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This is why Find Out Now polls are such outliers – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,738
edited October 17 in General
This is why Find Out Now polls are such outliers – politicalbetting.com

Given FindOutNow polls keep making news it's worth saying a bit more about their methodology.Unlike other online pollsters it doesn't use a panel of people who've signed up to do polls. Instead they ask a small number of Qs to people playing the Pick my Postcode lottery. (Thread)

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • My holiday starts now and on that topic.

    FTSE plunges as US regional banks warn over credit fraud exposure

    The FTSE 100 plunged as warnings over bad bank loans in the US spooked investors around the world.

    The UK’s flagship stock index, which is heavily weighted towards the financial sector, sank by 1.5pc as trading began in London.

    HSBC, the second most-valuable company on the FTSE 100, and rivals including Lloyds Bank and Natwest plummeted by around 2.5pc each.

    Global stocks were hit hard overnight, with the Nikkei 225 down as much as 1.6pc and the Hang Seng in Hong Kong declining by 2pc as they tracked heavy losses on Wall Street. The Dax in Germany this morning fell by more than 2pc and the Cac 40 in France dropped more than 1pc.

    Sentiment has been rocked by concerns over potentially hidden stress in the network of loans to businesses handed out by US banks, which have $4.5 trillion of exposure to loans from financial institutions outside the banking sector.

    Tensions have been heightened following the recent bankruptcies of auto lender Tricolor and auto parts maker First Brands, which triggered warnings from top financiers over lending standards in the $3 trillion private credit market.

    This week the head of the IMF, Kristalina Georgieva, said the so-called shadow banking sector keeps her “awake at night” while JP Morgan boss Jamie Dimon warned “when you see one cockroach, there’s probably more”.

    Stephen Innes of SPI Asset Management said: “Regional banks have become the canaries in the credit coal mine, and their chirping sounds suspiciously weak.”

    US banking stocks plunged on Thursday after Zions Bancorporation, a Utah-based lender, said it would write off $50m on two loans, while Phoenix-based Western Alliance said it was starting legal proceedings over a bad loan said to be worth $100m.

    Shares in Zions fell by more than 13pc, while Western Alliance Bancorp dropped by nearly 11pc. The twin warnings also dragged down shares in similar institutions. The SPDR S&P Regional Banking ETF, which tracks shares in regional US lenders, was down more than 6pc.

    Dilin Wu, an analyst at Pepperstone Group said: “This US banking shock is more about market sentiment and liquidity than a systemic credit collapse.

    “It’s a good case of global risk aversion at the moment — fundamentals are okay, but fear is dominating the trading desks.”


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/10/17/us-banks-credit-loans-fraud-ftse-100-markets-latest/
  • Oh, was that a first?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 40,507

    Oh, was that a first?

    No
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,210

    Oh, was that a first?

    You crash the markets, and you want credit for that ?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,410
    I thought the public hated a postcode lottery?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,348

    I thought the public hated a postcode lottery?

    Fpt - I thought the name sounded familiar! 😛
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,817
    edited October 17
    FON are picking up the apathetic who don't always vote but moving to Reform and a lesser extent the Greens as a protest vote, Their Reform voteshare though is not a million miles off other pollsters though even if a bit higher at 32%.

    If the anti Farage opposition is divided Reform could win a landslide majority on 32%, as Starmer Labour won a big majority last year on just 33% with the right divided between the Tories and Reform.

    If however Farage hating voters tactically vote against Reform for whichever party currently holds the parliamentary seat they live in, then a hung parliament is still very possible, maybe even a Labour minority government propped up by the LDs
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,694
    Well that explains it. People who do the 'postcode lottery' are going to be skewed towards Reform. Course they are. Knock 5 pts off to get a better estimate. That's what I'll be doing from now on anyway. Really useful header, thank you.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,422

    My holiday starts now and on that topic.

    FTSE plunges as US regional banks warn over credit fraud exposure

    The FTSE 100 plunged as warnings over bad bank loans in the US spooked investors around the world.

    The UK’s flagship stock index, which is heavily weighted towards the financial sector, sank by 1.5pc as trading began in London.

    HSBC, the second most-valuable company on the FTSE 100, and rivals including Lloyds Bank and Natwest plummeted by around 2.5pc each.

    Global stocks were hit hard overnight, with the Nikkei 225 down as much as 1.6pc and the Hang Seng in Hong Kong declining by 2pc as they tracked heavy losses on Wall Street. The Dax in Germany this morning fell by more than 2pc and the Cac 40 in France dropped more than 1pc.

    Sentiment has been rocked by concerns over potentially hidden stress in the network of loans to businesses handed out by US banks, which have $4.5 trillion of exposure to loans from financial institutions outside the banking sector.

    Tensions have been heightened following the recent bankruptcies of auto lender Tricolor and auto parts maker First Brands, which triggered warnings from top financiers over lending standards in the $3 trillion private credit market.

    This week the head of the IMF, Kristalina Georgieva, said the so-called shadow banking sector keeps her “awake at night” while JP Morgan boss Jamie Dimon warned “when you see one cockroach, there’s probably more”.

    Stephen Innes of SPI Asset Management said: “Regional banks have become the canaries in the credit coal mine, and their chirping sounds suspiciously weak.”

    US banking stocks plunged on Thursday after Zions Bancorporation, a Utah-based lender, said it would write off $50m on two loans, while Phoenix-based Western Alliance said it was starting legal proceedings over a bad loan said to be worth $100m.

    Shares in Zions fell by more than 13pc, while Western Alliance Bancorp dropped by nearly 11pc. The twin warnings also dragged down shares in similar institutions. The SPDR S&P Regional Banking ETF, which tracks shares in regional US lenders, was down more than 6pc.

    Dilin Wu, an analyst at Pepperstone Group said: “This US banking shock is more about market sentiment and liquidity than a systemic credit collapse.

    “It’s a good case of global risk aversion at the moment — fundamentals are okay, but fear is dominating the trading desks.”


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/10/17/us-banks-credit-loans-fraud-ftse-100-markets-latest/

    Markets don't react.

    They overreact.
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,567

    My holiday starts now and on that topic.

    FTSE plunges as US regional banks warn over credit fraud exposure

    The FTSE 100 plunged as warnings over bad bank loans in the US spooked investors around the world.

    The UK’s flagship stock index, which is heavily weighted towards the financial sector, sank by 1.5pc as trading began in London.

    HSBC, the second most-valuable company on the FTSE 100, and rivals including Lloyds Bank and Natwest plummeted by around 2.5pc each.

    Global stocks were hit hard overnight, with the Nikkei 225 down as much as 1.6pc and the Hang Seng in Hong Kong declining by 2pc as they tracked heavy losses on Wall Street. The Dax in Germany this morning fell by more than 2pc and the Cac 40 in France dropped more than 1pc.

    Sentiment has been rocked by concerns over potentially hidden stress in the network of loans to businesses handed out by US banks, which have $4.5 trillion of exposure to loans from financial institutions outside the banking sector.

    Tensions have been heightened following the recent bankruptcies of auto lender Tricolor and auto parts maker First Brands, which triggered warnings from top financiers over lending standards in the $3 trillion private credit market.

    This week the head of the IMF, Kristalina Georgieva, said the so-called shadow banking sector keeps her “awake at night” while JP Morgan boss Jamie Dimon warned “when you see one cockroach, there’s probably more”.

    Stephen Innes of SPI Asset Management said: “Regional banks have become the canaries in the credit coal mine, and their chirping sounds suspiciously weak.”

    US banking stocks plunged on Thursday after Zions Bancorporation, a Utah-based lender, said it would write off $50m on two loans, while Phoenix-based Western Alliance said it was starting legal proceedings over a bad loan said to be worth $100m.

    Shares in Zions fell by more than 13pc, while Western Alliance Bancorp dropped by nearly 11pc. The twin warnings also dragged down shares in similar institutions. The SPDR S&P Regional Banking ETF, which tracks shares in regional US lenders, was down more than 6pc.

    Dilin Wu, an analyst at Pepperstone Group said: “This US banking shock is more about market sentiment and liquidity than a systemic credit collapse.

