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The challenge for the Conservatives – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,711
edited September 30 in General
The challenge for the Conservatives – politicalbetting.com

The Conservative party is the oldest and most successful party in UK history. The 2024 election was the worst ever in its long history (the previous worst in 1906, they still held on to 156 seats)

Read the full story here

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  • TazTaz Posts: 21,214
    edited September 20
    First unlike the tories
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 1,020
    I always understood that "May he/she live in interesting times" is a blessing to a baby. Makes more sense as a blessing!
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,192
    An odd move by Kemi coming out against a Palestinian state. I can understand her desire to get herself noticed but this would seem a strange choice. One unlikely to be supported even by her dwindling fan base
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,510
    From the BBC:

    A student "overstayer" who repeatedly raped a 12-year-old girl after arranging for taxis to bring her to his flat late at night has been jailed.

    Wisal Ahmad, 30, had been studying in Scotland, but after running out of funds he ended up working in Bradford where he befriended the girl on social media, a court heard.
  • First off, thanks for the entire series.

    One observation on your successes for the 2010-24 government. Both gay marriage and net zero were and are controversial with the base, but not with the public at large. In the old days of big tent parties, that sort of thing was the mark of a confident, successful party, able to reach out to the wider public. Now, parties don't seem capable of that.

    The big tents have collapsed here, much as they have in France, Germany, Spain. America seems to have a different pathology, where parties have drifted from the centre but the strength of the system has kept two parties in place- for now, anyway.

    Question is why? Failings of the old big two? Impossibility of dealing with the times we are in by anybody? A failure of society where none of us is willing to compromise on anything?

    One cheery thought to finish- five or six parties who hate each other is bad enough with a PR election. It turns FPTP into a complete lottery.
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 1,020

    Good morning, everyone.

    Thank goodness, seems Labour may well axe the two child benefit cap.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy917g0420o

    With our ballooning surplus and endlessly overflowing national coffers, I'm ever so grateful they've found a way to finally spend some of our excess cash.

    Not sure why the accountants don't bend the figures to make the deficit at least shrink if not disappear completely. They have plenty of practise in massaging private company accounts. And does anyone believe the figures on their economy from China?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,192

    From the BBC:

    A student "overstayer" who repeatedly raped a 12-year-old girl after arranging for taxis to bring her to his flat late at night has been jailed.

    Wisal Ahmad, 30, had been studying in Scotland, but after running out of funds he ended up working in Bradford where he befriended the girl on social media, a court heard.

    Are we now supposed to hate everyone called Ahmad? Or is this just clickbait for Leon and Max?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,543

    First off, thanks for the entire series.

    One observation on your successes for the 2010-24 government. Both gay marriage and net zero were and are controversial with the base, but not with the public at large. In the old days of big tent parties, that sort of thing was the mark of a confident, successful party, able to reach out to the wider public. Now, parties don't seem capable of that.

    The big tents have collapsed here, much as they have in France, Germany, Spain. America seems to have a different pathology, where parties have drifted from the centre but the strength of the system has kept two parties in place- for now, anyway.

    Question is why? Failings of the old big two? Impossibility of dealing with the times we are in by anybody? A failure of society where none of us is willing to compromise on anything?

    One cheery thought to finish- five or six parties who hate each other is bad enough with a PR election. It turns FPTP into a complete lottery.

    There will be many reasons. But a biggie in my mind is that t'Internet tells far too many people that there are easy solutions to the problems that face us. As an extreme example, why should we look for real solutions, when we can just chuck out the foreigners?
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,854
    Roger said:

    An odd move by Kemi coming out against a Palestinian state. I can understand her desire to get herself noticed but this would seem a strange choice. One unlikely to be supported even by her dwindling fan base

    But strongly supported by the American right who are considering donations to Reform.

    Banning foreign money in British politics is now an urgent priority.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,358
    Good article. The one thing I would add to the point about the party’s much-diminished talent pool is that a lot of the damage was self-inflicted. I think the Tories would be much better placed to plan future strategic positioning if people like Hammond and Gauke had not been forced out in the post-Brexit purification process.
  • Cicero said:

    Roger said:

    An odd move by Kemi coming out against a Palestinian state. I can understand her desire to get herself noticed but this would seem a strange choice. One unlikely to be supported even by her dwindling fan base

    But strongly supported by the American right who are considering donations to Reform.

    Banning foreign money in British politics is now an urgent priority.
    Or maybe provide a coherent opposition which frankly seems 'absent without leave' from our politics as Reform catch the public mood leaving opponents complaining 'its not fair'
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,025

    First off, thanks for the entire series.

    One observation on your successes for the 2010-24 government. Both gay marriage and net zero were and are controversial with the base, but not with the public at large. In the old days of big tent parties, that sort of thing was the mark of a confident, successful party, able to reach out to the wider public. Now, parties don't seem capable of that.

    The big tents have collapsed here, much as they have in France, Germany, Spain. America seems to have a different pathology, where parties have drifted from the centre but the strength of the system has kept two parties in place- for now, anyway.

    Question is why? Failings of the old big two? Impossibility of dealing with the times we are in by anybody? A failure of society where none of us is willing to compromise on anything?

    One cheery thought to finish- five or six parties who hate each other is bad enough with a PR election. It turns FPTP into a complete lottery.

    Also, to state the obvious, both were delivered by a coalition of the more progressive wing of the Tory party and their LibDem coalition partners, and with a Labour opposition sympathetic to both. Had the Tories been in majority government with the usual internal right wing hold over its direction, things might have turned out differently.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,192
    edited September 20
    Interesting interview on BBC News last night with a few of Tommy Robinson's flag wavers. They were asked why they chose to follow the several times convicted Tommy?

    They said they were just ordinary working people who thought it was time that the English reclaimed their country. They were publicans and said Tommy represented the working class. When they were asked what they meant by 'The English' they preferred not to say
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,543
    Roger said:

    Interesting interview on BBC News last night with a few of Tommy Robinson's flag wavers. They were asked why they chose to follow the several times convicted Tommy?

    They said they were just ordinary working people who thought it was time that the English reclaimed their country. They were publicans and said Tommy represented the working class. When they were asked what they meant by 'The English' they preferred not to say

    This is where the 'White British' shite that spread recently - including on here - is so pernicious. It's not just about Muslims; it's not just about boat people. It's about anyone who is seen as being 'different'.
  • Roger said:

    Interesting interview on BBC News last night with a few of Tommy Robinson's flag wavers being asked why they chose to follow the several times convicted Tommy? They said they were just ordinary working people who thought it was time that the English reclaimed their country. They were publicans and said Tommy represented the working class. When they were asked what they meant by 'The English' they preferred not to say

    Sir Trevor Phillips of Sky who joined the protests to gauge opinion said he was really surprised just how many quite ordinary people were ar the March who reject Tommy Robinson and all he stands for but they simply felt ignored and found this March the best way to protest

    It is a mistake the left are making, and continue to make, that the 150,000 demonstrators are far right and as long as the left continue this the stronger Reform will grow
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,949

    Good morning, everyone.

    Thank goodness, seems Labour may well axe the two child benefit cap.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy917g0420o

    With our ballooning surplus and endlessly overflowing national coffers, I'm ever so grateful they've found a way to finally spend some of our excess cash.

    Good morning

    Labour want to spend £3.5 billion on this policy and incredibly some think a betting tax will pay for it

    Reeves faces upto £40 billion problem so now that becomes £43.5 billion and the betting tax being one source of closing the gap effectively closes nothing

    When will labour understand that you cannot continue to spending and taxing and that difficult decisions have to be made and that includes not adding more to the spend just because it's popular with the left but ironically not popular with the public

    The bond rates continue to rise and Reeves nightmare must be that she is buried in a Truss style crisis
    They 'didn't come into politics to cut spending'.

    So Labour MPs will instead ignore mathematics, economics, and basic reason to try and splurge cash we don't have on things we don't need, rather than trying to balance the books and actual govern in the national interest.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,510
    He'll stop the boats by laying on flights instead.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 16,219
    The headline is, as so often, disingenuous.

    I find it depressing that you think nobody can have a better approach to immigration than Nigel Farage. As if it’s a topic only he is allowed to talk about. It’s like saying only Putin can opine on who should run the Donbas.

    Ed’s “But we've got thought-through policies about how you would do that in a humane way, unlike people like Farage and the Conservatives” is where a lot of voters in this country are - not that you’d know that from media that presents the entire country as roiling xenophobes.
  • IanB2 said:

    First off, thanks for the entire series.

    One observation on your successes for the 2010-24 government. Both gay marriage and net zero were and are controversial with the base, but not with the public at large. In the old days of big tent parties, that sort of thing was the mark of a confident, successful party, able to reach out to the wider public. Now, parties don't seem capable of that.

    The big tents have collapsed here, much as they have in France, Germany, Spain. America seems to have a different pathology, where parties have drifted from the centre but the strength of the system has kept two parties in place- for now, anyway.

    Question is why? Failings of the old big two? Impossibility of dealing with the times we are in by anybody? A failure of society where none of us is willing to compromise on anything?

    One cheery thought to finish- five or six parties who hate each other is bad enough with a PR election. It turns FPTP into a complete lottery.

    Also, to state the obvious, both were delivered by a coalition of the more progressive wing of the Tory party and their LibDem coalition partners, and with a Labour opposition sympathetic to both. Had the Tories been in majority government with the usual internal right wing hold over its direction, things might have turned out differently.
    Hard agree for gay marriage. Net zero was more complex, though. It started with Cameron's detox, and was definitely a signature aspect of the coalition. But the legislation was TMay's swansong, and Boris was pretty sound on the topic.

    Makes sense- one of the pillars of old style conservatism is doing without yourself so your offspring can benefit from the savings. See also the dread of government borrowing. It was only under the pressure of Farage etc, and under Truss and Sunak, that the party went wobbly.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 16,219
    edited September 20

    Roger said:

    Interesting interview on BBC News last night with a few of Tommy Robinson's flag wavers being asked why they chose to follow the several times convicted Tommy? They said they were just ordinary working people who thought it was time that the English reclaimed their country. They were publicans and said Tommy represented the working class. When they were asked what they meant by 'The English' they preferred not to say

    Sir Trevor Phillips of Sky who joined the protests to gauge opinion said he was really surprised just how many quite ordinary people were ar the March who reject Tommy Robinson and all he stands for but they simply felt ignored and found this March the best way to protest

    It is a mistake the left are making, and continue to make, that the 150,000 demonstrators are far right and as long as the left continue this the stronger Reform will grow
    The far right is the left’s fault exhibit 3,572.

    I’m going to create a hashtag for future PB usage, so we can track the phenomenon. #FRITLF
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,634

    Good morning, everyone.

    Thank goodness, seems Labour may well axe the two child benefit cap.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy917g0420o

    With our ballooning surplus and endlessly overflowing national coffers, I'm ever so grateful they've found a way to finally spend some of our excess cash.

    The two child cap is basically ideological. We can't have all those lower classes breeding..... Instead we are importing populations of unknown provenance and (ideologically) we don't like that either.

    Politics has a way of producing the worst possible outcomes.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,358
    edited September 20

    Roger said:

    Interesting interview on BBC News last night with a few of Tommy Robinson's flag wavers. They were asked why they chose to follow the several times convicted Tommy?

    They said they were just ordinary working people who thought it was time that the English reclaimed their country. They were publicans and said Tommy represented the working class. When they were asked what they meant by 'The English' they preferred not to say

    This is where the 'White British' shite that spread recently - including on here - is so pernicious. It's not just about Muslims; it's not just about boat people. It's about anyone who is seen as being 'different'.
    The narrative seems to be we’re not providing for our own because the government’s resources are being devoted to illegal migrants arriving on boats. It needs to be dismantled. But not sure how.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    Thank goodness, seems Labour may well axe the two child benefit cap.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy917g0420o

    With our ballooning surplus and endlessly overflowing national coffers, I'm ever so grateful they've found a way to finally spend some of our excess cash.

    Good morning

    Labour want to spend £3.5 billion on this policy and incredibly some think a betting tax will pay for it

    Reeves faces upto £40 billion problem so now that becomes £43.5 billion and the betting tax being one source of closing the gap effectively closes nothing

    When will labour understand that you cannot continue to spending and taxing and that difficult decisions have to be made and that includes not adding more to the spend just because it's popular with the left but ironically not popular with the public

    The bond rates continue to rise and Reeves nightmare must be that she is buried in a Truss style crisis
    They 'didn't come into politics to cut spending'.

