Skip to content

Bridget Phillipson needs to channel her inner David Cameron – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,685
edited September 16 in General
Bridget Phillipson needs to channel her inner David Cameron – politicalbetting.com

We’ve been here before, a leadership election with a clear favourite going into conference season then we had the speech of a lifetime which upended the leadership contest, I am of course referring to the 2005 Tory leadership election where David Cameron went from rank outsider to the longest serving Tory leader this millennium.

Read the full story here

«134567

Comments

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,264
    First
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,224
    FTP...

    Eabhal said:

    boulay said:

    Sir David Davis is uniting the Commons against Mandelson

    I wonder what further measures they can take against Mandelson. Expulsion from the Lords, a prison sentence, execution even?
    Silly comment

    He should be removed from Labour and the Lords
    For what?
    Writing yum yum in a birthday card?

    This is hysteria.
    Maybe if you listen to the house debate you would see mps anger and more importantly the Epstein victims family tearful interviews about Mandelson

    By the sounds of it, the “debate” is less of a debate than a tawdry display of schmaltz-stirring.
    What is tawdy is Mandelson representing our country

    An appointment widely considered very savvy politics, and which seems to have actually paid off for the UK, at least until last week.

    I dislike Mandelson as much as the next man, but his excessive loyalty to Epstein is the least of his offences, and Britain is in a geopolitical crisis.
    Tell that to the Epstein's family victims who condemned him in tears this weekend
    In your excitability, your posts give the impression that Mandelson should be held responsible for the abuse that Epstein's victims suffered. I don't think anybody is accusing Mandelson of that. If Mandelson had never existed, I don't imagine it would have made any difference to Epstein's victims.

    Mandelson was a poor appointment by Starmer, especially with the benefit of hindsight. But that's about all there is to it.
    There is nothing excitable about the victims families tears even if you find this difficult

    Indeed Ed Davey is speaking on this now
    Unfortunately discussing the victims’ families tears does not serve to improve the country - the Mandelson appointment was an error, the PM probably knows and accepts this and is running out of rope, everyone has had their pound of flesh (however much it is fun to jab at Starmer on here for it).

    This debate however shows, in my mind, how unserious our political class has got. There will inevitably be shroud waving and MPs lining up to emote, do doubt we will have tearful personal stories from MPs as has become a habit and it won’t change a damn thing in the country or the world but will make MPs feel worthy.

    As TSE pointed out earlier, this time would be better used on matters such as drone incursions into Poland, sending RAF planes and other kit to aid our ally. Or debating the new google data centre’s future energy needs in relation to closing off North Sea drilling, frankly anything that MPs can achieve to make the country run better and grow.

    This however is easy vanity, Mandelson has paid the price, Starmer is paying a price, others in his team will pay a price and yet nothing said today will ensure that the majority of those responsible with Epstein, namely a lot of high profile Americans, will pay a price as it’s not in the remit of Parliament.
    Yes. My point, eloquently expanded.
    I agree, but everyone seemed happy to pile in on partygate, which was equally trivial.
    Partygate seems neither comparable or trivial. We've recently had more revelations about Johnson holding gatherings in breach of the rules as well.
    Partygate was certainly not trivial on the doorstep. When I was canvassing in the West Country one old boy burst into tears when the topic came up.
    And I am sure that you can find many similarly aghast at Mandelson - victims of childhood sexual abuse for instance. The point upthread is that there are serious issues affecting the country yet parliament is wasting three hours on this. I felt the same about partygate.
    Partygate was critically important because if we have another national emergency we need people to trust the establishment when asked to make significant personal sacrifices - from going to war or abandoning homes ahead of a flood, or rationing food.

    The COVID rules may have been silly*, but that was in the main an honest misjudgment. That will happen again if the big flood doesn't actually materialise, or a harvest does eventually come in. But we expect our leaders to make those decisions to the best of their ability and to abide by they own instructions.

    *no indoor mixing was one of the more sensible ones IMO, particularly at the time the parties
    Of course one of the silliest things was that you could work in the office all day but as soon as work stopped you could no longer mix. Which was mad. If you weren't infected between 9 and 5, 5-6 probably wasn't going to do it.

    I know I am probably in a minority of one, but I genuinely think Johnson tried his best. He was not at the hedonistic parties that have come to represent partygate to the public, but I suspect a lot of people think he was.
    He wasn't, but we've recently discovered that there were a bunch of additional social engagements Johnson held in breach of the rules.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,113

    First

    Class like Mandelson's arrival to Little St James.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,264
    Is speaking without notes a thing still?
  • Is speaking without notes a thing still?

    I do it all the time.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,264

    FTP...

    Eabhal said:

    boulay said:

    Sir David Davis is uniting the Commons against Mandelson

    I wonder what further measures they can take against Mandelson. Expulsion from the Lords, a prison sentence, execution even?
    Silly comment

    He should be removed from Labour and the Lords
    For what?
    Writing yum yum in a birthday card?

    This is hysteria.
    Maybe if you listen to the house debate you would see mps anger and more importantly the Epstein victims family tearful interviews about Mandelson

    By the sounds of it, the “debate” is less of a debate than a tawdry display of schmaltz-stirring.
    What is tawdy is Mandelson representing our country

    An appointment widely considered very savvy politics, and which seems to have actually paid off for the UK, at least until last week.

    I dislike Mandelson as much as the next man, but his excessive loyalty to Epstein is the least of his offences, and Britain is in a geopolitical crisis.
    Tell that to the Epstein's family victims who condemned him in tears this weekend
    In your excitability, your posts give the impression that Mandelson should be held responsible for the abuse that Epstein's victims suffered. I don't think anybody is accusing Mandelson of that. If Mandelson had never existed, I don't imagine it would have made any difference to Epstein's victims.

    Mandelson was a poor appointment by Starmer, especially with the benefit of hindsight. But that's about all there is to it.
    There is nothing excitable about the victims families tears even if you find this difficult

    Indeed Ed Davey is speaking on this now
    Unfortunately discussing the victims’ families tears does not serve to improve the country - the Mandelson appointment was an error, the PM probably knows and accepts this and is running out of rope, everyone has had their pound of flesh (however much it is fun to jab at Starmer on here for it).

    This debate however shows, in my mind, how unserious our political class has got. There will inevitably be shroud waving and MPs lining up to emote, do doubt we will have tearful personal stories from MPs as has become a habit and it won’t change a damn thing in the country or the world but will make MPs feel worthy.

    As TSE pointed out earlier, this time would be better used on matters such as drone incursions into Poland, sending RAF planes and other kit to aid our ally. Or debating the new google data centre’s future energy needs in relation to closing off North Sea drilling, frankly anything that MPs can achieve to make the country run better and grow.

    This however is easy vanity, Mandelson has paid the price, Starmer is paying a price, others in his team will pay a price and yet nothing said today will ensure that the majority of those responsible with Epstein, namely a lot of high profile Americans, will pay a price as it’s not in the remit of Parliament.
    Yes. My point, eloquently expanded.
    I agree, but everyone seemed happy to pile in on partygate, which was equally trivial.
    Partygate seems neither comparable or trivial. We've recently had more revelations about Johnson holding gatherings in breach of the rules as well.
    Partygate was certainly not trivial on the doorstep. When I was canvassing in the West Country one old boy burst into tears when the topic came up.
    And I am sure that you can find many similarly aghast at Mandelson - victims of childhood sexual abuse for instance. The point upthread is that there are serious issues affecting the country yet parliament is wasting three hours on this. I felt the same about partygate.
    Partygate was critically important because if we have another national emergency we need people to trust the establishment when asked to make significant personal sacrifices - from going to war or abandoning homes ahead of a flood, or rationing food.

    The COVID rules may have been silly*, but that was in the main an honest misjudgment. That will happen again if the big flood doesn't actually materialise, or a harvest does eventually come in. But we expect our leaders to make those decisions to the best of their ability and to abide by they own instructions.

    *no indoor mixing was one of the more sensible ones IMO, particularly at the time the parties
    Of course one of the silliest things was that you could work in the office all day but as soon as work stopped you could no longer mix. Which was mad. If you weren't infected between 9 and 5, 5-6 probably wasn't going to do it.

    I know I am probably in a minority of one, but I genuinely think Johnson tried his best. He was not at the hedonistic parties that have come to represent partygate to the public, but I suspect a lot of people think he was.
    He wasn't, but we've recently discovered that there were a bunch of additional social engagements Johnson held in breach of the rules.
    Have we? Not seen that.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,672
    Think everyone can agree Mandelson isn't a particularly pleasant person. Especially to underlings.
    But what other kind of person would be appropriate for dealing with the gang of thieves, liars and twats in power in Washington?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,250
    edited September 16
    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,264

    Is speaking without notes a thing still?

    I do it all the time.
    Well me too, but I was thinking of political speeches.
  • Is speaking without notes a thing still?

    I rocked up to the last seat selection hustings I went to completely without notes. Knew my opening and closing comments verbatim and my key points. Completely flummoxed one of the other candidates who had reams of notes and even then kept forgetting her point.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,936
    edited September 16
    Pam Bondi is having a bad day, doubling-down on her “hate speech” comments from last night and getting roasted by her own side below the line.

    https://x.com/agpambondi/status/1967913066554630181

    Charlie says there’s no such thing as hate speech.

    (Note to Mr Eagles, that’s how one does a subtle and topical ‘90s pop music reference).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,171

    Is speaking without notes a thing still?

    I do it all the time.
    You're tuneless ?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,264

    Is speaking without notes a thing still?

    I rocked up to the last seat selection hustings I went to completely without notes. Knew my opening and closing comments verbatim and my key points. Completely flummoxed one of the other candidates who had reams of notes and even then kept forgetting her point.
    I think its about knowing your brief. I speak about my research and the science of chillies at festivals and I don't need notes to speak for 30-45 minutes. I can see that if you are giving a keynote speech at conference it is probably going to be carefully scripted but a great communicator ought to be able to do it from memory, finding the words as they go.

    Does it matter? Who knows. I don't think it was the only thing Cameron had going for him.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,092
    dixiedean said:

    Think everyone can agree Mandelson isn't a particularly pleasant person. Especially to underlings.
    But what other kind of person would be appropriate for dealing with the gang of thieves, liars and twats in power in Washington?

    Well, an experienced career diplomat would have been a good start.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,668
    edited September 16
    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Peter Hitchens was a student Trotskyist, too. And many other 1980's conservatives.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,264

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Peter Hitchens was a student Trotskyist, too. And many other 1980's conservatives.
    Of course the millions who died under Stalin used their last breath to mutter "At least I'm dying for a noble cause - how bad would it be to be killed by a Nazi?"
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,171
    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Is that so ?
    It acknowledges it, but does it condone ?
    .. “When I first got involved in anti-fascism – this was late 80s – it was all about the street. I’m not saying it was right, but that’s how it was. You didn’t have cameras.” So, wait, he doesn’t mean handing out leaflets in the street? “No, you would have groups of Nazis and groups of anti-fascists, and they would battle it out, down sidestreets, and sometimes it got quite violent. I mean, look at me, I’m not built for that. I never got involved in that. But that was the world it was.”..
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,359
    Have we done this?


  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,898
    On topic: Wot - she needs to call and lose a Referendum on Europe???
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,320

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Peter Hitchens was a student Trotskyist, too. And many other 1980's conservatives.
    I remember when I started school and having to go into my prefects’ rooms so I could be used as a toast rack for their crumpets (not really) I was amazed how most of them had giant posters of Lenin or over huge red Soviet posters. I’m not sure if any of them apart from one had any love for actual Leninism or Trotskyism but it was a thing people, especially from the privileged end of the world, do when they are growing up.