    “It’s a good case of global risk aversion at the moment — fundamentals are okay, but fear is dominating the trading desks.”


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/10/17/us-banks-credit-loans-fraud-ftse-100-markets-latest/

    ‘Plunged’ 🙄

    It’s down a small amount and has recovered a bit of it.

    Over the last 12 months it is well up.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,370
    No, but then neither are the people who sign up to be part of the Yougov panel

    In both cases they presumably weight the samples to be representative
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,567

    I thought the public hated a postcode lottery?

    A guy I used to work with won 250K on it.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,769
    Are FON targets the same as PB. Punting in the hope of a lifestyle change that will likely not happen

    Seats taken by LibLabCon in the last 3 elections 596 ,580 , 592 or 92%, 89% and 91%.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,108
    Markets are all at perilous highs, given the reasons for global instability and uncertainty that anyone who watches the news can reel off. No wonder gold is also at a record high.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,410

    I thought the public hated a postcode lottery?

    Fpt - I thought the name sounded familiar! 😛
    It would certainly take a braver man than me to go there.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 66,067
    Surely the only metric that counts is: Are their polling predictions accurate?

    And I believe Find Out Now have a pretty good record. But I am happy to be schooled, if I’m wrong
  • eekeek Posts: 31,529
    edited October 17
    kinabalu said:

    Well that explains it. People who do the 'postcode lottery' are going to be skewed towards Reform. Course they are. Knock 5 pts off to get a better estimate. That's what I'll be doing from now on anyway. Really useful header, thank you.

    This isn't the postcode lottery - it's a free website that basically has a daily free prize drawin return for watching adverts or answering questions.

    Now in theory with enough people you can get an accurate representation of the country but I suspect it's going to be biased towards cash poor, time rich people - i.e. Reform voters

  • LeonLeon Posts: 66,067
    If anyone needs cheering up about the state of the country - ie all of us - I’ve just landed at LHR from Seattle and as I disembarked three cute American girls were excitedly discussing how glad they were to be in london (first time, I surmised) and their chances of falling in love with a British guy (they seemed really keen on this idea)

    So, someone still fancies us, for all our problems
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 68,495
    Leon said:

    If anyone needs cheering up about the state of the country - ie all of us - I’ve just landed at LHR from Seattle and as I disembarked three cute American girls were excitedly discussing how glad they were to be in london (first time, I surmised) and their chances of falling in love with a British guy (they seemed really keen on this idea)

    So, someone still fancies us, for all our problems

    Probably watched 'Notting Hill' or 'Four Weddings' too many times.
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,567
    Leon said:

    If anyone needs cheering up about the state of the country - ie all of us - I’ve just landed at LHR from Seattle and as I disembarked three cute American girls were excitedly discussing how glad they were to be in london (first time, I surmised) and their chances of falling in love with a British guy (they seemed really keen on this idea)

    So, someone still fancies us, for all our problems

    Is a foursome on the cards ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,210
    Congrats to our new, in house Pentagon press corps

    The Federalist, the Epoch Times, OAN, Turkish newspaper Akşam, three individuals from the Turkish state-run Anadolu Agency, two Turkish freelancers, a reporter for the Australian, an Afghan freelancer; and three lesser-known operations, AWPS News, the India Globe and a blog called USA Journal Korea.

    https://x.com/samstein/status/1978917775256228170

    Seems there might be a gap in the market for the Knappers' Gazette ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,817
    edited October 17
    Leon said:

    If anyone needs cheering up about the state of the country - ie all of us - I’ve just landed at LHR from Seattle and as I disembarked three cute American girls were excitedly discussing how glad they were to be in london (first time, I surmised) and their chances of falling in love with a British guy (they seemed really keen on this idea)

    So, someone still fancies us, for all our problems

    Or more specifically fancies London and London based British males, I doubt they will be visiting Stoke or Sunderland or Merthyr Tydfil looking for a British guy (more's the pity)
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,641
    FPT: "Out of curiosity, by what mechanism is it proposed to decarbonise shipping? "

    There are some projects looking to install CO2 capture on ships.

    Other approach is to use ammonia as a carbon-free fuel.
  • The one thing that does seem to be happening is labour are not stemming the tide of unpopularity, and must be extremely worried about the trend especially heading into May 26 elections
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,615

    Sir Keir has his enemies, but his intervention over the Maccabi ban is perhaps one of the bravest moves by a British prime minister on a point of principle that I can recall. If the ban is overturned (as I suspect it will be imminently) then any ensuing trouble will be his sole responsibility and he will have to go. To quote Andy Marr in another context: '... it would be entirely ungracious, even for his critics, not to acknowledge that tonight he stands as a larger man and a stronger prime minister as a result.'

    Starmer should not be involving himself in operational police decision making.
    Is interesting how so often politicians use that as a get out or use it to shut down anybody criticising the police decisions, then all of a sudden they wade in.
    I recall when Sir Ian Blair said that accidentally shooting brown people was just one of those things.

    Boris Johnson told him that he’d lost the confidence of the people of London. And so another head of the Met resigned.

    This was condemned by some as “politicising an operational decision”.

    Policing is political - it’s ultimately controlled by democratically elected politicians.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 66,067

    Leon said:

    If anyone needs cheering up about the state of the country - ie all of us - I’ve just landed at LHR from Seattle and as I disembarked three cute American girls were excitedly discussing how glad they were to be in london (first time, I surmised) and their chances of falling in love with a British guy (they seemed really keen on this idea)

    So, someone still fancies us, for all our problems

    Probably watched 'Notting Hill' or 'Four Weddings' too many times.
    “Bagging a Brit” is a definite thing among young American women. I have benefited from the proclivity a couple of times
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,522
    Leon said:

    If anyone needs cheering up about the state of the country - ie all of us - I’ve just landed at LHR from Seattle and as I disembarked three cute American girls were excitedly discussing how glad they were to be in london (first time, I surmised) and their chances of falling in love with a British guy (they seemed really keen on this idea)

    So, someone still fancies us, for all our problems

    And you stood up to your full height, puffed out your chest but they just ran past?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,641
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    If anyone needs cheering up about the state of the country - ie all of us - I’ve just landed at LHR from Seattle and as I disembarked three cute American girls were excitedly discussing how glad they were to be in london (first time, I surmised) and their chances of falling in love with a British guy (they seemed really keen on this idea)

    So, someone still fancies us, for all our problems

    Probably watched 'Notting Hill' or 'Four Weddings' too many times.
    “Bagging a Brit” is a definite thing among young American women. I have benefited from the proclivity a couple of times
    That was a sorority forfeit.
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,567
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    If anyone needs cheering up about the state of the country - ie all of us - I’ve just landed at LHR from Seattle and as I disembarked three cute American girls were excitedly discussing how glad they were to be in london (first time, I surmised) and their chances of falling in love with a British guy (they seemed really keen on this idea)

    So, someone still fancies us, for all our problems

    Probably watched 'Notting Hill' or 'Four Weddings' too many times.
    “Bagging a Brit” is a definite thing among young American women. I have benefited from the proclivity a couple of times
    Bagging or Tea-bagging

    When I was in the USA for my mates wedding I had more than one woman tell me they loved my accent. A slight Brummie lilt which sounds a little like Barry from Auf Wiedersehn Pet.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,956
    edited October 17
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    If anyone needs cheering up about the state of the country - ie all of us - I’ve just landed at LHR from Seattle and as I disembarked three cute American girls were excitedly discussing how glad they were to be in london (first time, I surmised) and their chances of falling in love with a British guy (they seemed really keen on this idea)

    So, someone still fancies us, for all our problems

    Or more specifically fancies London and London based British males, I doubt they will be visiting Stoke or Sunderland or Merthyr Tydfil looking for a British guy (more's the pity)
    Imagine moving from a Californian beach city to Sunderland as a result. Mind, both are pretty foggy at times.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 38,106
    edited October 17
    Another match about to be rained off.

