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Fewer than half of Brits support retaining the monarchy – politicalbetting.com

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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,139

    HYUFD said:

    Pretty dispiriting for republicans that the most popular royal is up next in the hot seat. Charles III and all his baggage was probably their best hope for any traction and still can't get any momentum.

    Yes, it is Charles III or bust for republicans. He is less popular than his mother was and his son and Camilla, Queen Consort is far less popular then the Duke of Edinburgh or Princess of Wales are.

    So it is hardly surprising republicans are pushing the Andrew affair so hard to attack the King, as they know William is much tougher on Andrew than his father and was the one who pushed for his titles to go as well as being more popular.

    Personally though I think the King is doing a fine job, the most intellectual and well read monarch we have had for centuries, a compassionate man and even if not as charismatic as his son or as tough as his mother was deserves to see out his reign for another decade or so before retiring to Highgrove and his plants with Camilla. Certainly better our King than President Starmer or Farage
    You think KCIII will abdicate? Or you think there should be compulsory retirement for Monarchs at age 90-ish?
    More the latter
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 6,893
    StaLLMer redefining renewal

    Renewal means handing power back to people with skin in the game - people who know what their communities need most.

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1983574128578769407
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,208
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pretty dispiriting for republicans that the most popular royal is up next in the hot seat. Charles III and all his baggage was probably their best hope for any traction and still can't get any momentum.

    Yes, it is Charles III or bust for republicans. He is less popular than his mother was and his son and Camilla, Queen Consort is far less popular then the Duke of Edinburgh or Princess of Wales are.

    So it is hardly surprising republicans are pushing the Andrew affair so hard to attack the King, as they know William is much tougher on Andrew than his father and was the one who pushed for his titles to go as well as being more popular.

    Personally though I think the King is doing a fine job, the most intellectual and well read monarch we have had for centuries, a compassionate man and even if not as charismatic as his son or as tough as his mother was deserves to see out his reign for another decade or so before retiring to Highgrove and his plants with Camilla. Certainly better our King than President Starmer or Farage
    You think KCIII will abdicate? Or you think there should be compulsory retirement for Monarchs at age 90-ish?
    More the latter
    Would have robbed us of years of the reign of QEII
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,930
    Eabhal said:

    What happens if you are caught making explosives... but you're white, so you can't be a terrorist! You get headlines like...

    ITV: "Science 'nerd' guilty of making explosives in mum's garden"

    Sky: "Self-styled 'science nerd' convicted after homemade explosives found in garden shed"

    BBC: "'Nerdy' Caddington man made explosive devices in shed - court"

    Police found radioactive substances, ammunition, poison and recreational drugs as well. The guy had a previous conviction for actual bodily harm, and, to quote Sky, "After his arrest, police uncovered a stream of racist chat on WhatsApp in which Whittaker vented hate towards a Luton mosque."

    I'd like to thank the British police for preventing this wannabee terrorist from attempting to kill British Muslims.

    As a member of the science nerd community I am outraged that the News Media should pin this on nerdism, rather than racist shithousery.

    What happens if you are caught making explosives... but you're white, so you can't be a terrorist! You get headlines like...

    ITV: "Science 'nerd' guilty of making explosives in mum's garden"

    Sky: "Self-styled 'science nerd' convicted after homemade explosives found in garden shed"

    BBC: "'Nerdy' Caddington man made explosive devices in shed - court"

    Police found radioactive substances, ammunition, poison and recreational drugs as well. The guy had a previous conviction for actual bodily harm, and, to quote Sky, "After his arrest, police uncovered a stream of racist chat on WhatsApp in which Whittaker vented hate towards a Luton mosque."

    If you read the story, he was found with explosives, charged and convicted of that.

    He *claimed* to be a science nerd.

    In justification of charging him, and to push back against the “harmless nerd” narrative, the police produced evidence of racist messaging.

    The reason he wasn’t described as a terrorist (or charged as such) was that he had done anything terroristic. Yet.
    Things that aren't terrorism:

    - Trying to burn asylum hotel down
    - Blowing up ULEZ cameras with bombs
    - making bombs in a shed
    - radioactive stuff (dirty bomb?)

    Terrorism:

    - peacefully protesting the banning of a proscribed group
    - Item 1 could be classed as terrorism, but isn’t by the government
    - Blowing up ULEZ cameras is destroying things, not trying to terrorise people. Note that setting off explosions to destroy things can carry heavier sentences than “terrorism”
    - Making bombs in a shed isn't terrorising anyone. It is a different crime.
    - Fiddling around with radioactive stuff is legal/illegal depending on the nature of your experiment. Again not terrorising anyone until you use it for that.

    As to PA - you have to ask what is between Starmer’s ears. I’ve got no fucking clue, either.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,139

    rcs1000 said:

    If we were starting a country from scratch, would we choose to have a monarchy? Of course not.

    But we're not.

    And there isn't a really good reason that I can see to actually get rid of the monarchy. Nor is there any settled view on what we should replace it with.

    So, I'm voting to keep it.

    I fundamentally believe that someone shouldn't be born into a position simply by having the right parents. Why is King Charles king? Because of his mother. In no other area of life do we expect this to be the case (although nepotism is strong in politics and the arts).
    Better have a word with farmers and family business owners or indeed as you allude to the likes of Geoge W Bush, Joe Kennedy III, Ben Gummer, Hilary Benn or Scott Eastwood or Roman Kemp or Liza Minelli all who got their posts or who were helped along the way by who their parents were
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,924

    StaLLMer redefining renewal

    Renewal means handing power back to people with skin in the game - people who know what their communities need most.

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1983574128578769407

    What does that actually mean? Scratch one-man-one-vote and just have community leaders at the head of mobs? Local referenda that can vote for things that'll upset the Guardian? Some kind of libertarian paradise? What?!?
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,505

    Let's have a ballot for next Head of State. Two options:

    William Windsor
    Reopen Nominations

    I'm voting for Ron.

    Pickering?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,811
    When I was young I opposed the monarchy on the grounds that it sanctified the principle of hereditary privilege and I'd argue that case quite strongly in a loud voice with some jabbing of fingers. These days I've become a bit more susceptible to the sort of 'would the alternative be an improvement in practice?' prevarication befitting of a man in his mid-sixties. Still, if there were a Keep/Scrap referendum I'd probably vote S. It's essentially a crazy way to select a head of state.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 45,163

    HYUFD said:

    After the obsession in the media with the fact Andrew slept with a 17 year old, stupidly but legally in the UK given age of consent is 16 and over the fact he paid £8 million for the Royal Lodge lease and refurbishments for a, again legal, peppercorn rent little surprise.

    However, still a comfortable 18% lead for monarchy over republic even in the new MiC poll. A massive 66% of Tories for retaining the monarchy and a large 65% of Reform voters for retaining the monarchy as well. A significant 18% lead for retaining the monarchy amongst LD voters and a small 10% lead for the monarchy amongst Labour voters as well.

    Clearly more Green voters want a republic than to keep the monarchy but given if Polansi won a majority he would whack up tax and nationalise so much industry and suck up to Hamas harder than Corbyn so we would be a near Marxist state that would be the least of our worries.

    What is going on with people on here over the past few days trying to miminize some terrible behaviour.

    The obsession isn't JUST he did this one thing, it is the girl at the time was being trafficked, that a senior member of the royal was best buds with a profilic sex trafficer, continued that friendships for years after being convicted, let said individual into the heart of royal family with invites to parties for their kids, and then has lied repeatedly about it. And we keep finding out more and more.
    Also it was a crime where it happened
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,418
    Foss said:

    StaLLMer redefining renewal

    Renewal means handing power back to people with skin in the game - people who know what their communities need most.

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1983574128578769407

    What does that actually mean? Scratch one-man-one-vote and just have community leaders at the head of mobs? Local referenda that can vote for things that'll upset the Guardian? Some kind of libertarian paradise? What?!?
    Government by fortune cookie.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,924
    viewcode said:

    Foss said:

    StaLLMer redefining renewal

    Renewal means handing power back to people with skin in the game - people who know what their communities need most.

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1983574128578769407

    What does that actually mean? Scratch one-man-one-vote and just have community leaders at the head of mobs? Local referenda that can vote for things that'll upset the Guardian? Some kind of libertarian paradise? What?!?
    Government by fortune cookie.
    Sod that. I want government via 'truth or dare'.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,367

    Eabhal said:

    What happens if you are caught making explosives... but you're white, so you can't be a terrorist! You get headlines like...

    ITV: "Science 'nerd' guilty of making explosives in mum's garden"

    Sky: "Self-styled 'science nerd' convicted after homemade explosives found in garden shed"

    BBC: "'Nerdy' Caddington man made explosive devices in shed - court"

    Police found radioactive substances, ammunition, poison and recreational drugs as well. The guy had a previous conviction for actual bodily harm, and, to quote Sky, "After his arrest, police uncovered a stream of racist chat on WhatsApp in which Whittaker vented hate towards a Luton mosque."

    I'd like to thank the British police for preventing this wannabee terrorist from attempting to kill British Muslims.

    As a member of the science nerd community I am outraged that the News Media should pin this on nerdism, rather than racist shithousery.

    What happens if you are caught making explosives... but you're white, so you can't be a terrorist! You get headlines like...

    ITV: "Science 'nerd' guilty of making explosives in mum's garden"

    Sky: "Self-styled 'science nerd' convicted after homemade explosives found in garden shed"

    BBC: "'Nerdy' Caddington man made explosive devices in shed - court"

    Police found radioactive substances, ammunition, poison and recreational drugs as well. The guy had a previous conviction for actual bodily harm, and, to quote Sky, "After his arrest, police uncovered a stream of racist chat on WhatsApp in which Whittaker vented hate towards a Luton mosque."

    If you read the story, he was found with explosives, charged and convicted of that.

    He *claimed* to be a science nerd.

    In justification of charging him, and to push back against the “harmless nerd” narrative, the police produced evidence of racist messaging.

    The reason he wasn’t described as a terrorist (or charged as such) was that he had done anything terroristic. Yet.
    Things that aren't terrorism:

    - Trying to burn asylum hotel down
    - Blowing up ULEZ cameras with bombs
    - making bombs in a shed
    - radioactive stuff (dirty bomb?)

    Terrorism:

    - peacefully protesting the banning of a proscribed group
    - Item 1 could be classed as terrorism, but isn’t by the government
    - Blowing up ULEZ cameras is destroying things, not trying to terrorise people. Note that setting off explosions to destroy things can carry heavier sentences than “terrorism”
    - Making bombs in a shed isn't terrorising anyone. It is a different crime.
    - Fiddling around with radioactive stuff is legal/illegal depending on the nature of your experiment. Again not terrorising anyone until you use it for that.

    As to PA - you have to ask what is between Starmer’s ears. I’ve got no fucking clue, either.
    Blowing up ULEZ cameras, making bombs, and burning down asylum hotels are all very clearly acts of terrorism under the Terrorism Act.

    The very least the government can do is give us a level playing field. As farcical as it is, the PA arrests probably are too - but it's a disgrace that the same standards aren't applied to people making fucking bombs.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,811
    Foss said:

    StaLLMer redefining renewal

    Renewal means handing power back to people with skin in the game - people who know what their communities need most.

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1983574128578769407

    What does that actually mean? Scratch one-man-one-vote and just have community leaders at the head of mobs? Local referenda that can vote for things that'll upset the Guardian? Some kind of libertarian paradise? What?!?
    The big society?
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 7,565
    Eabhal said:

    What happens if you are caught making explosives... but you're white, so you can't be a terrorist! You get headlines like...

    ITV: "Science 'nerd' guilty of making explosives in mum's garden"

    Sky: "Self-styled 'science nerd' convicted after homemade explosives found in garden shed"

    BBC: "'Nerdy' Caddington man made explosive devices in shed - court"

    Police found radioactive substances, ammunition, poison and recreational drugs as well. The guy had a previous conviction for actual bodily harm, and, to quote Sky, "After his arrest, police uncovered a stream of racist chat on WhatsApp in which Whittaker vented hate towards a Luton mosque."

    I'd like to thank the British police for preventing this wannabee terrorist from attempting to kill British Muslims.

    As a member of the science nerd community I am outraged that the News Media should pin this on nerdism, rather than racist shithousery.

    What happens if you are caught making explosives... but you're white, so you can't be a terrorist! You get headlines like...

    ITV: "Science 'nerd' guilty of making explosives in mum's garden"

    Sky: "Self-styled 'science nerd' convicted after homemade explosives found in garden shed"

    BBC: "'Nerdy' Caddington man made explosive devices in shed - court"

    Police found radioactive substances, ammunition, poison and recreational drugs as well. The guy had a previous conviction for actual bodily harm, and, to quote Sky, "After his arrest, police uncovered a stream of racist chat on WhatsApp in which Whittaker vented hate towards a Luton mosque."

