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Thistle do nicely, a 16% return in 9 months? – politicalbetting.com

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  • TazTaz Posts: 20,369
  • DoctorGDoctorG Posts: 137

    DavidL said:

    On topic the further splintering of the Unionist vote by the growth of Reform makes it almost inevitable that the SNP will win the most seats. It is doubtful that their rival, Alba, will trouble the scorers or even stand in most places. In light of this the 1/6 for SNP to have most seats does indeed seem quite generous although I agree with @rcs1000 that 12/1 for Reform is pretty generous too. The temptation to put a small bet on both is high.

    Everyone's vote is split - Swinney is trying to pin together an uneasy coalition inside the party, never mind hold all the people who have already gone.

    Reform are very confident of taking a slug of votes off the SNP on a change agenda.

    A lot of SNP last time voters seriously pissed off with the state of things and not listening to the "its the fault of the English" line any more.

    It will be fun!
    Good luck for the campaign
  • DoctorGDoctorG Posts: 137
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DM_Andy said:

    kinabalu said:

    boulay said:

    kinabalu said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @SkyNews

    BREAKING: France's president Emmanuel Macron and Finnish president Alexander Stubb are the latest European leaders to say they will attend Zelenskyy and Trump's meeting

    Is that a good thing? Is this a Z/T meeting or a meeting at which Z/T are among the participants?
    Nobody, including and perhaps least of all, the attendees has any fucking clue. It's make-it-up-as-go-along school of statecraft.

    It's probably a combination of FOMO from the European leaders, nobody wants to be the first lift sanctions on Russia but also they definitely don't want to be the last, and DJT enjoying summoning them across the Atlantic so he can be rude/incomprehensible to them.
    I think they should all send body doubles.
    But really shit ones, like the rubbish waxworks of famous people in those Madame Tussaud’s rip-offs.

    Maybe they could send Mark Kermode for Keir Starmer.

    That's quite a good one. Definitely close enough to fool Trump, I think.
    They could send David Lammy in place of Keir and it would fool Trump.

    They could send a fucking scatter cushion instead of David Lammy, to anywhere on earth, and no one would notice the intellectual difference
    David Lammy, the Harvard-educated lawyer who got Britain a better trade deal?
    No, David Lammy who thinks Henry VII came AFTER Henry VIII
    The tweets Lammy wrote about Trump circa 2018/19 are comedy gold
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,951
    "Rupert Lowe MP
    @RupertLowe10

    Uncontrolled mass immigration has entirely undermined our high-trust society."

    https://x.com/RupertLowe10/status/1957074571762213091
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,506
    DoctorG said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DM_Andy said:

    kinabalu said:

    boulay said:

    kinabalu said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @SkyNews

    BREAKING: France's president Emmanuel Macron and Finnish president Alexander Stubb are the latest European leaders to say they will attend Zelenskyy and Trump's meeting

    Is that a good thing? Is this a Z/T meeting or a meeting at which Z/T are among the participants?
    Nobody, including and perhaps least of all, the attendees has any fucking clue. It's make-it-up-as-go-along school of statecraft.

    It's probably a combination of FOMO from the European leaders, nobody wants to be the first lift sanctions on Russia but also they definitely don't want to be the last, and DJT enjoying summoning them across the Atlantic so he can be rude/incomprehensible to them.
    I think they should all send body doubles.
    But really shit ones, like the rubbish waxworks of famous people in those Madame Tussaud’s rip-offs.

    Maybe they could send Mark Kermode for Keir Starmer.

    That's quite a good one. Definitely close enough to fool Trump, I think.
    They could send David Lammy in place of Keir and it would fool Trump.

    They could send a fucking scatter cushion instead of David Lammy, to anywhere on earth, and no one would notice the intellectual difference
    David Lammy, the Harvard-educated lawyer who got Britain a better trade deal?
    No, David Lammy who thinks Henry VII came AFTER Henry VIII
    The tweets Lammy wrote about Trump circa 2018/19 are comedy gold
    He clearly never thought he’d be foreign secretary and needing to be diplomatic with people who disagree with him politically.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,611
    He's woken up MAD

    And angry...
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,753
    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:



    Sadly this is wishful thinking. The US has sold out Ukraine, the EU and UK aren't in any shape to resist Russia without US help and we won't be while we prioritise welfare above border defence.

    I tend to agree, but nothing is yet certain.
    Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of it, I wonder whether the Putin demand to acquire the rest of Donbas isn't calculated to be accepted by Trump and refused by Ukraine. It's not so obviously ridiculous to put Trump off, but it's hard to see Ukraine agreeing to give up territory that they've not already lost. But if they refuse, they might lose US support and then lose all four provinces.

    That said, the Ukrainian bar on surrendering territory is subject to referendum. If a hypothetical deal gave Ukraine other things that it wanted (e.g. the right to a NATO guarantee on their remaining territory, or even full NATO membership), it might pass, if Zelensky campaigned for it.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,509
    edited August 17
    Ofcom vs 4chan, what a world we live in. Ofcom are going to get absolutely destroyed in the US courts system if they pursue it and the UK government has no power to compel an entirely US entity to pay a UK fine. As I said a few days ago, the government will quickly find that the only way to actually do this is to introduce a Chinese style great firewall that blocks all but approved websites and ban VPNs under pain of 20 years in a labour camp.

    Once 4chan wins, how quickly will companies with minor UK presence just give it up entirely and shift everything to the US to protect themselves from these idiotic laws and regulators.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,861
    Try reading Wings over Scotland's blog for lots more on the truth in Scottish politics.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,611

    Try reading Wings over Scotland's blog for lots more on the truth in Scottish politics.

    https://x.com/graeme_from_IT/status/1957065710187790796
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,902
    edited August 17

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic the further splintering of the Unionist vote by the growth of Reform makes it almost inevitable that the SNP will win the most seats. It is doubtful that their rival, Alba, will trouble the scorers or even stand in most places. In light of this the 1/6 for SNP to have most seats does indeed seem quite generous although I agree with @rcs1000 that 12/1 for Reform is pretty generous too. The temptation to put a small bet on both is high.

    Everyone's vote is split - Swinney is trying to pin together an uneasy coalition inside the party, never mind hold all the people who have already gone.

    Reform are very confident of taking a slug of votes off the SNP on a change agenda.

    A lot of SNP last time voters seriously pissed off with the state of things and not listening to the "its the fault of the English" line any more.

    It will be fun!
    At one point I thought we would end up going back to a Labour/Lib Dem coalition as we had before the SNP hegemony but it now looks as if Labour will be too weak and Reform will deny that bloc any kind of majority. I cannot see how we get a viable, stable, rational government out of Holyrood. It might be even worse than what Yousaf and Swinney have served up.
    The sad thing in today's politics is that division rules. The yes crowd are fighting each other. Remain are fighting against the double threat of foreigners and windfarms. The Tories and Remain fighting each other for relevance. Scottish Labour fighting Westminster Labour.

    As you say, forming a coalition out of the kind of Holyrood we are likely to election would be an interesting exercise...
    Of course, Lab and (IIRC the prime movers for that particular wheeze) the LDs *designed* Holyrood* to have a permanent and immutable Slab-SLD coalition, lasting longer than the Lewisian Gneiss is old. How long ago it seems now.

    *Edit: specifically, by the use of a bent/modified (take your pick) d'Hondt system.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 32,345
    edited August 17
    Scott_xP said:

    Try reading Wings over Scotland's blog for lots more on the truth in Scottish politics.

    https://x.com/graeme_from_IT/status/1957065710187790796
    Wings accusing @Malcolmg of talking pish - brave man.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,321
    kinabalu said:

    boulay said:

    kinabalu said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @SkyNews

    BREAKING: France's president Emmanuel Macron and Finnish president Alexander Stubb are the latest European leaders to say they will attend Zelenskyy and Trump's meeting

    Is that a good thing? Is this a Z/T meeting or a meeting at which Z/T are among the participants?
    Nobody, including and perhaps least of all, the attendees has any fucking clue. It's make-it-up-as-go-along school of statecraft.

    It's probably a combination of FOMO from the European leaders, nobody wants to be the first lift sanctions on Russia but also they definitely don't want to be the last, and DJT enjoying summoning them across the Atlantic so he can be rude/incomprehensible to them.
    I think they should all send body doubles.
    But really shit ones, like the rubbish waxworks of famous people in those Madame Tussaud’s rip-offs.

    Maybe they could send Mark Kermode for Keir Starmer.

