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Soon we could see the Tories fifth in the polling – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,710
edited September 28 in General
Soon we could see the Tories fifth in the polling – politicalbetting.com

For all those off to Liverpool. Lowest #Labour vote share since June 2009 . Worst ever rating for a sitting PM since we started on this measure in 1977…. Tories can’t mock – they have worst rating ever measured (since 1976) ….#strangetimes https://t.co/5rE3R94jrt pic.twitter.com/qsgW3T18Ie

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Comments

  • As high as that?
  • As high as that?

    #EternalOptimist
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,404
    There is a tipping point below which you are not a credible future government.
    The Tories are approaching it from above. v
    The LDs are approaching it from below. ^
  • Even if I am the last one standing I remain a conservative voter

    And if anyone wants to defeat Farage then the conservative party is an important element in that

    As far as Badenoch is concerned I await her conferences speech with interest
  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,700
    Is there some significant psychological barrier crossed when the Tories come fifth? Surely fourth would be bad enough

    Anyway I love these polls. A plague on both their houses
  • Leon said:

    Is there some significant psychological barrier crossed when the Tories come fifth? Surely fourth would be bad enough

    Anyway I love these polls. A plague on both their houses

    Yes, right now some Tories have been able to argue that being third in the polls is due to Starmer being rubbish and boosting Reform, but ending up consistently fourth/fifth behind the Greens/Lib Dems will be a barrier crossed.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,792

    Even if I am the last one standing I remain a conservative voter

    And if anyone wants to defeat Farage then the conservative party is an important element in that

    As far as Badenoch is concerned I await her conferences speech with interest

    I'm beginning to fear that (should I live long enough) I shall have to vote Conservative at the next election in the probably vain hope of defeating Reform.
    Although it could, with luck, be a three way fight; Conservative/Labour/Reform.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,037
    edited September 28

    Even if I am the last one standing I remain a conservative voter

    And if anyone wants to defeat Farage then the conservative party is an important element in that

    As far as Badenoch is concerned I await her conferences speech with interest

    Unfortunately (and I don't say this with any joy at all) the Conservatives aren't an important element in fighting Farage. About half are impotent bystanders, the other half actively want to get into bed with Nigel.

    It's not over until the fat lady sings, but there is a deep alto tune coming from somewhere nearby. And those of us who think of ourselves as on the moderate right are going to have to decide which of those words matters more to us.

    As for me, I think I know the answer, but it will make my ancestors spin in their graves...
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,404

    Leon said:

    Is there some significant psychological barrier crossed when the Tories come fifth? Surely fourth would be bad enough

    Anyway I love these polls. A plague on both their houses

    Yes, right now some Tories have been able to argue that being third in the polls is due to Starmer being rubbish and boosting Reform, but ending up consistently fourth/fifth behind the Greens/Lib Dems will be a barrier crossed.
    A "tipping point" is a critical threshold where a small change leads to a large, often abrupt and self-perpetuating, transformation in a system, such as the climate or voting behaviour.
  • Gotta say I’m laughing like Muttley.

    Should I prepare for government?
  • Leon said:

    Is there some significant psychological barrier crossed when the Tories come fifth? Surely fourth would be bad enough

    Anyway I love these polls. A plague on both their houses

    Yes, right now some Tories have been able to argue that being third in the polls is due to Starmer being rubbish and boosting Reform, but ending up consistently fourth/fifth behind the Greens/Lib Dems will be a barrier crossed.
    And people don't like to be seen backing a loser.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,700
    edited September 28

    Leon said:

    Is there some significant psychological barrier crossed when the Tories come fifth? Surely fourth would be bad enough

    Anyway I love these polls. A plague on both their houses

    Yes, right now some Tories have been able to argue that being third in the polls is due to Starmer being rubbish and boosting Reform, but ending up consistently fourth/fifth behind the Greens/Lib Dems will be a barrier crossed.
    I agree, I was just querying that distinction twixt 4th and
    5th

    This feels like a death spiral now, for the Tories. As you say there’s a tipping point when they look terminally irrelevant and any vote for them is wasted. They are horribly close to that point, and it’s not obvious how they reverse the slide. Dumping poor Kemi is necessary - but not sufficient

    Labour have different problems. Unlikely to go extinct but facing a defeat so bad they are out of power for 15 years
  • Even if I am the last one standing I remain a conservative voter

    And if anyone wants to defeat Farage then the conservative party is an important element in that

    As far as Badenoch is concerned I await her conferences speech with interest

    Unfortunately (and I don't say this with any joy at all) the Conservatives aren't an important element in fighting Farage. About half are impotent bystanders, the other half actively want to get into bed with Nigel.

    It's not over until the fat lady sings, but there is a deep alto tune coming from somewhere nearby. And those of us who think of ourselves as on the moderate right are going to have to decide which of those words matters more to us.

    As for me, I think I know the answer, but it will make my ancestors spin in their graves...
    They have no clear offering at the moment.
  • Leon said:

    Is there some significant psychological barrier crossed when the Tories come fifth? Surely fourth would be bad enough

    Anyway I love these polls. A plague on both their houses

    Yes, right now some Tories have been able to argue that being third in the polls is due to Starmer being rubbish and boosting Reform, but ending up consistently fourth/fifth behind the Greens/Lib Dems will be a barrier crossed.
    And people don't like to be seen backing a loser.
    Yup, we'll end up with a donors' strike, that'll end Kemi's leadership.

    I am almost regretting vote for her.

    A fie on the parliamentary Tory Party for giving me a choice between Badenoch and Jenrick.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 67,641
    edited September 28
    John Curtice on Kuenssberg has said a new government has never lost support as fast as this one

    Of interest labour has lost 12% to Reform, 11% to Lib Dems and 10% to Greens

    He said the 2024 labour support has fractured in all directions

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,299

    Even if I am the last one standing I remain a conservative voter

    And if anyone wants to defeat Farage then the conservative party is an important element in that

    As far as Badenoch is concerned I await her conferences speech with interest

    Unfortunately (and I don't say this with any joy at all) the Conservatives aren't an important element in fighting Farage. About half are impotent bystanders, the other half actively want to get into bed with Nigel.

    It's not over until the fat lady sings, but there is a deep alto tune coming from somewhere nearby. And those of us who think of ourselves as on the moderate right are going to have to decide which of those words matters more to us.

    As for me, I think I know the answer, but it will make my ancestors spin in their graves...
    They have no clear offering at the moment.
    Both major parties are offering bankrupt managerialism. All the buzzwords, no delivery.

    The current Labour leadership has bought into the AI bullshit version of this.

    The sad, sad thing, is that genuine management - making choices, delivering results and keeping control of costs while maintaining a happy ship - is a deep skill that is so very rare. And vital.
  • John Curtice on Kuenssberg has said a new government has never lost support as fast as this one

    Of interest labour has lost 12% to Reform, 11% to Lib Dems and 10% to Greens

    He said the 2024 labour support has fractured in all directions

    Except as he pointed out elsewhere it is fracturing in all directions except to the Tory party.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,404

    John Curtice on Kuenssberg has said a new government has never lost support as fast as this one

    Of interest labour has lost 12% to Reform, 11% to Lib Dems and 10% to Greens

    He said the 2024 labour support has fractured in all directions

    In contrast, Tories have lost 32% to Reform and very little to other parties.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,700
    edited September 28

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Is there some significant psychological barrier crossed when the Tories come fifth? Surely fourth would be bad enough

    Anyway I love these polls. A plague on both their houses

    Yes, right now some Tories have been able to argue that being third in the polls is due to Starmer being rubbish and boosting Reform, but ending up consistently fourth/fifth behind the Greens/Lib Dems will be a barrier crossed.
    I agree, I was just querying that distinction twixt 4th and
    5th

    This feels like a death spiral now, for the Tories. As you say there’s a tipping point when they look terminally irrelevant and any vote for them is wasted. They are horribly close to that point, and it’s not obvious how they reverse the slide. Dumping poor Kemi is necessary - but not sufficient

    Labour have different problems. Unlikely to go extinct but facing a defeat so bad they are out of power for 15 years
    Perhaps.

    I am writing a piece which should go up later on this week which points out based on the MRPs/polls Reform are on course to win the election with a lower vote share/votes than Labour in 2024 (The YouGov MRP had them on 27%) and we saw how unpopular Labour became.

    I reckon within a year of the next election Reform could be in the single digits and we end up with a very left wing party leading the polls such as the Greens.
    That’s the consensus prediction at Knapper’s Gazette, interestingly

    Reform win, fuck it all up, and the NEXT government is far left

    It is quite possible, especially as by then we may need UBI

    We are in a hi-tech rehash of the 1930s
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,037
    edited September 28

    Leon said:

    Is there some significant psychological barrier crossed when the Tories come fifth? Surely fourth would be bad enough

    Anyway I love these polls. A plague on both their houses

    Yes, right now some Tories have been able to argue that being third in the polls is due to Starmer being rubbish and boosting Reform, but ending up consistently fourth/fifth behind the Greens/Lib Dems will be a barrier crossed.
    And people don't like to be seen backing a loser.
    Yup, we'll end up with a donors' strike, that'll end Kemi's leadership.

    I am almost regretting vote for her.

    A fie on the parliamentary Tory Party for giving me a choice between Badenoch and Jenrick.
    The rationale was the same as the one in Yes, Minister;

    “If Eric Kemi gets it we’ll have a party split in three months. If it’s DuncanRobert, it’ll take three weeks.

    Oh for a political leader of the calibre of James Hacker...
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Is there some significant psychological barrier crossed when the Tories come fifth? Surely fourth would be bad enough

    Anyway I love these polls. A plague on both their houses

    Yes, right now some Tories have been able to argue that being third in the polls is due to Starmer being rubbish and boosting Reform, but ending up consistently fourth/fifth behind the Greens/Lib Dems will be a barrier crossed.
    And people don't like to be seen backing a loser.
    Yup, we'll end up with a donors' strike, that'll end Kemi's leadership.

    I am almost regretting vote for her.

    A fie on the parliamentary Tory Party for giving me a choice between Badenoch and Jenrick.
    Just disband the party. It’s over. Nothing is forever. Soft dads like you can join the LDs - and improve their offering - and harder types can join Reform, giving them gravitas

    Win win

    The next election should ideally be LDs versus Reform. That would be a good clear choice for the people. The two big parties need to go extinct now
    I could never join a party that supports the WASPI women.

    The fact that Wera Hobhouse hasn't been expelled for pushing 5G conspiracy theories is another black mark.
  • Those people driving new cars on the never never, knowing they ain’t as rich as all those people driving shiny cars also living on their estate.