    Posters of Thatcher and Tebbit weren’t going to get the girls and emoting at a disco about the benefits of fiscal dryness lose out to the guy who wants to throw Molotov cocktails at “the man” regardless of the fact that the man who employs “the man” is our wannabe revolutionary’s father.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,171

    Is speaking without notes a thing still?

    I rocked up to the last seat selection hustings I went to completely without notes. Knew my opening and closing comments verbatim and my key points. Completely flummoxed one of the other candidates who had reams of notes and even then kept forgetting her point.
    I think it's as much the ability to stand up in front of a crowd, without the adrenaline rendering you temporarily unable to process thoughts.
    Some can; some can't.

    People who can talk fluently for half an hour at a time can be reduced to embarrassed muttering.

    Cameron's enormous (and not entirely justified) self confidence stood him in good stead. Ditto Boris.
    But it's hardly a quality which on its own separates a good PM from a duff one.
  • KEEP CALMER
    AND
    OUST STARMER!
  • Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Peter Hitchens was a student Trotskyist, too. And many other 1980's conservatives.
    Of course the millions who died under Stalin used their last breath to mutter "At least I'm dying for a noble cause - how bad would it be to be killed by a Nazi?"
    "Here, the men's only choice is between German bullets and ours. But there's another way. The way of courage. The way of love of the Motherland. We must publish the army newspaper again. We must tell magnificent stories, stories that extol sacrifice, bravery. We must make them believe in the victory. We must give them hope, pride, a desire to fight. Yes, we need to make examples. But examples to *follow*. What we need... are heroes!"
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,495
    Just put on a random home video from 1995 and it shows a wind turbine farm somewhere in either Devon or Cornwall. Must have been one of the first ones to be set up.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,264
    Andy_JS said:

    Just put on a random home video from 1995 and it shows a wind turbine farm somewhere in either Devon or Cornwall. Must have been one of the first ones to be set up.

    I used to go to Ilfracombe in North Devon as a young teenager and there used to be a wind turbine between Lee and Ilfracombe - would have been the mid eighties.
  • Is speaking without notes a thing still?

    I do it all the time.
    £50 notes? ;)
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,100
    Nigelb said:

    KEEP CALMER
    AND
    OUST STARMER!

    Don't fidget
    And vote Bridget ?
    Have a good old Howl
    And vote Powell.

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 34,261
    Nigelb said:

    Is speaking without notes a thing still?

    I rocked up to the last seat selection hustings I went to completely without notes. Knew my opening and closing comments verbatim and my key points. Completely flummoxed one of the other candidates who had reams of notes and even then kept forgetting her point.
    I think it's as much the ability to stand up in front of a crowd, without the adrenaline rendering you temporarily unable to process thoughts.
    Some can; some can't.

    People who can talk fluently for half an hour at a time can be reduced to embarrassed muttering.

    Cameron's enormous (and not entirely justified) self confidence stood him in good stead. Ditto Boris.
    But it's hardly a quality which on its own separates a good PM from a duff one.
    Like this chap? Allegedly one of Britain's great post war orators.

    https://youtu.be/8zHURhs0DbM?si=meYGwwUJpkhmkVDh
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,273
    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    KEEP CALMER
    AND
    OUST STARMER!

    Don't fidget
    And vote Bridget ?
    Have a good old Howl
    And vote Powell.

    Keep things juicy
    Give it to Lucy
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,894
    Barnesian said:

    Have we done this?


    Kinda love it :D
  • Nigelb said:

    Is speaking without notes a thing still?

    I rocked up to the last seat selection hustings I went to completely without notes. Knew my opening and closing comments verbatim and my key points. Completely flummoxed one of the other candidates who had reams of notes and even then kept forgetting her point.
    I think it's as much the ability to stand up in front of a crowd, without the adrenaline rendering you temporarily unable to process thoughts.
    Some can; some can't.

    People who can talk fluently for half an hour at a time can be reduced to embarrassed muttering.

    Cameron's enormous (and not entirely justified) self confidence stood him in good stead. Ditto Boris.
    But it's hardly a quality which on its own separates a good PM from a duff one.
    Plenty of normal people do it. Teachers and vicars for a start.

    It's not magic- it just needs you to accept the feedback you get from doing it lots.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,495
    "Migrant deportations fail for second day over legal challenges
    The first removal flights to France under the government’s returns deal have been delayed"

    https://www.thetimes.com
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,854
    edited September 16

    Andy_JS said:

    Just put on a random home video from 1995 and it shows a wind turbine farm somewhere in either Devon or Cornwall. Must have been one of the first ones to be set up.

    I used to go to Ilfracombe in North Devon as a young teenager and there used to be a wind turbine between Lee and Ilfracombe - would have been the mid eighties.
    The world's first electricity generating wind turbine (for charging batteries):

    When and where? Without looking it up.

  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,912
    Nigelb said:

    Is speaking without notes a thing still?

    I rocked up to the last seat selection hustings I went to completely without notes. Knew my opening and closing comments verbatim and my key points. Completely flummoxed one of the other candidates who had reams of notes and even then kept forgetting her point.
    I think it's as much the ability to stand up in front of a crowd, without the adrenaline rendering you temporarily unable to process thoughts.
    Some can; some can't.

    People who can talk fluently for half an hour at a time can be reduced to embarrassed muttering.

    Cameron's enormous (and not entirely justified) self confidence stood him in good stead. Ditto Boris.
    But it's hardly a quality which on its own separates a good PM from a duff one.
    Yes, the ability to withstand the extreme psychological pressure that comes from any kind of public performance is a valuable talent. I'm a naturally shy person despite also being a bit of a showoff and have somewhat tamed the fear of public speaking or performing to the extent that I can sing and act in front of hundreds of people and can speak in front of an audience on topics where I have some knowledge or expertise. But I always feel vulnerable to that moment when your mind goes completely blank.
    I watched Taylor Swift's Eras tour film recently and I was utterly in awe of her ability to perform for 3.5 hours and apparently never forget a word, sing a bum note (ok, she was very slightly flat a couple of times) or miss a dance step. I don't really understand how anyone could have performed that concert, let alone in front of tens of thousands of people. This is before we even consider the physical stamina involved. It's mind blowing.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,936
    The Polish have no intention of reopening their rail border with Belarus, and the Chinese are furious about it.

    It was originally to be closed for a few days because of airspace incursions and military exercises in the area.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1967898925295194386

    Good good, the more economic sanctions of those helping Russia, the better.

    Well timed for Mr Trump’s visit to Europe as well.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,821

    Andy_JS said:

    Just put on a random home video from 1995 and it shows a wind turbine farm somewhere in either Devon or Cornwall. Must have been one of the first ones to be set up.

    I used to go to Ilfracombe in North Devon as a young teenager and there used to be a wind turbine between Lee and Ilfracombe - would have been the mid eighties.
    On the mention of "Ilfracombe" one is contractually obliged to mention William Shatner's description of it being "laced with prostitution"
  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,250
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Is that so ?
    It acknowledges it, but does it condone ?
    .. “When I first got involved in anti-fascism – this was late 80s – it was all about the street. I’m not saying it was right, but that’s how it was. You didn’t have cameras.” So, wait, he doesn’t mean handing out leaflets in the street? “No, you would have groups of Nazis and groups of anti-fascists, and they would battle it out, down sidestreets, and sometimes it got quite violent. I mean, look at me, I’m not built for that. I never got involved in that. But that was the world it was.”..
    Oh give over. What if someone said “yes I was in the national front as a teenager” - would she simply have passed by that without mention and interrogation? Of course not. And the NF didn’t want to overthrow liberal capitalism - unlike the Trots

    It’s fuxking ludicrous. This guy is held up an an exemplary opponent of right wing political violence yet it turns out he was a revolutionary activist in his youth, desiring to end parliamentary democracy, and she doesn’t even note that this is somewhat jarring
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,854
    edited September 16

    Nigelb said:

    Is speaking without notes a thing still?

    I rocked up to the last seat selection hustings I went to completely without notes. Knew my opening and closing comments verbatim and my key points. Completely flummoxed one of the other candidates who had reams of notes and even then kept forgetting her point.
    I think it's as much the ability to stand up in front of a crowd, without the adrenaline rendering you temporarily unable to process thoughts.
    Some can; some can't.

    People who can talk fluently for half an hour at a time can be reduced to embarrassed muttering.

    Cameron's enormous (and not entirely justified) self confidence stood him in good stead. Ditto Boris.
    But it's hardly a quality which on its own separates a good PM from a duff one.
    Plenty of normal people do it. Teachers and vicars for a start.

    It's not magic- it just needs you to accept the feedback you get from doing it lots.
    Planning Committees are good training. 3 minutes - stand up, tell them, speak up, tell them in detail, wrap up, tell them, then shut up.

    * Top Tip. If you are the applicant and think it is safe, then you can opt not to speak, and the objectors can't either. It really annoys them !!!
  • The Queen is unable to attend the Duchess of Kent's funeral due to illness

    I wouldn't critise her if it prevented her being with Trump tomorrow
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,789

    Is speaking without notes a thing still?

    I rocked up to the last seat selection hustings I went to completely without notes. Knew my opening and closing comments verbatim and my key points. Completely flummoxed one of the other candidates who had reams of notes and even then kept forgetting her point.
    It's much better if you can. I gave my maiden speech in Parliament entirely from notes, as I was nervous. It was a bit rubbish, whereas later speeches without notes were better (though I'll never sway the millions).
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,854

    Barnesian said:

    Have we done this?


    Kinda love it :D
    The California Dreaming strategy.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,894

    The Queen is unable to attend the Duchess of Kent's funeral due to illness

    I wouldn't critise her if it prevented her being with Trump tomorrow

    I thought she died a few years ago
  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,250
    I have just bought a resòlza pattadese - the archetypal Sardinian folding knife - handmade in the Supramonte mountains

    It’s nearly identical to the knife my good friend the murderer-turner-shepherd Jonata XXXXX used to cut me a tranche of kidgoat-stomach-sac-cheese yesterday, after using it to slice me a piece of maggot cheese the day before

  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,224

    FTP...

    Eabhal said:

    boulay said:

    Sir David Davis is uniting the Commons against Mandelson

    I wonder what further measures they can take against Mandelson. Expulsion from the Lords, a prison sentence, execution even?
    Silly comment

    He should be removed from Labour and the Lords
    For what?
    Writing yum yum in a birthday card?

    This is hysteria.
    Maybe if you listen to the house debate you would see mps anger and more importantly the Epstein victims family tearful interviews about Mandelson

    By the sounds of it, the “debate” is less of a debate than a tawdry display of schmaltz-stirring.
    What is tawdy is Mandelson representing our country

    An appointment widely considered very savvy politics, and which seems to have actually paid off for the UK, at least until last week.

    I dislike Mandelson as much as the next man, but his excessive loyalty to Epstein is the least of his offences, and Britain is in a geopolitical crisis.
    Tell that to the Epstein's family victims who condemned him in tears this weekend
    In your excitability, your posts give the impression that Mandelson should be held responsible for the abuse that Epstein's victims suffered. I don't think anybody is accusing Mandelson of that. If Mandelson had never existed, I don't imagine it would have made any difference to Epstein's victims.

    Mandelson was a poor appointment by Starmer, especially with the benefit of hindsight. But that's about all there is to it.
    There is nothing excitable about the victims families tears even if you find this difficult

    Indeed Ed Davey is speaking on this now
    Unfortunately discussing the victims’ families tears does not serve to improve the country - the Mandelson appointment was an error, the PM probably knows and accepts this and is running out of rope, everyone has had their pound of flesh (however much it is fun to jab at Starmer on here for it).

