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Think Caerphilly before betting on this by-election – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,748
edited 6:56AM in General
Think Caerphilly before betting on this by-election – politicalbetting.com

Today sees the Caerphilly by-election and these are the latest odds from Ladbrokes and I think the value might be on backing Reform to poll 45% to 50% at 4/1.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,685
    That pun in the headline is not merely unsubtle, it's positively cheesy.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,066
    ydoethur said:

    That pun in the headline is not merely unsubtle, it's positively cheesy.

    Two of them actually - or rather a pun and an allusion.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,685

    Is Caerphilly one of those places where the English built a big rock fort?

    No.

    Gilbert de Clare was Norman French.

    And it was mostly restored by John Crichton-Stuart, who was Scottish.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,066
    ydoethur said:

    Is Caerphilly one of those places where the English built a big rock fort?

    No.

    Gilbert de Clare was Norman French.

    And it was mostly restored by John Crichton-Stuart, who was Scottish.
    Oh, the same chap who did Cardiff Castle, or do I misunderstand? One of my most enjoyable outings of all time.

    But don't you give the Welsh any credit? They must have done the hard labour, after all.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,958

    It is reassuring that former MPs are able to get on with their lives once they leave parliament:

    "Ex-MP ran bogus Covid testing firm, court hears"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0kpg2n37n7o

    Makes a change for it not to be an ex Tory MP.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,685
    edited 7:08AM
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Is Caerphilly one of those places where the English built a big rock fort?

    No.

    Gilbert de Clare was Norman French.

    And it was mostly restored by John Crichton-Stuart, who was Scottish.
    Oh, the same chap who did Cardiff Castle, or do I misunderstand? One of my most enjoyable outings of all time.

    But don't you give the Welsh any credit? They must have done the hard labour, after all.
    Cardiff Castle was his father. But same sort of idea, although in fairness to the 4th Marquis another reason for restoring Caerphilly in the 30s was to try and create employment in an area that didn't have much of it.

    The Welsh spent most of their time in the 1260s trying to stop Caerphilly from being built, although they did the hard graft in the 1930s restoration (and the 1950s additional work).
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,702

    ydoethur said:

    That pun in the headline is not merely unsubtle, it's positively cheesy.

    Is Caerphilly one of those places where the English built a big rock fort?
    Norman masters but still tons of Welsh labourers needed.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,294
    What's the weather like in Caerphilly today?

    Bad enough to affect the result, and if so- who benefits?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,173
    ydoethur said:

    That pun in the headline is not merely unsubtle, it's positively cheesy.

    Ee, damn - beat me to it....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,685

    ydoethur said:

    That pun in the headline is not merely unsubtle, it's positively cheesy.

    Ee, damn - beat me to it....
    Hard cheddar.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,685
    edited 7:12AM
    On topic, if I were looking for value here I'd be looking for markets on turnout not vote share. It will probably either be shockingly low (about 15-18%) or surprisingly high (about 35-40%) depending on whether the voters in my mother's town are totally fed up and disengaged or seriously pissed off and want to send a message.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,173
    edited 7:13AM
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    That pun in the headline is not merely unsubtle, it's positively cheesy.

    Ee, damn - beat me to it....
    Hard cheddar.
    My two favourite cheese jokes:

    What cheese do you use to encourage a tardy Paddington?

    Come on, bear.....

    What cheese do you use to hide an equine?

    Mask a pony....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,685
    edited 7:15AM

    What's the weather like in Caerphilly today?

    Bad enough to affect the result, and if so- who benefits?

    Lower turnout and I would expect Plaid to be the beneficiaries. Labour voters have no reason to turn out and how many Reform voters actually plan to vote rather than just say they will? I would say high turnout is good news for the Fukkers.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,685

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    That pun in the headline is not merely unsubtle, it's positively cheesy.

    Ee, damn - beat me to it....
    Hard cheddar.
    My two favourite cheese jokes:

    What cheese do you use to encourage a tardy Paddington?

    Come on, bear.....

    What cheese do you use to hide an equine?

    Mask a pony....
    I'll take it as read, less ter accept defeat and more to stop this thread from being dominated by cheese puns.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,753
    If nothing else, this election will give us *some* polling callibration
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,173
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    That pun in the headline is not merely unsubtle, it's positively cheesy.

    Ee, damn - beat me to it....
    Hard cheddar.
    My two favourite cheese jokes:

    What cheese do you use to encourage a tardy Paddington?

    Come on, bear.....

    What cheese do you use to hide an equine?

    Mask a pony....
    I'll take it as read, less ter accept defeat and more to stop this thread from being dominated by cheese puns.
    TSE started it!
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,748

    It is reassuring that former MPs are able to get on with their lives once they leave parliament:

    "Ex-MP ran bogus Covid testing firm, court hears"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0kpg2n37n7o

    Makes a change for it not to be an ex Tory MP.
    Also a refreshing change that they've been prosecuted.
    It shows the total absence of due diligence by the government in awarding these contracts.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,685

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    That pun in the headline is not merely unsubtle, it's positively cheesy.

    Ee, damn - beat me to it....
    Hard cheddar.
    My two favourite cheese jokes:

    What cheese do you use to encourage a tardy Paddington?

    Come on, bear.....

    What cheese do you use to hide an equine?

    Mask a pony....
    I'll take it as read, less ter accept defeat and more to stop this thread from being dominated by cheese puns.
    TSE started it!
    And it was an unwise decision, it was really rocky for him to do it.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,902
    ydoethur said:

    What's the weather like in Caerphilly today?

    Bad enough to affect the result, and if so- who benefits?

    Lower turnout and I would expect Plaid to be the beneficiaries. Labour voters have no reason to turn out and how many Reform voters actually plan to vote rather than just say they will?
    Council by-election turnouts are up and that appears to be favouring Reform. I don’t see why a higher profile Senedd election would be that different.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,844
    Zack Polanski Sings Songs at LibDem Conference

    (Guido takes no liability for any ear injuries sustained by watching the video with audio enabled)

    order-order.com/2025/10/21/wat…


    https://x.com/guidofawkes/status/1980671395400216786?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • eekeek Posts: 31,585

    What's the weather like in Caerphilly today?

    Bad enough to affect the result, and if so- who benefits?

    Rain at lunchtime but not long enough to impact the result..
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,685
    eek said:

    What's the weather like in Caerphilly today?

    Bad enough to affect the result, and if so- who benefits?

    Rain at lunchtime but not long enough to impact the result..
    'rain at lunchtime' is what we call in Wales a 'dry day.'
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,126
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    That pun in the headline is not merely unsubtle, it's positively cheesy.

    Is Caerphilly one of those places where the English built a big rock fort?
    Norman masters but still tons of Welsh labourers needed.
    I read Leicester folk were involved too.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,173
    ydoethur said:

    What's the weather like in Caerphilly today?

    Bad enough to affect the result, and if so- who benefits?

    Lower turnout and I would expect Plaid to be the beneficiaries. Labour voters have no reason to turn out and how many Reform voters actually plan to vote rather than just say they will? I would say high turnout is good news for the Fukkers.
    Fun timing for the campaign...

    Labour: "We have solved the small boats crisis by implementing a one in, one out policy."

    Reform: "Er...."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clykzx43v0po
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,702
    ydoethur said:

    What's the weather like in Caerphilly today?

    Bad enough to affect the result, and if so- who benefits?

    Lower turnout and I would expect Plaid to be the beneficiaries. Labour voters have no reason to turn out and how many Reform voters actually plan to vote rather than just say they will? I would say high turnout is good news for the Fukkers.
    I looked at the odds above on Ladbrokes, and have put a fiver on Plaid.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,685

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    That pun in the headline is not merely unsubtle, it's positively cheesy.

    Is Caerphilly one of those places where the English built a big rock fort?
    Norman masters but still tons of Welsh labourers needed.
    I read Leicester folk were involved too.
    Nah, Gilbert de Clare was semi local. They got him and his son, a double Gloucester patronage.
  • eekeek Posts: 31,585

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    That pun in the headline is not merely unsubtle, it's positively cheesy.

    Is Caerphilly one of those places where the English built a big rock fort?
    Norman masters but still tons of Welsh labourers needed.
    I read Leicester folk were involved too.
    BBC 4 had Fred Dibnah looking at the North Wales castles a couple of weeks ago. It was decent money for the summer season and it meant people came from all over...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,753
    On the immigration law ghastliness

    - a British Passport may help but isn’t 100% solid. Why?
    - The Home Sec. can withdraw citizenship from any “dual national”
    - From the Begum case, a dual national is someone who *is eligible* for another passport
    - Renouncing another nationality might well not be enough. Most countries that allow renunciation allow reacquiring citizenship.
    - So a future Home Sec. issues an order cancelling the citizenship of x hundred thousand people in one go.

