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The public are clear about how to deal with Russian aggression – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,718
edited October 6 in General
The public are clear about how to deal with Russian aggression – politicalbetting.com

Donald Trump yesterday said that NATO countries should shoot down Russian aircraft that enter their airspace – a stance that most Britons (55%) agree with

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Comments

  • Not surprised by this

    It has to happen
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,423
    57% of Lib Dems voters agree with Trump - will Ed Davey resign!!!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,142
    edited September 24

    57% of Lib Dems voters agree with Trump - will Ed Davey resign!!!

    Stopped clock syndrome, plus given how many u-turns the orange one has performed over Russia, next week he will be telling Putin to keep on violating NATO airspace.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,423
    Ukrainian naval drones attacking Novorossiysk and Tuapse on the Russian Black Sea coast. Russia completely unable to prevent Ukrainian naval drones from operating in the Eastern Black Sea.
  • Wait till America invades Venezuela or Greenland before going all in on sovereignty.
  • Ukrainian naval drones attacking Novorossiysk and Tuapse on the Russian Black Sea coast. Russia completely unable to prevent Ukrainian naval drones from operating in the Eastern Black Sea.

    Russia's unable to prevent drones operating near Moscow.
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,583
    Notable that Russia haven't yet dared to put an unauthorised plane into American airspace.

    Much as my teeth are grinding (actually I'm typing, so it's knuckles not teeth) I think Trump is in the right place on this. Only a show of strength from the west that this is a line Russia cannot cross, will prevent anything further.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,270
    55% jeez.

    Should be 95% if anyone’s studied history.
    Just because Donald Trump says it, doesn’t make it automatically wrong.

    In other news, at least three Russian O&G facilities have a smoking problem at the moment, the fuel shortages are now not far from Moscow, the Black Sea is undefendable, as is Crimea, and Russia is basically out of air defences except for central Moscow.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,912

    57% of Lib Dems voters agree with Trump - will Ed Davey resign!!!

    Why should he? Trump doesn't have to be wrong all the time.
  • It's pitch correction gone mad (2 mins video)

    They're Officially Deleting The Bee Gees

    The Bee Gees' official channel have pitch-corrected their 1989 performance, replacing the original vocals. The same has happened to Freddie Mercury's voice on the official Queen channel. This could impact how younger generations perceive these iconic artists.

    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/vaRNvppwQx0
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,195
    edited September 24
    FPT:

    On this anti vax, and now paracetamol issue, is this coming from the US Evangelical Movement who reject anything but Christ as the healer and see these substances as dangerous ?

    I am sure @HYUFD will have a view on this, but what is certain is it has to be comprehensively defeated and it certainly is not Christian

    I don't think so by that logic. There have been 'Christian' (quotes because they are fringe) groups opposed to medical healthcare or elements of it, such as Christian Scientists and Jehovah's Witnesses. But Evangelicals & others have also tended to take "Christ the Healer" as a model for practising medicine. Higher than average proportions of various type of Christian in medicine have contributed eg to the existence of conscience clauses in abortion law.

    I think they are more likely to be fertile ground for absorbing then maintaining the conspiracy narrative. Suspicion of Government motives is likely to be a greater factor, and viewing vaccines as big-government control, which can then feed into vaccine resistance. The intense literalism amongst MAGA Evangelicals could itself feed a suspicion.

    I've heard the debate across many UK evangelical groups, and the typical stance is that routine medical care is integrated theologically as God's working through other people and human science. But potentially 'vaccination' can work it's way into a different category. That's quite parallel to traditional churches having a history of "healing ministry" going back to the very start.

    But the USA is a different place, and they do things differently there.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 20,423
    edited September 24
    DavidL said:

    Can we rely on Trump to keep the same position on this for more than a few hours? If the RAF is going to shoot down any Russian planes I would want to be very sure we are still under the US umbrella.

    With Trump in the White House we no longer have a reliable friend or ally. We need to be aware of that. This does not mean that we do nothing but it does mean that we should not be operating under any illusions.

    I'm certain that we cannot rely on Trump, and I don't depend on his volte-face in relation to the Russo-Ukraine War. But I think it does show that Trump respects strength, and we have the best chance of keeping Trump's support if we show strength.

    Ukraine has, at least to an extent, impressed Trump with their campaign against Russian oil refineries, a clear demonstration of Russia's weakness and Ukrainian strength. That is more likely to win Trump's support than demonstrating weakness with an appeal for air defences to defend against Russian air attacks.

    So I think that Europe has to show a bit of strength in its own defence to have any chance of receiving any support from Trump. It's a bit crude, but if I was Keir Starmer I'd certainly hope it was a RAF plane that shot down the next Russian jet that violates NATO airspace, rather than a French or Italian one.

    Even if it's completely a matter of which jet happened to be on patrol or standby at the relevant time and place, it's a symbolism that Trump will notice.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 6,794
    Eabhal said:

    Finally a topic Reform voters are reasonably normal about. This is as wide a consensus you can find in UK politics.

    There was a lot of hand wringing about a punchy response to Russia's drone attack on Poland. A few days later and we have jets over Estonia. Astonishing how people simply cannot learn the lessons of the last decade when it comes to Putin.

    Yes, that surprised me when I saw the results. I was expecting Reform to be an outlier as usual. I hope Farage notes the results. Today’s poll is back to normal. Reform and the Tories think Trump supports Ukraine. Labour and Lib Dems think he supports Russia.
  • MattW said:

    FPT:

    On this anti vax, and now paracetamol issue, is this coming from the US Evangelical Movement who reject anything but Christ as the healer and see these substances as dangerous ?

    I am sure @HYUFD will have a view on this, but what is certain is it has to be comprehensively defeated and it certainly is not Christian

    I don't think so by that logic. There have been 'Christian' (quotes because they are fringe) groups opposed to medical healthcare or elements of it, such as Christian Scientists and Jehovah's Witnesses. But Evangelicals & others have also tended to take "Christ the Healer" as a model for practising medicine. Higher than average proportions of various type of Christian in medicine have contributed eg to the existence of conscience clauses in abortion law.

    I think amongst USA MAGA and other Evangelicals suspicion of Government motives is likely to be a greater factor, and viewing vaccines as big-government control, which can then feed into vaccine resistance. The intense literalism amongst MAGA Evangelicals could itself feed a suspicion.

    I've heard the debate across many UK evangelical groups, and the typical stance is that routine medical care is integrated theologically as God's working through other people and human science. That's quite parallel to traditional churches having a history of "healing ministry" going back to the very start.

    Even charismatics and pentecostals who promote "miracles" would normally view these as exceptional signs of God doing something directly in the here and now, as a special sign, rather than something to be expected routinely.
    Thank you for your reply which is interesting and easy to agree with
  • FPT on pb being ahead of the curve.

    Something else we picked up on before the herd is that President Trump's demands that Big Pharma charge their lowest prices to Americans would be bad news for the NHS.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,200
    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    Can we rely on Trump to keep the same position on this for more than a few hours? If the RAF is going to shoot down any Russian planes I would want to be very sure we are still under the US umbrella.

    With Trump in the White House we no longer have a reliable friend or ally. We need to be aware of that. This does not mean that we do nothing but it does mean that we should not be operating under any illusions.

    We should shoot them down regardless. Putin has to understand that there are consequences to this kind of behaviour with or without the Americans. With the Poles and Finns backing us up I wouldn't worry so much.
    This is where I am too now. I think we should forewarn Russia that any future incursion will lead to a shoot down, and we have to follow through with it.

    I don’t particularly like the escalatory feeling this brings, but it is now clearer than it has ever been that Putin is pushing the envelope, little by little, piece by piece, testing the waters, and if he doesn’t get slapped back he will continue to push his luck until we are on the very brink of conflict.

  • Sandpit said:

    55% jeez.

    Should be 95% if anyone’s studied history.
    Just because Donald Trump says it, doesn’t make it automatically wrong.

    In other news, at least three Russian O&G facilities have a smoking problem at the moment, the fuel shortages are now not far from Moscow, the Black Sea is undefendable, as is Crimea, and Russia is basically out of air defences except for central Moscow.

    The polling was before Trump’s comments.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 40,419
    @JoeCookJ

    Exc: Sky News understands the Arena and Convention Centre Liverpool was unaware of any event booked on the dates of the conference.

