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They Change Their Sky, Not Their Soul – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,653
edited 6:51AM in General
They Change Their Sky, Not Their Soul – politicalbetting.com

In two significant ways, Reform UK supporters, and that subset which knows how to hold a writing implement and thus become Reform UK voters, are like senior military officers. First, they only want to hear things that they already know to be true. Second, they assume that anything they don’t personally understand must be simple.

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Comments

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,733
    "Even though irregular maritime arrivals are a small fraction of the total immigration to the UK, they have totemic potency way beyond their actual number."

    If it was not for them, the racists would find something else to whip up a frenzy about.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 64,730
    Guten Tag from the very sunny Austrian Alps. What a beautiful place. I love the dirndl
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,869
    An outrageous thread - how dare facts and sanity be raised?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,869
    I also love the takedown of "why can't we just tow them back - the Australians did". No, we can't because geography here and because the Aussies didn't tow migrant boats back. But apart from that, top idea...
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,596
    Thanks for clarifying the geography Dura. Presumably, there's not much stopping the French doing the same thing, dropping boat people somewhere where their only option is to land in Cornwall, like some sadistic game of ping-pong?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,915
    On the unchanging soul thing, Carswell seems to have gone from slightly loony but harmless Conkipper to out and out racist just by moving to the USA, so travel can apparently narrow the mind and the soul.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,869

    Thanks for clarifying the geography Dura. Presumably, there's not much stopping the French doing the same thing, dropping boat people somewhere where their only option is to land in Cornwall, like some sadistic game of ping-pong?

    No no, we hold all the cards. Sovereignty is us getting to tell foreigners what to do in their own country. If we tow a boat back or land a plane then the forrin will do what we bally well tell them.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,498
    A big shout out to plucky little Liverpool, who have proved we are the greatest club in the world.

    We have made Newcastle United, the club with the richest owners in the world, bend the knee and sell Isak to us.

    All with a comparable net spend to Arsenal this summer.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,596

    I also love the takedown of "why can't we just tow them back - the Australians did". No, we can't because geography here and because the Aussies didn't tow migrant boats back. But apart from that, top idea...

    Also, British culture isn't Australian. We're gentlemen, or effete wimps, depending on your starting point. We don't want to see the sausage made. Even Farage gets this, as evidenced by his row-back last week.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,734
    Leon said:

    Guten Tag from the very sunny Austrian Alps. What a beautiful place. I love the dirndl

    I am sure it suits you
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,497

    Thanks for clarifying the geography Dura. Presumably, there's not much stopping the French doing the same thing, dropping boat people somewhere where their only option is to land in Cornwall, like some sadistic game of ping-pong?

    No no, we hold all the cards. Sovereignty is us getting to tell foreigners what to do in their own country. If we tow a boat back or land a plane then the forrin will do what we bally well tell them.
    Isn't there a geographical spot called "The Dura" somewhere? I have various types of country in my head, but I'm I'll get it wrong. I may mean "The Jura", which is aiui somewhere mountain-foresty in Western Switzerland.

    Since @Leon is up and about, perhaps he can advise?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,141
    edited 7:16AM

    Thanks for clarifying the geography Dura. Presumably, there's not much stopping the French doing the same thing, dropping boat people somewhere where their only option is to land in Cornwall, like some sadistic game of ping-pong?

    The other point is, how long does it take to move one lot of boat people down from say Deal past Wight to the Cherbourg peninsula before dumping them, and motoring back to the narrows? This, essentially, saturates the 'defences' by reducing their efficiency (output per day) by a considerable factor, well above unity - I'd guess 5-10 when refuelling and shift end is taken into account.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,915

    Thanks for clarifying the geography Dura. Presumably, there's not much stopping the French doing the same thing, dropping boat people somewhere where their only option is to land in Cornwall, like some sadistic game of ping-pong?

    For those showing unseemly excitement over the prospect of Président Le Pen, would she and her pals be sympathetic to the UK’s migrant travails? Sadistic migrant ping pong would seem to be very much to their taste.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,498

    On the unchanging soul thing, Carswell seems to have gone from slightly loony but harmless Conkipper to out and out racist just by moving to the USA, so travel can apparently narrow the mind and the soul.

    I know somebody who knows Douglas Carswell, it's not so much the move to America, it was the murder of fellow Essex MP David Amess that has radicalised Douglas, comments that David Amess would be disgusted by Carswell's behaviour are currently falling on deaf ears.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,141
    edited 7:22AM
    MattW said:

    Thanks for clarifying the geography Dura. Presumably, there's not much stopping the French doing the same thing, dropping boat people somewhere where their only option is to land in Cornwall, like some sadistic game of ping-pong?

    No no, we hold all the cards. Sovereignty is us getting to tell foreigners what to do in their own country. If we tow a boat back or land a plane then the forrin will do what we bally well tell them.
    Isn't there a geographical spot called "The Dura" somewhere? I have various types of country in my head, but I'm I'll get it wrong. I may mean "The Jura", which is aiui somewhere mountain-foresty in Western Switzerland.

    Since @Leon is up and about, perhaps he can advise?
    Dura Den, in the middle of Fife (a much neglected county, full of C18 high farming and lovely coastal scenery and fishertowns, and a more than decent university).

    Sounds like DA's worskhop, but in facr Den in Scots = wooded ravine, etc., compare S. English dene.

    Famous for its fossils. I've seen huge slabs of sandstone covered in primeval armoured fishes that died in some drought in Devonian times.

    https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/assets/university/schools/school-of-earth-and-environmental-sciences/documents/geoheritage-leaflets/dura-den.pdf
    https://collections.st-andrews.ac.uk/item/dura-den-fossil-fish/762345
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,869

    I also love the takedown of "why can't we just tow them back - the Australians did". No, we can't because geography here and because the Aussies didn't tow migrant boats back. But apart from that, top idea...

    Did we read the same article?

    Dura outlines exactly how you could go about doing a tow back in the Channel. You tow out west to somewhere just over 12 miles from the French coast, but a lot further from the British coast. In the Bay of Biscay of you want to be extreme, or Brittany if minimalist.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,892
    Many thanks, @Dura_Ace, for an informative header (and my first new word of the day - vexilophilic).

    From what I've read, it really isn't so very long since people from the village 2 miles down the road were considered foreigners and abused if they appeared off their own territory.