    I suspect they are all living lives of quiet desperation.

    .
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Is there some significant psychological barrier crossed when the Tories come fifth? Surely fourth would be bad enough

    Anyway I love these polls. A plague on both their houses

    Yes, right now some Tories have been able to argue that being third in the polls is due to Starmer being rubbish and boosting Reform, but ending up consistently fourth/fifth behind the Greens/Lib Dems will be a barrier crossed.
    I agree, I was just querying that distinction twixt 4th and
    5th

    This feels like a death spiral now, for the Tories. As you say there’s a tipping point when they look terminally irrelevant and any vote for them is wasted. They are horribly close to that point, and it’s not obvious how they reverse the slide. Dumping poor Kemi is necessary - but not sufficient

    Labour have different problems. Unlikely to go extinct but facing a defeat so bad they are out of power for 15 years
    For the Conservatives, chasing Reform to the right ships votes to the LibDems, but moving to the centre ships votes to the right. The underlying problem is shorn of their illusion of inevitability, the party cannot attract small-c Conservative voters who will hold their noses to keep Labour out. And Labour's problem is much the same, mutatis mutandis. Neither leader can answer the question, what is your party for? What is the point of it?

    Kemi might be the Tories' best bet at the moment, if the alternative threatens to swing the party too far in one direction.
  • John Curtice on Kuenssberg has said a new government has never lost support as fast as this one

    Of interest labour has lost 12% to Reform, 11% to Lib Dems and 10% to Greens

    He said the 2024 labour support has fractured in all directions

    Except as he pointed out elsewhere it is fracturing in all directions except to the Tory party.
    It is not surprising that labour to conservative is minimal and it may well be the conservatives are unlikely to recover but no matter I will not support Reform of Labour under any circumstances
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 34,663
    Maybe if the media called out genuine Farage bullshit the Tories would be a bit higher up the charts.

    Absolutely nothing on the BBC about his tacit approval of Trump's paracetamol-autism link, eating swans, and no calling out Trump's Sharia law in London claim. No analysis of Farage and the NHS. Couching his casual racism as normal, no wonder he's riding high.

    And Nathan Gill? Zip, nada, nothing ( except on here). Imagine if a Tory or Labour MEP had pleaded guilty to shilling for Putin.

    Call Reform and Farage out. Call out Dubai's own Richard Tice. Tell it like it is and the Tories claw back some support. Instead they probably replace Kemi with Jenrick who is Farage heavy and has a back story of a very dodgy donation from a Pornographer and donor. Call him out too. If he's your man, you deserve the oblivion you probably won't then get.

    Come on Tories, come on Kemi. Reform is your foe, fight them on the beaches of Clacton, Frinton and Great Yarmouth. They are on your manor.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,583

    Even if I am the last one standing I remain a conservative voter

    And if anyone wants to defeat Farage then the conservative party is an important element in that

    As far as Badenoch is concerned I await her conferences speech with interest

    Unfortunately (and I don't say this with any joy at all) the Conservatives aren't an important element in fighting Farage. About half are impotent bystanders, the other half actively want to get into bed with Nigel.

    It's not over until the fat lady sings, but there is a deep alto tune coming from somewhere nearby. And those of us who think of ourselves as on the moderate right are going to have to decide which of those words matters more to us.

    As for me, I think I know the answer, but it will make my ancestors spin in their graves...
    The bipolar nature of the Tory party is going to become critical WRT tactical voting. Cumbria is a nice example. Apart from Tim Farron's fiefdom all seats are currently Labour, all in 2019 were Tory, (in 2017 three were Tory, two Labour + Tim Farron) all are projected to become Reform next time. So they are a nice miniature of much of England.

    Farron's seat will stay LD, who have nearly zero chance in the others. Who do you vote for to vote against Reform in the others?

    At least with Labour, you know there is clear water betwen them and Reform. With the Tories, I have no idea as they are bipolar. SFAICS the bipolarity is absolutely killing them, while making their minmd up could kill them quicker.

    (My current view: take a deep breath and vote Labour through gritted teeth).
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,404

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Is there some significant psychological barrier crossed when the Tories come fifth? Surely fourth would be bad enough

    Anyway I love these polls. A plague on both their houses

    Yes, right now some Tories have been able to argue that being third in the polls is due to Starmer being rubbish and boosting Reform, but ending up consistently fourth/fifth behind the Greens/Lib Dems will be a barrier crossed.
    And people don't like to be seen backing a loser.
    Yup, we'll end up with a donors' strike, that'll end Kemi's leadership.

    I am almost regretting vote for her.

    A fie on the parliamentary Tory Party for giving me a choice between Badenoch and Jenrick.
    Just disband the party. It’s over. Nothing is forever. Soft dads like you can join the LDs - and improve their offering - and harder types can join Reform, giving them gravitas

    Win win

    The next election should ideally be LDs versus Reform. That would be a good clear choice for the people. The two big parties need to go extinct now
    I could never join a party that supports the WASPI women.

    The fact that Wera Hobhouse hasn't been expelled for pushing 5G conspiracy theories is another black mark.
    Yeh but. No party is spotless. That's just an excuse.

    You're like Rory, struggling to overcome a deep suspicion of the LDs, not recognising that you're fighting an attraction. You need to come out as an LD. You'll be welcomed, as will Rory.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,833

    Maybe if the media called out genuine Farage bullshit the Tories would be a bit higher up the charts.

    Absolutely nothing on the BBC about his tacit approval of Trump's paracetamol-autism link, eating swans, and no calling out Trump's Sharia law in London claim. No analysis of Farage and the NHS. Couching his casual racism as normal, no wonder he's riding high.

    And Nathan Gill? Zip, nada, nothing ( except on here). Imagine if a Tory or Labour MEP had pleaded guilty to shilling for Putin.

    Call Reform and Farage out. Call out Dubai's own Richard Tice. Tell it like it is and the Tories claw back some support. Instead they probably replace Kemi with Jenrick who is Farage heavy and has a back story of a very dodgy donation from a Pornographer and donor. Call him out too. If he's your man, you deserve the oblivion you probably won't then get.

    Come on Tories, come on Kemi. Reform is your foe, fight them on the beaches of Clacton, Frinton and Great Yarmouth. They are on your manor.

    This Spectator writer seems to disagree about swans.

    "Laurie Wastell
    Nigel Farage has a point about migrants eating swans
    26 September 2025" (£)

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/nigel-farage-has-a-point-about-migrants-eating-swans/
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,781
    edited September 28
    The Mail on Sunday has more today on Larty Ellison's connections with Blair's stance on tech and ID projects, and the Byline Times also seens to be conmitted to delving in further to Peter Thiel's influence on Starmer carrying the policy, and their network of associations.

    I doubt this policy will last.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,700
    Reminder of what Starmer has just said about Reform

    ““There is an enemy”.

    Pretty extraordinary language from Starmer re Reform and Farage, especially given his personal friendliness in past.

    This is centrism now. Just a series of enemies (Corbyn, Farage, Polanski, the SNP…Burnham!) rather than an actual agenda for government.”

    https://x.com/aaronbastani/status/1971665355363045873?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    The prime minister, whose party is polling 16-22% has just called all the supporters of the party polling 30-34% - ie one third of the nation - “the enemy”

    This is such bad politics it’s farcical. He will only entrench the opposition and harden the hearts of those who already dislike him. And it won’t win him a single vote
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,583

    Maybe if the media called out genuine Farage bullshit the Tories would be a bit higher up the charts.

    Absolutely nothing on the BBC about his tacit approval of Trump's paracetamol-autism link, eating swans, and no calling out Trump's Sharia law in London claim. No analysis of Farage and the NHS. Couching his casual racism as normal, no wonder he's riding high.

    And Nathan Gill? Zip, nada, nothing ( except on here). Imagine if a Tory or Labour MEP had pleaded guilty to shilling for Putin.

    Call Reform and Farage out. Call out Dubai's own Richard Tice. Tell it like it is and the Tories claw back some support. Instead they probably replace Kemi with Jenrick who is Farage heavy and has a back story of a very dodgy donation from a Pornographer and donor. Call him out too. If he's your man, you deserve the oblivion you probably won't then get.

    Come on Tories, come on Kemi. Reform is your foe, fight them on the beaches of Clacton, Frinton and Great Yarmouth. They are on your manor.

    The entire political media will broadcast and magnify Kemi saying all of this in interviews. To be interviewed all she needs to do is ask. The media, rightly, have little interest in Tory hacks facing both ways. We can do that for ourselves without help.

  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 6,778

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Is there some significant psychological barrier crossed when the Tories come fifth? Surely fourth would be bad enough

    Anyway I love these polls. A plague on both their houses

    Yes, right now some Tories have been able to argue that being third in the polls is due to Starmer being rubbish and boosting Reform, but ending up consistently fourth/fifth behind the Greens/Lib Dems will be a barrier crossed.
    I agree, I was just querying that distinction twixt 4th and
    5th

    This feels like a death spiral now, for the Tories. As you say there’s a tipping point when they look terminally irrelevant and any vote for them is wasted. They are horribly close to that point, and it’s not obvious how they reverse the slide. Dumping poor Kemi is necessary - but not sufficient

    Labour have different problems. Unlikely to go extinct but facing a defeat so bad they are out of power for 15 years
    Perhaps.

    I am writing a piece which should go up later on this week which points out based on the MRPs/polls Reform are on course to win the election with a lower vote share/votes than Labour in 2024 (the YouGov MRP had them on 27%) and we saw how unpopular Labour became.

    I reckon within a year of the next election Reform could be in the single digits and we end up with a very left wing party leading the polls such as the Greens.
    For the Greens to overtake the Tories, they need Your Party not to take off, otherwise their vote will be split. However, if Your Party carry on as they are just now, and if Gaza is settled one way or another, the Greens could get a significant boost in support, possibly even taking them up to third place.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,108
    edited September 28
    Golf. The Racing Post's stick-ball correspondent predicts a comeback for the home team in today's singles, but not enough.

    SPotY. The problem is the BBC's eccentric shortlisting. Good luck to Stocky (fpt) on his Fleetwood bet, but it depends on the BBC looking past Rory McIlroy for the golf slot after his major win (the US Masters) last April brought up his career grand slam – only the sixth golfer to achieve this.

    ETA Ellie Kildunne actually drifted in the SPotY betting after yesterday's World Cup win, in which she scored an (apparently) outstanding first try. I can only imagine that in leaving the car park, she ran over a young orphan taking her poorly kitten to the vet. Or maybe punters started to wonder if she too would be nominated.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,192
    edited September 28
    For those broadly on the left things aren't looking too bad. Kemi has chosen to stay in lockstep with Reform which leaves the centre a big beautiful gaping hole with plenty of attractive options depending on constituency. The only certainty at the moment is that Reform can't win. 30% won't do it when for the 70% they are the worst possible option.

