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Bridget Phillipson needs to channel her inner David Cameron – politicalbetting.com

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  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 32,615
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    IanB2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Comparing Communism to Fascism as ideologies is not quite the same as whether somebody identifying as a Communist is likely to be as unsavoury and dangerous a person as somebody identifying as a Fascist. You can make a strong case for the ideologies being equally antithetical to human freedom and happiness but faced with two lifts, one occupied by a bloke wearing a swastika and the other by one sporting a hammer and sickle, ok you'd take the stairs, but if you couldn't, if you had to get in one of these lifts, you'd surely join the commie. Anybody says otherwise I'm not believing them.

    That’s cultural conditioning, though. Most of us of a certain age grew up on films depicting the evil Germans at war and with the holocaust front and centre as exhibit A of their evil. The gulag archipelago wasn’t even widely known in the west until our adulthood, and how many top billing films are there about it?
    There certainly is some of that. But it's also the point about fascism having violence and hatred in its dna whereas communism to the naive or unwary can be an idealistic set of ideas centred on equality and the emancipation of the poor. The only ideal in fascism is the supremacy of a race or people or nation. And 'strongman' is a feature not a bug, ie it celebrates in concept authoritarian rule. So I'm going to cut less slack to somebody signing up for that compared to somebody saying they believe in communism. Not much, don't get me wrong, but to my mind there is a clear difference when boiled down to the individual believer in this way.
    There’s also the motivations of the mass movements that both ideologies required. It’s understandable, rational and even admirable that a barely emancipated Russian peasant who can hardly feed his children would want a fairer redistribution of wealth, even if the ultimate consequences were terrible. You can fathom the motives of a comparatively privileged German bouncing off defeat in one imperial war wanting to make Germany great again by stealing from and destroying its own minorities and subjugating other nations, but it’s not close to admirable even if the end result was similarly awful for them.
    Yes absolutely. This is a PB repeater, isn't it, Fascism v Communism, and it surprises me slightly that it is, because to me it's clear that whilst both are abominations only one is wholly without mitigation as to intent and motivation.
    I do not immediately see why someone who wants to improve their situation using violence is better than someone who wants to retain their situation by voting in a strong man. Self-interest is the motivating factor in both cases.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,619
    edited September 16

    isam said:

    boulay said:

    “ Sir Keir Starmer has said there would be “no flights, no Rwanda scheme” if Labour wins power.”

    Well he wasn’t lying so that’s good.

    But the thing is, he is doing all he can.

    Now that might not be very much, and that not very much that he is doing might not be very much use to anyone, but it's probably better than what any of the other choices we have as PM would be doing

    Am I getting the hang of it @Stuartinromford?
    Touched by the attention, obviously, but nowhere near.
    Similar to Peter Hitchens reaction to the Tony Lapidus impression of him. “Nothing like me!!”
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,568

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Peter Hitchens was a student Trotskyist, too. And many other 1980's conservatives.
    Of course the millions who died under Stalin used their last breath to mutter "At least I'm dying for a noble cause - how bad would it be to be killed by a Nazi?"
    A lot of them - e.g, Bukharin - did.

    Why? Because they thought that repudiating him would damage Communism.

    That's actually the scariest thing about the whole shebang - the religious fervour it inspired.
    Communism is just another religion.
    On the topic of Nick Lowles, someone had to infiltrate the violent far right groups, the police were far too busy going undercover in the green movement trying to incite them into acts of mild law-breaking.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,428
    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sandpit said:

    Is speaking without notes a thing still?

    I rocked up to the last seat selection hustings I went to completely without notes. Knew my opening and closing comments verbatim and my key points. Completely flummoxed one of the other candidates who had reams of notes and even then kept forgetting her point.
    It's much better if you can. I gave my maiden speech in Parliament entirely from notes, as I was nervous. It was a bit rubbish, whereas later speeches without notes were better (though I'll never sway the millions).
    I’ve taught myself to play an extrovert and to be able to speak in public over the years, with bullet points and cue cards for a familiar subject - but a maiden speech in Parliament is one of those you’re going to want in front of you written out in full!
    As somebody who regularly gives speeches to large meetings I've learned it is best to write bullet points down (and key gags) down rather than the whole speech.

    I once used a teleprompter and it was a bigger disaster than the Liz Truss premiership, I kept on looking at that and completely losing my focus.

    Had I become an MP my first speech to Parliament would have begun like this

    'Hello, my name is Mr Eagles, and I'm an alcoholic, oh wait, wrong speech.'
    Yes, with a couple of key points which act as waypoints within the speech.

    Same when I am presenting sales stuff to clients. Slides are few in number and literally there as visual aides. And often not used at all much to the annoyance of colleagues who think 704 slides are best.
    The most tedious presentations are those where the presenter reads the slides verbatim.
    Generally the fewer the words on the slide the better. I had a lecturer in my UG days who had a roll of handwritten OHP acetate which he read off word for word and scrolled ever upwards. (Pre powerpoint, obs). It was terrible.
    We had a biology teacher who was even worse.
    He read word for word and had us write it all down verbatim.
    Only O Level I failed.
    We had a physics teacher like that. It was extremely boring but weirdly, it worked for me - through writing it down, the words passed from his mouth to my memory without at any point lodging in my conscious brain.
    Yes, same. Chemistry in my case. An ultra trad teacher who dictated copious notes and told us to learn them. I did, and cruised to a top grade. We didn't get percentages, just the letter, but it would have been my highest, I think.
    I think this is interesting. Current ‘best’ practice for us involves using PowerPoint so the darlings don’t need to write anything down. And in advance too, please. And lectures being recorded.

    And I still think having to listen and make notes as you go was best.
    Yes, I agree.
    I found if I didn't HAVE to take notes, my attention drifted and nothing went in. If I did, I somehow managed to gain all the knowledge effortlessly, apart from a slightly tired writing hand.
    A few years ago I got a Remarkable tablet (about $200 used on eBay), and it serves that purpose. I absolutely love it.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 5,357

    kinabalu said:

    kjh said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    Comparing Nazism and Communism as ideologies is perhaps a category error, because they are not strictly comparable.

    Communism is a universalist, evangelical religion like Christianity or Islam. The upside of that is inclusivity: anyone can belong if they convert to the faith. The downside is violence: if you don’t convert, you are fair game for destruction.

    Ethno-fascism is an identity based religion like Hinduism or some of the Middle Eastern sects like the Druze. There is an in group and an out group. The upside could be that they leave you alone if you leave them alone (though the Nazis clearly didn’t do that). The downside is that if you’re not in the in group you’re sub-human and therefore fair game for destruction.

    I prefer centrist dada-ism myself.

    And one is a perversion of political economy, whereas one is a perversion of science.
    What are you driving at here, Lucky?
    I wondered the same, but then assumed Communism is the perversion of economics and Fascism is a perversion of science. Am I correct @Luckyguy1983 ?
    Yes.
    How is fascism a perversion of science? I sense I'm going to like the answer but what is it?
    Fascism isn't really (to my knowledge), but Tim was talking about Nazism and that of course definitely is, with its deeply damaging and wrong-headed take on Darwin. The theory of 'master' and 'slave' races, or even stupider, of 'good' and 'bad' races, badly misreads Darwin because it suggests that evolution can 'get it wrong'. It's also against the theory of creation, because it suggests that God can get it wrong.
    I've been re-reading "The Meaning of Liff" recently, so I feel like a Douglas Adams quote is self-merited :

    The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist,'" says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
    "But," says Man, "The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
    "Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
    "Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,363

    kinabalu said:

    kjh said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    Comparing Nazism and Communism as ideologies is perhaps a category error, because they are not strictly comparable.

    Communism is a universalist, evangelical religion like Christianity or Islam. The upside of that is inclusivity: anyone can belong if they convert to the faith. The downside is violence: if you don’t convert, you are fair game for destruction.

    Ethno-fascism is an identity based religion like Hinduism or some of the Middle Eastern sects like the Druze. There is an in group and an out group. The upside could be that they leave you alone if you leave them alone (though the Nazis clearly didn’t do that). The downside is that if you’re not in the in group you’re sub-human and therefore fair game for destruction.

    I prefer centrist dada-ism myself.

    And one is a perversion of political economy, whereas one is a perversion of science.
    What are you driving at here, Lucky?
    I wondered the same, but then assumed Communism is the perversion of economics and Fascism is a perversion of science. Am I correct @Luckyguy1983 ?
    Yes.
    How is fascism a perversion of science? I sense I'm going to like the answer but what is it?
    Fascism isn't really (to my knowledge), but Tim was talking about Nazism and that of course definitely is, with its deeply damaging and wrong-headed take on Darwin. The theory of 'master' and 'slave' races, or even stupider, of 'good' and 'bad' races, badly misreads Darwin because it suggests that evolution can 'get it wrong'. It's also against the theory of creation, because it suggests that God can get it wrong.
    Yes, what rot. There's more than a hint of this in the 'defending our white Christian heritage against the incoming hordes' narrative being pushed ever more brazenly (see Musk) by the populist right.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,666
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    A potential Reform/Con coalition government only 5 seats short of a majority in Wales according to this.

    "Cavendish Cymru
    @CavendishCymru

    📊 Here's our Senedd seat projection for the ITV Wales/YouGov poll.