    That's quite a good one. Definitely close enough to fool Trump, I think.
    Not enough chins

    More Richard Keys I think
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 32,345
    Scott_xP said:

    @benrileysmith
    Zelensky and VDL press conference just now lays out Ukraine and Europe’s stance on elements of the Trump-Putin talks.

    1/ Strong pushback to the idea Russia gets all of Donetsk. Zelensky notes Putin hasn’t been able to take it in 12 years of fighting. So the current frontline should be starting point for talks.

    2/ Zelensky wants fighting to stop before proper talks begin. VDL agrees. Whether you call that a ceasefire or peace is irrelevant, argues VDL. (Trump said ignore the former and go straight to the latter yesterday.) Fundamentally talks can only happen when Russia stops attacking. Zelensky says it’s “impossible” to negotiate “under the pressure of weapons”.

    3/ That territorial talks must happen at a meeting of all three leaders - Putin, Zelensky and Trump. Zelensky says it’s “so important” an issue that is the correct format. If Putin refuses (as he’s expected to) then Zelensky argues Russia must be sanctioned. The EU is working up a 19th round of sanctions. This feels like a way of projecting to Trump that it is Russia, not Ukraine, blocking a peace deal.

    4/ That Ukraine post any deal needs ‘Nato Article 5-like’ security guarantees. Ie if Russia attacks again the West - and critically America - will have its back. EU leaders are now saying Trump opened the door to being involved in this. Not clear at all how or what he would commit. Key bit of Washington talks tomorrow. Note the loose language in ‘Article 5-like’. Not being proposed every Nato member is committed to see an attack on Ukraine as an attack on all. So something short of that.

    5/ That Ukraine continues on the “path” to becoming a European Union member. VDL says this in itself is a form of security guarantee. (Notable in that press conference how it was EU membership, rather than Nato membership, that was talked up.)

    6/ Zelensky warns against any “division” between Ukraine and its neighbour Moldova. Says that would undercut European unity.

    I agree with these stances. They sound sensible but flexible.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,611
    ‪Is there any member of DementiaDon's circus troupe whose reputation has been soiled more than this guy?

    @atrupar.com‬

    RADDATZ: The president went in to that meeting saying he wanted a ceasefire and there would be consequences if they didn't agree on a ceasefire in that meeting, and they didn't agree to a ceasefire. Where are the consequences?

    RUBIO: That's not the aim

    RADDATZ: The president said that was the aim

    @atrupar.com‬

    WELKER: Why not impose more sanctions on Russia and force them to agree to a ceasefire, instead of accepting that Putin won't agree to one?

    RUBIO: That's something people go around saying that I don't necessarily think is true. I don't think new sanctions are gonna force them to accept a ceasefire.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,795
    I can only presume Labour has internal polling or focus group responses that tell them that these attack lines on Reform are going to work, because they seem like transparent bullshit to me, but I’m obviously not the target voter they have in mind:

    “Rayner says Farage ‘failing young women’ with plan to scrap Online Safety Act”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/aug/17/rayner-says-farage-failing-young-women-plan-scrap-online-safety-act

    Either that, or they’re getting a bit panicky about the whole thing. I note in passing that 4Chan have stuck two fingers up to OFCOM after being threatened with a £20k fine plus daily penalties for being in contravention of the OSA.

    It’s also notable that they’re making no effort whatsoever to defend the act itself or engage with any of the criticism of it - it’s all ad hominem attacks on the critics.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,611
    @atrupar.com‬

    Rubio repeatedly won't name a single specific concession that Russia will have to give up as part of a peace deal, then pivots to talking about land that Ukraine will have to give up
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,563

    Scott_xP said:

    Try reading Wings over Scotland's blog for lots more on the truth in Scottish politics.

    https://x.com/graeme_from_IT/status/1957065710187790796
    Wings accusing @Malcolmg of talking pish - brave man.
    Although @malcolmg is the SI unit for The One True Scotsman, I assumed Wings was talking about another Scotsman called "Malcolm"
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,611
    @atrupar.com‬

    Welker plays Rubio a clip of him saying in 2022 that "you can't cut deals with guys" like Putin 😬

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lwm3k65deq2p
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,409
    Andy_JS said:

    "Rupert Lowe MP
    @RupertLowe10

    Uncontrolled mass immigration has entirely undermined our high-trust society."

    https://x.com/RupertLowe10/status/1957074571762213091

    Why the heck should I believe him?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,433
    MaxPB said:

    Ofcom vs 4chan, what a world we live in. Ofcom are going to get absolutely destroyed in the US courts system if they pursue it and the UK government has no power to compel an entirely US entity to pay a UK fine. As I said a few days ago, the government will quickly find that the only way to actually do this is to introduce a Chinese style great firewall that blocks all but approved websites and ban VPNs under pain of 20 years in a labour camp.

    Once 4chan wins, how quickly will companies with minor UK presence just give it up entirely and shift everything to the US to protect themselves from these idiotic laws and regulators.

    4chan don’t need to do anything. There is explicit US law denying the ability to pursue in the US courts for such foreign judgements.

  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,795
    Phil said:

    I can only presume Labour has internal polling or focus group responses that tell them that these attack lines on Reform are going to work, because they seem like transparent bullshit to me, but I’m obviously not the target voter they have in mind:

    “Rayner says Farage ‘failing young women’ with plan to scrap Online Safety Act”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/aug/17/rayner-says-farage-failing-young-women-plan-scrap-online-safety-act

    Either that, or they’re getting a bit panicky about the whole thing. I note in passing that 4Chan have stuck two fingers up to OFCOM after being threatened with a £20k fine plus daily penalties for being in contravention of the OSA.

    It’s also notable that they’re making no effort whatsoever to defend the act itself or engage with any of the criticism of it - it’s all ad hominem attacks on the critics.

    They’re pushing this quite hard: https://x.com/UKLabour/status/1956989437998420209

    Just seems a bit desperate to me: Revenge porn is already illegal in the UK under existing law that predates the OSA IIRC.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,848
    Surely something must be in motion as half of Europes leaders aren’t going to go all the way to the US for nothing.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,848
    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    I can only presume Labour has internal polling or focus group responses that tell them that these attack lines on Reform are going to work, because they seem like transparent bullshit to me, but I’m obviously not the target voter they have in mind:

    “Rayner says Farage ‘failing young women’ with plan to scrap Online Safety Act”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/aug/17/rayner-says-farage-failing-young-women-plan-scrap-online-safety-act

    Either that, or they’re getting a bit panicky about the whole thing. I note in passing that 4Chan have stuck two fingers up to OFCOM after being threatened with a £20k fine plus daily penalties for being in contravention of the OSA.

    It’s also notable that they’re making no effort whatsoever to defend the act itself or engage with any of the criticism of it - it’s all ad hominem attacks on the critics.

    They’re pushing this quite hard: https://x.com/UKLabour/status/1956989437998420209

    Just seems a bit desperate to me: Revenge porn is already illegal in the UK under existing law that predates the OSA IIRC.
    Maybe they asked ChatGPT5 for ideas….
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,506
    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    I can only presume Labour has internal polling or focus group responses that tell them that these attack lines on Reform are going to work, because they seem like transparent bullshit to me, but I’m obviously not the target voter they have in mind:

    “Rayner says Farage ‘failing young women’ with plan to scrap Online Safety Act”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/aug/17/rayner-says-farage-failing-young-women-plan-scrap-online-safety-act

    Either that, or they’re getting a bit panicky about the whole thing. I note in passing that 4Chan have stuck two fingers up to OFCOM after being threatened with a £20k fine plus daily penalties for being in contravention of the OSA.

    It’s also notable that they’re making no effort whatsoever to defend the act itself or engage with any of the criticism of it - it’s all ad hominem attacks on the critics.

    They’re pushing this quite hard: https://x.com/UKLabour/status/1956989437998420209

    Just seems a bit desperate to me: Revenge porn is already illegal in the UK under existing law that predates the OSA IIRC.
    Of course, and it was already illegal before that, without needing to be banned specifically.

    The ad-hominem attacks on critics of the OSA are quite extraordinary to watch.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,848
    edited August 17
    Novelist Sally Rooney says she will support Palestine Action despite ban https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp94jz0y7ygo

    Saying you are going to fund a terrorist organisation is not very smart. Will get you put on all sorts of watch lists.

