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Bell ends up as the next Chancellor? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,657
edited September 2 in General
Bell ends up as the next Chancellor? – politicalbetting.com

I am a fan of Torsten Bell, whilst I do not agree with his politics, he was thoughtful during his stint at the Resolute Foundation so I am not surprised with this promotion to help assist with the next budget.

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  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,830
    First
  • LeonLeon Posts: 64,814
    lol. Decent gag
  • Putting an economist in the Treasury? The horror!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,803
    edited September 2
    What are you talking about, "a second Labour term"? Leon has already said on the previous thread that the Labour Party are done. Bet accordingly!
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,258
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,124

    What are you talking about, "a second Labour term"? Leon has already said on the previous thread that the Labour Party are done. Bet accordingly!

    He just doesn't see any way back for them, does he. It's a worry.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,803
    Andy_JS said:
    Is two overs and one ball a Baker's dozen?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 64,814
    kinabalu said:

    What are you talking about, "a second Labour term"? Leon has already said on the previous thread that the Labour Party are done. Bet accordingly!

    He just doesn't see any way back for them, does he. It's a worry.
    As far as I know - I am happy to be corrected - no governing party with polling as poor as Starmer’s Labour has ever gone on to win a subsequent election

    That could be wrong, I’m still traumatised by my near death experience with the birds of Frankfurt, but if it is true then it suggests history is on my side here
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,803
    kinabalu said:

    What are you talking about, "a second Labour term"? Leon has already said on the previous thread that the Labour Party are done. Bet accordingly!

    He just doesn't see any way back for them, does he. It's a worry.
    I am none too happy with a fash-lite Labour Party. Although anything would be better than Jenrick Tories or Reform (and in that order).
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,885
    edited September 2
    I can’t see beyond Darren Jones, to be honest.

    Has done the Chief Sec job (often a precursor) and shows he is in favour with Starmer by getting this new role.

    And I think it’s very clear that Starmer doesn’t want to lose Reeves, but I think it’s certainly plausible. At the moment she soaks up a lot of the criticism and she’s a useful shield for all the unpopular economic stuff, but tactically I am sure Starmer will hope the opportunity presents itself to get rid at some point before the next GE (assuming he fights it).
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,803
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    What are you talking about, "a second Labour term"? Leon has already said on the previous thread that the Labour Party are done. Bet accordingly!

    He just doesn't see any way back for them, does he. It's a worry.
    As far as I know - I am happy to be corrected - no governing party with polling as poor as Starmer’s Labour has ever gone on to win a subsequent election

    That could be wrong, I’m still traumatised by my near death experience with the birds of Frankfurt, but if it is true then it suggests history is on my side here
    A change of leader? 2019 was a rapid turnaround after Mrs May was booted out.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 64,814
    edited September 2

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    What are you talking about, "a second Labour term"? Leon has already said on the previous thread that the Labour Party are done. Bet accordingly!

    He just doesn't see any way back for them, does he. It's a worry.
    As far as I know - I am happy to be corrected - no governing party with polling as poor as Starmer’s Labour has ever gone on to win a subsequent election

    That could be wrong, I’m still traumatised by my near death experience with the birds of Frankfurt, but if it is true then it suggests history is on my side here
    A change of leader? 2019 was a rapid turnaround after Mrs May was booted out.
    TMay was not as unpopular as Starmer I don’t think. Tho that is the closest comparison
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,747
    Isn't it the Resolution Foundation ?

    As opposed to the Resolute Desk.
  • AnthonyTAnthonyT Posts: 157
    Bell's policies - based on what the Resolution Foundation has proposed - would crucify the middle classes. Even more worrying is Starmer appointing Minouche Shafik as his chief economic adviser. She has proposed similarly daft policies. She was the President of Columbia University during a time when Jews there were being attacked and was unable to condemn such action unequivocally. So much for Starmer being strong on anti-semitism.
  • Truss was right...
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,321

    Truss was right...

    Far right?
  • Nigelb said:

    Isn't it the Resolution Foundation ?

    As opposed to the Resolute Desk.

    Well done for spotting my deliberate mistake.
  • On topic, I think the likelihood of Reeves being replaced in the near future is overstated.

    It doesn't seem to me that there is yet a significant policy divide between Downing Street neighbours. They have a real issue convincing markets they have a deliverable medium term strategy... but, for now, it's a collective problem not a divide of the sort that kills Chancellors.

    It could develop into that divide given Starmer has beefed up his Number 10 economic team just this week... but that's a slow burner, not something I expect to come to a head imminently.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,567
    edited September 2
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    What are you talking about, "a second Labour term"? Leon has already said on the previous thread that the Labour Party are done. Bet accordingly!

    He just doesn't see any way back for them, does he. It's a worry.
    As far as I know - I am happy to be corrected - no governing party with polling as poor as Starmer’s Labour has ever gone on to win a subsequent election

    That could be wrong, I’m still traumatised by my near death experience with the birds of Frankfurt, but if it is true then it suggests history is on my side here
    For recent Labour reference, Mr Gordon Brown of the Manse's Labour hit absolute rock bottom in May 2009 leading in to the local and Euro elections (including one 18% poll with MORI equalling the July 2019 and current FoN lows).
    The average May poll rating was above the current Labour average and had recovered to mid 20s within a month. We know how well his recovery went.......
    So, with SKS Labour in worse shape and huge economic headwinds (Brown's nadir was in a major recession) I think they struggle to recover.
    If Labour are in similar shape in May they'll be utterly mullered everywhere - Brown in 2009 Euros saw Labour come sixth in Cornwall behind Mebyon Kernow. Losses in London could be apocalyptic as could the Welsh and Scottish results
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,484

    Andy_JS said:
    Is two overs and one ball a Baker's dozen?
    Strange because TMS were saying he did very well in the 100.
    But then in the T20, world class international, sorry! Essex county pro Paul Walter smashed him for 19 1st over.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,369

    On topic, I think the likelihood of Reeves being replaced in the near future is overstated.

    It doesn't seem to me that there is yet a significant policy divide between Downing Street neighbours. They have a real issue convincing markets they have a deliverable medium term strategy... but, for now, it's a collective problem not a divide of the sort that kills Chancellors.

    It could develop into that divide given Starmer has beefed up his Number 10 economic team just this week... but that's a slow burner, not something I expect to come to a head imminently.

    There is a reasonable chance that the obvious is true, and that it doesn't matter who the CoE or PM is in this government. The obvious thing which might well be true is that nothing approaching a sensible line on cutting spending can get past the Labour MPs, as they have clearly demonstrated.
  • MonkeysMonkeys Posts: 817
    The two people Starmer has put forward for the position: Dodds and Reeves. Starmer is incapable of selecting someone both capable and able to communicate with the public.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,803

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    What are you talking about, "a second Labour term"? Leon has already said on the previous thread that the Labour Party are done. Bet accordingly!

    He just doesn't see any way back for them, does he. It's a worry.
    As far as I know - I am happy to be corrected - no governing party with polling as poor as Starmer’s Labour has ever gone on to win a subsequent election

    That could be wrong, I’m still traumatised by my near death experience with the birds of Frankfurt, but if it is true then it suggests history is on my side here
    For recent Labour reference, Mr Gordon Brown of the Manse's Labour hit absolute rock bottom in May 2009 leading in to the local and Euro elections (including one 18% poll with MORI equalling the July 2019 and current FoN lows).
    The average May poll rating was above the current Labour average and had recovered to mid 20s within a month. We know how well his recovery went.......
    So, with SKS Labour in worse shape and huge economic headwinds (Brown's nadir was in a major recession) I think they struggle to recover.
    If Labour are in similar shape in May they'll be utterly mullered everywhere - Brown in 2009 Euros saw Labour come sixth in Cornwall behind Mebyon Kernow. Losses in London could be apocalyptic as could the Welsh and Scottish results
    I agree a large enough recovery is unlikely, although a Reform collapse cheers me and is not beyond probability.

    Perhaps we are both wishcasting.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 15,964

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    What are you talking about, "a second Labour term"? Leon has already said on the previous thread that the Labour Party are done. Bet accordingly!