    Reform UK: 36 Seats
    Plaid Cymru: 36 Seats
    Labour: 13 seats
    Conservatives: 8 seats
    Liberal Democrats: 2 seats
    Green Party: 1 seat"

    https://x.com/CavendishCymru/status/1967990812157022516

    PC/Labour would have the maj
    So the best way to remove Labour from power in Wales is to vote Reform or Tory, Plaid will govern with Labour anyway
    The only drawback being that you'd then get Tory and Reform.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,839
    edited September 16
    With respect to my earlier comments on the integration of religion and politics in Maga, here's a good illustration from Charlie Kirk - a one minute video clip from a speech he made on August 10th 2025.

    https://x.com/ILA_NewsX/status/1965161972015800434

    I'll trace where the language (eg "The Spiritual Battle", "Christendom" in usage in 2025 of the USA) comes from another time, but I guess not many PBers are familiar with C Peter Wagner and the New Apostolic Reformation. The "Seven Mountain Mandate" may be more familiar to some.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,353
    HYUFD said:

    Barnesian said:

    "Switching matrix" based on latest polls by six pollsters.


    Well and truly hung.

    So Tories, Labour and even LDs all leaking most to Reform, although only the Tories leaking more to Reform than all other parties combined
    The LDs leaking to Reform may be Labour supporters who voted tactically for the LDs in 2024 and have now switched to Reform. I've come across a few on the local ex Council estate.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,428

    The judicial system is broken when it comes to asylum and immigration, because politicians have put in place competing laws. You are inviting judges to opine on time-sensitive matters that are contrary to a whole acquis of human rights/ECHR legal opinion, it is hardly surprising that we get decisions like this.

    MPs need to grow a spine and fix the contradictions that they helped create. The only way of doing so it asserting sovereignty and overriding the courts. I get that Parliament is queasy about the precedent this sets, but they’ve helped create the problem and they’re the only ones with the power to fix it.

    It's not so much overriding the courts, so much as making the law such that their role is much more limited.

    It always amazes me how poor the UK is at some of these things compared to some of our neighbours.
  • Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    IanB2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Comparing Communism to Fascism as ideologies is not quite the same as whether somebody identifying as a Communist is likely to be as unsavoury and dangerous a person as somebody identifying as a Fascist. You can make a strong case for the ideologies being equally antithetical to human freedom and happiness but faced with two lifts, one occupied by a bloke wearing a swastika and the other by one sporting a hammer and sickle, ok you'd take the stairs, but if you couldn't, if you had to get in one of these lifts, you'd surely join the commie. Anybody says otherwise I'm not believing them.

    That’s cultural conditioning, though. Most of us of a certain age grew up on films depicting the evil Germans at war and with the holocaust front and centre as exhibit A of their evil. The gulag archipelago wasn’t even widely known in the west until our adulthood, and how many top billing films are there about it?
    There certainly is some of that. But it's also the point about fascism having violence and hatred in its dna whereas communism to the naive or unwary can be an idealistic set of ideas centred on equality and the emancipation of the poor. The only ideal in fascism is the supremacy of a race or people or nation. And 'strongman' is a feature not a bug, ie it celebrates in concept authoritarian rule. So I'm going to cut less slack to somebody signing up for that compared to somebody saying they believe in communism. Not much, don't get me wrong, but to my mind there is a clear difference when boiled down to the individual believer in this way.
    There’s also the motivations of the mass movements that both ideologies required. It’s understandable, rational and even admirable that a barely emancipated Russian peasant who can hardly feed his children would want a fairer redistribution of wealth, even if the ultimate consequences were terrible. You can fathom the motives of a comparatively privileged German bouncing off defeat in one imperial war wanting to make Germany great again by stealing from and destroying its own minorities and subjugating other nations, but it’s not close to admirable even if the end result was similarly awful for them.
    Yes absolutely. This is a PB repeater, isn't it, Fascism v Communism, and it surprises me slightly that it is, because to me it's clear that whilst both are abominations only one is wholly without mitigation as to intent and motivation.
    To anyone who lived in the twentieth century - or even knows any twentieth century history - both are reprehensible.
    But not the same thing, hence the endless conversation.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 32,615
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kjh said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    Comparing Nazism and Communism as ideologies is perhaps a category error, because they are not strictly comparable.

    Communism is a universalist, evangelical religion like Christianity or Islam. The upside of that is inclusivity: anyone can belong if they convert to the faith. The downside is violence: if you don’t convert, you are fair game for destruction.

    Ethno-fascism is an identity based religion like Hinduism or some of the Middle Eastern sects like the Druze. There is an in group and an out group. The upside could be that they leave you alone if you leave them alone (though the Nazis clearly didn’t do that). The downside is that if you’re not in the in group you’re sub-human and therefore fair game for destruction.

    I prefer centrist dada-ism myself.

    And one is a perversion of political economy, whereas one is a perversion of science.
    What are you driving at here, Lucky?
    I wondered the same, but then assumed Communism is the perversion of economics and Fascism is a perversion of science. Am I correct @Luckyguy1983 ?
    Yes.
    How is fascism a perversion of science? I sense I'm going to like the answer but what is it?
    Fascism isn't really (to my knowledge), but Tim was talking about Nazism and that of course definitely is, with its deeply damaging and wrong-headed take on Darwin. The theory of 'master' and 'slave' races, or even stupider, of 'good' and 'bad' races, badly misreads Darwin because it suggests that evolution can 'get it wrong'. It's also against the theory of creation, because it suggests that God can get it wrong.
    Yes, what rot. There's more than a hint of this in the 'defending our white Christian heritage against the incoming hordes' narrative being pushed ever more brazenly (see Musk) by the populist right.
    But isn't it also there in the cultural cringe that sees white people and European culture as a scourge upon the world that must be extinguished, subsumed, or in a perpetual state of apology? That is an equal illusion.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,568
    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @lookner

    Charlie Kirk shooting suspect Tyler Robinson's texts with roommate, from charging document

    https://x.com/lookner/status/1968025297791619252

    September 10th 2022 ?
    He's been after Kirk for three years
    It's a typo
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,363

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    IanB2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Comparing Communism to Fascism as ideologies is not quite the same as whether somebody identifying as a Communist is likely to be as unsavoury and dangerous a person as somebody identifying as a Fascist. You can make a strong case for the ideologies being equally antithetical to human freedom and happiness but faced with two lifts, one occupied by a bloke wearing a swastika and the other by one sporting a hammer and sickle, ok you'd take the stairs, but if you couldn't, if you had to get in one of these lifts, you'd surely join the commie. Anybody says otherwise I'm not believing them.

    That’s cultural conditioning, though. Most of us of a certain age grew up on films depicting the evil Germans at war and with the holocaust front and centre as exhibit A of their evil. The gulag archipelago wasn’t even widely known in the west until our adulthood, and how many top billing films are there about it?
    There certainly is some of that. But it's also the point about fascism having violence and hatred in its dna whereas communism to the naive or unwary can be an idealistic set of ideas centred on equality and the emancipation of the poor. The only ideal in fascism is the supremacy of a race or people or nation. And 'strongman' is a feature not a bug, ie it celebrates in concept authoritarian rule. So I'm going to cut less slack to somebody signing up for that compared to somebody saying they believe in communism. Not much, don't get me wrong, but to my mind there is a clear difference when boiled down to the individual believer in this way.
    There’s also the motivations of the mass movements that both ideologies required. It’s understandable, rational and even admirable that a barely emancipated Russian peasant who can hardly feed his children would want a fairer redistribution of wealth, even if the ultimate consequences were terrible. You can fathom the motives of a comparatively privileged German bouncing off defeat in one imperial war wanting to make Germany great again by stealing from and destroying its own minorities and subjugating other nations, but it’s not close to admirable even if the end result was similarly awful for them.
    Yes absolutely. This is a PB repeater, isn't it, Fascism v Communism, and it surprises me slightly that it is, because to me it's clear that whilst both are abominations only one is wholly without mitigation as to intent and motivation.
    I do not immediately see why someone who wants to improve their situation using violence is better than someone who wants to retain their situation by voting in a strong man. Self-interest is the motivating factor in both cases.
    Punching up vs punching down, is my immediate response.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,522
    edited September 16
    The Don has landed. Let the shits and giggles commence.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,478
    Is that a 767?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,363

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kjh said:

    kinabalu said:

    TimS said:

    Comparing Nazism and Communism as ideologies is perhaps a category error, because they are not strictly comparable.

    Communism is a universalist, evangelical religion like Christianity or Islam. The upside of that is inclusivity: anyone can belong if they convert to the faith. The downside is violence: if you don’t convert, you are fair game for destruction.

    Ethno-fascism is an identity based religion like Hinduism or some of the Middle Eastern sects like the Druze. There is an in group and an out group. The upside could be that they leave you alone if you leave them alone (though the Nazis clearly didn’t do that). The downside is that if you’re not in the in group you’re sub-human and therefore fair game for destruction.

    I prefer centrist dada-ism myself.

    And one is a perversion of political economy, whereas one is a perversion of science.
    What are you driving at here, Lucky?
    I wondered the same, but then assumed Communism is the perversion of economics and Fascism is a perversion of science. Am I correct @Luckyguy1983 ?
    Yes.
    How is fascism a perversion of science? I sense I'm going to like the answer but what is it?
    Fascism isn't really (to my knowledge), but Tim was talking about Nazism and that of course definitely is, with its deeply damaging and wrong-headed take on Darwin. The theory of 'master' and 'slave' races, or even stupider, of 'good' and 'bad' races, badly misreads Darwin because it suggests that evolution can 'get it wrong'. It's also against the theory of creation, because it suggests that God can get it wrong.
    Yes, what rot. There's more than a hint of this in the 'defending our white Christian heritage against the incoming hordes' narrative being pushed ever more brazenly (see Musk) by the populist right.
    But isn't it also there in the cultural cringe that sees white people and European culture as a scourge upon the world that must be extinguished, subsumed, or in a perpetual state of apology? That is an equal illusion.
    That's a little bit different. That's a guilt driven reaction to previous assumptions of white racial supremacy.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,243
    Barnesian said:

    HYUFD said:

    Barnesian said:

    "Switching matrix" based on latest polls by six pollsters.


    Well and truly hung.

