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This is why Find Out Now polls are such outliers – politicalbetting.com

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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,832
    edited October 17
    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    A solid series of by election results in the new "heartland" of Surrey for the LDs with gains at both County and District/Borough level.

    The County Council now has 39 Conservative and 42 non-Conservative Councillors and it will be interesting to see, IF the elections for the Shadow Authorities due to take place next year are postponed a year, whether some of the remaining County Councillors will fancy serving up to a seven year term.

    That's how to suspend democracy - not through authoritarianism but reorganisation.

    I do wonder if the UK is heading towards a French type election, which pits the Liberal Democrats against Reform.
    I don’t think Reform would win a landslide on 33%. I think the left wing vote would converge on either Labour or the Lib Dem’s (maybe even the Greens).

    But, if the polling is close between Reform v main left wing party, then the Conservatives would be squeezed further. And, once Reform hit 25%+, their vote is quite efficiently distributed.
    If Reform manages to squeeze the Conservatives to oblivion, there is no reason why they can't get close to 40%, in which case they will win the next election, even if the LabLDGreen vote is exceptionally efficient.

    On the other hand, if the Conservatives stage some kind of come back (maybe getting back in the low-20s, while Reform comes back into the high 20s), then almost any result is possible.
    Not necessarily even then. In the Canadian election in April, their Conservatives (who are basically a merged party of their Reform and most rump Tories) got 41% under the leadership of populist right Poilievre but still lost due to massive tactical voting for centrist Carney's Liberals from the NDP and Green voters so the Liberals got 43%. Bear in mind too some current UK Conservative voters would vote LD over Reform, especially in London, the South and Scotland.

    Though yes if say a Cleverly led Tories won back most 2024 Conservative voters that is the likeliest route to a hung parliament where Reform may not even win most seats
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,329
    The (football policing) unit also says that if the government wants to treat football matches as "events of national significance", it needs to change the law, so that there is accountability with people making decisions.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,908
    rcs1000 said:

    I see one of RFK's lieutenants has written a paper on how the Department of Health and Public Services needs to investigate chemtrails.

    When this is over, the investigation should be into the egregious waste of money that happens when morons take control.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,213
    rcs1000 said:

    boulay said:



    rcs1000 said:

    FPT: "Out of curiosity, by what mechanism is it proposed to decarbonise shipping? "

    There are some projects looking to install CO2 capture on ships.

    Other approach is to use ammonia as a carbon-free fuel.

    I quite like the modern sails idea - see the Pyxis Ocean, whose sails were developed by a British company.
    I should probably research it myself but likely someone on here knows already but I would love to know how useful the modern airships being developed could be for cargo transport.

    I clearly have no idea how much weight they can shift, range, speed and susceptibility to bad weather but I have images of “sky trains” of them moving along below plane flight altitudes with perhaps one manned and the rest linked to it by satellite (if indeed all can’t be unmanned) delivering cargo that’s not “urgent”.

    Airships are not a viable transport method for cargo shipping. They can carry only limited amounts. They are very slow. And if the wind is against you, they are incredibly inefficient. (Or indeed, don't even work at all.)
    Isn't there (theoretically at least) quite a large niche for them between ocean shipping and air transport ?

    They can't carry as much as ships, but can carry a LOT more than airplanes. And while the (approximate) costs are very similar to shipping, they're also three to four times the speed, and don't require the same level of dedicated port infrastructure.

    And as an aside, would be the easiest form of air transport to decarbonise, given the huge surface area of a dirigible, and the way in which solar panels are getting lighter and more flexible.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,587
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Matt Goodwin
    @GoodwinMJ

    Poland's president has just signed a new law introducing zero personal income tax for parents raising at least two children. At least somebody in Europe (alongside the Hungarians) is thinking about how to tackle our demographic crisis"

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1979182947946127507

    Well, I might point out that the French system - where family members' tax allowances are pooled - has exactly the same effect.

    However, I would also point out that pro-natal policies do not have a particular record of success. Singapore probably has the most aggressive pro-natal policies in the world: free childcare, subsidised housing, tax rebates, lots of paid leave.

    Their TFR is under 1.
    I think the MAGA answer is trending towards repealing the 19th amendment, and other such moves.

    I guess the plus side is that it might see a number of cute young American women attempt to make their way to Europe. Permanently.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,633
    rcs1000 said:

    boulay said:



    rcs1000 said:

    FPT: "Out of curiosity, by what mechanism is it proposed to decarbonise shipping? "

    There are some projects looking to install CO2 capture on ships.

    Other approach is to use ammonia as a carbon-free fuel.

    I quite like the modern sails idea - see the Pyxis Ocean, whose sails were developed by a British company.
    I should probably research it myself but likely someone on here knows already but I would love to know how useful the modern airships being developed could be for cargo transport.

    I clearly have no idea how much weight they can shift, range, speed and susceptibility to bad weather but I have images of “sky trains” of them moving along below plane flight altitudes with perhaps one manned and the rest linked to it by satellite (if indeed all can’t be unmanned) delivering cargo that’s not “urgent”.

    Airships are not a viable transport method for cargo shipping. They can carry only limited amounts. They are very slow. And if the wind is against you, they are incredibly inefficient. (Or indeed, don't even work at all.)
    Airships always crash.

    The history of airships is crashes. The fires from hydrogen are a thing, but the crashes happen, even with helium.

    This is obvious when you co outside with a balloon. On a calm day, fine. In a slight breeze, try walking home with some party balloons.

    Airships have a vast surface area. This makes them playings of the wind. They cannot possibly carry enough engine power to overcome this.
  • eekeek Posts: 31,529

    The (football policing) unit also says that if the government wants to treat football matches as "events of national significance", it needs to change the law, so that there is accountability with people making decisions.

    I'm sorry but if you can't police a football match then Aston Villa need to close or play all their matches elsewhere...
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,770

    Perhaps this has already been noticed, so forgive the repetition if it is, but yesterday in Surrey there were six by-elections. The Lib Dems won all six (which is perhaps to be expected) but the surprise for me is that, on average, the Conservatives polled 15%. That's got to be a cause for concern in Conservative Party HQ. They really ought to be getting a lot more than 15% in Surrey.

    I’ve made my peace that for the next four years elections for the Tories including the general election will be like the first day of the Battle of the Somme.
    It will be until they change Kemi. It's not too late to realise the damage done by Boris who made it so uncomfortable for some, that they went off and made some money instead of being lied to every day. Having a leader as a liar is not that bad, if you are making shedloads of cash.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,633
    eek said:

    The (football policing) unit also says that if the government wants to treat football matches as "events of national significance", it needs to change the law, so that there is accountability with people making decisions.

    I'm sorry but if you can't police a football match then Aston Villa need to close or play all their matches elsewhere...
    "it needs to change the law, so that there is accountability with people making decisions."

    That is quite funny as it reads - is that their words?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,386
    edited October 17
    What an awful brother the King is.

    King Charles considers removing Prince Andrew’s Duke of York title

    Relations between the brothers are said to be at tipping point after scandals involving Jeffrey Epstein and alleged spying by China


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/royal-family/article/king-charles-prince-andrew-duke-york-title-news-hlcgmjlwb
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,213
    Not only is the DHS demonstrably lying - in a manner which is easily documented - about the violence they claim justifies the stationing of troops in cities governed by Democrats - not a small amount of the actual criminal violence that is happening seems to be perpetrated by ICE.

    An incredible @AFPFactCheck analysis of this ("Chicago Chaos") video finds that the vast majority of clips are from places other than Chicago — and that the video includes clips from Biden-era ICE HSI operations from 2024 and CBP drug busts from San Diego and Nogales from 2023.
    https://x.com/ReichlinMelnick/status/1978895827293680075

    ICE repeatedly rammed into & disabled a truck driven by a community volunteer—then arrest the U.S. citizen victim.
    He was first rushed to hospital—and then locked up in downtown LA detention center.
    `Leo Martinez was targeted by agents as a well-known volunteer with VC Defensa —an organization that legally films immigration enforcement efforts.
    An ICE statement claims that Leo Martinez caused the accident—but the only video currently made public clearly shows the ICE agents crashing into his car first.
    The incident occurred on South A Street in Oxnard, California.

    https://x.com/LongTimeHistory/status/1978963274235548052
  • Battlebus said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    A solid series of by election results in the new "heartland" of Surrey for the LDs with gains at both County and District/Borough level.

    The County Council now has 39 Conservative and 42 non-Conservative Councillors and it will be interesting to see, IF the elections for the Shadow Authorities due to take place next year are postponed a year, whether some of the remaining County Councillors will fancy serving up to a seven year term.

    That's how to suspend democracy - not through authoritarianism but reorganisation.

    I do wonder if the UK is heading towards a French type election, which pits the Liberal Democrats against Reform.
    They don't seem to overlap. Reform are/have found themselves in Red Wall territory mainly because the Conservatives 'one-nation' Tories have been gutted from the party by Boris. LibDems have the largest share of the leafy shires constituencies. How Reform can pivot from the left behind to bank managers (see previous quote) will be difficult especially since they are a one-man band.

    Labour have a spread throughout the spectrum from RW to LS but it's definitely weaker at the RW end and stronger at the LS end. Kemi's chasing the Reform rhetoric will simply reinforce the damage done by Boris. Have I mentioned she's a dud*.

    * It would be more appropriate to say she was the least-worst option for LOTO though that penny hasn't dropped yet. She has an unusually high opinion of her own abilities.
    As a conservative I am content that Badenoch is the best leader for the party and she had an excellent conference and is appearing more in the media
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,190
    Well, I've never done the postcode lottery and compared to other PB posters who may well do so, they seem to be more on the money than this Centrist, left leaning, Dad. I appear to be very much on the margins of current political discourse, by the looks of the recently expired thread, virulent racism is where the kids are at.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,768

    What an awful brother the King is.

    King Charles considers removing Prince Andrew’s Duke of York title

    Relations between the brothers are said to be at tipping point after scandals involving Jeffrey Epstein and alleged spying by China


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/royal-family/article/king-charles-prince-andrew-duke-york-title-news-hlcgmjlwb

    I think that Andrew should be extradited to the USA. Let him live out his days in Club Fed.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,999
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    boulay said:



    rcs1000 said:

    FPT: "Out of curiosity, by what mechanism is it proposed to decarbonise shipping? "

    There are some projects looking to install CO2 capture on ships.

    Other approach is to use ammonia as a carbon-free fuel.

    I quite like the modern sails idea - see the Pyxis Ocean, whose sails were developed by a British company.
    I should probably research it myself but likely someone on here knows already but I would love to know how useful the modern airships being developed could be for cargo transport.

    I clearly have no idea how much weight they can shift, range, speed and susceptibility to bad weather but I have images of “sky trains” of them moving along below plane flight altitudes with perhaps one manned and the rest linked to it by satellite (if indeed all can’t be unmanned) delivering cargo that’s not “urgent”.

    Airships are not a viable transport method for cargo shipping. They can carry only limited amounts. They are very slow. And if the wind is against you, they are incredibly inefficient. (Or indeed, don't even work at all.)
    Isn't there (theoretically at least) quite a large niche for them between ocean shipping and air transport ?

    They can't carry as much as ships, but can carry a LOT more than airplanes. And while the (approximate) costs are very similar to shipping, they're also three to four times the speed, and don't require the same level of dedicated port infrastructure.

    And as an aside, would be the easiest form of air transport to decarbonise, given the huge surface area of a dirigible, and the way in which solar panels are getting lighter and more flexible.
    The problem here is mathematics.

    A typical 40 foot container, loaded, is going to weigh around 30 metric tonnes. (Let's keep the numbers simple.)

    That's just a single forty foot container.

    Given the buoyancy of helium compared to air, that requires (at the very least and before fuel, engines, etc) 28,700 cubic meters of helium.

    You rapidly run into the problem with airships that you need a masive volume of helium, which means a massive structure to hold it, which requires ever more powerful engines and more fuel.

    The numbers simply don't work beyond -possibly- relatively short trips in parts of the world where there is no wind and the roads are bad.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,999
    Sean_F said:

    What an awful brother the King is.

    King Charles considers removing Prince Andrew’s Duke of York title

    Relations between the brothers are said to be at tipping point after scandals involving Jeffrey Epstein and alleged spying by China


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/royal-family/article/king-charles-prince-andrew-duke-york-title-news-hlcgmjlwb

    I think that Andrew should be extradited to the USA. Let him live out his days in Club Fed.
    I think the current US administration is very keen for no more Epstein trials.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,190
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    A solid series of by election results in the new "heartland" of Surrey for the LDs with gains at both County and District/Borough level.

    The County Council now has 39 Conservative and 42 non-Conservative Councillors and it will be interesting to see, IF the elections for the Shadow Authorities due to take place next year are postponed a year, whether some of the remaining County Councillors will fancy serving up to a seven year term.

    That's how to suspend democracy - not through authoritarianism but reorganisation.

    I do wonder if the UK is heading towards a French type election, which pits the Liberal Democrats against Reform.
    I don’t think Reform would win a landslide on 33%. I think the left wing vote would converge on either Labour or the Lib Dem’s (maybe even the Greens).

    But, if the polling is close between Reform v main left wing party, then the Conservatives would be squeezed further. And, once Reform hit 25%+, their vote is quite efficiently distributed.
    If Reform manages to squeeze the Conservatives to oblivion, there is no reason why they can't get close to 40%, in which case they will win the next election, even if the LabLDGreen vote is exceptionally efficient.

    On the other hand, if the Conservatives stage some kind of come back (maybe getting back in the low-20s, while Reform comes back into the high 20s), then almost any result is possible.
    Not necessarily even then. In the Canadian election in April, their Conservatives (who are basically a merged party of their Reform and most rump Tories) got 41% under the leadership of populist right Poilievre but still lost due to massive tactical voting for centrist Carney's Liberals from the NDP and Green voters so the Liberals got 43%. Bear in mind too some current UK Conservative voters would vote LD over Reform, especially in London, the South and Scotland.

    Though yes if say a Cleverly led Tories won back most 2024 Conservative voters that is the likeliest route to a hung parliament where Reform may not even win most seats
    I admire your optimism.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,768

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Matt Goodwin
    @GoodwinMJ

    Poland's president has just signed a new law introducing zero personal income tax for parents raising at least two children. At least somebody in Europe (alongside the Hungarians) is thinking about how to tackle our demographic crisis"

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1979182947946127507

    Well, I might point out that the French system - where family members' tax allowances are pooled - has exactly the same effect.

    However, I would also point out that pro-natal policies do not have a particular record of success. Singapore probably has the most aggressive pro-natal policies in the world: free childcare, subsidised housing, tax rebates, lots of paid leave.

    Their TFR is under 1.
    I think the MAGA answer is trending towards repealing the 19th amendment, and other such moves.