    I don’t understand why these people instead rather stick to saying they think the act that allows the proscription of groups is ill defined. Therefore no supporting a terrorist group, but the motivation / virtue signalling is the same.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,433
    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    I can only presume Labour has internal polling or focus group responses that tell them that these attack lines on Reform are going to work, because they seem like transparent bullshit to me, but I’m obviously not the target voter they have in mind:

    “Rayner says Farage ‘failing young women’ with plan to scrap Online Safety Act”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/aug/17/rayner-says-farage-failing-young-women-plan-scrap-online-safety-act

    Either that, or they’re getting a bit panicky about the whole thing. I note in passing that 4Chan have stuck two fingers up to OFCOM after being threatened with a £20k fine plus daily penalties for being in contravention of the OSA.

    It’s also notable that they’re making no effort whatsoever to defend the act itself or engage with any of the criticism of it - it’s all ad hominem attacks on the critics.

    They’re pushing this quite hard: https://x.com/UKLabour/status/1956989437998420209

    Just seems a bit desperate to me: Revenge porn is already illegal in the UK under existing law that predates the OSA IIRC.
    They are desperate to justify the OSA. Which is managing to piss off all the wrong people.

    People love to say “Oh, won’t somebody please think of the children!” - but are rather less keen when *they* are targeted.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,951

    Novelist Sally Rooney says she will support Palestine Action despite ban https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp94jz0y7ygo

    Saying you are going to fund a terrorist organisation is not very smart.

    I don’t understand why these people instead rather stick to saying they think the act that allows the proscription of groups is ill defined. Therefore no supporting a terrorist group, but the motivation / virtue signalling is the same.

    I hope they get prosecuted for breaking the law.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,506

    Novelist Sally Rooney says she will support Palestine Action despite ban https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp94jz0y7ygo

    Saying you are going to fund a terrorist organisation is not very smart.

    I don’t understand why these people instead rather just say they think the act that allows the proscription of groups is ill defined. Therefore no supporting a terrorist group, but the motivation / virtue signalling is the same.

    Because she knows the police and government aren’t going to start imprisoning “people like her” #Nu10K

    Say that you’re supporting “Tommy”, on the other hand, and the police response might be different.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,946

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    I can only presume Labour has internal polling or focus group responses that tell them that these attack lines on Reform are going to work, because they seem like transparent bullshit to me, but I’m obviously not the target voter they have in mind:

    “Rayner says Farage ‘failing young women’ with plan to scrap Online Safety Act”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/aug/17/rayner-says-farage-failing-young-women-plan-scrap-online-safety-act

    Either that, or they’re getting a bit panicky about the whole thing. I note in passing that 4Chan have stuck two fingers up to OFCOM after being threatened with a £20k fine plus daily penalties for being in contravention of the OSA.

    It’s also notable that they’re making no effort whatsoever to defend the act itself or engage with any of the criticism of it - it’s all ad hominem attacks on the critics.

    They’re pushing this quite hard: https://x.com/UKLabour/status/1956989437998420209

    Just seems a bit desperate to me: Revenge porn is already illegal in the UK under existing law that predates the OSA IIRC.
    They are desperate to justify the OSA. Which is managing to piss off all the wrong people.

    People love to say “Oh, won’t somebody please think of the children!” - but are rather less keen when *they* are targeted.
    The question I would love to ask is how does the OSA solve anything to do with Revenge porn...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,843
    edited August 17
    Andy_JS said:

    "Rupert Lowe MP
    @RupertLowe10

    Uncontrolled mass immigration has entirely undermined our high-trust society."

    https://x.com/RupertLowe10/status/1957074571762213091

    The loss of our "high trust" society due to immigration. I've noticed this one taking off like a rocket in right wing populist discourse. High trust is code for something else of course.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,350

    Novelist Sally Rooney says she will support Palestine Action despite ban https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp94jz0y7ygo

    Saying you are going to fund a terrorist organisation is not very smart. Will get you put on all sorts of watch lists.

    I don’t understand why these people instead rather stick to saying they think the act that allows the proscription of groups is ill defined. Therefore no supporting a terrorist group, but the motivation / virtue signalling is the same.

    That story I posted earlier notes in passing that Russia also imprisons people for supporting organisations it calls terrorist (although they are more likely to be Ukrainian resistance groups with more than orange paint).
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,999

    Novelist Sally Rooney says she will support Palestine Action despite ban https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp94jz0y7ygo

    Saying you are going to fund a terrorist organisation is not very smart. Will get you put on all sorts of watch lists.

    I don’t understand why these people instead rather stick to saying they think the act that allows the proscription of groups is ill defined. Therefore no supporting a terrorist group, but the motivation / virtue signalling is the same.

    Would it be "supporting" PA to campaign to legalise it? Might be an interesting Court case, and an obvious freedom of speech issue
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,611
    @SkyNewsBreak

    Actor Terence Stamp dies at the age of 87
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,848
    edited August 17

    Novelist Sally Rooney says she will support Palestine Action despite ban https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp94jz0y7ygo

    Saying you are going to fund a terrorist organisation is not very smart. Will get you put on all sorts of watch lists.

    I don’t understand why these people instead rather stick to saying they think the act that allows the proscription of groups is ill defined. Therefore no supporting a terrorist group, but the motivation / virtue signalling is the same.

    Would it be "supporting" PA to campaign to legalise it? Might be an interesting Court case, and an obvious freedom of speech issue
    A campaign to overhaul the act isn’t illegal. It might have some unintended consequences of allowing some very nasty groups that your average PA supporter would be decrying in the same breath that they should be banned / supporters locked up.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,374
    Andy_JS said:

    Novelist Sally Rooney says she will support Palestine Action despite ban https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp94jz0y7ygo

    Saying you are going to fund a terrorist organisation is not very smart.

    I don’t understand why these people instead rather stick to saying they think the act that allows the proscription of groups is ill defined. Therefore no supporting a terrorist group, but the motivation / virtue signalling is the same.

    I hope they get prosecuted for breaking the law.
    She lives in Ireland
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,506
    edited August 17

    Novelist Sally Rooney says she will support Palestine Action despite ban https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp94jz0y7ygo

    Saying you are going to fund a terrorist organisation is not very smart. Will get you put on all sorts of watch lists.

    I don’t understand why these people instead rather stick to saying they think the act that allows the proscription of groups is ill defined. Therefore no supporting a terrorist group, but the motivation / virtue signalling is the same.

    Would it be "supporting" PA to campaign to legalise it? Might be an interesting Court case, and an obvious freedom of speech issue
    Freedom of speech doesn’t extend to causing millions in damage to the King’s aircraft, and planning several similar attacks on the country and its defensive infrastructure.

    If they’d stuck to speaking, they wouldn’t have been proscribed in the first place.
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,369
    CatMan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Novelist Sally Rooney says she will support Palestine Action despite ban https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp94jz0y7ygo

    Saying you are going to fund a terrorist organisation is not very smart.

    I don’t understand why these people instead rather stick to saying they think the act that allows the proscription of groups is ill defined. Therefore no supporting a terrorist group, but the motivation / virtue signalling is the same.

    I hope they get prosecuted for breaking the law.
    She lives in Ireland
    A nation not known for its citizens being supporters of terrorism…….
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,350
    How Germany's 6000 V1 & V2 Rockets Epic Fail
    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/2REypxxBRTw

    As part of my work watching every single YouTube video on behalf of pb, I have to read the comments as well and discovered this gem about an MP's family history:-

    A V2 came down and destroyed Woolworths in New Cross killing 168 people. My wife's grandmother was the ticket operator on board the double decker bus parked outside at the time. The blast flipped the bus and she was thrown off. She was the only survivor on board. She dedicated her life to politics after that swearing that man will not commit attrocities like this again. Her work paved the way for her granddaughter to enter the houses of parliament this year as an MP as Olivia Bailey, granddaughter of a very proud Olive Bailey.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,594

    kinabalu said:

    BBC now say Starmer is going.

    Wahay. Never in doubt.
    Before everyone gets too excited about all the European leaders falling over themselves to be in Washington and not miss out: I have a strong suspicion that they are not all in agreement over what kind of peace deal is acceptable.
    Does the line up make it difficult for Trump to cancel the meeting if Zelenskyy doesn’t wear a suit?

    Or does it make him feel even more powerful?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,848
    edited August 17
    I wouldn’t fancy a trip that at any point lands in the US if you have recently openly admitted that you want to fund terrorism.
  • scampi25scampi25 Posts: 220
    CatMan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Novelist Sally Rooney says she will support Palestine Action despite ban https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp94jz0y7ygo

    Saying you are going to fund a terrorist organisation is not very smart.