    So Tories, Labour and even LDs all leaking most to Reform, although only the Tories leaking more to Reform than all other parties combined
    The LDs leaking to Reform may be Labour supporters who voted tactically for the LDs in 2024 and have now switched to Reform. I've come across a few on the local ex Council estate.
    Or just NOTA voters who have found a new plaything
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,091

    The Don has landed. Let the shits and giggles commence.

    I'm glad Mrs J is not flying out of Stansted this evening. It'll be interesting there...
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,478
    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sandpit said:

    Is speaking without notes a thing still?

    I rocked up to the last seat selection hustings I went to completely without notes. Knew my opening and closing comments verbatim and my key points. Completely flummoxed one of the other candidates who had reams of notes and even then kept forgetting her point.
    It's much better if you can. I gave my maiden speech in Parliament entirely from notes, as I was nervous. It was a bit rubbish, whereas later speeches without notes were better (though I'll never sway the millions).
    I’ve taught myself to play an extrovert and to be able to speak in public over the years, with bullet points and cue cards for a familiar subject - but a maiden speech in Parliament is one of those you’re going to want in front of you written out in full!
    As somebody who regularly gives speeches to large meetings I've learned it is best to write bullet points down (and key gags) down rather than the whole speech.

    I once used a teleprompter and it was a bigger disaster than the Liz Truss premiership, I kept on looking at that and completely losing my focus.

    Had I become an MP my first speech to Parliament would have begun like this

    'Hello, my name is Mr Eagles, and I'm an alcoholic, oh wait, wrong speech.'
    Yes, with a couple of key points which act as waypoints within the speech.

    Same when I am presenting sales stuff to clients. Slides are few in number and literally there as visual aides. And often not used at all much to the annoyance of colleagues who think 704 slides are best.
    The most tedious presentations are those where the presenter reads the slides verbatim.
    Generally the fewer the words on the slide the better. I had a lecturer in my UG days who had a roll of handwritten OHP acetate which he read off word for word and scrolled ever upwards. (Pre powerpoint, obs). It was terrible.
    We had a biology teacher who was even worse.
    He read word for word and had us write it all down verbatim.
    Only O Level I failed.
    We had a physics teacher like that. It was extremely boring but weirdly, it worked for me - through writing it down, the words passed from his mouth to my memory without at any point lodging in my conscious brain.
    Yes, same. Chemistry in my case. An ultra trad teacher who dictated copious notes and told us to learn them. I did, and cruised to a top grade. We didn't get percentages, just the letter, but it would have been my highest, I think.
    One under recognised point of school is to allow people to thrive on boredom. A lot of work is boring grind, and building ability to cope with that is a key life skill. If students are required to be constantly stimulated by noise, sound and movement, then it's no wonder that they struggle to knuckle down at work. We have trained them into ADHD, even before we gave them smartphones and Social Media.

    Pretty much everything with doing requires effort, concentration and persistence. Students should be taught this, by means of dull teaching.
    Agree 100%. Boredom is quite often a good thing, especially when it comes to learning. Attempting to make education exciting and interesting all the time is not necessarily a good idea.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,363
    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    IanB2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Comparing Communism to Fascism as ideologies is not quite the same as whether somebody identifying as a Communist is likely to be as unsavoury and dangerous a person as somebody identifying as a Fascist. You can make a strong case for the ideologies being equally antithetical to human freedom and happiness but faced with two lifts, one occupied by a bloke wearing a swastika and the other by one sporting a hammer and sickle, ok you'd take the stairs, but if you couldn't, if you had to get in one of these lifts, you'd surely join the commie. Anybody says otherwise I'm not believing them.

    That’s cultural conditioning, though. Most of us of a certain age grew up on films depicting the evil Germans at war and with the holocaust front and centre as exhibit A of their evil. The gulag archipelago wasn’t even widely known in the west until our adulthood, and how many top billing films are there about it?
    There certainly is some of that. But it's also the point about fascism having violence and hatred in its dna whereas communism to the naive or unwary can be an idealistic set of ideas centred on equality and the emancipation of the poor. The only ideal in fascism is the supremacy of a race or people or nation. And 'strongman' is a feature not a bug, ie it celebrates in concept authoritarian rule. So I'm going to cut less slack to somebody signing up for that compared to somebody saying they believe in communism. Not much, don't get me wrong, but to my mind there is a clear difference when boiled down to the individual believer in this way.
    There’s also the motivations of the mass movements that both ideologies required. It’s understandable, rational and even admirable that a barely emancipated Russian peasant who can hardly feed his children would want a fairer redistribution of wealth, even if the ultimate consequences were terrible. You can fathom the motives of a comparatively privileged German bouncing off defeat in one imperial war wanting to make Germany great again by stealing from and destroying its own minorities and subjugating other nations, but it’s not close to admirable even if the end result was similarly awful for them.
    Yes absolutely. This is a PB repeater, isn't it, Fascism v Communism, and it surprises me slightly that it is, because to me it's clear that whilst both are abominations only one is wholly without mitigation as to intent and motivation.
    To anyone who lived in the twentieth century - or even knows any twentieth century history - both are reprehensible.
    I was stronger - 'abominations' I went with.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,247
    Has communism worked anywhere?

    I can think of two places where Fascism arguably worked

    Spain, perhaps

    Chile, definitely
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,091
    Andy_JS said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sandpit said:

    Is speaking without notes a thing still?

    I rocked up to the last seat selection hustings I went to completely without notes. Knew my opening and closing comments verbatim and my key points. Completely flummoxed one of the other candidates who had reams of notes and even then kept forgetting her point.
    It's much better if you can. I gave my maiden speech in Parliament entirely from notes, as I was nervous. It was a bit rubbish, whereas later speeches without notes were better (though I'll never sway the millions).
    I’ve taught myself to play an extrovert and to be able to speak in public over the years, with bullet points and cue cards for a familiar subject - but a maiden speech in Parliament is one of those you’re going to want in front of you written out in full!
    As somebody who regularly gives speeches to large meetings I've learned it is best to write bullet points down (and key gags) down rather than the whole speech.

    I once used a teleprompter and it was a bigger disaster than the Liz Truss premiership, I kept on looking at that and completely losing my focus.

    Had I become an MP my first speech to Parliament would have begun like this

    'Hello, my name is Mr Eagles, and I'm an alcoholic, oh wait, wrong speech.'
    Yes, with a couple of key points which act as waypoints within the speech.

    Same when I am presenting sales stuff to clients. Slides are few in number and literally there as visual aides. And often not used at all much to the annoyance of colleagues who think 704 slides are best.
    The most tedious presentations are those where the presenter reads the slides verbatim.
    Generally the fewer the words on the slide the better. I had a lecturer in my UG days who had a roll of handwritten OHP acetate which he read off word for word and scrolled ever upwards. (Pre powerpoint, obs). It was terrible.
    We had a biology teacher who was even worse.
    He read word for word and had us write it all down verbatim.
    Only O Level I failed.
    We had a physics teacher like that. It was extremely boring but weirdly, it worked for me - through writing it down, the words passed from his mouth to my memory without at any point lodging in my conscious brain.
    Yes, same. Chemistry in my case. An ultra trad teacher who dictated copious notes and told us to learn them. I did, and cruised to a top grade. We didn't get percentages, just the letter, but it would have been my highest, I think.
    One under recognised point of school is to allow people to thrive on boredom. A lot of work is boring grind, and building ability to cope with that is a key life skill. If students are required to be constantly stimulated by noise, sound and movement, then it's no wonder that they struggle to knuckle down at work. We have trained them into ADHD, even before we gave them smartphones and Social Media.

    Pretty much everything with doing requires effort, concentration and persistence. Students should be taught this, by means of dull teaching.
    Agree 100%. Boredom is quite often a good thing, especially when it comes to learning. Attempting to make education exciting and interesting all the time is not necessarily a good idea.
    I think it depends on the kid and the subject. The 'right' approach for teaching a subject depends on the individual kid. which is one way smaller class sizes helps - a good teacher can slightly alter the approach to the kids.

    One size does not fit all.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,091
    Leon said:

    Has communism worked anywhere?

    I can think of two places where Fascism arguably worked

    Spain, perhaps

    Chile, definitely

    Where has capitalism worked?

    Nowhere, as pure capitalism has never been attempted. It has always had a 'public' aspect - even in the USA.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,668
    edited September 16
    Leon said:

    Has communism worked anywhere?

    I can think of two places where Fascism arguably worked

    Spain, perhaps

    Chile, definitely

    Cuba has been partially s6ccesful, in literacy and health standards compared to the rest of Latin Anerica, if nothing else.

    Needless to say, there are also major issues of authoritarianism. I don't know what Raul Castro is up to, these days.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,530
    MattW said:

    With respect to my earlier comments on the integration of religion and politics in Maga, here's a good illustration from Charlie Kirk - a one minute video clip from a speech he made on August 10th 2025.

    https://x.com/ILA_NewsX/status/1965161972015800434

    I'll trace where the language (eg "The Spiritual Battle", "Christendom" in usage in 2025 of the USA) comes from another time, but I guess not many PBers are familiar with C Peter Wagner and the New Apostolic Reformation. The "Seven Mountain Mandate" may be more familiar to some.

    Only on PB ...

    (and that's not a complaint)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,428
    Shall I tell you what really annoys me? (Among other things)

    There are numerous people who (a) aren't good people, and (b) have been treated pretty poorly.

    But somehow, because of the mistreatment, they are elevated to the position of martyr.

    Lucy Connelly is one. She definitely didn't deserve the sentence she got (and probably didn't deserve a custodial one at all). But she is still someone who professed hersellf (at the very least) unbothered by people being burned to death. That's not a nice person.

    And then there's Kilmar Armando Ábrego García. Even if you determine that the traffic stop in Tennessee was not him being involved in people smuggling, you still need to remember that his ex-wife got a protective order against him for domestic violence. He's also probably not a very nice person.