    "Looks like the semi-final places might well be decided on the amount of rain in Columbo. Did no one tell the ICC that it's monsoon season in Sri Lanka?"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/live/cr4ey2e3rdxt
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,302
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    If anyone needs cheering up about the state of the country - ie all of us - I’ve just landed at LHR from Seattle and as I disembarked three cute American girls were excitedly discussing how glad they were to be in london (first time, I surmised) and their chances of falling in love with a British guy (they seemed really keen on this idea)

    So, someone still fancies us, for all our problems

    Or more specifically fancies London and London based British males, I doubt they will be visiting Stoke or Sunderland or Merthyr Tydfil looking for a British guy (more's the pity)
    I can confirm that the Stockport accent also garners a surprising amount of American female attention, to the mild chagrin of the accompanying British female.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,817

    The one thing that does seem to be happening is labour are not stemming the tide of unpopularity, and must be extremely worried about the trend especially heading into May 26 elections

    Reeves will hope next month's Budget makes a positive impression on voters,

    Otherwise beyond London and the biggest cities, Labour are facing wipeout in areas of England with elections next year and the loss of Wales and no progress in Scotland either
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,302
    I find the postcode lottery a peculiar thing. The national lottery seems present at all social levels, but I have never heard the postcode lottery mentioned at all in middle class circles. My friends from Wythenshawe however are all over it.
    Their adverts are also strange, and appear to be targetting very different tastes to the national lottery. They have an Asda vibe.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,615

    FPT: "Out of curiosity, by what mechanism is it proposed to decarbonise shipping? "

    There are some projects looking to install CO2 capture on ships.

    Other approach is to use ammonia as a carbon-free fuel.

    Having rust buckets wandering into harbour carrying hundreds of tons of ammonia would be... interesting
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 38,106
    "Matt Goodwin
    @GoodwinMJ

    Poland's president has just signed a new law introducing zero personal income tax for parents raising at least two children. At least somebody in Europe (alongside the Hungarians) is thinking about how to tackle our demographic crisis"

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1979182947946127507
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,986

    My holiday starts now and on that topic.

    FTSE plunges as US regional banks warn over credit fraud exposure

    The FTSE 100 plunged as warnings over bad bank loans in the US spooked investors around the world.

    The UK’s flagship stock index, which is heavily weighted towards the financial sector, sank by 1.5pc as trading began in London.

    HSBC, the second most-valuable company on the FTSE 100, and rivals including Lloyds Bank and Natwest plummeted by around 2.5pc each.

    Global stocks were hit hard overnight, with the Nikkei 225 down as much as 1.6pc and the Hang Seng in Hong Kong declining by 2pc as they tracked heavy losses on Wall Street. The Dax in Germany this morning fell by more than 2pc and the Cac 40 in France dropped more than 1pc.

    Sentiment has been rocked by concerns over potentially hidden stress in the network of loans to businesses handed out by US banks, which have $4.5 trillion of exposure to loans from financial institutions outside the banking sector.

    Tensions have been heightened following the recent bankruptcies of auto lender Tricolor and auto parts maker First Brands, which triggered warnings from top financiers over lending standards in the $3 trillion private credit market.

    This week the head of the IMF, Kristalina Georgieva, said the so-called shadow banking sector keeps her “awake at night” while JP Morgan boss Jamie Dimon warned “when you see one cockroach, there’s probably more”.

    Stephen Innes of SPI Asset Management said: “Regional banks have become the canaries in the credit coal mine, and their chirping sounds suspiciously weak.”

    US banking stocks plunged on Thursday after Zions Bancorporation, a Utah-based lender, said it would write off $50m on two loans, while Phoenix-based Western Alliance said it was starting legal proceedings over a bad loan said to be worth $100m.

    Shares in Zions fell by more than 13pc, while Western Alliance Bancorp dropped by nearly 11pc. The twin warnings also dragged down shares in similar institutions. The SPDR S&P Regional Banking ETF, which tracks shares in regional US lenders, was down more than 6pc.

    Dilin Wu, an analyst at Pepperstone Group said: “This US banking shock is more about market sentiment and liquidity than a systemic credit collapse.

    “It’s a good case of global risk aversion at the moment — fundamentals are okay, but fear is dominating the trading desks.”


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/10/17/us-banks-credit-loans-fraud-ftse-100-markets-latest/

    Markets don't react.

    They overreact.
    Markets are stil well above where they were at the beginning of this year. And I mean *well* above.

    So, I don't think the dip is indicating that investors are particularly spooked. I mean... anything's possible. But right now, I'm not feeling it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,615
    kinabalu said:

    Well that explains it. People who do the 'postcode lottery' are going to be skewed towards Reform. Course they are. Knock 5 pts off to get a better estimate. That's what I'll be doing from now on anyway. Really useful header, thank you.

    I like the sound of your enthusiasm. Care to back it with some money?

    {Modifying the results of a "Rogue Pollster" has been the cause of the ruin of many a poor gambler}
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,448
    Afternoon all :)

    A solid series of by election results in the new "heartland" of Surrey for the LDs with gains at both County and District/Borough level.

    The County Council now has 39 Conservative and 42 non-Conservative Councillors and it will be interesting to see, IF the elections for the Shadow Authorities due to take place next year are postponed a year, whether some of the remaining County Councillors will fancy serving up to a seven year term.

    That's how to suspend democracy - not through authoritarianism but reorganisation.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,615

    The one thing that does seem to be happening is labour are not stemming the tide of unpopularity, and must be extremely worried about the trend especially heading into May 26 elections

    Yes - and the only way to see which polls are right is actual elections.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,986
    Andy_JS said:

    "Matt Goodwin
    @GoodwinMJ

    Poland's president has just signed a new law introducing zero personal income tax for parents raising at least two children. At least somebody in Europe (alongside the Hungarians) is thinking about how to tackle our demographic crisis"

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1979182947946127507

    Well, I might point out that the French system - where family members' tax allowances are pooled - has exactly the same effect.

    However, I would also point out that pro-natal policies do not have a particular record of success. Singapore probably has the most aggressive pro-natal policies in the world: free childcare, subsidised housing, tax rebates, lots of paid leave.

    Their TFR is under 1.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,769
    Andy_JS said:

    "Matt Goodwin
    @GoodwinMJ

    Poland's president has just signed a new law introducing zero personal income tax for parents raising at least two children. At least somebody in Europe (alongside the Hungarians) is thinking about how to tackle our demographic crisis"

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1979182947946127507

    If you look at the fertility rates, we have a lot of catching up to do in comparison with the African nations / Hasidic and Haredi Jews. A future world both brown and Jewish will upset a few.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_fertility_rate
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,639
    rcs1000 said:

    My holiday starts now and on that topic.

    FTSE plunges as US regional banks warn over credit fraud exposure

    The FTSE 100 plunged as warnings over bad bank loans in the US spooked investors around the world.

    The UK’s flagship stock index, which is heavily weighted towards the financial sector, sank by 1.5pc as trading began in London.

    HSBC, the second most-valuable company on the FTSE 100, and rivals including Lloyds Bank and Natwest plummeted by around 2.5pc each.

    Global stocks were hit hard overnight, with the Nikkei 225 down as much as 1.6pc and the Hang Seng in Hong Kong declining by 2pc as they tracked heavy losses on Wall Street. The Dax in Germany this morning fell by more than 2pc and the Cac 40 in France dropped more than 1pc.

    Sentiment has been rocked by concerns over potentially hidden stress in the network of loans to businesses handed out by US banks, which have $4.5 trillion of exposure to loans from financial institutions outside the banking sector.

    Tensions have been heightened following the recent bankruptcies of auto lender Tricolor and auto parts maker First Brands, which triggered warnings from top financiers over lending standards in the $3 trillion private credit market.

    This week the head of the IMF, Kristalina Georgieva, said the so-called shadow banking sector keeps her “awake at night” while JP Morgan boss Jamie Dimon warned “when you see one cockroach, there’s probably more”.

    Stephen Innes of SPI Asset Management said: “Regional banks have become the canaries in the credit coal mine, and their chirping sounds suspiciously weak.”

    US banking stocks plunged on Thursday after Zions Bancorporation, a Utah-based lender, said it would write off $50m on two loans, while Phoenix-based Western Alliance said it was starting legal proceedings over a bad loan said to be worth $100m.

