

    It is not a good sign that he won so easily.
    The Danish law was aimed at his exact counterparts in Denmark - who were building up power bases by creating mono-ethnic ghettos in public housing. They were just local councillors, but were building a structure of exploiting people who could speak neither Danish or English for votes, labour etc...
    It sounds tough but necessary. I can see the concerns about discrimination, but the dangers of letting such ghettoisation occur are sufficiently high as to justify intervention I think.

    Especially when someone like Rahman has been provably corrupt in an electoral sense and should not have the opportunity to create his own little fiefdom.
    Is it not rather odd that we don't worry about discrimination within ghettos and instead worry about discrimination if we try to prevent them?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,584

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    The scenes in Tower Hamlets would be interesting

    For those who don't know - Denmark puts limits on mono-ethnic ghettos of social housing. Including (at least threatening) *demolition* of problem blocks.

    Tower Hamlets council, which is Donald Trump level corrupt*, deliberately works to create mono-ethnic social housing - from the "right" parts of Bangladesh.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutfur_Rahman_(British_politician)
    I find it incredible that being found guilty of corrupt or illegal practices in respect of elections does not come with a bar from standing for electoral office ever again.

    I'm not a hang 'em and flog 'em person, but when it comes to electoral fraud I don't think you should be able to have another crack at it. You're just giving them opportunity to do it smarter next time.

    It is not a good sign that he won so easily.
    The Danish law was aimed at his exact counterparts in Denmark - who were building up power bases by creating mono-ethnic ghettos in public housing. They were just local councillors, but were building a structure of exploiting people who could speak neither Danish or English for votes, labour etc...
    It sounds tough but necessary. I can see the concerns about discrimination, but the dangers of letting such ghettoisation occur are sufficiently high as to justify intervention I think.

    Especially when someone like Rahman has been provably corrupt in an electoral sense and should not have the opportunity to create his own little fiefdom.
    Is it not rather odd that we don't worry about discrimination within ghettos and instead worry about discrimination if we try to prevent them?
    Seems like a classic case of my oft mentioned refrain about worrying so much about overreacting that we can forget to react in the first place.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,845
    Stupidity and corruption: the classic MAGA combo.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/nov/08/kristi-noem-spirit-airlines-planes

    “The secretary of the US Department of Homeland Security (DHS), Kristi Noem, reportedly authorized the purchase of Spirit Airlines jets before discovering the airline didn’t actually own the planes – and that the aircraft lacked engines.

    “The bizarre anecdote was contained in a Wall Street Journal report released on Friday, which recounted how Noem and Corey Lewandowski – who managed Donald Trump’s first winning presidential campaign – had recently arranged to buy 10 Boeing 737 aircraft from Spirit Airlines. People familiar with the situation told the paper that the two intended to use the jets to expand deportation flights – and for personal travel.”
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,250

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    The scenes in Tower Hamlets would be interesting

    For those who don't know - Denmark puts limits on mono-ethnic ghettos of social housing. Including (at least threatening) *demolition* of problem blocks.

    Tower Hamlets council, which is Donald Trump level corrupt*, deliberately works to create mono-ethnic social housing - from the "right" parts of Bangladesh.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutfur_Rahman_(British_politician)
    I find it incredible that being found guilty of corrupt or illegal practices in respect of elections does not come with a bar from standing for electoral office ever again.

    I'm not a hang 'em and flog 'em person, but when it comes to electoral fraud I don't think you should be able to have another crack at it. You're just giving them opportunity to do it smarter next time.

    It is not a good sign that he won so easily.
    The Danish law was aimed at his exact counterparts in Denmark - who were building up power bases by creating mono-ethnic ghettos in public housing. They were just local councillors, but were building a structure of exploiting people who could speak neither Danish or English for votes, labour etc...
    It sounds tough but necessary. I can see the concerns about discrimination, but the dangers of letting such ghettoisation occur are sufficiently high as to justify intervention I think.

    Especially when someone like Rahman has been provably corrupt in an electoral sense and should not have the opportunity to create his own little fiefdom.
    Is it not rather odd that we don't worry about discrimination within ghettos and instead worry about discrimination if we try to prevent them?
    The Danish Liberal argument is that such ghettos of isolated people are ripe for exploitation.

    There were a number of cases around combined extortion (think debt peonage) combined with work at rates guaranteed to make the repayment impossible.

    Because the victims were isolated from Danish society, they had little idea of the rights they actually possessed.

    It’s a very common pattern around the world, and through history. Immigrants are exploited by insiders in their own culture.

    The same happens in the U.K. today.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,584

    Stupidity and corruption: the classic MAGA combo.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/nov/08/kristi-noem-spirit-airlines-planes

    “The secretary of the US Department of Homeland Security (DHS), Kristi Noem, reportedly authorized the purchase of Spirit Airlines jets before discovering the airline didn’t actually own the planes – and that the aircraft lacked engines.

    “The bizarre anecdote was contained in a Wall Street Journal report released on Friday, which recounted how Noem and Corey Lewandowski – who managed Donald Trump’s first winning presidential campaign – had recently arranged to buy 10 Boeing 737 aircraft from Spirit Airlines. People familiar with the situation told the paper that the two intended to use the jets to expand deportation flights – and for personal travel.”

    Even I knew Spirit didn't outright own their planes, and that's just from randomly stumbling across that fact like 10 months ago on Youtube.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,139

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    The scenes in Tower Hamlets would be interesting

    For those who don't know - Denmark puts limits on mono-ethnic ghettos of social housing. Including (at least threatening) *demolition* of problem blocks.

    Tower Hamlets council, which is Donald Trump level corrupt*, deliberately works to create mono-ethnic social housing - from the "right" parts of Bangladesh.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutfur_Rahman_(British_politician)
    I find it incredible that being found guilty of corrupt or illegal practices in respect of elections does not come with a bar from standing for electoral office ever again.

    I'm not a hang 'em and flog 'em person, but when it comes to electoral fraud I don't think you should be able to have another crack at it. You're just giving them opportunity to do it smarter next time.

    It is not a good sign that he won so easily.
    The Danish law was aimed at his exact counterparts in Denmark - who were building up power bases by creating mono-ethnic ghettos in public housing. They were just local councillors, but were building a structure of exploiting people who could speak neither Danish or English for votes, labour etc...
    It sounds tough but necessary. I can see the concerns about discrimination, but the dangers of letting such ghettoisation occur are sufficiently high as to justify intervention I think.

    Especially when someone like Rahman has been provably corrupt in an electoral sense and should not have the opportunity to create his own little fiefdom.
    Is it not rather odd that we don't worry about discrimination within ghettos and instead worry about discrimination if we try to prevent them?
    The Danish Liberal argument is that such ghettos of isolated people are ripe for exploitation.

    There were a number of cases around combined extortion (think debt peonage) combined with work at rates guaranteed to make the repayment impossible.

    Because the victims were isolated from Danish society, they had little idea of the rights they actually possessed.

    It’s a very common pattern around the world, and through history. Immigrants are exploited by insiders in their own culture.

    The same happens in the U.K. today.
    Nice to know there are places where liberalism isn't entirely dead.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,022
    .

    Stupidity and corruption: the classic MAGA combo.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/nov/08/kristi-noem-spirit-airlines-planes

    “The secretary of the US Department of Homeland Security (DHS), Kristi Noem, reportedly authorized the purchase of Spirit Airlines jets before discovering the airline didn’t actually own the planes – and that the aircraft lacked engines.

    “The bizarre anecdote was contained in a Wall Street Journal report released on Friday, which recounted how Noem and Corey Lewandowski – who managed Donald Trump’s first winning presidential campaign – had recently arranged to buy 10 Boeing 737 aircraft from Spirit Airlines. People familiar with the situation told the paper that the two intended to use the jets to expand deportation flights – and for personal travel.”

    When your budget exceeds the UK's defence budget, there are may opportunities for grift.

    Regarding the former, it seems the clean bill of health for Ajax was nothing more than spin (and the minister actually believing his briefing, the fool).

    Army’s new £5.5bn Ajax tanks are still making soldiers sick & deaf – despite government promises the problems are fixed
    https://x.com/jeromestarkey/status/1986827659741958216


  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,845
    Did we do… https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/2025-11-07/councillor-quits-tory-party-after-accusing-young-black-males-of-flooding-uk ?

    Cornwall councillor quits Conservatives after accusing 'young black males' of 'flooding' the country
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,352

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    The scenes in Tower Hamlets would be interesting

    For those who don't know - Denmark puts limits on mono-ethnic ghettos of social housing. Including (at least threatening) *demolition* of problem blocks.

    Tower Hamlets council, which is Donald Trump level corrupt*, deliberately works to create mono-ethnic social housing - from the "right" parts of Bangladesh.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutfur_Rahman_(British_politician)
    I find it incredible that being found guilty of corrupt or illegal practices in respect of elections does not come with a bar from standing for electoral office ever again.

    I'm not a hang 'em and flog 'em person, but when it comes to electoral fraud I don't think you should be able to have another crack at it.

    It is not a good sign that he won so easily.
    110% turnout etc…

    Multiculturalism was invented by people who, rather arrogantly, thought immigrants to Britain would be so pleased to be let in that they’d adopt liberal, atheist/agnostic, western values.

    Not so, unfortunately. And it’s too late now
    The vast majority of immigrants to Britain have adopted British values.

    The mistake was realising how many *natives* would abandon liberal, atheist/agnostic, Western values in the face of a few social media posts!
    When were British values invented? Presumably it was some time after we abolished hanging and legalised homosexuality.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 62,271

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    The scenes in Tower Hamlets would be interesting

    For those who don't know - Denmark puts limits on mono-ethnic ghettos of social housing. Including (at least threatening) *demolition* of problem blocks.

    Tower Hamlets council, which is Donald Trump level corrupt*, deliberately works to create mono-ethnic social housing - from the "right" parts of Bangladesh.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutfur_Rahman_(British_politician)
    I find it incredible that being found guilty of corrupt or illegal practices in respect of elections does not come with a bar from standing for electoral office ever again.

    I'm not a hang 'em and flog 'em person, but when it comes to electoral fraud I don't think you should be able to have another crack at it.

    It is not a good sign that he won so easily.
    110% turnout etc…

    Multiculturalism was invented by people who, rather arrogantly, thought immigrants to Britain would be so pleased to be let in that they’d adopt liberal, atheist/agnostic, western values.

    Not so, unfortunately. And it’s too late now
    The vast majority of immigrants to Britain have adopted British values.

    The mistake was realising how many *natives* would abandon liberal, atheist/agnostic, Western values in the face of a few social media posts!
    When were British values invented? Presumably it was some time after we abolished hanging and legalised homosexuality.
    Surely British values are pounds and pence, and the way that we - alone in the world - mix and match imperial and metric units.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,250
    kle4 said:

    Stupidity and corruption: the classic MAGA combo.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/nov/08/kristi-noem-spirit-airlines-planes

    “The secretary of the US Department of Homeland Security (DHS), Kristi Noem, reportedly authorized the purchase of Spirit Airlines jets before discovering the airline didn’t actually own the planes – and that the aircraft lacked engines.

    “The bizarre anecdote was contained in a Wall Street Journal report released on Friday, which recounted how Noem and Corey Lewandowski – who managed Donald Trump’s first winning presidential campaign – had recently arranged to buy 10 Boeing 737 aircraft from Spirit Airlines. People familiar with the situation told the paper that the two intended to use the jets to expand deportation flights – and for personal travel.”

    Even I knew Spirit didn't outright own their planes, and that's just from randomly stumbling across that fact like 10 months ago on Youtube.
    The modern pattern is that many airlines lease the planes from huge fleets, and increasingly, rent the engines from the manufacturer. “Renting thrust”.

    A huge portion of RR business is now monitoring, in realtime, data from its engines on passenger aircraft around the world.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,845

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    The scenes in Tower Hamlets would be interesting

    For those who don't know - Denmark puts limits on mono-ethnic ghettos of social housing. Including (at least threatening) *demolition* of problem blocks.

    Tower Hamlets council, which is Donald Trump level corrupt*, deliberately works to create mono-ethnic social housing - from the "right" parts of Bangladesh.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutfur_Rahman_(British_politician)
    I find it incredible that being found guilty of corrupt or illegal practices in respect of elections does not come with a bar from standing for electoral office ever again.

    I'm not a hang 'em and flog 'em person, but when it comes to electoral fraud I don't think you should be able to have another crack at it.

    It is not a good sign that he won so easily.
    110% turnout etc…

    Multiculturalism was invented by people who, rather arrogantly, thought immigrants to Britain would be so pleased to be let in that they’d adopt liberal, atheist/agnostic, western values.

    Not so, unfortunately. And it’s too late now
    The vast majority of immigrants to Britain have adopted British values.

    The mistake was realising how many *natives* would abandon liberal, atheist/agnostic, Western values in the face of a few social media posts!
    When were British values invented? Presumably it was some time after we abolished hanging and legalised homosexuality.
    It’s easy. Gay rights, for example, is woke nonsense, unless you want to bash immigrants, when it’s a core British value.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,352
    edited November 8
    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    The scenes in Tower Hamlets would be interesting

    For those who don't know - Denmark puts limits on mono-ethnic ghettos of social housing. Including (at least threatening) *demolition* of problem blocks.

    Tower Hamlets council, which is Donald Trump level corrupt*, deliberately works to create mono-ethnic social housing - from the "right" parts of Bangladesh.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutfur_Rahman_(British_politician)
    I find it incredible that being found guilty of corrupt or illegal practices in respect of elections does not come with a bar from standing for electoral office ever again.