    Finally there's Charlie Kirk. Should he have been shot? Hell no. People should be allowed to go around without fear of violence irrespective of their political views. But did he say some pretty vile things? Yeah... I think so.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,530
    edited September 16
    Barnesian said:

    Carnyx said:

    carnforth said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sandpit said:

    Is speaking without notes a thing still?

    I rocked up to the last seat selection hustings I went to completely without notes. Knew my opening and closing comments verbatim and my key points. Completely flummoxed one of the other candidates who had reams of notes and even then kept forgetting her point.
    It's much better if you can. I gave my maiden speech in Parliament entirely from notes, as I was nervous. It was a bit rubbish, whereas later speeches without notes were better (though I'll never sway the millions).
    I’ve taught myself to play an extrovert and to be able to speak in public over the years, with bullet points and cue cards for a familiar subject - but a maiden speech in Parliament is one of those you’re going to want in front of you written out in full!
    As somebody who regularly gives speeches to large meetings I've learned it is best to write bullet points down (and key gags) down rather than the whole speech.

    I once used a teleprompter and it was a bigger disaster than the Liz Truss premiership, I kept on looking at that and completely losing my focus.

    Had I become an MP my first speech to Parliament would have begun like this

    'Hello, my name is Mr Eagles, and I'm an alcoholic, oh wait, wrong speech.'
    Yes, with a couple of key points which act as waypoints within the speech.

    Same when I am presenting sales stuff to clients. Slides are few in number and literally there as visual aides. And often not used at all much to the annoyance of colleagues who think 704 slides are best.
    The most tedious presentations are those where the presenter reads the slides verbatim.
    Generally the fewer the words on the slide the better. I had a lecturer in my UG days who had a roll of handwritten OHP acetate which he read off word for word and scrolled ever upwards. (Pre powerpoint, obs). It was terrible.
    We had a biology teacher who was even worse.
    He read word for word and had us write it all down verbatim.
    Only O Level I failed.
    We had a physics teacher like that. It was extremely boring but weirdly, it worked for me - through writing it down, the words passed from his mouth to my memory without at any point lodging in my conscious brain.
    Yes, same. Chemistry in my case. An ultra trad teacher who dictated copious notes and told us to learn them. I did, and cruised to a top grade. We didn't get percentages, just the letter, but it would have been my highest, I think.
    One under recognised point of school is to allow people to thrive on boredom. A lot of work is boring grind, and building ability to cope with that is a key life skill. If students are required to be constantly stimulated by noise, sound and movement, then it's no wonder that they struggle to knuckle down at work. We have trained them into ADHD, even before we gave them smartphones and Social Media.

    Pretty much everything with doing requires effort, concentration and persistence. Students should be taught this, by means of dull teaching.
    I almost flagged this. I mean, it's probably true but my whole heart wants it not to be.
    Anyone who has singled turnip seedlings on a farm all day knows it's true. I've done it for a living - very fortunately only as a student in vacation. The worst job I ever did, and I did some pretty heavy and mucky stuff.
    One summer vac, I cleaned out between the rails at Temple Meads railway station. That was mucky stuff.
    Yes, but at least you had things to look at. Trains. Even girls/boys (delete as/if appropriate). The odd incident. Not the same earth and hedge all day. I learnt to tell the time from the position of the sun alone, and took an interest in the weather that might be coming in an hour's time.

    #usefullifeskills
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,428
    edited September 16
    Carnyx said:

    Barnesian said:

    Carnyx said:

    carnforth said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sandpit said:

    Is speaking without notes a thing still?

    I rocked up to the last seat selection hustings I went to completely without notes. Knew my opening and closing comments verbatim and my key points. Completely flummoxed one of the other candidates who had reams of notes and even then kept forgetting her point.
    It's much better if you can. I gave my maiden speech in Parliament entirely from notes, as I was nervous. It was a bit rubbish, whereas later speeches without notes were better (though I'll never sway the millions).
    I’ve taught myself to play an extrovert and to be able to speak in public over the years, with bullet points and cue cards for a familiar subject - but a maiden speech in Parliament is one of those you’re going to want in front of you written out in full!
    As somebody who regularly gives speeches to large meetings I've learned it is best to write bullet points down (and key gags) down rather than the whole speech.

    I once used a teleprompter and it was a bigger disaster than the Liz Truss premiership, I kept on looking at that and completely losing my focus.

    Had I become an MP my first speech to Parliament would have begun like this

    'Hello, my name is Mr Eagles, and I'm an alcoholic, oh wait, wrong speech.'
    Yes, with a couple of key points which act as waypoints within the speech.

    Same when I am presenting sales stuff to clients. Slides are few in number and literally there as visual aides. And often not used at all much to the annoyance of colleagues who think 704 slides are best.
    The most tedious presentations are those where the presenter reads the slides verbatim.
    Generally the fewer the words on the slide the better. I had a lecturer in my UG days who had a roll of handwritten OHP acetate which he read off word for word and scrolled ever upwards. (Pre powerpoint, obs). It was terrible.
    We had a biology teacher who was even worse.
    He read word for word and had us write it all down verbatim.
    Only O Level I failed.
    We had a physics teacher like that. It was extremely boring but weirdly, it worked for me - through writing it down, the words passed from his mouth to my memory without at any point lodging in my conscious brain.
    Yes, same. Chemistry in my case. An ultra trad teacher who dictated copious notes and told us to learn them. I did, and cruised to a top grade. We didn't get percentages, just the letter, but it would have been my highest, I think.
    One under recognised point of school is to allow people to thrive on boredom. A lot of work is boring grind, and building ability to cope with that is a key life skill. If students are required to be constantly stimulated by noise, sound and movement, then it's no wonder that they struggle to knuckle down at work. We have trained them into ADHD, even before we gave them smartphones and Social Media.

    Pretty much everything with doing requires effort, concentration and persistence. Students should be taught this, by means of dull teaching.
    I almost flagged this. I mean, it's probably true but my whole heart wants it not to be.
    Anyone who has singled turnip seedlings on a farm all day knows it's true. I've done it for a living - very fortunately only as a student in vacation. The worst job I ever did, and I did some pretty heavy and mucky stuff.
    One summer vac, I cleaned out between the rails at Temple Meads railway station. That was mucky stuff.
    Yes, but at least you had things to look at. Trains. Even girls/boys (delete as/if appropriate). The odd incident. Not the same earth and hedge all day. I learnt to tell the time from the position of the sun alone, and took an interest in the weather that might be coming in an hour's time.
    Oh god. Not bloody trans again.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,530
    rcs1000 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Barnesian said:

    Carnyx said:

    carnforth said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sandpit said:

    Is speaking without notes a thing still?

    I rocked up to the last seat selection hustings I went to completely without notes. Knew my opening and closing comments verbatim and my key points. Completely flummoxed one of the other candidates who had reams of notes and even then kept forgetting her point.
    It's much better if you can. I gave my maiden speech in Parliament entirely from notes, as I was nervous. It was a bit rubbish, whereas later speeches without notes were better (though I'll never sway the millions).
    I’ve taught myself to play an extrovert and to be able to speak in public over the years, with bullet points and cue cards for a familiar subject - but a maiden speech in Parliament is one of those you’re going to want in front of you written out in full!
    As somebody who regularly gives speeches to large meetings I've learned it is best to write bullet points down (and key gags) down rather than the whole speech.

    I once used a teleprompter and it was a bigger disaster than the Liz Truss premiership, I kept on looking at that and completely losing my focus.

    Had I become an MP my first speech to Parliament would have begun like this

    'Hello, my name is Mr Eagles, and I'm an alcoholic, oh wait, wrong speech.'
    Yes, with a couple of key points which act as waypoints within the speech.

    Same when I am presenting sales stuff to clients. Slides are few in number and literally there as visual aides. And often not used at all much to the annoyance of colleagues who think 704 slides are best.
    The most tedious presentations are those where the presenter reads the slides verbatim.
    Generally the fewer the words on the slide the better. I had a lecturer in my UG days who had a roll of handwritten OHP acetate which he read off word for word and scrolled ever upwards. (Pre powerpoint, obs). It was terrible.
    We had a biology teacher who was even worse.
    He read word for word and had us write it all down verbatim.
    Only O Level I failed.
    We had a physics teacher like that. It was extremely boring but weirdly, it worked for me - through writing it down, the words passed from his mouth to my memory without at any point lodging in my conscious brain.
    Yes, same. Chemistry in my case. An ultra trad teacher who dictated copious notes and told us to learn them. I did, and cruised to a top grade. We didn't get percentages, just the letter, but it would have been my highest, I think.
    One under recognised point of school is to allow people to thrive on boredom. A lot of work is boring grind, and building ability to cope with that is a key life skill. If students are required to be constantly stimulated by noise, sound and movement, then it's no wonder that they struggle to knuckle down at work. We have trained them into ADHD, even before we gave them smartphones and Social Media.

    Pretty much everything with doing requires effort, concentration and persistence. Students should be taught this, by means of dull teaching.
    I almost flagged this. I mean, it's probably true but my whole heart wants it not to be.
    Anyone who has singled turnip seedlings on a farm all day knows it's true. I've done it for a living - very fortunately only as a student in vacation. The worst job I ever did, and I did some pretty heavy and mucky stuff.
    One summer vac, I cleaned out between the rails at Temple Meads railway station. That was mucky stuff.
    Yes, but at least you had things to look at. Trains. Even girls/boys (delete as/if appropriate). The odd incident. Not the same earth and hedge all day. I learnt to tell the time from the position of the sun alone, and took an interest in the weather that might be coming in an hour's time.
    Oh god. Not blood trans again.
    Diesel, electric, or diesel-electric?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,530

    Leon said:

    Has communism worked anywhere?