    Shares in Zions fell by more than 13pc, while Western Alliance Bancorp dropped by nearly 11pc. The twin warnings also dragged down shares in similar institutions. The SPDR S&P Regional Banking ETF, which tracks shares in regional US lenders, was down more than 6pc.

    Dilin Wu, an analyst at Pepperstone Group said: “This US banking shock is more about market sentiment and liquidity than a systemic credit collapse.

    “It’s a good case of global risk aversion at the moment — fundamentals are okay, but fear is dominating the trading desks.”


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/10/17/us-banks-credit-loans-fraud-ftse-100-markets-latest/

    Markets don't react.

    They overreact.
    Markets are stil well above where they were at the beginning of this year. And I mean *well* above.

    So, I don't think the dip is indicating that investors are particularly spooked. I mean... anything's possible. But right now, I'm not feeling it.
    I’ve been busy setting up a new investment business in the alternative investments sphere and I’m having big internal debates about when to go live. Even though it won’t be directly exposed to AI and the main markets I think there is always contagion risk and I will possibly wait for a bit of a retrenchment in the markets and launch it once the bodies are cleared away.

    It’s a very tough decision and have to balance damage from perceptions of investing if things are shaky with getting an early mover benefit in the sphere I will be covering for the set up I have planned.

    I was badly burned in 2008 and don’t want to have another painful hit so will likely run some private money for my people who truly understand risk but not open it up to wider investors until I can see any bubble deflated one way or another.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,986
    Leon said:

    Surely the only metric that counts is: Are their polling predictions accurate?

    And I believe Find Out Now have a pretty good record. But I am happy to be schooled, if I’m wrong

    Wasn't 2024 their first election? And they were decent, but BMG got vote shares more accurate, while the YouGov MRP did best as far as seat changes.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,311
    edited October 17
    Home Office was told last week about potential Maccabi Tel Aviv fan ban, police football unit says.

    Safety Advisory Group says it will review ban if police risk assessment changes

    Spiderman meme ongoing....
  • Home Office was told last week about potential Maccabi Tel Aviv fan ban, police football unit says

    Home Office knew a week ago that Maccabi Tel Aviv fans faced ban

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/10/17/home-office-told-a-week-ago-maccabi-tel-aviv-fans-faced-ban/
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,986
    Battlebus said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Matt Goodwin
    @GoodwinMJ

    Poland's president has just signed a new law introducing zero personal income tax for parents raising at least two children. At least somebody in Europe (alongside the Hungarians) is thinking about how to tackle our demographic crisis"

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1979182947946127507

    If you look at the fertility rates, we have a lot of catching up to do in comparison with the African nations / Hasidic and Haredi Jews. A future world both brown and Jewish will upset a few.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_fertility_rate
    Given the extent to which fertility rates are falling in those countries, it is more likely that they catch up with us!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,210

    FPT: "Out of curiosity, by what mechanism is it proposed to decarbonise shipping? "

    There are some projects looking to install CO2 capture on ships.

    Other approach is to use ammonia as a carbon-free fuel.

    Bingo.
    I actually joked about this on the last thread.

    None of that is anywhere near economic at the moment.
    There are plenty of other measure to reduce open going CO2 emissions which could be brought in, without spending billions on boondoggles.

    Ocean shipping accounts for less than 3% of total emissions. Decarbonising land based transport, which accounts for over five times that number) is far more practical in the near term.
    Even air transport would likely be more economically amenable to decarbonisation through the use of synthetic fuel (fuel costs are half of total shipping costs, while only around 20% of aviation).
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,615
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Matt Goodwin
    @GoodwinMJ

    Poland's president has just signed a new law introducing zero personal income tax for parents raising at least two children. At least somebody in Europe (alongside the Hungarians) is thinking about how to tackle our demographic crisis"

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1979182947946127507

    Well, I might point out that the French system - where family members' tax allowances are pooled - has exactly the same effect.

    However, I would also point out that pro-natal policies do not have a particular record of success. Singapore probably has the most aggressive pro-natal policies in the world: free childcare, subsidised housing, tax rebates, lots of paid leave.

    Their TFR is under 1.
    Yes - it's as much about social attitudes. Lost count of the number of times I've heard "I wouldn't marry a man from my country" from women in London - Japanese, Indian, Korean....

    Mind you, a Japanese acquaintance is heading back to Tokyo, to have children - because of the massive subsidies, compared to the massive costs of London. To start with, nursery is free, compared with about £1200 a month here.

    She did comment that it will be a "bit interesting", given her husband is white British.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,986
    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    A solid series of by election results in the new "heartland" of Surrey for the LDs with gains at both County and District/Borough level.

    The County Council now has 39 Conservative and 42 non-Conservative Councillors and it will be interesting to see, IF the elections for the Shadow Authorities due to take place next year are postponed a year, whether some of the remaining County Councillors will fancy serving up to a seven year term.

    That's how to suspend democracy - not through authoritarianism but reorganisation.

    I do wonder if the UK is heading towards a French type election, which pits the Liberal Democrats against Reform.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,694

    kinabalu said:

    Well that explains it. People who do the 'postcode lottery' are going to be skewed towards Reform. Course they are. Knock 5 pts off to get a better estimate. That's what I'll be doing from now on anyway. Really useful header, thank you.

    I like the sound of your enthusiasm. Care to back it with some money?

    {Modifying the results of a "Rogue Pollster" has been the cause of the ruin of many a poor gambler}
    Yes you have to be careful. But that's what I'll be doing. 5 pts off Reform. No £ at this point though. Such volatile times.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,615

    Home Office was told last week about potential Maccabi Tel Aviv fan ban, police football unit says

    Home Office knew a week ago that Maccabi Tel Aviv fans faced ban

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/10/17/home-office-told-a-week-ago-maccabi-tel-aviv-fans-faced-ban/
    No no no

    They weren't "told" according to the legal definition. Which relates to a law case in 1386 concerning the definition of told. They were just sent an email, which they received and read. But they weren't told. No Sir.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,448
    Hyperbole seems to be the order of the day - the FTSE100 has apparently plunged (actually, it's down about 0.75% so hardly earth shattering) and I am also informed the decision to ban Maccabi Tel Aviv fans from attending the match against Aston Villa is the end of civilisation as we know it and the end of "Britain" (whatever that means).

    The latter is an example of the world we'd like versus the world as it is. There are huge and violent rivalries within British football - all manner of "grudge" matches involving supporters from sometimes the same town or city and there was plenty of violence around once related to these games as those who went to matches in the 70s and 80s will attest.

    Of course, we shouldn't have the situation when Liverpool fans are banned from going to Old Trafford or Ipswich fans to Carrow Road or Millwall fans to almost anywhere and the same applies to supporters of Maccabi Tel Aviv.

    There will be those who will argue the cost of policing such a game in terms of extra resources and manpower isn't justifiable and inevitably IF the ban is lifted, there will no doubt be those who, when the cost of doing all this appears in the public domain, will jump up and down but sometimes you have to forget the cost against the principle.

    That's not to say public order as a whole isn't important but the intolerance of majorities (or is it the wisdom of crowds, I can never quite remember?) can't be the basis on which the policing of events takes place. Yes, you have a right to protest but peacefully and within the law and that means you can't intimidate people who have an equal right to be there but simply shout things you don't like or believe in a God you don't or have a skin colour which isn't yours.

    Those with long memories wll remember Cable Street and the local population "defending" their area against the BUF - that was lauded as a victory then but would it be so now? I wonder.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,311

    Home Office was told last week about potential Maccabi Tel Aviv fan ban, police football unit says

    Home Office knew a week ago that Maccabi Tel Aviv fans faced ban

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/10/17/home-office-told-a-week-ago-maccabi-tel-aviv-fans-faced-ban/
    No no no

    They weren't "told" according to the legal definition. Which relates to a law case in 1386 concerning the definition of told. They were just sent an email, which they received and read. But they weren't told. No Sir.
    Never crossed anybodies desk....
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,410
    Cookie said:

    I find the postcode lottery a peculiar thing. The national lottery seems present at all social levels, but I have never heard the postcode lottery mentioned at all in middle class circles. My friends from Wythenshawe however are all over it.
    Their adverts are also strange, and appear to be targetting very different tastes to the national lottery. They have an Asda vibe.