    I'm not a hang 'em and flog 'em person, but when it comes to electoral fraud I don't think you should be able to have another crack at it.

    It is not a good sign that he won so easily.
    110% turnout etc…

    Multiculturalism was invented by people who, rather arrogantly, thought immigrants to Britain would be so pleased to be let in that they’d adopt liberal, atheist/agnostic, western values.

    Not so, unfortunately. And it’s too late now
    The vast majority of immigrants to Britain have adopted British values.

    The mistake was realising how many *natives* would abandon liberal, atheist/agnostic, Western values in the face of a few social media posts!
    When were British values invented? Presumably it was some time after we abolished hanging and legalised homosexuality.
    Surely British values are pounds and pence, and the way that we - alone in the world - mix and match imperial and metric units.
    Good point. Maybe our malaise is down to the fact that it's been a while since we introduced a new system and we need to add to the confusion to keep people on their toes?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,250
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Stupidity and corruption: the classic MAGA combo.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/nov/08/kristi-noem-spirit-airlines-planes

    “The secretary of the US Department of Homeland Security (DHS), Kristi Noem, reportedly authorized the purchase of Spirit Airlines jets before discovering the airline didn’t actually own the planes – and that the aircraft lacked engines.

    “The bizarre anecdote was contained in a Wall Street Journal report released on Friday, which recounted how Noem and Corey Lewandowski – who managed Donald Trump’s first winning presidential campaign – had recently arranged to buy 10 Boeing 737 aircraft from Spirit Airlines. People familiar with the situation told the paper that the two intended to use the jets to expand deportation flights – and for personal travel.”

    When your budget exceeds the UK's defence budget, there are may opportunities for grift.

    Regarding the former, it seems the clean bill of health for Ajax was nothing more than spin (and the minister actually believing his briefing, the fool).

    Army’s new £5.5bn Ajax tanks are still making soldiers sick & deaf – despite government promises the problems are fixed
    https://x.com/jeromestarkey/status/1986827659741958216


    What is insane here, is that they are setting up huge compensation claims - the vehicle provably generates damaging levels of sound, inside. Levels that even hearing protection is not fully effective against. As a final twist, this can’t be argued to be a military necessity - other vehicles, around the world, don’t do this.

    @PBlawyers - what would you think on the settlement would be for permanent hearing loss, caused by known, un-necessary and lied about exposure to noise? I am guessing 6 figures per person.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 5,576
    Entirely off-topic, but sometimes I need reminded how silly, pretentious, and wonderful young people are. And this was a reminder.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnuG9jvRcHk

    "SPELLLING - Turning Wheel"
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,250

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    The scenes in Tower Hamlets would be interesting

    For those who don't know - Denmark puts limits on mono-ethnic ghettos of social housing. Including (at least threatening) *demolition* of problem blocks.

    Tower Hamlets council, which is Donald Trump level corrupt*, deliberately works to create mono-ethnic social housing - from the "right" parts of Bangladesh.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutfur_Rahman_(British_politician)
    I find it incredible that being found guilty of corrupt or illegal practices in respect of elections does not come with a bar from standing for electoral office ever again.

    I'm not a hang 'em and flog 'em person, but when it comes to electoral fraud I don't think you should be able to have another crack at it.

    It is not a good sign that he won so easily.
    110% turnout etc…

    Multiculturalism was invented by people who, rather arrogantly, thought immigrants to Britain would be so pleased to be let in that they’d adopt liberal, atheist/agnostic, western values.

    Not so, unfortunately. And it’s too late now
    The vast majority of immigrants to Britain have adopted British values.

    The mistake was realising how many *natives* would abandon liberal, atheist/agnostic, Western values in the face of a few social media posts!
    When were British values invented? Presumably it was some time after we abolished hanging and legalised homosexuality.
    "Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs."
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 7,678

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    The scenes in Tower Hamlets would be interesting

    For those who don't know - Denmark puts limits on mono-ethnic ghettos of social housing. Including (at least threatening) *demolition* of problem blocks.

    Tower Hamlets council, which is Donald Trump level corrupt*, deliberately works to create mono-ethnic social housing - from the "right" parts of Bangladesh.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutfur_Rahman_(British_politician)
    I find it incredible that being found guilty of corrupt or illegal practices in respect of elections does not come with a bar from standing for electoral office ever again.

    I'm not a hang 'em and flog 'em person, but when it comes to electoral fraud I don't think you should be able to have another crack at it.

    It is not a good sign that he won so easily.
    110% turnout etc…

    Multiculturalism was invented by people who, rather arrogantly, thought immigrants to Britain would be so pleased to be let in that they’d adopt liberal, atheist/agnostic, western values.

    Not so, unfortunately. And it’s too late now
    The vast majority of immigrants to Britain have adopted British values.

    The mistake was realising how many *natives* would abandon liberal, atheist/agnostic, Western values in the face of a few social media posts!
    When were British values invented? Presumably it was some time after we abolished hanging and legalised homosexuality.
    A man who was arrested, at age 40, for shagging a 19 year old is on the fifty pound note. Hope for Andrew yet, as cultural mores change.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,356
    edited November 8

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    The scenes in Tower Hamlets would be interesting

    For those who don't know - Denmark puts limits on mono-ethnic ghettos of social housing. Including (at least threatening) *demolition* of problem blocks.

    Tower Hamlets council, which is Donald Trump level corrupt*, deliberately works to create mono-ethnic social housing - from the "right" parts of Bangladesh.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutfur_Rahman_(British_politician)
    I find it incredible that being found guilty of corrupt or illegal practices in respect of elections does not come with a bar from standing for electoral office ever again.

    I'm not a hang 'em and flog 'em person, but when it comes to electoral fraud I don't think you should be able to have another crack at it.

    It is not a good sign that he won so easily.
    110% turnout etc…

    Multiculturalism was invented by people who, rather arrogantly, thought immigrants to Britain would be so pleased to be let in that they’d adopt liberal, atheist/agnostic, western values.

    Not so, unfortunately. And it’s too late now
    The vast majority of immigrants to Britain have adopted British values.

    The mistake was realising how many *natives* would abandon liberal, atheist/agnostic, Western values in the face of a few social media posts!
    When were British values invented? Presumably it was some time after we abolished hanging and legalised homosexuality.
    Common law, the monarchy, Westminster style democracy, the Church of England and its Medieval churches and great cathedrals. Shakespeare, the English language, the Premier League, Wimbledon and Lords, our great public schools and ancient universities, the City of London, queuing, afternoon tea and Sunday roasts etc
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 5,576

    I have a suggestion to improve life for all.

    If you are using any kind of vehicle for a commercial purpose, you have to have a full license to use it (if any) *and* number plates.

    Any powered bike of any kind will be considered a motor scooter, if used for commercial purposes. So you’ll need a full license for that as well

    1) So delivery riders on scooters will have to pas their tests. No L plates.
    2) electric bike delivery riders will have to display a plate otherwise their vehicle gets confiscated on the spot.

    2 I very much support, but 1 is completely impractical. The DVSA have nothing like the spare capacity to handle such an upsurge in tests - already many test centres get completely booked out at times, and most are very busy at best. Being a motorcycle test examiner is a monotonous, thankless and badly paid job, so recruiting is difficult. Getting any motorcycle licence also requires two practical tests, not one, doubling the load. A full unrestricted 'A' licence can require as many as *six* practical tests.

    L plate riders get the right to be on the road by completing their CBT, which is a one day training course. In the motorcycle community it's widely supported that CBT riders should have to do their theory test, which at present they don't. That's very possible since that's done on a computer and the tests are already done by commercial contractors, not DVSA, so scaling for extra demand is easier.

    But... none of this is going to happen.

    The motorcycle licencing system has been broken for many years and is not fit for purpose, but not a single thing has been done about it. No government, Tory or Labour, has even proposed a single major change.
    The way to effect change is to Break Things More.

    So we get every single delivery company in the country whining at once? Excellent.
    In this case breaking things would entail tens of thousands of people losing their income. There is *zero* chance of scaling the test system to handle your suggestion.

    Delivery companies could whine all they want. The reality is there's no simple or quick fix.

    (I should also add that despite the widespread ire at riders on L plates, they are actually statistically quite unlikely to get into an accident compared to people with actual licences, so their riding can't be all that bad in general)
    My assumption based on my own experience and that reported by other people similarly run over/abused by "e-bike" delivery people is that there's naff all chance of the police taking an interest, even if you could identify them. So I'm not sure the stats tell us much other than a bit of a measure of 'why bother?'.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,224

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    The scenes in Tower Hamlets would be interesting

    For those who don't know - Denmark puts limits on mono-ethnic ghettos of social housing. Including (at least threatening) *demolition* of problem blocks.

    Tower Hamlets council, which is Donald Trump level corrupt*, deliberately works to create mono-ethnic social housing - from the "right" parts of Bangladesh.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutfur_Rahman_(British_politician)
    I find it incredible that being found guilty of corrupt or illegal practices in respect of elections does not come with a bar from standing for electoral office ever again.

    I'm not a hang 'em and flog 'em person, but when it comes to electoral fraud I don't think you should be able to have another crack at it.

    It is not a good sign that he won so easily.
    110% turnout etc…

    Multiculturalism was invented by people who, rather arrogantly, thought immigrants to Britain would be so pleased to be let in that they’d adopt liberal, atheist/agnostic, western values.

    Not so, unfortunately. And it’s too late now
    The vast majority of immigrants to Britain have adopted British values.

    The mistake was realising how many *natives* would abandon liberal, atheist/agnostic, Western values in the face of a few social media posts!
    When were British values invented? Presumably it was some time after we abolished hanging and legalised homosexuality.
    It’s easy. Gay rights, for example, is woke nonsense, unless you want to bash immigrants, when it’s a core British value.
    So true!
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 5,576
    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    The scenes in Tower Hamlets would be interesting

    For those who don't know - Denmark puts limits on mono-ethnic ghettos of social housing. Including (at least threatening) *demolition* of problem blocks.

    Tower Hamlets council, which is Donald Trump level corrupt*, deliberately works to create mono-ethnic social housing - from the "right" parts of Bangladesh.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutfur_Rahman_(British_politician)
    I find it incredible that being found guilty of corrupt or illegal practices in respect of elections does not come with a bar from standing for electoral office ever again.

    I'm not a hang 'em and flog 'em person, but when it comes to electoral fraud I don't think you should be able to have another crack at it.

    It is not a good sign that he won so easily.
    110% turnout etc…

    Multiculturalism was invented by people who, rather arrogantly, thought immigrants to Britain would be so pleased to be let in that they’d adopt liberal, atheist/agnostic, western values.

    Not so, unfortunately. And it’s too late now
    The vast majority of immigrants to Britain have adopted British values.

    The mistake was realising how many *natives* would abandon liberal, atheist/agnostic, Western values in the face of a few social media posts!
    When were British values invented? Presumably it was some time after we abolished hanging and legalised homosexuality.
    Common law, the monarchy, Westminster style democracy, the Church of England and its Medieval churches and great cathedrals. Shakespeare, the English language, the Premier League, Wimbledon and Lords, our great public schools and ancient universities, the City of London, queuing, afternoon tea and Sunday roasts etc
    Your list of "British" values is quite interesting.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,356

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    The scenes in Tower Hamlets would be interesting

    For those who don't know - Denmark puts limits on mono-ethnic ghettos of social housing. Including (at least threatening) *demolition* of problem blocks.

    Tower Hamlets council, which is Donald Trump level corrupt*, deliberately works to create mono-ethnic social housing - from the "right" parts of Bangladesh.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutfur_Rahman_(British_politician)
    I find it incredible that being found guilty of corrupt or illegal practices in respect of elections does not come with a bar from standing for electoral office ever again.

    I'm not a hang 'em and flog 'em person, but when it comes to electoral fraud I don't think you should be able to have another crack at it.

    It is not a good sign that he won so easily.
    110% turnout etc…

    Multiculturalism was invented by people who, rather arrogantly, thought immigrants to Britain would be so pleased to be let in that they’d adopt liberal, atheist/agnostic, western values.

    Not so, unfortunately. And it’s too late now
    The vast majority of immigrants to Britain have adopted British values.

    The mistake was realising how many *natives* would abandon liberal, atheist/agnostic, Western values in the face of a few social media posts!
    When were British values invented? Presumably it was some time after we abolished hanging and legalised homosexuality.
    It’s easy. Gay rights, for example, is woke nonsense, unless you want to bash immigrants, when it’s a core British value.
    So true!
    Indeed, Tommy R has no problems with the gays, though a bit with the Trans

    'I just wanted to tell you that you have so much support from many gays like myself, not only in the UK… but across the world.

    God bless you for being patriotic, for loving your country, for being proud of your heritage & history, for wanting to protect your people, freedoms & values… British values.

    I want you to know that many gays and lesbians have nothing to do with or a part of this gender & pronouns madness. We have been forcibly lumped into this crazy ideology that has nothing to do with us… the majority are silent & scared to voice their opinions out of fear of being cancelled.

    Please keep the fight going, especially regarding Islamism. It is the biggest problem & threat the western, european, christian-judeo & democratic world is facing in the 21st century.
    If we don’t learn from history & past mistakes across many countries that were once majority non Muslim, we will never learn.
    The time to act is now, there’s no time to waste.'
    https://x.com/TRobinsonNewEra/status/1793742590640091607?s=20
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,250
    ohnotnow said:

    I have a suggestion to improve life for all.

    If you are using any kind of vehicle for a commercial purpose, you have to have a full license to use it (if any) *and* number plates.

    Any powered bike of any kind will be considered a motor scooter, if used for commercial purposes. So you’ll need a full license for that as well

    1) So delivery riders on scooters will have to pas their tests. No L plates.
    2) electric bike delivery riders will have to display a plate otherwise their vehicle gets confiscated on the spot.