    He just doesn't see any way back for them, does he. It's a worry.
    As far as I know - I am happy to be corrected - no governing party with polling as poor as Starmer’s Labour has ever gone on to win a subsequent election

    That could be wrong, I’m still traumatised by my near death experience with the birds of Frankfurt, but if it is true then it suggests history is on my side here
    For recent Labour reference, Mr Gordon Brown of the Manse's Labour hit absolute rock bottom in May 2009 leading in to the local and Euro elections (including one 18% poll with MORI equalling the July 2019 and current FoN lows).
    The average May poll rating was above the current Labour average and had recovered to mid 20s within a month. We know how well his recovery went.......
    So, with SKS Labour in worse shape and huge economic headwinds (Brown's nadir was in a major recession) I think they struggle to recover.
    If Labour are in similar shape in May they'll be utterly mullered everywhere - Brown in 2009 Euros saw Labour come sixth in Cornwall behind Mebyon Kernow. Losses in London coukd be apocalyptic as coukd the Welsh and Scottish results
    I think we have to be careful with historical comparisons. Back then, the UK had a two (or two and a half) party system. That's no longer the case. We now have a five party system (using the Laakso & Taagepera formula).
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,567

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    What are you talking about, "a second Labour term"? Leon has already said on the previous thread that the Labour Party are done. Bet accordingly!

    He just doesn't see any way back for them, does he. It's a worry.
    As far as I know - I am happy to be corrected - no governing party with polling as poor as Starmer’s Labour has ever gone on to win a subsequent election

    That could be wrong, I’m still traumatised by my near death experience with the birds of Frankfurt, but if it is true then it suggests history is on my side here
    For recent Labour reference, Mr Gordon Brown of the Manse's Labour hit absolute rock bottom in May 2009 leading in to the local and Euro elections (including one 18% poll with MORI equalling the July 2019 and current FoN lows).
    The average May poll rating was above the current Labour average and had recovered to mid 20s within a month. We know how well his recovery went.......
    So, with SKS Labour in worse shape and huge economic headwinds (Brown's nadir was in a major recession) I think they struggle to recover.
    If Labour are in similar shape in May they'll be utterly mullered everywhere - Brown in 2009 Euros saw Labour come sixth in Cornwall behind Mebyon Kernow. Losses in London could be apocalyptic as could the Welsh and Scottish results
    I agree a large enough recovery is unlikely, although a Reform collapse cheers me and is not beyond probability.

    Perhaps we are both wishcasting.
    No wishcasting. I think they'll struggle. They'll either struggle successfully or in a failing effort. Que sera sera
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,567
    edited September 2

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    What are you talking about, "a second Labour term"? Leon has already said on the previous thread that the Labour Party are done. Bet accordingly!

    He just doesn't see any way back for them, does he. It's a worry.
    As far as I know - I am happy to be corrected - no governing party with polling as poor as Starmer’s Labour has ever gone on to win a subsequent election

    That could be wrong, I’m still traumatised by my near death experience with the birds of Frankfurt, but if it is true then it suggests history is on my side here
    For recent Labour reference, Mr Gordon Brown of the Manse's Labour hit absolute rock bottom in May 2009 leading in to the local and Euro elections (including one 18% poll with MORI equalling the July 2019 and current FoN lows).
    The average May poll rating was above the current Labour average and had recovered to mid 20s within a month. We know how well his recovery went.......
    So, with SKS Labour in worse shape and huge economic headwinds (Brown's nadir was in a major recession) I think they struggle to recover.
    If Labour are in similar shape in May they'll be utterly mullered everywhere - Brown in 2009 Euros saw Labour come sixth in Cornwall behind Mebyon Kernow. Losses in London could be apocalyptic as could the Welsh and Scottish results
    Isn’t this all a bit of an Apples and Oranges comparison though?

    Reform’s rise means it is the first time in a generation that we’ve had a possible 4 way split. 5 if you count the Greens. 6 if you count the Corbyn/Sultana party. Possibly more if you count the Home Nations’ parties.

    Labour are certainly in trouble on current form. However they could also - quite viably - get a majority under FPTP, if A) there’s even a small ‘Vote Labour to keep Farage out’ effect and B) the Tories/Reform stay divided.
    Its not an appropriate direct comparison but it does show that the last despised Labour PM didn't do enough to get reelected and he was less despised than SKS who has potential to fall further (hindsight tells us how bad it got at worst for Brown, we dont yet know for Starmer)
    Hence they'll struggle. We will see how manfully and successfully or otherwise

    Edit - regardless of the crowded field they need to recover from avg 20% to have any chances at all
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,137
    Torsten is an alumnus of the best Oxford college.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,907
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    What are you talking about, "a second Labour term"? Leon has already said on the previous thread that the Labour Party are done. Bet accordingly!

    He just doesn't see any way back for them, does he. It's a worry.
    As far as I know - I am happy to be corrected - no governing party with polling as poor as Starmer’s Labour has ever gone on to win a subsequent election

    That could be wrong, I’m still traumatised by my near death experience with the birds of Frankfurt, but if it is true then it suggests history is on my side here
    I think Labour have a poor hand that they are playing poorly, and the prospects for their continued electoral success are accordingly poor.

    I really don't think that precedent is a good guide for the current situation, though. The party leading in the polls is the joint-7th largest party in the Commons. We don't have much experience of this sort of situation.

    I think it's pretty clear that Labour won a landslide because the voters saw that as the only way to obliterate the Tories. I think it's still possible to see a Labour majority after the next election if the electorate reluctantly conclude that they're still the least-worst option available. The contempt that Labour are held in is certainly broad, but it may prove to be shallow.

    Or they might end up 4th after the next election.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,885
    edited September 2
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    What are you talking about, "a second Labour term"? Leon has already said on the previous thread that the Labour Party are done. Bet accordingly!

    He just doesn't see any way back for them, does he. It's a worry.
    As far as I know - I am happy to be corrected - no governing party with polling as poor as Starmer’s Labour has ever gone on to win a subsequent election

    That could be wrong, I’m still traumatised by my near death experience with the birds of Frankfurt, but if it is true then it suggests history is on my side here
    A change of leader? 2019 was a rapid turnaround after Mrs May was booted out.
    TMay was not as unpopular as Starmer I don’t think. Tho that is the closest comparison
    TMay shares many similarities with SKS I think, it’s just she got found wanting before she won her landslide majority (hence preventing it) whereas he got found out afterward.

    Both are probably decent administrators deep down (though swamped by the task of governing), both aren’t great public communicators, and both were poor strategists. They both also found themselves landed in the middle of problems not entirely of their own making. I preferred TMay though, albeit that was probably due to being instinctively more inclined to the right of centre.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,567
    edited September 2

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    What are you talking about, "a second Labour term"? Leon has already said on the previous thread that the Labour Party are done. Bet accordingly!

    He just doesn't see any way back for them, does he. It's a worry.
    As far as I know - I am happy to be corrected - no governing party with polling as poor as Starmer’s Labour has ever gone on to win a subsequent election

    That could be wrong, I’m still traumatised by my near death experience with the birds of Frankfurt, but if it is true then it suggests history is on my side here
    For recent Labour reference, Mr Gordon Brown of the Manse's Labour hit absolute rock bottom in May 2009 leading in to the local and Euro elections (including one 18% poll with MORI equalling the July 2019 and current FoN lows).
    The average May poll rating was above the current Labour average and had recovered to mid 20s within a month. We know how well his recovery went.......
    So, with SKS Labour in worse shape and huge economic headwinds (Brown's nadir was in a major recession) I think they struggle to recover.
    If Labour are in similar shape in May they'll be utterly mullered everywhere - Brown in 2009 Euros saw Labour come sixth in Cornwall behind Mebyon Kernow. Losses in London coukd be apocalyptic as coukd the Welsh and Scottish results
    I think we have to be careful with historical comparisons. Back then, the UK had a two (or two and a half) party system. That's no longer the case. We now have a five party system (using the Laakso & Taagepera formula).
    Granted, yes
    But recovery is required and we can identify from previous examples how well recovery has gone from these sort if very very low support levels. And we don't know if Labour have bottomed out yet (I suspect not and the record polling low will go over the next couple of months - possibly ditto the Tories)
  • The polling is absolutely dire for Labour. But I don't think it's particularly relevant to draw historical comparisons, as the state of multi-party flux we are now in is atypical.

    Let's say Labour are on 20% and Reform on 30%. That's a big gap. But in previous times, you'd expect the main opposition party to be on at least 40% if Labour were on 20% - a huge gap. Clumsily, what I'm trying to say is that those who argue there is no way back for Labour on current polling focus too much on Labour's dire score rather than on the size of the gap. We're in relatively new, highly volatile territory. And there's 4 years to go....

    Bang on.

    I just had a look at where we were at the equivalent point into the Coalition Government. So, about June/July 2011. It was Labour Leads of around 6-7%, broadly speaking.

    On Polling day in 2015, It was the exact opposite - a Tory lead of around 6-7%.

    Moreover, how much of this vote will be efficiently concentrated in 2029? The Lib Dems on 15% might get a ton more seats than the Tories on 17%!

    Personally, it won’t excite many people, but I think as long as the Tories don’t merge / pact with Reform, FPTP makes it extremely favourable for even an underperforming Labour government to get, at worst, a minority / coalition.