    If you read the story, he was found with explosives, charged and convicted of that.

    He *claimed* to be a science nerd.

    In justification of charging him, and to push back against the “harmless nerd” narrative, the police produced evidence of racist messaging.

    The reason he wasn’t described as a terrorist (or charged as such) was that he had done anything terroristic. Yet.
    Things that aren't terrorism:

    - Trying to burn asylum hotel down
    - Blowing up ULEZ cameras with bombs
    - making bombs in a shed
    - radioactive stuff (dirty bomb?)

    Terrorism:

    - peacefully protesting the banning of a proscribed group
    Holding a sign which says "I support Palestine Action" is protesting the banning in a way. But it's also supporting the banned group. Would they be arrested if the sign said "Palestine Action should not have been banned"?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,367
    edited 4:59PM
    carnforth said:

    Eabhal said:

    What happens if you are caught making explosives... but you're white, so you can't be a terrorist! You get headlines like...

    ITV: "Science 'nerd' guilty of making explosives in mum's garden"

    Sky: "Self-styled 'science nerd' convicted after homemade explosives found in garden shed"

    BBC: "'Nerdy' Caddington man made explosive devices in shed - court"

    Police found radioactive substances, ammunition, poison and recreational drugs as well. The guy had a previous conviction for actual bodily harm, and, to quote Sky, "After his arrest, police uncovered a stream of racist chat on WhatsApp in which Whittaker vented hate towards a Luton mosque."

    I'd like to thank the British police for preventing this wannabee terrorist from attempting to kill British Muslims.

    As a member of the science nerd community I am outraged that the News Media should pin this on nerdism, rather than racist shithousery.

    What happens if you are caught making explosives... but you're white, so you can't be a terrorist! You get headlines like...

    ITV: "Science 'nerd' guilty of making explosives in mum's garden"

    Sky: "Self-styled 'science nerd' convicted after homemade explosives found in garden shed"

    BBC: "'Nerdy' Caddington man made explosive devices in shed - court"

    Police found radioactive substances, ammunition, poison and recreational drugs as well. The guy had a previous conviction for actual bodily harm, and, to quote Sky, "After his arrest, police uncovered a stream of racist chat on WhatsApp in which Whittaker vented hate towards a Luton mosque."

    If you read the story, he was found with explosives, charged and convicted of that.

    He *claimed* to be a science nerd.

    In justification of charging him, and to push back against the “harmless nerd” narrative, the police produced evidence of racist messaging.

    The reason he wasn’t described as a terrorist (or charged as such) was that he had done anything terroristic. Yet.
    Things that aren't terrorism:

    - Trying to burn asylum hotel down
    - Blowing up ULEZ cameras with bombs
    - making bombs in a shed
    - radioactive stuff (dirty bomb?)

    Terrorism:

    - peacefully protesting the banning of a proscribed group
    Holding a sign which says "I support Palestine Action" is protesting the banning in a way. But it's also supporting the banned group. Would they be arrested if the sign said "Palestine Action should not have been banned"?
    Just consider the wider implications of that logic. Dystopian.

    (I concede that by the letter of the law it is, and that's mad)
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,426
    carnforth said:

    Eabhal said:

    What happens if you are caught making explosives... but you're white, so you can't be a terrorist! You get headlines like...

    ITV: "Science 'nerd' guilty of making explosives in mum's garden"

    Sky: "Self-styled 'science nerd' convicted after homemade explosives found in garden shed"

    BBC: "'Nerdy' Caddington man made explosive devices in shed - court"

    Police found radioactive substances, ammunition, poison and recreational drugs as well. The guy had a previous conviction for actual bodily harm, and, to quote Sky, "After his arrest, police uncovered a stream of racist chat on WhatsApp in which Whittaker vented hate towards a Luton mosque."

    I'd like to thank the British police for preventing this wannabee terrorist from attempting to kill British Muslims.

    As a member of the science nerd community I am outraged that the News Media should pin this on nerdism, rather than racist shithousery.

    What happens if you are caught making explosives... but you're white, so you can't be a terrorist! You get headlines like...

    ITV: "Science 'nerd' guilty of making explosives in mum's garden"

    Sky: "Self-styled 'science nerd' convicted after homemade explosives found in garden shed"

    BBC: "'Nerdy' Caddington man made explosive devices in shed - court"

    Police found radioactive substances, ammunition, poison and recreational drugs as well. The guy had a previous conviction for actual bodily harm, and, to quote Sky, "After his arrest, police uncovered a stream of racist chat on WhatsApp in which Whittaker vented hate towards a Luton mosque."

    If you read the story, he was found with explosives, charged and convicted of that.

    He *claimed* to be a science nerd.

    In justification of charging him, and to push back against the “harmless nerd” narrative, the police produced evidence of racist messaging.

    The reason he wasn’t described as a terrorist (or charged as such) was that he had done anything terroristic. Yet.
    Things that aren't terrorism:

    - Trying to burn asylum hotel down
    - Blowing up ULEZ cameras with bombs
    - making bombs in a shed
    - radioactive stuff (dirty bomb?)

    Terrorism:

    - peacefully protesting the banning of a proscribed group
    Holding a sign which says "I support Palestine Action" is protesting the banning in a way. But it's also supporting the banned group. Would they be arrested if the sign said "Palestine Action should not have been banned"?
    They should try that, it would be a cute legal precedent. It would establish whether the law restricts freedom of speech or not
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,686

    rcs1000 said:

    If we were starting a country from scratch, would we choose to have a monarchy? Of course not.

    But we're not.

    And there isn't a really good reason that I can see to actually get rid of the monarchy. Nor is there any settled view on what we should replace it with.

    So, I'm voting to keep it.

    I fundamentally believe that someone shouldn't be born into a position simply by having the right parents. Why is King Charles king? Because of his mother. In no other area of life do we expect this to be the case (although nepotism is strong in politics and the arts).
    Greg Penner is the chairman of Walmart, I believe. He's only that because he's Sam Walton's son-in-law.
    Don Jr and the even more stupid one are only where they are (recipients of boundless riches) because they’re u-know-who’s sons.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,399
    edited 5:04PM
    Britain's newest rail station: Beaulieu Park, near Chelmsford, opened Sunday. I took this pic yesterday:

    image

    A fairly substantial enterprise, with three 12-car platforms, almost full-length canopies, two footbridges, two lifts, food outlets (upcoming), a bus station, two sets of loos, and a large car park, which seemed well-used.

    Full suite of pictures here:
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search=Sunil060902+Beaulieu+Park&title=Special:MediaSearch&type=image
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,505
    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pretty dispiriting for republicans that the most popular royal is up next in the hot seat. Charles III and all his baggage was probably their best hope for any traction and still can't get any momentum.

    ...Personally though I think the King is doing a fine job, the most intellectual and well read monarch we have had for centuries, a compassionate man and even if not as charismatic as his son or as tough as his mother was deserves to see out his reign for another decade or so before retiring to Highgrove and his plants with Camilla. Certainly better our King than President Starmer or Farage
    I agree but I think he, like his mother, will die in the saddle. My concern is that that time will come too soon.

    I think he will get to 85 and then abdicated in favour of his son. If he really had pancreatic cancer he would likely be dead by now
    I think it's a huge mistake for monarchists to support abdication/retirement for monarchs.

    As soon as you get into that game, you make it a matter of choice whether the monarch stays or goes, and it's the thin end of the wedge. You get political debates about whether and when an individual should call it a day, and lose the central advantage that it's all a lottery and separate from politics.

    I'm not a monarchist myself, just saying they lose their trump card with talk of abdication.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,177
    edited 5:03PM
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If we were starting a country from scratch, would we choose to have a monarchy? Of course not.

    But we're not.

    And there isn't a really good reason that I can see to actually get rid of the monarchy. Nor is there any settled view on what we should replace it with.

    So, I'm voting to keep it.

    I fundamentally believe that someone shouldn't be born into a position simply by having the right parents. Why is King Charles king? Because of his mother. In no other area of life do we expect this to be the case (although nepotism is strong in politics and the arts).
    Better have a word with farmers and family business owners or indeed as you allude to the likes of Geoge W Bush, Joe Kennedy III, Ben Gummer, Hilary Benn or Scott Eastwood or Roman Kemp or Liza Minelli all who got their posts or who were helped along the way by who their parents were
    Because it's not required under law. Because it doesn't let these families get out of obeying the laws the rest of us do.

    You may recall your meltdown on PB at the very thought that the Royal estates in Scotland might have to follow the same housing and environmental legislation as the rest of us. Just because of whom the [edit] last PoW had for mummy.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,177
    edited 5:06PM

    Britain's newest rail station: Beaulieu Park, near Chelmsford, opened Sunday. I took this pic yesterday:


    A fairly substantial enterprise, with three 12-car platforms, almost full-length canopies, two footbridges, two lifts, food outlets (upcoming), a bus station, two sets of loos, and a large car park, which seemed well-used.

    Full suite of pictures here:
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search=Sunil060902+Beaulieu+Park&title=Special:MediaSearch&type=image

    Pic not soaked in the developer long enough? No show here. Edit: sorted, ta.

    Edit: but the full suite is visible nicely, many thanks.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,312

    StaLLMer redefining renewal

    Renewal means handing power back to people with skin in the game - people who know what their communities need most.

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1983574128578769407

    I enjoyed the top reply to that tweet - “so not Labour then.”
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,930
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    What happens if you are caught making explosives... but you're white, so you can't be a terrorist! You get headlines like...

    ITV: "Science 'nerd' guilty of making explosives in mum's garden"

    Sky: "Self-styled 'science nerd' convicted after homemade explosives found in garden shed"

    BBC: "'Nerdy' Caddington man made explosive devices in shed - court"

    Police found radioactive substances, ammunition, poison and recreational drugs as well. The guy had a previous conviction for actual bodily harm, and, to quote Sky, "After his arrest, police uncovered a stream of racist chat on WhatsApp in which Whittaker vented hate towards a Luton mosque."

    I'd like to thank the British police for preventing this wannabee terrorist from attempting to kill British Muslims.

    As a member of the science nerd community I am outraged that the News Media should pin this on nerdism, rather than racist shithousery.

    What happens if you are caught making explosives... but you're white, so you can't be a terrorist! You get headlines like...

    ITV: "Science 'nerd' guilty of making explosives in mum's garden"

    Sky: "Self-styled 'science nerd' convicted after homemade explosives found in garden shed"

    BBC: "'Nerdy' Caddington man made explosive devices in shed - court"

    Police found radioactive substances, ammunition, poison and recreational drugs as well. The guy had a previous conviction for actual bodily harm, and, to quote Sky, "After his arrest, police uncovered a stream of racist chat on WhatsApp in which Whittaker vented hate towards a Luton mosque."

    If you read the story, he was found with explosives, charged and convicted of that.

    He *claimed* to be a science nerd.

    In justification of charging him, and to push back against the “harmless nerd” narrative, the police produced evidence of racist messaging.

    The reason he wasn’t described as a terrorist (or charged as such) was that he had done anything terroristic. Yet.
    Things that aren't terrorism:

    - Trying to burn asylum hotel down
    - Blowing up ULEZ cameras with bombs
    - making bombs in a shed
    - radioactive stuff (dirty bomb?)

    Terrorism:

    - peacefully protesting the banning of a proscribed group
    - Item 1 could be classed as terrorism, but isn’t by the government
    - Blowing up ULEZ cameras is destroying things, not trying to terrorise people. Note that setting off explosions to destroy things can carry heavier sentences than “terrorism”
    - Making bombs in a shed isn't terrorising anyone. It is a different crime.
    - Fiddling around with radioactive stuff is legal/illegal depending on the nature of your experiment. Again not terrorising anyone until you use it for that.

    As to PA - you have to ask what is between Starmer’s ears. I’ve got no fucking clue, either.
    Blowing up ULEZ cameras, making bombs, and burning down asylum hotels are all very clearly acts of terrorism under the Terrorism Act.

    The very least the government can do is give us a level playing field. As farcical as it is, the PA arrests probably are too - but it's a disgrace that the same standards aren't applied to people making fucking bombs.
    Making bombs isn’t terrorism - just because a stupid government is trying to stretch terrorism to cover stuff they don’t like, doesn’t make it so.

    Terrorism is about terrorising people.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,399
    Carnyx said:

    Britain's newest rail station: Beaulieu Park, near Chelmsford, opened Sunday. I took this pic yesterday:


    A fairly substantial enterprise, with three 12-car platforms, almost full-length canopies, two footbridges, two lifts, food outlets (upcoming), a bus station, two sets of loos, and a large car park, which seemed well-used.

