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In some ways this is a very impressive achievement by Labour – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,638
edited August 21 in General
In some ways this is a very impressive achievement by Labour – politicalbetting.com

The government's net approval rating has fallen to -56, matching the final rating of the Conservative government before the 2024 electionApprove: 13% (no change from 9-11 August)Disapprove: 69% (+1)Net: -56 (-1)yougov.co.uk/topics/polit…

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  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,966
    edited August 21
    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are. They appeared to have managed to piss everybody off.
  • Wonder what it would take for the 13% who approve to turn their backs on Labour?
  • scampi25scampi25 Posts: 228

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    Not me. I feeling little sorry for the supporters bit it's always the same.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 6,382
    Ming vases have gone out of fashion.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,261

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    The right-wing media are doing a grand job of pinning the blame onto Labour for much of the shite that the Tories are responsible for.

    The latest is that putting migrants up in hotels is a "Labour Policy". Which is now "in tatters".

    Of course, the government has also been busting gut to make itself as unpopular as possible, without actually achieving much in return.

    Pain, but no gain.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,796

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    I think it's been surprising how rudderless and inept the government have been. My sense is that the British public have decided that Starmer and Labour simply don't have a clue. There isn't anything for potential defenders of the government to rally round.
  • MaxPB said:

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    You can't come in promising change and then deliver the same shoddy, half baked governing as the last lot. If anything they've made things worse, inflation is back up, the economy is slowing down, business investment has cratered, unemployment is up and the border crisis is worse than what the Tories left behind.

    There aren't any measures where Labour are doing anything appreciably better than the previous government, therefore they are now just as unpopular. I also think people really, really don't like Starmer. Very few defenders left (mostly on here).
    The change they implemented was to increase the worst possible tax to increase, one they said they wouldn't.

    Queue people defending it by pretending its only the other half of NI they said they wouldn't increase.

    There have been no serious reforms implemented at all. No ideas.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,550
    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Although there has always been significant racism in Britain, over the last year it seems to have changed from covert racism to overt racism. Although it’s better out in the open, it is becoming acceptable, which is not good.

    There's never been less racism in Britain than now.
    I disagree.

    My experiences are getting worse.

    Recently asked by a stranger if I came over on a boat.

    Out of curiosity are you a person of colour?
    That's very sad to hear TSE. I think it's an inevitable consequence of uncontrolled and very visible illegal immigration. People are fed up of having their money and resources spent on these freeloaders and it's starting to boil over.

    Labour really need to lance the boil and bring back a mass deportations scheme for boat arrivals. Do whatever it takes to get planeloads of new arrivals on the way to a third country and also remove the ones who are already here. If it upsets a few liberals and they need to enable it with very tough laws that override the courts and international treaties then that's what it will take.

    This has been going on too long and just as with the OSA, it's law abiding citizens who will bear that brunt of the fallout, including any citizens who look like they are from an Asian or African country. The blame lies squarely on the politicians for ignoring the public on the subject of immigration for the past 20 years.
    No, racism is the fault of racists. Stop making excuses for these scrotes.
    And this is why Reform are going to win a majority in 2028/29. You think admonishing or locking up a few people will solve the problem. It doesn't. The cause is uncontrolled illegal immigration, while that is still going no amount of locking up ordinary people is going to stop them from wanting fewer people who don't look like them in the country.

    The UK is one of the best places in the world to be a foreign looking person, however, that is now being stretched to breaking point because the state just seems incapable of keeping us safe from illegal immigrants.

    You keep ignoring the causes and try to treat the symptoms and you keep on losing. I just hope that when Reform arrives they are sensible and don't try and attack already naturalised citizen rights. I don't think they will but we are heading towards a huge over correction on immigration because of the last few years.
    To be certain of a majority of a majority Reform need to be on 40-45%+ not roughly 30%, especially given the combined LD and Green vote is over 20% and offers Labour plenty of opportunity to squeeze them for tactical votes.

    Whether the deal with France and the High Court decision leads to a decline in illegal migration I agree is still open for discussion
    Labour got 34% at the last election and came away with a huge majority. Reform won't even need one half as big. They could easily get a majority on 35% of the vote.

    Labour may try and squeeze the other parties but if anything the national mood is to get rid of Labour and give them a kicking just as it was for the Tories in 2024 who appealed to Reform defectors to come back so that Labour wouldn't get a big majority. Governing parties rarely benefit from tactical voting.
    Labour had massive tactical voting FOR them from the LDs and Greens, Reform will largely have tactical voting AGAINST them unless they can really squeeze down the Tory vote to next to nothing in their target seats.

    Blair got tactical votes for his government heavily in 2001 and even in some marginals in 2005 to keep Howard from No 10.

    Boris and May also probably got some tactical votes in 2017 and 2019 to keep out Corbyn
    Yes but that was when they were in opposition, now they lead an incredibly unpopular government. Voters have decisively turned against Labour and the PM, it's more likely that Labour votes get squeezed by other parties.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,995
    I presume the Mail isn't accepting comments on this because it is sub judice https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15021327/Snapchat-date-manhood-taken-away-sex-trans-woman.html
    the trial continues...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,966
    edited August 21
    MaxPB said:

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    You can't come in promising change and then deliver the same shoddy, half baked governing as the last lot. If anything they've made things worse, inflation is back up, the economy is slowing down, business investment has cratered, unemployment is up and the border crisis is worse than what the Tories left behind.

    There aren't any measures where Labour are doing anything appreciably better than the previous government, therefore they are now just as unpopular. I also think people really, really don't like Starmer. Very few defenders left (mostly on here).
    I know this, you know this. But there are still a decent chunk of the country who for things like NI on your employer won't be directly seen by them. Many public sector workers have got large pay increases, as have minimum wage workers.

    Also they went hard on the narrative of the country is broken because of 14 years of Tory failure / £20bn blackhole. The Coalition did that in 2010 and it gave them a fair bit of breathing room. It doesn't seemed to have worked for Labour.

    And as you say, Starmer appears to really rub people up the wrong way. Which again, I find a little surprising. He isn't my cup of tea, I find him massively uninspiring and overpromoted, but it doesn't drive me to want to smash my telly up like Gordon Brown. I also presumed a decent chunk of people who go for the spin of well he is boring and reliable unlike Boris.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,550

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    The right-wing media are doing a grand job of pinning the blame onto Labour for much of the shite that the Tories are responsible for.

    The latest is that putting migrants up in hotels is a "Labour Policy". Which is now "in tatters".

    Of course, the government has also been busting gut to make itself as unpopular as possible, without actually achieving much in return.

    Pain, but no gain.
    Because they came in promising to shut them down, only to not do so and only commit to actually shutting them down by 2029. Even then it's just a sleight of hand because they're just going to put up asylum seekers in houses. People don't want to spend taxpayer money on asylum seekers, whether that's putting them in hotels or paying rent for houses, they want them deported.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,995
    What actually is Starmer's plan for government ? What is the man's vision ?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,810
    All my Labour friends hate Starmer . Equally they absolutely loathe Farage and Reform .

    Labour have managed to alienate everyone . I’m surprised they’re even polling above the Tories in most polls.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,451

    Wonder what it would take for the 13% who approve to turn their backs on Labour?

    Truss got 6% after it had all gone to shit and she announced her resignation but the ratings a fortnight before and after the mini budget collapse and polling had gone to a 30 point Lab lead was 11/70.
    Starmer is at Truss levels. Presumably if he were forced to quit due to implosion of the economy then the 6/82 of 24/10/22 would loom
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,550
    nico67 said:

    All my Labour friends hate Starmer . Equally they absolutely loathe Farage and Reform .

    Labour have managed to alienate everyone . I’m surprised they’re even polling above the Tories in most polls.

    The Tories are universally loathed at the moment too, most people still pin the blame of migrants at their door as well as Labour for starting the hotel policy.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,966
    edited August 21
    Pulpstar said:

    What actually is Starmer's plan for government ? What is the man's vision ?

    The Ming Vase is empty. Plan seems to be ever higher taxes and crack down on "sins" and that is about it.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 2,227
    FPT

    Shocked.

    Revealed: Israeli military’s own data indicates civilian death rate of 83% in Gaza war

    Figures from classified IDF database listed 8,900 named fighters as dead or probably dead in May, as overall death toll reached 53,000


    Figures from a classified Israeli military intelligence database indicate five out of six Palestinians killed by Israeli forces in Gaza have been civilians, an extreme rate of slaughter rarely matched in recent decades of warfare.

    As of May, 19 months into the war, Israeli intelligence officials listed 8,900 named fighters from Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad as dead or “probably dead”, a joint investigation by the Guardian, the Israeli-Palestinian publication +972 Magazine and the Hebrew-language outlet Local Call has found.

    At that time 53,000 Palestinians had been killed by Israeli attacks, according to health authorities in Gaza, a toll that included combatants and civilians. Fighters named in the Israeli military intelligence database accounted for just 17% of the total, which indicates that 83% of the dead were civilians.

    That apparent ratio of civilians to combatants among the dead is extremely high for modern warfare, even compared with conflicts notorious for indiscriminate killing, including the Syrian and Sudanese civil wars.

    “That proportion of civilians among those killed would be unusually high, particularly as it has been going on for such a long time,” said Therése Pettersson from the Uppsala Conflict Data Program, which tracks civilian casualties worldwide. “If you single out a particular city or battle in another conflict, you could find similar rates, but very rarely overall.”

    In global conflicts tracked by UCDP since 1989, civilians made up a greater proportion of the dead only in Srebenica – although not the Bosnian war overall – in the Rwandan genocide, and during the Russian siege of Mariupol in 2022, Pettersson said.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2025/aug/21/revealed-israeli-militarys-own-data-indicates-civilian-death-rate-of-83-in-gaza-war

    I wouldn't expect the IDF to be able to name every single Hamas fighter they had killed, so you can't conclude that everyone killed who isn't named is a civilian.
    Well said. What a stupid report.

    Plus the number of civilians killed would be zero if Hamas surrenders unconditionally and releases the hostages.
    You mean like the zero casualties and lack of violent oppresion in the West Bank?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,796
    Pulpstar said:

    What actually is Starmer's plan for government ? What is the man's vision ?

    His vision is to make Blair's government look like it stood for something.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,550

    MaxPB said:

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    You can't come in promising change and then deliver the same shoddy, half baked governing as the last lot. If anything they've made things worse, inflation is back up, the economy is slowing down, business investment has cratered, unemployment is up and the border crisis is worse than what the Tories left behind.

    There aren't any measures where Labour are doing anything appreciably better than the previous government, therefore they are now just as unpopular. I also think people really, really don't like Starmer. Very few defenders left (mostly on here).
    I know this, you know this. But there are still a decent chunk of the country who for things like NI on your employer won't be directly seen by them. Many public sector workers have got large pay increases, as have minimum wage workers.

    Also they went hard on the narrative of the country is broken because of 14 years of Tory failure / £20bn blackhole. The Coalition did that in 2010 and it gave them a fair bit of breathing room. It doesn't seemed to have worked for Labour.

    And as you say, Starmer appears to really rub people up the wrong way. Which again, I find a little surprising. He isn't my cup of tea, I find him massively uninspiring and overpromoted, but it doesn't drive me to want to smash my telly up like Gordon Brown. I also presumed a decent chunk of people who go for the spin of well he is boring and reliable unlike Boris.
    I suspect a big chunk of that 13% is made up of public sector workers who have benefited from pay rises.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,451
    nico67 said:

    All my Labour friends hate Starmer . Equally they absolutely loathe Farage and Reform .

    Labour have managed to alienate everyone . I’m surprised they’re even polling above the Tories in most polls.

    If their polling is as out as the last GE then they arent, lol
    The kicking they get at Holyrood and Cardiiff Bay might just be epic
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,684
    You would have to go back to maybe Heath's 1970-1974 government to find a party as unpopular as Starmer's government is in only their first term of government, even Thatcher's pre Falklands or the 1974-1979 Labour government was not this unpopular at this stage.

    However Starmer has the advantage that his main opponent is likely to be Farage and there are plenty of LD and Green voters who would vote Labour in Labour marginals to keep Reform from power even if they are not great fans of this Labour government. Of course if the Tories still were the main opposition and had a charismatic and centrist leader they would be heading for a likely Tory landslide.