    I'm slightly confident about Starmer raising his game. He's quite a fast learner and by now he will realise that chasing populism is a fools errand. He's smart enough to know that people want authenticity and now he's tried the rest that should be next on his list. I saw an early interview with him and there's definitely something there.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,792

    Maybe if the media called out genuine Farage bullshit the Tories would be a bit higher up the charts.

    Absolutely nothing on the BBC about his tacit approval of Trump's paracetamol-autism link, eating swans, and no calling out Trump's Sharia law in London claim. No analysis of Farage and the NHS. Couching his casual racism as normal, no wonder he's riding high.

    And Nathan Gill? Zip, nada, nothing ( except on here). Imagine if a Tory or Labour MEP had pleaded guilty to shilling for Putin.

    Call Reform and Farage out. Call out Dubai's own Richard Tice. Tell it like it is and the Tories claw back some support. Instead they probably replace Kemi with Jenrick who is Farage heavy and has a back story of a very dodgy donation from a Pornographer and donor. Call him out too. If he's your man, you deserve the oblivion you probably won't then get.

    Come on Tories, come on Kemi. Reform is your foe, fight them on the beaches of Clacton, Frinton and Great Yarmouth. They are on your manor.

    Please, PLEASE, no fighting on the Beach at Frinton. That would NOT be seen as suitable behaviour.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 6,778

    Those people driving new cars on the never never, knowing they ain’t as rich as all those people driving shiny cars also living on their estate.

    I suspect they are all living lives of quiet desperation.

    .

    It’s the English way.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,792
    Roger said:

    For those broadly on the left things aren't looking too bad. Kemi has chosen to stay in lockstep with Reform which leaves the centre a big beautiful gaping hole with plenty of attractive options depending on constituency. The only certainty at the moment that Reform can't win. 30% won't do it when for 70% they are the worst possible option.

    I'm slightly confident about Starmer raising his game. He's quite a fast learner and by now he will realise that chasing populism is a fools errand. He's smart enough to know that people want authenticity and now he's tried the rest that should be next on his list. I saw an early interview with him and there's definitely something there.

    He was quite good on Laura K this morning. Positive, cheerful, practical.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,069
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Is there some significant psychological barrier crossed when the Tories come fifth? Surely fourth would be bad enough

    Anyway I love these polls. A plague on both their houses

    Yes, right now some Tories have been able to argue that being third in the polls is due to Starmer being rubbish and boosting Reform, but ending up consistently fourth/fifth behind the Greens/Lib Dems will be a barrier crossed.
    And people don't like to be seen backing a loser.
    Yup, we'll end up with a donors' strike, that'll end Kemi's leadership.

    I am almost regretting vote for her.

    A fie on the parliamentary Tory Party for giving me a choice between Badenoch and Jenrick.
    Just disband the party. It’s over. Nothing is forever. Soft dads like you can join the LDs - and improve their offering - and harder types can join Reform, giving them gravitas

    Win win

    The next election should ideally be LDs versus Reform. That would be a good clear choice for the people. The two big parties need to go extinct now
    The Ultras said the same. And kept the Tories from power for a generation. But ultimately society moved on and the voters realised that tariffs on corn were not a good thing and the Ultras disappeared.

    A moderate right of centre party is a good thing. The Tories are not delivering at the moment and seem irrelevant in the face of the howling bot-amplified screams from Reform. But ultimately they will be back.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,833

    John Curtice on Kuenssberg has said a new government has never lost support as fast as this one

    Of interest labour has lost 12% to Reform, 11% to Lib Dems and 10% to Greens

    He said the 2024 labour support has fractured in all directions

    How much of it is explained by the fact that people's patience is shorter than it used to be? Possibly quite a lot. (Not a good thing in general in my opinion).
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,854

    Leon said:

    Is there some significant psychological barrier crossed when the Tories come fifth? Surely fourth would be bad enough

    Anyway I love these polls. A plague on both their houses

    Yes, right now some Tories have been able to argue that being third in the polls is due to Starmer being rubbish and boosting Reform, but ending up consistently fourth/fifth behind the Greens/Lib Dems will be a barrier crossed.
    And people don't like to be seen backing a loser.
    Yup, we'll end up with a donors' strike, that'll end Kemi's leadership.

    I am almost regretting vote for her.

    A fie on the parliamentary Tory Party for giving me a choice between Badenoch and Jenrick.
    To be fair, the last Tory leadership election was hardly a meeting of the Athenaeum...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,700
    Roger said:

    For those broadly on the left things aren't looking too bad. Kemi has chosen to stay in lockstep with Reform which leaves the centre a big beautiful gaping hole with plenty of attractive options depending on constituency. The only certainty at the moment is that Reform can't win. 30% won't do it when for the 70% they are the worst possible option.

    I'm slightly confident about Starmer raising his game. He's quite a fast learner and by now he will realise that chasing populism is a fools errand. He's smart enough to know that people want authenticity and now he's tried the rest that should be next on his list. I saw an early interview with him and there's definitely something there.

    Ok that’s it. This is a self parody. And a rather good one

    I like to think of your chuckling over your crème de menthe frappe in sunny Villefranche as you typed out that ludicrously Roger-esque bilge, perfectly replete with imbecile non-facts and absurd non sequiturs
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,583
    Barnesian said:

    John Curtice on Kuenssberg has said a new government has never lost support as fast as this one

    Of interest labour has lost 12% to Reform, 11% to Lib Dems and 10% to Greens

    He said the 2024 labour support has fractured in all directions

    In contrast, Tories have lost 32% to Reform and very little to other parties.
    I should think the Tories lost nearly all the people they could lose to LD/Labour at the 2024 election. Only the die hards and rightists stayed loyal.
  • PJHPJH Posts: 933

    Leon said:

    Is there some significant psychological barrier crossed when the Tories come fifth? Surely fourth would be bad enough

    Anyway I love these polls. A plague on both their houses

    Yes, right now some Tories have been able to argue that being third in the polls is due to Starmer being rubbish and boosting Reform, but ending up consistently fourth/fifth behind the Greens/Lib Dems will be a barrier crossed.
    And people don't like to be seen backing a loser.
    Yup, we'll end up with a donors' strike, that'll end Kemi's leadership.

    I am almost regretting vote for her.

    A fie on the parliamentary Tory Party for giving me a choice between Badenoch and Jenrick.
    You were right though. She is better than Jenrick, for both the Tories and the country, given the choice you had.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,377
    Morning all from rural Derbyshire :)

    Amongst the post waiting for us was a glossy four page leaflet from the local MP, Linsey Farnsworth, which is a litany of her successes and accomplishments from her first year as Amber Valley’s MP and also mentions her Private Members Bill - the Unauthorised Entry to Football Matches Bill.

    In this missive, you won’t find the following words - Labour, Conservative or Reform.

    It could have been produced by an Independent Councillor - I’ve seen LD and Conservative leaflets of this type, politically non-political and often a good thing if the Party label is unpopular.

    On current trends, it’s hard to see anything other than a Reform win in Amber Valley next time though the GE is a long way off.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,700

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Is there some significant psychological barrier crossed when the Tories come fifth? Surely fourth would be bad enough

    Anyway I love these polls. A plague on both their houses

    Yes, right now some Tories have been able to argue that being third in the polls is due to Starmer being rubbish and boosting Reform, but ending up consistently fourth/fifth behind the Greens/Lib Dems will be a barrier crossed.
    And people don't like to be seen backing a loser.
    Yup, we'll end up with a donors' strike, that'll end Kemi's leadership.

    I am almost regretting vote for her.

    A fie on the parliamentary Tory Party for giving me a choice between Badenoch and Jenrick.
    Just disband the party. It’s over. Nothing is forever. Soft dads like you can join the LDs - and improve their offering - and harder types can join Reform, giving them gravitas

    Win win

    The next election should ideally be LDs versus Reform. That would be a good clear choice for the people. The two big parties need to go extinct now
    The Ultras said the same. And kept the Tories from power for a generation. But ultimately society moved on and the voters realised that tariffs on corn were not a good thing and the Ultras disappeared.

    A moderate right of centre party is a good thing. The Tories are not delivering at the moment and seem irrelevant in the face of the howling bot-amplified screams from Reform. But ultimately they will be back.
    These are not moderate times. I’m not sure moderate times will ever return

    And now I must drink coffee and do some work on this grey cool Sunday. Later
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,843
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Is there some significant psychological barrier crossed when the Tories come fifth? Surely fourth would be bad enough

    Anyway I love these polls. A plague on both their houses

    Yes, right now some Tories have been able to argue that being third in the polls is due to Starmer being rubbish and boosting Reform, but ending up consistently fourth/fifth behind the Greens/Lib Dems will be a barrier crossed.
    I agree, I was just querying that distinction twixt 4th and
    5th

    This feels like a death spiral now, for the Tories. As you say there’s a tipping point when they look terminally irrelevant and any vote for them is wasted. They are horribly close to that point, and it’s not obvious how they reverse the slide. Dumping poor Kemi is necessary - but not sufficient

    Labour have different problems. Unlikely to go extinct but facing a defeat so bad they are out of power for 15 years
    Perhaps.

    I am writing a piece which should go up later on this week which points out based on the MRPs/polls Reform are on course to win the election with a lower vote share/votes than Labour in 2024 (The YouGov MRP had them on 27%) and we saw how unpopular Labour became.

    I reckon within a year of the next election Reform could be in the single digits and we end up with a very left wing party leading the polls such as the Greens.
    That’s the consensus prediction at Knapper’s Gazette, interestingly

    Reform win, fuck it all up, and the NEXT government is far left

    It is quite possible, especially as by then we may need UBI

    We are in a hi-tech rehash of the 1930s
    Taxi driving is about to go the way of the dodo. Waymo has proved it works and Tesla are about to revolutionise building of autonomous vehicles with their new process. I don't know how many people work in car transportation but we should expect it to drop by over 90% in the next decade and for delivery driver pay to crash due to oversupply of qualified drivers.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Is there some significant psychological barrier crossed when the Tories come fifth? Surely fourth would be bad enough

    Anyway I love these polls. A plague on both their houses

    Yes, right now some Tories have been able to argue that being third in the polls is due to Starmer being rubbish and boosting Reform, but ending up consistently fourth/fifth behind the Greens/Lib Dems will be a barrier crossed.
    I agree, I was just querying that distinction twixt 4th and
    5th

    This feels like a death spiral now, for the Tories. As you say there’s a tipping point when they look terminally irrelevant and any vote for them is wasted. They are horribly close to that point, and it’s not obvious how they reverse the slide. Dumping poor Kemi is necessary - but not sufficient

    Labour have different problems. Unlikely to go extinct but facing a defeat so bad they are out of power for 15 years
    Perhaps.