    I hope it doesn't cross the boundaries of decency to say that if our national flags are so dreadful, displaying them at the landing points would have the small boats fleeing as soon as they saw them.

    That reminds me of a Carry On film somehow.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,497

    On the unchanging soul thing, Carswell seems to have gone from slightly loony but harmless Conkipper to out and out racist just by moving to the USA, so travel can apparently narrow the mind and the soul.

    He's running a small ($800k per annum) "free market conservative" thinktank in Mississippi, somewhere, who embrace strange causes and make bizarre comparisons. He is out and proud to have gone down the particular rabbit hole. An application for US citizenship would not be a surprise.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_Center_for_Public_Policy

    What's happens in Mississippi would perhaps be better off staying in Mississippi.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,615
    edited 7:22AM
    Good morning

    Many thanks to @Dura_Ace for such an Informative piece

    The boats are totemic and toxic for politicians and Starmer's [and labour's] instinctively support asylum seekers and it is against their very nature to adopt the language of Farage so when Starmer starts shouting 'deport them' he just highlights Farage’s message

    Also in a few weeks we have Reeves embarking on a tax raising exercise, strikes looming in the public sector, and in October the Epping case in court

    None of this augurs well for labour
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,869

    I also love the takedown of "why can't we just tow them back - the Australians did". No, we can't because geography here and because the Aussies didn't tow migrant boats back. But apart from that, top idea...

    Also, British culture isn't Australian. We're gentlemen, or effete wimps, depending on your starting point. We don't want to see the sausage made. Even Farage gets this, as evidenced by his row-back last week.
    Given the recent protests is that true any more?

    A lot of people in Britain seem not only unbothered with seeing the sausage made, but would actually relish seeing the pig squeal as part of the process. Social media has had a massive effect on brutalising people's sensibilities.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,596

    Good morning

    Many thanks to @Dura_Ace for such an Informative piece

    The boats are totemic and toxic for politicians and Starmer's [and labour's] instinctively support asylum seekers and it is against their very nature to adopt the language of Farage so when Starmer starts shouting 'deport them' he just highlights Farage’s message

    Also in a few weeks we have Reeves embarking on a tax raising exercise, strikes looming in the public sector, and in October the Epping case in court

    None of this augurs well for labour

    Given that, mediocre as they are, Labour are still the party best-placed to stop a Reform government...

    Bad for Labour = Bad for Britain.
  • eekeek Posts: 31,064

    Good morning

    Many thanks to @Dura_Ace for such an Informative piece

    The boats are totemic and toxic for politicians and Starmer's [and labour's] instinctively support asylum seekers and it is against their very nature to adopt the language of Farage so when Starmer starts shouting 'deport them' he just highlights Farage’s message

    Also in a few weeks we have Reeves embarking on a tax raising exercise, strikes looming in the public sector, and in October the Epping case in court

    None of this augurs well for labour

    It's an impossible problem to fix.

    So were I SKS I would be appointing Farage as the leader of a taskforce to solve the issue - without asking him first and then watch how he handles the problem...
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,892
    We can't duck the issue that the solution must be humane for all parties. Not just the arrivals but for those who are already here. New immigrants are more important than people who live here because dealing with them is a matter of national interest whilst our own homeless people are merely a local problem.

    Perhaps the government could change the law so that all homeless people are a national interest issue. That would at least give people who live here parity with immigrants.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,356
    Great to see you write a header DA.

    Regarding the possible solution, what is to stop the skipper pocketing the bribe and heading back to France a bit before doing a U turn to try again?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,497
    There is a quite interesting question floating around as to where Reform UK's football shirts are made, as the "Made in Britain" logo is an unofficial one with unclear requirements, rather than the one that requires manufacture to be done in the UK.

    I think they will dead-bat that one.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,943

    Some of the charmers behind the racist and hotel riots ............A decent bit of research by 'stand up to racism'

    Interesting article Dura though I loathe the idea of dumping these unfortunate people to accomodate the serensibilities of a bunch of nasty racists.

    https://standuptoracism.org.uk/far-right-activists-and-convicted-criminals-behind-anti-refugee-protests-in-manchester-and-stockport/
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,263
    edited 7:31AM
    If not tow backs then the British government will have to do something.

    As a noted PB-er not so long ago pointed out in a whole post on the matter, it is not the measly numbers (although growing) that is the issue, it is that these boats are the most visible and literal (hi Leon) manifestation of the government's lack of control. Over our borders in this instance and, people will inevitably extrapolate, over other parts of the economy also.

    Is why it's so dangerous.

    As for practical measures to stop them? F**k knows.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,625
    Holiday finished, back home now and have several hundred emails to read!
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,501
    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    Thanks for clarifying the geography Dura. Presumably, there's not much stopping the French doing the same thing, dropping boat people somewhere where their only option is to land in Cornwall, like some sadistic game of ping-pong?

    No no, we hold all the cards. Sovereignty is us getting to tell foreigners what to do in their own country. If we tow a boat back or land a plane then the forrin will do what we bally well tell them.
    Isn't there a geographical spot called "The Dura" somewhere? I have various types of country in my head, but I'm I'll get it wrong. I may mean "The Jura", which is aiui somewhere mountain-foresty in Western Switzerland.

    Since @Leon is up and about, perhaps he can advise?
    Dura Den, in the middle of Fife (a much neglected county, full of C18 high farming and lovely coastal scenery and fishertowns, and a more than decent university).

    Sounds like DA's worskhop, but in facr Den in Scots = wooded ravine, etc., compare S. English dene.

    Famous for its fossils. I've seen huge slabs of sandstone covered in primeval armoured fishes that died in some drought in Devonian times.

    https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/assets/university/schools/school-of-earth-and-environmental-sciences/documents/geoheritage-leaflets/dura-den.pdf
    https://collections.st-andrews.ac.uk/item/dura-den-fossil-fish/762345
    Or the Paps of Jura, on, erm, Jura (in the Hebrides).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paps_of_Jura
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,628

    On the unchanging soul thing, Carswell seems to have gone from slightly loony but harmless Conkipper to out and out racist just by moving to the USA, so travel can apparently narrow the mind and the soul.

    I know somebody who knows Douglas Carswell, it's not so much the move to America, it was the murder of fellow Essex MP David Amess that has radicalised Douglas, comments that David Amess would be disgusted by Carswell's behaviour are currently falling on deaf ears.
    I used to know Carswell moderately well, before his MP days. He was always the social liberal in the room. Now look at him.