    In Ancient Athens, the Thirty Tyrants used the cancellation of citizenship to get round a law on trials for citizens.

    It’s all been done before
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,433
    ydoethur said:

    Is Caerphilly one of those places where the English built a big rock fort?

    No.

    Gilbert de Clare was Norman French.

    And it was mostly restored by John Crichton-Stuart, who was Scottish.
    So the English paid for the Scots and the French do their menial labour? Sounds about right.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,685

    ydoethur said:

    Is Caerphilly one of those places where the English built a big rock fort?

    No.

    Gilbert de Clare was Norman French.

    And it was mostly restored by John Crichton-Stuart, who was Scottish.
    So the English paid for the Scots and the French do their menial labour? Sounds about right.
    Well, that's an interesting take on it.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,433

    ydoethur said:

    That pun in the headline is not merely unsubtle, it's positively cheesy.

    Ee, damn - beat me to it....
    Should Gouda you on to try harder
  • isamisam Posts: 42,844
    Actual shot (not AI!) of a French detective working the case of the French Crown Jewels that were stolen from the Louvre in a brazen daylight robbery.

    Somehow he looks like he’s smoking even without a cigarette in his hand, but surely everything you know about life is screaming at you: this case is officially screwed!

    To solve it, we need an unshaven, overweight, washed-out detective who's in the middle of divorce. A functioning alcoholic who the rest of the department hates.

    Never gonna crack it with a detective who wears an actual fedora unironically.


    https://x.com/msmelchen/status/1981022488722047463?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,753
    a
    Foss said:

    ydoethur said:

    What's the weather like in Caerphilly today?

    Bad enough to affect the result, and if so- who benefits?

    Lower turnout and I would expect Plaid to be the beneficiaries. Labour voters have no reason to turn out and how many Reform voters actually plan to vote rather than just say they will?
    Council by-election turnouts are up and that appears to be favouring Reform. I don’t see why a higher profile Senedd election would be that different.
    The Reform people I know are *angry*

    Especially at the Conservatives and Labour.

    Don’t know any Welsh Reform types - but I wouldn’t be surprised if they include Plaid in their “The existing parties are a conspiracy against The People” schtick.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,253
    OT. Tommy Robinson meets Fleur Hassan-Nahoum in Israel. What a couple!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqDPuJbU2qU
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,445
    Agreed. I've taken the 10/1

    Seems like value
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,698
    Oh god I’ve just heard the England Women’s cricket captain say “we will take the learnings away from this”. She should be booted from the squad immediately. And sent to prison. Forever.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,091

    On the immigration law ghastliness

    - a British Passport may help but isn’t 100% solid. Why?
    - The Home Sec. can withdraw citizenship from any “dual national”
    - From the Begum case, a dual national is someone who *is eligible* for another passport
    - Renouncing another nationality might well not be enough. Most countries that allow renunciation allow reacquiring citizenship.
    - So a future Home Sec. issues an order cancelling the citizenship of x hundred thousand people in one go.

    In Ancient Athens, the Thirty Tyrants used the cancellation of citizenship to get round a law on trials for citizens.

    It’s all been done before

    As a Jewish person theoretically eligible for an Israeli passport this precedent has always been a little worrying.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,604
    Thoughts and non-ecumenical prayers for a particular community in Glasgow.

    BBC Breakfast
    @BBCBreakfast
    1h
    'It's not since 1534 that a British monarch will have prayed next to a Catholic Pope'
    Mark Lowen spoke to #BBCBreakfast from Vatican City where King Charles will take part in a service with Pope Leo, the first time this will have happened since the Church of England split from the Catholic Church

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/articles/
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,384
    ydoethur said:

    Is Caerphilly one of those places where the English built a big rock fort?

    No.

    Gilbert de Clare was Norman French.

    And it was mostly restored by John Crichton-Stuart, who was Scottish.
    Gilbert de Clare might have been ethnic Norman but as his family had lived in England since the conquest, ie 200 years, I'd call him English.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 31,241
    My predictions:

    Reform > Plaid > Labour

    Newly elected fuker becomes locally very unpopular very quickly when people realise they are not getting a moon on a stick. Fukers turn nasty.

    Use the unpopularity of elected fukers as the political weather vane. They're making an embarrassment of themselves in places like Kent, and there is a lot more to come.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,384

    a

    Foss said:

    ydoethur said:

    What's the weather like in Caerphilly today?

    Bad enough to affect the result, and if so- who benefits?

    Lower turnout and I would expect Plaid to be the beneficiaries. Labour voters have no reason to turn out and how many Reform voters actually plan to vote rather than just say they will?
    Council by-election turnouts are up and that appears to be favouring Reform. I don’t see why a higher profile Senedd election would be that different.
    The Reform people I know are *angry*

    Especially at the Conservatives and Labour.

    Don’t know any Welsh Reform types - but I wouldn’t be surprised if they include Plaid in their “The existing parties are a conspiracy against The People” schtick.
    Plaid seems to mainly be a party for Welsh speakers and I would guess Reform voters are a quite different demographic
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,464
    Morning all :)

    Zack Polanski was a Lib Dem but so was Lizzie Truss...the first line of a classic song if there ever was one.

    The cynic might say that will be two parties infiltrated and ruined by Lib Dem agents - we'll activate the Labour and Reform agents if and when needed. :)

    Welsh politics and cheese - two topics with which I could well do without on a bleak Thursday morning in London Town. Never mind.

    A positive story from the City to start the day:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq50z91z6q4o

  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 31,241

    a

    Foss said:

    ydoethur said:

    What's the weather like in Caerphilly today?

    Bad enough to affect the result, and if so- who benefits?

    Lower turnout and I would expect Plaid to be the beneficiaries. Labour voters have no reason to turn out and how many Reform voters actually plan to vote rather than just say they will?
    Council by-election turnouts are up and that appears to be favouring Reform. I don’t see why a higher profile Senedd election would be that different.
    The Reform people I know are *angry*

    Especially at the Conservatives and Labour.

    Don’t know any Welsh Reform types - but I wouldn’t be surprised if they include Plaid in their “The existing parties are a conspiracy against The People” schtick.
    They have a right to be angry - the economy and the country have gone to shit. But wait to see how angry they will be when the "just do x" policy promised doesn't materialise. They can't blame others for long before it becomes clear that x is laughably unworkable.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,698

    Thoughts and non-ecumenical prayers for a particular community in Glasgow.

    BBC Breakfast
    @BBCBreakfast
    1h
    'It's not since 1534 that a British monarch will have prayed next to a Catholic Pope'
    Mark Lowen spoke to #BBCBreakfast from Vatican City where King Charles will take part in a service with Pope Leo, the first time this will have happened since the Church of England split from the Catholic Church

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/articles/

    They keep trotting out the line about it being the first time an English King has prayed with pope since 1534 as if it’s something that used to happen all the time but I can’t find any English ruler who has prayed with a Pope anyway. I think one Scots king did.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,296

    a

    Foss said:

    ydoethur said:

    What's the weather like in Caerphilly today?

    Bad enough to affect the result, and if so- who benefits?

    Lower turnout and I would expect Plaid to be the beneficiaries. Labour voters have no reason to turn out and how many Reform voters actually plan to vote rather than just say they will?
    Council by-election turnouts are up and that appears to be favouring Reform. I don’t see why a higher profile Senedd election would be that different.
    The Reform people I know are *angry*

    Especially at the Conservatives and Labour.

    Don’t know any Welsh Reform types - but I wouldn’t be surprised if they include Plaid in their “The existing parties are a conspiracy against The People” schtick.
    We view and participate in and view the same media sources as you, and we know, particularly from the BBC Political Editor that Labour are corrupt, chaotic and incompetent whilst Reform are scrupulous, exciting and dynamic. And no one has ever heard of Nathan Who?

    Plaid are still peripheral and no one has noticed they have been propping Labour up in the Senedd for years. They might do OK from the anyone but Labour vote.

    In a Welsh context the LDs and Conservatives don't really trouble the electorate any more.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,296
    Roger said:

    OT. Tommy Robinson meets Fleur Hassan-Nahoum in Israel. What a couple!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqDPuJbU2qU

    Collecting the away fan tickets for Villa Park?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 38,175
    My prediction for Caerphilly

    Ref 43.0%
    PC 42.0%
    Lab 9.5%
    Con 2.5%
    LD 1.5%
    Grn 1.0%
    Gwlad 0.3%
    UKIP 0.2%

    https://vote-2012.proboards.com/thread/19743/caerphilly-senedd-election-october-2025
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,384

    My predictions:

    Reform > Plaid > Labour

    Newly elected fuker becomes locally very unpopular very quickly when people realise they are not getting a moon on a stick. Fukers turn nasty.

    Use the unpopularity of elected fukers as the political weather vane. They're making an embarrassment of themselves in places like Kent, and there is a lot more to come.

