Skip to content

The most selfish generation? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,727
edited October 9 in General
The most selfish generation? – politicalbetting.com

Should the responsibility for alleviating pensioner poverty rest more with working people in younger generations or with richer pensioners?All Britons: 34% richer pensioners / 29% younger workers18-24: 54% / 10%25-49: 38% / 22%50-64: 27% / 35%65+: 24% / 42%yougov.co.uk/society/arti…

Read the full story here

«13456

Comments

  • eekeek Posts: 31,494
    First
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,420
    Second time around.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,244
    edited October 9
    Leon said:

    I’m in a San Francisco hotel that has robot room service. But the robots are the slightly boring kind, like dumb 3CPOs, or glorified Roombas

    Much more interesting is this. Just launched an hour ago

    https://x.com/figure_robot/status/1976272678618308864?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    I remember once @Benpointer saying “wake me up when a robot can stack my dishwasher”

    Well, here it is, Ben. About two years after you asked for it. These will soon start appearing in posh hotels, then exponentially spread

    Except it still can't stack your dishwasher. That demo is all tele-operatored or mimic the teleoperated demostration. The marketing copy is very careful in using phrases like "designed to operate in". It makes no claims beyond its a platform that has the potential to be trained to do x. But teleoperated robot arms / robot arms that are shown a task and asked to repeat have been able to manipulate plates, glasses etc for quite a long time, the huge difficult is the robot doing it all itself and generalising away from mimicing.

    What they are showing off is that the robot is now containing a lot more sensors and the hands have better dystextia that can be potentially leveraged to learn to do tasks.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,926

    Leon said:

    I’m in a San Francisco hotel that has robot room service. But the robots are the slightly boring kind, like dumb 3CPOs, or glorified Roombas

    Much more interesting is this. Just launched an hour ago

    https://x.com/figure_robot/status/1976272678618308864?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    I remember once @Benpointer saying “wake me up when a robot can stack my dishwasher”

    Well, here it is, Ben. About two years after you asked for it. These will soon start appearing in posh hotels, then exponentially spread

    Except it still can't stack your dishwasher. That demo is all tele-operatored or mimic the teleoperated demostration. The marketing copy is very careful in using phrases like "designed to operate in". It makes no claims beyond its a platform that has the potential to be trained to do x. But teleoperated robot arms / robot arms that are shown a task and asked to repeat have been able to manipulate plates, glasses etc for quite a long time, the huge difficult is the robot doing it all itself and generalising away from mimicing.

    What they are showing off is that the robot is now containing a lot more sensors that can be potentially leveraged to learn to do tasks.
    @TSE has told me I’m not allowed to talk about this. So, much as I’d like to reply, I shan’t
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,990
    edited October 9
    Growing the pot to be shared out is the only answer.

    Squabbling over a declining amount of national wealth is a recipe for dystopia, and any party which overly focuses on who pays what, at the expense of growth, will not get my vote.

    (Which is not to say that I would oppose necessary tax increases.)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,863
    edited October 9
    Sandpit said:

    Second time around.

    How do you know that Manc isn't the airport for Prestwick?

    But, seriously, a most alarming report. I was very surprised anyone would want to land at Edinburgh (though the wind was possibly more or less along the runway, IIRC).
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,498
    Everyone wants someone else to fix their problems.

    It's the sort of polling that makes Anarchism appealing. If the State exists only to force you to fix someone else's problems, because they're unwilling to do so themselves, then the State needs smashing.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,200
    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    Second time around.

    How do you know that Manc isn't the airport for Prestwick?

    But, seriously, a most alarming report. I was very surprised anyone would want to land at Edinburgh (though the wind was possibly more or less along the runway, IIRC).
    Have we done the Air India 787 flight from Amritsar to Brum a few days back? RAT was deployed but otherwise landed OK.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 67,880
    edited October 9
    This leads inevitable to increased retirement age and eventually means testing

    And the triple lock is absurd so why can't the parties come to an agreement to scrap it ?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,926

    Leon said:

    I’m in a San Francisco hotel that has robot room service. But the robots are the slightly boring kind, like dumb 3CPOs, or glorified Roombas

    Much more interesting is this. Just launched an hour ago

    https://x.com/figure_robot/status/1976272678618308864?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    I remember once @Benpointer saying “wake me up when a robot can stack my dishwasher”

    Well, here it is, Ben. About two years after you asked for it. These will soon start appearing in posh hotels, then exponentially spread

    Except it still can't stack your dishwasher. That demo is all tele-operatored or mimic the teleoperated demostration. The marketing copy is very careful in using phrases like "designed to operate in". It makes no claims beyond its a platform that has the potential to be trained to do x. But teleoperated robot arms / robot arms that are shown a task and asked to repeat have been able to manipulate plates, glasses etc for quite a long time, the huge difficult is the robot doing it all itself and generalising away from mimicing.

    What they are showing off is that the robot is now containing a lot more sensors and the hands have better dystextia that can be potentially leveraged to learn to do tasks.
    I’ve DM’d you
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,244
    Inside DOGE, The IRS & How to Scam the US Government - Sam Corcos
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4odAXoqRT8
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,241

    I'm guessing that the pensioner gravy train will derail just before I reach retirement age.

    I am looking to retire when I hit 55 which is less than a decade away.

    I’ve always worked on the assumption that I’ll never get a state pension.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,244
    edited October 9
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I’m in a San Francisco hotel that has robot room service. But the robots are the slightly boring kind, like dumb 3CPOs, or glorified Roombas

    Much more interesting is this. Just launched an hour ago

    https://x.com/figure_robot/status/1976272678618308864?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    I remember once @Benpointer saying “wake me up when a robot can stack my dishwasher”

    Well, here it is, Ben. About two years after you asked for it. These will soon start appearing in posh hotels, then exponentially spread

    Except it still can't stack your dishwasher. That demo is all tele-operatored or mimic the teleoperated demostration. The marketing copy is very careful in using phrases like "designed to operate in". It makes no claims beyond its a platform that has the potential to be trained to do x. But teleoperated robot arms / robot arms that are shown a task and asked to repeat have been able to manipulate plates, glasses etc for quite a long time, the huge difficult is the robot doing it all itself and generalising away from mimicing.

    What they are showing off is that the robot is now containing a lot more sensors and the hands have better dystextia that can be potentially leveraged to learn to do tasks.
    I’ve DM’d you
    Replied. Again the reply tweet is very careful what it doesn't say.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,863

    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    Second time around.

    How do you know that Manc isn't the airport for Prestwick?

    But, seriously, a most alarming report. I was very surprised anyone would want to land at Edinburgh (though the wind was possibly more or less along the runway, IIRC).
    Have we done the Air India 787 flight from Amritsar to Brum a few days back? RAT was deployed but otherwise landed OK.
    Oh, didn't know about that. Pilot Prune puzzled, it seems, on checking.

    https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/668558-air-india-ramair-deployment.html?highlight=air+india
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 5,383
    edited October 9

    I'm guessing that the pensioner gravy train will derail just before I reach retirement age.

    I am looking to retire when I hit 55 which is less than a decade away.

    I’ve always worked on the assumption that I’ll never get a state pension.
    Me too, although I'm a decade ahead on your schedule and given the government is still selling NI credits, I think my assumption was too pessimistic.

    However, if the triple lock remains for another dozen years, the bill will be utterly unaffordable.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,859
    If the state pension becomes entirely means tested then most people I know would have very little reason to vote to retain it at all.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,049

    kinabalu said:

    Say what you like about Trump he does seem to have pulled off this Gaza peace deal with reports he is flying to Israel on Sunday

    I don't think Trump has pulled off this peace deal. I think the people who wrote it + US diplomats + changing circumstances have made it become possible. Trump has helped in that process.
    It could and should have happened a long time ago. The ceasefire and hostage release, I mean. A genuine lasting peace deal is something else. If that is in due course achieved, fantastic, and Trump will for once merit praise and plaudits.
    Indeed, I've been saying for years this war should end with the surrender of Hamas, their disarmament and removal from office and the release of all hostages.

    Many people here have been opposing demanding the surrender of Hamas, calling demanding that "unrealistic" or "genocide" and other such bullshit.

    Much bloodshed could have been avoided if Hamas had surrendered and released the hostages sooner, but kudos to Israel for not accepting a ceasefire before they did. Good job.

    And no mythical "genocide".

    A lot of people here have egg on their face.
    How so?

    Why don't you read how Bibi harnessed Hamas for his own agenda?