    The process of self-radicalisation is effecting not just the electorate but the aspiring (and actual leaders)

    If you want something to make you freak out - it will be happening in journalism as well.
  • eekeek Posts: 31,064
    Sandpit said:

    Holiday finished, back home now and have several hundred emails to read!

    My viewpoint on holiday emails - anything important will be brought to your attention by someone who actually needs an answer - so anything in your mailbox isn't that important.

    My mailbox is full of items from JIRA so it's really not that important.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,462
    Would these inflatables survive being towed? I doubt they've been designed for towing loads, so you may end up tearing them apart and a lot of people in the sea.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 64,730
    I’m not going to wade through. 98 paragraphs of quasi-military crepitations first thing in the morning. If you can’t make an argument in five sentences, don’t make it

    Next
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,263
    edited 7:38AM
    Meanwhile, and talking of Jezza's new party as we were on the previous thread, this did make me smile.

    https://x.com/WillKingston/status/1962252403106894267?s=08
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,501
    OT the council has sent its annual letter about the electoral register.
  • JSpringJSpring Posts: 108
    An intelligent left-wing argument (I.e. one which doesn't reflexively react to whatever Reform/Farage are saying) on this matter is that migrants should stay in France because France is a more civilised and enlightened country which is not full of flag-painting knuckledraggers.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,501
    Trump's ankles look like how mine blew up one night, with the cause eventually traced to dodgy ticker disease. It is his brain freezes that are more concerning, and that probably would have ruled him out last year had the GOP not done such a good job of weaponising Joe Biden's similar lapses.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,915
    edited 7:42AM
    Meanwhile the BBC seems strangely excited by the news that ‘the Queen’ fought off a pervert in a train with a shoe in her teenage years, mentioning it on the hour and several times in between. The first 14 times they reported it I assumed they meant QEII and therefore imagined a young Elizabeth in tweeds beating a weirdo with a sensible brogue.
    A niche fantasy I accept..
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,628
    JSpring said:

    An intelligent left-wing argument (I.e. one which doesn't reflexively react to whatever Reform/Farage are saying) on this matter is that migrants should stay in France because France is a more civilised and enlightened country which is not full of flag-painting knuckledraggers.



    Have you not, perhaps, encountered the National Ramblers?

    Who are polling 36% at the moment.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,102
    JSpring said:

    An intelligent left-wing argument (I.e. one which doesn't reflexively react to whatever Reform/Farage are saying) on this matter is that migrants should stay in France because France is a more civilised and enlightened country which is not full of flag-painting knuckledraggers.

    1 France isn't more enlightened.
    2 France has its own nutters and fascists.
    3 Migrants decide their attempted destination not politicians
    4 Despite the musings of Refukker politicians which assume "they" "all" come here, more asylum seekers already choose France than the UK, France processed 158k to the UKs 108k last year.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,676
    Is there an issue with our prevailing southwesterly wind? If we dump migrants in life rafts just off France and they get blown into the shipping lanes, we just give the RNLI more work to do.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,497

    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    Thanks for clarifying the geography Dura. Presumably, there's not much stopping the French doing the same thing, dropping boat people somewhere where their only option is to land in Cornwall, like some sadistic game of ping-pong?

    No no, we hold all the cards. Sovereignty is us getting to tell foreigners what to do in their own country. If we tow a boat back or land a plane then the forrin will do what we bally well tell them.
    Isn't there a geographical spot called "The Dura" somewhere? I have various types of country in my head, but I'm I'll get it wrong. I may mean "The Jura", which is aiui somewhere mountain-foresty in Western Switzerland.

    Since @Leon is up and about, perhaps he can advise?
    Dura Den, in the middle of Fife (a much neglected county, full of C18 high farming and lovely coastal scenery and fishertowns, and a more than decent university).

    Sounds like DA's worskhop, but in facr Den in Scots = wooded ravine, etc., compare S. English dene.

    Famous for its fossils. I've seen huge slabs of sandstone covered in primeval armoured fishes that died in some drought in Devonian times.

    https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/assets/university/schools/school-of-earth-and-environmental-sciences/documents/geoheritage-leaflets/dura-den.pdf
    https://collections.st-andrews.ac.uk/item/dura-den-fossil-fish/762345
    Or the Paps of Jura, on, erm, Jura (in the Hebrides).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paps_of_Jura
    That's where else I've seen it - it's a whisky.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,141

    Meanwhile the BBC seems strangely excited by the news that ‘the Queen’ fought off a pervert in a train with a shoe in her teenage years, mentioning it on the hour and several times in between. The first 14 times they reported it I assumed they meant QEII and therefore imagined a young Elizabeth in tweeds beating a weirdo with a sensible brogue.
    A niche fantasy I accept..

    On further and brief inspection, it's a third hand story via Messrs B. Johnson and G. Harris. Well, fourth hand via the book author as well before one even gets to the Beeb/DT. .
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,049
    JSpring said:

    An intelligent left-wing argument (I.e. one which doesn't reflexively react to whatever Reform/Farage are saying) on this matter is that migrants should stay in France because France is a more civilised and enlightened country which is not full of flag-painting knuckledraggers.

    The Le Pens say bonjour.

    France has every bit as bad a problem with racist, flag waving knuckledraggers. If you hadn’t noticed the political landscape in France where a party suitably to the Right of Reform is a much bigger electoral proposition then you really shouldn’t be making clever statements about France being so magnifique and fluffy compared to horrid old England.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,628
    TOPPING said:

    Meanwhile, and talking of Jezza's new party as we were on the previous thread, this did make me smile.

    https://x.com/WillKingston/status/1962252403106894267?s=08

    In my time in student politics, in the early 90s, the SWP was trying to ally with the Head Choppers (Wanabee). They were quite discombobulated to be told by the Head Chopers that they were seen as identical to Tories or even (drum roll) Labour - all non Head Choppers were on The List, apparently.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 64,730
    Mr @Dura_Ace also misunderstands the word “approbation”. It means “formal or enthusiastic approval”. The sentence “approbation and sanctions” is therefore nonsense

    The posh word he is forlornly seeking is “disapprobation” = “formal or severe disapproval”

    Frankly, the whole thing is jejeune
  • eekeek Posts: 31,064

    On the unchanging soul thing, Carswell seems to have gone from slightly loony but harmless Conkipper to out and out racist just by moving to the USA, so travel can apparently narrow the mind and the soul.