    Indeed Starmer likely also wants a Tory poll recovery, which would probably come mainly at Reform's expense, whether under Kemi or a new Tory leader like Stride, Cleverly or Jenrick
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,684
    edited August 21
    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Although there has always been significant racism in Britain, over the last year it seems to have changed from covert racism to overt racism. Although it’s better out in the open, it is becoming acceptable, which is not good.

    There's never been less racism in Britain than now.
    I disagree.

    My experiences are getting worse.

    Recently asked by a stranger if I came over on a boat.

    Out of curiosity are you a person of colour?
    That's very sad to hear TSE. I think it's an inevitable consequence of uncontrolled and very visible illegal immigration. People are fed up of having their money and resources spent on these freeloaders and it's starting to boil over.

    Labour really need to lance the boil and bring back a mass deportations scheme for boat arrivals. Do whatever it takes to get planeloads of new arrivals on the way to a third country and also remove the ones who are already here. If it upsets a few liberals and they need to enable it with very tough laws that override the courts and international treaties then that's what it will take.

    This has been going on too long and just as with the OSA, it's law abiding citizens who will bear that brunt of the fallout, including any citizens who look like they are from an Asian or African country. The blame lies squarely on the politicians for ignoring the public on the subject of immigration for the past 20 years.
    No, racism is the fault of racists. Stop making excuses for these scrotes.
    And this is why Reform are going to win a majority in 2028/29. You think admonishing or locking up a few people will solve the problem. It doesn't. The cause is uncontrolled illegal immigration, while that is still going no amount of locking up ordinary people is going to stop them from wanting fewer people who don't look like them in the country.

    The UK is one of the best places in the world to be a foreign looking person, however, that is now being stretched to breaking point because the state just seems incapable of keeping us safe from illegal immigrants.

    You keep ignoring the causes and try to treat the symptoms and you keep on losing. I just hope that when Reform arrives they are sensible and don't try and attack already naturalised citizen rights. I don't think they will but we are heading towards a huge over correction on immigration because of the last few years.
    To be certain of a majority of a majority Reform need to be on 40-45%+ not roughly 30%, especially given the combined LD and Green vote is over 20% and offers Labour plenty of opportunity to squeeze them for tactical votes.

    Whether the deal with France and the High Court decision leads to a decline in illegal migration I agree is still open for discussion
    Labour got 34% at the last election and came away with a huge majority. Reform won't even need one half as big. They could easily get a majority on 35% of the vote.

    Labour may try and squeeze the other parties but if anything the national mood is to get rid of Labour and give them a kicking just as it was for the Tories in 2024 who appealed to Reform defectors to come back so that Labour wouldn't get a big majority. Governing parties rarely benefit from tactical voting.
    Labour had massive tactical voting FOR them from the LDs and Greens, Reform will largely have tactical voting AGAINST them unless they can really squeeze down the Tory vote to next to nothing in their target seats.

    Blair got tactical votes for his government heavily in 2001 and even in some marginals in 2005 to keep Howard from No 10.

    Boris and May also probably got some tactical votes in 2017 and 2019 to keep out Corbyn
    Yes but that was when they were in opposition, now they lead an incredibly unpopular government. Voters have decisively turned against Labour and the PM, it's more likely that Labour votes get squeezed by other parties.
    LD and Green voters clearly prefer Starmer as PM to Farage in polls on a forced choice, a hung parliament is likely in my view
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    You can't come in promising change and then deliver the same shoddy, half baked governing as the last lot. If anything they've made things worse, inflation is back up, the economy is slowing down, business investment has cratered, unemployment is up and the border crisis is worse than what the Tories left behind.

    There aren't any measures where Labour are doing anything appreciably better than the previous government, therefore they are now just as unpopular. I also think people really, really don't like Starmer. Very few defenders left (mostly on here).
    I know this, you know this. But there are still a decent chunk of the country who for things like NI on your employer won't be directly seen by them. Many public sector workers have got large pay increases, as have minimum wage workers.

    Also they went hard on the narrative of the country is broken because of 14 years of Tory failure / £20bn blackhole. The Coalition did that in 2010 and it gave them a fair bit of breathing room. It doesn't seemed to have worked for Labour.

    And as you say, Starmer appears to really rub people up the wrong way. Which again, I find a little surprising. He isn't my cup of tea, I find him massively uninspiring and overpromoted, but it doesn't drive me to want to smash my telly up like Gordon Brown. I also presumed a decent chunk of people who go for the spin of well he is boring and reliable unlike Boris.
    I suspect a big chunk of that 13% is made up of public sector workers who have benefited from pay rises.
    Public sector pay has gone up by less than private sector since Labour came to power, so I doubt they're particularly happy either.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,684
    'Rachel Reeves is preparing the ground for the extinction of the middle class
    The Chancellor’s obscene tax grab will turn millions of ordinary homeowners into dispossessed tenants'
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/08/20/reeves-not-stopped-every-inch-britain-property-state/
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,389
    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Although there has always been significant racism in Britain, over the last year it seems to have changed from covert racism to overt racism. Although it’s better out in the open, it is becoming acceptable, which is not good.

    There's never been less racism in Britain than now.
    I disagree.

    My experiences are getting worse.

    Recently asked by a stranger if I came over on a boat.

    Out of curiosity are you a person of colour?
    That's very sad to hear TSE. I think it's an inevitable consequence of uncontrolled and very visible illegal immigration. People are fed up of having their money and resources spent on these freeloaders and it's starting to boil over.

    Labour really need to lance the boil and bring back a mass deportations scheme for boat arrivals. Do whatever it takes to get planeloads of new arrivals on the way to a third country and also remove the ones who are already here. If it upsets a few liberals and they need to enable it with very tough laws that override the courts and international treaties then that's what it will take.

    This has been going on too long and just as with the OSA, it's law abiding citizens who will bear that brunt of the fallout, including any citizens who look like they are from an Asian or African country. The blame lies squarely on the politicians for ignoring the public on the subject of immigration for the past 20 years.
    No, racism is the fault of racists. Stop making excuses for these scrotes.
    And this is why Reform are going to win a majority in 2028/29. You think admonishing or locking up a few people will solve the problem. It doesn't. The cause is uncontrolled illegal immigration, while that is still going no amount of locking up ordinary people is going to stop them from wanting fewer people who don't look like them in the country.

    The UK is one of the best places in the world to be a foreign looking person, however, that is now being stretched to breaking point because the state just seems incapable of keeping us safe from illegal immigrants.

    You keep ignoring the causes and try to treat the symptoms and you keep on losing. I just hope that when Reform arrives they are sensible and don't try and attack already naturalised citizen rights. I don't think they will but we are heading towards a huge over correction on immigration because of the last few years.
    To be certain of a majority of a majority Reform need to be on 40-45%+ not roughly 30%, especially given the combined LD and Green vote is over 20% and offers Labour plenty of opportunity to squeeze them for tactical votes.

    Whether the deal with France and the High Court decision leads to a decline in illegal migration I agree is still open for discussion
    Labour got 34% at the last election and came away with a huge majority. Reform won't even need one half as big. They could easily get a majority on 35% of the vote.

    Labour may try and squeeze the other parties but if anything the national mood is to get rid of Labour and give them a kicking just as it was for the Tories in 2024 who appealed to Reform defectors to come back so that Labour wouldn't get a big majority. Governing parties rarely benefit from tactical voting.
    Labour had massive tactical voting FOR them from the LDs and Greens, Reform will largely have tactical voting AGAINST them unless they can really squeeze down the Tory vote to next to nothing in their target seats.

    Blair got tactical votes for his government heavily in 2001 and even in some marginals in 2005 to keep Howard from No 10.

    Boris and May also probably got some tactical votes in 2017 and 2019 to keep out Corbyn
    Yes but that was when they were in opposition, now they lead an incredibly unpopular government. Voters have decisively turned against Labour and the PM, it's more likely that Labour votes get squeezed by other parties.
    With a 13% approval rating, and 19% poll rating, tactical voting will work against you, not for you.
  • eekeek Posts: 31,007
    edited August 21

    MaxPB said:

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    You can't come in promising change and then deliver the same shoddy, half baked governing as the last lot. If anything they've made things worse, inflation is back up, the economy is slowing down, business investment has cratered, unemployment is up and the border crisis is worse than what the Tories left behind.

    There aren't any measures where Labour are doing anything appreciably better than the previous government, therefore they are now just as unpopular. I also think people really, really don't like Starmer. Very few defenders left (mostly on here).
    The change they implemented was to increase the worst possible tax to increase, one they said they wouldn't.

    Queue people defending it by pretending its only the other half of NI they said they wouldn't increase.

    There have been no serious reforms implemented at all. No ideas.
    SKS never promised to not increase Employer NI which is why they increased it.

    Now it was a very stupid idea especially when attached to a minimum wage increase that was beyond what many companies could afford but given how much Reeves’s tried to avoid breaking the promise she had little choice.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,389
    HYUFD said:

    You would have to go back to maybe Heath's 1970-1974 government to find a party as unpopular as Starmer's government is in only their first term of government, even Thatcher's pre Falklands or the 1974-1979 Labour government was not this unpopular at this stage.

    However Starmer has the advantage that his main opponent is likely to be Farage and there are plenty of LD and Green voters who would vote Labour in Labour marginals to keep Reform from power even if they are not great fans of this Labour government. Of course if the Tories still were the main opposition and had a charismatic and centrist leader they would be heading for a likely Tory landslide.

    Indeed Starmer likely also wants a Tory poll recovery, which would probably come mainly at Reform's expense, whether under Kemi or a new Tory leader like Stride, Cleverly or Jenrick

    Labour has largely maxed out the Lib Dem and Green tactical vote in Red Wall seats. What there is, in many such seats, is a sizeable Conservative vote, which is more likely to vote Reform than Labour, tactically.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,684
    Sean_F said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Although there has always been significant racism in Britain, over the last year it seems to have changed from covert racism to overt racism. Although it’s better out in the open, it is becoming acceptable, which is not good.

    There's never been less racism in Britain than now.
    I disagree.

    My experiences are getting worse.

    Recently asked by a stranger if I came over on a boat.

    Out of curiosity are you a person of colour?
    That's very sad to hear TSE. I think it's an inevitable consequence of uncontrolled and very visible illegal immigration. People are fed up of having their money and resources spent on these freeloaders and it's starting to boil over.

    Labour really need to lance the boil and bring back a mass deportations scheme for boat arrivals. Do whatever it takes to get planeloads of new arrivals on the way to a third country and also remove the ones who are already here. If it upsets a few liberals and they need to enable it with very tough laws that override the courts and international treaties then that's what it will take.

    This has been going on too long and just as with the OSA, it's law abiding citizens who will bear that brunt of the fallout, including any citizens who look like they are from an Asian or African country. The blame lies squarely on the politicians for ignoring the public on the subject of immigration for the past 20 years.
    No, racism is the fault of racists. Stop making excuses for these scrotes.
    And this is why Reform are going to win a majority in 2028/29. You think admonishing or locking up a few people will solve the problem. It doesn't. The cause is uncontrolled illegal immigration, while that is still going no amount of locking up ordinary people is going to stop them from wanting fewer people who don't look like them in the country.

    The UK is one of the best places in the world to be a foreign looking person, however, that is now being stretched to breaking point because the state just seems incapable of keeping us safe from illegal immigrants.

    You keep ignoring the causes and try to treat the symptoms and you keep on losing. I just hope that when Reform arrives they are sensible and don't try and attack already naturalised citizen rights. I don't think they will but we are heading towards a huge over correction on immigration because of the last few years.
    To be certain of a majority of a majority Reform need to be on 40-45%+ not roughly 30%, especially given the combined LD and Green vote is over 20% and offers Labour plenty of opportunity to squeeze them for tactical votes.

    Whether the deal with France and the High Court decision leads to a decline in illegal migration I agree is still open for discussion
    Labour got 34% at the last election and came away with a huge majority. Reform won't even need one half as big. They could easily get a majority on 35% of the vote.

    Labour may try and squeeze the other parties but if anything the national mood is to get rid of Labour and give them a kicking just as it was for the Tories in 2024 who appealed to Reform defectors to come back so that Labour wouldn't get a big majority. Governing parties rarely benefit from tactical voting.
    Labour had massive tactical voting FOR them from the LDs and Greens, Reform will largely have tactical voting AGAINST them unless they can really squeeze down the Tory vote to next to nothing in their target seats.

