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Andy Burnham’s passed from rising hope to Liz Truss without any intervening period whatsoever

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  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,496
    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    That gilt chart has F all to do with Andy Burnham but for anyone paying attention it is terrifying. We are very, very close to the point when Wile E Coyote looks down and discovers that he has in fact run out of land. I will be amazed and relieved if we get to the end of this year without a major crisis in the Bond market. A bad response to the budget and all hell will break loose.

    Last time I looked, we were simply tracking the US, which has a rather larger problem
    The US is undoubtedly influential on our gilt rates but we are at the top of their ranges despite having a boring, inept, incompetent prat in charge rather than a raging. psychopathic kleptomaniac. This is troubling.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,403

    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Great Britain is now the most dysfunctional country in the western world

    Discuss

    In many ways it has a distinct resemblance to the old USSR in about 1978

    In the western world? We're middling on most measures; on things like HDI, happiness etc we're only bested by the Nordics, Australia etc.
    I cannot think of a significant western nation which is worse run than Britain. Italy used to be our escape clause - "at least we're not as bad as Italy" - but they now have a stable government compared to ours, a more sensible foreign policy. and they have just taken over us by GDP in PPP

    Greece, perhaps? But their economy is now doing notably better than ours

    A rum do
    'UK records second biggest population jump in 75 years'

    must be doing something right
    I note the figures are to June 2024, so not from this government but rather the previous one.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cm2djl9jem7o
    Wasn't that down to Boris's fecundity?
    Only 2 % was births, so about 15 000. You are probably correct.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,521
    As usual Marina Hyde cuts through the BS with wit, nice comparison between Burnham’s egocentric manoeuvrings and Boris.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/sep/26/king-of-the-north-andy-burnham-liverpool-tory-conferences
  • boulay said:

    Without wanting to sound like some Covid crank has anyone else suffered from infinitely more cold type viruses since Covid ? I never had the flu before until last Christmas and have had several non Covid viruses since. The more rational side of me blames it on being five years older but I haven’t had a change of lifestyle since Covid, if anything more exercise, less boozing and gave up smoking. But never had so many bad colds in my life.

    The smoking kept people with bugs out of range. It's why the French eat garlic.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 4,179
    It's hard to get interested in "digital ID" cards.

    Like most stuff in this term, Labour will have made a big announcement with an idea but little concrete detail, half the party will revolt, the thing will be watered down, it'll get stuck for years in consultation/legislation alone, even if it gets actually approved the IT system will be years late, billions overbudget, not fit for purpose anyway and hacked at the first opportunity, and the proposing government will end up getting royally booted out long before the thing ever actually goes properly live,

    The only thing SKS still has to do is piss off more people by saying yes its compulsory AND it'll cost you 250 quid whether you have a passport and driving licence or not, and then backtrack on the whole thing and cancel it just so that the unpopularity stops tanking even further.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,681

    Andy_JS said:

    Very strong support..

    @YouGov
    SNAP POLL/ From what you have seen or heard, do you support or oppose the proposal to introduce a digital ID card system in Britain?

    Support: 42%
    Oppose: 45%

    By 2024 vote
    Lab: 51% support / 35% oppose
    Con: 50% / 44%
    Lib Dem: 49% / 39%
    Reform: 22% / 69%

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1971600117544194105

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2025/09/26/aaac5/1?utm_source=daily_question&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=daily/2025/09/26_question_1

    42% isn't very strong. It's lower than I was expecting.
    We were told yesterday that "The thing is ID cards are very popular with the public"
    Isn’t this what we have been asking for though? Blair and Brown wanted immigration because they believed limitless immigration meant limitless growth. At exactly the same time the reason Migrants hell bent on UK, is becuase we have let them know for decades - get here and you will get work on our black market - we have made it clear to the world we never clamp down in our black market, and that’s paved every illegal economic migrants path here, with gold.
    What have I got wrong?
    That Blair and Brian haven't been running things for a decade and a half and immigration increased considerably after their time ?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,826
    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    That gilt chart has F all to do with Andy Burnham but for anyone paying attention it is terrifying. We are very, very close to the point when Wile E Coyote looks down and discovers that he has in fact run out of land. I will be amazed and relieved if we get to the end of this year without a major crisis in the Bond market. A bad response to the budget and all hell will break loose.

    Last time I looked, we were simply tracking the US, which has a rather larger problem
    The US is undoubtedly influential on our gilt rates but we are at the top of their ranges despite having a boring, inept, incompetent prat in charge rather than a raging. psychopathic kleptomaniac. This is troubling.
    We have a central bank selling gilts much faster than US i.e. quantitative tightening.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 14,513
    DavidL said:

    That gilt chart has F all to do with Andy Burnham but for anyone paying attention it is terrifying. We are very, very close to the point when Wile E Coyote looks down and discovers that he has in fact run out of land. I will be amazed and relieved if we get to the end of this year without a major crisis in the Bond market. A bad response to the budget and all hell will break loose.

    “That gilt chart has F all to do with Andy Burnham”

    The FT seems to feel it’s just the fact Burnham is still in the Labour Party a heart beat away from being Prime Minister, is spooking the market and all of us losing money thanks to it.

    If Burnham was literally thrown into a volcano, the markets would move to the better. That’s the science of economics and bond markets, isn’t it?


  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,521
    edited September 26

    DavidL said:

    That gilt chart has F all to do with Andy Burnham but for anyone paying attention it is terrifying. We are very, very close to the point when Wile E Coyote looks down and discovers that he has in fact run out of land. I will be amazed and relieved if we get to the end of this year without a major crisis in the Bond market. A bad response to the budget and all hell will break loose.

    “That gilt chart has F all to do with Andy Burnham”

    The FT seems to feel it’s just the fact Burnham is still in the Labour Party a heart beat away from being Prime Minister, is spooking the market and all of us losing money thanks to it.

    If Burnham was literally thrown into a volcano, the markets would move to the better. That’s the science of economics and bond markets, isn’t it?


    Shares in Mascara manufacturers will drop like a stone however.

    At least if he were to become PM and Vance POTUS we would have the Zoolanderesque joy of a big guy-liner face off between them.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,681
    boulay said:

    Foxy said:

    boulay said:

    Without wanting to sound like some Covid crank has anyone else suffered from infinitely more cold type viruses since Covid ? I never had the flu before until last Christmas and have had several non Covid viruses since. The more rational side of me blames it on being five years older but I haven’t had a change of lifestyle since Covid, if anything more exercise, less boozing and gave up smoking. But never had so many bad colds in my life.

    Quite a bit of covid around again recently. I know no one bothers to test any more but Mrs Foxy and a few at work have had the typical symptoms including the cardiac dysrhythmias.
    I’ve tested a few times each time and all negative so unless the tests aren’t useful for new strains I don’t believe it’s been Covid in my cases.
    Yes, there's lots of Covid and lots of not-Covid around according to my anecdotage, too.

    I've been coughing up crap for the last couple of days (and I don't mean my usual posts).
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,844
    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Very strong support..

    @YouGov
    SNAP POLL/ From what you have seen or heard, do you support or oppose the proposal to introduce a digital ID card system in Britain?

    Support: 42%
    Oppose: 45%

    By 2024 vote
    Lab: 51% support / 35% oppose
    Con: 50% / 44%
    Lib Dem: 49% / 39%
    Reform: 22% / 69%

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1971600117544194105

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2025/09/26/aaac5/1?utm_source=daily_question&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=daily/2025/09/26_question_1

    42% isn't very strong. It's lower than I was expecting.
    We were told yesterday that "The thing is ID cards are very popular with the public"
    Isn’t this what we have been asking for though? Blair and Brown wanted immigration because they believed limitless immigration meant limitless growth. At exactly the same time the reason Migrants hell bent on UK, is becuase we have let them know for decades - get here and you will get work on our black market - we have made it clear to the world we never clamp down in our black market, and that’s paved every illegal economic migrants path here, with gold.
    What have I got wrong?
    That Blair and Brian haven't been running things for a decade and a half and immigration increased considerably after their time ?
    The important bit of that was the bit about the black market, but you didn't address it.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 40,367
    Remember when Elon Musk said Donny was in the Epstein files?

    How did he know?

