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Flipping Texas and Florida? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,627
edited August 15 in General
Flipping Texas and Florida? – politicalbetting.com

It took Biden far longer than just 8 months to reach numbers like this and he never recovered. The biggest shock in this poll: Trump’s approval among Latinos is -43%. That’s nightmare territory for Republicans who thought their 2024 gains with Latino voters were locked in. https://t.co/Z8jEzZox2w

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Comments

  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,834
    Polls like this just indicate to Mr Trump what figures need to be fudged.

    Good morning.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,551
    It's only a problem for the GOP if they let everybody vote and count all of them
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,082
    It would be useful to have the equivalent data for the 2016-2020 period for comparison.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,082

    It would be useful to have the equivalent data for the 2016-2020 period for comparison.

    It would also be useful to have the comparison data within different Hispanic groups.

    Mexican Hispanics in Texas are different to Cuban Hispanics in Florida and Puerto Rican Hispanics in New York.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,431
    AnneJGP said:

    Polls like this just indicate to Mr Trump what figures need to be fudged.

    Good morning.

    Fortunately, strong charismatic leaders have never ever sought to fudge electoral fig..

    .. oh fudge.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,210
    Here's more recent polling that you won't hear Trump or Farage supporters mentioning.

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/692522/surge-concern-immigration-abated.aspx
    ...Americans have grown markedly more positive toward immigration over the past year, with the share wanting immigration reduced dropping from 55% in 2024 to 30% today. At the same time, a record-high 79% of U.S. adults say immigration is a good thing for the country.

    These shifts reverse a four-year trend of rising concern about immigration that began in 2021 and reflect changes among all major party groups...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,136
    It still irritates me that the Americans insist on telling you that the difference between 47 and 52 is 5 (which might be classed as unnecessary information) and fail to tell us how these numbers compare with the last ones giving the direction of travel. Why on earth do they do this?

    Having said this, I got lured into watching a video yesterday when people in the street were being asked if a die was rolled 420 times how many 3s would you expect? The people getting it wrong included a teacher, allegedly. Innumeracy rules, apparently.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,703
    Most of my American friends are suggesting that the Mid terms will be the crucial moment, with the general expectation that the Republicans will be massacred on an historic scale.

    They also suggest that attempts by the MAGA loons to gerrymander and rig the elections will fail.

    Certainly have to admire their optimism, but if the US is still a functioning democracy at the end of 2026, then they could well be right.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,266
    DavidL said:

    It still irritates me that the Americans insist on telling you that the difference between 47 and 52 is 5 (which might be classed as unnecessary information) and fail to tell us how these numbers compare with the last ones giving the direction of travel. Why on earth do they do this?

    Having said this, I got lured into watching a video yesterday when people in the street were being asked if a die was rolled 420 times how many 3s would you expect? The people getting it wrong included a teacher, allegedly. Innumeracy rules, apparently.

    It still blows my mind how many supposedly intelligent people think I am wrong when I tell them you get more pizza with one 18 inch pizza than with two 12 inch pizzas.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,136

    DavidL said:

    It still irritates me that the Americans insist on telling you that the difference between 47 and 52 is 5 (which might be classed as unnecessary information) and fail to tell us how these numbers compare with the last ones giving the direction of travel. Why on earth do they do this?

    Having said this, I got lured into watching a video yesterday when people in the street were being asked if a die was rolled 420 times how many 3s would you expect? The people getting it wrong included a teacher, allegedly. Innumeracy rules, apparently.

    How many sides?
    Fair enough. The assumption was 6.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,210
    Cicero said:

    Most of my American friends are suggesting that the Mid terms will be the crucial moment, with the general expectation that the Republicans will be massacred on an historic scale.

    They also suggest that attempts by the MAGA loons to gerrymander and rig the elections will fail.

    Certainly have to admire their optimism, but if the US is still a functioning democracy at the end of 2026, then they could well be right.

    I hope they're right.
    It might be their last chance.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,179
    There will be a Reichstag fire process. The question is whether it will be one staged event, or a process, already begun, whereby when the trap closes on free and fair elections it won't be a surprise.

    What do people think the federal law enforcement in Washington DC is about? It's about enforcement in the non democratic future when the door closes and realisation dawns.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,791
    edited August 15
    On the Latino falling out with Trump, funnily enough I was talking to a Mexican-American small businessman here in Sarajevo yesterday. He himself would never have voted for Trump, but he had friends and relatives who had. He shook his head in retrospective disbelief at their stupidity. He himself also owns some Airbnbs in Florida and had noticed a collapse in demand from Europeans and Canadians.

    On why they were falling out with him, he hold me it's exactly as you'd expect - people don't like having their neighbourhoods raided by masked government thugs and their friends and relatives held and deported. The softening economy, the counter-productive trade policy and the trashing of America's diplomatic position worldwide are minor matters compared to that for his friends and relatives anyway.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,082

    DavidL said:

    It still irritates me that the Americans insist on telling you that the difference between 47 and 52 is 5 (which might be classed as unnecessary information) and fail to tell us how these numbers compare with the last ones giving the direction of travel. Why on earth do they do this?

    Having said this, I got lured into watching a video yesterday when people in the street were being asked if a die was rolled 420 times how many 3s would you expect? The people getting it wrong included a teacher, allegedly. Innumeracy rules, apparently.

    It still blows my mind how many supposedly intelligent people think I am wrong when I tell them you get more pizza with one 18 inch pizza than with two 12 inch pizzas.
    Do you tell them to do the calculation and then laugh when they ask what's the calculation ?

    Too many 'educated' people seem to be proud of their lack of basic mathematical skills.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,210
    Nigelb said:

    Here's more recent polling that you won't hear Trump or Farage supporters mentioning.

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/692522/surge-concern-immigration-abated.aspx
    ...Americans have grown markedly more positive toward immigration over the past year, with the share wanting immigration reduced dropping from 55% in 2024 to 30% today. At the same time, a record-high 79% of U.S. adults say immigration is a good thing for the country.

    These shifts reverse a four-year trend of rising concern about immigration that began in 2021 and reflect changes among all major party groups...

    Part of the swing back is surely that Trump's hateful and dishonest rhetoric - "the worst of the worst.. rapists ... murderers" etc - is now so obviously at odds with the reality of ICE deportation targets.

    From that same poll:
    ..Almost 9 in 10 U.S. adults, 85%, favor a pathway to citizenship for immigrants who were brought to the U.S. illegally as children..

    Yet these are among the law abiding individuals seized for deportation, when they turn up for their regular immigration court monitoring.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,625
    algarkirk said:

    There will be a Reichstag fire process. The question is whether it will be one staged event, or a process, already begun, whereby when the trap closes on free and fair elections it won't be a surprise.

    What do people think the federal law enforcement in Washington DC is about? It's about enforcement in the non democratic future when the door closes and realisation dawns.

    Given they have figured out most of the rest in fine detail, be a surprise if they haven't covered the ending of deomcracy too.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,431
    edited August 15
    Nigelb said:

    Here's more recent polling that you won't hear Trump or Farage supporters mentioning.

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/692522/surge-concern-immigration-abated.aspx
    ...Americans have grown markedly more positive toward immigration over the past year, with the share wanting immigration reduced dropping from 55% in 2024 to 30% today. At the same time, a record-high 79% of U.S. adults say immigration is a good thing for the country.

    These shifts reverse a four-year trend of rising concern about immigration that began in 2021 and reflect changes among all major party groups...

    The paradox of the migration debate.

    Most people want the total numbers to fall, but don't want the numbers in most migration scenarios to fall. It's not quite "less migrants in theory but not in practice", but it's pretty close;

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/52704-is-there-public-support-for-large-scale-removals-of-migrants

    The way that most people square that circle is to massively overestimate the proportion of immigration that is irregular/illegal because the boats are so visible. From that YouGov link,

    Our research shows that almost half of Britons (47%) think there are more migrants staying in the UK illegally rather than legally, including fully a third of the public (32%) who think the illegal figure is “much higher”.

    As our American friends are currently discovering, anti-immigrant talk is much more popular than anti-immigrant action.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,210
    edited August 15
    Fishing said:

    On the Latino falling out with Trump, funnily enough I was talking to a Mexican-American small businessman here in Sarajevo yesterday. He himself would never have voted for Trump, but he had friends and relatives who had. He shook his head in retrospective disbelief at their stupidity. He himself also owns some Airbnbs in Florida and had noticed a collapse in demand from Europeans and Canadians.

    On why they were falling out with him, he hold me it's exactly as you'd expect - people don't like having their neighbourhoods raided by masked government thugs and their friends and relatives held and deported. The softening economy, the counter-productive trade policy and the trashing of America's diplomatic position worldwide are minor matters compared to that for his friends and relatives anyway.

    The polling strongly supports that anecdote.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,767
    What did Americans think would happen when half decided to vote for him again ! These polls annoy the hell out of me . Wtf did so many Latinos decide to vote for him in the first place .

    The overall approval rating does look much lower than other polls .
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,210
    The contrast with November 2024, as set out here, is remarkable.
    https://abcnews.go.com/538/immigration-swung-voters-color-trump/story?id=116016407
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,431
    Fishing said:

    On the Latino falling out with Trump, funnily enough I was talking to a Mexican-American small businessman here in Sarajevo yesterday. He himself would never have voted for Trump, but he had friends and relatives who had. He shook his head in retrospective disbelief at their stupidity. He himself also owns some Airbnbs in Florida and had noticed a collapse in demand from Europeans and Canadians.

    On why they were falling out with him, he hold me it's exactly as you'd expect - people don't like having their neighbourhoods raided by masked government thugs and their friends and relatives held and deported. The softening economy, the counter-productive trade policy and the trashing of America's diplomatic position worldwide are minor matters compared to that for his friends and relatives anyway.

    Everyone knows that you shouldn't say to voters "don't do that, it will go against your interests, you'd have to be an idiot to vote that way."

    Trouble is, most of us are idiots. At least when faced with complex issues outside our expertise. And sometimes even more so than that.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,823

    Fishing said:

    On the Latino falling out with Trump, funnily enough I was talking to a Mexican-American small businessman here in Sarajevo yesterday. He himself would never have voted for Trump, but he had friends and relatives who had. He shook his head in retrospective disbelief at their stupidity. He himself also owns some Airbnbs in Florida and had noticed a collapse in demand from Europeans and Canadians.

    On why they were falling out with him, he hold me it's exactly as you'd expect - people don't like having their neighbourhoods raided by masked government thugs and their friends and relatives held and deported. The softening economy, the counter-productive trade policy and the trashing of America's diplomatic position worldwide are minor matters compared to that for his friends and relatives anyway.

    Everyone knows that you shouldn't say to voters "don't do that, it will go against your interests, you'd have to be an idiot to vote that way."

    Trouble is, most of us are idiots. At least when faced with complex issues outside our expertise. And sometimes even more so than that.
    I heard some DMing advice that if you tell players about somewhere that's very dangerous they're more likely to go there.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 80,210
    nico67 said:

    What did Americans think would happen when half decided to vote for him again ! These polls annoy the hell out of me . Wtf did so many Latinos decide to vote for him in the first place .

    The overall approval rating does look much lower than other polls .

    People like the sound of radical change, and simple solutions. But they're not great at extrapolation what those things might actually mean.

    And an awful lot of people expect life for them to just carry on in the same vein, until it doesn't.

    And remember that Trump emphasised time and again that the targets of his cruelty would only be the worst of the worst.

    Is the immigration debate entirely dissimilar here ?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,136

    Fishing said:

    On the Latino falling out with Trump, funnily enough I was talking to a Mexican-American small businessman here in Sarajevo yesterday. He himself would never have voted for Trump, but he had friends and relatives who had. He shook his head in retrospective disbelief at their stupidity. He himself also owns some Airbnbs in Florida and had noticed a collapse in demand from Europeans and Canadians.