    Why would one elected Senedd member become unpopular? They are not going to be in a position to offer a moon on a stick as the Welsh government will remain Labour. The new Senedd member will be freely able to snipe from the sidelines
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,066

    On the immigration law ghastliness

    - a British Passport may help but isn’t 100% solid. Why?
    - The Home Sec. can withdraw citizenship from any “dual national”
    - From the Begum case, a dual national is someone who *is eligible* for another passport
    - Renouncing another nationality might well not be enough. Most countries that allow renunciation allow reacquiring citizenship.
    - So a future Home Sec. issues an order cancelling the citizenship of x hundred thousand people in one go.

    In Ancient Athens, the Thirty Tyrants used the cancellation of citizenship to get round a law on trials for citizens.

    It’s all been done before

    As a Jewish person theoretically eligible for an Israeli passport this precedent has always been a little worrying.
    Irish people, including those born in NI, too.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,296
    Andy_JS said:

    My prediction for Caerphilly

    Ref 43.0%
    PC 42.0%
    Lab 9.5%
    Con 2.5%
    LD 1.5%
    Grn 1.0%
    Gwlad 0.3%
    UKIP 0.2%

    https://vote-2012.proboards.com/thread/19743/caerphilly-senedd-election-october-2025

    You may be right, but is there some wishcasting built into your prediction?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,066
    boulay said:

    Thoughts and non-ecumenical prayers for a particular community in Glasgow.

    BBC Breakfast
    @BBCBreakfast
    1h
    'It's not since 1534 that a British monarch will have prayed next to a Catholic Pope'
    Mark Lowen spoke to #BBCBreakfast from Vatican City where King Charles will take part in a service with Pope Leo, the first time this will have happened since the Church of England split from the Catholic Church

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/articles/

    They keep trotting out the line about it being the first time an English King has prayed with pope since 1534 as if it’s something that used to happen all the time but I can’t find any English ruler who has prayed with a Pope anyway. I think one Scots king did.
    Alfred went to Rome didn't he?

    Two Kings of Scots - Macbeth and James VIII. Admittedly debated at the time.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,604
    boulay said:

    Thoughts and non-ecumenical prayers for a particular community in Glasgow.

    BBC Breakfast
    @BBCBreakfast
    1h
    'It's not since 1534 that a British monarch will have prayed next to a Catholic Pope'
    Mark Lowen spoke to #BBCBreakfast from Vatican City where King Charles will take part in a service with Pope Leo, the first time this will have happened since the Church of England split from the Catholic Church

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/articles/

    They keep trotting out the line about it being the first time an English King has prayed with pope since 1534 as if it’s something that used to happen all the time but I can’t find any English ruler who has prayed with a Pope anyway. I think one Scots king did.
    No doubt plenty sent grovelling letters to popes.

    One of my favourite contra facts is that William of Orange was supported by Pope Innocent.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 31,241
    Fascinating Tesla Earnings Call overnight.

    Musk is a moron. He is All In on AI and autonomy. To be fair to xAI (which is X, not Tesla) they went from Zero to leading edge in a couple of years. But on vehicles? Even their CFO said that fleetwide takeup of Full Self Driving is 12%. That isn't helped by Tesla selling a lot of vehicles incapable of FSD - Europe, Japan, older vehicles. But even with cars capable of running it takeup is c. 20%. Why? Because people like to drive.

    So what is the big plan? A fleet of wheeled robots which will put Uber et al out of business. And then Optimus robots which supposedly can replace surgeons and Elon describes as a "robot army"

    Elon Musk - the man calling for the violent overthrow of governments like here in the UK - thinks these governments will license him to sell a "robot army". Which will utterly destroy jobs and crash economies. If the likes of him want to start talking about UBI then maybe, but they never do.

    Just build cars man. The best selling car in the world which is also the safest car ever tested. Which makes a GM profit. Why on earth would you not want to out-think and out-compete legacy dinosaur manufacturers who make serious negative GM on their EVs and keep going bankrupt?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,372
    Good morning everyone.

    Clearly a hip pun.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,753

    My predictions:

    Reform > Plaid > Labour

    Newly elected fuker becomes locally very unpopular very quickly when people realise they are not getting a moon on a stick. Fukers turn nasty.

    Use the unpopularity of elected fukers as the political weather vane. They're making an embarrassment of themselves in places like Kent, and there is a lot more to come.

    Why would one elected Senedd member become unpopular? They are not going to be in a position to offer a moon on a stick as the Welsh government will remain Labour. The new Senedd member will be freely able to snipe from the sidelines
    Indeed - what Kent etc tells us is that it takes them taking power to *start* to get found out.

    Possibly the worst general election result will be

    - Reform largest party
    - A coalition of Everyone Else to keep them out
    - Reform can snipe at the resulting chaos without needing to take responsibility.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,902

    My predictions:

    Reform > Plaid > Labour

    Newly elected fuker becomes locally very unpopular very quickly when people realise they are not getting a moon on a stick. Fukers turn nasty.

    Use the unpopularity of elected fukers as the political weather vane. They're making an embarrassment of themselves in places like Kent, and there is a lot more to come.

    In the Senedd they won't be able to do anything and will get to bask in the ideological purity of opposition.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,701
    edited 8:00AM

    Fascinating Tesla Earnings Call overnight.

    Musk is a moron. He is All In on AI and autonomy. To be fair to xAI (which is X, not Tesla) they went from Zero to leading edge in a couple of years. But on vehicles? Even their CFO said that fleetwide takeup of Full Self Driving is 12%. That isn't helped by Tesla selling a lot of vehicles incapable of FSD - Europe, Japan, older vehicles. But even with cars capable of running it takeup is c. 20%. Why? Because people like to drive.

    So what is the big plan? A fleet of wheeled robots which will put Uber et al out of business. And then Optimus robots which supposedly can replace surgeons and Elon describes as a "robot army"

    Elon Musk - the man calling for the violent overthrow of governments like here in the UK - thinks these governments will license him to sell a "robot army". Which will utterly destroy jobs and crash economies. If the likes of him want to start talking about UBI then maybe, but they never do.

    Just build cars man. The best selling car in the world which is also the safest car ever tested. Which makes a GM profit. Why on earth would you not want to out-think and out-compete legacy dinosaur manufacturers who make serious negative GM on their EVs and keep going bankrupt?

    The self-driving cars are only useful once they are allowed to drive empty and/or pick you up from the pub.

    Self-driving where the liability is on the driver to stay alert and take over when it goes bong, is the worst of all worlds.

    It’s probably a couple of years away, but it’s been a couple of years away for the best part of a decade so far.

    Tesla Q3 revenue up from $25.2bn to $28.1bn year-on-year is a pretty good effort in today’s car market.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,253
    Roger said:

    OT. Tommy Robinson meets Fleur Hassan-Nahoum in Israel. What a couple!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqDPuJbU2qU

    This man is more dangerous than Farage. There's an air of authenticity about him that Farage doesn't have.

    Who knew Luton was like Gaza?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,672
    boulay said:

    Thoughts and non-ecumenical prayers for a particular community in Glasgow.

    BBC Breakfast
    @BBCBreakfast
    1h
    'It's not since 1534 that a British monarch will have prayed next to a Catholic Pope'
    Mark Lowen spoke to #BBCBreakfast from Vatican City where King Charles will take part in a service with Pope Leo, the first time this will have happened since the Church of England split from the Catholic Church

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/articles/

    They keep trotting out the line about it being the first time an English King has prayed with pope since 1534 as if it’s something that used to happen all the time but I can’t find any English ruler who has prayed with a Pope anyway. I think one Scots king did.
    IIRC Macbeth went to Rome and met the Pope. Its not a big leap that they might have prayed together.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,902

    Fascinating Tesla Earnings Call overnight.

    Musk is a moron. He is All In on AI and autonomy. To be fair to xAI (which is X, not Tesla) they went from Zero to leading edge in a couple of years. But on vehicles? Even their CFO said that fleetwide takeup of Full Self Driving is 12%. That isn't helped by Tesla selling a lot of vehicles incapable of FSD - Europe, Japan, older vehicles. But even with cars capable of running it takeup is c. 20%. Why? Because people like to drive.

    So what is the big plan? A fleet of wheeled robots which will put Uber et al out of business. And then Optimus robots which supposedly can replace surgeons and Elon describes as a "robot army"

    Elon Musk - the man calling for the violent overthrow of governments like here in the UK - thinks these governments will license him to sell a "robot army". Which will utterly destroy jobs and crash economies. If the likes of him want to start talking about UBI then maybe, but they never do.

    Just build cars man. The best selling car in the world which is also the safest car ever tested. Which makes a GM profit. Why on earth would you not want to out-think and out-compete legacy dinosaur manufacturers who make serious negative GM on their EVs and keep going bankrupt?

