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Why Reform winning the next election isn’t the certainty some think it is – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,663
edited September 4 in General
Why Reform winning the next election isn’t the certainty some think it is – politicalbetting.com

By 43% to 37%, Britons would rather the next election resulted in a Labour government under Keir Starmer than a Reform UK government under Nigel Farageyougov.co.uk/politics/art…

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Comments

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,804
    edited September 4
    I'd like to think the Farage Party will crash and burn over the next few years, brought down by their leadership.

    But there's the fear they won't, and then the country is in real trouble.

    Oh, and first
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,698
    edited September 4
    Looking at the MiC Scottish output id think the parties would view it thus....

    SNP will be satisfied and would take that
    Reform will be pretty happy but probably fall just short of second on those figures
    Labour will be worried
    LDs will be cock a hoop delighted, it takes them back to early Holyrood
    Tories will simultaneously be horrified at vote loss but secretly relieved they are at least still in the hunt for say 3rd place and probably retain 2 or 3 constituencies

    Greens, a bit disappointed
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,038
    Farage also has the problem that while LD and Green voters are more likely to tactically vote Labour to stop Farage in Labour held marginal seats.

    While most Tory voters will likely stick to voting Tory in seats the Tories were second at the last GE
  • I genuinely do not expect Farage or Reform to win the next GE

    Who does is a very different question
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,414
    Isn't a Reform/Tory coalition possible?
  • CatMan said:

    Isn't a Reform/Tory coalition possible?

    Everything is possible! I don't think it is very probable:
    1 Why would Reform want to do a deal with the Tories? They're streets ahead and an increasing flow of Tory > Reform defections
    2 Badenoch thinks she will win a majority of 704. Once binned and replaced by Jenrick he has a political IQ of 70.4. Once replaced by Cleverly, who knows
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,976
    Always worth remembering that the next election is nearly 4 years away (given Labour is unlikely to go early), and almost inevitably some major world-shaking event that few expect will have changed the political dynamic one way or other by then.

    It could be a massive new migrant crisis thanks to natural disaster or another Syria, in which case Farage could be measuring the curtains for No 10.

    It could well be a Trump coup in 2028 (with the first round being next year) in which case Farage’s bolt might be shot

    Or a financial and fiscal crisis that might just summon back the ghost of the Tories.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,960
    I completely agree that it is far too early to say that Reform will win the next GE. However - a couple of observations:

    1: that margin is relatively tight. It suggests that there could be an element of stop Farage tactical voting that could help - but not significantly so.

    2: the country is really, really fed up, and if that continues over the next few years, it’s really going to badly affect the incumbents chances.

    And, as always, events.

    I think Labour could win the next GE. If I was being forced to predict though, I’d say it’s getting quite hard to see any party getting an overall majority if this fragmentation continues.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,820
    I don't think people will want a Reform government. But will it be possible to block it in a first past the post system where they are the largest party? I'm not sure. The British public is often quite good at gaming the system to get the result it wants.
    The fundamental problem is that nobody is willing to make the hard choices necessary to fix our problems. Everybody wants someone else to pay the costs involved. The voters are the real villains here.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,038
    edited September 4

    CatMan said:

    Isn't a Reform/Tory coalition possible?

    Everything is possible! I don't think it is very probable:
    1 Why would Reform want to do a deal with the Tories? They're streets ahead and an increasing flow of Tory > Reform defections
    2 Badenoch thinks she will win a majority of 704. Once binned and replaced by Jenrick he has a political IQ of 70.4. Once replaced by Cleverly, who knows
    Depends on the numbers, if Reform have a majority no issue.

    If Badenoch or Jenrick are Tory leader and it is a hung parliament with Reform and the Tories combined having a majority both would likely give Farage confidence and supply.

    If Cleverly is Tory leader however he would likely stay neutral in a hung parliament, voting bill by bill. If Labour and the Tories had a majority combined but Labour and the LDs did not not even impossible Cleverly could form a German style grand coalition with Starmer Labour to keep out Farage and Corbyn/Polanski and the SNP from power
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,202

    I genuinely do not expect Farage or Reform to win the next GE

    Who does is a very different question

    Sounds like you haven't lost hope of the Tories winning. Nice one. Party support is for life not just for Christmas.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,202
    edited September 4

    CatMan said:

    Isn't a Reform/Tory coalition possible?

    Everything is possible! I don't think it is very probable:
    1 Why would Reform want to do a deal with the Tories? They're streets ahead and an increasing flow of Tory > Reform defections
    2 Badenoch thinks she will win a majority of 704. Once binned and replaced by Jenrick he has a political IQ of 70.4. Once replaced by Cleverly, who knows
    Maybe no pre-election deal (although I think it's possible) but how about a hung parliament where Reform have 250 seats and the Cons 100?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,813
    "..four more years of Rachel Reeves at the Treasury and these figures might look different.."

    Assumes a fact very much not in evidence.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,976
    edited September 4

    I don't think people will want a Reform government. But will it be possible to block it in a first past the post system where they are the largest party? I'm not sure. The British public is often quite good at gaming the system to get the result it wants.
    The fundamental problem is that nobody is willing to make the hard choices necessary to fix our problems. Everybody wants someone else to pay the costs involved. The voters are the real villains here.