    So Labour MPs will instead ignore mathematics, economics, and basic reason to try and splurge cash we don't have on things we don't need, rather than trying to balance the books and actual govern in the national interest.
    Are you suggesting that we don't need children?
  • TimS said:

    The headline is, as so often, disingenuous.

    I find it depressing that you think nobody can have a better approach to immigration than Nigel Farage. As if it’s a topic only he is allowed to talk about. It’s like saying only Putin can opine on who should run the Donbas.

    Ed’s “But we've got thought-through policies about how you would do that in a humane way, unlike people like Farage and the Conservatives” is where a lot of voters in this country are - not that you’d know that from media that presents the entire country as roiling xenophobes.
    Like Starmer, pandering to Farage only highlights Farage to which the response is why have a poor imitation of the real thing
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,510
    Roger said:

    From the BBC:

    A student "overstayer" who repeatedly raped a 12-year-old girl after arranging for taxis to bring her to his flat late at night has been jailed.

    Wisal Ahmad, 30, had been studying in Scotland, but after running out of funds he ended up working in Bradford where he befriended the girl on social media, a court heard.

    Are we now supposed to hate everyone called Ahmad? Or is this just clickbait for Leon and Max?
    Well for a start, it questions the notion that we shouldn't be concerned about students in the migration numbers because they leave at the end of their courses.

    Second, it shows that the authorities are incapable of doing anything about those who don't leave.

    And thirdly, another example of horrific criminality perpetrated by someone who shouldn't even be here.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,061
    Maybe not, but if he's got useful ideas we need to hear them.
  • TimS said:

    Roger said:

    Interesting interview on BBC News last night with a few of Tommy Robinson's flag wavers being asked why they chose to follow the several times convicted Tommy? They said they were just ordinary working people who thought it was time that the English reclaimed their country. They were publicans and said Tommy represented the working class. When they were asked what they meant by 'The English' they preferred not to say

    Sir Trevor Phillips of Sky who joined the protests to gauge opinion said he was really surprised just how many quite ordinary people were ar the March who reject Tommy Robinson and all he stands for but they simply felt ignored and found this March the best way to protest

    It is a mistake the left are making, and continue to make, that the 150,000 demonstrators are far right and as long as the left continue this the stronger Reform will grow
    The far right is the left’s fault exhibit 3,572.

    I’m going to create a hashtag for future PB usage, so we can track the phenomenon. #FRITLF
    When the left brand 150,000 people as far right then yes they are not understanding the issues that many just quite ordinary non political people feel is wrong in their lives
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 45,020
    Roger said:

    From the BBC:

    A student "overstayer" who repeatedly raped a 12-year-old girl after arranging for taxis to bring her to his flat late at night has been jailed.

    Wisal Ahmad, 30, had been studying in Scotland, but after running out of funds he ended up working in Bradford where he befriended the girl on social media, a court heard.

    Are we now supposed to hate everyone called Ahmad? Or is this just clickbait for Leon and Max?
    sadly it all adds oil to the fire
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,949

    Good morning, everyone.

    Thank goodness, seems Labour may well axe the two child benefit cap.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy917g0420o

    With our ballooning surplus and endlessly overflowing national coffers, I'm ever so grateful they've found a way to finally spend some of our excess cash.

    Good morning

    Labour want to spend £3.5 billion on this policy and incredibly some think a betting tax will pay for it

    Reeves faces upto £40 billion problem so now that becomes £43.5 billion and the betting tax being one source of closing the gap effectively closes nothing

    When will labour understand that you cannot continue to spending and taxing and that difficult decisions have to be made and that includes not adding more to the spend just because it's popular with the left but ironically not popular with the public

    The bond rates continue to rise and Reeves nightmare must be that she is buried in a Truss style crisis
    They 'didn't come into politics to cut spending'.

    So Labour MPs will instead ignore mathematics, economics, and basic reason to try and splurge cash we don't have on things we don't need, rather than trying to balance the books and actual govern in the national interest.
    Are you suggesting that we don't need children?
    In my evil cruelty I'm suggesting a country with huge deficit and a crippling deficit should confine itself to free healthcare, free education, and benefits for the first two children. The idea the taxpayer has infinite funds to fritter away might be considered optimistic at any moment, and at these economically tough times it's an outright fiction.

    I do think it's an excitingly creative idea that providing children with free healthcare and education, plus benefits for the first two, somehow means someone opposes the concept of needing children.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,543

    Roger said:

    Interesting interview on BBC News last night with a few of Tommy Robinson's flag wavers being asked why they chose to follow the several times convicted Tommy? They said they were just ordinary working people who thought it was time that the English reclaimed their country. They were publicans and said Tommy represented the working class. When they were asked what they meant by 'The English' they preferred not to say

    Sir Trevor Phillips of Sky who joined the protests to gauge opinion said he was really surprised just how many quite ordinary people were ar the March who reject Tommy Robinson and all he stands for but they simply felt ignored and found this March the best way to protest

    It is a mistake the left are making, and continue to make, that the 150,000 demonstrators are far right and as long as the left continue this the stronger Reform will grow
    That's B/S. If you were on the march, Robinson used you, and gained from your presence. That means either you support his far-right policies, or you are as dumb as fuck. Or both. His voice and beliefs got amplified, not yours.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 45,020
    Battlebus said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Thank goodness, seems Labour may well axe the two child benefit cap.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy917g0420o

    With our ballooning surplus and endlessly overflowing national coffers, I'm ever so grateful they've found a way to finally spend some of our excess cash.

    The two child cap is basically ideological. We can't have all those lower classes breeding..... Instead we are importing populations of unknown provenance and (ideologically) we don't like that either.

    Politics has a way of producing the worst possible outcomes.
    Yes free money for all we are rich and don't know what to do with all that cash.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,510

    Good morning, everyone.

    Thank goodness, seems Labour may well axe the two child benefit cap.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy917g0420o

    With our ballooning surplus and endlessly overflowing national coffers, I'm ever so grateful they've found a way to finally spend some of our excess cash.

    Good morning

    Labour want to spend £3.5 billion on this policy and incredibly some think a betting tax will pay for it

    Reeves faces upto £40 billion problem so now that becomes £43.5 billion and the betting tax being one source of closing the gap effectively closes nothing

    When will labour understand that you cannot continue to spending and taxing and that difficult decisions have to be made and that includes not adding more to the spend just because it's popular with the left but ironically not popular with the public

    The bond rates continue to rise and Reeves nightmare must be that she is buried in a Truss style crisis
    They 'didn't come into politics to cut spending'.

    So Labour MPs will instead ignore mathematics, economics, and basic reason to try and splurge cash we don't have on things we don't need, rather than trying to balance the books and actual govern in the national interest.
    Are you suggesting that we don't need children?
    We are importing hundreds of thousands of adults every year. No need for more children. And with a proper immigration system we just import those who are well educated and highly skilled.

    Avoid the costs of childcare, education, maternity pay, etc. And avoids ending up with a tranche of adults who are either incapable or unwilling to contribute to society.

    On the other hand, babies are cute.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,038
    edited September 20

    Roger said:

    Interesting interview on BBC News last night with a few of Tommy Robinson's flag wavers. They were asked why they chose to follow the several times convicted Tommy?

    They said they were just ordinary working people who thought it was time that the English reclaimed their country. They were publicans and said Tommy represented the working class. When they were asked what they meant by 'The English' they preferred not to say

    This is where the 'White British' shite that spread recently - including on here - is so pernicious. It's not just about Muslims; it's not just about boat people. It's about anyone who is seen as being 'different'.
    The narrative seems to be we’re not providing for our own because the government’s resources are being devoted to illegal migrants arriving on boats. It needs to be dismantled. But not sure how.
    The graph of doom:



    https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2024/10/26/the-publics-surprising-choice-of-tax-increase-and-why-we-should-ignore-it/

    Some falsehoods are so deeply embedded in the psyche that they are almost impossible to dismantle. Especially when cynical politicians and breathless commentators hype them up.

    In the good old days, the wiser older members of the pack would have taken such people to one side, warned them about lying and kicked them out into the snow for a repeat offence. Now we elevate them.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,403

    Roger said:

    Interesting interview on BBC News last night with a few of Tommy Robinson's flag wavers being asked why they chose to follow the several times convicted Tommy? They said they were just ordinary working people who thought it was time that the English reclaimed their country. They were publicans and said Tommy represented the working class. When they were asked what they meant by 'The English' they preferred not to say

    Sir Trevor Phillips of Sky who joined the protests to gauge opinion said he was really surprised just how many quite ordinary people were ar the March who reject Tommy Robinson and all he stands for but they simply felt ignored and found this March the best way to protest

    It is a mistake the left are making, and continue to make, that the 150,000 demonstrators are far right and as long as the left continue this the stronger Reform will grow
    That's total nonsense that people like those protesters are being ignored. They are being pandered to both by government and opposition and nearly all political debate in this country is about immigration.

    If that is being ignored, then what do they want?
  • Roger said:

    Interesting interview on BBC News last night with a few of Tommy Robinson's flag wavers being asked why they chose to follow the several times convicted Tommy? They said they were just ordinary working people who thought it was time that the English reclaimed their country. They were publicans and said Tommy represented the working class. When they were asked what they meant by 'The English' they preferred not to say

    Sir Trevor Phillips of Sky who joined the protests to gauge opinion said he was really surprised just how many quite ordinary people were ar the March who reject Tommy Robinson and all he stands for but they simply felt ignored and found this March the best way to protest

    It is a mistake the left are making, and continue to make, that the 150,000 demonstrators are far right and as long as the left continue this the stronger Reform will grow
    That's B/S. If you were on the march, Robinson used you, and gained from your presence. That means either you support his far-right policies, or you are as dumb as fuck. Or both. His voice and beliefs got amplified, not yours.
    Sorry telling people they are dumb as f... is hardly a winning argument

    And by the way Sir Trevor Phillips warned about this attitude, and he is an expert on the subject being the former head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission and a member of the labour party
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 7,315
    Cicero said:

    Roger said:

    An odd move by Kemi coming out against a Palestinian state. I can understand her desire to get herself noticed but this would seem a strange choice. One unlikely to be supported even by her dwindling fan base

    But strongly supported by the American right who are considering donations to Reform.

    Banning foreign money in British politics is now an urgent priority.
    Indeed it is:

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/puberty-blocker-drug-firm-donated-cash-to-lib-dems-cf3x77nh3
  • Icarus said:

    I always understood that "May he/she live in interesting times" is a blessing to a baby. Makes more sense as a blessing!

    I always understood it as a curse but then I’m Scottish.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 45,020

    First off, thanks for the entire series.

    One observation on your successes for the 2010-24 government. Both gay marriage and net zero were and are controversial with the base, but not with the public at large. In the old days of big tent parties, that sort of thing was the mark of a confident, successful party, able to reach out to the wider public. Now, parties don't seem capable of that.

    The big tents have collapsed here, much as they have in France, Germany, Spain. America seems to have a different pathology, where parties have drifted from the centre but the strength of the system has kept two parties in place- for now, anyway.

    Question is why? Failings of the old big two? Impossibility of dealing with the times we are in by anybody? A failure of society where none of us is willing to compromise on anything?

    One cheery thought to finish- five or six parties who hate each other is bad enough with a PR election. It turns FPTP into a complete lottery.