    I am writing a piece which should go up later on this week which points out based on the MRPs/polls Reform are on course to win the election with a lower vote share/votes than Labour in 2024 (The YouGov MRP had them on 27%) and we saw how unpopular Labour became.

    I reckon within a year of the next election Reform could be in the single digits and we end up with a very left wing party leading the polls such as the Greens.
    That’s the consensus prediction at Knapper’s Gazette, interestingly

    Reform win, fuck it all up, and the NEXT government is far left

    It is quite possible, especially as by then we may need UBI

    We are in a hi-tech rehash of the 1930s
    One in which the KPD beat the brown filth?

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,583
    Roger said:

    For those broadly on the left things aren't looking too bad. Kemi has chosen to stay in lockstep with Reform which leaves the centre a big beautiful gaping hole with plenty of attractive options depending on constituency. The only certainty at the moment is that Reform can't win. 30% won't do it when for the 70% they are the worst possible option.

    I'm slightly confident about Starmer raising his game. He's quite a fast learner and by now he will realise that chasing populism is a fools errand. He's smart enough to know that people want authenticity and now he's tried the rest that should be next on his list. I saw an early interview with him and there's definitely something there.

    Read the bit in bold slowly, carefully, several times. Pure poetry.
  • Barnesian said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Is there some significant psychological barrier crossed when the Tories come fifth? Surely fourth would be bad enough

    Anyway I love these polls. A plague on both their houses

    Yes, right now some Tories have been able to argue that being third in the polls is due to Starmer being rubbish and boosting Reform, but ending up consistently fourth/fifth behind the Greens/Lib Dems will be a barrier crossed.
    And people don't like to be seen backing a loser.
    Yup, we'll end up with a donors' strike, that'll end Kemi's leadership.

    I am almost regretting vote for her.

    A fie on the parliamentary Tory Party for giving me a choice between Badenoch and Jenrick.
    Just disband the party. It’s over. Nothing is forever. Soft dads like you can join the LDs - and improve their offering - and harder types can join Reform, giving them gravitas

    Win win

    The next election should ideally be LDs versus Reform. That would be a good clear choice for the people. The two big parties need to go extinct now
    I could never join a party that supports the WASPI women.

    The fact that Wera Hobhouse hasn't been expelled for pushing 5G conspiracy theories is another black mark.
    Yeh but. No party is spotless. That's just an excuse.

    You're like Rory, struggling to overcome a deep suspicion of the LDs, not recognising that you're fighting an attraction. You need to come out as an LD. You'll be welcomed, as will Rory.
    This argument is false. Just because I wouldn't vote for one set of loons doesn't mean I shold vote for another set because they are slightly less loony - or actually just as loony but in a different way.

    I will continue to do what I have done at almost every GE. I will study and if possible talk to the candidates standing in my constituency, expecially the independents and will then either vote for an independent or will spoil my ballot. I will not vote for any candidate backed by any of the four (in my area) main parties as that affiliation on their part shows a serious and irredeemable lack of intelligence.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,377

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Is there some significant psychological barrier crossed when the Tories come fifth? Surely fourth would be bad enough

    Anyway I love these polls. A plague on both their houses

    Yes, right now some Tories have been able to argue that being third in the polls is due to Starmer being rubbish and boosting Reform, but ending up consistently fourth/fifth behind the Greens/Lib Dems will be a barrier crossed.
    And people don't like to be seen backing a loser.
    Yup, we'll end up with a donors' strike, that'll end Kemi's leadership.

    I am almost regretting vote for her.

    A fie on the parliamentary Tory Party for giving me a choice between Badenoch and Jenrick.
    Just disband the party. It’s over. Nothing is forever. Soft dads like you can join the LDs - and improve their offering - and harder types can join Reform, giving them gravitas

    Win win

    The next election should ideally be LDs versus Reform. That would be a good clear choice for the people. The two big parties need to go extinct now
    I could never join a party that supports the WASPI women.

    The fact that Wera Hobhouse hasn't been expelled for pushing 5G conspiracy theories is another black mark.
    You can’t just join any party you like or don’t like on a whim - ridiculous.

    The key question is whether you would vote Liberal Democrat tactically to stop Reform - I suspect those who did so to stop the Conservatives wouldn’t have any issue if it were to stop Farage becoming Prime Minister.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,054
    edited September 28
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Is there some significant psychological barrier crossed when the Tories come fifth? Surely fourth would be bad enough

    Anyway I love these polls. A plague on both their houses

    Yes, right now some Tories have been able to argue that being third in the polls is due to Starmer being rubbish and boosting Reform, but ending up consistently fourth/fifth behind the Greens/Lib Dems will be a barrier crossed.
    I agree, I was just querying that distinction twixt 4th and
    5th

    This feels like a death spiral now, for the Tories. As you say there’s a tipping point when they look terminally irrelevant and any vote for them is wasted. They are horribly close to that point, and it’s not obvious how they reverse the slide. Dumping poor Kemi is necessary - but not sufficient

    Labour have different problems. Unlikely to go extinct but facing a defeat so bad they are out of power for 15 years
    Perhaps.

    I am writing a piece which should go up later on this week which points out based on the MRPs/polls Reform are on course to win the election with a lower vote share/votes than Labour in 2024 (The YouGov MRP had them on 27%) and we saw how unpopular Labour became.

    I reckon within a year of the next election Reform could be in the single digits and we end up with a very left wing party leading the polls such as the Greens.
    That’s the consensus prediction at Knapper’s Gazette, interestingly

    Reform win, fuck it all up, and the NEXT government is far left

    It is quite possible, especially as by then we may need UBI

    We are in a hi-tech rehash of the 1930s
    Taxi driving is about to go the way of the dodo. Waymo has proved it works and Tesla are about to revolutionise building of autonomous vehicles with their new process. I don't know how many people work in car transportation but we should expect it to drop by over 90% in the next decade and for delivery driver pay to crash due to oversupply of qualified drivers.
    Wayve is also on the scene....and the 27 different Chinese companies working on this (looking forward to trying these in a few weeks, checking the T&Cs on travel insurance !!!).
  • Those people driving new cars on the never never, knowing they ain’t as rich as all those people driving shiny cars also living on their estate.

    I suspect they are all living lives of quiet desperation.

    .

    Though the quiet desperation seems to have had the volume turned up.
  • PJHPJH Posts: 933
    algarkirk said:

    Even if I am the last one standing I remain a conservative voter

    And if anyone wants to defeat Farage then the conservative party is an important element in that

    As far as Badenoch is concerned I await her conferences speech with interest

    Unfortunately (and I don't say this with any joy at all) the Conservatives aren't an important element in fighting Farage. About half are impotent bystanders, the other half actively want to get into bed with Nigel.

    It's not over until the fat lady sings, but there is a deep alto tune coming from somewhere nearby. And those of us who think of ourselves as on the moderate right are going to have to decide which of those words matters more to us.

    As for me, I think I know the answer, but it will make my ancestors spin in their graves...
    The bipolar nature of the Tory party is going to become critical WRT tactical voting. Cumbria is a nice example. Apart from Tim Farron's fiefdom all seats are currently Labour, all in 2019 were Tory, (in 2017 three were Tory, two Labour + Tim Farron) all are projected to become Reform next time. So they are a nice miniature of much of England.

    Farron's seat will stay LD, who have nearly zero chance in the others. Who do you vote for to vote against Reform in the others?

    At least with Labour, you know there is clear water betwen them and Reform. With the Tories, I have no idea as they are bipolar. SFAICS the bipolarity is absolutely killing them, while making their minmd up could kill them quicker.

    (My current view: take a deep breath and vote Labour through gritted teeth).
    I think for many small-c conservatives, that is the right choice. Labour are, after all, governing as a small-c conservative party currently. And I expect enough will make it through gritted teeth to keep Reform out, if things stay as they are.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 6,778
    Leon said:

    Reminder of what Starmer has just said about Reform

    ““There is an enemy”.

    Pretty extraordinary language from Starmer re Reform and Farage, especially given his personal friendliness in past.

    This is centrism now. Just a series of enemies (Corbyn, Farage, Polanski, the SNP…Burnham!) rather than an actual agenda for government.”

    https://x.com/aaronbastani/status/1971665355363045873?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    The prime minister, whose party is polling 16-22% has just called all the supporters of the party polling 30-34% - ie one third of the nation - “the enemy”

    This is such bad politics it’s farcical. He will only entrench the opposition and harden the hearts of those who already dislike him. And it won’t win him a single vote

    Labour are going to come third at best at Holyrood next year. Anas Sarwar was on the telly this morning. He is so busy attacking the SNP that he hasn’t noticed Reform overtaking him on the blind side.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 67,641
    edited September 28
    Leon said:

    Reminder of what Starmer has just said about Reform

    ““There is an enemy”.

    Pretty extraordinary language from Starmer re Reform and Farage, especially given his personal friendliness in past.

    This is centrism now. Just a series of enemies (Corbyn, Farage, Polanski, the SNP…Burnham!) rather than an actual agenda for government.”

    https://x.com/aaronbastani/status/1971665355363045873?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    The prime minister, whose party is polling 16-22% has just called all the supporters of the party polling 30-34% - ie one third of the nation - “the enemy”

    This is such bad politics it’s farcical. He will only entrench the opposition and harden the hearts of those who already dislike him. And it won’t win him a single vote

    The prime minister, whose party is polling 16-22% has just called all the supporters of the party polling 30-34% - ie one third of the nation - “the enemy"

    That is the point Trevor Phillips put to Steve Reed this morning
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,833
    edited September 28
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Is there some significant psychological barrier crossed when the Tories come fifth? Surely fourth would be bad enough

    Anyway I love these polls. A plague on both their houses

    Yes, right now some Tories have been able to argue that being third in the polls is due to Starmer being rubbish and boosting Reform, but ending up consistently fourth/fifth behind the Greens/Lib Dems will be a barrier crossed.
    I agree, I was just querying that distinction twixt 4th and
    5th

    This feels like a death spiral now, for the Tories. As you say there’s a tipping point when they look terminally irrelevant and any vote for them is wasted. They are horribly close to that point, and it’s not obvious how they reverse the slide. Dumping poor Kemi is necessary - but not sufficient

    Labour have different problems. Unlikely to go extinct but facing a defeat so bad they are out of power for 15 years
    Perhaps.