    I know somebody who knows Douglas Carswell, it's not so much the move to America, it was the murder of fellow Essex MP David Amess that has radicalised Douglas, comments that David Amess would be disgusted by Carswell's behaviour are currently falling on deaf ears.
    I used to know Carswell moderately well, before his MP days. He was always the social liberal in the room. Now look at him.

    The process of self-radicalisation is effecting not just the electorate but the aspiring (and actual leaders)

    If you want something to make you freak out - it will be happening in journalism as well.
    It already is - because the right viewpoint is the only one where there are rich people willing to pay for their viewpoint to be broadcast.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,733
    Leon said:

    I’m not going to wade through. 98 paragraphs of quasi-military crepitations first thing in the morning. If you can’t make an argument in five sentences, don’t make it

    Next

    Checks Sean Thomas's Spectator articles. Notes all are over five sentences long.

    Feels smug he ignores Sean Thomas's turgid, low-IQ 'writing'.

    Then checks this post is under five sentences long... ;)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,141
    Eabhal said:

    Is there an issue with our prevailing southwesterly wind? If we dump migrants in life rafts just off France and they get blown into the shipping lanes, we just give the RNLI more work to do.

    I must say there's not been the usual Hate the RNLI this summer. Not sure why. Maybe someone has cottoned on to the fact it's about as popular with a large segment of Middle England as pissing into the National Trust's gingham-covered apple chutney.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,628
    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Holiday finished, back home now and have several hundred emails to read!

    My viewpoint on holiday emails - anything important will be brought to your attention by someone who actually needs an answer - so anything in your mailbox isn't that important.

    My mailbox is full of items from JIRA so it's really not that important.
    Mailbox rule putting everything from JIRA in a sub folder you never read….
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,869
    Stocky said:

    Great to see you write a header DA.

    Regarding the possible solution, what is to stop the skipper pocketing the bribe and heading back to France a bit before doing a U turn to try again?

    You make it clear that the boat only has enough fuel to reach France.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,676
    Leon said:

    I’m not going to wade through. 98 paragraphs of quasi-military crepitations first thing in the morning. If you can’t make an argument in five sentences, don’t make it

    Next

    TikTok brain. It's a good article and demonstrates the military babble BTL is a choice, not a condition.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,102
    Stocky said:

    Great to see you write a header DA.

    Regarding the possible solution, what is to stop the skipper pocketing the bribe and heading back to France a bit before doing a U turn to try again?

    Particularly as they now have a seaworthy boat
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,869
    Eabhal said:

    Is there an issue with our prevailing southwesterly wind? If we dump migrants in life rafts just off France and they get blown into the shipping lanes, we just give the RNLI more work to do.

    You might have to tow them further, around Brittany into the Bay of Biscay.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,869
    TOPPING said:

    If not tow backs then the British government will have to do something.

    As a noted PB-er not so long ago pointed out in a whole post on the matter, it is not the measly numbers (although growing) that is the issue, it is that these boats are the most visible and literal (hi Leon) manifestation of the government's lack of control. Over our borders in this instance and, people will inevitably extrapolate, over other parts of the economy also.

    Is why it's so dangerous.

    As for practical measures to stop them? F**k knows.

    I feel that tow backs are close to becoming inevitable. If Labour don't do it then Farage will.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,699
    edited 7:52AM

    I also love the takedown of "why can't we just tow them back - the Australians did". No, we can't because geography here and because the Aussies didn't tow migrant boats back. But apart from that, top idea...

    May be we can sequester Brecqhou? Since it’s part of the Duchy of Normandy we can pretend they never left France?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,141
    edited 7:51AM

    Eabhal said:

    Is there an issue with our prevailing southwesterly wind? If we dump migrants in life rafts just off France and they get blown into the shipping lanes, we just give the RNLI more work to do.

    You might have to tow them further, around Brittany into the Bay of Biscay.
    And what is going on off the sceptred isle of Albion while the boat defensive is off station for even longer?
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,301
    Leon said:

    Mr @Dura_Ace also misunderstands the word “approbation”. It means “formal or enthusiastic approval”. The sentence “approbation and sanctions” is therefore nonsense

    The posh word he is forlornly seeking is “disapprobation” = “formal or severe disapproval”

    Frankly, the whole thing is jejeune

    Fight! Fight!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,786
    MattW said:

    Carnyx said:

    MattW said:

    Thanks for clarifying the geography Dura. Presumably, there's not much stopping the French doing the same thing, dropping boat people somewhere where their only option is to land in Cornwall, like some sadistic game of ping-pong?

    No no, we hold all the cards. Sovereignty is us getting to tell foreigners what to do in their own country. If we tow a boat back or land a plane then the forrin will do what we bally well tell them.
    Isn't there a geographical spot called "The Dura" somewhere? I have various types of country in my head, but I'm I'll get it wrong. I may mean "The Jura", which is aiui somewhere mountain-foresty in Western Switzerland.

    Since @Leon is up and about, perhaps he can advise?
    Dura Den, in the middle of Fife (a much neglected county, full of C18 high farming and lovely coastal scenery and fishertowns, and a more than decent university).

    Sounds like DA's worskhop, but in facr Den in Scots = wooded ravine, etc., compare S. English dene.

    Famous for its fossils. I've seen huge slabs of sandstone covered in primeval armoured fishes that died in some drought in Devonian times.

    https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/assets/university/schools/school-of-earth-and-environmental-sciences/documents/geoheritage-leaflets/dura-den.pdf
    https://collections.st-andrews.ac.uk/item/dura-den-fossil-fish/762345
    Or the Paps of Jura, on, erm, Jura (in the Hebrides).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paps_of_Jura
    That's where else I've seen it - it's a whisky.
    Without going all Leon about it, I was invited to spend a week on Jura by a friend of a friend

    There are a number of fun activities for tourists.

    You can visit George Orwell's house. We didn't do that. It was raining.

    You can climb the paps. We didn't do that. It was foggy.

    You can visit the distillery. We didn't do that. Our host was the minister's daughter, and therefore inappropriate.

    We did go to the pub once. She didn't come with us.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,869
    Dopermean said:

    Would these inflatables survive being towed? I doubt they've been designed for towing loads, so you may end up tearing them apart and a lot of people in the sea.