    I don’t understand why these people instead rather stick to saying they think the act that allows the proscription of groups is ill defined. Therefore no supporting a terrorist group, but the motivation / virtue signalling is the same.

    I hope they get prosecuted for breaking the law.
    She lives in Ireland
    Ah. Punishment enough.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,611
    @atrupar.com‬

    Marco Rubio: "Life in America on a daily basis will be largely unaffected whether there's peace in Ukraine or not. That's just a fact. We have a lot of issues we're focused on not just at home, but around the world."

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lwm5dmjobz2a
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,369

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "UK Tries to Censor US Website
    The UK's Ofcom tries to censor US website 4chan. This will not end well.
    BlackBeltBarrister"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxpeM7fDiz8

    4chan’s lawyer’s response to the government is a classic too.

    https://x.com/prestonjbyrne/status/1956391746029428914
    For those who didn’t know - years back, a certain U.K. law firm (and some fellow firms) started selling “libel tourism”.

    That is, anything published on the web is visible in the U.K.

    So under this bit of judicial activism, anyone on the planet could sue for libel in U.K. courts, if it is published online. No problems with the 1st Amendment in the US.

    Big fees would result….

    A cross party group in the US Congress passed a law making the results of any such judgements null and void in the US.

    The U.K. law firms and Mr Justice Cocklecarrot* were very upset.

    *See Private Eye for real name
    I’m greatly disappointed Mr Justice Cocklecarrot is not his real,name
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,594

    Putin's secret cyber warfare office ... in the heart of Covent Garden

    Stark Industries Solutions was billed as an internet provider operating out of central London. In reality, it was being used by the Kremlin to conduct a cyber warfare campaign and entrap Putin's enemies

    https://inews.co.uk/news/putins-secret-cyber-warfare-office-covent-garden-3847465

    Oops. Stay safe.

    Double oops because it was the pesky kids at the EU who sanctioned them.

    Stark Industries surely a pisstake? You’ve got to marvel at their chutzpah
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,999
    Sandpit said:

    Novelist Sally Rooney says she will support Palestine Action despite ban https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp94jz0y7ygo

    Saying you are going to fund a terrorist organisation is not very smart. Will get you put on all sorts of watch lists.

    I don’t understand why these people instead rather stick to saying they think the act that allows the proscription of groups is ill defined. Therefore no supporting a terrorist group, but the motivation / virtue signalling is the same.

    Would it be "supporting" PA to campaign to legalise it? Might be an interesting Court case, and an obvious freedom of speech issue
    Freedom of speech doesn’t extend to causing millions in damage to the King’s aircraft, and planning several similar attacks on the country and its defensive infrastructure.

    If they’d stuck to speaking, they wouldn’t have been proscribed in the first place.
    I still think it should be freedom of speech to verbally support a terrorist organisation. But not practical or financial support.

    It should be freedom of support to say that government actions are wrong.

    On balance I think it is correct that PA has been "banned" and the people who carried out the attacks should have the book thrown at them.

    But I also think that people should be able to publicly support them, and publicly say they should not have been banned.

    After all, you are allowed to support Israel and Russia. Russia is clearly a terrorist organisation, other than the fact it is a country and a state actor.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,843
    edited August 17
    Sandpit said:

    Novelist Sally Rooney says she will support Palestine Action despite ban https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp94jz0y7ygo

    Saying you are going to fund a terrorist organisation is not very smart.

    I don’t understand why these people instead rather just say they think the act that allows the proscription of groups is ill defined. Therefore no supporting a terrorist group, but the motivation / virtue signalling is the same.

    Because she knows the police and government aren’t going to start imprisoning “people like her” #Nu10K

    Say that you’re supporting “Tommy”, on the other hand, and the police response might be different.
    I thought the "Nu10k" were supposed to be overeducated entitled jobsworths in senior positions all looking after each other.

    Are we expanding it to include lefty novelists now?
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,999

    Novelist Sally Rooney says she will support Palestine Action despite ban https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp94jz0y7ygo

    Saying you are going to fund a terrorist organisation is not very smart. Will get you put on all sorts of watch lists.

    I don’t understand why these people instead rather stick to saying they think the act that allows the proscription of groups is ill defined. Therefore no supporting a terrorist group, but the motivation / virtue signalling is the same.

    Would it be "supporting" PA to campaign to legalise it? Might be an interesting Court case, and an obvious freedom of speech issue
    A campaign to overhaul the act isn’t illegal. It might have some unintended consequences of allowing some very nasty groups that your average PA supporter would be decrying in the same breath that they should be banned / supporters locked up.
    I'm not saying campaigning to change the Act, but campaigning to say that the SoS was wrong to apply it to PA and it should therefore be unbanned.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,594

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "UK Tries to Censor US Website
    The UK's Ofcom tries to censor US website 4chan. This will not end well.
    BlackBeltBarrister"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxpeM7fDiz8

    4chan’s lawyer’s response to the government is a classic too.

    https://x.com/prestonjbyrne/status/1956391746029428914
    For those who didn’t know - years back, a certain U.K. law firm (and some fellow firms) started selling “libel tourism”.

    That is, anything published on the web is visible in the U.K.

    So under this bit of judicial activism, anyone on the planet could sue for libel in U.K. courts, if it is published online. No problems with the 1st Amendment in the US.

    Big fees would result….

    A cross party group in the US Congress passed a law making the results of any such judgements null and void in the US.

    The U.K. law firms and Mr Justice Cocklecarrot* were very upset.

    *See Private Eye for real name
    That’s been the case even since foreign magazines started to be imported in small numbers.

    For all the politisation and polarisation in the US, one of few things on which all of the politicians agree is that the US is not a fan of foreign courts having jurisdiction over anything or anyone American.
    Quite right too.

    It is undemocratic.
    A country should be able to enforce its laws. The “no assets or operations” is a false logic - according to that theory it’s fine for a North Korean hacking cooperative to rob a French bank
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,283
    Scott_xP said:
    That the news organisation that's spent the last decade platforming Trump's shit can air this, without a hint of embarrassment or irony, is quite impressive, in its own way.

    Fox Host: I don't know what he's trying to do but it comes across as childish and you are the governor of the biggest state in the union, what are you doing?
    https://x.com/Acyn/status/1956565151815197115
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,724

    How Germany's 6000 V1 & V2 Rockets Epic Fail
    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/2REypxxBRTw

    As part of my work watching every single YouTube video on behalf of pb, I have to read the comments as well and discovered this gem about an MP's family history:-

    A V2 came down and destroyed Woolworths in New Cross killing 168 people. My wife's grandmother was the ticket operator on board the double decker bus parked outside at the time. The blast flipped the bus and she was thrown off. She was the only survivor on board. She dedicated her life to politics after that swearing that man will not commit attrocities like this again. Her work paved the way for her granddaughter to enter the houses of parliament this year as an MP as Olivia Bailey, granddaughter of a very proud Olive Bailey.

    Olive to Olivia in 2 generations..
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,506
    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Rupert Lowe MP
    @RupertLowe10

    Uncontrolled mass immigration has entirely undermined our high-trust society."

    https://x.com/RupertLowe10/status/1957074571762213091

    The loss of our "high trust" society due to immigration. I've noticed this one taking off like a rocket in right wing populist discourse. High trust is code for something else of course.
    When supermarkets are putting security tags on milk and cheese, then we have a trust problem.

    https://x.com/robprogressive/status/1956765654314361211

    If supermarkets in certain areas have to choose between looking like Haddows in Glasgow or moving to online deliveries only, then we all lose out.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,210
    edited August 17

    Surely something must be in motion as half of Europes leaders aren’t going to go all the way to the US for nothing.

    What's in motion is this. Trumpism thinks that the western alliance should be a European thing, not a USA + Europe + Canada thing. The USA sphere of influence is wanted elsewhere.

    Trumpism also thinks that Russia's sphere of influence should include part of eastern Europe, boundaries in the long run to be decided by Russia and Europe, not USA.

    Western Europe wants the alliance to be the whole of NATO, including of course the USA. The USA can abandon Europe whenever it likes but is not yet ready to make it undeniably obvious that it has switched sides. The frog boils more slowly than that.

    Western Europe is wondering how to get ready for that day. And is currently temporising.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,594

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:



    Sadly this is wishful thinking. The US has sold out Ukraine, the EU and UK aren't in any shape to resist Russia without US help and we won't be while we prioritise welfare above border defence.

