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Unlikely villains: Sir Geoffrey Howe – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,645
edited August 25 in General
Unlikely villains: Sir Geoffrey Howe – politicalbetting.com

I really like Sir Geoffrey Howe, as Margaret Thatcher’s first Chancellor of the Exchequer he helped change the economy, shattering the policies that helped make the United Kingdom the sick man of Europe despite a lot of opprobrium at the time.

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Comments

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,768
    Whatever Howe said it was the poll tax which removed Thatcher and replaced her with Major. Major then scrapped the poll tax and replaced it with council tax.

    Had the relationship with Europe been pivotal then Tory MPs would have replaced her with Heseltine not Major
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,768
    Reform tells energy firms to get ready for fracking if they win the next general election

    "Get ready for fracking, Reform UK tells energy firms - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74172wlezwo
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,424
    Reform have the ability to stir up people about insane and costly ideas. The BGS survey indicates resources are there but unlikely to be recoverable. However the lack of substance to their claims (see their county councillors) doesn't seem to be a barrier to their progress.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,768
    Heath also hated Thatcher far more than Thatcher disliked Major, saying 'rejoice, rejoice, rejoice' when she was toppled in 1990 and openly backing Heseltine. Thatcher stayed neutral when Redwood challenged Major in 1995 though she managed to stop Clarke in 1997 by backing Hague and in 2001 was clear she preferred Portilllo or IDS to Clarke too. She never forgave Heseltine and Clarke's betrayal of her as well as disliking their pro EU views
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,708
    @peterrhague

    It’s hard to overstate what a disaster Boris Johnson turned out to be. It’s likely none of the present tensions would be happening in the UK if he hadn’t done this. The worst thing is, I couldn’t tell you if he did it on purpose or by accident. Either is quite possible.


  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,172
    HYUFD said:

    Reform tells energy firms to get ready for fracking if they win the next general election

    "Get ready for fracking, Reform UK tells energy firms - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74172wlezwo

    A guaranteed way to lose votes in return for nothing.

    Its 'reopen the pits' level of pointlessness.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,711
    HYUFD said:

    Reform tells energy firms to get ready for fracking if they win the next general election

    "Get ready for fracking, Reform UK tells energy firms - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74172wlezwo

    Having laid waste to the political landscape why not lay waste to the geographical landscape? Drill baby drill!

    Opencast mining on the slopes of Helvellyn and Snowdon could be a real money spinner for US mining interests and boost the UK balance of payments deficit.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,534
    HYUFD said:

    Reform tells energy firms to get ready for fracking if they win the next general election

    "Get ready for fracking, Reform UK tells energy firms - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74172wlezwo

    Fracking is one of those curious things where the populist party is proposing something unpopular;

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-britain-start-extracting-shale-gas

    Fairly consistently 50% against, 25% for.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,085

    HYUFD said:

    Reform tells energy firms to get ready for fracking if they win the next general election

    "Get ready for fracking, Reform UK tells energy firms - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74172wlezwo

    Fracking is one of those curious things where the populist party is proposing something unpopular;

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-britain-start-extracting-shale-gas

    Fairly consistently 50% against, 25% for.
    They are fracking things up.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,699
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Reform tells energy firms to get ready for fracking if they win the next general election

    "Get ready for fracking, Reform UK tells energy firms - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74172wlezwo

    Fracking is one of those curious things where the populist party is proposing something unpopular;

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-britain-start-extracting-shale-gas

    Fairly consistently 50% against, 25% for.
    They are fracking things up.
    Battlestar Galactica!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,085

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Reform tells energy firms to get ready for fracking if they win the next general election

    "Get ready for fracking, Reform UK tells energy firms - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74172wlezwo

    Fracking is one of those curious things where the populist party is proposing something unpopular;

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-britain-start-extracting-shale-gas

    Fairly consistently 50% against, 25% for.
    They are fracking things up.
    Battlestar Galactica!
    If Farage keeps proposing that, will his star gate blotted out?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,807
    Was a great speech though...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,711

    HYUFD said:

    Reform tells energy firms to get ready for fracking if they win the next general election

    "Get ready for fracking, Reform UK tells energy firms - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74172wlezwo

    A guaranteed way to lose votes in return for nothing.

    Its 'reopen the pits' level of pointlessness.
    Like Trump it sends a message to the RedWall rust belt.

    "We, the Party of Nigel Farage and Brexit will return the nation to the glorious years of pre-Harold Wilson empire". Moving on, " so we couldn't give you back coal mining and steel making, but we have given you back capital sentencing, grammar schools, red telephone boxes and sent the "foreigners" packing, what more do you want?"
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,085
    Yet another utility company trying things on.

    Just had a bill from Severn Trent estimating my usage at 35m3 for eight weeks.

    That's as much as a small industrial concern.

    We have had Discussions on that subject and they have backed down.

    If Farage wanted an easy hit, utility companies being ordered to pay £50 for every false bill would be insanely popular given that would mean we all got about a £200 bonus from companies we all hate anyway.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,936
    edited August 25
    They're now up to 760 arrests for writing 'Palestine Action'. This raises two interesting questions

    1. Will the courts be able to accomodate this number of people and their Zimmer frames?

    2. Will the beleagured Yvette Cooper still be in post when we find out the answer to question one?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,409

    Was a great speech though...

    Sir Geoffrey Howe was a Cambridge educated lawyer, the best of the best.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,172

    HYUFD said:

    Reform tells energy firms to get ready for fracking if they win the next general election

    "Get ready for fracking, Reform UK tells energy firms - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74172wlezwo

    Fracking is one of those curious things where the populist party is proposing something unpopular;

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-britain-start-extracting-shale-gas

    Fairly consistently 50% against, 25% for.
    Possibly more extreme when intensity of feeling is taken into account.

    People in unaffected areas might be vaguely in favour in hope of lower energy bills.

    People in affected areas will be deeply against because it is their lives which would be disrupted and their environments damaged.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,708

    Like Trump it sends a message to the RedWall rust belt.

    "We, the Party of Nigel Farage and Brexit will return the nation to the glorious years of pre-Harold Wilson empire". Moving on, " so we couldn't give you back coal mining and steel making, but we have given you back capital sentencing, grammar schools, red telephone boxes and sent the "foreigners" packing, what more do you want?"

    Rickets
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,807
    HYUFD said:

    Reform tells energy firms to get ready for fracking if they win the next general election

    "Get ready for fracking, Reform UK tells energy firms - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74172wlezwo

    Remember folks. Energy bills are Too High and wind turbines and pylons are ugly. So Refuk have a great idea:

    Lets
    1) Import lots more gas from foreigners. "Dependency on foreigners is great" says 30p Lee
    2) Frack your community and frack you too. People like having earthquakes, shake the woke away
    3) Import more electricity from foreigners.
    4) Buy more nuclear power stations from foreigners
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,956

    HYUFD said:

    Reform tells energy firms to get ready for fracking if they win the next general election

    "Get ready for fracking, Reform UK tells energy firms - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74172wlezwo

    A guaranteed way to lose votes in return for nothing.

    Its 'reopen the pits' level of pointlessness.
    It's about the vibe. Renewables are wimpy woke, fossils are what real men have for breakfast.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,085

    Was a great speech though...

    Sir Geoffrey Howe was a Cambridge educated lawyer, the best of the best.
    He was also Welsh, which makes him even more formidable.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,586
    HYUFD said:

    Reform tells energy firms to get ready for fracking if they win the next general election

    "Get ready for fracking, Reform UK tells energy firms - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74172wlezwo

    Are they going to subsidise it ?
    Absent that, I'd guess interest will be limited.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,711
    Scott_xP said:

    Like Trump it sends a message to the RedWall rust belt.

    "We, the Party of Nigel Farage and Brexit will return the nation to the glorious years of pre-Harold Wilson empire". Moving on, " so we couldn't give you back coal mining and steel making, but we have given you back capital sentencing, grammar schools, red telephone boxes and sent the "foreigners" packing, what more do you want?"

    Rickets
    Didn't the last incarnation of the Tories reintroduce measles and scurvy? Is that impressive enough to put on the side of a bus to rebuff Reform?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,711
    ydoethur said:

    Was a great speech though...

    Sir Geoffrey Howe was a Cambridge educated lawyer, the best of the best.
    He was also Welsh, which makes him even more formidable.
    Name me three good things to come out of Port Talbot? Road, rail and er...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,618

    Scott_xP said:

    @peterrhague

    It’s hard to overstate what a disaster Boris Johnson turned out to be. It’s likely none of the present tensions would be happening in the UK if he hadn’t done this. The worst thing is, I couldn’t tell you if he did it on purpose or by accident. Either is quite possible.