    Blair got tactical votes for his government heavily in 2001 and even in some marginals in 2005 to keep Howard from No 10.

    Boris and May also probably got some tactical votes in 2017 and 2019 to keep out Corbyn
    Yes but that was when they were in opposition, now they lead an incredibly unpopular government. Voters have decisively turned against Labour and the PM, it's more likely that Labour votes get squeezed by other parties.
    With a 13% approval rating, and 19% poll rating, tactical voting will work against you, not for you.
    Yet Starmer still leads Farage 35% to 28% as preferred PM and Starmer leads Badenoch 30% to 20%.

    Davey though ties Starmer 20% each

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/52729-who-would-be-the-best-prime-minister-august-2025

  • eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    You can't come in promising change and then deliver the same shoddy, half baked governing as the last lot. If anything they've made things worse, inflation is back up, the economy is slowing down, business investment has cratered, unemployment is up and the border crisis is worse than what the Tories left behind.

    There aren't any measures where Labour are doing anything appreciably better than the previous government, therefore they are now just as unpopular. I also think people really, really don't like Starmer. Very few defenders left (mostly on here).
    The change they implemented was to increase the worst possible tax to increase, one they said they wouldn't.

    Queue people defending it by pretending its only the other half of NI they said they wouldn't increase.

    There have been no serious reforms implemented at all. No ideas.
    SKS never promised to not increase Employer NI which is why they increased it.

    Now it was a very stupid idea especially when attached to a minimum wage increase that was beyond what many companies could afford but given how much Reeves’s tried to avoid breaking the promise she had little choice.
    NI is exclusively a tax on working people.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,684

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    You can't come in promising change and then deliver the same shoddy, half baked governing as the last lot. If anything they've made things worse, inflation is back up, the economy is slowing down, business investment has cratered, unemployment is up and the border crisis is worse than what the Tories left behind.

    There aren't any measures where Labour are doing anything appreciably better than the previous government, therefore they are now just as unpopular. I also think people really, really don't like Starmer. Very few defenders left (mostly on here).
    I know this, you know this. But there are still a decent chunk of the country who for things like NI on your employer won't be directly seen by them. Many public sector workers have got large pay increases, as have minimum wage workers.

    Also they went hard on the narrative of the country is broken because of 14 years of Tory failure / £20bn blackhole. The Coalition did that in 2010 and it gave them a fair bit of breathing room. It doesn't seemed to have worked for Labour.

    And as you say, Starmer appears to really rub people up the wrong way. Which again, I find a little surprising. He isn't my cup of tea, I find him massively uninspiring and overpromoted, but it doesn't drive me to want to smash my telly up like Gordon Brown. I also presumed a decent chunk of people who go for the spin of well he is boring and reliable unlike Boris.
    I suspect a big chunk of that 13% is made up of public sector workers who have benefited from pay rises.
    Public sector pay has gone up by less than private sector since Labour came to power, so I doubt they're particularly happy either.
    Not if you are a doctor or train driver and of course there are now more job applicants than vacancies as private sector job creation falls
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,796
    I think tactical voting is much less likely to be a factor when there are such large swings in party support. It becomes much harder to work out how to vote tactically to achieve the outcome you want.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,966
    edited August 21
    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    You can't come in promising change and then deliver the same shoddy, half baked governing as the last lot. If anything they've made things worse, inflation is back up, the economy is slowing down, business investment has cratered, unemployment is up and the border crisis is worse than what the Tories left behind.

    There aren't any measures where Labour are doing anything appreciably better than the previous government, therefore they are now just as unpopular. I also think people really, really don't like Starmer. Very few defenders left (mostly on here).
    The change they implemented was to increase the worst possible tax to increase, one they said they wouldn't.

    Queue people defending it by pretending its only the other half of NI they said they wouldn't increase.

    There have been no serious reforms implemented at all. No ideas.
    SKS never promised to not increase Employer NI which is why they increased it.

    Now it was a very stupid idea especially when attached to a minimum wage increase that was beyond what many companies could afford but given how much Reeves’s tried to avoid breaking the promise she had little choice.
    The IFS have repeated called them out on this stating in their opinion it is absolutely clear as day they have broken their promise on this. Some of their material they put out just talked about NI in general, not employer vs employee NI.

    The problem is now they doubly boxed themselves in, still trying to claim no we CAN'T break any promises, and we HAVEN'T broken any to date and we won't in the future. So now they are going to find other taxes to rise that will have worse effects.

    At least Osborne, just came out and said sorry hard times, VAT is going up.
  • eekeek Posts: 31,007

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    You can't come in promising change and then deliver the same shoddy, half baked governing as the last lot. If anything they've made things worse, inflation is back up, the economy is slowing down, business investment has cratered, unemployment is up and the border crisis is worse than what the Tories left behind.

    There aren't any measures where Labour are doing anything appreciably better than the previous government, therefore they are now just as unpopular. I also think people really, really don't like Starmer. Very few defenders left (mostly on here).
    The change they implemented was to increase the worst possible tax to increase, one they said they wouldn't.

    Queue people defending it by pretending its only the other half of NI they said they wouldn't increase.

    There have been no serious reforms implemented at all. No ideas.
    SKS never promised to not increase Employer NI which is why they increased it.

    Now it was a very stupid idea especially when attached to a minimum wage increase that was beyond what many companies could afford but given how much Reeves’s tried to avoid breaking the promise she had little choice.
    The IFS have repeated called them out on this as having broken their promises. Some of their material they put out just talked about NI in general, not employer vs employee NI.
    That’s never going to get traction because the promise was not to increase taxes voters pay.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,867
    HYUFD said:

    You would have to go back to maybe Heath's 1970-1974 government to find a party as unpopular as Starmer's government is in only their first term of government, even Thatcher's pre Falklands or the 1974-1979 Labour government was not this unpopular at this stage.

    However Starmer has the advantage that his main opponent is likely to be Farage and there are plenty of LD and Green voters who would vote Labour in Labour marginals to keep Reform from power even if they are not great fans of this Labour government. Of course if the Tories still were the main opposition and had a charismatic and centrist leader they would be heading for a likely Tory landslide.

    Indeed Starmer likely also wants a Tory poll recovery, which would probably come mainly at Reform's expense, whether under Kemi or a new Tory leader like Stride, Cleverly or Jenrick

    Starmer too has the advantage that there's no real reason that his government is so unpopular. He also has the disadvantage of exactly the same thing.

    The Reform vote won't last - not least because if they ever have a get together they'll thin their own numbers down.

  • eekeek Posts: 31,007
    edited August 21

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    You can't come in promising change and then deliver the same shoddy, half baked governing as the last lot. If anything they've made things worse, inflation is back up, the economy is slowing down, business investment has cratered, unemployment is up and the border crisis is worse than what the Tories left behind.

    There aren't any measures where Labour are doing anything appreciably better than the previous government, therefore they are now just as unpopular. I also think people really, really don't like Starmer. Very few defenders left (mostly on here).
    The change they implemented was to increase the worst possible tax to increase, one they said they wouldn't.

    Queue people defending it by pretending its only the other half of NI they said they wouldn't increase.

    There have been no serious reforms implemented at all. No ideas.
    SKS never promised to not increase Employer NI which is why they increased it.

    Now it was a very stupid idea especially when attached to a minimum wage increase that was beyond what many companies could afford but given how much Reeves’s tried to avoid breaking the promise she had little choice.
    NI is exclusively a tax on working people.
    Not quite employer NI is a tax on business for employing people and a massive disincentive for doing so
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 6,382

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    The right-wing media are doing a grand job of pinning the blame onto Labour for much of the shite that the Tories are responsible for.

    The latest is that putting migrants up in hotels is a "Labour Policy". Which is now "in tatters".

    Of course, the government has also been busting gut to make itself as unpopular as possible, without actually achieving much in return.

    Pain, but no gain.
    The media haven’t been totally successful in their campaign to blame Labour.

    Today’s YouGov daily question.

    Which government do you hold most responsible for the current issues around asylum seekers being housed in hotels?
    Conducted 21 August 2025
    YouGov surveyed 5292 GB adults

    BY:

    The previous Conservative government
    28%
    The current Labour government
    19%
    Both equally
    40%
    Neither
    3%
    Don't know
    11%
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,684

    I think tactical voting is much less likely to be a factor when there are such large swings in party support. It becomes much harder to work out how to vote tactically to achieve the outcome you want.

    Not if you live in a Labour or LD or Tory held seat, there you vote for the incumbent MP if your main goal is to keep out Farage from No10.

    Reform however will have trouble getting lots of Tory tactical votes in seats where the Tories were second last time and those still backing the Tories will therefore still see voting Tory in those areas as the best way to beat Labour or the LDs
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,966
    edited August 21
    eek said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    You can't come in promising change and then deliver the same shoddy, half baked governing as the last lot. If anything they've made things worse, inflation is back up, the economy is slowing down, business investment has cratered, unemployment is up and the border crisis is worse than what the Tories left behind.

    There aren't any measures where Labour are doing anything appreciably better than the previous government, therefore they are now just as unpopular. I also think people really, really don't like Starmer. Very few defenders left (mostly on here).
    The change they implemented was to increase the worst possible tax to increase, one they said they wouldn't.

    Queue people defending it by pretending its only the other half of NI they said they wouldn't increase.

    There have been no serious reforms implemented at all. No ideas.
    SKS never promised to not increase Employer NI which is why they increased it.

    Now it was a very stupid idea especially when attached to a minimum wage increase that was beyond what many companies could afford but given how much Reeves’s tried to avoid breaking the promise she had little choice.
    The IFS have repeated called them out on this as having broken their promises. Some of their material they put out just talked about NI in general, not employer vs employee NI.
    That’s never going to get traction because the promise was not to increase taxes voters pay.
    Well given how bad their ratings are, something has got traction.

    As I said below, its actually double bad, because they are sticking with his lie and boxing themselves in, so will raise taxes that have far worse effects.

    They had a window of the first budget to say things are worse than we thought (a lie, but a more passable one) and so I am afraid you will have to trust us as we have to make these changes to taxation as they are the least worst option. Judge us in 5 years time on these decisions.

    This is what Cameron / Osborne did.
  • eek said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    You can't come in promising change and then deliver the same shoddy, half baked governing as the last lot. If anything they've made things worse, inflation is back up, the economy is slowing down, business investment has cratered, unemployment is up and the border crisis is worse than what the Tories left behind.

    There aren't any measures where Labour are doing anything appreciably better than the previous government, therefore they are now just as unpopular. I also think people really, really don't like Starmer. Very few defenders left (mostly on here).
    The change they implemented was to increase the worst possible tax to increase, one they said they wouldn't.

    Queue people defending it by pretending its only the other half of NI they said they wouldn't increase.

    There have been no serious reforms implemented at all. No ideas.
    SKS never promised to not increase Employer NI which is why they increased it.

    Now it was a very stupid idea especially when attached to a minimum wage increase that was beyond what many companies could afford but given how much Reeves’s tried to avoid breaking the promise she had little choice.
    The IFS have repeated called them out on this as having broken their promises. Some of their material they put out just talked about NI in general, not employer vs employee NI.
    That’s never going to get traction because the promise was not to increase taxes voters pay.
    Wrong.

    The wording was that they would "not increase taxes on working people, which is why we will not increase National Insurance, the basic, higher, or additional rates of Income Tax, or VAT"

    Employers NI is a tax on working people.

    If they wanted to say Employees NI they could have said that, they did not, they said National Insurance which includes both types.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,684
    edited August 21
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    You would have to go back to maybe Heath's 1970-1974 government to find a party as unpopular as Starmer's government is in only their first term of government, even Thatcher's pre Falklands or the 1974-1979 Labour government was not this unpopular at this stage.

    However Starmer has the advantage that his main opponent is likely to be Farage and there are plenty of LD and Green voters who would vote Labour in Labour marginals to keep Reform from power even if they are not great fans of this Labour government. Of course if the Tories still were the main opposition and had a charismatic and centrist leader they would be heading for a likely Tory landslide.