    I guess the plus side is that it might see a number of cute young American women attempt to make their way to Europe. Permanently.
    I imagine that the MAGA answer is to make wives and daughters the legal chattels of their husbands and fathers.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,893

    eek said:

    Another good way out is I read the executive summary but not the full report.

    You would make a great politician.....
    Mrs Thatcher said if she read every report in full she wouldn’t have any other time to do things as a minister/PM, Dave concurred.

    What you’re reliant on is a staff who know what to prioritise for you to know about.
    I suspect you don't actually have time to read the executive summary of all the reports - even they will need to be prioritised..
    I was told there was a MOD report that a 150 page executive summary.
    I can believe it. I remember when I joined a government department about 15 years ago they repeatedly produced Exec Sums of 40 pages. I caused extraordinary consternation by insisting that the Exec Sums should from then on fit on a single page (though I had to relax that to two as the house style seemed to be designed to waste as much space as possible).

    The other extraordinary feature of their document production was the incredible waste of resources that I've mentioned before in translating all the documents into Welsh. Of course we got zero requests or downloads for them. Yet another lesson in the huge waste of time and money that is political correctness. Unfortunately I couldn't sabotage that practice.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,768
    eek said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Well that explains it. People who do the 'postcode lottery' are going to be skewed towards Reform. Course they are. Knock 5 pts off to get a better estimate. That's what I'll be doing from now on anyway. Really useful header, thank you.

    I like the sound of your enthusiasm. Care to back it with some money?

    {Modifying the results of a "Rogue Pollster" has been the cause of the ruin of many a poor gambler}
    Yes you have to be careful. But that's what I'll be doing. 5 pts off Reform. No £ at this point though. Such volatile times.
    1) Rogue Pollsters are ones you disagree with
    2) I am finding absolutely no support for Labour among people I know - middle of the road or the hard core lefties. Especially noticeable is that in casual, non-politics obsessed conversation, every action of the Government is seen as a tired joke.
    3) Several acquaintances are going Reform, to my shock. And disgust.
    4) Council election results seem to show that Reform are doing very well - in places where Labour/Conservatives/Others used to dominate.

    To be clear. The current government is meeeeeeeeeeeeh. A Reform Government will be very, very bad in an active fashion. But this is about where I *bet* on things happening.
    If you believe current council by-elections, then the UK is heading for Ed Davey for Nigel Farage!
    Redcar had a Lib Dem MP from 2010 to 2015...
    Different times. Seats like Redcar won’t vote Lib Dem now, whereas the A3/M3 and A4/M4 corridors are now their heartland.

    Yet, go further East, in Kent and Eastern England, and the Lib Dem’s get little traction among professional/managerial voters.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,307
    It's remarkable that this story isn't much higher profile.
    But it happens so regularly. We just shrug our collective shoulders and move on. Middle Eastern nutter does Middle Eastern nutter thing, what you gonna do?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,190

    Battlebus said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    A solid series of by election results in the new "heartland" of Surrey for the LDs with gains at both County and District/Borough level.

    The County Council now has 39 Conservative and 42 non-Conservative Councillors and it will be interesting to see, IF the elections for the Shadow Authorities due to take place next year are postponed a year, whether some of the remaining County Councillors will fancy serving up to a seven year term.

    That's how to suspend democracy - not through authoritarianism but reorganisation.

    I do wonder if the UK is heading towards a French type election, which pits the Liberal Democrats against Reform.
    They don't seem to overlap. Reform are/have found themselves in Red Wall territory mainly because the Conservatives 'one-nation' Tories have been gutted from the party by Boris. LibDems have the largest share of the leafy shires constituencies. How Reform can pivot from the left behind to bank managers (see previous quote) will be difficult especially since they are a one-man band.

    Labour have a spread throughout the spectrum from RW to LS but it's definitely weaker at the RW end and stronger at the LS end. Kemi's chasing the Reform rhetoric will simply reinforce the damage done by Boris. Have I mentioned she's a dud*.

    * It would be more appropriate to say she was the least-worst option for LOTO though that penny hasn't dropped yet. She has an unusually high opinion of her own abilities.
    As a conservative I am content that Badenoch is the best leader for the party and she had an excellent conference and is appearing more in the media
    Her "excellent Conference" was mainly excellent because it has been talked up by loyalists like yourself. The fact it wasn't the anticipated clown show (much the same as Labour- no coughing, no letters falling off sign boards) it was deemed a win.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,307
    Sean_F said:

    eek said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Well that explains it. People who do the 'postcode lottery' are going to be skewed towards Reform. Course they are. Knock 5 pts off to get a better estimate. That's what I'll be doing from now on anyway. Really useful header, thank you.

    I like the sound of your enthusiasm. Care to back it with some money?

    {Modifying the results of a "Rogue Pollster" has been the cause of the ruin of many a poor gambler}
    Yes you have to be careful. But that's what I'll be doing. 5 pts off Reform. No £ at this point though. Such volatile times.
    1) Rogue Pollsters are ones you disagree with
    2) I am finding absolutely no support for Labour among people I know - middle of the road or the hard core lefties. Especially noticeable is that in casual, non-politics obsessed conversation, every action of the Government is seen as a tired joke.
    3) Several acquaintances are going Reform, to my shock. And disgust.
    4) Council election results seem to show that Reform are doing very well - in places where Labour/Conservatives/Others used to dominate.

    To be clear. The current government is meeeeeeeeeeeeh. A Reform Government will be very, very bad in an active fashion. But this is about where I *bet* on things happening.
    If you believe current council by-elections, then the UK is heading for Ed Davey for Nigel Farage!
    Redcar had a Lib Dem MP from 2010 to 2015...
    Different times. Seats like Redcar won’t vote Lib Dem now, whereas the A3/M3 and A4/M4 corridors are now their heartland.

    Yet, go further East, in Kent and Eastern England, and the Lib Dem’s get little traction among professional/managerial voters.
    Yes, that was when the LDs where the main recipients of the NOTA vote.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,633
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    boulay said:



    rcs1000 said:

    FPT: "Out of curiosity, by what mechanism is it proposed to decarbonise shipping? "

    There are some projects looking to install CO2 capture on ships.

    Other approach is to use ammonia as a carbon-free fuel.

    I quite like the modern sails idea - see the Pyxis Ocean, whose sails were developed by a British company.
    I should probably research it myself but likely someone on here knows already but I would love to know how useful the modern airships being developed could be for cargo transport.

    I clearly have no idea how much weight they can shift, range, speed and susceptibility to bad weather but I have images of “sky trains” of them moving along below plane flight altitudes with perhaps one manned and the rest linked to it by satellite (if indeed all can’t be unmanned) delivering cargo that’s not “urgent”.

    Airships are not a viable transport method for cargo shipping. They can carry only limited amounts. They are very slow. And if the wind is against you, they are incredibly inefficient. (Or indeed, don't even work at all.)
    Isn't there (theoretically at least) quite a large niche for them between ocean shipping and air transport ?

    They can't carry as much as ships, but can carry a LOT more than airplanes. And while the (approximate) costs are very similar to shipping, they're also three to four times the speed, and don't require the same level of dedicated port infrastructure.

    And as an aside, would be the easiest form of air transport to decarbonise, given the huge surface area of a dirigible, and the way in which solar panels are getting lighter and more flexible.
    The problem here is mathematics.

    A typical 40 foot container, loaded, is going to weigh around 30 metric tonnes. (Let's keep the numbers simple.)

    That's just a single forty foot container.

    Given the buoyancy of helium compared to air, that requires (at the very least and before fuel, engines, etc) 28,700 cubic meters of helium.

    You rapidly run into the problem with airships that you need a masive volume of helium, which means a massive structure to hold it, which requires ever more powerful engines and more fuel.

    The numbers simply don't work beyond -possibly- relatively short trips in parts of the world where there is no wind and the roads are bad.
    Actually, it scales the other way. The optimum size for airships, not considering handling, is as big as possible. The structural fraction decreases as the airship gets larger, up to at least 1500 feet long.

    This is because the length of the airship grows much slower than the volume

    Capacity in Gross Lift Length Diameter
    cubic feet in tons in feet in feet
    2,000,000 60.7 643 79
    3,000,000 91.1 736 90.4
    4,000,000 121.4 810 99.5
    5,000,000 151.8 872 107.2
    6,000,000 182.2 927 113.9
    7,000,000 212.5 976 119.9
    8,000,000 242.8 1,021 125.5
    9,000,000 273.3 1,061 130.4
    10,000,000 303.6 1,100 135.1

    Was a table created by some experts in the field in the 1920s (Zeppelin, I think) - it's in the book by Maj. Whale on the British airship program.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,633
    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    What an awful brother the King is.

    King Charles considers removing Prince Andrew’s Duke of York title

    Relations between the brothers are said to be at tipping point after scandals involving Jeffrey Epstein and alleged spying by China


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/royal-family/article/king-charles-prince-andrew-duke-york-title-news-hlcgmjlwb

    I think that Andrew should be extradited to the USA. Let him live out his days in Club Fed.
    I think the current US administration is very keen for no more Epstein trials.
    And Andrew was never charged with anything, either. Just a request for interview, by the FBI.
  • Battlebus said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    A solid series of by election results in the new "heartland" of Surrey for the LDs with gains at both County and District/Borough level.

    The County Council now has 39 Conservative and 42 non-Conservative Councillors and it will be interesting to see, IF the elections for the Shadow Authorities due to take place next year are postponed a year, whether some of the remaining County Councillors will fancy serving up to a seven year term.

    That's how to suspend democracy - not through authoritarianism but reorganisation.

    I do wonder if the UK is heading towards a French type election, which pits the Liberal Democrats against Reform.
    They don't seem to overlap. Reform are/have found themselves in Red Wall territory mainly because the Conservatives 'one-nation' Tories have been gutted from the party by Boris. LibDems have the largest share of the leafy shires constituencies. How Reform can pivot from the left behind to bank managers (see previous quote) will be difficult especially since they are a one-man band.

    Labour have a spread throughout the spectrum from RW to LS but it's definitely weaker at the RW end and stronger at the LS end. Kemi's chasing the Reform rhetoric will simply reinforce the damage done by Boris. Have I mentioned she's a dud*.

    * It would be more appropriate to say she was the least-worst option for LOTO though that penny hasn't dropped yet. She has an unusually high opinion of her own abilities.
    As a conservative I am content that Badenoch is the best leader for the party and she had an excellent conference and is appearing more in the media
    Her "excellent Conference" was mainly excellent because it has been talked up by loyalists like yourself. The fact it wasn't the anticipated clown show (much the same as Labour- no coughing, no letters falling off sign boards) it was deemed a win.
    Most commentators were complimentary and general it is accepted she had a good conference
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,770

    Battlebus said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    A solid series of by election results in the new "heartland" of Surrey for the LDs with gains at both County and District/Borough level.

    The County Council now has 39 Conservative and 42 non-Conservative Councillors and it will be interesting to see, IF the elections for the Shadow Authorities due to take place next year are postponed a year, whether some of the remaining County Councillors will fancy serving up to a seven year term.

    That's how to suspend democracy - not through authoritarianism but reorganisation.

    I do wonder if the UK is heading towards a French type election, which pits the Liberal Democrats against Reform.
    They don't seem to overlap. Reform are/have found themselves in Red Wall territory mainly because the Conservatives 'one-nation' Tories have been gutted from the party by Boris. LibDems have the largest share of the leafy shires constituencies. How Reform can pivot from the left behind to bank managers (see previous quote) will be difficult especially since they are a one-man band.

    Labour have a spread throughout the spectrum from RW to LS but it's definitely weaker at the RW end and stronger at the LS end. Kemi's chasing the Reform rhetoric will simply reinforce the damage done by Boris. Have I mentioned she's a dud*.

    * It would be more appropriate to say she was the least-worst option for LOTO though that penny hasn't dropped yet. She has an unusually high opinion of her own abilities.
    As a conservative I am content that Badenoch is the best leader for the party and she had an excellent conference and is appearing more in the media
    Agree she had a better conference but 'excellent' is a point of view. In terms of achievements, it's a bit light but thankfully she reminds everyone here. Seems similar to 'pork markets' Truss.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/business-and-trade-secretary-opens-up-markets-worth-11-million-every-day-to-uk-businesses

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,768
    Cookie said:

    It's remarkable that this story isn't much higher profile.
    But it happens so regularly. We just shrug our collective shoulders and move on. Middle Eastern nutter does Middle Eastern nutter thing, what you gonna do?
    No doubt, his “right to a family life” will be raised at some stage.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,190

    Battlebus said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    A solid series of by election results in the new "heartland" of Surrey for the LDs with gains at both County and District/Borough level.

    The County Council now has 39 Conservative and 42 non-Conservative Councillors and it will be interesting to see, IF the elections for the Shadow Authorities due to take place next year are postponed a year, whether some of the remaining County Councillors will fancy serving up to a seven year term.

    That's how to suspend democracy - not through authoritarianism but reorganisation.

    I do wonder if the UK is heading towards a French type election, which pits the Liberal Democrats against Reform.
    They don't seem to overlap. Reform are/have found themselves in Red Wall territory mainly because the Conservatives 'one-nation' Tories have been gutted from the party by Boris. LibDems have the largest share of the leafy shires constituencies. How Reform can pivot from the left behind to bank managers (see previous quote) will be difficult especially since they are a one-man band.

    Labour have a spread throughout the spectrum from RW to LS but it's definitely weaker at the RW end and stronger at the LS end. Kemi's chasing the Reform rhetoric will simply reinforce the damage done by Boris. Have I mentioned she's a dud*.

    * It would be more appropriate to say she was the least-worst option for LOTO though that penny hasn't dropped yet. She has an unusually high opinion of her own abilities.
    As a conservative I am content that Badenoch is the best leader for the party and she had an excellent conference and is appearing more in the media
    Her "excellent Conference" was mainly excellent because it has been talked up by loyalists like yourself. The fact it wasn't the anticipated clown show (much the same as Labour- no coughing, no letters falling off sign boards) it was deemed a win.
    Most commentators were complimentary and general it is accepted she had a good conference
    Most commentators said Starmer had a good conference until Farage offered his withering right to reply, which was given more of an airing and gained more traction than Starmer's original. And after that, polled voters stated they hated Starmer and his speech, even as mainstream commentators were still nodding in approval with Starmer.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,307

    Battlebus said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    A solid series of by election results in the new "heartland" of Surrey for the LDs with gains at both County and District/Borough level.

    The County Council now has 39 Conservative and 42 non-Conservative Councillors and it will be interesting to see, IF the elections for the Shadow Authorities due to take place next year are postponed a year, whether some of the remaining County Councillors will fancy serving up to a seven year term.

    That's how to suspend democracy - not through authoritarianism but reorganisation.