    You spout absolute nonsense denying reality and then you claim everyone else looks ridiculous.
  • kinabalu said:

    Say what you like about Trump he does seem to have pulled off this Gaza peace deal with reports he is flying to Israel on Sunday

    I don't think Trump has pulled off this peace deal. I think the people who wrote it + US diplomats + changing circumstances have made it become possible. Trump has helped in that process.
    It could and should have happened a long time ago. The ceasefire and hostage release, I mean. A genuine lasting peace deal is something else. If that is in due course achieved, fantastic, and Trump will for once merit praise and plaudits.
    Indeed, I've been saying for years this war should end with the surrender of Hamas, their disarmament and removal from office and the release of all hostages.

    Many people here have been opposing demanding the surrender of Hamas, calling demanding that "unrealistic" or "genocide" and other such bullshit.

    Much bloodshed could have been avoided if Hamas had surrendered and released the hostages sooner, but kudos to Israel for not accepting a ceasefire before they did. Good job.

    And no mythical "genocide".

    A lot of people here have egg on their face.
    How so?

    Why don't you read how Bibi harnessed Hamas for his own agenda?

    You spout absolute nonsense denying reality and then you claim everyone else looks ridiculous.
    Bibi should be in prison and has nothing to do with it.

    Hamas should be disarmed and hopefully with this surrender now they will be.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,712

    I'm guessing that the pensioner gravy train will derail just before I reach retirement age.

    I am looking to retire when I hit 55 which is less than a decade away.

    I’ve always worked on the assumption that I’ll never get a state pension.
    Me too, although I'm a decade ahead on your schedule and given the government is still selling NI credits, I think my assumption was too pessimistic.

    However, if the triple lock remains for another dozen years, the bill will be utterly unaffordable.
    Unless you were born before April 1973, you'll have to wait until 57 to claim your private pension, and there'll be a number aged between 55 and 57 in April 28 who'll have been eligible at 55 then become ineligible until 57...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,634

    Three quarters of pensioners own their own home.

    The same can not be said about working people.

    Working people's wages should go to themselves first, before it goes to anyone else.

    Working people should not be worse off than those who are not working.

    How is somebody in a low wage job ever supposed to be better off than somebody retired from a high wage one?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,049

    kinabalu said:

    Say what you like about Trump he does seem to have pulled off this Gaza peace deal with reports he is flying to Israel on Sunday

    I don't think Trump has pulled off this peace deal. I think the people who wrote it + US diplomats + changing circumstances have made it become possible. Trump has helped in that process.
    It could and should have happened a long time ago. The ceasefire and hostage release, I mean. A genuine lasting peace deal is something else. If that is in due course achieved, fantastic, and Trump will for once merit praise and plaudits.
    Indeed, I've been saying for years this war should end with the surrender of Hamas, their disarmament and removal from office and the release of all hostages.

    Many people here have been opposing demanding the surrender of Hamas, calling demanding that "unrealistic" or "genocide" and other such bullshit.

    Much bloodshed could have been avoided if Hamas had surrendered and released the hostages sooner, but kudos to Israel for not accepting a ceasefire before they did. Good job.

    And no mythical "genocide".

    A lot of people here have egg on their face.
    How so?

    Why don't you read how Bibi harnessed Hamas for his own agenda?

    You spout absolute nonsense denying reality and then you claim everyone else looks ridiculous.
    Bibi should be in prison and has nothing to do with it.

    Hamas should be disarmed and hopefully with this surrender now they will be.
    Part of this Blair deal is Hamas warlords get to stay in their Doha condos unhindered.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,287

    I'm guessing that the pensioner gravy train will derail just before I reach retirement age.

    I am looking to retire when I hit 55 which is less than a decade away.

    I’ve always worked on the assumption that I’ll never get a state pension.
    You see this a lot now.

    One of a set of related lies seeded by (probably) Russian trolls.

    Wealthy boomer pensioners vote themselves the triple lock which will bankrupt the pension system before today's workers can claim.

    First, our baby boom generation is in its 60s, not 70s (from which I infer foreign trolls started this). Second, there is a lot of pensioner poverty. Third, it will be decades before the triple lock seriously impacts affordability of what compared with our peer nations is not a generous pension. Demographics are more of a problem as the baby boom generation (remember them) nears retirement age.

    The other curious thing is the well-paid pundits never point to their own perks, like higher rate tax relief on private pension contributions, or salary sacrifice, or free childcare for couples on £200,000 (well, technically just under £100k each). Again this points in my tin foil mind to troll-sown discord rather than serious analysis.
  • kinabalu said:

    Say what you like about Trump he does seem to have pulled off this Gaza peace deal with reports he is flying to Israel on Sunday

    I don't think Trump has pulled off this peace deal. I think the people who wrote it + US diplomats + changing circumstances have made it become possible. Trump has helped in that process.
    It could and should have happened a long time ago. The ceasefire and hostage release, I mean. A genuine lasting peace deal is something else. If that is in due course achieved, fantastic, and Trump will for once merit praise and plaudits.
    Indeed, I've been saying for years this war should end with the surrender of Hamas, their disarmament and removal from office and the release of all hostages.

    Many people here have been opposing demanding the surrender of Hamas, calling demanding that "unrealistic" or "genocide" and other such bullshit.

    Much bloodshed could have been avoided if Hamas had surrendered and released the hostages sooner, but kudos to Israel for not accepting a ceasefire before they did. Good job.

    And no mythical "genocide".

    A lot of people here have egg on their face.
    How so?

    Why don't you read how Bibi harnessed Hamas for his own agenda?

    You spout absolute nonsense denying reality and then you claim everyone else looks ridiculous.
    Bibi should be in prison and has nothing to do with it.

    Hamas should be disarmed and hopefully with this surrender now they will be.
    Part of this Blair deal is Hamas warlords get to stay in their Doha condos unhindered.
    If they GTFO of Gaza and bugger off to Doha, then that's not ideal but realistic and acceptable.

    What's not acceptable is them remaining in Gaza or armed.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,990

    This leads inevitable to increased retirement age and eventually means testing

    And the triple lock is absurd so why can't the parties come to an agreement to scrap it ?

    Germany I believe is looking at 73 for a new retirement age ?
    (Though that would be phased in up to 2060.)

    And yes, the triple lock nonsense needs to be scrapped.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,859

    I'm guessing that the pensioner gravy train will derail just before I reach retirement age.

    I am looking to retire when I hit 55 which is less than a decade away.

    I’ve always worked on the assumption that I’ll never get a state pension.
    You see this a lot now.

    One of a set of related lies seeded by (probably) Russian trolls.

    Wealthy boomer pensioners vote themselves the triple lock which will bankrupt the pension system before today's workers can claim.

    First, our baby boom generation is in its 60s, not 70s (from which I infer foreign trolls started this). Second, there is a lot of pensioner poverty. Third, it will be decades before the triple lock seriously impacts affordability of what compared with our peer nations is not a generous pension. Demographics are more of a problem as the baby boom generation (remember them) nears retirement age.

    The other curious thing is the well-paid pundits never point to their own perks, like higher rate tax relief on private pension contributions, or salary sacrifice, or free childcare for couples on £200,000 (well, technically just under £100k each). Again this points in my tin foil mind to troll-sown discord rather than serious analysis.
    That the state pension won't survive has been a quietly expressed fear for far long than social media has been around.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,816
    kinabalu said:

    Three quarters of pensioners own their own home.

    The same can not be said about working people.

    Working people's wages should go to themselves first, before it goes to anyone else.

    Working people should not be worse off than those who are not working.

    How is somebody in a low wage job ever supposed to be better off than somebody retired from a high wage one?
    Perhaps we should confirm whether @BartholomewRoberts believes in private property? ;)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,990
    This is quite the move by China.
    A wakeup call for the west to sort out its manufacturing industries.

    CHINA JUST WEAPONIZED THE ENTIRE RARE EARTH SUPPLY CHAIN

    get used to reading chinese MOFCOM bulletins because they're writing american industrial policy now.

    announced today: any product containing >0.1% chinese rare earth materials needs beijing's approval before re-export to third countries.

    doesn't matter if you manufactured it in taiwan, vietnam, or texas.

    chinese dysprosium in your magnet? chinese gallium in your chip? beijing gets veto power over the sale.

    this is the nuclear option. US spent 3 years trying to deny china access to advanced chipmaking tools. china just responded with chokehold on literally every semiconductor fab, AI data center, defense contractor, and EV manufacturer on earth.

    everything runs on chinese rare earths. building alternative supply chains takes 5-10 years minimum.

    we don't have 5-10 years. effective december 1st.

    the AI boom just hit a hard ceiling and we're still pretending we can offshore our way to prosperity.

    time to reindustrialize like our lives depend on it. because they do.

    https://x.com/aphysicist/status/1976272490172231701

    As with the US chip restrictions, enforcement will be somewhat leaky, but they've shown the ability to interrupt supplies of rare earths for extended period of time, so it can;t be brushed aside.