    You transfer people into a more seaworthy boat if necessary.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,102

    Stocky said:

    Great to see you write a header DA.

    Regarding the possible solution, what is to stop the skipper pocketing the bribe and heading back to France a bit before doing a U turn to try again?

    You make it clear that the boat only has enough fuel to reach France.
    There is, I believe, fuel in France
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,497
    edited 7:55AM
    Thanks for the header, DA - concise and focused.

    Good morning

    Many thanks to @Dura_Ace for such an Informative piece

    The boats are totemic and toxic for politicians and Starmer's [and labour's] instinctively support asylum seekers and it is against their very nature to adopt the language of Farage so when Starmer starts shouting 'deport them' he just highlights Farage’s message

    Also in a few weeks we have Reeves embarking on a tax raising exercise, strikes looming in the public sector, and in October the Epping case in court

    None of this augurs well for labour

    From the Tory angle, I'd be concerned that Farage is manoeuvring to move on from this controversy, leaving Kemi, Jenrick and Philp taking narrowly dogmatic positions and holding the baby.

    He's well aware that there has not been much of a response from the public, and that the extreme Right in all its varied awfulness is at the core of things, driving certain continuing demonstrations.

    He's trying to exploit the extremism whilst keeping them at arms' length, as in the past - and it is beginning to cause Reform quite severe problems.

    Farage has been pivoting to more open-sided politics in several areas, which afaics is the opposite of the trajectory of the Conservative leadership.

    Perhaps it is like the storyline in the Beano where Minnie the Minx put a circle of black cloth over a manhole and told the "enemy" to watch out, who then jumped onto it "It's just a cloth". "But guess what's underneath?".
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,915
    Carnyx said:

    Meanwhile the BBC seems strangely excited by the news that ‘the Queen’ fought off a pervert in a train with a shoe in her teenage years, mentioning it on the hour and several times in between. The first 14 times they reported it I assumed they meant QEII and therefore imagined a young Elizabeth in tweeds beating a weirdo with a sensible brogue.
    A niche fantasy I accept..

    On further and brief inspection, it's a third hand story via Messrs B. Johnson and G. Harris. Well, fourth hand via the book author as well before one even gets to the Beeb/DT. .
    I did wonder..
    I assume the fawning BBC would never have run it without Windsor (very) Ltd approval though.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,596

    Eabhal said:

    Is there an issue with our prevailing southwesterly wind? If we dump migrants in life rafts just off France and they get blown into the shipping lanes, we just give the RNLI more work to do.

    You might have to tow them further, around Brittany into the Bay of Biscay.
    Pretty stormy in them parts, cap'n.

    (One of the reasons for the surge in Channel boat crossings has been the marine engineering one; boats that are just strong enough to make it across the narrow bit of the Channel on a relatively nice day.)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 64,730
    edited 7:58AM
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    I’m not going to wade through. 98 paragraphs of quasi-military crepitations first thing in the morning. If you can’t make an argument in five sentences, don’t make it

    Next

    TikTok brain. It's a good article and demonstrates the military babble BTL is a choice, not a condition.
    I’m teasing @Dura_Ace as he has, in the past, been incredibly rude to other prolix commenters. The threader is informative and useful

    His misuse of “approbation” is surprisingly poor form, however
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,676
    edited 7:55AM
    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    Is there an issue with our prevailing southwesterly wind? If we dump migrants in life rafts just off France and they get blown into the shipping lanes, we just give the RNLI more work to do.

    I must say there's not been the usual Hate the RNLI this summer. Not sure why. Maybe someone has cottoned on to the fact it's about as popular with a large segment of Middle England as pissing into the National Trust's gingham-covered apple chutney.
    Think they've got distracted. The people who used to chop down ULEZ cameras are now painting roundabouts instead; not a bad outcome if you ask me.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,869

    Stocky said:

    Great to see you write a header DA.

    Regarding the possible solution, what is to stop the skipper pocketing the bribe and heading back to France a bit before doing a U turn to try again?

    You make it clear that the boat only has enough fuel to reach France.
    There is, I believe, fuel in France
    Sure. But France is square one.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,869
    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    Is there an issue with our prevailing southwesterly wind? If we dump migrants in life rafts just off France and they get blown into the shipping lanes, we just give the RNLI more work to do.

    You might have to tow them further, around Brittany into the Bay of Biscay.
    And what is going on off the sceptred isle of Albion while the boat defensive is off station for even longer?
    A longer tow increases the resources required to implement the scheme, but it does not make the scheme impossible.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,444
    Dopermean said:

    Would these inflatables survive being towed? I doubt they've been designed for towing loads, so you may end up tearing them apart and a lot of people in the sea.

    If you read the header, the way the Australian system works if the refugees get fished out onto a patrol boat, shifted to a convenient location just outside Indonesian territorial waters, then given a decent lifeboat just sufficiently fuelled to get them back to Indonesia. They aren't being sent back on dodgy inflatables.

    This also potentially addresses the "efficiency" problem - have 2 or 3 patrol boats, each one covers the channel for a few hours scooping up all the boat crossings that enter UK waters, then makes one run to somewhere convenient to send a convoy of the days winnings back to France. Once you've fished the people out and sunk their inflatable, you don't have to immediately head for the drop-off point for their return - you can wait until you've a full load.

    As with all these deterrents, it will work, providing we are able to do it to 99.9% of the small boats.
    If there is a 30% chance of making it through, the boat people will still come. We have to make it impossible to succeed for them to stop trying.

  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,699
    MattW said:

    Thanks for clarifying the geography Dura. Presumably, there's not much stopping the French doing the same thing, dropping boat people somewhere where their only option is to land in Cornwall, like some sadistic game of ping-pong?

    No no, we hold all the cards. Sovereignty is us getting to tell foreigners what to do in their own country. If we tow a boat back or land a plane then the forrin will do what we bally well tell them.
    Isn't there a geographical spot called "The Dura" somewhere? I have various types of country in my head, but I'm I'll get it wrong. I may mean "The Jura", which is aiui somewhere mountain-foresty in Western Switzerland.

    Since @Leon is up and about, perhaps he can advise?
    There was a rather dodgy German drugs company called Dura.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,141

    Eabhal said:

    Is there an issue with our prevailing southwesterly wind? If we dump migrants in life rafts just off France and they get blown into the shipping lanes, we just give the RNLI more work to do.