    2 I very much support, but 1 is completely impractical. The DVSA have nothing like the spare capacity to handle such an upsurge in tests - already many test centres get completely booked out at times, and most are very busy at best. Being a motorcycle test examiner is a monotonous, thankless and badly paid job, so recruiting is difficult. Getting any motorcycle licence also requires two practical tests, not one, doubling the load. A full unrestricted 'A' licence can require as many as *six* practical tests.

    L plate riders get the right to be on the road by completing their CBT, which is a one day training course. In the motorcycle community it's widely supported that CBT riders should have to do their theory test, which at present they don't. That's very possible since that's done on a computer and the tests are already done by commercial contractors, not DVSA, so scaling for extra demand is easier.

    But... none of this is going to happen.

    The motorcycle licencing system has been broken for many years and is not fit for purpose, but not a single thing has been done about it. No government, Tory or Labour, has even proposed a single major change.
    The way to effect change is to Break Things More.

    So we get every single delivery company in the country whining at once? Excellent.
    In this case breaking things would entail tens of thousands of people losing their income. There is *zero* chance of scaling the test system to handle your suggestion.

    Delivery companies could whine all they want. The reality is there's no simple or quick fix.

    (I should also add that despite the widespread ire at riders on L plates, they are actually statistically quite unlikely to get into an accident compared to people with actual licences, so their riding can't be all that bad in general)
    My assumption based on my own experience and that reported by other people similarly run over/abused by "e-bike" delivery people is that there's naff all chance of the police taking an interest, even if you could identify them. So I'm not sure the stats tell us much other than a bit of a measure of 'why bother?'.
    The number plates could make good trophies to hang on the wall?

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,601
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Stupidity and corruption: the classic MAGA combo.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/nov/08/kristi-noem-spirit-airlines-planes

    “The secretary of the US Department of Homeland Security (DHS), Kristi Noem, reportedly authorized the purchase of Spirit Airlines jets before discovering the airline didn’t actually own the planes – and that the aircraft lacked engines.

    “The bizarre anecdote was contained in a Wall Street Journal report released on Friday, which recounted how Noem and Corey Lewandowski – who managed Donald Trump’s first winning presidential campaign – had recently arranged to buy 10 Boeing 737 aircraft from Spirit Airlines. People familiar with the situation told the paper that the two intended to use the jets to expand deportation flights – and for personal travel.”

    When your budget exceeds the UK's defence budget, there are may opportunities for grift.

    Regarding the former, it seems the clean bill of health for Ajax was nothing more than spin (and the minister actually believing his briefing, the fool).

    Army’s new £5.5bn Ajax tanks are still making soldiers sick & deaf – despite government promises the problems are fixed
    https://x.com/jeromestarkey/status/1986827659741958216


    Oh Lord, let's just give up, give them to the Ukranians for free, and buy CV90s or Lynxes. The f***ing thing is a money pit.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,518

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    The scenes in Tower Hamlets would be interesting

    For those who don't know - Denmark puts limits on mono-ethnic ghettos of social housing. Including (at least threatening) *demolition* of problem blocks.

    Tower Hamlets council, which is Donald Trump level corrupt*, deliberately works to create mono-ethnic social housing - from the "right" parts of Bangladesh.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutfur_Rahman_(British_politician)
    I find it incredible that being found guilty of corrupt or illegal practices in respect of elections does not come with a bar from standing for electoral office ever again.

    I'm not a hang 'em and flog 'em person, but when it comes to electoral fraud I don't think you should be able to have another crack at it.

    It is not a good sign that he won so easily.
    110% turnout etc…

    Multiculturalism was invented by people who, rather arrogantly, thought immigrants to Britain would be so pleased to be let in that they’d adopt liberal, atheist/agnostic, western values.

    Not so, unfortunately. And it’s too late now
    The vast majority of immigrants to Britain have adopted British values.

    The mistake was realising how many *natives* would abandon liberal, atheist/agnostic, Western values in the face of a few social media posts!
    When were British values invented? Presumably it was some time after we abolished hanging and legalised homosexuality.
    It’s easy. Gay rights, for example, is woke nonsense, unless you want to bash immigrants, when it’s a core British value.
    Name a Muslim country with gay rights.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,530
    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    Well that is a silly prediction.

    I am quite content to put a very small wager of £20 to the charity of your choice (and vice versa) that we will not be treated any differently assuming our terms of reference are exactly the same as Denmark's. If we are screwed by the ECHR you win.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,356
    edited November 8

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    The scenes in Tower Hamlets would be interesting

    For those who don't know - Denmark puts limits on mono-ethnic ghettos of social housing. Including (at least threatening) *demolition* of problem blocks.

    Tower Hamlets council, which is Donald Trump level corrupt*, deliberately works to create mono-ethnic social housing - from the "right" parts of Bangladesh.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutfur_Rahman_(British_politician)
    I find it incredible that being found guilty of corrupt or illegal practices in respect of elections does not come with a bar from standing for electoral office ever again.

    I'm not a hang 'em and flog 'em person, but when it comes to electoral fraud I don't think you should be able to have another crack at it.

    It is not a good sign that he won so easily.
    110% turnout etc…

    Multiculturalism was invented by people who, rather arrogantly, thought immigrants to Britain would be so pleased to be let in that they’d adopt liberal, atheist/agnostic, western values.

    Not so, unfortunately. And it’s too late now
    The vast majority of immigrants to Britain have adopted British values.

    The mistake was realising how many *natives* would abandon liberal, atheist/agnostic, Western values in the face of a few social media posts!
    When were British values invented? Presumably it was some time after we abolished hanging and legalised homosexuality.
    It’s easy. Gay rights, for example, is woke nonsense, unless you want to bash immigrants, when it’s a core British value.
    Name a Muslim country with gay rights.
    Same sex sex activity is legal in Turkey, Jordan and Bahrain and West Bank Palestine but not same sex marriage.

    Lesbianism is legal in Kuwait but not gay sex
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 7,678

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    Well that is a silly prediction.

    I am quite content to put a very small wager of £20 to the charity of your choice (and vice versa) that we will not be treated any differently assuming our terms of reference are exactly the same as Denmark's. If we are screwed by the ECHR you win.
    I don't believe our terms of reference will be exactly the same as Denmark. If you can construct a reasonable bet, and decide how it can be judged, I'll take it. But I don't quite see how...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,352
    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    Well that is a silly prediction.

    I am quite content to put a very small wager of £20 to the charity of your choice (and vice versa) that we will not be treated any differently assuming our terms of reference are exactly the same as Denmark's. If we are screwed by the ECHR you win.
    I don't believe our terms of reference will be exactly the same as Denmark. If you can construct a reasonable bet, and decide how it can be judged, I'll take it. But I don't quite see how...
    It would be even funnier if such a ruling meant that Denmark had to change its policy, leading to the EU deciding that the ECHR was a threat to its sovereignty and collectively leaving.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,518
    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    The scenes in Tower Hamlets would be interesting

    For those who don't know - Denmark puts limits on mono-ethnic ghettos of social housing. Including (at least threatening) *demolition* of problem blocks.

    Tower Hamlets council, which is Donald Trump level corrupt*, deliberately works to create mono-ethnic social housing - from the "right" parts of Bangladesh.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutfur_Rahman_(British_politician)
    I find it incredible that being found guilty of corrupt or illegal practices in respect of elections does not come with a bar from standing for electoral office ever again.

    I'm not a hang 'em and flog 'em person, but when it comes to electoral fraud I don't think you should be able to have another crack at it.

    It is not a good sign that he won so easily.
    110% turnout etc…

    Multiculturalism was invented by people who, rather arrogantly, thought immigrants to Britain would be so pleased to be let in that they’d adopt liberal, atheist/agnostic, western values.

    Not so, unfortunately. And it’s too late now
    The vast majority of immigrants to Britain have adopted British values.

    The mistake was realising how many *natives* would abandon liberal, atheist/agnostic, Western values in the face of a few social media posts!
    When were British values invented? Presumably it was some time after we abolished hanging and legalised homosexuality.
    Common law, the monarchy, Westminster style democracy, the Church of England and its Medieval churches and great cathedrals. Shakespeare, the English language, the Premier League, Wimbledon and Lords, our great public schools and ancient universities, the City of London, queuing, afternoon tea and Sunday roasts etc
    You forgot trains!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,530
    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    Well that is a silly prediction.

    I am quite content to put a very small wager of £20 to the charity of your choice (and vice versa) that we will not be treated any differently assuming our terms of reference are exactly the same as Denmark's. If we are screwed by the ECHR you win.
    I don't believe our terms of reference will be exactly the same as Denmark. If you can construct a reasonable bet, and decide how it can be judged, I'll take it. But I don't quite see how...
    If you can come up with some sensible, fair terms, I'm game for a laugh.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,352

    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    The scenes in Tower Hamlets would be interesting

    For those who don't know - Denmark puts limits on mono-ethnic ghettos of social housing. Including (at least threatening) *demolition* of problem blocks.

    Tower Hamlets council, which is Donald Trump level corrupt*, deliberately works to create mono-ethnic social housing - from the "right" parts of Bangladesh.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutfur_Rahman_(British_politician)
    I find it incredible that being found guilty of corrupt or illegal practices in respect of elections does not come with a bar from standing for electoral office ever again.

    I'm not a hang 'em and flog 'em person, but when it comes to electoral fraud I don't think you should be able to have another crack at it.

    It is not a good sign that he won so easily.
    110% turnout etc…

    Multiculturalism was invented by people who, rather arrogantly, thought immigrants to Britain would be so pleased to be let in that they’d adopt liberal, atheist/agnostic, western values.

    Not so, unfortunately. And it’s too late now
    The vast majority of immigrants to Britain have adopted British values.

    The mistake was realising how many *natives* would abandon liberal, atheist/agnostic, Western values in the face of a few social media posts!
    When were British values invented? Presumably it was some time after we abolished hanging and legalised homosexuality.
    Common law, the monarchy, Westminster style democracy, the Church of England and its Medieval churches and great cathedrals. Shakespeare, the English language, the Premier League, Wimbledon and Lords, our great public schools and ancient universities, the City of London, queuing, afternoon tea and Sunday roasts etc
    You forgot trains!
    And also the important exception: no queuing in pubs.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,530

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    Well that is a silly prediction.

    I am quite content to put a very small wager of £20 to the charity of your choice (and vice versa) that we will not be treated any differently assuming our terms of reference are exactly the same as Denmark's. If we are screwed by the ECHR you win.
    I don't believe our terms of reference will be exactly the same as Denmark. If you can construct a reasonable bet, and decide how it can be judged, I'll take it. But I don't quite see how...
    It would be even funnier if such a ruling meant that Denmark had to change its policy, leading to the EU deciding that the ECHR was a threat to its sovereignty and collectively leaving.
    No it wouldn't.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,530
    edited 12:15AM

    Vernon Bogdanor has called for Tim Davie to resign over the BBC's Gaza coverage (or at least the failure to act on concerns raised).

    The thing is that Davie has a commercial background. That might have appealed to the Tories as a candidate for the role of DG. But the job of BBC News is not be be commercial. It is to be accurate. Politicians could have given a better lead on this. Being fair to Israel probably won't get the BBC so many Arabic listeners than being biased against it. But so be it. Give the world the information as best we can and let them take it or leave it. A good culture secretary should say to the BBC that if your news coverage is accurate, don't worry about ratings, we will back you.

    Does Bogdanor want Davie to go because the BBC have been pro-Gaza (maybe Jeremy Bowen) or pro-Bibi (more or less everyone else)?

    If my recollection is correct the BBC have remarkably, used Eylon Levy as their impartial commentator.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,822
    edited 12:18AM

    I have a suggestion to improve life for all.

    If you are using any kind of vehicle for a commercial purpose, you have to have a full license to use it (if any) *and* number plates.

    Any powered bike of any kind will be considered a motor scooter, if used for commercial purposes. So you’ll need a full license for that as well

    1) So delivery riders on scooters will have to pas their tests. No L plates.
    2) electric bike delivery riders will have to display a plate otherwise their vehicle gets confiscated on the spot.

    2 I very much support, but 1 is completely impractical. The DVSA have nothing like the spare capacity to handle such an upsurge in tests - already many test centres get completely booked out at times, and most are very busy at best. Being a motorcycle test examiner is a monotonous, thankless and badly paid job, so recruiting is difficult. Getting any motorcycle licence also requires two practical tests, not one, doubling the load. A full unrestricted 'A' licence can require as many as *six* practical tests.

    L plate riders get the right to be on the road by completing their CBT, which is a one day training course. In the motorcycle community it's widely supported that CBT riders should have to do their theory test, which at present they don't. That's very possible since that's done on a computer and the tests are already done by commercial contractors, not DVSA, so scaling for extra demand is easier.

    But... none of this is going to happen.

    The motorcycle licencing system has been broken for many years and is not fit for purpose, but not a single thing has been done about it. No government, Tory or Labour, has even proposed a single major change.
    I think you should mention how fucked the test system is right now...

    Booking a test without paying the front running shysters means you will likely be waiting 6 months for an exam,*1 Therefore you book anything anywhere*2 and then await a cancellation somewhere closer. Course the market now provides a load of apps and web services to help you snipe your fellow trainees. Sniping comes at a cost of money and unpredictability. And for the truly desperate: black market tests are openly available at 5X > the actual cost.

    The system is fucked but it hasn’t really changed in years and there is no foreseeable out for the hundreds of thousands trapped in driving purgatory.

    *1 Its good fun knowing if you fail it will be months before you can retake.