    Full suite of pictures here:
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search=Sunil060902+Beaulieu+Park&title=Special:MediaSearch&type=image

    Pic not soaked in the developer long enough? No show here.

    Edit: but the full suite is visible nicely, many thanks.
    I deleted from the previous thread to make sure I stay within the 1-pic quota :)

    Except I deleted from this thread by mistake, then reinserted :lol:
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,367

    Britain's newest rail station: Beaulieu Park, near Chelmsford, opened Sunday. I took this pic yesterday:

    image

    A fairly substantial enterprise, with three 12-car platforms, almost full-length canopies, two footbridges, two lifts, food outlets (upcoming), a bus station, two sets of loos, and a large car park, which seemed well-used.

    Full suite of pictures here:
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search=Sunil060902+Beaulieu+Park&title=Special:MediaSearch&type=image

    Competing with ScotRail for ugly new stations. Check out the new ones in Melbourne and cry.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,367

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    What happens if you are caught making explosives... but you're white, so you can't be a terrorist! You get headlines like...

    ITV: "Science 'nerd' guilty of making explosives in mum's garden"

    Sky: "Self-styled 'science nerd' convicted after homemade explosives found in garden shed"

    BBC: "'Nerdy' Caddington man made explosive devices in shed - court"

    Police found radioactive substances, ammunition, poison and recreational drugs as well. The guy had a previous conviction for actual bodily harm, and, to quote Sky, "After his arrest, police uncovered a stream of racist chat on WhatsApp in which Whittaker vented hate towards a Luton mosque."

    I'd like to thank the British police for preventing this wannabee terrorist from attempting to kill British Muslims.

    As a member of the science nerd community I am outraged that the News Media should pin this on nerdism, rather than racist shithousery.

    What happens if you are caught making explosives... but you're white, so you can't be a terrorist! You get headlines like...

    ITV: "Science 'nerd' guilty of making explosives in mum's garden"

    Sky: "Self-styled 'science nerd' convicted after homemade explosives found in garden shed"

    BBC: "'Nerdy' Caddington man made explosive devices in shed - court"

    Police found radioactive substances, ammunition, poison and recreational drugs as well. The guy had a previous conviction for actual bodily harm, and, to quote Sky, "After his arrest, police uncovered a stream of racist chat on WhatsApp in which Whittaker vented hate towards a Luton mosque."

    If you read the story, he was found with explosives, charged and convicted of that.

    He *claimed* to be a science nerd.

    In justification of charging him, and to push back against the “harmless nerd” narrative, the police produced evidence of racist messaging.

    The reason he wasn’t described as a terrorist (or charged as such) was that he had done anything terroristic. Yet.
    Things that aren't terrorism:

    - Trying to burn asylum hotel down
    - Blowing up ULEZ cameras with bombs
    - making bombs in a shed
    - radioactive stuff (dirty bomb?)

    Terrorism:

    - peacefully protesting the banning of a proscribed group
    - Item 1 could be classed as terrorism, but isn’t by the government
    - Blowing up ULEZ cameras is destroying things, not trying to terrorise people. Note that setting off explosions to destroy things can carry heavier sentences than “terrorism”
    - Making bombs in a shed isn't terrorising anyone. It is a different crime.
    - Fiddling around with radioactive stuff is legal/illegal depending on the nature of your experiment. Again not terrorising anyone until you use it for that.

    As to PA - you have to ask what is between Starmer’s ears. I’ve got no fucking clue, either.
    Blowing up ULEZ cameras, making bombs, and burning down asylum hotels are all very clearly acts of terrorism under the Terrorism Act.

    The very least the government can do is give us a level playing field. As farcical as it is, the PA arrests probably are too - but it's a disgrace that the same standards aren't applied to people making fucking bombs.
    Making bombs isn’t terrorism - just because a stupid government is trying to stretch terrorism to cover stuff they don’t like, doesn’t make it so.

    Terrorism is about terrorising people.
    I would agree with that (though making bombs must be a strong indication you intend to terrorise people).

    The point I'm making is that entirely inconsistent application of these laws, as silly as they are. It's infuriating.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,426

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    What happens if you are caught making explosives... but you're white, so you can't be a terrorist! You get headlines like...

    ITV: "Science 'nerd' guilty of making explosives in mum's garden"

    Sky: "Self-styled 'science nerd' convicted after homemade explosives found in garden shed"

    BBC: "'Nerdy' Caddington man made explosive devices in shed - court"

    Police found radioactive substances, ammunition, poison and recreational drugs as well. The guy had a previous conviction for actual bodily harm, and, to quote Sky, "After his arrest, police uncovered a stream of racist chat on WhatsApp in which Whittaker vented hate towards a Luton mosque."

    I'd like to thank the British police for preventing this wannabee terrorist from attempting to kill British Muslims.

    As a member of the science nerd community I am outraged that the News Media should pin this on nerdism, rather than racist shithousery.

    What happens if you are caught making explosives... but you're white, so you can't be a terrorist! You get headlines like...

    ITV: "Science 'nerd' guilty of making explosives in mum's garden"

    Sky: "Self-styled 'science nerd' convicted after homemade explosives found in garden shed"

    BBC: "'Nerdy' Caddington man made explosive devices in shed - court"

    Police found radioactive substances, ammunition, poison and recreational drugs as well. The guy had a previous conviction for actual bodily harm, and, to quote Sky, "After his arrest, police uncovered a stream of racist chat on WhatsApp in which Whittaker vented hate towards a Luton mosque."

    If you read the story, he was found with explosives, charged and convicted of that.

    He *claimed* to be a science nerd.

    In justification of charging him, and to push back against the “harmless nerd” narrative, the police produced evidence of racist messaging.

    The reason he wasn’t described as a terrorist (or charged as such) was that he had done anything terroristic. Yet.
    Things that aren't terrorism:

    - Trying to burn asylum hotel down
    - Blowing up ULEZ cameras with bombs
    - making bombs in a shed
    - radioactive stuff (dirty bomb?)

    Terrorism:

    - peacefully protesting the banning of a proscribed group
    - Item 1 could be classed as terrorism, but isn’t by the government
    - Blowing up ULEZ cameras is destroying things, not trying to terrorise people. Note that setting off explosions to destroy things can carry heavier sentences than “terrorism”
    - Making bombs in a shed isn't terrorising anyone. It is a different crime.
    - Fiddling around with radioactive stuff is legal/illegal depending on the nature of your experiment. Again not terrorising anyone until you use it for that.

    As to PA - you have to ask what is between Starmer’s ears. I’ve got no fucking clue, either.
    Blowing up ULEZ cameras, making bombs, and burning down asylum hotels are all very clearly acts of terrorism under the Terrorism Act.

    The very least the government can do is give us a level playing field. As farcical as it is, the PA arrests probably are too - but it's a disgrace that the same standards aren't applied to people making fucking bombs.
    Making bombs isn’t terrorism - just because a stupid government is trying to stretch terrorism to cover stuff they don’t like, doesn’t make it so.

    Terrorism is about terrorising people.
    This is the definition, Terrorism Act 2000. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definition_of_terrorism?wprov=sfla1 The bit about supporting banned organisations is presumably in other legislation. From the definition, burning down asylum hostels ought to be charged as terrorism

    (1) In this Act "terrorism" means the use or threat of action where:

    (a) the action falls within subsection (2),
    (b) the use or threat is designed to influence the government or to intimidate the public or a section of the public and
    (c) the use or threat is made for the purpose of advancing a political, religious or ideological cause.
    (2) Action falls within this subsection if it:

    (a) involves serious violence against a person,
    (b) involves serious damage to property,
    (c) endangers a person's life, other than that of the person committing the action,
    (d) creates a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or a section of the public or
    (e) is designed seriously to interfere with or seriously to disrupt an electronic system.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,418
    Eabhal said:

    Britain's newest rail station: Beaulieu Park, near Chelmsford, opened Sunday. I took this pic yesterday:

    image

    A fairly substantial enterprise, with three 12-car platforms, almost full-length canopies, two footbridges, two lifts, food outlets (upcoming), a bus station, two sets of loos, and a large car park, which seemed well-used.

    Full suite of pictures here:
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search=Sunil060902+Beaulieu+Park&title=Special:MediaSearch&type=image

    Competing with ScotRail for ugly new stations. Check out the new ones in Melbourne and cry.
    Indeed: https://bigbuild.vic.gov.au/use-metro-tunnel/stations
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,924

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    What happens if you are caught making explosives... but you're white, so you can't be a terrorist! You get headlines like...

    ITV: "Science 'nerd' guilty of making explosives in mum's garden"

    Sky: "Self-styled 'science nerd' convicted after homemade explosives found in garden shed"

    BBC: "'Nerdy' Caddington man made explosive devices in shed - court"

    Police found radioactive substances, ammunition, poison and recreational drugs as well. The guy had a previous conviction for actual bodily harm, and, to quote Sky, "After his arrest, police uncovered a stream of racist chat on WhatsApp in which Whittaker vented hate towards a Luton mosque."

    I'd like to thank the British police for preventing this wannabee terrorist from attempting to kill British Muslims.

    As a member of the science nerd community I am outraged that the News Media should pin this on nerdism, rather than racist shithousery.

    What happens if you are caught making explosives... but you're white, so you can't be a terrorist! You get headlines like...

    ITV: "Science 'nerd' guilty of making explosives in mum's garden"

    Sky: "Self-styled 'science nerd' convicted after homemade explosives found in garden shed"

    BBC: "'Nerdy' Caddington man made explosive devices in shed - court"

    Police found radioactive substances, ammunition, poison and recreational drugs as well. The guy had a previous conviction for actual bodily harm, and, to quote Sky, "After his arrest, police uncovered a stream of racist chat on WhatsApp in which Whittaker vented hate towards a Luton mosque."

    If you read the story, he was found with explosives, charged and convicted of that.

    He *claimed* to be a science nerd.

    In justification of charging him, and to push back against the “harmless nerd” narrative, the police produced evidence of racist messaging.

    The reason he wasn’t described as a terrorist (or charged as such) was that he had done anything terroristic. Yet.
    Things that aren't terrorism:

    - Trying to burn asylum hotel down
    - Blowing up ULEZ cameras with bombs
    - making bombs in a shed
    - radioactive stuff (dirty bomb?)

    Terrorism:

    - peacefully protesting the banning of a proscribed group
    - Item 1 could be classed as terrorism, but isn’t by the government
    - Blowing up ULEZ cameras is destroying things, not trying to terrorise people. Note that setting off explosions to destroy things can carry heavier sentences than “terrorism”
    - Making bombs in a shed isn't terrorising anyone. It is a different crime.
    - Fiddling around with radioactive stuff is legal/illegal depending on the nature of your experiment. Again not terrorising anyone until you use it for that.

    As to PA - you have to ask what is between Starmer’s ears. I’ve got no fucking clue, either.
    Blowing up ULEZ cameras, making bombs, and burning down asylum hotels are all very clearly acts of terrorism under the Terrorism Act.

    The very least the government can do is give us a level playing field. As farcical as it is, the PA arrests probably are too - but it's a disgrace that the same standards aren't applied to people making fucking bombs.
    Making bombs isn’t terrorism - just because a stupid government is trying to stretch terrorism to cover stuff they don’t like, doesn’t make it so.

    Terrorism is about terrorising people.
    If you managed to work out the legal and insurance issues you could make a fortune running blow-a-car-up-in-an-old-quarry stag-do events.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,930
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    What happens if you are caught making explosives... but you're white, so you can't be a terrorist! You get headlines like...

    ITV: "Science 'nerd' guilty of making explosives in mum's garden"

    Sky: "Self-styled 'science nerd' convicted after homemade explosives found in garden shed"

    BBC: "'Nerdy' Caddington man made explosive devices in shed - court"

    Police found radioactive substances, ammunition, poison and recreational drugs as well. The guy had a previous conviction for actual bodily harm, and, to quote Sky, "After his arrest, police uncovered a stream of racist chat on WhatsApp in which Whittaker vented hate towards a Luton mosque."

    I'd like to thank the British police for preventing this wannabee terrorist from attempting to kill British Muslims.

    As a member of the science nerd community I am outraged that the News Media should pin this on nerdism, rather than racist shithousery.

    What happens if you are caught making explosives... but you're white, so you can't be a terrorist! You get headlines like...