    Indeed Starmer likely also wants a Tory poll recovery, which would probably come mainly at Reform's expense, whether under Kemi or a new Tory leader like Stride, Cleverly or Jenrick

    Labour has largely maxed out the Lib Dem and Green tactical vote in Red Wall seats. What there is, in many such seats, is a sizeable Conservative vote, which is more likely to vote Reform than Labour, tactically.
    If Tories were runners up in a Labour held seat last year why would they not still vote Tory next time? If Labour win redwall seats it will be from direct Labour to Reform switchers, not Tory tactical votes.

    If Labour hold enough marginal seats to stay in power though, even with no majority, it will be tactical votes for them that will likely be key
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,890
    nico67 said:

    All my Labour friends hate Starmer . Equally they absolutely loathe Farage and Reform .

    Labour have managed to alienate everyone . I’m surprised they’re even polling above the Tories in most polls.

    My feelings. I loathe what Starmer did to those who understood Israel's genocidal tendancies before he did. He kicked them out of the Party on the most spurious grounds and brought in some hand picked 'Friends of Israel'.

    Similar in many ways to Boris and his Brexiteers. By the time the penny dropped they'd both alienated the most principled members of their respective parties.

    The only glint of light for Starmer is that his two opponents are worse. Whether that'ill save him is too early to say. Perhaps a sweetener like an offer to 'Rejoin' might do it.?

    With a very tight clothes peg it would just about do it for me.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,855
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    You can't come in promising change and then deliver the same shoddy, half baked governing as the last lot. If anything they've made things worse, inflation is back up, the economy is slowing down, business investment has cratered, unemployment is up and the border crisis is worse than what the Tories left behind.

    There aren't any measures where Labour are doing anything appreciably better than the previous government, therefore they are now just as unpopular. I also think people really, really don't like Starmer. Very few defenders left (mostly on here).
    I know this, you know this. But there are still a decent chunk of the country who for things like NI on your employer won't be directly seen by them. Many public sector workers have got large pay increases, as have minimum wage workers.

    Also they went hard on the narrative of the country is broken because of 14 years of Tory failure / £20bn blackhole. The Coalition did that in 2010 and it gave them a fair bit of breathing room. It doesn't seemed to have worked for Labour.

    And as you say, Starmer appears to really rub people up the wrong way. Which again, I find a little surprising. He isn't my cup of tea, I find him massively uninspiring and overpromoted, but it doesn't drive me to want to smash my telly up like Gordon Brown. I also presumed a decent chunk of people who go for the spin of well he is boring and reliable unlike Boris.
    I suspect a big chunk of that 13% is made up of public sector workers who have benefited from pay rises.
    Probably - but most public sector workers have not benefited like doctors or train drivers. I work in the public sector, and the contempt for Labour is palpable. It's not, to be fair, quite as much as the contempt for Labour when Jeremy Corbyn was leader. But for most of my life, Labour have been beyond criticism. That they are now being discussed with just as much contempt as the previous government is hard to adjust to. Perhaps public sector workers, like the government themselves, thought all Lab would have to do was not be the Tories and all would be rosy for everyone, and the disappointment is leading to contempt.
    But that Labour have even lost the support of the middle class public sector support is quite remarkable.
  • eek said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    You can't come in promising change and then deliver the same shoddy, half baked governing as the last lot. If anything they've made things worse, inflation is back up, the economy is slowing down, business investment has cratered, unemployment is up and the border crisis is worse than what the Tories left behind.

    There aren't any measures where Labour are doing anything appreciably better than the previous government, therefore they are now just as unpopular. I also think people really, really don't like Starmer. Very few defenders left (mostly on here).
    The change they implemented was to increase the worst possible tax to increase, one they said they wouldn't.

    Queue people defending it by pretending its only the other half of NI they said they wouldn't increase.

    There have been no serious reforms implemented at all. No ideas.
    SKS never promised to not increase Employer NI which is why they increased it.

    Now it was a very stupid idea especially when attached to a minimum wage increase that was beyond what many companies could afford but given how much Reeves’s tried to avoid breaking the promise she had little choice.
    NI is exclusively a tax on working people.
    Not quite employer NI is a tax on business for employing people and a massive disincentive for doing so
    Its a tax on working people paid by the business. It is quite literally a tax on working people.
  • eekeek Posts: 31,007

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    You can't come in promising change and then deliver the same shoddy, half baked governing as the last lot. If anything they've made things worse, inflation is back up, the economy is slowing down, business investment has cratered, unemployment is up and the border crisis is worse than what the Tories left behind.

    There aren't any measures where Labour are doing anything appreciably better than the previous government, therefore they are now just as unpopular. I also think people really, really don't like Starmer. Very few defenders left (mostly on here).
    The change they implemented was to increase the worst possible tax to increase, one they said they wouldn't.

    Queue people defending it by pretending its only the other half of NI they said they wouldn't increase.

    There have been no serious reforms implemented at all. No ideas.
    SKS never promised to not increase Employer NI which is why they increased it.

    Now it was a very stupid idea especially when attached to a minimum wage increase that was beyond what many companies could afford but given how much Reeves’s tried to avoid breaking the promise she had little choice.
    The IFS have repeated called them out on this stating in their opinion it is absolutely clear as day they have broken their promise on this. Some of their material they put out just talked about NI in general, not employer vs employee NI.

    The problem is now they doubly boxed themselves in, still trying to claim no we CAN'T break any promises, and we HAVEN'T broken any to date and we won't in the future. So now they are going to find other taxes to rise that will have worse effects.

    At least Osborne, just came out and said sorry hard times, VAT is going up.
    Replying to you edit - remember my argument for a long time was reverse Hunt’s NI cut by increasing income tax and use the WFA to offset the pain for poorest pensioners.
  • eek said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    You can't come in promising change and then deliver the same shoddy, half baked governing as the last lot. If anything they've made things worse, inflation is back up, the economy is slowing down, business investment has cratered, unemployment is up and the border crisis is worse than what the Tories left behind.

    There aren't any measures where Labour are doing anything appreciably better than the previous government, therefore they are now just as unpopular. I also think people really, really don't like Starmer. Very few defenders left (mostly on here).
    The change they implemented was to increase the worst possible tax to increase, one they said they wouldn't.

    Queue people defending it by pretending its only the other half of NI they said they wouldn't increase.

    There have been no serious reforms implemented at all. No ideas.
    SKS never promised to not increase Employer NI which is why they increased it.

    Now it was a very stupid idea especially when attached to a minimum wage increase that was beyond what many companies could afford but given how much Reeves’s tried to avoid breaking the promise she had little choice.
    The IFS have repeated called them out on this stating in their opinion it is absolutely clear as day they have broken their promise on this. Some of their material they put out just talked about NI in general, not employer vs employee NI.

    The problem is now they doubly boxed themselves in, still trying to claim no we CAN'T break any promises, and we HAVEN'T broken any to date and we won't in the future. So now they are going to find other taxes to rise that will have worse effects.

    At least Osborne, just came out and said sorry hard times, VAT is going up.
    Replying to you edit - remember my argument for a long time was reverse Hunt’s NI cut by increasing income tax and use the WFA to offset the pain for poorest pensioners.
    Considering Hunt's NI change was part of a package that raised taxes, how would you fund the reversal given that would be a net tax cut?

    Or are you disingenuously isolating one part of the package while discarding the rest of it?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,867
    Cookie said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    You can't come in promising change and then deliver the same shoddy, half baked governing as the last lot. If anything they've made things worse, inflation is back up, the economy is slowing down, business investment has cratered, unemployment is up and the border crisis is worse than what the Tories left behind.

    There aren't any measures where Labour are doing anything appreciably better than the previous government, therefore they are now just as unpopular. I also think people really, really don't like Starmer. Very few defenders left (mostly on here).
    I know this, you know this. But there are still a decent chunk of the country who for things like NI on your employer won't be directly seen by them. Many public sector workers have got large pay increases, as have minimum wage workers.

    Also they went hard on the narrative of the country is broken because of 14 years of Tory failure / £20bn blackhole. The Coalition did that in 2010 and it gave them a fair bit of breathing room. It doesn't seemed to have worked for Labour.

    And as you say, Starmer appears to really rub people up the wrong way. Which again, I find a little surprising. He isn't my cup of tea, I find him massively uninspiring and overpromoted, but it doesn't drive me to want to smash my telly up like Gordon Brown. I also presumed a decent chunk of people who go for the spin of well he is boring and reliable unlike Boris.
    I suspect a big chunk of that 13% is made up of public sector workers who have benefited from pay rises.
    Probably - but most public sector workers have not benefited like doctors or train drivers. I work in the public sector, and the contempt for Labour is palpable. It's not, to be fair, quite as much as the contempt for Labour when Jeremy Corbyn was leader. But for most of my life, Labour have been beyond criticism. That they are now being discussed with just as much contempt as the previous government is hard to adjust to. Perhaps public sector workers, like the government themselves, thought all Lab would have to do was not be the Tories and all would be rosy for everyone, and the disappointment is leading to contempt.
    But that Labour have even lost the support of the middle class public sector support is quite remarkable.
    "Labour have been beyond criticism" - this is a very longstanding legacy of Labour's origins. It's quite Orwellian really. The Tories suppress free speech (perhaps) and Labour supress free thought (perhaps).

    For neither party is it true, but in both cases there are elements of truth.
  • eekeek Posts: 31,007

    eek said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    You can't come in promising change and then deliver the same shoddy, half baked governing as the last lot. If anything they've made things worse, inflation is back up, the economy is slowing down, business investment has cratered, unemployment is up and the border crisis is worse than what the Tories left behind.

    There aren't any measures where Labour are doing anything appreciably better than the previous government, therefore they are now just as unpopular. I also think people really, really don't like Starmer. Very few defenders left (mostly on here).
    The change they implemented was to increase the worst possible tax to increase, one they said they wouldn't.

    Queue people defending it by pretending its only the other half of NI they said they wouldn't increase.

    There have been no serious reforms implemented at all. No ideas.
    SKS never promised to not increase Employer NI which is why they increased it.

    Now it was a very stupid idea especially when attached to a minimum wage increase that was beyond what many companies could afford but given how much Reeves’s tried to avoid breaking the promise she had little choice.
    The IFS have repeated called them out on this stating in their opinion it is absolutely clear as day they have broken their promise on this. Some of their material they put out just talked about NI in general, not employer vs employee NI.

    The problem is now they doubly boxed themselves in, still trying to claim no we CAN'T break any promises, and we HAVEN'T broken any to date and we won't in the future. So now they are going to find other taxes to rise that will have worse effects.

    At least Osborne, just came out and said sorry hard times, VAT is going up.
    Replying to you edit - remember my argument for a long time was reverse Hunt’s NI cut by increasing income tax and use the WFA to offset the pain for poorest pensioners.
    Considering Hunt's NI change was part of a package that raised taxes, how would you fund the reversal given that would be a net tax cut?

    Or are you disingenuously isolating one part of the package while discarding the rest of it?
    My viewpoint is Hunt didn’t have the leeway to cut employee NI - I.e. he didn’t raise taxes enough in 2023/4
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,035
    edited August 21
    MaxPB said:

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    You can't come in promising change and then deliver the same shoddy, half baked governing as the last lot. If anything they've made things worse, inflation is back up, the economy is slowing down, business investment has cratered, unemployment is up and the border crisis is worse than what the Tories left behind.

    There aren't any measures where Labour are doing anything appreciably better than the previous government, therefore they are now just as unpopular. I also think people really, really don't like Starmer. Very few defenders left (mostly on here).
    It's probably the blob and civil service that are more to blame than Labour. Most of them want everything to be the same as it was in the 1997 to 2016 period.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,389
    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    You would have to go back to maybe Heath's 1970-1974 government to find a party as unpopular as Starmer's government is in only their first term of government, even Thatcher's pre Falklands or the 1974-1979 Labour government was not this unpopular at this stage.

    However Starmer has the advantage that his main opponent is likely to be Farage and there are plenty of LD and Green voters who would vote Labour in Labour marginals to keep Reform from power even if they are not great fans of this Labour government. Of course if the Tories still were the main opposition and had a charismatic and centrist leader they would be heading for a likely Tory landslide.