    I can think of two places where Fascism arguably worked

    Spain, perhaps

    Chile, definitely

    Where has capitalism worked?

    Nowhere, as pure capitalism has never been attempted. It has always had a 'public' aspect - even in the USA.
    Look at the trains. The transcontinental lines depended on massive donations of land to the private firms by the state (which arguably stole them from the Native Americans, in the first place). And even then they very nearly failed.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 7,123
    "But during the hearing, it emerged that while the home secretary's own officials had rejected his claim that he was a victim of slavery, they had also said in a letter today that he had a right to make further representations – and they would not expect him to do that from France."

    Theresa May and her badly-drafted Modern Slavery legislation again.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,428
    Leon said:

    Has communism worked anywhere?

    I can think of two places where Fascism arguably worked

    Spain, perhaps

    Chile, definitely

    Was Chile under Pinochet fascist? Wasn't it a fairly standard military dictatorship, similar to the rule of the Junta in Argentina, only less incompetent.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 7,123
    carnforth said:

    "But during the hearing, it emerged that while the home secretary's own officials had rejected his claim that he was a victim of slavery, they had also said in a letter today that he had a right to make further representations – and they would not expect him to do that from France."

    Theresa May and her badly-drafted Modern Slavery legislation again.

    The whole world can use Zoom. But not for asylum appeals. Oh no!
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,568
    Leon said:

    Has communism worked anywhere?

    I can think of two places where Fascism arguably worked

    Spain, perhaps

    Chile, definitely

    "worked" ? Both involved terrible internal repression and human rights violations.
    You've left Putin's Russia off the list, that has most of the characteristics of a fascist state.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,884
    Leon said:

    Has communism worked anywhere?

    I can think of two places where Fascism arguably worked

    Spain, perhaps

    Chile, definitely

    The early Christian communities in Jerusalem
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,428
    rcs1000 said:

    Shall I tell you what really annoys me? (Among other things)

    There are numerous people who (a) aren't good people, and (b) have been treated pretty poorly.

    But somehow, because of the mistreatment, they are elevated to the position of martyr.

    Lucy Connelly is one. She definitely didn't deserve the sentence she got (and probably didn't deserve a custodial one at all). But she is still someone who professed hersellf (at the very least) unbothered by people being burned to death. That's not a nice person.

    And then there's Kilmar Armando Ábrego García. Even if you determine that the traffic stop in Tennessee was not him being involved in people smuggling, you still need to remember that his ex-wife got a protective order against him for domestic violence. He's also probably not a very nice person.

    Finally there's Charlie Kirk. Should he have been shot? Hell no. People should be allowed to go around without fear of violence irrespective of their political views. But did he say some pretty vile things? Yeah... I think so.

    I think we can probably add Julian Assange and Edward Snowden to the list too.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,353

    The Don has landed. Let the shits and giggles commence.

    I'm glad Mrs J is not flying out of Stansted this evening. It'll be interesting there...
    I'm flying out of Stansted tomorrow. I'll look out for Airforce One.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,428

    Leon said:

    Has communism worked anywhere?

    I can think of two places where Fascism arguably worked

    Spain, perhaps

    Chile, definitely

    The early Christian communities in Jerusalem
    There were lots of early kibbutz in Israel (including the one where my parents met) that were pretty communistic.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 32,615
    ...

    Leon said:

    Has communism worked anywhere?

    I can think of two places where Fascism arguably worked

    Spain, perhaps

    Chile, definitely

    Where has capitalism worked?

    Nowhere, as pure capitalism has never been attempted. It has always had a 'public' aspect - even in the USA.
    Pure capitalism as described by Adam Smith has a very strong role for Government.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,274
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Has communism worked anywhere?

    I can think of two places where Fascism arguably worked

    Spain, perhaps

    Chile, definitely

    Was Chile under Pinochet fascist? Wasn't it a fairly standard military dictatorship, similar to the rule of the Junta in Argentina, only less incompetent.
    And more Neoliberal than corporatist Fascist
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,363
    Leon said:

    Has communism worked anywhere?

    I can think of two places where Fascism arguably worked

    Spain, perhaps

    Chile, definitely

    Hopefully we won't be having a bash here.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,274

    The Don has landed. Let the shits and giggles commence.

    Will he make a detour to Clacton from Stansted? He is the Messiah to Farage's John the Baptist there
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,530

    ...

    Leon said:

    Has communism worked anywhere?

    I can think of two places where Fascism arguably worked

    Spain, perhaps

    Chile, definitely

    Where has capitalism worked?

    Nowhere, as pure capitalism has never been attempted. It has always had a 'public' aspect - even in the USA.
    Pure capitalism as described by Adam Smith has a very strong role for Government.
    Indeed. Conspiracy of the merchants stuff. Incidentally I seem to recall that one then very prominent right-winger deleted some of that stuff from an edition of the Wealth of Nations to make the Kirkcaldy sage, erm, more 'libertarian'. But that was a long time ago.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,274
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    A potential Reform/Con coalition government only 5 seats short of a majority in Wales according to this.

    "Cavendish Cymru
    @CavendishCymru

    📊 Here's our Senedd seat projection for the ITV Wales/YouGov poll.

    Reform UK: 36 Seats
    Plaid Cymru: 36 Seats
    Labour: 13 seats
    Conservatives: 8 seats
    Liberal Democrats: 2 seats
    Green Party: 1 seat"

    https://x.com/CavendishCymru/status/1967990812157022516

    PC/Labour would have the maj
    So the best way to remove Labour from power in Wales is to vote Reform or Tory, Plaid will govern with Labour anyway
    Yes they probably will, but that doesn't make it less likely to happen.

    Come the Apocalypse, three things will survive - dust, cockroaches and Welsh Labour.
    Survive, maybe, in power? Maybe not, indeed certainly not as biggest party. The first time EVER Welsh Labour has failed to win most seats in Wales in a UK or Senedd election
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,428
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Has communism worked anywhere?

    I can think of two places where Fascism arguably worked

    Spain, perhaps

    Chile, definitely

    Was Chile under Pinochet fascist? Wasn't it a fairly standard military dictatorship, similar to the rule of the Junta in Argentina, only less incompetent.
    And more Neoliberal than corporatist Fascist
    That's a good point; Chile wasn't corporatist at all.

    There also wasn't any kind of political movement alongside Pinochet: he had no Party. On the contrary he groups like the IDU and RN supported the regime. But they weren't the regime.

    Nor did Chile have the kind of iconography associated with fascist movements.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,183
    Dopermean said:

    Leon said:

    Has communism worked anywhere?

    I can think of two places where Fascism arguably worked

    Spain, perhaps

    Chile, definitely

    "worked" ? Both involved terrible internal repression and human rights violations.
    You've left Putin's Russia off the list, that has most of the characteristics of a fascist state.
    Yes, Putins Russia is the clearest example of Facism in the modern world.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Has communism worked anywhere?

    I can think of two places where Fascism arguably worked

    Spain, perhaps

    Chile, definitely

    Was Chile under Pinochet fascist? Wasn't it a fairly standard military dictatorship, similar to the rule of the Junta in Argentina, only less incompetent.
    And the situation in Spain was also messy. The west worked very hard not to categorise Franco as fascist after WW2; undignified grovelling towards terrible people who might be useful isn't a novelty in diplomacy.

    Besides, there was a Spanish economic miracle, but it came after junking the actual fascists from government, replacing them with Opus Dei technocrats to run the economy (as in da Vinci Code and Ruth Kelly) and softening the regime to another fairly standard military dictatorship. Spain under Phase One Francoism was going absolutely nowhere.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,162
    I'm happy to report that Three Days of the Condor held up remarkably well.

    Outstanding moment was the 70s style phone hacking. Pure nostalgia.

    The only Oscar nomination it got that year was best editing...

    A remarkable year, not least for Fate Dunaway, who also appeared in Chinatown. Godfather II dominated the Oscars; and Mel Brooks released both Young Frankenstein and Blazing Saddles; and criminal that The Conversation, a paranoid thriller even better than Condor (and another great piece from Coppola) didn't get a best actor nomination for Gene Hackman.

    Was '75 the best year ever for movies ?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,247
    Foxy said:

    Dopermean said:

    Leon said:

    Has communism worked anywhere?

    I can think of two places where Fascism arguably worked

    Spain, perhaps

    Chile, definitely

    "worked" ? Both involved terrible internal repression and human rights violations.
    You've left Putin's Russia off the list, that has most of the characteristics of a fascist state.
    Yes, Putins Russia is the clearest example of Facism in the modern world.
    No, it’s Islamism. ISIS and the Taliban etc are extreme fascism, but with a dollop of God

    Tho Putin is certainly getting there
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,209
    kinabalu said:

    IanB2 said:

    KnightOut said:

    Foxy said:


    I dont think that we have true fascists in the UK. There are those with some sympathy for it, but not the full Monty.

    Real fascism requires paramilitary uniforms, a cult of leadership, milotarism and advocating political violence against internal and external enemies. A bunch of coked up fifty-somethings chucking beer cans at the police is just robbery, not fascism.


    And let's not forget that Fascism is only now considered 'right wing' because of Soviet post-war revisionism.

    Contemporaneous accounts of the 1930s and 1940s used a lot of terms to describe the Hitler and Mussolini regimes. 'Totalitarian', 'Despotic', plain old 'Evil'. You might've got a 'hardline Nationalist' in there when referring to Moseley.

    But these movements weren't really presented as 'right wing' until after WWII, when the 'victorious' Soviets wanted to differentiate their own brand of wrongheaded Authoritarianism and state-sanctioned death cultury, as if they were polar opposites, when of course they weren't.

    Horseshoe theory - which it didn't take long for most to twig - gets it semi-correct, but still allows the Octogenarian Strawman to remain standing.