    And duplicating anything like their refining and processing capacity will be a project that takes quite a number of years.
    This is a critical supply chain for just about everything important, so we need to get on with it.

    In one respect, this is just a hardball negotiating tactic, but at the same time, it is a deadly serious threat to western manufacturing and defence industries.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,287
    In the Nobel Peace Prize betting, Sky has Trump odds-on but you can get 3/1 against from Ladbrokes and Corals and 9/1 on Betfair.

    This means there is probably serious value for anyone with a clue about the other contenders, which rules me out.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,926
    Even by Guardian standards this is a quite outrageously misleading headline


    “‘We don’t want to be a toy town’: has Brexit sunk this historic UK fishing fleet?”

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/oct/09/hastings-brexit-sunk-historic-uk-fishing-fleet

    If you read the text, what they mean by “Brexit” is actually Keir Starmer’s pathetic, treacherous fishing deal when he gave everything to the French for 12 years, in return for… nothing
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,990

    In the Nobel Peace Prize betting, Sky has Trump odds-on but you can get 3/1 against from Ladbrokes and Corals and 9/1 on Betfair.

    This means there is probably serious value for anyone with a clue about the other contenders, which rules me out.

    I really don't care, TBH.
    The Kissinger precedent renders it perfectly possible, while no less absurd.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,634

    In the Nobel Peace Prize betting, Sky has Trump odds-on but you can get 3/1 against from Ladbrokes and Corals and 9/1 on Betfair.

    This means there is probably serious value for anyone with a clue about the other contenders, which rules me out.

    I'm on at 14. It would fit the times.
  • Would it be practical to get some sort of political consensus regarding the percentage of the population that should receive the state pension? I understand that the current figure is probably just under 20%. Suppose everyone agreed that the number should not exceed 20%, and if that looked like it was likely to happen then the pensionable age would be increased accordingly.

    For a variety of reasons (not least the NHS and personal understanding of health initiatives) we live in an ageing society. When Lloyd George introduced the Old Age Penion in 1909, it was payable to people aged over 75. Over the years we reduced it to 60 for some people, and have now raised it to 66 for everyone, but the expectation was that it would be paid to a few people, in exceptional circumstances, not to a fifth of the population.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,764
    Leon said:

    Even by Guardian standards this is a quite outrageously misleading headline


    “‘We don’t want to be a toy town’: has Brexit sunk this historic UK fishing fleet?”

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/oct/09/hastings-brexit-sunk-historic-uk-fishing-fleet

    If you read the text, what they mean by “Brexit” is actually Keir Starmer’s pathetic, treacherous fishing deal when he gave everything to the French for 12 years, in return for… nothing

    Before SKS:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c066r811z7ro

    Perhaps, just perhaps, we need to understand that fishermen, like farmers, always complain.

    Therefore most of their complaints should be ignored... :)
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,634

    kinabalu said:

    Say what you like about Trump he does seem to have pulled off this Gaza peace deal with reports he is flying to Israel on Sunday

    I don't think Trump has pulled off this peace deal. I think the people who wrote it + US diplomats + changing circumstances have made it become possible. Trump has helped in that process.
    It could and should have happened a long time ago. The ceasefire and hostage release, I mean. A genuine lasting peace deal is something else. If that is in due course achieved, fantastic, and Trump will for once merit praise and plaudits.
    Indeed, I've been saying for years this war should end with the surrender of Hamas, their disarmament and removal from office and the release of all hostages.

    Many people here have been opposing demanding the surrender of Hamas, calling demanding that "unrealistic" or "genocide" and other such bullshit.

    Much bloodshed could have been avoided if Hamas had surrendered and released the hostages sooner, but kudos to Israel for not accepting a ceasefire before they did. Good job.

    And no mythical "genocide".

    A lot of people here have egg on their face.
    How so?

    Why don't you read how Bibi harnessed Hamas for his own agenda?

    You spout absolute nonsense denying reality and then you claim everyone else looks ridiculous.
    You are discussing things with somebody who looks at what Netanyahu has done to Gaza and its population and awards it the epithet "good job" 🤷‍♂️
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,287

    Would it be practical to get some sort of political consensus regarding the percentage of the population that should receive the state pension? I understand that the current figure is probably just under 20%. Suppose everyone agreed that the number should not exceed 20%, and if that looked like it was likely to happen then the pensionable age would be increased accordingly.

    For a variety of reasons (not least the NHS and personal understanding of health initiatives) we live in an ageing society. When Lloyd George introduced the Old Age Penion in 1909, it was payable to people aged over 75. Over the years we reduced it to 60 for some people, and have now raised it to 66 for everyone, but the expectation was that it would be paid to a few people, in exceptional circumstances, not to a fifth of the population.

    An awkward calculation that ignores the reality of ageing. We can't have 70-year-olds digging coal just because there are lots of 80-year-olds. And if we fill offices with the elderly, how will the young get jobs?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,890
    Nigelb said:

    This is quite the move by China.
    A wakeup call for the west to sort out its manufacturing industries.

    CHINA JUST WEAPONIZED THE ENTIRE RARE EARTH SUPPLY CHAIN

    get used to reading chinese MOFCOM bulletins because they're writing american industrial policy now.

    announced today: any product containing >0.1% chinese rare earth materials needs beijing's approval before re-export to third countries.

    doesn't matter if you manufactured it in taiwan, vietnam, or texas.

    chinese dysprosium in your magnet? chinese gallium in your chip? beijing gets veto power over the sale.

    this is the nuclear option. US spent 3 years trying to deny china access to advanced chipmaking tools. china just responded with chokehold on literally every semiconductor fab, AI data center, defense contractor, and EV manufacturer on earth.

    everything runs on chinese rare earths. building alternative supply chains takes 5-10 years minimum.

    we don't have 5-10 years. effective december 1st.

    the AI boom just hit a hard ceiling and we're still pretending we can offshore our way to prosperity.

    time to reindustrialize like our lives depend on it. because they do.

    https://x.com/aphysicist/status/1976272490172231701

    As with the US chip restrictions, enforcement will be somewhat leaky, but they've shown the ability to interrupt supplies of rare earths for extended period of time, so it can;t be brushed aside.

    And duplicating anything like their refining and processing capacity will be a project that takes quite a number of years.
    This is a critical supply chain for just about everything important, so we need to get on with it.

    In one respect, this is just a hardball negotiating tactic, but at the same time, it is a deadly serious threat to western manufacturing and defence industries.

    Fortunately, there's nothing particularly rare about rare eaths.

    When one flexes ones muscles like this, one creates massive incentives for mining companies to invest in new production. And then -suddenly- China won't be the only supplier. And you have also made yourself an unreliable partner, which impacts everything going forward.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,244
    edited October 9
    A Gogglebox star has been appearing on the Channel 4 show while being signed off from his NHS day job with stress.

    Sid Siddiqui, 80, has continued to take part in the fly-on-the-wall series while absent from his taxpayer-funded role as a health service environmental manager, which, it is understood, he worked at three days a week.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15176721/Gogglebox-star-80-hit-Channel-4-signed-stress-62k-year-NHS-job.html

    Now this is a very weird story not for the headline reason. First all the promo online says he was retired, which you would expect from somebody who is 80 YEARS OLD. Something doesn't add up here.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,902
    So is the ceasefire holding?
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,859
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,634
    RobD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Three quarters of pensioners own their own home.

    The same can not be said about working people.

    Working people's wages should go to themselves first, before it goes to anyone else.

    Working people should not be worse off than those who are not working.

    How is somebody in a low wage job ever supposed to be better off than somebody retired from a high wage one?
    Perhaps we should confirm whether @BartholomewRoberts believes in private property? ;)
    I'm getting excited about a possible socialist convert. If somebody like Bart is going that way it bodes very well for Corbyn and Polanski.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,902
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is quite the move by China.
    A wakeup call for the west to sort out its manufacturing industries.

    CHINA JUST WEAPONIZED THE ENTIRE RARE EARTH SUPPLY CHAIN

    get used to reading chinese MOFCOM bulletins because they're writing american industrial policy now.

    announced today: any product containing >0.1% chinese rare earth materials needs beijing's approval before re-export to third countries.

    doesn't matter if you manufactured it in taiwan, vietnam, or texas.

    chinese dysprosium in your magnet? chinese gallium in your chip? beijing gets veto power over the sale.

    this is the nuclear option. US spent 3 years trying to deny china access to advanced chipmaking tools. china just responded with chokehold on literally every semiconductor fab, AI data center, defense contractor, and EV manufacturer on earth.

    everything runs on chinese rare earths. building alternative supply chains takes 5-10 years minimum.

    we don't have 5-10 years. effective december 1st.

    the AI boom just hit a hard ceiling and we're still pretending we can offshore our way to prosperity.

    time to reindustrialize like our lives depend on it. because they do.

    https://x.com/aphysicist/status/1976272490172231701

    As with the US chip restrictions, enforcement will be somewhat leaky, but they've shown the ability to interrupt supplies of rare earths for extended period of time, so it can;t be brushed aside.