    2024 was perhaps the first election I can remember that the voting public didn’t manage to game the system to get the result they wanted.

    They wanted to give the Tories a punishment beating. That bit worked. But I don’t think they were looking for a huge Labour majority. It’s just that FPTP almost completely broke down and delivered it anyway.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 6,541

    Looking at the MiC Scottish output id think the parties would view it thus....

    SNP will be satisfied and would take that
    Reform will be pretty happy but probably fall just short of second on those figures
    Labour will be worried
    LDs will be cock a hoop delighted, it takes them back to early Holyrood
    Tories will simultaneously be horrified at vote loss but secretly relieved they are at least still in the hunt for say 3rd place and probably retain 2 or 3 constituencies

    Greens, a bit disappointed

    Greens will be more disappointed if Corbyn and Sultana get their party off the ground. They could potentially split the left wing vote sufficiently for neither to pick up list seats, except in Glasgow and Edinburgh.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,813
    This is, to say the very least, problematic.

    It appears as though this might well be an extra-judicial execution, not within any existing legal authority,

    The Pentagon is working—STILL—to make up a legal rationale for slaughtering 11 people, 1,500 miles from America, AFTER THE FACT? WHAT? You can’t do this after they’re dead. That is a crime. That is murder.
    https://x.com/hissgoescobra/status/1963464928066711700

    Whether or not they were bad guys is really not the point at all.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 6,541

    I completely agree that it is far too early to say that Reform will win the next GE. However - a couple of observations:

    1: that margin is relatively tight. It suggests that there could be an element of stop Farage tactical voting that could help - but not significantly so.

    2: the country is really, really fed up, and if that continues over the next few years, it’s really going to badly affect the incumbents chances.

    And, as always, events.

    I think Labour could win the next GE. If I was being forced to predict though, I’d say it’s getting quite hard to see any party getting an overall majority if this fragmentation continues.

    If voting intention remains fragmented, at what point to Labour and the Tories think that maybe PR is a good idea?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,698

    Looking at the MiC Scottish output id think the parties would view it thus....

    SNP will be satisfied and would take that
    Reform will be pretty happy but probably fall just short of second on those figures
    Labour will be worried
    LDs will be cock a hoop delighted, it takes them back to early Holyrood
    Tories will simultaneously be horrified at vote loss but secretly relieved they are at least still in the hunt for say 3rd place and probably retain 2 or 3 constituencies

    Greens, a bit disappointed

    Greens will be more disappointed if Corbyn and Sultana get their party off the ground. They could potentially split the left wing vote sufficiently for neither to pick up list seats, except in Glasgow and Edinburgh.
    True, true.

    For bantz we need the following result

    SNP 58
    Lab 16
    LD 16
    Con 16
    Ref 16
    Green 3
    Your Party 3
    Alba 1
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,813
    Cookie said:
    Don't try that one on the mods.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,768
    Graham Linehan pictured outside the courthouse this morning. Fair to say he’s doubling down.

    https://x.com/riley_gaines_/status/1963571669571612847
  • kinabalu said:

    I genuinely do not expect Farage or Reform to win the next GE

    Who does is a very different question

    Sounds like you haven't lost hope of the Tories winning. Nice one. Party support is for life not just for Christmas.
    Not in my case - I voted for Blair twice

    Pity Starmer is no Blair

  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,934
    We might even see a Lab/Con coalition form after the GE to keep out Reform.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,038
    Cookie said:
    'The hearing was told that under the terms of her contract, she could be fired for “the provocative use of insulting or abusive language”.

    However, this required she be given a prior warning. Only more serious breaches such as “threatening and intimidating language” would be gross misconduct and warrant summary dismissal.

    Boyes found that Herbert was summarily fired because of her use of the word “dickheads” and ruled that the company had failed to follow proper disciplinary procedures.'
  • I think Reform will win the next GE.

    I'm actually suprised that the forced choice 'Lab or Reform' question is already as close as 43:37. Plenty for Reform to play for and the trajectory is still titing in their favour.

    There is the 18% Conservative vote to squeeze further (it saddens me but they are done.) After November's budget and maybe another couple like it, with Labour's manifesto pledges on Taxes in tatters, the 52% who delivered Brexit (allowing for electoral churn ofcourse) will, broadly speaking, deliver for Reform.

  • Sky reporting Rayner will not address the TUC next Tuesday with Bridget Phillipson taking her place
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,804
    Sandpit said:

    Graham Linehan pictured outside the courthouse this morning. Fair to say he’s doubling down.

    https://x.com/riley_gaines_/status/1963571669571612847

    As well as being gobshite, he's also factually wrong. My friend knew very well he was trans when we were at school.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,960

    I think Reform will win the next GE.

    I'm actually suprised that the forced choice 'Lab or Reform' question is already as close as 43:37. Plenty for Reform to play for and the trajectory is still titing in their favour.

    There is the 18% Conservative vote to squeeze further (it saddens me but they are done.) After November's budget and maybe another couple like it, with Labour's manifesto pledges on Taxes in tatters, the 52% who delivered Brexit (allowing for electoral churn ofcourse) will, broadly speaking, deliver for Reform.