    If there is a Tory/Reform pact of some kind, however? All bets are off
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,907

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    What are you talking about, "a second Labour term"? Leon has already said on the previous thread that the Labour Party are done. Bet accordingly!

    He just doesn't see any way back for them, does he. It's a worry.
    As far as I know - I am happy to be corrected - no governing party with polling as poor as Starmer’s Labour has ever gone on to win a subsequent election

    That could be wrong, I’m still traumatised by my near death experience with the birds of Frankfurt, but if it is true then it suggests history is on my side here
    A change of leader? 2019 was a rapid turnaround after Mrs May was booted out.
    TMay was not as unpopular as Starmer I don’t think. Tho that is the closest comparison
    TMay shares many similarities with SKS I think, it’s just she got found wanting before she won her landslide majority (hence preventing it) whereas he got found out afterward.

    Both are probably decent administrators deep down (though swamped by the task of governing), both aren’t great public communicators, and both were poor strategists. They both also find themselves landed in the middle of problems not entirely of their own making. I preferred TMay though, albeit that was probably being instinctively more inclined to the right of centre.
    I had the impression that May's Cabinet was more able, notwithstanding the Brexit negotiation dream team of David Davis and Boris Johnson. That sort of thing affects the general competence level of the government, and consequently views of its leader.

    This is one reason why I think discussion about Reeves replacement is futile. Chances are a replacement would be worse.
  • Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    What are you talking about, "a second Labour term"? Leon has already said on the previous thread that the Labour Party are done. Bet accordingly!

    He just doesn't see any way back for them, does he. It's a worry.
    As far as I know - I am happy to be corrected - no governing party with polling as poor as Starmer’s Labour has ever gone on to win a subsequent election

    That could be wrong, I’m still traumatised by my near death experience with the birds of Frankfurt, but if it is true then it suggests history is on my side here
    I think Labour have a poor hand that they are playing poorly, and the prospects for their continued electoral success are accordingly poor.

    I really don't think that precedent is a good guide for the current situation, though. The party leading in the polls is the joint-7th largest party in the Commons. We don't have much experience of this sort of situation.

    I think it's pretty clear that Labour won a landslide because the voters saw that as the only way to obliterate the Tories. I think it's still possible to see a Labour majority after the next election if the electorate reluctantly conclude that they're still the least-worst option available. The contempt that Labour are held in is certainly broad, but it may prove to be shallow.

    Or they might end up 4th after the next election.
    This is also a very key point.

    The motivation to get the Tories out in 2024 bolstered the Labour vote.

    The motivation to keep Farage out in 2029 might actually be bigger…
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,258
    edited September 2

    The polling is absolutely dire for Labour. But I don't think it's particularly relevant to draw historical comparisons, as the state of multi-party flux we are now in is atypical.

    Let's say Labour are on 20% and Reform on 30%. That's a big gap. But in previous times, you'd expect the main opposition party to be on at least 40% if Labour/the governing party were on 20% - a huge gap. Clumsily, what I'm trying to say is that those who argue there is no way back for Labour on current polling focus too much on Labour's dire score rather than on the size of the gap. We're in relatively new, highly volatile territory. And there's 4 years to go....

    You could get a job as a spin doctor. 🙂
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,369

    The polling is absolutely dire for Labour. But I don't think it's particularly relevant to draw historical comparisons, as the state of multi-party flux we are now in is atypical.

    Let's say Labour are on 20% and Reform on 30%. That's a big gap. But in previous times, you'd expect the main opposition party to be on at least 40% if Labour were on 20% - a huge gap. Clumsily, what I'm trying to say is that those who argue there is no way back for Labour on current polling focus too much on Labour's dire score rather than on the size of the gap. We're in relatively new, highly volatile territory. And there's 4 years to go....

    Agree. The question of whether there is a way back for Labour is not about historic or current polling. It simply isn't true that Reform have the next parliament in the bag. They don't believe it, nor is it credible. The numbers are too flaky and the future contingents too numerous.

    By far the most likely alternative outcome is a Labour led government. The massive obstacle to this outcome is the current state of Labour MPs. Labour cannot possibly form the next government unless they perform acceptably well between now and 2028/9. No-one can see a route to successful government for the next 3-4 years without spending cuts and tax rises. Both cuts and rises will affect the poorer and the middling sorts - (even if the tax rises are also on the rich and super rich.)

    The evidence that Labour MPs will vote for this is currently absent.
  • PedestrianRockPedestrianRock Posts: 593
    edited September 2
    Andy_JS said:

    The polling is absolutely dire for Labour. But I don't think it's particularly relevant to draw historical comparisons, as the state of multi-party flux we are now in is atypical.

    Let's say Labour are on 20% and Reform on 30%. That's a big gap. But in previous times, you'd expect the main opposition party to be on at least 40% if Labour/the governing party were on 20% - a huge gap. Clumsily, what I'm trying to say is that those who argue there is no way back for Labour on current polling focus too much on Labour's dire score rather than on the size of the gap. We're in relatively new, highly volatile territory. And there's 4 years to go....

    You could get a job as a spin doctor.
    I don’t think any of us who’ve just made the above point think Labour are doing a stunning job, or that they necessarily deserve to benefit from FPTP’s idiosyncrasies - rather that ultimately, they might not need to be that popular to return to power.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 9,032
    Andy_JS said:

    The polling is absolutely dire for Labour. But I don't think it's particularly relevant to draw historical comparisons, as the state of multi-party flux we are now in is atypical.

    Let's say Labour are on 20% and Reform on 30%. That's a big gap. But in previous times, you'd expect the main opposition party to be on at least 40% if Labour/the governing party were on 20% - a huge gap. Clumsily, what I'm trying to say is that those who argue there is no way back for Labour on current polling focus too much on Labour's dire score rather than on the size of the gap. We're in relatively new, highly volatile territory. And there's 4 years to go....

    You could get a job as a spin doctor. 🙂
    Funnily enough been there, done that. But now retired.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,567
    edited September 2

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    What are you talking about, "a second Labour term"? Leon has already said on the previous thread that the Labour Party are done. Bet accordingly!

    He just doesn't see any way back for them, does he. It's a worry.
    As far as I know - I am happy to be corrected - no governing party with polling as poor as Starmer’s Labour has ever gone on to win a subsequent election

    That could be wrong, I’m still traumatised by my near death experience with the birds of Frankfurt, but if it is true then it suggests history is on my side here
    I think Labour have a poor hand that they are playing poorly, and the prospects for their continued electoral success are accordingly poor.

    I really don't think that precedent is a good guide for the current situation, though. The party leading in the polls is the joint-7th largest party in the Commons. We don't have much experience of this sort of situation.

    I think it's pretty clear that Labour won a landslide because the voters saw that as the only way to obliterate the Tories. I think it's still possible to see a Labour majority after the next election if the electorate reluctantly conclude that they're still the least-worst option available. The contempt that Labour are held in is certainly broad, but it may prove to be shallow.

    Or they might end up 4th after the next election.
    This is also a very key point.

    The motivation to get the Tories out in 2024 bolstered the Labour vote.

    The motivation to keep Farage out in 2029 might actually be bigger…
    However Labour voters and many LibDems will clutch at their pearls and scream, 'devil and the deep blue sea!!' In the large number of RefCon fights. Are they really going to install a Tory to stop Farage? And are Tories going to vote Labour after everything?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,466

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    What are you talking about, "a second Labour term"? Leon has already said on the previous thread that the Labour Party are done. Bet accordingly!

    He just doesn't see any way back for them, does he. It's a worry.
    As far as I know - I am happy to be corrected - no governing party with polling as poor as Starmer’s Labour has ever gone on to win a subsequent election

    That could be wrong, I’m still traumatised by my near death experience with the birds of Frankfurt, but if it is true then it suggests history is on my side here
    For recent Labour reference, Mr Gordon Brown of the Manse's Labour hit absolute rock bottom in May 2009 leading in to the local and Euro elections (including one 18% poll with MORI equalling the July 2019 and current FoN lows).
    The average May poll rating was above the current Labour average and had recovered to mid 20s within a month. We know how well his recovery went.......
    So, with SKS Labour in worse shape and huge economic headwinds (Brown's nadir was in a major recession) I think they struggle to recover.
    If Labour are in similar shape in May they'll be utterly mullered everywhere - Brown in 2009 Euros saw Labour come sixth in Cornwall behind Mebyon Kernow. Losses in London coukd be apocalyptic as coukd the Welsh and Scottish results
    I think we have to be careful with historical comparisons. Back then, the UK had a two (or two and a half) party system. That's no longer the case. We now have a five party system (using the Laakso & Taagepera formula).
    Granted, yes
    But recovery is required and we can identify from previous examples how well recovery has gone from these sort if very very low support levels. And we don't know if Labour have bottomed out yet (I suspect not and the record polling low will go over the next couple of months - possibly ditto the Tories)
    Labour will probably head somewhere below 20%, as we approach mid-term, so the coming local elections will be terrible for them,

    That does not rule out the sort of recovery that the Irish government enjoyed, after Sinn Fein had enjoyed huge leads, mid-term.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,466

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    What are you talking about, "a second Labour term"? Leon has already said on the previous thread that the Labour Party are done. Bet accordingly!