    And duplicating anything like their refining and processing capacity will be a project that takes quite a number of years.
    This is a critical supply chain for just about everything important, so we need to get on with it.

    In one respect, this is just a hardball negotiating tactic, but at the same time, it is a deadly serious threat to western manufacturing and defence industries.

    Fortunately, there's nothing particularly rare about rare eaths.

    When one flexes ones muscles like this, one creates massive incentives for mining companies to invest in new production. And then -suddenly- China won't be the only supplier. And you have also made yourself an unreliable partner, which impacts everything going forward.
    Well I also don't know how China intends to enforce such a law.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,244
    MaxPB said:

    So is the ceasefire holding?

    Between Zara Sultana and Jezza Corbyn, Leon and half of PB, ....?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,890

    Would it be practical to get some sort of political consensus regarding the percentage of the population that should receive the state pension? I understand that the current figure is probably just under 20%. Suppose everyone agreed that the number should not exceed 20%, and if that looked like it was likely to happen then the pensionable age would be increased accordingly.

    For a variety of reasons (not least the NHS and personal understanding of health initiatives) we live in an ageing society. When Lloyd George introduced the Old Age Penion in 1909, it was payable to people aged over 75. Over the years we reduced it to 60 for some people, and have now raised it to 66 for everyone, but the expectation was that it would be paid to a few people, in exceptional circumstances, not to a fifth of the population.

    An awkward calculation that ignores the reality of ageing. We can't have 70-year-olds digging coal just because there are lots of 80-year-olds. And if we fill offices with the elderly, how will the young get jobs?
    Why not?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,688
    edited October 9
    Dopermean said:

    I'm guessing that the pensioner gravy train will derail just before I reach retirement age.

    I am looking to retire when I hit 55 which is less than a decade away.

    I’ve always worked on the assumption that I’ll never get a state pension.
    Me too, although I'm a decade ahead on your schedule and given the government is still selling NI credits, I think my assumption was too pessimistic.

    However, if the triple lock remains for another dozen years, the bill will be utterly unaffordable.
    Unless you were born before April 1973, you'll have to wait until 57 to claim your private pension, and there'll be a number aged between 55 and 57 in April 28 who'll have been eligible at 55 then become ineligible until 57...
    Im in that group. Theres a six month window where I cant take private pensions unless ive already started taking them in the preceding 18 months.
    Im looking at whether to take some, all or none at the moment.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,990
    edited October 9
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is quite the move by China.
    A wakeup call for the west to sort out its manufacturing industries.

    CHINA JUST WEAPONIZED THE ENTIRE RARE EARTH SUPPLY CHAIN

    get used to reading chinese MOFCOM bulletins because they're writing american industrial policy now.

    announced today: any product containing >0.1% chinese rare earth materials needs beijing's approval before re-export to third countries.

    doesn't matter if you manufactured it in taiwan, vietnam, or texas.

    chinese dysprosium in your magnet? chinese gallium in your chip? beijing gets veto power over the sale.

    this is the nuclear option. US spent 3 years trying to deny china access to advanced chipmaking tools. china just responded with chokehold on literally every semiconductor fab, AI data center, defense contractor, and EV manufacturer on earth.

    everything runs on chinese rare earths. building alternative supply chains takes 5-10 years minimum.

    we don't have 5-10 years. effective december 1st.

    the AI boom just hit a hard ceiling and we're still pretending we can offshore our way to prosperity.

    time to reindustrialize like our lives depend on it. because they do.

    https://x.com/aphysicist/status/1976272490172231701

    As with the US chip restrictions, enforcement will be somewhat leaky, but they've shown the ability to interrupt supplies of rare earths for extended period of time, so it can;t be brushed aside.

    And duplicating anything like their refining and processing capacity will be a project that takes quite a number of years.
    This is a critical supply chain for just about everything important, so we need to get on with it.

    In one respect, this is just a hardball negotiating tactic, but at the same time, it is a deadly serious threat to western manufacturing and defence industries.

    Fortunately, there's nothing particularly rare about rare eaths.

    When one flexes ones muscles like this, one creates massive incentives for mining companies to invest in new production. And then -suddenly- China won't be the only supplier. And you have also made yourself an unreliable partner, which impacts everything going forward.
    Mining really isn't what this is about.
    China processes over 90% of rare earth production, which is a lot more than their share of world mining.
    It will take years to duplicate that capability - and it's not just having the facilities; their processing technology is far in advance of elsewhere, as they've had a virtual monopoly on the market for a decade.

    You can make exactly the same remarks about US chip restrictions. Over time, it's quite likely China will duplicate western technology there (and their government is spending tens of billions to encourage that), but in the meantime, they're very effective.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,863

    A Gogglebox star has been appearing on the Channel 4 show while being signed off from his NHS day job with stress.

    Sid Siddiqui, 80, has continued to take part in the fly-on-the-wall series while absent from his taxpayer-funded role as a health service environmental manager, which, it is understood, he worked at three days a week.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15176721/Gogglebox-star-80-hit-Channel-4-signed-stress-62k-year-NHS-job.html

    Now this is a very weird story not for the headline reason. First all the promo online says he was retired, which you would expect from somebody who is 80 YEARS OLD. Something doesn't add up here.

    The obvious explanation is that he went on long term sick leave, which IIRC could generate automatic retirement after 6 or 12 months at that age (I forget which is usual). So hje'd indeed be retired now. Conflated ot telescoped by the DM writers, deliberately or otherwise?

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,388
    edited October 9
    These findings fill me with incredulity.

    The sense of entitlement is unbelievable.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,764
    Off-topic:

    I've just realised that Mark Blundell, ex-F1 and Cart driver, and Le-Mans winner, and one of my childhood heroes, lives just off the road where I take my son every week to go swimming. I've even run right past his place.

    No, I'm not going to turn into a stalker.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,388
    MaxPB said:

    So is the ceasefire holding?

    No. Young people are about to break into all-out war against the Boomers.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,244
    edited October 9
    Carnyx said:

    A Gogglebox star has been appearing on the Channel 4 show while being signed off from his NHS day job with stress.

    Sid Siddiqui, 80, has continued to take part in the fly-on-the-wall series while absent from his taxpayer-funded role as a health service environmental manager, which, it is understood, he worked at three days a week.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15176721/Gogglebox-star-80-hit-Channel-4-signed-stress-62k-year-NHS-job.html

    Now this is a very weird story not for the headline reason. First all the promo online says he was retired, which you would expect from somebody who is 80 YEARS OLD. Something doesn't add up here.

    The obvious explanation is that he went on long term sick leave, which IIRC could generate automatic retirement after 6 or 12 months at that age (I forget which is usual). So hje'd indeed be retired now. Conflated ot telescoped by the DM writers, deliberately or otherwise?

    Apr 28, 2018
    https://x.com/DCHStrust/status/990168889567965184

    So at 73 he was definitely still employed with them but on the sick. He started on the show 12 years ago.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,890

    A Gogglebox star has been appearing on the Channel 4 show while being signed off from his NHS day job with stress.

    Sid Siddiqui, 80, has continued to take part in the fly-on-the-wall series while absent from his taxpayer-funded role as a health service environmental manager, which, it is understood, he worked at three days a week.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15176721/Gogglebox-star-80-hit-Channel-4-signed-stress-62k-year-NHS-job.html

    Now this is a very weird story not for the headline reason. First all the promo online says he was retired, which you would expect from somebody who is 80 YEARS OLD. Something doesn't add up here.

    That is extremely strange.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,764
    Foss said:
    The release of all the hostages should be the first stage towards peace. That's been obvious from the very beginning. And they were not released because Hamas were not interested in peace.

    Neither was Israel; but the hostages were a blooming good excuse for Netanyahu to continue his war...

    Once the hostages are released, Netanyahu will find much 'support' for his war disappearing.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,890
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is quite the move by China.
    A wakeup call for the west to sort out its manufacturing industries.