    Certainly obvious which politician and party rubbed the nation’s face in diversity.
    Boris, the midwife of PM Farage.
    Would be interesting to see that “non-EU” number shown ex Ukraine and Hong Kong, but that would distort the narrative somewhat.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,984
    ydoethur said:

    Was a great speech though...

    Sir Geoffrey Howe was a Cambridge educated lawyer, the best of the best.
    He was also Welsh, which makes him even more formidable.
    And being Welsh and a Cambridge educated lawyer were subordinate to him being a Wykehamist for the source of his greatness.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,619
    One of the big lime trees at the end of the road has shed most of its leaves in the past few days. Hmmm.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,172
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Reform tells energy firms to get ready for fracking if they win the next general election

    "Get ready for fracking, Reform UK tells energy firms - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74172wlezwo

    A guaranteed way to lose votes in return for nothing.

    Its 'reopen the pits' level of pointlessness.
    It's about the vibe. Renewables are wimpy woke, fossils are what real men have for breakfast.
    Its cosplaying they're Americans.

    The problem is that there are a lot more people living in West Yorkshire and north Derbyshire than west Texas and North Dakota.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,711
    Eabhal said:

    One of the big lime trees at the end of the road has shed most of its leaves in the past few days. Hmmm.

    Christmas stock in Tesco from next Monday! The nights are drawing in...
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,876

    Scott_xP said:

    @peterrhague

    It’s hard to overstate what a disaster Boris Johnson turned out to be. It’s likely none of the present tensions would be happening in the UK if he hadn’t done this. The worst thing is, I couldn’t tell you if he did it on purpose or by accident. Either is quite possible.


    At the time I remember plenty of Brexiteers saying things like "it's not about the numbers, it's about control" and claiming that immigration from the Commonwealth would be less unpopular with the sort of people who don't like immigration than immigration from the EU. I have to say that both arguments seemed implausible at the time.
    With the odd exception, I don't think immigration from the commonwealth is a problem. Immigration from India is very visible in my part of the world, but it isn't really a problem: these are by and large skilled immigrants whom Britain has sought and who integrate easily. The problem is illegals and dubious asylum seekers from the Middle East and North Africa.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,807
    Scribbling down ideas this Bank Holiday monday as a stack of my videos upload.

    Reform UK are going to be very prominent in one of the two constituencies I am looking to be selected in.

    "Tell them to Frack Off"
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,936
    How does an Israeli get his hair cut around here?

    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/IqBypvEq5MM
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,619
    Roger said:

    They're now up to 760 arrests for writing 'Palestine Action'. This raises two interesting questions

    1. Will the courts be able to accomodate this number of people and their Zimmer frames?

    2. Will the beleagured Yvette Cooper still be in post when we find out the answer to question one?

    Bunch of people doing Nazi salutes in Glasgow over the weekend who haven't had the same treatment. Whatever the technicalities of the law, the outcome of it is getting increasingly absurd.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,586
    The GOP are so stupid these days that they can't even recall who was president in 2020.

    DeSantis: We got shortchanged in the last census. That was the Biden Administration’s doing. We are asking them award us another seat, that would trigger a new map.
    https://x.com/Acyn/status/1959420907379970220


  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,670

    Scott_xP said:

    @peterrhague

    It’s hard to overstate what a disaster Boris Johnson turned out to be. It’s likely none of the present tensions would be happening in the UK if he hadn’t done this. The worst thing is, I couldn’t tell you if he did it on purpose or by accident. Either is quite possible.


    At the time I remember plenty of Brexiteers saying things like "it's not about the numbers, it's about control" and claiming that immigration from the Commonwealth would be less unpopular with the sort of people who don't like immigration than immigration from the EU. I have to say that both arguments seemed implausible at the time.
    Those leaflets the leave campaign delivered in east London and Birmingham promising our Asian communities that Brexit would make it easier for their families to come over, certainly weren’t dishonest. Even if choosing carefully the areas where they were delivered was perhaps rather less honest.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,534

    HYUFD said:

    Reform tells energy firms to get ready for fracking if they win the next general election

    "Get ready for fracking, Reform UK tells energy firms - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74172wlezwo

    Remember folks. Energy bills are Too High and wind turbines and pylons are ugly. So Refuk have a great idea:

    Lets
    1) Import lots more gas from foreigners. "Dependency on foreigners is great" says 30p Lee
    2) Frack your community and frack you too. People like having earthquakes, shake the woke away
    3) Import more electricity from foreigners.
    4) Buy more nuclear power stations from foreigners
    Especially given how much wind and solar is pencilled in by 2029. Even if you don't like the contractual basis, it's still going to be there, supplying electricity, and the costs are pretty much all upfront.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,670

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Reform tells energy firms to get ready for fracking if they win the next general election

    "Get ready for fracking, Reform UK tells energy firms - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74172wlezwo

    A guaranteed way to lose votes in return for nothing.

    Its 'reopen the pits' level of pointlessness.
    It's about the vibe. Renewables are wimpy woke, fossils are what real men have for breakfast.
    Its cosplaying they're Americans.

    The problem is that there are a lot more people living in West Yorkshire and north Derbyshire than west Texas and North Dakota.
    More fundamentally, in the US, the landowner owns the mineral rights beneath their property, and gets a payout if it is fracked under. In the UK the crown owns them, and the government doesn’t need to pay a penny.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,708
    Eabhal said:

    One of the big lime trees at the end of the road has shed most of its leaves in the past few days. Hmmm.

    Drought stress
  • LeonLeon Posts: 64,585
    edited August 25

    Scott_xP said:

    @peterrhague

    It’s hard to overstate what a disaster Boris Johnson turned out to be. It’s likely none of the present tensions would be happening in the UK if he hadn’t done this. The worst thing is, I couldn’t tell you if he did it on purpose or by accident. Either is quite possible.


    At the time I remember plenty of Brexiteers saying things like "it's not about the numbers, it's about control" and claiming that immigration from the Commonwealth would be less unpopular with the sort of people who don't like immigration than immigration from the EU. I have to say that both arguments seemed implausible at the time.
    Then why didn’t Remainers use that as a campaign slogan?

    “Stay in Europe so most immigrants are white and Christian”

    I think we know why. Yet now they hypocritically whine
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,214
    Eabhal said:

    One of the big lime trees at the end of the road has shed most of its leaves in the past few days. Hmmm.

    I've noticed a lot of the leaves on the trees in the woods near our house are turning brown in the last week. It seems very early. I suspect the drought has quite a lot to do with it. Our groundwater has never recovered from the exceptionally dry spring. Even when it rains at this time of year too much of the water runs off hard soil so the burns get a sudden boost and then its gone.

    The fields around are house are also largely harvested now and most of the hay has been baled and stored away. In the morning we have had several misty mornings with a real Autumnal feel about them.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,498
    Eabhal said:

    One of the big lime trees at the end of the road has shed most of its leaves in the past few days. Hmmm.

    Good morning

    An interesting story about a lime tree

    Homeowner believed it was OK to chop down tree but it's cost her 13 years later

    https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/owner-big-house-believed-ok-32337838#ICID=Android_DailyPostNewsApp_AppShare
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,619
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @peterrhague

    It’s hard to overstate what a disaster Boris Johnson turned out to be. It’s likely none of the present tensions would be happening in the UK if he hadn’t done this. The worst thing is, I couldn’t tell you if he did it on purpose or by accident. Either is quite possible.


    At the time I remember plenty of Brexiteers saying things like "it's not about the numbers, it's about control" and claiming that immigration from the Commonwealth would be less unpopular with the sort of people who don't like immigration than immigration from the EU. I have to say that both arguments seemed implausible at the time.
    Then why didn’t Remainers use that as a campaign slogan?

    “Stay in Europe so most immigrants are white and Christian”

    I think we know why. Yet now they hypocritical whine
    I think that point was made at the time actually, though not in those terms. There's a reason Farage focussed on Turkey joining rather than Dutch students and Polish plumbers.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,534
    DavidL said:

    I cannot regard Howe as a villain. It is not his fault that the Tories obsessed about Europe for the subsequent 30 years to the detriment of themselves and the country. It is not is fault that Thatcher went on too long undoing some of the good that she had done with his considerable assistance.

    What I am concerned about is where are the Howes of today? He was a serious intellectual heavyweight who thought deeply about public policy and the public good. Like every human he wasn't always right but he was deeply focused on that public good, ahead even of party political considerations. I cannot think of his equivalent in the House of Commons today. Instead, our most prominent politicians are interested in sound bites, social media, clickbait and, above all, themselves. They are obsessed with what sounds good rather than what is good. Gestures instead of substance. It's sad.

    Edit, see this fracking nonsense this morning.