    I do think it is incredibly plausible the Tory vote will be squeezed further. Although I do appreciate that Reform and Tory voters are not in lockstep, there is a “back the winner” effect I could see come into play if the polls stay as they are.
  • OT but this has come up before on pb...

    The Rest is Entertainment on how hard it is to make money in the music business:-
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtvXLKWr3YA&t=400s
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,804
    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:
    'The hearing was told that under the terms of her contract, she could be fired for “the provocative use of insulting or abusive language”.

    However, this required she be given a prior warning. Only more serious breaches such as “threatening and intimidating language” would be gross misconduct and warrant summary dismissal.

    Boyes found that Herbert was summarily fired because of her use of the word “dickheads” and ruled that the company had failed to follow proper disciplinary procedures.'
    Yeah, from that report the company was in the wrong there.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,698

    Sky reporting Rayner will not address the TUC next Tuesday with Bridget Phillipson taking her place

    Lol, toast
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,960

    I completely agree that it is far too early to say that Reform will win the next GE. However - a couple of observations:

    1: that margin is relatively tight. It suggests that there could be an element of stop Farage tactical voting that could help - but not significantly so.

    2: the country is really, really fed up, and if that continues over the next few years, it’s really going to badly affect the incumbents chances.

    And, as always, events.

    I think Labour could win the next GE. If I was being forced to predict though, I’d say it’s getting quite hard to see any party getting an overall majority if this fragmentation continues.

    If voting intention remains fragmented, at what point to Labour and the Tories think that maybe PR is a good idea?
    I could conceivably see Labour going for it - they’ve flirted with it before.

    The Tories will die off before they embrace it, IMHO.
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,314

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:
    'The hearing was told that under the terms of her contract, she could be fired for “the provocative use of insulting or abusive language”.

    However, this required she be given a prior warning. Only more serious breaches such as “threatening and intimidating language” would be gross misconduct and warrant summary dismissal.

    Boyes found that Herbert was summarily fired because of her use of the word “dickheads” and ruled that the company had failed to follow proper disciplinary procedures.'
    Yeah, from that report the company was in the wrong there.
    If you fire somebody on the spot in the heat of the moment I suspect your chances at a tribunal are not great if the employee feels like taking you to one, in almost all circumstances...

  • Sky

    Israeli President Isaac Herzog to vist UK next week
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,481
    Labour can pick up a lot of tactical votes from the Lib Dems and Greens against Reform, on the basis of this poll. The problem for Labour is that there are not many such votes in Red Wall constituencies. There are, however, quite a lot Conservative votes, who would heavily break in favour of Reform, rather than Labour, if forced to choose.

    Seats like Bishop Auckland, Rother Valley, Llanelli, as well as more classic marginals like Sittingborune & Sheppey and Dartford, would be lost easily.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,606
    edited September 4
    Sandpit said:

    https://x.com/jeremyclarkson/status/1963567179506258418

    “I’m puzzled. Labourites tell us that Angela Rayner was only trying to look after her child which they quite rightly say is understandable.
    But when a farmer tries to look after his children, they say he’s a tax dodger.”

    When a farmer tries to look after his children, what they actually say is he should be treated more like anyone else with an asset to pass on, rather than as a special case.

    ETA: There's debate, as we've often had on here, about whether farmers should be a special case, but I don't think anyone in Labour is accusing them of tax dodging. People who bought farmland as an inheritance tax dodge, maybe, but not actual long term farmers.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,308

    I don't think people will want a Reform government. But will it be possible to block it in a first past the post system where they are the largest party? I'm not sure. The British public is often quite good at gaming the system to get the result it wants.
    The fundamental problem is that nobody is willing to make the hard choices necessary to fix our problems. Everybody wants someone else to pay the costs involved. The voters are the real villains here.

    Labour has a 170 seat majority. They could change the voting system without a referendum if they wanted to. For some reason, they don't.
  • Andy_JS said:

    I don't think people will want a Reform government. But will it be possible to block it in a first past the post system where they are the largest party? I'm not sure. The British public is often quite good at gaming the system to get the result it wants.
    The fundamental problem is that nobody is willing to make the hard choices necessary to fix our problems. Everybody wants someone else to pay the costs involved. The voters are the real villains here.

    Labour has a 170 seat majority. They could change the voting system without a referendum if they wanted to. For some reason, they don't.
    Point of order

    148 majority
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,606

    OT but this has come up before on pb...

    The Rest is Entertainment on how hard it is to make money in the music business:-
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtvXLKWr3YA&t=400s

    I always thought it was Money for Nothing?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,820
    TimS said:

    I don't think people will want a Reform government. But will it be possible to block it in a first past the post system where they are the largest party? I'm not sure. The British public is often quite good at gaming the system to get the result it wants.
    The fundamental problem is that nobody is willing to make the hard choices necessary to fix our problems. Everybody wants someone else to pay the costs involved. The voters are the real villains here.

    2024 was perhaps the first election I can remember that the voting public didn’t manage to game the system to get the result they wanted.