    There will be many reasons. But a biggie in my mind is that t'Internet tells far too many people that there are easy solutions to the problems that face us. As an extreme example, why should we look for real solutions, when we can just chuck out the foreigners?
    They do a lot of chucking out right enough, only 50,000+ in hotels and rising by the day, millions unaccounted for , but hey we have managed to swap two of them with France. Stupid people and do gooders cannot grasp that you cannot just dump millions of strangers in a country in a short time and think it will all be sweetness and light. You are biased entirely and don't want to even look at the topic given your own circumstances but you having a wife from outside the UK does not mean that it is right to allow unlimited people to flood into the country. It will end in tears for sure.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,543

    Roger said:

    Interesting interview on BBC News last night with a few of Tommy Robinson's flag wavers being asked why they chose to follow the several times convicted Tommy? They said they were just ordinary working people who thought it was time that the English reclaimed their country. They were publicans and said Tommy represented the working class. When they were asked what they meant by 'The English' they preferred not to say

    Sir Trevor Phillips of Sky who joined the protests to gauge opinion said he was really surprised just how many quite ordinary people were ar the March who reject Tommy Robinson and all he stands for but they simply felt ignored and found this March the best way to protest

    It is a mistake the left are making, and continue to make, that the 150,000 demonstrators are far right and as long as the left continue this the stronger Reform will grow
    That's B/S. If you were on the march, Robinson used you, and gained from your presence. That means either you support his far-right policies, or you are as dumb as fuck. Or both. His voice and beliefs got amplified, not yours.
    Sorry telling people they are dumb as f... is hardly a winning argument

    And by the way Sir Trevor Phillips warned about this attitude, and he is an expert on the subject being the former head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission and a member of the labour party
    It's not a winning argument, but it's true. And it needs saying.

    The march was about Tommy Robinson. His message got amplified. If you were there and disagreed with him, then your voice was not heard. His was. Everyone there was amplifying *his* message of hate.

    Don't defend Tommy Robinson. Don't defend the shits who support him.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 11,074
    Icarus said:

    I always understood that "May he/she live in interesting times" is a blessing to a baby. Makes more sense as a blessing!

    Depends how much you value stability…

  • TazTaz Posts: 21,214

    He'll stop the boats by laying on flights instead.
    Most Lib Dem’s are pro open door inward migration. He’ll struggle with his policy here
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,432
    edited September 20

    Thanks Gareth. The most surprising thing about the death of the Tory party is that it's something I regret! When I look at their eclipse by Reform, which has all of the Tories' vices and none of their virtues, I pray for the party's resurrection.

    If it wasn't for Reform (Farage specifically) the CP would be in a decent position now.

    Danny Kruger's defection will prove to be highly significant. A respected and academic Tory, thought to be loyal to the party.

    I've voted Cons twice in my life but like you will regret it's passing and the country will be massively worse off should it fall.

    The best to hope for may be a merger of some sort (perhaps preceded by a coalition and hopefully without Farage in the picture) between Reform and the Conservatives, with the former moderating Reform's naivety and inexperience.

    Edit: if my last paragraph was to come to pass Jenrick may emerge as a key player.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 6,229

    Roger said:

    Interesting interview on BBC News last night with a few of Tommy Robinson's flag wavers. They were asked why they chose to follow the several times convicted Tommy?

    They said they were just ordinary working people who thought it was time that the English reclaimed their country. They were publicans and said Tommy represented the working class. When they were asked what they meant by 'The English' they preferred not to say

    This is where the 'White British' shite that spread recently - including on here - is so pernicious. It's not just about Muslims; it's not just about boat people. It's about anyone who is seen as being 'different'.
    The narrative seems to be we’re not providing for our own because the government’s resources are being devoted to illegal migrants arriving on boats. It needs to be dismantled. But not sure how.
    The graph of doom:



    https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2024/10/26/the-publics-surprising-choice-of-tax-increase-and-why-we-should-ignore-it/

    Some falsehoods are so deeply embedded in the Psyche that they are almost impossible to dismantle. Especially when cynical politicians and breathless commentators hype them up.

    In the good old days, the wiser older members of the pack would have taken such people to one side, warned them about lying and kicked them out into the snow for a repeat offence. Now we elevate them.
    If we just take the amount spent on universal credit for foreign nationals, it is now north of £10bn per year. Rather than getting emotional, keep that number in mind when you listen to Reeves’ doom budget, scrimping and scraping for every scrap of fiscal headroom she can.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,510
    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    Interesting interview on BBC News last night with a few of Tommy Robinson's flag wavers being asked why they chose to follow the several times convicted Tommy? They said they were just ordinary working people who thought it was time that the English reclaimed their country. They were publicans and said Tommy represented the working class. When they were asked what they meant by 'The English' they preferred not to say

    Sir Trevor Phillips of Sky who joined the protests to gauge opinion said he was really surprised just how many quite ordinary people were ar the March who reject Tommy Robinson and all he stands for but they simply felt ignored and found this March the best way to protest

    It is a mistake the left are making, and continue to make, that the 150,000 demonstrators are far right and as long as the left continue this the stronger Reform will grow
    That's total nonsense that people like those protesters are being ignored. They are being pandered to both by government and opposition and nearly all political debate in this country is about immigration.

    If that is being ignored, then what do they want?
    Action, not words.

    "Tens of thousands. Tens of thousands" = Nearly a million

    "Stop the boats. Stop the boats." = More people arriving on boats.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,403

    Roger said:

    Interesting interview on BBC News last night with a few of Tommy Robinson's flag wavers being asked why they chose to follow the several times convicted Tommy? They said they were just ordinary working people who thought it was time that the English reclaimed their country. They were publicans and said Tommy represented the working class. When they were asked what they meant by 'The English' they preferred not to say

    Sir Trevor Phillips of Sky who joined the protests to gauge opinion said he was really surprised just how many quite ordinary people were ar the March who reject Tommy Robinson and all he stands for but they simply felt ignored and found this March the best way to protest

    It is a mistake the left are making, and continue to make, that the 150,000 demonstrators are far right and as long as the left continue this the stronger Reform will grow
    That's B/S. If you were on the march, Robinson used you, and gained from your presence. That means either you support his far-right policies, or you are as dumb as fuck. Or both. His voice and beliefs got amplified, not yours.
    Sorry telling people they are dumb as f... is hardly a winning argument

    And by the way Sir Trevor Phillips warned about this attitude, and he is an expert on the subject being the former head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission and a member of the labour party
    Those people went on a march organised by a convicted fraudster who also has convictions for assault, to listen to speeches by racists including foreign ones calling for violence to bring down a democratic government, and listened to racist chanting. If they weren't racist then they were certainly comfortable in the company of racists.

    The reason the Conservative party is dying politically is that it cannot see that this is not Conservatism.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,257
    A really good series, thanks Gareth.

    I think the best "hope" for the Tories is for Labour turn in on each other over the public finances. The Tories need to present themselves as the only party that can take the tough decisions.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,432
    tlg86 said:

    A really good series, thanks Gareth.

    I think the best "hope" for the Tories is for Labour turn in on each other over the public finances. The Tories need to present themselves as the only party that can take the tough decisions.

    I don't think that will be enough. The Tories would IMO still be relegated to third or worse place at the next election.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 6,229
    A great threader. And perceptive comment at the end about voting system. I have it on good authority that it’s a live conversation at the top of the Labour Party to ram through a change in the voting system (ie minus a referendum). Anything and everything is seen as legitimate if it stops Farage, who they see as a quasi fasch.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 45,020
    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    Interesting interview on BBC News last night with a few of Tommy Robinson's flag wavers being asked why they chose to follow the several times convicted Tommy? They said they were just ordinary working people who thought it was time that the English reclaimed their country. They were publicans and said Tommy represented the working class. When they were asked what they meant by 'The English' they preferred not to say

    Sir Trevor Phillips of Sky who joined the protests to gauge opinion said he was really surprised just how many quite ordinary people were ar the March who reject Tommy Robinson and all he stands for but they simply felt ignored and found this March the best way to protest

    It is a mistake the left are making, and continue to make, that the 150,000 demonstrators are far right and as long as the left continue this the stronger Reform will grow
    That's total nonsense that people like those protesters are being ignored. They are being pandered to both by government and opposition and nearly all political debate in this country is about immigration.

    If that is being ignored, then what do they want?
    They are doing feck all about immigration, sending 2 people to France is not sorting out anything. It has been ignored for 20 years and anyone highlighting that it was going to be an issue has been jumped on. The chickens are coming home to roost , we are fit to burst and country will have more trouble if they don't get their fingers out of you know what. I don't see a lot of it up here but sure it is an issue as well and we certainly see plenty on TV from England. People need to get their heads out of the sand.
  • Roger said:

    Interesting interview on BBC News last night with a few of Tommy Robinson's flag wavers. They were asked why they chose to follow the several times convicted Tommy?

    They said they were just ordinary working people who thought it was time that the English reclaimed their country. They were publicans and said Tommy represented the working class. When they were asked what they meant by 'The English' they preferred not to say

    This is where the 'White British' shite that spread recently - including on here - is so pernicious. It's not just about Muslims; it's not just about boat people. It's about anyone who is seen as being 'different'.
    The narrative seems to be we’re not providing for our own because the government’s resources are being devoted to illegal migrants arriving on boats. It needs to be dismantled. But not sure how.
    The graph of doom:



    https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2024/10/26/the-publics-surprising-choice-of-tax-increase-and-why-we-should-ignore-it/

    Some falsehoods are so deeply embedded in the psyche that they are almost impossible to dismantle. Especially when cynical politicians and breathless commentators hype them up.

    In the good old days, the wiser older members of the pack would have taken such people to one side, warned them about lying and kicked them out into the snow for a repeat offence. Now we elevate them.
    It’s all in the framing.
    On our state broadcaster this am it’s reported that ‘over a thousand people arrived by boats in the Channel yesterday. So far three people have been returned on flights to France on the governments one in, one out deal.’
    I cannot believe that conjunction is not the result of a deliberate decision.
  • malcolmg said:

    First off, thanks for the entire series.

    One observation on your successes for the 2010-24 government. Both gay marriage and net zero were and are controversial with the base, but not with the public at large. In the old days of big tent parties, that sort of thing was the mark of a confident, successful party, able to reach out to the wider public. Now, parties don't seem capable of that.

    The big tents have collapsed here, much as they have in France, Germany, Spain. America seems to have a different pathology, where parties have drifted from the centre but the strength of the system has kept two parties in place- for now, anyway.

    Question is why? Failings of the old big two? Impossibility of dealing with the times we are in by anybody? A failure of society where none of us is willing to compromise on anything?

    One cheery thought to finish- five or six parties who hate each other is bad enough with a PR election. It turns FPTP into a complete lottery.

    There will be many reasons. But a biggie in my mind is that t'Internet tells far too many people that there are easy solutions to the problems that face us. As an extreme example, why should we look for real solutions, when we can just chuck out the foreigners?
    They do a lot of chucking out right enough, only 50,000+ in hotels and rising by the day, millions unaccounted for , but hey we have managed to swap two of them with France. Stupid people and do gooders cannot grasp that you cannot just dump millions of strangers in a country in a short time and think it will all be sweetness and light. You are biased entirely and don't want to even look at the topic given your own circumstances but you having a wife from outside the UK does not mean that it is right to allow unlimited people to flood into the country. It will end in tears for sure.
    This morning the media are highlighting 1,694 arrivals in 3 days and just 3 sent out
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,510

    Roger said:

    Interesting interview on BBC News last night with a few of Tommy Robinson's flag wavers being asked why they chose to follow the several times convicted Tommy? They said they were just ordinary working people who thought it was time that the English reclaimed their country. They were publicans and said Tommy represented the working class. When they were asked what they meant by 'The English' they preferred not to say

    Sir Trevor Phillips of Sky who joined the protests to gauge opinion said he was really surprised just how many quite ordinary people were ar the March who reject Tommy Robinson and all he stands for but they simply felt ignored and found this March the best way to protest

    It is a mistake the left are making, and continue to make, that the 150,000 demonstrators are far right and as long as the left continue this the stronger Reform will grow
    That's B/S. If you were on the march, Robinson used you, and gained from your presence. That means either you support his far-right policies, or you are as dumb as fuck. Or both. His voice and beliefs got amplified, not yours.
    Sorry telling people they are dumb as f... is hardly a winning argument

    And by the way Sir Trevor Phillips warned about this attitude, and he is an expert on the subject being the former head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission and a member of the labour party
    All I see from many of my fellow Labourites is sneering condescension.

  • TazTaz Posts: 21,214

    Roger said:

    Interesting interview on BBC News last night with a few of Tommy Robinson's flag wavers being asked why they chose to follow the several times convicted Tommy? They said they were just ordinary working people who thought it was time that the English reclaimed their country. They were publicans and said Tommy represented the working class. When they were asked what they meant by 'The English' they preferred not to say

    Sir Trevor Phillips of Sky who joined the protests to gauge opinion said he was really surprised just how many quite ordinary people were ar the March who reject Tommy Robinson and all he stands for but they simply felt ignored and found this March the best way to protest

    It is a mistake the left are making, and continue to make, that the 150,000 demonstrators are far right and as long as the left continue this the stronger Reform will grow
    That's B/S. If you were on the march, Robinson used you, and gained from your presence. That means either you support his far-right policies, or you are as dumb as fuck. Or both. His voice and beliefs got amplified, not yours.
    Sorry telling people they are dumb as f... is hardly a winning argument

    And by the way Sir Trevor Phillips warned about this attitude, and he is an expert on the subject being the former head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission and a member of the labour party
    All I see from many of my fellow Labourites is sneering condescension.