    This debate however shows, in my mind, how unserious our political class has got. There will inevitably be shroud waving and MPs lining up to emote, do doubt we will have tearful personal stories from MPs as has become a habit and it won’t change a damn thing in the country or the world but will make MPs feel worthy.

    As TSE pointed out earlier, this time would be better used on matters such as drone incursions into Poland, sending RAF planes and other kit to aid our ally. Or debating the new google data centre’s future energy needs in relation to closing off North Sea drilling, frankly anything that MPs can achieve to make the country run better and grow.

    This however is easy vanity, Mandelson has paid the price, Starmer is paying a price, others in his team will pay a price and yet nothing said today will ensure that the majority of those responsible with Epstein, namely a lot of high profile Americans, will pay a price as it’s not in the remit of Parliament.
    Yes. My point, eloquently expanded.
    I agree, but everyone seemed happy to pile in on partygate, which was equally trivial.
    Partygate seems neither comparable or trivial. We've recently had more revelations about Johnson holding gatherings in breach of the rules as well.
    Partygate was certainly not trivial on the doorstep. When I was canvassing in the West Country one old boy burst into tears when the topic came up.
    And I am sure that you can find many similarly aghast at Mandelson - victims of childhood sexual abuse for instance. The point upthread is that there are serious issues affecting the country yet parliament is wasting three hours on this. I felt the same about partygate.
    Partygate was critically important because if we have another national emergency we need people to trust the establishment when asked to make significant personal sacrifices - from going to war or abandoning homes ahead of a flood, or rationing food.

    The COVID rules may have been silly*, but that was in the main an honest misjudgment. That will happen again if the big flood doesn't actually materialise, or a harvest does eventually come in. But we expect our leaders to make those decisions to the best of their ability and to abide by they own instructions.

    *no indoor mixing was one of the more sensible ones IMO, particularly at the time the parties
    Of course one of the silliest things was that you could work in the office all day but as soon as work stopped you could no longer mix. Which was mad. If you weren't infected between 9 and 5, 5-6 probably wasn't going to do it.

    I know I am probably in a minority of one, but I genuinely think Johnson tried his best. He was not at the hedonistic parties that have come to represent partygate to the public, but I suspect a lot of people think he was.
    He wasn't, but we've recently discovered that there were a bunch of additional social engagements Johnson held in breach of the rules.
    Have we? Not seen that.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/sep/08/boris-johnson-had-dinner-in-lockdown-with-peer-funding-flat-refit-files-suggest
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,821

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Peter Hitchens was a student Trotskyist, too. And many other 1980's conservatives.
    Of course the millions who died under Stalin used their last breath to mutter "At least I'm dying for a noble cause - how bad would it be to be killed by a Nazi?"
    "Here, the men's only choice is between German bullets and ours. But there's another way. The way of courage. The way of love of the Motherland. We must publish the army newspaper again. We must tell magnificent stories, stories that extol sacrifice, bravery. We must make them believe in the victory. We must give them hope, pride, a desire to fight. Yes, we need to make examples. But examples to *follow*. What we need... are heroes!"
    I got that reference without looking it up. Am smug now. :)
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,273
    Leon said:

    I have just bought a resòlza pattadese - the archetypal Sardinian folding knife - handmade in the Supramonte mountains

    It’s nearly identical to the knife my good friend the murderer-turner-shepherd Jonata XXXXX used to cut me a tranche of kidgoat-stomach-sac-cheese yesterday, after using it to slice me a piece of maggot cheese the day before

    Reform voters for gross cheese is an underrepresented demographic
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,100
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Is that so ?
    It acknowledges it, but does it condone ?
    .. “When I first got involved in anti-fascism – this was late 80s – it was all about the street. I’m not saying it was right, but that’s how it was. You didn’t have cameras.” So, wait, he doesn’t mean handing out leaflets in the street? “No, you would have groups of Nazis and groups of anti-fascists, and they would battle it out, down sidestreets, and sometimes it got quite violent. I mean, look at me, I’m not built for that. I never got involved in that. But that was the world it was.”..
    Oh give over. What if someone said “yes I was in the national front as a teenager” - would she simply have passed by that without mention and interrogation? Of course not. And the NF didn’t want to overthrow liberal capitalism - unlike the Trots

    It’s fuxking ludicrous. This guy is held up an an exemplary opponent of right wing political violence yet it turns out he was a revolutionary activist in his youth, desiring to end parliamentary democracy, and she doesn’t even note that this is somewhat jarring
    I don't get why we give communism such a free pass. Most of the most horrible regimes of modern history have been communist. Saying "I'm a communist" is tantamount to saying "I favour overthrowing liberal democracy and replacing it with a totalitarian system (which whenever it has been tried has led to tyranny)". Yet apparently we are unconcerned about having people who are members of the communist party as advisors to government (I'm thinking in particular of Susan Michie, during Covid). I'm content to allow people to take their own view on what society should be, but surely being a member of the communist party should ring some alarm bells? I'm pretty sure being a member of the National Front or whatever its equivalent is this year would raise the odd eyebrow.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,224

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Peter Hitchens was a student Trotskyist, too. And many other 1980's conservatives.
    Of course the millions who died under Stalin used their last breath to mutter "At least I'm dying for a noble cause - how bad would it be to be killed by a Nazi?"
    Stalin was definitely not a Trotskyist.
  • Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Is that so ?
    It acknowledges it, but does it condone ?
    .. “When I first got involved in anti-fascism – this was late 80s – it was all about the street. I’m not saying it was right, but that’s how it was. You didn’t have cameras.” So, wait, he doesn’t mean handing out leaflets in the street? “No, you would have groups of Nazis and groups of anti-fascists, and they would battle it out, down sidestreets, and sometimes it got quite violent. I mean, look at me, I’m not built for that. I never got involved in that. But that was the world it was.”..
    Oh give over. What if someone said “yes I was in the national front as a teenager” - would she simply have passed by that without mention and interrogation? Of course not. And the NF didn’t want to overthrow liberal capitalism - unlike the Trots

    It’s fuxking ludicrous. This guy is held up an an exemplary opponent of right wing political violence yet it turns out he was a revolutionary activist in his youth, desiring to end parliamentary democracy, and she doesn’t even note that this is somewhat jarring
    Weren’t you getting all moist about a demagogic street fighting man at the weekend?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,936

    Is speaking without notes a thing still?

    I rocked up to the last seat selection hustings I went to completely without notes. Knew my opening and closing comments verbatim and my key points. Completely flummoxed one of the other candidates who had reams of notes and even then kept forgetting her point.
    It's much better if you can. I gave my maiden speech in Parliament entirely from notes, as I was nervous. It was a bit rubbish, whereas later speeches without notes were better (though I'll never sway the millions).
    I’ve taught myself to play an extrovert and to be able to speak in public over the years, with bullet points and cue cards for a familiar subject - but a maiden speech in Parliament is one of those you’re going to want in front of you written out in full!
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,494
    FPT: Off topic, but I think many of you will appreciate this travel suggestion:
    Much has been done to educate the public about the dangers these snakes pose to the ecosystem. The water management district still hosts the annual the Florida python challenge, in partnership with the Florida Fish and Wildlife System. The 10-day marathon is held every August and draws competitors from around the world to compete for up to $30,000 (£23,582) in prize money. It's simple: whoever catches the longest Burmese python, wins.
    https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240318-florida-pays-people-to-hunt-invasive-burmese-pythons

    See a fascinating eco system, and compete to restore it to closer to its original state. What's not to like?
  • Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Peter Hitchens was a student Trotskyist, too. And many other 1980's conservatives.
    Of course the millions who died under Stalin used their last breath to mutter "At least I'm dying for a noble cause - how bad would it be to be killed by a Nazi?"
    Stalin was definitely not a Trotskyist.
    Indeed, Trotsky might be said to have been one of the millions who died under Stalin.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,224
    .

    The Queen is unable to attend the Duchess of Kent's funeral due to illness

    I wouldn't critise her if it prevented her being with Trump tomorrow

    I thought she died a few years ago
    It's a common problem to be confused as to who the Queen is (Camilla) and who the Duke of Edinburgh is (Edward).
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 5,357
    Late to the news today, but sad times :

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c1dqe9ey0kgo

    "Acting legend Robert Redford dies aged 89"
  • The Queen is unable to attend the Duchess of Kent's funeral due to illness

    I wouldn't critise her if it prevented her being with Trump tomorrow

    I thought she died a few years ago
    Strangely that is how I react when the Queen is mentioned !!!!
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,855
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Is that so ?
    It acknowledges it, but does it condone ?
    .. “When I first got involved in anti-fascism – this was late 80s – it was all about the street. I’m not saying it was right, but that’s how it was. You didn’t have cameras.” So, wait, he doesn’t mean handing out leaflets in the street? “No, you would have groups of Nazis and groups of anti-fascists, and they would battle it out, down sidestreets, and sometimes it got quite violent. I mean, look at me, I’m not built for that. I never got involved in that. But that was the world it was.”..
    Oh give over. What if someone said “yes I was in the national front as a teenager” - would she simply have passed by that without mention and interrogation? Of course not. And the NF didn’t want to overthrow liberal capitalism - unlike the Trots

    It’s fuxking ludicrous. This guy is held up an an exemplary opponent of right wing political violence yet it turns out he was a revolutionary activist in his youth, desiring to end parliamentary democracy, and she doesn’t even note that this is somewhat jarring
    You don't take a bow and arrow to a gunfight...
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,224
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Is that so ?
    It acknowledges it, but does it condone ?
    .. “When I first got involved in anti-fascism – this was late 80s – it was all about the street. I’m not saying it was right, but that’s how it was. You didn’t have cameras.” So, wait, he doesn’t mean handing out leaflets in the street? “No, you would have groups of Nazis and groups of anti-fascists, and they would battle it out, down sidestreets, and sometimes it got quite violent. I mean, look at me, I’m not built for that. I never got involved in that. But that was the world it was.”..
    Oh give over. What if someone said “yes I was in the national front as a teenager” - would she simply have passed by that without mention and interrogation? Of course not. And the NF didn’t want to overthrow liberal capitalism - unlike the Trots

    It’s fuxking ludicrous. This guy is held up an an exemplary opponent of right wing political violence yet it turns out he was a revolutionary activist in his youth, desiring to end parliamentary democracy, and she doesn’t even note that this is somewhat jarring
    I don't get why we give communism such a free pass. Most of the most horrible regimes of modern history have been communist. Saying "I'm a communist" is tantamount to saying "I favour overthrowing liberal democracy and replacing it with a totalitarian system (which whenever it has been tried has led to tyranny)". Yet apparently we are unconcerned about having people who are members of the communist party as advisors to government (I'm thinking in particular of Susan Michie, during Covid). I'm content to allow people to take their own view on what society should be, but surely being a member of the communist party should ring some alarm bells? I'm pretty sure being a member of the National Front or whatever its equivalent is this year would raise the odd eyebrow.
    The right-wing press and right-wong commentators are always going on about people with connections to the Communist party (or -ies). Where does this "apparently we are unconcerned" come from?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,546
    edited September 16

    FPT: Off topic, but I think many of you will appreciate this travel suggestion:

    Much has been done to educate the public about the dangers these snakes pose to the ecosystem. The water management district still hosts the annual the Florida python challenge, in partnership with the Florida Fish and Wildlife System. The 10-day marathon is held every August and draws competitors from around the world to compete for up to $30,000 (£23,582) in prize money. It's simple: whoever catches the longest Burmese python, wins.
    https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240318-florida-pays-people-to-hunt-invasive-burmese-pythons

    See a fascinating eco system, and compete to restore it to closer to its original state. What's not to like?