    He just doesn't see any way back for them, does he. It's a worry.
    As far as I know - I am happy to be corrected - no governing party with polling as poor as Starmer’s Labour has ever gone on to win a subsequent election

    That could be wrong, I’m still traumatised by my near death experience with the birds of Frankfurt, but if it is true then it suggests history is on my side here
    I think Labour have a poor hand that they are playing poorly, and the prospects for their continued electoral success are accordingly poor.

    I really don't think that precedent is a good guide for the current situation, though. The party leading in the polls is the joint-7th largest party in the Commons. We don't have much experience of this sort of situation.

    I think it's pretty clear that Labour won a landslide because the voters saw that as the only way to obliterate the Tories. I think it's still possible to see a Labour majority after the next election if the electorate reluctantly conclude that they're still the least-worst option available. The contempt that Labour are held in is certainly broad, but it may prove to be shallow.

    Or they might end up 4th after the next election.
    This is also a very key point.

    The motivation to get the Tories out in 2024 bolstered the Labour vote.

    The motivation to keep Farage out in 2029 might actually be bigger…
    However Labour voters and many LibDems will clutch at their pearls and scream, 'devil and the deep blue sea!!' In the large number of RefCon fights. Are they really going to install a Tory to stop Farage? And are Tories going to vote Labour after everything?
    No, and no, mostly .
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,369
    edited September 2

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    What are you talking about, "a second Labour term"? Leon has already said on the previous thread that the Labour Party are done. Bet accordingly!

    He just doesn't see any way back for them, does he. It's a worry.
    As far as I know - I am happy to be corrected - no governing party with polling as poor as Starmer’s Labour has ever gone on to win a subsequent election

    That could be wrong, I’m still traumatised by my near death experience with the birds of Frankfurt, but if it is true then it suggests history is on my side here
    I think Labour have a poor hand that they are playing poorly, and the prospects for their continued electoral success are accordingly poor.

    I really don't think that precedent is a good guide for the current situation, though. The party leading in the polls is the joint-7th largest party in the Commons. We don't have much experience of this sort of situation.

    I think it's pretty clear that Labour won a landslide because the voters saw that as the only way to obliterate the Tories. I think it's still possible to see a Labour majority after the next election if the electorate reluctantly conclude that they're still the least-worst option available. The contempt that Labour are held in is certainly broad, but it may prove to be shallow.

    Or they might end up 4th after the next election.
    I think Labour won so well is that not only were they the route to obliterate a bad government, but there was a belief that they had reasonable levels of competence and had sane policies and detailed planning in reserve to disclose once the Ming vase strategy had delivered.

    We already knew that Starmer would say anything and break promises to get to be leader, and to win an election, and so there was an expectation that he would break any promises to do whatever was necessary to sort out the political and economic mess. It seemed obvious that the tax promises had to be broken immediately, under cover of bogus discoveries about the true state of things. The silly idiots made all the bogus disoveries, but then didn't capitalise early. Now they look stuck, unless Reeves can do some late promise breaking in October. Last chance.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,258
    "Owen Jones
    @owenjonesjourno

    The obsessive flag stuff is completely un-British, by the way.
    The French and Americans parade their flags so much because they’re products of revolution and symbolise popular sovereignty.
    Covering everything in flags is, ironically, importing an alien foreign tradition."

    https://x.com/owenjonesjourno/status/1962819017648783755
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,124
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    What are you talking about, "a second Labour term"? Leon has already said on the previous thread that the Labour Party are done. Bet accordingly!

    He just doesn't see any way back for them, does he. It's a worry.
    As far as I know - I am happy to be corrected - no governing party with polling as poor as Starmer’s Labour has ever gone on to win a subsequent election

    That could be wrong, I’m still traumatised by my near death experience with the birds of Frankfurt, but if it is true then it suggests history is on my side here
    Time, events, volatility, randomness, Trump, serendipity, misfortune, accidents, cock-ups, conspiracies. Christmas feels an age away - thankfully - and there's still about 1265 shopping days to the election.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,567
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    What are you talking about, "a second Labour term"? Leon has already said on the previous thread that the Labour Party are done. Bet accordingly!

    He just doesn't see any way back for them, does he. It's a worry.
    As far as I know - I am happy to be corrected - no governing party with polling as poor as Starmer’s Labour has ever gone on to win a subsequent election

    That could be wrong, I’m still traumatised by my near death experience with the birds of Frankfurt, but if it is true then it suggests history is on my side here
    For recent Labour reference, Mr Gordon Brown of the Manse's Labour hit absolute rock bottom in May 2009 leading in to the local and Euro elections (including one 18% poll with MORI equalling the July 2019 and current FoN lows).
    The average May poll rating was above the current Labour average and had recovered to mid 20s within a month. We know how well his recovery went.......
    So, with SKS Labour in worse shape and huge economic headwinds (Brown's nadir was in a major recession) I think they struggle to recover.
    If Labour are in similar shape in May they'll be utterly mullered everywhere - Brown in 2009 Euros saw Labour come sixth in Cornwall behind Mebyon Kernow. Losses in London coukd be apocalyptic as coukd the Welsh and Scottish results
    I think we have to be careful with historical comparisons. Back then, the UK had a two (or two and a half) party system. That's no longer the case. We now have a five party system (using the Laakso & Taagepera formula).
    Granted, yes
    But recovery is required and we can identify from previous examples how well recovery has gone from these sort if very very low support levels. And we don't know if Labour have bottomed out yet (I suspect not and the record polling low will go over the next couple of months - possibly ditto the Tories)
    Labour will probably head somewhere below 20%, as we approach mid-term, so the coming local elections will be terrible for them,

    That does not rule out the sort of recovery that the Irish government enjoyed, after Sinn Fein had enjoyed huge leads, mid-term.
    Oh totally, never rule anything out! However im currently in the ain't happening camp.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,437
    Who would be COE when Trump can upset any plans. I’d wait to see what happens next.

    Will he invade

    * Chicago
    * Canada
    * Greenland or
    * Venezuela

    if he doesn’t get the Nobel award?
  • Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    What are you talking about, "a second Labour term"? Leon has already said on the previous thread that the Labour Party are done. Bet accordingly!

    He just doesn't see any way back for them, does he. It's a worry.
    As far as I know - I am happy to be corrected - no governing party with polling as poor as Starmer’s Labour has ever gone on to win a subsequent election

    That could be wrong, I’m still traumatised by my near death experience with the birds of Frankfurt, but if it is true then it suggests history is on my side here
    I think Labour have a poor hand that they are playing poorly, and the prospects for their continued electoral success are accordingly poor.

    I really don't think that precedent is a good guide for the current situation, though. The party leading in the polls is the joint-7th largest party in the Commons. We don't have much experience of this sort of situation.

    I think it's pretty clear that Labour won a landslide because the voters saw that as the only way to obliterate the Tories. I think it's still possible to see a Labour majority after the next election if the electorate reluctantly conclude that they're still the least-worst option available. The contempt that Labour are held in is certainly broad, but it may prove to be shallow.

    Or they might end up 4th after the next election.
    This is also a very key point.

    The motivation to get the Tories out in 2024 bolstered the Labour vote.

    The motivation to keep Farage out in 2029 might actually be bigger…
    However Labour voters and many LibDems will clutch at their pearls and scream, 'devil and the deep blue sea!!' In the large number of RefCon fights. Are they really going to install a Tory to stop Farage? And are Tories going to vote Labour after everything?
    No, and no, mostly .
    On the other hand, there aren't that many RefCon fights. The starting point is 121 Conservative seats, 5 Reform. That leaves an awfully large part of the country where it's clear who is leading on the centre-left.