    Including here. Pitiful really.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,543
    malcolmg said:

    First off, thanks for the entire series.

    One observation on your successes for the 2010-24 government. Both gay marriage and net zero were and are controversial with the base, but not with the public at large. In the old days of big tent parties, that sort of thing was the mark of a confident, successful party, able to reach out to the wider public. Now, parties don't seem capable of that.

    The big tents have collapsed here, much as they have in France, Germany, Spain. America seems to have a different pathology, where parties have drifted from the centre but the strength of the system has kept two parties in place- for now, anyway.

    Question is why? Failings of the old big two? Impossibility of dealing with the times we are in by anybody? A failure of society where none of us is willing to compromise on anything?

    One cheery thought to finish- five or six parties who hate each other is bad enough with a PR election. It turns FPTP into a complete lottery.

    There will be many reasons. But a biggie in my mind is that t'Internet tells far too many people that there are easy solutions to the problems that face us. As an extreme example, why should we look for real solutions, when we can just chuck out the foreigners?
    They do a lot of chucking out right enough, only 50,000+ in hotels and rising by the day, millions unaccounted for , but hey we have managed to swap two of them with France. Stupid people and do gooders cannot grasp that you cannot just dump millions of strangers in a country in a short time and think it will all be sweetness and light. You are biased entirely and don't want to even look at the topic given your own circumstances but you having a wife from outside the UK does not mean that it is right to allow unlimited people to flood into the country. It will end in tears for sure.
    I'm not saying it is right to allow unlimited people into the country, and never have. The whole situation is a mess, and lots of people (including lawyers...) are making a lot of money out of it, whilst the public suffer.

    *BUT* the talk is going far too far. Massive numbers of immigrants contribute to society, and even keep our services going. Yet it's becoming that anyone who cannot trace their Britishness back for umpteen generations is the enemy. It's not about boat people; it's about all immigrants.

    We also need to remember that immigrants are people too, and someone calling for them to be drowned at sea should be put adrift into a boat in the North Sea to see how they like it.
  • Roger said:

    Interesting interview on BBC News last night with a few of Tommy Robinson's flag wavers being asked why they chose to follow the several times convicted Tommy? They said they were just ordinary working people who thought it was time that the English reclaimed their country. They were publicans and said Tommy represented the working class. When they were asked what they meant by 'The English' they preferred not to say

    Sir Trevor Phillips of Sky who joined the protests to gauge opinion said he was really surprised just how many quite ordinary people were ar the March who reject Tommy Robinson and all he stands for but they simply felt ignored and found this March the best way to protest

    It is a mistake the left are making, and continue to make, that the 150,000 demonstrators are far right and as long as the left continue this the stronger Reform will grow
    That's B/S. If you were on the march, Robinson used you, and gained from your presence. That means either you support his far-right policies, or you are as dumb as fuck. Or both. His voice and beliefs got amplified, not yours.
    Sorry telling people they are dumb as f... is hardly a winning argument

    And by the way Sir Trevor Phillips warned about this attitude, and he is an expert on the subject being the former head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission and a member of the labour party
    It's not a winning argument, but it's true. And it needs saying.

    The march was about Tommy Robinson. His message got amplified. If you were there and disagreed with him, then your voice was not heard. His was. Everyone there was amplifying *his* message of hate.

    Don't defend Tommy Robinson. Don't defend the shits who support him.
    Neither I nor Trevor Phillips even attempted to justify the obnoxious Robinson, but he and others made the point that many in the march were ordinary people marching because they felt ignored

  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,192
    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    Interesting interview on BBC News last night with a few of Tommy Robinson's flag wavers being asked why they chose to follow the several times convicted Tommy? They said they were just ordinary working people who thought it was time that the English reclaimed their country. They were publicans and said Tommy represented the working class. When they were asked what they meant by 'The English' they preferred not to say

    Sir Trevor Phillips of Sky who joined the protests to gauge opinion said he was really surprised just how many quite ordinary people were ar the March who reject Tommy Robinson and all he stands for but they simply felt ignored and found this March the best way to protest

    It is a mistake the left are making, and continue to make, that the 150,000 demonstrators are far right and as long as the left continue this the stronger Reform will grow
    That's total nonsense that people like those protesters are being ignored. They are being pandered to both by government and opposition and nearly all political debate in this country is about immigration.

    If that is being ignored, then what do they want?
    Complete nonsense! I heard Trevor Phillips interview and it was cringeworthy. A difficult listen even.

    He described a 14 year old girl who had been banned from school for wearing a Union Jack uniform as though she was Mother Theresa. This Vestal Virgin epitomising the march was Trevor's take from the afternoon.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 45,020

    Roger said:

    Interesting interview on BBC News last night with a few of Tommy Robinson's flag wavers. They were asked why they chose to follow the several times convicted Tommy?

    They said they were just ordinary working people who thought it was time that the English reclaimed their country. They were publicans and said Tommy represented the working class. When they were asked what they meant by 'The English' they preferred not to say

    This is where the 'White British' shite that spread recently - including on here - is so pernicious. It's not just about Muslims; it's not just about boat people. It's about anyone who is seen as being 'different'.
    The narrative seems to be we’re not providing for our own because the government’s resources are being devoted to illegal migrants arriving on boats. It needs to be dismantled. But not sure how.
    The graph of doom:



    https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2024/10/26/the-publics-surprising-choice-of-tax-increase-and-why-we-should-ignore-it/

    Some falsehoods are so deeply embedded in the psyche that they are almost impossible to dismantle. Especially when cynical politicians and breathless commentators hype them up.

    In the good old days, the wiser older members of the pack would have taken such people to one side, warned them about lying and kicked them out into the snow for a repeat offence. Now we elevate them.
    It’s all in the framing.
    On our state broadcaster this am it’s reported that ‘over a thousand people arrived by boats in the Channel yesterday. So far three people have been returned on flights to France on the governments one in, one out deal.’
    I cannot believe that conjunction is not the result of a deliberate decision.
    It does hightlight the absurdity of their pathetic attempt at trying to show people they are smashing the gangs. Any fool can take 3 off 1000 and realise the government are taking them for fools. These clowns could not run a bath and we hav e4 mor eyears to suffer their utter stupidity and uselessness.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,949
    F1: if you backed my early 8.5 tip on Leclerc to win you *might* want to consider the 6.4 lay on Betfair.

    Personally, I'm probably going to leave it. The Ladbrokes odds, non-boosted, are down to 4 for the win (3 for pole).

    Still odds against it'll come off, but we'll see.
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,214

    malcolmg said:

    First off, thanks for the entire series.

    One observation on your successes for the 2010-24 government. Both gay marriage and net zero were and are controversial with the base, but not with the public at large. In the old days of big tent parties, that sort of thing was the mark of a confident, successful party, able to reach out to the wider public. Now, parties don't seem capable of that.

    The big tents have collapsed here, much as they have in France, Germany, Spain. America seems to have a different pathology, where parties have drifted from the centre but the strength of the system has kept two parties in place- for now, anyway.

    Question is why? Failings of the old big two? Impossibility of dealing with the times we are in by anybody? A failure of society where none of us is willing to compromise on anything?

    One cheery thought to finish- five or six parties who hate each other is bad enough with a PR election. It turns FPTP into a complete lottery.

    There will be many reasons. But a biggie in my mind is that t'Internet tells far too many people that there are easy solutions to the problems that face us. As an extreme example, why should we look for real solutions, when we can just chuck out the foreigners?
    They do a lot of chucking out right enough, only 50,000+ in hotels and rising by the day, millions unaccounted for , but hey we have managed to swap two of them with France. Stupid people and do gooders cannot grasp that you cannot just dump millions of strangers in a country in a short time and think it will all be sweetness and light. You are biased entirely and don't want to even look at the topic given your own circumstances but you having a wife from outside the UK does not mean that it is right to allow unlimited people to flood into the country. It will end in tears for sure.
    I'm not saying it is right to allow unlimited people into the country, and never have. The whole situation is a mess, and lots of people (including lawyers...) are making a lot of money out of it, whilst the public suffer.

    *BUT* the talk is going far too far. Massive numbers of immigrants contribute to society, and even keep our services going. Yet it's becoming that anyone who cannot trace their Britishness back for umpteen generations is the enemy. It's not about boat people; it's about all immigrants.

    We also need to remember that immigrants are people too, and someone calling for them to be drowned at sea should be put adrift into a boat in the North Sea to see how they like it.
    I’m really sick of this ‘immigrants keep our services going’ guff. Our services keep going due to the contribution of ALL involved in it. Your line just diminishes the efforts of non migrants.
  • TresTres Posts: 3,097

    Roger said:

    Interesting interview on BBC News last night with a few of Tommy Robinson's flag wavers being asked why they chose to follow the several times convicted Tommy? They said they were just ordinary working people who thought it was time that the English reclaimed their country. They were publicans and said Tommy represented the working class. When they were asked what they meant by 'The English' they preferred not to say

    Sir Trevor Phillips of Sky who joined the protests to gauge opinion said he was really surprised just how many quite ordinary people were ar the March who reject Tommy Robinson and all he stands for but they simply felt ignored and found this March the best way to protest

    It is a mistake the left are making, and continue to make, that the 150,000 demonstrators are far right and as long as the left continue this the stronger Reform will grow
    you think every member of the nazis was far right? we judge you by the company you choose to keep, same way as all the righties got enraged by the corbyn led labour party.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,543
    At the march, Musky Baby - a foreign national - called for violence and the overthrow of the elected British government.

    Did the protestors walk away when they heard that? No.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 45,020

    malcolmg said:

    First off, thanks for the entire series.

    One observation on your successes for the 2010-24 government. Both gay marriage and net zero were and are controversial with the base, but not with the public at large. In the old days of big tent parties, that sort of thing was the mark of a confident, successful party, able to reach out to the wider public. Now, parties don't seem capable of that.

    The big tents have collapsed here, much as they have in France, Germany, Spain. America seems to have a different pathology, where parties have drifted from the centre but the strength of the system has kept two parties in place- for now, anyway.

    Question is why? Failings of the old big two? Impossibility of dealing with the times we are in by anybody? A failure of society where none of us is willing to compromise on anything?

    One cheery thought to finish- five or six parties who hate each other is bad enough with a PR election. It turns FPTP into a complete lottery.

    There will be many reasons. But a biggie in my mind is that t'Internet tells far too many people that there are easy solutions to the problems that face us. As an extreme example, why should we look for real solutions, when we can just chuck out the foreigners?
    They do a lot of chucking out right enough, only 50,000+ in hotels and rising by the day, millions unaccounted for , but hey we have managed to swap two of them with France. Stupid people and do gooders cannot grasp that you cannot just dump millions of strangers in a country in a short time and think it will all be sweetness and light. You are biased entirely and don't want to even look at the topic given your own circumstances but you having a wife from outside the UK does not mean that it is right to allow unlimited people to flood into the country. It will end in tears for sure.
    This morning the media are highlighting 1,694 arrivals in 3 days and just 3 sent out
    they have added another 50% to their deported , really getting on with smashing those gangs right enough G. I find it hard to understand why people are surprised that support for Farage is rising so fast, the optics are unbelievable.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,025
    edited September 20
    moonshine said:

    A great threader. And perceptive comment at the end about voting system. I have it on good authority that it’s a live conversation at the top of the Labour Party to ram through a change in the voting system (ie minus a referendum). Anything and everything is seen as legitimate if it stops Farage, who they see as a quasi fasch.

    What’s talked about in the Labour Party and what its leadership actually does aren’t often closely related, however. But STV could be implemented pretty quickly, since the existing constituencies form the building blocks, and it would simply be a case of lumping together the seats for the larger cities into a multi-member seat, and elsewhere creating new seats of between three and five (maybe up to seven) existing seats, using existing divisions such as counties as a guide - a much simpler task than poring over maps of rivers and railway lines to create a whole new set of boundaries. Indeed, I bet there are people somewhere who already have a starter for ten mapped out.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,543
    edited September 20
    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    First off, thanks for the entire series.