    Imagine the uproar if anyone tried that with grey squirrels in the UK. The reaction was bad enough with the recently introduced hedgehogs in the Long Island, and those were blatantly destroying the ground-nesting seabirds.
  • Sandpit said:

    Is speaking without notes a thing still?

    I rocked up to the last seat selection hustings I went to completely without notes. Knew my opening and closing comments verbatim and my key points. Completely flummoxed one of the other candidates who had reams of notes and even then kept forgetting her point.
    It's much better if you can. I gave my maiden speech in Parliament entirely from notes, as I was nervous. It was a bit rubbish, whereas later speeches without notes were better (though I'll never sway the millions).
    I’ve taught myself to play an extrovert and to be able to speak in public over the years, with bullet points and cue cards for a familiar subject - but a maiden speech in Parliament is one of those you’re going to want in front of you written out in full!
    As somebody who regularly gives speeches to large meetings I've learned it is best to write bullet points down (and key gags) down rather than the whole speech.

    I once used a teleprompter and it was a bigger disaster than the Liz Truss premiership, I kept on looking at that and completely losing my focus.

    Had I become an MP my first speech to Parliament would have begun like this

    'Hello, my name is Mr Eagles, and I'm an alcoholic, oh wait, wrong speech.'
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,912
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Is that so ?
    It acknowledges it, but does it condone ?
    .. “When I first got involved in anti-fascism – this was late 80s – it was all about the street. I’m not saying it was right, but that’s how it was. You didn’t have cameras.” So, wait, he doesn’t mean handing out leaflets in the street? “No, you would have groups of Nazis and groups of anti-fascists, and they would battle it out, down sidestreets, and sometimes it got quite violent. I mean, look at me, I’m not built for that. I never got involved in that. But that was the world it was.”..
    Oh give over. What if someone said “yes I was in the national front as a teenager” - would she simply have passed by that without mention and interrogation? Of course not. And the NF didn’t want to overthrow liberal capitalism - unlike the Trots

    It’s fuxking ludicrous. This guy is held up an an exemplary opponent of right wing political violence yet it turns out he was a revolutionary activist in his youth, desiring to end parliamentary democracy, and she doesn’t even note that this is somewhat jarring
    Yeah the NF just wanted to round up my wife's family and millions like them and throw them out of the country. Harmless stuff.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 65,250

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Is that so ?
    It acknowledges it, but does it condone ?
    .. “When I first got involved in anti-fascism – this was late 80s – it was all about the street. I’m not saying it was right, but that’s how it was. You didn’t have cameras.” So, wait, he doesn’t mean handing out leaflets in the street? “No, you would have groups of Nazis and groups of anti-fascists, and they would battle it out, down sidestreets, and sometimes it got quite violent. I mean, look at me, I’m not built for that. I never got involved in that. But that was the world it was.”..
    Oh give over. What if someone said “yes I was in the national front as a teenager” - would she simply have passed by that without mention and interrogation? Of course not. And the NF didn’t want to overthrow liberal capitalism - unlike the Trots

    It’s fuxking ludicrous. This guy is held up an an exemplary opponent of right wing political violence yet it turns out he was a revolutionary activist in his youth, desiring to end parliamentary democracy, and she doesn’t even note that this is somewhat jarring
    I don't get why we give communism such a free pass. Most of the most horrible regimes of modern history have been communist. Saying "I'm a communist" is tantamount to saying "I favour overthrowing liberal democracy and replacing it with a totalitarian system (which whenever it has been tried has led to tyranny)". Yet apparently we are unconcerned about having people who are members of the communist party as advisors to government (I'm thinking in particular of Susan Michie, during Covid). I'm content to allow people to take their own view on what society should be, but surely being a member of the communist party should ring some alarm bells? I'm pretty sure being a member of the National Front or whatever its equivalent is this year would raise the odd eyebrow.
    The right-wing press and right-wong commentators are always going on about people with connections to the Communist party (or -ies). Where does this "apparently we are unconcerned" come from?
    Because being an avowed self declared communist does not stop people rising to positions of great seniority, whereas just being associated with the far right can get you sacked from any job
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,092

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Is that so ?
    It acknowledges it, but does it condone ?
    .. “When I first got involved in anti-fascism – this was late 80s – it was all about the street. I’m not saying it was right, but that’s how it was. You didn’t have cameras.” So, wait, he doesn’t mean handing out leaflets in the street? “No, you would have groups of Nazis and groups of anti-fascists, and they would battle it out, down sidestreets, and sometimes it got quite violent. I mean, look at me, I’m not built for that. I never got involved in that. But that was the world it was.”..
    Oh give over. What if someone said “yes I was in the national front as a teenager” - would she simply have passed by that without mention and interrogation? Of course not. And the NF didn’t want to overthrow liberal capitalism - unlike the Trots

    It’s fuxking ludicrous. This guy is held up an an exemplary opponent of right wing political violence yet it turns out he was a revolutionary activist in his youth, desiring to end parliamentary democracy, and she doesn’t even note that this is somewhat jarring
    I don't get why we give communism such a free pass. Most of the most horrible regimes of modern history have been communist. Saying "I'm a communist" is tantamount to saying "I favour overthrowing liberal democracy and replacing it with a totalitarian system (which whenever it has been tried has led to tyranny)". Yet apparently we are unconcerned about having people who are members of the communist party as advisors to government (I'm thinking in particular of Susan Michie, during Covid). I'm content to allow people to take their own view on what society should be, but surely being a member of the communist party should ring some alarm bells? I'm pretty sure being a member of the National Front or whatever its equivalent is this year would raise the odd eyebrow.
    The right-wing press and right-wong commentators are always going on about people with connections to the Communist party (or -ies). Where does this "apparently we are unconcerned" come from?
    Easy. If you went to most parties and said: "I am a Nazi" or "I am a fascist", you will get thrown out, or worse. If you say "I am a Communist", you might get a roll of the eyes, but little else.

    Communism is *much* more acceptable, despite its blood-drenched history.

    They were both terrible ideologies.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,546
    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Just put on a random home video from 1995 and it shows a wind turbine farm somewhere in either Devon or Cornwall. Must have been one of the first ones to be set up.

    I used to go to Ilfracombe in North Devon as a young teenager and there used to be a wind turbine between Lee and Ilfracombe - would have been the mid eighties.
    The world's first electricity generating wind turbine (for charging batteries):

    When and where? Without looking it up.

    Marconi in Cornwall?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,273
    Standards commissioner is investigating James McMurdock for alleged facilitation of racist abuse online
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,912
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Is that so ?
    It acknowledges it, but does it condone ?
    .. “When I first got involved in anti-fascism – this was late 80s – it was all about the street. I’m not saying it was right, but that’s how it was. You didn’t have cameras.” So, wait, he doesn’t mean handing out leaflets in the street? “No, you would have groups of Nazis and groups of anti-fascists, and they would battle it out, down sidestreets, and sometimes it got quite violent. I mean, look at me, I’m not built for that. I never got involved in that. But that was the world it was.”..
    Oh give over. What if someone said “yes I was in the national front as a teenager” - would she simply have passed by that without mention and interrogation? Of course not. And the NF didn’t want to overthrow liberal capitalism - unlike the Trots

    It’s fuxking ludicrous. This guy is held up an an exemplary opponent of right wing political violence yet it turns out he was a revolutionary activist in his youth, desiring to end parliamentary democracy, and she doesn’t even note that this is somewhat jarring
    I don't get why we give communism such a free pass. Most of the most horrible regimes of modern history have been communist. Saying "I'm a communist" is tantamount to saying "I favour overthrowing liberal democracy and replacing it with a totalitarian system (which whenever it has been tried has led to tyranny)". Yet apparently we are unconcerned about having people who are members of the communist party as advisors to government (I'm thinking in particular of Susan Michie, during Covid). I'm content to allow people to take their own view on what society should be, but surely being a member of the communist party should ring some alarm bells? I'm pretty sure being a member of the National Front or whatever its equivalent is this year would raise the odd eyebrow.
    Boris Johnson elevated Claire Fox, a former member of the Revolutionary Communist Party, to the House of Lords. Did any of the PB Rightists complain about that?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,264

    FTP...

    Eabhal said:

    boulay said:

    Sir David Davis is uniting the Commons against Mandelson

    I wonder what further measures they can take against Mandelson. Expulsion from the Lords, a prison sentence, execution even?
    Silly comment

    He should be removed from Labour and the Lords
    For what?
    Writing yum yum in a birthday card?

    This is hysteria.
    Maybe if you listen to the house debate you would see mps anger and more importantly the Epstein victims family tearful interviews about Mandelson

    By the sounds of it, the “debate” is less of a debate than a tawdry display of schmaltz-stirring.
    What is tawdy is Mandelson representing our country

    An appointment widely considered very savvy politics, and which seems to have actually paid off for the UK, at least until last week.

    I dislike Mandelson as much as the next man, but his excessive loyalty to Epstein is the least of his offences, and Britain is in a geopolitical crisis.
    Tell that to the Epstein's family victims who condemned him in tears this weekend
    In your excitability, your posts give the impression that Mandelson should be held responsible for the abuse that Epstein's victims suffered. I don't think anybody is accusing Mandelson of that. If Mandelson had never existed, I don't imagine it would have made any difference to Epstein's victims.

    Mandelson was a poor appointment by Starmer, especially with the benefit of hindsight. But that's about all there is to it.
    There is nothing excitable about the victims families tears even if you find this difficult

    Indeed Ed Davey is speaking on this now
    Unfortunately discussing the victims’ families tears does not serve to improve the country - the Mandelson appointment was an error, the PM probably knows and accepts this and is running out of rope, everyone has had their pound of flesh (however much it is fun to jab at Starmer on here for it).

    This debate however shows, in my mind, how unserious our political class has got. There will inevitably be shroud waving and MPs lining up to emote, do doubt we will have tearful personal stories from MPs as has become a habit and it won’t change a damn thing in the country or the world but will make MPs feel worthy.

    As TSE pointed out earlier, this time would be better used on matters such as drone incursions into Poland, sending RAF planes and other kit to aid our ally. Or debating the new google data centre’s future energy needs in relation to closing off North Sea drilling, frankly anything that MPs can achieve to make the country run better and grow.

    This however is easy vanity, Mandelson has paid the price, Starmer is paying a price, others in his team will pay a price and yet nothing said today will ensure that the majority of those responsible with Epstein, namely a lot of high profile Americans, will pay a price as it’s not in the remit of Parliament.
    Yes. My point, eloquently expanded.
    I agree, but everyone seemed happy to pile in on partygate, which was equally trivial.
    Partygate seems neither comparable or trivial. We've recently had more revelations about Johnson holding gatherings in breach of the rules as well.
    Partygate was certainly not trivial on the doorstep. When I was canvassing in the West Country one old boy burst into tears when the topic came up.
    And I am sure that you can find many similarly aghast at Mandelson - victims of childhood sexual abuse for instance. The point upthread is that there are serious issues affecting the country yet parliament is wasting three hours on this. I felt the same about partygate.
    Partygate was critically important because if we have another national emergency we need people to trust the establishment when asked to make significant personal sacrifices - from going to war or abandoning homes ahead of a flood, or rationing food.

    The COVID rules may have been silly*, but that was in the main an honest misjudgment. That will happen again if the big flood doesn't actually materialise, or a harvest does eventually come in. But we expect our leaders to make those decisions to the best of their ability and to abide by they own instructions.