    Is it perhaps because Elon is in the files?

    https://bsky.app/profile/esqueer.net/post/3lzqvuhntws22
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 40,367
    @bradheath.bsky.social‬

    As of this afternoon, not a single career DOJ attorney has entered an appearance in the case against former FBI Director James Comey. Only the newly-appointed U.S. attorney is listed. That's extremely unusual.

    https://bsky.app/profile/bradheath.bsky.social/post/3lzqzoaibkc2l
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,782
    edited September 26
    Scott_xP said:

    Remember when Elon Musk said Donny was in the Epstein files?

    How did he know?

    Is it perhaps because Elon is in the files?

    https://bsky.app/profile/esqueer.net/post/3lzqvuhntws22

    Our favourite chap is in there back yet again, too.

    "Another schedule notes a planned lunch with tech billionaire Peter Thiel on Nov. 27, 2017.:"
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,521
    Scott_xP said:

    Remember when Elon Musk said Donny was in the Epstein files?

    How did he know?

    Is it perhaps because Elon is in the files?

    https://bsky.app/profile/esqueer.net/post/3lzqvuhntws22

    Wasn’t it because his doge monkeys had downloaded the files and given them to him? How would being in them give him any special knowledge of who else was in them? He might well be in them but to know who else is he would likely have seen, although it’s not hard to make educated guesses about who might be.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,681
    Andy_JS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Very strong support..

    @YouGov
    SNAP POLL/ From what you have seen or heard, do you support or oppose the proposal to introduce a digital ID card system in Britain?

    Support: 42%
    Oppose: 45%

    By 2024 vote
    Lab: 51% support / 35% oppose
    Con: 50% / 44%
    Lib Dem: 49% / 39%
    Reform: 22% / 69%

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1971600117544194105

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2025/09/26/aaac5/1?utm_source=daily_question&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=daily/2025/09/26_question_1

    42% isn't very strong. It's lower than I was expecting.
    We were told yesterday that "The thing is ID cards are very popular with the public"
    Isn’t this what we have been asking for though? Blair and Brown wanted immigration because they believed limitless immigration meant limitless growth. At exactly the same time the reason Migrants hell bent on UK, is becuase we have let them know for decades - get here and you will get work on our black market - we have made it clear to the world we never clamp down in our black market, and that’s paved every illegal economic migrants path here, with gold.
    What have I got wrong?
    That Blair and Brian haven't been running things for a decade and a half and immigration increased considerably after their time ?
    The important bit of that was the bit about the black market, but you didn't address it.
    Neither did the last decade and a half of Blair/Brown's successors.
    Which was my point.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,164
    edited September 26
    On topic, Burnhams intervention seemed very misjudged and so it has proven.

    Although I am sure Labour MPs are getting very nervous and angry behind the scenes right now, it will take a fair bit yet for them to move them into open revolt against the leadership. Firstly it isn’t really the Labour way to mount successful putsches. Secondly, it’s still only 15 months into a parliament. Time will concentrate minds as it goes on, but it does seem very early for them to try and overthrow a leader, even a dud like Starmer.

    Burnham could’ve gotten away with a nudge-nudge, “if the ball came out of the back of the scrum” interview like Boris came out with when he was London mayor. But he didn’t do that. He basically said the party wanted to replace Starmer and he set out his sodding manifesto, line by line. This is a man with no parliamentary seat, no obvious way back, with no vacancy at the top. What did he think was going to happen?

    It was strategically stupid, disloyal and harmful to his chances. Despite all this, he might in time still manage to be the successor, given the weird King in the North persona he’s managed to build. But this hasn’t helped his chances one bit in the short to medium term. Most badly judged Daily Telegraph interview since the Kaiser.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,496

    DavidL said:

    That gilt chart has F all to do with Andy Burnham but for anyone paying attention it is terrifying. We are very, very close to the point when Wile E Coyote looks down and discovers that he has in fact run out of land. I will be amazed and relieved if we get to the end of this year without a major crisis in the Bond market. A bad response to the budget and all hell will break loose.

    “That gilt chart has F all to do with Andy Burnham”

    The FT seems to feel it’s just the fact Burnham is still in the Labour Party a heart beat away from being Prime Minister, is spooking the market and all of us losing money thanks to it.

    If Burnham was literally thrown into a volcano, the markets would move to the better. That’s the science of economics and bond markets, isn’t it?


    Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with throwing Burnham into a volcano. I just think our gilt problems are far more deep rooted than that.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,521
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    That gilt chart has F all to do with Andy Burnham but for anyone paying attention it is terrifying. We are very, very close to the point when Wile E Coyote looks down and discovers that he has in fact run out of land. I will be amazed and relieved if we get to the end of this year without a major crisis in the Bond market. A bad response to the budget and all hell will break loose.

    “That gilt chart has F all to do with Andy Burnham”

    The FT seems to feel it’s just the fact Burnham is still in the Labour Party a heart beat away from being Prime Minister, is spooking the market and all of us losing money thanks to it.

    If Burnham was literally thrown into a volcano, the markets would move to the better. That’s the science of economics and bond markets, isn’t it?


    Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with throwing Burnham into a volcano. I just think our gilt problems are far more deep rooted than that.
    There’s only one way to find out…
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,298
    AnthonyT said:

    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Very strong support..

    @YouGov
    SNAP POLL/ From what you have seen or heard, do you support or oppose the proposal to introduce a digital ID card system in Britain?

    Support: 42%
    Oppose: 45%

    By 2024 vote
    Lab: 51% support / 35% oppose
    Con: 50% / 44%
    Lib Dem: 49% / 39%
    Reform: 22% / 69%

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1971600117544194105

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2025/09/26/aaac5/1?utm_source=daily_question&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=daily/2025/09/26_question_1

    42% isn't very strong. It's lower than I was expecting.
    We were told yesterday that "The thing is ID cards are very popular with the public"

    Andy_JS said:

    Very strong support..

    @YouGov
    SNAP POLL/ From what you have seen or heard, do you support or oppose the proposal to introduce a digital ID card system in Britain?

    Support: 42%
    Oppose: 45%

    By 2024 vote
    Lab: 51% support / 35% oppose
    Con: 50% / 44%
    Lib Dem: 49% / 39%
    Reform: 22% / 69%

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1971600117544194105

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2025/09/26/aaac5/1?utm_source=daily_question&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=daily/2025/09/26_question_1

    42% isn't very strong. It's lower than I was expecting.
    We were told yesterday that "The thing is ID cards are very popular with the public"
    I suspected this would happen . Polling hypothetical scenarios often leads to big changes once a policy is announced. This wasn’t helped by another major fail of the No 10 comms team .
    I am getting the feeling this wasn’t sufficiently stress tested/focus grouped. Indeed, I’m not even sure if it was. I think Mahmood and Starmer were desperate for some “tough on border security” announcements and signed up to whatever some Home Office mandarin put in front of them.
    Starmer should have held a proper news conference. And they should have released detailed plans and how those without smartphones would get the ID . The policy should have clearly stated that the primary role was for work and people wouldn’t be forced to use it to access services .
    He should have announced a consultation on this to the House of Commons. He has no electoral mandate for a policy which was not in the manifesto.
    Surely he can pass any legislation he can get through parliament.

    The ID cards certainly should be usable to access services. Otherwise there is no point.
  • Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Very strong support..

    @YouGov
    SNAP POLL/ From what you have seen or heard, do you support or oppose the proposal to introduce a digital ID card system in Britain?

    Support: 42%
    Oppose: 45%

    By 2024 vote
    Lab: 51% support / 35% oppose
    Con: 50% / 44%
    Lib Dem: 49% / 39%
    Reform: 22% / 69%

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1971600117544194105

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2025/09/26/aaac5/1?utm_source=daily_question&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=daily/2025/09/26_question_1

    42% isn't very strong. It's lower than I was expecting.
    We were told yesterday that "The thing is ID cards are very popular with the public"
    Isn’t this what we have been asking for though? Blair and Brown wanted immigration because they believed limitless immigration meant limitless growth. At exactly the same time the reason Migrants hell bent on UK, is becuase we have let them know for decades - get here and you will get work on our black market - we have made it clear to the world we never clamp down in our black market, and that’s paved every illegal economic migrants path here, with gold.
    What have I got wrong?
    That Blair and Brian haven't been running things for a decade and a half and immigration increased considerably after their time ?
    Net migration in 1997 was 48,000 a year. It trebled to 140,000 a year in 1998, rising to 200,000 a year by 2000. There was another increase in 2004 and for the rest of Blair and Brown's premierships it was around 270,000 a year.