    *2, If you get up before 6am on a Monday, successfully appease the gods of shitty web-dev and appear somewhere to the top of a que of tens of thousands.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 38,384
    Does anyone think this is a bad idea?

    "UK looks to Denmark to shake up immigration system

    Home Secretary Shabana Mahmood is set to announce a shakeup of Britain’s immigration rules with reforms modelled on the Danish system, ITV News understands."

    https://www.itv.com/news/2025-11-08/uk-looks-to-denmark-to-shake-up-immigration-system
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 7,678
    edited 12:24AM

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    Well that is a silly prediction.

    I am quite content to put a very small wager of £20 to the charity of your choice (and vice versa) that we will not be treated any differently assuming our terms of reference are exactly the same as Denmark's. If we are screwed by the ECHR you win.
    I don't believe our terms of reference will be exactly the same as Denmark. If you can construct a reasonable bet, and decide how it can be judged, I'll take it. But I don't quite see how...
    It would be even funnier if such a ruling meant that Denmark had to change its policy, leading to the EU deciding that the ECHR was a threat to its sovereignty and collectively leaving.
    As always, it's important to remember that the EU hasn't joined the ECHR yet because the ECJ says it's not legally compatible with EU law:

    https://www.coe.int/en/web/human-rights-intergovernmental-cooperation/accession-of-the-european-union-to-the-european-convention-on-human-rights
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 7,678

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    Well that is a silly prediction.

    I am quite content to put a very small wager of £20 to the charity of your choice (and vice versa) that we will not be treated any differently assuming our terms of reference are exactly the same as Denmark's. If we are screwed by the ECHR you win.
    I don't believe our terms of reference will be exactly the same as Denmark. If you can construct a reasonable bet, and decide how it can be judged, I'll take it. But I don't quite see how...
    If you can come up with some sensible, fair terms, I'm game for a laugh.
    For a start, I think we'd need to know if Denmark's system has been challenged at Strasbourg. Remember not every country has an equivalent of our HRA, so unless someone challenges it at european level, perhaps Danish judges don't even need to consider the ECHR.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,530
    edited 12:28AM
    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    The scenes in Tower Hamlets would be interesting

    For those who don't know - Denmark puts limits on mono-ethnic ghettos of social housing. Including (at least threatening) *demolition* of problem blocks.

    Tower Hamlets council, which is Donald Trump level corrupt*, deliberately works to create mono-ethnic social housing - from the "right" parts of Bangladesh.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutfur_Rahman_(British_politician)
    I find it incredible that being found guilty of corrupt or illegal practices in respect of elections does not come with a bar from standing for electoral office ever again.

    I'm not a hang 'em and flog 'em person, but when it comes to electoral fraud I don't think you should be able to have another crack at it.

    It is not a good sign that he won so easily.
    110% turnout etc…

    Multiculturalism was invented by people who, rather arrogantly, thought immigrants to Britain would be so pleased to be let in that they’d adopt liberal, atheist/agnostic, western values.

    Not so, unfortunately. And it’s too late now
    You mean like Rishi Sunak, Sajid Javid, Suella Braverman and Kemi Badenoch's parents? They look to have integrated themselves and their children into Britain's society perfectly to me.

    Or do you mean different people whose skin colour is a little darker than ours?

    Don't forget we voted for Brexit because we didn't like white Eastern Europeans, and we sent them packing with their tails between their legs . Boris Johnson came up with a solution to cover any employment shortfall. "We can invite our friends over from the Indian sub- Continent to do those jobs we don't want to do"* Good on Boris!

    * My precis, but I suspect that you get my drift.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,530
    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    Well that is a silly prediction.

    I am quite content to put a very small wager of £20 to the charity of your choice (and vice versa) that we will not be treated any differently assuming our terms of reference are exactly the same as Denmark's. If we are screwed by the ECHR you win.
    I don't believe our terms of reference will be exactly the same as Denmark. If you can construct a reasonable bet, and decide how it can be judged, I'll take it. But I don't quite see how...
    If you can come up with some sensible, fair terms, I'm game for a laugh.
    For a start, I think we'd need to know if Denmark's system has been challenged at Strasbourg. Remember not every country has an equivalent of our HRA, so unless someone challenges it at european level, perhaps Danish judges don't even need to consider the ECHR.
    Fair enough. But if you think of a solution at any time between now and the ruling in 2035 I am happy to forward my score to an adjudicator.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,976

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    The scenes in Tower Hamlets would be interesting

    For those who don't know - Denmark puts limits on mono-ethnic ghettos of social housing. Including (at least threatening) *demolition* of problem blocks.

    Tower Hamlets council, which is Donald Trump level corrupt*, deliberately works to create mono-ethnic social housing - from the "right" parts of Bangladesh.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutfur_Rahman_(British_politician)
    I find it incredible that being found guilty of corrupt or illegal practices in respect of elections does not come with a bar from standing for electoral office ever again.

    I'm not a hang 'em and flog 'em person, but when it comes to electoral fraud I don't think you should be able to have another crack at it.

    It is not a good sign that he won so easily.
    110% turnout etc…

    Multiculturalism was invented by people who, rather arrogantly, thought immigrants to Britain would be so pleased to be let in that they’d adopt liberal, atheist/agnostic, western values.

    Not so, unfortunately. And it’s too late now
    You mean like Rishi Sunak, Sajid Javid, Suella Braverman and Kemi Badenoch's parents? They look to have integrated themselves and their children into Britain's society perfectly to me.

    Or do you mean different people whose skin colour is a little darker than ours?

    Don't forget we voted for Brexit because we didn't like white Eastern Europeans, and we sent them packing with their tails between their legs . Boris Johnson came up with a solution to cover any employment shortfall. "We can invite our friends over from the Indian sub- Continent to do those jobs we don't want to do"* Good on Boris!

    * My precis, but I suspect that you get my drift.
    Are a Kemi Badenoch’s parents UK immigrants?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,748
    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think this is a bad idea?

    "UK looks to Denmark to shake up immigration system

    Home Secretary Shabana Mahmood is set to announce a shakeup of Britain’s immigration rules with reforms modelled on the Danish system, ITV News understands."

    https://www.itv.com/news/2025-11-08/uk-looks-to-denmark-to-shake-up-immigration-system

    Labour MPs apparently.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,578

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think this is a bad idea?

    "UK looks to Denmark to shake up immigration system

    Home Secretary Shabana Mahmood is set to announce a shakeup of Britain’s immigration rules with reforms modelled on the Danish system, ITV News understands."

    https://www.itv.com/news/2025-11-08/uk-looks-to-denmark-to-shake-up-immigration-system

    Labour MPs apparently.
    Labour MPs are revolting.
  • The_WoodpeckerThe_Woodpecker Posts: 521

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think this is a bad idea?

    "UK looks to Denmark to shake up immigration system

    Home Secretary Shabana Mahmood is set to announce a shakeup of Britain’s immigration rules with reforms modelled on the Danish system, ITV News understands."

    https://www.itv.com/news/2025-11-08/uk-looks-to-denmark-to-shake-up-immigration-system

    Labour MPs apparently.
    Labour MPs are revolting.
    Brilliant!!
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 5,484
    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    Well that is a silly prediction.

    I am quite content to put a very small wager of £20 to the charity of your choice (and vice versa) that we will not be treated any differently assuming our terms of reference are exactly the same as Denmark's. If we are screwed by the ECHR you win.
    I don't believe our terms of reference will be exactly the same as Denmark. If you can construct a reasonable bet, and decide how it can be judged, I'll take it. But I don't quite see how...
    It would be even funnier if such a ruling meant that Denmark had to change its policy, leading to the EU deciding that the ECHR was a threat to its sovereignty and collectively leaving.
    As always, it's important to remember that the EU hasn't joined the ECHR yet because the ECJ says it's not legally compatible with EU law:

    https://www.coe.int/en/web/human-rights-intergovernmental-cooperation/accession-of-the-european-union-to-the-european-convention-on-human-rights
    Wait what? So members have to join but the club as a whole does not? How does that work?
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,556

    I have a suggestion to improve life for all.

    If you are using any kind of vehicle for a commercial purpose, you have to have a full license to use it (if any) *and* number plates.

    Any powered bike of any kind will be considered a motor scooter, if used for commercial purposes. So you’ll need a full license for that as well

    1) So delivery riders on scooters will have to pas their tests. No L plates.
    2) electric bike delivery riders will have to display a plate otherwise their vehicle gets confiscated on the spot.

    2 I very much support, but 1 is completely impractical. The DVSA have nothing like the spare capacity to handle such an upsurge in tests - already many test centres get completely booked out at times, and most are very busy at best. Being a motorcycle test examiner is a monotonous, thankless and badly paid job, so recruiting is difficult. Getting any motorcycle licence also requires two practical tests, not one, doubling the load. A full unrestricted 'A' licence can require as many as *six* practical tests.

    L plate riders get the right to be on the road by completing their CBT, which is a one day training course. In the motorcycle community it's widely supported that CBT riders should have to do their theory test, which at present they don't. That's very possible since that's done on a computer and the tests are already done by commercial contractors, not DVSA, so scaling for extra demand is easier.

    But... none of this is going to happen.

    The motorcycle licencing system has been broken for many years and is not fit for purpose, but not a single thing has been done about it. No government, Tory or Labour, has even proposed a single major change.
    I think you should mention how fucked the test system is right now...

    Booking a test without paying the front running shysters means you will likely be waiting 6 months for an exam,*1 Therefore you book anything anywhere*2 and then await a cancellation somewhere closer. Course the market now provides a load of apps and web services to help you snipe your fellow trainees. Sniping comes at a cost of money and unpredictability. And for the truly desperate: black market tests are openly available at 5X > the actual cost.

    The system is fucked but it hasn’t really changed in years and there is no foreseeable out for the hundreds of thousands trapped in driving purgatory.

    *1 Its good fun knowing if you fail it will be months before you can retake.

    *2, If you get up before 6am on a Monday, successfully appease the gods of shitty web-dev and appear somewhere to the top of a que of tens of thousands.
    The weirdest bit of this is that the system could be fixed overnight (or at least made much better) by requiring you to enter a driving license number when booking, and then restricting block bookings by scalpers by some combination of:
    Only letting you book a maximum of 1 test per licence number at a time.
    Making tests non-transferable.

    Granted, this won't solve the problem of too many candidates, not enough testers, but it will at least wipe the touts out, and make the whole experience a bit more user friendly. But for some reason, politicians of all stripes seem reluctant to make the change - I can only assume the touts have really good lobbyists (or worse) as there's no other rational explanation (there's certainly very few votes in keeping the status quo).
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 62,271
    theProle said:

    I have a suggestion to improve life for all.

    If you are using any kind of vehicle for a commercial purpose, you have to have a full license to use it (if any) *and* number plates.

    Any powered bike of any kind will be considered a motor scooter, if used for commercial purposes. So you’ll need a full license for that as well

    1) So delivery riders on scooters will have to pas their tests. No L plates.
    2) electric bike delivery riders will have to display a plate otherwise their vehicle gets confiscated on the spot.

    2 I very much support, but 1 is completely impractical. The DVSA have nothing like the spare capacity to handle such an upsurge in tests - already many test centres get completely booked out at times, and most are very busy at best. Being a motorcycle test examiner is a monotonous, thankless and badly paid job, so recruiting is difficult. Getting any motorcycle licence also requires two practical tests, not one, doubling the load. A full unrestricted 'A' licence can require as many as *six* practical tests.

    L plate riders get the right to be on the road by completing their CBT, which is a one day training course. In the motorcycle community it's widely supported that CBT riders should have to do their theory test, which at present they don't. That's very possible since that's done on a computer and the tests are already done by commercial contractors, not DVSA, so scaling for extra demand is easier.

    But... none of this is going to happen.

    The motorcycle licencing system has been broken for many years and is not fit for purpose, but not a single thing has been done about it. No government, Tory or Labour, has even proposed a single major change.
    I think you should mention how fucked the test system is right now...

    Booking a test without paying the front running shysters means you will likely be waiting 6 months for an exam,*1 Therefore you book anything anywhere*2 and then await a cancellation somewhere closer. Course the market now provides a load of apps and web services to help you snipe your fellow trainees. Sniping comes at a cost of money and unpredictability. And for the truly desperate: black market tests are openly available at 5X > the actual cost.

    The system is fucked but it hasn’t really changed in years and there is no foreseeable out for the hundreds of thousands trapped in driving purgatory.

    *1 Its good fun knowing if you fail it will be months before you can retake.

    *2, If you get up before 6am on a Monday, successfully appease the gods of shitty web-dev and appear somewhere to the top of a que of tens of thousands.
    The weirdest bit of this is that the system could be fixed overnight (or at least made much better) by requiring you to enter a driving license number when booking, and then restricting block bookings by scalpers by some combination of:
    Only letting you book a maximum of 1 test per licence number at a time.
    Making tests non-transferable.

    Granted, this won't solve the problem of too many candidates, not enough testers, but it will at least wipe the touts out, and make the whole experience a bit more user friendly. But for some reason, politicians of all stripes seem reluctant to make the change - I can only assume the touts have really good lobbyists (or worse) as there's no other rational explanation (there's certainly very few votes in keeping the status quo).
    In the US, we're currently enduring a similar level of fuckedness around driving tests/licenses, but for different reasons.

    In the old days, you could pretty much turn up at the DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) with de minimis ID and get yourself a driving license. Which would then be your ID going forward.

    Because large nunbers of Americans, historically, didn't have passports.

    About 20 years ago, in the aftermath of 9/11 and the "War on Terror", it was noted that the whole US driving license thing was absurdly easy to get, and an absolute goldmine for fraudsters, terrorists, the undocumented, etc.