    Post Code Lottery = 40% prizes, 33% charity, 27% to the operators
    National Lottery = 53% prizes, 37% charity + taxes, 10% to the operators and retailers

    There is a reason the middle class don't get involved.
  • Home Office was told last week about potential Maccabi Tel Aviv fan ban, police football unit says

    Home Office knew a week ago that Maccabi Tel Aviv fans faced ban

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/10/17/home-office-told-a-week-ago-maccabi-tel-aviv-fans-faced-ban/
    No no no

    They weren't "told" according to the legal definition. Which relates to a law case in 1386 concerning the definition of told. They were just sent an email, which they received and read. But they weren't told. No Sir.
    I once received a report which I didn’t read for a week because I had other priorities.
  • eekeek Posts: 31,529
    stodge said:

    Hyperbole seems to be the order of the day - the FTSE100 has apparently plunged (actually, it's down about 0.75% so hardly earth shattering) and I am also informed the decision to ban Maccabi Tel Aviv fans from attending the match against Aston Villa is the end of civilisation as we know it and the end of "Britain" (whatever that means).

    The latter is an example of the world we'd like versus the world as it is. There are huge and violent rivalries within British football - all manner of "grudge" matches involving supporters from sometimes the same town or city and there was plenty of violence around once related to these games as those who went to matches in the 70s and 80s will attest.

    Of course, we shouldn't have the situation when Liverpool fans are banned from going to Old Trafford or Ipswich fans to Carrow Road or Millwall fans to almost anywhere and the same applies to supporters of Maccabi Tel Aviv.

    There will be those who will argue the cost of policing such a game in terms of extra resources and manpower isn't justifiable and inevitably IF the ban is lifted, there will no doubt be those who, when the cost of doing all this appears in the public domain, will jump up and down but sometimes you have to forget the cost against the principle.

    That's not to say public order as a whole isn't important but the intolerance of majorities (or is it the wisdom of crowds, I can never quite remember?) can't be the basis on which the policing of events takes place. Yes, you have a right to protest but peacefully and within the law and that means you can't intimidate people who have an equal right to be there but simply shout things you don't like or believe in a God you don't or have a skin colour which isn't yours.

    Those with long memories wll remember Cable Street and the local population "defending" their area against the BUF - that was lauded as a victory then but would it be so now? I wonder.

    I just don't get the problem as you do what other sensible police forces do.

    For Sunderland / Newcastle matches you bus in the away supporters on coaches leaving you with one set of vehicles to observe and if necessary protect.

    The Chief Constable needs to be made to explain why he is taking the easy way out whilst creating an international incident..
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,311
    edited October 17
    Bobby swiftly in to surround the ref claiming he was right all along....opposition needs red carding.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/10/17/robert-jenrick-i-was-right-about-birmingham-villa-park/
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,410
    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    A solid series of by election results in the new "heartland" of Surrey for the LDs with gains at both County and District/Borough level.

    The County Council now has 39 Conservative and 42 non-Conservative Councillors and it will be interesting to see, IF the elections for the Shadow Authorities due to take place next year are postponed a year, whether some of the remaining County Councillors will fancy serving up to a seven year term.

    That's how to suspend democracy - not through authoritarianism but reorganisation.

    I do wonder if the UK is heading towards a French type election, which pits the Liberal Democrats against Reform.
    Gails v Greggs
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,210
    Interesting that China's domestic semiconductor equipment industry is reported to be now producing a DUV tool validated for SAQP 7nm chip production.

    They are not all that far behind the west now (though the technical hurdles for EUC are considerably higher).

    DUV tools still account for over half of ASML's business...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,986

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Matt Goodwin
    @GoodwinMJ

    Poland's president has just signed a new law introducing zero personal income tax for parents raising at least two children. At least somebody in Europe (alongside the Hungarians) is thinking about how to tackle our demographic crisis"

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1979182947946127507

    Well, I might point out that the French system - where family members' tax allowances are pooled - has exactly the same effect.

    However, I would also point out that pro-natal policies do not have a particular record of success. Singapore probably has the most aggressive pro-natal policies in the world: free childcare, subsidised housing, tax rebates, lots of paid leave.

    Their TFR is under 1.
    Yes - it's as much about social attitudes. Lost count of the number of times I've heard "I wouldn't marry a man from my country" from women in London - Japanese, Indian, Korean....

    Mind you, a Japanese acquaintance is heading back to Tokyo, to have children - because of the massive subsidies, compared to the massive costs of London. To start with, nursery is free, compared with about £1200 a month here.

    She did comment that it will be a "bit interesting", given her husband is white British.
    That will be an interesting shift!

    Fundamentally, being a parent - particularly being a mother - is really hard. My wife quoted to me the line from Meryl Streep in the Bridges of Madison County the other day, about how as a mother you have stop and stand still, so your children can move. And a lot of women see that trade, and aren't very keen on it.

  • It’s why I printed reports as opposed to emails.

    Plausible deniability.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,986
    Nigelb said:

    Interesting that China's domestic semiconductor equipment industry is reported to be now producing a DUV tool validated for SAQP 7nm chip production.

    They are not all that far behind the west now (though the technical hurdles for EUC are considerably higher).

    DUV tools still account for over half of ASML's business...

    Albeit a declining share: DUV will be a fairly small share of new orders.
  • Another good way out is I read the executive summary but not the full report.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,615
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Well that explains it. People who do the 'postcode lottery' are going to be skewed towards Reform. Course they are. Knock 5 pts off to get a better estimate. That's what I'll be doing from now on anyway. Really useful header, thank you.

    I like the sound of your enthusiasm. Care to back it with some money?

    {Modifying the results of a "Rogue Pollster" has been the cause of the ruin of many a poor gambler}
    Yes you have to be careful. But that's what I'll be doing. 5 pts off Reform. No £ at this point though. Such volatile times.
    1) Rogue Pollsters are ones you disagree with
    2) I am finding absolutely no support for Labour among people I know - middle of the road or the hard core lefties. Especially noticeable is that in casual, non-politics obsessed conversation, every action of the Government is seen as a tired joke.
    3) Several acquaintances are going Reform, to my shock. And disgust.
    4) Council election results seem to show that Reform are doing very well - in places where Labour/Conservatives/Others used to dominate.

    To be clear. The current government is meeeeeeeeeeeeh. A Reform Government will be very, very bad in an active fashion. But this is about where I *bet* on things happening.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,311

    Another good way out is I read the executive summary but not the full report.

    You would make a great politician.....
  • eekeek Posts: 31,529

    It’s why I printed reports as opposed to emails.

    Plausible deniability.

    To print a report you need to open it and send it to the printer.

    For full deniability you need someone else to open and print it for you - and add it to an in tray that is already overflowing...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,986
    eek said:

    stodge said:

    Hyperbole seems to be the order of the day - the FTSE100 has apparently plunged (actually, it's down about 0.75% so hardly earth shattering) and I am also informed the decision to ban Maccabi Tel Aviv fans from attending the match against Aston Villa is the end of civilisation as we know it and the end of "Britain" (whatever that means).

    The latter is an example of the world we'd like versus the world as it is. There are huge and violent rivalries within British football - all manner of "grudge" matches involving supporters from sometimes the same town or city and there was plenty of violence around once related to these games as those who went to matches in the 70s and 80s will attest.

    Of course, we shouldn't have the situation when Liverpool fans are banned from going to Old Trafford or Ipswich fans to Carrow Road or Millwall fans to almost anywhere and the same applies to supporters of Maccabi Tel Aviv.

    There will be those who will argue the cost of policing such a game in terms of extra resources and manpower isn't justifiable and inevitably IF the ban is lifted, there will no doubt be those who, when the cost of doing all this appears in the public domain, will jump up and down but sometimes you have to forget the cost against the principle.

    That's not to say public order as a whole isn't important but the intolerance of majorities (or is it the wisdom of crowds, I can never quite remember?) can't be the basis on which the policing of events takes place. Yes, you have a right to protest but peacefully and within the law and that means you can't intimidate people who have an equal right to be there but simply shout things you don't like or believe in a God you don't or have a skin colour which isn't yours.