    ITV: "Science 'nerd' guilty of making explosives in mum's garden"

    Sky: "Self-styled 'science nerd' convicted after homemade explosives found in garden shed"

    BBC: "'Nerdy' Caddington man made explosive devices in shed - court"

    Police found radioactive substances, ammunition, poison and recreational drugs as well. The guy had a previous conviction for actual bodily harm, and, to quote Sky, "After his arrest, police uncovered a stream of racist chat on WhatsApp in which Whittaker vented hate towards a Luton mosque."

    If you read the story, he was found with explosives, charged and convicted of that.

    He *claimed* to be a science nerd.

    In justification of charging him, and to push back against the “harmless nerd” narrative, the police produced evidence of racist messaging.

    The reason he wasn’t described as a terrorist (or charged as such) was that he had done anything terroristic. Yet.
    Things that aren't terrorism:

    - Trying to burn asylum hotel down
    - Blowing up ULEZ cameras with bombs
    - making bombs in a shed
    - radioactive stuff (dirty bomb?)

    Terrorism:

    - peacefully protesting the banning of a proscribed group
    - Item 1 could be classed as terrorism, but isn’t by the government
    - Blowing up ULEZ cameras is destroying things, not trying to terrorise people. Note that setting off explosions to destroy things can carry heavier sentences than “terrorism”
    - Making bombs in a shed isn't terrorising anyone. It is a different crime.
    - Fiddling around with radioactive stuff is legal/illegal depending on the nature of your experiment. Again not terrorising anyone until you use it for that.

    As to PA - you have to ask what is between Starmer’s ears. I’ve got no fucking clue, either.
    Blowing up ULEZ cameras, making bombs, and burning down asylum hotels are all very clearly acts of terrorism under the Terrorism Act.

    The very least the government can do is give us a level playing field. As farcical as it is, the PA arrests probably are too - but it's a disgrace that the same standards aren't applied to people making fucking bombs.
    Making bombs isn’t terrorism - just because a stupid government is trying to stretch terrorism to cover stuff they don’t like, doesn’t make it so.

    Terrorism is about terrorising people.
    I would agree with that (though making bombs must be a strong indication you intend to terrorise people).

    The point I'm making is that entirely inconsistent application of these laws, as silly as they are. It's infuriating.
    If you are going to get upset by stupid, inconsistent application of laws, then you will spend the next few years busting blood vessels. We are governed by the C- crowd.

    As to making bombs, there’s still a surprising number of people who just like making a bang out in the woods. Which is why the police justified their prosecution by the racist and threatening communications.

    Hell, my brother *accidently* made gun-cotton when we were teenagers.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,511
    Eabhal said:

    carnforth said:

    Eabhal said:

    What happens if you are caught making explosives... but you're white, so you can't be a terrorist! You get headlines like...

    ITV: "Science 'nerd' guilty of making explosives in mum's garden"

    Sky: "Self-styled 'science nerd' convicted after homemade explosives found in garden shed"

    BBC: "'Nerdy' Caddington man made explosive devices in shed - court"

    Police found radioactive substances, ammunition, poison and recreational drugs as well. The guy had a previous conviction for actual bodily harm, and, to quote Sky, "After his arrest, police uncovered a stream of racist chat on WhatsApp in which Whittaker vented hate towards a Luton mosque."

    I'd like to thank the British police for preventing this wannabee terrorist from attempting to kill British Muslims.

    As a member of the science nerd community I am outraged that the News Media should pin this on nerdism, rather than racist shithousery.

    What happens if you are caught making explosives... but you're white, so you can't be a terrorist! You get headlines like...

    ITV: "Science 'nerd' guilty of making explosives in mum's garden"

    Sky: "Self-styled 'science nerd' convicted after homemade explosives found in garden shed"

    BBC: "'Nerdy' Caddington man made explosive devices in shed - court"

    Police found radioactive substances, ammunition, poison and recreational drugs as well. The guy had a previous conviction for actual bodily harm, and, to quote Sky, "After his arrest, police uncovered a stream of racist chat on WhatsApp in which Whittaker vented hate towards a Luton mosque."

    If you read the story, he was found with explosives, charged and convicted of that.

    He *claimed* to be a science nerd.

    In justification of charging him, and to push back against the “harmless nerd” narrative, the police produced evidence of racist messaging.

    The reason he wasn’t described as a terrorist (or charged as such) was that he had done anything terroristic. Yet.
    Things that aren't terrorism:

    - Trying to burn asylum hotel down
    - Blowing up ULEZ cameras with bombs
    - making bombs in a shed
    - radioactive stuff (dirty bomb?)

    Terrorism:

    - peacefully protesting the banning of a proscribed group
    Holding a sign which says "I support Palestine Action" is protesting the banning in a way. But it's also supporting the banned group. Would they be arrested if the sign said "Palestine Action should not have been banned"?
    Just consider the wider implications of that logic. Dystopian.

    (I concede that by the letter of the law it is, and that's mad)
    Someone should hold a sign up saying "I would support Palestine Action if it wasn't illegal"
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 6,929
    edited 5:28PM
    Deleted. Duplicate.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,367
    edited 5:24PM

    That’s all very well, but are the Melbourne stations bat friendly?

    Melbourne has enough bats as it is. They're fantastic, best thing about the city. A sultry evening cycle and the sky is dark with them.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,139
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    If we were starting a country from scratch, would we choose to have a monarchy? Of course not.

    But we're not.

    And there isn't a really good reason that I can see to actually get rid of the monarchy. Nor is there any settled view on what we should replace it with.

    So, I'm voting to keep it.

    I fundamentally believe that someone shouldn't be born into a position simply by having the right parents. Why is King Charles king? Because of his mother. In no other area of life do we expect this to be the case (although nepotism is strong in politics and the arts).
    Better have a word with farmers and family business owners or indeed as you allude to the likes of Geoge W Bush, Joe Kennedy III, Ben Gummer, Hilary Benn or Scott Eastwood or Roman Kemp or Liza Minelli all who got their posts or who were helped along the way by who their parents were
    Because it's not required under law. Because it doesn't let these families get out of obeying the laws the rest of us do.

    You may recall your meltdown on PB at the very thought that the Royal estates in Scotland might have to follow the same housing and environmental legislation as the rest of us. Just because of whom the [edit] last PoW had for mummy.
    So? They also get trained from an early age to do their job and profession, much as our monarchs do and largely very well. No royal is exempt from the law except the King but then so are serving French and US Presidents immune from prosecution.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/nov/21/monarchy
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,139
    edited 5:27PM

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pretty dispiriting for republicans that the most popular royal is up next in the hot seat. Charles III and all his baggage was probably their best hope for any traction and still can't get any momentum.

    ...Personally though I think the King is doing a fine job, the most intellectual and well read monarch we have had for centuries, a compassionate man and even if not as charismatic as his son or as tough as his mother was deserves to see out his reign for another decade or so before retiring to Highgrove and his plants with Camilla. Certainly better our King than President Starmer or Farage
    I agree but I think he, like his mother, will die in the saddle. My concern is that that time will come too soon.

    I think he will get to 85 and then abdicated in favour of his son. If he really had pancreatic cancer he would likely be dead by now
    I think it's a huge mistake for monarchists to support abdication/retirement for monarchs.

    As soon as you get into that game, you make it a matter of choice whether the monarch stays or goes, and it's the thin end of the wedge. You get political debates about whether and when an individual should call it a day, and lose the central advantage that it's all a lottery and separate from politics.

    I'm not a monarchist myself, just saying they lose their trump card with talk of abdication.
    Not really, even Popes and US Presidents can now retire by mid 80s.

    I wouldn't advocate abdication for any monarch before that age though
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 6,929
    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    Britain's newest rail station: Beaulieu Park, near Chelmsford, opened Sunday. I took this pic yesterday:

    image

    A fairly substantial enterprise, with three 12-car platforms, almost full-length canopies, two footbridges, two lifts, food outlets (upcoming), a bus station, two sets of loos, and a large car park, which seemed well-used.

    Full suite of pictures here:
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search=Sunil060902+Beaulieu+Park&title=Special:MediaSearch&type=image

    Competing with ScotRail for ugly new stations. Check out the new ones in Melbourne and cry.
    Indeed: https://bigbuild.vic.gov.au/use-metro-tunnel/stations
    But are the Melbourne stations bat friendly?
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,505
    edited 5:31PM
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pretty dispiriting for republicans that the most popular royal is up next in the hot seat. Charles III and all his baggage was probably their best hope for any traction and still can't get any momentum.

    ...Personally though I think the King is doing a fine job, the most intellectual and well read monarch we have had for centuries, a compassionate man and even if not as charismatic as his son or as tough as his mother was deserves to see out his reign for another decade or so before retiring to Highgrove and his plants with Camilla. Certainly better our King than President Starmer or Farage
    I agree but I think he, like his mother, will die in the saddle. My concern is that that time will come too soon.

    I think he will get to 85 and then abdicated in favour of his son. If he really had pancreatic cancer he would likely be dead by now
    I think it's a huge mistake for monarchists to support abdication/retirement for monarchs.

    As soon as you get into that game, you make it a matter of choice whether the monarch stays or goes, and it's the thin end of the wedge. You get political debates about whether and when an individual should call it a day, and lose the central advantage that it's all a lottery and separate from politics.

    I'm not a monarchist myself, just saying they lose their trump card with talk of abdication.
    Not really, even Popes and US Presidents can now retire by mid 80s.

    I wouldn't advocate abdication for any monarch before that age though
    Presidents and Popes are both elected, so conceding the principle that who does the job is ultimately a choice isn't really a problem. They are political jobs, and who does them is a political choice. Conceding the point for monarchs, who have their place in the order of succession by chance, is a problem - if you say it's ultimately a choice, you're conceding a huge point.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,974
    Andy_JS said:

    Only 154 MPs vote in favour of the ECHR? Not much of a vote of confidence.

    "MPs vote down Farage's proposal for UK to leave ECHR
    The result is in. Nigel Farage was defeated by 154 votes to 96, a majority of 58."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/oct/29/shabana-mahmood-home-office-immigration-pmqs-labour-keir-starmer-kemi-badenoch-conservatives-uk-politics-live-news

    Seriously? That’s what you took from this?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,811
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pretty dispiriting for republicans that the most popular royal is up next in the hot seat. Charles III and all his baggage was probably their best hope for any traction and still can't get any momentum.

    ...Personally though I think the King is doing a fine job, the most intellectual and well read monarch we have had for centuries, a compassionate man and even if not as charismatic as his son or as tough as his mother was deserves to see out his reign for another decade or so before retiring to Highgrove and his plants with Camilla. Certainly better our King than President Starmer or Farage
    I agree but I think he, like his mother, will die in the saddle. My concern is that that time will come too soon.

    I think he will get to 85 and then abdicated in favour of his son. If he really had pancreatic cancer he would likely be dead by now
    I think it's a huge mistake for monarchists to support abdication/retirement for monarchs.

    As soon as you get into that game, you make it a matter of choice whether the monarch stays or goes, and it's the thin end of the wedge. You get political debates about whether and when an individual should call it a day, and lose the central advantage that it's all a lottery and separate from politics.

    I'm not a monarchist myself, just saying they lose their trump card with talk of abdication.
    Not really, even Popes and US Presidents can now retire by mid 80s.

    I wouldn't advocate abdication for any monarch before that age though
    If a monarch became unable to function for health reasons (eg dementia) abdication would have to be considered surely?
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,312
    edited 5:31PM
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pretty dispiriting for republicans that the most popular royal is up next in the hot seat. Charles III and all his baggage was probably their best hope for any traction and still can't get any momentum.

    ...Personally though I think the King is doing a fine job, the most intellectual and well read monarch we have had for centuries, a compassionate man and even if not as charismatic as his son or as tough as his mother was deserves to see out his reign for another decade or so before retiring to Highgrove and his plants with Camilla. Certainly better our King than President Starmer or Farage
    I agree but I think he, like his mother, will die in the saddle. My concern is that that time will come too soon.

    I think he will get to 85 and then abdicated in favour of his son. If he really had pancreatic cancer he would likely be dead by now
    I think it's a huge mistake for monarchists to support abdication/retirement for monarchs.

    As soon as you get into that game, you make it a matter of choice whether the monarch stays or goes, and it's the thin end of the wedge. You get political debates about whether and when an individual should call it a day, and lose the central advantage that it's all a lottery and separate from politics.

    I'm not a monarchist myself, just saying they lose their trump card with talk of abdication.
    Not really, even Popes and US Presidents can now retire by mid 80s.

    I wouldn't advocate abdication for any monarch before that age though
    Nah, if you’re going to do it, do it the old fashioned way. No question of if/when they go then, let the grim reaper decide. I think part of the reason the previous Pope clung on was because he realised the abdication of Benedict raised more questions than it solved.