    Staring this year (in a parting gift from Joe Biden to Donald Trump), if you want to use your driving license to take a flight in the US, you need a Real ID driving license, which large numbers of people don't have. This is causing two lots of massive queues: at airports - where some TSA staff and airlines shrug and ignore the regulations, while others don't), and at DMV offices.

    People are turning up for their tests, without the required number of documents, and are being turned away. Which means that the average wait for a driving test in California has gone from a matter of a week or two, to several months. One of my son's friends triumphantly told his class that he'd managed to secure a test. In Modesto. And I'm not sure exactly where that is, but it's nowhere near LA.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,601
    edited 2:55AM

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    Well that is a silly prediction.

    I am quite content to put a very small wager of £20 to the charity of your choice (and vice versa) that we will not be treated any differently assuming our terms of reference are exactly the same as Denmark's. If we are screwed by the ECHR you win.
    I don't believe our terms of reference will be exactly the same as Denmark. If you can construct a reasonable bet, and decide how it can be judged, I'll take it. But I don't quite see how...
    It would be even funnier if such a ruling meant that Denmark had to change its policy, leading to the EU deciding that the ECHR was a threat to its sovereignty and collectively leaving.
    As always, it's important to remember that the EU hasn't joined the ECHR yet because the ECJ says it's not legally compatible with EU law:

    https://www.coe.int/en/web/human-rights-intergovernmental-cooperation/accession-of-the-european-union-to-the-european-convention-on-human-rights
    Wait what? So members have to join but the club as a whole does not? How does that work?
    @Flatlander

    * The EHRC (European Human Rights Convention) is governed by the ECtHR (European Court of Human Rights, aka "the Strasbourg Court"). Both are part of the Council of Europe (48 states including us), not the European Union (27 states not including us)

    * I think from memory that the EU is a legal entity (it was one of the bones of contention during the pre-Brexit days) and so can sign it in its own right

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,601
    viewcode said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    Well that is a silly prediction.

    I am quite content to put a very small wager of £20 to the charity of your choice (and vice versa) that we will not be treated any differently assuming our terms of reference are exactly the same as Denmark's. If we are screwed by the ECHR you win.
    I don't believe our terms of reference will be exactly the same as Denmark. If you can construct a reasonable bet, and decide how it can be judged, I'll take it. But I don't quite see how...
    It would be even funnier if such a ruling meant that Denmark had to change its policy, leading to the EU deciding that the ECHR was a threat to its sovereignty and collectively leaving.
    As always, it's important to remember that the EU hasn't joined the ECHR yet because the ECJ says it's not legally compatible with EU law:

    https://www.coe.int/en/web/human-rights-intergovernmental-cooperation/accession-of-the-european-union-to-the-european-convention-on-human-rights
    Wait what? So members have to join but the club as a whole does not? How does that work?
    @Flatlander

    * The EHRC (European Human Rights Convention) is governed by the ECtHR (European Court of Human Rights, aka "the Strasbourg Court"). Both are part of the Council of Europe (48 states including us), not the European Union (27 states not including us)

    * I think from memory that the EU is a legal entity (it was one of the bones of contention during the pre-Brexit days) and so can sign it in its own right

    Of course, it would have helped if I had the right acronym: it's the ECHR (European Convention on Human Rights), not the EHRC (European Human Rights Convention). I am stupid and you should not listen to me :)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 62,271
    viewcode said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    Well that is a silly prediction.

    I am quite content to put a very small wager of £20 to the charity of your choice (and vice versa) that we will not be treated any differently assuming our terms of reference are exactly the same as Denmark's. If we are screwed by the ECHR you win.
    I don't believe our terms of reference will be exactly the same as Denmark. If you can construct a reasonable bet, and decide how it can be judged, I'll take it. But I don't quite see how...
    It would be even funnier if such a ruling meant that Denmark had to change its policy, leading to the EU deciding that the ECHR was a threat to its sovereignty and collectively leaving.
    As always, it's important to remember that the EU hasn't joined the ECHR yet because the ECJ says it's not legally compatible with EU law:

    https://www.coe.int/en/web/human-rights-intergovernmental-cooperation/accession-of-the-european-union-to-the-european-convention-on-human-rights
    Wait what? So members have to join but the club as a whole does not? How does that work?
    @Flatlander

    * The EHRC (European Human Rights Convention) is governed by the ECtHR (European Court of Human Rights, aka "the Strasbourg Court"). Both are part of the Council of Europe (48 states including us), not the European Union (27 states not including us)

    * I think from memory that the EU is a legal entity (it was one of the bones of contention during the pre-Brexit days) and so can sign it in its own right

    IIRC, the EHRC said that the EU could not be a signatory, as only nation states can be signatories, not supranational bodies.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 83,022
    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Stupidity and corruption: the classic MAGA combo.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/nov/08/kristi-noem-spirit-airlines-planes

    “The secretary of the US Department of Homeland Security (DHS), Kristi Noem, reportedly authorized the purchase of Spirit Airlines jets before discovering the airline didn’t actually own the planes – and that the aircraft lacked engines.

    “The bizarre anecdote was contained in a Wall Street Journal report released on Friday, which recounted how Noem and Corey Lewandowski – who managed Donald Trump’s first winning presidential campaign – had recently arranged to buy 10 Boeing 737 aircraft from Spirit Airlines. People familiar with the situation told the paper that the two intended to use the jets to expand deportation flights – and for personal travel.”

    When your budget exceeds the UK's defence budget, there are may opportunities for grift.

    Regarding the former, it seems the clean bill of health for Ajax was nothing more than spin (and the minister actually believing his briefing, the fool).

    Army’s new £5.5bn Ajax tanks are still making soldiers sick & deaf – despite government promises the problems are fixed
    https://x.com/jeromestarkey/status/1986827659741958216


    Oh Lord, let's just give up, give them to the Ukranians for free, and buy CV90s or Lynxes. The f***ing thing is a money pit.
    The CV90 is cheaper, less problematic, and can be built by BAE.
    It's really strange how we can persist squandering money on vastly expensive programs which are acknowledge to be flawed early in their development when known, workable alternatives are available.

    And then we can improvise stuff like this at short notice.
    The first released onboard footage of a UK-supplied Raven SAM system in Ukrainian service shooting down Russian Kh-59 and Kh-101 cruise missiles.

    The Raven, scratch-built by British engineers in a matter of weeks, has proven to be a highly effective low-cost system.

    https://x.com/Osinttechnical/status/1986930861963673939

    There is surely a lesson here for defence procurement ?

    And then we have great systems like Meteor, which half of our fighters can't even carry...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,146
    Nigelb said:

    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Stupidity and corruption: the classic MAGA combo.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/nov/08/kristi-noem-spirit-airlines-planes

    “The secretary of the US Department of Homeland Security (DHS), Kristi Noem, reportedly authorized the purchase of Spirit Airlines jets before discovering the airline didn’t actually own the planes – and that the aircraft lacked engines.

    “The bizarre anecdote was contained in a Wall Street Journal report released on Friday, which recounted how Noem and Corey Lewandowski – who managed Donald Trump’s first winning presidential campaign – had recently arranged to buy 10 Boeing 737 aircraft from Spirit Airlines. People familiar with the situation told the paper that the two intended to use the jets to expand deportation flights – and for personal travel.”

    When your budget exceeds the UK's defence budget, there are may opportunities for grift.

    Regarding the former, it seems the clean bill of health for Ajax was nothing more than spin (and the minister actually believing his briefing, the fool).

    Army’s new £5.5bn Ajax tanks are still making soldiers sick & deaf – despite government promises the problems are fixed
    https://x.com/jeromestarkey/status/1986827659741958216


    Oh Lord, let's just give up, give them to the Ukranians for free, and buy CV90s or Lynxes. The f***ing thing is a money pit.
    The CV90 is cheaper, less problematic, and can be built by BAE.
    It's really strange how we can persist squandering money on vastly expensive programs which are acknowledge to be flawed early in their development when known, workable alternatives are available.

    And then we can improvise stuff like this at short notice.
    The first released onboard footage of a UK-supplied Raven SAM system in Ukrainian service shooting down Russian Kh-59 and Kh-101 cruise missiles.

    The Raven, scratch-built by British engineers in a matter of weeks, has proven to be a highly effective low-cost system.

    https://x.com/Osinttechnical/status/1986930861963673939

    There is surely a lesson here for defence procurement ?

    And then we have great systems like Meteor, which half of our fighters can't even carry...
    I know that we should always prepare to fight the next war, but most of Western military procurement appears very much still focussed not even on the current war but still on the last one.

    A massive well done to everyone involved in the Ukranian Raven and Gravehawk projects, and there’s likely a number of other improvised weapons systems projects we don’t yet know about.
    https://theaviationist.com/2025/05/12/raven-air-defense-system-revealed/
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,666
    theProle said:

    I have a suggestion to improve life for all.

    If you are using any kind of vehicle for a commercial purpose, you have to have a full license to use it (if any) *and* number plates.

    Any powered bike of any kind will be considered a motor scooter, if used for commercial purposes. So you’ll need a full license for that as well

    1) So delivery riders on scooters will have to pas their tests. No L plates.
    2) electric bike delivery riders will have to display a plate otherwise their vehicle gets confiscated on the spot.

    2 I very much support, but 1 is completely impractical. The DVSA have nothing like the spare capacity to handle such an upsurge in tests - already many test centres get completely booked out at times, and most are very busy at best. Being a motorcycle test examiner is a monotonous, thankless and badly paid job, so recruiting is difficult. Getting any motorcycle licence also requires two practical tests, not one, doubling the load. A full unrestricted 'A' licence can require as many as *six* practical tests.

    L plate riders get the right to be on the road by completing their CBT, which is a one day training course. In the motorcycle community it's widely supported that CBT riders should have to do their theory test, which at present they don't. That's very possible since that's done on a computer and the tests are already done by commercial contractors, not DVSA, so scaling for extra demand is easier.

    But... none of this is going to happen.

    The motorcycle licencing system has been broken for many years and is not fit for purpose, but not a single thing has been done about it. No government, Tory or Labour, has even proposed a single major change.
    I think you should mention how fucked the test system is right now...

    Booking a test without paying the front running shysters means you will likely be waiting 6 months for an exam,*1 Therefore you book anything anywhere*2 and then await a cancellation somewhere closer. Course the market now provides a load of apps and web services to help you snipe your fellow trainees. Sniping comes at a cost of money and unpredictability. And for the truly desperate: black market tests are openly available at 5X > the actual cost.

    The system is fucked but it hasn’t really changed in years and there is no foreseeable out for the hundreds of thousands trapped in driving purgatory.

    *1 Its good fun knowing if you fail it will be months before you can retake.

    *2, If you get up before 6am on a Monday, successfully appease the gods of shitty web-dev and appear somewhere to the top of a que of tens of thousands.
    The weirdest bit of this is that the system could be fixed overnight (or at least made much better) by requiring you to enter a driving license number when booking, and then restricting block bookings by scalpers by some combination of:
    Only letting you book a maximum of 1 test per licence number at a time.
    Making tests non-transferable.

    Granted, this won't solve the problem of too many candidates, not enough testers, but it will at least wipe the touts out, and make the whole experience a bit more user friendly. But for some reason, politicians of all stripes seem reluctant to make the change - I can only assume the touts have really good lobbyists (or worse) as there's no other rational explanation (there's certainly very few votes in keeping the status quo).
    It is irrelevant. Cutting out touts will, as you say, not address the underlying shortages (and we should note that many of the touts are actually driving schools trying to do the best for their pupils). The touts question itself does not justify expending any ministerial brain power (itself a scarce resource).

    What we need is more examiners.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,666
    rcs1000 said:

    theProle said:

    I have a suggestion to improve life for all.

    If you are using any kind of vehicle for a commercial purpose, you have to have a full license to use it (if any) *and* number plates.

    Any powered bike of any kind will be considered a motor scooter, if used for commercial purposes. So you’ll need a full license for that as well

    1) So delivery riders on scooters will have to pas their tests. No L plates.
    2) electric bike delivery riders will have to display a plate otherwise their vehicle gets confiscated on the spot.

    2 I very much support, but 1 is completely impractical. The DVSA have nothing like the spare capacity to handle such an upsurge in tests - already many test centres get completely booked out at times, and most are very busy at best. Being a motorcycle test examiner is a monotonous, thankless and badly paid job, so recruiting is difficult. Getting any motorcycle licence also requires two practical tests, not one, doubling the load. A full unrestricted 'A' licence can require as many as *six* practical tests.

    L plate riders get the right to be on the road by completing their CBT, which is a one day training course. In the motorcycle community it's widely supported that CBT riders should have to do their theory test, which at present they don't. That's very possible since that's done on a computer and the tests are already done by commercial contractors, not DVSA, so scaling for extra demand is easier.

    But... none of this is going to happen.

    The motorcycle licencing system has been broken for many years and is not fit for purpose, but not a single thing has been done about it. No government, Tory or Labour, has even proposed a single major change.
    I think you should mention how fucked the test system is right now...

    Booking a test without paying the front running shysters means you will likely be waiting 6 months for an exam,*1 Therefore you book anything anywhere*2 and then await a cancellation somewhere closer. Course the market now provides a load of apps and web services to help you snipe your fellow trainees. Sniping comes at a cost of money and unpredictability. And for the truly desperate: black market tests are openly available at 5X > the actual cost.

    The system is fucked but it hasn’t really changed in years and there is no foreseeable out for the hundreds of thousands trapped in driving purgatory.

    *1 Its good fun knowing if you fail it will be months before you can retake.