    One observation on your successes for the 2010-24 government. Both gay marriage and net zero were and are controversial with the base, but not with the public at large. In the old days of big tent parties, that sort of thing was the mark of a confident, successful party, able to reach out to the wider public. Now, parties don't seem capable of that.

    The big tents have collapsed here, much as they have in France, Germany, Spain. America seems to have a different pathology, where parties have drifted from the centre but the strength of the system has kept two parties in place- for now, anyway.

    Question is why? Failings of the old big two? Impossibility of dealing with the times we are in by anybody? A failure of society where none of us is willing to compromise on anything?

    One cheery thought to finish- five or six parties who hate each other is bad enough with a PR election. It turns FPTP into a complete lottery.

    There will be many reasons. But a biggie in my mind is that t'Internet tells far too many people that there are easy solutions to the problems that face us. As an extreme example, why should we look for real solutions, when we can just chuck out the foreigners?
    They do a lot of chucking out right enough, only 50,000+ in hotels and rising by the day, millions unaccounted for , but hey we have managed to swap two of them with France. Stupid people and do gooders cannot grasp that you cannot just dump millions of strangers in a country in a short time and think it will all be sweetness and light. You are biased entirely and don't want to even look at the topic given your own circumstances but you having a wife from outside the UK does not mean that it is right to allow unlimited people to flood into the country. It will end in tears for sure.
    I'm not saying it is right to allow unlimited people into the country, and never have. The whole situation is a mess, and lots of people (including lawyers...) are making a lot of money out of it, whilst the public suffer.

    *BUT* the talk is going far too far. Massive numbers of immigrants contribute to society, and even keep our services going. Yet it's becoming that anyone who cannot trace their Britishness back for umpteen generations is the enemy. It's not about boat people; it's about all immigrants.

    We also need to remember that immigrants are people too, and someone calling for them to be drowned at sea should be put adrift into a boat in the North Sea to see how they like it.
    I’m really sick of this ‘immigrants keep our services going’ guff. Our services keep going due to the contribution of ALL involved in it. Your line just diminishes the efforts of non migrants.
    And your line diminishes the work done (and taxes paid) by immigrants.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,521
    Good article thank you.

    On other matters I was listening to an interview with a GB athlete who won silver in the women’s 200m last night. I was quite surprised at how incredibly articulate and interesting she was. Then about ten mins later reading up on sports news she appeared, a Cambridge graduate, good looking, fun personality too, Amy Hunt looks like she’s going to be a star.
  • Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    Interesting interview on BBC News last night with a few of Tommy Robinson's flag wavers being asked why they chose to follow the several times convicted Tommy? They said they were just ordinary working people who thought it was time that the English reclaimed their country. They were publicans and said Tommy represented the working class. When they were asked what they meant by 'The English' they preferred not to say

    Sir Trevor Phillips of Sky who joined the protests to gauge opinion said he was really surprised just how many quite ordinary people were ar the March who reject Tommy Robinson and all he stands for but they simply felt ignored and found this March the best way to protest

    It is a mistake the left are making, and continue to make, that the 150,000 demonstrators are far right and as long as the left continue this the stronger Reform will grow
    That's total nonsense that people like those protesters are being ignored. They are being pandered to both by government and opposition and nearly all political debate in this country is about immigration.

    If that is being ignored, then what do they want?
    Complete nonsense! I heard Trevor Phillips interview and it was cringeworthy. A difficult listen even.

    He described a 14 year old girl who had been banned from school for wearing a Union Jack uniform as though she was Mother Theresa. This Vestal Virgin epitomising the march was Trevor's take from the afternoon.
    It would be a difficult listen for you to hear the truth laid out by a respected labourite who leaves you standing when it comes to Equality and Human rights
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,543

    Roger said:

    Interesting interview on BBC News last night with a few of Tommy Robinson's flag wavers being asked why they chose to follow the several times convicted Tommy? They said they were just ordinary working people who thought it was time that the English reclaimed their country. They were publicans and said Tommy represented the working class. When they were asked what they meant by 'The English' they preferred not to say

    Sir Trevor Phillips of Sky who joined the protests to gauge opinion said he was really surprised just how many quite ordinary people were ar the March who reject Tommy Robinson and all he stands for but they simply felt ignored and found this March the best way to protest

    It is a mistake the left are making, and continue to make, that the 150,000 demonstrators are far right and as long as the left continue this the stronger Reform will grow
    That's B/S. If you were on the march, Robinson used you, and gained from your presence. That means either you support his far-right policies, or you are as dumb as fuck. Or both. His voice and beliefs got amplified, not yours.
    Sorry telling people they are dumb as f... is hardly a winning argument

    And by the way Sir Trevor Phillips warned about this attitude, and he is an expert on the subject being the former head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission and a member of the labour party
    It's not a winning argument, but it's true. And it needs saying.

    The march was about Tommy Robinson. His message got amplified. If you were there and disagreed with him, then your voice was not heard. His was. Everyone there was amplifying *his* message of hate.

    Don't defend Tommy Robinson. Don't defend the shits who support him.
    Neither I nor Trevor Phillips even attempted to justify the obnoxious Robinson, but he and others made the point that many in the march were ordinary people marching because they felt ignored
    And I'm pointing out that racists are 'ordinary people' as well, and just because they feel ignored, does not make their views correct.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,510

    malcolmg said:

    First off, thanks for the entire series.

    One observation on your successes for the 2010-24 government. Both gay marriage and net zero were and are controversial with the base, but not with the public at large. In the old days of big tent parties, that sort of thing was the mark of a confident, successful party, able to reach out to the wider public. Now, parties don't seem capable of that.

    The big tents have collapsed here, much as they have in France, Germany, Spain. America seems to have a different pathology, where parties have drifted from the centre but the strength of the system has kept two parties in place- for now, anyway.

    Question is why? Failings of the old big two? Impossibility of dealing with the times we are in by anybody? A failure of society where none of us is willing to compromise on anything?

    One cheery thought to finish- five or six parties who hate each other is bad enough with a PR election. It turns FPTP into a complete lottery.

    There will be many reasons. But a biggie in my mind is that t'Internet tells far too many people that there are easy solutions to the problems that face us. As an extreme example, why should we look for real solutions, when we can just chuck out the foreigners?
    They do a lot of chucking out right enough, only 50,000+ in hotels and rising by the day, millions unaccounted for , but hey we have managed to swap two of them with France. Stupid people and do gooders cannot grasp that you cannot just dump millions of strangers in a country in a short time and think it will all be sweetness and light. You are biased entirely and don't want to even look at the topic given your own circumstances but you having a wife from outside the UK does not mean that it is right to allow unlimited people to flood into the country. It will end in tears for sure.
    This morning the media are highlighting 1,694 arrivals in 3 days and just 3 sent out
    Of course, the focus on the trivial number doing a swappsies with someone else in France doesn't leave space for the government to get a message across about the number of people here illegally who are being deported back to their country of origin. That's what they should be focusing on, but it hardly gets a mention.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,025
    boulay said:

    Good article thank you.

    On other matters I was listening to an interview with a GB athlete who won silver in the women’s 200m last night. I was quite surprised at how incredibly articulate and interesting she was. Then about ten mins later reading up on sports news she appeared, a Cambridge graduate, good looking, fun personality too, Amy Hunt looks like she’s going to be a star.

    Has anyone ever graduated more rapidly than that?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,203

    Roger said:

    Interesting interview on BBC News last night with a few of Tommy Robinson's flag wavers. They were asked why they chose to follow the several times convicted Tommy?

    They said they were just ordinary working people who thought it was time that the English reclaimed their country. They were publicans and said Tommy represented the working class. When they were asked what they meant by 'The English' they preferred not to say

    This is where the 'White British' shite that spread recently - including on here - is so pernicious. It's not just about Muslims; it's not just about boat people. It's about anyone who is seen as being 'different'.
    The narrative seems to be we’re not providing for our own because the government’s resources are being devoted to illegal migrants arriving on boats. It needs to be dismantled. But not sure how.
    The graph of doom:



    https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2024/10/26/the-publics-surprising-choice-of-tax-increase-and-why-we-should-ignore-it/

    Some falsehoods are so deeply embedded in the psyche that they are almost impossible to dismantle. Especially when cynical politicians and breathless commentators hype them up.

    In the good old days, the wiser older members of the pack would have taken such people to one side, warned them about lying and kicked them out into the snow for a repeat offence. Now we elevate them.
    It’s all in the framing.
    On our state broadcaster this am it’s reported that ‘over a thousand people arrived by boats in the Channel yesterday. So far three people have been returned on flights to France on the governments one in, one out deal.’
    I cannot believe that conjunction is not the result of a deliberate decision.
    Noone forced SKS to negotiate a 17 in, 1 out, then that one back in again agreement. It doesn't seem unreasonable that how that astonishingly low bar is failing to be met is being reported. I'm confident if it was the other lot in we'd have reports on how many were coming in as against being exported to Rwanda.
  • Trump’s tech deal will subordinate UK to America
    https://unherd.com/newsroom/trumps-tech-deal-will-subordinate-uk-to-america/
  • Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    First off, thanks for the entire series.

    One observation on your successes for the 2010-24 government. Both gay marriage and net zero were and are controversial with the base, but not with the public at large. In the old days of big tent parties, that sort of thing was the mark of a confident, successful party, able to reach out to the wider public. Now, parties don't seem capable of that.

    The big tents have collapsed here, much as they have in France, Germany, Spain. America seems to have a different pathology, where parties have drifted from the centre but the strength of the system has kept two parties in place- for now, anyway.

    Question is why? Failings of the old big two? Impossibility of dealing with the times we are in by anybody? A failure of society where none of us is willing to compromise on anything?

    One cheery thought to finish- five or six parties who hate each other is bad enough with a PR election. It turns FPTP into a complete lottery.

    There will be many reasons. But a biggie in my mind is that t'Internet tells far too many people that there are easy solutions to the problems that face us. As an extreme example, why should we look for real solutions, when we can just chuck out the foreigners?
    They do a lot of chucking out right enough, only 50,000+ in hotels and rising by the day, millions unaccounted for , but hey we have managed to swap two of them with France. Stupid people and do gooders cannot grasp that you cannot just dump millions of strangers in a country in a short time and think it will all be sweetness and light. You are biased entirely and don't want to even look at the topic given your own circumstances but you having a wife from outside the UK does not mean that it is right to allow unlimited people to flood into the country. It will end in tears for sure.
    I'm not saying it is right to allow unlimited people into the country, and never have. The whole situation is a mess, and lots of people (including lawyers...) are making a lot of money out of it, whilst the public suffer.

    *BUT* the talk is going far too far. Massive numbers of immigrants contribute to society, and even keep our services going. Yet it's becoming that anyone who cannot trace their Britishness back for umpteen generations is the enemy. It's not about boat people; it's about all immigrants.

    We also need to remember that immigrants are people too, and someone calling for them to be drowned at sea should be put adrift into a boat in the North Sea to see how they like it.
    I’m really sick of this ‘immigrants keep our services going’ guff. Our services keep going due to the contribution of ALL involved in it. Your line just diminishes the efforts of non migrants.
    Not to mention that immigrants use services as well.

    As well as require housing, contribute to transport congestion, add to pressure on the environment etc.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,629
    edited September 20
    carnforth said:

    Cicero said:

    Roger said:

    An odd move by Kemi coming out against a Palestinian state. I can understand her desire to get herself noticed but this would seem a strange choice. One unlikely to be supported even by her dwindling fan base

    But strongly supported by the American right who are considering donations to Reform.

    Banning foreign money in British politics is now an urgent priority.
    Indeed it is:

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/puberty-blocker-drug-firm-donated-cash-to-lib-dems-cf3x77nh3
    On checking, it's paywalled, but if it's the story reported elsewhere, that is a UK company. A subsidiary of a foreign firm, but still a UK company.

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,510
    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    First off, thanks for the entire series.

    One observation on your successes for the 2010-24 government. Both gay marriage and net zero were and are controversial with the base, but not with the public at large. In the old days of big tent parties, that sort of thing was the mark of a confident, successful party, able to reach out to the wider public. Now, parties don't seem capable of that.