    You can always have a regency if they’re not well enough to do the hand shaking/parliament opening etc stuff
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,974
    HYUFD said:

    Let's have a ballot for next Head of State. Two options:

    William Windsor
    Reopen Nominations

    I'm voting for Ron.

    No, monarchs shouldn't be elected, the whole point of constitutional monarchs is they are not politicians just ceremonial heads of state
    Worked fine for the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,139
    edited 5:38PM

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pretty dispiriting for republicans that the most popular royal is up next in the hot seat. Charles III and all his baggage was probably their best hope for any traction and still can't get any momentum.

    ...Personally though I think the King is doing a fine job, the most intellectual and well read monarch we have had for centuries, a compassionate man and even if not as charismatic as his son or as tough as his mother was deserves to see out his reign for another decade or so before retiring to Highgrove and his plants with Camilla. Certainly better our King than President Starmer or Farage
    I agree but I think he, like his mother, will die in the saddle. My concern is that that time will come too soon.

    I think he will get to 85 and then abdicated in favour of his son. If he really had pancreatic cancer he would likely be dead by now
    I think it's a huge mistake for monarchists to support abdication/retirement for monarchs.

    As soon as you get into that game, you make it a matter of choice whether the monarch stays or goes, and it's the thin end of the wedge. You get political debates about whether and when an individual should call it a day, and lose the central advantage that it's all a lottery and separate from politics.

    I'm not a monarchist myself, just saying they lose their trump card with talk of abdication.
    Not really, even Popes and US Presidents can now retire by mid 80s.

    I wouldn't advocate abdication for any monarch before that age though
    Nah, if you’re going to do it, do it the old fashioned way. No question of if/when they go then, let the grim reaper decide. I think part of the reason the previous Pope clung on was because he realised the abdication of Benedict raised more questions than it solved.

    You can always have a regency if they’re not well enough to do the hand shaking/parliament opening etc stuff
    The Emperor of Japan, the Queens of Denmark and the Netherlands and King of Spain have also abdicated before their 90th birthday and it has worked OK.

    There is no point being a head of state or Pope even passed the average life expectancy, especially if you have a younger and more dynamic heir or successor by that age ready to go
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,505
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pretty dispiriting for republicans that the most popular royal is up next in the hot seat. Charles III and all his baggage was probably their best hope for any traction and still can't get any momentum.

    ...Personally though I think the King is doing a fine job, the most intellectual and well read monarch we have had for centuries, a compassionate man and even if not as charismatic as his son or as tough as his mother was deserves to see out his reign for another decade or so before retiring to Highgrove and his plants with Camilla. Certainly better our King than President Starmer or Farage
    I agree but I think he, like his mother, will die in the saddle. My concern is that that time will come too soon.

    I think he will get to 85 and then abdicated in favour of his son. If he really had pancreatic cancer he would likely be dead by now
    I think it's a huge mistake for monarchists to support abdication/retirement for monarchs.

    As soon as you get into that game, you make it a matter of choice whether the monarch stays or goes, and it's the thin end of the wedge. You get political debates about whether and when an individual should call it a day, and lose the central advantage that it's all a lottery and separate from politics.

    I'm not a monarchist myself, just saying they lose their trump card with talk of abdication.
    Not really, even Popes and US Presidents can now retire by mid 80s.

    I wouldn't advocate abdication for any monarch before that age though
    If a monarch became unable to function for health reasons (eg dementia) abdication would have to be considered surely?
    George III never abdicated. You have a regency or counsellors of state acting on the monarch's behalf - it's not been uncommon.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,811
    CatMan said:

    Eabhal said:

    carnforth said:

    Eabhal said:

    What happens if you are caught making explosives... but you're white, so you can't be a terrorist! You get headlines like...

    ITV: "Science 'nerd' guilty of making explosives in mum's garden"

    Sky: "Self-styled 'science nerd' convicted after homemade explosives found in garden shed"

    BBC: "'Nerdy' Caddington man made explosive devices in shed - court"

    Police found radioactive substances, ammunition, poison and recreational drugs as well. The guy had a previous conviction for actual bodily harm, and, to quote Sky, "After his arrest, police uncovered a stream of racist chat on WhatsApp in which Whittaker vented hate towards a Luton mosque."

    I'd like to thank the British police for preventing this wannabee terrorist from attempting to kill British Muslims.

    As a member of the science nerd community I am outraged that the News Media should pin this on nerdism, rather than racist shithousery.

    What happens if you are caught making explosives... but you're white, so you can't be a terrorist! You get headlines like...

    ITV: "Science 'nerd' guilty of making explosives in mum's garden"

    Sky: "Self-styled 'science nerd' convicted after homemade explosives found in garden shed"

    BBC: "'Nerdy' Caddington man made explosive devices in shed - court"

    Police found radioactive substances, ammunition, poison and recreational drugs as well. The guy had a previous conviction for actual bodily harm, and, to quote Sky, "After his arrest, police uncovered a stream of racist chat on WhatsApp in which Whittaker vented hate towards a Luton mosque."

    If you read the story, he was found with explosives, charged and convicted of that.

    He *claimed* to be a science nerd.

    In justification of charging him, and to push back against the “harmless nerd” narrative, the police produced evidence of racist messaging.

    The reason he wasn’t described as a terrorist (or charged as such) was that he had done anything terroristic. Yet.
    Things that aren't terrorism:

    - Trying to burn asylum hotel down
    - Blowing up ULEZ cameras with bombs
    - making bombs in a shed
    - radioactive stuff (dirty bomb?)

    Terrorism:

    - peacefully protesting the banning of a proscribed group
    Holding a sign which says "I support Palestine Action" is protesting the banning in a way. But it's also supporting the banned group. Would they be arrested if the sign said "Palestine Action should not have been banned"?
    Just consider the wider implications of that logic. Dystopian.

    (I concede that by the letter of the law it is, and that's mad)
    Someone should hold a sign up saying "I would support Palestine Action if it wasn't illegal"
    Or "I oppose the proscription of Palestine Action whilst making no comment on whether I support the group itself because that might be considered illegal!"

    Just need a big sign and small writing.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,139
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pretty dispiriting for republicans that the most popular royal is up next in the hot seat. Charles III and all his baggage was probably their best hope for any traction and still can't get any momentum.

    ...Personally though I think the King is doing a fine job, the most intellectual and well read monarch we have had for centuries, a compassionate man and even if not as charismatic as his son or as tough as his mother was deserves to see out his reign for another decade or so before retiring to Highgrove and his plants with Camilla. Certainly better our King than President Starmer or Farage
    I agree but I think he, like his mother, will die in the saddle. My concern is that that time will come too soon.

    I think he will get to 85 and then abdicated in favour of his son. If he really had pancreatic cancer he would likely be dead by now
    I think it's a huge mistake for monarchists to support abdication/retirement for monarchs.

    As soon as you get into that game, you make it a matter of choice whether the monarch stays or goes, and it's the thin end of the wedge. You get political debates about whether and when an individual should call it a day, and lose the central advantage that it's all a lottery and separate from politics.

    I'm not a monarchist myself, just saying they lose their trump card with talk of abdication.
    Not really, even Popes and US Presidents can now retire by mid 80s.

    I wouldn't advocate abdication for any monarch before that age though
    If a monarch became unable to function for health reasons (eg dementia) abdication would have to be considered surely?
    In that case too
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,837
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Let's have a ballot for next Head of State. Two options:

    William Windsor
    Reopen Nominations

    I'm voting for Ron.

    No, monarchs shouldn't be elected, the whole point of constitutional monarchs is they are not politicians just ceremonial heads of state
    Worked fine for the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth
    That's a cautionary tale against an elective monarchy.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,398
    CatMan said:

    Eabhal said:

    carnforth said:

    Eabhal said:

    What happens if you are caught making explosives... but you're white, so you can't be a terrorist! You get headlines like...

    ITV: "Science 'nerd' guilty of making explosives in mum's garden"

    Sky: "Self-styled 'science nerd' convicted after homemade explosives found in garden shed"

    BBC: "'Nerdy' Caddington man made explosive devices in shed - court"

    Police found radioactive substances, ammunition, poison and recreational drugs as well. The guy had a previous conviction for actual bodily harm, and, to quote Sky, "After his arrest, police uncovered a stream of racist chat on WhatsApp in which Whittaker vented hate towards a Luton mosque."

    I'd like to thank the British police for preventing this wannabee terrorist from attempting to kill British Muslims.

    As a member of the science nerd community I am outraged that the News Media should pin this on nerdism, rather than racist shithousery.

    What happens if you are caught making explosives... but you're white, so you can't be a terrorist! You get headlines like...

    ITV: "Science 'nerd' guilty of making explosives in mum's garden"

    Sky: "Self-styled 'science nerd' convicted after homemade explosives found in garden shed"

    BBC: "'Nerdy' Caddington man made explosive devices in shed - court"

    Police found radioactive substances, ammunition, poison and recreational drugs as well. The guy had a previous conviction for actual bodily harm, and, to quote Sky, "After his arrest, police uncovered a stream of racist chat on WhatsApp in which Whittaker vented hate towards a Luton mosque."

    If you read the story, he was found with explosives, charged and convicted of that.

    He *claimed* to be a science nerd.

    In justification of charging him, and to push back against the “harmless nerd” narrative, the police produced evidence of racist messaging.

    The reason he wasn’t described as a terrorist (or charged as such) was that he had done anything terroristic. Yet.
    Things that aren't terrorism:

    - Trying to burn asylum hotel down
    - Blowing up ULEZ cameras with bombs
    - making bombs in a shed
    - radioactive stuff (dirty bomb?)

    Terrorism:

    - peacefully protesting the banning of a proscribed group
    Holding a sign which says "I support Palestine Action" is protesting the banning in a way. But it's also supporting the banned group. Would they be arrested if the sign said "Palestine Action should not have been banned"?
    Just consider the wider implications of that logic. Dystopian.

    (I concede that by the letter of the law it is, and that's mad)
    Someone should hold a sign up saying "I would support Palestine Action if it wasn't illegal"
    That's like the interview with the boss:

    Employee: what would you do if I said you were an idiot
    Boss: I'd sack you.
    Employee: what would you do if I thought something about you
    Boss: I couldn't do anything if you were thinking it
    Employee: okay, I think you're an idiot.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,139
    edited 5:37PM

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pretty dispiriting for republicans that the most popular royal is up next in the hot seat. Charles III and all his baggage was probably their best hope for any traction and still can't get any momentum.

    ...Personally though I think the King is doing a fine job, the most intellectual and well read monarch we have had for centuries, a compassionate man and even if not as charismatic as his son or as tough as his mother was deserves to see out his reign for another decade or so before retiring to Highgrove and his plants with Camilla. Certainly better our King than President Starmer or Farage
    I agree but I think he, like his mother, will die in the saddle. My concern is that that time will come too soon.

    I think he will get to 85 and then abdicated in favour of his son. If he really had pancreatic cancer he would likely be dead by now
    I think it's a huge mistake for monarchists to support abdication/retirement for monarchs.

    As soon as you get into that game, you make it a matter of choice whether the monarch stays or goes, and it's the thin end of the wedge. You get political debates about whether and when an individual should call it a day, and lose the central advantage that it's all a lottery and separate from politics.

    I'm not a monarchist myself, just saying they lose their trump card with talk of abdication.
    Not really, even Popes and US Presidents can now retire by mid 80s.

    I wouldn't advocate abdication for any monarch before that age though
    Presidents and Popes are both elected, so conceding the principle that who does the job is ultimately a choice isn't really a problem. They are political jobs, and who does them is a political choice. Conceding the point for monarchs, who have their place in the order of succession by chance, is a problem - if you say it's ultimately a choice, you're conceding a huge point.
    Popes aren't elected by the people or even all Roman Catholics but a small college of cardinals.

    Even US Presidents are elected by an electoral college of electors from each state, not directly by the people either.

    It is also nothing to do with choice either, the next in line of succession still becomes monarch, just they have a retirement age of 85
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,794
    FPT (again, sorry, I'm in Spain skydiving and the weather improved so I stopped looking at PB :smile: ) @Casino_Royale:

    @maxh to answer your question, I see Corbyn as directly threatening the economic and physical security of my family.

    If Corbyn were elected PM I'd expect him to attack my income, and come after my assets. I'd also expect him to ignore the advice of the security services where it didn't accord to his pre-existing beliefs, and even defund them, as well as the military and police, leaving us vulnerable to state action by Russia/China and organised terrorist acts. In time, I think he'd also try and qualify or put restrictions on the democratic process too.