    I tend to agree, but nothing is yet certain.
    Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of it, I wonder whether the Putin demand to acquire the rest of Donbas isn't calculated to be accepted by Trump and refused by Ukraine. It's not so obviously ridiculous to put Trump off, but it's hard to see Ukraine agreeing to give up territory that they've not already lost. But if they refuse, they might lose US support and then lose all four provinces.

    That said, the Ukrainian bar on surrendering territory is subject to referendum. If a hypothetical deal gave Ukraine other things that it wanted (e.g. the right to a NATO guarantee on their remaining territory, or even full NATO membership), it might pass, if Zelensky campaigned for it.
    That’s entirely how it’s designed.

    But it’s strategic very damaging to Ukraine unless you could trust Putin not to launch a further attack. They been trying to break through the Donbas defensive line for 11 years without success.

    Why would Zelensky give it up?
  • eekeek Posts: 30,946
    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Rupert Lowe MP
    @RupertLowe10

    Uncontrolled mass immigration has entirely undermined our high-trust society."

    https://x.com/RupertLowe10/status/1957074571762213091

    The loss of our "high trust" society due to immigration. I've noticed this one taking off like a rocket in right wing populist discourse. High trust is code for something else of course.
    When supermarkets are putting security tags on milk and cheese, then we have a trust problem.

    https://x.com/robprogressive/status/1956765654314361211

    If supermarkets in certain areas have to choose between looking like Haddows in Glasgow or moving to online deliveries only, then we all lose out.
    The problem is the shoplifters I've seen (white, local) don't exactly match the story he's trying to imply..
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,777
    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Rupert Lowe MP
    @RupertLowe10

    Uncontrolled mass immigration has entirely undermined our high-trust society."

    https://x.com/RupertLowe10/status/1957074571762213091

    The loss of our "high trust" society due to immigration. I've noticed this one taking off like a rocket in right wing populist discourse. High trust is code for something else of course.
    When supermarkets are putting security tags on milk and cheese, then we have a trust problem.

    https://x.com/robprogressive/status/1956765654314361211

    If supermarkets in certain areas have to choose between looking like Haddows in Glasgow or moving to online deliveries only, then we all lose out.
    the security tags are apparent in the supermarkets next to me, and in West Wales the number of immigrants ar much fewer. I think you are conflating them with the indigenous population who just can't afford to live.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,946

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "UK Tries to Censor US Website
    The UK's Ofcom tries to censor US website 4chan. This will not end well.
    BlackBeltBarrister"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxpeM7fDiz8

    4chan’s lawyer’s response to the government is a classic too.

    https://x.com/prestonjbyrne/status/1956391746029428914
    For those who didn’t know - years back, a certain U.K. law firm (and some fellow firms) started selling “libel tourism”.

    That is, anything published on the web is visible in the U.K.

    So under this bit of judicial activism, anyone on the planet could sue for libel in U.K. courts, if it is published online. No problems with the 1st Amendment in the US.

    Big fees would result….

    A cross party group in the US Congress passed a law making the results of any such judgements null and void in the US.

    The U.K. law firms and Mr Justice Cocklecarrot* were very upset.

    *See Private Eye for real name
    That’s been the case even since foreign magazines started to be imported in small numbers.

    For all the politisation and polarisation in the US, one of few things on which all of the politicians agree is that the US is not a fan of foreign courts having jurisdiction over anything or anyone American.
    Quite right too.

    It is undemocratic.
    A country should be able to enforce its laws. The “no assets or operations” is a false logic - according to that theory it’s fine for a North Korean hacking cooperative to rob a French bank
    The internet is global - you either accept that or make an idiot of yourself trying to enforce laws people will just work around or outright ignore.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,848

    Novelist Sally Rooney says she will support Palestine Action despite ban https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp94jz0y7ygo

    Saying you are going to fund a terrorist organisation is not very smart. Will get you put on all sorts of watch lists.

    I don’t understand why these people instead rather stick to saying they think the act that allows the proscription of groups is ill defined. Therefore no supporting a terrorist group, but the motivation / virtue signalling is the same.

    Would it be "supporting" PA to campaign to legalise it? Might be an interesting Court case, and an obvious freedom of speech issue
    A campaign to overhaul the act isn’t illegal. It might have some unintended consequences of allowing some very nasty groups that your average PA supporter would be decrying in the same breath that they should be banned / supporters locked up.
    I'm not saying campaigning to change the Act, but campaigning to say that the SoS was wrong to apply it to PA and it should therefore be unbanned.
    Well there are already legal challenges underway. There is no need to walk that line in the meantime.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,843
    edited August 17

    Novelist Sally Rooney says she will support Palestine Action despite ban https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp94jz0y7ygo

    Saying you are going to fund a terrorist organisation is not very smart. Will get you put on all sorts of watch lists.

    I don’t understand why these people instead rather stick to saying they think the act that allows the proscription of groups is ill defined. Therefore no supporting a terrorist group, but the motivation / virtue signalling is the same.

    Would it be "supporting" PA to campaign to legalise it? Might be an interesting Court case, and an obvious freedom of speech issue
    A campaign to overhaul the act isn’t illegal. It might have some unintended consequences of allowing some very nasty groups that your average PA supporter would be decrying in the same breath that they should be banned / supporters locked up.
    But more specifically, say a person goes out and protests not support for PA but only that PA should not be proscribed - is that breaking the law?

    Not expecting you to know, just wondering about that point. Whether saying XYZ shouldn't be called terrorists is deemed to be supporting XYZ.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,283
    algarkirk said:

    Surely something must be in motion as half of Europes leaders aren’t going to go all the way to the US for nothing.

    What's in motion is this. Trumpism thinks that the western alliance should be a European thing, not a USA + Europe + Canada thing. The USA sphere of influence is wanted elsewhere.

    Trumpism also thinks that Russia's sphere of influence should include part of eastern Europe, boundaries in the long run to be decided by Russia and Europe, not USA.

    If that's really the case, then they should say so explicitly, and leave the negotiations to us.

    You are of course right that the time for temporising is over for us.
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,369

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    boulay said:

    kinabalu said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @SkyNews

    BREAKING: France's president Emmanuel Macron and Finnish president Alexander Stubb are the latest European leaders to say they will attend Zelenskyy and Trump's meeting

    Is that a good thing? Is this a Z/T meeting or a meeting at which Z/T are among the participants?
    Nobody, including and perhaps least of all, the attendees has any fucking clue. It's make-it-up-as-go-along school of statecraft.

    It's probably a combination of FOMO from the European leaders, nobody wants to be the first lift sanctions on Russia but also they definitely don't want to be the last, and DJT enjoying summoning them across the Atlantic so he can be rude/incomprehensible to them.
    I think they should all send body doubles.
    But really shit ones, like the rubbish waxworks of famous people in those Madame Tussaud’s rip-offs.

    Maybe they could send Mark Kermode for Keir Starmer.

    That's quite a good one. Definitely close enough to fool Trump, I think.
    Kermode would be found out to be an imposter as soon as he said something interesting.
    So never then?
    I think he's an interesting film reviewer.
    The Kermode and Mayo film review "show" after they left R5 isn't very good. Its all a bit sad now seeing them both in their back bedrooms doing the podcast.
    He still has a R4 slot.
    The R5 show was iconic though.
    It was first,class. As Sandpit says. Stuck in traffic on a Friday listening to it. Fabulous.

    Sparkling repartee and great interaction with the Audience.

    It’s all a shadow of its former self.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,594
    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Rupert Lowe MP
    @RupertLowe10

    Uncontrolled mass immigration has entirely undermined our high-trust society."

    https://x.com/RupertLowe10/status/1957074571762213091

    The loss of our "high trust" society due to immigration. I've noticed this one taking off like a rocket in right wing populist discourse. High trust is code for something else of course.
    There’s respectable academic literature around the circles of trust - your family, your extended family, your village, etc
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,369
    boulay said:

    kinabalu said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @SkyNews

    BREAKING: France's president Emmanuel Macron and Finnish president Alexander Stubb are the latest European leaders to say they will attend Zelenskyy and Trump's meeting

    Is that a good thing? Is this a Z/T meeting or a meeting at which Z/T are among the participants?
    Nobody, including and perhaps least of all, the attendees has any fucking clue. It's make-it-up-as-go-along school of statecraft.

    It's probably a combination of FOMO from the European leaders, nobody wants to be the first lift sanctions on Russia but also they definitely don't want to be the last, and DJT enjoying summoning them across the Atlantic so he can be rude/incomprehensible to them.
    I think they should all send body doubles.
    But really shit ones, like the rubbish waxworks of famous people in those Madame Tussaud’s rip-offs.