    CHINA JUST WEAPONIZED THE ENTIRE RARE EARTH SUPPLY CHAIN

    get used to reading chinese MOFCOM bulletins because they're writing american industrial policy now.

    announced today: any product containing >0.1% chinese rare earth materials needs beijing's approval before re-export to third countries.

    doesn't matter if you manufactured it in taiwan, vietnam, or texas.

    chinese dysprosium in your magnet? chinese gallium in your chip? beijing gets veto power over the sale.

    this is the nuclear option. US spent 3 years trying to deny china access to advanced chipmaking tools. china just responded with chokehold on literally every semiconductor fab, AI data center, defense contractor, and EV manufacturer on earth.

    everything runs on chinese rare earths. building alternative supply chains takes 5-10 years minimum.

    we don't have 5-10 years. effective december 1st.

    the AI boom just hit a hard ceiling and we're still pretending we can offshore our way to prosperity.

    time to reindustrialize like our lives depend on it. because they do.

    https://x.com/aphysicist/status/1976272490172231701

    As with the US chip restrictions, enforcement will be somewhat leaky, but they've shown the ability to interrupt supplies of rare earths for extended period of time, so it can;t be brushed aside.

    And duplicating anything like their refining and processing capacity will be a project that takes quite a number of years.
    This is a critical supply chain for just about everything important, so we need to get on with it.

    In one respect, this is just a hardball negotiating tactic, but at the same time, it is a deadly serious threat to western manufacturing and defence industries.

    Fortunately, there's nothing particularly rare about rare eaths.

    When one flexes ones muscles like this, one creates massive incentives for mining companies to invest in new production. And then -suddenly- China won't be the only supplier. And you have also made yourself an unreliable partner, which impacts everything going forward.
    Well I also don't know how China intends to enforce such a law.
    With great difficulty: but presumably Chinese mining company [x] will get into trouble if one of the people it sells to, sells to someone it shouldn't. Like the US government clamps down on networking companies (like Ubiquiti) whose kit ends up in Iran.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,890
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is quite the move by China.
    A wakeup call for the west to sort out its manufacturing industries.

    CHINA JUST WEAPONIZED THE ENTIRE RARE EARTH SUPPLY CHAIN

    get used to reading chinese MOFCOM bulletins because they're writing american industrial policy now.

    announced today: any product containing >0.1% chinese rare earth materials needs beijing's approval before re-export to third countries.

    doesn't matter if you manufactured it in taiwan, vietnam, or texas.

    chinese dysprosium in your magnet? chinese gallium in your chip? beijing gets veto power over the sale.

    this is the nuclear option. US spent 3 years trying to deny china access to advanced chipmaking tools. china just responded with chokehold on literally every semiconductor fab, AI data center, defense contractor, and EV manufacturer on earth.

    everything runs on chinese rare earths. building alternative supply chains takes 5-10 years minimum.

    we don't have 5-10 years. effective december 1st.

    the AI boom just hit a hard ceiling and we're still pretending we can offshore our way to prosperity.

    time to reindustrialize like our lives depend on it. because they do.

    https://x.com/aphysicist/status/1976272490172231701

    As with the US chip restrictions, enforcement will be somewhat leaky, but they've shown the ability to interrupt supplies of rare earths for extended period of time, so it can;t be brushed aside.

    And duplicating anything like their refining and processing capacity will be a project that takes quite a number of years.
    This is a critical supply chain for just about everything important, so we need to get on with it.

    In one respect, this is just a hardball negotiating tactic, but at the same time, it is a deadly serious threat to western manufacturing and defence industries.

    Fortunately, there's nothing particularly rare about rare eaths.

    When one flexes ones muscles like this, one creates massive incentives for mining companies to invest in new production. And then -suddenly- China won't be the only supplier. And you have also made yourself an unreliable partner, which impacts everything going forward.
    Mining really isn't what this is about.
    China processes over 90% of rare earth production, which is a lot more than their share of world mining.
    It will take years to duplicate that capability - and it's not just having the facilities; their processing technology is far in advance of elsewhere, as they've had a virtual monopoly on the market for a decade.

    You can make exactly the same remarks about US chip restrictions. Over time, it's quite likely China will duplicate western technology there (and their government is spending tens of billions to encourage that), but in the meantime, they're very effective.
    It may take years, but it will still happen.

    So, yes, China has inserted another bit of sand into an already slow world economy (that has been hammered by Ukraine and Trump's tariffs).

    And it will negatively impact China most of all. But we all lose. Just like with the tariffs.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,183

    These findings fill me with incredulity.

    The sense of entitlement is unbelievable.

    Suspect that it's extremely believable. We all want more for less, and are happy to screw over the future to get what we want. Even me, and I'm lovely.

    The problem with the generation born between about 1945 and 1965 is not particularly that they are more fallen than the rest of us, it's that they are more numerous. So indulging them has been a viable business and political strategy throughout their lives.

    With consequences that can only be described as "Boomers, if you seek your memorial, look around." It sounds better in Latin, I'm sure, but I did go to a comprehensive.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,262
    kinabalu said:

    Three quarters of pensioners own their own home.

    The same can not be said about working people.

    Working people's wages should go to themselves first, before it goes to anyone else.

    Working people should not be worse off than those who are not working.

    How is somebody in a low wage job ever supposed to be better off than somebody retired from a high wage one?
    Correct me if I'm wrong Bart, but I don't think that's what he's arguing. I think he's arguing that it is iniquitous that a retired teacher, say, who isn't working, is better off than a working teacher - because the retired teacher has a generous teacher's pension plus a state pension, plus could afford to buy a house on a single salary. A working teacher might be getting a higher basic income (though that is by no means a given) but faces far higher housing costs and also a more parlous retirement.
    I accept that accounting for all this is difficult.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 68,415
    18th Oct. Massive No Kings protests all over the US are being planned.

    Could be the trigger for Trump to really and finally lose the plot and throw god knows what at the protesters.

    https://www.nokings.org/
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,244
    edited October 9
    The Farage claims of all the teachers are indoctorinating our kids and are activists again seems very MAGA and "Online" where the likes of "Libs of TikTok" social media accounts bang on constantly about it.

    I don't have kids, but I don't get that the "reds under the beds" scare is something that is part of the UK political discussion around education. Rather behaviour, slipping standards, kids effected by COVID lockdown still not ready to learn are the things that my friends who do have kids bang on about.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,241

    These findings fill me with incredulity.

    The sense of entitlement is unbelievable.

    Same, I had to check with YouGov that there were no typos in the posts.

    I just cannot wrap my ahead around it, my parents think their main role in life is to spend money on their grandkids, and also leave me and them a massive inheritance.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 7,410

    Leon said:

    Even by Guardian standards this is a quite outrageously misleading headline


    “‘We don’t want to be a toy town’: has Brexit sunk this historic UK fishing fleet?”

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/oct/09/hastings-brexit-sunk-historic-uk-fishing-fleet

    If you read the text, what they mean by “Brexit” is actually Keir Starmer’s pathetic, treacherous fishing deal when he gave everything to the French for 12 years, in return for… nothing

    Before SKS:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c066r811z7ro

    Perhaps, just perhaps, we need to understand that fishermen, like farmers, always complain.

    Therefore most of their complaints should be ignored... :)
    They don't always complain: they complain when the harvest is bad or prices are low; they very cleverly shut up when the harvest is good or prices are high.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 12,068

    18th Oct. Massive No Kings protests all over the US are being planned.

    Could be the trigger for Trump to really and finally lose the plot and throw god knows what at the protesters.

    https://www.nokings.org/

    Well I'm sure that KC3 will eventually be happy to pick up the pieces and show them how wrong they've all been.

    "noamericankings.org"
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,123
    edited October 9

    These findings fill me with incredulity.

    The sense of entitlement is unbelievable.

    Suspect that it's extremely believable. We all want more for less, and are happy to screw over the future to get what we want. Even me, and I'm lovely.

    The problem with the generation born between about 1945 and 1965 is not particularly that they are more fallen than the rest of us, it's that they are more numerous. So indulging them has been a viable business and political strategy throughout their lives.

    With consequences that can only be described as "Boomers, if you seek your memorial, look around." It sounds better in Latin, I'm sure, but I did go to a comprehensive.
    • For Wren, it was "Lector si monumentum requiris, circumspice", referring to St Paul's Cathedral
    • For the Boomers it's a failed empire and an economy based on inporting hundreds of thousands of people per year whilst giving billions to foreigners in profits/rent.
    We really shat the bed on this... :(
  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,926

    The Farage claims of all the teachers are indoctorinating our kids and are activists again seems very MAGA and "Online" where the likes of "Libs of TikTok" social media accounts bang on constantly about it.

    I don't have kids, but I don't get that the "reds under the beds" scare is something that is part of the UK political discussion around education.

    Yes, it is. And I have kids
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,634
    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Three quarters of pensioners own their own home.

    The same can not be said about working people.

    Working people's wages should go to themselves first, before it goes to anyone else.

    Working people should not be worse off than those who are not working.