    If Trump were elected PM I think would favour himself and the business interests of his family, he would try and cut across due process, he would second guess judges, he'd raise tariffs, he'd corrode public standards of behaviours, and he'd damage a lot of relationships, but he wouldn't attack people's income and assets and, after a lot of bluster, and no doubt sacking some people he didn't like, he would by and large act on security advice.

    I don't think it's a difficult choice. Thankfully, we are not faced with it.

    There are no circumstances in which I would ever vote for Jeremy Corbyn.

    Thanks, I appreciate the reply. It makes sense to me; I disagree (I would, wouldn't I) but appreciate your reasoning.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,399
    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    Britain's newest rail station: Beaulieu Park, near Chelmsford, opened Sunday. I took this pic yesterday:

    image

    A fairly substantial enterprise, with three 12-car platforms, almost full-length canopies, two footbridges, two lifts, food outlets (upcoming), a bus station, two sets of loos, and a large car park, which seemed well-used.

    Full suite of pictures here:
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search=Sunil060902+Beaulieu+Park&title=Special:MediaSearch&type=image

    Competing with ScotRail for ugly new stations. Check out the new ones in Melbourne and cry.
    Indeed: https://bigbuild.vic.gov.au/use-metro-tunnel/stations
    But you hate trains anyway, young viewcode!
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,505
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pretty dispiriting for republicans that the most popular royal is up next in the hot seat. Charles III and all his baggage was probably their best hope for any traction and still can't get any momentum.

    ...Personally though I think the King is doing a fine job, the most intellectual and well read monarch we have had for centuries, a compassionate man and even if not as charismatic as his son or as tough as his mother was deserves to see out his reign for another decade or so before retiring to Highgrove and his plants with Camilla. Certainly better our King than President Starmer or Farage
    I agree but I think he, like his mother, will die in the saddle. My concern is that that time will come too soon.

    I think he will get to 85 and then abdicated in favour of his son. If he really had pancreatic cancer he would likely be dead by now
    I think it's a huge mistake for monarchists to support abdication/retirement for monarchs.

    As soon as you get into that game, you make it a matter of choice whether the monarch stays or goes, and it's the thin end of the wedge. You get political debates about whether and when an individual should call it a day, and lose the central advantage that it's all a lottery and separate from politics.

    I'm not a monarchist myself, just saying they lose their trump card with talk of abdication.
    Not really, even Popes and US Presidents can now retire by mid 80s.

    I wouldn't advocate abdication for any monarch before that age though
    Presidents and Popes are both elected, so conceding the principle that who does the job is ultimately a choice isn't really a problem. They are political jobs, and who does them is a political choice. Conceding the point for monarchs, who have their place in the order of succession by chance, is a problem - if you say it's ultimately a choice, you're conceding a huge point.
    Popes aren't elected by the people or even all Roman Catholics but a small college of cardinals.

    Even US Presidents are elected by an electoral college of electors from each state, not directly by the people either.

    It is also nothing to do with choice either, the next in line of succession still becomes monarch, just they have a retirement age of 85
    I know how Popes and Presidents are elected, HYUFD - I'm not a simpleton!

    The point is that they ARE elected - they are a political choice that is made.

    The central argument for a monarchy (and, as I say, I'm not a monarchist) is that they are there by accident of birth, freeing us from the need to make any political choice at all. As soon as you dangle abdication out there, you weaken that because the political debate starts over whether and when it happens. That doesn't destroy the institution overnight, clearly, but it weakens it by undermining a central argument for its existence.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,811

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pretty dispiriting for republicans that the most popular royal is up next in the hot seat. Charles III and all his baggage was probably their best hope for any traction and still can't get any momentum.

    ...Personally though I think the King is doing a fine job, the most intellectual and well read monarch we have had for centuries, a compassionate man and even if not as charismatic as his son or as tough as his mother was deserves to see out his reign for another decade or so before retiring to Highgrove and his plants with Camilla. Certainly better our King than President Starmer or Farage
    I agree but I think he, like his mother, will die in the saddle. My concern is that that time will come too soon.

    I think he will get to 85 and then abdicated in favour of his son. If he really had pancreatic cancer he would likely be dead by now
    I think it's a huge mistake for monarchists to support abdication/retirement for monarchs.

    As soon as you get into that game, you make it a matter of choice whether the monarch stays or goes, and it's the thin end of the wedge. You get political debates about whether and when an individual should call it a day, and lose the central advantage that it's all a lottery and separate from politics.

    I'm not a monarchist myself, just saying they lose their trump card with talk of abdication.
    Not really, even Popes and US Presidents can now retire by mid 80s.

    I wouldn't advocate abdication for any monarch before that age though
    If a monarch became unable to function for health reasons (eg dementia) abdication would have to be considered surely?
    George III never abdicated. You have a regency or counsellors of state acting on the monarch's behalf - it's not been uncommon.
    But would that wash these days? A monarch who is never seen? It sounds a bit, well yes, Regency.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,523
    Foss said:

    viewcode said:

    Foss said:

    StaLLMer redefining renewal

    Renewal means handing power back to people with skin in the game - people who know what their communities need most.

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1983574128578769407

    What does that actually mean? Scratch one-man-one-vote and just have community leaders at the head of mobs? Local referenda that can vote for things that'll upset the Guardian? Some kind of libertarian paradise? What?!?
    Government by fortune cookie.
    Sod that. I want government via 'truth or dare'.
    I want government via 'Cards Against Humanity.'
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,794
    Entirely self-indulgent, apologies. My photo quota of the day.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,418
    Every now and then I read an article in the Spectator that doesn't enrage me to apoplexy but instead fills me with a weary amazement that somebody wrote an article this bad and offered it to the editor, who then accepted it without laughing in his face and telling him to f**k off. I give you the latest in a lineage that includes Adrian Chiles and Quentin Letts, Gus Carter's toast related diatribe.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-tragedy-of-starmers-breakfast/

    Oh God, really?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,418
    edited 5:45PM

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    Britain's newest rail station: Beaulieu Park, near Chelmsford, opened Sunday. I took this pic yesterday:

    image

    A fairly substantial enterprise, with three 12-car platforms, almost full-length canopies, two footbridges, two lifts, food outlets (upcoming), a bus station, two sets of loos, and a large car park, which seemed well-used.

    Full suite of pictures here:
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search=Sunil060902+Beaulieu+Park&title=Special:MediaSearch&type=image

    Competing with ScotRail for ugly new stations. Check out the new ones in Melbourne and cry.
    Indeed: https://bigbuild.vic.gov.au/use-metro-tunnel/stations
    But you hate trains anyway, young viewcode!
    I'm multitasking :)
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,811
    edited 5:48PM
    maxh said:

    Entirely self-indulgent, apologies. My photo quota of the day.

    Wow. Which one is you?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,418
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Let's have a ballot for next Head of State. Two options:

    William Windsor
    Reopen Nominations

    I'm voting for Ron.

    No, monarchs shouldn't be elected, the whole point of constitutional monarchs is they are not politicians just ceremonial heads of state
    Worked fine for the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth
    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2023/01/29/the-intermarium/

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,418
    maxh said:

    Entirely self-indulgent, apologies. My photo quota of the day.

    Who was taking the picture?
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,794

    StaLLMer redefining renewal

    Renewal means handing power back to people with skin in the game - people who know what their communities need most.

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1983574128578769407

    Blanche we share very little politically, but you are doing a wonderful job of tearing Starmer apart by simply reposting the utter drivel of his twitter account. Chapeau.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,505
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pretty dispiriting for republicans that the most popular royal is up next in the hot seat. Charles III and all his baggage was probably their best hope for any traction and still can't get any momentum.

    ...Personally though I think the King is doing a fine job, the most intellectual and well read monarch we have had for centuries, a compassionate man and even if not as charismatic as his son or as tough as his mother was deserves to see out his reign for another decade or so before retiring to Highgrove and his plants with Camilla. Certainly better our King than President Starmer or Farage
    I agree but I think he, like his mother, will die in the saddle. My concern is that that time will come too soon.

    I think he will get to 85 and then abdicated in favour of his son. If he really had pancreatic cancer he would likely be dead by now
    I think it's a huge mistake for monarchists to support abdication/retirement for monarchs.

    As soon as you get into that game, you make it a matter of choice whether the monarch stays or goes, and it's the thin end of the wedge. You get political debates about whether and when an individual should call it a day, and lose the central advantage that it's all a lottery and separate from politics.

    I'm not a monarchist myself, just saying they lose their trump card with talk of abdication.
    Not really, even Popes and US Presidents can now retire by mid 80s.

    I wouldn't advocate abdication for any monarch before that age though
    If a monarch became unable to function for health reasons (eg dementia) abdication would have to be considered surely?
    George III never abdicated. You have a regency or counsellors of state acting on the monarch's behalf - it's not been uncommon.
    But would that wash these days? A monarch who is never seen? It sounds a bit, well yes, Regency.
    Why not? When Charles III was temporarily ill, his functions were formally carried out by Camilla, William, Anne and Edward as Counsellors of State under Letters Patent. If he was more permanently incapacitated then the Regent would be William under a similar mechanism (essentially he'd be King in all but name, which is what will happen when his father dies anyway).
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 6,893
    maxh said:

    Entirely self-indulgent, apologies. My photo quota of the day.

    Could do with a dog for scale
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,794
    edited 5:50PM
    kinabalu said:

    maxh said:

    Entirely self-indulgent, apologies. My photo quota of the day.

    Wow. Which one is you?
    Green helmet. Viewcode: Pic was taken by our coach, who was also in the door (it's a very wide-angle camera). You can just see her arm with the black band on it in the bottom left of the picture.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,794

    Foss said:

    viewcode said:

    Foss said:

    StaLLMer redefining renewal

    Renewal means handing power back to people with skin in the game - people who know what their communities need most.

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1983574128578769407

    What does that actually mean? Scratch one-man-one-vote and just have community leaders at the head of mobs? Local referenda that can vote for things that'll upset the Guardian? Some kind of libertarian paradise? What?!?
    Government by fortune cookie.
    Sod that. I want government via 'truth or dare'.
    I want government via 'Cards Against Humanity.'
    I thought Boris Johnson was a card against humanity.
    If this doesn't get 10 likes I'm leaving PB.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,299
    viewcode said:

    Every now and then I read an article in the Spectator that doesn't enrage me to apoplexy but instead fills me with a weary amazement that somebody wrote an article this bad and offered it to the editor, who then accepted it without laughing in his face and telling him to f**k off. I give you the latest in a lineage that includes Adrian Chiles and Quentin Letts, Gus Carter's toast related diatribe.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-tragedy-of-starmers-breakfast/

    Oh God, really?

    You might enjoy the book by Sarah Vine 'How not to be a Political wife'. It fills in several gaps in our knowledge of her ex husband and his poor judgement. She being a prime example
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,312
    viewcode said:

    Every now and then I read an article in the Spectator that doesn't enrage me to apoplexy but instead fills me with a weary amazement that somebody wrote an article this bad and offered it to the editor, who then accepted it without laughing in his face and telling him to f**k off. I give you the latest in a lineage that includes Adrian Chiles and Quentin Letts, Gus Carter's toast related diatribe.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-tragedy-of-starmers-breakfast/

    Oh God, really?

    It appears to be mandatory when PMs get to the point of serious unpopularity (or even before) when their opponents get Derangement Syndrome and cast around for pretty much anything they can criticise them for, no matter how petty or minor.

    Starmer is not an easy man to like right now, and he does have a dizzying talent to grate quite significantly on one’s nerves - a certain je ne sais quoi in the annoyance stakes - but calling him out for a toaster is taking it a bit far.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,177
    viewcode said:

    maxh said:

    Entirely self-indulgent, apologies. My photo quota of the day.

    Who was taking the picture?
    The dog.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,139

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pretty dispiriting for republicans that the most popular royal is up next in the hot seat. Charles III and all his baggage was probably their best hope for any traction and still can't get any momentum.

    ...Personally though I think the King is doing a fine job, the most intellectual and well read monarch we have had for centuries, a compassionate man and even if not as charismatic as his son or as tough as his mother was deserves to see out his reign for another decade or so before retiring to Highgrove and his plants with Camilla. Certainly better our King than President Starmer or Farage
    I agree but I think he, like his mother, will die in the saddle. My concern is that that time will come too soon.

    I think he will get to 85 and then abdicated in favour of his son. If he really had pancreatic cancer he would likely be dead by now
    I think it's a huge mistake for monarchists to support abdication/retirement for monarchs.

    As soon as you get into that game, you make it a matter of choice whether the monarch stays or goes, and it's the thin end of the wedge. You get political debates about whether and when an individual should call it a day, and lose the central advantage that it's all a lottery and separate from politics.