    I am writing a piece which should go up later on this week which points out based on the MRPs/polls Reform are on course to win the election with a lower vote share/votes than Labour in 2024 (The YouGov MRP had them on 27%) and we saw how unpopular Labour became.

    I reckon within a year of the next election Reform could be in the single digits and we end up with a very left wing party leading the polls such as the Greens.
    That’s the consensus prediction at Knapper’s Gazette, interestingly

    Reform win, fuck it all up, and the NEXT government is far left

    It is quite possible, especially as by then we may need UBI

    We are in a hi-tech rehash of the 1930s
    They're wrong about a far-left government imo. Won't happen.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,732
    John Rentoul and friends think Sir Keir will survive to lead Labour into the next election. And be Pam afterwards

    How Keir Starmer could survive and even win the next election: my weekend article for @Independent

    https://x.com/johnrentoul/status/1971931441245110281?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • PJHPJH Posts: 933

    Maybe if the media called out genuine Farage bullshit the Tories would be a bit higher up the charts.

    Absolutely nothing on the BBC about his tacit approval of Trump's paracetamol-autism link, eating swans, and no calling out Trump's Sharia law in London claim. No analysis of Farage and the NHS. Couching his casual racism as normal, no wonder he's riding high.

    And Nathan Gill? Zip, nada, nothing ( except on here). Imagine if a Tory or Labour MEP had pleaded guilty to shilling for Putin.

    Call Reform and Farage out. Call out Dubai's own Richard Tice. Tell it like it is and the Tories claw back some support. Instead they probably replace Kemi with Jenrick who is Farage heavy and has a back story of a very dodgy donation from a Pornographer and donor. Call him out too. If he's your man, you deserve the oblivion you probably won't then get.

    Come on Tories, come on Kemi. Reform is your foe, fight them on the beaches of Clacton, Frinton and Great Yarmouth. They are on your manor.

    Please, PLEASE, no fighting on the Beach at Frinton. That would NOT be seen as suitable behaviour.
    Yes, indeed, Lowers the tone. Move along to Walton please.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,054
    edited September 28
    This rather sums up the infrastructure issue...

    The construction of three new towns will begin before the next general election, Labour has pledged.

    3 (not) new towns, to hopefully start to be built 5+ years after they were first planned.
  • Leon said:

    Reminder of what Starmer has just said about Reform

    ““There is an enemy”.

    Pretty extraordinary language from Starmer re Reform and Farage, especially given his personal friendliness in past.

    This is centrism now. Just a series of enemies (Corbyn, Farage, Polanski, the SNP…Burnham!) rather than an actual agenda for government.”

    https://x.com/aaronbastani/status/1971665355363045873?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    The prime minister, whose party is polling 16-22% has just called all the supporters of the party polling 30-34% - ie one third of the nation - “the enemy”

    This is such bad politics it’s farcical. He will only entrench the opposition and harden the hearts of those who already dislike him. And it won’t win him a single vote

    As we said months ago, Labour should not be turning its big guns on Reform. Doing so will benefit the Conservative Party who are still more likely long-term opponents given Farage's history of leading one-man bands.

    But if Starmer must do this damn silly thing, he should not do it in this damn silly way. As you suggest, Starmer seems not to have realised the difference between attacking Reform politicians and attacking the general public who might be flirting with them.

    And especially not when the proximate cause of Epping was not opposition to migrants per se, but protecting young girls. It is the careless, supercilious centrism that led to the grooming scandals in Rotherham and elsewhere. Of course racists are bad, but so are rapists and most people, if not most politicians, can happily oppose both.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,732
    isam said:

    John Rentoul and friends think Sir Keir will survive to lead Labour into the next election. And be Pam afterwards

    How Keir Starmer could survive and even win the next election: my weekend article for @Independent

    https://x.com/johnrentoul/status/1971931441245110281?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    But Dan Neidle, often accused of being Labour’s tax man, is sinking his teeth into Starmer over his ‘trust’

    When Keir Starmer gave a field to his parents, he used a "life interest trust". This meant that, as its value grew from £20k to £300k, it was outside their inheritance tax estate.

    How did this work? And was it tax avoidance?

    🧵


    https://x.com/danneidle/status/1972201110929568092?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • isam said:

    isam said:

    John Rentoul and friends think Sir Keir will survive to lead Labour into the next election. And be Pam afterwards

    How Keir Starmer could survive and even win the next election: my weekend article for @Independent

    https://x.com/johnrentoul/status/1971931441245110281?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    But Dan Neidle, often accused of being Labour’s tax man, is sinking his teeth into Starmer over his ‘trust’

    When Keir Starmer gave a field to his parents, he used a "life interest trust". This meant that, as its value grew from £20k to £300k, it was outside their inheritance tax estate.

    How did this work? And was it tax avoidance?

    🧵


    https://x.com/danneidle/status/1972201110929568092?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    How did its value grow from £20k to £300k ?
  • Roger said:

    For those broadly on the left things aren't looking too bad. Kemi has chosen to stay in lockstep with Reform which leaves the centre a big beautiful gaping hole with plenty of attractive options depending on constituency. The only certainty at the moment is that Reform can't win. 30% won't do it when for the 70% they are the worst possible option.

    I'm slightly confident about Starmer raising his game. He's quite a fast learner and by now he will realise that chasing populism is a fools errand. He's smart enough to know that people want authenticity and now he's tried the rest that should be next on his list. I saw an early interview with him and there's definitely something there.

    'The only certainty at the moment is that Reform can't win'

    Sorry @Roger that is nonsense, and why on earth is Starmer making his conference about calling 30-34% of the Reform support the 'enemy' ?

    No wonder even his membership are turning against him, and how do you explain he is polling as the worst PM even eclipsing Liz Truss ?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,054
    edited September 28
    Don't know what is sadder, Labour aping Trump, the conference attendees lapping it up.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 6,226

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Is there some significant psychological barrier crossed when the Tories come fifth? Surely fourth would be bad enough

    Anyway I love these polls. A plague on both their houses

    Yes, right now some Tories have been able to argue that being third in the polls is due to Starmer being rubbish and boosting Reform, but ending up consistently fourth/fifth behind the Greens/Lib Dems will be a barrier crossed.
    I agree, I was just querying that distinction twixt 4th and
    5th

    This feels like a death spiral now, for the Tories. As you say there’s a tipping point when they look terminally irrelevant and any vote for them is wasted. They are horribly close to that point, and it’s not obvious how they reverse the slide. Dumping poor Kemi is necessary - but not sufficient

    Labour have different problems. Unlikely to go extinct but facing a defeat so bad they are out of power for 15 years
    For the Conservatives, chasing Reform to the right ships votes to the LibDems, but moving to the centre ships votes to the right. The underlying problem is shorn of their illusion of inevitability, the party cannot attract small-c Conservative voters who will hold their noses to keep Labour out. And Labour's problem is much the same, mutatis mutandis. Neither leader can answer the question, what is your party for? What is the point of it?

    Kemi might be the Tories' best bet at the moment, if the alternative threatens to swing the party too far in one direction.
    There were evidently very many voters at the last election who flirted with Farage but then plumped for the big 2, so as not to waste their vote in trying to block their chosen baddie.

    What the polling consistency since the election has achieved is giving Farage the air of inevitability. Sure, there’s a decent demographic who would vote tactically for Satan to block Farage. That demographic is well represented (over represented?) on here. But there’s also a massive demographic that hates the Tories/labour/both with enough gusto that by 2029, we might even see a tactical voting net swing in favour of Farage rather than against, compared with the polling averages.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 16,214
    edited September 28
    Just done the LLG vs RefCon numbers on those polls. Usually they’re more consistent between pollsters than the individual parties, but there’s quite a spread this time.

    In order they appear in the header, they’re:

    LLG 46 RefCon 48
    LLG 41 RefCon 50
    LLG 47 RefCon 45

    So we have quite the spread between Find out Now giving the right a 9% lead, and Yougov with LLG slightly in the lead.

    But in all of them the SPLORG has a handsome margin. The highest Lab-Con is 37% in YouGov.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,583
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Is there some significant psychological barrier crossed when the Tories come fifth? Surely fourth would be bad enough

    Anyway I love these polls. A plague on both their houses

    Yes, right now some Tories have been able to argue that being third in the polls is due to Starmer being rubbish and boosting Reform, but ending up consistently fourth/fifth behind the Greens/Lib Dems will be a barrier crossed.
    And people don't like to be seen backing a loser.
    Yup, we'll end up with a donors' strike, that'll end Kemi's leadership.

    I am almost regretting vote for her.

    A fie on the parliamentary Tory Party for giving me a choice between Badenoch and Jenrick.
    Just disband the party. It’s over. Nothing is forever. Soft dads like you can join the LDs - and improve their offering - and harder types can join Reform, giving them gravitas

    Win win

    The next election should ideally be LDs versus Reform. That would be a good clear choice for the people. The two big parties need to go extinct now
    The Ultras said the same. And kept the Tories from power for a generation. But ultimately society moved on and the voters realised that tariffs on corn were not a good thing and the Ultras disappeared.

    A moderate right of centre party is a good thing. The Tories are not delivering at the moment and seem irrelevant in the face of the howling bot-amplified screams from Reform. But ultimately they will be back.
    These are not moderate times. I’m not sure moderate times will ever return

    And now I must drink coffee and do some work on this grey cool Sunday. Later
    You may be right. Moderation requires a population who believe that happiness consists in right expectations + the belief that a moral political order can protect, defend and sustain them. This also requires a political order that can produce reasonably honest manifestos at elections. This is a little way off, though we may get there once all else has been tried.

    IMHO the largest problem in the way of this is not the future but the past. Older voters (I am 70) have two perceptions about the past. Firstly that it was, on the whole, a happier place for young people, and secondly that the accumulated baggage of the world on the 21st century (Twin Towers, Iraq, GFC, NHS, migration, Brexit etc) mean that any government starts off needing 500 to win with three wickets left because of how the earlier batsmen failed.
  • Leon said:

    Reminder of what Starmer has just said about Reform

    ““There is an enemy”.

    Pretty extraordinary language from Starmer re Reform and Farage, especially given his personal friendliness in past.

    This is centrism now. Just a series of enemies (Corbyn, Farage, Polanski, the SNP…Burnham!) rather than an actual agenda for government.”

    https://x.com/aaronbastani/status/1971665355363045873?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    The prime minister, whose party is polling 16-22% has just called all the supporters of the party polling 30-34% - ie one third of the nation - “the enemy”

    This is such bad politics it’s farcical. He will only entrench the opposition and harden the hearts of those who already dislike him. And it won’t win him a single vote

    As we said months ago, Labour should not be turning its big guns on Reform. Doing so will benefit the Conservative Party who are still more likely long-term opponents given Farage's history of leading one-man bands.