    The big tents have collapsed here, much as they have in France, Germany, Spain. America seems to have a different pathology, where parties have drifted from the centre but the strength of the system has kept two parties in place- for now, anyway.

    Question is why? Failings of the old big two? Impossibility of dealing with the times we are in by anybody? A failure of society where none of us is willing to compromise on anything?

    One cheery thought to finish- five or six parties who hate each other is bad enough with a PR election. It turns FPTP into a complete lottery.

    There will be many reasons. But a biggie in my mind is that t'Internet tells far too many people that there are easy solutions to the problems that face us. As an extreme example, why should we look for real solutions, when we can just chuck out the foreigners?
    They do a lot of chucking out right enough, only 50,000+ in hotels and rising by the day, millions unaccounted for , but hey we have managed to swap two of them with France. Stupid people and do gooders cannot grasp that you cannot just dump millions of strangers in a country in a short time and think it will all be sweetness and light. You are biased entirely and don't want to even look at the topic given your own circumstances but you having a wife from outside the UK does not mean that it is right to allow unlimited people to flood into the country. It will end in tears for sure.
    I'm not saying it is right to allow unlimited people into the country, and never have. The whole situation is a mess, and lots of people (including lawyers...) are making a lot of money out of it, whilst the public suffer.

    *BUT* the talk is going far too far. Massive numbers of immigrants contribute to society, and even keep our services going. Yet it's becoming that anyone who cannot trace their Britishness back for umpteen generations is the enemy. It's not about boat people; it's about all immigrants.

    We also need to remember that immigrants are people too, and someone calling for them to be drowned at sea should be put adrift into a boat in the North Sea to see how they like it.
    I’m really sick of this ‘immigrants keep our services going’ guff. Our services keep going due to the contribution of ALL involved in it. Your line just diminishes the efforts of non migrants.
    It is also nonsensical to conflate healthcare professionals coming to the UK with a work visa with chancers on small boats.
  • Battlebus said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Thank goodness, seems Labour may well axe the two child benefit cap.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy917g0420o

    With our ballooning surplus and endlessly overflowing national coffers, I'm ever so grateful they've found a way to finally spend some of our excess cash.

    The two child cap is basically ideological. We can't have all those lower classes breeding..... Instead we are importing populations of unknown provenance and (ideologically) we don't like that either.

    Politics has a way of producing the worst possible outcomes.
    So removing the two child cap would encourage lower class immigrants to breed more.

    An even worse possible outcome.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,377
    Taz said:

    He'll stop the boats by laying on flights instead.
    Most Lib Dem’s are pro open door inward migration. He’ll struggle with his policy here
    What makes you say that apart from the fact it's a cheap jibe?

    I would regard myself as a typical LD and even I can say there is a huge economic and socio-cultural issue which is far more than just "the boats" but let's deal with the boats. We need to get the backlog of asylum cases cleared and we need to look at a process which seems to allow endless rights of appeal for what seem to be many to be spurious reasons.

    I've never had a problem with the concept of a points-based immigration system and nor do I have an issue (apart from the resources) of finding and where appropriate deporting anyone who is here illegally such as visa overstayers.

    At Mrs Stodge's birthday lunch yesterday, I unfortunately had to hear the stupidity of some of the more extreme Reform supporters among her circle of friends - they were openly calling for the army to be deployed to the beaches and for people arriving on boats to be shot on sight. That's where the anti-immigration rhetoric ends up - state sanctioned murder.

    Others were criticising the RNLI for rescuing people in trouble at sea - that's where the debate has taken us.

    The issue has been allowed to fester in the public consciousness because successive Governments have been unable to come up with a coherent, legal and effective solution to those trying to cross the Channel (as well as other methods of illegal entry). Beyond that, there is the abuse of the term "human rights" which for many now seems to be prevarication and good money for lawyers.
  • malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    First off, thanks for the entire series.

    One observation on your successes for the 2010-24 government. Both gay marriage and net zero were and are controversial with the base, but not with the public at large. In the old days of big tent parties, that sort of thing was the mark of a confident, successful party, able to reach out to the wider public. Now, parties don't seem capable of that.

    The big tents have collapsed here, much as they have in France, Germany, Spain. America seems to have a different pathology, where parties have drifted from the centre but the strength of the system has kept two parties in place- for now, anyway.

    Question is why? Failings of the old big two? Impossibility of dealing with the times we are in by anybody? A failure of society where none of us is willing to compromise on anything?

    One cheery thought to finish- five or six parties who hate each other is bad enough with a PR election. It turns FPTP into a complete lottery.

    There will be many reasons. But a biggie in my mind is that t'Internet tells far too many people that there are easy solutions to the problems that face us. As an extreme example, why should we look for real solutions, when we can just chuck out the foreigners?
    They do a lot of chucking out right enough, only 50,000+ in hotels and rising by the day, millions unaccounted for , but hey we have managed to swap two of them with France. Stupid people and do gooders cannot grasp that you cannot just dump millions of strangers in a country in a short time and think it will all be sweetness and light. You are biased entirely and don't want to even look at the topic given your own circumstances but you having a wife from outside the UK does not mean that it is right to allow unlimited people to flood into the country. It will end in tears for sure.
    This morning the media are highlighting 1,694 arrivals in 3 days and just 3 sent out
    they have added another 50% to their deported , really getting on with smashing those gangs right enough G. I find it hard to understand why people are surprised that support for Farage is rising so fast, the optics are unbelievable.
    And when you read this thread you can see why Reform will continue to grow which is something that really worries me

    The accusations that anyone on the 150,000 is either a Robinson supporter or dumb just fails to recognise the anger of millions that see only Farage is listening to them
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,543

    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    First off, thanks for the entire series.

    One observation on your successes for the 2010-24 government. Both gay marriage and net zero were and are controversial with the base, but not with the public at large. In the old days of big tent parties, that sort of thing was the mark of a confident, successful party, able to reach out to the wider public. Now, parties don't seem capable of that.

    The big tents have collapsed here, much as they have in France, Germany, Spain. America seems to have a different pathology, where parties have drifted from the centre but the strength of the system has kept two parties in place- for now, anyway.

    Question is why? Failings of the old big two? Impossibility of dealing with the times we are in by anybody? A failure of society where none of us is willing to compromise on anything?

    One cheery thought to finish- five or six parties who hate each other is bad enough with a PR election. It turns FPTP into a complete lottery.

    There will be many reasons. But a biggie in my mind is that t'Internet tells far too many people that there are easy solutions to the problems that face us. As an extreme example, why should we look for real solutions, when we can just chuck out the foreigners?
    They do a lot of chucking out right enough, only 50,000+ in hotels and rising by the day, millions unaccounted for , but hey we have managed to swap two of them with France. Stupid people and do gooders cannot grasp that you cannot just dump millions of strangers in a country in a short time and think it will all be sweetness and light. You are biased entirely and don't want to even look at the topic given your own circumstances but you having a wife from outside the UK does not mean that it is right to allow unlimited people to flood into the country. It will end in tears for sure.
    I'm not saying it is right to allow unlimited people into the country, and never have. The whole situation is a mess, and lots of people (including lawyers...) are making a lot of money out of it, whilst the public suffer.

    *BUT* the talk is going far too far. Massive numbers of immigrants contribute to society, and even keep our services going. Yet it's becoming that anyone who cannot trace their Britishness back for umpteen generations is the enemy. It's not about boat people; it's about all immigrants.

    We also need to remember that immigrants are people too, and someone calling for them to be drowned at sea should be put adrift into a boat in the North Sea to see how they like it.
    I’m really sick of this ‘immigrants keep our services going’ guff. Our services keep going due to the contribution of ALL involved in it. Your line just diminishes the efforts of non migrants.
    Not to mention that immigrants use services as well.

    As well as require housing, contribute to transport congestion, add to pressure on the environment etc.
    Okay. You and @Taz can only use public services that are not provided by immigrants. You will have to wait for a White British bin crew to come along to have your bins emptied; if you need A&E, you will have to wait for a White British ambulance crew, And when in hospital, you can only be treated by White British doctors and nurses. You can only get petrol from a petrol station that has White British staff, and only travel on public transport that has White British staff.

    That'll go well for you.
  • malcolmg said:

    First off, thanks for the entire series.

    One observation on your successes for the 2010-24 government. Both gay marriage and net zero were and are controversial with the base, but not with the public at large. In the old days of big tent parties, that sort of thing was the mark of a confident, successful party, able to reach out to the wider public. Now, parties don't seem capable of that.

    The big tents have collapsed here, much as they have in France, Germany, Spain. America seems to have a different pathology, where parties have drifted from the centre but the strength of the system has kept two parties in place- for now, anyway.

    Question is why? Failings of the old big two? Impossibility of dealing with the times we are in by anybody? A failure of society where none of us is willing to compromise on anything?

    One cheery thought to finish- five or six parties who hate each other is bad enough with a PR election. It turns FPTP into a complete lottery.

    There will be many reasons. But a biggie in my mind is that t'Internet tells far too many people that there are easy solutions to the problems that face us. As an extreme example, why should we look for real solutions, when we can just chuck out the foreigners?
    They do a lot of chucking out right enough, only 50,000+ in hotels and rising by the day, millions unaccounted for , but hey we have managed to swap two of them with France. Stupid people and do gooders cannot grasp that you cannot just dump millions of strangers in a country in a short time and think it will all be sweetness and light. You are biased entirely and don't want to even look at the topic given your own circumstances but you having a wife from outside the UK does not mean that it is right to allow unlimited people to flood into the country. It will end in tears for sure.
    This morning the media are highlighting 1,694 arrivals in 3 days and just 3 sent out
    Of course, the focus on the trivial number doing a swappsies with someone else in France doesn't leave space for the government to get a message across about the number of people here illegally who are being deported back to their country of origin. That's what they should be focusing on, but it hardly gets a mention.
    The government publish the data:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/immigration-system-statistics-year-ending-june-2025

    But since we don't live in the United States, the government can't really pressure the media much about what stories to cover.

    Janet Street-Porter (one of the people who broke Britain by accident) once had a mantra "News is entertainment, entertainment is news." That's even more dismally true when news channels have to fill 24 hours a day and keep people hooked.

    Risible government failures will always be more entertaining than small government wins. Even if the accumulation of small wins is how success happens.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 7,315
    Carnyx said:

    carnforth said:

    Cicero said:

    Roger said:

    An odd move by Kemi coming out against a Palestinian state. I can understand her desire to get herself noticed but this would seem a strange choice. One unlikely to be supported even by her dwindling fan base

    But strongly supported by the American right who are considering donations to Reform.

    Banning foreign money in British politics is now an urgent priority.
    Indeed it is:

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/puberty-blocker-drug-firm-donated-cash-to-lib-dems-cf3x77nh3
    On checking, it's paywalled, but if it's the story reported elsewhere, that is a UK company. A subsidiary of a foreign firm, but still a UK company.

    One can set up a paper subsidiary overnight though. There would need to be a definition...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,543
    Incidentally, in case someone thinks I'm in favour of the current mess, I'm pretty sure that I never criticised the previous government's Rwanda scheme.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,403

    Roger said:

    Interesting interview on BBC News last night with a few of Tommy Robinson's flag wavers being asked why they chose to follow the several times convicted Tommy? They said they were just ordinary working people who thought it was time that the English reclaimed their country. They were publicans and said Tommy represented the working class. When they were asked what they meant by 'The English' they preferred not to say

    Sir Trevor Phillips of Sky who joined the protests to gauge opinion said he was really surprised just how many quite ordinary people were ar the March who reject Tommy Robinson and all he stands for but they simply felt ignored and found this March the best way to protest

    It is a mistake the left are making, and continue to make, that the 150,000 demonstrators are far right and as long as the left continue this the stronger Reform will grow
    That's B/S. If you were on the march, Robinson used you, and gained from your presence. That means either you support his far-right policies, or you are as dumb as fuck. Or both. His voice and beliefs got amplified, not yours.
    Sorry telling people they are dumb as f... is hardly a winning argument

    And by the way Sir Trevor Phillips warned about this attitude, and he is an expert on the subject being the former head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission and a member of the labour party
    It's not a winning argument, but it's true. And it needs saying.

    The march was about Tommy Robinson. His message got amplified. If you were there and disagreed with him, then your voice was not heard. His was. Everyone there was amplifying *his* message of hate.