    I'm not a monarchist myself, just saying they lose their trump card with talk of abdication.
    Not really, even Popes and US Presidents can now retire by mid 80s.

    I wouldn't advocate abdication for any monarch before that age though
    Presidents and Popes are both elected, so conceding the principle that who does the job is ultimately a choice isn't really a problem. They are political jobs, and who does them is a political choice. Conceding the point for monarchs, who have their place in the order of succession by chance, is a problem - if you say it's ultimately a choice, you're conceding a huge point.
    Popes aren't elected by the people or even all Roman Catholics but a small college of cardinals.

    Even US Presidents are elected by an electoral college of electors from each state, not directly by the people either.

    It is also nothing to do with choice either, the next in line of succession still becomes monarch, just they have a retirement age of 85
    I know how Popes and Presidents are elected, HYUFD - I'm not a simpleton!

    The point is that they ARE elected - they are a political choice that is made.

    The central argument for a monarchy (and, as I say, I'm not a monarchist) is that they are there by accident of birth, freeing us from the need to make any political choice at all. As soon as you dangle abdication out there, you weaken that because the political debate starts over whether and when it happens. That doesn't destroy the institution overnight, clearly, but it weakens it by undermining a central argument for its existence.
    Yes and the monarch still gets the role by accident of birth, no monarch in UK or English history that I am aware of got the job after 85.

    Given a retirement age of 85 for monarchs could be set in law there would be no debate over whether or when it happened either
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,418
    maxh said:

    kinabalu said:

    maxh said:

    Entirely self-indulgent, apologies. My photo quota of the day.

    Wow. Which one is you?
    Green helmet. Viewcode: Pic was taken by our coach, who was also in the door (it's a very wide-angle camera). You can just see her arm with the black band on it in the bottom left of the picture.
    Thank you
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,534
    Heathrow, NatWest and Minecraft sites down amid global Microsoft outage
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3rj45n4x5eo

    Cloud computing – what could go wrong?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,177

    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    Britain's newest rail station: Beaulieu Park, near Chelmsford, opened Sunday. I took this pic yesterday:

    image

    A fairly substantial enterprise, with three 12-car platforms, almost full-length canopies, two footbridges, two lifts, food outlets (upcoming), a bus station, two sets of loos, and a large car park, which seemed well-used.

    Full suite of pictures here:
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search=Sunil060902+Beaulieu+Park&title=Special:MediaSearch&type=image

    Competing with ScotRail for ugly new stations. Check out the new ones in Melbourne and cry.
    Indeed: https://bigbuild.vic.gov.au/use-metro-tunnel/stations
    But are the Melbourne stations bat friendly?
    I bloody well hope not. Have you seen the ****ing bats they have there? Compared to pipistrelles they're like Antonov 225s versus EE Wrens.

    It was dangerous enough walking under their roost at Sydney Botanic Gardens even avoiding those particular paths as much as possible.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,794
    edited 6:02PM
    Cyclefree said:


    "Speak to any 14 year old girl, or woman who remembers being 14. Such creepy behaviour by older men is very common."

    @Foxy on a previous thread.

    Yes - as someone who endured this and worse at 14 and on numerous occasions since then it is creepy and criminal and very common.

    And it is very common because men like you, I'm sorry to say, do not take it seriously, underplay it because it has happened "since time immemorial" (your words) so girls should just put up with it and it is far too much expense and bother to build the facilities to lock up the men who make women and girls' life a misery with this sort of behaviour.

    What is needed instead is for us to clamp down hard on men who do this, the first time they do it to send a very clear message that this is intolerable and will not be tolerated. Instead of expecting women to endure it, letting such men carry on with their repellent behaviour for years then being all shocked when they carry out some appalling crime and we learn of all the previous occasions when we turned a blind eye or were far too lenient because .... Well why? Because men can never be expected to behave or accept the consequences of their actions, apparently.

    Women are so fucking fed up and furious at being thought of as second class citizens whose interests don't matter, whose rights to basic decency must always come second to those of men. Every single fucking day in this country we see example after example of this contempt for women and girls, even from professionals such as @ Foxy who might be expected to know better.

    @Cyclefree thank you. This needed posting.

    I think someone else put it very well (@Malmesbury?) when they posited that @Foxy's stance is in reaction to the apparent highlighting of a particular case of a man behaving as a sexual predator, because that man happened to come over on a small boat.

    I have sympathy with this reaction, but it is nevertheless a mistake to excuse a particular case; we should be highlighting every case and, as you say, clamping down until it is no longer a thing.

    A question, not so much for you @Cyclefree as I know and respect the strength of your views on this, but perhaps for others: if we are to take the stance that @Cyclefree advocates for (and I agree with) against sexual violence, why should we not take a similar stance against transphobia, anti-immigrant sentiment, ethno-nationalism and the like? In every case, there is a human on the other end of abuse who deserves our protection. Surely, we are either striving for equality for all or none?
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,850

    Andy_JS said:

    Only 154 MPs vote in favour of the ECHR? Not much of a vote of confidence.

    "MPs vote down Farage's proposal for UK to leave ECHR
    The result is in. Nigel Farage was defeated by 154 votes to 96, a majority of 58."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/oct/29/shabana-mahmood-home-office-immigration-pmqs-labour-keir-starmer-kemi-badenoch-conservatives-uk-politics-live-news

    Or the government knew they'd win, so why bother getting everyone in to vote?
    Some more on the story;

    The vote by 63 Labour MPs against Nigel Farage’s ten-minute rule bill on the UK leaving the European convention on human rights – without which the Commons would have backed the bill – happened because a few Labour backbenchers warned whips and the party hierarchy that they had to act.

    While 10-minute rule bills have no chance of becoming law without subsequent government backing, MPs including Stella Creasy warned that allowing Farage’s bill to be passed would send a terrible signal to European neighbours, who would not necessarily understand the purely symbolic impact of the vote.

    The initial instruction to Labour MPs was to not vote. After a pushback, this was amended to say that while frontbenchers should do this, those on the backbenches could vote if they wanted.

    “To let such a bill pass at a time of sensitivity in negotiations over our European deal would be taken badly,” Creasy said.


    And the party splits;
    The 95 MPs voting for Farage’s proposal to leave the ECHR came from:
    The Conservatives: 87
    Reform UK: 3
    DUP: 2
    Independents: 2 (Rupert Lowe and Patrick Spencer)
    TUV: 1

    And the 155 MPs voting against came from:
    Lib Dems: 64
    Labour: 63
    Independents: 10
    SNP: 7
    Plaid Cymru: 4
    Green party: 4
    Alliance: 1
    SDLP: 1
    UUP: 1


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/oct/29/shabana-mahmood-home-office-immigration-pmqs-labour-keir-starmer-kemi-badenoch-conservatives-uk-politics-live-news

    That's a higher percentage of Conservatives than Reformers, isn't it?
    Why do we need a Convention on Human Rights? We all know how to treat our fellow human beings, don't we?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,399
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pretty dispiriting for republicans that the most popular royal is up next in the hot seat. Charles III and all his baggage was probably their best hope for any traction and still can't get any momentum.

    ...Personally though I think the King is doing a fine job, the most intellectual and well read monarch we have had for centuries, a compassionate man and even if not as charismatic as his son or as tough as his mother was deserves to see out his reign for another decade or so before retiring to Highgrove and his plants with Camilla. Certainly better our King than President Starmer or Farage
    I agree but I think he, like his mother, will die in the saddle. My concern is that that time will come too soon.

    I think he will get to 85 and then abdicated in favour of his son. If he really had pancreatic cancer he would likely be dead by now
    I think it's a huge mistake for monarchists to support abdication/retirement for monarchs.

    As soon as you get into that game, you make it a matter of choice whether the monarch stays or goes, and it's the thin end of the wedge. You get political debates about whether and when an individual should call it a day, and lose the central advantage that it's all a lottery and separate from politics.

    I'm not a monarchist myself, just saying they lose their trump card with talk of abdication.
    Not really, even Popes and US Presidents can now retire by mid 80s.

    I wouldn't advocate abdication for any monarch before that age though
    Presidents and Popes are both elected, so conceding the principle that who does the job is ultimately a choice isn't really a problem. They are political jobs, and who does them is a political choice. Conceding the point for monarchs, who have their place in the order of succession by chance, is a problem - if you say it's ultimately a choice, you're conceding a huge point.
    Popes aren't elected by the people or even all Roman Catholics but a small college of cardinals.

    Even US Presidents are elected by an electoral college of electors from each state, not directly by the people either.

    It is also nothing to do with choice either, the next in line of succession still becomes monarch, just they have a retirement age of 85
    MONARCHY = SOCIALISM!
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,299
    Sir John Curtice on Radio 4 saying that Labour are losing more of their votes to Parties to their left than to their right.

    How could it be otherwise?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,177
    maxh said:

    kinabalu said:

    maxh said:

    Entirely self-indulgent, apologies. My photo quota of the day.

    Wow. Which one is you?
    Green helmet. Viewcode: Pic was taken by our coach, who was also in the door (it's a very wide-angle camera). You can just see her arm with the black band on it in the bottom left of the picture.
    BTW what plane was it please? Obviously specially adapted anyway with the commuter monkey-hanger bars.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,811
    viewcode said:

    Every now and then I read an article in the Spectator that doesn't enrage me to apoplexy but instead fills me with a weary amazement that somebody wrote an article this bad and offered it to the editor, who then accepted it without laughing in his face and telling him to f**k off. I give you the latest in a lineage that includes Adrian Chiles and Quentin Letts, Gus Carter's toast related diatribe.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-tragedy-of-starmers-breakfast/

    Oh God, really?

    Very speccie though. It's how I imagine them talking when they get together for a chuckle and exchange of colourful opinions.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,976
    Battlebus said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Only 154 MPs vote in favour of the ECHR? Not much of a vote of confidence.

    "MPs vote down Farage's proposal for UK to leave ECHR
    The result is in. Nigel Farage was defeated by 154 votes to 96, a majority of 58."

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/oct/29/shabana-mahmood-home-office-immigration-pmqs-labour-keir-starmer-kemi-badenoch-conservatives-uk-politics-live-news

    Or the government knew they'd win, so why bother getting everyone in to vote?
    Some more on the story;

    The vote by 63 Labour MPs against Nigel Farage’s ten-minute rule bill on the UK leaving the European convention on human rights – without which the Commons would have backed the bill – happened because a few Labour backbenchers warned whips and the party hierarchy that they had to act.

    While 10-minute rule bills have no chance of becoming law without subsequent government backing, MPs including Stella Creasy warned that allowing Farage’s bill to be passed would send a terrible signal to European neighbours, who would not necessarily understand the purely symbolic impact of the vote.

    The initial instruction to Labour MPs was to not vote. After a pushback, this was amended to say that while frontbenchers should do this, those on the backbenches could vote if they wanted.

    “To let such a bill pass at a time of sensitivity in negotiations over our European deal would be taken badly,” Creasy said.


    And the party splits;
    The 95 MPs voting for Farage’s proposal to leave the ECHR came from:
    The Conservatives: 87
    Reform UK: 3
    DUP: 2
    Independents: 2 (Rupert Lowe and Patrick Spencer)
    TUV: 1

    And the 155 MPs voting against came from:
    Lib Dems: 64
    Labour: 63
    Independents: 10
    SNP: 7
    Plaid Cymru: 4
    Green party: 4
    Alliance: 1
    SDLP: 1
    UUP: 1


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/oct/29/shabana-mahmood-home-office-immigration-pmqs-labour-keir-starmer-kemi-badenoch-conservatives-uk-politics-live-news

    That's a higher percentage of Conservatives than Reformers, isn't it?
    Why do we need a Convention on Human Rights? We all know how to treat our fellow human beings, don't we?
    You'd have thought so, but then again, people have lost citizenship by virtue of the fact that they could be eligible for another.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,794
    Carnyx said:

    maxh said:

    kinabalu said:

    maxh said:

    Entirely self-indulgent, apologies. My photo quota of the day.

    Wow. Which one is you?
    Green helmet. Viewcode: Pic was taken by our coach, who was also in the door (it's a very wide-angle camera). You can just see her arm with the black band on it in the bottom left of the picture.
    BTW what plane was it please? Obviously specially adapted anyway with the commuter monkey-hanger bars.
    A Cessna Grand Caravan (with something called a Blackhawk conversion to make the engine more powerful). They're standard fare in the skydiving world.

    I once jumped out of an old Russian Mi-8 helicopter in the Slovak republic, but it was somewhat sketchy - it rattled a lot at 14,000 ft!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,501

    King William V looks safe then.