    The big disadvantage RefCon have is that they don't have an agreed "we'll go here, you go there" map, either explicitly or implicitly. Of course that could change, in which case all bets are off.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,258
    "Graham Linehan
    I was arrested for insulting the trans mob"

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/i-was-arrested-for-insulting-the-trans-mob
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,907
    Andy_JS said:

    "Owen Jones
    @owenjonesjourno

    The obsessive flag stuff is completely un-British, by the way.
    The French and Americans parade their flags so much because they’re products of revolution and symbolise popular sovereignty.
    Covering everything in flags is, ironically, importing an alien foreign tradition."

    https://x.com/owenjonesjourno/status/1962819017648783755

    Odd that he hasn't drawn the conclusion his own words suggest.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,612
    Andy_JS said:

    "Graham Linehan
    I was arrested for insulting the trans mob"

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/i-was-arrested-for-insulting-the-trans-mob

    The coppers really screwed up when they only banned him from Twitter - it’s been the most read story on BBC news for most of the afternoon.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,885
    edited September 2

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    What are you talking about, "a second Labour term"? Leon has already said on the previous thread that the Labour Party are done. Bet accordingly!

    He just doesn't see any way back for them, does he. It's a worry.
    As far as I know - I am happy to be corrected - no governing party with polling as poor as Starmer’s Labour has ever gone on to win a subsequent election

    That could be wrong, I’m still traumatised by my near death experience with the birds of Frankfurt, but if it is true then it suggests history is on my side here
    For recent Labour reference, Mr Gordon Brown of the Manse's Labour hit absolute rock bottom in May 2009 leading in to the local and Euro elections (including one 18% poll with MORI equalling the July 2019 and current FoN lows).
    The average May poll rating was above the current Labour average and had recovered to mid 20s within a month. We know how well his recovery went.......
    So, with SKS Labour in worse shape and huge economic headwinds (Brown's nadir was in a major recession) I think they struggle to recover.
    If Labour are in similar shape in May they'll be utterly mullered everywhere - Brown in 2009 Euros saw Labour come sixth in Cornwall behind Mebyon Kernow. Losses in London coukd be apocalyptic as coukd the Welsh and Scottish results
    I think we have to be careful with historical comparisons. Back then, the UK had a two (or two and a half) party system. That's no longer the case. We now have a five party system (using the Laakso & Taagepera formula).
    Granted, yes
    But recovery is required and we can identify from previous examples how well recovery has gone from these sort if very very low support levels. And we don't know if Labour have bottomed out yet (I suspect not and the record polling low will go over the next couple of months - possibly ditto the Tories)
    Labour will probably head somewhere below 20%, as we approach mid-term, so the coming local elections will be terrible for them,

    That does not rule out the sort of recovery that the Irish government enjoyed, after Sinn Fein had enjoyed huge leads, mid-term.
    Oh totally, never rule anything out! However im currently in the ain't happening camp.
    There is a narrative developing that isn’t helpful for the government. Every relaunch appears to be mocked or shrugged away, every announcement seems to be seen through a negative prism, and people just seem to have given up on Labour one year in.

    First impressions matter. Labour’s weren’t good, and they’ve not helped themselves since.

    I agree with everyone who has said Labour can win the next election. Politics is simply too much in a state of flux to say or predict otherwise. However, I do think that the fundamentals aren’t lining up on their side: They haven’t managed to get the unpopular stuff out of the way in Year 1 (the Year 2 budget looks to be worse than the first despite Reeves’ silly protestations that she “wasn’t coming back for more taxes”).

    They also face an increasingly parlous debt situation which threatens to tip us over into a full crisis at some point. If we do hit crisis point, Labour won’t be able to avoid wider tax rises, spending cuts and pensions reform, some of which will be right but none of which will be popular, and may hit at precisely the wrong point of the political cycle.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,124

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    What are you talking about, "a second Labour term"? Leon has already said on the previous thread that the Labour Party are done. Bet accordingly!

    He just doesn't see any way back for them, does he. It's a worry.
    As far as I know - I am happy to be corrected - no governing party with polling as poor as Starmer’s Labour has ever gone on to win a subsequent election

    That could be wrong, I’m still traumatised by my near death experience with the birds of Frankfurt, but if it is true then it suggests history is on my side here
    For recent Labour reference, Mr Gordon Brown of the Manse's Labour hit absolute rock bottom in May 2009 leading in to the local and Euro elections (including one 18% poll with MORI equalling the July 2019 and current FoN lows).
    The average May poll rating was above the current Labour average and had recovered to mid 20s within a month. We know how well his recovery went.......
    So, with SKS Labour in worse shape and huge economic headwinds (Brown's nadir was in a major recession) I think they struggle to recover.
    If Labour are in similar shape in May they'll be utterly mullered everywhere - Brown in 2009 Euros saw Labour come sixth in Cornwall behind Mebyon Kernow. Losses in London coukd be apocalyptic as coukd the Welsh and Scottish results
    I think we have to be careful with historical comparisons. Back then, the UK had a two (or two and a half) party system. That's no longer the case. We now have a five party system (using the Laakso & Taagepera formula).
    Maybe six with Corbyn's offering.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,567
    edited September 2
    On the subject of the 'stop Farage' thing, Reform's vote share is important. The established parties already have their somewhat ingrained regional and local strengths and weaknesses. In a 'multi party over 10%) FPTP election, 35% will win the bulk of seats. If Reform end up o high 20s, even if 8 or 9 % clear of the field, they'll need to get some efficiency into their vote because 'someone' could hit 35% pretty much everywhere without huge tactical voting.
    Reform couldn't afford 28% being as inefficient as last years 14% was.
    For the former big beasts, getting 35% in 'xxx' seats is a much easier prospect than a full national attack, but how much are they prepared to turn into wasteland for them requiring a decade or two to work back into?
    The Tories this time are free from trying to defend a majority and can target holding on, abandoning some /many areas they had begun to progress in. Its Labour that have the burden of mass defence and will likely suffer the same sort of catastrophic proportionate declines Sunaks Tories did. I suspect they'll completely fall apart in seats they came second in in 2024 - Locally NW Norfolk, Mid Norfolk and Broadland would be e amples of where I think they'll disintegrate as resource goes into defending undefendable landslide seats
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,406
    Andy_JS said:

    "Graham Linehan
    I was arrested for insulting the trans mob"

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/i-was-arrested-for-insulting-the-trans-mob

    He got a Spectator article out of it so why's he complaining?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,803
    edited September 2
    Good analysis on R4 PM by Jim O'Neill of the 30 year and 10 year yields in UK, France and the USA.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,803
    Jenrick is on Team Linehan.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,747

    Nigelb said:

    Isn't it the Resolution Foundation ?

    As opposed to the Resolute Desk.

    Well done for spotting my deliberate mistake.
    Someone has to read the header, after all.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,803
    Zack Polanski.

    He must be a Tory plant.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,747
    You don't want this Chinese dog running into you at 30kph.

    While Boston Dynamics is still stuck on doing flips w/ its Quadruped robots, Unitree dogs are hauling around 250 kg payload.

    It's amazing to see BD give up its 1st mover advantage

    https://x.com/tphuang/status/1962882603683303664
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,124

    Jenrick is on Team Linehan.

    He's commented? Well I never.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,730
    edited September 2
    The President's announcement relates to the "Department of Defense".

    Some card: "What, the identity of the Commander-in-Chief?"

    Although, I am following this myself, as you'll have gathered -something does feel to have occurred and I'm wondering what.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,803
    kinabalu said:

    Jenrick is on Team Linehan.

    He's commented? Well I never.
    So has Philp, so has Musk.

    The Tories are more Muskovite than Reform these days. Teslas all around!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 64,814
    CatMan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Graham Linehan
    I was arrested for insulting the trans mob"

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/i-was-arrested-for-insulting-the-trans-mob

    He got a Spectator article out of it so why's he complaining?
    Good work by the Govester there. The Spectator secured the biggest story of the day

    That’s why it is the greatest magazine - indeed possibly the greatest thing of any kind, including astral bodies - in the history of the cosmos
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,124

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    What are you talking about, "a second Labour term"? Leon has already said on the previous thread that the Labour Party are done. Bet accordingly!