    It's sad, but it's what we vote for. Politicians who try to do good more than sounding good (Stewart? May? maybe Starmer?) end up in the dumpster pretty quickly.

    Of course, it would be brilliant to have someone who talks a good game whilst also doing a good game, but I don't think we can wait for one of them.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,889

    HYUFD said:

    Reform tells energy firms to get ready for fracking if they win the next general election

    "Get ready for fracking, Reform UK tells energy firms - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74172wlezwo

    Remember folks. Energy bills are Too High and wind turbines and pylons are ugly. So Refuk have a great idea:

    Lets
    1) Import lots more gas from foreigners. "Dependency on foreigners is great" says 30p Lee
    2) Frack your community and frack you too. People like having earthquakes, shake the woke away
    3) Import more electricity from foreigners.
    4) Buy more nuclear power stations from foreigners
    Especially given how much wind and solar is pencilled in by 2029. Even if you don't like the contractual basis, it's still going to be there, supplying electricity, and the costs are pretty much all upfront.
    As others have commented, it’s cosplay MAGA. They get all their political reference points from American social media and then copy paste them into the UK milieu with scarcely any adjustment save a bit of good old British class system overlay.

    There’s a sizeable minority of the country that would really quite like to be American, though. Always has been. So they won’t fall on totally deaf ears.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,705
    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @peterrhague

    It’s hard to overstate what a disaster Boris Johnson turned out to be. It’s likely none of the present tensions would be happening in the UK if he hadn’t done this. The worst thing is, I couldn’t tell you if he did it on purpose or by accident. Either is quite possible.


    At the time I remember plenty of Brexiteers saying things like "it's not about the numbers, it's about control" and claiming that immigration from the Commonwealth would be less unpopular with the sort of people who don't like immigration than immigration from the EU. I have to say that both arguments seemed implausible at the time.
    Those leaflets the leave campaign delivered in east London and Birmingham promising our Asian communities that Brexit would make it easier for their families to come over, certainly weren’t dishonest. Even if choosing carefully the areas where they were delivered was perhaps rather less honest.
    Yes, they went down well in Leicester too.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,711
    Cookie said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @peterrhague

    It’s hard to overstate what a disaster Boris Johnson turned out to be. It’s likely none of the present tensions would be happening in the UK if he hadn’t done this. The worst thing is, I couldn’t tell you if he did it on purpose or by accident. Either is quite possible.


    At the time I remember plenty of Brexiteers saying things like "it's not about the numbers, it's about control" and claiming that immigration from the Commonwealth would be less unpopular with the sort of people who don't like immigration than immigration from the EU. I have to say that both arguments seemed implausible at the time.
    With the odd exception, I don't think immigration from the commonwealth is a problem. Immigration from India is very visible in my part of the world, but it isn't really a problem: these are by and large skilled immigrants whom Britain has sought and who integrate easily. The problem is illegals and dubious asylum seekers from the Middle East and North Africa.
    I am not sure your Labour -Boris-Labour-Reform voter will see it quite like that.

    We left the EU because we thought FOM gave us too many foreigners, so Brexit kicked out the foreigners, but we needed more foreigners so Johnson brought in up to a million foreign workers a year from the Indian sub-continent. I am not sure how you sell that politically as a positive.

    Your best strategy which is the one Badenoch, Philp and Jenrick are touting is if there is a problem with immigration it started on July 5th 2024. Perhaps you could try calling the "Boriswave" the "Starmerwave".
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,085
    IanB2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Reform tells energy firms to get ready for fracking if they win the next general election

    "Get ready for fracking, Reform UK tells energy firms - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74172wlezwo

    A guaranteed way to lose votes in return for nothing.

    Its 'reopen the pits' level of pointlessness.
    It's about the vibe. Renewables are wimpy woke, fossils are what real men have for breakfast.
    Its cosplaying they're Americans.

    The problem is that there are a lot more people living in West Yorkshire and north Derbyshire than west Texas and North Dakota.
    More fundamentally, in the US, the landowner owns the mineral rights beneath their property, and gets a payout if it is fracked under. In the UK the crown owns them, and the government doesn’t need to pay a penny.
    Are you sure of that? If so the law must have changed since the 19th century given the fortunes made by landowners whose land was mined for coal and iron ore.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,936
    Scott_xP said:

    @peterrhague

    It’s hard to overstate what a disaster Boris Johnson turned out to be. It’s likely none of the present tensions would be happening in the UK if he hadn’t done this. The worst thing is, I couldn’t tell you if he did it on purpose or by accident. Either is quite possible.


    That should be on 48 sheet posters and plastered on sites all the way along the East coat
  • IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @peterrhague

    It’s hard to overstate what a disaster Boris Johnson turned out to be. It’s likely none of the present tensions would be happening in the UK if he hadn’t done this. The worst thing is, I couldn’t tell you if he did it on purpose or by accident. Either is quite possible.


    At the time I remember plenty of Brexiteers saying things like "it's not about the numbers, it's about control" and claiming that immigration from the Commonwealth would be less unpopular with the sort of people who don't like immigration than immigration from the EU. I have to say that both arguments seemed implausible at the time.
    Those leaflets the leave campaign delivered in east London and Birmingham promising our Asian communities that Brexit would make it easier for their families to come over, certainly weren’t dishonest. Even if choosing carefully the areas where they were delivered was perhaps rather less honest.
    I once spoke to a South Asian chiropodist from Hounslow about the time of the Brexit debate, and he was in no doubt that his community was voting Leave precisely to make it easier to get family members into the UK. OK, that's mere anecdotage, based on a sub-sample of 1, but I wonder how widespread that analysis might have been.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 64,585
    edited August 25
    If reform are proposing fracking then isn’t this what the centrist duds of PB have been demanding? A party willing to commit to difficult and unpopular things that will benefit the nation long term?

    Isn’t that to be applauded? Maybe not, if it’s from nigel

    You can argue that fracking will never work in the UK but that’s a different argument. It is also a compromised argument because we know - we literally know - that Putin’s Russia has spent a decade trying to swing the argument against fracking in Europe (in the alleged science and in the voters’ minds) by pumping out disinformation so that we remain reliant on Russia for oil and gas

    Fuck Russia. Try fracking

    This is two good policies from reform in a row. Actual policies for migration and now an actual policy on energy. Both better than anything from Lab or Con
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,846
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @peterrhague

    It’s hard to overstate what a disaster Boris Johnson turned out to be. It’s likely none of the present tensions would be happening in the UK if he hadn’t done this. The worst thing is, I couldn’t tell you if he did it on purpose or by accident. Either is quite possible.


    Certainly obvious which politician and party rubbed the nation’s face in diversity.
    Boris, the midwife of PM Farage.
    Would be interesting to see that “non-EU” number shown ex Ukraine and Hong Kong, but that would distort the narrative somewhat.
    A cursory look at the numbers suggests a total of c.200k for Ukraine and 150k for HK. I’m assuming the chart works with quarters, those numbers don”t even cover increases in some of the single quarters.

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,172
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @peterrhague

    It’s hard to overstate what a disaster Boris Johnson turned out to be. It’s likely none of the present tensions would be happening in the UK if he hadn’t done this. The worst thing is, I couldn’t tell you if he did it on purpose or by accident. Either is quite possible.


    Certainly obvious which politician and party rubbed the nation’s face in diversity.
    Boris, the midwife of PM Farage.
    Would be interesting to see that “non-EU” number shown ex Ukraine and Hong Kong, but that would distort the narrative somewhat.
    Or students.

    Or health and care workers.

    On the latter, extra NHS workers funded by not giving money to the EU.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,711
    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @peterrhague

    It’s hard to overstate what a disaster Boris Johnson turned out to be. It’s likely none of the present tensions would be happening in the UK if he hadn’t done this. The worst thing is, I couldn’t tell you if he did it on purpose or by accident. Either is quite possible.


    That should be on 48 sheet posters and plastered on sites all the way along the East coat
    So the asylum seekers see it on the billboards in Great Yarmouth as they scramble up the beach from their small boats?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,498

    HYUFD said:

    Reform tells energy firms to get ready for fracking if they win the next general election

    "Get ready for fracking, Reform UK tells energy firms - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74172wlezwo

    A guaranteed way to lose votes in return for nothing.

    Its 'reopen the pits' level of pointlessness.
    Like Trump it sends a message to the RedWall rust belt.

    "We, the Party of Nigel Farage and Brexit will return the nation to the glorious years of pre-Harold Wilson empire". Moving on, " so we couldn't give you back coal mining and steel making, but we have given you back capital sentencing, grammar schools, red telephone boxes and sent the "foreigners" packing, what more do you want?"
    Good morning

    Wasn't @HYUFD wanting to return to the Victorian era last night

    What is it with the right that live in so much in the past and never understood the motto - 'adapt adopt and improv'

    We will be having children becoming chimney sweeps next !!!!!!!!!!!