    Maybe they could send Mark Kermode for Keir Starmer.


    ‘Danny Dyer !’
  • Andy_JS said:

    "UK Tries to Censor US Website
    The UK's Ofcom tries to censor US website 4chan. This will not end well.
    BlackBeltBarrister"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxpeM7fDiz8

    I think Daniel is missing the point here. Going after 4chan isn't about fining them, Ofcom is not (quite) that stupid. It's about removing them from the internet in the UK. If 4chan doesn't voluntarily pay the fines or implement age verification Ofcom can, and will, instruct ISPs to block the site.

    This is the first step in the Great Firewall of Britain.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,283
    The administration wants simultaneously to sell Ukraine out to Putin, and pretend it's not happening.

    Tapper: "Trump told Fox that he and Putin 'largely have agreed on' land swaps. Sources tell CNN that Trump told European leaders that Putin will agree to end the war...in exchange for Ukraine ceding the entire Donbas region. Is that accurate?"

    Witkoff: "I don't know that we have the time now to go through all the different issues."

    https://x.com/BulwarkOnline/status/1957069860912931097
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,724
    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Rupert Lowe MP
    @RupertLowe10

    Uncontrolled mass immigration has entirely undermined our high-trust society."

    https://x.com/RupertLowe10/status/1957074571762213091

    The loss of our "high trust" society due to immigration. I've noticed this one taking off like a rocket in right wing populist discourse. High trust is code for something else of course.
    When supermarkets are putting security tags on milk and cheese, then we have a trust problem.

    https://x.com/robprogressive/status/1956765654314361211

    If supermarkets in certain areas have to choose between looking like Haddows in Glasgow or moving to online deliveries only, then we all lose out.
    The problem is the shoplifters I've seen (white, local) don't exactly match the story he's trying to imply..
    Wasn’t the first burst of security tags on food (Lurpak was the one I remember) as a result of the cost of living crisis and the lifting done mainly by destitute indigenes?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,848
    edited August 17
    kinabalu said:

    Novelist Sally Rooney says she will support Palestine Action despite ban https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp94jz0y7ygo

    Saying you are going to fund a terrorist organisation is not very smart. Will get you put on all sorts of watch lists.

    I don’t understand why these people instead rather stick to saying they think the act that allows the proscription of groups is ill defined. Therefore no supporting a terrorist group, but the motivation / virtue signalling is the same.

    Would it be "supporting" PA to campaign to legalise it? Might be an interesting Court case, and an obvious freedom of speech issue
    A campaign to overhaul the act isn’t illegal. It might have some unintended consequences of allowing some very nasty groups that your average PA supporter would be decrying in the same breath that they should be banned / supporters locked up.
    But more specifically, say a person goes out and protests not support for PA but only that PA should not be proscribed - is that breaking the law?

    Not expecting you to know, just wondering about that point. Whether saying XYZ shouldn't be called terrorists is deemed to be supporting XYZ.
    I think you are still on dicey ground. That could be deemed moral support.

    invite support for a proscribed organisation (the support invited need not be material support, such as the provision of money or other property, and can also include moral support or approval) (section 12(1))

    express an opinion or belief that is supportive of a proscribed organisation, reckless as to whether a person to whom the expression is directed will be encouraged to support a proscribed organisation (section 12(1A))

    I can't see how you fall of this if you don't mention PA, rather say you are campaigning for reform to this act as it you believe it is poorly defined in many areas, gives too much power to the government etc. Everybody will still know what you mean / why you are doing it.

    You are absolute pillock to start writing in newspaper columns that you are going to send money to them.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,563
    edited August 17
    Scott_xP said:

    @SkyNewsBreak

    Actor Terence Stamp dies at the age of 87

    "Terry meets Julie, Waterloo Station, every Friday night..."
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,594
    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "UK Tries to Censor US Website
    The UK's Ofcom tries to censor US website 4chan. This will not end well.
    BlackBeltBarrister"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxpeM7fDiz8

    4chan’s lawyer’s response to the government is a classic too.

    https://x.com/prestonjbyrne/status/1956391746029428914
    For those who didn’t know - years back, a certain U.K. law firm (and some fellow firms) started selling “libel tourism”.

    That is, anything published on the web is visible in the U.K.

    So under this bit of judicial activism, anyone on the planet could sue for libel in U.K. courts, if it is published online. No problems with the 1st Amendment in the US.

    Big fees would result….

    A cross party group in the US Congress passed a law making the results of any such judgements null and void in the US.

    The U.K. law firms and Mr Justice Cocklecarrot* were very upset.

    *See Private Eye for real name
    That’s been the case even since foreign magazines started to be imported in small numbers.

    For all the politisation and polarisation in the US, one of few things on which all of the politicians agree is that the US is not a fan of foreign courts having jurisdiction over anything or anyone American.
    Quite right too.

    It is undemocratic.
    A country should be able to enforce its laws. The “no assets or operations” is a false logic - according to that theory it’s fine for a North Korean hacking cooperative to rob a French bank
    The internet is global - you either accept that or make an idiot of yourself trying to enforce laws people will just work around or outright ignore.
    Sure. This particular law is a bad law. But I was engaging on the philosophy
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,611
    @lrozen

    Rubio making argument that whether Russia invades another sovereign country is not a US national security concern

    https://x.com/lrozen/status/1957095086837133502
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,576
    'US President Donald Trump was riding along in his motorcade through Washington DC last Sunday on the way to his golf club when he saw something that clearly irked him - a homeless tent encampment on a patch of grass.

    "The Homeless have to move out, IMMEDIATELY," he posted on Truth Social that morning, along with four photos.

    One of these showed a man sitting in a camping chair by his tent, who I would eventually learn was Bill Theodie. Four days later, Mr Theodie was forced to move after the president announced a crackdown on homelessness in the nation's capital.'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2x39d2jxvo
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,445
    Nigelb said:

    The administration wants simultaneously to sell Ukraine out to Putin, and pretend it's not happening.

    Tapper: "Trump told Fox that he and Putin 'largely have agreed on' land swaps. Sources tell CNN that Trump told European leaders that Putin will agree to end the war...in exchange for Ukraine ceding the entire Donbas region. Is that accurate?"

    Witkoff: "I don't know that we have the time now to go through all the different issues."

    https://x.com/BulwarkOnline/status/1957069860912931097

    Pretty much. Most of us would recognise our conscience trying to tell us something.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,843
    algarkirk said:

    Surely something must be in motion as half of Europes leaders aren’t going to go all the way to the US for nothing.

    What's in motion is this. Trumpism thinks that the western alliance should be a European thing, not a USA + Europe + Canada thing. The USA sphere of influence is wanted elsewhere.

    Trumpism also thinks that Russia's sphere of influence should include part of eastern Europe, boundaries in the long run to be decided by Russia and Europe, not USA.

    Western Europe wants the alliance to be the whole of NATO, including of course the USA. The USA can abandon Europe whenever it likes but is not yet ready to make it undeniably obvious that it has switched sides. The frog boils more slowly than that.

    Western Europe is wondering how to get ready for that day. And is currently temporising.
    So where do you think he thinks the USA should be directing its economic and military might?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,611
    There must come a point (surely) when the US media stops reporting the batshit insane things DementiaDon says, and starts reporting the consequences.

    Inflation is rising. Tariffs are hurting US consumers. Armed vigilanties are detaining citizens in the street. Putin is dictating foreign policy.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,777

    Andy_JS said:

    "UK Tries to Censor US Website
    The UK's Ofcom tries to censor US website 4chan. This will not end well.
    BlackBeltBarrister"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxpeM7fDiz8

    I think Daniel is missing the point here. Going after 4chan isn't about fining them, Ofcom is not (quite) that stupid. It's about removing them from the internet in the UK. If 4chan doesn't voluntarily pay the fines or implement age verification Ofcom can, and will, instruct ISPs to block the site.

    This is the first step in the Great Firewall of Britain.
    I agree, and if Elon doesn't get his act together we should do the same for Twix.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,210

    Sandpit said:

    Novelist Sally Rooney says she will support Palestine Action despite ban https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp94jz0y7ygo

    Saying you are going to fund a terrorist organisation is not very smart. Will get you put on all sorts of watch lists.

    I don’t understand why these people instead rather stick to saying they think the act that allows the proscription of groups is ill defined. Therefore no supporting a terrorist group, but the motivation / virtue signalling is the same.