    They wanted to give the Tories a punishment beating. That bit worked. But I don’t think they were looking for a huge Labour majority. It’s just that FPTP almost completely broke down and delivered it anyway.
    Exactly. Even as a Labour voter the result left me feeling pretty queasy. It's obvious that Reform could win a huge majority on 30% of the vote and leave this country unrecognizable after 5 years. You can break a country completely in that time. I actually think what this country needs is a broad based coalition to make the kind of changes that are needed, not a huge but artificial majority for left or right.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,625

    Sky

    Israeli President Isaac Herzog to vist UK next week

    I'm not entirely sure that's a good idea.
  • Andy_JS said:

    I don't think people will want a Reform government. But will it be possible to block it in a first past the post system where they are the largest party? I'm not sure. The British public is often quite good at gaming the system to get the result it wants.
    The fundamental problem is that nobody is willing to make the hard choices necessary to fix our problems. Everybody wants someone else to pay the costs involved. The voters are the real villains here.

    Labour has a 170 seat majority. They could change the voting system without a referendum if they wanted to. For some reason, they don't.
    Point of order

    148 majority
    157 actually.

    https://members.parliament.uk/parties/commons
  • Sky

    Israeli President Isaac Herzog to vist UK next week

    I'm not entirely sure that's a good idea.
    Seems strange in the circumstances

    Another Downing Street hug by Starmer !!!!!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,768

    OT but this has come up before on pb...

    The Rest is Entertainment on how hard it is to make money in the music business:-
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtvXLKWr3YA&t=400s

    The music industry has come full circle, the way you make serious money as an artist now is from performing live.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,960

    TimS said:

    I don't think people will want a Reform government. But will it be possible to block it in a first past the post system where they are the largest party? I'm not sure. The British public is often quite good at gaming the system to get the result it wants.
    The fundamental problem is that nobody is willing to make the hard choices necessary to fix our problems. Everybody wants someone else to pay the costs involved. The voters are the real villains here.

    2024 was perhaps the first election I can remember that the voting public didn’t manage to game the system to get the result they wanted.

    They wanted to give the Tories a punishment beating. That bit worked. But I don’t think they were looking for a huge Labour majority. It’s just that FPTP almost completely broke down and delivered it anyway.
    Exactly. Even as a Labour voter the result left me feeling pretty queasy. It's obvious that Reform could win a huge majority on 30% of the vote and leave this country unrecognizable after 5 years. You can break a country completely in that time. I actually think what this country needs is a broad based coalition to make the kind of changes that are needed, not a huge but artificial majority for left or right.
    I might even be inclined to suggest that the severe disproportionality of the result last time has hampered the government ever since, in terms of public perception. Whereas a multi-party progressive coalition would probably be getting a lot less flak now.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,698

    I think Reform will win the next GE.

    I'm actually suprised that the forced choice 'Lab or Reform' question is already as close as 43:37. Plenty for Reform to play for and the trajectory is still titing in their favour.

    There is the 18% Conservative vote to squeeze further (it saddens me but they are done.) After November's budget and maybe another couple like it, with Labour's manifesto pledges on Taxes in tatters, the 52% who delivered Brexit (allowing for electoral churn ofcourse) will, broadly speaking, deliver for Reform.

    I do think it is incredibly plausible the Tory vote will be squeezed further. Although I do appreciate that Reform and Tory voters are not in lockstep, there is a “back the winner” effect I could see come into play if the polls stay as they are.
    I may be the last conservative standing but they will not get my vote under any circumstances
    I believe the Last Conservative Standing is officially HYUFD. I think there's a tapestry in a cathedral somewhere.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,862
    Nigelb said:

    This is, to say the very least, problematic.

    It appears as though this might well be an extra-judicial execution, not within any existing legal authority,

    The Pentagon is working—STILL—to make up a legal rationale for slaughtering 11 people, 1,500 miles from America, AFTER THE FACT? WHAT? You can’t do this after they’re dead. That is a crime. That is murder.
    https://x.com/hissgoescobra/status/1963464928066711700

    Whether or not they were bad guys is really not the point at all.

    Yeah, all the explanations so far have been a bit Hague. Sorry, I meant vague...
  • Andy_JS said:

    I don't think people will want a Reform government. But will it be possible to block it in a first past the post system where they are the largest party? I'm not sure. The British public is often quite good at gaming the system to get the result it wants.
    The fundamental problem is that nobody is willing to make the hard choices necessary to fix our problems. Everybody wants someone else to pay the costs involved. The voters are the real villains here.

    Labour has a 170 seat majority. They could change the voting system without a referendum if they wanted to. For some reason, they don't.
    Point of order

    148 majority
    157 actually.

    https://members.parliament.uk/parties/commons
    I sourced the info from below but I accept you will know best on this

    https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainer/government-majority
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,904

    Sky

    Israeli President Isaac Herzog to vist UK next week

    Labour doubling down on that single figure polling target.

    Although TBF Hertzog is no Bibi.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,820
    Andy_JS said:

    I don't think people will want a Reform government. But will it be possible to block it in a first past the post system where they are the largest party? I'm not sure. The British public is often quite good at gaming the system to get the result it wants.
    The fundamental problem is that nobody is willing to make the hard choices necessary to fix our problems. Everybody wants someone else to pay the costs involved. The voters are the real villains here.