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,670
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Reform tells energy firms to get ready for fracking if they win the next general election

    "Get ready for fracking, Reform UK tells energy firms - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74172wlezwo

    A guaranteed way to lose votes in return for nothing.

    Its 'reopen the pits' level of pointlessness.
    It's about the vibe. Renewables are wimpy woke, fossils are what real men have for breakfast.
    Its cosplaying they're Americans.

    The problem is that there are a lot more people living in West Yorkshire and north Derbyshire than west Texas and North Dakota.
    More fundamentally, in the US, the landowner owns the mineral rights beneath their property, and gets a payout if it is fracked under. In the UK the crown owns them, and the government doesn’t need to pay a penny.
    Are you sure of that? If so the law must have changed since the 19th century given the fortunes made by landowners whose land was mined for coal and iron ore.
    Mined from installations placed on the surface. Whereas fracking can be done horizontally from an installation some distance away.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,777
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @peterrhague

    It’s hard to overstate what a disaster Boris Johnson turned out to be. It’s likely none of the present tensions would be happening in the UK if he hadn’t done this. The worst thing is, I couldn’t tell you if he did it on purpose or by accident. Either is quite possible.


    At the time I remember plenty of Brexiteers saying things like "it's not about the numbers, it's about control" and claiming that immigration from the Commonwealth would be less unpopular with the sort of people who don't like immigration than immigration from the EU. I have to say that both arguments seemed implausible at the time.
    Then why didn’t Remainers use that as a campaign slogan?

    “Stay in Europe so most immigrants are white and Christian”

    I think we know why. Yet now they hypocritically whine
    I'm not whining. I just think it's funny that people said stuff like this that was so obviously untrue. The whining is very much from the other side ("I didn't vote for this" etc etc. Yes you did!)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,085

    Eabhal said:

    One of the big lime trees at the end of the road has shed most of its leaves in the past few days. Hmmm.

    Good morning

    An interesting story about a lime tree

    Homeowner believed it was OK to chop down tree but it's cost her 13 years later

    https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/owner-big-house-believed-ok-32337838#ICID=Android_DailyPostNewsApp_AppShare
    There is something more than faintly ridiculous about a homeowner being force to cough up £116000 13 years after felling a common lime tree on her own land, while nothing happens to a pub in Enfield that cut down an historic oak on land that didn't belong to them.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 64,585
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @peterrhague

    It’s hard to overstate what a disaster Boris Johnson turned out to be. It’s likely none of the present tensions would be happening in the UK if he hadn’t done this. The worst thing is, I couldn’t tell you if he did it on purpose or by accident. Either is quite possible.


    At the time I remember plenty of Brexiteers saying things like "it's not about the numbers, it's about control" and claiming that immigration from the Commonwealth would be less unpopular with the sort of people who don't like immigration than immigration from the EU. I have to say that both arguments seemed implausible at the time.
    Then why didn’t Remainers use that as a campaign slogan?

    “Stay in Europe so most immigrants are white and Christian”

    I think we know why. Yet now they hypocritical whine
    I think that point was made at the time actually, though not in those terms. There's a reason Farage focussed on Turkey joining rather than Dutch students and Polish plumbers.
    So the argument wasn’t made in those terms. So it wasn’t made. QED
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,807
    Leon said:

    If reform are proposing fracking then isn’t this what the centrist duds of PB have been demanding? A party willing to commit to difficult and unpopular things that will benefit the nation long term?

    Isn’t that to be applauded? Maybe not, if it’s from nigel

    You can argue that fracking will never work in the UK but that’s a different argument. It is also a compromised argument because we know - we literally know - that Putin’s Russia has spent a decade trying to swing the argument against fracking in Europe (in the alleged science and in the voters’ minds) by pumping out disinformation so that we remain reliant on Russia for oil and gas

    Fuck Russia. Try fracking

    This is two good policies from reform in a row. Actual policies for migration and now an actual policy on energy. Both better than anything from Lab or Con

    I'm against Fracking because it isn't viable. It has been looked at. Repeatedly. It's been tried. Commercially. My late father invested in loads of oil and gas companies and dipped into various frackers - and lost his money every time.

    It isn't that many years ago that "brownouts" was the warning - not enough power generating capacity. That gap has been filled by wind and the Fuking morons say "turn them off"

    We need to keep extracting as much oil and gas as is economic from the North Sea, but with the best will in the world that isn't a long term proposition now. Shale is a chimera. So what Farage proposes is that we import endless LNG from his orange gibbon friend.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,534
    Leon said:

    If reform are proposing fracking then isn’t this what the centrist duds of PB have been demanding? A party willing to commit to difficult and unpopular things that will benefit the nation long term?

    Isn’t that to be applauded? Maybe not, if it’s from nigel

    You can argue that fracking will never work in the UK but that’s a different argument. It is also a compromised argument because we know - we literally know - that Putin’s Russia has spent a decade trying to swing the argument against fracking in Europe (in the alleged science and in the voters’ minds) by pumping out disinformation so that we remain reliant on Russia for oil and gas

    Fuck Russia. Try fracking

    This is two good policies from reform in a row. Actual policies for migration and now an actual policy on energy. Both better than anything from Lab or Con

    Nah, because the main people to benefit will be the geo-surveyors who will say "yes, there are hydrocarbons down there but they will cost a fortune to extract and it won't be viable." It's like the British coal industry- it didn't stop for lack of coal.

    Some of my best friends are geo-surveyors, but even still...
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,895
    edited August 25
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @peterrhague

    It’s hard to overstate what a disaster Boris Johnson turned out to be. It’s likely none of the present tensions would be happening in the UK if he hadn’t done this. The worst thing is, I couldn’t tell you if he did it on purpose or by accident. Either is quite possible.


    At the time I remember plenty of Brexiteers saying things like "it's not about the numbers, it's about control" and claiming that immigration from the Commonwealth would be less unpopular with the sort of people who don't like immigration than immigration from the EU. I have to say that both arguments seemed implausible at the time.
    Then why didn’t Remainers use that as a campaign slogan?

    “Stay in Europe so most immigrants are white and Christian”

    I think we know why. Yet now they hypocritically whine
    The ones whining are Leave voters instead of blaming the frauds that promoted Brexit . Let’s be blunt the pond life protesting at migrant hotels are using that as a proxy for the huge increase in immigration from India, Pakistan , Bangladesh and Nigeria and other non white non Christian countries post Brexit .
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,846
    edited August 25
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @peterrhague

    It’s hard to overstate what a disaster Boris Johnson turned out to be. It’s likely none of the present tensions would be happening in the UK if he hadn’t done this. The worst thing is, I couldn’t tell you if he did it on purpose or by accident. Either is quite possible.


    At the time I remember plenty of Brexiteers saying things like "it's not about the numbers, it's about control" and claiming that immigration from the Commonwealth would be less unpopular with the sort of people who don't like immigration than immigration from the EU. I have to say that both arguments seemed implausible at the time.
    Then why didn’t Remainers use that as a campaign slogan?

    “Stay in Europe so most immigrants are white and Christian”

    I think we know why. Yet now they hypocritically whine
    You voted for every bit of the mess.

    Yet now hypocritically you whine.
    Yebbut Boris was a good laugh and in any case Jezza made me vote for BJ.
    Is the pretzel logic.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,670
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @peterrhague

    It’s hard to overstate what a disaster Boris Johnson turned out to be. It’s likely none of the present tensions would be happening in the UK if he hadn’t done this. The worst thing is, I couldn’t tell you if he did it on purpose or by accident. Either is quite possible.


    At the time I remember plenty of Brexiteers saying things like "it's not about the numbers, it's about control" and claiming that immigration from the Commonwealth would be less unpopular with the sort of people who don't like immigration than immigration from the EU. I have to say that both arguments seemed implausible at the time.
    Then why didn’t Remainers use that as a campaign slogan?

    “Stay in Europe so most immigrants are white and Christian”

    I think we know why. Yet now they hypocritically whine
    You voted for every bit of the mess.

    Yet now hypocritically you whine.
    Probably precisely why little Leon rants and rages against the world, having been the useful-idiot numpty for Brexit, for Johnson and then for Starmer.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,586
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    Reform tells energy firms to get ready for fracking if they win the next general election

    "Get ready for fracking, Reform UK tells energy firms - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74172wlezwo

    A guaranteed way to lose votes in return for nothing.

    Its 'reopen the pits' level of pointlessness.
    It's about the vibe. Renewables are wimpy woke, fossils are what real men have for breakfast.
    Its cosplaying they're Americans.