    *no indoor mixing was one of the more sensible ones IMO, particularly at the time the parties
    Of course one of the silliest things was that you could work in the office all day but as soon as work stopped you could no longer mix. Which was mad. If you weren't infected between 9 and 5, 5-6 probably wasn't going to do it.

    I know I am probably in a minority of one, but I genuinely think Johnson tried his best. He was not at the hedonistic parties that have come to represent partygate to the public, but I suspect a lot of people think he was.
    He wasn't, but we've recently discovered that there were a bunch of additional social engagements Johnson held in breach of the rules.
    Have we? Not seen that.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/sep/08/boris-johnson-had-dinner-in-lockdown-with-peer-funding-flat-refit-files-suggest
    Thin gruel - the baby shower in particular. And doesn't really change what anyone thinks of Johnson.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,668
    edited September 16

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Is that so ?
    It acknowledges it, but does it condone ?
    .. “When I first got involved in anti-fascism – this was late 80s – it was all about the street. I’m not saying it was right, but that’s how it was. You didn’t have cameras.” So, wait, he doesn’t mean handing out leaflets in the street? “No, you would have groups of Nazis and groups of anti-fascists, and they would battle it out, down sidestreets, and sometimes it got quite violent. I mean, look at me, I’m not built for that. I never got involved in that. But that was the world it was.”..
    Oh give over. What if someone said “yes I was in the national front as a teenager” - would she simply have passed by that without mention and interrogation? Of course not. And the NF didn’t want to overthrow liberal capitalism - unlike the Trots

    It’s fuxking ludicrous. This guy is held up an an exemplary opponent of right wing political violence yet it turns out he was a revolutionary activist in his youth, desiring to end parliamentary democracy, and she doesn’t even note that this is somewhat jarring
    I don't get why we give communism such a free pass. Most of the most horrible regimes of modern history have been communist. Saying "I'm a communist" is tantamount to saying "I favour overthrowing liberal democracy and replacing it with a totalitarian system (which whenever it has been tried has led to tyranny)". Yet apparently we are unconcerned about having people who are members of the communist party as advisors to government (I'm thinking in particular of Susan Michie, during Covid). I'm content to allow people to take their own view on what society should be, but surely being a member of the communist party should ring some alarm bells? I'm pretty sure being a member of the National Front or whatever its equivalent is this year would raise the odd eyebrow.
    Boris Johnson elevated Claire Fox, a former member of the Revolutionary Communist Party, to the House of Lords. Did any of the PB Rightists complain about that?
    And Munira Mirza also, another one of the same group, inspired by the cult-like power of Frank Furedi.

    Even the whole lot of them still run Spiked, which was key to the whole establishment of a Brexit constituency.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,100

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Is that so ?
    It acknowledges it, but does it condone ?
    .. “When I first got involved in anti-fascism – this was late 80s – it was all about the street. I’m not saying it was right, but that’s how it was. You didn’t have cameras.” So, wait, he doesn’t mean handing out leaflets in the street? “No, you would have groups of Nazis and groups of anti-fascists, and they would battle it out, down sidestreets, and sometimes it got quite violent. I mean, look at me, I’m not built for that. I never got involved in that. But that was the world it was.”..
    Oh give over. What if someone said “yes I was in the national front as a teenager” - would she simply have passed by that without mention and interrogation? Of course not. And the NF didn’t want to overthrow liberal capitalism - unlike the Trots

    It’s fuxking ludicrous. This guy is held up an an exemplary opponent of right wing political violence yet it turns out he was a revolutionary activist in his youth, desiring to end parliamentary democracy, and she doesn’t even note that this is somewhat jarring
    I don't get why we give communism such a free pass. Most of the most horrible regimes of modern history have been communist. Saying "I'm a communist" is tantamount to saying "I favour overthrowing liberal democracy and replacing it with a totalitarian system (which whenever it has been tried has led to tyranny)". Yet apparently we are unconcerned about having people who are members of the communist party as advisors to government (I'm thinking in particular of Susan Michie, during Covid). I'm content to allow people to take their own view on what society should be, but surely being a member of the communist party should ring some alarm bells? I'm pretty sure being a member of the National Front or whatever its equivalent is this year would raise the odd eyebrow.
    The right-wing press and right-wong commentators are always going on about people with connections to the Communist party (or -ies). Where does this "apparently we are unconcerned" come from?
    Easy. If you went to most parties and said: "I am a Nazi" or "I am a fascist", you will get thrown out, or worse. If you say "I am a Communist", you might get a roll of the eyes, but little else.

    Communism is *much* more acceptable, despite its blood-drenched history.

    They were both terrible ideologies.
    And because - to take the advantage of Susan Michie - members of the communist party are able to work for and advise government.
  • I once gave a speech/talk to some bankers and it began with the statistics of being raped in an American prison.

    Once I finished the stats I told them this was important if they didn't follow the rules I was implementing from next week their fate mind up like the Natwest Three who were extradited under Blair's one sided extradition treaty.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,495
    edited September 16
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Is that so ?
    It acknowledges it, but does it condone ?
    .. “When I first got involved in anti-fascism – this was late 80s – it was all about the street. I’m not saying it was right, but that’s how it was. You didn’t have cameras.” So, wait, he doesn’t mean handing out leaflets in the street? “No, you would have groups of Nazis and groups of anti-fascists, and they would battle it out, down sidestreets, and sometimes it got quite violent. I mean, look at me, I’m not built for that. I never got involved in that. But that was the world it was.”..
    My response to hearing about someone getting involved in anti-fascism campaigns in Britain in the 80s would be something like: since nearly every country in the world is more racist than the UK, why on earth weren't you going to those other countries to do your campaigning?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,100

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Is that so ?
    It acknowledges it, but does it condone ?
    .. “When I first got involved in anti-fascism – this was late 80s – it was all about the street. I’m not saying it was right, but that’s how it was. You didn’t have cameras.” So, wait, he doesn’t mean handing out leaflets in the street? “No, you would have groups of Nazis and groups of anti-fascists, and they would battle it out, down sidestreets, and sometimes it got quite violent. I mean, look at me, I’m not built for that. I never got involved in that. But that was the world it was.”..
    Oh give over. What if someone said “yes I was in the national front as a teenager” - would she simply have passed by that without mention and interrogation? Of course not. And the NF didn’t want to overthrow liberal capitalism - unlike the Trots

    It’s fuxking ludicrous. This guy is held up an an exemplary opponent of right wing political violence yet it turns out he was a revolutionary activist in his youth, desiring to end parliamentary democracy, and she doesn’t even note that this is somewhat jarring
    Yeah the NF just wanted to round up my wife's family and millions like them and throw them out of the country. Harmless stuff.
    Whereas communists are all sweetness and light and hardly ever engage in mass murder?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,546
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Is that so ?
    It acknowledges it, but does it condone ?
    .. “When I first got involved in anti-fascism – this was late 80s – it was all about the street. I’m not saying it was right, but that’s how it was. You didn’t have cameras.” So, wait, he doesn’t mean handing out leaflets in the street? “No, you would have groups of Nazis and groups of anti-fascists, and they would battle it out, down sidestreets, and sometimes it got quite violent. I mean, look at me, I’m not built for that. I never got involved in that. But that was the world it was.”..
    Oh give over. What if someone said “yes I was in the national front as a teenager” - would she simply have passed by that without mention and interrogation? Of course not. And the NF didn’t want to overthrow liberal capitalism - unlike the Trots

    It’s fuxking ludicrous. This guy is held up an an exemplary opponent of right wing political violence yet it turns out he was a revolutionary activist in his youth, desiring to end parliamentary democracy, and she doesn’t even note that this is somewhat jarring
    I don't get why we give communism such a free pass. Most of the most horrible regimes of modern history have been communist. Saying "I'm a communist" is tantamount to saying "I favour overthrowing liberal democracy and replacing it with a totalitarian system (which whenever it has been tried has led to tyranny)". Yet apparently we are unconcerned about having people who are members of the communist party as advisors to government (I'm thinking in particular of Susan Michie, during Covid). I'm content to allow people to take their own view on what society should be, but surely being a member of the communist party should ring some alarm bells? I'm pretty sure being a member of the National Front or whatever its equivalent is this year would raise the odd eyebrow.
    The right-wing press and right-wong commentators are always going on about people with connections to the Communist party (or -ies). Where does this "apparently we are unconcerned" come from?
    Easy. If you went to most parties and said: "I am a Nazi" or "I am a fascist", you will get thrown out, or worse. If you say "I am a Communist", you might get a roll of the eyes, but little else.

    Communism is *much* more acceptable, despite its blood-drenched history.

    They were both terrible ideologies.
    And because - to take the advantage of Susan Michie - members of the communist party are able to work for and advise government.
    Er, 'example' surely ...
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,264

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Peter Hitchens was a student Trotskyist, too. And many other 1980's conservatives.
    Of course the millions who died under Stalin used their last breath to mutter "At least I'm dying for a noble cause - how bad would it be to be killed by a Nazi?"
    Stalin was definitely not a Trotskyist.
    He was a communist though.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,835
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Is that so ?
    It acknowledges it, but does it condone ?
    .. “When I first got involved in anti-fascism – this was late 80s – it was all about the street. I’m not saying it was right, but that’s how it was. You didn’t have cameras.” So, wait, he doesn’t mean handing out leaflets in the street? “No, you would have groups of Nazis and groups of anti-fascists, and they would battle it out, down sidestreets, and sometimes it got quite violent. I mean, look at me, I’m not built for that. I never got involved in that. But that was the world it was.”..
    Oh give over. What if someone said “yes I was in the national front as a teenager” - would she simply have passed by that without mention and interrogation? Of course not. And the NF didn’t want to overthrow liberal capitalism - unlike the Trots

    It’s fuxking ludicrous. This guy is held up an an exemplary opponent of right wing political violence yet it turns out he was a revolutionary activist in his youth, desiring to end parliamentary democracy, and she doesn’t even note that this is somewhat jarring
    I don't get why we give communism such a free pass. Most of the most horrible regimes of modern history have been communist. Saying "I'm a communist" is tantamount to saying "I favour overthrowing liberal democracy and replacing it with a totalitarian system (which whenever it has been tried has led to tyranny)". Yet apparently we are unconcerned about having people who are members of the communist party as advisors to government (I'm thinking in particular of Susan Michie, during Covid). I'm content to allow people to take their own view on what society should be, but surely being a member of the communist party should ring some alarm bells? I'm pretty sure being a member of the National Front or whatever its equivalent is this year would raise the odd eyebrow.
    Agreed. It ought to be a disqualification from sober society in the same way as former membership of the NF or BNP. There isn’t a communist regime anywhere in the world that hasn’t resulted in the most horrible repression and atrocities (the regional government in Kerala is perhaps an exception). And it’s a myth that it all started so well and was perverted by Stalin - not only there are horrific tales from the civil war itself, but anyone who thinks early communism was more humane should go research the suppression of the Tambov rebellion in the early 1920s.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,320

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Is that so ?
    It acknowledges it, but does it condone ?
    .. “When I first got involved in anti-fascism – this was late 80s – it was all about the street. I’m not saying it was right, but that’s how it was. You didn’t have cameras.” So, wait, he doesn’t mean handing out leaflets in the street? “No, you would have groups of Nazis and groups of anti-fascists, and they would battle it out, down sidestreets, and sometimes it got quite violent. I mean, look at me, I’m not built for that. I never got involved in that. But that was the world it was.”..
    Oh give over. What if someone said “yes I was in the national front as a teenager” - would she simply have passed by that without mention and interrogation? Of course not. And the NF didn’t want to overthrow liberal capitalism - unlike the Trots