    People like to drive sometimes. Other times they want their car to be able to bring them home from the pub or a meal out after a few glasses.

    And if* a viable robot surgeon causes wait times and costs to crater then it's going to be hard for any government to resist. I'd expect any first world resistance to cause a charitable deployment in the third world.

    *Strong 'if' here.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,753
    Sandpit said:

    Fascinating Tesla Earnings Call overnight.

    Musk is a moron. He is All In on AI and autonomy. To be fair to xAI (which is X, not Tesla) they went from Zero to leading edge in a couple of years. But on vehicles? Even their CFO said that fleetwide takeup of Full Self Driving is 12%. That isn't helped by Tesla selling a lot of vehicles incapable of FSD - Europe, Japan, older vehicles. But even with cars capable of running it takeup is c. 20%. Why? Because people like to drive.

    So what is the big plan? A fleet of wheeled robots which will put Uber et al out of business. And then Optimus robots which supposedly can replace surgeons and Elon describes as a "robot army"

    Elon Musk - the man calling for the violent overthrow of governments like here in the UK - thinks these governments will license him to sell a "robot army". Which will utterly destroy jobs and crash economies. If the likes of him want to start talking about UBI then maybe, but they never do.

    Just build cars man. The best selling car in the world which is also the safest car ever tested. Which makes a GM profit. Why on earth would you not want to out-think and out-compete legacy dinosaur manufacturers who make serious negative GM on their EVs and keep going bankrupt?

    The self-driving cars are only useful once they are allowed to drive empty and/or pick you up from the pub.

    Self-driving where the liability is on the driver to stay alert and take over when it goes bong, is the worst of all worlds.

    It’s probably a couple of years away, but it’s been a couple of years away for the best part of a decade so far.

    Tesla Q3 revenue up from $25.2bn to $28.1bn year-on-year is a pretty good effort in today’s car market.
    Waymo et al are already on the road in the US. They are coming here.

    Buying your own self driving car is just the next step.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,031
    Carnyx said:

    boulay said:

    Thoughts and non-ecumenical prayers for a particular community in Glasgow.

    BBC Breakfast
    @BBCBreakfast
    1h
    'It's not since 1534 that a British monarch will have prayed next to a Catholic Pope'
    Mark Lowen spoke to #BBCBreakfast from Vatican City where King Charles will take part in a service with Pope Leo, the first time this will have happened since the Church of England split from the Catholic Church

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/articles/

    They keep trotting out the line about it being the first time an English King has prayed with pope since 1534 as if it’s something that used to happen all the time but I can’t find any English ruler who has prayed with a Pope anyway. I think one Scots king did.
    Alfred went to Rome didn't he?

    Two Kings of Scots - Macbeth and James VIII. Admittedly debated at the time.
    Yes, but he wasn't king at the time.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,464
    Thinking more long term, I wonder if Reform are here to stay.

    The LDs were, in their time, the repository of protest votes from the disillusioned, frustrated and angry but of course disappointed when they got to power and were comprehensively rejected in 2015.

    The Conservatives got their come uppance in 2024 (and 1997) while Labour have lost power in 1979 and 2010.

    Yet none of them has gone - all are still here.

    If Reform win in 2028/9 and disappoint and lose power in 2033/4, will they fold up their tents and disappear back into obscurity? I suspect not - their brand of nationalist, anti-immigrant, socially conservative politics has a niche which I suspect none of the other parties can fully replace.

    It may well be we are entering a prolonged period of political instability and electoral volatility.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 31,241
    Sandpit said:

    Fascinating Tesla Earnings Call overnight.

    Musk is a moron. He is All In on AI and autonomy. To be fair to xAI (which is X, not Tesla) they went from Zero to leading edge in a couple of years. But on vehicles? Even their CFO said that fleetwide takeup of Full Self Driving is 12%. That isn't helped by Tesla selling a lot of vehicles incapable of FSD - Europe, Japan, older vehicles. But even with cars capable of running it takeup is c. 20%. Why? Because people like to drive.

    So what is the big plan? A fleet of wheeled robots which will put Uber et al out of business. And then Optimus robots which supposedly can replace surgeons and Elon describes as a "robot army"

    Elon Musk - the man calling for the violent overthrow of governments like here in the UK - thinks these governments will license him to sell a "robot army". Which will utterly destroy jobs and crash economies. If the likes of him want to start talking about UBI then maybe, but they never do.

    Just build cars man. The best selling car in the world which is also the safest car ever tested. Which makes a GM profit. Why on earth would you not want to out-think and out-compete legacy dinosaur manufacturers who make serious negative GM on their EVs and keep going bankrupt?

    The self-driving cars are only useful once they are allowed to drive empty and/or pick you up from the pub.

    Self-driving where the liability is on the driver to stay alert and take over when it goes bong, is the worst of all worlds.

    It’s probably a couple of years away, but it’s been a couple of years away for the best part of a decade so far.
    Here's the problem. Getting UBER licensed has taken effort, because it puts cab drivers out of a job. Now Muskybaby wants to destroy the taxi industry as a whole. If you are a European government or even a city, why would you license that?

    And the "robot army" (and he used those exact words to describe scaled production of Optimus). Which can take jobs in vast numbers. The same - why would you license it?

    This is the reverse industrial revolution. People complained then that the machines would take their jobs, but for much of the time the expansion in economic output meant more jobs. AI and Robotics means the literal decimation of jobs, likely many times over. Unless governments are prepared to give money to the newly unemployed the rollout of these technologies will be a socioeconomic disaster...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,066

    Carnyx said:

    boulay said:

    Thoughts and non-ecumenical prayers for a particular community in Glasgow.

    BBC Breakfast
    @BBCBreakfast
    1h
    'It's not since 1534 that a British monarch will have prayed next to a Catholic Pope'
    Mark Lowen spoke to #BBCBreakfast from Vatican City where King Charles will take part in a service with Pope Leo, the first time this will have happened since the Church of England split from the Catholic Church

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/articles/

    They keep trotting out the line about it being the first time an English King has prayed with pope since 1534 as if it’s something that used to happen all the time but I can’t find any English ruler who has prayed with a Pope anyway. I think one Scots king did.
    Alfred went to Rome didn't he?

    Two Kings of Scots - Macbeth and James VIII. Admittedly debated at the time.
    Yes, but he wasn't king at the time.
    Thanks, long time since I read the relevant Alfred Duggen novel!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,296
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT. Tommy Robinson meets Fleur Hassan-Nahoum in Israel. What a couple!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqDPuJbU2qU

    This man is more dangerous than Farage. There's an air of authenticity about him that Farage doesn't have.

    Who knew Luton was like Gaza?
    Our grandfather's and great-grandfather's laid down their lives to ensure our nation was not run by someone like Stephen Yaxley-Lennon. If we start to consider voting for the b******s, was it worth their while?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,701

    Sandpit said:

    Fascinating Tesla Earnings Call overnight.

    Musk is a moron. He is All In on AI and autonomy. To be fair to xAI (which is X, not Tesla) they went from Zero to leading edge in a couple of years. But on vehicles? Even their CFO said that fleetwide takeup of Full Self Driving is 12%. That isn't helped by Tesla selling a lot of vehicles incapable of FSD - Europe, Japan, older vehicles. But even with cars capable of running it takeup is c. 20%. Why? Because people like to drive.

    So what is the big plan? A fleet of wheeled robots which will put Uber et al out of business. And then Optimus robots which supposedly can replace surgeons and Elon describes as a "robot army"

    Elon Musk - the man calling for the violent overthrow of governments like here in the UK - thinks these governments will license him to sell a "robot army". Which will utterly destroy jobs and crash economies. If the likes of him want to start talking about UBI then maybe, but they never do.

    Just build cars man. The best selling car in the world which is also the safest car ever tested. Which makes a GM profit. Why on earth would you not want to out-think and out-compete legacy dinosaur manufacturers who make serious negative GM on their EVs and keep going bankrupt?

    The self-driving cars are only useful once they are allowed to drive empty and/or pick you up from the pub.

    Self-driving where the liability is on the driver to stay alert and take over when it goes bong, is the worst of all worlds.

    It’s probably a couple of years away, but it’s been a couple of years away for the best part of a decade so far.
    Here's the problem. Getting UBER licensed has taken effort, because it puts cab drivers out of a job. Now Muskybaby wants to destroy the taxi industry as a whole. If you are a European government or even a city, why would you license that?

    And the "robot army" (and he used those exact words to describe scaled production of Optimus). Which can take jobs in vast numbers. The same - why would you license it?

    This is the reverse industrial revolution. People complained then that the machines would take their jobs, but for much of the time the expansion in economic output meant more jobs. AI and Robotics means the literal decimation of jobs, likely many times over. Unless governments are prepared to give money to the newly unemployed the rollout of these technologies will be a socioeconomic disaster...
    In that case, I might be one of the first PBers to experience them!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,031
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    boulay said:

    Thoughts and non-ecumenical prayers for a particular community in Glasgow.