    You might have to tow them further, around Brittany into the Bay of Biscay.
    Pretty stormy in them parts, cap'n.

    (One of the reasons for the surge in Channel boat crossings has been the marine engineering one; boats that are just strong enough to make it across the narrow bit of the Channel on a relatively nice day.)
    So the chaps end up with what is little better than a holiday dinghy swapped for a nice seaworthy boat capable of coping with Biscay? They can then refuel and head anywhere along the southern coast?
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,786

    MattW said:

    Thanks for clarifying the geography Dura. Presumably, there's not much stopping the French doing the same thing, dropping boat people somewhere where their only option is to land in Cornwall, like some sadistic game of ping-pong?

    No no, we hold all the cards. Sovereignty is us getting to tell foreigners what to do in their own country. If we tow a boat back or land a plane then the forrin will do what we bally well tell them.
    Isn't there a geographical spot called "The Dura" somewhere? I have various types of country in my head, but I'm I'll get it wrong. I may mean "The Jura", which is aiui somewhere mountain-foresty in Western Switzerland.

    Since @Leon is up and about, perhaps he can advise?
    There was a rather dodgy German drugs company called Dura.
    I used to deal with a company called Adwest Dura in the car industry.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 64,730
    I disagree that the boats are going to be the “defining issue of the next election”

    The next GE could be four years away. Just think what’s happened in the last five years….

    Exactly

    It’s more than likely that the boats will be sorted and finished one way or another by 2029, or overshadowed by several larger and more pressing issues

  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,102
    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    Is there an issue with our prevailing southwesterly wind? If we dump migrants in life rafts just off France and they get blown into the shipping lanes, we just give the RNLI more work to do.

    You might have to tow them further, around Brittany into the Bay of Biscay.
    Pretty stormy in them parts, cap'n.

    (One of the reasons for the surge in Channel boat crossings has been the marine engineering one; boats that are just strong enough to make it across the narrow bit of the Channel on a relatively nice day.)
    So the chaps end up with what is little better than a holiday dinghy swapped for a nice seaworthy boat capable of coping with Biscay? They can then refuel and head anywhere along the southern coast?
    It would be interesting to know why this didn't happen to the Australians. Maybe they tipped off the Indonesians who could confiscate the boat
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,869
    TOPPING said:

    If not tow backs then the British government will have to do something.

    As a noted PB-er not so long ago pointed out in a whole post on the matter, it is not the measly numbers (although growing) that is the issue, it is that these boats are the most visible and literal (hi Leon) manifestation of the government's lack of control. Over our borders in this instance and, people will inevitably extrapolate, over other parts of the economy also.

    Is why it's so dangerous.

    As for practical measures to stop them? F**k knows.

    It is doing something. The August weather has been glorious. Perfect for small boat crossings. And yet
    Lowest number of people in small boats since 2021
    Lowest number of boat crossings since 2019
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,141
    theProle said:

    Dopermean said:

    Would these inflatables survive being towed? I doubt they've been designed for towing loads, so you may end up tearing them apart and a lot of people in the sea.

    If you read the header, the way the Australian system works if the refugees get fished out onto a patrol boat, shifted to a convenient location just outside Indonesian territorial waters, then given a decent lifeboat just sufficiently fuelled to get them back to Indonesia. They aren't being sent back on dodgy inflatables.

    This also potentially addresses the "efficiency" problem - have 2 or 3 patrol boats, each one covers the channel for a few hours scooping up all the boat crossings that enter UK waters, then makes one run to somewhere convenient to send a convoy of the days winnings back to France. Once you've fished the people out and sunk their inflatable, you don't have to immediately head for the drop-off point for their return - you can wait until you've a full load.

    As with all these deterrents, it will work, providing we are able to do it to 99.9% of the small boats.
    If there is a 30% chance of making it through, the boat people will still come. We have to make it impossible to succeed for them to stop trying.

    Mm. That's a rational argument. But there need to be enough patrol; boats to provide cover - add some more for down time, refuelling, maintenance at base. Crews too. Night shifts. Think about the timings involved in a typical daily cycle, bearing in mind the passengers can't be dumped late in the day or at night. Or in shipping lanes.

    And there is at least one easy way to circumvent this - saturate the patrol boats by sailing all at once (which tends to happen in good weather anyway).

    The fact the Tories never seriously addressed the issue makes me wonder if someone crunched the numbers.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,404
    The illegal immigrants who are trying to claim false asylum are to blame for any genuine asylum seekers being poorly treated. The temptation to put it on the public, who are rightly concerned about tens of thousands of chancers slipping into their society, should be resisted.

    I doubt many people are against genuine refugees being given a home and integrated into British life, but what we are actually getting is thousands of young men with no real claim to be here, making Britain resemble the third world they came from
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,892
    Sandpit said:

    Holiday finished, back home now and have several hundred emails to read!

    It wasn't until I had to drop to part time working that I realised how much time is required simply to read emails, never mind responding to them.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,356

    Stocky said:

    Great to see you write a header DA.

    Regarding the possible solution, what is to stop the skipper pocketing the bribe and heading back to France a bit before doing a U turn to try again?

    Particularly as they now have a seaworthy boat
    Which we get back or which they can use again for another attempt? I'm thinking Rwanda is a least-worse options at this point.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,615
    Eabhal said:

    Is there an issue with our prevailing southwesterly wind? If we dump migrants in life rafts just off France and they get blown into the shipping lanes, we just give the RNLI more work to do.

    The last few days an easterly wind stopped all the pleasure boats from sailing in Llandudno and our son said on two shouts the wind caused problems for the operation of the RNLI inshore boat

    As far as dumping the migrants in international waters off France no doubt in some type of lifeboat just seems a fantasy
  • boulayboulay Posts: 7,049

    TOPPING said:

    If not tow backs then the British government will have to do something.

    As a noted PB-er not so long ago pointed out in a whole post on the matter, it is not the measly numbers (although growing) that is the issue, it is that these boats are the most visible and literal (hi Leon) manifestation of the government's lack of control. Over our borders in this instance and, people will inevitably extrapolate, over other parts of the economy also.

    Is why it's so dangerous.

    As for practical measures to stop them? F**k knows.