    Don't defend Tommy Robinson. Don't defend the shits who support him.
    Neither I nor Trevor Phillips even attempted to justify the obnoxious Robinson, but he and others made the point that many in the march were ordinary people marching because they felt ignored

    Ordinary people do the most extraordinary things when led to do so.

    https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/53491/ordinary-men-by-christopher-r-browning/9780141000428
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,636
    edited September 20
    Morning all.
    The challenge for the Tories imo is activating some realism on their position and maximum potential in the next few years.
    They arent forming the next government. Therefore they need to work out what, at best, they can achieve. For the next GE work out the best 200 seats in the country for them - Blue Wall, big Rural in the North, rural East, Scots borders, Labour marginals with below average Reform vote, North, West and Wealthy Central London and where they don't hold them get PPCs in right now and work the arse off them relentlessly. Go into an election to win 90 to 150 of them and hang on.
    For the locals, identify the councils that can be clung on to and focus on them and throw everything at winning a mayoralty or two, in London they'll definitely lose Bexley to Ref and probably Bromley too (but remaining largest party in NOC) but there is potential for 1 to 3 pick ups further West - Westminster very likely and both Barnet and Wandsworth can be targeted, get a win ot two to celebrate and build on.
    Holyrood - its going to be their worst ever seat result so try and hold on to constituencies to at least have 'a base' to work from. Ettrick etc, Dumfriesshire should stay blue and I guess West Aberdeenshire, Banff, Ayr, D and G, Perthshire and Eastwood will be where the rest of the effort is entirely focused, winning the initial 2 plus any of those would be 'something' but they realistically are looking at 4th or 5th in seats
    Senedd - turning out the vote is key to maximising seats. They ought to get something in at least the following pairs - Monmouth/Torfaen, Clwyd (these two are the only ones where 2 seats are possible imo), Bangor/Ynys mon, Vale of Glamorgan pair, Pembrokeshire pair, Brecon pair, so working those heavily to GOTV. They should be aiming for 10 to 12 to stay in the game.

    Its dirty work striving only to underachieve vs history but its all they can and should do for now. The alternative is no longer being a thing
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 7,315

    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    First off, thanks for the entire series.

    One observation on your successes for the 2010-24 government. Both gay marriage and net zero were and are controversial with the base, but not with the public at large. In the old days of big tent parties, that sort of thing was the mark of a confident, successful party, able to reach out to the wider public. Now, parties don't seem capable of that.

    The big tents have collapsed here, much as they have in France, Germany, Spain. America seems to have a different pathology, where parties have drifted from the centre but the strength of the system has kept two parties in place- for now, anyway.

    Question is why? Failings of the old big two? Impossibility of dealing with the times we are in by anybody? A failure of society where none of us is willing to compromise on anything?

    One cheery thought to finish- five or six parties who hate each other is bad enough with a PR election. It turns FPTP into a complete lottery.

    There will be many reasons. But a biggie in my mind is that t'Internet tells far too many people that there are easy solutions to the problems that face us. As an extreme example, why should we look for real solutions, when we can just chuck out the foreigners?
    They do a lot of chucking out right enough, only 50,000+ in hotels and rising by the day, millions unaccounted for , but hey we have managed to swap two of them with France. Stupid people and do gooders cannot grasp that you cannot just dump millions of strangers in a country in a short time and think it will all be sweetness and light. You are biased entirely and don't want to even look at the topic given your own circumstances but you having a wife from outside the UK does not mean that it is right to allow unlimited people to flood into the country. It will end in tears for sure.
    I'm not saying it is right to allow unlimited people into the country, and never have. The whole situation is a mess, and lots of people (including lawyers...) are making a lot of money out of it, whilst the public suffer.

    *BUT* the talk is going far too far. Massive numbers of immigrants contribute to society, and even keep our services going. Yet it's becoming that anyone who cannot trace their Britishness back for umpteen generations is the enemy. It's not about boat people; it's about all immigrants.

    We also need to remember that immigrants are people too, and someone calling for them to be drowned at sea should be put adrift into a boat in the North Sea to see how they like it.
    I’m really sick of this ‘immigrants keep our services going’ guff. Our services keep going due to the contribution of ALL involved in it. Your line just diminishes the efforts of non migrants.
    Not to mention that immigrants use services as well.

    As well as require housing, contribute to transport congestion, add to pressure on the environment etc.
    Okay. You and @Taz can only use public services that are not provided by immigrants. You will have to wait for a White British bin crew to come along to have your bins emptied; if you need A&E, you will have to wait for a White British ambulance crew, And when in hospital, you can only be treated by White British doctors and nurses. You can only get petrol from a petrol station that has White British staff, and only travel on public transport that has White British staff.

    That'll go well for you.
    Our dependence on immigrants is a choice, good or bad. Presenting it as inevitable is rewriting history.

    Absent immigration, your paragraph above would simply be a description of reality.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,543
    carnforth said:

    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    First off, thanks for the entire series.

    One observation on your successes for the 2010-24 government. Both gay marriage and net zero were and are controversial with the base, but not with the public at large. In the old days of big tent parties, that sort of thing was the mark of a confident, successful party, able to reach out to the wider public. Now, parties don't seem capable of that.

    The big tents have collapsed here, much as they have in France, Germany, Spain. America seems to have a different pathology, where parties have drifted from the centre but the strength of the system has kept two parties in place- for now, anyway.

    Question is why? Failings of the old big two? Impossibility of dealing with the times we are in by anybody? A failure of society where none of us is willing to compromise on anything?

    One cheery thought to finish- five or six parties who hate each other is bad enough with a PR election. It turns FPTP into a complete lottery.

    There will be many reasons. But a biggie in my mind is that t'Internet tells far too many people that there are easy solutions to the problems that face us. As an extreme example, why should we look for real solutions, when we can just chuck out the foreigners?
    They do a lot of chucking out right enough, only 50,000+ in hotels and rising by the day, millions unaccounted for , but hey we have managed to swap two of them with France. Stupid people and do gooders cannot grasp that you cannot just dump millions of strangers in a country in a short time and think it will all be sweetness and light. You are biased entirely and don't want to even look at the topic given your own circumstances but you having a wife from outside the UK does not mean that it is right to allow unlimited people to flood into the country. It will end in tears for sure.
    I'm not saying it is right to allow unlimited people into the country, and never have. The whole situation is a mess, and lots of people (including lawyers...) are making a lot of money out of it, whilst the public suffer.

    *BUT* the talk is going far too far. Massive numbers of immigrants contribute to society, and even keep our services going. Yet it's becoming that anyone who cannot trace their Britishness back for umpteen generations is the enemy. It's not about boat people; it's about all immigrants.

    We also need to remember that immigrants are people too, and someone calling for them to be drowned at sea should be put adrift into a boat in the North Sea to see how they like it.
    I’m really sick of this ‘immigrants keep our services going’ guff. Our services keep going due to the contribution of ALL involved in it. Your line just diminishes the efforts of non migrants.
    Not to mention that immigrants use services as well.

    As well as require housing, contribute to transport congestion, add to pressure on the environment etc.
    Okay. You and @Taz can only use public services that are not provided by immigrants. You will have to wait for a White British bin crew to come along to have your bins emptied; if you need A&E, you will have to wait for a White British ambulance crew, And when in hospital, you can only be treated by White British doctors and nurses. You can only get petrol from a petrol station that has White British staff, and only travel on public transport that has White British staff.

    That'll go well for you.
    Our dependence on immigrants is a choice, good or bad. Presenting it as inevitable is rewriting history.

    Absent immigration, your paragraph above would simply be a description of reality.
    We have always had immigration. Not at the levels we have at the moment, true, but there has always been immigration. And there have always been racists.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,389
    edited September 20
    Cookie said:

    Roger said:

    Interesting interview on BBC News last night with a few of Tommy Robinson's flag wavers. They were asked why they chose to follow the several times convicted Tommy?

    They said they were just ordinary working people who thought it was time that the English reclaimed their country. They were publicans and said Tommy represented the working class. When they were asked what they meant by 'The English' they preferred not to say

    This is where the 'White British' shite that spread recently - including on here - is so pernicious. It's not just about Muslims; it's not just about boat people. It's about anyone who is seen as being 'different'.
    The narrative seems to be we’re not providing for our own because the government’s resources are being devoted to illegal migrants arriving on boats. It needs to be dismantled. But not sure how.
    The graph of doom:



    https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2024/10/26/the-publics-surprising-choice-of-tax-increase-and-why-we-should-ignore-it/

    Some falsehoods are so deeply embedded in the psyche that they are almost impossible to dismantle. Especially when cynical politicians and breathless commentators hype them up.

    In the good old days, the wiser older members of the pack would have taken such people to one side, warned them about lying and kicked them out into the snow for a repeat offence. Now we elevate them.
    It’s all in the framing.
    On our state broadcaster this am it’s reported that ‘over a thousand people arrived by boats in the Channel yesterday. So far three people have been returned on flights to France on the governments one in, one out deal.’
    I cannot believe that conjunction is not the result of a deliberate decision.
    Noone forced SKS to negotiate a 17 in, 1 out, then that one back in again agreement. It doesn't seem unreasonable that how that astonishingly low bar is failing to be met is being reported. I'm confident if it was the other lot in we'd have reports on how many were coming in as against being exported to Rwanda.
    Not being preternaturally obsessed with the subject, I don’t recall how the state broadcaster reported tens of thousand of boat people v those sent to Rwanda at a cost of X.
    As stated I just found the immediate conjunction whiffy.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,257

    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    First off, thanks for the entire series.

    One observation on your successes for the 2010-24 government. Both gay marriage and net zero were and are controversial with the base, but not with the public at large. In the old days of big tent parties, that sort of thing was the mark of a confident, successful party, able to reach out to the wider public. Now, parties don't seem capable of that.

    The big tents have collapsed here, much as they have in France, Germany, Spain. America seems to have a different pathology, where parties have drifted from the centre but the strength of the system has kept two parties in place- for now, anyway.

    Question is why? Failings of the old big two? Impossibility of dealing with the times we are in by anybody? A failure of society where none of us is willing to compromise on anything?

    One cheery thought to finish- five or six parties who hate each other is bad enough with a PR election. It turns FPTP into a complete lottery.

    There will be many reasons. But a biggie in my mind is that t'Internet tells far too many people that there are easy solutions to the problems that face us. As an extreme example, why should we look for real solutions, when we can just chuck out the foreigners?
    They do a lot of chucking out right enough, only 50,000+ in hotels and rising by the day, millions unaccounted for , but hey we have managed to swap two of them with France. Stupid people and do gooders cannot grasp that you cannot just dump millions of strangers in a country in a short time and think it will all be sweetness and light. You are biased entirely and don't want to even look at the topic given your own circumstances but you having a wife from outside the UK does not mean that it is right to allow unlimited people to flood into the country. It will end in tears for sure.
    I'm not saying it is right to allow unlimited people into the country, and never have. The whole situation is a mess, and lots of people (including lawyers...) are making a lot of money out of it, whilst the public suffer.

    *BUT* the talk is going far too far. Massive numbers of immigrants contribute to society, and even keep our services going. Yet it's becoming that anyone who cannot trace their Britishness back for umpteen generations is the enemy. It's not about boat people; it's about all immigrants.

    We also need to remember that immigrants are people too, and someone calling for them to be drowned at sea should be put adrift into a boat in the North Sea to see how they like it.
    I’m really sick of this ‘immigrants keep our services going’ guff. Our services keep going due to the contribution of ALL involved in it. Your line just diminishes the efforts of non migrants.
    Not to mention that immigrants use services as well.

    As well as require housing, contribute to transport congestion, add to pressure on the environment etc.
    Okay. You and @Taz can only use public services that are not provided by immigrants. You will have to wait for a White British bin crew to come along to have your bins emptied; if you need A&E, you will have to wait for a White British ambulance crew, And when in hospital, you can only be treated by White British doctors and nurses. You can only get petrol from a petrol station that has White British staff, and only travel on public transport that has White British staff.

    That'll go well for you.
    This is very much a fait accompli.

    And yes, we have to accept that what's happened has happened. We can't turn the clock back. But that doesn't mean the future isn't up for debate.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,782
    edited September 20
    Morning, PB.