    So net migration increased significantly in their time as well, being around 5 times higher in 2010 than it was in 1997.

    I say this only to correct your assertion, not because I think it is a bad thing.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,844
    "Laurie Wastell
    Nigel Farage has a point about migrants eating swans" (£)

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/nigel-farage-has-a-point-about-migrants-eating-swans/
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 34,671
    Foxy said:

    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Great Britain is now the most dysfunctional country in the western world

    Discuss

    In many ways it has a distinct resemblance to the old USSR in about 1978

    In the western world? We're middling on most measures; on things like HDI, happiness etc we're only bested by the Nordics, Australia etc.
    I cannot think of a significant western nation which is worse run than Britain. Italy used to be our escape clause - "at least we're not as bad as Italy" - but they now have a stable government compared to ours, a more sensible foreign policy. and they have just taken over us by GDP in PPP

    Greece, perhaps? But their economy is now doing notably better than ours

    A rum do
    'UK records second biggest population jump in 75 years'

    must be doing something right
    I note the figures are to June 2024, so not from this government but rather the previous one.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cm2djl9jem7o
    The media narrative today has very much been "the Government" is responsible for the largest single uptick in immigration. Which I guess is both true and misleading.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 68,227

    AnthonyT said:

    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Very strong support..

    @YouGov
    SNAP POLL/ From what you have seen or heard, do you support or oppose the proposal to introduce a digital ID card system in Britain?

    Support: 42%
    Oppose: 45%

    By 2024 vote
    Lab: 51% support / 35% oppose
    Con: 50% / 44%
    Lib Dem: 49% / 39%
    Reform: 22% / 69%

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1971600117544194105

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2025/09/26/aaac5/1?utm_source=daily_question&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=daily/2025/09/26_question_1

    42% isn't very strong. It's lower than I was expecting.
    We were told yesterday that "The thing is ID cards are very popular with the public"

    Andy_JS said:

    Very strong support..

    @YouGov
    SNAP POLL/ From what you have seen or heard, do you support or oppose the proposal to introduce a digital ID card system in Britain?

    Support: 42%
    Oppose: 45%

    By 2024 vote
    Lab: 51% support / 35% oppose
    Con: 50% / 44%
    Lib Dem: 49% / 39%
    Reform: 22% / 69%

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1971600117544194105

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2025/09/26/aaac5/1?utm_source=daily_question&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=daily/2025/09/26_question_1

    42% isn't very strong. It's lower than I was expecting.
    We were told yesterday that "The thing is ID cards are very popular with the public"
    I suspected this would happen . Polling hypothetical scenarios often leads to big changes once a policy is announced. This wasn’t helped by another major fail of the No 10 comms team .
    I am getting the feeling this wasn’t sufficiently stress tested/focus grouped. Indeed, I’m not even sure if it was. I think Mahmood and Starmer were desperate for some “tough on border security” announcements and signed up to whatever some Home Office mandarin put in front of them.
    Starmer should have held a proper news conference. And they should have released detailed plans and how those without smartphones would get the ID . The policy should have clearly stated that the primary role was for work and people wouldn’t be forced to use it to access services .
    He should have announced a consultation on this to the House of Commons. He has no electoral mandate for a policy which was not in the manifesto.
    Surely he can pass any legislation he can get through parliament.

    The ID cards certainly should be usable to access services. Otherwise there is no point.
    None of this is going to happen.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,844
    IanB2 said:

    Petition now up to 1.2 million, still running at more than 1,000 signups per minute

    Now 1.3 million.
  • DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Great Britain is now the most dysfunctional country in the western world

    Discuss

    In many ways it has a distinct resemblance to the old USSR in about 1978

    In the western world? We're middling on most measures; on things like HDI, happiness etc we're only bested by the Nordics, Australia etc.
    I cannot think of a significant western nation which is worse run than Britain. Italy used to be our escape clause - "at least we're not as bad as Italy" - but they now have a stable government compared to ours, a more sensible foreign policy. and they have just taken over us by GDP in PPP

    Greece, perhaps? But their economy is now doing notably better than ours

    A rum do
    'UK records second biggest population jump in 75 years'

    must be doing something right
    It’s called Open Borders. And people aren’t flocking here from Switzerland or Australia
    Around 100,000 Australians live in the UK. Many more are here on short term visas for study or work or travel.
    Can any of them play cricket?
    You thinking of fast tracking them for British Nationality if they will play in the Ashes for us? Sound plan I think. ;)
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 34,671
    boulay said:

    Very strong support..

    @YouGov
    SNAP POLL/ From what you have seen or heard, do you support or oppose the proposal to introduce a digital ID card system in Britain?

    Support: 42%
    Oppose: 45%

    By 2024 vote
    Lab: 51% support / 35% oppose
    Con: 50% / 44%
    Lib Dem: 49% / 39%
    Reform: 22% / 69%

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1971600117544194105

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2025/09/26/aaac5/1?utm_source=daily_question&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=daily/2025/09/26_question_1

    Starmer isn’t getting majority support for a policy on day one, that has shown high levels of hypothetical support previously.

    I think he has entered the “everything he touches turns to sh*t” stage of his premiership.
    He was such a pompous arrogant jackass whilst LotO that it’s especially delicious that it’s happened so quickly.

    Was he horrid to nice Sir Boris?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,901

    AnthonyT said:

    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Very strong support..

    @YouGov
    SNAP POLL/ From what you have seen or heard, do you support or oppose the proposal to introduce a digital ID card system in Britain?

    Support: 42%
    Oppose: 45%

    By 2024 vote
    Lab: 51% support / 35% oppose
    Con: 50% / 44%
    Lib Dem: 49% / 39%
    Reform: 22% / 69%

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1971600117544194105

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2025/09/26/aaac5/1?utm_source=daily_question&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=daily/2025/09/26_question_1

    42% isn't very strong. It's lower than I was expecting.
    We were told yesterday that "The thing is ID cards are very popular with the public"

    Andy_JS said:

    Very strong support..

    @YouGov
    SNAP POLL/ From what you have seen or heard, do you support or oppose the proposal to introduce a digital ID card system in Britain?

    Support: 42%
    Oppose: 45%

    By 2024 vote
    Lab: 51% support / 35% oppose
    Con: 50% / 44%
    Lib Dem: 49% / 39%
    Reform: 22% / 69%

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1971600117544194105

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2025/09/26/aaac5/1?utm_source=daily_question&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=daily/2025/09/26_question_1

    42% isn't very strong. It's lower than I was expecting.
    We were told yesterday that "The thing is ID cards are very popular with the public"
    I suspected this would happen . Polling hypothetical scenarios often leads to big changes once a policy is announced. This wasn’t helped by another major fail of the No 10 comms team .
    I am getting the feeling this wasn’t sufficiently stress tested/focus grouped. Indeed, I’m not even sure if it was. I think Mahmood and Starmer were desperate for some “tough on border security” announcements and signed up to whatever some Home Office mandarin put in front of them.
    Starmer should have held a proper news conference. And they should have released detailed plans and how those without smartphones would get the ID . The policy should have clearly stated that the primary role was for work and people wouldn’t be forced to use it to access services .
    He should have announced a consultation on this to the House of Commons. He has no electoral mandate for a policy which was not in the manifesto.
    Surely he can pass any legislation he can get through parliament.

    The ID cards certainly should be usable to access services. Otherwise there is no point.
    He can get the legislation through Parliament sure but procurement and implementation? No.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,446
    AnthonyT said:

    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Very strong support..

    @YouGov
    SNAP POLL/ From what you have seen or heard, do you support or oppose the proposal to introduce a digital ID card system in Britain?

    Support: 42%
    Oppose: 45%

    By 2024 vote
    Lab: 51% support / 35% oppose
    Con: 50% / 44%
    Lib Dem: 49% / 39%
    Reform: 22% / 69%

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1971600117544194105

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2025/09/26/aaac5/1?utm_source=daily_question&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=daily/2025/09/26_question_1

    42% isn't very strong. It's lower than I was expecting.
    We were told yesterday that "The thing is ID cards are very popular with the public"

    Andy_JS said:

    Very strong support..