    The problem is that there are a lot more people living in West Yorkshire and north Derbyshire than west Texas and North Dakota.
    More fundamentally, in the US, the landowner owns the mineral rights beneath their property, and gets a payout if it is fracked under. In the UK the crown owns them, and the government doesn’t need to pay a penny.
    Are you sure of that? If so the law must have changed since the 19th century given the fortunes made by landowners whose land was mined for coal and iron ore.

    ..Ownership of oil and gas within the land area of Great Britain was vested in the Crown by the Petroleum (Production) Act 1934. The Continental Shelf Act 1964 applied the provisions of the 1934 Act to the UKCS outside territorial waters...
    https://www.bgs.ac.uk/mineralsuk/planning/uk-mineral-ownership/
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,172
    So it seems the consensus is that Leave promised:

    More money for the NHS
    More workers for the NHS
    Restrict tradesmen and gypsies migrating from Eastern Europe
    Make it easier for skilled Indians to migrate here

    And all were achieved.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,876

    Cookie said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @peterrhague

    It’s hard to overstate what a disaster Boris Johnson turned out to be. It’s likely none of the present tensions would be happening in the UK if he hadn’t done this. The worst thing is, I couldn’t tell you if he did it on purpose or by accident. Either is quite possible.


    At the time I remember plenty of Brexiteers saying things like "it's not about the numbers, it's about control" and claiming that immigration from the Commonwealth would be less unpopular with the sort of people who don't like immigration than immigration from the EU. I have to say that both arguments seemed implausible at the time.
    With the odd exception, I don't think immigration from the commonwealth is a problem. Immigration from India is very visible in my part of the world, but it isn't really a problem: these are by and large skilled immigrants whom Britain has sought and who integrate easily. The problem is illegals and dubious asylum seekers from the Middle East and North Africa.
    I am not sure your Labour -Boris-Labour-Reform voter will see it quite like that.

    We left the EU because we thought FOM gave us too many foreigners, so Brexit kicked out the foreigners, but we needed more foreigners so Johnson brought in up to a million foreign workers a year from the Indian sub-continent. I am not sure how you sell that politically as a positive.

    Your best strategy which is the one Badenoch, Philp and Jenrick are touting is if there is a problem with immigration it started on July 5th 2024. Perhaps you could try calling the "Boriswave" the "Starmerwave".
    Well, because what people object to isn't Indian doctors and engineers in my nice middle class suburb boosting the numbers at the cricket club, their kids making grammar schoos more dificult to get into; it's Afghans and Syrians and Eritreans arriving on boats and living in tents in our city centres.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,534

    HYUFD said:

    Reform tells energy firms to get ready for fracking if they win the next general election

    "Get ready for fracking, Reform UK tells energy firms - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74172wlezwo

    A guaranteed way to lose votes in return for nothing.

    Its 'reopen the pits' level of pointlessness.
    Like Trump it sends a message to the RedWall rust belt.

    "We, the Party of Nigel Farage and Brexit will return the nation to the glorious years of pre-Harold Wilson empire". Moving on, " so we couldn't give you back coal mining and steel making, but we have given you back capital sentencing, grammar schools, red telephone boxes and sent the "foreigners" packing, what more do you want?"
    Good morning

    Wasn't @HYUFD wanting to return to the Victorian era last night

    What is it with the right that live in so much in the past and never understood the motto - 'adapt adopt and improv'

    We will be having children becoming chimney sweeps next !!!!!!!!!!!

    If Farage gets his way on coal, we may have to.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,214

    Leon said:

    If reform are proposing fracking then isn’t this what the centrist duds of PB have been demanding? A party willing to commit to difficult and unpopular things that will benefit the nation long term?

    Isn’t that to be applauded? Maybe not, if it’s from nigel

    You can argue that fracking will never work in the UK but that’s a different argument. It is also a compromised argument because we know - we literally know - that Putin’s Russia has spent a decade trying to swing the argument against fracking in Europe (in the alleged science and in the voters’ minds) by pumping out disinformation so that we remain reliant on Russia for oil and gas

    Fuck Russia. Try fracking

    This is two good policies from reform in a row. Actual policies for migration and now an actual policy on energy. Both better than anything from Lab or Con

    I'm against Fracking because it isn't viable. It has been looked at. Repeatedly. It's been tried. Commercially. My late father invested in loads of oil and gas companies and dipped into various frackers - and lost his money every time.

    It isn't that many years ago that "brownouts" was the warning - not enough power generating capacity. That gap has been filled by wind and the Fuking morons say "turn them off"

    We need to keep extracting as much oil and gas as is economic from the North Sea, but with the best will in the world that isn't a long term proposition now. Shale is a chimera. So what Farage proposes is that we import endless LNG from his orange gibbon friend.
    I give much more attention to the balance of payments than most, certainly more than is rational. So I am generally in favour of home grown energy sources like wind, solar and the North Sea. To me it is a no brainer to use what we have to reduce imports even if we are, at the same time, looking to improve our energy efficiency and reduce consumption.

    But fracking is not a serious proposition in areas of high density populations with lots of old, fragile buildings that are going to be damaged by it. If we found a way to frack off our coasts, for example, I would have no problem with it but not where we live. We've looked at this several times before and it just doesn't work.
  • novanova Posts: 901

    Eabhal said:

    One of the big lime trees at the end of the road has shed most of its leaves in the past few days. Hmmm.

    Good morning

    An interesting story about a lime tree

    Homeowner believed it was OK to chop down tree but it's cost her 13 years later

    https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/owner-big-house-believed-ok-32337838#ICID=Android_DailyPostNewsApp_AppShare

    It says she didn't realise she was doing anything wrong, but also that she had failed to get a Tree Preservation Order removed.

    The article isn't particularly well written, but it suggests they the attempt to get rid of the TPO was before they cut the tree down, so a little bizarre that they tried to claim they thought it was fine to cut down the tree.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,970
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @peterrhague

    It’s hard to overstate what a disaster Boris Johnson turned out to be. It’s likely none of the present tensions would be happening in the UK if he hadn’t done this. The worst thing is, I couldn’t tell you if he did it on purpose or by accident. Either is quite possible.


    At the time I remember plenty of Brexiteers saying things like "it's not about the numbers, it's about control" and claiming that immigration from the Commonwealth would be less unpopular with the sort of people who don't like immigration than immigration from the EU. I have to say that both arguments seemed implausible at the time.
    Then why didn’t Remainers use that as a campaign slogan?

    “Stay in Europe so most immigrants are white and Christian”

    I think we know why. Yet now they hypocritically whine
    You voted for every bit of the mess.

    Yet now hypocritically you whine.

    Its our remainery cohort who do the whining about a vote they lost 10 years ago.

    The countrty is in the shit and would still be in the shit if we were in the EU. France and Germany are in deep trouble as much as we are. It's the failed policies of the last 30 years which have got us to this place and all the people bewailing our exit are the same people who implemented them.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,768
    New CLA poll of farmers voting intentions

    Conservative 38%
    Reform 36%
    LD 4%
    Labour 0%

    "Most farmers fear for survival and won’t vote Labour, poll finds" https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/farmers-poll-survival-labour-next-general-election-pvhf2rl2d
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,498
    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    One of the big lime trees at the end of the road has shed most of its leaves in the past few days. Hmmm.

    Good morning

    An interesting story about a lime tree

    Homeowner believed it was OK to chop down tree but it's cost her 13 years later

    https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/owner-big-house-believed-ok-32337838#ICID=Android_DailyPostNewsApp_AppShare
    There is something more than faintly ridiculous about a homeowner being force to cough up £116000 13 years after felling a common lime tree on her own land, while nothing happens to a pub in Enfield that cut down an historic oak on land that didn't belong to them.
    Our daughter came across this problem when selling her home recently

    Apparently there are many trees with Tree Preservation Orders (TPO) not only in conservation areas, but more generally, and especially in estates built post the 1970's when developers created TPOs on trees on their developments, a practice that continues to this day I believe

    Apparently Local Authorities have 'tree officers' who strictly police these regulations.

    I doubt many home owners have any idea about this issue until it is specifically raised in a sale's pre contract enquiries, and can cause real problems for the sale if the rules haven't been followed.

    Fortunately the trees in my daughter's property had not had TPO's but one nearby had
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,970

    HYUFD said:

    Reform tells energy firms to get ready for fracking if they win the next general election

    "Get ready for fracking, Reform UK tells energy firms - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74172wlezwo

    A guaranteed way to lose votes in return for nothing.

    Its 'reopen the pits' level of pointlessness.
    Like Trump it sends a message to the RedWall rust belt.