    I do wonder if the UK is heading towards a French type election, which pits the Liberal Democrats against Reform.
    They don't seem to overlap. Reform are/have found themselves in Red Wall territory mainly because the Conservatives 'one-nation' Tories have been gutted from the party by Boris. LibDems have the largest share of the leafy shires constituencies. How Reform can pivot from the left behind to bank managers (see previous quote) will be difficult especially since they are a one-man band.

    Labour have a spread throughout the spectrum from RW to LS but it's definitely weaker at the RW end and stronger at the LS end. Kemi's chasing the Reform rhetoric will simply reinforce the damage done by Boris. Have I mentioned she's a dud*.

    * It would be more appropriate to say she was the least-worst option for LOTO though that penny hasn't dropped yet. She has an unusually high opinion of her own abilities.
    As a conservative I am content that Badenoch is the best leader for the party and she had an excellent conference and is appearing more in the media
    Her "excellent Conference" was mainly excellent because it has been talked up by loyalists like yourself. The fact it wasn't the anticipated clown show (much the same as Labour- no coughing, no letters falling off sign boards) it was deemed a win.
    Most commentators were complimentary and general it is accepted she had a good conference
    Most commentators said Starmer had a good conference until Farage offered his withering right to reply, which was given more of an airing and gained more traction than Starmer's original. And after that, polled voters stated they hated Starmer and his speech, even as mainstream commentators were still nodding in approval with Starmer.
    I may have misplaced the timeline, but wasn't that the conference which was overshadowed with Angela Rayner resigning? Fairly sure it was a bit of a shambles?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,449

    Battlebus said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    A solid series of by election results in the new "heartland" of Surrey for the LDs with gains at both County and District/Borough level.

    The County Council now has 39 Conservative and 42 non-Conservative Councillors and it will be interesting to see, IF the elections for the Shadow Authorities due to take place next year are postponed a year, whether some of the remaining County Councillors will fancy serving up to a seven year term.

    That's how to suspend democracy - not through authoritarianism but reorganisation.

    I do wonder if the UK is heading towards a French type election, which pits the Liberal Democrats against Reform.
    They don't seem to overlap. Reform are/have found themselves in Red Wall territory mainly because the Conservatives 'one-nation' Tories have been gutted from the party by Boris. LibDems have the largest share of the leafy shires constituencies. How Reform can pivot from the left behind to bank managers (see previous quote) will be difficult especially since they are a one-man band.

    Labour have a spread throughout the spectrum from RW to LS but it's definitely weaker at the RW end and stronger at the LS end. Kemi's chasing the Reform rhetoric will simply reinforce the damage done by Boris. Have I mentioned she's a dud*.

    * It would be more appropriate to say she was the least-worst option for LOTO though that penny hasn't dropped yet. She has an unusually high opinion of her own abilities.
    As a conservative I am content that Badenoch is the best leader for the party and she had an excellent conference and is appearing more in the media
    Her "excellent Conference" was mainly excellent because it has been talked up by loyalists like yourself. The fact it wasn't the anticipated clown show (much the same as Labour- no coughing, no letters falling off sign boards) it was deemed a win.
    Most commentators were complimentary and general it is accepted she had a good conference
    The stamp duty proposal certainly shook things up though with time it's getting a more lukewarm press.

    The biggest success Badenoch had, pace Starmer, was seeing her principal opponent implode publicly. I do agree she is safe from any challenge until next year's local elections but IF (and this is by no means certain), the results are disappointing, the knives may start to be sharpened anew.

    Yesterday's local election results, with the notable exception of Trafford, were far from comforting especially in areas of former strength and are a reminder not only of how far the Party has fallen but how long the road to recovery.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,559
    edited October 17
    Andy_JS said:

    "Matt Goodwin
    @GoodwinMJ

    Poland's president has just signed a new law introducing zero personal income tax for parents raising at least two children. At least somebody in Europe (alongside the Hungarians) is thinking about how to tackle our demographic crisis"

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1979182947946127507

    Has Goodwin done his stint in the trenches in the fight against the demographic crisis? Let’s hope so as appears to be buggering off as soon as he gets the word.

    https://x.com/goodwinmj/status/1978778014881091827?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,489
    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    A solid series of by election results in the new "heartland" of Surrey for the LDs with gains at both County and District/Borough level.

    The County Council now has 39 Conservative and 42 non-Conservative Councillors and it will be interesting to see, IF the elections for the Shadow Authorities due to take place next year are postponed a year, whether some of the remaining County Councillors will fancy serving up to a seven year term.

    That's how to suspend democracy - not through authoritarianism but reorganisation.

    I do wonder if the UK is heading towards a French type election, which pits the Liberal Democrats against Reform.
    I think that could happen, but only under some form of PR.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,832
    Sean_F said:

    eek said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Well that explains it. People who do the 'postcode lottery' are going to be skewed towards Reform. Course they are. Knock 5 pts off to get a better estimate. That's what I'll be doing from now on anyway. Really useful header, thank you.

    I like the sound of your enthusiasm. Care to back it with some money?

    {Modifying the results of a "Rogue Pollster" has been the cause of the ruin of many a poor gambler}
    Yes you have to be careful. But that's what I'll be doing. 5 pts off Reform. No £ at this point though. Such volatile times.
    1) Rogue Pollsters are ones you disagree with
    2) I am finding absolutely no support for Labour among people I know - middle of the road or the hard core lefties. Especially noticeable is that in casual, non-politics obsessed conversation, every action of the Government is seen as a tired joke.
    3) Several acquaintances are going Reform, to my shock. And disgust.
    4) Council election results seem to show that Reform are doing very well - in places where Labour/Conservatives/Others used to dominate.

    To be clear. The current government is meeeeeeeeeeeeh. A Reform Government will be very, very bad in an active fashion. But this is about where I *bet* on things happening.
    If you believe current council by-elections, then the UK is heading for Ed Davey for Nigel Farage!
    Redcar had a Lib Dem MP from 2010 to 2015...
    Different times. Seats like Redcar won’t vote Lib Dem now, whereas the A3/M3 and A4/M4 corridors are now their heartland.

    Yet, go further East, in Kent and Eastern England, and the Lib Dem’s get little traction among professional/managerial voters.
    Depends where, they certainly do in Tunbridge Wells, St Albans, Berkhamsted, Ely, South Cambridgeshire, Chelmsford and North Norfolk.

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,190
    edited October 17
    Cookie said:

    Battlebus said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    A solid series of by election results in the new "heartland" of Surrey for the LDs with gains at both County and District/Borough level.

    The County Council now has 39 Conservative and 42 non-Conservative Councillors and it will be interesting to see, IF the elections for the Shadow Authorities due to take place next year are postponed a year, whether some of the remaining County Councillors will fancy serving up to a seven year term.

    That's how to suspend democracy - not through authoritarianism but reorganisation.

    I do wonder if the UK is heading towards a French type election, which pits the Liberal Democrats against Reform.
    They don't seem to overlap. Reform are/have found themselves in Red Wall territory mainly because the Conservatives 'one-nation' Tories have been gutted from the party by Boris. LibDems have the largest share of the leafy shires constituencies. How Reform can pivot from the left behind to bank managers (see previous quote) will be difficult especially since they are a one-man band.

    Labour have a spread throughout the spectrum from RW to LS but it's definitely weaker at the RW end and stronger at the LS end. Kemi's chasing the Reform rhetoric will simply reinforce the damage done by Boris. Have I mentioned she's a dud*.

    * It would be more appropriate to say she was the least-worst option for LOTO though that penny hasn't dropped yet. She has an unusually high opinion of her own abilities.
    As a conservative I am content that Badenoch is the best leader for the party and she had an excellent conference and is appearing more in the media
    Her "excellent Conference" was mainly excellent because it has been talked up by loyalists like yourself. The fact it wasn't the anticipated clown show (much the same as Labour- no coughing, no letters falling off sign boards) it was deemed a win.
    Most commentators were complimentary and general it is accepted she had a good conference
    Most commentators said Starmer had a good conference until Farage offered his withering right to reply, which was given more of an airing and gained more traction than Starmer's original. And after that, polled voters stated they hated Starmer and his speech, even as mainstream commentators were still nodding in approval with Starmer.
    I may have misplaced the timeline, but wasn't that the conference which was overshadowed with Angela Rayner resigning? Fairly sure it was a bit of a shambles?
    No that was the "reset".

    The Conference was widely anticipated to be a disaster as King over the Water Burnham arrived to claim his crown. He left early with his tail between his legs and Starmer made a dreary but gaff- free speech which was hailed because contrary to expectations the wheels remained on the Labour bus. Then Farage struck like a Cobra...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,832
    edited October 17

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    A solid series of by election results in the new "heartland" of Surrey for the LDs with gains at both County and District/Borough level.

    The County Council now has 39 Conservative and 42 non-Conservative Councillors and it will be interesting to see, IF the elections for the Shadow Authorities due to take place next year are postponed a year, whether some of the remaining County Councillors will fancy serving up to a seven year term.

    That's how to suspend democracy - not through authoritarianism but reorganisation.

    I do wonder if the UK is heading towards a French type election, which pits the Liberal Democrats against Reform.
    I don’t think Reform would win a landslide on 33%. I think the left wing vote would converge on either Labour or the Lib Dem’s (maybe even the Greens).

    But, if the polling is close between Reform v main left wing party, then the Conservatives would be squeezed further. And, once Reform hit 25%+, their vote is quite efficiently distributed.
    If Reform manages to squeeze the Conservatives to oblivion, there is no reason why they can't get close to 40%, in which case they will win the next election, even if the LabLDGreen vote is exceptionally efficient.

    On the other hand, if the Conservatives stage some kind of come back (maybe getting back in the low-20s, while Reform comes back into the high 20s), then almost any result is possible.
    Not necessarily even then. In the Canadian election in April, their Conservatives (who are basically a merged party of their Reform and most rump Tories) got 41% under the leadership of populist right Poilievre but still lost due to massive tactical voting for centrist Carney's Liberals from the NDP and Green voters so the Liberals got 43%. Bear in mind too some current UK Conservative voters would vote LD over Reform, especially in London, the South and Scotland.

    Though yes if say a Cleverly led Tories won back most 2024 Conservative voters that is the likeliest route to a hung parliament where Reform may not even win most seats
    I admire your optimism.
    I would prefer to still have a Conservative party to be a member of and vote for, otherwise I will be forced to be a swing voter between LD and Reform I suppose.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,559

    What an awful brother the King is.

    King Charles considers removing Prince Andrew’s Duke of York title

    Relations between the brothers are said to be at tipping point after scandals involving Jeffrey Epstein and alleged spying by China


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/royal-family/article/king-charles-prince-andrew-duke-york-title-news-hlcgmjlwb

    Yeah, like Chuck hasn’t known about all this stuff for years. What he’s pissed off about is that wee bro has been so indiscreet as to let the oiks get wind of it.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,245
    eek said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Well that explains it. People who do the 'postcode lottery' are going to be skewed towards Reform. Course they are. Knock 5 pts off to get a better estimate. That's what I'll be doing from now on anyway. Really useful header, thank you.

    I like the sound of your enthusiasm. Care to back it with some money?

    {Modifying the results of a "Rogue Pollster" has been the cause of the ruin of many a poor gambler}
    Yes you have to be careful. But that's what I'll be doing. 5 pts off Reform. No £ at this point though. Such volatile times.
    1) Rogue Pollsters are ones you disagree with
    2) I am finding absolutely no support for Labour among people I know - middle of the road or the hard core lefties. Especially noticeable is that in casual, non-politics obsessed conversation, every action of the Government is seen as a tired joke.
    3) Several acquaintances are going Reform, to my shock. And disgust.
    4) Council election results seem to show that Reform are doing very well - in places where Labour/Conservatives/Others used to dominate.

    To be clear. The current government is meeeeeeeeeeeeh. A Reform Government will be very, very bad in an active fashion. But this is about where I *bet* on things happening.
    If you believe current council by-elections, then the UK is heading for Ed Davey for Nigel Farage!
    Redcar had a Lib Dem MP from 2010 to 2015...
    Ian Swales won Redcar on the back of the campaign to save the steelworks.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,587
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    boulay said:



    rcs1000 said:

    FPT: "Out of curiosity, by what mechanism is it proposed to decarbonise shipping? "

    There are some projects looking to install CO2 capture on ships.

    Other approach is to use ammonia as a carbon-free fuel.

    I quite like the modern sails idea - see the Pyxis Ocean, whose sails were developed by a British company.
    I should probably research it myself but likely someone on here knows already but I would love to know how useful the modern airships being developed could be for cargo transport.

    I clearly have no idea how much weight they can shift, range, speed and susceptibility to bad weather but I have images of “sky trains” of them moving along below plane flight altitudes with perhaps one manned and the rest linked to it by satellite (if indeed all can’t be unmanned) delivering cargo that’s not “urgent”.

    Airships are not a viable transport method for cargo shipping. They can carry only limited amounts. They are very slow. And if the wind is against you, they are incredibly inefficient. (Or indeed, don't even work at all.)
    Isn't there (theoretically at least) quite a large niche for them between ocean shipping and air transport ?

    They can't carry as much as ships, but can carry a LOT more than airplanes. And while the (approximate) costs are very similar to shipping, they're also three to four times the speed, and don't require the same level of dedicated port infrastructure.

    And as an aside, would be the easiest form of air transport to decarbonise, given the huge surface area of a dirigible, and the way in which solar panels are getting lighter and more flexible.
    The problem here is mathematics.

    A typical 40 foot container, loaded, is going to weigh around 30 metric tonnes. (Let's keep the numbers simple.)

    That's just a single forty foot container.

    Given the buoyancy of helium compared to air, that requires (at the very least and before fuel, engines, etc) 28,700 cubic meters of helium.

    You rapidly run into the problem with airships that you need a masive volume of helium, which means a massive structure to hold it, which requires ever more powerful engines and more fuel.

    The numbers simply don't work beyond -possibly- relatively short trips in parts of the world where there is no wind and the roads are bad.
    Even in the latter case you're going to be better off with a swarm of drones taking relatively small loads of ~100kg each.

    Airships are great for steampunk stories where you can ignore the economics and use the problematic physics as part of an interesting narrative. But not for the real world.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,832
    edited October 17

    What an awful brother the King is.

    King Charles considers removing Prince Andrew’s Duke of York title

    Relations between the brothers are said to be at tipping point after scandals involving Jeffrey Epstein and alleged spying by China


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/royal-family/article/king-charles-prince-andrew-duke-york-title-news-hlcgmjlwb

    You were demanding he did something just like that a few days ago.

    I suggest the King instead makes him Earl of Clacton and buys him a 1 bed flat in Jaywick after kicking him out of Royal Lodge
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,190
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    A solid series of by election results in the new "heartland" of Surrey for the LDs with gains at both County and District/Borough level.