    @YouGov
    SNAP POLL/ From what you have seen or heard, do you support or oppose the proposal to introduce a digital ID card system in Britain?

    Support: 42%
    Oppose: 45%

    By 2024 vote
    Lab: 51% support / 35% oppose
    Con: 50% / 44%
    Lib Dem: 49% / 39%
    Reform: 22% / 69%

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1971600117544194105

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2025/09/26/aaac5/1?utm_source=daily_question&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=daily/2025/09/26_question_1

    42% isn't very strong. It's lower than I was expecting.
    We were told yesterday that "The thing is ID cards are very popular with the public"
    I suspected this would happen . Polling hypothetical scenarios often leads to big changes once a policy is announced. This wasn’t helped by another major fail of the No 10 comms team .
    I am getting the feeling this wasn’t sufficiently stress tested/focus grouped. Indeed, I’m not even sure if it was. I think Mahmood and Starmer were desperate for some “tough on border security” announcements and signed up to whatever some Home Office mandarin put in front of them.
    Starmer should have held a proper news conference. And they should have released detailed plans and how those without smartphones would get the ID . The policy should have clearly stated that the primary role was for work and people wouldn’t be forced to use it to access services .
    He should have announced a consultation on this to the House of Commons. He has no electoral mandate for a policy which was not in the manifesto.
    The Lords are under no obligation to pass the legislation for IDs as it wasn’t in the manifesto . I agree a consultation should have been done but I’m afraid No 10 and the team around Starmer are useless and the PM seems unable to grasp even the basics of selling policies .
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,300

    nico67 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Very strong support..

    @YouGov
    SNAP POLL/ From what you have seen or heard, do you support or oppose the proposal to introduce a digital ID card system in Britain?

    Support: 42%
    Oppose: 45%

    By 2024 vote
    Lab: 51% support / 35% oppose
    Con: 50% / 44%
    Lib Dem: 49% / 39%
    Reform: 22% / 69%

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1971600117544194105

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2025/09/26/aaac5/1?utm_source=daily_question&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=daily/2025/09/26_question_1

    42% isn't very strong. It's lower than I was expecting.
    We were told yesterday that "The thing is ID cards are very popular with the public"

    Andy_JS said:

    Very strong support..

    @YouGov
    SNAP POLL/ From what you have seen or heard, do you support or oppose the proposal to introduce a digital ID card system in Britain?

    Support: 42%
    Oppose: 45%

    By 2024 vote
    Lab: 51% support / 35% oppose
    Con: 50% / 44%
    Lib Dem: 49% / 39%
    Reform: 22% / 69%

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1971600117544194105

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2025/09/26/aaac5/1?utm_source=daily_question&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=daily/2025/09/26_question_1

    42% isn't very strong. It's lower than I was expecting.
    We were told yesterday that "The thing is ID cards are very popular with the public"
    I suspected this would happen . Polling hypothetical scenarios often leads to big changes once a policy is announced. This wasn’t helped by another major fail of the No 10 comms team .
    I am getting the feeling this wasn’t sufficiently stress tested/focus grouped. Indeed, I’m not even sure if it was. I think Mahmood and Starmer were desperate for some “tough on border security” announcements and signed up to whatever some Home Office mandarin put in front of them.
    Michael Howard said that in any crisis a pile of proposals would come out of the cupboard at the Home Office. And that the duty of a Home Sec. was to say no to all of them.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,521

    boulay said:

    Very strong support..

    @YouGov
    SNAP POLL/ From what you have seen or heard, do you support or oppose the proposal to introduce a digital ID card system in Britain?

    Support: 42%
    Oppose: 45%

    By 2024 vote
    Lab: 51% support / 35% oppose
    Con: 50% / 44%
    Lib Dem: 49% / 39%
    Reform: 22% / 69%

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1971600117544194105

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2025/09/26/aaac5/1?utm_source=daily_question&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=daily/2025/09/26_question_1

    Starmer isn’t getting majority support for a policy on day one, that has shown high levels of hypothetical support previously.

    I think he has entered the “everything he touches turns to sh*t” stage of his premiership.
    He was such a pompous arrogant jackass whilst LotO that it’s especially delicious that it’s happened so quickly.

    Was he horrid to nice Sir Boris?
    That’s definitely my beef with him, poor Boris. I’m thinking more his very googleable (is that a word) performances in PMQs etc where he seemed to believe his hype about his own abilities and that the problems the country had were purely the makings of Sunak rather than Covid and the rampant inflation caused largely by Ukraine. A little voice on his shoulder telling him to reign it in as he might have to deal with the same problems himself wouldn’t have gone amiss.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,403
    Some great reporting from C4 News from Sudan this week.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,025
    edited September 26
    Andy_JS said:

    IanB2 said:

    Petition now up to 1.2 million, still running at more than 1,000 signups per minute

    Now 1.3 million.
    While the extent of public concern isn’t a surprise, that people are signing up at such a rate today indicates it’s being pushed in a professional and very effective way - I wonder how and where?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 68,227
    Tides of History
    @labour_history

    “No wonder he’s against identity cards”

    Tony Blair roasts David Cameron at PMQs - 2006

    https://x.com/labour_history/status/1971307122647499005
  • IanB2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    IanB2 said:

    Petition now up to 1.2 million, still running at more than 1,000 signups per minute

    Now 1.3 million.
    While the extent of public concern isn’t a surprise, that people are signing up at such a rate today indicates it’s being pushed in a professional and very effective way - I wonder how and where?
    It was mentioned on PM and the BBC Six Oclock radio news. I think awareness is driving it more than anything. These petitions tend to be self driving in the early to mid stages. The bigger it gets the more it is reported so more people sign it.

    The trick is to get it to that self perpetuating stage in the first place.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,496

    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Great Britain is now the most dysfunctional country in the western world

    Discuss

    In many ways it has a distinct resemblance to the old USSR in about 1978

    In the western world? We're middling on most measures; on things like HDI, happiness etc we're only bested by the Nordics, Australia etc.
    I cannot think of a significant western nation which is worse run than Britain. Italy used to be our escape clause - "at least we're not as bad as Italy" - but they now have a stable government compared to ours, a more sensible foreign policy. and they have just taken over us by GDP in PPP

    Greece, perhaps? But their economy is now doing notably better than ours

    A rum do
    'UK records second biggest population jump in 75 years'

    must be doing something right
    It’s called Open Borders. And people aren’t flocking here from Switzerland or Australia
    Around 100,000 Australians live in the UK. Many more are here on short term visas for study or work or travel.
    Can any of them play cricket?
    You thinking of fast tracking them for British Nationality if they will play in the Ashes for us? Sound plan I think. ;)
    Especially if they can bowl more than 10 overs in a day. Or bat for more than 20 overs, Or catch.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,985
    Leon said:

    Great Britain is now the most dysfunctional country in the western world

    Discuss

    In many ways it has a distinct resemblance to the old USSR in about 1978

    In the references for my Blob article , see this book where Innes already makes that point with some force.

    * [51] “Late Soviet Britain, Why Materialist Utopias Fail” (2023), Dr Abby Inness (2023). See ISBN 9781009373647, DOI: https://doi.org/10.1017/9781009373647. See her lectures associated with this book on YouTube, for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1EJWW6p3yY and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_H_1Akaip0.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,061
    Andy_JS said:

    "“Digital ID” proves that the government has run out of ideas
    It simply will not fix the issue it claims it will fix

    Ben Sixsmith"

    https://thecritic.co.uk/digital-id-proves-that-the-government-has-run-out-of-ideas/

    I like the 'government has run out of ideas' line. They never had any to start with.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 68,227

    IanB2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    IanB2 said:

    Petition now up to 1.2 million, still running at more than 1,000 signups per minute

    Now 1.3 million.
    While the extent of public concern isn’t a surprise, that people are signing up at such a rate today indicates it’s being pushed in a professional and very effective way - I wonder how and where?
    It was mentioned on PM and the BBC Six Oclock radio news. I think awareness is driving it more than anything. These petitions tend to be self driving in the early to mid stages. The bigger it gets the more it is reported so more people sign it.