    'Far Right' *should* mean extreme Libertarianism/anarcho-capitalism. If being on the right is being pro-individual, small state, limited government then being far-right should mean being strongly in favour of such things.

    I'd like to see a movement to Reclaim the term.
    That doesn’t really make sense, though. That the Conservatives are a right of centre party isn’t in dispute. That they’ve become more right wing since they abandoned their pragmatism for Brexit, under Johnson and Truss, and having toyed with Patel, Braverman and Jenrick also isn’t in dispute. That Reform represents a further step to the right is hard to contest, that Trump is a step further appears clear, and if you project forward it isn’t that long before you arrive at a Mussolini type dictatorship.
    It doesn't make sense because it's radical right bollocks.
    I'd be interested to know what your typical small state anarcho-capitalist libertarian thinks about policing and border control.
    A friend who's a small state anarcho-capitalist libertarian thinks it's really important we secure the borders and keep out the Muslims.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,209
    edited September 16
    boulay said:

    The judicial system is broken when it comes to asylum and immigration, because politicians have put in place competing laws. You are inviting judges to opine on time-sensitive matters that are contrary to a whole acquis of human rights/ECHR legal opinion, it is hardly surprising that we get decisions like this.

    MPs need to grow a spine and fix the contradictions that they helped create. The only way of doing so it asserting sovereignty and overriding the courts. I get that Parliament is queasy about the precedent this sets, but they’ve helped create the problem and they’re the only ones with the power to fix it.

    How does the court/legal system in the UK work with regards to immigration?

    Do cases just get randomly assigned to a judge?

    How do they decide which court (town/county) the case is heard - are there just a few courts bearing the bulk and the same few judges in areas where there is a large concentration of asylum seekers?

    If there aren’t, would it be a workable/good idea to have special immigration courts specifically to deal with a set group of selected judges who are well acquainted with immigration and human rights law?

    If there are already immigration specialist courts how are the judges appointed?

    There are specialist asylum courts, starting with https://www.gov.uk/courts-tribunals/first-tier-tribunal-immigration-and-asylum

    I think the judges are appointed like all judges are. They have to apply to work in this court AIUI.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,428

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Has communism worked anywhere?

    I can think of two places where Fascism arguably worked

    Spain, perhaps

    Chile, definitely

    Was Chile under Pinochet fascist? Wasn't it a fairly standard military dictatorship, similar to the rule of the Junta in Argentina, only less incompetent.
    And the situation in Spain was also messy. The west worked very hard not to categorise Franco as fascist after WW2; undignified grovelling towards terrible people who might be useful isn't a novelty in diplomacy.

    Besides, there was a Spanish economic miracle, but it came after junking the actual fascists from government, replacing them with Opus Dei technocrats to run the economy (as in da Vinci Code and Ruth Kelly) and softening the regime to another fairly standard military dictatorship. Spain under Phase One Francoism was going absolutely nowhere.
    You know, she's only 57. She'd be a welcome change from Starmer.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,247
    According to the telegraph, since Starmer’s “one in, one out” deal was signed six weeks ago, “6000 have come in, and zero have gone out”

    This is suicidal for Labour
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,274
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Has communism worked anywhere?

    I can think of two places where Fascism arguably worked

    Spain, perhaps

    Chile, definitely

    Was Chile under Pinochet fascist? Wasn't it a fairly standard military dictatorship, similar to the rule of the Junta in Argentina, only less incompetent.
    And more Neoliberal than corporatist Fascist
    That's a good point; Chile wasn't corporatist at all.

    There also wasn't any kind of political movement alongside Pinochet: he had no Party. On the contrary he groups like the IDU and RN supported the regime. But they weren't the regime.

    Nor did Chile have the kind of iconography associated with fascist movements.
    Yes, Pinochet was basically a Thatcherite, just one who was a military dictator rather than a Fascist.

    Hence the Lady went to tea with him in Surrey, when Jack Straw had put him under house arrest, not just to thank him for his support in the Falklands but as he was an ideological soulmate, even if she was more willing to use the ballot box than secret police to preserve her power

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/304516.stm
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,274
    edited September 16

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Has communism worked anywhere?

    I can think of two places where Fascism arguably worked

    Spain, perhaps

    Chile, definitely

    Was Chile under Pinochet fascist? Wasn't it a fairly standard military dictatorship, similar to the rule of the Junta in Argentina, only less incompetent.
    And the situation in Spain was also messy. The west worked very hard not to categorise Franco as fascist after WW2; undignified grovelling towards terrible people who might be useful isn't a novelty in diplomacy.

    Besides, there was a Spanish economic miracle, but it came after junking the actual fascists from government, replacing them with Opus Dei technocrats to run the economy (as in da Vinci Code and Ruth Kelly) and softening the regime to another fairly standard military dictatorship. Spain under Phase One Francoism was going absolutely nowhere.
    Speaking of Opus Dei and Roman Catholicism, the Duchess of Kent's funeral today at Westminster Cathedral was the first Roman Catholic funeral of a member of our royal family since the early 16th century
  • Leon said:

    Has communism worked anywhere?

    Kerala?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,247
    edited September 16
    The most delicious thing about the latest asylum boat debacle is the revelation that even if we manage to deport one migrant, they will be kept in a non secure hotel type place, completely free to come and go. So if they want they can walk out the door and go to Calais and cross the Channel again

    My family is basically turning Nazi because of this
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,274

    ...

    Leon said:

    Has communism worked anywhere?

    I can think of two places where Fascism arguably worked

    Spain, perhaps

    Chile, definitely

    Where has capitalism worked?

    Nowhere, as pure capitalism has never been attempted. It has always had a 'public' aspect - even in the USA.
    Pure capitalism as described by Adam Smith has a very strong role for Government.
    Arresting those who try to steal from the rich mainly
  • rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Has communism worked anywhere?

    I can think of two places where Fascism arguably worked

    Spain, perhaps

    Chile, definitely

    Was Chile under Pinochet fascist? Wasn't it a fairly standard military dictatorship, similar to the rule of the Junta in Argentina, only less incompetent.
    And the situation in Spain was also messy. The west worked very hard not to categorise Franco as fascist after WW2; undignified grovelling towards terrible people who might be useful isn't a novelty in diplomacy.

    Besides, there was a Spanish economic miracle, but it came after junking the actual fascists from government, replacing them with Opus Dei technocrats to run the economy (as in da Vinci Code and Ruth Kelly) and softening the regime to another fairly standard military dictatorship. Spain under Phase One Francoism was going absolutely nowhere.
    You know, she's only 57. She'd be a welcome change from Starmer.
    She's been on a bit of a journey, according to Wikipedia;

    In 2022 she joined the right-leaning think tank Policy Exchange. She replaced Anthony Ferrar as chair of Water UK in March 2023.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 7,123
    edited September 16
    Leon said:

    The most delicious thing about the latest asylum boat debacle is the revelation that even if we manage to deport one migrant, they will be kept in a non secure hotel type place, completely free to come and go. So if they want they can walk out the door and go to Calais and do it again

    Do we know if, when they come back, we get to send them to france as a "freebie", not counted in the one-in-one-out? Failure of negotation if not.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,209
    Advance UK have now teamed up with the TUV in Northern Ireland, who previously had a bit of a rollercoaster relationship with Reform UK.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,247
    carnforth said:

    Leon said:

    The most delicious thing about the latest asylum boat debacle is the revelation that even if we manage to deport one migrant, they will be kept in a non secure hotel type place, completely free to come and go. So if they want they can walk out the door and go to Calais and do it again

    Do we know if, when they come back, we get to send them to france as a "freebie", not counted in the one-in-one-out? Failure of negotation if not.
    You’d hope so. But knowing the cringeing uselessness of Starmer’s Labour government when it comes to negotiations, my guess is probably not

    Even more piquantly, the French are about to send their first batch to us
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,522
    HYUFD said:

    The Don has landed. Let the shits and giggles commence.

    Will he make a detour to Clacton from Stansted? He is the Messiah to Farage's John the Baptist there
    Well if Beer had made Don use the Stansted Express and/or Greater Anglia to get into London then a state of war would have existed between us. Thankfully more efficient transport seems to have been used.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,428

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Has communism worked anywhere?

    I can think of two places where Fascism arguably worked

    Spain, perhaps

    Chile, definitely

    Was Chile under Pinochet fascist? Wasn't it a fairly standard military dictatorship, similar to the rule of the Junta in Argentina, only less incompetent.
    And the situation in Spain was also messy. The west worked very hard not to categorise Franco as fascist after WW2; undignified grovelling towards terrible people who might be useful isn't a novelty in diplomacy.

    Besides, there was a Spanish economic miracle, but it came after junking the actual fascists from government, replacing them with Opus Dei technocrats to run the economy (as in da Vinci Code and Ruth Kelly) and softening the regime to another fairly standard military dictatorship. Spain under Phase One Francoism was going absolutely nowhere.
    You know, she's only 57. She'd be a welcome change from Starmer.
    She's been on a bit of a journey, according to Wikipedia;

    In 2022 she joined the right-leaning think tank Policy Exchange. She replaced Anthony Ferrar as chair of Water UK in March 2023.
    To be fair, Policy Exchange has worked pretty hard to get at least some contributions from Labour MPs: I know Khalid Mahmood wrote a few things for them.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,619
    edited September 16
    rcs1000 said:

    Shall I tell you what really annoys me? (Among other things)

    There are numerous people who (a) aren't good people, and (b) have been treated pretty poorly.

    But somehow, because of the mistreatment, they are elevated to the position of martyr.

    Lucy Connelly is one. She definitely didn't deserve the sentence she got (and probably didn't deserve a custodial one at all). But she is still someone who professed hersellf (at the very least) unbothered by people being burned to death. That's not a nice person.