    BBC Breakfast
    @BBCBreakfast
    1h
    'It's not since 1534 that a British monarch will have prayed next to a Catholic Pope'
    Mark Lowen spoke to #BBCBreakfast from Vatican City where King Charles will take part in a service with Pope Leo, the first time this will have happened since the Church of England split from the Catholic Church

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/articles/

    They keep trotting out the line about it being the first time an English King has prayed with pope since 1534 as if it’s something that used to happen all the time but I can’t find any English ruler who has prayed with a Pope anyway. I think one Scots king did.
    Alfred went to Rome didn't he?

    Two Kings of Scots - Macbeth and James VIII. Admittedly debated at the time.
    Yes, but he wasn't king at the time.
    Thanks, long time since I read the relevant Alfred Duggen novel!
    Never read that, but Pollard's biography of Alfred has him going there when he's a pretty young boy (I think, it's also been a while).
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,672

    Sandpit said:

    Fascinating Tesla Earnings Call overnight.

    Musk is a moron. He is All In on AI and autonomy. To be fair to xAI (which is X, not Tesla) they went from Zero to leading edge in a couple of years. But on vehicles? Even their CFO said that fleetwide takeup of Full Self Driving is 12%. That isn't helped by Tesla selling a lot of vehicles incapable of FSD - Europe, Japan, older vehicles. But even with cars capable of running it takeup is c. 20%. Why? Because people like to drive.

    So what is the big plan? A fleet of wheeled robots which will put Uber et al out of business. And then Optimus robots which supposedly can replace surgeons and Elon describes as a "robot army"

    Elon Musk - the man calling for the violent overthrow of governments like here in the UK - thinks these governments will license him to sell a "robot army". Which will utterly destroy jobs and crash economies. If the likes of him want to start talking about UBI then maybe, but they never do.

    Just build cars man. The best selling car in the world which is also the safest car ever tested. Which makes a GM profit. Why on earth would you not want to out-think and out-compete legacy dinosaur manufacturers who make serious negative GM on their EVs and keep going bankrupt?

    The self-driving cars are only useful once they are allowed to drive empty and/or pick you up from the pub.

    Self-driving where the liability is on the driver to stay alert and take over when it goes bong, is the worst of all worlds.

    It’s probably a couple of years away, but it’s been a couple of years away for the best part of a decade so far.
    Here's the problem. Getting UBER licensed has taken effort, because it puts cab drivers out of a job. Now Muskybaby wants to destroy the taxi industry as a whole. If you are a European government or even a city, why would you license that?

    And the "robot army" (and he used those exact words to describe scaled production of Optimus). Which can take jobs in vast numbers. The same - why would you license it?

    This is the reverse industrial revolution. People complained then that the machines would take their jobs, but for much of the time the expansion in economic output meant more jobs. AI and Robotics means the literal decimation of jobs, likely many times over. Unless governments are prepared to give money to the newly unemployed the rollout of these technologies will be a socioeconomic disaster...
    May I refer you to the Caves of Steel published in 1951 where Asimov forecast riots that involved the destruction of robots who had "stolen" jobs.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,372
    edited 8:09AM

    On the immigration law ghastliness

    - a British Passport may help but isn’t 100% solid. Why?
    - The Home Sec. can withdraw citizenship from any “dual national”
    - From the Begum case, a dual national is someone who *is eligible* for another passport
    - Renouncing another nationality might well not be enough. Most countries that allow renunciation allow reacquiring citizenship.
    - So a future Home Sec. issues an order cancelling the citizenship of x hundred thousand people in one go.

    In Ancient Athens, the Thirty Tyrants used the cancellation of citizenship to get round a law on trials for citizens.

    It’s all been done before

    This for me is in the category "it may need to be there, but minimal use is even more important".

    Compare with Royal or Presidential Pardons. In the UK we have typically had from zero to a few for each decade. Similar numbers apply in other European countries afaics. *

    Compare to the USA where Presidential Pardons are a wired-in part of political corruption, and part of the mechanism for wealthy people to carry out organised crime without consequences. Plus are used as a sticky plaster on a broken system for those who can get attention or have powerful friends.

    The important feature is to have it firewalled away from daily politics. That's a problem - MAYBE - with the decision still being with the Home Secretary. But OTOH we have the Conservatives saying they will abolish the Sentencing Council, which is a structure it has taken us half a century to develop to get such decisions away from day to day politics.

    * Though there is a risk of this becoming an expected rubber stamp for success of tabloid media campaigns around "historical injustices" which need no intervention eg in the current witch trial campaigns, in the same way
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,126

    On the immigration law ghastliness

    - a British Passport may help but isn’t 100% solid. Why?
    - The Home Sec. can withdraw citizenship from any “dual national”
    - From the Begum case, a dual national is someone who *is eligible* for another passport
    - Renouncing another nationality might well not be enough. Most countries that allow renunciation allow reacquiring citizenship.
    - So a future Home Sec. issues an order cancelling the citizenship of x hundred thousand people in one go.

    In Ancient Athens, the Thirty Tyrants used the cancellation of citizenship to get round a law on trials for citizens.

    It’s all been done before

    As a Jewish person theoretically eligible for an Israeli passport this precedent has always been a little worrying.
    History tells us that things done to the “undesirables” at breakfast are done to the Jews by mid-morning, to blacks at lunchtime and everyone else by afternoon tea.

    “Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!”
    Deporting people who have a legal right to be here has been done to black people multiple times already - hence the Windrush scandal.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,066

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    boulay said:

    Thoughts and non-ecumenical prayers for a particular community in Glasgow.

    BBC Breakfast
    @BBCBreakfast
    1h
    'It's not since 1534 that a British monarch will have prayed next to a Catholic Pope'
    Mark Lowen spoke to #BBCBreakfast from Vatican City where King Charles will take part in a service with Pope Leo, the first time this will have happened since the Church of England split from the Catholic Church

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/articles/

    They keep trotting out the line about it being the first time an English King has prayed with pope since 1534 as if it’s something that used to happen all the time but I can’t find any English ruler who has prayed with a Pope anyway. I think one Scots king did.
    Alfred went to Rome didn't he?

    Two Kings of Scots - Macbeth and James VIII. Admittedly debated at the time.
    Yes, but he wasn't king at the time.
    Thanks, long time since I read the relevant Alfred Duggen novel!
    Never read that, but Pollard's biography of Alfred has him going there when he's a pretty young boy (I think, it's also been a while).
    The Duggan historical novels went out of print and are hard to get nowadays, which is a shame I think. Surprised they haven't been reprinted by people such as OUP and Red Fox, whence I am currently revisiting my childhood reading in the form of Sutcliffe and Treece (and filling in the ones I missed at the time).
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,698
    DavidL said:

    boulay said:

    Thoughts and non-ecumenical prayers for a particular community in Glasgow.

    BBC Breakfast
    @BBCBreakfast
    1h
    'It's not since 1534 that a British monarch will have prayed next to a Catholic Pope'
    Mark Lowen spoke to #BBCBreakfast from Vatican City where King Charles will take part in a service with Pope Leo, the first time this will have happened since the Church of England split from the Catholic Church

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/articles/

    They keep trotting out the line about it being the first time an English King has prayed with pope since 1534 as if it’s something that used to happen all the time but I can’t find any English ruler who has prayed with a Pope anyway. I think one Scots king did.
    IIRC Macbeth went to Rome and met the Pope. Its not a big leap that they might have prayed together.
    Duh, Macbeth isn’t real, he’s a character in a film.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,253

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT. Tommy Robinson meets Fleur Hassan-Nahoum in Israel. What a couple!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqDPuJbU2qU

    This man is more dangerous than Farage. There's an air of authenticity about him that Farage doesn't have.

    Who knew Luton was like Gaza?
    Our grandfather's and great-grandfather's laid down their lives to ensure our nation was not run by someone like Stephen Yaxley-Lennon. If we start to consider voting for the b******s, was it worth their while?
    He's poision and he's a racist but this is the first time I've listened to him for more than half a minute and if Farage has an appeal which I've never understood then I can see Yaxley-Lennon having an even greater one. There's a crude authenticity to him which Farage in all his guises has never had. If we are heading in that direction heaven help us.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,066
    boulay said:

    DavidL said:

    boulay said:

    Thoughts and non-ecumenical prayers for a particular community in Glasgow.