    Would it be "supporting" PA to campaign to legalise it? Might be an interesting Court case, and an obvious freedom of speech issue
    Freedom of speech doesn’t extend to causing millions in damage to the King’s aircraft, and planning several similar attacks on the country and its defensive infrastructure.

    If they’d stuck to speaking, they wouldn’t have been proscribed in the first place.
    I still think it should be freedom of speech to verbally support a terrorist organisation. But not practical or financial support.

    It should be freedom of support to say that government actions are wrong.

    On balance I think it is correct that PA has been "banned" and the people who carried out the attacks should have the book thrown at them.

    But I also think that people should be able to publicly support them, and publicly say they should not have been banned.

    After all, you are allowed to support Israel and Russia. Russia is clearly a terrorist organisation, other than the fact it is a country and a state actor.

    It's a fine line, and of course Rentacrowd are expert at knowing it, but the distinction is this: You can't say on a banner in public "I support XYZ" (a banned terrorist organisation) but you can (IMO - DYOR) say "XYZ should be unbanned".

    Your banner (IMO, DYOR) can also say (shades of Judean Liberation Front) "I am not supporting Palestine Action but I support taking action about Palestine ACTION PALESTINE TODAY!!!"
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,300
    I am working for the MOD now as you can feel the sarcasm.


  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,210
    Scott_xP said:

    There must come a point (surely) when the US media stops reporting the batshit insane things DementiaDon says, and starts reporting the consequences.

    Inflation is rising. Tariffs are hurting US consumers. Armed vigilanties are detaining citizens in the street. Putin is dictating foreign policy.

    There are two USA medias, the one which reports none of this and the one which reports nothing else.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,374

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Rupert Lowe MP
    @RupertLowe10

    Uncontrolled mass immigration has entirely undermined our high-trust society."

    https://x.com/RupertLowe10/status/1957074571762213091

    The loss of our "high trust" society due to immigration. I've noticed this one taking off like a rocket in right wing populist discourse. High trust is code for something else of course.
    When supermarkets are putting security tags on milk and cheese, then we have a trust problem.

    https://x.com/robprogressive/status/1956765654314361211

    If supermarkets in certain areas have to choose between looking like Haddows in Glasgow or moving to online deliveries only, then we all lose out.
    The problem is the shoplifters I've seen (white, local) don't exactly match the story he's trying to imply..
    Wasn’t the first burst of security tags on food (Lurpak was the one I remember) as a result of the cost of living crisis and the lifting done mainly by destitute indigenes?
    This is a British shop for British shoplifting, there's nothing for you here
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,843
    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Rupert Lowe MP
    @RupertLowe10

    Uncontrolled mass immigration has entirely undermined our high-trust society."

    https://x.com/RupertLowe10/status/1957074571762213091

    The loss of our "high trust" society due to immigration. I've noticed this one taking off like a rocket in right wing populist discourse. High trust is code for something else of course.
    When supermarkets are putting security tags on milk and cheese, then we have a trust problem.

    https://x.com/robprogressive/status/1956765654314361211

    If supermarkets in certain areas have to choose between looking like Haddows in Glasgow or moving to online deliveries only, then we all lose out.
    Shoplifting and phone snatching is up. Most crimes and crime in general inc violent crime is down.

    Somehow this is meant to support assertions that mass immigration has undermined our high-trust society.

    It's dog-whistling.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,611
    @Reuters

    Swedish prime minister to attend Sunday's 'Coalition of the Willing' meeting, spokesperson says
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,350
    Scott_xP said:

    There must come a point (surely) when the US media stops reporting the batshit insane things DementiaDon says, and starts reporting the consequences.

    Inflation is rising. Tariffs are hurting US consumers. Armed vigilanties are detaining citizens in the street. Putin is dictating foreign policy.

    It might be the media that does for The Donald but I suspect he will go the same way as Boris, whose colleagues eventually tired of being sent out to lie for him, only to discover later on that the official story had changed anyway.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,611

    Scott_xP said:

    There must come a point (surely) when the US media stops reporting the batshit insane things DementiaDon says, and starts reporting the consequences.

    Inflation is rising. Tariffs are hurting US consumers. Armed vigilanties are detaining citizens in the street. Putin is dictating foreign policy.

    It might be the media that does for The Donald but I suspect he will go the same way as Boris, whose colleagues eventually tired of being sent out to lie for him, only to discover later on that the official story had changed anyway.
    Watching Rubio this morning we are some way away from that. He is not only sanewashing Trump but also Putin.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,848
    edited August 17
    Scott_xP said:

    @Reuters

    Swedish prime minister to attend Sunday's 'Coalition of the Willing' meeting, spokesperson says

    Initially he said he wasn't going and would just listen in on Zoom...something is clearly in motion as every European leader can't get their Jet2 vacation flight rebooked to the US fast enough this afternoon.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,843

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "UK Tries to Censor US Website
    The UK's Ofcom tries to censor US website 4chan. This will not end well.
    BlackBeltBarrister"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxpeM7fDiz8

    4chan’s lawyer’s response to the government is a classic too.

    https://x.com/prestonjbyrne/status/1956391746029428914
    For those who didn’t know - years back, a certain U.K. law firm (and some fellow firms) started selling “libel tourism”.

    That is, anything published on the web is visible in the U.K.

    So under this bit of judicial activism, anyone on the planet could sue for libel in U.K. courts, if it is published online. No problems with the 1st Amendment in the US.

    Big fees would result….

    A cross party group in the US Congress passed a law making the results of any such judgements null and void in the US.

    The U.K. law firms and Mr Justice Cocklecarrot* were very upset.

    *See Private Eye for real name
    That’s been the case even since foreign magazines started to be imported in small numbers.

    For all the politisation and polarisation in the US, one of few things on which all of the politicians agree is that the US is not a fan of foreign courts having jurisdiction over anything or anyone American.
    Quite right too.

    It is undemocratic.
    A country should be able to enforce its laws. The “no assets or operations” is a false logic - according to that theory it’s fine for a North Korean hacking cooperative to rob a French bank
    It's certainly not "undemocratic" for a democratic country to apply its laws to things that happen within it. Rather the opposite in fact.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,621
    kinabalu said:

    Novelist Sally Rooney says she will support Palestine Action despite ban https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp94jz0y7ygo

    Saying you are going to fund a terrorist organisation is not very smart. Will get you put on all sorts of watch lists.

    I don’t understand why these people instead rather stick to saying they think the act that allows the proscription of groups is ill defined. Therefore no supporting a terrorist group, but the motivation / virtue signalling is the same.

    Would it be "supporting" PA to campaign to legalise it? Might be an interesting Court case, and an obvious freedom of speech issue
    A campaign to overhaul the act isn’t illegal. It might have some unintended consequences of allowing some very nasty groups that your average PA supporter would be decrying in the same breath that they should be banned / supporters locked up.
    But more specifically, say a person goes out and protests not support for PA but only that PA should not be proscribed - is that breaking the law?

    Not expecting you to know, just wondering about that point. Whether saying XYZ shouldn't be called terrorists is deemed to be supporting XYZ.
    There's a court case in November to overturn the proscription of PA so presumably not illegal to say they should be unbanned.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,843
    Scott_xP said:

    @atrupar.com‬

    Marco Rubio: "Life in America on a daily basis will be largely unaffected whether there's peace in Ukraine or not. That's just a fact. We have a lot of issues we're focused on not just at home, but around the world."

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lwm5dmjobz2a

    An interesting take from the SoS in charge of foreign affairs.
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,369
    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Rupert Lowe MP
    @RupertLowe10

    Uncontrolled mass immigration has entirely undermined our high-trust society."

    https://x.com/RupertLowe10/status/1957074571762213091

    The loss of our "high trust" society due to immigration. I've noticed this one taking off like a rocket in right wing populist discourse. High trust is code for something else of course.
    When supermarkets are putting security tags on milk and cheese, then we have a trust problem.

    https://x.com/robprogressive/status/1956765654314361211

    If supermarkets in certain areas have to choose between looking like Haddows in Glasgow or moving to online deliveries only, then we all lose out.
    Shoplifting and phone snatching is up. Most crimes and crime in general inc violent crime is down.

    Somehow this is meant to support assertions that mass immigration has undermined our high-trust society.