    Indeed Starmer likely also wants a Tory poll recovery, which would probably come mainly at Reform's expense, whether under Kemi or a new Tory leader like Stride, Cleverly or Jenrick

    Labour has largely maxed out the Lib Dem and Green tactical vote in Red Wall seats. What there is, in many such seats, is a sizeable Conservative vote, which is more likely to vote Reform than Labour, tactically.
    If Tories were runners up in a Labour held seat last year why would they not still vote Tory next time? If Labour win redwall seats it will be from direct Labour to Reform switchers, not Tory tactical votes.

    If Labour hold enough marginal seats to stay in power though, even with no majority, it will be tactical votes for them that will likely be key
    25% of 2024 Tories have now switched to Reform.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,684
    Roger said:

    nico67 said:

    All my Labour friends hate Starmer . Equally they absolutely loathe Farage and Reform .

    Labour have managed to alienate everyone . I’m surprised they’re even polling above the Tories in most polls.

    My feelings. I loathe what Starmer did to those who understood Israel's genocidal tendancies before he did. He kicked them out of the Party on the most spurious grounds and brought in some hand picked 'Friends of Israel'.

    Similar in many ways to Boris and his Brexiteers. By the time the penny dropped they'd both alienated the most principled members of their respective parties.

    The only glint of light for Starmer is that his two opponents are worse. Whether that'ill save him is too early to say. Perhaps a sweetener like an offer to 'Rejoin' might do it.?

    With a very tight clothes peg it would just about do it for me.
    And hand all the redwall seats and marginal seats Labour won from the Conservatives last year to Farage on a plate, voters who most want to rejoin the EU either live in safe Labour inner city or university town seats or posh LD held seats in the South or SNP held seats in Scotland or Plaid held seats in Wales. Whereas most voters in Labour held marginal seats voted Leave in 2016 and Conservative in 2017 and 2019
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,389
    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Although there has always been significant racism in Britain, over the last year it seems to have changed from covert racism to overt racism. Although it’s better out in the open, it is becoming acceptable, which is not good.

    There's never been less racism in Britain than now.
    I disagree.

    My experiences are getting worse.

    Recently asked by a stranger if I came over on a boat.

    Out of curiosity are you a person of colour?
    That's very sad to hear TSE. I think it's an inevitable consequence of uncontrolled and very visible illegal immigration. People are fed up of having their money and resources spent on these freeloaders and it's starting to boil over.

    Labour really need to lance the boil and bring back a mass deportations scheme for boat arrivals. Do whatever it takes to get planeloads of new arrivals on the way to a third country and also remove the ones who are already here. If it upsets a few liberals and they need to enable it with very tough laws that override the courts and international treaties then that's what it will take.

    This has been going on too long and just as with the OSA, it's law abiding citizens who will bear that brunt of the fallout, including any citizens who look like they are from an Asian or African country. The blame lies squarely on the politicians for ignoring the public on the subject of immigration for the past 20 years.
    No, racism is the fault of racists. Stop making excuses for these scrotes.
    And this is why Reform are going to win a majority in 2028/29. You think admonishing or locking up a few people will solve the problem. It doesn't. The cause is uncontrolled illegal immigration, while that is still going no amount of locking up ordinary people is going to stop them from wanting fewer people who don't look like them in the country.

    The UK is one of the best places in the world to be a foreign looking person, however, that is now being stretched to breaking point because the state just seems incapable of keeping us safe from illegal immigrants.

    You keep ignoring the causes and try to treat the symptoms and you keep on losing. I just hope that when Reform arrives they are sensible and don't try and attack already naturalised citizen rights. I don't think they will but we are heading towards a huge over correction on immigration because of the last few years.
    To be certain of a majority of a majority Reform need to be on 40-45%+ not roughly 30%, especially given the combined LD and Green vote is over 20% and offers Labour plenty of opportunity to squeeze them for tactical votes.

    Whether the deal with France and the High Court decision leads to a decline in illegal migration I agree is still open for discussion
    Labour got 34% at the last election and came away with a huge majority. Reform won't even need one half as big. They could easily get a majority on 35% of the vote.

    Labour may try and squeeze the other parties but if anything the national mood is to get rid of Labour and give them a kicking just as it was for the Tories in 2024 who appealed to Reform defectors to come back so that Labour wouldn't get a big majority. Governing parties rarely benefit from tactical voting.
    Labour had massive tactical voting FOR them from the LDs and Greens, Reform will largely have tactical voting AGAINST them unless they can really squeeze down the Tory vote to next to nothing in their target seats.

    Blair got tactical votes for his government heavily in 2001 and even in some marginals in 2005 to keep Howard from No 10.

    Boris and May also probably got some tactical votes in 2017 and 2019 to keep out Corbyn
    Yes but that was when they were in opposition, now they lead an incredibly unpopular government. Voters have decisively turned against Labour and the PM, it's more likely that Labour votes get squeezed by other parties.
    With a 13% approval rating, and 19% poll rating, tactical voting will work against you, not for you.
    Yet Starmer still leads Farage 35% to 28% as preferred PM and Starmer leads Badenoch 30% to 20%.

    Davey though ties Starmer 20% each

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/52729-who-would-be-the-best-prime-minister-august-2025

    Preferred PM always favours the PM. Favourability ratings are more significant.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,389
    Roger said:

    nico67 said:

    All my Labour friends hate Starmer . Equally they absolutely loathe Farage and Reform .

    Labour have managed to alienate everyone . I’m surprised they’re even polling above the Tories in most polls.

    My feelings. I loathe what Starmer did to those who understood Israel's genocidal tendancies before he did. He kicked them out of the Party on the most spurious grounds and brought in some hand picked 'Friends of Israel'.

    Similar in many ways to Boris and his Brexiteers. By the time the penny dropped they'd both alienated the most principled members of their respective parties.

    The only glint of light for Starmer is that his two opponents are worse. Whether that'ill save him is too early to say. Perhaps a sweetener like an offer to 'Rejoin' might do it.?

    With a very tight clothes peg it would just about do it for me.
    The people that Starmer kicked out went *a long* way further than simply criticising the Israeli government. They were the sort of people no party wants in its ranks.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,550
    eek said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    You can't come in promising change and then deliver the same shoddy, half baked governing as the last lot. If anything they've made things worse, inflation is back up, the economy is slowing down, business investment has cratered, unemployment is up and the border crisis is worse than what the Tories left behind.

    There aren't any measures where Labour are doing anything appreciably better than the previous government, therefore they are now just as unpopular. I also think people really, really don't like Starmer. Very few defenders left (mostly on here).
    The change they implemented was to increase the worst possible tax to increase, one they said they wouldn't.

    Queue people defending it by pretending its only the other half of NI they said they wouldn't increase.

    There have been no serious reforms implemented at all. No ideas.
    SKS never promised to not increase Employer NI which is why they increased it.

    Now it was a very stupid idea especially when attached to a minimum wage increase that was beyond what many companies could afford but given how much Reeves’s tried to avoid breaking the promise she had little choice.
    The IFS have repeated called them out on this as having broken their promises. Some of their material they put out just talked about NI in general, not employer vs employee NI.
    That’s never going to get traction because the promise was not to increase taxes voters pay.
    Yes, they hoped that voters wouldn't notice 4 years of high inflation as companies clawed back their margins but apparently not, given these ratings.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,447
    People seem to be disregarding the option of ditching Starmer and pretending it's an entirely new government trick.
    I know it's more difficult for Labour, but the Tories managed it four times.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,966
    edited August 21
    dixiedean said:

    People seem to be disregarding the option of ditching Starmer and pretending it's an entirely new government trick.
    I know it's more difficult for Labour, but the Tories managed it four times.

    Canada waves.

    The only problem is who do Labour have waiting in the wings. Its the same problem the Tories have.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,035
    "Reform UK launches Operation Stop Jenrick
    By Rob Lownie"

    https://unherd.com/newsroom/reform-uk-launches-operation-stop-jenrick
  • eekeek Posts: 31,007
    edited August 21
    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    You can't come in promising change and then deliver the same shoddy, half baked governing as the last lot. If anything they've made things worse, inflation is back up, the economy is slowing down, business investment has cratered, unemployment is up and the border crisis is worse than what the Tories left behind.

    There aren't any measures where Labour are doing anything appreciably better than the previous government, therefore they are now just as unpopular. I also think people really, really don't like Starmer. Very few defenders left (mostly on here).
    The change they implemented was to increase the worst possible tax to increase, one they said they wouldn't.

    Queue people defending it by pretending its only the other half of NI they said they wouldn't increase.

    There have been no serious reforms implemented at all. No ideas.
    SKS never promised to not increase Employer NI which is why they increased it.

    Now it was a very stupid idea especially when attached to a minimum wage increase that was beyond what many companies could afford but given how much Reeves’s tried to avoid breaking the promise she had little choice.
    The IFS have repeated called them out on this as having broken their promises. Some of their material they put out just talked about NI in general, not employer vs employee NI.
    That’s never going to get traction because the promise was not to increase taxes voters pay.
    Yes, they hoped that voters wouldn't notice 4 years of high inflation as companies clawed back their margins but apparently not, given these ratings.
    You will note that I’m very consistent in my “ I wouldn’t be doing it that way” viewpoint

    And we are witnessing another example this week because I haven’t a clue what the purpose of the current housing story is beyond scaring people into not doing nothing in case they end up in an impossible situation come November’s budget
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,852
    Pulpstar said:

    I presume the Mail isn't accepting comments on this because it is sub judice https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15021327/Snapchat-date-manhood-taken-away-sex-trans-woman.html
    the trial continues...

    Unedifying. But who are all the different people pictured & why?
  • Considering SKS's mantra of "change" its amusing to compare the first 12 months of Tony Blair versus Sir Keir Starmer, who represented "change" better? BTW not suggesting all these changes are good (indeed some I vehemently oppose as bad) but they're changes.

    Blair:
    Bank of England independence
    Devolution
    Northern Ireland peace process
    House of Lords reform
    Human Rights Act
    Minimum wage legislation
    Increased funding for schools, introduction of literacy and numeracy hours in primary schools.
    New Deal for the unemployed
    Student finance reform
    Referendum on London government
    Introduction of Anti-Social Behaviour Orders (ASBOs)
    Extra NHS funding and a pledge to reduce waiting lists; introduced the principle of targets and performance management.

    Sir Keir Starmer
    Tax rise on NI
    Creation of Great British Energy
    Strategic Defence Review
    Cut winter fuel allowance then largely reversed the cut
    Proposed then reversed welfare reform

    Where are the changes?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,447
    Andy_JS said:

    "Reform UK launches Operation Stop Jenrick
    By Rob Lownie"

    https://unherd.com/newsroom/reform-uk-launches-operation-stop-jenrick

    Are they going to tow him back or machine gun him in the water?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,966
    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    You can't come in promising change and then deliver the same shoddy, half baked governing as the last lot. If anything they've made things worse, inflation is back up, the economy is slowing down, business investment has cratered, unemployment is up and the border crisis is worse than what the Tories left behind.

    There aren't any measures where Labour are doing anything appreciably better than the previous government, therefore they are now just as unpopular. I also think people really, really don't like Starmer. Very few defenders left (mostly on here).
    The change they implemented was to increase the worst possible tax to increase, one they said they wouldn't.

    Queue people defending it by pretending its only the other half of NI they said they wouldn't increase.

    There have been no serious reforms implemented at all. No ideas.
    SKS never promised to not increase Employer NI which is why they increased it.

    Now it was a very stupid idea especially when attached to a minimum wage increase that was beyond what many companies could afford but given how much Reeves’s tried to avoid breaking the promise she had little choice.
    The IFS have repeated called them out on this as having broken their promises. Some of their material they put out just talked about NI in general, not employer vs employee NI.
    That’s never going to get traction because the promise was not to increase taxes voters pay.
    Yes, they hoped that voters wouldn't notice 4 years of high inflation as companies clawed back their margins but apparently not, given these ratings.
    You will note that I’m very consistent in my “ I wouldn’t be doing it that way” viewpoint

    And we are witnessing another example this week because I haven’t a clue what the purpose of the current housing story is beyond scaring people into not doing nothing in case they end up in an impossible situation come November’s budget
    I believe they are trying the same trick as last time, by using anchoring. Leak all this stuff that makes it sound like daily punishment beatings, the media jump all over it with the most doomster predictions, then when it turns out we only get beaten on weekends, the government spin is things aren't that bad, it could have been worse, but because of how good Rachel from Accounts is that saved us from the worst of it.
  • eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    You can't come in promising change and then deliver the same shoddy, half baked governing as the last lot. If anything they've made things worse, inflation is back up, the economy is slowing down, business investment has cratered, unemployment is up and the border crisis is worse than what the Tories left behind.