    The trick is to get it to that self perpetuating stage in the first place.
    As soon as conference season is out of the way the ID card/pass will be parked in the long grass.

    iirc the key details driver on this in government has been Pat McFadden's cabinet office. He's now up to his neck in it at DWP. Doubt he's gonna have time to drive this further.

    It's a dead swan thrown at the table.

  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,446
    My Labour friends don’t want to abandon the party but they’re totally fxcked off with Starmer and what they see as a series of avoidable disasters which are helping Reform .
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,681
    AnneJGP said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "“Digital ID” proves that the government has run out of ideas
    It simply will not fix the issue it claims it will fix

    Ben Sixsmith"

    https://thecritic.co.uk/digital-id-proves-that-the-government-has-run-out-of-ideas/

    I like the 'government has run out of ideas' line. They never had any to start with.
    Not entirely true.
    They had done decent instincts on planning/construction, but so far have failed almost entirely to put them into practice.

    And another one...

    The King endured decades of mockery and vitriol for building a mixed use, walkable, vernacular urban quarter at Poundbury. Now the Government says that Poundbury will be the model for next generation of new towns. Quite a vindication!
    https://x.com/SCP_Hughes/status/1971602992790192262

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,403
    nico67 said:

    My Labour friends don’t want to abandon the party but they’re totally fxcked off with Starmer and what they see as a series of avoidable disasters which are helping Reform .

    I can see why Zack is attracting them:

    “Let’s call it for what it is: bullshit. The truth is, politicians have talked about little else but immigration for decades and in the most dehumanising ways.

    Polanski added: “Stop the boats’ is all we hear. Well, today I'm saying ‘stop the bullshit’.”

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/keir-starmer-government-mark-carney-prime-minister-tommy-robinson-b2834346.html

    https://bsky.app/profile/zackpolanski.bsky.social/post/3lzqlfuh4ds2i

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,599
    5. Starmer’s two deputy leadership potentials both appear to dislike him. One has essentially been plotting to depose him.

    6. It remains a mystery why Lammy was moved from the Foreign Office where the government has broadly been doing a decent job.

    7. No Labour reset is possible with Reeves as Chancellor.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,404

    a

    Andy_JS said:

    Very strong support..

    @YouGov
    SNAP POLL/ From what you have seen or heard, do you support or oppose the proposal to introduce a digital ID card system in Britain?

    Support: 42%
    Oppose: 45%

    By 2024 vote
    Lab: 51% support / 35% oppose
    Con: 50% / 44%
    Lib Dem: 49% / 39%
    Reform: 22% / 69%

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1971600117544194105

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2025/09/26/aaac5/1?utm_source=daily_question&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=daily/2025/09/26_question_1

    42% isn't very strong. It's lower than I was expecting.
    We were told yesterday that "The thing is ID cards are very popular with the public"
    Isn’t this what we have been asking for though? Blair and Brown wanted immigration because they believed limitless immigration meant limitless growth. At exactly the same time the reason Migrants hell bent on UK, is becuase we have let them know for decades - get here and you will get work on our black market - we have made it clear to the world we never clamp down in our black market, and that’s paved every illegal economic migrants path here, with gold.
    What have I got wrong?
    If you want to get rid of illegal employment, you need enforcement.

    The employment is illegal and reputable employers check.

    At the moment a tiny fraction of the scumbag employers get caught.

    Hence my proposal to up the fines and give half to the person who gives evidence. Combine that with breaking the use of corporate shields to protect assets - see proceeds of crime. And indefinite leave to remain for the person giving evidence. If they need it.
    If you want to get rid of illegal employment, make all employment legal.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,599
    Nigelb said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "“Digital ID” proves that the government has run out of ideas
    It simply will not fix the issue it claims it will fix

    Ben Sixsmith"

    https://thecritic.co.uk/digital-id-proves-that-the-government-has-run-out-of-ideas/

    I like the 'government has run out of ideas' line. They never had any to start with.
    Not entirely true.
    They had done decent instincts on planning/construction, but so far have failed almost entirely to put them into practice.

    And another one...

    The King endured decades of mockery and vitriol for building a mixed use, walkable, vernacular urban quarter at Poundbury. Now the Government says that Poundbury will be the model for next generation of new towns. Quite a vindication!
    https://x.com/SCP_Hughes/status/1971602992790192262

    Did they have decent instincts?
    I haven’t really seen evidence of that.
    Moreover, Starmer gave Rayner the Housing job when he must surely have known that she had no real clue on how to deliver.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,021
    Andy_JS said:

    "Fingerprints and a €20 fee – the new rules for visiting Europe explained
    From October 12, Britons will face new rules to visit Europe under the EES and ETIAS schemes – here’s everything you need to know
    Nick Trend"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/advice/new-eu-entry-exit-visa-system-rules/?recomm_id=991741f2-d8bf-4d1f-8162-aeea13b8db16

    EUR100 on the cost of a family holiday... Brexit really is the gift that keeps on giving.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 68,227
    Republicans against Trump
    @RpsAgainstTrump
    ·
    6m
    Brutal new Quinnipiac poll for Trump:

    Overall: 38% approve, 54% disapprove

    Trade: 39% approve, 54% disapprove

    Immigration: 41% approve, 55% disapprove
  • glwglw Posts: 10,538

    2. The hatred of Starmer, stirred up by right-wing media, and left-wing backbenchers, remains wholly out of proportion. Having said that, the ID cards “announcement” is another proof point of his inability to do any kind of retail politics. Whatever one’s option of ID cards, it’s really not obvious what the connect is with “out of control migration”.

    I've been saying Starmer can't do politics for ages now, but for me this latest Digital ID brainwave and the half-arsed launch and explanation of why we need it have led me to conclude that in purely political terms Starmer is the worst PM of my lifetime. He's simply not up to that aspect of the job, which makes gaining public support and any sort of real leadership almost impossible for him.

    May, Sunak, and honestly even Truss seem less politically incompetent. Starmer should be someone else's right-hand man, not the boss.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,599
    Foxy said:

    nico67 said:

    My Labour friends don’t want to abandon the party but they’re totally fxcked off with Starmer and what they see as a series of avoidable disasters which are helping Reform .

    I can see why Zack is attracting them:

    “Let’s call it for what it is: bullshit. The truth is, politicians have talked about little else but immigration for decades and in the most dehumanising ways.

    Polanski added: “Stop the boats’ is all we hear. Well, today I'm saying ‘stop the bullshit’.”

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/keir-starmer-government-mark-carney-prime-minister-tommy-robinson-b2834346.html

    https://bsky.app/profile/zackpolanski.bsky.social/post/3lzqlfuh4ds2i

    The Greens will continue to do well.
    Zack is a complete charlatan, of course, but the coinage of political leadership is somewhat debased these days.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,496

    “We’ve got to get beyond this thing of being in hock to the bond markets.”

    For how many Party Leadership elections in a row has the Conservative Party voted for that same sentiment?

    How does PB’s Liberal Economic right take down that sentiment?

    Yep, totally agree. First we need to repay just under £2trn of debt and then we will owe them next to nothing and will not need to care what they think.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 68,227

    Foxy said:

    nico67 said:

    My Labour friends don’t want to abandon the party but they’re totally fxcked off with Starmer and what they see as a series of avoidable disasters which are helping Reform .

    I can see why Zack is attracting them:

    “Let’s call it for what it is: bullshit. The truth is, politicians have talked about little else but immigration for decades and in the most dehumanising ways.

    Polanski added: “Stop the boats’ is all we hear. Well, today I'm saying ‘stop the bullshit’.”

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/keir-starmer-government-mark-carney-prime-minister-tommy-robinson-b2834346.html

    https://bsky.app/profile/zackpolanski.bsky.social/post/3lzqlfuh4ds2i

    The Greens will continue to do well.
    Zack is a complete charlatan, of course, but the coinage of political leadership is somewhat debased these days.
    Where do the deep green ecologists go now though?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,599
    I agree that Reeves is caught in a slightly self-imposed trap with respect to the bond markets. If one wants to be charitable, getting “out of hock” could mean simply crafting a narrative that investor sentiment can get behind, reducing or eliminating the moron premium.

    However I doubt Burnham knows how to do that.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,599
    I just paid a bill for some hallway lights in a flat I have in London. Total bill was something like £150, of which just £3 was for actual electricity, the rest comprised standing charges.