    But if Starmer must do this damn silly thing, he should not do it in this damn silly way. As you suggest, Starmer seems not to have realised the difference between attacking Reform politicians and attacking the general public who might be flirting with them.

    And especially not when the proximate cause of Epping was not opposition to migrants per se, but protecting young girls. It is the careless, supercilious centrism that led to the grooming scandals in Rotherham and elsewhere. Of course racists are bad, but so are rapists and most people, if not most politicians, can happily oppose both.
    The Rotherham rapists were also racists.

    Only of a type of racism that 'anti-racists', supercilious centrists and the alphabet soup pretend doesn't exist.
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,189
    Leon said:

    Roger said:

    For those broadly on the left things aren't looking too bad. Kemi has chosen to stay in lockstep with Reform which leaves the centre a big beautiful gaping hole with plenty of attractive options depending on constituency. The only certainty at the moment is that Reform can't win. 30% won't do it when for the 70% they are the worst possible option.

    I'm slightly confident about Starmer raising his game. He's quite a fast learner and by now he will realise that chasing populism is a fools errand. He's smart enough to know that people want authenticity and now he's tried the rest that should be next on his list. I saw an early interview with him and there's definitely something there.

    Ok that’s it. This is a self parody. And a rather good one

    I like to think of your chuckling over your crème de menthe frappe in sunny Villefranche as you typed out that ludicrously Roger-esque bilge, perfectly replete with imbecile non-facts and absurd non sequiturs
    Leon said:

    Roger said:

    For those broadly on the left things aren't looking too bad. Kemi has chosen to stay in lockstep with Reform which leaves the centre a big beautiful gaping hole with plenty of attractive options depending on constituency. The only certainty at the moment is that Reform can't win. 30% won't do it when for the 70% they are the worst possible option.

    I'm slightly confident about Starmer raising his game. He's quite a fast learner and by now he will realise that chasing populism is a fools errand. He's smart enough to know that people want authenticity and now he's tried the rest that should be next on his list. I saw an early interview with him and there's definitely something there.

    Ok that’s it. This is a self parody. And a rather good one

    I like to think of your chuckling over your crème de menthe frappe in sunny Villefranche as you typed out that ludicrously Roger-esque bilge, perfectly replete with imbecile non-facts and absurd non sequiturs
    I’m in Villefranche-sur-Mer at the moment and it’s most sunny
  • Andy_JS said:

    John Curtice on Kuenssberg has said a new government has never lost support as fast as this one

    Of interest labour has lost 12% to Reform, 11% to Lib Dems and 10% to Greens

    He said the 2024 labour support has fractured in all directions

    How much of it is explained by the fact that people's patience is shorter than it used to be? Possibly quite a lot. (Not a good thing in general in my opinion).
    A more likely reason (and one Nigel Farage might articulate) is this lot are the same as the last lot. Bland centrism making some things slightly worse (wfa cuts) and nothing better (vat on private schools and NetZero might be nice but there's no short-term payoff) and mired in the same sort of low-key scandals that plagued Boris in particular with new glasses and free dresses from millionaires being the new gold wallpaper.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,521

    Golf. The Racing Post's stick-ball correspondent predicts a comeback for the home team in today's singles, but not enough.

    SPotY. The problem is the BBC's eccentric shortlisting. Good luck to Stocky (fpt) on his Fleetwood bet, but it depends on the BBC looking past Rory McIlroy for the golf slot after his major win (the US Masters) last April brought up his career grand slam – only the sixth golfer to achieve this.

    ETA Ellie Kildunne actually drifted in the SPotY betting after yesterday's World Cup win, in which she scored an (apparently) outstanding first try. I can only imagine that in leaving the car park, she ran over a young orphan taking her poorly kitten to the vet. Or maybe punters started to wonder if she too would be nominated.

    It’s quite sad really the lack of fanfare the English Ladies rugby people are getting compared to the footballers. I think with Ellie Kildunne she was the most recognisable player in the team but now with the final won it might be harder to select one player from a minority sport. They hopefully will get the team award.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,676

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Is there some significant psychological barrier crossed when the Tories come fifth? Surely fourth would be bad enough

    Anyway I love these polls. A plague on both their houses

    Yes, right now some Tories have been able to argue that being third in the polls is due to Starmer being rubbish and boosting Reform, but ending up consistently fourth/fifth behind the Greens/Lib Dems will be a barrier crossed.
    I agree, I was just querying that distinction twixt 4th and
    5th

    This feels like a death spiral now, for the Tories. As you say there’s a tipping point when they look terminally irrelevant and any vote for them is wasted. They are horribly close to that point, and it’s not obvious how they reverse the slide. Dumping poor Kemi is necessary - but not sufficient

    Labour have different problems. Unlikely to go extinct but facing a defeat so bad they are out of power for 15 years
    Perhaps.

    I am writing a piece which should go up later on this week which points out based on the MRPs/polls Reform are on course to win the election with a lower vote share/votes than Labour in 2024 (The YouGov MRP had them on 27%) and we saw how unpopular Labour became.

    I reckon within a year of the next election Reform could be in the single digits and we end up with a very left wing party leading the polls such as the Greens.
    That’s the consensus prediction at Knapper’s Gazette, interestingly

    Reform win, fuck it all up, and the NEXT government is far left

    It is quite possible, especially as by then we may need UBI

    We are in a hi-tech rehash of the 1930s
    One in which the KPD beat the brown filth?

    Leon has been hankering, on and off, for a return to some sort of 1930s politics for as long as I can recall.
    One might almost call his extrapolations wishcasting.
  • Don't know what is sadder, Labour aping Trump, the conference attendees lapping it up.
    I cannot beleve they could be so stupid to mimic MAGA

    They really are losing it
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,676
    Learned today that Dmitri Shostakovich was a fan of Jesus Christ Superstar in his final years.

    Mind very slightly blown.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,443
    isam said:

    isam said:

    John Rentoul and friends think Sir Keir will survive to lead Labour into the next election. And be Pam afterwards

    How Keir Starmer could survive and even win the next election: my weekend article for @Independent

    https://x.com/johnrentoul/status/1971931441245110281?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    But Dan Neidle, often accused of being Labour’s tax man, is sinking his teeth into Starmer over his ‘trust’

    When Keir Starmer gave a field to his parents, he used a "life interest trust". This meant that, as its value grew from £20k to £300k, it was outside their inheritance tax estate.

    How did this work? And was it tax avoidance?

    🧵


    https://x.com/danneidle/status/1972201110929568092?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    It would have made no difference anyway as the whole estate including the land meant the kids wouldn’t have paid inheritance tax . The whole story is just trying to find wrong doing when there’s no evidence he tried to avoid any tax and goes down a number of what ifs .
  • isamisam Posts: 42,732

    isam said:

    isam said:

    John Rentoul and friends think Sir Keir will survive to lead Labour into the next election. And be Pam afterwards

    How Keir Starmer could survive and even win the next election: my weekend article for @Independent

    https://x.com/johnrentoul/status/1971931441245110281?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    But Dan Neidle, often accused of being Labour’s tax man, is sinking his teeth into Starmer over his ‘trust’

    When Keir Starmer gave a field to his parents, he used a "life interest trust". This meant that, as its value grew from £20k to £300k, it was outside their inheritance tax estate.

    How did this work? And was it tax avoidance?

    🧵


    https://x.com/danneidle/status/1972201110929568092?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    How did its value grow from £20k to £300k ?
    I think he bought it in 1996 and sold it around 2018. To be fair, reading the thread, Neidle hints at skullduggery but seems to come to the conclusion that all is above board, other than Sir Keir flip flopping on whether it was a trust or not. Usual stuff really, he probably did something against the spirit of the rules, but technically he can say he obeyed the law
  • boulay said:

    Golf. The Racing Post's stick-ball correspondent predicts a comeback for the home team in today's singles, but not enough.

    SPotY. The problem is the BBC's eccentric shortlisting. Good luck to Stocky (fpt) on his Fleetwood bet, but it depends on the BBC looking past Rory McIlroy for the golf slot after his major win (the US Masters) last April brought up his career grand slam – only the sixth golfer to achieve this.

    ETA Ellie Kildunne actually drifted in the SPotY betting after yesterday's World Cup win, in which she scored an (apparently) outstanding first try. I can only imagine that in leaving the car park, she ran over a young orphan taking her poorly kitten to the vet. Or maybe punters started to wonder if she too would be nominated.

    It’s quite sad really the lack of fanfare the English Ladies rugby people are getting compared to the footballers. I think with Ellie Kildunne she was the most recognisable player in the team but now with the final won it might be harder to select one player from a minority sport. They hopefully will get the team award.

    Trouble is, giving the Red Roses the team award hurts Ellie's chances in the main SPotY event. Of course, now the Ryder Cup golfers might get the team award which puts Ellie back in play at around 20/1. It is a bit of a shame that both happen on the same weekend.
  • I'm very disappointed by Starmer's letters

    I got my hopes up when I noticed the obvious donkey in Keir Rodney, but I can't make anything funny out of the rest
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,299

    Those people driving new cars on the never never, knowing they ain’t as rich as all those people driving shiny cars also living on their estate.

    I suspect they are all living lives of quiet desperation.

    .

    Though the quiet desperation seems to have had the volume turned up.
    The collapse of tribal party loyalty is a two way street. For years, it was “vote for us, you have no choice, these are the policies we will give you”.

    The desperate chasing of popularity via focus group just made it worse.

    For a large chunk of the country, it’s try a new provider under one works.

    There is a grim amusement to see some here, who used to decry unthinking tribal loyalty, now faced with the results.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 6,226
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Is there some significant psychological barrier crossed when the Tories come fifth? Surely fourth would be bad enough

    Anyway I love these polls. A plague on both their houses

    Yes, right now some Tories have been able to argue that being third in the polls is due to Starmer being rubbish and boosting Reform, but ending up consistently fourth/fifth behind the Greens/Lib Dems will be a barrier crossed.
    I agree, I was just querying that distinction twixt 4th and
    5th

    This feels like a death spiral now, for the Tories. As you say there’s a tipping point when they look terminally irrelevant and any vote for them is wasted. They are horribly close to that point, and it’s not obvious how they reverse the slide. Dumping poor Kemi is necessary - but not sufficient

    Labour have different problems. Unlikely to go extinct but facing a defeat so bad they are out of power for 15 years
    Perhaps.