    ACC spox said: "All event enquiries are handled in strict confidence"

    Corbyn's spox says he's "assured it has been booked"
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,270
    MattW said:

    FPT:

    On this anti vax, and now paracetamol issue, is this coming from the US Evangelical Movement who reject anything but Christ as the healer and see these substances as dangerous ?

    I am sure @HYUFD will have a view on this, but what is certain is it has to be comprehensively defeated and it certainly is not Christian

    I don't think so by that logic. There have been 'Christian' (quotes because they are fringe) groups opposed to medical healthcare or elements of it, such as Christian Scientists and Jehovah's Witnesses. But Evangelicals & others have also tended to take "Christ the Healer" as a model for practising medicine. Higher than average proportions of various type of Christian in medicine have contributed eg to the existence of conscience clauses in abortion law.

    I think amongst USA MAGA and other Evangelicals suspicion of Government motives is likely to be a greater factor, and viewing vaccines as big-government control, which can then feed into vaccine resistance. The intense literalism amongst MAGA Evangelicals could itself feed a suspicion.

    I've heard the debate across many UK evangelical groups, and the typical stance is that routine medical care is integrated theologically as God's working through other people and human science. That's quite parallel to traditional churches having a history of "healing ministry" going back to the very start.

    Even charismatics and pentecostals who promote "miracles" would normally view these as exceptional signs of God doing something directly in the here and now, as a special sign, rather than something to be expected routinely.
    The US healthcare system is totally alien to anyone familiar with that elsewhere, and it’s utterly broken and beholden to corporate interests.

    Start with all the pharma ads on TV, the revolving door between regulators and regulated, the millions of political lobbying dollars sponsoring legislation, a long history of drugs being pulled for killing people, how getting a simple scan or drug can cost you more out of pocket with insurance than without it thanks to kickbacks through the system. It’s all a total mess.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,200
    Scott_xP said:

    @JoeCookJ

    Exc: Sky News understands the Arena and Convention Centre Liverpool was unaware of any event booked on the dates of the conference.

    ACC spox said: "All event enquiries are handled in strict confidence"

    Corbyn's spox says he's "assured it has been booked"

    The gift that keeps on giving.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,270

    Sandpit said:

    55% jeez.

    Should be 95% if anyone’s studied history.
    Just because Donald Trump says it, doesn’t make it automatically wrong.

    In other news, at least three Russian O&G facilities have a smoking problem at the moment, the fuel shortages are now not far from Moscow, the Black Sea is undefendable, as is Crimea, and Russia is basically out of air defences except for central Moscow.

    The polling was before Trump’s comments.
    Which makes it even worse.

    “Should we shoot down military aircraft from an enemy nation who bust our airspace?” should be damn near a 100% answer.

    Why do they think we have those Typhoons at Lossiemouth and Conningsby?
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 6,794

    DavidL said:

    Can we rely on Trump to keep the same position on this for more than a few hours? If the RAF is going to shoot down any Russian planes I would want to be very sure we are still under the US umbrella.

    With Trump in the White House we no longer have a reliable friend or ally. We need to be aware of that. This does not mean that we do nothing but it does mean that we should not be operating under any illusions.

    I'm certain that we cannot rely on Trump, and I don't depend on his volte-face in relation to the Russo-Ukraine War. But I think it does show that Trump respects strength, and we have the best chance of keeping Trump's support if we show strength.

    Ukraine has, at least to an extent, impressed Trump with their campaign against Russian oil refineries, a clear demonstration of Russia's weakness and Ukrainian strength. That is more likely to win Trump's support than demonstrating weakness with an appeal for air defences to defend against Russian air attacks.

    So I think that Europe has to show a bit of strength in its own defence to have any chance of receiving any support from Trump. It's a bit crude, but if I was Keir Starmer I'd certainly hope it was a RAF plane that shot down the next Russian jet that violates NATO airspace, rather than a French or Italian one.

    Even if it's completely a matter of which jet happened to be on patrol or standby at the relevant time and place, it's a symbolism that Trump will notice.
    Trump wants the European nations in NATO to take more responsibility. He should be pleased if we shoot down Russian planes and drones over NATO territory.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,230
    On picking up my 10 year old daughter today, she tells me that 'apparently Donald Trump has offered [sic] to delete all the pictures and videos of black people' - is this a new thing I have missed? Or the playground grapevine distilling rumour to the point of uselessness?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,433
    MattW said:

    FPT:

    On this anti vax, and now paracetamol issue, is this coming from the US Evangelical Movement who reject anything but Christ as the healer and see these substances as dangerous ?

    I am sure @HYUFD will have a view on this, but what is certain is it has to be comprehensively defeated and it certainly is not Christian

    I don't think so by that logic. There have been 'Christian' (quotes because they are fringe) groups opposed to medical healthcare or elements of it, such as Christian Scientists and Jehovah's Witnesses. But Evangelicals & others have also tended to take "Christ the Healer" as a model for practising medicine. Higher than average proportions of various type of Christian in medicine have contributed eg to the existence of conscience clauses in abortion law.

    I think they are more likely to be fertile ground for absorbing then maintaining the conspiracy narrative. Suspicion of Government motives is likely to be a greater factor, and viewing vaccines as big-government control, which can then feed into vaccine resistance. The intense literalism amongst MAGA Evangelicals could itself feed a suspicion.

    I've heard the debate across many UK evangelical groups, and the typical stance is that routine medical care is integrated theologically as God's working through other people and human science. But potentially 'vaccination' can work it's way into a different category. That's quite parallel to traditional churches having a history of "healing ministry" going back to the very start.

    But the USA is a different place, and they do things differently there.
    It's conspiracy narrative mingled in with a general dislike of state diktat and 'big pharma' companies, the latter because of feeling that over-medication is rife in the States and that pharmaceutical companies are to blame for demand creation in this area. I have some sympathy with the latter point.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,195
    edited September 24
    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    FPT:

    On this anti vax, and now paracetamol issue, is this coming from the US Evangelical Movement who reject anything but Christ as the healer and see these substances as dangerous ?

    I am sure @HYUFD will have a view on this, but what is certain is it has to be comprehensively defeated and it certainly is not Christian

    I don't think so by that logic. There have been 'Christian' (quotes because they are fringe) groups opposed to medical healthcare or elements of it, such as Christian Scientists and Jehovah's Witnesses. But Evangelicals & others have also tended to take "Christ the Healer" as a model for practising medicine. Higher than average proportions of various type of Christian in medicine have contributed eg to the existence of conscience clauses in abortion law.

    I think amongst USA MAGA and other Evangelicals suspicion of Government motives is likely to be a greater factor, and viewing vaccines as big-government control, which can then feed into vaccine resistance. The intense literalism amongst MAGA Evangelicals could itself feed a suspicion.

    I've heard the debate across many UK evangelical groups, and the typical stance is that routine medical care is integrated theologically as God's working through other people and human science. That's quite parallel to traditional churches having a history of "healing ministry" going back to the very start.

    Even charismatics and pentecostals who promote "miracles" would normally view these as exceptional signs of God doing something directly in the here and now, as a special sign, rather than something to be expected routinely.
    The US healthcare system is totally alien to anyone familiar with that elsewhere, and it’s utterly broken and beholden to corporate interests.

    Start with all the pharma ads on TV, the revolving door between regulators and regulated, the millions of political lobbying dollars sponsoring legislation, a long history of drugs being pulled for killing people, how getting a simple scan or drug can cost you more out of pocket with insurance than without it thanks to kickbacks through the system. It’s all a total mess.
    I agree, and added an edit:
    "But the USA is a different place, and they do things differently there."

    We have our own problematic histories, but imo we in a better place on public health campaigns and questions.

    I shared houses with pharmacy students at university, and the attitude to "pill-rollers" was ... interesting.
  • Scott_xP said:

    @JoeCookJ

    Exc: Sky News understands the Arena and Convention Centre Liverpool was unaware of any event booked on the dates of the conference.

    ACC spox said: "All event enquiries are handled in strict confidence"

    Corbyn's spox says he's "assured it has been booked"

    Has Sky News checked the nearby garden centres?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,060
    The left can’t organise or manage itself, so why trust them with managing us?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,691
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    55% jeez.

    Should be 95% if anyone’s studied history.
    Just because Donald Trump says it, doesn’t make it automatically wrong.