    *2, If you get up before 6am on a Monday, successfully appease the gods of shitty web-dev and appear somewhere to the top of a que of tens of thousands.
    The weirdest bit of this is that the system could be fixed overnight (or at least made much better) by requiring you to enter a driving license number when booking, and then restricting block bookings by scalpers by some combination of:
    Only letting you book a maximum of 1 test per licence number at a time.
    Making tests non-transferable.

    Granted, this won't solve the problem of too many candidates, not enough testers, but it will at least wipe the touts out, and make the whole experience a bit more user friendly. But for some reason, politicians of all stripes seem reluctant to make the change - I can only assume the touts have really good lobbyists (or worse) as there's no other rational explanation (there's certainly very few votes in keeping the status quo).
    In the US, we're currently enduring a similar level of fuckedness around driving tests/licenses, but for different reasons.

    In the old days, you could pretty much turn up at the DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) with de minimis ID and get yourself a driving license. Which would then be your ID going forward.

    Because large nunbers of Americans, historically, didn't have passports.

    About 20 years ago, in the aftermath of 9/11 and the "War on Terror", it was noted that the whole US driving license thing was absurdly easy to get, and an absolute goldmine for fraudsters, terrorists, the undocumented, etc.

    Staring this year (in a parting gift from Joe Biden to Donald Trump), if you want to use your driving license to take a flight in the US, you need a Real ID driving license, which large numbers of people don't have. This is causing two lots of massive queues: at airports - where some TSA staff and airlines shrug and ignore the regulations, while others don't), and at DMV offices.

    People are turning up for their tests, without the required number of documents, and are being turned away. Which means that the average wait for a driving test in California has gone from a matter of a week or two, to several months. One of my son's friends triumphantly told his class that he'd managed to secure a test. In Modesto. And I'm not sure exactly where that is, but it's nowhere near LA.
    Sounds ideal. Lots of driving practice on the way to the test. 300 miles of practice, according to Bing.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,680

    Stupidity and corruption: the classic MAGA combo.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/nov/08/kristi-noem-spirit-airlines-planes

    “The secretary of the US Department of Homeland Security (DHS), Kristi Noem, reportedly authorized the purchase of Spirit Airlines jets before discovering the airline didn’t actually own the planes – and that the aircraft lacked engines.

    “The bizarre anecdote was contained in a Wall Street Journal report released on Friday, which recounted how Noem and Corey Lewandowski – who managed Donald Trump’s first winning presidential campaign – had recently arranged to buy 10 Boeing 737 aircraft from Spirit Airlines. People familiar with the situation told the paper that the two intended to use the jets to expand deportation flights – and for personal travel.”

    Thats neither stupid not corrupt. She put in a non-binding offer as part of the bankruptcy process and before doing due diligence. Someone down the chain made an error (and you can’t expect her to check every detail). The purchase was stopped before any money was spent.

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,666
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,680

    I have a suggestion to improve life for all.

    If you are using any kind of vehicle for a commercial purpose, you have to have a full license to use it (if any) *and* number plates.

    Any powered bike of any kind will be considered a motor scooter, if used for commercial purposes. So you’ll need a full license for that as well

    1) So delivery riders on scooters will have to pas their tests. No L plates.
    2) electric bike delivery riders will have to display a plate otherwise their vehicle gets confiscated on the spot.

    2 I very much support, but 1 is completely impractical. The DVSA have nothing like the spare capacity to handle such an upsurge in tests - already many test centres get completely booked out at times, and most are very busy at best. Being a motorcycle test examiner is a monotonous, thankless and badly paid job, so recruiting is difficult. Getting any motorcycle licence also requires two practical tests, not one, doubling the load. A full unrestricted 'A' licence can require as many as *six* practical tests.

    L plate riders get the right to be on the road by completing their CBT, which is a one day training course. In the motorcycle community it's widely supported that CBT riders should have to do their theory test, which at present they don't. That's very possible since that's done on a computer and the tests are already done by commercial contractors, not DVSA, so scaling for extra demand is easier.

    But... none of this is going to happen.

    The motorcycle licencing system has been broken for many years and is not fit for purpose, but not a single thing has been done about it. No government, Tory or Labour, has even proposed a single major change.
    I think you should mention how fucked the test system is right now...

    Booking a test without paying the front running shysters means you will likely be waiting 6 months for an exam,*1 Therefore you book anything anywhere*2 and then await a cancellation somewhere closer. Course the market now provides a load of apps and web services to help you snipe your fellow trainees. Sniping comes at a cost of money and unpredictability. And for the truly desperate: black market tests are openly available at 5X > the actual cost.

    The system is fucked but it hasn’t really changed in years and there is no foreseeable out for the hundreds of thousands trapped in driving purgatory.

    *1 Its good fun knowing if you fail it will be months before you can retake.

    *2, If you get up before 6am on a Monday, successfully appease the gods of shitty web-dev and appear somewhere to the top of a que of tens of thousands.
    That’s a classic example of government failure - not ministerial but at a much lower level.

    I’ve been reading stories about this failure for years. And it appears that the square root of FA has been done about it. Someone in the DVLA should have fixed it.

    It should be relatively easy to make the slots not transferable and a payment made up front
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,680
    rcs1000 said:

    theProle said:

    I have a suggestion to improve life for all.

    If you are using any kind of vehicle for a commercial purpose, you have to have a full license to use it (if any) *and* number plates.

    Any powered bike of any kind will be considered a motor scooter, if used for commercial purposes. So you’ll need a full license for that as well

    1) So delivery riders on scooters will have to pas their tests. No L plates.
    2) electric bike delivery riders will have to display a plate otherwise their vehicle gets confiscated on the spot.

    2 I very much support, but 1 is completely impractical. The DVSA have nothing like the spare capacity to handle such an upsurge in tests - already many test centres get completely booked out at times, and most are very busy at best. Being a motorcycle test examiner is a monotonous, thankless and badly paid job, so recruiting is difficult. Getting any motorcycle licence also requires two practical tests, not one, doubling the load. A full unrestricted 'A' licence can require as many as *six* practical tests.

    L plate riders get the right to be on the road by completing their CBT, which is a one day training course. In the motorcycle community it's widely supported that CBT riders should have to do their theory test, which at present they don't. That's very possible since that's done on a computer and the tests are already done by commercial contractors, not DVSA, so scaling for extra demand is easier.

    But... none of this is going to happen.

    The motorcycle licencing system has been broken for many years and is not fit for purpose, but not a single thing has been done about it. No government, Tory or Labour, has even proposed a single major change.
    I think you should mention how fucked the test system is right now...

    Booking a test without paying the front running shysters means you will likely be waiting 6 months for an exam,*1 Therefore you book anything anywhere*2 and then await a cancellation somewhere closer. Course the market now provides a load of apps and web services to help you snipe your fellow trainees. Sniping comes at a cost of money and unpredictability. And for the truly desperate: black market tests are openly available at 5X > the actual cost.

    The system is fucked but it hasn’t really changed in years and there is no foreseeable out for the hundreds of thousands trapped in driving purgatory.

    *1 Its good fun knowing if you fail it will be months before you can retake.

    *2, If you get up before 6am on a Monday, successfully appease the gods of shitty web-dev and appear somewhere to the top of a que of tens of thousands.
    The weirdest bit of this is that the system could be fixed overnight (or at least made much better) by requiring you to enter a driving license number when booking, and then restricting block bookings by scalpers by some combination of:
    Only letting you book a maximum of 1 test per licence number at a time.
    Making tests non-transferable.

    Granted, this won't solve the problem of too many candidates, not enough testers, but it will at least wipe the touts out, and make the whole experience a bit more user friendly. But for some reason, politicians of all stripes seem reluctant to make the change - I can only assume the touts have really good lobbyists (or worse) as there's no other rational explanation (there's certainly very few votes in keeping the status quo).
    In the US, we're currently enduring a similar level of fuckedness around driving tests/licenses, but for different reasons.

    In the old days, you could pretty much turn up at the DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) with de minimis ID and get yourself a driving license. Which would then be your ID going forward.

    Because large nunbers of Americans, historically, didn't have passports.

    About 20 years ago, in the aftermath of 9/11 and the "War on Terror", it was noted that the whole US driving license thing was absurdly easy to get, and an absolute goldmine for fraudsters, terrorists, the undocumented, etc.

    Staring this year (in a parting gift from Joe Biden to Donald Trump), if you want to use your driving license to take a flight in the US, you need a Real ID driving license, which large numbers of people don't have. This is causing two lots of massive queues: at airports - where some TSA staff and airlines shrug and ignore the regulations, while others don't), and at DMV offices.

    People are turning up for their tests, without the required number of documents, and are being turned away. Which means that the average wait for a driving test in California has gone from a matter of a week or two, to several months. One of my son's friends triumphantly told his class that he'd managed to secure a test. In Modesto. And I'm not sure exactly where that is, but it's nowhere near LA.
    South of Sacramento, roughly on a parallel with SF
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,666

    I have a suggestion to improve life for all.

    If you are using any kind of vehicle for a commercial purpose, you have to have a full license to use it (if any) *and* number plates.

    Any powered bike of any kind will be considered a motor scooter, if used for commercial purposes. So you’ll need a full license for that as well

    1) So delivery riders on scooters will have to pas their tests. No L plates.
    2) electric bike delivery riders will have to display a plate otherwise their vehicle gets confiscated on the spot.

    2 I very much support, but 1 is completely impractical. The DVSA have nothing like the spare capacity to handle such an upsurge in tests - already many test centres get completely booked out at times, and most are very busy at best. Being a motorcycle test examiner is a monotonous, thankless and badly paid job, so recruiting is difficult. Getting any motorcycle licence also requires two practical tests, not one, doubling the load. A full unrestricted 'A' licence can require as many as *six* practical tests.

    L plate riders get the right to be on the road by completing their CBT, which is a one day training course. In the motorcycle community it's widely supported that CBT riders should have to do their theory test, which at present they don't. That's very possible since that's done on a computer and the tests are already done by commercial contractors, not DVSA, so scaling for extra demand is easier.

    But... none of this is going to happen.

    The motorcycle licencing system has been broken for many years and is not fit for purpose, but not a single thing has been done about it. No government, Tory or Labour, has even proposed a single major change.
    I think you should mention how fucked the test system is right now...

    Booking a test without paying the front running shysters means you will likely be waiting 6 months for an exam,*1 Therefore you book anything anywhere*2 and then await a cancellation somewhere closer. Course the market now provides a load of apps and web services to help you snipe your fellow trainees. Sniping comes at a cost of money and unpredictability. And for the truly desperate: black market tests are openly available at 5X > the actual cost.

    The system is fucked but it hasn’t really changed in years and there is no foreseeable out for the hundreds of thousands trapped in driving purgatory.

    *1 Its good fun knowing if you fail it will be months before you can retake.

    *2, If you get up before 6am on a Monday, successfully appease the gods of shitty web-dev and appear somewhere to the top of a que of tens of thousands.
    That’s a classic example of government failure - not ministerial but at a much lower level.

    I’ve been reading stories about this failure for years. And it appears that the square root of FA has been done about it. Someone in the DVLA should have fixed it.

    It should be relatively easy to make the slots not transferable and a payment made up front
    Indeed. But it would not help in the slightest. What is needed is more examiners in order to create more test slots. I'd have thought unsuccessful driving instructors would be a good pool of potential examiners. Instructors must form a rapport with pupils, then teach effectively, and market their services. Examiners do not need this; just the driving bits.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,146

    I have a suggestion to improve life for all.

    If you are using any kind of vehicle for a commercial purpose, you have to have a full license to use it (if any) *and* number plates.

    Any powered bike of any kind will be considered a motor scooter, if used for commercial purposes. So you’ll need a full license for that as well

    1) So delivery riders on scooters will have to pas their tests. No L plates.
    2) electric bike delivery riders will have to display a plate otherwise their vehicle gets confiscated on the spot.

    2 I very much support, but 1 is completely impractical. The DVSA have nothing like the spare capacity to handle such an upsurge in tests - already many test centres get completely booked out at times, and most are very busy at best. Being a motorcycle test examiner is a monotonous, thankless and badly paid job, so recruiting is difficult. Getting any motorcycle licence also requires two practical tests, not one, doubling the load. A full unrestricted 'A' licence can require as many as *six* practical tests.

    L plate riders get the right to be on the road by completing their CBT, which is a one day training course. In the motorcycle community it's widely supported that CBT riders should have to do their theory test, which at present they don't. That's very possible since that's done on a computer and the tests are already done by commercial contractors, not DVSA, so scaling for extra demand is easier.

    But... none of this is going to happen.

    The motorcycle licencing system has been broken for many years and is not fit for purpose, but not a single thing has been done about it. No government, Tory or Labour, has even proposed a single major change.
    I think you should mention how fucked the test system is right now...

    Booking a test without paying the front running shysters means you will likely be waiting 6 months for an exam,*1 Therefore you book anything anywhere*2 and then await a cancellation somewhere closer. Course the market now provides a load of apps and web services to help you snipe your fellow trainees. Sniping comes at a cost of money and unpredictability. And for the truly desperate: black market tests are openly available at 5X > the actual cost.

    The system is fucked but it hasn’t really changed in years and there is no foreseeable out for the hundreds of thousands trapped in driving purgatory.

    *1 Its good fun knowing if you fail it will be months before you can retake.

    *2, If you get up before 6am on a Monday, successfully appease the gods of shitty web-dev and appear somewhere to the top of a que of tens of thousands.
    That’s a classic example of government failure - not ministerial but at a much lower level.