    How is somebody in a low wage job ever supposed to be better off than somebody retired from a high wage one?
    Correct me if I'm wrong Bart, but I don't think that's what he's arguing. I think he's arguing that it is iniquitous that a retired teacher, say, who isn't working, is better off than a working teacher - because the retired teacher has a generous teacher's pension plus a state pension, plus could afford to buy a house on a single salary. A working teacher might be getting a higher basic income (though that is by no means a given) but faces far higher housing costs and also a more parlous retirement.
    I accept that accounting for all this is difficult.
    Well you know my feelings. I think inequality (including this aspect of it) is our number one problem.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,764
    Leon said:

    The Farage claims of all the teachers are indoctorinating our kids and are activists again seems very MAGA and "Online" where the likes of "Libs of TikTok" social media accounts bang on constantly about it.

    I don't have kids, but I don't get that the "reds under the beds" scare is something that is part of the UK political discussion around education.

    Yes, it is. And I have kids
    You have adult kids. And you did not have much to do with your kids when they were at school.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,863
    edited October 9

    The Farage claims of all the teachers are indoctorinating our kids and are activists again seems very MAGA and "Online" where the likes of "Libs of TikTok" social media accounts bang on constantly about it.

    I don't have kids, but I don't get that the "reds under the beds" scare is something that is part of the UK political discussion around education. Rather behaviour, slipping standards, kids effected by COVID lockdown still not ready to learn are the things that my friends who do have kids bang on about.

    It was the sort of thing the Tories used to go on about in the 1970s IIRC. Always been there bobbing around in the stream of discourse, albeiot sometimes mostly submerged.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,923
    Leon said:

    The Farage claims of all the teachers are indoctorinating our kids and are activists again seems very MAGA and "Online" where the likes of "Libs of TikTok" social media accounts bang on constantly about it.

    I don't have kids, but I don't get that the "reds under the beds" scare is something that is part of the UK political discussion around education.

    Yes, it is. And I have kids
    Mandy Rice Davies is waving at you...
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,287
    rcs1000 said:

    Would it be practical to get some sort of political consensus regarding the percentage of the population that should receive the state pension? I understand that the current figure is probably just under 20%. Suppose everyone agreed that the number should not exceed 20%, and if that looked like it was likely to happen then the pensionable age would be increased accordingly.

    For a variety of reasons (not least the NHS and personal understanding of health initiatives) we live in an ageing society. When Lloyd George introduced the Old Age Penion in 1909, it was payable to people aged over 75. Over the years we reduced it to 60 for some people, and have now raised it to 66 for everyone, but the expectation was that it would be paid to a few people, in exceptional circumstances, not to a fifth of the population.

    An awkward calculation that ignores the reality of ageing. We can't have 70-year-olds digging coal just because there are lots of 80-year-olds. And if we fill offices with the elderly, how will the young get jobs?
    Why not?
    Because they are physically not up to it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,990
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is quite the move by China.
    A wakeup call for the west to sort out its manufacturing industries.

    CHINA JUST WEAPONIZED THE ENTIRE RARE EARTH SUPPLY CHAIN

    get used to reading chinese MOFCOM bulletins because they're writing american industrial policy now.

    announced today: any product containing >0.1% chinese rare earth materials needs beijing's approval before re-export to third countries.

    doesn't matter if you manufactured it in taiwan, vietnam, or texas.

    chinese dysprosium in your magnet? chinese gallium in your chip? beijing gets veto power over the sale.

    this is the nuclear option. US spent 3 years trying to deny china access to advanced chipmaking tools. china just responded with chokehold on literally every semiconductor fab, AI data center, defense contractor, and EV manufacturer on earth.

    everything runs on chinese rare earths. building alternative supply chains takes 5-10 years minimum.

    we don't have 5-10 years. effective december 1st.

    the AI boom just hit a hard ceiling and we're still pretending we can offshore our way to prosperity.

    time to reindustrialize like our lives depend on it. because they do.

    https://x.com/aphysicist/status/1976272490172231701

    As with the US chip restrictions, enforcement will be somewhat leaky, but they've shown the ability to interrupt supplies of rare earths for extended period of time, so it can;t be brushed aside.

    And duplicating anything like their refining and processing capacity will be a project that takes quite a number of years.
    This is a critical supply chain for just about everything important, so we need to get on with it.

    In one respect, this is just a hardball negotiating tactic, but at the same time, it is a deadly serious threat to western manufacturing and defence industries.

    Fortunately, there's nothing particularly rare about rare eaths.

    When one flexes ones muscles like this, one creates massive incentives for mining companies to invest in new production. And then -suddenly- China won't be the only supplier. And you have also made yourself an unreliable partner, which impacts everything going forward.
    Mining really isn't what this is about.
    China processes over 90% of rare earth production, which is a lot more than their share of world mining.
    It will take years to duplicate that capability - and it's not just having the facilities; their processing technology is far in advance of elsewhere, as they've had a virtual monopoly on the market for a decade.

    You can make exactly the same remarks about US chip restrictions. Over time, it's quite likely China will duplicate western technology there (and their government is spending tens of billions to encourage that), but in the meantime, they're very effective.
    It may take years, but it will still happen.

    So, yes, China has inserted another bit of sand into an already slow world economy (that has been hammered by Ukraine and Trump's tariffs).

    And it will negatively impact China most of all. But we all lose. Just like with the tariffs.
    It's the near term threat that bothers me.
    An embargo on rare earth shipments would be more than a bit of sand in the world economic machine.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 12,068
    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Three quarters of pensioners own their own home.

    The same can not be said about working people.

    Working people's wages should go to themselves first, before it goes to anyone else.

    Working people should not be worse off than those who are not working.

    How is somebody in a low wage job ever supposed to be better off than somebody retired from a high wage one?
    Correct me if I'm wrong Bart, but I don't think that's what he's arguing. I think he's arguing that it is iniquitous that a retired teacher, say, who isn't working, is better off than a working teacher - because the retired teacher has a generous teacher's pension plus a state pension, plus could afford to buy a house on a single salary. A working teacher might be getting a higher basic income (though that is by no means a given) but faces far higher housing costs and also a more parlous retirement.
    I accept that accounting for all this is difficult.
    Well you know my feelings. I think inequality (including this aspect of it) is our number one problem.
    We're all equal here K

    In what way might you or others feel unequal to me? Here I am with my great estates and there you are with your tin of baked beans monument. But we all breathe the same air, and there's no charge*.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,764
    carnforth said:

    Leon said:

    Even by Guardian standards this is a quite outrageously misleading headline


    “‘We don’t want to be a toy town’: has Brexit sunk this historic UK fishing fleet?”

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/oct/09/hastings-brexit-sunk-historic-uk-fishing-fleet

    If you read the text, what they mean by “Brexit” is actually Keir Starmer’s pathetic, treacherous fishing deal when he gave everything to the French for 12 years, in return for… nothing

    Before SKS:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c066r811z7ro

    Perhaps, just perhaps, we need to understand that fishermen, like farmers, always complain.

    Therefore most of their complaints should be ignored... :)
    They don't always complain: they complain when the harvest is bad or prices are low; they very cleverly shut up when the harvest is good or prices are high.
    Nah, there's always something to complain about. If the harvest is good and prices are high, it's the cost of fertiliser. If they've had a good day selling livestock at the market, it's that Joe down at another farm got a better deal on some ewes.

    I have family in farming, and it's a bit of a running joke.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,287
    Carnyx said:

    The Farage claims of all the teachers are indoctorinating our kids and are activists again seems very MAGA and "Online" where the likes of "Libs of TikTok" social media accounts bang on constantly about it.

    I don't have kids, but I don't get that the "reds under the beds" scare is something that is part of the UK political discussion around education. Rather behaviour, slipping standards, kids effected by COVID lockdown still not ready to learn are the things that my friends who do have kids bang on about.

    It was the sort of thing the Tories used to go on about in the 1970s IIRC. Always been there bobbing around in the stream of discourse, albeiot sometimes mostly submerged.
    Gove (or Cummings/Gove) and the blob ring any bells?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,926

    Leon said:

    The Farage claims of all the teachers are indoctorinating our kids and are activists again seems very MAGA and "Online" where the likes of "Libs of TikTok" social media accounts bang on constantly about it.

    I don't have kids, but I don't get that the "reds under the beds" scare is something that is part of the UK political discussion around education.

    Yes, it is. And I have kids
    You have adult kids. And you did not have much to do with your kids when they were at school.
    lol

    I picked up my elder daughter from primary school about 150 days a year for five years
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,262

    The Farage claims of all the teachers are indoctorinating our kids and are activists again seems very MAGA and "Online" where the likes of "Libs of TikTok" social media accounts bang on constantly about it.

    I don't have kids, but I don't get that the "reds under the beds" scare is something that is part of the UK political discussion around education.

    I have quite a bit of interaction with education - and at the secondary level at least this feels very plausible. It's not all teachers, and not all schools, but, well, if you're a white British straight male, British schools aren't a place to make you feel good about yourself.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,504

    A Gogglebox star has been appearing on the Channel 4 show while being signed off from his NHS day job with stress.