    In other news, at least three Russian O&G facilities have a smoking problem at the moment, the fuel shortages are now not far from Moscow, the Black Sea is undefendable, as is Crimea, and Russia is basically out of air defences except for central Moscow.

    The polling was before Trump’s comments.
    Which makes it even worse.

    “Should we shoot down military aircraft from an enemy nation who bust our airspace?” should be damn near a 100% answer.

    Why do they think we have those Typhoons at Lossiemouth and Conningsby?
    There are issues. There have been a number of 'accidental' shootdowns of civilian airliners when countries have tried this: from MH17 by Russia, UA517 by Iran, KAL007 by Russia, Iranian 655 by the USA.

    The problem is that all too often, militaries who try this mistake civilian craft for military ones.

    This is not a reason not to do it; just that there may well be consequences to doing so.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,270
    IanB2 said:

    The left can’t organise or manage itself, so why trust them with managing us?

    Hasn’t that been the case for several decades already?

    Now they can’t organise a pissup in Liverpool, of all places.

    If I were to take a guess, they either tried to book the venue with an alias, or couldn’t front the deposit required after the ‘confirmation’ email.

    These arena venues cost five figures per day, and they don’t like void days.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,827

    I really wish the British media would focus on the Russian shithousery than Charlie Kirk and Jimmy Kimmel.

    In that context, it’s worth noting that Kirk called Zelensky (not Putin) a “petulant child” who was “responsible for a million deaths”.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,827

    Eabhal said:

    Finally a topic Reform voters are reasonably normal about. This is as wide a consensus you can find in UK politics.

    There was a lot of hand wringing about a punchy response to Russia's drone attack on Poland. A few days later and we have jets over Estonia. Astonishing how people simply cannot learn the lessons of the last decade when it comes to Putin.

    Yes, that surprised me when I saw the results. I was expecting Reform to be an outlier as usual. I hope Farage notes the results. Today’s poll is back to normal. Reform and the Tories think Trump supports Ukraine. Labour and Lib Dems think he supports Russia.
    He certainly doesn’t actually support Ukraine, though he’s still prepared to sell us arms for them.

    It’s unclear from week to week quite how he feels about Russia.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,195
    ANOTHER one.

    This is something to do with a potential or actual conflict of interest around Doncaster Airport, but detail is a little obscure. The RefUK Council group leader seems on the surface to have done the right thing.

    It follows the establishment of ‘Fly Doncaster (Auxiliary Services) Ltd’, which was registered on Companies House over the weekend with both Knight and Reed as co-directors.

    The controversial company shares the first part of its name with the “arms-length” business created by Doncaster Council to run Doncaster Sheffield Airport (DSA).

    Cllr Guy Aston, Reform UK group leader, said: “It is essential that the public can have complete trust in their elected representatives. Councillor Knight’s decision to establish this company without consultation caused reputational damage and placed our group’s work under unnecessary strain.

    https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/news/politics/reform-uk-boot-councillor-over-doncaster-airport-company-controversy-5332383
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,036

    Cookie said:

    On picking up my 10 year old daughter today, she tells me that 'apparently Donald Trump has offered [sic] to delete all the pictures and videos of black people' - is this a new thing I have missed? Or the playground grapevine distilling rumour to the point of uselessness?

    I think that shows 10 year olds have an intuitive understanding of what Trump’s about.
    I bet dogs hate Trump. They are often good judges of character.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,414
    Sandpit said:

    55% jeez.

    Should be 95% if anyone’s studied history.
    Just because Donald Trump says it, doesn’t make it automatically wrong.

    In other news, at least three Russian O&G facilities have a smoking problem at the moment, the fuel shortages are now not far from Moscow, the Black Sea is undefendable, as is Crimea, and Russia is basically out of air defences except for central Moscow.

    And Putin's Palace.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,827

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    55% jeez.

    Should be 95% if anyone’s studied history.
    Just because Donald Trump says it, doesn’t make it automatically wrong.

    In other news, at least three Russian O&G facilities have a smoking problem at the moment, the fuel shortages are now not far from Moscow, the Black Sea is undefendable, as is Crimea, and Russia is basically out of air defences except for central Moscow.

    The polling was before Trump’s comments.
    Which makes it even worse.

    “Should we shoot down military aircraft from an enemy nation who bust our airspace?” should be damn near a 100% answer.

    Why do they think we have those Typhoons at Lossiemouth and Conningsby?
    There are issues. There have been a number of 'accidental' shootdowns of civilian airliners when countries have tried this: from MH17 by Russia, UA517 by Iran, KAL007 by Russia, Iranian 655 by the USA.

    The problem is that all too often, militaries who try this mistake civilian craft for military ones.

    This is not a reason not to do it; just that there may well be consequences to doing so.
    And the airspace over the Baltic area is pretty crowded.

    Estonia didn’t shoot down the Russian jets because it doesn’t yet have the capacity (it will by next year).
    And the visiting NATO forces are much more constrained by NATO rules of engagement as to what they can do above another member state’s territory,

    But I think it’s fairly clear that European NATO attitudes are hardening, and those rules of engagement won’t be quite so restrictive in the future.
  • Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    55% jeez.

    Should be 95% if anyone’s studied history.
    Just because Donald Trump says it, doesn’t make it automatically wrong.

    In other news, at least three Russian O&G facilities have a smoking problem at the moment, the fuel shortages are now not far from Moscow, the Black Sea is undefendable, as is Crimea, and Russia is basically out of air defences except for central Moscow.

    The polling was before Trump’s comments.
    Which makes it even worse.

    “Should we shoot down military aircraft from an enemy nation who bust our airspace?” should be damn near a 100% answer.

    Why do they think we have those Typhoons at Lossiemouth and Conningsby?
    There are issues. There have been a number of 'accidental' shootdowns of civilian airliners when countries have tried this: from MH17 by Russia, UA517 by Iran, KAL007 by Russia, Iranian 655 by the USA.

    The problem is that all too often, militaries who try this mistake civilian craft for military ones.

    This is not a reason not to do it; just that there may well be consequences to doing so.
    And the airspace over the Baltic area is pretty crowded.

    Estonia didn’t shoot down the Russian jets because it doesn’t yet have the capacity (it will by next year).
    And the visiting NATO forces are much more constrained by NATO rules of engagement as to what they can do above another member state’s territory,

    But I think it’s fairly clear that European NATO attitudes are hardening, and those rules of engagement won’t be quite so restrictive in the future.
    We need to be a bit careful here because probing air defences is SOP for the good guys too, aiui.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,195
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    55% jeez.

    Should be 95% if anyone’s studied history.
    Just because Donald Trump says it, doesn’t make it automatically wrong.

    In other news, at least three Russian O&G facilities have a smoking problem at the moment, the fuel shortages are now not far from Moscow, the Black Sea is undefendable, as is Crimea, and Russia is basically out of air defences except for central Moscow.

    The polling was before Trump’s comments.
    Which makes it even worse.

    “Should we shoot down military aircraft from an enemy nation who bust our airspace?” should be damn near a 100% answer.

    Why do they think we have those Typhoons at Lossiemouth and Conningsby?
    There are issues. There have been a number of 'accidental' shootdowns of civilian airliners when countries have tried this: from MH17 by Russia, UA517 by Iran, KAL007 by Russia, Iranian 655 by the USA.

    The problem is that all too often, militaries who try this mistake civilian craft for military ones.

    This is not a reason not to do it; just that there may well be consequences to doing so.
    And the airspace over the Baltic area is pretty crowded.

    Estonia didn’t shoot down the Russian jets because it doesn’t yet have the capacity (it will by next year).
    And the visiting NATO forces are much more constrained by NATO rules of engagement as to what they can do above another member state’s territory,

    But I think it’s fairly clear that European NATO attitudes are hardening, and those rules of engagement won’t be quite so restrictive in the future.
    I think a modest start could be to fit Ukrainian planes with NATO Identify Friend or Foe systems. "Increased safety" could be the "reason".
  • Urgent review ordered into asylum seeker taxi costs

    One asylum seeker told the BBC he had taken a 250-mile journey to visit a GP, with the driver telling him the cost to the Home Office was £600.

    Asylum seekers are issued with a bus pass for one return journey per week, but for any other necessary travel, such as a doctor's appointment, taxis are called.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2j3regpdno
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,270
    Nigelb said:

    I really wish the British media would focus on the Russian shithousery than Charlie Kirk and Jimmy Kimmel.