    It’s fuxking ludicrous. This guy is held up an an exemplary opponent of right wing political violence yet it turns out he was a revolutionary activist in his youth, desiring to end parliamentary democracy, and she doesn’t even note that this is somewhat jarring
    I don't get why we give communism such a free pass. Most of the most horrible regimes of modern history have been communist. Saying "I'm a communist" is tantamount to saying "I favour overthrowing liberal democracy and replacing it with a totalitarian system (which whenever it has been tried has led to tyranny)". Yet apparently we are unconcerned about having people who are members of the communist party as advisors to government (I'm thinking in particular of Susan Michie, during Covid). I'm content to allow people to take their own view on what society should be, but surely being a member of the communist party should ring some alarm bells? I'm pretty sure being a member of the National Front or whatever its equivalent is this year would raise the odd eyebrow.
    Boris Johnson elevated Claire Fox, a former member of the Revolutionary Communist Party, to the House of Lords. Did any of the PB Rightists complain about that?
    I see to remember a lot did - there were some Boris die hards but also a lot of Tories who found a lot of what he did to be ridiculous/wrong and sometimes good. It’s strange but people can have nuanced views.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,990
    Before I read the full header I thought SKS had resigned whilst I wasn't looking.
  • Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Is that so ?
    It acknowledges it, but does it condone ?
    .. “When I first got involved in anti-fascism – this was late 80s – it was all about the street. I’m not saying it was right, but that’s how it was. You didn’t have cameras.” So, wait, he doesn’t mean handing out leaflets in the street? “No, you would have groups of Nazis and groups of anti-fascists, and they would battle it out, down sidestreets, and sometimes it got quite violent. I mean, look at me, I’m not built for that. I never got involved in that. But that was the world it was.”..
    Oh give over. What if someone said “yes I was in the national front as a teenager” - would she simply have passed by that without mention and interrogation? Of course not. And the NF didn’t want to overthrow liberal capitalism - unlike the Trots

    It’s fuxking ludicrous. This guy is held up an an exemplary opponent of right wing political violence yet it turns out he was a revolutionary activist in his youth, desiring to end parliamentary democracy, and she doesn’t even note that this is somewhat jarring
    I don't get why we give communism such a free pass. Most of the most horrible regimes of modern history have been communist. Saying "I'm a communist" is tantamount to saying "I favour overthrowing liberal democracy and replacing it with a totalitarian system (which whenever it has been tried has led to tyranny)". Yet apparently we are unconcerned about having people who are members of the communist party as advisors to government (I'm thinking in particular of Susan Michie, during Covid). I'm content to allow people to take their own view on what society should be, but surely being a member of the communist party should ring some alarm bells? I'm pretty sure being a member of the National Front or whatever its equivalent is this year would raise the odd eyebrow.
    Boris Johnson elevated Claire Fox, a former member of the Revolutionary Communist Party, to the House of Lords. Did any of the PB Rightists complain about that?
    As long as you’re sound on Brexit, those lads can forgive the IRA luvvin Commie business.
  • Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Is that so ?
    It acknowledges it, but does it condone ?
    .. “When I first got involved in anti-fascism – this was late 80s – it was all about the street. I’m not saying it was right, but that’s how it was. You didn’t have cameras.” So, wait, he doesn’t mean handing out leaflets in the street? “No, you would have groups of Nazis and groups of anti-fascists, and they would battle it out, down sidestreets, and sometimes it got quite violent. I mean, look at me, I’m not built for that. I never got involved in that. But that was the world it was.”..
    Oh give over. What if someone said “yes I was in the national front as a teenager” - would she simply have passed by that without mention and interrogation? Of course not. And the NF didn’t want to overthrow liberal capitalism - unlike the Trots

    It’s fuxking ludicrous. This guy is held up an an exemplary opponent of right wing political violence yet it turns out he was a revolutionary activist in his youth, desiring to end parliamentary democracy, and she doesn’t even note that this is somewhat jarring
    Weren’t you getting all moist about a demagogic street fighting man at the weekend?
    Leon is too much of a Centrist Dad to turn up at these Tommehist Marches!
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,100
    Carnyx said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Is that so ?
    It acknowledges it, but does it condone ?
    .. “When I first got involved in anti-fascism – this was late 80s – it was all about the street. I’m not saying it was right, but that’s how it was. You didn’t have cameras.” So, wait, he doesn’t mean handing out leaflets in the street? “No, you would have groups of Nazis and groups of anti-fascists, and they would battle it out, down sidestreets, and sometimes it got quite violent. I mean, look at me, I’m not built for that. I never got involved in that. But that was the world it was.”..
    Oh give over. What if someone said “yes I was in the national front as a teenager” - would she simply have passed by that without mention and interrogation? Of course not. And the NF didn’t want to overthrow liberal capitalism - unlike the Trots

    It’s fuxking ludicrous. This guy is held up an an exemplary opponent of right wing political violence yet it turns out he was a revolutionary activist in his youth, desiring to end parliamentary democracy, and she doesn’t even note that this is somewhat jarring
    I don't get why we give communism such a free pass. Most of the most horrible regimes of modern history have been communist. Saying "I'm a communist" is tantamount to saying "I favour overthrowing liberal democracy and replacing it with a totalitarian system (which whenever it has been tried has led to tyranny)". Yet apparently we are unconcerned about having people who are members of the communist party as advisors to government (I'm thinking in particular of Susan Michie, during Covid). I'm content to allow people to take their own view on what society should be, but surely being a member of the communist party should ring some alarm bells? I'm pretty sure being a member of the National Front or whatever its equivalent is this year would raise the odd eyebrow.
    The right-wing press and right-wong commentators are always going on about people with connections to the Communist party (or -ies). Where does this "apparently we are unconcerned" come from?
    Easy. If you went to most parties and said: "I am a Nazi" or "I am a fascist", you will get thrown out, or worse. If you say "I am a Communist", you might get a roll of the eyes, but little else.

    Communism is *much* more acceptable, despite its blood-drenched history.

    They were both terrible ideologies.
    And because - to take the advantage of Susan Michie - members of the communist party are able to work for and advise government.
    Er, 'example' surely ...
    *cough* er, yes, indeed.
  • Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Peter Hitchens was a student Trotskyist, too. And many other 1980's conservatives.
    Of course the millions who died under Stalin used their last breath to mutter "At least I'm dying for a noble cause - how bad would it be to be killed by a Nazi?"
    Stalin was definitely not a Trotskyist.
    He was a communist though.
    So why did Stalin have him murdered?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,224

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Is that so ?
    It acknowledges it, but does it condone ?
    .. “When I first got involved in anti-fascism – this was late 80s – it was all about the street. I’m not saying it was right, but that’s how it was. You didn’t have cameras.” So, wait, he doesn’t mean handing out leaflets in the street? “No, you would have groups of Nazis and groups of anti-fascists, and they would battle it out, down sidestreets, and sometimes it got quite violent. I mean, look at me, I’m not built for that. I never got involved in that. But that was the world it was.”..
    Oh give over. What if someone said “yes I was in the national front as a teenager” - would she simply have passed by that without mention and interrogation? Of course not. And the NF didn’t want to overthrow liberal capitalism - unlike the Trots

    It’s fuxking ludicrous. This guy is held up an an exemplary opponent of right wing political violence yet it turns out he was a revolutionary activist in his youth, desiring to end parliamentary democracy, and she doesn’t even note that this is somewhat jarring
    I don't get why we give communism such a free pass. Most of the most horrible regimes of modern history have been communist. Saying "I'm a communist" is tantamount to saying "I favour overthrowing liberal democracy and replacing it with a totalitarian system (which whenever it has been tried has led to tyranny)". Yet apparently we are unconcerned about having people who are members of the communist party as advisors to government (I'm thinking in particular of Susan Michie, during Covid). I'm content to allow people to take their own view on what society should be, but surely being a member of the communist party should ring some alarm bells? I'm pretty sure being a member of the National Front or whatever its equivalent is this year would raise the odd eyebrow.
    The right-wing press and right-wong commentators are always going on about people with connections to the Communist party (or -ies). Where does this "apparently we are unconcerned" come from?
    Easy. If you went to most parties and said: "I am a Nazi" or "I am a fascist", you will get thrown out, or worse. If you say "I am a Communist", you might get a roll of the eyes, but little else.

    Communism is *much* more acceptable, despite its blood-drenched history.

    They were both terrible ideologies.
    They were, and indeed still are, both terrible ideologies.

    Fascism says it wants to spill blood. Communism says it doesn't want to spill blood... but has often ended up there. That's the difference. I share your criticisms of communism and I think those who support communism should be strongly pressed on what they think was happening in the Soviet Union, Cambodia, Albania etc., but they're not actively calling for violence in quite the same way as fascists.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,792
    edited September 16

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Is that so ?
    It acknowledges it, but does it condone ?
    .. “When I first got involved in anti-fascism – this was late 80s – it was all about the street. I’m not saying it was right, but that’s how it was. You didn’t have cameras.” So, wait, he doesn’t mean handing out leaflets in the street? “No, you would have groups of Nazis and groups of anti-fascists, and they would battle it out, down sidestreets, and sometimes it got quite violent. I mean, look at me, I’m not built for that. I never got involved in that. But that was the world it was.”..
    Oh give over. What if someone said “yes I was in the national front as a teenager” - would she simply have passed by that without mention and interrogation? Of course not. And the NF didn’t want to overthrow liberal capitalism - unlike the Trots

    It’s fuxking ludicrous. This guy is held up an an exemplary opponent of right wing political violence yet it turns out he was a revolutionary activist in his youth, desiring to end parliamentary democracy, and she doesn’t even note that this is somewhat jarring
    I don't get why we give communism such a free pass. Most of the most horrible regimes of modern history have been communist. Saying "I'm a communist" is tantamount to saying "I favour overthrowing liberal democracy and replacing it with a totalitarian system (which whenever it has been tried has led to tyranny)". Yet apparently we are unconcerned about having people who are members of the communist party as advisors to government (I'm thinking in particular of Susan Michie, during Covid). I'm content to allow people to take their own view on what society should be, but surely being a member of the communist party should ring some alarm bells? I'm pretty sure being a member of the National Front or whatever its equivalent is this year would raise the odd eyebrow.
    Boris Johnson elevated Claire Fox, a former member of the Revolutionary Communist Party, to the House of Lords. Did any of the PB Rightists complain about that?
    I did.

    Fucking disgrace that Boris Johnson put that IRA apologist in the Lords.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,912
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Is that so ?
    It acknowledges it, but does it condone ?
    .. “When I first got involved in anti-fascism – this was late 80s – it was all about the street. I’m not saying it was right, but that’s how it was. You didn’t have cameras.” So, wait, he doesn’t mean handing out leaflets in the street? “No, you would have groups of Nazis and groups of anti-fascists, and they would battle it out, down sidestreets, and sometimes it got quite violent. I mean, look at me, I’m not built for that. I never got involved in that. But that was the world it was.”..
    Oh give over. What if someone said “yes I was in the national front as a teenager” - would she simply have passed by that without mention and interrogation? Of course not. And the NF didn’t want to overthrow liberal capitalism - unlike the Trots

    It’s fuxking ludicrous. This guy is held up an an exemplary opponent of right wing political violence yet it turns out he was a revolutionary activist in his youth, desiring to end parliamentary democracy, and she doesn’t even note that this is somewhat jarring
    Yeah the NF just wanted to round up my wife's family and millions like them and throw them out of the country. Harmless stuff.
    Whereas communists are all sweetness and light and hardly ever engage in mass murder?
    In the postwar UK the comparison is ludicrous and could only be made by a heterosexual white person. Anyone who is a member of a minority group knows that the far right pose a physical threat to their safety. I know people who had to literally fight the far right in order to remain in their homes in the 1970s/80s. Anyone who experienced the same kind of physical threat from the socialist workers party please feel free to share your experiences.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,092

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Peter Hitchens was a student Trotskyist, too. And many other 1980's conservatives.
    Of course the millions who died under Stalin used their last breath to mutter "At least I'm dying for a noble cause - how bad would it be to be killed by a Nazi?"
    Stalin was definitely not a Trotskyist.
    He was a communist though.
    So why did Stalin have him murdered?
    It's startling how many of Stalin's comrades from the start of the revolution were killed off by him. Because he perceived them as threats to his power.