    Sid Siddiqui, 80, has continued to take part in the fly-on-the-wall series while absent from his taxpayer-funded role as a health service environmental manager, which, it is understood, he worked at three days a week.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15176721/Gogglebox-star-80-hit-Channel-4-signed-stress-62k-year-NHS-job.html

    Now this is a very weird story not for the headline reason. First all the promo online says he was retired, which you would expect from somebody who is 80 YEARS OLD. Something doesn't add up here.

    Retired, working 3 days a week as a contractor? With usual contractor rates probably making more money than 5 days a week.

    Not uncommon, in some jobs, as a soft retirement - they stay on as contractor to keep knowledge etc going, while tapering off working.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,287

    carnforth said:

    Leon said:

    Even by Guardian standards this is a quite outrageously misleading headline


    “‘We don’t want to be a toy town’: has Brexit sunk this historic UK fishing fleet?”

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/oct/09/hastings-brexit-sunk-historic-uk-fishing-fleet

    If you read the text, what they mean by “Brexit” is actually Keir Starmer’s pathetic, treacherous fishing deal when he gave everything to the French for 12 years, in return for… nothing

    Before SKS:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c066r811z7ro

    Perhaps, just perhaps, we need to understand that fishermen, like farmers, always complain.

    Therefore most of their complaints should be ignored... :)
    They don't always complain: they complain when the harvest is bad or prices are low; they very cleverly shut up when the harvest is good or prices are high.
    Nah, there's always something to complain about. If the harvest is good and prices are high, it's the cost of fertiliser. If they've had a good day selling livestock at the market, it's that Joe down at another farm got a better deal on some ewes.

    I have family in farming, and it's a bit of a running joke.
    Ukraine blowing up Russian dual-use fertiliser and explosives factories will not help with that.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,990

    Leon said:

    The Farage claims of all the teachers are indoctorinating our kids and are activists again seems very MAGA and "Online" where the likes of "Libs of TikTok" social media accounts bang on constantly about it.

    I don't have kids, but I don't get that the "reds under the beds" scare is something that is part of the UK political discussion around education.

    Yes, it is. And I have kids
    Mandy Rice Davies is waving at you...
    No she isn't.
    She had only one child.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,863

    Carnyx said:

    The Farage claims of all the teachers are indoctorinating our kids and are activists again seems very MAGA and "Online" where the likes of "Libs of TikTok" social media accounts bang on constantly about it.

    I don't have kids, but I don't get that the "reds under the beds" scare is something that is part of the UK political discussion around education. Rather behaviour, slipping standards, kids effected by COVID lockdown still not ready to learn are the things that my friends who do have kids bang on about.

    It was the sort of thing the Tories used to go on about in the 1970s IIRC. Always been there bobbing around in the stream of discourse, albeiot sometimes mostly submerged.
    Gove (or Cummings/Gove) and the blob ring any bells?
    Sure. But wasn't the blob cross-party?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,287

    The Farage claims of all the teachers are indoctorinating our kids and are activists again seems very US and "Online" where the likes of "Libs of TikTok" social media accounts bang on constantly about it.

    A teacher writes:

    Have these people actually met any real children?

    If teachers could indoctrinate kids, there are many things higher up my list than lefty wokeism.

    Starting with bringing a calculator to physics lessons.
    They would if your idiot Head Teacher had not banned smartphones from the classroom.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,244
    edited October 9

    Carnyx said:

    The Farage claims of all the teachers are indoctorinating our kids and are activists again seems very MAGA and "Online" where the likes of "Libs of TikTok" social media accounts bang on constantly about it.

    I don't have kids, but I don't get that the "reds under the beds" scare is something that is part of the UK political discussion around education. Rather behaviour, slipping standards, kids effected by COVID lockdown still not ready to learn are the things that my friends who do have kids bang on about.

    It was the sort of thing the Tories used to go on about in the 1970s IIRC. Always been there bobbing around in the stream of discourse, albeiot sometimes mostly submerged.
    Gove (or Cummings/Gove) and the blob ring any bells?
    That's not quite the same claim. Their criticism was the "blob" stopped innovation and reform and teacher didn't want to change the way they did things. Farage is claiming something different, something very US centric about the Marxists and the trans teachers are indoctrinating the kids. That is straight Libs of TikTok type stuff.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,634
    edited October 9

    The Farage claims of all the teachers are indoctorinating our kids and are activists again seems very MAGA and "Online" where the likes of "Libs of TikTok" social media accounts bang on constantly about it.

    I don't have kids, but I don't get that the "reds under the beds" scare is something that is part of the UK political discussion around education. Rather behaviour, slipping standards, kids effected by COVID lockdown still not ready to learn are the things that my friends who do have kids bang on about.

    It shouldn't be - because it's nonsense - but Farage would like it to be. And yes, you're right that it's him again looking and learning from the shitshow in America. I really do hope we don't succumb.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,200

    A Gogglebox star has been appearing on the Channel 4 show while being signed off from his NHS day job with stress.

    Sid Siddiqui, 80, has continued to take part in the fly-on-the-wall series while absent from his taxpayer-funded role as a health service environmental manager, which, it is understood, he worked at three days a week.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15176721/Gogglebox-star-80-hit-Channel-4-signed-stress-62k-year-NHS-job.html

    Now this is a very weird story not for the headline reason. First all the promo online says he was retired, which you would expect from somebody who is 80 YEARS OLD. Something doesn't add up here.

    Hopefully not related to Tulip? :lol:
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,262

    These findings fill me with incredulity.

    The sense of entitlement is unbelievable.

    Same, I had to check with YouGov that there were no typos in the posts.

    I just cannot wrap my ahead around it, my parents think their main role in life is to spend money on their grandkids, and also leave me and them a massive inheritance.
    I'm not sure it's entitlement - just a massive failure to recognise how anomalously lucky their generation is.
    My mother in law has a slightly exasperating tendency to talk to us about what we'll do when we retire, blithely expecting that we'll be able to have the same two-cruises-a-year lifestyle she has. At present my plan A is work until my 70s then off to Dignitas.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,890
    edited October 9

    A Gogglebox star has been appearing on the Channel 4 show while being signed off from his NHS day job with stress.

    Sid Siddiqui, 80, has continued to take part in the fly-on-the-wall series while absent from his taxpayer-funded role as a health service environmental manager, which, it is understood, he worked at three days a week.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15176721/Gogglebox-star-80-hit-Channel-4-signed-stress-62k-year-NHS-job.html

    Now this is a very weird story not for the headline reason. First all the promo online says he was retired, which you would expect from somebody who is 80 YEARS OLD. Something doesn't add up here.

    Retired, working 3 days a week as a contractor? With usual contractor rates probably making more money than 5 days a week.

    Not uncommon, in some jobs, as a soft retirement - they stay on as contractor to keep knowledge etc going, while tapering off working.
    Although if he's a contractor, he won't be being paid if off for stress, so there's not much of a story here, surely.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 68,415

    Aaron Rupar
    @atrupar

    Kristi Noem: "With your authority, we're purchasing more buildings in Chicago to operate out of. We're gonna not back off -- in fact, we're doubling down. We're gonna be in more parts of Chicago in response to the people there. I was there a few days ago and looked at some facilities we can deploy more law enforcement out of."

    https://x.com/atrupar/status/1976326139376177428

    "With your authority" i.e. if you give the nod we can ignore the law and the constitution.

  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 12,068

    Leon said:

    The Farage claims of all the teachers are indoctorinating our kids and are activists again seems very MAGA and "Online" where the likes of "Libs of TikTok" social media accounts bang on constantly about it.

    I don't have kids, but I don't get that the "reds under the beds" scare is something that is part of the UK political discussion around education.

    Yes, it is. And I have kids
    Mandy Rice Davies is waving at you...
    Talking of waving.

    I was walking today in Regents Park. A lovely day. As I approached the southern side there was a whole gaggle of children, chaperoned by a disarray of teachers. They were obviously something like an Islamic school trip - there were (hat tip to Jenrick) simply no white faces. A fair few headscarfed girls. Anyway, generally good to see children out and about, but I was a trifle disappointed that it seemed quite a monocultural expedition. And then one of the little girls just spontaneously smiled and waved at me.

    Despite my sometimes gloom, I think we're in good shape.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,990
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is quite the move by China.
    A wakeup call for the west to sort out its manufacturing industries.