    In that context, it’s worth noting that Kirk called Zelensky (not Putin) a “petulant child” who was “responsible for a million deaths”.
    In Kirk’s defence, while admitting it’s likely to be the worst thing he’s on record as saying, that was on the day of the first disasterous meeting between the two leaders in the White House, and he was joining in with a Twitter pile-on.

    I’ll keep defending Charlie Kirk on here, because he was at his heart a good man who didn’t deserve to suffer his fate, and that if we were all to be judged by our worst online comments then the world would not be a better place.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,433

    Urgent review ordered into asylum seeker taxi costs

    One asylum seeker told the BBC he had taken a 250-mile journey to visit a GP, with the driver telling him the cost to the Home Office was £600.

    Asylum seekers are issued with a bus pass for one return journey per week, but for any other necessary travel, such as a doctor's appointment, taxis are called.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2j3regpdno

    "Labour are writing a blank cheque for illegal immigration while services for hard-working families are strained."

    That's a disastrous narrative for Labour.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,142
    edited September 24
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I really wish the British media would focus on the Russian shithousery than Charlie Kirk and Jimmy Kimmel.

    In that context, it’s worth noting that Kirk called Zelensky (not Putin) a “petulant child” who was “responsible for a million deaths”.
    In Kirk’s defence, while admitting it’s likely to be the worst thing he’s on record as saying, that was on the day of the first disasterous meeting between the two leaders in the White House, and he was joining in with a Twitter pile-on.

    I’ll keep defending Charlie Kirk on here, because he was at his heart a good man who didn’t deserve to suffer his fate, and that if we were all to be judged by our worst online comments then the world would not be a better place.
    So you’re fine with him saying ‘If I see a Black pilot, I’m going to be like, boy, I hope he’s qualified’?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,827
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I really wish the British media would focus on the Russian shithousery than Charlie Kirk and Jimmy Kimmel.

    In that context, it’s worth noting that Kirk called Zelensky (not Putin) a “petulant child” who was “responsible for a million deaths”.
    In Kirk’s defence, while admitting it’s likely to be the worst thing he’s on record as saying, that was on the day of the first disasterous meeting between the two leaders in the White House, and he was joining in with a Twitter pile-on.

    I’ll keep defending Charlie Kirk on here, because he was at his heart a good man who didn’t deserve to suffer his fate, and that if we were all to be judged by our worst online comments then the world would not be a better place.
    He certainly didn’t deserve what happened to him.
    I make no judgment about whether he was good or bad as a person.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,398
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    55% jeez.

    Should be 95% if anyone’s studied history.
    Just because Donald Trump says it, doesn’t make it automatically wrong.

    In other news, at least three Russian O&G facilities have a smoking problem at the moment, the fuel shortages are now not far from Moscow, the Black Sea is undefendable, as is Crimea, and Russia is basically out of air defences except for central Moscow.

    The polling was before Trump’s comments.
    Which makes it even worse.

    “Should we shoot down military aircraft from an enemy nation who bust our airspace?” should be damn near a 100% answer.

    Why do they think we have those Typhoons at Lossiemouth and Conningsby?
    We didn’t shoot down intruders during the Cold War.

    What do we gain from doing it now?

    The maths back then said that escorting them was a better idea. If they kept on going deeper and deeper, one of the escorts would be directly behind them - which meant the Soviet pilots knew they were a second or 2 away from death.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,270
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I really wish the British media would focus on the Russian shithousery than Charlie Kirk and Jimmy Kimmel.

    In that context, it’s worth noting that Kirk called Zelensky (not Putin) a “petulant child” who was “responsible for a million deaths”.
    In Kirk’s defence, while admitting it’s likely to be the worst thing he’s on record as saying, that was on the day of the first disasterous meeting between the two leaders in the White House, and he was joining in with a Twitter pile-on.

    I’ll keep defending Charlie Kirk on here, because he was at his heart a good man who didn’t deserve to suffer his fate, and that if we were all to be judged by our worst online comments then the world would not be a better place.
    He certainly didn’t deserve what happened to him.
    I make no judgment about whether he was good or bad as a person.
    The more you see of him, the more you see that he was a good person, genuinely engaged in the youth movement and willing to talk to anyone.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,912

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I really wish the British media would focus on the Russian shithousery than Charlie Kirk and Jimmy Kimmel.

    In that context, it’s worth noting that Kirk called Zelensky (not Putin) a “petulant child” who was “responsible for a million deaths”.
    In Kirk’s defence, while admitting it’s likely to be the worst thing he’s on record as saying, that was on the day of the first disasterous meeting between the two leaders in the White House, and he was joining in with a Twitter pile-on.

    I’ll keep defending Charlie Kirk on here, because he was at his heart a good man who didn’t deserve to suffer his fate, and that if we were all to be judged by our worst online comments then the world would not be a better place.
    So you’re fine with him saying ‘If I see a Black pilot, I’m going to be like, boy, I hope he’s qualified’?
    I don't agree that anyone deserves to die for any reason. It doesn't excuse him if some of his outrageous views though. I feel sorry for his wife and kids and other family, but as far as his right wing hangers on including trump and vance are concerned, they are just evil.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,270

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I really wish the British media would focus on the Russian shithousery than Charlie Kirk and Jimmy Kimmel.

    In that context, it’s worth noting that Kirk called Zelensky (not Putin) a “petulant child” who was “responsible for a million deaths”.
    In Kirk’s defence, while admitting it’s likely to be the worst thing he’s on record as saying, that was on the day of the first disasterous meeting between the two leaders in the White House, and he was joining in with a Twitter pile-on.

    I’ll keep defending Charlie Kirk on here, because he was at his heart a good man who didn’t deserve to suffer his fate, and that if we were all to be judged by our worst online comments then the world would not be a better place.
    So you’re fine with him saying ‘If I see a Black pilot, I’m going to be like, boy, I hope he’s qualified’?
    Video source for that quote?

    Almost every negative quote about Kirk since his death has been so far out of context, that unless it’s on his own Twitter account or on a video that contains a minute either side of the contentious quote, it’s almost certainly bollocks that would be libellous were he to be alive.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,523
    Scott_xP said:

    @JoeCookJ

    Exc: Sky News understands the Arena and Convention Centre Liverpool was unaware of any event booked on the dates of the conference.

    ACC spox said: "All event enquiries are handled in strict confidence"

    Corbyn's spox says he's "assured it has been booked"

    We didn't so much dodge a bullet as the output of a gatling gun. Anyone that voted for this buffoon should really hold their head in shame.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,827

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I really wish the British media would focus on the Russian shithousery than Charlie Kirk and Jimmy Kimmel.

    In that context, it’s worth noting that Kirk called Zelensky (not Putin) a “petulant child” who was “responsible for a million deaths”.
    In Kirk’s defence, while admitting it’s likely to be the worst thing he’s on record as saying, that was on the day of the first disasterous meeting between the two leaders in the White House, and he was joining in with a Twitter pile-on.

    I’ll keep defending Charlie Kirk on here, because he was at his heart a good man who didn’t deserve to suffer his fate, and that if we were all to be judged by our worst online comments then the world would not be a better place.
    So you’re fine with him saying ‘If I see a Black pilot, I’m going to be like, boy, I hope he’s qualified’?
    He said some shitty things like that, that’s for sure, and was a relentless advocate for load more stuff that I very strongly disagree with.
    But I’m not going to pass a final moral judgment on someone, gunned down at that age, who was not really a Trump or a Miller (for whom I’m quite prepared to do so).
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,912
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I really wish the British media would focus on the Russian shithousery than Charlie Kirk and Jimmy Kimmel.

    In that context, it’s worth noting that Kirk called Zelensky (not Putin) a “petulant child” who was “responsible for a million deaths”.
    In Kirk’s defence, while admitting it’s likely to be the worst thing he’s on record as saying, that was on the day of the first disasterous meeting between the two leaders in the White House, and he was joining in with a Twitter pile-on.

    I’ll keep defending Charlie Kirk on here, because he was at his heart a good man who didn’t deserve to suffer his fate, and that if we were all to be judged by our worst online comments then the world would not be a better place.
    I'll tell you what would make the world a better place, stop posting shit online. If you have something to say, do it in an interview so that you can be challenged.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,691

    FPT on pb being ahead of the curve.

    Something else we picked up on before the herd is that President Trump's demands that Big Pharma charge their lowest prices to Americans would be bad news for the NHS.