    On why they were falling out with him, he hold me it's exactly as you'd expect - people don't like having their neighbourhoods raided by masked government thugs and their friends and relatives held and deported. The softening economy, the counter-productive trade policy and the trashing of America's diplomatic position worldwide are minor matters compared to that for his friends and relatives anyway.

    Everyone knows that you shouldn't say to voters "don't do that, it will go against your interests, you'd have to be an idiot to vote that way."

    Trouble is, most of us are idiots. At least when faced with complex issues outside our expertise. And sometimes even more so than that.
    I heard some DMing advice that if you tell players about somewhere that's very dangerous they're more likely to go there.
    I always liked Pratchett's example. If you had a big red button and a sign saying "do not press, end of the world" he said the paint wouldn't have time to dry.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,823
    DavidL said:

    Fishing said:

    On the Latino falling out with Trump, funnily enough I was talking to a Mexican-American small businessman here in Sarajevo yesterday. He himself would never have voted for Trump, but he had friends and relatives who had. He shook his head in retrospective disbelief at their stupidity. He himself also owns some Airbnbs in Florida and had noticed a collapse in demand from Europeans and Canadians.

    On why they were falling out with him, he hold me it's exactly as you'd expect - people don't like having their neighbourhoods raided by masked government thugs and their friends and relatives held and deported. The softening economy, the counter-productive trade policy and the trashing of America's diplomatic position worldwide are minor matters compared to that for his friends and relatives anyway.

    Everyone knows that you shouldn't say to voters "don't do that, it will go against your interests, you'd have to be an idiot to vote that way."

    Trouble is, most of us are idiots. At least when faced with complex issues outside our expertise. And sometimes even more so than that.
    I heard some DMing advice that if you tell players about somewhere that's very dangerous they're more likely to go there.
    I always liked Pratchett's example. If you had a big red button and a sign saying "do not press, end of the world" he said the paint wouldn't have time to dry.
    Or God telling Eve: "Don't eat the fruit from that tree. That one, over there. Anyway, I'm going to leave you alone for quite some time."
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,136
    nico67 said:

    What did Americans think would happen when half decided to vote for him again ! These polls annoy the hell out of me . Wtf did so many Latinos decide to vote for him in the first place .

    The overall approval rating does look much lower than other polls .

    They didn't vote for him, they voted against Biden/Harris because they were frustrated with the government and life in general. Now, Trump is the government, however much he pretends not to be.

    We saw the same phenomenon in this country in 2024. Its a pretty tough time to be an incumbent almost anywhere.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,355
    Have we discussed Reform's request to place some of their friends in the House of Lords. And if they were able to, would Nadine give up on Boris and join Reform?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,732

    Nigelb said:

    Here's more recent polling that you won't hear Trump or Farage supporters mentioning.

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/692522/surge-concern-immigration-abated.aspx
    ...Americans have grown markedly more positive toward immigration over the past year, with the share wanting immigration reduced dropping from 55% in 2024 to 30% today. At the same time, a record-high 79% of U.S. adults say immigration is a good thing for the country.

    These shifts reverse a four-year trend of rising concern about immigration that began in 2021 and reflect changes among all major party groups...

    The paradox of the migration debate.

    Most people want the total numbers to fall, but don't want the numbers in most migration scenarios to fall. It's not quite "less migrants in theory but not in practice", but it's pretty close;

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/52704-is-there-public-support-for-large-scale-removals-of-migrants

    The way that most people square that circle is to massively overestimate the proportion of immigration that is irregular/illegal because the boats are so visible. From that YouGov link,

    Our research shows that almost half of Britons (47%) think there are more migrants staying in the UK illegally rather than legally, including fully a third of the public (32%) who think the illegal figure is “much higher”.

    As our American friends are currently discovering, anti-immigrant talk is much more popular than anti-immigrant action.
    The propensity of some people to believe stuff that simply isn't true never fails to astound me. It's not like it's hard to educate yourself on this stuff. The combination of cynical and malevolent politicians and gullible and stupid voters is a worrying one: we all know how this plays out in the worst case scenario and I for one don't want to be here if it does.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,179

    DavidL said:

    It still irritates me that the Americans insist on telling you that the difference between 47 and 52 is 5 (which might be classed as unnecessary information) and fail to tell us how these numbers compare with the last ones giving the direction of travel. Why on earth do they do this?

    Having said this, I got lured into watching a video yesterday when people in the street were being asked if a die was rolled 420 times how many 3s would you expect? The people getting it wrong included a teacher, allegedly. Innumeracy rules, apparently.

    It still blows my mind how many supposedly intelligent people think I am wrong when I tell them you get more pizza with one 18 inch pizza than with two 12 inch pizzas.
    Do you tell them to do the calculation and then laugh when they ask what's the calculation ?

    Too many 'educated' people seem to be proud of their lack of basic mathematical skills.
    I am no good at hard maths but can navigate everyday numerical reality in my head, (and keep noticing that a lot of younger people can't) but I would not be able to tell you from my head at what proportion of diameter increase the area of a pizza doubles.

    Related to this is that people are routinely amazed that others don't know at all what they know a lot about. (Like most people don't know that Sir K is the son of a toolmaker; couldn't name the four gospels; don't know whether Alfred the Great was before or after Henry III).
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,867
    I feel mean laughing but the Ukrainian lady they are interviewing on R4 sounds exactly like Alan Patridge’s girlfriend and I can’t take her very tragic story seriously.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,145
    FPT:
    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    I'm in Sarajevo now.

    I just saw the place where Franz Ferdinand was shot.

    Terrible to think of all the suffering that bullet unleashed, including the damage to our nation and Empire following our disastrous decision to intervene (though it achieved the almost impossible in shutting the Irish up for eighteen months).

    It would be nice to think mankind has learned it lessons, but looking at the world now clearly lots haven't.

    And of course people are amazing at taking different, sometimes opposite, lessons from the same event.

    The British Empire reached its territorial zenith after WW1.
    Nazi Germany peaked in about October 1942 but it’s fate was sealed by then
    "The British built the most successful, advanced, and sophisticated civilization in history and then just decided to light it all on fire for no particular reason.

    I will never understand."

    https://x.com/Anthony__Koch/status/1955725353587986498

    Not entirely true, but true enough to hurt very deeply
    Who is this Koch guy, and what's he on? Your quotees are often several geese short of a gaggle.

    I can't decide if he has discovered irony, or is just a putz. US applications for UK citizenship are at an all time high.

  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,732
    Nigelb said:

    nico67 said:

    What did Americans think would happen when half decided to vote for him again ! These polls annoy the hell out of me . Wtf did so many Latinos decide to vote for him in the first place .

    The overall approval rating does look much lower than other polls .

    People like the sound of radical change, and simple solutions. But they're not great at extrapolation what those things might actually mean.

    And an awful lot of people expect life for them to just carry on in the same vein, until it doesn't.

    And remember that Trump emphasised time and again that the targets of his cruelty would only be the worst of the worst.

    Is the immigration debate entirely dissimilar here ?
    I've lived in the US and the UK and anti immigrant sentiment is without a doubt worse here. We've just not yet elected a government willing to act on it. If Farage got in we would see some really ugly stuff happening, accompanied by civil unrest.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,625
    edited August 15

    Nigelb said:

    nico67 said:

    What did Americans think would happen when half decided to vote for him again ! These polls annoy the hell out of me . Wtf did so many Latinos decide to vote for him in the first place .

    The overall approval rating does look much lower than other polls .

    People like the sound of radical change, and simple solutions. But they're not great at extrapolation what those things might actually mean.

    And an awful lot of people expect life for them to just carry on in the same vein, until it doesn't.

    And remember that Trump emphasised time and again that the targets of his cruelty would only be the worst of the worst.

    Is the immigration debate entirely dissimilar here ?
    I've lived in the US and the UK and anti immigrant sentiment is without a doubt worse here. We've just not yet elected a government willing to act on it. If Farage got in we would see some really ugly stuff happening, accompanied by civil unrest.
    Farage didn't get in - and we had civil unrest. From a few. Most people were repulsed.
  • scampi25scampi25 Posts: 216

    Nigelb said:

    Here's more recent polling that you won't hear Trump or Farage supporters mentioning.

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/692522/surge-concern-immigration-abated.aspx
    ...Americans have grown markedly more positive toward immigration over the past year, with the share wanting immigration reduced dropping from 55% in 2024 to 30% today. At the same time, a record-high 79% of U.S. adults say immigration is a good thing for the country.

    These shifts reverse a four-year trend of rising concern about immigration that began in 2021 and reflect changes among all major party groups...

    The paradox of the migration debate.

    Most people want the total numbers to fall, but don't want the numbers in most migration scenarios to fall. It's not quite "less migrants in theory but not in practice", but it's pretty close;

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/52704-is-there-public-support-for-large-scale-removals-of-migrants

    The way that most people square that circle is to massively overestimate the proportion of immigration that is irregular/illegal because the boats are so visible. From that YouGov link,

    Our research shows that almost half of Britons (47%) think there are more migrants staying in the UK illegally rather than legally, including fully a third of the public (32%) who think the illegal figure is “much higher”.

    As our American friends are currently discovering, anti-immigrant talk is much more popular than anti-immigrant action.
    The propensity of some people to believe stuff that simply isn't true never fails to astound me. It's not like it's hard to educate yourself on this stuff. The combination of cynical and malevolent politicians and gullible and stupid voters is a worrying one: we all know how this plays out in the worst case scenario and I for one don't want to be here if it does.
    Your arrogance and sense of superiority does little for your argument. A little humble pie??
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,558
    To be fair to Trump most GOP presidential candidates with the exception of him and George W Bush have polled less than 40% with Hispanics. Though his decline with the Hispanic vote does make Florida and even Texas more vulnerable to the Democrats.

    Only 47% approval amongst whites is also a concern, Trump got 57% of the white vote last year
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,108
    Battlebus said:

    Have we discussed Reform's request to place some of their friends in the House of Lords. And if they were able to, would Nadine give up on Boris and join Reform?

    They can "request" whatever they like, it's not in their fief or power unless existing Peers set up a Reform group within the House of Lords. Nothing wrong with that if they chose so to do but it's the usual bleating from Reform who think because they are the top of the opinion polls, they are entitled to representation. That's not how politics works.

    We've also seen a concerted anti-London push from Reform in recent days with Reform councillors in neighbouring authorities advocating "re-uniting" London Boroughs with their pre-1965 counties so Havering with Essex, Bromley with Kent etc. I suppose there might be some vague nostalgia for that as there might be for Yugoslavia or Prussia but most residents are, I suspect, for all they might loathe Sadiq Khan currently, happier within London with their 60+ free travel (which I know is supported by everyone on here).
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,347
    edited August 15

    DavidL said:

    It still irritates me that the Americans insist on telling you that the difference between 47 and 52 is 5 (which might be classed as unnecessary information) and fail to tell us how these numbers compare with the last ones giving the direction of travel. Why on earth do they do this?

    Having said this, I got lured into watching a video yesterday when people in the street were being asked if a die was rolled 420 times how many 3s would you expect? The people getting it wrong included a teacher, allegedly. Innumeracy rules, apparently.

    It still blows my mind how many supposedly intelligent people think I am wrong when I tell them you get more pizza with one 18 inch pizza than with two 12 inch pizzas.
    Depends how thick the bases are.

    If the same quantity of dough is used but is stretched more with an 18 incher then you would be better to go for two 12 inchers.

    This is a volume of a cylinder question rather than an area of a circle question.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 29,145

    algarkirk said:

    There will be a Reichstag fire process. The question is whether it will be one staged event, or a process, already begun, whereby when the trap closes on free and fair elections it won't be a surprise.

    What do people think the federal law enforcement in Washington DC is about? It's about enforcement in the non democratic future when the door closes and realisation dawns.

    Given they have figured out most of the rest in fine detail, be a surprise if they haven't covered the ending of deomcracy too.
    Quite a good podcast around Trump, Washington and Alaska from Katty Kay and Scaramouche, in cycnical mode:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LI6b_nt0w0

  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,347
    DavidL said:

    It still irritates me that the Americans insist on telling you that the difference between 47 and 52 is 5 (which might be classed as unnecessary information) and fail to tell us how these numbers compare with the last ones giving the direction of travel. Why on earth do they do this?