    "We, the Party of Nigel Farage and Brexit will return the nation to the glorious years of pre-Harold Wilson empire". Moving on, " so we couldn't give you back coal mining and steel making, but we have given you back capital sentencing, grammar schools, red telephone boxes and sent the "foreigners" packing, what more do you want?"
    Good morning

    Wasn't @HYUFD wanting to return to the Victorian era last night

    What is it with the right that live in so much in the past and never understood the motto - 'adapt adopt and improv'

    We will be having children becoming chimney sweeps next !!!!!!!!!!!

    If Farage gets his way on coal, we may have to.
    Coal not Dole

    I thought you'd be for it.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,799

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @peterrhague

    It’s hard to overstate what a disaster Boris Johnson turned out to be. It’s likely none of the present tensions would be happening in the UK if he hadn’t done this. The worst thing is, I couldn’t tell you if he did it on purpose or by accident. Either is quite possible.


    At the time I remember plenty of Brexiteers saying things like "it's not about the numbers, it's about control" and claiming that immigration from the Commonwealth would be less unpopular with the sort of people who don't like immigration than immigration from the EU. I have to say that both arguments seemed implausible at the time.
    Then why didn’t Remainers use that as a campaign slogan?

    “Stay in Europe so most immigrants are white and Christian”

    I think we know why. Yet now they hypocritically whine
    You voted for every bit of the mess.

    Yet now hypocritically you whine.

    Its our remainery cohort who do the whining about a vote they lost 10 years ago.

    The countrty is in the shit and would still be in the shit if we were in the EU. France and Germany are in deep trouble as much as we are. It's the failed policies of the last 30 years which have got us to this place and all the people bewailing our exit are the same people who implemented them.
    Now who's whinging
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,768

    Cookie said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @peterrhague

    It’s hard to overstate what a disaster Boris Johnson turned out to be. It’s likely none of the present tensions would be happening in the UK if he hadn’t done this. The worst thing is, I couldn’t tell you if he did it on purpose or by accident. Either is quite possible.


    At the time I remember plenty of Brexiteers saying things like "it's not about the numbers, it's about control" and claiming that immigration from the Commonwealth would be less unpopular with the sort of people who don't like immigration than immigration from the EU. I have to say that both arguments seemed implausible at the time.
    With the odd exception, I don't think immigration from the commonwealth is a problem. Immigration from India is very visible in my part of the world, but it isn't really a problem: these are by and large skilled immigrants whom Britain has sought and who integrate easily. The problem is illegals and dubious asylum seekers from the Middle East and North Africa.
    I am not sure your Labour -Boris-Labour-Reform voter will see it quite like that.

    We left the EU because we thought FOM gave us too many foreigners, so Brexit kicked out the foreigners, but we needed more foreigners so Johnson brought in up to a million foreign workers a year from the Indian sub-continent. I am not sure how you sell that politically as a positive.

    Your best strategy which is the one Badenoch, Philp and Jenrick are touting is if there is a problem with immigration it started on July 5th 2024. Perhaps you could try calling the "Boriswave" the "Starmerwave".
    Net immigration falling now due to tighter measures Sunak brought in
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,970

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @peterrhague

    It’s hard to overstate what a disaster Boris Johnson turned out to be. It’s likely none of the present tensions would be happening in the UK if he hadn’t done this. The worst thing is, I couldn’t tell you if he did it on purpose or by accident. Either is quite possible.


    At the time I remember plenty of Brexiteers saying things like "it's not about the numbers, it's about control" and claiming that immigration from the Commonwealth would be less unpopular with the sort of people who don't like immigration than immigration from the EU. I have to say that both arguments seemed implausible at the time.
    Then why didn’t Remainers use that as a campaign slogan?

    “Stay in Europe so most immigrants are white and Christian”

    I think we know why. Yet now they hypocritically whine
    You voted for every bit of the mess.

    Yet now hypocritically you whine.

    Its our remainery cohort who do the whining about a vote they lost 10 years ago.

    The countrty is in the shit and would still be in the shit if we were in the EU. France and Germany are in deep trouble as much as we are. It's the failed policies of the last 30 years which have got us to this place and all the people bewailing our exit are the same people who implemented them.
    Now who's whinging
    Yes Im whingeing about you whingeing.

    Grow up and move on, it's boring.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,586

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @peterrhague

    It’s hard to overstate what a disaster Boris Johnson turned out to be. It’s likely none of the present tensions would be happening in the UK if he hadn’t done this. The worst thing is, I couldn’t tell you if he did it on purpose or by accident. Either is quite possible.


    At the time I remember plenty of Brexiteers saying things like "it's not about the numbers, it's about control" and claiming that immigration from the Commonwealth would be less unpopular with the sort of people who don't like immigration than immigration from the EU. I have to say that both arguments seemed implausible at the time.
    Then why didn’t Remainers use that as a campaign slogan?

    “Stay in Europe so most immigrants are white and Christian”

    I think we know why. Yet now they hypocritically whine
    You voted for every bit of the mess.

    Yet now hypocritically you whine.

    Its our remainery cohort who do the whining about a vote they lost 10 years ago.

    The countrty is in the shit and would still be in the shit if we were in the EU. France and Germany are in deep trouble as much as we are. It's the failed policies of the last 30 years which have got us to this place and all the people bewailing our exit are the same people who implemented them.
    Perhaps, and perhaps not.
    That's the thing about alt history; it's not testable.

    I think you're wrong, as without the decade long distraction it's quite possible we'd be in a better place.
    And we'd almost certainly not have had Johnson as PM.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,768

    HYUFD said:

    Reform tells energy firms to get ready for fracking if they win the next general election

    "Get ready for fracking, Reform UK tells energy firms - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74172wlezwo

    Fracking is one of those curious things where the populist party is proposing something unpopular;

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-britain-start-extracting-shale-gas

    Fairly consistently 50% against, 25% for.
    25% close to current Reform poll rating though
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,619
    edited August 25
    Leon said:

    If reform are proposing fracking then isn’t this what the centrist duds of PB have been demanding? A party willing to commit to difficult and unpopular things that will benefit the nation long term?

    Isn’t that to be applauded? Maybe not, if it’s from nigel

    You can argue that fracking will never work in the UK but that’s a different argument. It is also a compromised argument because we know - we literally know - that Putin’s Russia has spent a decade trying to swing the argument against fracking in Europe (in the alleged science and in the voters’ minds) by pumping out disinformation so that we remain reliant on Russia for oil and gas

    Fuck Russia. Try fracking

    This is two good policies from reform in a row. Actual policies for migration and now an actual policy on energy. Both better than anything from Lab or Con

    No, because our gas and oil prices would continue to be set by the global market which is heavily influenced by various arsehole countries including Russia.*

    The only argument for it is economic, and even that is undermined by the the fact more of our economy would be exposed to these dickheads than one without fracking.

    *The conspiracy is that to this is part of the attraction for Reform - allowing Putin to destroy our economy gives him lots of power over us and our allies - see the energy crisis in 2022.

    + All the other arguments PBers have responded for.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,586
    nova said:

    Eabhal said:

    One of the big lime trees at the end of the road has shed most of its leaves in the past few days. Hmmm.

    Good morning

    An interesting story about a lime tree

    Homeowner believed it was OK to chop down tree but it's cost her 13 years later

    https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/owner-big-house-believed-ok-32337838#ICID=Android_DailyPostNewsApp_AppShare

    It says she didn't realise she was doing anything wrong, but also that she had failed to get a Tree Preservation Order removed.

    The article isn't particularly well written, but it suggests they the attempt to get rid of the TPO was before they cut the tree down, so a little bizarre that they tried to claim they thought it was fine to cut down the tree.
    Most of the money she lost was in court fees.
    Should have just accepted her mistake, paid the fine, and moved on.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,711
    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @peterrhague

    It’s hard to overstate what a disaster Boris Johnson turned out to be. It’s likely none of the present tensions would be happening in the UK if he hadn’t done this. The worst thing is, I couldn’t tell you if he did it on purpose or by accident. Either is quite possible.


    At the time I remember plenty of Brexiteers saying things like "it's not about the numbers, it's about control" and claiming that immigration from the Commonwealth would be less unpopular with the sort of people who don't like immigration than immigration from the EU. I have to say that both arguments seemed implausible at the time.
    With the odd exception, I don't think immigration from the commonwealth is a problem. Immigration from India is very visible in my part of the world, but it isn't really a problem: these are by and large skilled immigrants whom Britain has sought and who integrate easily. The problem is illegals and dubious asylum seekers from the Middle East and North Africa.
    I am not sure your Labour -Boris-Labour-Reform voter will see it quite like that.