    BBC Breakfast
    @BBCBreakfast
    1h
    'It's not since 1534 that a British monarch will have prayed next to a Catholic Pope'
    Mark Lowen spoke to #BBCBreakfast from Vatican City where King Charles will take part in a service with Pope Leo, the first time this will have happened since the Church of England split from the Catholic Church

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/articles/

    They keep trotting out the line about it being the first time an English King has prayed with pope since 1534 as if it’s something that used to happen all the time but I can’t find any English ruler who has prayed with a Pope anyway. I think one Scots king did.
    IIRC Macbeth went to Rome and met the Pope. Its not a big leap that they might have prayed together.
    Duh, Macbeth isn’t real, he’s a character in a film.
    And Japanese as any fule kno.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 31,241
    stodge said:

    Thinking more long term, I wonder if Reform are here to stay.

    The LDs were, in their time, the repository of protest votes from the disillusioned, frustrated and angry but of course disappointed when they got to power and were comprehensively rejected in 2015.

    The Conservatives got their come uppance in 2024 (and 1997) while Labour have lost power in 1979 and 2010.

    Yet none of them has gone - all are still here.

    If Reform win in 2028/9 and disappoint and lose power in 2033/4, will they fold up their tents and disappear back into obscurity? I suspect not - their brand of nationalist, anti-immigrant, socially conservative politics has a niche which I suspect none of the other parties can fully replace.

    It may well be we are entering a prolonged period of political instability and electoral volatility.

    Reform are an existential threat to stable politics - not because of who they are but because they have captured the Broken Britain zeitgeist which has been building for years but dismissed by mainstream parties. What really makes them a threat to stability is their own inability:

    1) Reform aren't a coherent political group. Most of their supporters seem unaware that Reforms policies will fuck them harder than the failed politics they are protesting against. The disconnect between the flag shaggers and the capitalist screw the workers subsets will become evident as and when Reform actually gain power in places. Labour and the Tories have both been on the receiving end of voter rage when they fail. Reform will try and deflect but so dod Labour and the Tories...

    2) Reform are the cult of Farage. He ejects and expels anyone who forgets their place and that process is already ongoing. We already have the Advance UK schism and there inevitably will be more before the election. With the hard right engaged in a race to the bottom on policy, the schisms only force ever harder policies which creates more tension and more schisms.

    What is needed is for a mainstream party to actually accept the country is broken and engage in political rebuilding. We need the new Beveridge Report.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,698

    Carnyx said:

    boulay said:

    Thoughts and non-ecumenical prayers for a particular community in Glasgow.

    BBC Breakfast
    @BBCBreakfast
    1h
    'It's not since 1534 that a British monarch will have prayed next to a Catholic Pope'
    Mark Lowen spoke to #BBCBreakfast from Vatican City where King Charles will take part in a service with Pope Leo, the first time this will have happened since the Church of England split from the Catholic Church

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/articles/

    They keep trotting out the line about it being the first time an English King has prayed with pope since 1534 as if it’s something that used to happen all the time but I can’t find any English ruler who has prayed with a Pope anyway. I think one Scots king did.
    Alfred went to Rome didn't he?

    Two Kings of Scots - Macbeth and James VIII. Admittedly debated at the time.
    Yes, but he wasn't king at the time.
    Also was he really King of England rather than King of Wessex?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,372
    edited 8:17AM
    Sandpit said:

    Fascinating Tesla Earnings Call overnight.

    Musk is a moron. He is All In on AI and autonomy. To be fair to xAI (which is X, not Tesla) they went from Zero to leading edge in a couple of years. But on vehicles? Even their CFO said that fleetwide takeup of Full Self Driving is 12%. That isn't helped by Tesla selling a lot of vehicles incapable of FSD - Europe, Japan, older vehicles. But even with cars capable of running it takeup is c. 20%. Why? Because people like to drive.

    So what is the big plan? A fleet of wheeled robots which will put Uber et al out of business. And then Optimus robots which supposedly can replace surgeons and Elon describes as a "robot army"

    Elon Musk - the man calling for the violent overthrow of governments like here in the UK - thinks these governments will license him to sell a "robot army". Which will utterly destroy jobs and crash economies. If the likes of him want to start talking about UBI then maybe, but they never do.

    Just build cars man. The best selling car in the world which is also the safest car ever tested. Which makes a GM profit. Why on earth would you not want to out-think and out-compete legacy dinosaur manufacturers who make serious negative GM on their EVs and keep going bankrupt?

    The self-driving cars are only useful once they are allowed to drive empty and/or pick you up from the pub.

    Self-driving where the liability is on the driver to stay alert and take over when it goes bong, is the worst of all worlds.

    It’s probably a couple of years away, but it’s been a couple of years away for the best part of a decade so far.

    Tesla Q3 revenue up from $25.2bn to $28.1bn year-on-year is a pretty good effort in today’s car market.
    I might be inclined to go nuclear and simply exclude Tesla from doing business here, as being owned by a poisonous individual who has tried to manipulate this country, and as a business which has a record of not following required standards in various places.

    Unless (taking a more new Labour type tactical regulation angle) there are hardware blocks on on-the-fly changes to how the vehicles operate.

    With Musk we need to learn lessons from what happened with other (Russian etc) oligarchs.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 67,987

    My predictions:

    Reform > Plaid > Labour

    Newly elected fuker becomes locally very unpopular very quickly when people realise they are not getting a moon on a stick. Fukers turn nasty.

    Use the unpopularity of elected fukers as the political weather vane. They're making an embarrassment of themselves in places like Kent, and there is a lot more to come.

    Why would one elected Senedd member become unpopular? They are not going to be in a position to offer a moon on a stick as the Welsh government will remain Labour. The new Senedd member will be freely able to snipe from the sidelines
    Good morning

    As you say one Reform member is not going to change anything, but what should worry labour is that it is very likely many Reform candidates will be elected to the Senedd next May, as well as Plaid, posing the problem of who actually governs Wales in the next Senedd
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 31,241
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT. Tommy Robinson meets Fleur Hassan-Nahoum in Israel. What a couple!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqDPuJbU2qU

    This man is more dangerous than Farage. There's an air of authenticity about him that Farage doesn't have.

    Who knew Luton was like Gaza?
    Our grandfather's and great-grandfather's laid down their lives to ensure our nation was not run by someone like Stephen Yaxley-Lennon. If we start to consider voting for the b******s, was it worth their while?
    He's poision and he's a racist but this is the first time I've listened to him for more than half a minute and if Farage has an appeal which I've never understood then I can see Yaxley-Lennon having an even greater one. There's a crude authenticity to him which Farage in all his guises has never had. If we are heading in that direction heaven help us.
    SYL is a master propagandist and an excellent actor. He is growing in stature not because he is sane, but because he scripts and shapes propaganda to exploit the fears and paranoias of so many people.

    Do have to laugh though at your description of him as having a "crude authenticity". I know exactly what you mean! But there is nothing at all authentic about the "Tommy Robinson" persona.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,790
    boulay said:

    Carnyx said:

    boulay said:

    Thoughts and non-ecumenical prayers for a particular community in Glasgow.

    BBC Breakfast
    @BBCBreakfast
    1h
    'It's not since 1534 that a British monarch will have prayed next to a Catholic Pope'
    Mark Lowen spoke to #BBCBreakfast from Vatican City where King Charles will take part in a service with Pope Leo, the first time this will have happened since the Church of England split from the Catholic Church

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/articles/

    They keep trotting out the line about it being the first time an English King has prayed with pope since 1534 as if it’s something that used to happen all the time but I can’t find any English ruler who has prayed with a Pope anyway. I think one Scots king did.
    Alfred went to Rome didn't he?

    Two Kings of Scots - Macbeth and James VIII. Admittedly debated at the time.
    Yes, but he wasn't king at the time.
    Also was he really King of England rather than King of Wessex?
    King Hywel the Good went on pilgrimage to Rome, and there was a Pope Leo at the time. I fear he was less virtuous than his modern namesake. This was at the height of the Roman pornocracy.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,790
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    boulay said:

    Thoughts and non-ecumenical prayers for a particular community in Glasgow.

    BBC Breakfast
    @BBCBreakfast
    1h
    'It's not since 1534 that a British monarch will have prayed next to a Catholic Pope'
    Mark Lowen spoke to #BBCBreakfast from Vatican City where King Charles will take part in a service with Pope Leo, the first time this will have happened since the Church of England split from the Catholic Church

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/articles/

    They keep trotting out the line about it being the first time an English King has prayed with pope since 1534 as if it’s something that used to happen all the time but I can’t find any English ruler who has prayed with a Pope anyway. I think one Scots king did.
    Alfred went to Rome didn't he?

    Two Kings of Scots - Macbeth and James VIII. Admittedly debated at the time.
    Yes, but he wasn't king at the time.
    Thanks, long time since I read the relevant Alfred Duggen novel!
    Never read that, but Pollard's biography of Alfred has him going there when he's a pretty young boy (I think, it's also been a while).
    The Duggan historical novels went out of print and are hard to get nowadays, which is a shame I think. Surprised they haven't been reprinted by people such as OUP and Red Fox, whence I am currently revisiting my childhood reading in the form of Sutcliffe and Treece (and filling in the ones I missed at the time).
    Sword at Sunset, by Rosemary Sutcliffe, is an outstanding novel about Arthur.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,384
    boulay said:

    Thoughts and non-ecumenical prayers for a particular community in Glasgow.