    Having said this, I got lured into watching a video yesterday when people in the street were being asked if a die was rolled 420 times how many 3s would you expect? The people getting it wrong included a teacher, allegedly. Innumeracy rules, apparently.

    I wonder what proportion of Labour MPs could answer this?
  • eekeek Posts: 30,917
    edited August 15
    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    It still irritates me that the Americans insist on telling you that the difference between 47 and 52 is 5 (which might be classed as unnecessary information) and fail to tell us how these numbers compare with the last ones giving the direction of travel. Why on earth do they do this?

    Having said this, I got lured into watching a video yesterday when people in the street were being asked if a die was rolled 420 times how many 3s would you expect? The people getting it wrong included a teacher, allegedly. Innumeracy rules, apparently.

    It still blows my mind how many supposedly intelligent people think I am wrong when I tell them you get more pizza with one 18 inch pizza than with two 12 inch pizzas.
    Depends how thick the bases are.

    If the same quantity of dough is used but is stretched more with an 18 incher then you would be better to go for two 12 inchers.

    This is a volume of a cylinder question rather than an area of a circle question.
    That covers the dough but it doesn’t reflect the amount of topping you receive, for the pizza maker to not look cheap it’s going to require more ham and pineapple on the 18 inch than on the 2 12 inches

    Also I like a thin base and the thinner the better
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 6,307

    DavidL said:

    It still irritates me that the Americans insist on telling you that the difference between 47 and 52 is 5 (which might be classed as unnecessary information) and fail to tell us how these numbers compare with the last ones giving the direction of travel. Why on earth do they do this?

    Having said this, I got lured into watching a video yesterday when people in the street were being asked if a die was rolled 420 times how many 3s would you expect? The people getting it wrong included a teacher, allegedly. Innumeracy rules, apparently.

    It still blows my mind how many supposedly intelligent people think I am wrong when I tell them you get more pizza with one 18 inch pizza than with two 12 inch pizzas.
    Do you tell them to do the calculation and then laugh when they ask what's the calculation ?

    Too many 'educated' people seem to be proud of their lack of basic mathematical skills.
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    It still irritates me that the Americans insist on telling you that the difference between 47 and 52 is 5 (which might be classed as unnecessary information) and fail to tell us how these numbers compare with the last ones giving the direction of travel. Why on earth do they do this?

    Having said this, I got lured into watching a video yesterday when people in the street were being asked if a die was rolled 420 times how many 3s would you expect? The people getting it wrong included a teacher, allegedly. Innumeracy rules, apparently.

    It still blows my mind how many supposedly intelligent people think I am wrong when I tell them you get more pizza with one 18 inch pizza than with two 12 inch pizzas.
    Maybe you need to use pies in your example.
    They’ll be really confused when you tell them the size of a pizza is related to pi(e).
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,179
    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    It still irritates me that the Americans insist on telling you that the difference between 47 and 52 is 5 (which might be classed as unnecessary information) and fail to tell us how these numbers compare with the last ones giving the direction of travel. Why on earth do they do this?

    Having said this, I got lured into watching a video yesterday when people in the street were being asked if a die was rolled 420 times how many 3s would you expect? The people getting it wrong included a teacher, allegedly. Innumeracy rules, apparently.

    It still blows my mind how many supposedly intelligent people think I am wrong when I tell them you get more pizza with one 18 inch pizza than with two 12 inch pizzas.
    Depends how thick the bases are.

    If the same quantity of dough is used but is stretched more with an 18 incher then you would be better to go for two 12 inchers.

    This is a volume of a cylinder question rather than an area of a circle question.
    This complicates what was a fairly simple question, though I suppose doing this is PBs speciality. Is there a formula for volume which takes account of the pineapple on the pizza or does the calculation assume a world which is both morally perfect and perfect in shape?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,136
    eek said:

    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    It still irritates me that the Americans insist on telling you that the difference between 47 and 52 is 5 (which might be classed as unnecessary information) and fail to tell us how these numbers compare with the last ones giving the direction of travel. Why on earth do they do this?

    Having said this, I got lured into watching a video yesterday when people in the street were being asked if a die was rolled 420 times how many 3s would you expect? The people getting it wrong included a teacher, allegedly. Innumeracy rules, apparently.

    It still blows my mind how many supposedly intelligent people think I am wrong when I tell them you get more pizza with one 18 inch pizza than with two 12 inch pizzas.
    Depends how thick the bases are.

    If the same quantity of dough is used but is stretched more with an 18 incher then you would be better to go for two 12 inchers.

    This is a volume of a cylinder question rather than an area of a circle question.
    That covers the dough but it doesn’t reflect the amount of topping you receive, for the pizza maker to not look cheap it’s going to require more ham and pineapple on the 18 inch than on the 2 12 inches

    Also I like a thin base and the thinner the better
    And @TSE will always want that extra pineapple.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,732
    scampi25 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Here's more recent polling that you won't hear Trump or Farage supporters mentioning.

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/692522/surge-concern-immigration-abated.aspx
    ...Americans have grown markedly more positive toward immigration over the past year, with the share wanting immigration reduced dropping from 55% in 2024 to 30% today. At the same time, a record-high 79% of U.S. adults say immigration is a good thing for the country.

    These shifts reverse a four-year trend of rising concern about immigration that began in 2021 and reflect changes among all major party groups...

    The paradox of the migration debate.

    Most people want the total numbers to fall, but don't want the numbers in most migration scenarios to fall. It's not quite "less migrants in theory but not in practice", but it's pretty close;

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/52704-is-there-public-support-for-large-scale-removals-of-migrants

    The way that most people square that circle is to massively overestimate the proportion of immigration that is irregular/illegal because the boats are so visible. From that YouGov link,

    Our research shows that almost half of Britons (47%) think there are more migrants staying in the UK illegally rather than legally, including fully a third of the public (32%) who think the illegal figure is “much higher”.

    As our American friends are currently discovering, anti-immigrant talk is much more popular than anti-immigrant action.
    The propensity of some people to believe stuff that simply isn't true never fails to astound me. It's not like it's hard to educate yourself on this stuff. The combination of cynical and malevolent politicians and gullible and stupid voters is a worrying one: we all know how this plays out in the worst case scenario and I for one don't want to be here if it does.
    Your arrogance and sense of superiority does little for your argument. A little humble pie??
    If I believed myself to be superior I would be less surprised at how frequently people believe stuff that is demonstrably false. I have an optimist's faith in human intelligence and am constantly disappointed.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,398
    FPT hotel bathrooms... took so long to compile I got new threaded.

    Brilliant! This is a thread I can really lean into!
    In no particular order...

    Boutique hotel in B A being newly refurbed, I snuck into the new master suite to grab a photo. By the patio doors to the terrace was the bathroom suite, half-height glass so you could look out from the throne, on the outside of the bathroom partition wall was a lone urinal.

    Business hotel in Vietnam, glass walled bath and wet room in the centre of the room, toilet was seperate in a discreet corner with glass door and a phone. As a friend said "so you can ring down for more bog roll".

    Hotel in Canada, double bedroom with large spa bath afterthought(?). Standard layout but the bathroom partition had been partly removed for the bath to extend into the room rendering no part of the bathroom private.

    Honourable mentions

    Hotel bar in Finland, gents toilet. Urinals on the wall and in splendid, completely public, isolation in the centre of the room a freestanding toilet.

    Restaurant gents. Kz, a double cubicle, one door and a small half partition separating two toilets. Decorated in a very red tartan.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,606
    algarkirk said:

    DavidL said:

    It still irritates me that the Americans insist on telling you that the difference between 47 and 52 is 5 (which might be classed as unnecessary information) and fail to tell us how these numbers compare with the last ones giving the direction of travel. Why on earth do they do this?

    Having said this, I got lured into watching a video yesterday when people in the street were being asked if a die was rolled 420 times how many 3s would you expect? The people getting it wrong included a teacher, allegedly. Innumeracy rules, apparently.

    It still blows my mind how many supposedly intelligent people think I am wrong when I tell them you get more pizza with one 18 inch pizza than with two 12 inch pizzas.
    Do you tell them to do the calculation and then laugh when they ask what's the calculation ?

    Too many 'educated' people seem to be proud of their lack of basic mathematical skills.
    I am no good at hard maths but can navigate everyday numerical reality in my head, (and keep noticing that a lot of younger people can't) but I would not be able to tell you from my head at what proportion of diameter increase the area of a pizza doubles.

    Related to this is that people are routinely amazed that others don't know at all what they know a lot about. (Like most people don't know that Sir K is the son of a toolmaker; couldn't name the four gospels; don't know whether Alfred the Great was before or after Henry III).
    You don't need to remember any of the formulae about the areas of circles; the truth of TSE's proposition arises simply from increasing both the height and the width of the pizza by 50%, which is multiplying by 1.5 (from 12 inch to 18 inch), hence the area increases by 1.5x1.5 = 2.25, which is more than double.

    Simple things can fool people who don't think clearly; for example, during my recent absence our Sunil posted a photo of central London, and one of the responses said "it looks like you are significantly ABOVE the top of the Shard, which is impossible in a London building". Yet in the photo the top of the Shard was very clearly above the horizon; it ought to have taken just a moment's thought to realise that the photographer is always LOWER than any object that is above a level horizon in a photo.


  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,136
    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    It still irritates me that the Americans insist on telling you that the difference between 47 and 52 is 5 (which might be classed as unnecessary information) and fail to tell us how these numbers compare with the last ones giving the direction of travel. Why on earth do they do this?

    Having said this, I got lured into watching a video yesterday when people in the street were being asked if a die was rolled 420 times how many 3s would you expect? The people getting it wrong included a teacher, allegedly. Innumeracy rules, apparently.

    I wonder what proportion of Labour MPs could answer this?
    I wonder what proportion of all MPs could answer this. I don't think that Labour has any particular sinecure on either innumeracy or wishful thinking.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,917
    edited August 15
    stodge said:

    Battlebus said:

    Have we discussed Reform's request to place some of their friends in the House of Lords. And if they were able to, would Nadine give up on Boris and join Reform?

    They can "request" whatever they like, it's not in their fief or power unless existing Peers set up a Reform group within the House of Lords. Nothing wrong with that if they chose so to do but it's the usual bleating from Reform who think because they are the top of the opinion polls, they are entitled to representation. That's not how politics works.

    We've also seen a concerted anti-London push from Reform in recent days with Reform councillors in neighbouring authorities advocating "re-uniting" London Boroughs with their pre-1965 counties so Havering with Essex, Bromley with Kent etc. I suppose there might be some vague nostalgia for that as there might be for Yugoslavia or Prussia but most residents are, I suspect, for all they might loathe Sadiq Khan currently, happier within London with their 60+ free travel (which I know is supported by everyone on here).
    So it would save money if Havering merged with Essex and Bromley merged with Kent - with the 60+ reform voter voting to remove their benefit.

    As someone subjected to Zone 9 (I.e. out of London tfl fares) for 35 years it would also allow TfL to charge significantly more for their tickets in those boroughs

    But it’s also the same on Teesside with anyone south of the Tees desperate to claim they are really in North Yorkshire
  • scampi25scampi25 Posts: 216

    scampi25 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Here's more recent polling that you won't hear Trump or Farage supporters mentioning.

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/692522/surge-concern-immigration-abated.aspx
    ...Americans have grown markedly more positive toward immigration over the past year, with the share wanting immigration reduced dropping from 55% in 2024 to 30% today. At the same time, a record-high 79% of U.S. adults say immigration is a good thing for the country.

    These shifts reverse a four-year trend of rising concern about immigration that began in 2021 and reflect changes among all major party groups...

    The paradox of the migration debate.