    Because Communism is shite.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,376
    ohnotnow said:

    Late to the news today, but sad times :

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c1dqe9ey0kgo

    "Acting legend Robert Redford dies aged 89"

    Next time I say let's go someplace like Bolivia let's GO someplace like Bolivia ...
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,990
    Will we be seeing 'Phillipson Direct' sessions all round the country?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,224

    FTP...

    Eabhal said:

    boulay said:

    Sir David Davis is uniting the Commons against Mandelson

    I wonder what further measures they can take against Mandelson. Expulsion from the Lords, a prison sentence, execution even?
    Silly comment

    He should be removed from Labour and the Lords
    For what?
    Writing yum yum in a birthday card?

    This is hysteria.
    Maybe if you listen to the house debate you would see mps anger and more importantly the Epstein victims family tearful interviews about Mandelson

    By the sounds of it, the “debate” is less of a debate than a tawdry display of schmaltz-stirring.
    What is tawdy is Mandelson representing our country

    An appointment widely considered very savvy politics, and which seems to have actually paid off for the UK, at least until last week.

    I dislike Mandelson as much as the next man, but his excessive loyalty to Epstein is the least of his offences, and Britain is in a geopolitical crisis.
    Tell that to the Epstein's family victims who condemned him in tears this weekend
    In your excitability, your posts give the impression that Mandelson should be held responsible for the abuse that Epstein's victims suffered. I don't think anybody is accusing Mandelson of that. If Mandelson had never existed, I don't imagine it would have made any difference to Epstein's victims.

    Mandelson was a poor appointment by Starmer, especially with the benefit of hindsight. But that's about all there is to it.
    There is nothing excitable about the victims families tears even if you find this difficult

    Indeed Ed Davey is speaking on this now
    Unfortunately discussing the victims’ families tears does not serve to improve the country - the Mandelson appointment was an error, the PM probably knows and accepts this and is running out of rope, everyone has had their pound of flesh (however much it is fun to jab at Starmer on here for it).

    This debate however shows, in my mind, how unserious our political class has got. There will inevitably be shroud waving and MPs lining up to emote, do doubt we will have tearful personal stories from MPs as has become a habit and it won’t change a damn thing in the country or the world but will make MPs feel worthy.

    As TSE pointed out earlier, this time would be better used on matters such as drone incursions into Poland, sending RAF planes and other kit to aid our ally. Or debating the new google data centre’s future energy needs in relation to closing off North Sea drilling, frankly anything that MPs can achieve to make the country run better and grow.

    This however is easy vanity, Mandelson has paid the price, Starmer is paying a price, others in his team will pay a price and yet nothing said today will ensure that the majority of those responsible with Epstein, namely a lot of high profile Americans, will pay a price as it’s not in the remit of Parliament.
    Yes. My point, eloquently expanded.
    I agree, but everyone seemed happy to pile in on partygate, which was equally trivial.
    Partygate seems neither comparable or trivial. We've recently had more revelations about Johnson holding gatherings in breach of the rules as well.
    Partygate was certainly not trivial on the doorstep. When I was canvassing in the West Country one old boy burst into tears when the topic came up.
    And I am sure that you can find many similarly aghast at Mandelson - victims of childhood sexual abuse for instance. The point upthread is that there are serious issues affecting the country yet parliament is wasting three hours on this. I felt the same about partygate.
    Partygate was critically important because if we have another national emergency we need people to trust the establishment when asked to make significant personal sacrifices - from going to war or abandoning homes ahead of a flood, or rationing food.

    The COVID rules may have been silly*, but that was in the main an honest misjudgment. That will happen again if the big flood doesn't actually materialise, or a harvest does eventually come in. But we expect our leaders to make those decisions to the best of their ability and to abide by they own instructions.

    *no indoor mixing was one of the more sensible ones IMO, particularly at the time the parties
    Of course one of the silliest things was that you could work in the office all day but as soon as work stopped you could no longer mix. Which was mad. If you weren't infected between 9 and 5, 5-6 probably wasn't going to do it.

    I know I am probably in a minority of one, but I genuinely think Johnson tried his best. He was not at the hedonistic parties that have come to represent partygate to the public, but I suspect a lot of people think he was.
    He wasn't, but we've recently discovered that there were a bunch of additional social engagements Johnson held in breach of the rules.
    Have we? Not seen that.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/sep/08/boris-johnson-had-dinner-in-lockdown-with-peer-funding-flat-refit-files-suggest
    Thin gruel - the baby shower in particular. And doesn't really change what anyone thinks of Johnson.
    You don't think Johnson repeatedly breaking his own govt's rules matters, so of course you think it's thin gruel! It certainly doesn't seem like "Johnson tried his best" (your earlier claim) to me.

    No, it doesn't change what anyone thinks of Johnson now. Imagine if all this had come out at the time, however! People thought the Sue Gray report was it, but there was all this other stuff going on.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,092

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Is that so ?
    It acknowledges it, but does it condone ?
    .. “When I first got involved in anti-fascism – this was late 80s – it was all about the street. I’m not saying it was right, but that’s how it was. You didn’t have cameras.” So, wait, he doesn’t mean handing out leaflets in the street? “No, you would have groups of Nazis and groups of anti-fascists, and they would battle it out, down sidestreets, and sometimes it got quite violent. I mean, look at me, I’m not built for that. I never got involved in that. But that was the world it was.”..
    Oh give over. What if someone said “yes I was in the national front as a teenager” - would she simply have passed by that without mention and interrogation? Of course not. And the NF didn’t want to overthrow liberal capitalism - unlike the Trots

    It’s fuxking ludicrous. This guy is held up an an exemplary opponent of right wing political violence yet it turns out he was a revolutionary activist in his youth, desiring to end parliamentary democracy, and she doesn’t even note that this is somewhat jarring
    Yeah the NF just wanted to round up my wife's family and millions like them and throw them out of the country. Harmless stuff.
    Whereas communists are all sweetness and light and hardly ever engage in mass murder?
    In the postwar UK the comparison is ludicrous and could only be made by a heterosexual white person. Anyone who is a member of a minority group knows that the far right pose a physical threat to their safety. I know people who had to literally fight the far right in order to remain in their homes in the 1970s/80s. Anyone who experienced the same kind of physical threat from the socialist workers party please feel free to share your experiences.
    When Derek Beackon won a council seat in the early 1990s, I regularly saw signs saying "Kill the Nazi scum" from some organisation. I think it was the ANL or somesuch. Which amused me, as I was unconvinced that 'kill them' made the much different from the Nazis...
  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,100

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Is that so ?
    It acknowledges it, but does it condone ?
    .. “When I first got involved in anti-fascism – this was late 80s – it was all about the street. I’m not saying it was right, but that’s how it was. You didn’t have cameras.” So, wait, he doesn’t mean handing out leaflets in the street? “No, you would have groups of Nazis and groups of anti-fascists, and they would battle it out, down sidestreets, and sometimes it got quite violent. I mean, look at me, I’m not built for that. I never got involved in that. But that was the world it was.”..
    Oh give over. What if someone said “yes I was in the national front as a teenager” - would she simply have passed by that without mention and interrogation? Of course not. And the NF didn’t want to overthrow liberal capitalism - unlike the Trots

    It’s fuxking ludicrous. This guy is held up an an exemplary opponent of right wing political violence yet it turns out he was a revolutionary activist in his youth, desiring to end parliamentary democracy, and she doesn’t even note that this is somewhat jarring
    I don't get why we give communism such a free pass. Most of the most horrible regimes of modern history have been communist. Saying "I'm a communist" is tantamount to saying "I favour overthrowing liberal democracy and replacing it with a totalitarian system (which whenever it has been tried has led to tyranny)". Yet apparently we are unconcerned about having people who are members of the communist party as advisors to government (I'm thinking in particular of Susan Michie, during Covid). I'm content to allow people to take their own view on what society should be, but surely being a member of the communist party should ring some alarm bells? I'm pretty sure being a member of the National Front or whatever its equivalent is this year would raise the odd eyebrow.
    Boris Johnson elevated Claire Fox, a former member of the Revolutionary Communist Party, to the House of Lords. Did any of the PB Rightists complain about that?
    Well yes, exactly.
    To be clear, I'm not saying we shouldn't allow such views to be expressed. But I think we should be much less relaxed about actually inviting people who align themselves with explicitly anti-democratic ideologies - ideologies who are explicit about the desirability of overthrowing the liberal democratic model - into government. I'd have thought anyone who viewed overthrowing liberal democracy as desirable would be a poor source for advice for a government which did not share that aim.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,970
    I'm now green on deputy market.

    Small bets but still satisfying.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,092

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Is that so ?
    It acknowledges it, but does it condone ?
    .. “When I first got involved in anti-fascism – this was late 80s – it was all about the street. I’m not saying it was right, but that’s how it was. You didn’t have cameras.” So, wait, he doesn’t mean handing out leaflets in the street? “No, you would have groups of Nazis and groups of anti-fascists, and they would battle it out, down sidestreets, and sometimes it got quite violent. I mean, look at me, I’m not built for that. I never got involved in that. But that was the world it was.”..
    Oh give over. What if someone said “yes I was in the national front as a teenager” - would she simply have passed by that without mention and interrogation? Of course not. And the NF didn’t want to overthrow liberal capitalism - unlike the Trots

    It’s fuxking ludicrous. This guy is held up an an exemplary opponent of right wing political violence yet it turns out he was a revolutionary activist in his youth, desiring to end parliamentary democracy, and she doesn’t even note that this is somewhat jarring
    I don't get why we give communism such a free pass. Most of the most horrible regimes of modern history have been communist. Saying "I'm a communist" is tantamount to saying "I favour overthrowing liberal democracy and replacing it with a totalitarian system (which whenever it has been tried has led to tyranny)". Yet apparently we are unconcerned about having people who are members of the communist party as advisors to government (I'm thinking in particular of Susan Michie, during Covid). I'm content to allow people to take their own view on what society should be, but surely being a member of the communist party should ring some alarm bells? I'm pretty sure being a member of the National Front or whatever its equivalent is this year would raise the odd eyebrow.
    The right-wing press and right-wong commentators are always going on about people with connections to the Communist party (or -ies). Where does this "apparently we are unconcerned" come from?
    Easy. If you went to most parties and said: "I am a Nazi" or "I am a fascist", you will get thrown out, or worse. If you say "I am a Communist", you might get a roll of the eyes, but little else.

    Communism is *much* more acceptable, despite its blood-drenched history.

    They were both terrible ideologies.
    They were, and indeed still are, both terrible ideologies.