    I think I was the first person on here to question that... :)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,270

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I really wish the British media would focus on the Russian shithousery than Charlie Kirk and Jimmy Kimmel.

    In that context, it’s worth noting that Kirk called Zelensky (not Putin) a “petulant child” who was “responsible for a million deaths”.
    In Kirk’s defence, while admitting it’s likely to be the worst thing he’s on record as saying, that was on the day of the first disasterous meeting between the two leaders in the White House, and he was joining in with a Twitter pile-on.

    I’ll keep defending Charlie Kirk on here, because he was at his heart a good man who didn’t deserve to suffer his fate, and that if we were all to be judged by our worst online comments then the world would not be a better place.
    I'll tell you what would make the world a better place, stop posting shit online. If you have something to say, do it in an interview so that you can be challenged.
    Indeed, and almost no-one in the US was more prepared to do just that than Charlie Kirk.

    Which is why he was killed.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,691
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I really wish the British media would focus on the Russian shithousery than Charlie Kirk and Jimmy Kimmel.

    In that context, it’s worth noting that Kirk called Zelensky (not Putin) a “petulant child” who was “responsible for a million deaths”.
    In Kirk’s defence, while admitting it’s likely to be the worst thing he’s on record as saying, that was on the day of the first disasterous meeting between the two leaders in the White House, and he was joining in with a Twitter pile-on.

    (Snip)
    You are pro-Ukraine, yet you seem to be defending Kirk over joining the crass 'pile-on' by Trump and the GOP.

    That makes no sense. If Kirk was such an angel as you make out, surely he would have criticised his own side over the performance shitbaggery they were doing against Zelensky?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,060
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I really wish the British media would focus on the Russian shithousery than Charlie Kirk and Jimmy Kimmel.

    In that context, it’s worth noting that Kirk called Zelensky (not Putin) a “petulant child” who was “responsible for a million deaths”.
    In Kirk’s defence, while admitting it’s likely to be the worst thing he’s on record as saying, that was on the day of the first disasterous meeting between the two leaders in the White House, and he was joining in with a Twitter pile-on.

    I’ll keep defending Charlie Kirk on here, because he was at his heart a good man who didn’t deserve to suffer his fate, and that if we were all to be judged by our worst online comments then the world would not be a better place.
    I'll tell you what would make the world a better place, stop posting shit online. If you have something to say, do it in an interview so that you can be challenged.
    Indeed, and almost no-one in the US was more prepared to do just that than Charlie Kirk.

    Which is why he was killed.
    That someone is willing to debate and be challenged and be held to account is all admirable - but not necessarily correlated with holding acceptable or peaceable or temperate views.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,270

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I really wish the British media would focus on the Russian shithousery than Charlie Kirk and Jimmy Kimmel.

    In that context, it’s worth noting that Kirk called Zelensky (not Putin) a “petulant child” who was “responsible for a million deaths”.
    In Kirk’s defence, while admitting it’s likely to be the worst thing he’s on record as saying, that was on the day of the first disasterous meeting between the two leaders in the White House, and he was joining in with a Twitter pile-on.

    I’ll keep defending Charlie Kirk on here, because he was at his heart a good man who didn’t deserve to suffer his fate, and that if we were all to be judged by our worst online comments then the world would not be a better place.
    So you’re fine with him saying ‘If I see a Black pilot, I’m going to be like, boy, I hope he’s qualified’?
    Context for that quote:

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/charlie-kirk-black-pilots/

    It was at best a joke, and at worst an aside, in the middle of a discussion about companies prioritising DEI criteria over ability when hiring, in the context of companies in the US who were changing eligibility criteria based on race such that young white male pilot school graduates were finding it impossible to be recruited by airlines.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 40,419
    RefUK are going to DOGE the UK !!!

    @cnn.com‬

    Hundreds of federal employees who lost their jobs in Elon Musk’s cost-cutting blitz are being asked to return to work.

    https://bsky.app/profile/cnn.com/post/3lzlucmbw6r2j
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,270
    edited September 24

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I really wish the British media would focus on the Russian shithousery than Charlie Kirk and Jimmy Kimmel.

    In that context, it’s worth noting that Kirk called Zelensky (not Putin) a “petulant child” who was “responsible for a million deaths”.
    In Kirk’s defence, while admitting it’s likely to be the worst thing he’s on record as saying, that was on the day of the first disasterous meeting between the two leaders in the White House, and he was joining in with a Twitter pile-on.

    (Snip)
    You are pro-Ukraine, yet you seem to be defending Kirk over joining the crass 'pile-on' by Trump and the GOP.

    That makes no sense. If Kirk was such an angel as you make out, surely he would have criticised his own side over the performance shitbaggery they were doing against Zelensky?
    I never said he was an angel, I said that to define a man by his worst ever Twitter comment would be a severe disservice to his memory.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 34,881
    Talking of forces of Putin.

    The BBC really are useless.

    Nick Ferrari took down Farage on LBC with a gotcha that has Farage pleading the 5th as far as Trump's link between Paracetamol/ Tylenol and autism is concerned. Farage even denied science by suggesting scientists didn't realise how dangerous Thalidomide was until we realised it was, implying Trump may have a point about Paracetamol. It has been the top story on LBC all day.

    I was thus interested to see how BBC PM broached a clear error by Farage. The answer is it didn't. The story didn't make the programme, although they did find a New Statesman article that hints at a huge bust-up between Burnham and Starmer.

    So Farage f**** up and the BBC bury it.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,104
    edited September 24
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I really wish the British media would focus on the Russian shithousery than Charlie Kirk and Jimmy Kimmel.

    In that context, it’s worth noting that Kirk called Zelensky (not Putin) a “petulant child” who was “responsible for a million deaths”.
    In Kirk’s defence, while admitting it’s likely to be the worst thing he’s on record as saying, that was on the day of the first disasterous meeting between the two leaders in the White House, and he was joining in with a Twitter pile-on.

    I’ll keep defending Charlie Kirk on here, because he was at his heart a good man who didn’t deserve to suffer his fate, and that if we were all to be judged by our worst online comments then the world would not be a better place.
    What a bonkers excuse. "My mate Trump was also blaming Zelensky for all the death so Charlie was right to as well".
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 3,187
    I see Nige is continuing down the MAGA rabbit hole.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/24/farage-refuses-criticise-trump-paracetamol-health-experts-dismiss-autism-claims

    "When Farage was asked if he would side with medical experts who say it is dangerous to make the link, he added: “I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t. When it comes to science, I don’t side with anybody, right? You know? I don’t side with anybody, because science is never settled. We should remember that.”

    I think (hope) this will become a real weakness. Drinking the RFK/Trump kool aid on health and medicine is not going to persuade many of the great British public of your prime ministerial credentials - at least, I hope not.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,104
    edited September 24
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I really wish the British media would focus on the Russian shithousery than Charlie Kirk and Jimmy Kimmel.

    In that context, it’s worth noting that Kirk called Zelensky (not Putin) a “petulant child” who was “responsible for a million deaths”.
    In Kirk’s defence, while admitting it’s likely to be the worst thing he’s on record as saying, that was on the day of the first disasterous meeting between the two leaders in the White House, and he was joining in with a Twitter pile-on.

    I’ll keep defending Charlie Kirk on here, because he was at his heart a good man who didn’t deserve to suffer his fate, and that if we were all to be judged by our worst online comments then the world would not be a better place.
    So you’re fine with him saying ‘If I see a Black pilot, I’m going to be like, boy, I hope he’s qualified’?
    Context for that quote:

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/charlie-kirk-black-pilots/

    It was at best a joke, and at worst an aside, in the middle of a discussion about companies prioritising DEI criteria over ability when hiring, in the context of companies in the US who were changing eligibility criteria based on race such that young white male pilot school graduates were finding it impossible to be recruited by airlines.
    This would carry more weight if you hadn't spent the last few days making a fuss about what Jimmy Kimmel said.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,270
    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I really wish the British media would focus on the Russian shithousery than Charlie Kirk and Jimmy Kimmel.

    In that context, it’s worth noting that Kirk called Zelensky (not Putin) a “petulant child” who was “responsible for a million deaths”.
    In Kirk’s defence, while admitting it’s likely to be the worst thing he’s on record as saying, that was on the day of the first disasterous meeting between the two leaders in the White House, and he was joining in with a Twitter pile-on.