    Labour has a 170 seat majority. They could change the voting system without a referendum if they wanted to. For some reason, they don't.
    I wish they would. But it wasn't in their manifesto.
  • Sandpit said:

    OT but this has come up before on pb...

    The Rest is Entertainment on how hard it is to make money in the music business:-
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtvXLKWr3YA&t=400s

    The music industry has come full circle, the way you make serious money as an artist now is from performing live.
    Yes, it has gone from tours being loss leaders to sell records, to records being loss leaders to sell tours.
  • Sky

    Israeli President Isaac Herzog to vist UK next week

    I'm not entirely sure that's a good idea.
    Why not? Doesn't he like fishing?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,202

    kinabalu said:

    I genuinely do not expect Farage or Reform to win the next GE

    Who does is a very different question

    Sounds like you haven't lost hope of the Tories winning. Nice one. Party support is for life not just for Christmas.
    Not in my case - I voted for Blair twice

    Pity Starmer is no Blair
    Blair twice, I know, but I sense you've stopped floating now. It's a pity there aren't more Cons like you. Too many are succumbing to Farage and Reform. Stop that, you stop them.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,038
    edited September 4

    I think Reform will win the next GE.

    I'm actually suprised that the forced choice 'Lab or Reform' question is already as close as 43:37. Plenty for Reform to play for and the trajectory is still titing in their favour.

    There is the 18% Conservative vote to squeeze further (it saddens me but they are done.) After November's budget and maybe another couple like it, with Labour's manifesto pledges on Taxes in tatters, the 52% who delivered Brexit (allowing for electoral churn ofcourse) will, broadly speaking, deliver for Reform.

    If you are still voting Tory now you are likely to always be voting Tory and of course Kemi could pick up or be replaced by a more appealing leader.

    In seats Labour won where the Tories were second last year, which is most of them, there is also of course no tactical reason for Tory voters to vote Reform even if LD and Green voters have a logical reason to tactically vote Labour.

    At least a quarter to a third of 2024 Tories would also vote LD over Reform
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,728

    TimS said:

    I don't think people will want a Reform government. But will it be possible to block it in a first past the post system where they are the largest party? I'm not sure. The British public is often quite good at gaming the system to get the result it wants.
    The fundamental problem is that nobody is willing to make the hard choices necessary to fix our problems. Everybody wants someone else to pay the costs involved. The voters are the real villains here.

    2024 was perhaps the first election I can remember that the voting public didn’t manage to game the system to get the result they wanted.

    They wanted to give the Tories a punishment beating. That bit worked. But I don’t think they were looking for a huge Labour majority. It’s just that FPTP almost completely broke down and delivered it anyway.
    Exactly. Even as a Labour voter the result left me feeling pretty queasy. It's obvious that Reform could win a huge majority on 30% of the vote and leave this country unrecognizable after 5 years. You can break a country completely in that time. I actually think what this country needs is a broad based coalition to make the kind of changes that are needed, not a huge but artificial majority for left or right.
    PB mantra: "There is a lot of ruin in a nation".
  • Sky

    Israeli President Isaac Herzog to vist UK next week

    Labour doubling down on that single figure polling target.

    Although TBF Hertzog is no Bibi.
    2 day visit - Wednesday and Thursday next week
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,862
    @Steven_Swinford

    Breaking:

    Keir Starmer suggests he will sack Angela Rayner if the ethics watchdog advises that she has breached the ministerial code over her tax affairs

    He tells
    @ChrisMasonBBC
    that he will 'act on whatever the report is that's put in front of me'

    'What I'm saying is there's a clear procedure. I strengthened that procedure. It is now taking place. I am expecting a result pretty quickly. I do want it to be comprehensive, as you'd expect. And then of course I will act on whatever the report is that's put in front of me.'
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,308
    There never seems to be any discussion of how we reached a point where Reform are averaging about 30% in the polls.
  • Scott_xP said:

    @Steven_Swinford

    Breaking:

    Keir Starmer suggests he will sack Angela Rayner if the ethics watchdog advises that she has breached the ministerial code over her tax affairs

    He tells
    @ChrisMasonBBC
    that he will 'act on whatever the report is that's put in front of me'

    'What I'm saying is there's a clear procedure. I strengthened that procedure. It is now taking place. I am expecting a result pretty quickly. I do want it to be comprehensive, as you'd expect. And then of course I will act on whatever the report is that's put in front of me.'

    Apparently she has been stood down from addressing the TUC next Tuesday if that means anything
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,505
    Nigelb said:

    This is, to say the very least, problematic.

    It appears as though this might well be an extra-judicial execution, not within any existing legal authority,

    The Pentagon is working—STILL—to make up a legal rationale for slaughtering 11 people, 1,500 miles from America, AFTER THE FACT? WHAT? You can’t do this after they’re dead. That is a crime. That is murder.
    https://x.com/hissgoescobra/status/1963464928066711700

    Whether or not they were bad guys is really not the point at all.