    There aren't any measures where Labour are doing anything appreciably better than the previous government, therefore they are now just as unpopular. I also think people really, really don't like Starmer. Very few defenders left (mostly on here).
    The change they implemented was to increase the worst possible tax to increase, one they said they wouldn't.

    Queue people defending it by pretending its only the other half of NI they said they wouldn't increase.

    There have been no serious reforms implemented at all. No ideas.
    SKS never promised to not increase Employer NI which is why they increased it.

    Now it was a very stupid idea especially when attached to a minimum wage increase that was beyond what many companies could afford but given how much Reeves’s tried to avoid breaking the promise she had little choice.
    The IFS have repeated called them out on this stating in their opinion it is absolutely clear as day they have broken their promise on this. Some of their material they put out just talked about NI in general, not employer vs employee NI.

    The problem is now they doubly boxed themselves in, still trying to claim no we CAN'T break any promises, and we HAVEN'T broken any to date and we won't in the future. So now they are going to find other taxes to rise that will have worse effects.

    At least Osborne, just came out and said sorry hard times, VAT is going up.
    Replying to you edit - remember my argument for a long time was reverse Hunt’s NI cut by increasing income tax and use the WFA to offset the pain for poorest pensioners.
    Considering Hunt's NI change was part of a package that raised taxes, how would you fund the reversal given that would be a net tax cut?

    Or are you disingenuously isolating one part of the package while discarding the rest of it?
    My viewpoint is Hunt didn’t have the leeway to cut employee NI - I.e. he didn’t raise taxes enough in 2023/4
    Was his package of changes a net tax rise, or a net tax cut?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,855
    Andy Burnham appears to be clambering cautiously aboard the 'asylum hotels are bad' bandwagon - though without any suggestions about how to reduce the need for them, just a demand for more consultation...
    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/scandalous-andy-burnham-speaks-out-32321798?int_source=nba
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,364
    What a bunch of [redacted].

    Diogo Jota Foundation has no connection to family or Liverpool FC

    Exclusive: Website soliciting donations claims it has raised almost £50,000 but club know nothing about it


    A foundation set up in memory of Diogo Jota is facing questions after it emerged it had no connection to his family or Liverpool.

    The Diogo Jota Foundation has been soliciting donations via a website, diogojotafoundation.org – created three days after the striker’s tragic death – which says it has raised $64,250 (£47,715).

    The donation page, which takes users through to an off-site platform, appears to only allow donations in the form of cryptocurrency. The website adds that it “accepts USDT, ETH and other crypto through NOWPayments securely”.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2025/08/21/diogo-jota-foundation-no-connection-to-family-or-liverpool/
  • eekeek Posts: 31,007
    edited August 21

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    You can't come in promising change and then deliver the same shoddy, half baked governing as the last lot. If anything they've made things worse, inflation is back up, the economy is slowing down, business investment has cratered, unemployment is up and the border crisis is worse than what the Tories left behind.

    There aren't any measures where Labour are doing anything appreciably better than the previous government, therefore they are now just as unpopular. I also think people really, really don't like Starmer. Very few defenders left (mostly on here).
    The change they implemented was to increase the worst possible tax to increase, one they said they wouldn't.

    Queue people defending it by pretending its only the other half of NI they said they wouldn't increase.

    There have been no serious reforms implemented at all. No ideas.
    SKS never promised to not increase Employer NI which is why they increased it.

    Now it was a very stupid idea especially when attached to a minimum wage increase that was beyond what many companies could afford but given how much Reeves’s tried to avoid breaking the promise she had little choice.
    The IFS have repeated called them out on this as having broken their promises. Some of their material they put out just talked about NI in general, not employer vs employee NI.
    That’s never going to get traction because the promise was not to increase taxes voters pay.
    Yes, they hoped that voters wouldn't notice 4 years of high inflation as companies clawed back their margins but apparently not, given these ratings.
    You will note that I’m very consistent in my “ I wouldn’t be doing it that way” viewpoint

    And we are witnessing another example this week because I haven’t a clue what the purpose of the current housing story is beyond scaring people into not doing nothing in case they end up in an impossible situation come November’s budget
    I believe they are trying the same trick as last time, by using anchoring. Leak all this stuff that makes it sound like daily punishment beatings, the media jump all over it with the most doomster predictions, then when it turns out we only get beaten on weekends, the government spin is things aren't that bad, it could have been worse, but because of how good Rachel from Accounts is that saved us from the worst of it.
    It would be understandable if the plan was vaguely sane, but capital gains tax on first homes, no-one is going to downsize because that will crystallize a massive tax bill they don’t want to see let alone pay

    The only solution is remove stamp duty and merge it into a new council tax scheme - implemented in a way that makes revaluations simple - no need to scare people there just talk about simplification and abolishing stamp duty so it’s easier to move
  • LeonLeon Posts: 64,331
    I see @MaxPB was telling you all the obvious truth on the prior thread, yet he was predictably ignored or criticised by the PB Centrist Dads

    If we want racism and associated unhappiness, in the UK, to go back to the pleasantly low levels of the Noughties - WHICH WE ALL DO - then we need to

    1. Bring net migration down to under 100,000. It will hurt, but we now have no choice if we want a stable, prosperous country

    2. End asylum as we know it. Stop the boats

    3. Start huge deportations, and make sure the Boriswave doesn't get Leave to Remain, so they go home

    That's it. If we do that we will return to the relative harmony of Yore. Why? Because British people are not racist. They are some of the most tolerant and accepting people on the planet, it is what we do - Live and Let Live. Don't bother me I won't bother you. We've been like this, in the UK, since Elizabeth the First refused to "make a window into men's souls"

    To bring back the tolerant Britain we all knew and loved, we need to be really tough on migration and integration. They are doing exactly this in Denmark, and it is working. We can do it too
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,109
    edited August 21

    Request for PB Beta Testers

    Some of you might have noticed that I've not been posting on PB as often as I used to in the past. There's a reason for that. I've been working on a new project in my spare time called Halbut. It's a play on Hal, But not evil. I've been using many of these voice dictation apps that are out there, and the question I had or I asked myself was: "Was it possible to do something that was significantly more AI-enhanced?" This is what Halbut does.

    There are three modes:

    Transcription:

    You hold down an a hotkey (I like Caps Lock) and it listens and then it transcribes. It's very quick, very effective (of course it uses a fast inference provider on the back-end). In addition, you can set it to clean up the text in terms not just of adding punctuation (which is automatic), but also things like bullet points, paragraphs, removing duplication etc.

    Command Mode:

    You press another hotkey (say Shift-Caps lock), and you give it a command like "Write a paragraph about the dangers of phosphates" for example, and it fills that in. Or "Give me three reasons why you should be suspicious of x y z". In other words, if the ability to insert a sensible, well-written stuff into your emails or letters (and I hope not PB posts).

    Question Model:

    Another hotekey (Ctrl-Caps Lock in my case) and you just ask it a quick question like "You know, what's the best library to do this?" or "Who's the president of Ethiopia?" or whatever, and it just speaks it back to you. The idea is that by enabling you to ask quick questions without taking your hands off the keyboard, it makes you more productive.

    Anyway, I'll be launching this firstly for Windows, and then hopefully Mac and Linux. I'm looking for Windows beta testers for now. It is completely free (for now). It'll probably be free for transcription (with limits), and $5/month for all the features.

    Send me an email if you want to beta test, and you will probably get access next week. (Once I get the hang of packaging up Windows applications for distribution.)
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,966

    Considering SKS's mantra of "change" its amusing to compare the first 12 months of Tony Blair versus Sir Keir Starmer, who represented "change" better? BTW not suggesting all these changes are good (indeed some I vehemently oppose as bad) but they're changes.

    Blair:
    Bank of England independence
    Devolution
    Northern Ireland peace process
    House of Lords reform
    Human Rights Act
    Minimum wage legislation
    Increased funding for schools, introduction of literacy and numeracy hours in primary schools.
    New Deal for the unemployed
    Student finance reform
    Referendum on London government
    Introduction of Anti-Social Behaviour Orders (ASBOs)
    Extra NHS funding and a pledge to reduce waiting lists; introduced the principle of targets and performance management.

    Sir Keir Starmer
    Tax rise on NI
    Creation of Great British Energy
    Strategic Defence Review
    Cut winter fuel allowance then largely reversed the cut
    Proposed then reversed welfare reform

    Where are the changes?

    By that we mean hired a bloke who WFH 500 miles away from the office most of the time and that's about it.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,450
    Roger said:

    nico67 said:

    All my Labour friends hate Starmer . Equally they absolutely loathe Farage and Reform .

    Labour have managed to alienate everyone . I’m surprised they’re even polling above the Tories in most polls.

    My feelings. I loathe what Starmer did to those who understood Israel's genocidal tendancies before he did. He kicked them out of the Party on the most spurious grounds and brought in some hand picked 'Friends of Israel'.

    Similar in many ways to Boris and his Brexiteers. By the time the penny dropped they'd both alienated the most principled members of their respective parties.

    The only glint of light for Starmer is that his two opponents are worse. Whether that'ill save him is too early to say. Perhaps a sweetener like an offer to 'Rejoin' might do it.?

    With a very tight clothes peg it would just about do it for me.
    'The only glint of light for Starmer is that his two opponents are worse'

    Not in public opinion

    According to Yougov Starmer is only second to Reeves as unpopular

    Nigel Farage (net -29)

    Ed Davey (net -3)

    Jeremy Corbyn (net -35)

    Keir Starmer (net -44)

    Kemi Badenoch (net -31)

    Angela Rayner (net -32)

    Rachel Reeves (net -47)

    David Lammy (net -30)

    Mel Stride (net -13)

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,966
    eek said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    You can't come in promising change and then deliver the same shoddy, half baked governing as the last lot. If anything they've made things worse, inflation is back up, the economy is slowing down, business investment has cratered, unemployment is up and the border crisis is worse than what the Tories left behind.

    There aren't any measures where Labour are doing anything appreciably better than the previous government, therefore they are now just as unpopular. I also think people really, really don't like Starmer. Very few defenders left (mostly on here).
    The change they implemented was to increase the worst possible tax to increase, one they said they wouldn't.

    Queue people defending it by pretending its only the other half of NI they said they wouldn't increase.

    There have been no serious reforms implemented at all. No ideas.
    SKS never promised to not increase Employer NI which is why they increased it.

    Now it was a very stupid idea especially when attached to a minimum wage increase that was beyond what many companies could afford but given how much Reeves’s tried to avoid breaking the promise she had little choice.
    The IFS have repeated called them out on this as having broken their promises. Some of their material they put out just talked about NI in general, not employer vs employee NI.
    That’s never going to get traction because the promise was not to increase taxes voters pay.
    Yes, they hoped that voters wouldn't notice 4 years of high inflation as companies clawed back their margins but apparently not, given these ratings.
    You will note that I’m very consistent in my “ I wouldn’t be doing it that way” viewpoint

    And we are witnessing another example this week because I haven’t a clue what the purpose of the current housing story is beyond scaring people into not doing nothing in case they end up in an impossible situation come November’s budget
    I believe they are trying the same trick as last time, by using anchoring. Leak all this stuff that makes it sound like daily punishment beatings, the media jump all over it with the most doomster predictions, then when it turns out we only get beaten on weekends, the government spin is things aren't that bad, it could have been worse, but because of how good Rachel from Accounts is that saved us from the worst of it.
    It would be understandable if the plan was vaguely sane, but capital gains tax on first homes, no-one is going to downsize because that will crystallize a massive tax bill they don’t want to see let alone pay
    You know that, I know that....but look at the muppets we are dealing with. The punishment beating doomster stuff they leaked last year buggered the confidence in the economy, but looks like they are repeating it.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,109
    I do find it funny that some people who complain the most about immigration are the people who seem most keen to move to other countries.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 64,331
    rcs1000 said:

    I do find it funny that some people who complain the most about immigration are the people who seem most keen to move to other countries.