    Those with long memories wll remember Cable Street and the local population "defending" their area against the BUF - that was lauded as a victory then but would it be so now? I wonder.

    I just don't get the problem as you do what other sensible police forces do.

    For Sunderland / Newcastle matches you bus in the away supporters on coaches leaving you with one set of vehicles to observe and if necessary protect.

    The Chief Constable needs to be made to explain why he is taking the easy way out whilst creating an international incident..
    Indeed: there's no reason at all why fans cannot be bussed in with police protection. (It even happens here in LA for the LAFC v LA Galaxy games.)
  • eekeek Posts: 31,529

    Another good way out is I read the executive summary but not the full report.

    So the ideal is to have the executive summary printed by someone else and added to your in tray...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,615

    Home Office was told last week about potential Maccabi Tel Aviv fan ban, police football unit says

    Home Office knew a week ago that Maccabi Tel Aviv fans faced ban

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/10/17/home-office-told-a-week-ago-maccabi-tel-aviv-fans-faced-ban/
    No no no

    They weren't "told" according to the legal definition. Which relates to a law case in 1386 concerning the definition of told. They were just sent an email, which they received and read. But they weren't told. No Sir.
    I once received a report which I didn’t read for a week because I had other priorities.
    At the start of my a career, I spoke up at a meeting, to highlight a disastrous problem that was being ignored.

    I was received with a frosty silence.

    Afterwards, my manager explained to be in a kindly fashion, that I had just made a Senior Figure publicly and provably aware of an issue that he (the Senior Figure) needed not to know about.

    He further explained that officiously telling senior people the truth like that was probably worse than stealing money from the company.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,817
    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    A solid series of by election results in the new "heartland" of Surrey for the LDs with gains at both County and District/Borough level.

    The County Council now has 39 Conservative and 42 non-Conservative Councillors and it will be interesting to see, IF the elections for the Shadow Authorities due to take place next year are postponed a year, whether some of the remaining County Councillors will fancy serving up to a seven year term.

    That's how to suspend democracy - not through authoritarianism but reorganisation.

    I do wonder if the UK is heading towards a French type election, which pits the Liberal Democrats against Reform.
    Similar in Canada and the US and the Netherlands and arguably Italy.

    At the moment though the centrist non Reform voter is still voting more Labour than LD and left of centre voters are largely split between Labour and Green and are not going LD
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,311
    edited October 17
    rcs1000 said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    Hyperbole seems to be the order of the day - the FTSE100 has apparently plunged (actually, it's down about 0.75% so hardly earth shattering) and I am also informed the decision to ban Maccabi Tel Aviv fans from attending the match against Aston Villa is the end of civilisation as we know it and the end of "Britain" (whatever that means).

    The latter is an example of the world we'd like versus the world as it is. There are huge and violent rivalries within British football - all manner of "grudge" matches involving supporters from sometimes the same town or city and there was plenty of violence around once related to these games as those who went to matches in the 70s and 80s will attest.

    Of course, we shouldn't have the situation when Liverpool fans are banned from going to Old Trafford or Ipswich fans to Carrow Road or Millwall fans to almost anywhere and the same applies to supporters of Maccabi Tel Aviv.

    There will be those who will argue the cost of policing such a game in terms of extra resources and manpower isn't justifiable and inevitably IF the ban is lifted, there will no doubt be those who, when the cost of doing all this appears in the public domain, will jump up and down but sometimes you have to forget the cost against the principle.

    That's not to say public order as a whole isn't important but the intolerance of majorities (or is it the wisdom of crowds, I can never quite remember?) can't be the basis on which the policing of events takes place. Yes, you have a right to protest but peacefully and within the law and that means you can't intimidate people who have an equal right to be there but simply shout things you don't like or believe in a God you don't or have a skin colour which isn't yours.

    Those with long memories wll remember Cable Street and the local population "defending" their area against the BUF - that was lauded as a victory then but would it be so now? I wonder.

    I just don't get the problem as you do what other sensible police forces do.

    For Sunderland / Newcastle matches you bus in the away supporters on coaches leaving you with one set of vehicles to observe and if necessary protect.

    The Chief Constable needs to be made to explain why he is taking the easy way out whilst creating an international incident..
    Indeed: there's no reason at all why fans cannot be bussed in with police protection. (It even happens here in LA for the LAFC v LA Galaxy games.)
    I believe that it is fairly standard practice for England away fans. You can't get tickets without being member of supporters club, provide id etc, then held in a central area and told where to drink, then bussed to the stadium from there.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,986

    FPT: "Out of curiosity, by what mechanism is it proposed to decarbonise shipping? "

    There are some projects looking to install CO2 capture on ships.

    Other approach is to use ammonia as a carbon-free fuel.

    I quite like the modern sails idea - see the Pyxis Ocean, whose sails were developed by a British company.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,760
    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    A solid series of by election results in the new "heartland" of Surrey for the LDs with gains at both County and District/Borough level.

    The County Council now has 39 Conservative and 42 non-Conservative Councillors and it will be interesting to see, IF the elections for the Shadow Authorities due to take place next year are postponed a year, whether some of the remaining County Councillors will fancy serving up to a seven year term.

    That's how to suspend democracy - not through authoritarianism but reorganisation.

    I do wonder if the UK is heading towards a French type election, which pits the Liberal Democrats against Reform.
    I don’t think Reform would win a landslide on 33%. I think the left wing vote would converge on either Labour or the Lib Dem’s (maybe even the Greens).

    But, if the polling is close between Reform v main left wing party, then the Conservatives would be squeezed further. And, once Reform hit 25%+, their vote is quite efficiently distributed.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,666
    The only poll I know of that I really trust when it comes to detail is the one John Curtice does on elelction day.

    But the regular polling, including FON, is not without use, with regard to trends, relative performance, probabilities and ball park figures. Anyone relying on it is badly advised.

    As to FON, I am not sure.

    For regular standard electoral polling it seems to me there are three questions:

    How do you get your respondents at all.

    How do you weight them etc in order to be representative

    and

    How do you treat - ie alter - the raw data once you have got it (eg with regard to propensity to vote or otherwise).


    FON's methods, unless they are obviously eccentric, can only be evaluated as a totality and when compared as a totality with the other pollsters. This one single factor doesn't on its own trash the brand.
  • eekeek Posts: 31,529
    edited October 17
    rcs1000 said:

    FPT: "Out of curiosity, by what mechanism is it proposed to decarbonise shipping? "

    There are some projects looking to install CO2 capture on ships.

    Other approach is to use ammonia as a carbon-free fuel.

    I quite like the modern sails idea - see the Pyxis Ocean, whose sails were developed by a British company.
    I could speak to my dad as he was on the IMO committee but I haven't yet lost my will to live...

    My favourite story of his was him pointing out the last time they were looking at lifeboat safety that the measurements used to calculate the number of people each lifeboat could process was based on your typical brit in the 1930's and your average cruise passenger was rather bigger and less physically able.. To prove the point he them got out his holiday photos from the cruise he was on the previous week (which began in Miami).
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,986

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Well that explains it. People who do the 'postcode lottery' are going to be skewed towards Reform. Course they are. Knock 5 pts off to get a better estimate. That's what I'll be doing from now on anyway. Really useful header, thank you.

    I like the sound of your enthusiasm. Care to back it with some money?

    {Modifying the results of a "Rogue Pollster" has been the cause of the ruin of many a poor gambler}
    Yes you have to be careful. But that's what I'll be doing. 5 pts off Reform. No £ at this point though. Such volatile times.
    1) Rogue Pollsters are ones you disagree with
    2) I am finding absolutely no support for Labour among people I know - middle of the road or the hard core lefties. Especially noticeable is that in casual, non-politics obsessed conversation, every action of the Government is seen as a tired joke.
    3) Several acquaintances are going Reform, to my shock. And disgust.
    4) Council election results seem to show that Reform are doing very well - in places where Labour/Conservatives/Others used to dominate.