    Agreed that extra-judicial executions are wrong, but how is this different from the drone strikes which the US have routinely carried out.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,308

    Andy_JS said:

    I don't think people will want a Reform government. But will it be possible to block it in a first past the post system where they are the largest party? I'm not sure. The British public is often quite good at gaming the system to get the result it wants.
    The fundamental problem is that nobody is willing to make the hard choices necessary to fix our problems. Everybody wants someone else to pay the costs involved. The voters are the real villains here.

    Labour has a 170 seat majority. They could change the voting system without a referendum if they wanted to. For some reason, they don't.
    Point of order

    148 majority
    Thanks for the correction.
  • Sky

    Israeli President Isaac Herzog to vist UK next week

    Labour doubling down on that single figure polling target.

    Although TBF Hertzog is no Bibi.
    President Herzog has been one of Prime Minister Bibi's most prominent critics. That distinction might be lost on some.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,768
    Scott_xP said:

    @Steven_Swinford

    Breaking:

    Keir Starmer suggests he will sack Angela Rayner if the ethics watchdog advises that she has breached the ministerial code over her tax affairs

    He tells
    @ChrisMasonBBC
    that he will 'act on whatever the report is that's put in front of me'

    'What I'm saying is there's a clear procedure. I strengthened that procedure. It is now taking place. I am expecting a result pretty quickly. I do want it to be comprehensive, as you'd expect. And then of course I will act on whatever the report is that's put in front of me.'

    Of course, whatever the lawyers and investigators say is the right answer. That’s how SKS ‘thinks’.
  • Andy_JS said:

    There never seems to be any discussion of how we reached a point where Reform are averaging about 30% in the polls.

    I would suggest there has been huge discussions on here why Reform are at 30% plus in the polls at present
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,083
    Scott_xP said:

    @Steven_Swinford

    Breaking:

    Keir Starmer suggests he will sack Angela Rayner if the ethics watchdog advises that she has breached the ministerial code over her tax affairs

    He tells
    @ChrisMasonBBC
    that he will 'act on whatever the report is that's put in front of me'

    'What I'm saying is there's a clear procedure. I strengthened that procedure. It is now taking place. I am expecting a result pretty quickly. I do want it to be comprehensive, as you'd expect. And then of course I will act on whatever the report is that's put in front of me.'

    As opposed to Johnson who kept Priti Patel in her job after she was found to have broken the ministerial code . Not sure that Starmer news is in anyway a surprise . I would expect nothing less from the PM .
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I genuinely do not expect Farage or Reform to win the next GE

    Who does is a very different question

    Sounds like you haven't lost hope of the Tories winning. Nice one. Party support is for life not just for Christmas.
    Not in my case - I voted for Blair twice

    Pity Starmer is no Blair
    Blair twice, I know, but I sense you've stopped floating now. It's a pity there aren't more Cons like you. Too many are succumbing to Farage and Reform. Stop that, you stop them.
    I am only one voice and simply reject everything Farage stands for

    That is not to say I dont want the boats stopped, because the subject is so toxic to the fabric of our nation end the boat crossings and it removes the oxygen from the debate - and on a side issue allows my sons colleagues in the RNLI to end worry about a possible large loss of life in the channel
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,943
    TimS said:

    Always worth remembering that the next election is nearly 4 years away (given Labour is unlikely to go early), and almost inevitably some major world-shaking event that few expect will have changed the political dynamic one way or other by then.

    It could be a massive new migrant crisis thanks to natural disaster or another Syria, in which case Farage could be measuring the curtains for No 10.

    It could well be a Trump coup in 2028 (with the first round being next year) in which case Farage’s bolt might be shot

    Or a financial and fiscal crisis that might just summon back the ghost of the Tories.

    The thing is, are you particularly confident that the present government will handle such a world-shaking event well?

    If they handle it badly then the public will want a new government. At the moment, remarkably, Farage looks like the most plausible alternative government.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,070
    edited September 4
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,711
    a

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I genuinely do not expect Farage or Reform to win the next GE

    Who does is a very different question

    Sounds like you haven't lost hope of the Tories winning. Nice one. Party support is for life not just for Christmas.
    Not in my case - I voted for Blair twice

    Pity Starmer is no Blair
    Blair twice, I know, but I sense you've stopped floating now. It's a pity there aren't more Cons like you. Too many are succumbing to Farage and Reform. Stop that, you stop them.
    I am only one voice and simply reject everything Farage stands for

    That is not to say I dont want the boats stopped, because the subject is so toxic to the fabric of our nation end the boat crossings and it removes the oxygen from the debate - and on a side issue allows my sons colleagues in the RNLI to end worry about a possible large loss of life in the channel
    Farage is a bit like Dom Cummings - sometimes right about problems, always wrong about the solutions.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,904

    Sky

    Israeli President Isaac Herzog to vist UK next week

    Labour doubling down on that single figure polling target.

    Although TBF Hertzog is no Bibi.
    President Herzog has been one of Prime Minister Bibi's most prominent critics. That distinction might be lost on some.
    I fear you are right.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,202
    Selebian said:

    Sandpit said:

    https://x.com/jeremyclarkson/status/1963567179506258418

    “I’m puzzled. Labourites tell us that Angela Rayner was only trying to look after her child which they quite rightly say is understandable.
    But when a farmer tries to look after his children, they say he’s a tax dodger.”