    He just doesn't see any way back for them, does he. It's a worry.
    As far as I know - I am happy to be corrected - no governing party with polling as poor as Starmer’s Labour has ever gone on to win a subsequent election

    That could be wrong, I’m still traumatised by my near death experience with the birds of Frankfurt, but if it is true then it suggests history is on my side here
    For recent Labour reference, Mr Gordon Brown of the Manse's Labour hit absolute rock bottom in May 2009 leading in to the local and Euro elections (including one 18% poll with MORI equalling the July 2019 and current FoN lows).
    The average May poll rating was above the current Labour average and had recovered to mid 20s within a month. We know how well his recovery went.......
    So, with SKS Labour in worse shape and huge economic headwinds (Brown's nadir was in a major recession) I think they struggle to recover.
    If Labour are in similar shape in May they'll be utterly mullered everywhere - Brown in 2009 Euros saw Labour come sixth in Cornwall behind Mebyon Kernow. Losses in London coukd be apocalyptic as coukd the Welsh and Scottish results
    I think we have to be careful with historical comparisons. Back then, the UK had a two (or two and a half) party system. That's no longer the case. We now have a five party system (using the Laakso & Taagepera formula).
    Granted, yes
    But recovery is required and we can identify from previous examples how well recovery has gone from these sort if very very low support levels. And we don't know if Labour have bottomed out yet (I suspect not and the record polling low will go over the next couple of months - possibly ditto the Tories)
    Labour will probably head somewhere below 20%, as we approach mid-term, so the coming local elections will be terrible for them,

    That does not rule out the sort of recovery that the Irish government enjoyed, after Sinn Fein had enjoyed huge leads, mid-term.
    Oh totally, never rule anything out! However im currently in the ain't happening camp.
    There is a narrative developing that isn’t helpful for the government. Every relaunch appears to be mocked or shrugged away, every announcement seems to be seen through a negative prism, and people just seem to have given up on Labour one year in.

    First impressions matter. Labour’s weren’t good, and they’ve not helped themselves since.

    I agree with everyone who has said Labour can win the next election. Politics is simply too much in a state of flux to say or predict otherwise. However, I do think that the fundamentals aren’t lining up on their side: They haven’t managed to get the unpopular stuff out of the way in Year 1 (the Year 2 budget looks to be worse than the first despite Reeves’ silly protestations that she “wasn’t coming back for more taxes”).

    They also face an increasingly parlous debt situation which threatens to tip us over into a full crisis at some point. If we do hit crisis point, Labour won’t be able to avoid wider tax rises, spending cuts and pensions reform, some of which will be right but none of which will be popular, and may hit at precisely the wrong point of the political cycle.
    The betting gives Labour a 35% chance of winning the next election. My reading of the PB consensus is that's a strong lay. By which I mean if weighted average PB is a person they ought to be laying it. Laying it now. Waiting till nearer the time is unwise because if the general "they look doomed" sentiment proves correct the value will disappear.
  • tlg86 said:

    Torsten is an alumnus of the best Oxford college.

    Brookes?
  • Battlebus said:

    Who would be COE when Trump can upset any plans. I’d wait to see what happens next.

    Will he invade

    * Chicago
    * Canada
    * Greenland or
    * Venezuela

    if he doesn’t get the Nobel award?

    Trump will invade Venezuela in order to discombobulate the Ukraine backers.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,667
    Nigelb said:

    You don't want this Chinese dog running into you at 30kph.

    While Boston Dynamics is still stuck on doing flips w/ its Quadruped robots, Unitree dogs are hauling around 250 kg payload.

    It's amazing to see BD give up its 1st mover advantage

    https://x.com/tphuang/status/1962882603683303664

    Your regular warning that lots of the Boston Dynamics Killer Product* have proven to be faked demos.

    Mind you, quite a bit of Boston Dynamics demos have been er… tuned up.

    *remember the semi annual launch of the iPhone Killer?
  • Man on round-the-world trip has bike stolen in UK
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy08ee77klzo

    Indian chap on charity round-the-world ride had his bike swapped for a crime number.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,124

    kinabalu said:

    Jenrick is on Team Linehan.

    He's commented? Well I never.
    So has Philp, so has Musk.

    The Tories are more Muskovite than Reform these days. Teslas all around!
    That Philp is becoming quite brazen. He's really going for it.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,966
    Leon said:

    CatMan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Graham Linehan
    I was arrested for insulting the trans mob"

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/i-was-arrested-for-insulting-the-trans-mob

    He got a Spectator article out of it so why's he complaining?
    Good work by the Govester there. The Spectator secured the biggest story of the day

    That’s why it is the greatest magazine - indeed possibly the greatest thing of any kind, including astral bodies - in the history of the cosmos
    Govey’s definitely got his finger on the edgy satire button.

    https://x.com/chiuauateardrop/status/1877009486885323168?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,862
    Foss said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Graham Linehan
    I was arrested for insulting the trans mob"

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/i-was-arrested-for-insulting-the-trans-mob

    The coppers really screwed up when they only banned him from Twitter - it’s been the most read story on BBC news for most of the afternoon.
    Ken White (of the longstanding legal commentary Twitter account “popehat”) is claiming that his Tweets could well have been prosecutable in the US. Doesn’t think that the likelihood of conviction is high though - I believe the authorities would have to convince a jury that the tweets posed an imminent threat, which is a higher threshold that the UK applies.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,567
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jenrick is on Team Linehan.

    He's commented? Well I never.
    So has Philp, so has Musk.

    The Tories are more Muskovite than Reform these days. Teslas all around!
    That Philp is becoming quite brazen. He's really going for it.
    Him and Kearns are just having a blast knowing they will both be back in 2029 even if no others in the ShadCab are
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,124
    edited September 2
    Foss said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Graham Linehan
    I was arrested for insulting the trans mob"

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/i-was-arrested-for-insulting-the-trans-mob

    The coppers really screwed up when they only banned him from Twitter - it’s been the most read story on BBC news for most of the afternoon.
    And even more tellingly has achieved PB thread crossover. Don't think that's happened since Putin invaded Ukraine.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,406
    Pro_Rata said:

    The President's announcement relates to the "Department of Defense".

    Some card: "What, the identity of the Commander-in-Chief?"

    Although, I am following this myself, as you'll have gathered -something does feel to have occurred and I'm wondering what.

    From The Guardian live blog:

    "There are murmurs that instead the “exciting announcement” will be about renaming the Department of Defense to the “Department of War” – it’s former name previously discontinued in 1947.

    A number of news outlets reported ahead of Labor Day that the White House had been working up plans for the reverted name, citing a White House official.
    "
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,885
    CatMan said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    The President's announcement relates to the "Department of Defense".

    Some card: "What, the identity of the Commander-in-Chief?"

    Although, I am following this myself, as you'll have gathered -something does feel to have occurred and I'm wondering what.

    From The Guardian live blog:

    "There are murmurs that instead the “exciting announcement” will be about renaming the Department of Defense to the “Department of War” – it’s former name previously discontinued in 1947.

    A number of news outlets reported ahead of Labor Day that the White House had been working up plans for the reverted name, citing a White House official.
    "
    These people are mental.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,137
    CatMan said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    The President's announcement relates to the "Department of Defense".

    Some card: "What, the identity of the Commander-in-Chief?"

    Although, I am following this myself, as you'll have gathered -something does feel to have occurred and I'm wondering what.

    From The Guardian live blog:

    "There are murmurs that instead the “exciting announcement” will be about renaming the Department of Defense to the “Department of War” – it’s former name previously discontinued in 1947.

    A number of news outlets reported ahead of Labor Day that the White House had been working up plans for the reverted name, citing a White House official.
    "
    Can we bring back the War Department?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,936
    The multiparty polling we’ve got at the moment does make things harder to predict. I’m still a fan of using RefCon vs LLG as a proxy for what would historically have been Lib-Lab vs Con.

    That latest Yougov is RefCon 49 LLG 45. That’s a big swing from the 10%+ leads for LLG before the election but not as significant as the government on 20% would imply. The Greens are regularly polling 10% or more which is unprecedented, and the Lib Dems are a good 4-5% higher than they were in mid term a few years ago.

    What that means for an election all really depends on how much the Tories recover vs Reform, and how much Labour gets back tactically from the Greens. Another reason the Farage-lite approach from Starmer is a risk.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,184
    edited September 2

    Man on round-the-world trip has bike stolen in UK
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy08ee77klzo

    Indian chap on charity round-the-world ride had his bike swapped for a crime number.

    ...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 47,124
    CatMan said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    The President's announcement relates to the "Department of Defense".

    Some card: "What, the identity of the Commander-in-Chief?"

    Although, I am following this myself, as you'll have gathered -something does feel to have occurred and I'm wondering what.

    From The Guardian live blog:

    "There are murmurs that instead the “exciting announcement” will be about renaming the Department of Defense to the “Department of War” – it’s former name previously discontinued in 1947.

    A number of news outlets reported ahead of Labor Day that the White House had been working up plans for the reverted name, citing a White House official.
    "
    That will have anti-west aggressors like Canada and Greenland quaking in their boots.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,650

    CatMan said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    The President's announcement relates to the "Department of Defense".

    Some card: "What, the identity of the Commander-in-Chief?"

    Although, I am following this myself, as you'll have gathered -something does feel to have occurred and I'm wondering what.

    From The Guardian live blog:

    "There are murmurs that instead the “exciting announcement” will be about renaming the Department of Defense to the “Department of War” – it’s former name previously discontinued in 1947.