    Fascism says it wants to spill blood. Communism says it doesn't want to spill blood... but has often ended up there. That's the difference. I share your criticisms of communism and I think those who support communism should be strongly pressed on what they think was happening in the Soviet Union, Cambodia, Albania etc., but they're not actively calling for violence in quite the same way as fascists.
    Fascism wants control. It will spill blood to get that control. Often, the control it wants is outside its borders.

    Communism wants control. It will spill blood to get that control. Often, the control it wants is outside its borders.
  • IanB2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Is that so ?
    It acknowledges it, but does it condone ?
    .. “When I first got involved in anti-fascism – this was late 80s – it was all about the street. I’m not saying it was right, but that’s how it was. You didn’t have cameras.” So, wait, he doesn’t mean handing out leaflets in the street? “No, you would have groups of Nazis and groups of anti-fascists, and they would battle it out, down sidestreets, and sometimes it got quite violent. I mean, look at me, I’m not built for that. I never got involved in that. But that was the world it was.”..
    Oh give over. What if someone said “yes I was in the national front as a teenager” - would she simply have passed by that without mention and interrogation? Of course not. And the NF didn’t want to overthrow liberal capitalism - unlike the Trots

    It’s fuxking ludicrous. This guy is held up an an exemplary opponent of right wing political violence yet it turns out he was a revolutionary activist in his youth, desiring to end parliamentary democracy, and she doesn’t even note that this is somewhat jarring
    I don't get why we give communism such a free pass. Most of the most horrible regimes of modern history have been communist. Saying "I'm a communist" is tantamount to saying "I favour overthrowing liberal democracy and replacing it with a totalitarian system (which whenever it has been tried has led to tyranny)". Yet apparently we are unconcerned about having people who are members of the communist party as advisors to government (I'm thinking in particular of Susan Michie, during Covid). I'm content to allow people to take their own view on what society should be, but surely being a member of the communist party should ring some alarm bells? I'm pretty sure being a member of the National Front or whatever its equivalent is this year would raise the odd eyebrow.
    Agreed. It ought to be a disqualification from sober society in the same way as former membership of the NF or BNP. There isn’t a communist regime anywhere in the world that hasn’t resulted in the most horrible repression and atrocities (the regional government in Kerala is perhaps an exception). And it’s a myth that it all started so well and was perverted by Stalin - not only there are horrific tales from the civil war itself, but anyone who thinks early communism was more humane should go research the suppression of the Tambov rebellion in the early 1920s.
    India has TWO main Communist Parties. The Communist Party of India, generally pro-Russia after the Sino-Soviet split of the 1960s, and the Communist Party of India - Marxist, generally pro-China.

    At last years's election, the Commies didn't too great in fact:

    The CPI won 2 seats across India in 2024
    The CPI-M won 4 seats across India in 2024

    There's also a Communist Party of India - Marxist-Leninist (Liberation), who also won 2 seats.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,092
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Is that so ?
    It acknowledges it, but does it condone ?
    .. “When I first got involved in anti-fascism – this was late 80s – it was all about the street. I’m not saying it was right, but that’s how it was. You didn’t have cameras.” So, wait, he doesn’t mean handing out leaflets in the street? “No, you would have groups of Nazis and groups of anti-fascists, and they would battle it out, down sidestreets, and sometimes it got quite violent. I mean, look at me, I’m not built for that. I never got involved in that. But that was the world it was.”..
    Oh give over. What if someone said “yes I was in the national front as a teenager” - would she simply have passed by that without mention and interrogation? Of course not. And the NF didn’t want to overthrow liberal capitalism - unlike the Trots

    It’s fuxking ludicrous. This guy is held up an an exemplary opponent of right wing political violence yet it turns out he was a revolutionary activist in his youth, desiring to end parliamentary democracy, and she doesn’t even note that this is somewhat jarring
    I don't get why we give communism such a free pass. Most of the most horrible regimes of modern history have been communist. Saying "I'm a communist" is tantamount to saying "I favour overthrowing liberal democracy and replacing it with a totalitarian system (which whenever it has been tried has led to tyranny)". Yet apparently we are unconcerned about having people who are members of the communist party as advisors to government (I'm thinking in particular of Susan Michie, during Covid). I'm content to allow people to take their own view on what society should be, but surely being a member of the communist party should ring some alarm bells? I'm pretty sure being a member of the National Front or whatever its equivalent is this year would raise the odd eyebrow.
    The right-wing press and right-wong commentators are always going on about people with connections to the Communist party (or -ies). Where does this "apparently we are unconcerned" come from?
    Because being an avowed self declared communist does not stop people rising to positions of great seniority, whereas just being associated with the far right can get you sacked from any job
    Communism is the pot of politics. It isn't seen as good, but you can say: "I was a Communist as a youth" and still be accepted, in the same way you can say: "I smoked pot as a student."
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 16,224
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Is that so ?
    It acknowledges it, but does it condone ?
    .. “When I first got involved in anti-fascism – this was late 80s – it was all about the street. I’m not saying it was right, but that’s how it was. You didn’t have cameras.” So, wait, he doesn’t mean handing out leaflets in the street? “No, you would have groups of Nazis and groups of anti-fascists, and they would battle it out, down sidestreets, and sometimes it got quite violent. I mean, look at me, I’m not built for that. I never got involved in that. But that was the world it was.”..
    Oh give over. What if someone said “yes I was in the national front as a teenager” - would she simply have passed by that without mention and interrogation? Of course not. And the NF didn’t want to overthrow liberal capitalism - unlike the Trots

    It’s fuxking ludicrous. This guy is held up an an exemplary opponent of right wing political violence yet it turns out he was a revolutionary activist in his youth, desiring to end parliamentary democracy, and she doesn’t even note that this is somewhat jarring
    I don't get why we give communism such a free pass. Most of the most horrible regimes of modern history have been communist. Saying "I'm a communist" is tantamount to saying "I favour overthrowing liberal democracy and replacing it with a totalitarian system (which whenever it has been tried has led to tyranny)". Yet apparently we are unconcerned about having people who are members of the communist party as advisors to government (I'm thinking in particular of Susan Michie, during Covid). I'm content to allow people to take their own view on what society should be, but surely being a member of the communist party should ring some alarm bells? I'm pretty sure being a member of the National Front or whatever its equivalent is this year would raise the odd eyebrow.
    The right-wing press and right-wong commentators are always going on about people with connections to the Communist party (or -ies). Where does this "apparently we are unconcerned" come from?
    Easy. If you went to most parties and said: "I am a Nazi" or "I am a fascist", you will get thrown out, or worse. If you say "I am a Communist", you might get a roll of the eyes, but little else.

    Communism is *much* more acceptable, despite its blood-drenched history.

    They were both terrible ideologies.
    And because - to take the advantage of Susan Michie - members of the communist party are able to work for and advise government.
    Lots of people advise government. The government doesn't vet most of them for whether they are a member of a political party. Unless someone is a member of a proscribed group, they are able to work for and advise government.

    Can I just clarify what your point is here? Do you think the government should vet everyone who advises them for undesirable political beliefs? What happened to free speech?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,970

    I once gave a speech/talk to some bankers and it began with the statistics of being raped in an American prison.

    Once I finished the stats I told them this was important if they didn't follow the rules I was implementing from next week their fate mind up like the Natwest Three who were extradited under Blair's one sided extradition treaty.

    Brutal.
  • Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Is that so ?
    It acknowledges it, but does it condone ?
    .. “When I first got involved in anti-fascism – this was late 80s – it was all about the street. I’m not saying it was right, but that’s how it was. You didn’t have cameras.” So, wait, he doesn’t mean handing out leaflets in the street? “No, you would have groups of Nazis and groups of anti-fascists, and they would battle it out, down sidestreets, and sometimes it got quite violent. I mean, look at me, I’m not built for that. I never got involved in that. But that was the world it was.”..
    Oh give over. What if someone said “yes I was in the national front as a teenager” - would she simply have passed by that without mention and interrogation? Of course not. And the NF didn’t want to overthrow liberal capitalism - unlike the Trots

    It’s fuxking ludicrous. This guy is held up an an exemplary opponent of right wing political violence yet it turns out he was a revolutionary activist in his youth, desiring to end parliamentary democracy, and she doesn’t even note that this is somewhat jarring
    I don't get why we give communism such a free pass. Most of the most horrible regimes of modern history have been communist. Saying "I'm a communist" is tantamount to saying "I favour overthrowing liberal democracy and replacing it with a totalitarian system (which whenever it has been tried has led to tyranny)". Yet apparently we are unconcerned about having people who are members of the communist party as advisors to government (I'm thinking in particular of Susan Michie, during Covid). I'm content to allow people to take their own view on what society should be, but surely being a member of the communist party should ring some alarm bells? I'm pretty sure being a member of the National Front or whatever its equivalent is this year would raise the odd eyebrow.
    Boris Johnson elevated Claire Fox, a former member of the Revolutionary Communist Party, to the House of Lords. Did any of the PB Rightists complain about that?
    I did.

    Fucking disgrace that Boris Johnson put that IRA apologist in the Lords.
    I thought the IRA favoured Hitler?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 20,264

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Peter Hitchens was a student Trotskyist, too. And many other 1980's conservatives.
    Of course the millions who died under Stalin used their last breath to mutter "At least I'm dying for a noble cause - how bad would it be to be killed by a Nazi?"
    Stalin was definitely not a Trotskyist.
    He was a communist though.
    So why did Stalin have him murdered?
    Paranoia? Why did Stalin have millions murdered?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 14,273
    edited September 16

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    A flattering portrayal of Nick Lowles, the chief dude at Hope Not Hate, focused on the risk of political violence from the extreme right

    It casually mentions half way through that he was a student Trotskyist, like it’s no problem, because of course political violence of the extreme LEFT is just fine

    The double standards are so howlingly blatant I can only presume the Guardian doesn’t even see them

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/sep/16/basic-decency-british-people-hope-not-hate-nick-lowles-how-to-defeat-far-right

    Is that so ?
    It acknowledges it, but does it condone ?
    .. “When I first got involved in anti-fascism – this was late 80s – it was all about the street. I’m not saying it was right, but that’s how it was. You didn’t have cameras.” So, wait, he doesn’t mean handing out leaflets in the street? “No, you would have groups of Nazis and groups of anti-fascists, and they would battle it out, down sidestreets, and sometimes it got quite violent. I mean, look at me, I’m not built for that. I never got involved in that. But that was the world it was.”..
    Oh give over. What if someone said “yes I was in the national front as a teenager” - would she simply have passed by that without mention and interrogation? Of course not. And the NF didn’t want to overthrow liberal capitalism - unlike the Trots

    It’s fuxking ludicrous. This guy is held up an an exemplary opponent of right wing political violence yet it turns out he was a revolutionary activist in his youth, desiring to end parliamentary democracy, and she doesn’t even note that this is somewhat jarring
    Yeah the NF just wanted to round up my wife's family and millions like them and throw them out of the country. Harmless stuff.
    Whereas communists are all sweetness and light and hardly ever engage in mass murder?
    In the postwar UK the comparison is ludicrous and could only be made by a heterosexual white person. Anyone who is a member of a minority group knows that the far right pose a physical threat to their safety. I know people who had to literally fight the far right in order to remain in their homes in the 1970s/80s. Anyone who experienced the same kind of physical threat from the socialist workers party please feel free to share your experiences.
    When Derek Beackon won a council seat in the early 1990s, I regularly saw signs saying "Kill the Nazi scum" from some organisation. I think it was the ANL or somesuch. Which amused me, as I was unconvinced that 'kill them' made the much different from the Nazis...
    I remember Beackons win in TH, I think he gave an acceptance speech at the count (cameras present) flanked by some goon from memory.
    BNPs first elected representative
Sign In or Register to comment.