    Most people want the total numbers to fall, but don't want the numbers in most migration scenarios to fall. It's not quite "less migrants in theory but not in practice", but it's pretty close;

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/52704-is-there-public-support-for-large-scale-removals-of-migrants

    The way that most people square that circle is to massively overestimate the proportion of immigration that is irregular/illegal because the boats are so visible. From that YouGov link,

    Our research shows that almost half of Britons (47%) think there are more migrants staying in the UK illegally rather than legally, including fully a third of the public (32%) who think the illegal figure is “much higher”.

    As our American friends are currently discovering, anti-immigrant talk is much more popular than anti-immigrant action.
    The propensity of some people to believe stuff that simply isn't true never fails to astound me. It's not like it's hard to educate yourself on this stuff. The combination of cynical and malevolent politicians and gullible and stupid voters is a worrying one: we all know how this plays out in the worst case scenario and I for one don't want to be here if it does.
    Your arrogance and sense of superiority does little for your argument. A little humble pie??
    If I believed myself to be superior I would be less surprised at how frequently people believe stuff that is demonstrably false. I have an optimist's faith in human intelligence and am constantly disappointed.
    Maybe you're wrong.😱😱😱
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,854
    edited August 15
    What the rest of the world sees is an extremely unpleasant publicity seeker on an ego trip. What is rest of the world are not aware of is that this view is shared by a large majority of Americans.. So polls like this are quite heart warming and might help rehabillitate Americans whose esteem in the world has hit an all time low.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,558
    stodge said:

    Battlebus said:

    Have we discussed Reform's request to place some of their friends in the House of Lords. And if they were able to, would Nadine give up on Boris and join Reform?

    They can "request" whatever they like, it's not in their fief or power unless existing Peers set up a Reform group within the House of Lords. Nothing wrong with that if they chose so to do but it's the usual bleating from Reform who think because they are the top of the opinion polls, they are entitled to representation. That's not how politics works.

    We've also seen a concerted anti-London push from Reform in recent days with Reform councillors in neighbouring authorities advocating "re-uniting" London Boroughs with their pre-1965 counties so Havering with Essex, Bromley with Kent etc. I suppose there might be some vague nostalgia for that as there might be for Yugoslavia or Prussia but most residents are, I suspect, for all they might loathe Sadiq Khan currently, happier within London with their 60+ free travel (which I know is supported by everyone on here).
    Plus Farage wants an elected upper house anyway and voted for the LD amendment for an elected upper house on the government's bill to remove hereditary peers remaining in the Lords
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 6,307
    IanB2 said:

    algarkirk said:

    DavidL said:

    It still irritates me that the Americans insist on telling you that the difference between 47 and 52 is 5 (which might be classed as unnecessary information) and fail to tell us how these numbers compare with the last ones giving the direction of travel. Why on earth do they do this?

    Having said this, I got lured into watching a video yesterday when people in the street were being asked if a die was rolled 420 times how many 3s would you expect? The people getting it wrong included a teacher, allegedly. Innumeracy rules, apparently.

    It still blows my mind how many supposedly intelligent people think I am wrong when I tell them you get more pizza with one 18 inch pizza than with two 12 inch pizzas.
    Do you tell them to do the calculation and then laugh when they ask what's the calculation ?

    Too many 'educated' people seem to be proud of their lack of basic mathematical skills.
    I am no good at hard maths but can navigate everyday numerical reality in my head, (and keep noticing that a lot of younger people can't) but I would not be able to tell you from my head at what proportion of diameter increase the area of a pizza doubles.

    Related to this is that people are routinely amazed that others don't know at all what they know a lot about. (Like most people don't know that Sir K is the son of a toolmaker; couldn't name the four gospels; don't know whether Alfred the Great was before or after Henry III).
    You don't need to remember any of the formulae about the areas of circles; the truth of TSE's proposition arises simply from increasing both the height and the width of the pizza by 50%, which is multiplying by 1.5 (from 12 inch to 18 inch), hence the area increases by 1.5x1.5 = 2.25, which is more than double.

    Simple things can fool people who don't think clearly; for example, during my recent absence our Sunil posted a photo of central London, and one of the responses said "it looks like you are significantly ABOVE the top of the Shard, which is impossible in a London building". Yet in the photo the top of the Shard was very clearly above the horizon; it ought to have taken just a moment's thought to realise that the photographer is always LOWER than any object that is above a level horizon in a photo.


    That’s what happens when you don’t include a dog for scale.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,527
    eek said:

    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    It still irritates me that the Americans insist on telling you that the difference between 47 and 52 is 5 (which might be classed as unnecessary information) and fail to tell us how these numbers compare with the last ones giving the direction of travel. Why on earth do they do this?

    Having said this, I got lured into watching a video yesterday when people in the street were being asked if a die was rolled 420 times how many 3s would you expect? The people getting it wrong included a teacher, allegedly. Innumeracy rules, apparently.

    It still blows my mind how many supposedly intelligent people think I am wrong when I tell them you get more pizza with one 18 inch pizza than with two 12 inch pizzas.
    Depends how thick the bases are.

    If the same quantity of dough is used but is stretched more with an 18 incher then you would be better to go for two 12 inchers.

    This is a volume of a cylinder question rather than an area of a circle question.
    That covers the dough but it doesn’t reflect the amount of topping you receive, for the pizza maker to not look cheap it’s going to require more ham and pineapple on the 18 inch than on the 2 12 inches

    Also I like a thin base and the thinner the better
    So you are confirming that 18" pizzas provide optimal amounts of pineapple compared to 2x12" pizzas. Extra pineapple and hold the ham please.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,732
    scampi25 said:

    scampi25 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Here's more recent polling that you won't hear Trump or Farage supporters mentioning.

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/692522/surge-concern-immigration-abated.aspx
    ...Americans have grown markedly more positive toward immigration over the past year, with the share wanting immigration reduced dropping from 55% in 2024 to 30% today. At the same time, a record-high 79% of U.S. adults say immigration is a good thing for the country.

    These shifts reverse a four-year trend of rising concern about immigration that began in 2021 and reflect changes among all major party groups...

    The paradox of the migration debate.

    Most people want the total numbers to fall, but don't want the numbers in most migration scenarios to fall. It's not quite "less migrants in theory but not in practice", but it's pretty close;

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/52704-is-there-public-support-for-large-scale-removals-of-migrants

    The way that most people square that circle is to massively overestimate the proportion of immigration that is irregular/illegal because the boats are so visible. From that YouGov link,

    Our research shows that almost half of Britons (47%) think there are more migrants staying in the UK illegally rather than legally, including fully a third of the public (32%) who think the illegal figure is “much higher”.

    As our American friends are currently discovering, anti-immigrant talk is much more popular than anti-immigrant action.
    The propensity of some people to believe stuff that simply isn't true never fails to astound me. It's not like it's hard to educate yourself on this stuff. The combination of cynical and malevolent politicians and gullible and stupid voters is a worrying one: we all know how this plays out in the worst case scenario and I for one don't want to be here if it does.
    Your arrogance and sense of superiority does little for your argument. A little humble pie??
    If I believed myself to be superior I would be less surprised at how frequently people believe stuff that is demonstrably false. I have an optimist's faith in human intelligence and am constantly disappointed.
    Maybe you're wrong.😱😱😱
    Do you think illegal immigration is higher than legal immigration, and if so what is your evidence? (This is the example we are talking about).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,860
    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    It still irritates me that the Americans insist on telling you that the difference between 47 and 52 is 5 (which might be classed as unnecessary information) and fail to tell us how these numbers compare with the last ones giving the direction of travel. Why on earth do they do this?

    Having said this, I got lured into watching a video yesterday when people in the street were being asked if a die was rolled 420 times how many 3s would you expect? The people getting it wrong included a teacher, allegedly. Innumeracy rules, apparently.

    It still blows my mind how many supposedly intelligent people think I am wrong when I tell them you get more pizza with one 18 inch pizza than with two 12 inch pizzas.
    Depends how thick the bases are.

    If the same quantity of dough is used but is stretched more with an 18 incher then you would be better to go for two 12 inchers.

    This is a volume of a cylinder question rather than an area of a circle question.
    Trump’s base appears to be less than solid, but a lot of them are remarkably thick.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,431
    stodge said:

    Battlebus said:

    Have we discussed Reform's request to place some of their friends in the House of Lords. And if they were able to, would Nadine give up on Boris and join Reform?

    They can "request" whatever they like, it's not in their fief or power unless existing Peers set up a Reform group within the House of Lords. Nothing wrong with that if they chose so to do but it's the usual bleating from Reform who think because they are the top of the opinion polls, they are entitled to representation. That's not how politics works.

    We've also seen a concerted anti-London push from Reform in recent days with Reform councillors in neighbouring authorities advocating "re-uniting" London Boroughs with their pre-1965 counties so Havering with Essex, Bromley with Kent etc. I suppose there might be some vague nostalgia for that as there might be for Yugoslavia or Prussia but most residents are, I suspect, for all they might loathe Sadiq Khan currently, happier within London with their 60+ free travel (which I know is supported by everyone on here).
    Only nostalgia for the very old- Greater London was set up sixty years ago. Some of it is "Surrey/Kent/Essex, actually", it's part of some people's identity that they (or their family) moved out of London. Some of it is the natural human instinct to want an area they can control; the right win comfortably in Havering but don't have a chance in London as a whole.

    As for the travel thing, Hexit campaigners usually promise that will be kept. Somehow.

    Incidentally, Andrew Rosindell's latest local campaign is to oppose the formation of a massive borough of East London, taking in all of historic Essex in Greater London, with a massive permanent Labour majority bullying plucky little Romford. That's nonsense, isn't it?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,692
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,854
    edited August 15
    Steady on....
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,179
    IanB2 said:

    algarkirk said:

    DavidL said:

    It still irritates me that the Americans insist on telling you that the difference between 47 and 52 is 5 (which might be classed as unnecessary information) and fail to tell us how these numbers compare with the last ones giving the direction of travel. Why on earth do they do this?

    Having said this, I got lured into watching a video yesterday when people in the street were being asked if a die was rolled 420 times how many 3s would you expect? The people getting it wrong included a teacher, allegedly. Innumeracy rules, apparently.

    It still blows my mind how many supposedly intelligent people think I am wrong when I tell them you get more pizza with one 18 inch pizza than with two 12 inch pizzas.
    Do you tell them to do the calculation and then laugh when they ask what's the calculation ?

    Too many 'educated' people seem to be proud of their lack of basic mathematical skills.
    I am no good at hard maths but can navigate everyday numerical reality in my head, (and keep noticing that a lot of younger people can't) but I would not be able to tell you from my head at what proportion of diameter increase the area of a pizza doubles.

    Related to this is that people are routinely amazed that others don't know at all what they know a lot about. (Like most people don't know that Sir K is the son of a toolmaker; couldn't name the four gospels; don't know whether Alfred the Great was before or after Henry III).
    You don't need to remember any of the formulae about the areas of circles; the truth of TSE's proposition arises simply from increasing both the height and the width of the pizza by 50%, which is multiplying by 1.5 (from 12 inch to 18 inch), hence the area increases by 1.5x1.5 = 2.25, which is more than double.

    Simple things can fool people who don't think clearly; for example, during my recent absence our Sunil posted a photo of central London, and one of the responses said "it looks like you are significantly ABOVE the top of the Shard, which is impossible in a London building". Yet in the photo the top of the Shard was very clearly above the horizon; it ought to have taken just a moment's thought to realise that the photographer is always LOWER than any object that is above a level horizon in a photo.


    Thank you.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,692
    Just like having a picture of a Nazi super weapon on your wall, wearing a USSR sweatshirt should be totally unconcerning.

    Yaroslav Trofimov
    @yarotrof
    38m
    Lavrov showed up in Alaska wearing a USSR sweatshirt. Very reassuring to at least 14 of Russia’s neighbors.

    https://x.com/yarotrof/status/1956257440091267365
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,396

    Just like having a picture of a Nazi super weapon on your wall, wearing a USSR sweatshirt should be totally unconcerning.