    A number of news outlets reported ahead of Labor Day that the White House had been working up plans for the reverted name, citing a White House official.
    "
    These people are mental.
    Elected partly on a ticket of ending young working class men being killed and maimed in "pointless" neo-con wars abroad and so within six months renames DoD as a War Department.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,184
    edited September 2
    tlg86 said:

    CatMan said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    The President's announcement relates to the "Department of Defense".

    Some card: "What, the identity of the Commander-in-Chief?"

    Although, I am following this myself, as you'll have gathered -something does feel to have occurred and I'm wondering what.

    From The Guardian live blog:

    "There are murmurs that instead the “exciting announcement” will be about renaming the Department of Defense to the “Department of War” – it’s former name previously discontinued in 1947.

    A number of news outlets reported ahead of Labor Day that the White House had been working up plans for the reverted name, citing a White House official.
    "
    Can we bring back the War Department?
    You'd need to split off the Admiralty. Bring back their Lordships.
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,820
    CatMan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Graham Linehan
    I was arrested for insulting the trans mob"

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/i-was-arrested-for-insulting-the-trans-mob

    He got a Spectator article out of it so why's he complaining?
    If you read the article you’ll find out. He had come to the U.K. to attend his own trial. His arrest at the behest of a trans activist seems incredibly OTT. Especially when you see that activists online comments historically.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,411
    He went back on his the pledges in the leadership election, renamed them ‘missions’ for the GE so as to make easier to row back on them, then…


    Sir Keir Starmer has streamlined his priorities for government by scrapping a unit that was intended to oversee his flagship missions as part of his latest reset

    The five missions were central to the prime minister’s vision for government when he was in opposition and included kickstarting economic growth, making Britain a clean energy superpower and building an NHS fit for the future…

    …It means that Starmer has now announced more than 30 different priorities since entering office, including an array of “foundations”, “missions”, “first steps”, “milestones” and “economic growth pillars”.



    https://www.thetimes.com/article/7ee9d7e8-8fa2-4b6d-8cfa-dce1fdcd376d?shareToken=824acb7830c000f6daf54653a28a4608
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,667
    isam said:

    He went back on his the pledges in the leadership election, renamed them ‘missions’ for the GE so as to make easier to row back on them, then…


    Sir Keir Starmer has streamlined his priorities for government by scrapping a unit that was intended to oversee his flagship missions as part of his latest reset

    The five missions were central to the prime minister’s vision for government when he was in opposition and included kickstarting economic growth, making Britain a clean energy superpower and building an NHS fit for the future…

    …It means that Starmer has now announced more than 30 different priorities since entering office, including an array of “foundations”, “missions”, “first steps”, “milestones” and “economic growth pillars”.



    https://www.thetimes.com/article/7ee9d7e8-8fa2-4b6d-8cfa-dce1fdcd376d?shareToken=824acb7830c000f6daf54653a28a4608

    … and replaced it with a flagship mission to flagshag
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,567
    isam said:

    He went back on his the pledges in the leadership election, renamed them ‘missions’ for the GE so as to make easier to row back on them, then…


    Sir Keir Starmer has streamlined his priorities for government by scrapping a unit that was intended to oversee his flagship missions as part of his latest reset

    The five missions were central to the prime minister’s vision for government when he was in opposition and included kickstarting economic growth, making Britain a clean energy superpower and building an NHS fit for the future…

    …It means that Starmer has now announced more than 30 different priorities since entering office, including an array of “foundations”, “missions”, “first steps”, “milestones” and “economic growth pillars”.



    https://www.thetimes.com/article/7ee9d7e8-8fa2-4b6d-8cfa-dce1fdcd376d?shareToken=824acb7830c000f6daf54653a28a4608

    He said he gets it, though. So there is that
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,369
    edited September 2
    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    What are you talking about, "a second Labour term"? Leon has already said on the previous thread that the Labour Party are done. Bet accordingly!

    He just doesn't see any way back for them, does he. It's a worry.
    As far as I know - I am happy to be corrected - no governing party with polling as poor as Starmer’s Labour has ever gone on to win a subsequent election

    That could be wrong, I’m still traumatised by my near death experience with the birds of Frankfurt, but if it is true then it suggests history is on my side here
    For recent Labour reference, Mr Gordon Brown of the Manse's Labour hit absolute rock bottom in May 2009 leading in to the local and Euro elections (including one 18% poll with MORI equalling the July 2019 and current FoN lows).
    The average May poll rating was above the current Labour average and had recovered to mid 20s within a month. We know how well his recovery went.......
    So, with SKS Labour in worse shape and huge economic headwinds (Brown's nadir was in a major recession) I think they struggle to recover.
    If Labour are in similar shape in May they'll be utterly mullered everywhere - Brown in 2009 Euros saw Labour come sixth in Cornwall behind Mebyon Kernow. Losses in London coukd be apocalyptic as coukd the Welsh and Scottish results
    I think we have to be careful with historical comparisons. Back then, the UK had a two (or two and a half) party system. That's no longer the case. We now have a five party system (using the Laakso & Taagepera formula).
    Granted, yes
    But recovery is required and we can identify from previous examples how well recovery has gone from these sort if very very low support levels. And we don't know if Labour have bottomed out yet (I suspect not and the record polling low will go over the next couple of months - possibly ditto the Tories)
    Labour will probably head somewhere below 20%, as we approach mid-term, so the coming local elections will be terrible for them,

    That does not rule out the sort of recovery that the Irish government enjoyed, after Sinn Fein had enjoyed huge leads, mid-term.
    Oh totally, never rule anything out! However im currently in the ain't happening camp.
    There is a narrative developing that isn’t helpful for the government. Every relaunch appears to be mocked or shrugged away, every announcement seems to be seen through a negative prism, and people just seem to have given up on Labour one year in.

    First impressions matter. Labour’s weren’t good, and they’ve not helped themselves since.

    I agree with everyone who has said Labour can win the next election. Politics is simply too much in a state of flux to say or predict otherwise. However, I do think that the fundamentals aren’t lining up on their side: They haven’t managed to get the unpopular stuff out of the way in Year 1 (the Year 2 budget looks to be worse than the first despite Reeves’ silly protestations that she “wasn’t coming back for more taxes”).

    They also face an increasingly parlous debt situation which threatens to tip us over into a full crisis at some point. If we do hit crisis point, Labour won’t be able to avoid wider tax rises, spending cuts and pensions reform, some of which will be right but none of which will be popular, and may hit at precisely the wrong point of the political cycle.
    The betting gives Labour a 35% chance of winning the next election. My reading of the PB consensus is that's a strong lay. By which I mean if weighted average PB is a person they ought to be laying it. Laying it now. Waiting till nearer the time is unwise because if the general "they look doomed" sentiment proves correct the value will disappear.
    In judging the issue you have to eliminate the impossible. Someone is going to lead the next government (alone or coalition); someone is going to get most seats, whether + or - 325.

    The Tories look out of it, and without the resource to make the attempt. It's astonishing, but they are not a serious party with serious MPs and serious members. This leaves only Reform and Labour together to come to a % points chance score of about 85 of most seats/leading next government.

    Current betting seems to split that approx Reform 50%, Labour 35%. That's too high for Reform. Time, lack of good people, the USA, and future contingencies are not their friend. Therefore Labour at 35% are too low. Reform are the lay.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,825
    tlg86 said:

    CatMan said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    The President's announcement relates to the "Department of Defense".

    Some card: "What, the identity of the Commander-in-Chief?"

    Although, I am following this myself, as you'll have gathered -something does feel to have occurred and I'm wondering what.

    From The Guardian live blog:

    "There are murmurs that instead the “exciting announcement” will be about renaming the Department of Defense to the “Department of War” – it’s former name previously discontinued in 1947.

    A number of news outlets reported ahead of Labor Day that the White House had been working up plans for the reverted name, citing a White House official.
    "
    Can we bring back the War Department?
    We only went for the euphemism "Department of Defence" in the mid-Sixties, so we'll within living memory.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,667
    algarkirk said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    What are you talking about, "a second Labour term"? Leon has already said on the previous thread that the Labour Party are done. Bet accordingly!