    BBC Breakfast
    @BBCBreakfast
    1h
    'It's not since 1534 that a British monarch will have prayed next to a Catholic Pope'
    Mark Lowen spoke to #BBCBreakfast from Vatican City where King Charles will take part in a service with Pope Leo, the first time this will have happened since the Church of England split from the Catholic Church

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/articles/

    They keep trotting out the line about it being the first time an English King has prayed with pope since 1534 as if it’s something that used to happen all the time but I can’t find any English ruler who has prayed with a Pope anyway. I think one Scots king did.
    It's a bit odd, as they don't say who the last one was.

    It's one of those papal factoids that don't stand up to scrutiny. Like the last one was the first non-European pope. Er, no he wasn't, and indeed the man usually regarded as the first pope was fairly obviously born in Asia.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,167
    Funnily enough, I have been thinking Caerphilly lately, but I discovered it's both quite a rarity in the shops nowadays and very expensive when you find it.

    No help to those of you placing bets, but it is on topic.

    Good morning, everybody.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,690
    boulay said:

    Carnyx said:

    boulay said:

    Thoughts and non-ecumenical prayers for a particular community in Glasgow.

    BBC Breakfast
    @BBCBreakfast
    1h
    'It's not since 1534 that a British monarch will have prayed next to a Catholic Pope'
    Mark Lowen spoke to #BBCBreakfast from Vatican City where King Charles will take part in a service with Pope Leo, the first time this will have happened since the Church of England split from the Catholic Church

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/articles/

    They keep trotting out the line about it being the first time an English King has prayed with pope since 1534 as if it’s something that used to happen all the time but I can’t find any English ruler who has prayed with a Pope anyway. I think one Scots king did.
    Alfred went to Rome didn't he?

    Two Kings of Scots - Macbeth and James VIII. Admittedly debated at the time.
    Yes, but he wasn't king at the time.
    Also was he really King of England rather than King of Wessex?
    He had an aspiration to be King of England, but I think he only went as far as styling himself the King of the English.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,372
    A very interesting Trump legal case.

    Melania (motivated, he has said, by Trump) threatened Michael Wolff (Trump biographer, Epstein biographer with a lot of research material still to come out) with a $1bn lawsuit if he doesn't withdraw and apologise yadda yadda yadda.

    He's moved first by asking for a Declaratory Judgement that any case would be baseless, which could pull all the relevant people into testifying on oath if called into court. He's using anti-SLAPP law.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNQJJszPxV8
    "Melania Trump BLINDSIDED by NEW LAWSUIT over EPSTEIN?!?"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/michael-wolff-melania-trump-epstein-lawsuit-b2850417.html
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,126

    stodge said:

    Thinking more long term, I wonder if Reform are here to stay.

    The LDs were, in their time, the repository of protest votes from the disillusioned, frustrated and angry but of course disappointed when they got to power and were comprehensively rejected in 2015.

    The Conservatives got their come uppance in 2024 (and 1997) while Labour have lost power in 1979 and 2010.

    Yet none of them has gone - all are still here.

    If Reform win in 2028/9 and disappoint and lose power in 2033/4, will they fold up their tents and disappear back into obscurity? I suspect not - their brand of nationalist, anti-immigrant, socially conservative politics has a niche which I suspect none of the other parties can fully replace.

    It may well be we are entering a prolonged period of political instability and electoral volatility.

    Reform are an existential threat to stable politics - not because of who they are but because they have captured the Broken Britain zeitgeist which has been building for years but dismissed by mainstream parties. What really makes them a threat to stability is their own inability:

    1) Reform aren't a coherent political group. Most of their supporters seem unaware that Reforms policies will fuck them harder than the failed politics they are protesting against. The disconnect between the flag shaggers and the capitalist screw the workers subsets will become evident as and when Reform actually gain power in places. Labour and the Tories have both been on the receiving end of voter rage when they fail. Reform will try and deflect but so dod Labour and the Tories...

    2) Reform are the cult of Farage. He ejects and expels anyone who forgets their place and that process is already ongoing. We already have the Advance UK schism and there inevitably will be more before the election. With the hard right engaged in a race to the bottom on policy, the schisms only force ever harder policies which creates more tension and more schisms.

    What is needed is for a mainstream party to actually accept the country is broken and engage in political rebuilding. We need the new Beveridge Report.
    The problem is that the underlying cause of the country's economic malaise - a rapidly ageing population - has no easy remedy. Hence the desperate casting around for scapegoats and displacement activity, and the inability of mainstream politicias to even articulate the problem to voters. It's the same problem everywhere, if that is any consolation (which it shouldn't be, as that makes it even harder to fix).
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,701

    Sandpit said:

    Fascinating Tesla Earnings Call overnight.

    Musk is a moron. He is All In on AI and autonomy. To be fair to xAI (which is X, not Tesla) they went from Zero to leading edge in a couple of years. But on vehicles? Even their CFO said that fleetwide takeup of Full Self Driving is 12%. That isn't helped by Tesla selling a lot of vehicles incapable of FSD - Europe, Japan, older vehicles. But even with cars capable of running it takeup is c. 20%. Why? Because people like to drive.

    So what is the big plan? A fleet of wheeled robots which will put Uber et al out of business. And then Optimus robots which supposedly can replace surgeons and Elon describes as a "robot army"

    Elon Musk - the man calling for the violent overthrow of governments like here in the UK - thinks these governments will license him to sell a "robot army". Which will utterly destroy jobs and crash economies. If the likes of him want to start talking about UBI then maybe, but they never do.

    Just build cars man. The best selling car in the world which is also the safest car ever tested. Which makes a GM profit. Why on earth would you not want to out-think and out-compete legacy dinosaur manufacturers who make serious negative GM on their EVs and keep going bankrupt?

    The self-driving cars are only useful once they are allowed to drive empty and/or pick you up from the pub.

    Self-driving where the liability is on the driver to stay alert and take over when it goes bong, is the worst of all worlds.

    It’s probably a couple of years away, but it’s been a couple of years away for the best part of a decade so far.

    Tesla Q3 revenue up from $25.2bn to $28.1bn year-on-year is a pretty good effort in today’s car market.
    Waymo et al are already on the road in the US. They are coming here.

    Buying your own self driving car is just the next step.
    Buying a personal Waymo at the moment would cost about $200k, plus the subscription to the call center for helping when it gets stuck, and it can only go on roads it’s mapped in a small area.

    I can have an S-Class and a driver for the same money.

    But yes each iteration gets better and cheaper. It’s coming, just not quite there yet.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,307
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    boulay said:

    Thoughts and non-ecumenical prayers for a particular community in Glasgow.

    BBC Breakfast
    @BBCBreakfast
    1h
    'It's not since 1534 that a British monarch will have prayed next to a Catholic Pope'
    Mark Lowen spoke to #BBCBreakfast from Vatican City where King Charles will take part in a service with Pope Leo, the first time this will have happened since the Church of England split from the Catholic Church

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/articles/

    They keep trotting out the line about it being the first time an English King has prayed with pope since 1534 as if it’s something that used to happen all the time but I can’t find any English ruler who has prayed with a Pope anyway. I think one Scots king did.
    Alfred went to Rome didn't he?

    Two Kings of Scots - Macbeth and James VIII. Admittedly debated at the time.
    Yes, but he wasn't king at the time.
    Thanks, long time since I read the relevant Alfred Duggen novel!
    Never read that, but Pollard's biography of Alfred has him going there when he's a pretty young boy (I think, it's also been a while).
    The Duggan historical novels went out of print and are hard to get nowadays, which is a shame I think. Surprised they haven't been reprinted by people such as OUP and Red Fox, whence I am currently revisiting my childhood reading in the form of Sutcliffe and Treece (and filling in the ones I missed at the time).
    Anson Street Press or a similar publisher might do it. They print low-volume books, generic covers, of novels that are out-of-copyright or easy to print. To my delight they appear to have the whole of the Lensman series.
  • CumberlandGapCumberlandGap Posts: 46
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT. Tommy Robinson meets Fleur Hassan-Nahoum in Israel. What a couple!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqDPuJbU2qU

    This man is more dangerous than Farage. There's an air of authenticity about him that Farage doesn't have.