    Yaroslav Trofimov
    @yarotrof
    38m
    Lavrov showed up in Alaska wearing a USSR sweatshirt. Very reassuring to at least 14 of Russia’s neighbors.

    https://x.com/yarotrof/status/1956257440091267365

    The entire Putin schtick is that the fall of the USSR was a disaster and that he is rebuilding the country to that glory.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,772
    DavidL said:

    It still irritates me that the Americans insist on telling you that the difference between 47 and 52 is 5 (which might be classed as unnecessary information) and fail to tell us how these numbers compare with the last ones giving the direction of travel. Why on earth do they do this?

    Having said this, I got lured into watching a video yesterday when people in the street were being asked if a die was rolled 420 times how many 3s would you expect? The people getting it wrong included a teacher, allegedly. Innumeracy rules, apparently.

    Pedant alert:

    The difference (scalar) between 47 and 52 is 5. If you want to include the direction of travel you need to ask for the displacement, the vector equivalent.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,854

    Nigelb said:

    nico67 said:

    What did Americans think would happen when half decided to vote for him again ! These polls annoy the hell out of me . Wtf did so many Latinos decide to vote for him in the first place .

    The overall approval rating does look much lower than other polls .

    People like the sound of radical change, and simple solutions. But they're not great at extrapolation what those things might actually mean.

    And an awful lot of people expect life for them to just carry on in the same vein, until it doesn't.

    And remember that Trump emphasised time and again that the targets of his cruelty would only be the worst of the worst.

    Is the immigration debate entirely dissimilar here ?
    I've lived in the US and the UK and anti immigrant sentiment is without a doubt worse here. We've just not yet elected a government willing to act on it. If Farage got in we would see some really ugly stuff happening, accompanied by civil unrest.
    It is the obvious truth in this statement that helps convince me it won't happen. The really ugly mob in the UK will get the same treatment they always do in France.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,692

    Just like having a picture of a Nazi super weapon on your wall, wearing a USSR sweatshirt should be totally unconcerning.

    Yaroslav Trofimov
    @yarotrof
    38m
    Lavrov showed up in Alaska wearing a USSR sweatshirt. Very reassuring to at least 14 of Russia’s neighbors.

    https://x.com/yarotrof/status/1956257440091267365

    The entire Putin schtick is that the fall of the USSR was a disaster and that he is rebuilding the country to that glory.
    Yebbut even these unsubtle lads tend not to say the quiet part out loud, not to the rest of world anyway.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,136

    DavidL said:

    It still irritates me that the Americans insist on telling you that the difference between 47 and 52 is 5 (which might be classed as unnecessary information) and fail to tell us how these numbers compare with the last ones giving the direction of travel. Why on earth do they do this?

    Having said this, I got lured into watching a video yesterday when people in the street were being asked if a die was rolled 420 times how many 3s would you expect? The people getting it wrong included a teacher, allegedly. Innumeracy rules, apparently.

    Pedant alert:

    The difference (scalar) between 47 and 52 is 5. If you want to include the direction of travel you need to ask for the displacement, the vector equivalent.
    Not on a linear scale. All I want to know was it -3 the last time when it is -5 now. That would be useful information. Is the movement outwith the margin of error?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,108
    eek said:

    stodge said:

    Battlebus said:

    Have we discussed Reform's request to place some of their friends in the House of Lords. And if they were able to, would Nadine give up on Boris and join Reform?

    They can "request" whatever they like, it's not in their fief or power unless existing Peers set up a Reform group within the House of Lords. Nothing wrong with that if they chose so to do but it's the usual bleating from Reform who think because they are the top of the opinion polls, they are entitled to representation. That's not how politics works.

    We've also seen a concerted anti-London push from Reform in recent days with Reform councillors in neighbouring authorities advocating "re-uniting" London Boroughs with their pre-1965 counties so Havering with Essex, Bromley with Kent etc. I suppose there might be some vague nostalgia for that as there might be for Yugoslavia or Prussia but most residents are, I suspect, for all they might loathe Sadiq Khan currently, happier within London with their 60+ free travel (which I know is supported by everyone on here).
    So it would save money if Havering merged with Essex and Bromley merged with Kent - with the 60+ reform voter voting to remove their benefit.

    As someone subjected to Zone 9 (I.e. out of London tfl fares) for 35 years it would also allow TfL to charge significantly more for their tickets in those boroughs

    But it’s also the same on Teesside with anyone south of the Tees desperate to claim they are really in North Yorkshire
    For a party which strongly relies on older voters (not to the extent the Conservatives do but still) it would seem counter-intuitive for turkeys to vote for Christmas. Are we assuming Reform will allow the poor citizens any choice in this or will they just enact this through primary legislation and leave everyone else to clear up the mess? As we're seeing with the current round of re-organisation, these exercises involve a lot of spending before any meaningful benefit is realised.

    Just to clarify your understanding of how it works, boundaries have little or nothing to do with the 60+ Oystercard and Freedom pass. It's provided by Transport for London and can be used on TfL services whether those services are running inside Greater London or not. As an example, if I want to go to Sandown Park for an afternoon's racing and I don't want to pay for travel, I take the train to Surbiton and then catch the K3 bus (a TfL service) to Esher High Street and then walk to the track. I could pay to take the train to Esher but with my punting prowess, I need all the cash I can spare.

    IF Bromley ceased to be a London Borough but bus services (including the Croydon Tramlink and Overground rail) were still provided by Transport for London, 60+ Oyster cards and Freedom passes would still be valid on those services and people from other parts of London could still use them for nothing. The locals would have to pay.

    As usual with Reform "policies", it's incoherent and doesn't reflect the reality of how people live but apparently 30% of us want these clowns in Government. I suppose the one difference is some genuinely thought Boris Johnson and Keir Starmer might bring about some positive change and improve people's lives and I can appreciate that sense of disappointment. No one will be under any illusions with Reform.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,396

    Just like having a picture of a Nazi super weapon on your wall, wearing a USSR sweatshirt should be totally unconcerning.

    Yaroslav Trofimov
    @yarotrof
    38m
    Lavrov showed up in Alaska wearing a USSR sweatshirt. Very reassuring to at least 14 of Russia’s neighbors.

    https://x.com/yarotrof/status/1956257440091267365

    The entire Putin schtick is that the fall of the USSR was a disaster and that he is rebuilding the country to that glory.
    Yebbut even these unsubtle lads tend not to say the quiet part out loud, not to the rest of world anyway.
    It's in their party platform.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,431
    stodge said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    Battlebus said:

    Have we discussed Reform's request to place some of their friends in the House of Lords. And if they were able to, would Nadine give up on Boris and join Reform?

    They can "request" whatever they like, it's not in their fief or power unless existing Peers set up a Reform group within the House of Lords. Nothing wrong with that if they chose so to do but it's the usual bleating from Reform who think because they are the top of the opinion polls, they are entitled to representation. That's not how politics works.

    We've also seen a concerted anti-London push from Reform in recent days with Reform councillors in neighbouring authorities advocating "re-uniting" London Boroughs with their pre-1965 counties so Havering with Essex, Bromley with Kent etc. I suppose there might be some vague nostalgia for that as there might be for Yugoslavia or Prussia but most residents are, I suspect, for all they might loathe Sadiq Khan currently, happier within London with their 60+ free travel (which I know is supported by everyone on here).
    So it would save money if Havering merged with Essex and Bromley merged with Kent - with the 60+ reform voter voting to remove their benefit.

    As someone subjected to Zone 9 (I.e. out of London tfl fares) for 35 years it would also allow TfL to charge significantly more for their tickets in those boroughs

    But it’s also the same on Teesside with anyone south of the Tees desperate to claim they are really in North Yorkshire
    For a party which strongly relies on older voters (not to the extent the Conservatives do but still) it would seem counter-intuitive for turkeys to vote for Christmas. Are we assuming Reform will allow the poor citizens any choice in this or will they just enact this through primary legislation and leave everyone else to clear up the mess? As we're seeing with the current round of re-organisation, these exercises involve a lot of spending before any meaningful benefit is realised.

    Just to clarify your understanding of how it works, boundaries have little or nothing to do with the 60+ Oystercard and Freedom pass. It's provided by Transport for London and can be used on TfL services whether those services are running inside Greater London or not. As an example, if I want to go to Sandown Park for an afternoon's racing and I don't want to pay for travel, I take the train to Surbiton and then catch the K3 bus (a TfL service) to Esher High Street and then walk to the track. I could pay to take the train to Esher but with my punting prowess, I need all the cash I can spare.

    IF Bromley ceased to be a London Borough but bus services (including the Croydon Tramlink and Overground rail) were still provided by Transport for London, 60+ Oyster cards and Freedom passes would still be valid on those services and people from other parts of London could still use them for nothing. The locals would have to pay.

    As usual with Reform "policies", it's incoherent and doesn't reflect the reality of how people live but apparently 30% of us want these clowns in Government. I suppose the one difference is some genuinely thought Boris Johnson and Keir Starmer might bring about some positive change and improve people's lives and I can appreciate that sense of disappointment. No one will be under any illusions with Reform.
    That will just be Khan's Punishment Beatings Because We Stood Up For Our Freedom.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,968

    Nigelb said:

    nico67 said:

    What did Americans think would happen when half decided to vote for him again ! These polls annoy the hell out of me . Wtf did so many Latinos decide to vote for him in the first place .

    The overall approval rating does look much lower than other polls .

    People like the sound of radical change, and simple solutions. But they're not great at extrapolation what those things might actually mean.

    And an awful lot of people expect life for them to just carry on in the same vein, until it doesn't.

    And remember that Trump emphasised time and again that the targets of his cruelty would only be the worst of the worst.

    Is the immigration debate entirely dissimilar here ?
    I've lived in the US and the UK and anti immigrant sentiment is without a doubt worse here. We've just not yet elected a government willing to act on it. If Farage got in we would see some really ugly stuff happening, accompanied by civil unrest.
    "We've arrested hundreds of delivery riders working illegally and boosted immigration enforcement teams."
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,692

    stodge said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    Battlebus said:

    Have we discussed Reform's request to place some of their friends in the House of Lords. And if they were able to, would Nadine give up on Boris and join Reform?

    They can "request" whatever they like, it's not in their fief or power unless existing Peers set up a Reform group within the House of Lords. Nothing wrong with that if they chose so to do but it's the usual bleating from Reform who think because they are the top of the opinion polls, they are entitled to representation. That's not how politics works.

    We've also seen a concerted anti-London push from Reform in recent days with Reform councillors in neighbouring authorities advocating "re-uniting" London Boroughs with their pre-1965 counties so Havering with Essex, Bromley with Kent etc. I suppose there might be some vague nostalgia for that as there might be for Yugoslavia or Prussia but most residents are, I suspect, for all they might loathe Sadiq Khan currently, happier within London with their 60+ free travel (which I know is supported by everyone on here).
    So it would save money if Havering merged with Essex and Bromley merged with Kent - with the 60+ reform voter voting to remove their benefit.

    As someone subjected to Zone 9 (I.e. out of London tfl fares) for 35 years it would also allow TfL to charge significantly more for their tickets in those boroughs

    But it’s also the same on Teesside with anyone south of the Tees desperate to claim they are really in North Yorkshire
    For a party which strongly relies on older voters (not to the extent the Conservatives do but still) it would seem counter-intuitive for turkeys to vote for Christmas. Are we assuming Reform will allow the poor citizens any choice in this or will they just enact this through primary legislation and leave everyone else to clear up the mess? As we're seeing with the current round of re-organisation, these exercises involve a lot of spending before any meaningful benefit is realised.

    Just to clarify your understanding of how it works, boundaries have little or nothing to do with the 60+ Oystercard and Freedom pass. It's provided by Transport for London and can be used on TfL services whether those services are running inside Greater London or not. As an example, if I want to go to Sandown Park for an afternoon's racing and I don't want to pay for travel, I take the train to Surbiton and then catch the K3 bus (a TfL service) to Esher High Street and then walk to the track. I could pay to take the train to Esher but with my punting prowess, I need all the cash I can spare.