    It is doing something. The August weather has been glorious. Perfect for small boat crossings. And yet
    Lowest number of people in small boats since 2021
    Lowest number of boat crossings since 2019
    The boats were a diversion, whilst everyone was looking at them we didn’t notice the gangs building a dirty long tunnel under the channel.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 64,730
    isam said:

    The illegal immigrants who are trying to claim false asylum are to blame for any genuine asylum seekers being poorly treated. The temptation to put it on the public, who are rightly concerned about tens of thousands of chancers slipping into their society, should be resisted.

    I doubt many people are against genuine refugees being given a home and integrated into British life, but what we are actually getting is thousands of young men with no real claim to be here, making Britain resemble the third world they came from

    I also had no idea - until today - that once they get asylum status they can ask to be reunited with their family - wife and six kids in Aleppo or Kabul - and that is nearly automatically allowed. We apply none of the usual criteria - English language, spousal income

    In other words we have set up an informal and easily gamed migration route for entire families, and unsurprisingly chancers are exploiting it

    We have to cease offering all asylum for five or ten years and deport hundreds of thousands already here
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,615
    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    Is there an issue with our prevailing southwesterly wind? If we dump migrants in life rafts just off France and they get blown into the shipping lanes, we just give the RNLI more work to do.

    I must say there's not been the usual Hate the RNLI this summer. Not sure why. Maybe someone has cottoned on to the fact it's about as popular with a large segment of Middle England as pissing into the National Trust's gingham-covered apple chutney.
    For that the crews will be grateful, though why it is even an issue is unacceptable
  • LeonLeon Posts: 64,730

    TOPPING said:

    If not tow backs then the British government will have to do something.

    As a noted PB-er not so long ago pointed out in a whole post on the matter, it is not the measly numbers (although growing) that is the issue, it is that these boats are the most visible and literal (hi Leon) manifestation of the government's lack of control. Over our borders in this instance and, people will inevitably extrapolate, over other parts of the economy also.

    Is why it's so dangerous.

    As for practical measures to stop them? F**k knows.

    It is doing something. The August weather has been glorious. Perfect for small boat crossings. And yet
    Lowest number of people in small boats since 2021
    Lowest number of boat crossings since 2019
    According to the FT this is because the flow of migrants was stopped at the Bulgarian border, for a while, and this temporary ripple finally reached our shores

    If that’s true we can expect them to resume. If it is true that may explain why HMG is not crowing about its success - they don’t expect it to last
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 45,141

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    Is there an issue with our prevailing southwesterly wind? If we dump migrants in life rafts just off France and they get blown into the shipping lanes, we just give the RNLI more work to do.

    I must say there's not been the usual Hate the RNLI this summer. Not sure why. Maybe someone has cottoned on to the fact it's about as popular with a large segment of Middle England as pissing into the National Trust's gingham-covered apple chutney.
    For that the crews will be grateful, though why it is even an issue is unacceptable
    And the branch secretaries and shore volunteers!
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,186
    edited 8:16AM
    Leon said:

    isam said:

    The illegal immigrants who are trying to claim false asylum are to blame for any genuine asylum seekers being poorly treated. The temptation to put it on the public, who are rightly concerned about tens of thousands of chancers slipping into their society, should be resisted.

    I doubt many people are against genuine refugees being given a home and integrated into British life, but what we are actually getting is thousands of young men with no real claim to be here, making Britain resemble the third world they came from

    I also had no idea - until today - that once they get asylum status they can ask to be reunited with their family - wife and six kids in Aleppo or Kabul - and that is nearly automatically allowed. We apply none of the usual criteria - English language, spousal income

    In other words we have set up an informal and easily gamed migration route for entire families, and unsurprisingly chancers are exploiting it

    We have to cease offering all asylum for five or ten years and deport hundreds of thousands already here
    And those 'family' would be classed as legal immigrants.

    Its one of the reasons why 'dependants' have increased as a proportion of immigrants.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,892
    We've had some pretty gloomy predictions about the economic climate in the near future. Perhaps once the government grasps the finance nettle and makes all these savage cuts, the immigration issue will solve itself.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,356

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    Is there an issue with our prevailing southwesterly wind? If we dump migrants in life rafts just off France and they get blown into the shipping lanes, we just give the RNLI more work to do.

    You might have to tow them further, around Brittany into the Bay of Biscay.
    Pretty stormy in them parts, cap'n.

    (One of the reasons for the surge in Channel boat crossings has been the marine engineering one; boats that are just strong enough to make it across the narrow bit of the Channel on a relatively nice day.)
    So the chaps end up with what is little better than a holiday dinghy swapped for a nice seaworthy boat capable of coping with Biscay? They can then refuel and head anywhere along the southern coast?
    It would be interesting to know why this didn't happen to the Australians. Maybe they tipped off the Indonesians who could confiscate the boat
    We'd have to pay the French to do this.

    So far it's costing: the cost of patrols which would need to be comprehensive, the cash bribe, a gift of a seaworthy boat for each group plus payment to the French ...
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,869

    Eabhal said:

    Is there an issue with our prevailing southwesterly wind? If we dump migrants in life rafts just off France and they get blown into the shipping lanes, we just give the RNLI more work to do.

    You might have to tow them further, around Brittany into the Bay of Biscay.
    Pretty stormy in them parts, cap'n.

    (One of the reasons for the surge in Channel boat crossings has been the marine engineering one; boats that are just strong enough to make it across the narrow bit of the Channel on a relatively nice day.)
    Sure, but there are other suitable stretches of French coastline, the storminess might act as a future deterrent, and crossings mostly happen in the absence of storms for obvious reasons.

    The point being that people keep on coming up with factors that any tow back scheme would have to address as though they are sufficient to make the scheme impossible, and it's a mode of debate that's become increasingly prevalent, but is really annoying when the supposed show-stopping impediments are relatively minor things that can be dealt with.

    The question isn't whether it can be done, but whether it should be done, or whether there's a better way to tackle the problem.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,615
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Eabhal said:

    Is there an issue with our prevailing southwesterly wind? If we dump migrants in life rafts just off France and they get blown into the shipping lanes, we just give the RNLI more work to do.

    I must say there's not been the usual Hate the RNLI this summer. Not sure why. Maybe someone has cottoned on to the fact it's about as popular with a large segment of Middle England as pissing into the National Trust's gingham-covered apple chutney.
    For that the crews will be grateful, though why it is even an issue is unacceptable
    And the branch secretaries and shore volunteers!
    Indeed
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,676
    edited 8:15AM
    Carnyx said:

    theProle said:

    Dopermean said:

    Would these inflatables survive being towed? I doubt they've been designed for towing loads, so you may end up tearing them apart and a lot of people in the sea.