    I’ve been reading stories about this failure for years. And it appears that the square root of FA has been done about it. Someone in the DVLA should have fixed it.

    It should be relatively easy to make the slots not transferable and a payment made up front
    It’s a five-minute database change to make the driver number compulsory and unchangeable. The problem has existed for at least five years which suggests there’s a reason why people in the DVLA don’t want it changed.

    You, the driver, should be able to book a test and cancel it once booked, or change it for a different available slot for the same driver, but not change the identity of the driver on an existing booking.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,106
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: got a stack of potential bets I kind of like but nothing standing out. I may procrastinate for some time before deciding where to bet my money as the intermediate stage to the drain....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,963
    rcs1000 said:

    theProle said:

    I have a suggestion to improve life for all.

    If you are using any kind of vehicle for a commercial purpose, you have to have a full license to use it (if any) *and* number plates.

    Any powered bike of any kind will be considered a motor scooter, if used for commercial purposes. So you’ll need a full license for that as well

    1) So delivery riders on scooters will have to pas their tests. No L plates.
    2) electric bike delivery riders will have to display a plate otherwise their vehicle gets confiscated on the spot.

    2 I very much support, but 1 is completely impractical. The DVSA have nothing like the spare capacity to handle such an upsurge in tests - already many test centres get completely booked out at times, and most are very busy at best. Being a motorcycle test examiner is a monotonous, thankless and badly paid job, so recruiting is difficult. Getting any motorcycle licence also requires two practical tests, not one, doubling the load. A full unrestricted 'A' licence can require as many as *six* practical tests.

    L plate riders get the right to be on the road by completing their CBT, which is a one day training course. In the motorcycle community it's widely supported that CBT riders should have to do their theory test, which at present they don't. That's very possible since that's done on a computer and the tests are already done by commercial contractors, not DVSA, so scaling for extra demand is easier.

    But... none of this is going to happen.

    The motorcycle licencing system has been broken for many years and is not fit for purpose, but not a single thing has been done about it. No government, Tory or Labour, has even proposed a single major change.
    I think you should mention how fucked the test system is right now...

    Booking a test without paying the front running shysters means you will likely be waiting 6 months for an exam,*1 Therefore you book anything anywhere*2 and then await a cancellation somewhere closer. Course the market now provides a load of apps and web services to help you snipe your fellow trainees. Sniping comes at a cost of money and unpredictability. And for the truly desperate: black market tests are openly available at 5X > the actual cost.

    The system is fucked but it hasn’t really changed in years and there is no foreseeable out for the hundreds of thousands trapped in driving purgatory.

    *1 Its good fun knowing if you fail it will be months before you can retake.

    *2, If you get up before 6am on a Monday, successfully appease the gods of shitty web-dev and appear somewhere to the top of a que of tens of thousands.
    The weirdest bit of this is that the system could be fixed overnight (or at least made much better) by requiring you to enter a driving license number when booking, and then restricting block bookings by scalpers by some combination of:
    Only letting you book a maximum of 1 test per licence number at a time.
    Making tests non-transferable.

    Granted, this won't solve the problem of too many candidates, not enough testers, but it will at least wipe the touts out, and make the whole experience a bit more user friendly. But for some reason, politicians of all stripes seem reluctant to make the change - I can only assume the touts have really good lobbyists (or worse) as there's no other rational explanation (there's certainly very few votes in keeping the status quo).
    In the US, we're currently enduring a similar level of fuckedness around driving tests/licenses, but for different reasons.

    In the old days, you could pretty much turn up at the DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) with de minimis ID and get yourself a driving license. Which would then be your ID going forward.

    Because large nunbers of Americans, historically, didn't have passports.

    About 20 years ago, in the aftermath of 9/11 and the "War on Terror", it was noted that the whole US driving license thing was absurdly easy to get, and an absolute goldmine for fraudsters, terrorists, the undocumented, etc.

    Staring this year (in a parting gift from Joe Biden to Donald Trump), if you want to use your driving license to take a flight in the US, you need a Real ID driving license, which large numbers of people don't have. This is causing two lots of massive queues: at airports - where some TSA staff and airlines shrug and ignore the regulations, while others don't), and at DMV offices.

    People are turning up for their tests, without the required number of documents, and are being turned away. Which means that the average wait for a driving test in California has gone from a matter of a week or two, to several months. One of my son's friends triumphantly told his class that he'd managed to secure a test. In Modesto. And I'm not sure exactly where that is, but it's nowhere near LA.
    It’s in the San Joaquin valley about 70 miles from Sacramento.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,963

    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: got a stack of potential bets I kind of like but nothing standing out. I may procrastinate for some time before deciding where to bet my money as the intermediate stage to the drain....

    Piastsri unclassified might be a good one the way he’s driving.*

    Bearman for a podium perhaps.

    *Just making him value for a win there.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,680

    theProle said:

    I have a suggestion to improve life for all.

    If you are using any kind of vehicle for a commercial purpose, you have to have a full license to use it (if any) *and* number plates.

    Any powered bike of any kind will be considered a motor scooter, if used for commercial purposes. So you’ll need a full license for that as well

    1) So delivery riders on scooters will have to pas their tests. No L plates.
    2) electric bike delivery riders will have to display a plate otherwise their vehicle gets confiscated on the spot.

    2 I very much support, but 1 is completely impractical. The DVSA have nothing like the spare capacity to handle such an upsurge in tests - already many test centres get completely booked out at times, and most are very busy at best. Being a motorcycle test examiner is a monotonous, thankless and badly paid job, so recruiting is difficult. Getting any motorcycle licence also requires two practical tests, not one, doubling the load. A full unrestricted 'A' licence can require as many as *six* practical tests.

    L plate riders get the right to be on the road by completing their CBT, which is a one day training course. In the motorcycle community it's widely supported that CBT riders should have to do their theory test, which at present they don't. That's very possible since that's done on a computer and the tests are already done by commercial contractors, not DVSA, so scaling for extra demand is easier.

    But... none of this is going to happen.

    The motorcycle licencing system has been broken for many years and is not fit for purpose, but not a single thing has been done about it. No government, Tory or Labour, has even proposed a single major change.
    I think you should mention how fucked the test system is right now...

    Booking a test without paying the front running shysters means you will likely be waiting 6 months for an exam,*1 Therefore you book anything anywhere*2 and then await a cancellation somewhere closer. Course the market now provides a load of apps and web services to help you snipe your fellow trainees. Sniping comes at a cost of money and unpredictability. And for the truly desperate: black market tests are openly available at 5X > the actual cost.

    The system is fucked but it hasn’t really changed in years and there is no foreseeable out for the hundreds of thousands trapped in driving purgatory.

    *1 Its good fun knowing if you fail it will be months before you can retake.

    *2, If you get up before 6am on a Monday, successfully appease the gods of shitty web-dev and appear somewhere to the top of a que of tens of thousands.
    The weirdest bit of this is that the system could be fixed overnight (or at least made much better) by requiring you to enter a driving license number when booking, and then restricting block bookings by scalpers by some combination of:
    Only letting you book a maximum of 1 test per licence number at a time.
    Making tests non-transferable.

    Granted, this won't solve the problem of too many candidates, not enough testers, but it will at least wipe the touts out, and make the whole experience a bit more user friendly. But for some reason, politicians of all stripes seem reluctant to make the change - I can only assume the touts have really good lobbyists (or worse) as there's no other rational explanation (there's certainly very few votes in keeping the status quo).
    It is irrelevant. Cutting out touts will, as you say, not address the underlying shortages (and we should note that many of the touts are actually driving schools trying to do the best for their pupils). The touts question itself does not justify expending any ministerial brain power (itself a scarce resource).

    What we need is more examiners.
    Don’t be ridiculous

    It may not be the whole solution but why wouldn’t you do a small fix that makes things slightly better?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,680

    I have a suggestion to improve life for all.

    If you are using any kind of vehicle for a commercial purpose, you have to have a full license to use it (if any) *and* number plates.

    Any powered bike of any kind will be considered a motor scooter, if used for commercial purposes. So you’ll need a full license for that as well

    1) So delivery riders on scooters will have to pas their tests. No L plates.
    2) electric bike delivery riders will have to display a plate otherwise their vehicle gets confiscated on the spot.

    2 I very much support, but 1 is completely impractical. The DVSA have nothing like the spare capacity to handle such an upsurge in tests - already many test centres get completely booked out at times, and most are very busy at best. Being a motorcycle test examiner is a monotonous, thankless and badly paid job, so recruiting is difficult. Getting any motorcycle licence also requires two practical tests, not one, doubling the load. A full unrestricted 'A' licence can require as many as *six* practical tests.

    L plate riders get the right to be on the road by completing their CBT, which is a one day training course. In the motorcycle community it's widely supported that CBT riders should have to do their theory test, which at present they don't. That's very possible since that's done on a computer and the tests are already done by commercial contractors, not DVSA, so scaling for extra demand is easier.

    But... none of this is going to happen.

    The motorcycle licencing system has been broken for many years and is not fit for purpose, but not a single thing has been done about it. No government, Tory or Labour, has even proposed a single major change.
    I think you should mention how fucked the test system is right now...

    Booking a test without paying the front running shysters means you will likely be waiting 6 months for an exam,*1 Therefore you book anything anywhere*2 and then await a cancellation somewhere closer. Course the market now provides a load of apps and web services to help you snipe your fellow trainees. Sniping comes at a cost of money and unpredictability. And for the truly desperate: black market tests are openly available at 5X > the actual cost.

    The system is fucked but it hasn’t really changed in years and there is no foreseeable out for the hundreds of thousands trapped in driving purgatory.

    *1 Its good fun knowing if you fail it will be months before you can retake.

    *2, If you get up before 6am on a Monday, successfully appease the gods of shitty web-dev and appear somewhere to the top of a que of tens of thousands.
    That’s a classic example of government failure - not ministerial but at a much lower level.

    I’ve been reading stories about this failure for years. And it appears that the square root of FA has been done about it. Someone in the DVLA should have fixed it.

    It should be relatively easy to make the slots not transferable and a payment made up front
    Indeed. But it would not help in the slightest. What is needed is more examiners in order to create more test slots. I'd have thought unsuccessful driving instructors would be a good pool of potential examiners. Instructors must form a rapport with pupils, then teach effectively, and market their services. Examiners do not need this; just the driving bits.
    It will help quite a bit in terms of the customer experience and the arbitrary nature of booking a slot. The number of tests available for “legitimate learners” is a factor of the number available (in part a result of the number of examiners) and the number of tests that are diverted to touts.

    Think of it as a water utility: fixing leaks doesn’t mean you don’t need more reservoirs but helps the problem
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,680
    Sandpit said:

    I have a suggestion to improve life for all.

    If you are using any kind of vehicle for a commercial purpose, you have to have a full license to use it (if any) *and* number plates.

    Any powered bike of any kind will be considered a motor scooter, if used for commercial purposes. So you’ll need a full license for that as well

    1) So delivery riders on scooters will have to pas their tests. No L plates.
    2) electric bike delivery riders will have to display a plate otherwise their vehicle gets confiscated on the spot.

    2 I very much support, but 1 is completely impractical. The DVSA have nothing like the spare capacity to handle such an upsurge in tests - already many test centres get completely booked out at times, and most are very busy at best. Being a motorcycle test examiner is a monotonous, thankless and badly paid job, so recruiting is difficult. Getting any motorcycle licence also requires two practical tests, not one, doubling the load. A full unrestricted 'A' licence can require as many as *six* practical tests.

    L plate riders get the right to be on the road by completing their CBT, which is a one day training course. In the motorcycle community it's widely supported that CBT riders should have to do their theory test, which at present they don't. That's very possible since that's done on a computer and the tests are already done by commercial contractors, not DVSA, so scaling for extra demand is easier.

    But... none of this is going to happen.

    The motorcycle licencing system has been broken for many years and is not fit for purpose, but not a single thing has been done about it. No government, Tory or Labour, has even proposed a single major change.
    I think you should mention how fucked the test system is right now...

    Booking a test without paying the front running shysters means you will likely be waiting 6 months for an exam,*1 Therefore you book anything anywhere*2 and then await a cancellation somewhere closer. Course the market now provides a load of apps and web services to help you snipe your fellow trainees. Sniping comes at a cost of money and unpredictability. And for the truly desperate: black market tests are openly available at 5X > the actual cost.

    The system is fucked but it hasn’t really changed in years and there is no foreseeable out for the hundreds of thousands trapped in driving purgatory.

    *1 Its good fun knowing if you fail it will be months before you can retake.

    *2, If you get up before 6am on a Monday, successfully appease the gods of shitty web-dev and appear somewhere to the top of a que of tens of thousands.
    That’s a classic example of government failure - not ministerial but at a much lower level.

    I’ve been reading stories about this failure for years. And it appears that the square root of FA has been done about it. Someone in the DVLA should have fixed it.

    It should be relatively easy to make the slots not transferable and a payment made up front
    It’s a five-minute database change to make the driver number compulsory and unchangeable. The problem has existed for at least five years which suggests there’s a reason why people in the DVLA don’t want it changed.

    You, the driver, should be able to book a test and cancel it once booked, or change it for a different available slot for the same driver, but not change the identity of the driver on an existing booking.
    May be an FOI request to ask them for their reasoning as to why they don’t want it changed
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,666

    I have a suggestion to improve life for all.

    If you are using any kind of vehicle for a commercial purpose, you have to have a full license to use it (if any) *and* number plates.

    Any powered bike of any kind will be considered a motor scooter, if used for commercial purposes. So you’ll need a full license for that as well

    1) So delivery riders on scooters will have to pas their tests. No L plates.
    2) electric bike delivery riders will have to display a plate otherwise their vehicle gets confiscated on the spot.