    IF Bromley ceased to be a London Borough but bus services (including the Croydon Tramlink and Overground rail) were still provided by Transport for London, 60+ Oyster cards and Freedom passes would still be valid on those services and people from other parts of London could still use them for nothing. The locals would have to pay.

    As usual with Reform "policies", it's incoherent and doesn't reflect the reality of how people live but apparently 30% of us want these clowns in Government. I suppose the one difference is some genuinely thought Boris Johnson and Keir Starmer might bring about some positive change and improve people's lives and I can appreciate that sense of disappointment. No one will be under any illusions with Reform.
    That will just be Khan's Punishment Beatings Because We Stood Up For Our Freedom.
    No one should incur the wrath of Khan.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,732
    IanB2 said:

    algarkirk said:

    DavidL said:

    It still irritates me that the Americans insist on telling you that the difference between 47 and 52 is 5 (which might be classed as unnecessary information) and fail to tell us how these numbers compare with the last ones giving the direction of travel. Why on earth do they do this?

    Having said this, I got lured into watching a video yesterday when people in the street were being asked if a die was rolled 420 times how many 3s would you expect? The people getting it wrong included a teacher, allegedly. Innumeracy rules, apparently.

    It still blows my mind how many supposedly intelligent people think I am wrong when I tell them you get more pizza with one 18 inch pizza than with two 12 inch pizzas.
    Do you tell them to do the calculation and then laugh when they ask what's the calculation ?

    Too many 'educated' people seem to be proud of their lack of basic mathematical skills.
    I am no good at hard maths but can navigate everyday numerical reality in my head, (and keep noticing that a lot of younger people can't) but I would not be able to tell you from my head at what proportion of diameter increase the area of a pizza doubles.

    Related to this is that people are routinely amazed that others don't know at all what they know a lot about. (Like most people don't know that Sir K is the son of a toolmaker; couldn't name the four gospels; don't know whether Alfred the Great was before or after Henry III).
    You don't need to remember any of the formulae about the areas of circles; the truth of TSE's proposition arises simply from increasing both the height and the width of the pizza by 50%, which is multiplying by 1.5 (from 12 inch to 18 inch), hence the area increases by 1.5x1.5 = 2.25, which is more than double.

    Simple things can fool people who don't think clearly; for example, during my recent absence our Sunil posted a photo of central London, and one of the responses said "it looks like you are significantly ABOVE the top of the Shard, which is impossible in a London building". Yet in the photo the top of the Shard was very clearly above the horizon; it ought to have taken just a moment's thought to realise that the photographer is always LOWER than any object that is above a level horizon in a photo.


    The reality in a pizza restaurant may be somewhat different as dough for each pizza won't be measured out precisely. IIRC from my days working in a pizza restaurant the 12" pizza was allocated 1.5x the dough for a 10" pizza not 1.44x as much, because that was easier. Diameter sizes are approximate, and I suspect an 18" pizza would simply use 2x the dough of a 12".
    The question of toppings is an interesting one. We used to do an all you can eat offer on Wednesdays and we had to note which round people were on as the kitchen would put fewer toppings on each one. So the first pizza was like a normal one, and by the time people were on their third or fourth pizza it was pretty bare. The funny thing was that nobody ever noticed!
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,311
    algarkirk said:

    DavidL said:

    It still irritates me that the Americans insist on telling you that the difference between 47 and 52 is 5 (which might be classed as unnecessary information) and fail to tell us how these numbers compare with the last ones giving the direction of travel. Why on earth do they do this?

    Having said this, I got lured into watching a video yesterday when people in the street were being asked if a die was rolled 420 times how many 3s would you expect? The people getting it wrong included a teacher, allegedly. Innumeracy rules, apparently.

    It still blows my mind how many supposedly intelligent people think I am wrong when I tell them you get more pizza with one 18 inch pizza than with two 12 inch pizzas.
    Do you tell them to do the calculation and then laugh when they ask what's the calculation ?

    Too many 'educated' people seem to be proud of their lack of basic mathematical skills.
    I am no good at hard maths but can navigate everyday numerical reality in my head, (and keep noticing that a lot of younger people can't) but I would not be able to tell you from my head at what proportion of diameter increase the area of a pizza doubles.

    Related to this is that people are routinely amazed that others don't know at all what they know a lot about. (Like most people don't know that Sir K is the son of a toolmaker; couldn't name the four gospels; don't know whether Alfred the Great was before or after Henry III).
    What did people know before compulsory education? One minute of Mayhew's findings:-
    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/i4TICZ67Ws4
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,534

    Just like having a picture of a Nazi super weapon on your wall, wearing a USSR sweatshirt should be totally unconcerning.

    Yaroslav Trofimov
    @yarotrof
    38m
    Lavrov showed up in Alaska wearing a USSR sweatshirt. Very reassuring to at least 14 of Russia’s neighbors.

    https://x.com/yarotrof/status/1956257440091267365

    The entire Putin schtick is that the fall of the USSR was a disaster and that he is rebuilding the country to that glory.
    Yebbut even these unsubtle lads tend not to say the quiet part out loud, not to the rest of world anyway.
    I know what you're saying, but is it actually true? From what I've read, the Russian's are selling a very different message to many parts of the rest of the world, which goes something like: "The USSR was your country's friend. The fall of the USSR was a disaster for us, and you. We're rebuilding it."

    And then throw in a lot of anti-American and anti-western shite.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,311
    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    It still irritates me that the Americans insist on telling you that the difference between 47 and 52 is 5 (which might be classed as unnecessary information) and fail to tell us how these numbers compare with the last ones giving the direction of travel. Why on earth do they do this?

    Having said this, I got lured into watching a video yesterday when people in the street were being asked if a die was rolled 420 times how many 3s would you expect? The people getting it wrong included a teacher, allegedly. Innumeracy rules, apparently.

    It still blows my mind how many supposedly intelligent people think I am wrong when I tell them you get more pizza with one 18 inch pizza than with two 12 inch pizzas.
    Depends how thick the bases are.

    If the same quantity of dough is used but is stretched more with an 18 incher then you would be better to go for two 12 inchers.

    This is a volume of a cylinder question rather than an area of a circle question.
    Pizza is a silly example anyway. Who buys pizza by the pound? The appropriate metric for pizza is slices, and you do indeed get more slices from two 12-inchers.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,860

    IanB2 said:

    algarkirk said:

    DavidL said:

    It still irritates me that the Americans insist on telling you that the difference between 47 and 52 is 5 (which might be classed as unnecessary information) and fail to tell us how these numbers compare with the last ones giving the direction of travel. Why on earth do they do this?

    Having said this, I got lured into watching a video yesterday when people in the street were being asked if a die was rolled 420 times how many 3s would you expect? The people getting it wrong included a teacher, allegedly. Innumeracy rules, apparently.

    It still blows my mind how many supposedly intelligent people think I am wrong when I tell them you get more pizza with one 18 inch pizza than with two 12 inch pizzas.
    Do you tell them to do the calculation and then laugh when they ask what's the calculation ?

    Too many 'educated' people seem to be proud of their lack of basic mathematical skills.
    I am no good at hard maths but can navigate everyday numerical reality in my head, (and keep noticing that a lot of younger people can't) but I would not be able to tell you from my head at what proportion of diameter increase the area of a pizza doubles.

    Related to this is that people are routinely amazed that others don't know at all what they know a lot about. (Like most people don't know that Sir K is the son of a toolmaker; couldn't name the four gospels; don't know whether Alfred the Great was before or after Henry III).
    You don't need to remember any of the formulae about the areas of circles; the truth of TSE's proposition arises simply from increasing both the height and the width of the pizza by 50%, which is multiplying by 1.5 (from 12 inch to 18 inch), hence the area increases by 1.5x1.5 = 2.25, which is more than double.

    Simple things can fool people who don't think clearly; for example, during my recent absence our Sunil posted a photo of central London, and one of the responses said "it looks like you are significantly ABOVE the top of the Shard, which is impossible in a London building". Yet in the photo the top of the Shard was very clearly above the horizon; it ought to have taken just a moment's thought to realise that the photographer is always LOWER than any object that is above a level horizon in a photo.


    The reality in a pizza restaurant may be somewhat different as dough for each pizza won't be measured out precisely. IIRC from my days working in a pizza restaurant the 12" pizza was allocated 1.5x the dough for a 10" pizza not 1.44x as much, because that was easier. Diameter sizes are approximate, and I suspect an 18" pizza would simply use 2x the dough of a 12".
    The question of toppings is an interesting one. We used to do an all you can eat offer on Wednesdays and we had to note which round people were on as the kitchen would put fewer toppings on each one. So the first pizza was like a normal one, and by the time people were on their third or fourth pizza it was pretty bare. The funny thing was that nobody ever noticed!
    Peak PB…
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,860

    Just like having a picture of a Nazi super weapon on your wall, wearing a USSR sweatshirt should be totally unconcerning.

    Yaroslav Trofimov
    @yarotrof
    38m
    Lavrov showed up in Alaska wearing a USSR sweatshirt. Very reassuring to at least 14 of Russia’s neighbors.

    https://x.com/yarotrof/status/1956257440091267365

    I don’t imagine the Balkans or Mongolia would be too thrilled either.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,719

    DavidL said:

    It still irritates me that the Americans insist on telling you that the difference between 47 and 52 is 5 (which might be classed as unnecessary information) and fail to tell us how these numbers compare with the last ones giving the direction of travel. Why on earth do they do this?

    Having said this, I got lured into watching a video yesterday when people in the street were being asked if a die was rolled 420 times how many 3s would you expect? The people getting it wrong included a teacher, allegedly. Innumeracy rules, apparently.

    It still blows my mind how many supposedly intelligent people think I am wrong when I tell them you get more pizza with one 18 inch pizza than with two 12 inch pizzas.
    Only a few bites though
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,311

    stodge said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    Battlebus said:

    Have we discussed Reform's request to place some of their friends in the House of Lords. And if they were able to, would Nadine give up on Boris and join Reform?

    They can "request" whatever they like, it's not in their fief or power unless existing Peers set up a Reform group within the House of Lords. Nothing wrong with that if they chose so to do but it's the usual bleating from Reform who think because they are the top of the opinion polls, they are entitled to representation. That's not how politics works.

    We've also seen a concerted anti-London push from Reform in recent days with Reform councillors in neighbouring authorities advocating "re-uniting" London Boroughs with their pre-1965 counties so Havering with Essex, Bromley with Kent etc. I suppose there might be some vague nostalgia for that as there might be for Yugoslavia or Prussia but most residents are, I suspect, for all they might loathe Sadiq Khan currently, happier within London with their 60+ free travel (which I know is supported by everyone on here).
    So it would save money if Havering merged with Essex and Bromley merged with Kent - with the 60+ reform voter voting to remove their benefit.

    As someone subjected to Zone 9 (I.e. out of London tfl fares) for 35 years it would also allow TfL to charge significantly more for their tickets in those boroughs

    But it’s also the same on Teesside with anyone south of the Tees desperate to claim they are really in North Yorkshire
    For a party which strongly relies on older voters (not to the extent the Conservatives do but still) it would seem counter-intuitive for turkeys to vote for Christmas. Are we assuming Reform will allow the poor citizens any choice in this or will they just enact this through primary legislation and leave everyone else to clear up the mess? As we're seeing with the current round of re-organisation, these exercises involve a lot of spending before any meaningful benefit is realised.

    Just to clarify your understanding of how it works, boundaries have little or nothing to do with the 60+ Oystercard and Freedom pass. It's provided by Transport for London and can be used on TfL services whether those services are running inside Greater London or not. As an example, if I want to go to Sandown Park for an afternoon's racing and I don't want to pay for travel, I take the train to Surbiton and then catch the K3 bus (a TfL service) to Esher High Street and then walk to the track. I could pay to take the train to Esher but with my punting prowess, I need all the cash I can spare.