    The County Council now has 39 Conservative and 42 non-Conservative Councillors and it will be interesting to see, IF the elections for the Shadow Authorities due to take place next year are postponed a year, whether some of the remaining County Councillors will fancy serving up to a seven year term.

    That's how to suspend democracy - not through authoritarianism but reorganisation.

    I do wonder if the UK is heading towards a French type election, which pits the Liberal Democrats against Reform.
    I don’t think Reform would win a landslide on 33%. I think the left wing vote would converge on either Labour or the Lib Dem’s (maybe even the Greens).

    But, if the polling is close between Reform v main left wing party, then the Conservatives would be squeezed further. And, once Reform hit 25%+, their vote is quite efficiently distributed.
    If Reform manages to squeeze the Conservatives to oblivion, there is no reason why they can't get close to 40%, in which case they will win the next election, even if the LabLDGreen vote is exceptionally efficient.

    On the other hand, if the Conservatives stage some kind of come back (maybe getting back in the low-20s, while Reform comes back into the high 20s), then almost any result is possible.
    Not necessarily even then. In the Canadian election in April, their Conservatives (who are basically a merged party of their Reform and most rump Tories) got 41% under the leadership of populist right Poilievre but still lost due to massive tactical voting for centrist Carney's Liberals from the NDP and Green voters so the Liberals got 43%. Bear in mind too some current UK Conservative voters would vote LD over Reform, especially in London, the South and Scotland.

    Though yes if say a Cleverly led Tories won back most 2024 Conservative voters that is the likeliest route to a hung parliament where Reform may not even win most seats
    I admire your optimism.
    I would prefer to still have a Conservative party to be a member of and vote for, otherwise I will be forced to be a swing voter between LD and Reform I suppose.
    I nearly gave you a like, but resisted. Who are you voting for in the shootout between LD and Reform? If it's not Reform give yourself a like!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,832
    edited October 17

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    A solid series of by election results in the new "heartland" of Surrey for the LDs with gains at both County and District/Borough level.

    The County Council now has 39 Conservative and 42 non-Conservative Councillors and it will be interesting to see, IF the elections for the Shadow Authorities due to take place next year are postponed a year, whether some of the remaining County Councillors will fancy serving up to a seven year term.

    That's how to suspend democracy - not through authoritarianism but reorganisation.

    I do wonder if the UK is heading towards a French type election, which pits the Liberal Democrats against Reform.
    I don’t think Reform would win a landslide on 33%. I think the left wing vote would converge on either Labour or the Lib Dem’s (maybe even the Greens).

    But, if the polling is close between Reform v main left wing party, then the Conservatives would be squeezed further. And, once Reform hit 25%+, their vote is quite efficiently distributed.
    If Reform manages to squeeze the Conservatives to oblivion, there is no reason why they can't get close to 40%, in which case they will win the next election, even if the LabLDGreen vote is exceptionally efficient.

    On the other hand, if the Conservatives stage some kind of come back (maybe getting back in the low-20s, while Reform comes back into the high 20s), then almost any result is possible.
    Not necessarily even then. In the Canadian election in April, their Conservatives (who are basically a merged party of their Reform and most rump Tories) got 41% under the leadership of populist right Poilievre but still lost due to massive tactical voting for centrist Carney's Liberals from the NDP and Green voters so the Liberals got 43%. Bear in mind too some current UK Conservative voters would vote LD over Reform, especially in London, the South and Scotland.

    Though yes if say a Cleverly led Tories won back most 2024 Conservative voters that is the likeliest route to a hung parliament where Reform may not even win most seats
    I admire your optimism.
    I would prefer to still have a Conservative party to be a member of and vote for, otherwise I will be forced to be a swing voter between LD and Reform I suppose.
    I nearly gave you a like, but resisted. Who are you voting for in the shootout between LD and Reform? If it's not Reform give yourself a like!
    If the LDs were reasonably centrist sensible like Davey or Clegg them, if the LDs are more leftist like Charles Kennedy, Tim Farron or Norman Baker then Reform.

    Would depend on who led the LDs at what time, I am not that keen on the LDs rejoin the CU policy either
  • eekeek Posts: 31,529
    edited October 17

    What an awful brother the King is.

    King Charles considers removing Prince Andrew’s Duke of York title

    Relations between the brothers are said to be at tipping point after scandals involving Jeffrey Epstein and alleged spying by China


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/royal-family/article/king-charles-prince-andrew-duke-york-title-news-hlcgmjlwb

    There are 2 documents in the national archive about the queen from 1960 that are subject to a 100 year wait.

    Supposedly one of them reveals that Prince Andrew's dad is Lord Porchester
  • Sean_F said:

    What an awful brother the King is.

    King Charles considers removing Prince Andrew’s Duke of York title

    Relations between the brothers are said to be at tipping point after scandals involving Jeffrey Epstein and alleged spying by China


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/royal-family/article/king-charles-prince-andrew-duke-york-title-news-hlcgmjlwb

    I think that Andrew should be extradited to the USA. Let him live out his days in Club Fed.
    I was going to suggest exiling him to the Pitcairn Islands but then I remembered that place’s recent history and he’d love it.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,190
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    A solid series of by election results in the new "heartland" of Surrey for the LDs with gains at both County and District/Borough level.

    The County Council now has 39 Conservative and 42 non-Conservative Councillors and it will be interesting to see, IF the elections for the Shadow Authorities due to take place next year are postponed a year, whether some of the remaining County Councillors will fancy serving up to a seven year term.

    That's how to suspend democracy - not through authoritarianism but reorganisation.

    I do wonder if the UK is heading towards a French type election, which pits the Liberal Democrats against Reform.
    I don’t think Reform would win a landslide on 33%. I think the left wing vote would converge on either Labour or the Lib Dem’s (maybe even the Greens).

    But, if the polling is close between Reform v main left wing party, then the Conservatives would be squeezed further. And, once Reform hit 25%+, their vote is quite efficiently distributed.
    If Reform manages to squeeze the Conservatives to oblivion, there is no reason why they can't get close to 40%, in which case they will win the next election, even if the LabLDGreen vote is exceptionally efficient.

    On the other hand, if the Conservatives stage some kind of come back (maybe getting back in the low-20s, while Reform comes back into the high 20s), then almost any result is possible.
    Not necessarily even then. In the Canadian election in April, their Conservatives (who are basically a merged party of their Reform and most rump Tories) got 41% under the leadership of populist right Poilievre but still lost due to massive tactical voting for centrist Carney's Liberals from the NDP and Green voters so the Liberals got 43%. Bear in mind too some current UK Conservative voters would vote LD over Reform, especially in London, the South and Scotland.

    Though yes if say a Cleverly led Tories won back most 2024 Conservative voters that is the likeliest route to a hung parliament where Reform may not even win most seats
    I admire your optimism.
    I would prefer to still have a Conservative party to be a member of and vote for, otherwise I will be forced to be a swing voter between LD and Reform I suppose.
    I nearly gave you a like, but resisted. Who are you voting for in the shootout between LD and Reform? If it's not Reform give yourself a like!
    If the LDs were reasonably centrist sensible like Davey or Clegg them, if the LDs are more leftist like Charles Kennedy, Tim Farron or Norman Baker then Reform.

    Depends who leads the LDs at what time, I am not that keen on the LDs rejoin the CU policy either
    Reform! Wash your mouth out and remove that like I just gave you. They are not Conservative, they are not your friends!
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,591
    stodge said:

    Yes, much as though some might want a straight fight between "Bungee" Ed Davey and the "Downe Destroyer" Nigel Farage, politics doesn't work that way any more.

    It will be a war of many fronts of which Labour vs Conservative won't be the most important (as has been the case in every election since, arguably, 1918). It will be, among oters, Reform vs Labour, Reform vs Conservative, Conservative vs Labour, Conservative vs Lib Dem, Conservative vs Green and that's before we get to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

    The thing is, you can go backward on one front yet advance on another if your opponent falls back even more.

    I’d expect Reform to pitch it as them, as the outsiders, against the old parties working against them.
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,591

    Cookie said:

    Battlebus said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    A solid series of by election results in the new "heartland" of Surrey for the LDs with gains at both County and District/Borough level.

    The County Council now has 39 Conservative and 42 non-Conservative Councillors and it will be interesting to see, IF the elections for the Shadow Authorities due to take place next year are postponed a year, whether some of the remaining County Councillors will fancy serving up to a seven year term.

    That's how to suspend democracy - not through authoritarianism but reorganisation.

    I do wonder if the UK is heading towards a French type election, which pits the Liberal Democrats against Reform.
    They don't seem to overlap. Reform are/have found themselves in Red Wall territory mainly because the Conservatives 'one-nation' Tories have been gutted from the party by Boris. LibDems have the largest share of the leafy shires constituencies. How Reform can pivot from the left behind to bank managers (see previous quote) will be difficult especially since they are a one-man band.

    Labour have a spread throughout the spectrum from RW to LS but it's definitely weaker at the RW end and stronger at the LS end. Kemi's chasing the Reform rhetoric will simply reinforce the damage done by Boris. Have I mentioned she's a dud*.

    * It would be more appropriate to say she was the least-worst option for LOTO though that penny hasn't dropped yet. She has an unusually high opinion of her own abilities.
    As a conservative I am content that Badenoch is the best leader for the party and she had an excellent conference and is appearing more in the media
    Her "excellent Conference" was mainly excellent because it has been talked up by loyalists like yourself. The fact it wasn't the anticipated clown show (much the same as Labour- no coughing, no letters falling off sign boards) it was deemed a win.
    Most commentators were complimentary and general it is accepted she had a good conference
    Most commentators said Starmer had a good conference until Farage offered his withering right to reply, which was given more of an airing and gained more traction than Starmer's original. And after that, polled voters stated they hated Starmer and his speech, even as mainstream commentators were still nodding in approval with Starmer.
    I may have misplaced the timeline, but wasn't that the conference which was overshadowed with Angela Rayner resigning? Fairly sure it was a bit of a shambles?
    No that was the "reset".

    The Conference was widely anticipated to be a disaster as King over the Water Burnham arrived to claim his crown. He left early with his tail between his legs and Starmer made a dreary but gaff- free speech which was hailed because contrary to expectations the wheels remained on the Labour bus. Then Farage struck like a Cobra...
    Yeah, Burnham was the big loser at the Labour conference.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,552
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    A solid series of by election results in the new "heartland" of Surrey for the LDs with gains at both County and District/Borough level.

    The County Council now has 39 Conservative and 42 non-Conservative Councillors and it will be interesting to see, IF the elections for the Shadow Authorities due to take place next year are postponed a year, whether some of the remaining County Councillors will fancy serving up to a seven year term.

    That's how to suspend democracy - not through authoritarianism but reorganisation.

    I do wonder if the UK is heading towards a French type election, which pits the Liberal Democrats against Reform.
    I don’t think Reform would win a landslide on 33%. I think the left wing vote would converge on either Labour or the Lib Dem’s (maybe even the Greens).

    But, if the polling is close between Reform v main left wing party, then the Conservatives would be squeezed further. And, once Reform hit 25%+, their vote is quite efficiently distributed.
    If Reform manages to squeeze the Conservatives to oblivion, there is no reason why they can't get close to 40%, in which case they will win the next election, even if the LabLDGreen vote is exceptionally efficient.

    On the other hand, if the Conservatives stage some kind of come back (maybe getting back in the low-20s, while Reform comes back into the high 20s), then almost any result is possible.
    Not necessarily even then. In the Canadian election in April, their Conservatives (who are basically a merged party of their Reform and most rump Tories) got 41% under the leadership of populist right Poilievre but still lost due to massive tactical voting for centrist Carney's Liberals from the NDP and Green voters so the Liberals got 43%. Bear in mind too some current UK Conservative voters would vote LD over Reform, especially in London, the South and Scotland.

    Though yes if say a Cleverly led Tories won back most 2024 Conservative voters that is the likeliest route to a hung parliament where Reform may not even win most seats
    I saw friends at the weekend. One is a Tory-leaning voter, but has voted LD before. She reported being more firmly in favour of the Conservatives (paid enough tax, fed up with scroungers), but was vehemently anti-Reform, so open to tactical voting. Another present was, like, this Polanski is making sense.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,559
    Sean_F said:

    Cookie said:

    It's remarkable that this story isn't much higher profile.
    But it happens so regularly. We just shrug our collective shoulders and move on. Middle Eastern nutter does Middle Eastern nutter thing, what you gonna do?
    No doubt, his “right to a family life” will be raised at some stage.
    Thought at first you were referring to your proposal to extradite Andrew Windsor.

    ‘But I’ll no longer be able to take my gels to Pizza Express in Woking!’
  • eekeek Posts: 31,529
    Taz said:

    Cookie said:

    Battlebus said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    A solid series of by election results in the new "heartland" of Surrey for the LDs with gains at both County and District/Borough level.

    The County Council now has 39 Conservative and 42 non-Conservative Councillors and it will be interesting to see, IF the elections for the Shadow Authorities due to take place next year are postponed a year, whether some of the remaining County Councillors will fancy serving up to a seven year term.

    That's how to suspend democracy - not through authoritarianism but reorganisation.

    I do wonder if the UK is heading towards a French type election, which pits the Liberal Democrats against Reform.
    They don't seem to overlap. Reform are/have found themselves in Red Wall territory mainly because the Conservatives 'one-nation' Tories have been gutted from the party by Boris. LibDems have the largest share of the leafy shires constituencies. How Reform can pivot from the left behind to bank managers (see previous quote) will be difficult especially since they are a one-man band.

    Labour have a spread throughout the spectrum from RW to LS but it's definitely weaker at the RW end and stronger at the LS end. Kemi's chasing the Reform rhetoric will simply reinforce the damage done by Boris. Have I mentioned she's a dud*.

    * It would be more appropriate to say she was the least-worst option for LOTO though that penny hasn't dropped yet. She has an unusually high opinion of her own abilities.
    As a conservative I am content that Badenoch is the best leader for the party and she had an excellent conference and is appearing more in the media
    Her "excellent Conference" was mainly excellent because it has been talked up by loyalists like yourself. The fact it wasn't the anticipated clown show (much the same as Labour- no coughing, no letters falling off sign boards) it was deemed a win.
    Most commentators were complimentary and general it is accepted she had a good conference
    Most commentators said Starmer had a good conference until Farage offered his withering right to reply, which was given more of an airing and gained more traction than Starmer's original. And after that, polled voters stated they hated Starmer and his speech, even as mainstream commentators were still nodding in approval with Starmer.
    I may have misplaced the timeline, but wasn't that the conference which was overshadowed with Angela Rayner resigning? Fairly sure it was a bit of a shambles?
    No that was the "reset".