    What the hell is that about.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 68,227
    George Conway 👊🇺🇸🔥
    @gtconway3d

    Even in his most fevered, drunken dreams, Richard Milhous Nixon couldn't possibly have even imagined doing a tenth of this shit.

    https://x.com/gtconway3d/status/1971588869406744799
  • DavidL said:

    “We’ve got to get beyond this thing of being in hock to the bond markets.”

    For how many Party Leadership elections in a row has the Conservative Party voted for that same sentiment?

    How does PB’s Liberal Economic right take down that sentiment?

    Yep, totally agree. First we need to repay just under £2trn of debt and then we will owe them next to nothing and will not need to care what they think.
    Trouble is (as you know, because you're on the side of the people who have noticed), it's going to take a pretty unpleasant combination of tax rises and government spending cuts just to stop things getting worse.

    Even if the government were up for it, there's about a third of the electorate who are guaranteed to be livid at anything any government says, on general principle.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,599
    edited September 26

    Foxy said:

    nico67 said:

    My Labour friends don’t want to abandon the party but they’re totally fxcked off with Starmer and what they see as a series of avoidable disasters which are helping Reform .

    I can see why Zack is attracting them:

    “Let’s call it for what it is: bullshit. The truth is, politicians have talked about little else but immigration for decades and in the most dehumanising ways.

    Polanski added: “Stop the boats’ is all we hear. Well, today I'm saying ‘stop the bullshit’.”

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/keir-starmer-government-mark-carney-prime-minister-tommy-robinson-b2834346.html

    https://bsky.app/profile/zackpolanski.bsky.social/post/3lzqlfuh4ds2i

    The Greens will continue to do well.
    Zack is a complete charlatan, of course, but the coinage of political leadership is somewhat debased these days.
    Where do the deep green ecologists go now though?
    I’m not saying that Zack is not green green. He may be, I don’t know.

    However he clearly hasn’t the merest clue on serious policy issues, and his schtick is simply to mouth the left wing equivalents of motherhood and apple pie in an attractive way.

    The U.S. equivalent is Mamdani, who will certainly win the NY mayorals in November.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 68,227

    Politics UK
    @PolitlcsUK
    🚨 NEW: John McDonnell and Apsana Begum have had the Labour whip reinstated after being suspended last year for voting against the two-child benefit cap
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,061

    I just paid a bill for some hallway lights in a flat I have in London. Total bill was something like £150, of which just £3 was for actual electricity, the rest comprised standing charges.

    What the hell is that about.

    They have to make their money somehow.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 68,227
    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    Latest Deputy Leadership CLP nomination figures just published. Lucy Powell 221. Bridget Phillipson 140. Big lead for Lucy Powell. I'm not sure this contest is going to be that close.
    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/1971643178383249549
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,994
    Andy_JS said:

    IanB2 said:

    Petition now up to 1.2 million, still running at more than 1,000 signups per minute

    Now 1.3 million.
    That's also how many illegal immigrants Reform claim are in the UK. #justsaying
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 68,227

    Foxy said:

    nico67 said:

    My Labour friends don’t want to abandon the party but they’re totally fxcked off with Starmer and what they see as a series of avoidable disasters which are helping Reform .

    I can see why Zack is attracting them:

    “Let’s call it for what it is: bullshit. The truth is, politicians have talked about little else but immigration for decades and in the most dehumanising ways.

    Polanski added: “Stop the boats’ is all we hear. Well, today I'm saying ‘stop the bullshit’.”

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/keir-starmer-government-mark-carney-prime-minister-tommy-robinson-b2834346.html

    https://bsky.app/profile/zackpolanski.bsky.social/post/3lzqlfuh4ds2i

    The Greens will continue to do well.
    Zack is a complete charlatan, of course, but the coinage of political leadership is somewhat debased these days.
    Where do the deep green ecologists go now though?
    I’m not saying that Zack is not green green. He may be, I don’t know.

    However he clearly hasn’t the merest clue on serious policy issues, and his schtick is simply to mouth the left wing equivalents of motherhood and apple pie in an attractive way.

    The U.S. equivalent is Mamdani, who will certainly win the NY mayorals in November.
    If he's deep green, eco perma-culture, teepee, nature-first green then I'm a dutchman living on the moon.

    There's a small % who are and I doubt they are very happy about recent developments.


  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,994
    edited September 26

    I just paid a bill for some hallway lights in a flat I have in London. Total bill was something like £150, of which just £3 was for actual electricity, the rest comprised standing charges.

    What the hell is that about.

    Dunno why Labour doesn't just bin them. Suits the green agenda because it rewards those who are energy efficient.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,599
    edited September 26

    DavidL said:

    “We’ve got to get beyond this thing of being in hock to the bond markets.”

    For how many Party Leadership elections in a row has the Conservative Party voted for that same sentiment?

    How does PB’s Liberal Economic right take down that sentiment?

    Yep, totally agree. First we need to repay just under £2trn of debt and then we will owe them next to nothing and will not need to care what they think.
    Trouble is (as you know, because you're on the side of the people who have noticed), it's going to take a pretty unpleasant combination of tax rises and government spending cuts just to stop things getting worse.

    Even if the government were up for it, there's about a third of the electorate who are guaranteed to be livid at anything any government says, on general principle.
    UK taxes are very badly loaded on middle class wage earners . Hardly anyone else pays tax. Taxes don’t necessarily need to go “up” they need to go “broad”. Perhaps this distinction is not meaningful, but in some ways the noise generated by groaning middle class tax payers is contributing to investor negativity.

    Social security is the inverse of this. It’s extremely generous (triple lock, inner city council houses for new arrivals, taxis for kids to get to school) to those who don’t “need” it, and cuts instead fall on the collective goods required for everyday quality of living (the justice system, the roads, town centres, and easy access to a doctor).

    My point is, notwithstanding demographic challenges which are actually not as bad in the UK as in in other places, it’s more a question to my mind of misallocation and a lack of confidence in economic strategy, than overall fiscal balances themselves.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,358
    On topic, living in London, I’d forgotten how profoundly vacuous he is. Being challenged by him is a godsend for Starmer.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,811

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    Latest Deputy Leadership CLP nomination figures just published. Lucy Powell 221. Bridget Phillipson 140. Big lead for Lucy Powell. I'm not sure this contest is going to be that close.
    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/1971643178383249549

    Our CLP voted tonight for Lucy.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,599
    Eabhal said:

    I just paid a bill for some hallway lights in a flat I have in London. Total bill was something like £150, of which just £3 was for actual electricity, the rest comprised standing charges.

    What the hell is that about.

    Dunno why Labour doesn't just bin them. Suits the green agenda because it rewards those who are energy efficient.
    I am talking to my co-share-of-freeholders about whether we simply cut the lights and furnish tenants with a torch.

    As with the A/C debate, the UK seems third world when it comes to how energy generation is framed, understood, and paid for.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,599
    Powell versus Phillipson.
    Both deeply unattractive figures.
    How did it get to that?
  • On topic, living in London, I’d forgotten how profoundly vacuous he is. Being challenged by him is a godsend for Starmer.

    Living in London, can you tell me why your mayor was interviewed by Sky (two days ago when he retaliated to Trump's attack) ON A BUS?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,826

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    Latest Deputy Leadership CLP nomination figures just published. Lucy Powell 221. Bridget Phillipson 140. Big lead for Lucy Powell. I'm not sure this contest is going to be that close.
    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/1971643178383249549

    Our CLP voted tonight for Lucy.
    Same, overwhelmingly.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,599
    I feared that Starmer would be “like Sadiq but worse”.
    And lo, it has turned out to be.
  • Powell versus Phillipson.
    Both deeply unattractive figures.
    How did it get to that?

    It's better than Starmer v Long-Bailey
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 7,315

    Eabhal said:

    I just paid a bill for some hallway lights in a flat I have in London. Total bill was something like £150, of which just £3 was for actual electricity, the rest comprised standing charges.

    What the hell is that about.

    Dunno why Labour doesn't just bin them. Suits the green agenda because it rewards those who are energy efficient.
    I am talking to my co-share-of-freeholders about whether we simply cut the lights and furnish tenants with a torch.