    We left the EU because we thought FOM gave us too many foreigners, so Brexit kicked out the foreigners, but we needed more foreigners so Johnson brought in up to a million foreign workers a year from the Indian sub-continent. I am not sure how you sell that politically as a positive.

    Your best strategy which is the one Badenoch, Philp and Jenrick are touting is if there is a problem with immigration it started on July 5th 2024. Perhaps you could try calling the "Boriswave" the "Starmerwave".
    Net immigration falling now due to tighter measures Sunak brought in
    If as a party you are to exclusively blame the incumbent Starmer for the small boats you can't claim you have resolved all the other immigration issues on their watch. Those are the rules.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,936
    Cookie said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @peterrhague

    It’s hard to overstate what a disaster Boris Johnson turned out to be. It’s likely none of the present tensions would be happening in the UK if he hadn’t done this. The worst thing is, I couldn’t tell you if he did it on purpose or by accident. Either is quite possible.


    At the time I remember plenty of Brexiteers saying things like "it's not about the numbers, it's about control" and claiming that immigration from the Commonwealth would be less unpopular with the sort of people who don't like immigration than immigration from the EU. I have to say that both arguments seemed implausible at the time.
    With the odd exception, I don't think immigration from the commonwealth is a problem. Immigration from India is very visible in my part of the world, but it isn't really a problem: these are by and large skilled immigrants whom Britain has sought and who integrate easily. The problem is illegals and dubious asylum seekers from the Middle East and North Africa.
    It's the Euroopeans who have disappeared that I miss the most. You could go round towns and cities all over the UK and it was full of young attractive people speaking a multitude of languages. It's like that in the Sounth of France everywhere and it used to be like that in England. It's difficult to realise how it's changed over the last nine or ten years
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,534

    HYUFD said:

    Reform tells energy firms to get ready for fracking if they win the next general election

    "Get ready for fracking, Reform UK tells energy firms - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74172wlezwo

    A guaranteed way to lose votes in return for nothing.

    Its 'reopen the pits' level of pointlessness.
    Like Trump it sends a message to the RedWall rust belt.

    "We, the Party of Nigel Farage and Brexit will return the nation to the glorious years of pre-Harold Wilson empire". Moving on, " so we couldn't give you back coal mining and steel making, but we have given you back capital sentencing, grammar schools, red telephone boxes and sent the "foreigners" packing, what more do you want?"
    Good morning

    Wasn't @HYUFD wanting to return to the Victorian era last night

    What is it with the right that live in so much in the past and never understood the motto - 'adapt adopt and improv'

    We will be having children becoming chimney sweeps next !!!!!!!!!!!

    If Farage gets his way on coal, we may have to.
    Coal not Dole

    I thought you'd be for it.
    Me? Clarkite one nation Thatcherite who thinks it's a shame that The Lady undermined so much of what she achieved?

    Give over.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,711

    HYUFD said:

    Reform tells energy firms to get ready for fracking if they win the next general election

    "Get ready for fracking, Reform UK tells energy firms - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74172wlezwo

    A guaranteed way to lose votes in return for nothing.

    Its 'reopen the pits' level of pointlessness.
    Like Trump it sends a message to the RedWall rust belt.

    "We, the Party of Nigel Farage and Brexit will return the nation to the glorious years of pre-Harold Wilson empire". Moving on, " so we couldn't give you back coal mining and steel making, but we have given you back capital sentencing, grammar schools, red telephone boxes and sent the "foreigners" packing, what more do you want?"
    Good morning

    Wasn't @HYUFD wanting to return to the Victorian era last night

    What is it with the right that live in so much in the past and never understood the motto - 'adapt adopt and improv'

    We will be having children becoming chimney sweeps next !!!!!!!!!!!

    If Farage gets his way on coal, we may have to.
    Coal not Dole

    I thought you'd be for it.
    Me? Clarkite one nation Thatcherite who thinks it's a shame that The Lady undermined so much of what she achieved?

    Give over.
    The Party of Geoffrey Howe and Heseltine is now the Party of Jenrick and Braverman. Just let that sink in for a moment.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,984
    Roger said:

    Cookie said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @peterrhague

    It’s hard to overstate what a disaster Boris Johnson turned out to be. It’s likely none of the present tensions would be happening in the UK if he hadn’t done this. The worst thing is, I couldn’t tell you if he did it on purpose or by accident. Either is quite possible.


    At the time I remember plenty of Brexiteers saying things like "it's not about the numbers, it's about control" and claiming that immigration from the Commonwealth would be less unpopular with the sort of people who don't like immigration than immigration from the EU. I have to say that both arguments seemed implausible at the time.
    With the odd exception, I don't think immigration from the commonwealth is a problem. Immigration from India is very visible in my part of the world, but it isn't really a problem: these are by and large skilled immigrants whom Britain has sought and who integrate easily. The problem is illegals and dubious asylum seekers from the Middle East and North Africa.
    It's the Euroopeans who have disappeared that I miss the most. You could go round towns and cities all over the UK and it was full of young attractive people speaking a multitude of languages. It's like that in the Sounth of France everywhere and it used to be like that in England. It's difficult to realise how it's changed over the last nine or ten years
    Ah, Europe, the continent where there are no ugly young people, just attractive ones, so many in fact that they could send tens of thousands over to work in the UK and display their beauty. And shame on the rest of the world for not supplying us with attractive guest workers to perv over.

    This country.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,807
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    If reform are proposing fracking then isn’t this what the centrist duds of PB have been demanding? A party willing to commit to difficult and unpopular things that will benefit the nation long term?

    Isn’t that to be applauded? Maybe not, if it’s from nigel

    You can argue that fracking will never work in the UK but that’s a different argument. It is also a compromised argument because we know - we literally know - that Putin’s Russia has spent a decade trying to swing the argument against fracking in Europe (in the alleged science and in the voters’ minds) by pumping out disinformation so that we remain reliant on Russia for oil and gas

    Fuck Russia. Try fracking

    This is two good policies from reform in a row. Actual policies for migration and now an actual policy on energy. Both better than anything from Lab or Con

    I'm against Fracking because it isn't viable. It has been looked at. Repeatedly. It's been tried. Commercially. My late father invested in loads of oil and gas companies and dipped into various frackers - and lost his money every time.

    It isn't that many years ago that "brownouts" was the warning - not enough power generating capacity. That gap has been filled by wind and the Fuking morons say "turn them off"

    We need to keep extracting as much oil and gas as is economic from the North Sea, but with the best will in the world that isn't a long term proposition now. Shale is a chimera. So what Farage proposes is that we import endless LNG from his orange gibbon friend.
    I give much more attention to the balance of payments than most, certainly more than is rational. So I am generally in favour of home grown energy sources like wind, solar and the North Sea. To me it is a no brainer to use what we have to reduce imports even if we are, at the same time, looking to improve our energy efficiency and reduce consumption.

    But fracking is not a serious proposition in areas of high density populations with lots of old, fragile buildings that are going to be damaged by it. If we found a way to frack off our coasts, for example, I would have no problem with it but not where we live. We've looked at this several times before and it just doesn't work.
    Reform are touring the North East. Their message? Shut down the wind farms, burn more gas.

    There's a problem. Even if you open up more gas wells we're short of the stuff having largely burnt it already. Gas is 26% of UK energy production but we have to import half. So if we burn more gas we import more gas.

    I support bringing as much out of the North Sea as we can. But more gas power = more imports. None of the imports are to the NE - it will kill us.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,895
    HYUFD said:

    New CLA poll of farmers voting intentions

    Conservative 38%
    Reform 36%
    LD 4%
    Labour 0%

    "Most farmers fear for survival and won’t vote Labour, poll finds" https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/farmers-poll-survival-labour-next-general-election-pvhf2rl2d

    74% voting for the handmaidens of Brexit which totally screwed farmers .
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,856
    FPT, for Mr. Divvie:

    Apologies for the slow reply (been busy).

    I've a 1922 copy of The Jungle Book, with an elephant and a small swastika on the front. The broken cross was used by many cultures, including Hindus.

    You may be right about reclaiming it. But the cross of Saint George is not remotely the same thing.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,856

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    If reform are proposing fracking then isn’t this what the centrist duds of PB have been demanding? A party willing to commit to difficult and unpopular things that will benefit the nation long term?

    Isn’t that to be applauded? Maybe not, if it’s from nigel

    You can argue that fracking will never work in the UK but that’s a different argument. It is also a compromised argument because we know - we literally know - that Putin’s Russia has spent a decade trying to swing the argument against fracking in Europe (in the alleged science and in the voters’ minds) by pumping out disinformation so that we remain reliant on Russia for oil and gas

    Fuck Russia. Try fracking

    This is two good policies from reform in a row. Actual policies for migration and now an actual policy on energy. Both better than anything from Lab or Con

    I'm against Fracking because it isn't viable. It has been looked at. Repeatedly. It's been tried. Commercially. My late father invested in loads of oil and gas companies and dipped into various frackers - and lost his money every time.