    The Conference was widely anticipated to be a disaster as King over the Water Burnham arrived to claim his crown. He left early with his tail between his legs and Starmer made a dreary but gaff- free speech which was hailed because contrary to expectations the wheels remained on the Labour bus. Then Farage struck like a Cobra...
    Yeah, Burnham was the big loser at the Labour conference.
    Burnham is the hope of people who don't understand that he isn't even in the qualifying tournament...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,832
    edited October 17
    Taz said:

    Cookie said:

    Battlebus said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    A solid series of by election results in the new "heartland" of Surrey for the LDs with gains at both County and District/Borough level.

    The County Council now has 39 Conservative and 42 non-Conservative Councillors and it will be interesting to see, IF the elections for the Shadow Authorities due to take place next year are postponed a year, whether some of the remaining County Councillors will fancy serving up to a seven year term.

    That's how to suspend democracy - not through authoritarianism but reorganisation.

    I do wonder if the UK is heading towards a French type election, which pits the Liberal Democrats against Reform.
    They don't seem to overlap. Reform are/have found themselves in Red Wall territory mainly because the Conservatives 'one-nation' Tories have been gutted from the party by Boris. LibDems have the largest share of the leafy shires constituencies. How Reform can pivot from the left behind to bank managers (see previous quote) will be difficult especially since they are a one-man band.

    Labour have a spread throughout the spectrum from RW to LS but it's definitely weaker at the RW end and stronger at the LS end. Kemi's chasing the Reform rhetoric will simply reinforce the damage done by Boris. Have I mentioned she's a dud*.

    * It would be more appropriate to say she was the least-worst option for LOTO though that penny hasn't dropped yet. She has an unusually high opinion of her own abilities.
    As a conservative I am content that Badenoch is the best leader for the party and she had an excellent conference and is appearing more in the media
    Her "excellent Conference" was mainly excellent because it has been talked up by loyalists like yourself. The fact it wasn't the anticipated clown show (much the same as Labour- no coughing, no letters falling off sign boards) it was deemed a win.
    Most commentators were complimentary and general it is accepted she had a good conference
    Most commentators said Starmer had a good conference until Farage offered his withering right to reply, which was given more of an airing and gained more traction than Starmer's original. And after that, polled voters stated they hated Starmer and his speech, even as mainstream commentators were still nodding in approval with Starmer.
    I may have misplaced the timeline, but wasn't that the conference which was overshadowed with Angela Rayner resigning? Fairly sure it was a bit of a shambles?
    No that was the "reset".

    The Conference was widely anticipated to be a disaster as King over the Water Burnham arrived to claim his crown. He left early with his tail between his legs and Starmer made a dreary but gaff- free speech which was hailed because contrary to expectations the wheels remained on the Labour bus. Then Farage struck like a Cobra...
    Yeah, Burnham was the big loser at the Labour conference.
    In the long term I suspect not. The MoreinCommon poll taken over that conference weekend having a Burnham led Labour up to 30%, 2% ahead of Reform on 28% will concentrate the minds of Labour MPs and members for some time while Starmer Labour continues to trail Reform

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15132275/Andy-Burnham-Labour-row-MPs-WANT-oust-Keir-Starmer.html
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,965

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    boulay said:



    rcs1000 said:

    FPT: "Out of curiosity, by what mechanism is it proposed to decarbonise shipping? "

    There are some projects looking to install CO2 capture on ships.

    Other approach is to use ammonia as a carbon-free fuel.

    I quite like the modern sails idea - see the Pyxis Ocean, whose sails were developed by a British company.
    I should probably research it myself but likely someone on here knows already but I would love to know how useful the modern airships being developed could be for cargo transport.

    I clearly have no idea how much weight they can shift, range, speed and susceptibility to bad weather but I have images of “sky trains” of them moving along below plane flight altitudes with perhaps one manned and the rest linked to it by satellite (if indeed all can’t be unmanned) delivering cargo that’s not “urgent”.

    Airships are not a viable transport method for cargo shipping. They can carry only limited amounts. They are very slow. And if the wind is against you, they are incredibly inefficient. (Or indeed, don't even work at all.)
    Isn't there (theoretically at least) quite a large niche for them between ocean shipping and air transport ?

    They can't carry as much as ships, but can carry a LOT more than airplanes. And while the (approximate) costs are very similar to shipping, they're also three to four times the speed, and don't require the same level of dedicated port infrastructure.

    And as an aside, would be the easiest form of air transport to decarbonise, given the huge surface area of a dirigible, and the way in which solar panels are getting lighter and more flexible.
    The problem here is mathematics.

    A typical 40 foot container, loaded, is going to weigh around 30 metric tonnes. (Let's keep the numbers simple.)

    That's just a single forty foot container.

    Given the buoyancy of helium compared to air, that requires (at the very least and before fuel, engines, etc) 28,700 cubic meters of helium.

    You rapidly run into the problem with airships that you need a masive volume of helium, which means a massive structure to hold it, which requires ever more powerful engines and more fuel.

    The numbers simply don't work beyond -possibly- relatively short trips in parts of the world where there is no wind and the roads are bad.
    Actually, it scales the other way. The optimum size for airships, not considering handling, is as big as possible. The structural fraction decreases as the airship gets larger, up to at least 1500 feet long.

    This is because the length of the airship grows much slower than the volume

    Capacity in Gross Lift Length Diameter
    cubic feet in tons in feet in feet
    2,000,000 60.7 643 79
    3,000,000 91.1 736 90.4
    4,000,000 121.4 810 99.5
    5,000,000 151.8 872 107.2
    6,000,000 182.2 927 113.9
    7,000,000 212.5 976 119.9
    8,000,000 242.8 1,021 125.5
    9,000,000 273.3 1,061 130.4
    10,000,000 303.6 1,100 135.1

    Was a table created by some experts in the field in the 1920s (Zeppelin, I think) - it's in the book by Maj. Whale on the British airship program.
    Smaller surface area (parasite and form drag, and vulnerability to wind) to volume ratio as it increases, too - cf. Brunel and his giant ships' design logic.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,522

    Cookie said:

    Battlebus said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    A solid series of by election results in the new "heartland" of Surrey for the LDs with gains at both County and District/Borough level.

    The County Council now has 39 Conservative and 42 non-Conservative Councillors and it will be interesting to see, IF the elections for the Shadow Authorities due to take place next year are postponed a year, whether some of the remaining County Councillors will fancy serving up to a seven year term.

    That's how to suspend democracy - not through authoritarianism but reorganisation.

    I do wonder if the UK is heading towards a French type election, which pits the Liberal Democrats against Reform.
    They don't seem to overlap. Reform are/have found themselves in Red Wall territory mainly because the Conservatives 'one-nation' Tories have been gutted from the party by Boris. LibDems have the largest share of the leafy shires constituencies. How Reform can pivot from the left behind to bank managers (see previous quote) will be difficult especially since they are a one-man band.

    Labour have a spread throughout the spectrum from RW to LS but it's definitely weaker at the RW end and stronger at the LS end. Kemi's chasing the Reform rhetoric will simply reinforce the damage done by Boris. Have I mentioned she's a dud*.

    * It would be more appropriate to say she was the least-worst option for LOTO though that penny hasn't dropped yet. She has an unusually high opinion of her own abilities.
    As a conservative I am content that Badenoch is the best leader for the party and she had an excellent conference and is appearing more in the media
    Her "excellent Conference" was mainly excellent because it has been talked up by loyalists like yourself. The fact it wasn't the anticipated clown show (much the same as Labour- no coughing, no letters falling off sign boards) it was deemed a win.
    Most commentators were complimentary and general it is accepted she had a good conference
    Most commentators said Starmer had a good conference until Farage offered his withering right to reply, which was given more of an airing and gained more traction than Starmer's original. And after that, polled voters stated they hated Starmer and his speech, even as mainstream commentators were still nodding in approval with Starmer.
    I may have misplaced the timeline, but wasn't that the conference which was overshadowed with Angela Rayner resigning? Fairly sure it was a bit of a shambles?
    No that was the "reset".

    The Conference was widely anticipated to be a disaster as King over the Water Burnham arrived to claim his crown. He left early with his tail between his legs and Starmer made a dreary but gaff- free speech which was hailed because contrary to expectations the wheels remained on the Labour bus. Then Farage struck like a Cobra...
    Yes, Nigel played a blinder that day. His whole career, and the hopes and dreams of his admirers, owed everything to a dislike of foreigners and those of the non-white hue, yet when Sir Keir mentioned this Nigel turned round with a tear in his eye, whispered 'I'm not a racialist', and at Sir Keir an affronted nation glowered.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,329
    I notice "patriotic renewal" slogan has already been ditched, it's now "national renewal".
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 2,270
    eek said:

    stodge said:

    Hyperbole seems to be the order of the day - the FTSE100 has apparently plunged (actually, it's down about 0.75% so hardly earth shattering) and I am also informed the decision to ban Maccabi Tel Aviv fans from attending the match against Aston Villa is the end of civilisation as we know it and the end of "Britain" (whatever that means).

    The latter is an example of the world we'd like versus the world as it is. There are huge and violent rivalries within British football - all manner of "grudge" matches involving supporters from sometimes the same town or city and there was plenty of violence around once related to these games as those who went to matches in the 70s and 80s will attest.

    Of course, we shouldn't have the situation when Liverpool fans are banned from going to Old Trafford or Ipswich fans to Carrow Road or Millwall fans to almost anywhere and the same applies to supporters of Maccabi Tel Aviv.

    There will be those who will argue the cost of policing such a game in terms of extra resources and manpower isn't justifiable and inevitably IF the ban is lifted, there will no doubt be those who, when the cost of doing all this appears in the public domain, will jump up and down but sometimes you have to forget the cost against the principle.

    That's not to say public order as a whole isn't important but the intolerance of majorities (or is it the wisdom of crowds, I can never quite remember?) can't be the basis on which the policing of events takes place. Yes, you have a right to protest but peacefully and within the law and that means you can't intimidate people who have an equal right to be there but simply shout things you don't like or believe in a God you don't or have a skin colour which isn't yours.

    Those with long memories wll remember Cable Street and the local population "defending" their area against the BUF - that was lauded as a victory then but would it be so now? I wonder.

    I just don't get the problem as you do what other sensible police forces do.

    For Sunderland / Newcastle matches you bus in the away supporters on coaches leaving you with one set of vehicles to observe and if necessary protect.

    The Chief Constable needs to be made to explain why he is taking the easy way out whilst creating an international incident..
    It was quite cool to be bussed to our match a few years ago in Istanbul (v Basaksehir) - 12 coaches from Taksim Square with police vehicles and outriders stopping all traffic, even on urban motorways, like a presidential motorcade.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,908

    What an awful brother the King is.

    King Charles considers removing Prince Andrew’s Duke of York title

    Relations between the brothers are said to be at tipping point after scandals involving Jeffrey Epstein and alleged spying by China


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/royal-family/article/king-charles-prince-andrew-duke-york-title-news-hlcgmjlwb

    The response of the King seems quite mild, given the fact that Andrew has clearly misled the court as well as the media concerning his relationship with the Epstein circle. If I were the King I would be incandescent that his brother has clearly lied to his face. More to the point, there is the open question of what else Andrew has been doing that is, shall we say, unlikely to be popular in the country at large.

    If, as I think we may suspect, it includes highly problematic financial arrangements, I think that Andrew will be exiled to the outer darkness for the rest of his life. Certainly the Prince of Wales seems to be of this opinion. This is notwithstanding the attempts of Beatrice and Eugenie to stay in good standing with the court, which I think are completely doomed.

    Ironically it is not the size of the Royal family that is the problem- the Duke of Kent and the Gloucesters have been doing sterling work, as have the Edinburghs and the Princess Royal and Sir Tim... even Zara and Mike. The Yorks on the other hand...
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,768

    Sean_F said:

    What an awful brother the King is.

    King Charles considers removing Prince Andrew’s Duke of York title

    Relations between the brothers are said to be at tipping point after scandals involving Jeffrey Epstein and alleged spying by China


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/royal-family/article/king-charles-prince-andrew-duke-york-title-news-hlcgmjlwb

    I think that Andrew should be extradited to the USA. Let him live out his days in Club Fed.
    I was going to suggest exiling him to the Pitcairn Islands but then I remembered that place’s recent history and he’d love it.
    He’d think he’d landed on his feet.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,895
    sarissa said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    Hyperbole seems to be the order of the day - the FTSE100 has apparently plunged (actually, it's down about 0.75% so hardly earth shattering) and I am also informed the decision to ban Maccabi Tel Aviv fans from attending the match against Aston Villa is the end of civilisation as we know it and the end of "Britain" (whatever that means).

    The latter is an example of the world we'd like versus the world as it is. There are huge and violent rivalries within British football - all manner of "grudge" matches involving supporters from sometimes the same town or city and there was plenty of violence around once related to these games as those who went to matches in the 70s and 80s will attest.

    Of course, we shouldn't have the situation when Liverpool fans are banned from going to Old Trafford or Ipswich fans to Carrow Road or Millwall fans to almost anywhere and the same applies to supporters of Maccabi Tel Aviv.

    There will be those who will argue the cost of policing such a game in terms of extra resources and manpower isn't justifiable and inevitably IF the ban is lifted, there will no doubt be those who, when the cost of doing all this appears in the public domain, will jump up and down but sometimes you have to forget the cost against the principle.

    That's not to say public order as a whole isn't important but the intolerance of majorities (or is it the wisdom of crowds, I can never quite remember?) can't be the basis on which the policing of events takes place. Yes, you have a right to protest but peacefully and within the law and that means you can't intimidate people who have an equal right to be there but simply shout things you don't like or believe in a God you don't or have a skin colour which isn't yours.

    Those with long memories wll remember Cable Street and the local population "defending" their area against the BUF - that was lauded as a victory then but would it be so now? I wonder.

    I just don't get the problem as you do what other sensible police forces do.

    For Sunderland / Newcastle matches you bus in the away supporters on coaches leaving you with one set of vehicles to observe and if necessary protect.

    The Chief Constable needs to be made to explain why he is taking the easy way out whilst creating an international incident..
    It was quite cool to be bussed to our match a few years ago in Istanbul (v Basaksehir) - 12 coaches from Taksim Square with police vehicles and outriders stopping all traffic, even on urban motorways, like a presidential motorcade.
    The school which my Thai (well, half) granddaughters attend in Bangkok has, or at least had, minor royalty attending. On one occasion her class was off on a trip, and late, so the police blocked roads and gave their coach an escort, to enable them to make up time.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,633
    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    boulay said:



    rcs1000 said:

    FPT: "Out of curiosity, by what mechanism is it proposed to decarbonise shipping? "

    There are some projects looking to install CO2 capture on ships.

    Other approach is to use ammonia as a carbon-free fuel.