    I’ll keep defending Charlie Kirk on here, because he was at his heart a good man who didn’t deserve to suffer his fate, and that if we were all to be judged by our worst online comments then the world would not be a better place.
    What a bonkers excuse. "My mate Trump was also blaming Zelensky for all the death so Charlie was right to as well".
    Nope, that’s not what I said.

    I said that it was unfortunate that he joined in the pile-on, and that he was a good man whose legacy shouldn’t be defined by the worst thing he ever wrote on Twitter.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 3,187

    Talking of forces of Putin.

    The BBC really are useless.

    Nick Ferrari took down Farage on LBC with a gotcha that has Farage pleading the 5th as far as Trump's link between Paracetamol/ Tylenol and autism is concerned. Farage even denied science by suggesting scientists didn't realise how dangerous Thalidomide was until we realised it was, implying Trump may have a point about Paracetamol. It has been the top story on LBC all day.

    I was thus interested to see how BBC PM broached a clear error by Farage. The answer is it didn't. The story didn't make the programme, although they did find a New Statesman article that hints at a huge bust-up between Burnham and Starmer.

    So Farage f**** up and the BBC bury it.

    The Beeb seems to be paralysed. Rabbit meets cobra.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,691
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I really wish the British media would focus on the Russian shithousery than Charlie Kirk and Jimmy Kimmel.

    In that context, it’s worth noting that Kirk called Zelensky (not Putin) a “petulant child” who was “responsible for a million deaths”.
    In Kirk’s defence, while admitting it’s likely to be the worst thing he’s on record as saying, that was on the day of the first disasterous meeting between the two leaders in the White House, and he was joining in with a Twitter pile-on.

    (Snip)
    You are pro-Ukraine, yet you seem to be defending Kirk over joining the crass 'pile-on' by Trump and the GOP.

    That makes no sense. If Kirk was such an angel as you make out, surely he would have criticised his own side over the performance shitbaggery they were doing against Zelensky?
    I never said he was an angel, I said that to define a man by his worst ever Twitter comment would be a severe disservice to his memory.
    You are trying to define Kimmel by one comment- whose inaccuracy was arguable.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 32,840

    FPT on pb being ahead of the curve.

    Something else we picked up on before the herd is that President Trump's demands that Big Pharma charge their lowest prices to Americans would be bad news for the NHS.

    It is not necessarily bad news for the NHS. It could lead to accelerated switching over to cheaper generic alternatives and rejecting overpriced US drugs.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 32,840

    I see Nige is continuing down the MAGA rabbit hole.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/24/farage-refuses-criticise-trump-paracetamol-health-experts-dismiss-autism-claims

    "When Farage was asked if he would side with medical experts who say it is dangerous to make the link, he added: “I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t. When it comes to science, I don’t side with anybody, right? You know? I don’t side with anybody, because science is never settled. We should remember that.”

    I think (hope) this will become a real weakness. Drinking the RFK/Trump kool aid on health and medicine is not going to persuade many of the great British public of your prime ministerial credentials - at least, I hope not.

    I thought he handled it well. He said nothing more or less than Starmer or Badenoch would say, but said it better.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 8,200

    Talking of forces of Putin.

    The BBC really are useless.

    Nick Ferrari took down Farage on LBC with a gotcha that has Farage pleading the 5th as far as Trump's link between Paracetamol/ Tylenol and autism is concerned. Farage even denied science by suggesting scientists didn't realise how dangerous Thalidomide was until we realised it was, implying Trump may have a point about Paracetamol. It has been the top story on LBC all day.

    I was thus interested to see how BBC PM broached a clear error by Farage. The answer is it didn't. The story didn't make the programme, although they did find a New Statesman article that hints at a huge bust-up between Burnham and Starmer.

    So Farage f**** up and the BBC bury it.

    But don’t worry, they can spend the best part of a day blithering on about Jimmy Kimmel.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 57,270

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I really wish the British media would focus on the Russian shithousery than Charlie Kirk and Jimmy Kimmel.

    In that context, it’s worth noting that Kirk called Zelensky (not Putin) a “petulant child” who was “responsible for a million deaths”.
    In Kirk’s defence, while admitting it’s likely to be the worst thing he’s on record as saying, that was on the day of the first disasterous meeting between the two leaders in the White House, and he was joining in with a Twitter pile-on.

    (Snip)
    You are pro-Ukraine, yet you seem to be defending Kirk over joining the crass 'pile-on' by Trump and the GOP.

    That makes no sense. If Kirk was such an angel as you make out, surely he would have criticised his own side over the performance shitbaggery they were doing against Zelensky?
    I never said he was an angel, I said that to define a man by his worst ever Twitter comment would be a severe disservice to his memory.
    You are trying to define Kimmel by one comment- whose inaccuracy was arguable.
    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I really wish the British media would focus on the Russian shithousery than Charlie Kirk and Jimmy Kimmel.

    In that context, it’s worth noting that Kirk called Zelensky (not Putin) a “petulant child” who was “responsible for a million deaths”.
    In Kirk’s defence, while admitting it’s likely to be the worst thing he’s on record as saying, that was on the day of the first disasterous meeting between the two leaders in the White House, and he was joining in with a Twitter pile-on.

    I’ll keep defending Charlie Kirk on here, because he was at his heart a good man who didn’t deserve to suffer his fate, and that if we were all to be judged by our worst online comments then the world would not be a better place.
    So you’re fine with him saying ‘If I see a Black pilot, I’m going to be like, boy, I hope he’s qualified’?
    Context for that quote:

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/charlie-kirk-black-pilots/

    It was at best a joke, and at worst an aside, in the middle of a discussion about companies prioritising DEI criteria over ability when hiring, in the context of companies in the US who were changing eligibility criteria based on race such that young white male pilot school graduates were finding it impossible to be recruited by airlines.
    This would carry more weight if you hadn't spent the last few days making a fuss about what Jimmy Kimmel said.
    Yes I hold broadcast TV to higher standards than random podcasts.

    You should too.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,074
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I really wish the British media would focus on the Russian shithousery than Charlie Kirk and Jimmy Kimmel.

    In that context, it’s worth noting that Kirk called Zelensky (not Putin) a “petulant child” who was “responsible for a million deaths”.
    In Kirk’s defence, while admitting it’s likely to be the worst thing he’s on record as saying, that was on the day of the first disasterous meeting between the two leaders in the White House, and he was joining in with a Twitter pile-on.

    I’ll keep defending Charlie Kirk on here, because he was at his heart a good man who didn’t deserve to suffer his fate, and that if we were all to be judged by our worst online comments then the world would not be a better place.
    Even a 'bad man' doesn't deserve to be murdered.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,921

    Urgent review ordered into asylum seeker taxi costs

    One asylum seeker told the BBC he had taken a 250-mile journey to visit a GP, with the driver telling him the cost to the Home Office was £600.

    Asylum seekers are issued with a bus pass for one return journey per week, but for any other necessary travel, such as a doctor's appointment, taxis are called.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2j3regpdno

    How did this ever come to be approved?
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,954
    Andy_JS said:

    Urgent review ordered into asylum seeker taxi costs

    One asylum seeker told the BBC he had taken a 250-mile journey to visit a GP, with the driver telling him the cost to the Home Office was £600.

    Asylum seekers are issued with a bus pass for one return journey per week, but for any other necessary travel, such as a doctor's appointment, taxis are called.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2j3regpdno

    How did this ever come to be approved?
    Insane home office rules apparently.
  • FPT on pb being ahead of the curve.

    Something else we picked up on before the herd is that President Trump's demands that Big Pharma charge their lowest prices to Americans would be bad news for the NHS.

    It is not necessarily bad news for the NHS. It could lead to accelerated switching over to cheaper generic alternatives and rejecting overpriced US drugs.
    Trouble is most medical breakthroughs come from America because that is where the money is (thanks to overcharging).
  • How Apple Designed iPhone 17 Pro
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F330LdV33F4
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 68,327
    Andy_JS said:

    Urgent review ordered into asylum seeker taxi costs

    One asylum seeker told the BBC he had taken a 250-mile journey to visit a GP, with the driver telling him the cost to the Home Office was £600.

    Asylum seekers are issued with a bus pass for one return journey per week, but for any other necessary travel, such as a doctor's appointment, taxis are called.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2j3regpdno

    How did this ever come to be approved?
    250 miles to the GP's???