    Very inadequate edition of Newsnight last night. First its budget was cut, and now it's time has been cut. Most of the reporting has gone, and presenters have been imported from five live. As one might expect, the results are that the tone of the programme ismoving towards banal, rushed infotainment.
  • TazTaz Posts: 21,214

    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    First off, thanks for the entire series.

    One observation on your successes for the 2010-24 government. Both gay marriage and net zero were and are controversial with the base, but not with the public at large. In the old days of big tent parties, that sort of thing was the mark of a confident, successful party, able to reach out to the wider public. Now, parties don't seem capable of that.

    The big tents have collapsed here, much as they have in France, Germany, Spain. America seems to have a different pathology, where parties have drifted from the centre but the strength of the system has kept two parties in place- for now, anyway.

    Question is why? Failings of the old big two? Impossibility of dealing with the times we are in by anybody? A failure of society where none of us is willing to compromise on anything?

    One cheery thought to finish- five or six parties who hate each other is bad enough with a PR election. It turns FPTP into a complete lottery.

    There will be many reasons. But a biggie in my mind is that t'Internet tells far too many people that there are easy solutions to the problems that face us. As an extreme example, why should we look for real solutions, when we can just chuck out the foreigners?
    They do a lot of chucking out right enough, only 50,000+ in hotels and rising by the day, millions unaccounted for , but hey we have managed to swap two of them with France. Stupid people and do gooders cannot grasp that you cannot just dump millions of strangers in a country in a short time and think it will all be sweetness and light. You are biased entirely and don't want to even look at the topic given your own circumstances but you having a wife from outside the UK does not mean that it is right to allow unlimited people to flood into the country. It will end in tears for sure.
    I'm not saying it is right to allow unlimited people into the country, and never have. The whole situation is a mess, and lots of people (including lawyers...) are making a lot of money out of it, whilst the public suffer.

    *BUT* the talk is going far too far. Massive numbers of immigrants contribute to society, and even keep our services going. Yet it's becoming that anyone who cannot trace their Britishness back for umpteen generations is the enemy. It's not about boat people; it's about all immigrants.

    We also need to remember that immigrants are people too, and someone calling for them to be drowned at sea should be put adrift into a boat in the North Sea to see how they like it.
    I’m really sick of this ‘immigrants keep our services going’ guff. Our services keep going due to the contribution of ALL involved in it. Your line just diminishes the efforts of non migrants.
    Not to mention that immigrants use services as well.

    As well as require housing, contribute to transport congestion, add to pressure on the environment etc.
    Okay. You and @Taz can only use public services that are not provided by immigrants. You will have to wait for a White British bin crew to come along to have your bins emptied; if you need A&E, you will have to wait for a White British ambulance crew, And when in hospital, you can only be treated by White British doctors and nurses. You can only get petrol from a petrol station that has White British staff, and only travel on public transport that has White British staff.

    That'll go well for you.
    Grow up you silly fucker. That is not what either of us are saying and you know it.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,543
    tlg86 said:

    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    First off, thanks for the entire series.

    One observation on your successes for the 2010-24 government. Both gay marriage and net zero were and are controversial with the base, but not with the public at large. In the old days of big tent parties, that sort of thing was the mark of a confident, successful party, able to reach out to the wider public. Now, parties don't seem capable of that.

    The big tents have collapsed here, much as they have in France, Germany, Spain. America seems to have a different pathology, where parties have drifted from the centre but the strength of the system has kept two parties in place- for now, anyway.

    Question is why? Failings of the old big two? Impossibility of dealing with the times we are in by anybody? A failure of society where none of us is willing to compromise on anything?

    One cheery thought to finish- five or six parties who hate each other is bad enough with a PR election. It turns FPTP into a complete lottery.

    There will be many reasons. But a biggie in my mind is that t'Internet tells far too many people that there are easy solutions to the problems that face us. As an extreme example, why should we look for real solutions, when we can just chuck out the foreigners?
    They do a lot of chucking out right enough, only 50,000+ in hotels and rising by the day, millions unaccounted for , but hey we have managed to swap two of them with France. Stupid people and do gooders cannot grasp that you cannot just dump millions of strangers in a country in a short time and think it will all be sweetness and light. You are biased entirely and don't want to even look at the topic given your own circumstances but you having a wife from outside the UK does not mean that it is right to allow unlimited people to flood into the country. It will end in tears for sure.
    I'm not saying it is right to allow unlimited people into the country, and never have. The whole situation is a mess, and lots of people (including lawyers...) are making a lot of money out of it, whilst the public suffer.

    *BUT* the talk is going far too far. Massive numbers of immigrants contribute to society, and even keep our services going. Yet it's becoming that anyone who cannot trace their Britishness back for umpteen generations is the enemy. It's not about boat people; it's about all immigrants.

    We also need to remember that immigrants are people too, and someone calling for them to be drowned at sea should be put adrift into a boat in the North Sea to see how they like it.
    I’m really sick of this ‘immigrants keep our services going’ guff. Our services keep going due to the contribution of ALL involved in it. Your line just diminishes the efforts of non migrants.
    Not to mention that immigrants use services as well.

    As well as require housing, contribute to transport congestion, add to pressure on the environment etc.
    Okay. You and @Taz can only use public services that are not provided by immigrants. You will have to wait for a White British bin crew to come along to have your bins emptied; if you need A&E, you will have to wait for a White British ambulance crew, And when in hospital, you can only be treated by White British doctors and nurses. You can only get petrol from a petrol station that has White British staff, and only travel on public transport that has White British staff.

    That'll go well for you.
    This is very much a fait accompli.

    And yes, we have to accept that what's happened has happened. We can't turn the clock back. But that doesn't mean the future isn't up for debate.
    How do you see 'the future'?

    Because the vision of the likes of Robinson is *really* bleak.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,403
    tlg86 said:

    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    First off, thanks for the entire series.

    One observation on your successes for the 2010-24 government. Both gay marriage and net zero were and are controversial with the base, but not with the public at large. In the old days of big tent parties, that sort of thing was the mark of a confident, successful party, able to reach out to the wider public. Now, parties don't seem capable of that.

    The big tents have collapsed here, much as they have in France, Germany, Spain. America seems to have a different pathology, where parties have drifted from the centre but the strength of the system has kept two parties in place- for now, anyway.

    Question is why? Failings of the old big two? Impossibility of dealing with the times we are in by anybody? A failure of society where none of us is willing to compromise on anything?

    One cheery thought to finish- five or six parties who hate each other is bad enough with a PR election. It turns FPTP into a complete lottery.

    There will be many reasons. But a biggie in my mind is that t'Internet tells far too many people that there are easy solutions to the problems that face us. As an extreme example, why should we look for real solutions, when we can just chuck out the foreigners?
    They do a lot of chucking out right enough, only 50,000+ in hotels and rising by the day, millions unaccounted for , but hey we have managed to swap two of them with France. Stupid people and do gooders cannot grasp that you cannot just dump millions of strangers in a country in a short time and think it will all be sweetness and light. You are biased entirely and don't want to even look at the topic given your own circumstances but you having a wife from outside the UK does not mean that it is right to allow unlimited people to flood into the country. It will end in tears for sure.
    I'm not saying it is right to allow unlimited people into the country, and never have. The whole situation is a mess, and lots of people (including lawyers...) are making a lot of money out of it, whilst the public suffer.

    *BUT* the talk is going far too far. Massive numbers of immigrants contribute to society, and even keep our services going. Yet it's becoming that anyone who cannot trace their Britishness back for umpteen generations is the enemy. It's not about boat people; it's about all immigrants.

    We also need to remember that immigrants are people too, and someone calling for them to be drowned at sea should be put adrift into a boat in the North Sea to see how they like it.
    I’m really sick of this ‘immigrants keep our services going’ guff. Our services keep going due to the contribution of ALL involved in it. Your line just diminishes the efforts of non migrants.
    Not to mention that immigrants use services as well.

    As well as require housing, contribute to transport congestion, add to pressure on the environment etc.
    Okay. You and @Taz can only use public services that are not provided by immigrants. You will have to wait for a White British bin crew to come along to have your bins emptied; if you need A&E, you will have to wait for a White British ambulance crew, And when in hospital, you can only be treated by White British doctors and nurses. You can only get petrol from a petrol station that has White British staff, and only travel on public transport that has White British staff.

    That'll go well for you.
    This is very much a fait accompli.

    And yes, we have to accept that what's happened has happened. We can't turn the clock back. But that doesn't mean the future isn't up for debate.
    Increasingly though the right does intend "remigration" and not just of illegal immigrants, so does intend to turn the clock back.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,719

    tlg86 said:

    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    First off, thanks for the entire series.

    One observation on your successes for the 2010-24 government. Both gay marriage and net zero were and are controversial with the base, but not with the public at large. In the old days of big tent parties, that sort of thing was the mark of a confident, successful party, able to reach out to the wider public. Now, parties don't seem capable of that.

    The big tents have collapsed here, much as they have in France, Germany, Spain. America seems to have a different pathology, where parties have drifted from the centre but the strength of the system has kept two parties in place- for now, anyway.

    Question is why? Failings of the old big two? Impossibility of dealing with the times we are in by anybody? A failure of society where none of us is willing to compromise on anything?

    One cheery thought to finish- five or six parties who hate each other is bad enough with a PR election. It turns FPTP into a complete lottery.

    There will be many reasons. But a biggie in my mind is that t'Internet tells far too many people that there are easy solutions to the problems that face us. As an extreme example, why should we look for real solutions, when we can just chuck out the foreigners?
    They do a lot of chucking out right enough, only 50,000+ in hotels and rising by the day, millions unaccounted for , but hey we have managed to swap two of them with France. Stupid people and do gooders cannot grasp that you cannot just dump millions of strangers in a country in a short time and think it will all be sweetness and light. You are biased entirely and don't want to even look at the topic given your own circumstances but you having a wife from outside the UK does not mean that it is right to allow unlimited people to flood into the country. It will end in tears for sure.
    I'm not saying it is right to allow unlimited people into the country, and never have. The whole situation is a mess, and lots of people (including lawyers...) are making a lot of money out of it, whilst the public suffer.

    *BUT* the talk is going far too far. Massive numbers of immigrants contribute to society, and even keep our services going. Yet it's becoming that anyone who cannot trace their Britishness back for umpteen generations is the enemy. It's not about boat people; it's about all immigrants.

    We also need to remember that immigrants are people too, and someone calling for them to be drowned at sea should be put adrift into a boat in the North Sea to see how they like it.
    I’m really sick of this ‘immigrants keep our services going’ guff. Our services keep going due to the contribution of ALL involved in it. Your line just diminishes the efforts of non migrants.
    Not to mention that immigrants use services as well.

    As well as require housing, contribute to transport congestion, add to pressure on the environment etc.
    Okay. You and @Taz can only use public services that are not provided by immigrants. You will have to wait for a White British bin crew to come along to have your bins emptied; if you need A&E, you will have to wait for a White British ambulance crew, And when in hospital, you can only be treated by White British doctors and nurses. You can only get petrol from a petrol station that has White British staff, and only travel on public transport that has White British staff.

    That'll go well for you.
    This is very much a fait accompli.

    And yes, we have to accept that what's happened has happened. We can't turn the clock back. But that doesn't mean the future isn't up for debate.
    How do you see 'the future'?

    Because the vision of the likes of Robinson is *really* bleak.
    Something more cheering?


    Polls this week show...

    ▪️Marine Le Pens National Rally is number 1 in France 🇫🇷

    ▪️Georgia Meloni Brothers of Italy is number 1 in Italy 🇮🇹

    ▪️Right-wing Freedom Party is number 1 in Austria 🇦🇹

    ▪️The right-wing AfD party is number 1 in Germany 🇩🇪
  • Morning, PB.

    Very inadequate edition of Newsnight last night. First its budget was cut, and now it's time has been cut. Most of the reporting has gone, and presenters have been imported from five live. Thd results are that the atmosphere is moving to banal, rushed infotainment.

    And it’s neither informative or entertaining, lose lose.
  • Some of the most significant and long term effects of the Conservative government will be from its pension reforms.

    Auto enrolment and ending the requirement to buy an annuity will lead to ordinary people building up a financial asset worth hundreds of thousands.

    I suspect this so outrages some leftists that they are now advocating increased taxation of pensions merely out of spite.
This discussion has been closed.