    I quite like the modern sails idea - see the Pyxis Ocean, whose sails were developed by a British company.
    I should probably research it myself but likely someone on here knows already but I would love to know how useful the modern airships being developed could be for cargo transport.

    I clearly have no idea how much weight they can shift, range, speed and susceptibility to bad weather but I have images of “sky trains” of them moving along below plane flight altitudes with perhaps one manned and the rest linked to it by satellite (if indeed all can’t be unmanned) delivering cargo that’s not “urgent”.

    Airships are not a viable transport method for cargo shipping. They can carry only limited amounts. They are very slow. And if the wind is against you, they are incredibly inefficient. (Or indeed, don't even work at all.)
    Isn't there (theoretically at least) quite a large niche for them between ocean shipping and air transport ?

    They can't carry as much as ships, but can carry a LOT more than airplanes. And while the (approximate) costs are very similar to shipping, they're also three to four times the speed, and don't require the same level of dedicated port infrastructure.

    And as an aside, would be the easiest form of air transport to decarbonise, given the huge surface area of a dirigible, and the way in which solar panels are getting lighter and more flexible.
    The problem here is mathematics.

    A typical 40 foot container, loaded, is going to weigh around 30 metric tonnes. (Let's keep the numbers simple.)

    That's just a single forty foot container.

    Given the buoyancy of helium compared to air, that requires (at the very least and before fuel, engines, etc) 28,700 cubic meters of helium.

    You rapidly run into the problem with airships that you need a masive volume of helium, which means a massive structure to hold it, which requires ever more powerful engines and more fuel.

    The numbers simply don't work beyond -possibly- relatively short trips in parts of the world where there is no wind and the roads are bad.
    Actually, it scales the other way. The optimum size for airships, not considering handling, is as big as possible. The structural fraction decreases as the airship gets larger, up to at least 1500 feet long.

    This is because the length of the airship grows much slower than the volume

    Capacity in Gross Lift Length Diameter
    cubic feet in tons in feet in feet
    2,000,000 60.7 643 79
    3,000,000 91.1 736 90.4
    4,000,000 121.4 810 99.5
    5,000,000 151.8 872 107.2
    6,000,000 182.2 927 113.9
    7,000,000 212.5 976 119.9
    8,000,000 242.8 1,021 125.5
    9,000,000 273.3 1,061 130.4
    10,000,000 303.6 1,100 135.1

    Was a table created by some experts in the field in the 1920s (Zeppelin, I think) - it's in the book by Maj. Whale on the British airship program.
    Smaller surface area (parasite and form drag, and vulnerability to wind) to volume ratio as it increases, too - cf. Brunel and his giant ships' design logic.
    But the side on wide resistance is insurmountable - even for small airships. They get tossed around by the wind. Unless you fly only on the calmest days.

    And that is why the airships aren't coming back.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,768
    Cicero said:

    What an awful brother the King is.

    King Charles considers removing Prince Andrew’s Duke of York title

    Relations between the brothers are said to be at tipping point after scandals involving Jeffrey Epstein and alleged spying by China


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/royal-family/article/king-charles-prince-andrew-duke-york-title-news-hlcgmjlwb

    The response of the King seems quite mild, given the fact that Andrew has clearly misled the court as well as the media concerning his relationship with the Epstein circle. If I were the King I would be incandescent that his brother has clearly lied to his face. More to the point, there is the open question of what else Andrew has been doing that is, shall we say, unlikely to be popular in the country at large.

    If, as I think we may suspect, it includes highly problematic financial arrangements, I think that Andrew will be exiled to the outer darkness for the rest of his life. Certainly the Prince of Wales seems to be of this opinion. This is notwithstanding the attempts of Beatrice and Eugenie to stay in good standing with the court, which I think are completely doomed.

    Ironically it is not the size of the Royal family that is the problem- the Duke of Kent and the Gloucesters have been doing sterling work, as have the Edinburghs and the Princess Royal and Sir Tim... even Zara and Mike. The Yorks on the other hand...
    It’s rare for someone not to possess a single redeeming feature, but I think Andrew achieves that distinction.

    A friend of mine wrote a wonderful adult Harry Potter fanfic, where even Bellatrix is horrified by what she sees inside Andrew’s mind. She hands him over to Fenrir Greyback, to punish as he sees fit.

    “Like you, Fenrir’s an animal, but even so, he has some standards, and he thinks you’ve fallen short of them.”
  • ManOfGwentManOfGwent Posts: 235
    eek said:

    What an awful brother the King is.

    King Charles considers removing Prince Andrew’s Duke of York title

    Relations between the brothers are said to be at tipping point after scandals involving Jeffrey Epstein and alleged spying by China


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/royal-family/article/king-charles-prince-andrew-duke-york-title-news-hlcgmjlwb

    There are 2 documents in the national archive about the queen from 1960 that are subject to a 100 year wait.

    Supposedly one of them reveals that Prince Andrew's dad is Lord Porchester
    Something like that would be in the Royal archives, not the national archives.

    There are lots of documents with long release dates, they are generally for very very mundane security reasons.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,965
    Sean_F said:

    Cicero said:

    What an awful brother the King is.

    King Charles considers removing Prince Andrew’s Duke of York title

    Relations between the brothers are said to be at tipping point after scandals involving Jeffrey Epstein and alleged spying by China


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/royal-family/article/king-charles-prince-andrew-duke-york-title-news-hlcgmjlwb

    The response of the King seems quite mild, given the fact that Andrew has clearly misled the court as well as the media concerning his relationship with the Epstein circle. If I were the King I would be incandescent that his brother has clearly lied to his face. More to the point, there is the open question of what else Andrew has been doing that is, shall we say, unlikely to be popular in the country at large.

    If, as I think we may suspect, it includes highly problematic financial arrangements, I think that Andrew will be exiled to the outer darkness for the rest of his life. Certainly the Prince of Wales seems to be of this opinion. This is notwithstanding the attempts of Beatrice and Eugenie to stay in good standing with the court, which I think are completely doomed.

    Ironically it is not the size of the Royal family that is the problem- the Duke of Kent and the Gloucesters have been doing sterling work, as have the Edinburghs and the Princess Royal and Sir Tim... even Zara and Mike. The Yorks on the other hand...
    It’s rare for someone not to possess a single redeeming feature, but I think Andrew achieves that distinction.

    A friend of mine wrote a wonderful adult Harry Potter fanfic, where even Bellatrix is horrified by what she sees inside Andrew’s mind. She hands him over to Fenrir Greyback, to punish as he sees fit.

    “Like you, Fenrir’s an animal, but even so, he has some standards, and he thinks you’ve fallen short of them.”
    No credit for his RN service, tbf?
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,522

    eek said:

    What an awful brother the King is.

    King Charles considers removing Prince Andrew’s Duke of York title

    Relations between the brothers are said to be at tipping point after scandals involving Jeffrey Epstein and alleged spying by China


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/royal-family/article/king-charles-prince-andrew-duke-york-title-news-hlcgmjlwb

    There are 2 documents in the national archive about the queen from 1960 that are subject to a 100 year wait.

    Supposedly one of them reveals that Prince Andrew's dad is Lord Porchester
    Something like that would be in the Royal archives, not the national archives.

    There are lots of documents with long release dates, they are generally for very very mundane security reasons.
    I always wondered why there wasn't a record corroborating, or not, Andrew's Woking Pizza Hut story. (Surely his security attachment would have noted the places they visited.) Perhaps it will emerge in eighty years.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,329

    eek said:

    What an awful brother the King is.

    King Charles considers removing Prince Andrew’s Duke of York title

    Relations between the brothers are said to be at tipping point after scandals involving Jeffrey Epstein and alleged spying by China


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/royal-family/article/king-charles-prince-andrew-duke-york-title-news-hlcgmjlwb

    There are 2 documents in the national archive about the queen from 1960 that are subject to a 100 year wait.

    Supposedly one of them reveals that Prince Andrew's dad is Lord Porchester
    Something like that would be in the Royal archives, not the national archives.

    There are lots of documents with long release dates, they are generally for very very mundane security reasons.
    I always wondered why there wasn't a record corroborating, or not, Andrew's Woking Pizza Hut story. (Surely his security attachment would have noted the places they visited.) Perhaps it will emerge in eighty years.
    I think we all have a very good idea why there wasn't any evidence of his visit....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,213
    Fishing said:

    eek said:

    Another good way out is I read the executive summary but not the full report.

    You would make a great politician.....
    Mrs Thatcher said if she read every report in full she wouldn’t have any other time to do things as a minister/PM, Dave concurred.

    What you’re reliant on is a staff who know what to prioritise for you to know about.
    I suspect you don't actually have time to read the executive summary of all the reports - even they will need to be prioritised..
    I was told there was a MOD report that a 150 page executive summary.
    I can believe it. I remember when I joined a government department about 15 years ago they repeatedly produced Exec Sums of 40 pages. I caused extraordinary consternation by insisting that the Exec Sums should from then on fit on a single page (though I had to relax that to two as the house style seemed to be designed to waste as much space as possible).

    The other extraordinary feature of their document production was the incredible waste of resources that I've mentioned before in translating all the documents into Welsh. Of course we got zero requests or downloads for them. Yet another lesson in the huge waste of time and money that is political correctness. Unfortunately I couldn't sabotage that practice.
    Autotranslate ought to make that a minor thing.
  • Sean_F said:

    Cicero said:

    What an awful brother the King is.

    King Charles considers removing Prince Andrew’s Duke of York title

    Relations between the brothers are said to be at tipping point after scandals involving Jeffrey Epstein and alleged spying by China


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/royal-family/article/king-charles-prince-andrew-duke-york-title-news-hlcgmjlwb

    The response of the King seems quite mild, given the fact that Andrew has clearly misled the court as well as the media concerning his relationship with the Epstein circle. If I were the King I would be incandescent that his brother has clearly lied to his face. More to the point, there is the open question of what else Andrew has been doing that is, shall we say, unlikely to be popular in the country at large.

    If, as I think we may suspect, it includes highly problematic financial arrangements, I think that Andrew will be exiled to the outer darkness for the rest of his life. Certainly the Prince of Wales seems to be of this opinion. This is notwithstanding the attempts of Beatrice and Eugenie to stay in good standing with the court, which I think are completely doomed.

    Ironically it is not the size of the Royal family that is the problem- the Duke of Kent and the Gloucesters have been doing sterling work, as have the Edinburghs and the Princess Royal and Sir Tim... even Zara and Mike. The Yorks on the other hand...
    It’s rare for someone not to possess a single redeeming feature, but I think Andrew achieves that distinction.

    A friend of mine wrote a wonderful adult Harry Potter fanfic, where even Bellatrix is horrified by what she sees inside Andrew’s mind. She hands him over to Fenrir Greyback, to punish as he sees fit.

    “Like you, Fenrir’s an animal, but even so, he has some standards, and he thinks you’ve fallen short of them.”
    A senior politician once said that it wouldn’t surprise them to wake up one day to the news that Prince Andrew’s bodyguards had shot and killed the Prince.
  • ManOfGwentManOfGwent Posts: 235

    eek said:

    What an awful brother the King is.

    King Charles considers removing Prince Andrew’s Duke of York title

    Relations between the brothers are said to be at tipping point after scandals involving Jeffrey Epstein and alleged spying by China


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/royal-family/article/king-charles-prince-andrew-duke-york-title-news-hlcgmjlwb

    There are 2 documents in the national archive about the queen from 1960 that are subject to a 100 year wait.

    Supposedly one of them reveals that Prince Andrew's dad is Lord Porchester
    Something like that would be in the Royal archives, not the national archives.

    There are lots of documents with long release dates, they are generally for very very mundane security reasons.
    I always wondered why there wasn't a record corroborating, or not, Andrew's Woking Pizza Hut story. (Surely his security attachment would have noted the places they visited.) Perhaps it will emerge in eighty years.
    The Royal Household is not considered a public authority and is therefore not subject to the Freedom of Information Act. Document's held by public authorities that have Royal information in can be released, but there are royal expectations in the Act too.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,190

    Cookie said:

    Battlebus said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    A solid series of by election results in the new "heartland" of Surrey for the LDs with gains at both County and District/Borough level.

    The County Council now has 39 Conservative and 42 non-Conservative Councillors and it will be interesting to see, IF the elections for the Shadow Authorities due to take place next year are postponed a year, whether some of the remaining County Councillors will fancy serving up to a seven year term.

    That's how to suspend democracy - not through authoritarianism but reorganisation.

    I do wonder if the UK is heading towards a French type election, which pits the Liberal Democrats against Reform.
    They don't seem to overlap. Reform are/have found themselves in Red Wall territory mainly because the Conservatives 'one-nation' Tories have been gutted from the party by Boris. LibDems have the largest share of the leafy shires constituencies. How Reform can pivot from the left behind to bank managers (see previous quote) will be difficult especially since they are a one-man band.

    Labour have a spread throughout the spectrum from RW to LS but it's definitely weaker at the RW end and stronger at the LS end. Kemi's chasing the Reform rhetoric will simply reinforce the damage done by Boris. Have I mentioned she's a dud*.

    * It would be more appropriate to say she was the least-worst option for LOTO though that penny hasn't dropped yet. She has an unusually high opinion of her own abilities.
    As a conservative I am content that Badenoch is the best leader for the party and she had an excellent conference and is appearing more in the media
    Her "excellent Conference" was mainly excellent because it has been talked up by loyalists like yourself. The fact it wasn't the anticipated clown show (much the same as Labour- no coughing, no letters falling off sign boards) it was deemed a win.
    Most commentators were complimentary and general it is accepted she had a good conference
    Most commentators said Starmer had a good conference until Farage offered his withering right to reply, which was given more of an airing and gained more traction than Starmer's original. And after that, polled voters stated they hated Starmer and his speech, even as mainstream commentators were still nodding in approval with Starmer.
    I may have misplaced the timeline, but wasn't that the conference which was overshadowed with Angela Rayner resigning? Fairly sure it was a bit of a shambles?
    No that was the "reset".

    The Conference was widely anticipated to be a disaster as King over the Water Burnham arrived to claim his crown. He left early with his tail between his legs and Starmer made a dreary but gaff- free speech which was hailed because contrary to expectations the wheels remained on the Labour bus. Then Farage struck like a Cobra...
    Yes, Nigel played a blinder that day. His whole career, and the hopes and dreams of his admirers, owed everything to a dislike of foreigners and those of the non-white hue, yet when Sir Keir mentioned this Nigel turned round with a tear in his eye, whispered 'I'm not a racialist', and at Sir Keir an affronted nation glowered.
    I just thought "cobra" appeared more in keeping with Nigel's current self promotion narrative than "whining snowflake".
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,501
    As opposed to other pollsters FON conducts its fieldwork over just one day . That’s rather restrictive and could affect the amount of up or down weighting needed . Its sample group is also likely to have a skew to certain demographics. Their polls though in terms of Reform vote share aren’t really massive outliers but they do seem to throw up more wildish looking results for the other parties .