    IF Bromley ceased to be a London Borough but bus services (including the Croydon Tramlink and Overground rail) were still provided by Transport for London, 60+ Oyster cards and Freedom passes would still be valid on those services and people from other parts of London could still use them for nothing. The locals would have to pay.

    As usual with Reform "policies", it's incoherent and doesn't reflect the reality of how people live but apparently 30% of us want these clowns in Government. I suppose the one difference is some genuinely thought Boris Johnson and Keir Starmer might bring about some positive change and improve people's lives and I can appreciate that sense of disappointment. No one will be under any illusions with Reform.
    That will just be Khan's Punishment Beatings Because We Stood Up For Our Freedom.
    No one should incur the wrath of Khan.
    Once more pb is ahead of the game. The Standard reports that someone or other has called for an end to the Freedom Pass.

    Calls to scrap Over-60s free travel after it 'costs £84m in lost revenue'
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/freedom-pass-over-60s-free-travel-cost-cuts-b1243075.html
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,891
    IanB2 said:

    algarkirk said:

    DavidL said:

    It still irritates me that the Americans insist on telling you that the difference between 47 and 52 is 5 (which might be classed as unnecessary information) and fail to tell us how these numbers compare with the last ones giving the direction of travel. Why on earth do they do this?

    Having said this, I got lured into watching a video yesterday when people in the street were being asked if a die was rolled 420 times how many 3s would you expect? The people getting it wrong included a teacher, allegedly. Innumeracy rules, apparently.

    It still blows my mind how many supposedly intelligent people think I am wrong when I tell them you get more pizza with one 18 inch pizza than with two 12 inch pizzas.
    Do you tell them to do the calculation and then laugh when they ask what's the calculation ?

    Too many 'educated' people seem to be proud of their lack of basic mathematical skills.
    I am no good at hard maths but can navigate everyday numerical reality in my head, (and keep noticing that a lot of younger people can't) but I would not be able to tell you from my head at what proportion of diameter increase the area of a pizza doubles.

    Related to this is that people are routinely amazed that others don't know at all what they know a lot about. (Like most people don't know that Sir K is the son of a toolmaker; couldn't name the four gospels; don't know whether Alfred the Great was before or after Henry III).
    You don't need to remember any of the formulae about the areas of circles; the truth of TSE's proposition arises simply from increasing both the height and the width of the pizza by 50%, which is multiplying by 1.5 (from 12 inch to 18 inch), hence the area increases by 1.5x1.5 = 2.25, which is more than double.

    Simple things can fool people who don't think clearly; for example, during my recent absence our Sunil posted a photo of central London, and one of the responses said "it looks like you are significantly ABOVE the top of the Shard, which is impossible in a London building". Yet in the photo the top of the Shard was very clearly above the horizon; it ought to have taken just a moment's thought to realise that the photographer is always LOWER than any object that is above a level horizon in a photo.


    Hang on - that level horizon business only applies if the basic ground level is uniform. If you've got a ring of hills then that assumption is not valid. And you've got the Hampstead Heath and Kenwood uplands, etc., to the north, and the southern heights around Dulwich and Sydenham and Shooter's Hill.

    Though that doesn't negate your argument; indeed it strengthens it. London does have the feature that nothing visible can be lower than Thames water level ...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,891

    stodge said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    Battlebus said:

    Have we discussed Reform's request to place some of their friends in the House of Lords. And if they were able to, would Nadine give up on Boris and join Reform?

    They can "request" whatever they like, it's not in their fief or power unless existing Peers set up a Reform group within the House of Lords. Nothing wrong with that if they chose so to do but it's the usual bleating from Reform who think because they are the top of the opinion polls, they are entitled to representation. That's not how politics works.

    We've also seen a concerted anti-London push from Reform in recent days with Reform councillors in neighbouring authorities advocating "re-uniting" London Boroughs with their pre-1965 counties so Havering with Essex, Bromley with Kent etc. I suppose there might be some vague nostalgia for that as there might be for Yugoslavia or Prussia but most residents are, I suspect, for all they might loathe Sadiq Khan currently, happier within London with their 60+ free travel (which I know is supported by everyone on here).
    So it would save money if Havering merged with Essex and Bromley merged with Kent - with the 60+ reform voter voting to remove their benefit.

    As someone subjected to Zone 9 (I.e. out of London tfl fares) for 35 years it would also allow TfL to charge significantly more for their tickets in those boroughs

    But it’s also the same on Teesside with anyone south of the Tees desperate to claim they are really in North Yorkshire
    For a party which strongly relies on older voters (not to the extent the Conservatives do but still) it would seem counter-intuitive for turkeys to vote for Christmas. Are we assuming Reform will allow the poor citizens any choice in this or will they just enact this through primary legislation and leave everyone else to clear up the mess? As we're seeing with the current round of re-organisation, these exercises involve a lot of spending before any meaningful benefit is realised.

    Just to clarify your understanding of how it works, boundaries have little or nothing to do with the 60+ Oystercard and Freedom pass. It's provided by Transport for London and can be used on TfL services whether those services are running inside Greater London or not. As an example, if I want to go to Sandown Park for an afternoon's racing and I don't want to pay for travel, I take the train to Surbiton and then catch the K3 bus (a TfL service) to Esher High Street and then walk to the track. I could pay to take the train to Esher but with my punting prowess, I need all the cash I can spare.

    IF Bromley ceased to be a London Borough but bus services (including the Croydon Tramlink and Overground rail) were still provided by Transport for London, 60+ Oyster cards and Freedom passes would still be valid on those services and people from other parts of London could still use them for nothing. The locals would have to pay.

    As usual with Reform "policies", it's incoherent and doesn't reflect the reality of how people live but apparently 30% of us want these clowns in Government. I suppose the one difference is some genuinely thought Boris Johnson and Keir Starmer might bring about some positive change and improve people's lives and I can appreciate that sense of disappointment. No one will be under any illusions with Reform.
    That will just be Khan's Punishment Beatings Because We Stood Up For Our Freedom.
    No one should incur the wrath of Khan.
    Once more pb is ahead of the game. The Standard reports that someone or other has called for an end to the Freedom Pass.

    Calls to scrap Over-60s free travel after it 'costs £84m in lost revenue'
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/freedom-pass-over-60s-free-travel-cost-cuts-b1243075.html
    Does that make the mistake of assuming that each oldie would make as many trips as they would if it weren't 'free' (as if they weren't also council tax payers, of course)?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,751
    FPT:

    >vino Posts: 194


    I went to a debate in 2006 (?) re ID cards - the "Pro" being Nick Palmer who was very good against the Tories & Lib Dems - at the end of the debate the motion to introduce ID cards was carried. <

    Thanks vino. I don't dismiss all fears about misuse of ID cards, but people who want to misuse personal information have plenty of ways to do it already. Not having a simple way of proving who you are is just a nuisance and gives an illusory sense of security.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,719
    Carnyx said:

    stodge said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    Battlebus said:

    Have we discussed Reform's request to place some of their friends in the House of Lords. And if they were able to, would Nadine give up on Boris and join Reform?

    They can "request" whatever they like, it's not in their fief or power unless existing Peers set up a Reform group within the House of Lords. Nothing wrong with that if they chose so to do but it's the usual bleating from Reform who think because they are the top of the opinion polls, they are entitled to representation. That's not how politics works.

    We've also seen a concerted anti-London push from Reform in recent days with Reform councillors in neighbouring authorities advocating "re-uniting" London Boroughs with their pre-1965 counties so Havering with Essex, Bromley with Kent etc. I suppose there might be some vague nostalgia for that as there might be for Yugoslavia or Prussia but most residents are, I suspect, for all they might loathe Sadiq Khan currently, happier within London with their 60+ free travel (which I know is supported by everyone on here).
    So it would save money if Havering merged with Essex and Bromley merged with Kent - with the 60+ reform voter voting to remove their benefit.

    As someone subjected to Zone 9 (I.e. out of London tfl fares) for 35 years it would also allow TfL to charge significantly more for their tickets in those boroughs

    But it’s also the same on Teesside with anyone south of the Tees desperate to claim they are really in North Yorkshire
    For a party which strongly relies on older voters (not to the extent the Conservatives do but still) it would seem counter-intuitive for turkeys to vote for Christmas. Are we assuming Reform will allow the poor citizens any choice in this or will they just enact this through primary legislation and leave everyone else to clear up the mess? As we're seeing with the current round of re-organisation, these exercises involve a lot of spending before any meaningful benefit is realised.

    Just to clarify your understanding of how it works, boundaries have little or nothing to do with the 60+ Oystercard and Freedom pass. It's provided by Transport for London and can be used on TfL services whether those services are running inside Greater London or not. As an example, if I want to go to Sandown Park for an afternoon's racing and I don't want to pay for travel, I take the train to Surbiton and then catch the K3 bus (a TfL service) to Esher High Street and then walk to the track. I could pay to take the train to Esher but with my punting prowess, I need all the cash I can spare.

    IF Bromley ceased to be a London Borough but bus services (including the Croydon Tramlink and Overground rail) were still provided by Transport for London, 60+ Oyster cards and Freedom passes would still be valid on those services and people from other parts of London could still use them for nothing. The locals would have to pay.

    As usual with Reform "policies", it's incoherent and doesn't reflect the reality of how people live but apparently 30% of us want these clowns in Government. I suppose the one difference is some genuinely thought Boris Johnson and Keir Starmer might bring about some positive change and improve people's lives and I can appreciate that sense of disappointment. No one will be under any illusions with Reform.
    That will just be Khan's Punishment Beatings Because We Stood Up For Our Freedom.
    No one should incur the wrath of Khan.
    Once more pb is ahead of the game. The Standard reports that someone or other has called for an end to the Freedom Pass.

    Calls to scrap Over-60s free travel after it 'costs £84m in lost revenue'
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/freedom-pass-over-60s-free-travel-cost-cuts-b1243075.html
    Does that make the mistake of assuming that each oldie would make as many trips as they would if it weren't 'free' (as if they weren't also council tax payers, of course)?
    Many don't partake of free bus passes as they prefer to go places in style.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,983
    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    stodge said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    Battlebus said:

    Have we discussed Reform's request to place some of their friends in the House of Lords. And if they were able to, would Nadine give up on Boris and join Reform?

    They can "request" whatever they like, it's not in their fief or power unless existing Peers set up a Reform group within the House of Lords. Nothing wrong with that if they chose so to do but it's the usual bleating from Reform who think because they are the top of the opinion polls, they are entitled to representation. That's not how politics works.

    We've also seen a concerted anti-London push from Reform in recent days with Reform councillors in neighbouring authorities advocating "re-uniting" London Boroughs with their pre-1965 counties so Havering with Essex, Bromley with Kent etc. I suppose there might be some vague nostalgia for that as there might be for Yugoslavia or Prussia but most residents are, I suspect, for all they might loathe Sadiq Khan currently, happier within London with their 60+ free travel (which I know is supported by everyone on here).
    So it would save money if Havering merged with Essex and Bromley merged with Kent - with the 60+ reform voter voting to remove their benefit.

    As someone subjected to Zone 9 (I.e. out of London tfl fares) for 35 years it would also allow TfL to charge significantly more for their tickets in those boroughs

    But it’s also the same on Teesside with anyone south of the Tees desperate to claim they are really in North Yorkshire
    For a party which strongly relies on older voters (not to the extent the Conservatives do but still) it would seem counter-intuitive for turkeys to vote for Christmas. Are we assuming Reform will allow the poor citizens any choice in this or will they just enact this through primary legislation and leave everyone else to clear up the mess? As we're seeing with the current round of re-organisation, these exercises involve a lot of spending before any meaningful benefit is realised.

    Just to clarify your understanding of how it works, boundaries have little or nothing to do with the 60+ Oystercard and Freedom pass. It's provided by Transport for London and can be used on TfL services whether those services are running inside Greater London or not. As an example, if I want to go to Sandown Park for an afternoon's racing and I don't want to pay for travel, I take the train to Surbiton and then catch the K3 bus (a TfL service) to Esher High Street and then walk to the track. I could pay to take the train to Esher but with my punting prowess, I need all the cash I can spare.