    Was the GP back in France?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 32,840

    FPT on pb being ahead of the curve.

    Something else we picked up on before the herd is that President Trump's demands that Big Pharma charge their lowest prices to Americans would be bad news for the NHS.

    It is not necessarily bad news for the NHS. It could lead to accelerated switching over to cheaper generic alternatives and rejecting overpriced US drugs.
    Trouble is most medical breakthroughs come from America because that is where the money is (thanks to overcharging).
    Not if they run out of customers.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,208
    edited September 24
    Andy_JS said:

    Urgent review ordered into asylum seeker taxi costs

    One asylum seeker told the BBC he had taken a 250-mile journey to visit a GP, with the driver telling him the cost to the Home Office was £600.

    Asylum seekers are issued with a bus pass for one return journey per week, but for any other necessary travel, such as a doctor's appointment, taxis are called.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2j3regpdno

    How did this ever come to be approved?
    It probably made sense before they shipped asylum seekers round the country, and no-one had thought very far in advance.

    ETA the story comes from a BBC investigation so one of us should listen to the programme.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,036
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I really wish the British media would focus on the Russian shithousery than Charlie Kirk and Jimmy Kimmel.

    In that context, it’s worth noting that Kirk called Zelensky (not Putin) a “petulant child” who was “responsible for a million deaths”.
    In Kirk’s defence, while admitting it’s likely to be the worst thing he’s on record as saying, that was on the day of the first disasterous meeting between the two leaders in the White House, and he was joining in with a Twitter pile-on.

    I’ll keep defending Charlie Kirk on here, because he was at his heart a good man who didn’t deserve to suffer his fate, and that if we were all to be judged by our worst online comments then the world would not be a better place.
    So you’re fine with him saying ‘If I see a Black pilot, I’m going to be like, boy, I hope he’s qualified’?
    Context for that quote:

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/charlie-kirk-black-pilots/

    It was at best a joke, and at worst an aside, in the middle of a discussion about companies prioritising DEI criteria over ability when hiring, in the context of companies in the US who were changing eligibility criteria based on race such that young white male pilot school graduates were finding it impossible to be recruited by airlines.
    Wow, some joke. Hilarious. The 1970s called, they want their humour back. Stop defending this guy. He didn't deserve to get shot, it was an absolute tragedy and an awful thing, but it doesn't excuse some of the appalling shite he came out with while alive.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,476
    edited September 24
    The BBC should be re-named the RBC Reform Broadcast Corporation.

    They’ll only have themselves to blame if Reform get in and finish them off .
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 32,840
    The migrant at the centre of the Epping protests has been found guilty:

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/who-were-the-real-bigots-in-epping/
  • Andy_JS said:

    Urgent review ordered into asylum seeker taxi costs

    One asylum seeker told the BBC he had taken a 250-mile journey to visit a GP, with the driver telling him the cost to the Home Office was £600.

    Asylum seekers are issued with a bus pass for one return journey per week, but for any other necessary travel, such as a doctor's appointment, taxis are called.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2j3regpdno

    How did this ever come to be approved?
    It probably made sense before they shipped asylum seekers round the country, and no-one had thought very far in advance.

    ETA the story comes from a BBC investigation so one of us should listen to the programme.
    Especially when coupled with the "don't process anyone because we are sending them all to Rwanda, honest" policy.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,691

    The migrant at the centre of the Epping protests has been found guilty:

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/who-were-the-real-bigots-in-epping/

    Yes, there were many bigots protesting outside the hotel. And many wife-beaters and general ner-do-wells as well.

    Your point is?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,691
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I really wish the British media would focus on the Russian shithousery than Charlie Kirk and Jimmy Kimmel.

    In that context, it’s worth noting that Kirk called Zelensky (not Putin) a “petulant child” who was “responsible for a million deaths”.
    In Kirk’s defence, while admitting it’s likely to be the worst thing he’s on record as saying, that was on the day of the first disasterous meeting between the two leaders in the White House, and he was joining in with a Twitter pile-on.

    (Snip)
    You are pro-Ukraine, yet you seem to be defending Kirk over joining the crass 'pile-on' by Trump and the GOP.

    That makes no sense. If Kirk was such an angel as you make out, surely he would have criticised his own side over the performance shitbaggery they were doing against Zelensky?
    I never said he was an angel, I said that to define a man by his worst ever Twitter comment would be a severe disservice to his memory.
    You are trying to define Kimmel by one comment- whose inaccuracy was arguable.
    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I really wish the British media would focus on the Russian shithousery than Charlie Kirk and Jimmy Kimmel.

    In that context, it’s worth noting that Kirk called Zelensky (not Putin) a “petulant child” who was “responsible for a million deaths”.
    In Kirk’s defence, while admitting it’s likely to be the worst thing he’s on record as saying, that was on the day of the first disasterous meeting between the two leaders in the White House, and he was joining in with a Twitter pile-on.

    I’ll keep defending Charlie Kirk on here, because he was at his heart a good man who didn’t deserve to suffer his fate, and that if we were all to be judged by our worst online comments then the world would not be a better place.
    So you’re fine with him saying ‘If I see a Black pilot, I’m going to be like, boy, I hope he’s qualified’?
    Context for that quote:

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/charlie-kirk-black-pilots/

    It was at best a joke, and at worst an aside, in the middle of a discussion about companies prioritising DEI criteria over ability when hiring, in the context of companies in the US who were changing eligibility criteria based on race such that young white male pilot school graduates were finding it impossible to be recruited by airlines.
    This would carry more weight if you hadn't spent the last few days making a fuss about what Jimmy Kimmel said.
    Yes I hold broadcast TV to higher standards than random podcasts.

    You should too.
    He was not a 'random' podcast, which is why he so dominates your brain, and why he has nearly reached beatification status amongst the right in the USA.

    I want my media to be as truthful and open as possible; preferably giving different sides to a story. That's a big ask, but it can occur. Kemmel did not do it; Kirk certainly did not. He was a propogandist, and you like him because you agreed with, or excuse, his propaganda.

    Even when he was against Ukraine.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,600

    Urgent review ordered into asylum seeker taxi costs

    One asylum seeker told the BBC he had taken a 250-mile journey to visit a GP, with the driver telling him the cost to the Home Office was £600.

    Asylum seekers are issued with a bus pass for one return journey per week, but for any other necessary travel, such as a doctor's appointment, taxis are called.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2j3regpdno

    This is classic depressing politics. Facts which are perfectly well known to the Home Office are made public. small Outcry. Enquiry. Move on.

    Either there is wrong stuff and government should have acted to deal with it because of the ordinary values of a society. Or its generally all fine and all this is performative nonsense.

    Good government generally does the right thing regardless of whether anyone is looking.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,681
    Andy_JS said:

    Urgent review ordered into asylum seeker taxi costs

    One asylum seeker told the BBC he had taken a 250-mile journey to visit a GP, with the driver telling him the cost to the Home Office was £600.

    Asylum seekers are issued with a bus pass for one return journey per week, but for any other necessary travel, such as a doctor's appointment, taxis are called.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2j3regpdno

    How did this ever come to be approved?
    THe BBC can't even accurately report on its own journalism.
    It's just after 33m 30s in the radio programme, it was for a hospital (not GP) appointment because the patient had been moved 250 miles from their previous accommodation.

    This has happened because of deliberate govt policy to slow down processing of asylum applications leading to the backlog and the huge increase of people in temporary accommodation. The longer you delay decisions on asylum the greater the likelihood that they will develop ties to the community, have children, become ill and so have grounds for appeal.
    Anyone who voted Conservative (probably unwittingly) voted for the current situation
    see the stats here https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-uks-asylum-backlog/ if that isn't what you wanted then you should have voted for Brown and Miliband.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 67,763
    edited September 24
    What on earth is going on in No 10

    Sky News

    Cabinet minister Bridget Phillipson has accused Number 10 of carrying out "sexist briefings" against her.

    The education secretary, who is running against Lucy Powell to be deputy leader of the Labour Party, has widely been seen as Downing Street's preferred candidate.

    But Phillipson has denied this is the case - and has said that negative briefing about her has led to "nonsense... written in the papers".

    Speaking to Matt Chorley on BBC Radio 5 Live, the deputy leadership hopeful was asked if she had been on the receiving end of sexist briefings.