    CHINA JUST WEAPONIZED THE ENTIRE RARE EARTH SUPPLY CHAIN

    get used to reading chinese MOFCOM bulletins because they're writing american industrial policy now.

    announced today: any product containing >0.1% chinese rare earth materials needs beijing's approval before re-export to third countries.

    doesn't matter if you manufactured it in taiwan, vietnam, or texas.

    chinese dysprosium in your magnet? chinese gallium in your chip? beijing gets veto power over the sale.

    this is the nuclear option. US spent 3 years trying to deny china access to advanced chipmaking tools. china just responded with chokehold on literally every semiconductor fab, AI data center, defense contractor, and EV manufacturer on earth.

    everything runs on chinese rare earths. building alternative supply chains takes 5-10 years minimum.

    we don't have 5-10 years. effective december 1st.

    the AI boom just hit a hard ceiling and we're still pretending we can offshore our way to prosperity.

    time to reindustrialize like our lives depend on it. because they do.

    https://x.com/aphysicist/status/1976272490172231701

    As with the US chip restrictions, enforcement will be somewhat leaky, but they've shown the ability to interrupt supplies of rare earths for extended period of time, so it can;t be brushed aside.

    And duplicating anything like their refining and processing capacity will be a project that takes quite a number of years.
    This is a critical supply chain for just about everything important, so we need to get on with it.

    In one respect, this is just a hardball negotiating tactic, but at the same time, it is a deadly serious threat to western manufacturing and defence industries.

    Fortunately, there's nothing particularly rare about rare eaths.

    When one flexes ones muscles like this, one creates massive incentives for mining companies to invest in new production. And then -suddenly- China won't be the only supplier. And you have also made yourself an unreliable partner, which impacts everything going forward.
    Mining really isn't what this is about.
    China processes over 90% of rare earth production, which is a lot more than their share of world mining.
    It will take years to duplicate that capability - and it's not just having the facilities; their processing technology is far in advance of elsewhere, as they've had a virtual monopoly on the market for a decade.

    You can make exactly the same remarks about US chip restrictions. Over time, it's quite likely China will duplicate western technology there (and their government is spending tens of billions to encourage that), but in the meantime, they're very effective.
    It may take years, but it will still happen.

    So, yes, China has inserted another bit of sand into an already slow world economy (that has been hammered by Ukraine and Trump's tariffs).

    And it will negatively impact China most of all. But we all lose. Just like with the tariffs.
    It's the near term threat that bothers me.
    An embargo on rare earth shipments would be more than a bit of sand in the world economic machine.
    This really isn't getting enough attention. China has truly gone all in on export controls today, in a major way.

    Not only did they announce the unprecedented rare earths restrictions that I posted about earlier 👇 (targeted, among others, at the advanced semiconductors sector) but they issued 4 consecutive announcements in total with other export controls on:

    - The machines and expertise to process rare earths - not just the rare earths themselves, but all the specialized equipment and technical know-how to turn rare earth into usable materials (obviously making it all the harder to try to move rare earth processing away from China)
    - High-performance batteries - specifically those above 300 Wh/kg needed for long-range EVs and advanced drones. And, again, export controls on all the factory equipment to make them too.
    - The materials inside batteries - both graphite anodes and cathode materials (the two electrodes that are essential for batteries to function at all). Export controls also cover the specialized equipment to manufacture all of these components.
    - Industrial diamonds and cutting tools - the ultra-hard materials that are used ubiquitously in precision manufacturing, for instance to cut silicon wafers for computer chips

    This is absolutely unprecedented. With this China effectively gets veto power over three critical supply chains simultaneously: advanced semiconductors (via rare earths and related equipment), battery-powered vehicles and drones, and precision manufacturing across industries (via superhard materials).

    https://x.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1976275085158670813

    Just as with Biden and Trump's advanced chip export controls this will be leaky, and will incentivise those it's aimed at to develop their own manufacturing/production capacity.
    But just as with those controls, it could have broad and very significant effects over the next few years.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,244
    edited October 9
    rcs1000 said:

    A Gogglebox star has been appearing on the Channel 4 show while being signed off from his NHS day job with stress.

    Sid Siddiqui, 80, has continued to take part in the fly-on-the-wall series while absent from his taxpayer-funded role as a health service environmental manager, which, it is understood, he worked at three days a week.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15176721/Gogglebox-star-80-hit-Channel-4-signed-stress-62k-year-NHS-job.html

    Now this is a very weird story not for the headline reason. First all the promo online says he was retired, which you would expect from somebody who is 80 YEARS OLD. Something doesn't add up here.

    Retired, working 3 days a week as a contractor? With usual contractor rates probably making more money than 5 days a week.

    Not uncommon, in some jobs, as a soft retirement - they stay on as contractor to keep knowledge etc going, while tapering off working.
    Although if he's a contractor, he won't be being paid if off for stress, so there's not much of a story here, surely.
    Not a contractor according to report, the quote from the NHS trust and the social media account of the same NHS trust was an employee.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,123
    FPT

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    I’m in a San Francisco hotel that has robot room service. But the robots are the slightly boring kind, like dumb 3CPOs, or glorified Roombas

    Much more interesting is this. Just launched an hour ago

    https://x.com/figure_robot/status/1976272678618308864?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    I remember once @Benpointer saying “wake me up when a robot can stack my dishwasher”

    Well, here it is, Ben. About two years after you asked for it. These will soon start appearing in posh hotels, then exponentially spread

    Obviously something dodgy, your linky. 'Age restricted adult content'
    Really?

    Here in the EU I can see the video of a humanoid robot doing household tasks and not at all thinking of murdering its human masters.

    I couldn't sleep with one of these in the house. I've read Service Model.
    I've seen "Murderbot". This has left me conflicted
  • DoctorGDoctorG Posts: 215
    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    Second time around.

    How do you know that Manc isn't the airport for Prestwick?

    But, seriously, a most alarming report. I was very surprised anyone would want to land at Edinburgh (though the wind was possibly more or less along the runway, IIRC).
    What surprises me is storm Amy was worst in Scotland. So maybe a southern diversion should have been on the table very early on, even not bothering with an attempt at Prestwick
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,244
    edited October 9
    I am starting to wonder if Farage keeps going down the MAGA rabbit hole if that is how he blows up Reforms poll numbers, rather than general talk of anti-immigration, lack of full suite of properly costed policies or talented PPCs and a record of piss poor councillors.

    Loads of the MAGA talking points just don't work in the UK.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,764
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Farage claims of all the teachers are indoctorinating our kids and are activists again seems very MAGA and "Online" where the likes of "Libs of TikTok" social media accounts bang on constantly about it.

    I don't have kids, but I don't get that the "reds under the beds" scare is something that is part of the UK political discussion around education.

    Yes, it is. And I have kids
    You have adult kids. And you did not have much to do with your kids when they were at school.
    lol

    I picked up my elder daughter from primary school about 150 days a year for five years
    And your other daughter? :)

    Besides, if that is true, AIUI your daughter is now at uni, which means those days are at least ten years ago. You've got f-all idea what is being taught at school, but it's zero surprise you're shitting out the MAGA talking points.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,287

    Carnyx said:

    The Farage claims of all the teachers are indoctorinating our kids and are activists again seems very MAGA and "Online" where the likes of "Libs of TikTok" social media accounts bang on constantly about it.

    I don't have kids, but I don't get that the "reds under the beds" scare is something that is part of the UK political discussion around education. Rather behaviour, slipping standards, kids effected by COVID lockdown still not ready to learn are the things that my friends who do have kids bang on about.

    It was the sort of thing the Tories used to go on about in the 1970s IIRC. Always been there bobbing around in the stream of discourse, albeiot sometimes mostly submerged.
    Gove (or Cummings/Gove) and the blob ring any bells?
    That's not quite the same claim. Their criticism was the "blob" stopped innovation and reform and teacher didn't want to change the way they did things. Farage is claiming something different, something very US centric about the Marxists and the trans teachers are indoctrinating the kids. That is straight Libs of TikTok type stuff.
    Michael Gove did try to rewrite the history syllabus out of those concerns.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,724

    These findings fill me with incredulity.

    The sense of entitlement is unbelievable.

    Suspect that it's extremely believable. We all want more for less, and are happy to screw over the future to get what we want. Even me, and I'm lovely.

    The problem with the generation born between about 1945 and 1965 is not particularly that they are more fallen than the rest of us, it's that they are more numerous. So indulging them has been a viable business and political strategy throughout their lives.

    With consequences that can only be described as "Boomers, if you seek your memorial, look around." It sounds better in Latin, I'm sure, but I did go to a comprehensive.
    Boomers, si monumentum vestrum quaeritis, circumspicite.

    Says Google. But which party is going to start the conversation? Perhaps one way forward would be to insist that Care Home fees come out of the resident's capital either directly or as a future (interest bearing) charge. The boomers would have to make a decision about whether passing on wealth before a care home is needed is the best strategy or to hold the wealth and at lease have a choice about care.

    Do you trust your children?
Sign In or Register to comment.