    To be clear. The current government is meeeeeeeeeeeeh. A Reform Government will be very, very bad in an active fashion. But this is about where I *bet* on things happening.
    If you believe current council by-elections, then the UK is heading for Ed Davey for Nigel Farage!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,210
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Interesting that China's domestic semiconductor equipment industry is reported to be now producing a DUV tool validated for SAQP 7nm chip production.

    They are not all that far behind the west now (though the technical hurdles for EUC are considerably higher).

    DUV tools still account for over half of ASML's business...

    Albeit a declining share: DUV will be a fairly small share of new orders.
    I'm not sure how true that is.
    Multiple patterning ("SAQP" is an example of that) allows the production of feature sizes a lot smaller than the DUV wavelength. For a quite a few processes, it's fully competitive with EUV, because the economics dictate that.

    DUV will be around for quite a long time yet.

    Whether China has a full set of domestically produced reliable tools for fancy stuff like SAQP isn't quite clear, I think.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,769
    edited October 17
    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    A solid series of by election results in the new "heartland" of Surrey for the LDs with gains at both County and District/Borough level.

    The County Council now has 39 Conservative and 42 non-Conservative Councillors and it will be interesting to see, IF the elections for the Shadow Authorities due to take place next year are postponed a year, whether some of the remaining County Councillors will fancy serving up to a seven year term.

    That's how to suspend democracy - not through authoritarianism but reorganisation.

    I do wonder if the UK is heading towards a French type election, which pits the Liberal Democrats against Reform.
    They don't seem to overlap. Reform are/have found themselves in Red Wall territory mainly because the Conservatives 'one-nation' Tories have been gutted from the party by Boris. LibDems have the largest share of the leafy shires constituencies. How Reform can pivot from the left behind to bank managers (see previous quote) will be difficult especially since they are a one-man band.

    Labour have a spread throughout the spectrum from RW to LS but it's definitely weaker at the RW end and stronger at the LS end. Kemi's chasing the Reform rhetoric will simply reinforce the damage done by Boris. Have I mentioned she's a dud*.

    * It would be more appropriate to say she was the least-worst option for LOTO though that penny hasn't dropped yet. She has an unusually high opinion of her own abilities.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,345
    Oh dear...

    https://order-order.com/2025/10/17/exc-aston-villa-fc-safety-advisory-board-member-called-for-boycott-of-israel/

    A Birmingham City councillor who claims to be “appointed on to the Safety Advisory Board at Aston Villa FC” – the club at which Maccabi Tel Aviv fans are banned next month – said that he would be boycotting the match in opposition to the Israeli government.

    Speaking at a “Free Gaza” protest in 2014, he backed a boycott of Israel: “We need to ensure that there is a clear list of companies that are supporting the Zionists out there in Israel. We need to continue to boycott them.” In a 2016 open letter to Ruth Jacobs, of the Birmingham and West Midlands Jewry Representative Council, Zaffar said: “Palestinian violence has been a reaction to Israeli oppression and violence. Even when Palestinians protest peacefully, they are shot and often killed or maimed by the Israeli armed forces.” Labour said: “These views are not shared by the Labour party and Councillor Zaffar has been reminded of his responsibilities as a Labour councillor”…
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,986
    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    A solid series of by election results in the new "heartland" of Surrey for the LDs with gains at both County and District/Borough level.

    The County Council now has 39 Conservative and 42 non-Conservative Councillors and it will be interesting to see, IF the elections for the Shadow Authorities due to take place next year are postponed a year, whether some of the remaining County Councillors will fancy serving up to a seven year term.

    That's how to suspend democracy - not through authoritarianism but reorganisation.

    I do wonder if the UK is heading towards a French type election, which pits the Liberal Democrats against Reform.
    I don’t think Reform would win a landslide on 33%. I think the left wing vote would converge on either Labour or the Lib Dem’s (maybe even the Greens).

    But, if the polling is close between Reform v main left wing party, then the Conservatives would be squeezed further. And, once Reform hit 25%+, their vote is quite efficiently distributed.
    If Reform manages to squeeze the Conservatives to oblivion, there is no reason why they can't get close to 40%, in which case they will win the next election, even if the LabLDGreen vote is exceptionally efficient.

    On the other hand, if the Conservatives stage some kind of come back (maybe getting back in the low-20s, while Reform comes back into the high 20s), then almost any result is possible.
  • Another good way out is I read the executive summary but not the full report.

    You would make a great politician.....
    Mrs Thatcher said if she read every report in full she wouldn’t have any other time to do things as a minister/PM, Dave concurred.

    What you’re reliant on is a staff who know what to prioritise for you to know about.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,580
    IanB2 said:

    Markets are all at perilous highs, given the reasons for global instability and uncertainty that anyone who watches the news can reel off. No wonder gold is also at a record high.

    Isn't it a bit of a wonder that they're both high at the same time?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,986
    I see one of RFK's lieutenants has written a paper on how the Department of Health and Public Services needs to investigate chemtrails.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 82,210
    Nigelb said:

    FPT: "Out of curiosity, by what mechanism is it proposed to decarbonise shipping? "

    There are some projects looking to install CO2 capture on ships.

    Other approach is to use ammonia as a carbon-free fuel.

    Bingo.
    I actually joked about this on the last thread.

    None of that is anywhere near economic at the moment.
    There are plenty of other measure to reduce open going CO2 emissions which could be brought in, without spending billions on boondoggles.

    Ocean shipping accounts for less than 3% of total emissions. Decarbonising land based transport, which accounts for over five times that number) is far more practical in the near term.
    Even air transport would likely be more economically amenable to decarbonisation through the use of synthetic fuel (fuel costs are half of total shipping costs, while only around 20% of aviation).
    And of course increasing the cost of aviation would have the positive (from the POV of emissions) effect of reducing the total number of flights.
    Far less economically practical to significantly reduce the amount of ocean shipping than the number of airline flights.
  • eekeek Posts: 31,529

    Another good way out is I read the executive summary but not the full report.

    You would make a great politician.....
    Mrs Thatcher said if she read every report in full she wouldn’t have any other time to do things as a minister/PM, Dave concurred.

    What you’re reliant on is a staff who know what to prioritise for you to know about.
    I suspect you don't actually have time to read the executive summary of all the reports - even they will need to be prioritised..
  • eekeek Posts: 31,529
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    FPT: "Out of curiosity, by what mechanism is it proposed to decarbonise shipping? "

    There are some projects looking to install CO2 capture on ships.

    Other approach is to use ammonia as a carbon-free fuel.

    Bingo.
    I actually joked about this on the last thread.

    None of that is anywhere near economic at the moment.
    There are plenty of other measure to reduce open going CO2 emissions which could be brought in, without spending billions on boondoggles.

    Ocean shipping accounts for less than 3% of total emissions. Decarbonising land based transport, which accounts for over five times that number) is far more practical in the near term.
    Even air transport would likely be more economically amenable to decarbonisation through the use of synthetic fuel (fuel costs are half of total shipping costs, while only around 20% of aviation).
    And of course increasing the cost of aviation would have the positive (from the POV of emissions) effect of reducing the total number of flights.
    Far less economically practical to significantly reduce the amount of ocean shipping than the number of airline flights.
    Trump trying to onshore everything by increasing tariffs has already at times reduced nautical emissions - as the ships simply don't sail as often...
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,639
    rcs1000 said:

    FPT: "Out of curiosity, by what mechanism is it proposed to decarbonise shipping? "

    There are some projects looking to install CO2 capture on ships.

    Other approach is to use ammonia as a carbon-free fuel.

    I quite like the modern sails idea - see the Pyxis Ocean, whose sails were developed by a British company.
    I should probably research it myself but likely someone on here knows already but I would love to know how useful the modern airships being developed could be for cargo transport.

    I clearly have no idea how much weight they can shift, range, speed and susceptibility to bad weather but I have images of “sky trains” of them moving along below plane flight altitudes with perhaps one manned and the rest linked to it by satellite (if indeed all can’t be unmanned) delivering cargo that’s not “urgent”.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,986
    Battlebus said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    A solid series of by election results in the new "heartland" of Surrey for the LDs with gains at both County and District/Borough level.