    "Yeah, completely," she said. "But you know, that's life." She added: "I've been underestimated most of my life, I'll just continue getting on and doing what I'm doing, not worrying too much about some of the nonsense that gets written in the papers. But I do slightly have to laugh because there's this idea swirling around somehow that I'm Number 10's preferred candidate for all of this. I'm not quite sure that's what you and many colleagues in the media have been saying in recent months with all of this negativity and nonsense that I've faced. So there's a certain irony, I would say in some of the way that this is being approached."

    Pushed on whether she believes that Number 10 has spent months briefing against her, she responded:

    "That's what lots of people have been writing for months. So, others can come to their own conclusions"

    There have been rumours that there is a sexist culture within Downing Street, with former chief of staff Sue Gray raising the issue repeatedly before she left the role.

    Asked if this is a fair representation of Sir Keir Starmer's operation, Phillipson responded that people have

    "got to get better at working together as a team in parliament but also uniting our party and movement".

    She added: "That's what I would bring in terms of my ability to unite the party, and to allow us to get into it the strongest possible position for the really vital elections we've got coming up next May."

    Phillipson is running against Powell for the role left vacant by the departure of Angela Rayner, who quit after she was found to have breached the ministerial code.

    A new deputy leader will be announced on 25 October.

    Downing Street has been approached for a comment.

  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 6,794

    Talking of forces of Putin.

    The BBC really are useless.

    Nick Ferrari took down Farage on LBC with a gotcha that has Farage pleading the 5th as far as Trump's link between Paracetamol/ Tylenol and autism is concerned. Farage even denied science by suggesting scientists didn't realise how dangerous Thalidomide was until we realised it was, implying Trump may have a point about Paracetamol. It has been the top story on LBC all day.

    I was thus interested to see how BBC PM broached a clear error by Farage. The answer is it didn't. The story didn't make the programme, although they did find a New Statesman article that hints at a huge bust-up between Burnham and Starmer.

    So Farage f**** up and the BBC bury it.

    The Beeb seems to be paralysed. Rabbit meets cobra.
    The BBC are playing the long game. If they can help engineer a right wing dictatorship, they will be the state broadcaster and all the other broadcasters will be closed down. The licence fee will be increased to £1,984 per year.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,600

    I see Nige is continuing down the MAGA rabbit hole.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/24/farage-refuses-criticise-trump-paracetamol-health-experts-dismiss-autism-claims

    "When Farage was asked if he would side with medical experts who say it is dangerous to make the link, he added: “I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t. When it comes to science, I don’t side with anybody, right? You know? I don’t side with anybody, because science is never settled. We should remember that.”

    I think (hope) this will become a real weakness. Drinking the RFK/Trump kool aid on health and medicine is not going to persuade many of the great British public of your prime ministerial credentials - at least, I hope not.

    Hiding behind the obvious truth, at least to a philosopher of science who has read Hume and Popper, that science is never settled isn't good enough. It invites curiousity about whether the adult Farage has ever taken an antibiotic, had a flu or covid injection, acted on medical advice, been cautious about ingesting cyanide, relied on the physics by which areoplanes can fly (he has reasons for doubting that one), deiced a windscreen etc.
  • Good for Boris and let's hope Badenoch seizes her chance to condemn Farage at her conference
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,066
    Sandpit said:

    Eabhal said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I really wish the British media would focus on the Russian shithousery than Charlie Kirk and Jimmy Kimmel.

    In that context, it’s worth noting that Kirk called Zelensky (not Putin) a “petulant child” who was “responsible for a million deaths”.
    In Kirk’s defence, while admitting it’s likely to be the worst thing he’s on record as saying, that was on the day of the first disasterous meeting between the two leaders in the White House, and he was joining in with a Twitter pile-on.

    I’ll keep defending Charlie Kirk on here, because he was at his heart a good man who didn’t deserve to suffer his fate, and that if we were all to be judged by our worst online comments then the world would not be a better place.
    What a bonkers excuse. "My mate Trump was also blaming Zelensky for all the death so Charlie was right to as well".
    Nope, that’s not what I said.

    I said that it was unfortunate that he joined in the pile-on, and that he was a good man whose legacy shouldn’t be defined by the worst thing he ever wrote on Twitter.
    "a good man"?

    Nah. He was a racist, misogynistic shit who deserved to be shouted down, not shot up.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,600

    What on earth is going on in No 10

    Sky News

    Cabinet minister Bridget Phillipson has accused Number 10 of carrying out "sexist briefings" against her.

    The education secretary, who is running against Lucy Powell to be deputy leader of the Labour Party, has widely been seen as Downing Street's preferred candidate.

    But Phillipson has denied this is the case - and has said that negative briefing about her has led to "nonsense... written in the papers".

    Speaking to Matt Chorley on BBC Radio 5 Live, the deputy leadership hopeful was asked if she had been on the receiving end of sexist briefings.

    "Yeah, completely," she said. "But you know, that's life." She added: "I've been underestimated most of my life, I'll just continue getting on and doing what I'm doing, not worrying too much about some of the nonsense that gets written in the papers. But I do slightly have to laugh because there's this idea swirling around somehow that I'm Number 10's preferred candidate for all of this. I'm not quite sure that's what you and many colleagues in the media have been saying in recent months with all of this negativity and nonsense that I've faced. So there's a certain irony, I would say in some of the way that this is being approached."

    Pushed on whether she believes that Number 10 has spent months briefing against her, she responded:

    "That's what lots of people have been writing for months. So, others can come to their own conclusions"

    There have been rumours that there is a sexist culture within Downing Street, with former chief of staff Sue Gray raising the issue repeatedly before she left the role.

    Asked if this is a fair representation of Sir Keir Starmer's operation, Phillipson responded that people have

    "got to get better at working together as a team in parliament but also uniting our party and movement".

    She added: "That's what I would bring in terms of my ability to unite the party, and to allow us to get into it the strongest possible position for the really vital elections we've got coming up next May."

    Phillipson is running against Powell for the role left vacant by the departure of Angela Rayner, who quit after she was found to have breached the ministerial code.

    A new deputy leader will be announced on 25 October.

    Downing Street has been approached for a comment.

    There is an operation, hopeless I should have thought, to present the government candidate as some sort of radical outsider. It was a terrible idea from the outset and has damaged the party.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,205
    edited September 24

    What on earth is going on in No 10

    Cabinet minister Bridget Phillipson has accused Number 10 of carrying out "sexist briefings" against her.

    What is strange is Lucy Powell is the one that got sacked by Starmer, when arguably Philipson is equally useless (but was kept on). You would think it would be Powell that would have an axe to grind. However, its Powell is the preferred choice of #10 and they are briefing against somebody still in cabinet.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 40,419

    What on earth is going on in No 10

    Cabinet minister Bridget Phillipson has accused Number 10 of carrying out "sexist briefings" against her.

    What is strange is Lucy Powell is the one that got sacked by Starmer, when arguably Philipson is equally useless (but was kept on). Now its Powell is the preferred choice of #10 and they are briefing against somebody still in cabinet.
    Powell is a threat. Philipson is not
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 57,398

    Talking of forces of Putin.

    The BBC really are useless.

    Nick Ferrari took down Farage on LBC with a gotcha that has Farage pleading the 5th as far as Trump's link between Paracetamol/ Tylenol and autism is concerned. Farage even denied science by suggesting scientists didn't realise how dangerous Thalidomide was until we realised it was, implying Trump may have a point about Paracetamol. It has been the top story on LBC all day.

    I was thus interested to see how BBC PM broached a clear error by Farage. The answer is it didn't. The story didn't make the programme, although they did find a New Statesman article that hints at a huge bust-up between Burnham and Starmer.

    So Farage f**** up and the BBC bury it.

    The Beeb seems to be paralysed. Rabbit meets cobra.
    The BBC are playing the long game. If they can help engineer a right wing dictatorship, they will be the state broadcaster and all the other broadcasters will be closed down. The licence fee will be increased to £1,984 per year.
    It will be mandatory to be showing the BBC continuously on every telescreen in Airstrip One, right?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,214

    I really wish the British media would focus on the Russian shithousery than Charlie Kirk and Jimmy Kimmel.

    I was surprised no one's been talking about Andy Burnham's take over bid much discussed on todays five o'clock news with Evan Davis. As I see it there are two snags. One is Andy Burnham being seen as the answer and the other are the precedents ... May Johnson Truss and Sunak
This discussion has been closed.