    The best hope for Republicans is that the William and Kate kids grow up well-adjusted enough to realise that they don't want to be part of the circus and abdicate when they reach adulthood.
    Why should we give republicans hope?

    PB is a very weird demographic that seems to have ideological objections to monarchy.

    Most of us love it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,139

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pretty dispiriting for republicans that the most popular royal is up next in the hot seat. Charles III and all his baggage was probably their best hope for any traction and still can't get any momentum.

    ...Personally though I think the King is doing a fine job, the most intellectual and well read monarch we have had for centuries, a compassionate man and even if not as charismatic as his son or as tough as his mother was deserves to see out his reign for another decade or so before retiring to Highgrove and his plants with Camilla. Certainly better our King than President Starmer or Farage
    I agree but I think he, like his mother, will die in the saddle. My concern is that that time will come too soon.

    I think he will get to 85 and then abdicated in favour of his son. If he really had pancreatic cancer he would likely be dead by now
    I think it's a huge mistake for monarchists to support abdication/retirement for monarchs.

    As soon as you get into that game, you make it a matter of choice whether the monarch stays or goes, and it's the thin end of the wedge. You get political debates about whether and when an individual should call it a day, and lose the central advantage that it's all a lottery and separate from politics.

    I'm not a monarchist myself, just saying they lose their trump card with talk of abdication.
    Not really, even Popes and US Presidents can now retire by mid 80s.

    I wouldn't advocate abdication for any monarch before that age though
    Presidents and Popes are both elected, so conceding the principle that who does the job is ultimately a choice isn't really a problem. They are political jobs, and who does them is a political choice. Conceding the point for monarchs, who have their place in the order of succession by chance, is a problem - if you say it's ultimately a choice, you're conceding a huge point.
    Popes aren't elected by the people or even all Roman Catholics but a small college of cardinals.

    Even US Presidents are elected by an electoral college of electors from each state, not directly by the people either.

    It is also nothing to do with choice either, the next in line of succession still becomes monarch, just they have a retirement age of 85
    MONARCHY = SOCIALISM!
    No state control of the economy =socialism
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,534

    Heathrow, NatWest and Minecraft sites down amid global Microsoft outage
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3rj45n4x5eo

    Cloud computing – what could go wrong?

    Also AWS problems, and some reports of GCP. Maybe the whole internet is down other than pb.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,139
    boulay said:

    Boulay’s plans for the afterlife starting to look more positive.

    “Priest who sold his soul to Satan becomes the Catholic Church's newest saint”

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-15238787/Priest-Satan-Catholic-Church-newest-saint.html

    "Seeking answers about life and the afterlife, he turned to local mediums before eventually being guided back to the Catholic faith by Professor Vincenzo Pepe.

    After renouncing Satanism, Longo took a vow of celibacy and devoted himself to charitable works.

    He founded the Pontifical Shrine of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary of Pompeii, as well as an orphanage for girls in 1887 and an institute for the sons of prisoners in 1892. In 1922, he established another institute for the daughters of prisoners. He also volunteered for two years at the Neapolitan Hospital for Incurables.

    Longo died in 1926 and was remembered for his dramatic transformation from a life of darkness to one of faith and service, ultimately earning sainthood in the Catholic Church."
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,666
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pretty dispiriting for republicans that the most popular royal is up next in the hot seat. Charles III and all his baggage was probably their best hope for any traction and still can't get any momentum.

    ...Personally though I think the King is doing a fine job, the most intellectual and well read monarch we have had for centuries, a compassionate man and even if not as charismatic as his son or as tough as his mother was deserves to see out his reign for another decade or so before retiring to Highgrove and his plants with Camilla. Certainly better our King than President Starmer or Farage
    I agree but I think he, like his mother, will die in the saddle. My concern is that that time will come too soon.

    I think he will get to 85 and then abdicated in favour of his son. If he really had pancreatic cancer he would likely be dead by now
    I think it's a huge mistake for monarchists to support abdication/retirement for monarchs.

    As soon as you get into that game, you make it a matter of choice whether the monarch stays or goes, and it's the thin end of the wedge. You get political debates about whether and when an individual should call it a day, and lose the central advantage that it's all a lottery and separate from politics.

    I'm not a monarchist myself, just saying they lose their trump card with talk of abdication.
    Not really, even Popes and US Presidents can now retire by mid 80s.

    I wouldn't advocate abdication for any monarch before that age though
    Presidents and Popes are both elected, so conceding the principle that who does the job is ultimately a choice isn't really a problem. They are political jobs, and who does them is a political choice. Conceding the point for monarchs, who have their place in the order of succession by chance, is a problem - if you say it's ultimately a choice, you're conceding a huge point.
    Popes aren't elected by the people or even all Roman Catholics but a small college of cardinals.

    Even US Presidents are elected by an electoral college of electors from each state, not directly by the people either.

    It is also nothing to do with choice either, the next in line of succession still becomes monarch, just they have a retirement age of 85
    MONARCHY = SOCIALISM!
    No state control of the economy =socialism
    Isn't no state control of the economy something else ?
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,976

    Heathrow, NatWest and Minecraft sites down amid global Microsoft outage
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3rj45n4x5eo

    Cloud computing – what could go wrong?

    Also AWS problems, and some reports of GCP. Maybe the whole internet is down other than pb.
    My NatWest app seems to be working.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,033
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    After the obsession in the media with the fact Andrew slept with a 17 year old, stupidly but legally in the UK given age of consent is 16 and over the fact he paid £8 million for the Royal Lodge lease and refurbishments for a, again legal, peppercorn rent little surprise.

    However, still a comfortable 18% lead for monarchy over republic even in the new MiC poll. A massive 66% of Tories for retaining the monarchy and a large 65% of Reform voters for retaining the monarchy as well. A significant 18% lead for retaining the monarchy amongst LD voters and a small 10% lead for the monarchy amongst Labour voters as well.

    Clearly more Green voters want a republic than to keep the monarchy but given if Polansi won a majority he would whack up tax and nationalise so much industry and suck up to Hamas harder than Corbyn so we would be a near Marxist state that would be the least of our worries.

    What is going on with people on here over the past few days trying to miminize disgusting behaviour. The obsession isn't JUST he did this, it is that a senior member of the royal was best buds with a profilic sex trafficer, continued that friendships for years after being convicted, let said individual into the heart of royal family with invites to parties for their kids, and then has lied repeatedly about it.
    The obsession is from republicans, maybe including you, when there is no evidence Andrew did anything illegal no matter how stupid and when you largely ignore the likes of Trump, Clinton, Bill Gates, Kevin Spacey, Mandelson etc who were also in Epstein's orbit
    Quite.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,139

    FF43 said:

    viewcode said:

    The article title "Fewer than half of Brits support retaining the monarchy" would be more accurately phrased as "A plurality of Brits oppose abolishing the monarchy" :)

    Depends what point you're trying to make. If it's to indicate a lack of enthusiasm for the monarchy, the title is accurate - most people at best don't care or actively want to get rid of it.
    Indifference is what the monarchy most fears. Once most of the populace doesn’t give a fig for the mystique of someone who fantasised about being a tampon anointed by God to rule over us, it’s over.
    No, even then still better than President Farage or Starmer
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,033

    StaLLMer redefining renewal

    Renewal means handing power back to people with skin in the game - people who know what their communities need most.

    https://x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1983574128578769407

    Loathsome Americanism. Dreadful man.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,139
    edited 6:19PM
    kinabalu said:

    When I was young I opposed the monarchy on the grounds that it sanctified the principle of hereditary privilege and I'd argue that case quite strongly in a loud voice with some jabbing of fingers. These days I've become a bit more susceptible to the sort of 'would the alternative be an improvement in practice?' prevarication befitting of a man in his mid-sixties. Still, if there were a Keep/Scrap referendum I'd probably vote S. It's essentially a crazy way to select a head of state.

    Referendums are of course pointless as Brexit proved anyway. MPs and peers refused to vote to implement Brexit and the signed Withdrawal Agreements for 3 years after the 2016 EU referendum Leave vote and only the Conservative majority at the 2019 general election got it done.

    So unless the Greens win a general election majority we will likely always keep our constitutional monarchy
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,543
    No 10 really are clueless .

    Farage would have been all over the media if his Bill had passed the commons and it would have sent a dreadful message to the EU .
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,666
    I was part of the internal Trump administration team trying to convince the president to end the shutdown in 2018 - 2019 — for 35 days — before people went hungry, workers lost pay, and government services collapsed.

    Here’s what I learned: he doesn’t give a shit.

    https://x.com/MilesTaylorUSA/status/1983540082691711246
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,850
    maxh said:

    Entirely self-indulgent, apologies. My photo quota of the day.

    Ryanair now avoiding landing charges? I'll stick to Easyjet.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,666
    Nigelb said:

    I was part of the internal Trump administration team trying to convince the president to end the shutdown in 2018 - 2019 — for 35 days — before people went hungry, workers lost pay, and government services collapsed.

    Here’s what I learned: he doesn’t give a shit.

    https://x.com/MilesTaylorUSA/status/1983540082691711246

    Things he does give a shit about.

    Breaking on MSNBC:

    Two federal prosecutors have been placed on leave at the direction of the White House after filing a sentencing memo seeking 27 months in prison for a pardoned Jan. 6 rioter who brought illegal guns and ammunition to President Obama's house in 2023.

    https://x.com/kylegriffin1/status/1983547085531271428
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,139
    edited 6:25PM

    King William V looks safe then.

    The best hope for Republicans is that the William and Kate kids grow up well-adjusted enough to realise that they don't want to be part of the circus and abdicate when they reach adulthood.
    Highly unlikely and even then Prince Archie would then become our first mixed race King, or Princess Lilibet, Sienna, Athena, August or Ernest or the Earl of Wessex or Lady Louise would take the throne
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,794

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    After the obsession in the media with the fact Andrew slept with a 17 year old, stupidly but legally in the UK given age of consent is 16 and over the fact he paid £8 million for the Royal Lodge lease and refurbishments for a, again legal, peppercorn rent little surprise.

    However, still a comfortable 18% lead for monarchy over republic even in the new MiC poll. A massive 66% of Tories for retaining the monarchy and a large 65% of Reform voters for retaining the monarchy as well. A significant 18% lead for retaining the monarchy amongst LD voters and a small 10% lead for the monarchy amongst Labour voters as well.

    Clearly more Green voters want a republic than to keep the monarchy but given if Polansi won a majority he would whack up tax and nationalise so much industry and suck up to Hamas harder than Corbyn so we would be a near Marxist state that would be the least of our worries.

    What is going on with people on here over the past few days trying to miminize disgusting behaviour. The obsession isn't JUST he did this, it is that a senior member of the royal was best buds with a profilic sex trafficer, continued that friendships for years after being convicted, let said individual into the heart of royal family with invites to parties for their kids, and then has lied repeatedly about it.
    The obsession is from republicans, maybe including you, when there is no evidence Andrew did anything illegal no matter how stupid and when you largely ignore the likes of Trump, Clinton, Bill Gates, Kevin Spacey, Mandelson etc who were also in Epstein's orbit
    Quite.
    I think HY misses the point. I am (very gently) a monarchist, for the reasons OLB wrote upthread.
    But I can also see that our Royal Family, if they are to play any sensible function in modern society, should be held to a higher moral standard than politicians or actors. The late Queen did this very well and, notwithstanding his complicated relationships with Diana and Camilla, so does Charles imv.
    Thus when a fairly senior Royal is found to be in Epstein's world, I think it rightly gets more focus than a list of Americans or a politician who is known already to be pretty odious.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,811
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    When I was young I opposed the monarchy on the grounds that it sanctified the principle of hereditary privilege and I'd argue that case quite strongly in a loud voice with some jabbing of fingers. These days I've become a bit more susceptible to the sort of 'would the alternative be an improvement in practice?' prevarication befitting of a man in his mid-sixties. Still, if there were a Keep/Scrap referendum I'd probably vote S. It's essentially a crazy way to select a head of state.

    Referendums are of course pointless as Brexit proved anyway. MPs and peers refused to vote to implement Brexit and the signed Withdrawal Agreements for 3 years after the 2016 EU referendum Leave vote and only the Conservative majority at the 2019 general election got it done.

    So unless the Greens win a general election majority we will likely always keep our constitutional monarchy
    After the Brexit debacle I think I'm more opposed to Referendums than I am the Monarchy.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 38,266
    nico67 said:

    No 10 really are clueless .

    Farage would have been all over the media if his Bill had passed the commons and it would have sent a dreadful message to the EU .

    Only 154 MPs voted in favour. I know it wasn't binding or whatever, but still you would have expected more MPs to give it moral support.
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