    It isn't that many years ago that "brownouts" was the warning - not enough power generating capacity. That gap has been filled by wind and the Fuking morons say "turn them off"

    We need to keep extracting as much oil and gas as is economic from the North Sea, but with the best will in the world that isn't a long term proposition now. Shale is a chimera. So what Farage proposes is that we import endless LNG from his orange gibbon friend.
    I give much more attention to the balance of payments than most, certainly more than is rational. So I am generally in favour of home grown energy sources like wind, solar and the North Sea. To me it is a no brainer to use what we have to reduce imports even if we are, at the same time, looking to improve our energy efficiency and reduce consumption.

    But fracking is not a serious proposition in areas of high density populations with lots of old, fragile buildings that are going to be damaged by it. If we found a way to frack off our coasts, for example, I would have no problem with it but not where we live. We've looked at this several times before and it just doesn't work.
    Reform are touring the North East. Their message? Shut down the wind farms, burn more gas.

    There's a problem. Even if you open up more gas wells we're short of the stuff having largely burnt it already. Gas is 26% of UK energy production but we have to import half. So if we burn more gas we import more gas.

    I support bringing as much out of the North Sea as we can. But more gas power = more imports. None of the imports are to the NE - it will kill us.
    Reliance on Russian gas would fit with Farage's worldview. An ironic coincidence of him and Angela Merkel.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 64,585
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @peterrhague

    It’s hard to overstate what a disaster Boris Johnson turned out to be. It’s likely none of the present tensions would be happening in the UK if he hadn’t done this. The worst thing is, I couldn’t tell you if he did it on purpose or by accident. Either is quite possible.


    At the time I remember plenty of Brexiteers saying things like "it's not about the numbers, it's about control" and claiming that immigration from the Commonwealth would be less unpopular with the sort of people who don't like immigration than immigration from the EU. I have to say that both arguments seemed implausible at the time.
    Then why didn’t Remainers use that as a campaign slogan?

    “Stay in Europe so most immigrants are white and Christian”

    I think we know why. Yet now they hypocritically whine
    You voted for every bit of the mess.

    Yet now hypocritically you whine.
    I’m not whining. With gritted teeth, I’d vote Brexit tomorrow
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,172
    Roger said:

    Cookie said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @peterrhague

    It’s hard to overstate what a disaster Boris Johnson turned out to be. It’s likely none of the present tensions would be happening in the UK if he hadn’t done this. The worst thing is, I couldn’t tell you if he did it on purpose or by accident. Either is quite possible.


    At the time I remember plenty of Brexiteers saying things like "it's not about the numbers, it's about control" and claiming that immigration from the Commonwealth would be less unpopular with the sort of people who don't like immigration than immigration from the EU. I have to say that both arguments seemed implausible at the time.
    With the odd exception, I don't think immigration from the commonwealth is a problem. Immigration from India is very visible in my part of the world, but it isn't really a problem: these are by and large skilled immigrants whom Britain has sought and who integrate easily. The problem is illegals and dubious asylum seekers from the Middle East and North Africa.
    It's the Euroopeans who have disappeared that I miss the most. You could go round towns and cities all over the UK and it was full of young attractive people speaking a multitude of languages. It's like that in the Sounth of France everywhere and it used to be like that in England. It's difficult to realise how it's changed over the last nine or ten years
    You're comparing your current fantasy world with your earlier fantasy world.

    Without considering which of them people who live in this country might actually prefer.

    Though perhaps one reason you might think there are fewer Europeans in Britain is that many of them have integrated and now speak English.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,711
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @peterrhague

    It’s hard to overstate what a disaster Boris Johnson turned out to be. It’s likely none of the present tensions would be happening in the UK if he hadn’t done this. The worst thing is, I couldn’t tell you if he did it on purpose or by accident. Either is quite possible.


    At the time I remember plenty of Brexiteers saying things like "it's not about the numbers, it's about control" and claiming that immigration from the Commonwealth would be less unpopular with the sort of people who don't like immigration than immigration from the EU. I have to say that both arguments seemed implausible at the time.
    With the odd exception, I don't think immigration from the commonwealth is a problem. Immigration from India is very visible in my part of the world, but it isn't really a problem: these are by and large skilled immigrants whom Britain has sought and who integrate easily. The problem is illegals and dubious asylum seekers from the Middle East and North Africa.
    I am not sure your Labour -Boris-Labour-Reform voter will see it quite like that.

    We left the EU because we thought FOM gave us too many foreigners, so Brexit kicked out the foreigners, but we needed more foreigners so Johnson brought in up to a million foreign workers a year from the Indian sub-continent. I am not sure how you sell that politically as a positive.

    Your best strategy which is the one Badenoch, Philp and Jenrick are touting is if there is a problem with immigration it started on July 5th 2024. Perhaps you could try calling the "Boriswave" the "Starmerwave".
    Well, because what people object to isn't Indian doctors and engineers in my nice middle class suburb boosting the numbers at the cricket club, their kids making grammar schoos more dificult to get into; it's Afghans and Syrians and Eritreans arriving on boats and living in tents in our city centres.
    I am not sure you understand the racist mindset. I doubt they differentiate Indian Doctors from Afghan plasterers.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,846
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @peterrhague

    It’s hard to overstate what a disaster Boris Johnson turned out to be. It’s likely none of the present tensions would be happening in the UK if he hadn’t done this. The worst thing is, I couldn’t tell you if he did it on purpose or by accident. Either is quite possible.


    At the time I remember plenty of Brexiteers saying things like "it's not about the numbers, it's about control" and claiming that immigration from the Commonwealth would be less unpopular with the sort of people who don't like immigration than immigration from the EU. I have to say that both arguments seemed implausible at the time.
    Then why didn’t Remainers use that as a campaign slogan?

    “Stay in Europe so most immigrants are white and Christian”

    I think we know why. Yet now they hypocritically whine
    You voted for every bit of the mess.

    Yet now hypocritically you whine.
    I’m not whining. With gritted teeth, I’d vote Brexit tomorrow
    Will you vote for BJ when he returns from the wilderness years?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,711
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @peterrhague

    It’s hard to overstate what a disaster Boris Johnson turned out to be. It’s likely none of the present tensions would be happening in the UK if he hadn’t done this. The worst thing is, I couldn’t tell you if he did it on purpose or by accident. Either is quite possible.


    At the time I remember plenty of Brexiteers saying things like "it's not about the numbers, it's about control" and claiming that immigration from the Commonwealth would be less unpopular with the sort of people who don't like immigration than immigration from the EU. I have to say that both arguments seemed implausible at the time.
    Then why didn’t Remainers use that as a campaign slogan?

    “Stay in Europe so most immigrants are white and Christian”

    I think we know why. Yet now they hypocritically whine
    You voted for every bit of the mess.

    Yet now hypocritically you whine.
    I’m not whining. With gritted teeth, I’d vote Brexit tomorrow
    You're up early.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,548
    edited August 25

    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    One of the big lime trees at the end of the road has shed most of its leaves in the past few days. Hmmm.

    Good morning

    An interesting story about a lime tree

    Homeowner believed it was OK to chop down tree but it's cost her 13 years later

    https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/owner-big-house-believed-ok-32337838#ICID=Android_DailyPostNewsApp_AppShare
    There is something more than faintly ridiculous about a homeowner being force to cough up £116000 13 years after felling a common lime tree on her own land, while nothing happens to a pub in Enfield that cut down an historic oak on land that didn't belong to them.
    Our daughter came across this problem when selling her home recently

    Apparently there are many trees with Tree Preservation Orders (TPO) not only in conservation areas, but more generally, and especially in estates built post the 1970's when developers created TPOs on trees on their developments, a practice that continues to this day I believe

    Apparently Local Authorities have 'tree officers' who strictly police these regulations.

    I doubt many home owners have any idea about this issue until it is specifically raised in a sale's pre contract enquiries, and can cause real problems for the sale if the rules haven't been followed.

    Fortunately the trees in my daughter's property had not had TPO's but one nearby had
    We had a tree in the garden with a TPO. We had it trimmed every so often, by someone who knew what they were doing, who eventually opined that it was becoming dangerous, due to old age and trunk deterioration. So he made the necessary approach to the local council and, approval having been given, cut it down.
    When it was, it was discovered that the trunk was absolutely rotten and indeed, then the last section was removed, it split into two.
    A gale might have caused considerable damage, either to us...... probably our garage ...... or to the neighbours, or to the local library.
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