    I am writing a piece which should go up later on this week which points out based on the MRPs/polls Reform are on course to win the election with a lower vote share/votes than Labour in 2024 (The YouGov MRP had them on 27%) and we saw how unpopular Labour became.

    I reckon within a year of the next election Reform could be in the single digits and we end up with a very left wing party leading the polls such as the Greens.
    That’s the consensus prediction at Knapper’s Gazette, interestingly

    Reform win, fuck it all up, and the NEXT government is far left

    It is quite possible, especially as by then we may need UBI

    We are in a hi-tech rehash of the 1930s
    Taxi driving is about to go the way of the dodo. Waymo has proved it works and Tesla are about to revolutionise building of autonomous vehicles with their new process. I don't know how many people work in car transportation but we should expect it to drop by over 90% in the next decade and for delivery driver pay to crash due to oversupply of qualified drivers.
    Politicians and the media as always are fighting yesterday’s wars. Twelve new towns policy amid a declining birth rate being a good example . Youth migration schemes to fill a perceived labour gap another.

    If you tease out the unemployed that are mislabelled in the universal credit scheme, we are probably already at or around 10% unemployment. Not far into the next decade we should assume that might have risen to 30%, due to automation of the kind you mention. Hard to predict beyond that but predictions of 90% unemployment in or by the decade afterwards, are not incredible.

    I find it increasingly hard to imagine the capitalist system surviving much longer, a socialist society seems an inevitability.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,732
    nico67 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    John Rentoul and friends think Sir Keir will survive to lead Labour into the next election. And be Pam afterwards

    How Keir Starmer could survive and even win the next election: my weekend article for @Independent

    https://x.com/johnrentoul/status/1971931441245110281?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    But Dan Neidle, often accused of being Labour’s tax man, is sinking his teeth into Starmer over his ‘trust’

    When Keir Starmer gave a field to his parents, he used a "life interest trust". This meant that, as its value grew from £20k to £300k, it was outside their inheritance tax estate.

    How did this work? And was it tax avoidance?

    🧵


    https://x.com/danneidle/status/1972201110929568092?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    It would have made no difference anyway as the whole estate including the land meant the kids wouldn’t have paid inheritance tax . The whole story is just trying to find wrong doing when there’s no evidence he tried to avoid any tax and goes down a number of what ifs .
    Why wouldn't they have paid inheritence tax?

    I don't think Dan Neidle is out to get Starmer. He is a Labour member and says he just saw a wrinkle in Starmer's story that he couldn't ignore
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,521

    boulay said:

    Golf. The Racing Post's stick-ball correspondent predicts a comeback for the home team in today's singles, but not enough.

    SPotY. The problem is the BBC's eccentric shortlisting. Good luck to Stocky (fpt) on his Fleetwood bet, but it depends on the BBC looking past Rory McIlroy for the golf slot after his major win (the US Masters) last April brought up his career grand slam – only the sixth golfer to achieve this.

    ETA Ellie Kildunne actually drifted in the SPotY betting after yesterday's World Cup win, in which she scored an (apparently) outstanding first try. I can only imagine that in leaving the car park, she ran over a young orphan taking her poorly kitten to the vet. Or maybe punters started to wonder if she too would be nominated.

    It’s quite sad really the lack of fanfare the English Ladies rugby people are getting compared to the footballers. I think with Ellie Kildunne she was the most recognisable player in the team but now with the final won it might be harder to select one player from a minority sport. They hopefully will get the team award.

    Trouble is, giving the Red Roses the team award hurts Ellie's chances in the main SPotY event. Of course, now the Ryder Cup golfers might get the team award which puts Ellie back in play at around 20/1. It is a bit of a shame that both happen on the same weekend.
    I wonder if, should Lando win the F1 championship, he will leap into favourite space as season finishes nearer the SPOTY date.
  • Oh FFS. MAGA-style red baseball caps (and not even very good ones). What's the Venn diagram for Trump & Labour support, do they suppose?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,377

    Barnesian said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Is there some significant psychological barrier crossed when the Tories come fifth? Surely fourth would be bad enough

    Anyway I love these polls. A plague on both their houses

    Yes, right now some Tories have been able to argue that being third in the polls is due to Starmer being rubbish and boosting Reform, but ending up consistently fourth/fifth behind the Greens/Lib Dems will be a barrier crossed.
    And people don't like to be seen backing a loser.
    Yup, we'll end up with a donors' strike, that'll end Kemi's leadership.

    I am almost regretting vote for her.

    A fie on the parliamentary Tory Party for giving me a choice between Badenoch and Jenrick.
    Just disband the party. It’s over. Nothing is forever. Soft dads like you can join the LDs - and improve their offering - and harder types can join Reform, giving them gravitas

    Win win

    The next election should ideally be LDs versus Reform. That would be a good clear choice for the people. The two big parties need to go extinct now
    I could never join a party that supports the WASPI women.

    The fact that Wera Hobhouse hasn't been expelled for pushing 5G conspiracy theories is another black mark.
    Yeh but. No party is spotless. That's just an excuse.

    You're like Rory, struggling to overcome a deep suspicion of the LDs, not recognising that you're fighting an attraction. You need to come out as an LD. You'll be welcomed, as will Rory.
    This argument is false. Just because I wouldn't vote for one set of loons doesn't mean I shold vote for another set because they are slightly less loony - or actually just as loony but in a different way.

    I will continue to do what I have done at almost every GE. I will study and if possible talk to the candidates standing in my constituency, expecially the independents and will then either vote for an independent or will spoil my ballot. I will not vote for any candidate backed by any of the four (in my area) main parties as that affiliation on their part shows a serious and irredeemable lack of intelligence.
    Fine, do that if you want - it’s a democracy and it’s your vote so it’s your right - but it’s a cop out. We know if we ever got 632 Independents elected, there would be anarchy or they would inevitably coalesce into like-minded groupings - let’s call them parties, perhaps?

    Whether you like it or not, the truth is you can get away with Independently minded types on a parish or small District council but the United Kingdom is a massively complex, multi-layered nuanced geographical and historical construct of nearly 70 million people. Governing it is far from simple or straightforward and I’d argue the complexity of the modern world has further increased that difficulty to the extent one ideology, however coherent, won’t do the job any longer.

    My personal view is post-industrial post-work western societies are almost ungovernable and certainly not by groupings whose ideological roots are in the 19th and 20th centuries if not earlier. New ideologies and doctrines will emerge but they will be unrecognisable from what has been the case hitherto.
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,189
    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    Golf. The Racing Post's stick-ball correspondent predicts a comeback for the home team in today's singles, but not enough.

    SPotY. The problem is the BBC's eccentric shortlisting. Good luck to Stocky (fpt) on his Fleetwood bet, but it depends on the BBC looking past Rory McIlroy for the golf slot after his major win (the US Masters) last April brought up his career grand slam – only the sixth golfer to achieve this.

    ETA Ellie Kildunne actually drifted in the SPotY betting after yesterday's World Cup win, in which she scored an (apparently) outstanding first try. I can only imagine that in leaving the car park, she ran over a young orphan taking her poorly kitten to the vet. Or maybe punters started to wonder if she too would be nominated.

    It’s quite sad really the lack of fanfare the English Ladies rugby people are getting compared to the footballers. I think with Ellie Kildunne she was the most recognisable player in the team but now with the final won it might be harder to select one player from a minority sport. They hopefully will get the team award.

    Trouble is, giving the Red Roses the team award hurts Ellie's chances in the main SPotY event. Of course, now the Ryder Cup golfers might get the team award which puts Ellie back in play at around 20/1. It is a bit of a shame that both happen on the same weekend.
    I wonder if, should Lando win the F1 championship, he will leap into favourite space as season finishes nearer the SPOTY date.
    Luke Littler should win it
  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,700
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Is there some significant psychological barrier crossed when the Tories come fifth? Surely fourth would be bad enough

    Anyway I love these polls. A plague on both their houses

    Yes, right now some Tories have been able to argue that being third in the polls is due to Starmer being rubbish and boosting Reform, but ending up consistently fourth/fifth behind the Greens/Lib Dems will be a barrier crossed.
    I agree, I was just querying that distinction twixt 4th and
    5th

    This feels like a death spiral now, for the Tories. As you say there’s a tipping point when they look terminally irrelevant and any vote for them is wasted. They are horribly close to that point, and it’s not obvious how they reverse the slide. Dumping poor Kemi is necessary - but not sufficient

    Labour have different problems. Unlikely to go extinct but facing a defeat so bad they are out of power for 15 years
    Perhaps.

    I am writing a piece which should go up later on this week which points out based on the MRPs/polls Reform are on course to win the election with a lower vote share/votes than Labour in 2024 (The YouGov MRP had them on 27%) and we saw how unpopular Labour became.

    I reckon within a year of the next election Reform could be in the single digits and we end up with a very left wing party leading the polls such as the Greens.
    That’s the consensus prediction at Knapper’s Gazette, interestingly

    Reform win, fuck it all up, and the NEXT government is far left

    It is quite possible, especially as by then we may need UBI

    We are in a hi-tech rehash of the 1930s
    Taxi driving is about to go the way of the dodo. Waymo has proved it works and Tesla are about to revolutionise building of autonomous vehicles with their new process. I don't know how many people work in car transportation but we should expect it to drop by over 90% in the next decade and for delivery driver pay to crash due to oversupply of qualified drivers.
    Tens of millions will be unemployed within the next 5-10 years, maybe sooner, and maybe more
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,506
    Can I have a "Conserve, baby, conserve" hat instead?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,443
    isam said:

    nico67 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    John Rentoul and friends think Sir Keir will survive to lead Labour into the next election. And be Pam afterwards

    How Keir Starmer could survive and even win the next election: my weekend article for @Independent

    https://x.com/johnrentoul/status/1971931441245110281?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    But Dan Neidle, often accused of being Labour’s tax man, is sinking his teeth into Starmer over his ‘trust’

    When Keir Starmer gave a field to his parents, he used a "life interest trust". This meant that, as its value grew from £20k to £300k, it was outside their inheritance tax estate.

    How did this work? And was it tax avoidance?

    🧵


    https://x.com/danneidle/status/1972201110929568092?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    It would have made no difference anyway as the whole estate including the land meant the kids wouldn’t have paid inheritance tax . The whole story is just trying to find wrong doing when there’s no evidence he tried to avoid any tax and goes down a number of what ifs .
    Why wouldn't they have paid inheritence tax?