    It's dog-whistling.
    Don’t worry. The PB centrist Dad brigade is out in force to Pooh-pooh it while burnishing their ‘right on’ credentials. Most people just don’t give such stuff the time of day. 👍
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,369
    Scott_xP said:

    @Reuters

    Swedish prime minister to attend Sunday's 'Coalition of the Willing' meeting, spokesperson says

    It’s nice to see the European govts finally waking up on this. The Swedes and the Finns were so bothered that for many years they were not even in NATO. It was only Russia going full on into Ukraine they realised NATO was probably a better bet than not.
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,369
    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @atrupar.com‬

    Marco Rubio: "Life in America on a daily basis will be largely unaffected whether there's peace in Ukraine or not. That's just a fact. We have a lot of issues we're focused on not just at home, but around the world."

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lwm5dmjobz2a

    An interesting take from the SoS in charge of foreign affairs.
    How is he wrong ?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,433
    edited August 17
    eek said:

    Phil said:

    Phil said:

    I can only presume Labour has internal polling or focus group responses that tell them that these attack lines on Reform are going to work, because they seem like transparent bullshit to me, but I’m obviously not the target voter they have in mind:

    “Rayner says Farage ‘failing young women’ with plan to scrap Online Safety Act”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/aug/17/rayner-says-farage-failing-young-women-plan-scrap-online-safety-act

    Either that, or they’re getting a bit panicky about the whole thing. I note in passing that 4Chan have stuck two fingers up to OFCOM after being threatened with a £20k fine plus daily penalties for being in contravention of the OSA.

    It’s also notable that they’re making no effort whatsoever to defend the act itself or engage with any of the criticism of it - it’s all ad hominem attacks on the critics.

    They’re pushing this quite hard: https://x.com/UKLabour/status/1956989437998420209

    Just seems a bit desperate to me: Revenge porn is already illegal in the UK under existing law that predates the OSA IIRC.
    They are desperate to justify the OSA. Which is managing to piss off all the wrong people.

    People love to say “Oh, won’t somebody please think of the children!” - but are rather less keen when *they* are targeted.
    The question I would love to ask is how does the OSA solve anything to do with Revenge porn...
    Ahem


    There is already profitable legal business in using OSA threats against people who are saying inconvenient things.
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,369
    Well this will trigger Man City and Coventry City soccer fans

    https://x.com/reformparty_uk/status/1957094923154444535?s=61
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,691
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DM_Andy said:

    kinabalu said:

    boulay said:

    kinabalu said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @SkyNews

    BREAKING: France's president Emmanuel Macron and Finnish president Alexander Stubb are the latest European leaders to say they will attend Zelenskyy and Trump's meeting

    Is that a good thing? Is this a Z/T meeting or a meeting at which Z/T are among the participants?
    Nobody, including and perhaps least of all, the attendees has any fucking clue. It's make-it-up-as-go-along school of statecraft.

    It's probably a combination of FOMO from the European leaders, nobody wants to be the first lift sanctions on Russia but also they definitely don't want to be the last, and DJT enjoying summoning them across the Atlantic so he can be rude/incomprehensible to them.
    I think they should all send body doubles.
    But really shit ones, like the rubbish waxworks of famous people in those Madame Tussaud’s rip-offs.

    Maybe they could send Mark Kermode for Keir Starmer.

    That's quite a good one. Definitely close enough to fool Trump, I think.
    They could send David Lammy in place of Keir and it would fool Trump.

    They could send a fucking scatter cushion instead of David Lammy, to anywhere on earth, and no one would notice the intellectual difference
    David Lammy, the Harvard-educated lawyer who got Britain a better trade deal?
    No, David Lammy who thinks Henry VII came AFTER Henry VIII
    That would be the Cambridge-educated David Lammy. It's easy to get them confused.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,843
    Taz said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Rupert Lowe MP
    @RupertLowe10

    Uncontrolled mass immigration has entirely undermined our high-trust society."

    https://x.com/RupertLowe10/status/1957074571762213091

    The loss of our "high trust" society due to immigration. I've noticed this one taking off like a rocket in right wing populist discourse. High trust is code for something else of course.
    When supermarkets are putting security tags on milk and cheese, then we have a trust problem.

    https://x.com/robprogressive/status/1956765654314361211

    If supermarkets in certain areas have to choose between looking like Haddows in Glasgow or moving to online deliveries only, then we all lose out.
    Shoplifting and phone snatching is up. Most crimes and crime in general inc violent crime is down.

    Somehow this is meant to support assertions that mass immigration has undermined our high-trust society.

    It's dog-whistling.
    Don’t worry. The PB centrist Dad brigade is out in force to Pooh-pooh it while burnishing their ‘right on’ credentials. Most people just don’t give such stuff the time of day. 👍
    The dogs ignore the whistle, you mean? I'd like to believe so but the whistlers must think otherwise.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,283
    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    Surely something must be in motion as half of Europes leaders aren’t going to go all the way to the US for nothing.

    What's in motion is this. Trumpism thinks that the western alliance should be a European thing, not a USA + Europe + Canada thing. The USA sphere of influence is wanted elsewhere.

    Trumpism also thinks that Russia's sphere of influence should include part of eastern Europe, boundaries in the long run to be decided by Russia and Europe, not USA.

    Western Europe wants the alliance to be the whole of NATO, including of course the USA. The USA can abandon Europe whenever it likes but is not yet ready to make it undeniably obvious that it has switched sides. The frog boils more slowly than that.

    Western Europe is wondering how to get ready for that day. And is currently temporising.
    So where do you think he thinks the USA should be directing its economic and military might?
    The first into his pockets.
    The second, against his domestic opponents.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,210
    edited August 17
    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    Surely something must be in motion as half of Europes leaders aren’t going to go all the way to the US for nothing.

    What's in motion is this. Trumpism thinks that the western alliance should be a European thing, not a USA + Europe + Canada thing. The USA sphere of influence is wanted elsewhere.

    Trumpism also thinks that Russia's sphere of influence should include part of eastern Europe, boundaries in the long run to be decided by Russia and Europe, not USA.

    Western Europe wants the alliance to be the whole of NATO, including of course the USA. The USA can abandon Europe whenever it likes but is not yet ready to make it undeniably obvious that it has switched sides. The frog boils more slowly than that.

    Western Europe is wondering how to get ready for that day. And is currently temporising.
    So where do you think he thinks the USA should be directing its economic and military might?
    Interesting questions. On economic might, Trumpism is principally concerned about greater USA wealth, and has mercantilist leanings. Lots more to be said, but IANAE.

    Military might? Trump likes a big military but doesn't want to fight as he doesn't want any dead USA soldiers. The might's first aim is deterrence. My next guesses are these: he wants out of Europe; he wants out of middle east even ultimately Israel except for a deterrent guarantee; he wants his military to protect the interest of the USA in a world of big power bloc spheres of influence.

    Further guesses:
    Taiwan - Trumpism won't support, it's China's if they want it.
    Canada/Greenland: these two targets 100% affirm the 'USA spheres of influence' view.
    Israel: One state solution. protected by USA and Israel's nuclear deterrent. (But in fact insoluble).
    Europe: Not to be USA's direct concern. Two big blocs - Russia+as yet undetermined parts of eastern Europe; and European NATO/EU area.
    International Order: No concern of USA military. International order is for losers.

    (I don't support any of this, but I think Trumpism is broadly along these lines. the current Ukraine/Russia pantomime is WRT to overall picture a little local issue about where the Russia bloc line is drawn in Europe. Trumpism doesn't care about the detail of this.)
  • TazTaz Posts: 20,369
    edited August 17
    kinabalu said:

    Taz said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Rupert Lowe MP
    @RupertLowe10

    Uncontrolled mass immigration has entirely undermined our high-trust society."

    https://x.com/RupertLowe10/status/1957074571762213091

    The loss of our "high trust" society due to immigration. I've noticed this one taking off like a rocket in right wing populist discourse. High trust is code for something else of course.
    When supermarkets are putting security tags on milk and cheese, then we have a trust problem.

    https://x.com/robprogressive/status/1956765654314361211

    If supermarkets in certain areas have to choose between looking like Haddows in Glasgow or moving to online deliveries only, then we all lose out.
    Shoplifting and phone snatching is up. Most crimes and crime in general inc violent crime is down.

    Somehow this is meant to support assertions that mass immigration has undermined our high-trust society.

    It's dog-whistling.
    Don’t worry. The PB centrist Dad brigade is out in force to Pooh-pooh it while burnishing their ‘right on’ credentials. Most people just don’t give such stuff the time of day. 👍
    The dogs ignore the whistle, you mean? I'd like to believe so but the whistlers must think otherwise.
    Right on, grandad 👍

    Perhaps they’re just savvy enough to see it for what it is and not indulge it.
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