    The County Council now has 39 Conservative and 42 non-Conservative Councillors and it will be interesting to see, IF the elections for the Shadow Authorities due to take place next year are postponed a year, whether some of the remaining County Councillors will fancy serving up to a seven year term.

    That's how to suspend democracy - not through authoritarianism but reorganisation.

    I do wonder if the UK is heading towards a French type election, which pits the Liberal Democrats against Reform.
    They don't seem to overlap. Reform are/have found themselves in Red Wall territory mainly because the Conservatives 'one-nation' Tories have been gutted from the party by Boris. LibDems have the largest share of the leafy shires constituencies. How Reform can pivot from the left behind to bank managers (see previous quote) will be difficult especially since they are a one-man band.

    Labour have a spread throughout the spectrum from RW to LS but it's definitely weaker at the RW end and stronger at the LS end. Kemi's chasing the Reform rhetoric will simply reinforce the damage done by Boris. Have I mentioned she's a dud*.

    * It would be more appropriate to say she was the least-worst option for LOTO though that penny hasn't dropped yet. She has an unusually high opinion of her own abilities.
    Well, they will overlap in the South West of England. Next election I would expect almost every seat West of Bristol to be be a straight Reform v LibDem fight, with the exception of the Exeter and Plymouth seats and maybe Truro and Falmouth. (Although even there I wouldn't be surprised to see Reform win, and the LDs come in second.)
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,311
    tlg86 said:

    Oh dear...

    https://order-order.com/2025/10/17/exc-aston-villa-fc-safety-advisory-board-member-called-for-boycott-of-israel/

    A Birmingham City councillor who claims to be “appointed on to the Safety Advisory Board at Aston Villa FC” – the club at which Maccabi Tel Aviv fans are banned next month – said that he would be boycotting the match in opposition to the Israeli government.

    Speaking at a “Free Gaza” protest in 2014, he backed a boycott of Israel: “We need to ensure that there is a clear list of companies that are supporting the Zionists out there in Israel. We need to continue to boycott them.” In a 2016 open letter to Ruth Jacobs, of the Birmingham and West Midlands Jewry Representative Council, Zaffar said: “Palestinian violence has been a reaction to Israeli oppression and violence. Even when Palestinians protest peacefully, they are shot and often killed or maimed by the Israeli armed forces.” Labour said: “These views are not shared by the Labour party and Councillor Zaffar has been reminded of his responsibilities as a Labour councillor”…

    Good job no other senior council officials have a history of antisemitic comments.....

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/10/17/birmingham-council-boss-tel-aviv-fans-ban-anti-semitic-slur/
  • Perhaps this has already been noticed, so forgive the repetition if it is, but yesterday in Surrey there were six by-elections. The Lib Dems won all six (which is perhaps to be expected) but the surprise for me is that, on average, the Conservatives polled 15%. That's got to be a cause for concern in Conservative Party HQ. They really ought to be getting a lot more than 15% in Surrey.
  • eek said:

    Another good way out is I read the executive summary but not the full report.

    You would make a great politician.....
    Mrs Thatcher said if she read every report in full she wouldn’t have any other time to do things as a minister/PM, Dave concurred.

    What you’re reliant on is a staff who know what to prioritise for you to know about.
    I suspect you don't actually have time to read the executive summary of all the reports - even they will need to be prioritised..
    I was told there was a MOD report that a 150 page executive summary.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,986
    boulay said:



    rcs1000 said:

    FPT: "Out of curiosity, by what mechanism is it proposed to decarbonise shipping? "

    There are some projects looking to install CO2 capture on ships.

    Other approach is to use ammonia as a carbon-free fuel.

    I quite like the modern sails idea - see the Pyxis Ocean, whose sails were developed by a British company.
    I should probably research it myself but likely someone on here knows already but I would love to know how useful the modern airships being developed could be for cargo transport.

    I clearly have no idea how much weight they can shift, range, speed and susceptibility to bad weather but I have images of “sky trains” of them moving along below plane flight altitudes with perhaps one manned and the rest linked to it by satellite (if indeed all can’t be unmanned) delivering cargo that’s not “urgent”.

    Airships are not a viable transport method for cargo shipping. They can carry only limited amounts. They are very slow. And if the wind is against you, they are incredibly inefficient. (Or indeed, don't even work at all.)
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,311

    eek said:

    Another good way out is I read the executive summary but not the full report.

    You would make a great politician.....
    Mrs Thatcher said if she read every report in full she wouldn’t have any other time to do things as a minister/PM, Dave concurred.

    What you’re reliant on is a staff who know what to prioritise for you to know about.
    I suspect you don't actually have time to read the executive summary of all the reports - even they will need to be prioritised..
    I was told there was a MOD report that a 150 page executive summary.
    Which definition of the word summary did they not understand?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,383
    edited October 17

    Perhaps this has already been noticed, so forgive the repetition if it is, but yesterday in Surrey there were six by-elections. The Lib Dems won all six (which is perhaps to be expected) but the surprise for me is that, on average, the Conservatives polled 15%. That's got to be a cause for concern in Conservative Party HQ. They really ought to be getting a lot more than 15% in Surrey.

    I’ve made my peace that for the next four years elections for the Tories including the general election will be like the first day of the Battle of the Somme.
  • eekeek Posts: 31,529

    eek said:

    Another good way out is I read the executive summary but not the full report.

    You would make a great politician.....
    Mrs Thatcher said if she read every report in full she wouldn’t have any other time to do things as a minister/PM, Dave concurred.

    What you’re reliant on is a staff who know what to prioritise for you to know about.
    I suspect you don't actually have time to read the executive summary of all the reports - even they will need to be prioritised..
    I was told there was a MOD report that a 150 page executive summary.
    In that case - you call in the chief and ask him to give someone else a 10 minute summary of what's important who can then write a page of bullet points up...
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,639
    rcs1000 said:

    boulay said:



    rcs1000 said:

    FPT: "Out of curiosity, by what mechanism is it proposed to decarbonise shipping? "

    There are some projects looking to install CO2 capture on ships.

    Other approach is to use ammonia as a carbon-free fuel.

    I quite like the modern sails idea - see the Pyxis Ocean, whose sails were developed by a British company.
    I should probably research it myself but likely someone on here knows already but I would love to know how useful the modern airships being developed could be for cargo transport.

    I clearly have no idea how much weight they can shift, range, speed and susceptibility to bad weather but I have images of “sky trains” of them moving along below plane flight altitudes with perhaps one manned and the rest linked to it by satellite (if indeed all can’t be unmanned) delivering cargo that’s not “urgent”.

    Airships are not a viable transport method for cargo shipping. They can carry only limited amounts. They are very slow. And if the wind is against you, they are incredibly inefficient. (Or indeed, don't even work at all.)
    Shame, I liked the idea of these quiet whale like pods floating across the channel delivering goods to and from France for example at a leisurely pace.
  • eekeek Posts: 31,529
    rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Well that explains it. People who do the 'postcode lottery' are going to be skewed towards Reform. Course they are. Knock 5 pts off to get a better estimate. That's what I'll be doing from now on anyway. Really useful header, thank you.

    I like the sound of your enthusiasm. Care to back it with some money?

    {Modifying the results of a "Rogue Pollster" has been the cause of the ruin of many a poor gambler}
    Yes you have to be careful. But that's what I'll be doing. 5 pts off Reform. No £ at this point though. Such volatile times.
    1) Rogue Pollsters are ones you disagree with
    2) I am finding absolutely no support for Labour among people I know - middle of the road or the hard core lefties. Especially noticeable is that in casual, non-politics obsessed conversation, every action of the Government is seen as a tired joke.
    3) Several acquaintances are going Reform, to my shock. And disgust.
    4) Council election results seem to show that Reform are doing very well - in places where Labour/Conservatives/Others used to dominate.

    To be clear. The current government is meeeeeeeeeeeeh. A Reform Government will be very, very bad in an active fashion. But this is about where I *bet* on things happening.
    If you believe current council by-elections, then the UK is heading for Ed Davey for Nigel Farage!
    Redcar had a Lib Dem MP from 2010 to 2015...
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