    As with the A/C debate, the UK seems third world when it comes to how energy generation is framed, understood, and paid for.
    Battery powered automatic lights?
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,358

    On topic, living in London, I’d forgotten how profoundly vacuous he is. Being challenged by him is a godsend for Starmer.

    Living in London, can you tell me why your mayor was interviewed by Sky (two days ago when he retaliated to Trump's attack) ON A BUS?
    New superloop route on the proposed Bakerloo extension for which he’s lobbying hard.
  • “We’ve got to get beyond this thing of being in hock to the bond markets.”

    For how many Party Leadership elections in a row has the Conservative Party voted for that same sentiment?

    How does PB’s Liberal Economic right take down that sentiment?

    Run a budget surplus and then you aren't so tied to the concerns of the bond markets.
    You can run a budget surplus though, by hiking taxes - that puts you in a good place to borrow and spend more? Burnhamnomics is going to work then?
    Budget surplus and borrow more do not go hand in hand. I think you've missed the point entirely.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,074
    Pulpstar said:

    Trying to square these two statements:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c07vxv8v89lo

    Kido told parents the breach happened when criminals accessed their data hosted by a software service called Famly.

    "We have conducted a thorough investigation of the incident and can confirm that there has been no breach of Famly's security or infrastructure in any way

    They accessed the data in a way that wasn’t a breach of security or infrastructure.

    Presumably social engineering or spear fishing to get the password
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,074
    Scott_xP said:

    I am surprised you didn't use the picture

    https://x.com/KevinASchofield/status/1971331002359480542

    That’s going to give me fricking nightmares
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,508
    rkrkrk said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    Latest Deputy Leadership CLP nomination figures just published. Lucy Powell 221. Bridget Phillipson 140. Big lead for Lucy Powell. I'm not sure this contest is going to be that close.
    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/1971643178383249549

    Our CLP voted tonight for Lucy.
    Same, overwhelmingly.
    As I noted a while back, those who turn up at CLP meetings are not necessarily representative of the members sitting at home but also getting a vote in the ballot.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,741

    Tides of History
    @labour_history

    “No wonder he’s against identity cards”

    Tony Blair roasts David Cameron at PMQs - 2006

    https://x.com/labour_history/status/1971307122647499005

    You sense that on both sides of the house politicians found their jobs rather more enjoyable than today's lot, don't you.
  • Andy Burnham is human brandy
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 9,109

    rkrkrk said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    Latest Deputy Leadership CLP nomination figures just published. Lucy Powell 221. Bridget Phillipson 140. Big lead for Lucy Powell. I'm not sure this contest is going to be that close.
    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/1971643178383249549

    Our CLP voted tonight for Lucy.
    Same, overwhelmingly.
    As I noted a while back, those who turn up at CLP meetings are not necessarily representative of the members sitting at home but also getting a vote in the ballot.
    Yes, I've just been to mine. 43 attended, out of a CLP membership of, I think, around 500. Powell won, 30-13. But I'm not at all sure that those proportions are representative of the hundreds of members who stayed at home, most of whom will vote.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,521

    Andy Burnham is human brandy

    More Blue Curaçao, everyone has seen it, heard of it but nobody has ever put it to the test in recent memory so there is a tiny hope it’s good but really everyone knows it will be a massive disappointment.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,741

    Been busy and now catching up.

    1. Burnham has buggered it. Clearly has no better ideas for how he’d do the job, and doesn’t even seem to have worked out a coherent path to displacing Starmer anyway.

    2. The hatred of Starmer, stirred up by right-wing media, and left-wing backbenchers, remains wholly out of proportion. Having said that, the ID cards “announcement” is another proof point of his inability to do any kind of retail politics. Whatever one’s option of ID cards, it’s really not obvious what the connect is with “out of control migration”.

    2a. Involvement from Palantir? Ugh. Kill with fire.

    3. Reform’s former Welsh leader being convicted of taking money from the Russians ought to be big news, as should Reform’s pathetic apeing of US anti-vax and anti-science memes. Reform would be an existential disaster for the country, beyond anything Burnham or even Corbyn could wreak.

    4. Corbyn/Sultana have also buggered it. Wouldn’t be surprised to see Corbyn lose Islington North in 2029.

    An efficient and effective summary of the last few days, thanks Gardenwalker.

    With respect to your 2a, what I don't understand about ID cards: for most people it's the linked central database that makes them throw their hands up in horror, rightly so in my view.

    So to hint at (but as far as I can tell provide no concrete detail on) the idea that Palantir will be the gatekeepers of our data seems utterly bonkers.

    I am about as sympathetic a listener to this government that you'll get. I still really want them to pull their fists out of their backsides and get to work solving some of our challenges in a semi-serious way. I would still (just) vote for them as the least worst option.

    But they seem completely determined to do politics in the the most childishly ineffective way possible.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,025

    rkrkrk said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    Latest Deputy Leadership CLP nomination figures just published. Lucy Powell 221. Bridget Phillipson 140. Big lead for Lucy Powell. I'm not sure this contest is going to be that close.
    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/1971643178383249549

    Our CLP voted tonight for Lucy.
    Same, overwhelmingly.
    As I noted a while back, those who turn up at CLP meetings are not necessarily representative of the members sitting at home but also getting a vote in the ballot.
    But voters of all sorts don’t get to vote on relatively high profile stuff very often, and when they do, they love to send a message. Especially more engaged voters like politcal party members.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,508
    IanB2 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    Latest Deputy Leadership CLP nomination figures just published. Lucy Powell 221. Bridget Phillipson 140. Big lead for Lucy Powell. I'm not sure this contest is going to be that close.
    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/1971643178383249549

    Our CLP voted tonight for Lucy.
    Same, overwhelmingly.
    As I noted a while back, those who turn up at CLP meetings are not necessarily representative of the members sitting at home but also getting a vote in the ballot.
    But voters of all sorts don’t get to vote on relatively high profile stuff very often, and when they do, they love to send a message. Especially more engaged voters like politcal party members.
    And that message might be that they don't want Andy Burnham's cheerleader in chief as Deputy Leader.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,298

    6. It remains a mystery why Lammy was moved from the Foreign Office where the government has broadly been doing a decent job.

    The explanation that makes most sense to me is that it was deemed necessary to replace Cooper at the Home Office, and moving her to FO was a way to avoid two women leaving major jobs at the same time (after Rayner).

    If it's true that Cooper was failing at the Home Office then I don't think moving her to the Foreign Office was a good idea.

    As it happens they sent Lammy as DPM to the UNGA, so maybe they'll keep on using him for diplomacy anyway.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,485
    Nigelb said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "“Digital ID” proves that the government has run out of ideas
    It simply will not fix the issue it claims it will fix

    Ben Sixsmith"

    https://thecritic.co.uk/digital-id-proves-that-the-government-has-run-out-of-ideas/

    I like the 'government has run out of ideas' line. They never had any to start with.
    Not entirely true.
    They had done decent instincts on planning/construction, but so far have failed almost entirely to put them into practice.

    And another one...

    The King endured decades of mockery and vitriol for building a mixed use, walkable, vernacular urban quarter at Poundbury. Now the Government says that Poundbury will be the model for next generation of new towns. Quite a vindication!
    https://x.com/SCP_Hughes/status/1971602992790192262

    Not sure if this is th3 same idea but I think it is. There is a new estate to the east of Plymouth (Plymstock?) that reminds me of Poundbury. All very nice but they have fucked the parking. Either there is none, or just one, around the back. So of course the ‘nice vernacular urban quarter now has cars dumped everywhere, like the aftermath of a hundred taking without consents… I admire the dream but you have to have a hard nose for realistic human behaviour.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,521

    6. It remains a mystery why Lammy was moved from the Foreign Office where the government has broadly been doing a decent job.

    The explanation that makes most sense to me is that it was deemed necessary to replace Cooper at the Home Office, and moving her to FO was a way to avoid two women leaving major jobs at the same time (after Rayner).

    If it's true that Cooper was failing at the Home Office then I don't think moving her to the Foreign Office was a good idea.

    As it happens they sent Lammy as DPM to the UNGA, so maybe they'll keep on using him for diplomacy anyway.
    How joyful that the occupants of important state roles should be considered foremost through the prism of what is between their legs rather than making a decision based on who is best available for the role.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,599
    Cooper might be an upgrade on Reeves in Treasury.