    He just doesn't see any way back for them, does he. It's a worry.
    As far as I know - I am happy to be corrected - no governing party with polling as poor as Starmer’s Labour has ever gone on to win a subsequent election

    That could be wrong, I’m still traumatised by my near death experience with the birds of Frankfurt, but if it is true then it suggests history is on my side here
    For recent Labour reference, Mr Gordon Brown of the Manse's Labour hit absolute rock bottom in May 2009 leading in to the local and Euro elections (including one 18% poll with MORI equalling the July 2019 and current FoN lows).
    The average May poll rating was above the current Labour average and had recovered to mid 20s within a month. We know how well his recovery went.......
    So, with SKS Labour in worse shape and huge economic headwinds (Brown's nadir was in a major recession) I think they struggle to recover.
    If Labour are in similar shape in May they'll be utterly mullered everywhere - Brown in 2009 Euros saw Labour come sixth in Cornwall behind Mebyon Kernow. Losses in London coukd be apocalyptic as coukd the Welsh and Scottish results
    I think we have to be careful with historical comparisons. Back then, the UK had a two (or two and a half) party system. That's no longer the case. We now have a five party system (using the Laakso & Taagepera formula).
    Granted, yes
    But recovery is required and we can identify from previous examples how well recovery has gone from these sort if very very low support levels. And we don't know if Labour have bottomed out yet (I suspect not and the record polling low will go over the next couple of months - possibly ditto the Tories)
    Labour will probably head somewhere below 20%, as we approach mid-term, so the coming local elections will be terrible for them,

    That does not rule out the sort of recovery that the Irish government enjoyed, after Sinn Fein had enjoyed huge leads, mid-term.
    Oh totally, never rule anything out! However im currently in the ain't happening camp.
    There is a narrative developing that isn’t helpful for the government. Every relaunch appears to be mocked or shrugged away, every announcement seems to be seen through a negative prism, and people just seem to have given up on Labour one year in.

    First impressions matter. Labour’s weren’t good, and they’ve not helped themselves since.

    I agree with everyone who has said Labour can win the next election. Politics is simply too much in a state of flux to say or predict otherwise. However, I do think that the fundamentals aren’t lining up on their side: They haven’t managed to get the unpopular stuff out of the way in Year 1 (the Year 2 budget looks to be worse than the first despite Reeves’ silly protestations that she “wasn’t coming back for more taxes”).

    They also face an increasingly parlous debt situation which threatens to tip us over into a full crisis at some point. If we do hit crisis point, Labour won’t be able to avoid wider tax rises, spending cuts and pensions reform, some of which will be right but none of which will be popular, and may hit at precisely the wrong point of the political cycle.
    The betting gives Labour a 35% chance of winning the next election. My reading of the PB consensus is that's a strong lay. By which I mean if weighted average PB is a person they ought to be laying it. Laying it now. Waiting till nearer the time is unwise because if the general "they look doomed" sentiment proves correct the value will disappear.
    In judging the issue you have to eliminate the impossible. Someone is going to lead the next government (alone or coalition); someone is going to get most seats, whether + or - 325.

    The Tories look out of it, and without the resource to make the attempt. It's astonishing, but they are not a serious party with serious MPs and serious members. This leaves only Reform and Labour together to come to a % points chance score of about 85 of most seats/leading next government.

    Current betting seems to split that approx Reform 50%, Labour 35%. That's too high for Reform. Time, lack of good people, the USA, and future contingencies are not their friend. Therefore Labour at 35% are too low. Reform are the lay.
    Then again, the current government is proving expert at


  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,114
    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    CatMan said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    The President's announcement relates to the "Department of Defense".

    Some card: "What, the identity of the Commander-in-Chief?"

    Although, I am following this myself, as you'll have gathered -something does feel to have occurred and I'm wondering what.

    From The Guardian live blog:

    "There are murmurs that instead the “exciting announcement” will be about renaming the Department of Defense to the “Department of War” – it’s former name previously discontinued in 1947.

    A number of news outlets reported ahead of Labor Day that the White House had been working up plans for the reverted name, citing a White House official.
    "
    Can we bring back the War Department?
    We only went for the euphemism "Department of Defence" in the mid-Sixties, so we'll within living memory.
    There was a difference though, the WD ran the army, the Admiralty and Air Ministry were separate.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,216
    Talking of flags they are usually on display all along the route of the cycling Grand Tours. So it is with La Vuelta - many Basque flags but the winner is probably - Palestine!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,650
    isam said:

    He went back on his the pledges in the leadership election, renamed them ‘missions’ for the GE so as to make easier to row back on them, then…


    Sir Keir Starmer has streamlined his priorities for government by scrapping a unit that was intended to oversee his flagship missions as part of his latest reset

    The five missions were central to the prime minister’s vision for government when he was in opposition and included kickstarting economic growth, making Britain a clean energy superpower and building an NHS fit for the future…

    …It means that Starmer has now announced more than 30 different priorities since entering office, including an array of “foundations”, “missions”, “first steps”, “milestones” and “economic growth pillars”.



    https://www.thetimes.com/article/7ee9d7e8-8fa2-4b6d-8cfa-dce1fdcd376d?shareToken=824acb7830c000f6daf54653a28a4608

    Never run for high office unless you actually have something big and important that you want to achieve with it.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,184
    edited September 2

    Leon said:

    CatMan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Graham Linehan
    I was arrested for insulting the trans mob"

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/i-was-arrested-for-insulting-the-trans-mob

    He got a Spectator article out of it so why's he complaining?
    Good work by the Govester there. The Spectator secured the biggest story of the day

    That’s why it is the greatest magazine - indeed possibly the greatest thing of any kind, including astral bodies - in the history of the cosmos
    Govey’s definitely got his finger on the edgy satire button.

    https://x.com/chiuauateardrop/status/1877009486885323168?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/sep/02/father-ted-creator-graham-linehan-arrested-over-posts-on-transgender-issues

    Polis statement:

    “The arrest was made by officers from the MPS aviation unit. It is routine for officers policing airports to carry firearms. These were not drawn or used at any point during the arrest.”
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,820
    Budget won’t be til mid November, earliest, as govt has not given PBR the ten week notice it needs

    That will reassure the markets

    https://x.com/hugogye/status/1962895554930688288?s=61
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,567
    Taz said:

    Budget won’t be til mid November, earliest, as govt has not given PBR the ten week notice it needs

    That will reassure the markets

    https://x.com/hugogye/status/1962895554930688288?s=61

    'I spoke to a former PM and she reckons you don't have to do the OBR thing'
    'Awesome'
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,820
    More chaos at a local level from labour. Four defections mean they lose a majority on Rushmoor council.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c2enem0dm4jo
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,184

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    CatMan said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    The President's announcement relates to the "Department of Defense".

    Some card: "What, the identity of the Commander-in-Chief?"

    Although, I am following this myself, as you'll have gathered -something does feel to have occurred and I'm wondering what.

    From The Guardian live blog:

    "There are murmurs that instead the “exciting announcement” will be about renaming the Department of Defense to the “Department of War” – it’s former name previously discontinued in 1947.

    A number of news outlets reported ahead of Labor Day that the White House had been working up plans for the reverted name, citing a White House official.
    "
    Can we bring back the War Department?
    We only went for the euphemism "Department of Defence" in the mid-Sixties, so we'll within living memory.
    There was a difference though, the WD ran the army, the Admiralty and Air Ministry were separate.
    Ministry of Supply as well, till the 1950s or so. (A sort of successor to the Board of Ordnance and probably as annoying.)
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,885
    Taz said:

    Budget won’t be til mid November, earliest, as govt has not given PBR the ten week notice it needs

    That will reassure the markets

    https://x.com/hugogye/status/1962895554930688288?s=61

    That’s not good.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 64,814
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    CatMan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Graham Linehan
    I was arrested for insulting the trans mob"

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/i-was-arrested-for-insulting-the-trans-mob

    He got a Spectator article out of it so why's he complaining?
    Good work by the Govester there. The Spectator secured the biggest story of the day

    That’s why it is the greatest magazine - indeed possibly the greatest thing of any kind, including astral bodies - in the history of the cosmos
    Govey’s definitely got his finger on the edgy satire button.

    https://x.com/chiuauateardrop/status/1877009486885323168?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/sep/02/father-ted-creator-graham-linehan-arrested-over-posts-on-transgender-issues

    Polis statement:

    “The arrest was made by officers from the MPS aviation unit. It is routine for officers policing airports to carry firearms. These were not drawn or used at any point during the arrest.”
    So they didn’t actually try and shoot him. Just arrested him with five cops all with guns at the airport, for some jokey tweets
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,810
    CatMan said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    The President's announcement relates to the "Department of Defense".

    Some card: "What, the identity of the Commander-in-Chief?"

    Although, I am following this myself, as you'll have gathered -something does feel to have occurred and I'm wondering what.

    From The Guardian live blog:

    "There are murmurs that instead the “exciting announcement” will be about renaming the Department of Defense to the “Department of War” – it’s former name previously discontinued in 1947.

    A number of news outlets reported ahead of Labor Day that the White House had been working up plans for the reverted name, citing a White House official.
    "
    Surely it should be the Department of Offense?
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