    I don't think Dan Neidle is out to get Starmer. He is a Labour member and says he just saw a wrinkle in Starmer's story that he couldn't ignore
    Because there’s an exemption for children upto a certain amount which was above the total value of the estate including the land if it had been part of that . Starmer paid capital gains tax on the land when he sold it .
  • TimSTimS Posts: 16,214
    edited September 28
    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Is there some significant psychological barrier crossed when the Tories come fifth? Surely fourth would be bad enough

    Anyway I love these polls. A plague on both their houses

    Yes, right now some Tories have been able to argue that being third in the polls is due to Starmer being rubbish and boosting Reform, but ending up consistently fourth/fifth behind the Greens/Lib Dems will be a barrier crossed.
    And people don't like to be seen backing a loser.
    Yup, we'll end up with a donors' strike, that'll end Kemi's leadership.

    I am almost regretting vote for her.

    A fie on the parliamentary Tory Party for giving me a choice between Badenoch and Jenrick.
    Just disband the party. It’s over. Nothing is forever. Soft dads like you can join the LDs - and improve their offering - and harder types can join Reform, giving them gravitas

    Win win

    The next election should ideally be LDs versus Reform. That would be a good clear choice for the people. The two big parties need to go extinct now
    The Ultras said the same. And kept the Tories from power for a generation. But ultimately society moved on and the voters realised that tariffs on corn were not a good thing and the Ultras disappeared.

    A moderate right of centre party is a good thing. The Tories are not delivering at the moment and seem irrelevant in the face of the howling bot-amplified screams from Reform. But ultimately they will be back.
    These are not moderate times. I’m not sure moderate times will ever return

    And now I must drink coffee and do some work on this grey cool Sunday. Later
    You may be right. Moderation requires a population who believe that happiness consists in right expectations + the belief that a moral political order can protect, defend and sustain them. This also requires a political order that can produce reasonably honest manifestos at elections. This is a little way off, though we may get there once all else has been tried.

    IMHO the largest problem in the way of this is not the future but the past. Older voters (I am 70) have two perceptions about the past. Firstly that it was, on the whole, a happier place for young people, and secondly that the accumulated baggage of the world on the 21st century (Twin Towers, Iraq, GFC, NHS, migration, Brexit etc) mean that any government starts off needing 500 to win with three wickets left because of how the earlier batsmen failed.
    The last analogy is spot on I think. The world - specifically the developed world - has suffered a series of economic and political calamities that any country would struggle to shake off. Those you list, but in particular also the vastly expensive Covid pandemic and the upheaval of the global energy market triggered by Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.

    Alongside the insidious bad news of ageing populations and a changing climate that is itself triggering wars, unrest and migration. And the self-fulfilling prophesy of this all bringing a populist to power in the US who is now upending global trade with his tariff policy.

    So there’s been a middle order batting collapse. It’s one of the reasons I feel the world really needs a few years of calm more than anything else. Each crisis eats away at GDP, productivity and the assets of governments, and in so doing further erodes the foundations of liberal democracy.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,890

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Is there some significant psychological barrier crossed when the Tories come fifth? Surely fourth would be bad enough

    Anyway I love these polls. A plague on both their houses

    Yes, right now some Tories have been able to argue that being third in the polls is due to Starmer being rubbish and boosting Reform, but ending up consistently fourth/fifth behind the Greens/Lib Dems will be a barrier crossed.
    And people don't like to be seen backing a loser.
    Yup, we'll end up with a donors' strike, that'll end Kemi's leadership.

    I am almost regretting vote for her.

    A fie on the parliamentary Tory Party for giving me a choice between Badenoch and Jenrick.
    Just disband the party. It’s over. Nothing is forever. Soft dads like you can join the LDs - and improve their offering - and harder types can join Reform, giving them gravitas

    Win win

    The next election should ideally be LDs versus Reform. That would be a good clear choice for the people. The two big parties need to go extinct now
    I could never join a party that supports the WASPI women.

    The fact that Wera Hobhouse hasn't been expelled for pushing 5G conspiracy theories is another black mark.
    Only she wasn't pushing 5g conspiracy theories at all. She supported the local party and people in their opposition to the mast due to it being in an AONB. You are just parroting a distorted view of the council meeting from a local newspaper reporter.
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,189
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Is there some significant psychological barrier crossed when the Tories come fifth? Surely fourth would be bad enough

    Anyway I love these polls. A plague on both their houses

    Yes, right now some Tories have been able to argue that being third in the polls is due to Starmer being rubbish and boosting Reform, but ending up consistently fourth/fifth behind the Greens/Lib Dems will be a barrier crossed.
    I agree, I was just querying that distinction twixt 4th and
    5th

    This feels like a death spiral now, for the Tories. As you say there’s a tipping point when they look terminally irrelevant and any vote for them is wasted. They are horribly close to that point, and it’s not obvious how they reverse the slide. Dumping poor Kemi is necessary - but not sufficient

    Labour have different problems. Unlikely to go extinct but facing a defeat so bad they are out of power for 15 years
    Perhaps.

    I am writing a piece which should go up later on this week which points out based on the MRPs/polls Reform are on course to win the election with a lower vote share/votes than Labour in 2024 (The YouGov MRP had them on 27%) and we saw how unpopular Labour became.

    I reckon within a year of the next election Reform could be in the single digits and we end up with a very left wing party leading the polls such as the Greens.
    That’s the consensus prediction at Knapper’s Gazette, interestingly

    Reform win, fuck it all up, and the NEXT government is far left

    It is quite possible, especially as by then we may need UBI

    We are in a hi-tech rehash of the 1930s
    Taxi driving is about to go the way of the dodo. Waymo has proved it works and Tesla are about to revolutionise building of autonomous vehicles with their new process. I don't know how many people work in car transportation but we should expect it to drop by over 90% in the next decade and for delivery driver pay to crash due to oversupply of qualified drivers.
    Tens of millions will be unemployed within the next 5-10 years, maybe sooner, and maybe more
    And all those taxes are lost too. We need to be thinking and training for the jobs of the future now.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,792
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    John Rentoul and friends think Sir Keir will survive to lead Labour into the next election. And be Pam afterwards

    How Keir Starmer could survive and even win the next election: my weekend article for @Independent

    https://x.com/johnrentoul/status/1971931441245110281?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    But Dan Neidle, often accused of being Labour’s tax man, is sinking his teeth into Starmer over his ‘trust’

    When Keir Starmer gave a field to his parents, he used a "life interest trust". This meant that, as its value grew from £20k to £300k, it was outside their inheritance tax estate.

    How did this work? And was it tax avoidance?

    🧵


    https://x.com/danneidle/status/1972201110929568092?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
    How did its value grow from £20k to £300k ?
    I think he bought it in 1996 and sold it around 2018. To be fair, reading the thread, Neidle hints at skullduggery but seems to come to the conclusion that all is above board, other than Sir Keir flip flopping on whether it was a trust or not. Usual stuff really, he probably did something against the spirit of the rules, but technically he can say he obeyed the law
    Repeating myself, he was very clear on Laura K this morning that there wasn't a trust involved; it was simply a gift to his parents.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,700
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Roger said:

    For those broadly on the left things aren't looking too bad. Kemi has chosen to stay in lockstep with Reform which leaves the centre a big beautiful gaping hole with plenty of attractive options depending on constituency. The only certainty at the moment is that Reform can't win. 30% won't do it when for the 70% they are the worst possible option.

    I'm slightly confident about Starmer raising his game. He's quite a fast learner and by now he will realise that chasing populism is a fools errand. He's smart enough to know that people want authenticity and now he's tried the rest that should be next on his list. I saw an early interview with him and there's definitely something there.

    Ok that’s it. This is a self parody. And a rather good one

    I like to think of your chuckling over your crème de menthe frappe in sunny Villefranche as you typed out that ludicrously Roger-esque bilge, perfectly replete with imbecile non-facts and absurd non sequiturs
    Leon said:

    Roger said:

    For those broadly on the left things aren't looking too bad. Kemi has chosen to stay in lockstep with Reform which leaves the centre a big beautiful gaping hole with plenty of attractive options depending on constituency. The only certainty at the moment is that Reform can't win. 30% won't do it when for the 70% they are the worst possible option.

    I'm slightly confident about Starmer raising his game. He's quite a fast learner and by now he will realise that chasing populism is a fools errand. He's smart enough to know that people want authenticity and now he's tried the rest that should be next on his list. I saw an early interview with him and there's definitely something there.

    Ok that’s it. This is a self parody. And a rather good one

    I like to think of your chuckling over your crème de menthe frappe in sunny Villefranche as you typed out that ludicrously Roger-esque bilge, perfectly replete with imbecile non-facts and absurd non sequiturs
    I’m in Villefranche-sur-Mer at the moment and it’s most sunny
    Le Photo, bitte schone!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 34,663
    Andy_JS said:

    Maybe if the media called out genuine Farage bullshit the Tories would be a bit higher up the charts.

    Absolutely nothing on the BBC about his tacit approval of Trump's paracetamol-autism link, eating swans, and no calling out Trump's Sharia law in London claim. No analysis of Farage and the NHS. Couching his casual racism as normal, no wonder he's riding high.

    And Nathan Gill? Zip, nada, nothing ( except on here). Imagine if a Tory or Labour MEP had pleaded guilty to shilling for Putin.

    Call Reform and Farage out. Call out Dubai's own Richard Tice. Tell it like it is and the Tories claw back some support. Instead they probably replace Kemi with Jenrick who is Farage heavy and has a back story of a very dodgy donation from a Pornographer and donor. Call him out too. If he's your man, you deserve the oblivion you probably won't then get.

    Come on Tories, come on Kemi. Reform is your foe, fight them on the beaches of Clacton, Frinton and Great Yarmouth. They are on your manor.

    This Spectator writer seems to disagree about swans.

    "Laurie Wastell
    Nigel Farage has a point about migrants eating swans
    26 September 2025" (£)

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/nigel-farage-has-a-point-about-migrants-eating-swans/
    You have been justifying the swans claim since Farage mentioned it last week. The evidence you, and the Spectator cite is from circa 2013 and much of it anecdotal.

    It is Trumpian "they are eating the cats and dogs" rhetoric. Farage is a low rent Trump.

    It is not relevant. It is a crock...
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 32,781
    Roger said:

    For those broadly on the left things aren't looking too bad. Kemi has chosen to stay in lockstep with Reform which leaves the centre a big beautiful gaping hole with plenty of attractive options depending on constituency. The only certainty at the moment is that Reform can't win. 30% won't do it when for the 70% they are the worst possible option.

    I'm slightly confident about Starmer raising his game. He's quite a fast learner and by now he will realise that chasing populism is a fools errand. He's smart enough to know that people want authenticity and now he's tried the rest that should be next on his list. I saw an early interview with him and there's definitely something there.

    :lol:
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