    And then there's Kilmar Armando Ábrego García. Even if you determine that the traffic stop in Tennessee was not him being involved in people smuggling, you still need to remember that his ex-wife got a protective order against him for domestic violence. He's also probably not a very nice person.

    Finally there's Charlie Kirk. Should he have been shot? Hell no. People should be allowed to go around without fear of violence irrespective of their political views. But did he say some pretty vile things? Yeah... I think so.

    Also George Floyd, whose death managed to change the Western world
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,097

    Advance UK have now teamed up with the TUV in Northern Ireland, who previously had a bit of a rollercoaster relationship with Reform UK.

    What, apart from the personalities, is the difference between Advance and Reform?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,209
    Cookie said:

    Advance UK have now teamed up with the TUV in Northern Ireland, who previously had a bit of a rollercoaster relationship with Reform UK.

    What, apart from the personalities, is the difference between Advance and Reform?
    Advance are further to the right than Reform, which is represented in the personalities who support them (Tommy, Musk).
  • IOS 26....my eyes....my eyes....
  • isamisam Posts: 42,619
    edited September 16
    Promise made, promise broken

    Action, not just words.

    We promised we would secure the British steel industry.

    Keir Starmer’s economic deal with the US reduces tariffs on British steel to zero.


    https://x.com/uklabour/status/1920796573417558378?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    UK hopes for 0% tariff on steel exports to US dashed

    https://x.com/bbcnews/status/1968011288501461357?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 40,200
    @chrisshipitv

    Oh dear. Not such a great diplomatic start. Protectors managed to project images of Jeffrey Epstein, Donald Trump and Prince Andrew onto the outside walls of Windsor Castle.

    https://x.com/chrisshipitv/status/1968057555370103278
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,839
    Carnyx said:

    ...

    Leon said:

    Has communism worked anywhere?

    I can think of two places where Fascism arguably worked

    Spain, perhaps

    Chile, definitely

    Where has capitalism worked?

    Nowhere, as pure capitalism has never been attempted. It has always had a 'public' aspect - even in the USA.
    Pure capitalism as described by Adam Smith has a very strong role for Government.
    Indeed. Conspiracy of the merchants stuff. Incidentally I seem to recall that one then very prominent right-winger deleted some of that stuff from an edition of the Wealth of Nations to make the Kirkcaldy sage, erm, more 'libertarian'. But that was a long time ago.
    Incidentally, I PMed you, @Carnyx .
  • kjhkjh Posts: 13,161
    Leon said:

    Has communism worked anywhere?

    I can think of two places where Fascism arguably worked

    Spain, perhaps

    Chile, definitely

    Does Cuba count as a success? I don't know. Bearing in mind no Government is completely successful.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 40,200

    IOS 26....my eyes....my eyes....

    It's...
















    bad
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,428
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Has communism worked anywhere?

    I can think of two places where Fascism arguably worked

    Spain, perhaps

    Chile, definitely

    Was Chile under Pinochet fascist? Wasn't it a fairly standard military dictatorship, similar to the rule of the Junta in Argentina, only less incompetent.
    And the situation in Spain was also messy. The west worked very hard not to categorise Franco as fascist after WW2; undignified grovelling towards terrible people who might be useful isn't a novelty in diplomacy.

    Besides, there was a Spanish economic miracle, but it came after junking the actual fascists from government, replacing them with Opus Dei technocrats to run the economy (as in da Vinci Code and Ruth Kelly) and softening the regime to another fairly standard military dictatorship. Spain under Phase One Francoism was going absolutely nowhere.
    Speaking of Opus Dei and Roman Catholicism, the Duchess of Kent's funeral today at Westminster Cathedral was the first Roman Catholic funeral of a member of our royal family since the early 16th century
    I'm sorry to be really pedantic, but Mary I had a Requiem Mass at Westminster Abbey in 1558.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,274
    Cookie said:

    Advance UK have now teamed up with the TUV in Northern Ireland, who previously had a bit of a rollercoaster relationship with Reform UK.

    What, apart from the personalities, is the difference between Advance and Reform?
    Advance are even more anti immigration and even more cut spending and tax but otherwise mainly the size of Habib and Farage's egos
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,274
    edited September 16

    HYUFD said:

    The Don has landed. Let the shits and giggles commence.

    Will he make a detour to Clacton from Stansted? He is the Messiah to Farage's John the Baptist there
    Well if Beer had made Don use the Stansted Express and/or Greater Anglia to get into London then a state of war would have existed between us. Thankfully more efficient transport seems to have been used.
    They should have put Don up in Clacton Travelodge tonight, they love him there, he could have got a burger and had a sea view
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,209
    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Has communism worked anywhere?

    I can think of two places where Fascism arguably worked

    Spain, perhaps

    Chile, definitely

    Does Cuba count as a success? I don't know. Bearing in mind no Government is completely successful.
    If Chile, where 3000 were executed and tens of thousands were tortured, counts as a "definite" success, then it's hard to say Cuba hasn't "succeeded" too.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,097
    rcs1000 said:

    Shall I tell you what really annoys me? (Among other things)

    There are numerous people who (a) aren't good people, and (b) have been treated pretty poorly.

    But somehow, because of the mistreatment, they are elevated to the position of martyr.

    Lucy Connelly is one. She definitely didn't deserve the sentence she got (and probably didn't deserve a custodial one at all). But she is still someone who professed hersellf (at the very least) unbothered by people being burned to death. That's not a nice person.

    And then there's Kilmar Armando Ábrego García. Even if you determine that the traffic stop in Tennessee was not him being involved in people smuggling, you still need to remember that his ex-wife got a protective order against him for domestic violence. He's also probably not a very nice person.

    Finally there's Charlie Kirk. Should he have been shot? Hell no. People should be allowed to go around without fear of violence irrespective of their political views. But did he say some pretty vile things? Yeah... I think so.

    I know. It's almost as if the world doesn't divide neatly into goodies and baddies*, heroes and villains, saints and sinners.
    Nuances abound. All we can do is recognise this.
    Lamemtably, millions do not.

    *'baddie', now, my ten year old, giggling at the hopeless antiquity of her father, means a well presented young woman - the superlative of which is 'baddie boss'. But I'm confident most on here aren't reading in that sense.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,274
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Has communism worked anywhere?

    I can think of two places where Fascism arguably worked

    Spain, perhaps

    Chile, definitely

    Was Chile under Pinochet fascist? Wasn't it a fairly standard military dictatorship, similar to the rule of the Junta in Argentina, only less incompetent.
    And the situation in Spain was also messy. The west worked very hard not to categorise Franco as fascist after WW2; undignified grovelling towards terrible people who might be useful isn't a novelty in diplomacy.

    Besides, there was a Spanish economic miracle, but it came after junking the actual fascists from government, replacing them with Opus Dei technocrats to run the economy (as in da Vinci Code and Ruth Kelly) and softening the regime to another fairly standard military dictatorship. Spain under Phase One Francoism was going absolutely nowhere.
    Speaking of Opus Dei and Roman Catholicism, the Duchess of Kent's funeral today at Westminster Cathedral was the first Roman Catholic funeral of a member of our royal family since the early 16th century
    I'm sorry to be really pedantic, but Mary I had a Requiem Mass at Westminster Abbey in 1558.
    OK, out by 9 years and of course that was 345 years before Westminster Cathedral was even built
  • Scott_xP said:

    IOS 26....my eyes....my eyes....

    It's...

    bad
    Its Radiohead live at Glastonbury bad.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,247

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Has communism worked anywhere?

    I can think of two places where Fascism arguably worked

    Spain, perhaps

    Chile, definitely

    Does Cuba count as a success? I don't know. Bearing in mind no Government is completely successful.
    If Chile, where 3000 were executed and tens of thousands were tortured, counts as a "definite" success, then it's hard to say Cuba hasn't "succeeded" too.
    The great Pinochet managed to exterminate all the commies, meaning Chile is now the richest and most advanced economy in South America, unlike, say, Venezuela

    Yes, it’s a success
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 7,123
    Scott_xP said:

    IOS 26....my eyes....my eyes....

    It's...
















    bad
    My phone updated itself to 18.7 this evening. Am I behind the times?
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 7,123
    carnforth said:

    Scott_xP said:

    IOS 26....my eyes....my eyes....

    It's...
















    bad
    My phone updated itself to 18.7 this evening. Am I behind the times?
    Nevermind. Found it. Wish me luck.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,522
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The Don has landed. Let the shits and giggles commence.

    Will he make a detour to Clacton from Stansted? He is the Messiah to Farage's John the Baptist there
    Well if Beer had made Don use the Stansted Express and/or Greater Anglia to get into London then a state of war would have existed between us. Thankfully more efficient transport seems to have been used.
    They should have put Don up in Clacton Travelodge tonight, they love him there, he could have got a burger and had a sea view
    I’m sure Sheer Drama could advise on suitable Travel Lodges.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,247
    Interestingly, the only country in South America that rivals Chile for wealth and stability is Uruguay. And Uruguay also went through a brutal fascist phase, killing all the commies

    So maybe we should quit our colonialist sneering and admit that the new world has something to teach us
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,097
    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    viewcode said:

    rcs1000 said:

    And I think the 'issue' is that Communism is seen mostly as a set of economic beliefs...

    Well, yes. But those economic beliefs govern what you can own, how you are medicated, surgeried, fed, watered, housed and employed, how your children are schooled, and specifically prevents you from trying something better on your own initiative. It sounds good but it's stupid at best and murderous at worst.
    Indeed: it's why communism is doomed to fail.

    And also - of course - why little experiments at communism are perfectly allowable within capitalist systems. If you want to join a communist kibbutz, you could.
    Communism in its original form is the ideal economic system for the context in which humans evolved: small kinship groups of hunter gatherers. Any other system in that situation tends to lead to conflict and social breakdown. Communism doesn’t however work in any other economic setting, not even subsistence cultivation or livestock grazing.