    2 I very much support, but 1 is completely impractical. The DVSA have nothing like the spare capacity to handle such an upsurge in tests - already many test centres get completely booked out at times, and most are very busy at best. Being a motorcycle test examiner is a monotonous, thankless and badly paid job, so recruiting is difficult. Getting any motorcycle licence also requires two practical tests, not one, doubling the load. A full unrestricted 'A' licence can require as many as *six* practical tests.

    L plate riders get the right to be on the road by completing their CBT, which is a one day training course. In the motorcycle community it's widely supported that CBT riders should have to do their theory test, which at present they don't. That's very possible since that's done on a computer and the tests are already done by commercial contractors, not DVSA, so scaling for extra demand is easier.

    But... none of this is going to happen.

    The motorcycle licencing system has been broken for many years and is not fit for purpose, but not a single thing has been done about it. No government, Tory or Labour, has even proposed a single major change.
    I think you should mention how fucked the test system is right now...

    Booking a test without paying the front running shysters means you will likely be waiting 6 months for an exam,*1 Therefore you book anything anywhere*2 and then await a cancellation somewhere closer. Course the market now provides a load of apps and web services to help you snipe your fellow trainees. Sniping comes at a cost of money and unpredictability. And for the truly desperate: black market tests are openly available at 5X > the actual cost.

    The system is fucked but it hasn’t really changed in years and there is no foreseeable out for the hundreds of thousands trapped in driving purgatory.

    *1 Its good fun knowing if you fail it will be months before you can retake.

    *2, If you get up before 6am on a Monday, successfully appease the gods of shitty web-dev and appear somewhere to the top of a que of tens of thousands.
    That’s a classic example of government failure - not ministerial but at a much lower level.

    I’ve been reading stories about this failure for years. And it appears that the square root of FA has been done about it. Someone in the DVLA should have fixed it.

    It should be relatively easy to make the slots not transferable and a payment made up front
    Indeed. But it would not help in the slightest. What is needed is more examiners in order to create more test slots. I'd have thought unsuccessful driving instructors would be a good pool of potential examiners. Instructors must form a rapport with pupils, then teach effectively, and market their services. Examiners do not need this; just the driving bits.
    It will help quite a bit in terms of the customer experience and the arbitrary nature of booking a slot. The number of tests available for “legitimate learners” is a factor of the number available (in part a result of the number of examiners) and the number of tests that are diverted to touts.

    Think of it as a water utility: fixing leaks doesn’t mean you don’t need more reservoirs but helps the problem
    False analogy. Leaked water is wasted. Touted test slots are used.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,513

    I have a suggestion to improve life for all.

    If you are using any kind of vehicle for a commercial purpose, you have to have a full license to use it (if any) *and* number plates.

    Any powered bike of any kind will be considered a motor scooter, if used for commercial purposes. So you’ll need a full license for that as well

    1) So delivery riders on scooters will have to pas their tests. No L plates.
    2) electric bike delivery riders will have to display a plate otherwise their vehicle gets confiscated on the spot.

    2 I very much support, but 1 is completely impractical. The DVSA have nothing like the spare capacity to handle such an upsurge in tests - already many test centres get completely booked out at times, and most are very busy at best. Being a motorcycle test examiner is a monotonous, thankless and badly paid job, so recruiting is difficult. Getting any motorcycle licence also requires two practical tests, not one, doubling the load. A full unrestricted 'A' licence can require as many as *six* practical tests.

    L plate riders get the right to be on the road by completing their CBT, which is a one day training course. In the motorcycle community it's widely supported that CBT riders should have to do their theory test, which at present they don't. That's very possible since that's done on a computer and the tests are already done by commercial contractors, not DVSA, so scaling for extra demand is easier.

    But... none of this is going to happen.

    The motorcycle licencing system has been broken for many years and is not fit for purpose, but not a single thing has been done about it. No government, Tory or Labour, has even proposed a single major change.
    I think you should mention how fucked the test system is right now...

    Booking a test without paying the front running shysters means you will likely be waiting 6 months for an exam,*1 Therefore you book anything anywhere*2 and then await a cancellation somewhere closer. Course the market now provides a load of apps and web services to help you snipe your fellow trainees. Sniping comes at a cost of money and unpredictability. And for the truly desperate: black market tests are openly available at 5X > the actual cost.

    The system is fucked but it hasn’t really changed in years and there is no foreseeable out for the hundreds of thousands trapped in driving purgatory.

    *1 Its good fun knowing if you fail it will be months before you can retake.

    *2, If you get up before 6am on a Monday, successfully appease the gods of shitty web-dev and appear somewhere to the top of a que of tens of thousands.
    That’s a classic example of government failure - not ministerial but at a much lower level.

    I’ve been reading stories about this failure for years. And it appears that the square root of FA has been done about it. Someone in the DVLA should have fixed it.

    It should be relatively easy to make the slots not transferable and a payment made up front
    Indeed. But it would not help in the slightest. What is needed is more examiners in order to create more test slots. I'd have thought unsuccessful driving instructors would be a good pool of potential examiners. Instructors must form a rapport with pupils, then teach effectively, and market their services. Examiners do not need this; just the driving bits.
    It will help quite a bit in terms of the customer experience and the arbitrary nature of booking a slot. The number of tests available for “legitimate learners” is a factor of the number available (in part a result of the number of examiners) and the number of tests that are diverted to touts.

    Think of it as a water utility: fixing leaks doesn’t mean you don’t need more reservoirs but helps the problem
    False analogy. Leaked water is wasted. Touted test slots are used.
    Indeed, one of the ways a right-wing controversialist can fill an opinion slot is to say "blessed are the touts, for they identify the true value of things."

    The only fix to a lack of driving test slots is to have more of them. That requires more examiners, which presumably costs someone a price that people aren't prepared to pay.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,106
    Betting Post

    F1: I did choose my bets before seeing what anyone else had written here.

    Anyway, two tips: backed Antonelli each way at 8.5 (set up at a hedge at evens for two and a half times stake).

    I've also split a single stake four ways for: Ant beat Pia 2.65, Hulk/Gas score at 2.45/2.55, and Bearman top 6 at 3.4.

    Bearman was 29 for a podium, and if you've got a free bet that's worth considering.

    https://morrisf1.blogspot.com/2025/11/brazilian-grand-prix-2025-pre-race.html
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,845

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    carnforth said:

    Prediction: a British court will rule that what Denmark (under the ECHR) does is, when done in Britain, illegal due to the ECHR.

    The scenes in Tower Hamlets would be interesting

    For those who don't know - Denmark puts limits on mono-ethnic ghettos of social housing. Including (at least threatening) *demolition* of problem blocks.

    Tower Hamlets council, which is Donald Trump level corrupt*, deliberately works to create mono-ethnic social housing - from the "right" parts of Bangladesh.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutfur_Rahman_(British_politician)
    I find it incredible that being found guilty of corrupt or illegal practices in respect of elections does not come with a bar from standing for electoral office ever again.

    I'm not a hang 'em and flog 'em person, but when it comes to electoral fraud I don't think you should be able to have another crack at it.

    It is not a good sign that he won so easily.
    110% turnout etc…

    Multiculturalism was invented by people who, rather arrogantly, thought immigrants to Britain would be so pleased to be let in that they’d adopt liberal, atheist/agnostic, western values.

    Not so, unfortunately. And it’s too late now
    The vast majority of immigrants to Britain have adopted British values.

    The mistake was realising how many *natives* would abandon liberal, atheist/agnostic, Western values in the face of a few social media posts!
    When were British values invented? Presumably it was some time after we abolished hanging and legalised homosexuality.
    It’s easy. Gay rights, for example, is woke nonsense, unless you want to bash immigrants, when it’s a core British value.
    Name a Muslim country with gay rights.
    Albania.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,665

    NEW THREAD

  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,898

    Sandpit said:

    I have a suggestion to improve life for all.

    If you are using any kind of vehicle for a commercial purpose, you have to have a full license to use it (if any) *and* number plates.

    Any powered bike of any kind will be considered a motor scooter, if used for commercial purposes. So you’ll need a full license for that as well

    1) So delivery riders on scooters will have to pas their tests. No L plates.
    2) electric bike delivery riders will have to display a plate otherwise their vehicle gets confiscated on the spot.

    2 I very much support, but 1 is completely impractical. The DVSA have nothing like the spare capacity to handle such an upsurge in tests - already many test centres get completely booked out at times, and most are very busy at best. Being a motorcycle test examiner is a monotonous, thankless and badly paid job, so recruiting is difficult. Getting any motorcycle licence also requires two practical tests, not one, doubling the load. A full unrestricted 'A' licence can require as many as *six* practical tests.

    L plate riders get the right to be on the road by completing their CBT, which is a one day training course. In the motorcycle community it's widely supported that CBT riders should have to do their theory test, which at present they don't. That's very possible since that's done on a computer and the tests are already done by commercial contractors, not DVSA, so scaling for extra demand is easier.

    But... none of this is going to happen.

    The motorcycle licencing system has been broken for many years and is not fit for purpose, but not a single thing has been done about it. No government, Tory or Labour, has even proposed a single major change.
    I think you should mention how fucked the test system is right now...

    Booking a test without paying the front running shysters means you will likely be waiting 6 months for an exam,*1 Therefore you book anything anywhere*2 and then await a cancellation somewhere closer. Course the market now provides a load of apps and web services to help you snipe your fellow trainees. Sniping comes at a cost of money and unpredictability. And for the truly desperate: black market tests are openly available at 5X > the actual cost.

    The system is fucked but it hasn’t really changed in years and there is no foreseeable out for the hundreds of thousands trapped in driving purgatory.

    *1 Its good fun knowing if you fail it will be months before you can retake.

    *2, If you get up before 6am on a Monday, successfully appease the gods of shitty web-dev and appear somewhere to the top of a que of tens of thousands.
    That’s a classic example of government failure - not ministerial but at a much lower level.

    I’ve been reading stories about this failure for years. And it appears that the square root of FA has been done about it. Someone in the DVLA should have fixed it.

    It should be relatively easy to make the slots not transferable and a payment made up front
    It’s a five-minute database change to make the driver number compulsory and unchangeable. The problem has existed for at least five years which suggests there’s a reason why people in the DVLA don’t want it changed.

    You, the driver, should be able to book a test and cancel it once booked, or change it for a different available slot for the same driver, but not change the identity of the driver on an existing booking.
    May be an FOI request to ask them for their reasoning as to why they don’t want it changed
    You can be sure that someone, somewhere, is making a few bob out of it.

    Same applies to the proliferation of temporary traffic lights, although road works that require them are no more common than they ever were.
  • eekeek Posts: 31,844

    Sandpit said:

    I have a suggestion to improve life for all.

    If you are using any kind of vehicle for a commercial purpose, you have to have a full license to use it (if any) *and* number plates.

    Any powered bike of any kind will be considered a motor scooter, if used for commercial purposes. So you’ll need a full license for that as well

    1) So delivery riders on scooters will have to pas their tests. No L plates.
    2) electric bike delivery riders will have to display a plate otherwise their vehicle gets confiscated on the spot.

    2 I very much support, but 1 is completely impractical. The DVSA have nothing like the spare capacity to handle such an upsurge in tests - already many test centres get completely booked out at times, and most are very busy at best. Being a motorcycle test examiner is a monotonous, thankless and badly paid job, so recruiting is difficult. Getting any motorcycle licence also requires two practical tests, not one, doubling the load. A full unrestricted 'A' licence can require as many as *six* practical tests.

    L plate riders get the right to be on the road by completing their CBT, which is a one day training course. In the motorcycle community it's widely supported that CBT riders should have to do their theory test, which at present they don't. That's very possible since that's done on a computer and the tests are already done by commercial contractors, not DVSA, so scaling for extra demand is easier.

    But... none of this is going to happen.

    The motorcycle licencing system has been broken for many years and is not fit for purpose, but not a single thing has been done about it. No government, Tory or Labour, has even proposed a single major change.
    I think you should mention how fucked the test system is right now...

    Booking a test without paying the front running shysters means you will likely be waiting 6 months for an exam,*1 Therefore you book anything anywhere*2 and then await a cancellation somewhere closer. Course the market now provides a load of apps and web services to help you snipe your fellow trainees. Sniping comes at a cost of money and unpredictability. And for the truly desperate: black market tests are openly available at 5X > the actual cost.

    The system is fucked but it hasn’t really changed in years and there is no foreseeable out for the hundreds of thousands trapped in driving purgatory.

    *1 Its good fun knowing if you fail it will be months before you can retake.

    *2, If you get up before 6am on a Monday, successfully appease the gods of shitty web-dev and appear somewhere to the top of a que of tens of thousands.
    That’s a classic example of government failure - not ministerial but at a much lower level.

    I’ve been reading stories about this failure for years. And it appears that the square root of FA has been done about it. Someone in the DVLA should have fixed it.

    It should be relatively easy to make the slots not transferable and a payment made up front
    It’s a five-minute database change to make the driver number compulsory and unchangeable. The problem has existed for at least five years which suggests there’s a reason why people in the DVLA don’t want it changed.

    You, the driver, should be able to book a test and cancel it once booked, or change it for a different available slot for the same driver, but not change the identity of the driver on an existing booking.
    May be an FOI request to ask them for their reasoning as to why they don’t want it changed
    You can be sure that someone, somewhere, is making a few bob out of it.

    Same applies to the proliferation of temporary traffic lights, although road works that require them are no more common than they ever were.
    The purpose was to allow a driving instructor to reuse the booking.

    That is being abused so as a cancelled booking should be refunded (less an admin fee) and made available to be general public
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