  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,082
    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    FPT: "Out of curiosity, by what mechanism is it proposed to decarbonise shipping? "

    There are some projects looking to install CO2 capture on ships.

    Other approach is to use ammonia as a carbon-free fuel.

    Bingo.
    I actually joked about this on the last thread.

    None of that is anywhere near economic at the moment.
    There are plenty of other measure to reduce open going CO2 emissions which could be brought in, without spending billions on boondoggles.

    Ocean shipping accounts for less than 3% of total emissions. Decarbonising land based transport, which accounts for over five times that number) is far more practical in the near term.
    Even air transport would likely be more economically amenable to decarbonisation through the use of synthetic fuel (fuel costs are half of total shipping costs, while only around 20% of aviation).
    And of course increasing the cost of aviation would have the positive (from the POV of emissions) effect of reducing the total number of flights.
    Far less economically practical to significantly reduce the amount of ocean shipping than the number of airline flights.
    Trump trying to onshore everything by increasing tariffs has already at times reduced nautical emissions - as the ships simply don't sail as often...
    A woke king
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,213
    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    boulay said:



    rcs1000 said:

    FPT: "Out of curiosity, by what mechanism is it proposed to decarbonise shipping? "

    There are some projects looking to install CO2 capture on ships.

    Other approach is to use ammonia as a carbon-free fuel.

    I quite like the modern sails idea - see the Pyxis Ocean, whose sails were developed by a British company.
    I should probably research it myself but likely someone on here knows already but I would love to know how useful the modern airships being developed could be for cargo transport.

    I clearly have no idea how much weight they can shift, range, speed and susceptibility to bad weather but I have images of “sky trains” of them moving along below plane flight altitudes with perhaps one manned and the rest linked to it by satellite (if indeed all can’t be unmanned) delivering cargo that’s not “urgent”.

    Airships are not a viable transport method for cargo shipping. They can carry only limited amounts. They are very slow. And if the wind is against you, they are incredibly inefficient. (Or indeed, don't even work at all.)
    Isn't there (theoretically at least) quite a large niche for them between ocean shipping and air transport ?

    They can't carry as much as ships, but can carry a LOT more than airplanes. And while the (approximate) costs are very similar to shipping, they're also three to four times the speed, and don't require the same level of dedicated port infrastructure.

    And as an aside, would be the easiest form of air transport to decarbonise, given the huge surface area of a dirigible, and the way in which solar panels are getting lighter and more flexible.
    The problem here is mathematics.

    A typical 40 foot container, loaded, is going to weigh around 30 metric tonnes. (Let's keep the numbers simple.)

    That's just a single forty foot container.

    Given the buoyancy of helium compared to air, that requires (at the very least and before fuel, engines, etc) 28,700 cubic meters of helium.

    You rapidly run into the problem with airships that you need a masive volume of helium, which means a massive structure to hold it, which requires ever more powerful engines and more fuel.

    The numbers simply don't work beyond -possibly- relatively short trips in parts of the world where there is no wind and the roads are bad.
    Actually, it scales the other way. The optimum size for airships, not considering handling, is as big as possible. The structural fraction decreases as the airship gets larger, up to at least 1500 feet long.

    This is because the length of the airship grows much slower than the volume

    Capacity in Gross Lift Length Diameter
    cubic feet in tons in feet in feet
    2,000,000 60.7 643 79
    3,000,000 91.1 736 90.4
    4,000,000 121.4 810 99.5
    5,000,000 151.8 872 107.2
    6,000,000 182.2 927 113.9
    7,000,000 212.5 976 119.9
    8,000,000 242.8 1,021 125.5
    9,000,000 273.3 1,061 130.4
    10,000,000 303.6 1,100 135.1

    Was a table created by some experts in the field in the 1920s (Zeppelin, I think) - it's in the book by Maj. Whale on the British airship program.
    Smaller surface area (parasite and form drag, and vulnerability to wind) to volume ratio as it increases, too - cf. Brunel and his giant ships' design logic.
    Modern materials and aerodynamic analysis, which significantly expands the envelope of possible form factors, plus more powerful and manoeuvrable electric motors (powered by turbogenerators) make for much wider design possibilities.

    The only thing lacking is the very large amounts of capital needed to produce large prototypes.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,213

    Recently, I started reading Eric Topol’s Super Agers. Short summary: We can extend our healthy lives by up to 10 years, if we do the right things. I have been doing some of them since I turned 30, and plan to do more.

    One of those things is to have a strong social life, and for some of this that will include finding positive sites on the Internet to converse with other people.

    I think the moderators have done good work in making this site such a place, in difficult times. And so I thank them, and hope to help them in my own small way, at least until I turn 90, a little less than 8 years from now.

    Thank you!

    Live long and prosper, Jim.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,213

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    boulay said:



    rcs1000 said:

    FPT: "Out of curiosity, by what mechanism is it proposed to decarbonise shipping? "

    There are some projects looking to install CO2 capture on ships.

    Other approach is to use ammonia as a carbon-free fuel.

    I quite like the modern sails idea - see the Pyxis Ocean, whose sails were developed by a British company.
    I should probably research it myself but likely someone on here knows already but I would love to know how useful the modern airships being developed could be for cargo transport.

    I clearly have no idea how much weight they can shift, range, speed and susceptibility to bad weather but I have images of “sky trains” of them moving along below plane flight altitudes with perhaps one manned and the rest linked to it by satellite (if indeed all can’t be unmanned) delivering cargo that’s not “urgent”.

    Airships are not a viable transport method for cargo shipping. They can carry only limited amounts. They are very slow. And if the wind is against you, they are incredibly inefficient. (Or indeed, don't even work at all.)
    Isn't there (theoretically at least) quite a large niche for them between ocean shipping and air transport ?

    They can't carry as much as ships, but can carry a LOT more than airplanes. And while the (approximate) costs are very similar to shipping, they're also three to four times the speed, and don't require the same level of dedicated port infrastructure.

    And as an aside, would be the easiest form of air transport to decarbonise, given the huge surface area of a dirigible, and the way in which solar panels are getting lighter and more flexible.
    The problem here is mathematics.

    A typical 40 foot container, loaded, is going to weigh around 30 metric tonnes. (Let's keep the numbers simple.)

    That's just a single forty foot container.

    Given the buoyancy of helium compared to air, that requires (at the very least and before fuel, engines, etc) 28,700 cubic meters of helium.

    You rapidly run into the problem with airships that you need a masive volume of helium, which means a massive structure to hold it, which requires ever more powerful engines and more fuel.

    The numbers simply don't work beyond -possibly- relatively short trips in parts of the world where there is no wind and the roads are bad.
    Actually, it scales the other way. The optimum size for airships, not considering handling, is as big as possible. The structural fraction decreases as the airship gets larger, up to at least 1500 feet long.

    This is because the length of the airship grows much slower than the volume

    Capacity in Gross Lift Length Diameter
    cubic feet in tons in feet in feet
    2,000,000 60.7 643 79
    3,000,000 91.1 736 90.4
    4,000,000 121.4 810 99.5
    5,000,000 151.8 872 107.2
    6,000,000 182.2 927 113.9
    7,000,000 212.5 976 119.9
    8,000,000 242.8 1,021 125.5
    9,000,000 273.3 1,061 130.4
    10,000,000 303.6 1,100 135.1

    Was a table created by some experts in the field in the 1920s (Zeppelin, I think) - it's in the book by Maj. Whale on the British airship program.
    Smaller surface area (parasite and form drag, and vulnerability to wind) to volume ratio as it increases, too - cf. Brunel and his giant ships' design logic.
    But the side on wide resistance is insurmountable - even for small airships. They get tossed around by the wind. Unless you fly only on the calmest days.

    And that is why the airships aren't coming back.
    Some of the designs being studies are highly oblate spheroids, which don't have sides...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,213
    Every state should have this ballot initiative.

    Montana has found a way to side step Citizens United…they proposed a ballot initiative for the 2026 election that would prohibit corporations from spending money in state elections.

    The state plans on bypassing current law by focusing on state corporate law, which defines the powers of the corporations they create.

    Corporations exist because states allow them to exist. Corporations already have built on advantages such as tax breaks and limited liability. Montana is saying those privileges don’t include the power to buy elections.

    Montana says their new Constitutional amendment says they grant power to do business but not buy elections.

    The SC says you can’t limit corporate speech. Montana says corporations never had speech in the first place.

    This will be interesting to follow.

    https://x.com/PrezLives2022/status/1978955372355342808
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,636
    Sean_F said:

    Cicero said:

    What an awful brother the King is.

    King Charles considers removing Prince Andrew’s Duke of York title

    Relations between the brothers are said to be at tipping point after scandals involving Jeffrey Epstein and alleged spying by China


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/royal-family/article/king-charles-prince-andrew-duke-york-title-news-hlcgmjlwb

    The response of the King seems quite mild, given the fact that Andrew has clearly misled the court as well as the media concerning his relationship with the Epstein circle. If I were the King I would be incandescent that his brother has clearly lied to his face. More to the point, there is the open question of what else Andrew has been doing that is, shall we say, unlikely to be popular in the country at large.

    If, as I think we may suspect, it includes highly problematic financial arrangements, I think that Andrew will be exiled to the outer darkness for the rest of his life. Certainly the Prince of Wales seems to be of this opinion. This is notwithstanding the attempts of Beatrice and Eugenie to stay in good standing with the court, which I think are completely doomed.

    Ironically it is not the size of the Royal family that is the problem- the Duke of Kent and the Gloucesters have been doing sterling work, as have the Edinburghs and the Princess Royal and Sir Tim... even Zara and Mike. The Yorks on the other hand...
    It’s rare for someone not to possess a single redeeming feature, but I think Andrew achieves that distinction.

    A friend of mine wrote a wonderful adult Harry Potter fanfic, where even Bellatrix is horrified by what she sees inside Andrew’s mind. She hands him over to Fenrir Greyback, to punish as he sees fit.

    “Like you, Fenrir’s an animal, but even so, he has some standards, and he thinks you’ve fallen short of them.”
    The curious thing is that the late Queen seemed very fond of Andrew. Perhaps it was as simple as being a person that only a mother could love.
  • Exclusive: Bridget Phillipson Says Electing Lucy Powell Deputy Labour Leader Will Cost Party Next Election

    https://x.com/HuffPostUKPol/status/1979216057869971739
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,329
    edited October 17
    The Conservatives say they will hand ex-Reform MP Rupert Lowe a seat on an influential Commons committee as he "shares our values on cutting waste". The Great Yarmouth MP will take one of the three seats reserved for Tories on the public accounts committee, which oversees government spending.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,144
    boulay said:

    rcs1000 said:

    boulay said:



    rcs1000 said:

    FPT: "Out of curiosity, by what mechanism is it proposed to decarbonise shipping? "

    There are some projects looking to install CO2 capture on ships.

    Other approach is to use ammonia as a carbon-free fuel.

    I quite like the modern sails idea - see the Pyxis Ocean, whose sails were developed by a British company.
    I should probably research it myself but likely someone on here knows already but I would love to know how useful the modern airships being developed could be for cargo transport.

    I clearly have no idea how much weight they can shift, range, speed and susceptibility to bad weather but I have images of “sky trains” of them moving along below plane flight altitudes with perhaps one manned and the rest linked to it by satellite (if indeed all can’t be unmanned) delivering cargo that’s not “urgent”.

    Airships are not a viable transport method for cargo shipping. They can carry only limited amounts. They are very slow. And if the wind is against you, they are incredibly inefficient. (Or indeed, don't even work at all.)
    Shame, I liked the idea of these quiet whale like pods floating across the channel delivering goods to and from France for example at a leisurely pace.
    They're great. All you need to do is avoid being pigheaded about where your payload is going to end up. Go with the flow etc.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,636
    On topic. FON has a distinctive sample method, but perhaps one that picks up the politically disengaged a bit better. Whether they truly turn out to vote is the key question.

    Presumably the Postcode Lottery allows a good geographic spread, albeit one to low information gamblers. It might be of less interest to some demographics.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,633
    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    boulay said:



    rcs1000 said:

    FPT: "Out of curiosity, by what mechanism is it proposed to decarbonise shipping? "

    There are some projects looking to install CO2 capture on ships.

    Other approach is to use ammonia as a carbon-free fuel.

    I quite like the modern sails idea - see the Pyxis Ocean, whose sails were developed by a British company.
    I should probably research it myself but likely someone on here knows already but I would love to know how useful the modern airships being developed could be for cargo transport.

    I clearly have no idea how much weight they can shift, range, speed and susceptibility to bad weather but I have images of “sky trains” of them moving along below plane flight altitudes with perhaps one manned and the rest linked to it by satellite (if indeed all can’t be unmanned) delivering cargo that’s not “urgent”.

    Airships are not a viable transport method for cargo shipping. They can carry only limited amounts. They are very slow. And if the wind is against you, they are incredibly inefficient. (Or indeed, don't even work at all.)
    Isn't there (theoretically at least) quite a large niche for them between ocean shipping and air transport ?

    They can't carry as much as ships, but can carry a LOT more than airplanes. And while the (approximate) costs are very similar to shipping, they're also three to four times the speed, and don't require the same level of dedicated port infrastructure.

    And as an aside, would be the easiest form of air transport to decarbonise, given the huge surface area of a dirigible, and the way in which solar panels are getting lighter and more flexible.
    The problem here is mathematics.

    A typical 40 foot container, loaded, is going to weigh around 30 metric tonnes. (Let's keep the numbers simple.)

    That's just a single forty foot container.

    Given the buoyancy of helium compared to air, that requires (at the very least and before fuel, engines, etc) 28,700 cubic meters of helium.

    You rapidly run into the problem with airships that you need a masive volume of helium, which means a massive structure to hold it, which requires ever more powerful engines and more fuel.

    The numbers simply don't work beyond -possibly- relatively short trips in parts of the world where there is no wind and the roads are bad.
    Actually, it scales the other way. The optimum size for airships, not considering handling, is as big as possible. The structural fraction decreases as the airship gets larger, up to at least 1500 feet long.

    This is because the length of the airship grows much slower than the volume

    Capacity in Gross Lift Length Diameter
    cubic feet in tons in feet in feet
    2,000,000 60.7 643 79
    3,000,000 91.1 736 90.4
    4,000,000 121.4 810 99.5
    5,000,000 151.8 872 107.2
    6,000,000 182.2 927 113.9
    7,000,000 212.5 976 119.9
    8,000,000 242.8 1,021 125.5
    9,000,000 273.3 1,061 130.4
    10,000,000 303.6 1,100 135.1

    Was a table created by some experts in the field in the 1920s (Zeppelin, I think) - it's in the book by Maj. Whale on the British airship program.
    Smaller surface area (parasite and form drag, and vulnerability to wind) to volume ratio as it increases, too - cf. Brunel and his giant ships' design logic.
    Modern materials and aerodynamic analysis, which significantly expands the envelope of possible form factors, plus more powerful and manoeuvrable electric motors (powered by turbogenerators) make for much wider design possibilities.