    Who knew Luton was like Gaza?
    Our grandfather's and great-grandfather's laid down their lives to ensure our nation was not run by someone like Stephen Yaxley-Lennon. If we start to consider voting for the b******s, was it worth their while?
    He's poision and he's a racist but this is the first time I've listened to him for more than half a minute and if Farage has an appeal which I've never understood then I can see Yaxley-Lennon having an even greater one. There's a crude authenticity to him which Farage in all his guises has never had. If we are heading in that direction heaven help us.
    It hasnt helped by the way he has been treated. It's like Trump in the sense that what he has done is bad enough, but when you embellish (and in some ways persecute) it gives him the ability to seed doubt on the other stuff. Much of what he is saying is uncomfortable, and much of it is true (mixed in with lies, as the best ones are). The things that he said were happening, which the organs of the British state routinely and emphatically said werent, were happening, and they knew they were happening. It allows him to add doubt to the other things they say.

    Remember though he isnt the same demographic pitch as Reform. When he has stood for election, even under PR he got derisory votes, despite his band wagon popping up in many places.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 3,237

    My predictions:

    Reform > Plaid > Labour

    Newly elected fuker becomes locally very unpopular very quickly when people realise they are not getting a moon on a stick. Fukers turn nasty.

    Use the unpopularity of elected fukers as the political weather vane. They're making an embarrassment of themselves in places like Kent, and there is a lot more to come.

    Why would one elected Senedd member become unpopular? They are not going to be in a position to offer a moon on a stick as the Welsh government will remain Labour. The new Senedd member will be freely able to snipe from the sidelines
    Good morning

    As you say one Reform member is not going to change anything, but what should worry labour is that it is very likely many Reform candidates will be elected to the Senedd next May, as well as Plaid, posing the problem of who actually governs Wales in the next Senedd
    The only possible governing combinations are, surely, Plaid/Labour or Reform/Tory and the former will presumably return more members to the Senedd. So seems nailed on.

    If it is a hung parliament due to the LibDems or Greens getting a few then, again, it's going to be a Plaid FM and Labour DFM. Inconceivable that LibDems or Greens would touch Reform.

    Then again, my knowledge of Welsh politics is less than profound.
  • CumberlandGapCumberlandGap Posts: 46
    edited 8:35AM

    On the immigration law ghastliness

    - a British Passport may help but isn’t 100% solid. Why?
    - The Home Sec. can withdraw citizenship from any “dual national”
    - From the Begum case, a dual national is someone who *is eligible* for another passport
    - Renouncing another nationality might well not be enough. Most countries that allow renunciation allow reacquiring citizenship.
    - So a future Home Sec. issues an order cancelling the citizenship of x hundred thousand people in one go.

    In Ancient Athens, the Thirty Tyrants used the cancellation of citizenship to get round a law on trials for citizens.

    It’s all been done before

    As a Jewish person theoretically eligible for an Israeli passport this precedent has always been a little worrying.
    History tells us that things done to the “undesirables” at breakfast are done to the Jews by mid-morning, to blacks at lunchtime and everyone else by afternoon tea.

    “Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!”
    Deporting people who have a legal right to be here has been done to black people multiple times already - hence the Windrush scandal.
    They had no right to be here. Many just got here, and nobody bothered to enforce immigration status. Natural justice of course means they to deport after such a long time is not really fair.

    But lets focus on the illegals. There are millions. Deport every last one of them. Ignore the whingers, just do it. And as mentioned before, most people wont be horrified about deporting illegals, but more so that we werent deporting them anyway.

    Not deporting people who have no right to be here is the extreme position.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,701
    edited 8:33AM
    MattW said:

    A very interesting Trump legal case.

    Melania (motivated, he has said, by Trump) threatened Michael Wolff (Trump biographer, Epstein biographer with a lot of research material still to come out) with a $1bn lawsuit if he doesn't withdraw and apologise yadda yadda yadda.

    He's moved first by asking for a Declaratory Judgement that any case would be baseless, which could pull all the relevant people into testifying on oath if called into court. He's using anti-SLAPP law.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNQJJszPxV8
    "Melania Trump BLINDSIDED by NEW LAWSUIT over EPSTEIN?!?"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/michael-wolff-melania-trump-epstein-lawsuit-b2850417.html

    Wolff’s central allegation was that it was Epstein who first introduced Melania to Donald, which is provably false and defamatory according to the First Lady.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,372

    boulay said:

    Thoughts and non-ecumenical prayers for a particular community in Glasgow.

    BBC Breakfast
    @BBCBreakfast
    1h
    'It's not since 1534 that a British monarch will have prayed next to a Catholic Pope'
    Mark Lowen spoke to #BBCBreakfast from Vatican City where King Charles will take part in a service with Pope Leo, the first time this will have happened since the Church of England split from the Catholic Church

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/articles/

    They keep trotting out the line about it being the first time an English King has prayed with pope since 1534 as if it’s something that used to happen all the time but I can’t find any English ruler who has prayed with a Pope anyway. I think one Scots king did.
    It's a bit odd, as they don't say who the last one was.

    It's one of those papal factoids that don't stand up to scrutiny. Like the last one was the first non-European pope. Er, no he wasn't, and indeed the man usually regarded as the first pope was fairly obviously born in Asia.
    I agree. It's presumably about formal occasions.

    I think it unlikely that over a number of private meetings between about 1950 and 2020 QEII did not pray with the Pope - though it may have been a doxology or "grace", or a Blessing, or similar.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,904

    Sandpit said:

    Fascinating Tesla Earnings Call overnight.

    Musk is a moron. He is All In on AI and autonomy. To be fair to xAI (which is X, not Tesla) they went from Zero to leading edge in a couple of years. But on vehicles? Even their CFO said that fleetwide takeup of Full Self Driving is 12%. That isn't helped by Tesla selling a lot of vehicles incapable of FSD - Europe, Japan, older vehicles. But even with cars capable of running it takeup is c. 20%. Why? Because people like to drive.

    So what is the big plan? A fleet of wheeled robots which will put Uber et al out of business. And then Optimus robots which supposedly can replace surgeons and Elon describes as a "robot army"

    Elon Musk - the man calling for the violent overthrow of governments like here in the UK - thinks these governments will license him to sell a "robot army". Which will utterly destroy jobs and crash economies. If the likes of him want to start talking about UBI then maybe, but they never do.

    Just build cars man. The best selling car in the world which is also the safest car ever tested. Which makes a GM profit. Why on earth would you not want to out-think and out-compete legacy dinosaur manufacturers who make serious negative GM on their EVs and keep going bankrupt?

    The self-driving cars are only useful once they are allowed to drive empty and/or pick you up from the pub.

    Self-driving where the liability is on the driver to stay alert and take over when it goes bong, is the worst of all worlds.

    It’s probably a couple of years away, but it’s been a couple of years away for the best part of a decade so far.
    Here's the problem. Getting UBER licensed has taken effort, because it puts cab drivers out of a job. Now Muskybaby wants to destroy the taxi industry as a whole. If you are a European government or even a city, why would you license that?

    And the "robot army" (and he used those exact words to describe scaled production of Optimus). Which can take jobs in vast numbers. The same - why would you license it?

    This is the reverse industrial revolution. People complained then that the machines would take their jobs, but for much of the time the expansion in economic output meant more jobs. AI and Robotics means the literal decimation of jobs, likely many times over. Unless governments are prepared to give money to the newly unemployed the rollout of these technologies will be a socioeconomic disaster...
    A classic Luddite argument, mixed with economically illiterate socialism.

    If the government really wants to help people keep working, it should keep them in jobs, by say reducing payroll taxes and taxes on corporate profits, rather than increasing them. It should also cut benefits that subsidise idleness, from fake incapacity to bullshit university courses or preventing asylum seekers from working. That will reduce the artificial incentive to automate. If we do that, we'd have a labour market that'd be robust for years or decades to come.

    Blaming natural technological progress for a decimation of jobs lets the true culprit, who sits in Number 11 Downing Street, off the hook much too easily.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,031
    boulay said:

    Carnyx said:

    boulay said:

    Thoughts and non-ecumenical prayers for a particular community in Glasgow.

    BBC Breakfast
    @BBCBreakfast
    1h
    'It's not since 1534 that a British monarch will have prayed next to a Catholic Pope'
    Mark Lowen spoke to #BBCBreakfast from Vatican City where King Charles will take part in a service with Pope Leo, the first time this will have happened since the Church of England split from the Catholic Church

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/articles/

    They keep trotting out the line about it being the first time an English King has prayed with pope since 1534 as if it’s something that used to happen all the time but I can’t find any English ruler who has prayed with a Pope anyway. I think one Scots king did.
    Alfred went to Rome didn't he?

    Two Kings of Scots - Macbeth and James VIII. Admittedly debated at the time.
    Yes, but he wasn't king at the time.
    Also was he really King of England rather than King of Wessex?
    I'd need to check but I think by the end Alfred styled himself as Rex Angul-Saxonum[sp], King of the Anglo-Saxons. I'm inclined to agree with you, though, that the first king of England was the now much-overlooked Aethelstan.
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