    Have you ever asked yourself WHY they want to move to other countries?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,447

    dixiedean said:

    People seem to be disregarding the option of ditching Starmer and pretending it's an entirely new government trick.
    I know it's more difficult for Labour, but the Tories managed it four times.

    Canada waves.

    The only problem is who do Labour have waiting in the wings. Its the same problem the Tories have.
    The interesting thing about Canada is that the government has stretched its lead from 2.5 pp at the election to c.7 now less than four months later.
    It seems the issue really was Trudeau.
    Trump helped of course.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,684
    edited August 21
    Cookie said:

    Andy Burnham appears to be clambering cautiously aboard the 'asylum hotels are bad' bandwagon - though without any suggestions about how to reduce the need for them, just a demand for more consultation...
    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/scandalous-andy-burnham-speaks-out-32321798?int_source=nba

    Or 'Andy Burnham appears to be clambering cautiously on the role of champion of northern redwallers bandwagon unlike posh North London Sir Keir'
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,775
    sarissa said:

    FPT

    Shocked.

    Revealed: Israeli military’s own data indicates civilian death rate of 83% in Gaza war

    Figures from classified IDF database listed 8,900 named fighters as dead or probably dead in May, as overall death toll reached 53,000


    Figures from a classified Israeli military intelligence database indicate five out of six Palestinians killed by Israeli forces in Gaza have been civilians, an extreme rate of slaughter rarely matched in recent decades of warfare.

    As of May, 19 months into the war, Israeli intelligence officials listed 8,900 named fighters from Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad as dead or “probably dead”, a joint investigation by the Guardian, the Israeli-Palestinian publication +972 Magazine and the Hebrew-language outlet Local Call has found.

    At that time 53,000 Palestinians had been killed by Israeli attacks, according to health authorities in Gaza, a toll that included combatants and civilians. Fighters named in the Israeli military intelligence database accounted for just 17% of the total, which indicates that 83% of the dead were civilians.

    That apparent ratio of civilians to combatants among the dead is extremely high for modern warfare, even compared with conflicts notorious for indiscriminate killing, including the Syrian and Sudanese civil wars.

    “That proportion of civilians among those killed would be unusually high, particularly as it has been going on for such a long time,” said Therése Pettersson from the Uppsala Conflict Data Program, which tracks civilian casualties worldwide. “If you single out a particular city or battle in another conflict, you could find similar rates, but very rarely overall.”

    In global conflicts tracked by UCDP since 1989, civilians made up a greater proportion of the dead only in Srebenica – although not the Bosnian war overall – in the Rwandan genocide, and during the Russian siege of Mariupol in 2022, Pettersson said.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2025/aug/21/revealed-israeli-militarys-own-data-indicates-civilian-death-rate-of-83-in-gaza-war

    I wouldn't expect the IDF to be able to name every single Hamas fighter they had killed, so you can't conclude that everyone killed who isn't named is a civilian.
    Well said. What a stupid report.

    Plus the number of civilians killed would be zero if Hamas surrenders unconditionally and releases the hostages.
    You mean like the zero casualties and lack of violent oppresion in the West Bank?
    The West Bank is the control experiment for Israel's attitude to Palestinans without Hamas & Oct 7th.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,867
    Leon said:

    I see @MaxPB was telling you all the obvious truth on the prior thread, yet he was predictably ignored or criticised by the PB Centrist Dads

    If we want racism and associated unhappiness, in the UK, to go back to the pleasantly low levels of the Noughties - WHICH WE ALL DO - then we need to

    1. Bring net migration down to under 100,000. It will hurt, but we now have no choice if we want a stable, prosperous country

    2. End asylum as we know it. Stop the boats

    3. Start huge deportations, and make sure the Boriswave doesn't get Leave to Remain, so they go home

    That's it. If we do that we will return to the relative harmony of Yore. Why? Because British people are not racist. They are some of the most tolerant and accepting people on the planet, it is what we do - Live and Let Live. Don't bother me I won't bother you. We've been like this, in the UK, since Elizabeth the First refused to "make a window into men's souls"

    To bring back the tolerant Britain we all knew and loved, we need to be really tough on migration and integration. They are doing exactly this in Denmark, and it is working. We can do it too

    If you dispense with the Reform nasty tones then I broadly agree. Why, incidentally, have you become a rabble rouser?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,684
    rcs1000 said:

    I do find it funny that some people who complain the most about immigration are the people who seem most keen to move to other countries.

    Albeit like Dubai and Singapore, low tax and welfare and zero tolerance for crime
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,966
    eek said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    You can't come in promising change and then deliver the same shoddy, half baked governing as the last lot. If anything they've made things worse, inflation is back up, the economy is slowing down, business investment has cratered, unemployment is up and the border crisis is worse than what the Tories left behind.

    There aren't any measures where Labour are doing anything appreciably better than the previous government, therefore they are now just as unpopular. I also think people really, really don't like Starmer. Very few defenders left (mostly on here).
    The change they implemented was to increase the worst possible tax to increase, one they said they wouldn't.

    Queue people defending it by pretending its only the other half of NI they said they wouldn't increase.

    There have been no serious reforms implemented at all. No ideas.
    SKS never promised to not increase Employer NI which is why they increased it.

    Now it was a very stupid idea especially when attached to a minimum wage increase that was beyond what many companies could afford but given how much Reeves’s tried to avoid breaking the promise she had little choice.
    The IFS have repeated called them out on this as having broken their promises. Some of their material they put out just talked about NI in general, not employer vs employee NI.
    That’s never going to get traction because the promise was not to increase taxes voters pay.
    Yes, they hoped that voters wouldn't notice 4 years of high inflation as companies clawed back their margins but apparently not, given these ratings.
    You will note that I’m very consistent in my “ I wouldn’t be doing it that way” viewpoint

    And we are witnessing another example this week because I haven’t a clue what the purpose of the current housing story is beyond scaring people into not doing nothing in case they end up in an impossible situation come November’s budget
    I believe they are trying the same trick as last time, by using anchoring. Leak all this stuff that makes it sound like daily punishment beatings, the media jump all over it with the most doomster predictions, then when it turns out we only get beaten on weekends, the government spin is things aren't that bad, it could have been worse, but because of how good Rachel from Accounts is that saved us from the worst of it.
    It would be understandable if the plan was vaguely sane, but capital gains tax on first homes, no-one is going to downsize because that will crystallize a massive tax bill they don’t want to see let alone pay

    The only solution is remove stamp duty and merge it into a new council tax scheme - implemented in a way that makes revaluations simple - no need to scare people there just talk about simplification and abolishing stamp duty so it’s easier to move
    Removing stamp duty done right could be a really sensible policy, I always thought it is a really stupid tax for a number of reasons. I fear both the need and instincts of the current government will be they will find a way to make it a massive tax hike with a load of negative consequences.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 64,331
    rcs1000 said:

    Request for PB Beta Testers

    Some of you might have noticed that I've not been posting on PB as often as I used to in the past. There's a reason for that. I've been working on a new project in my spare time called Halbut. It's a play on Hal, But not evil. I've been using many of these voice dictation apps that are out there, and the question I had or I asked myself was: "Was it possible to do something that was significantly more AI-enhanced?" This is what Halbut does.

    There are three modes:

    Transcription:

    You hold down an a hotkey (I like Caps Lock) and it listens and then it transcribes. It's very quick, very effective (of course it uses a fast inference provider on the back-end). In addition, you can set it to clean up the text in terms not just of adding punctuation (which is automatic), but also things like bullet points, paragraphs, removing duplication etc.

    Command Mode:

    You press another hotkey (say Shift-Caps lock), and you give it a command like "Write a paragraph about the dangers of phosphates" for example, and it fills that in. Or "Give me three reasons why you should be suspicious of x y z". In other words, if the ability to insert a sensible, well-written stuff into your emails or letters (and I hope not PB posts).

    Question Model:

    Another hotekey (Ctrl-Caps Lock in my case) and you just ask it a quick question like "You know, what's the best library to do this?" or "Who's the president of Ethiopia?" or whatever, and it just speaks it back to you. The idea is that by enabling you to ask quick questions without taking your hands off the keyboard, it makes you more productive.

    Anyway, I'll be launching this firstly for Windows, and then hopefully Mac and Linux. I'm looking for Windows beta testers for now. It is completely free (for now). It'll probably be free for transcription (with limits), and $5/month for all the features.

    Send me an email if you want to beta test, and you will probably get access next week. (Once I get the hang of packaging up Windows applications for distribution.)
    I'll happily give it a go. I don't quite understand the USP but willing to have a bash

    And if I like it I might be able to give you free publicity in the worldwide sex toy flint knapping industry
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,796
    dixiedean said:

    People seem to be disregarding the option of ditching Starmer and pretending it's an entirely new government trick.
    I know it's more difficult for Labour, but the Tories managed it four times.

    A new leader would have to be capable in the ways that Starmer isn't. Do you have anyone in mind?

    If anyone in the Cabinet was performing notably well I would have thought they would be firmly established as the heir apparent by now. But it's possible that they are all worse than Starmer.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,867
    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    Andy Burnham appears to be clambering cautiously aboard the 'asylum hotels are bad' bandwagon - though without any suggestions about how to reduce the need for them, just a demand for more consultation...
    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/scandalous-andy-burnham-speaks-out-32321798?int_source=nba

    Or 'Andy Burnham appears to be clambering cautiously on the role of champion of northern redwallers bandwagon unlike posh North London Sir Keir'
    An opportunist politician that messes up his opportunities.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,684

    Considering SKS's mantra of "change" its amusing to compare the first 12 months of Tony Blair versus Sir Keir Starmer, who represented "change" better? BTW not suggesting all these changes are good (indeed some I vehemently oppose as bad) but they're changes.

    Blair:
    Bank of England independence
    Devolution
    Northern Ireland peace process
    House of Lords reform
    Human Rights Act
    Minimum wage legislation
    Increased funding for schools, introduction of literacy and numeracy hours in primary schools.
    New Deal for the unemployed
    Student finance reform
    Referendum on London government
    Introduction of Anti-Social Behaviour Orders (ASBOs)
    Extra NHS funding and a pledge to reduce waiting lists; introduced the principle of targets and performance management.

    Sir Keir Starmer
    Tax rise on NI
    Creation of Great British Energy
    Strategic Defence Review
    Cut winter fuel allowance then largely reversed the cut
    Proposed then reversed welfare reform

    Where are the changes?

    Blair never hammered farmers with a family farms tax
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,109
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I do find it funny that some people who complain the most about immigration are the people who seem most keen to move to other countries.

    Have you ever asked yourself WHY they want to move to other countries?
    Because they want freedoms they wish to deny to others?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 64,331
    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    I see @MaxPB was telling you all the obvious truth on the prior thread, yet he was predictably ignored or criticised by the PB Centrist Dads

    If we want racism and associated unhappiness, in the UK, to go back to the pleasantly low levels of the Noughties - WHICH WE ALL DO - then we need to

    1. Bring net migration down to under 100,000. It will hurt, but we now have no choice if we want a stable, prosperous country

    2. End asylum as we know it. Stop the boats

    3. Start huge deportations, and make sure the Boriswave doesn't get Leave to Remain, so they go home

    That's it. If we do that we will return to the relative harmony of Yore. Why? Because British people are not racist. They are some of the most tolerant and accepting people on the planet, it is what we do - Live and Let Live. Don't bother me I won't bother you. We've been like this, in the UK, since Elizabeth the First refused to "make a window into men's souls"

    To bring back the tolerant Britain we all knew and loved, we need to be really tough on migration and integration. They are doing exactly this in Denmark, and it is working. We can do it too

    If you dispense with the Reform nasty tones then I broadly agree. Why, incidentally, have you become a rabble rouser?
    lol

    Rabble rouser?! I post on PB, that's it. Are you calling PBers a rabble? And how do I rouse you?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,989
    edited August 21
    HYUFD said:

    Considering SKS's mantra of "change" its amusing to compare the first 12 months of Tony Blair versus Sir Keir Starmer, who represented "change" better? BTW not suggesting all these changes are good (indeed some I vehemently oppose as bad) but they're changes.