    The only thing lacking is the very large amounts of capital needed to produce large prototypes.
    Sigh

    No amount of design can get around the problem that wind pressure on the side of an airship represents many thousands of tons of force. At low wind speeds.

    So your airship gets thrown around by the wind.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,636

    Exclusive: Bridget Phillipson Says Electing Lucy Powell Deputy Labour Leader Will Cost Party Next Election

    https://x.com/HuffPostUKPol/status/1979216057869971739

    I think that ship has sailed whoever the Deputy Leader is.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,329

    Exclusive: Bridget Phillipson Says Electing Lucy Powell Deputy Labour Leader Will Cost Party Next Election

    https://x.com/HuffPostUKPol/status/1979216057869971739

    I mean we know Lucy Powell is quite shit, but not sure that is Labour's core issue.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,633
    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    boulay said:



    rcs1000 said:

    FPT: "Out of curiosity, by what mechanism is it proposed to decarbonise shipping? "

    There are some projects looking to install CO2 capture on ships.

    Other approach is to use ammonia as a carbon-free fuel.

    I quite like the modern sails idea - see the Pyxis Ocean, whose sails were developed by a British company.
    I should probably research it myself but likely someone on here knows already but I would love to know how useful the modern airships being developed could be for cargo transport.

    I clearly have no idea how much weight they can shift, range, speed and susceptibility to bad weather but I have images of “sky trains” of them moving along below plane flight altitudes with perhaps one manned and the rest linked to it by satellite (if indeed all can’t be unmanned) delivering cargo that’s not “urgent”.

    Airships are not a viable transport method for cargo shipping. They can carry only limited amounts. They are very slow. And if the wind is against you, they are incredibly inefficient. (Or indeed, don't even work at all.)
    Isn't there (theoretically at least) quite a large niche for them between ocean shipping and air transport ?

    They can't carry as much as ships, but can carry a LOT more than airplanes. And while the (approximate) costs are very similar to shipping, they're also three to four times the speed, and don't require the same level of dedicated port infrastructure.

    And as an aside, would be the easiest form of air transport to decarbonise, given the huge surface area of a dirigible, and the way in which solar panels are getting lighter and more flexible.
    The problem here is mathematics.

    A typical 40 foot container, loaded, is going to weigh around 30 metric tonnes. (Let's keep the numbers simple.)

    That's just a single forty foot container.

    Given the buoyancy of helium compared to air, that requires (at the very least and before fuel, engines, etc) 28,700 cubic meters of helium.

    You rapidly run into the problem with airships that you need a masive volume of helium, which means a massive structure to hold it, which requires ever more powerful engines and more fuel.

    The numbers simply don't work beyond -possibly- relatively short trips in parts of the world where there is no wind and the roads are bad.
    Actually, it scales the other way. The optimum size for airships, not considering handling, is as big as possible. The structural fraction decreases as the airship gets larger, up to at least 1500 feet long.

    This is because the length of the airship grows much slower than the volume

    Capacity in Gross Lift Length Diameter
    cubic feet in tons in feet in feet
    2,000,000 60.7 643 79
    3,000,000 91.1 736 90.4
    4,000,000 121.4 810 99.5
    5,000,000 151.8 872 107.2
    6,000,000 182.2 927 113.9
    7,000,000 212.5 976 119.9
    8,000,000 242.8 1,021 125.5
    9,000,000 273.3 1,061 130.4
    10,000,000 303.6 1,100 135.1

    Was a table created by some experts in the field in the 1920s (Zeppelin, I think) - it's in the book by Maj. Whale on the British airship program.
    Smaller surface area (parasite and form drag, and vulnerability to wind) to volume ratio as it increases, too - cf. Brunel and his giant ships' design logic.
    But the side on wide resistance is insurmountable - even for small airships. They get tossed around by the wind. Unless you fly only on the calmest days.

    And that is why the airships aren't coming back.
    Some of the designs being studies are highly oblate spheroids, which don't have sides...
    The volume is somewhere. Then you’ve create a manta ray shaped air ship that is incredibly vulnerable to updrafts. And down drafts.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,999
    Foxy said:

    On topic. FON has a distinctive sample method, but perhaps one that picks up the politically disengaged a bit better. Whether they truly turn out to vote is the key question.

    Presumably the Postcode Lottery allows a good geographic spread, albeit one to low information gamblers. It might be of less interest to some demographics.

    I suspect it will do a good job of reaching some voters other panels do not. On the other hand, it may do a poor job reaching other voters that panels do well with. They can probably ameliorate most issues with proper weighting, and their record (although limited) isn't bad so far.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,636
    How Only Fans for politics works in the FT:



    "You start with a basic template — how the elite is lying to you. And then you just repackage it every day with some facts or a quote you nicked off X.com. You will need enough wit to disguise the fact you are writing the same thing every day, but not that much. And keep it hyperbolic. No one is paying £10 a month for milksop moderation. They want the truth that no one else dares tell them, even if the reason is because that it isn’t actually true."

    "You might start off on a real issue, like immigration, but you need to turn it into a conspiracy if you want lift-off. A good post or pod might be about the dodgy stat you’ve just uncovered (found in an ONS press release) which “proves they are lying to you”. In fact, with ChatGPT you probably don’t even have to write it yourself most days."

    https://bsky.app/profile/financialtimes.com/post/3m3ezd3o4d72b

    It looks to be outside the paywall.

    Thank Heaven we have no one like that on PB. 😅

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,345
    Number 10 has asked West Midlands to set out what extra resource they need to police the game.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,832

    Exclusive: Bridget Phillipson Says Electing Lucy Powell Deputy Labour Leader Will Cost Party Next Election

    https://x.com/HuffPostUKPol/status/1979216057869971739

    I mean we know Lucy Powell is quite shit, but not sure that is Labour's core issue.
    I doubt the average voter has even heard of Lucy Powell, let alone will decide their vote on whether she is Labour Deputy Leader or not
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,832
    edited October 17
    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cicero said:

    What an awful brother the King is.

    King Charles considers removing Prince Andrew’s Duke of York title

    Relations between the brothers are said to be at tipping point after scandals involving Jeffrey Epstein and alleged spying by China


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/royal-family/article/king-charles-prince-andrew-duke-york-title-news-hlcgmjlwb

    The response of the King seems quite mild, given the fact that Andrew has clearly misled the court as well as the media concerning his relationship with the Epstein circle. If I were the King I would be incandescent that his brother has clearly lied to his face. More to the point, there is the open question of what else Andrew has been doing that is, shall we say, unlikely to be popular in the country at large.

    If, as I think we may suspect, it includes highly problematic financial arrangements, I think that Andrew will be exiled to the outer darkness for the rest of his life. Certainly the Prince of Wales seems to be of this opinion. This is notwithstanding the attempts of Beatrice and Eugenie to stay in good standing with the court, which I think are completely doomed.

    Ironically it is not the size of the Royal family that is the problem- the Duke of Kent and the Gloucesters have been doing sterling work, as have the Edinburghs and the Princess Royal and Sir Tim... even Zara and Mike. The Yorks on the other hand...
    It’s rare for someone not to possess a single redeeming feature, but I think Andrew achieves that distinction.

    A friend of mine wrote a wonderful adult Harry Potter fanfic, where even Bellatrix is horrified by what she sees inside Andrew’s mind. She hands him over to Fenrir Greyback, to punish as he sees fit.

    “Like you, Fenrir’s an animal, but even so, he has some standards, and he thinks you’ve fallen short of them.”
    The curious thing is that the late Queen seemed very fond of Andrew. Perhaps it was as simple as being a person that only a mother could love.
    In his 20s Andrew was actually quite good looking and dashing and after having flown helicopters in the Falklands War relatively popular as a war hero.

    His older brother though was seen as rather stuffy, old fashioned, with overly large ears and strange interests such as talking to trees and soon overshadowed by his much more glamorous and charismatic and warm wife Princess Diana
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,307

    Exclusive: Bridget Phillipson Says Electing Lucy Powell Deputy Labour Leader Will Cost Party Next Election

    https://x.com/HuffPostUKPol/status/1979216057869971739

    I mean we know Lucy Powell is quite shit, but not sure that is Labour's core issue.
    It's certainly not aoparent there's a massive election-determining chasm in brilliance between Powell and Phillipson.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,999
    Foxy said:

    How Only Fans for politics works in the FT:



    "You start with a basic template — how the elite is lying to you. And then you just repackage it every day with some facts or a quote you nicked off X.com. You will need enough wit to disguise the fact you are writing the same thing every day, but not that much. And keep it hyperbolic. No one is paying £10 a month for milksop moderation. They want the truth that no one else dares tell them, even if the reason is because that it isn’t actually true."

    "You might start off on a real issue, like immigration, but you need to turn it into a conspiracy if you want lift-off. A good post or pod might be about the dodgy stat you’ve just uncovered (found in an ONS press release) which “proves they are lying to you”. In fact, with ChatGPT you probably don’t even have to write it yourself most days."

    https://bsky.app/profile/financialtimes.com/post/3m3ezd3o4d72b

    It looks to be outside the paywall.

    Thank Heaven we have no one like that on PB. 😅

    Indeed: and then you end up with the Department of Health and Human Services investigating chemtrails.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 16,320
    HYUFD said:

    Exclusive: Bridget Phillipson Says Electing Lucy Powell Deputy Labour Leader Will Cost Party Next Election

    https://x.com/HuffPostUKPol/status/1979216057869971739

    I mean we know Lucy Powell is quite shit, but not sure that is Labour's core issue.
    I doubt the average voter has even heard of Lucy Powell, let alone will decide their vote on whether she is Labour Deputy Leader or not
    We’ve had a lot of newsworthy Lucys recently. Bloodthirsty baby killer / innocent victim of miscarriage of justice Lucy Letby, bloodthirsty inciter of racist Arson / blessed martyr of the woke mafia Lucy Connolly, and now [Burnham stan account / saviour of Labour?] Lucy Powell.

    Whither the next Lucy?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,999
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cicero said:

    What an awful brother the King is.

    King Charles considers removing Prince Andrew’s Duke of York title

    Relations between the brothers are said to be at tipping point after scandals involving Jeffrey Epstein and alleged spying by China


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/royal-family/article/king-charles-prince-andrew-duke-york-title-news-hlcgmjlwb

    The response of the King seems quite mild, given the fact that Andrew has clearly misled the court as well as the media concerning his relationship with the Epstein circle. If I were the King I would be incandescent that his brother has clearly lied to his face. More to the point, there is the open question of what else Andrew has been doing that is, shall we say, unlikely to be popular in the country at large.

    If, as I think we may suspect, it includes highly problematic financial arrangements, I think that Andrew will be exiled to the outer darkness for the rest of his life. Certainly the Prince of Wales seems to be of this opinion. This is notwithstanding the attempts of Beatrice and Eugenie to stay in good standing with the court, which I think are completely doomed.

    Ironically it is not the size of the Royal family that is the problem- the Duke of Kent and the Gloucesters have been doing sterling work, as have the Edinburghs and the Princess Royal and Sir Tim... even Zara and Mike. The Yorks on the other hand...
    It’s rare for someone not to possess a single redeeming feature, but I think Andrew achieves that distinction.

    A friend of mine wrote a wonderful adult Harry Potter fanfic, where even Bellatrix is horrified by what she sees inside Andrew’s mind. She hands him over to Fenrir Greyback, to punish as he sees fit.

    “Like you, Fenrir’s an animal, but even so, he has some standards, and he thinks you’ve fallen short of them.”
    The curious thing is that the late Queen seemed very fond of Andrew. Perhaps it was as simple as being a person that only a mother could love.
    In his 20s Andrew was actually quite good looking and dashing and after having flown helicopters in the Falklands War relatively popular as a war hero.

    His older brother though was seen as rather stuffy, old fashioned, with overly large ears and strange interests such as talking to trees and soon overshadowed by his much more glamorous and charismatic and warm wife Princess Diana
    You know, flying helicopters is actually quite hard. Flying them on and off ships is even harder. What a shame he couldn't stick with the whole piloting thing.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,999
    Cookie said:

    Exclusive: Bridget Phillipson Says Electing Lucy Powell Deputy Labour Leader Will Cost Party Next Election

    https://x.com/HuffPostUKPol/status/1979216057869971739

    I mean we know Lucy Powell is quite shit, but not sure that is Labour's core issue.
    It's certainly not aoparent there's a massive election-determining chasm in brilliance between Powell and Phillipson.
    There's definitely some kind of chasm involved though.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 16,320
    Foxy said:

    On topic. FON has a distinctive sample method, but perhaps one that picks up the politically disengaged a bit better. Whether they truly turn out to vote is the key question.

    Presumably the Postcode Lottery allows a good geographic spread, albeit one to low information gamblers. It might be of less interest to some demographics.

    Can’t imagine many Corbyn/Sultana-curious voters partake in that particular game.
  • tlg86 said:

    Number 10 has asked West Midlands to set out what extra resource they need to police the game.

    Policing the game isn't the issue, policing the antisemites on the streets is.

    The Police need to do their job, not say that having no Jews will make it easier to keep the antisemites non-violent.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,999

    tlg86 said:

    Number 10 has asked West Midlands to set out what extra resource they need to police the game.

    Policing the game isn't the issue, policing the antisemites on the streets is.

    The Police need to do their job, not say that having no Jews will make it easier to keep the antisemites non-violent.
    It really shouldn't be a problem though: away fans should be bussed in, as they are for a great many football matches in the UK.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,618
    On topic, the question is surely whether people who play post code lottery are more typical of the UK public than, say, those willing to be on a Yougov panel and get paid seriously under the NMW for filling in their surveys. I think the answer might well be yes.
  • TimS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Exclusive: Bridget Phillipson Says Electing Lucy Powell Deputy Labour Leader Will Cost Party Next Election

    https://x.com/HuffPostUKPol/status/1979216057869971739

    I mean we know Lucy Powell is quite shit, but not sure that is Labour's core issue.
    I doubt the average voter has even heard of Lucy Powell, let alone will decide their vote on whether she is Labour Deputy Leader or not
    We’ve had a lot of newsworthy Lucys recently. Bloodthirsty baby killer / innocent victim of miscarriage of justice Lucy Letby, bloodthirsty inciter of racist Arson / blessed martyr of the woke mafia Lucy Connolly, and now [Burnham stan account / saviour of Labour?] Lucy Powell.

    Whither the next Lucy?
    In Liu of another Lucy there might be some angels related to Charlie.
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