    If you read the header, the way the Australian system works if the refugees get fished out onto a patrol boat, shifted to a convenient location just outside Indonesian territorial waters, then given a decent lifeboat just sufficiently fuelled to get them back to Indonesia. They aren't being sent back on dodgy inflatables.

    This also potentially addresses the "efficiency" problem - have 2 or 3 patrol boats, each one covers the channel for a few hours scooping up all the boat crossings that enter UK waters, then makes one run to somewhere convenient to send a convoy of the days winnings back to France. Once you've fished the people out and sunk their inflatable, you don't have to immediately head for the drop-off point for their return - you can wait until you've a full load.

    As with all these deterrents, it will work, providing we are able to do it to 99.9% of the small boats.
    If there is a 30% chance of making it through, the boat people will still come. We have to make it impossible to succeed for them to stop trying.

    Mm. That's a rational argument. But there need to be enough patrol; boats to provide cover - add some more for down time, refuelling, maintenance at base. Crews too. Night shifts. Think about the timings involved in a typical daily cycle, bearing in mind the passengers can't be dumped late in the day or at night. Or in shipping lanes.

    And there is at least one easy way to circumvent this - saturate the patrol boats by sailing all at once (which tends to happen in good weather anyway).

    The fact the Tories never seriously addressed the issue makes me wonder if someone crunched the numbers.
    You don't need a 100% success rate, just enough to alter the risk/reward for c80% of migrants. It might not even need that; the smugglers currently enjoy scales of economy so if demand falls enough you might see a collapse in the market.

    That's why Labour's one in, one out policy might have a material effect on the numbers. The problem is we don't know what the counterfactual is; given how good the weather has been, it might have been thousands more without it.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 64,730

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    The illegal immigrants who are trying to claim false asylum are to blame for any genuine asylum seekers being poorly treated. The temptation to put it on the public, who are rightly concerned about tens of thousands of chancers slipping into their society, should be resisted.

    I doubt many people are against genuine refugees being given a home and integrated into British life, but what we are actually getting is thousands of young men with no real claim to be here, making Britain resemble the third world they came from

    I also had no idea - until today - that once they get asylum status they can ask to be reunited with their family - wife and six kids in Aleppo or Kabul - and that is nearly automatically allowed. We apply none of the usual criteria - English language, spousal income

    In other words we have set up an informal and easily gamed migration route for entire families, and unsurprisingly chancers are exploiting it

    We have to cease offering all asylum for five or ten years and deport hundreds of thousands already here
    And those 'family' would be classed as legal immigrants.

    Its one of the reasons why 'dependents' have increased as a proportion of immigrants.
    Like many Britons, I’m just fecking done with it

    ENOUGH

  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,699
    Leon said:

    Mr @Dura_Ace also misunderstands the word “approbation”. It means “formal or enthusiastic approval”. The sentence “approbation and sanctions” is therefore nonsense

    The posh word he is forlornly seeking is “disapprobation” = “formal or severe disapproval”

    Frankly, the whole thing is jejeune

    Methinks @Leon doesn’t like the competition…
  • LeonLeon Posts: 64,730

    Leon said:

    Mr @Dura_Ace also misunderstands the word “approbation”. It means “formal or enthusiastic approval”. The sentence “approbation and sanctions” is therefore nonsense

    The posh word he is forlornly seeking is “disapprobation” = “formal or severe disapproval”

    Frankly, the whole thing is jejeune

    Methinks @Leon doesn’t like the competition…
    I’ve never written a threader in my life. I only compose essays for folding money
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,356
    edited 8:19AM
    Leon said:

    isam said:

    The illegal immigrants who are trying to claim false asylum are to blame for any genuine asylum seekers being poorly treated. The temptation to put it on the public, who are rightly concerned about tens of thousands of chancers slipping into their society, should be resisted.

    I doubt many people are against genuine refugees being given a home and integrated into British life, but what we are actually getting is thousands of young men with no real claim to be here, making Britain resemble the third world they came from

    I also had no idea - until today - that once they get asylum status they can ask to be reunited with their family - wife and six kids in Aleppo or Kabul - and that is nearly automatically allowed. We apply none of the usual criteria - English language, spousal income

    In other words we have set up an informal and easily gamed migration route for entire families, and unsurprisingly chancers are exploiting it

    We have to cease offering all asylum for five or ten years and deport hundreds of thousands already here
    I think almost all British people support an asylum system - but in their minds this meant very few desperate cases via an international agreement where other countries each took a share. The result might be less than a hundred to the UK per year, say.

    This faulty understanding bears no comparison to how the asylum system is being used and abused today, often with legal and other services paid for from our taxes.

    It's not surprising the British are furious.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,977
    isam said:

    The illegal immigrants who are trying to claim false asylum are to blame for any genuine asylum seekers being poorly treated. The temptation to put it on the public, who are rightly concerned about tens of thousands of chancers slipping into their society, should be resisted.

    I doubt many people are against genuine refugees being given a home and integrated into British life, but what we are actually getting is thousands of young men with no real claim to be here, making Britain resemble the third world they came from

    I’m afraid the conversation has moved on . Reform and the Tories don’t want even genuine asylum seekers. If you’re non white and here legally you’re likely get more abuse as the atmosphere becomes even more toxic .
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,047
    James Lyons is out…

    The director of strategic communications replaced Matthew Doyle earlier this year, whose job was split in two. Lyons said: “It was an honour to be asked to come in. I’m proud to have helped to get a grip on Whitehall comms after what was a difficult few first months for the Government. It wasn’t just filling the grid. Launching the Plan for Change brought focus and direction. But I gave up a lot to come in and this was never intended as a long haul. When I came back from the summer break I told colleagues I was looking to leave by the end of the year. I’ve brought this forward to be part of the other changes.”

    Another comms director gone.

    https://order-order.com/2025/09/01/downing-street-communications-director-departs-in-personnel-shake-up/
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,597
    AnneJGP said:

    Sandpit said:

    Holiday finished, back home now and have several hundred emails to read!

    It wasn't until I had to drop to part time working that I realised how much time is required simply to read emails, never mind responding to them.
    I do wonder whether there is correlation or indeed causation between modern email overuse in work place and the productivity issues with public services.
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