    When a farmer tries to look after his children, what they actually say is he should be treated more like anyone else with an asset to pass on, rather than as a special case.

    ETA: There's debate, as we've often had on here, about whether farmers should be a special case, but I don't think anyone in Labour is accusing them of tax dodging. People who bought farmland as an inheritance tax dodge, maybe, but not actual long term farmers.
    They're still getting special treatment. IHT at half rate and 10 years to pay, interest free.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 3,136

    I think Reform will win the next GE.

    I'm actually suprised that the forced choice 'Lab or Reform' question is already as close as 43:37. Plenty for Reform to play for and the trajectory is still titing in their favour.

    There is the 18% Conservative vote to squeeze further (it saddens me but they are done.) After November's budget and maybe another couple like it, with Labour's manifesto pledges on Taxes in tatters, the 52% who delivered Brexit (allowing for electoral churn ofcourse) will, broadly speaking, deliver for Reform.

    I do think it is incredibly plausible the Tory vote will be squeezed further. Although I do appreciate that Reform and Tory voters are not in lockstep, there is a “back the winner” effect I could see come into play if the polls stay as they are.
    I may be the last conservative standing but they will not get my vote under any circumstances
    There is a hard core of Tory loyalists who will never vote for a MAGA-loving, Putin-excusing, populist like Farage. And without him where would Reform be?
    The Tory party will not die, and will revive at some point in the future. It may need a spasm of Reform electoral success first, but the electoral cycle will turn. And there will still be an ambitious group of people who will see the Conservatives as a route to a political career.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,904

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I genuinely do not expect Farage or Reform to win the next GE

    Who does is a very different question

    Sounds like you haven't lost hope of the Tories winning. Nice one. Party support is for life not just for Christmas.
    Not in my case - I voted for Blair twice

    Pity Starmer is no Blair
    Blair twice, I know, but I sense you've stopped floating now. It's a pity there aren't more Cons like you. Too many are succumbing to Farage and Reform. Stop that, you stop them.
    I am only one voice and simply reject everything Farage stands for

    That is not to say I dont want the boats stopped, because the subject is so toxic to the fabric of our nation end the boat crossings and it removes the oxygen from the debate - and on a side issue allows my sons colleagues in the RNLI to end worry about a possible large loss of life in the channel
    Surely you wouldn't say no to a Farage-Jenrick dream ticket. Or what about a Farage-svelte Johnson love-in?
  • It seems commentators are expecting a verdict from the ethics adviser sometime to tomorrow as he is going on holiday on Saturday !!
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,960

    It seems commentators are expecting a verdict from the ethics adviser sometime to tomorrow as he is going on holiday on Saturday !!

    They’ll want it before the Sunday news rounds so I’m not surprised.
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    I genuinely do not expect Farage or Reform to win the next GE

    Who does is a very different question

    Sounds like you haven't lost hope of the Tories winning. Nice one. Party support is for life not just for Christmas.
    Not in my case - I voted for Blair twice

    Pity Starmer is no Blair
    Blair twice, I know, but I sense you've stopped floating now. It's a pity there aren't more Cons like you. Too many are succumbing to Farage and Reform. Stop that, you stop them.
    I am only one voice and simply reject everything Farage stands for

    That is not to say I dont want the boats stopped, because the subject is so toxic to the fabric of our nation end the boat crossings and it removes the oxygen from the debate - and on a side issue allows my sons colleagues in the RNLI to end worry about a possible large loss of life in the channel
    Surely you wouldn't say no to a Farage-Jenrick dream ticket. Or what about a Farage-svelte Johnson love-in?
    How many times - i do not want anything to do with Farage
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,904
    nico67 said:
    The weather is simply a red herring, or so we were told by Chris Philp.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,943

    I don't think people will want a Reform government. But will it be possible to block it in a first past the post system where they are the largest party? I'm not sure. The British public is often quite good at gaming the system to get the result it wants.
    The fundamental problem is that nobody is willing to make the hard choices necessary to fix our problems. Everybody wants someone else to pay the costs involved. The voters are the real villains here.

    I think that's unfair on the voters. With a few honourable exceptions the voters aren't economists, they aren't experts on the public finances. They're only believing what they're being told.

    If it was the case that one of the parties had told them the truth about the current situation, and the hard choices that would be required, and had rejected that in favour of platitudes from other parties, then it might be fair to blame the voters.

    But that hasn't happened. No-one has levelled with the voters.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,328
    Nigelb said:

    "..four more years of Rachel Reeves at the Treasury and these figures might look different.."

    Assumes a fact very much not in evidence.

    Indeed: the chances of the world surviving four more years are not high.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,904

    It seems commentators are expecting a verdict from the ethics adviser sometime to tomorrow as he is going on holiday on Saturday !!

    He is a Rishi appointee. Let's hope the black cap has been freshly laundered.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 6,083

    nico67 said:
    The weather is simply a red herring, or so we were told by Chris Philp.
    It will be interesting to see what happens tomorrow and Saturday as the weather is going to quieten down . You’d expect a lot of attempted crossings .
  • Starmer confirms he knew Rayner was taking advice on Monday [BBC]
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,943

    I completely agree that it is far too early to say that Reform will win the next GE. However - a couple of observations:

    1: that margin is relatively tight. It suggests that there could be an element of stop Farage tactical voting that could help - but not significantly so.