    But if keeping her around was so important, I’d have made her Deputy PM over Lammy and given *her* Justice.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,994
    edited September 26

    DavidL said:

    “We’ve got to get beyond this thing of being in hock to the bond markets.”

    For how many Party Leadership elections in a row has the Conservative Party voted for that same sentiment?

    How does PB’s Liberal Economic right take down that sentiment?

    Yep, totally agree. First we need to repay just under £2trn of debt and then we will owe them next to nothing and will not need to care what they think.
    Trouble is (as you know, because you're on the side of the people who have noticed), it's going to take a pretty unpleasant combination of tax rises and government spending cuts just to stop things getting worse.

    Even if the government were up for it, there's about a third of the electorate who are guaranteed to be livid at anything any government says, on general principle.
    UK taxes are very badly loaded on middle class wage earners . Hardly anyone else pays tax. Taxes don’t necessarily need to go “up” they need to go “broad”. Perhaps this distinction is not meaningful, but in some ways the noise generated by groaning middle class tax payers is contributing to investor negativity.

    Social security is the inverse of this. It’s extremely generous (triple lock, inner city council houses for new arrivals, taxis for kids to get to school) to those who don’t “need” it, and cuts instead fall on the collective goods required for everyday quality of living (the justice system, the roads, town centres, and easy access to a doctor).

    My point is, notwithstanding demographic challenges which are actually not as bad in the UK as in in other places, it’s more a question to my mind of misallocation and a lack of confidence in economic strategy, than overall fiscal balances themselves.
    Just to add: yes, social security is generous in this country on international comparison. What's weird is that our poverty rate is still quite bad even after that fiscal transfer.

    In a country like Denmark, the earnings distribution is much fairer, so their government spends less than we do but has less than half the poverty rate. The other distinctive thing is just how poor most of our major cities are - very unusual for that to be the case elsewhere, with poverty being something you find in towns/rural areas.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,599
    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    “We’ve got to get beyond this thing of being in hock to the bond markets.”

    For how many Party Leadership elections in a row has the Conservative Party voted for that same sentiment?

    How does PB’s Liberal Economic right take down that sentiment?

    Yep, totally agree. First we need to repay just under £2trn of debt and then we will owe them next to nothing and will not need to care what they think.
    Trouble is (as you know, because you're on the side of the people who have noticed), it's going to take a pretty unpleasant combination of tax rises and government spending cuts just to stop things getting worse.

    Even if the government were up for it, there's about a third of the electorate who are guaranteed to be livid at anything any government says, on general principle.
    UK taxes are very badly loaded on middle class wage earners . Hardly anyone else pays tax. Taxes don’t necessarily need to go “up” they need to go “broad”. Perhaps this distinction is not meaningful, but in some ways the noise generated by groaning middle class tax payers is contributing to investor negativity.

    Social security is the inverse of this. It’s extremely generous (triple lock, inner city council houses for new arrivals, taxis for kids to get to school) to those who don’t “need” it, and cuts instead fall on the collective goods required for everyday quality of living (the justice system, the roads, town centres, and easy access to a doctor).

    My point is, notwithstanding demographic challenges which are actually not as bad in the UK as in in other places, it’s more a question to my mind of misallocation and a lack of confidence in economic strategy, than overall fiscal balances themselves.
    Just to add: yes, social security is generous in this country on international comparison. What's weird is that our poverty rate is still quite bad even after that fiscal transfer.

    In a country like Denmark, the earnings distribution is much fairer, so their government spends less than we do but has less than half the poverty rate.
    The “human capital balance” is skewed in the UK.
    There are more “chavs” per head than in other Western countries and so pre-tax earnings distribution is also more skewey.

    Thats one theory, anyway,

    It would be interesting to understand other theories.
    Whether there is something about the structure of the UK economy itself (a bias toward rentierism perhaps) which skews pre-tax distribution.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 6,778

    rkrkrk said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    Latest Deputy Leadership CLP nomination figures just published. Lucy Powell 221. Bridget Phillipson 140. Big lead for Lucy Powell. I'm not sure this contest is going to be that close.
    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/1971643178383249549

    Our CLP voted tonight for Lucy.
    Same, overwhelmingly.
    As I noted a while back, those who turn up at CLP meetings are not necessarily representative of the members sitting at home but also getting a vote in the ballot.
    Yes, I've just been to mine. 43 attended, out of a CLP membership of, I think, around 500. Powell won, 30-13. But I'm not at all sure that those proportions are representative of the hundreds of members who stayed at home, most of whom will vote.
    Activists aren’t representative of party members, who aren’t representative of party voters. Hence the poor selection of party leaders we have suffered.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,599
    Fascinating to read that Ming Campbell once beat OJ Simpson in the 100m.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 6,778
    boulay said:

    Andy Burnham is human brandy

    More Blue Curaçao, everyone has seen it, heard of it but nobody has ever put it to the test in recent memory so there is a tiny hope it’s good but really everyone knows it will be a massive disappointment.
    When we were in Mauritius for a celebration a few years ago, Mrs. F’s cocktail of choice was a Blue Bay. Gin, Blue Curaçao and Lychee Juice. Surprisingly good.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,994
    edited September 26

    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    “We’ve got to get beyond this thing of being in hock to the bond markets.”

    For how many Party Leadership elections in a row has the Conservative Party voted for that same sentiment?

    How does PB’s Liberal Economic right take down that sentiment?

    Yep, totally agree. First we need to repay just under £2trn of debt and then we will owe them next to nothing and will not need to care what they think.
    Trouble is (as you know, because you're on the side of the people who have noticed), it's going to take a pretty unpleasant combination of tax rises and government spending cuts just to stop things getting worse.

    Even if the government were up for it, there's about a third of the electorate who are guaranteed to be livid at anything any government says, on general principle.
    UK taxes are very badly loaded on middle class wage earners . Hardly anyone else pays tax. Taxes don’t necessarily need to go “up” they need to go “broad”. Perhaps this distinction is not meaningful, but in some ways the noise generated by groaning middle class tax payers is contributing to investor negativity.

    Social security is the inverse of this. It’s extremely generous (triple lock, inner city council houses for new arrivals, taxis for kids to get to school) to those who don’t “need” it, and cuts instead fall on the collective goods required for everyday quality of living (the justice system, the roads, town centres, and easy access to a doctor).

    My point is, notwithstanding demographic challenges which are actually not as bad in the UK as in in other places, it’s more a question to my mind of misallocation and a lack of confidence in economic strategy, than overall fiscal balances themselves.
    Just to add: yes, social security is generous in this country on international comparison. What's weird is that our poverty rate is still quite bad even after that fiscal transfer.

    In a country like Denmark, the earnings distribution is much fairer, so their government spends less than we do but has less than half the poverty rate.
    The “human capital balance” is skewed in the UK.
    There are more “chavs” per head than in other Western countries and so pre-tax earnings distribution is also more skewey.

    Thats one theory, anyway,

    It would be interesting to understand other theories.
    Whether there is something about the structure of the UK economy itself (a bias toward rentierism perhaps) which skews pre-tax distribution.
    Denmark has very high unionisation rates, but that's quite unusual. I like the human capital thing, will dig into it more.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,521

    Fascinating to read that Ming Campbell once beat OJ Simpson in the 100m.

    Yes, it was usually OJ Simpson dishing out the beatings.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,681

    Been busy and now catching up.

    1. Burnham has buggered it. Clearly has no better ideas for how he’d do the job, and doesn’t even seem to have worked out a coherent path to displacing Starmer anyway.

    2. The hatred of Starmer, stirred up by right-wing media, and left-wing backbenchers, remains wholly out of proportion. Having said that, the ID cards “announcement” is another proof point of his inability to do any kind of retail politics. Whatever one’s option of ID cards, it’s really not obvious what the connect is with “out of control migration”.

    2a. Involvement from Palantir? Ugh. Kill with fire.

    3. Reform’s former Welsh leader being convicted of taking money from the Russians ought to be big news, as should Reform’s pathetic apeing of US anti-vax and anti-science memes. Reform would be an existential disaster for the country, beyond anything Burnham or even Corbyn could wreak...

    It should, but as with the GOP, they seem to get a pass from the media for having a significant element who seem keen to side unashamedly with the enemies of the west.

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