    Blair:
    Bank of England independence
    Devolution
    Northern Ireland peace process
    House of Lords reform
    Human Rights Act
    Minimum wage legislation
    Increased funding for schools, introduction of literacy and numeracy hours in primary schools.
    New Deal for the unemployed
    Student finance reform
    Referendum on London government
    Introduction of Anti-Social Behaviour Orders (ASBOs)
    Extra NHS funding and a pledge to reduce waiting lists; introduced the principle of targets and performance management.

    Sir Keir Starmer
    Tax rise on NI
    Creation of Great British Energy
    Strategic Defence Review
    Cut winter fuel allowance then largely reversed the cut
    Proposed then reversed welfare reform

    Where are the changes?

    Blair never hammered farmers with a family farms tax
    Nor has anyone.

    There has never been a Family Farms Tax. As opposed to Tories lying about the reduction of the IHT tax relief on [edit] estates [the probate kind] of owners of agricultural land.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,684
    Andy_JS said:

    "Reform UK launches Operation Stop Jenrick
    By Rob Lownie"

    https://unherd.com/newsroom/reform-uk-launches-operation-stop-jenrick

    Which is pointless, Jenrick's future depends on Farage not him.

    If Farage wins the next GE Jenrick will be irrelevant, if Farage loses the next GE then Jenrick would be ideally placed to take over as Tory leader to reunite the right
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,447
    Omnium said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    Andy Burnham appears to be clambering cautiously aboard the 'asylum hotels are bad' bandwagon - though without any suggestions about how to reduce the need for them, just a demand for more consultation...
    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/scandalous-andy-burnham-speaks-out-32321798?int_source=nba

    Or 'Andy Burnham appears to be clambering cautiously on the role of champion of northern redwallers bandwagon unlike posh North London Sir Keir'
    An opportunist politician that messes up his opportunities.
    Apart from mayor of Greater Manchester that is.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,684

    Roger said:

    nico67 said:

    All my Labour friends hate Starmer . Equally they absolutely loathe Farage and Reform .

    Labour have managed to alienate everyone . I’m surprised they’re even polling above the Tories in most polls.

    My feelings. I loathe what Starmer did to those who understood Israel's genocidal tendancies before he did. He kicked them out of the Party on the most spurious grounds and brought in some hand picked 'Friends of Israel'.

    Similar in many ways to Boris and his Brexiteers. By the time the penny dropped they'd both alienated the most principled members of their respective parties.

    The only glint of light for Starmer is that his two opponents are worse. Whether that'ill save him is too early to say. Perhaps a sweetener like an offer to 'Rejoin' might do it.?

    With a very tight clothes peg it would just about do it for me.
    'The only glint of light for Starmer is that his two opponents are worse'

    Not in public opinion

    According to Yougov Starmer is only second to Reeves as unpopular

    Nigel Farage (net -29)

    Ed Davey (net -3)

    Jeremy Corbyn (net -35)

    Keir Starmer (net -44)

    Kemi Badenoch (net -31)

    Angela Rayner (net -32)

    Rachel Reeves (net -47)

    David Lammy (net -30)

    Mel Stride (net -13)

    Good numbers for Stride, Lammy and Davey there
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,867
    Leon said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    I see @MaxPB was telling you all the obvious truth on the prior thread, yet he was predictably ignored or criticised by the PB Centrist Dads

    If we want racism and associated unhappiness, in the UK, to go back to the pleasantly low levels of the Noughties - WHICH WE ALL DO - then we need to

    1. Bring net migration down to under 100,000. It will hurt, but we now have no choice if we want a stable, prosperous country

    2. End asylum as we know it. Stop the boats

    3. Start huge deportations, and make sure the Boriswave doesn't get Leave to Remain, so they go home

    That's it. If we do that we will return to the relative harmony of Yore. Why? Because British people are not racist. They are some of the most tolerant and accepting people on the planet, it is what we do - Live and Let Live. Don't bother me I won't bother you. We've been like this, in the UK, since Elizabeth the First refused to "make a window into men's souls"

    To bring back the tolerant Britain we all knew and loved, we need to be really tough on migration and integration. They are doing exactly this in Denmark, and it is working. We can do it too

    If you dispense with the Reform nasty tones then I broadly agree. Why, incidentally, have you become a rabble rouser?
    lol

    Rabble rouser?! I post on PB, that's it. Are you calling PBers a rabble? And how do I rouse you?
    You seem keen to have things break down. Always the first to the worst conclusion.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,684
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    You would have to go back to maybe Heath's 1970-1974 government to find a party as unpopular as Starmer's government is in only their first term of government, even Thatcher's pre Falklands or the 1974-1979 Labour government was not this unpopular at this stage.

    However Starmer has the advantage that his main opponent is likely to be Farage and there are plenty of LD and Green voters who would vote Labour in Labour marginals to keep Reform from power even if they are not great fans of this Labour government. Of course if the Tories still were the main opposition and had a charismatic and centrist leader they would be heading for a likely Tory landslide.

    Indeed Starmer likely also wants a Tory poll recovery, which would probably come mainly at Reform's expense, whether under Kemi or a new Tory leader like Stride, Cleverly or Jenrick

    Labour has largely maxed out the Lib Dem and Green tactical vote in Red Wall seats. What there is, in many such seats, is a sizeable Conservative vote, which is more likely to vote Reform than Labour, tactically.
    If Tories were runners up in a Labour held seat last year why would they not still vote Tory next time? If Labour win redwall seats it will be from direct Labour to Reform switchers, not Tory tactical votes.

    If Labour hold enough marginal seats to stay in power though, even with no majority, it will be tactical votes for them that will likely be key
    25% of 2024 Tories have now switched to Reform.
    75% haven't and if they stay Tory and LD and Green voters massively tactically vote Labour in Labour held marginals, Farage has a problem
  • eekeek Posts: 31,007

    eek said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    You can't come in promising change and then deliver the same shoddy, half baked governing as the last lot. If anything they've made things worse, inflation is back up, the economy is slowing down, business investment has cratered, unemployment is up and the border crisis is worse than what the Tories left behind.

    There aren't any measures where Labour are doing anything appreciably better than the previous government, therefore they are now just as unpopular. I also think people really, really don't like Starmer. Very few defenders left (mostly on here).
    The change they implemented was to increase the worst possible tax to increase, one they said they wouldn't.

    Queue people defending it by pretending its only the other half of NI they said they wouldn't increase.

    There have been no serious reforms implemented at all. No ideas.
    SKS never promised to not increase Employer NI which is why they increased it.

    Now it was a very stupid idea especially when attached to a minimum wage increase that was beyond what many companies could afford but given how much Reeves’s tried to avoid breaking the promise she had little choice.
    The IFS have repeated called them out on this as having broken their promises. Some of their material they put out just talked about NI in general, not employer vs employee NI.
    That’s never going to get traction because the promise was not to increase taxes voters pay.
    Yes, they hoped that voters wouldn't notice 4 years of high inflation as companies clawed back their margins but apparently not, given these ratings.
    You will note that I’m very consistent in my “ I wouldn’t be doing it that way” viewpoint

    And we are witnessing another example this week because I haven’t a clue what the purpose of the current housing story is beyond scaring people into not doing nothing in case they end up in an impossible situation come November’s budget
    I believe they are trying the same trick as last time, by using anchoring. Leak all this stuff that makes it sound like daily punishment beatings, the media jump all over it with the most doomster predictions, then when it turns out we only get beaten on weekends, the government spin is things aren't that bad, it could have been worse, but because of how good Rachel from Accounts is that saved us from the worst of it.
    It would be understandable if the plan was vaguely sane, but capital gains tax on first homes, no-one is going to downsize because that will crystallize a massive tax bill they don’t want to see let alone pay

    The only solution is remove stamp duty and merge it into a new council tax scheme - implemented in a way that makes revaluations simple - no need to scare people there just talk about simplification and abolishing stamp duty so it’s easier to move
    Removing stamp duty done right could be a really sensible policy, I always thought it is a really stupid tax for a number of reasons. I fear both the need and instincts of the current government will be they will find a way to make it a massive tax hike with a load of negative consequences.
    Except the current kite flying looks to be saying we are keeping stamp duty as the other option (CGT is worse)
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,550
    rcs1000 said:

    I do find it funny that some people who complain the most about immigration are the people who seem most keen to move to other countries.

    I haven't seen anyone speak against skilled legal immigration, only illegal immigration and mass unskilled immigration. Indeed, I'm very comfortable for people with earnings above a £55-60k threshold to come here to work.

    One hopes no one on PB is planning to illegally migrate to another country...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,966
    DSIT confirmed to Guido in response to an FoI request that “the department uses Zscaler, which provides a suite of secure access services including VPN functionality.” That’s part of a £2.17 million contract.

    https://order-order.com/2025/08/21/peter-kyles-staff-use-vpn-he-claimed-put-children-at-risk/

    Why is Peter Kyle putting NordVPN on his expenses? His excuse was he needed a VPN to keep him secure for work.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,684
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I do find it funny that some people who complain the most about immigration are the people who seem most keen to move to other countries.

    I haven't seen anyone speak against skilled legal immigration, only illegal immigration and mass unskilled immigration. Indeed, I'm very comfortable for people with earnings above a £55-60k threshold to come here to work.

    One hopes no one on PB is planning to illegally migrate to another country...
    I expect many UK born and trained doctors aren't, certainly not unless they are offered the jobs first
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,966
    edited August 21
    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    MaxPB said:

    I have said this before, but I am surprised just how unpopular Labour are.

    You can't come in promising change and then deliver the same shoddy, half baked governing as the last lot. If anything they've made things worse, inflation is back up, the economy is slowing down, business investment has cratered, unemployment is up and the border crisis is worse than what the Tories left behind.

    There aren't any measures where Labour are doing anything appreciably better than the previous government, therefore they are now just as unpopular. I also think people really, really don't like Starmer. Very few defenders left (mostly on here).
    The change they implemented was to increase the worst possible tax to increase, one they said they wouldn't.

    Queue people defending it by pretending its only the other half of NI they said they wouldn't increase.

    There have been no serious reforms implemented at all. No ideas.
    SKS never promised to not increase Employer NI which is why they increased it.

    Now it was a very stupid idea especially when attached to a minimum wage increase that was beyond what many companies could afford but given how much Reeves’s tried to avoid breaking the promise she had little choice.
    The IFS have repeated called them out on this as having broken their promises. Some of their material they put out just talked about NI in general, not employer vs employee NI.
    That’s never going to get traction because the promise was not to increase taxes voters pay.
    Yes, they hoped that voters wouldn't notice 4 years of high inflation as companies clawed back their margins but apparently not, given these ratings.
    You will note that I’m very consistent in my “ I wouldn’t be doing it that way” viewpoint

    And we are witnessing another example this week because I haven’t a clue what the purpose of the current housing story is beyond scaring people into not doing nothing in case they end up in an impossible situation come November’s budget
    I believe they are trying the same trick as last time, by using anchoring. Leak all this stuff that makes it sound like daily punishment beatings, the media jump all over it with the most doomster predictions, then when it turns out we only get beaten on weekends, the government spin is things aren't that bad, it could have been worse, but because of how good Rachel from Accounts is that saved us from the worst of it.
    It would be understandable if the plan was vaguely sane, but capital gains tax on first homes, no-one is going to downsize because that will crystallize a massive tax bill they don’t want to see let alone pay

    The only solution is remove stamp duty and merge it into a new council tax scheme - implemented in a way that makes revaluations simple - no need to scare people there just talk about simplification and abolishing stamp duty so it’s easier to move
    Removing stamp duty done right could be a really sensible policy, I always thought it is a really stupid tax for a number of reasons. I fear both the need and instincts of the current government will be they will find a way to make it a massive tax hike with a load of negative consequences.
    Except the current kite flying looks to be saying we are keeping stamp duty as the other option (CGT is worse)
    Yes I know, that is I am saying about I fear they could do the worst of both options.

    I however not believing too much of the media headlines for the moment in regards to these leaks of what the treasury is considering, as I said down thread I feel this is all anchoring. Also, messing with property taxes will be a multi-year complex process, so far the government have a habit of backing away from anything complex as they haven't thought very hard about actually governing. Its all reactive.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,109
    As an aside, I actually do agree with a lot of what @Leon is saying. But I feel compelled to disagree with him for some reason.
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