    2: the country is really, really fed up, and if that continues over the next few years, it’s really going to badly affect the incumbents chances.

    And, as always, events.

    I think Labour could win the next GE. If I was being forced to predict though, I’d say it’s getting quite hard to see any party getting an overall majority if this fragmentation continues.

    If voting intention remains fragmented, at what point to Labour and the Tories think that maybe PR is a good idea?
    Probably at the point at which is too late for either of them to do anything about it.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,606

    Sky

    Israeli President Isaac Herzog to vist UK next week

    Labour doubling down on that single figure polling target.

    Although TBF Hertzog is no Bibi.
    President Herzog has been one of Prime Minister Bibi's most prominent critics. That distinction might be lost on some.
    I wonder whether he might claim political asylum while here? :lol:
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,904
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    "..four more years of Rachel Reeves at the Treasury and these figures might look different.."

    Assumes a fact very much not in evidence.

    Indeed: the chances of the world surviving four more years are not high.
    It would be an immense historical achievement if Donald Trump could extinguish the entire human race before November 2028. Future history books had there been any would certainly have made him the most crucial figure in the whole of World history.

    Beat that Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,862
    DementiaDon is REALLY pissed he wasn't invited to the Evil Dictator Party...

    @alaynatreene

    Trump, while speaking by phone with Zelensky & European leaders this morning, told them that Europe needs to stop buying Russian oil & put economic pressure on China as negotiations on ending the war continue, a White House official tells me
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,943
    Andy_JS said:

    I don't think people will want a Reform government. But will it be possible to block it in a first past the post system where they are the largest party? I'm not sure. The British public is often quite good at gaming the system to get the result it wants.
    The fundamental problem is that nobody is willing to make the hard choices necessary to fix our problems. Everybody wants someone else to pay the costs involved. The voters are the real villains here.

    Labour has a 170 seat majority. They could change the voting system without a referendum if they wanted to. For some reason, they don't.
    I think the Lords would block it, because it wasn't in the manifesto.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,728
    edited September 4

    I don't think people will want a Reform government. But will it be possible to block it in a first past the post system where they are the largest party? I'm not sure. The British public is often quite good at gaming the system to get the result it wants.
    The fundamental problem is that nobody is willing to make the hard choices necessary to fix our problems. Everybody wants someone else to pay the costs involved. The voters are the real villains here.

    I think that's unfair on the voters. With a few honourable exceptions the voters aren't economists, they aren't experts on the public finances. They're only believing what they're being told.

    If it was the case that one of the parties had told them the truth about the current situation, and the hard choices that would be required, and had rejected that in favour of platitudes from other parties, then it might be fair to blame the voters.

    But that hasn't happened. No-one has levelled with the voters.
    I think deep down the voters know.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,813

    I completely agree that it is far too early to say that Reform will win the next GE. However - a couple of observations:

    1: that margin is relatively tight. It suggests that there could be an element of stop Farage tactical voting that could help - but not significantly so.

    2: the country is really, really fed up, and if that continues over the next few years, it’s really going to badly affect the incumbents chances.

    And, as always, events.

    I think Labour could win the next GE. If I was being forced to predict though, I’d say it’s getting quite hard to see any party getting an overall majority if this fragmentation continues.

    If voting intention remains fragmented, at what point to Labour and the Tories think that maybe PR is a good idea?
    I could conceivably see Labour going for it - they’ve flirted with it before.

    The Tories will die off before they embrace it, IMHO.
    And they quite possibly will.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,606

    Starmer confirms he knew Rayner was taking advice on Monday [BBC]

    It's all gone a bit Craig David...

    Ange took advice on Monday
    Took some time to think on Tuesday
    She was tearing up by Wednesday
    And on Thursday and Friday and Saturday
    Resigned on Sunday?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,943
    Eabhal said:

    I don't think people will want a Reform government. But will it be possible to block it in a first past the post system where they are the largest party? I'm not sure. The British public is often quite good at gaming the system to get the result it wants.
    The fundamental problem is that nobody is willing to make the hard choices necessary to fix our problems. Everybody wants someone else to pay the costs involved. The voters are the real villains here.

    I think that's unfair on the voters. With a few honourable exceptions the voters aren't economists, they aren't experts on the public finances. They're only believing what they're being told.

    If it was the case that one of the parties had told them the truth about the current situation, and the hard choices that would be required, and had rejected that in favour of platitudes from other parties, then it might be fair to blame the voters.

    But that hasn't happened. No-one has levelled with the voters.
    I think deep down the voters know.
    But still. I like to think they I can count and that I know there's a problem. Who to vote for?
  • Phone was hidden in Commons to play ‘sex noises’ during PMQs
    An investigation has begun into how the phone was planted near the front bench in a serious breach of parliamentary security

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/sex-noises-pmqs-prank-ww3dz0k9b (£££)

    In an echo of the Gunpowder Plot, the device was discovered during a sweep before PMQs.
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