    Perhaps this is why many are instinctively drawn to the ideal of communism. It represents some deep evolutionary vestige in the human brain.
    But Marxist theory is predicated on an, and requires an industrial society. Lenin and Stalin* starved millions of agricultural peasants to develop one (built by Americans) so that they could have communism.

    IOW, it was bollocks from the very start.

    (And what China has now isn't communism in any sense, apart from the label they still insist upon.)

    *Trotsky was more of your straightforward mass murderer.
    What's your take on Castro?
    Also a murderer, wasn't he? Anf mass-imprisoner? Also impoverished Cuba. I may be way off beam here, but my understanding is that Cuba and Puerto Rico were roughly equal in 1958. Not now. And you never got people risking death to flee Pherto Rico.

    He may have looked good on a t-shirt but he the oboy reason he isn't considered one of tge twentietg centiry's greatest villains is that there was so much competition.
    Lots of debits for sure. But it's more of a mixed picture than many other communist horror shows, I'd say. Certain things improved, at least for a while. There's a good BBC iplayer doc on him that I watched recently.
    But things improved in the Soviet Union too. The question is, what would have happened in tge counterfactual?

    Happily for political economists, the world has given us exactly three counterfactuals: pairs of two societies which started off from roughly the same place, but one went down tge communist path and the other did not: Cuba and Puerto Rico from 1959, North and South Korea after the Korean war, West and East Germany after WW2. I think on that basis it's hard to argue anything other than that communism was awful - both for the freedom of the people and for their material well being.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 13,161
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Has communism worked anywhere?

    I can think of two places where Fascism arguably worked

    Spain, perhaps

    Chile, definitely

    Does Cuba count as a success? I don't know. Bearing in mind no Government is completely successful.
    If Chile, where 3000 were executed and tens of thousands were tortured, counts as a "definite" success, then it's hard to say Cuba hasn't "succeeded" too.
    The great Pinochet managed to exterminate all the commies, meaning Chile is now the richest and most advanced economy in South America, unlike, say, Venezuela

    Yes, it’s a success
    How about Portugal?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,274
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Has communism worked anywhere?

    I can think of two places where Fascism arguably worked

    Spain, perhaps

    Chile, definitely

    Does Cuba count as a success? I don't know. Bearing in mind no Government is completely successful.
    If Chile, where 3000 were executed and tens of thousands were tortured, counts as a "definite" success, then it's hard to say Cuba hasn't "succeeded" too.
    The great Pinochet managed to exterminate all the commies, meaning Chile is now the richest and most advanced economy in South America, unlike, say, Venezuela

    Yes, it’s a success
    Michael Palin just started an interesting series on Venezuela on C5 tonight
  • glwglw Posts: 10,516

    Scott_xP said:

    IOS 26....my eyes....my eyes....

    It's...

    bad
    Its Radiohead live at Glastonbury bad.
    It's so bad that I was actually looking at Windows 11 earlier on my laptop and thinking this is more coherent and legible than the crap that Apple has just shipped. I genuinely think my phones, iPad, and Mac are all worse off today thanks to Apple's vibe coding or whatever has lead to this.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,478
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Has communism worked anywhere?

    I can think of two places where Fascism arguably worked

    Spain, perhaps

    Chile, definitely

    Does Cuba count as a success? I don't know. Bearing in mind no Government is completely successful.
    If Chile, where 3000 were executed and tens of thousands were tortured, counts as a "definite" success, then it's hard to say Cuba hasn't "succeeded" too.
    The great Pinochet managed to exterminate all the commies, meaning Chile is now the richest and most advanced economy in South America, unlike, say, Venezuela

    Yes, it’s a success
    Michael Palin just started an interesting series on Venezuela on C5 tonight
    I heard him talking about it on the radio a few days ago. One of the few places he hadn't been to.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,666

    kinabalu said:

    IanB2 said:

    KnightOut said:

    Foxy said:


    I dont think that we have true fascists in the UK. There are those with some sympathy for it, but not the full Monty.

    Real fascism requires paramilitary uniforms, a cult of leadership, milotarism and advocating political violence against internal and external enemies. A bunch of coked up fifty-somethings chucking beer cans at the police is just robbery, not fascism.


    And let's not forget that Fascism is only now considered 'right wing' because of Soviet post-war revisionism.

    Contemporaneous accounts of the 1930s and 1940s used a lot of terms to describe the Hitler and Mussolini regimes. 'Totalitarian', 'Despotic', plain old 'Evil'. You might've got a 'hardline Nationalist' in there when referring to Moseley.

    But these movements weren't really presented as 'right wing' until after WWII, when the 'victorious' Soviets wanted to differentiate their own brand of wrongheaded Authoritarianism and state-sanctioned death cultury, as if they were polar opposites, when of course they weren't.

    Horseshoe theory - which it didn't take long for most to twig - gets it semi-correct, but still allows the Octogenarian Strawman to remain standing.

    'Far Right' *should* mean extreme Libertarianism/anarcho-capitalism. If being on the right is being pro-individual, small state, limited government then being far-right should mean being strongly in favour of such things.

    I'd like to see a movement to Reclaim the term.
    That doesn’t really make sense, though. That the Conservatives are a right of centre party isn’t in dispute. That they’ve become more right wing since they abandoned their pragmatism for Brexit, under Johnson and Truss, and having toyed with Patel, Braverman and Jenrick also isn’t in dispute. That Reform represents a further step to the right is hard to contest, that Trump is a step further appears clear, and if you project forward it isn’t that long before you arrive at a Mussolini type dictatorship.
    It doesn't make sense because it's radical right bollocks.
    I'd be interested to know what your typical small state anarcho-capitalist libertarian thinks about policing and border control.
    A friend who's a small state anarcho-capitalist libertarian thinks it's really important we secure the borders and keep out the Muslims.
    Not much of a libertarian, then. Or anarchist. Nor small state. Nor capitalist.
    But apart from that...
    You've a friend who likes to think of them self as...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 40,200
    glw said:

    Scott_xP said:

    IOS 26....my eyes....my eyes....

    It's...

    bad
    Its Radiohead live at Glastonbury bad.
    It's so bad that I was actually looking at Windows 11 earlier on my laptop and thinking this is more coherent and legible than the crap that Apple has just shipped. I genuinely think my phones, iPad, and Mac are all worse off today thanks to Apple's vibe coding or whatever has lead to this.
    Microsoft tried this in Windows Vista, which tells you just how popular it was...
  • AnthonyTAnthonyT Posts: 165
    carnforth said:

    "The 71-year-old audience member who was arrested at Charlie Kirk’s UVU event says he told cops he shot Kirk to distract police so the real shooter could escape.

    “I shot him, now shoot me,” George Zinn allegedly said immediately after Kirk was shot.

    While speaking to investigators, Zinn said he was trying to “draw attention from the real shooter.”

    Zinn was charged with obstruction of justice, a second-degree felony."

    According to reports, he has also been charged with having child porn found on his phone.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,666
    isam said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Shall I tell you what really annoys me? (Among other things)

    There are numerous people who (a) aren't good people, and (b) have been treated pretty poorly.

    But somehow, because of the mistreatment, they are elevated to the position of martyr.

    Lucy Connelly is one. She definitely didn't deserve the sentence she got (and probably didn't deserve a custodial one at all). But she is still someone who professed hersellf (at the very least) unbothered by people being burned to death. That's not a nice person.

    And then there's Kilmar Armando Ábrego García. Even if you determine that the traffic stop in Tennessee was not him being involved in people smuggling, you still need to remember that his ex-wife got a protective order against him for domestic violence. He's also probably not a very nice person.

    Finally there's Charlie Kirk. Should he have been shot? Hell no. People should be allowed to go around without fear of violence irrespective of their political views. But did he say some pretty vile things? Yeah... I think so.

    Also George Floyd, whose death managed to change the Western world
    I see there are proposals for a unifying National Holiday on October 14.
    The birthday of both Kirk and Floyd.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,568
    Leon said:

    kjh said:

    Leon said:

    Has communism worked anywhere?

    I can think of two places where Fascism arguably worked

    Spain, perhaps

    Chile, definitely

    Does Cuba count as a success? I don't know. Bearing in mind no Government is completely successful.
    If Chile, where 3000 were executed and tens of thousands were tortured, counts as a "definite" success, then it's hard to say Cuba hasn't "succeeded" too.
    The great Pinochet managed to exterminate all the commies, meaning Chile is now the richest and most advanced economy in South America, unlike, say, Venezuela

    Yes, it’s a success
    https://datacommons.org/place/country/CHL?utm_medium=explore&mprop=amount&popt=EconomicActivity&cpv=activitySource,GrossDomesticProduction&hl=en

    5th after Colombia, Venezuela, Argentina and Brazil, in reverse order. The large rise in economic growth is post-2000.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,555
    edited September 16
    glw said:

    Scott_xP said:

    IOS 26....my eyes....my eyes....

    It's...

    bad
    Its Radiohead live at Glastonbury bad.
    It's so bad that I was actually looking at Windows 11 earlier on my laptop and thinking this is more coherent and legible than the crap that Apple has just shipped. I genuinely think my phones, iPad, and Mac are all worse off today thanks to Apple's vibe coding or whatever has lead to this.
    Sorry I can't see what you wrote I have been blinded by looking at my mac....

    How many meeting about meeting about meetings did they have in the doughnut where it was collectively agreed yes this is a definite improvement to the UI/UX on what we have!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,666
    Leon said:

    Interestingly, the only country in South America that rivals Chile for wealth and stability is Uruguay. And Uruguay also went through a brutal fascist phase, killing all the commies

    So maybe we should quit our colonialist sneering and admit that the new world has something to teach us

    How stable was Chile before Pinochet?
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