    IF Bromley ceased to be a London Borough but bus services (including the Croydon Tramlink and Overground rail) were still provided by Transport for London, 60+ Oyster cards and Freedom passes would still be valid on those services and people from other parts of London could still use them for nothing. The locals would have to pay.

    As usual with Reform "policies", it's incoherent and doesn't reflect the reality of how people live but apparently 30% of us want these clowns in Government. I suppose the one difference is some genuinely thought Boris Johnson and Keir Starmer might bring about some positive change and improve people's lives and I can appreciate that sense of disappointment. No one will be under any illusions with Reform.
    That will just be Khan's Punishment Beatings Because We Stood Up For Our Freedom.
    No one should incur the wrath of Khan.
    Once more pb is ahead of the game. The Standard reports that someone or other has called for an end to the Freedom Pass.

    Calls to scrap Over-60s free travel after it 'costs £84m in lost revenue'
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/freedom-pass-over-60s-free-travel-cost-cuts-b1243075.html
    Does that make the mistake of assuming that each oldie would make as many trips as they would if it weren't 'free' (as if they weren't also council tax payers, of course)?
    Many don't partake of free bus passes as they prefer to go places in style.
    In London you get free train and tube travel as well.

    And you have to get home from the pub somehow.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 32,311
    Carnyx said:

    stodge said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    Battlebus said:

    Have we discussed Reform's request to place some of their friends in the House of Lords. And if they were able to, would Nadine give up on Boris and join Reform?

    They can "request" whatever they like, it's not in their fief or power unless existing Peers set up a Reform group within the House of Lords. Nothing wrong with that if they chose so to do but it's the usual bleating from Reform who think because they are the top of the opinion polls, they are entitled to representation. That's not how politics works.

    We've also seen a concerted anti-London push from Reform in recent days with Reform councillors in neighbouring authorities advocating "re-uniting" London Boroughs with their pre-1965 counties so Havering with Essex, Bromley with Kent etc. I suppose there might be some vague nostalgia for that as there might be for Yugoslavia or Prussia but most residents are, I suspect, for all they might loathe Sadiq Khan currently, happier within London with their 60+ free travel (which I know is supported by everyone on here).
    So it would save money if Havering merged with Essex and Bromley merged with Kent - with the 60+ reform voter voting to remove their benefit.

    As someone subjected to Zone 9 (I.e. out of London tfl fares) for 35 years it would also allow TfL to charge significantly more for their tickets in those boroughs

    But it’s also the same on Teesside with anyone south of the Tees desperate to claim they are really in North Yorkshire
    For a party which strongly relies on older voters (not to the extent the Conservatives do but still) it would seem counter-intuitive for turkeys to vote for Christmas. Are we assuming Reform will allow the poor citizens any choice in this or will they just enact this through primary legislation and leave everyone else to clear up the mess? As we're seeing with the current round of re-organisation, these exercises involve a lot of spending before any meaningful benefit is realised.

    Just to clarify your understanding of how it works, boundaries have little or nothing to do with the 60+ Oystercard and Freedom pass. It's provided by Transport for London and can be used on TfL services whether those services are running inside Greater London or not. As an example, if I want to go to Sandown Park for an afternoon's racing and I don't want to pay for travel, I take the train to Surbiton and then catch the K3 bus (a TfL service) to Esher High Street and then walk to the track. I could pay to take the train to Esher but with my punting prowess, I need all the cash I can spare.

    IF Bromley ceased to be a London Borough but bus services (including the Croydon Tramlink and Overground rail) were still provided by Transport for London, 60+ Oyster cards and Freedom passes would still be valid on those services and people from other parts of London could still use them for nothing. The locals would have to pay.

    As usual with Reform "policies", it's incoherent and doesn't reflect the reality of how people live but apparently 30% of us want these clowns in Government. I suppose the one difference is some genuinely thought Boris Johnson and Keir Starmer might bring about some positive change and improve people's lives and I can appreciate that sense of disappointment. No one will be under any illusions with Reform.
    That will just be Khan's Punishment Beatings Because We Stood Up For Our Freedom.
    No one should incur the wrath of Khan.
    Once more pb is ahead of the game. The Standard reports that someone or other has called for an end to the Freedom Pass.

    Calls to scrap Over-60s free travel after it 'costs £84m in lost revenue'
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/freedom-pass-over-60s-free-travel-cost-cuts-b1243075.html
    Does that make the mistake of assuming that each oldie would make as many trips as they would if it weren't 'free' (as if they weren't also council tax payers, of course)?
    Of course it does. It lazily tots up the full fare of each free trip, without considering that many journeys would simply not have been made. Another hazard of taking data collected for one purpose and using it for quite another.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,483
    Carnyx said:

    stodge said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    Battlebus said:

    Have we discussed Reform's request to place some of their friends in the House of Lords. And if they were able to, would Nadine give up on Boris and join Reform?

    They can "request" whatever they like, it's not in their fief or power unless existing Peers set up a Reform group within the House of Lords. Nothing wrong with that if they chose so to do but it's the usual bleating from Reform who think because they are the top of the opinion polls, they are entitled to representation. That's not how politics works.

    We've also seen a concerted anti-London push from Reform in recent days with Reform councillors in neighbouring authorities advocating "re-uniting" London Boroughs with their pre-1965 counties so Havering with Essex, Bromley with Kent etc. I suppose there might be some vague nostalgia for that as there might be for Yugoslavia or Prussia but most residents are, I suspect, for all they might loathe Sadiq Khan currently, happier within London with their 60+ free travel (which I know is supported by everyone on here).
    So it would save money if Havering merged with Essex and Bromley merged with Kent - with the 60+ reform voter voting to remove their benefit.

    As someone subjected to Zone 9 (I.e. out of London tfl fares) for 35 years it would also allow TfL to charge significantly more for their tickets in those boroughs

    But it’s also the same on Teesside with anyone south of the Tees desperate to claim they are really in North Yorkshire
    For a party which strongly relies on older voters (not to the extent the Conservatives do but still) it would seem counter-intuitive for turkeys to vote for Christmas. Are we assuming Reform will allow the poor citizens any choice in this or will they just enact this through primary legislation and leave everyone else to clear up the mess? As we're seeing with the current round of re-organisation, these exercises involve a lot of spending before any meaningful benefit is realised.

    Just to clarify your understanding of how it works, boundaries have little or nothing to do with the 60+ Oystercard and Freedom pass. It's provided by Transport for London and can be used on TfL services whether those services are running inside Greater London or not. As an example, if I want to go to Sandown Park for an afternoon's racing and I don't want to pay for travel, I take the train to Surbiton and then catch the K3 bus (a TfL service) to Esher High Street and then walk to the track. I could pay to take the train to Esher but with my punting prowess, I need all the cash I can spare.

    IF Bromley ceased to be a London Borough but bus services (including the Croydon Tramlink and Overground rail) were still provided by Transport for London, 60+ Oyster cards and Freedom passes would still be valid on those services and people from other parts of London could still use them for nothing. The locals would have to pay.

    As usual with Reform "policies", it's incoherent and doesn't reflect the reality of how people live but apparently 30% of us want these clowns in Government. I suppose the one difference is some genuinely thought Boris Johnson and Keir Starmer might bring about some positive change and improve people's lives and I can appreciate that sense of disappointment. No one will be under any illusions with Reform.
    That will just be Khan's Punishment Beatings Because We Stood Up For Our Freedom.
    No one should incur the wrath of Khan.
    Once more pb is ahead of the game. The Standard reports that someone or other has called for an end to the Freedom Pass.

    Calls to scrap Over-60s free travel after it 'costs £84m in lost revenue'
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/freedom-pass-over-60s-free-travel-cost-cuts-b1243075.html
    Does that make the mistake of assuming that each oldie would make as many trips as they would if it weren't 'free' (as if they weren't also council tax payers, of course)?
    Our friend who lives in N London certainly wouldn't make as many trips as she does if she had to pay. And it's not as if she's on the breadline. Not rich by any means, but feels a need to be careful.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,917
    edited August 15
    Carnyx said:

    stodge said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    Battlebus said:

    Have we discussed Reform's request to place some of their friends in the House of Lords. And if they were able to, would Nadine give up on Boris and join Reform?

    They can "request" whatever they like, it's not in their fief or power unless existing Peers set up a Reform group within the House of Lords. Nothing wrong with that if they chose so to do but it's the usual bleating from Reform who think because they are the top of the opinion polls, they are entitled to representation. That's not how politics works.

    We've also seen a concerted anti-London push from Reform in recent days with Reform councillors in neighbouring authorities advocating "re-uniting" London Boroughs with their pre-1965 counties so Havering with Essex, Bromley with Kent etc. I suppose there might be some vague nostalgia for that as there might be for Yugoslavia or Prussia but most residents are, I suspect, for all they might loathe Sadiq Khan currently, happier within London with their 60+ free travel (which I know is supported by everyone on here).
    So it would save money if Havering merged with Essex and Bromley merged with Kent - with the 60+ reform voter voting to remove their benefit.

    As someone subjected to Zone 9 (I.e. out of London tfl fares) for 35 years it would also allow TfL to charge significantly more for their tickets in those boroughs

    But it’s also the same on Teesside with anyone south of the Tees desperate to claim they are really in North Yorkshire
    For a party which strongly relies on older voters (not to the extent the Conservatives do but still) it would seem counter-intuitive for turkeys to vote for Christmas. Are we assuming Reform will allow the poor citizens any choice in this or will they just enact this through primary legislation and leave everyone else to clear up the mess? As we're seeing with the current round of re-organisation, these exercises involve a lot of spending before any meaningful benefit is realised.

    Just to clarify your understanding of how it works, boundaries have little or nothing to do with the 60+ Oystercard and Freedom pass. It's provided by Transport for London and can be used on TfL services whether those services are running inside Greater London or not. As an example, if I want to go to Sandown Park for an afternoon's racing and I don't want to pay for travel, I take the train to Surbiton and then catch the K3 bus (a TfL service) to Esher High Street and then walk to the track. I could pay to take the train to Esher but with my punting prowess, I need all the cash I can spare.

    IF Bromley ceased to be a London Borough but bus services (including the Croydon Tramlink and Overground rail) were still provided by Transport for London, 60+ Oyster cards and Freedom passes would still be valid on those services and people from other parts of London could still use them for nothing. The locals would have to pay.

    As usual with Reform "policies", it's incoherent and doesn't reflect the reality of how people live but apparently 30% of us want these clowns in Government. I suppose the one difference is some genuinely thought Boris Johnson and Keir Starmer might bring about some positive change and improve people's lives and I can appreciate that sense of disappointment. No one will be under any illusions with Reform.
    That will just be Khan's Punishment Beatings Because We Stood Up For Our Freedom.
    No one should incur the wrath of Khan.
    Once more pb is ahead of the game. The Standard reports that someone or other has called for an end to the Freedom Pass.

    Calls to scrap Over-60s free travel after it 'costs £84m in lost revenue'
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/freedom-pass-over-60s-free-travel-cost-cuts-b1243075.html
    Does that make the mistake of assuming that each oldie would make as many trips as they would if it weren't 'free' (as if they weren't also council tax payers, of course)?
    That same article mentions that TfL has a £23m shortfall. If the pass is costing £84m removing it solves the shortfall problem at a stroke...

    Also this is a pass for those between 60 and 67. It doesn't offer the completely free travel you get as a pensioner it just allows those not yet in retirement to travel more cheaply than people in their 30/40/50s.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,431

    Carnyx said:

    stodge said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    Battlebus said:

    Have we discussed Reform's request to place some of their friends in the House of Lords. And if they were able to, would Nadine give up on Boris and join Reform?

    They can "request" whatever they like, it's not in their fief or power unless existing Peers set up a Reform group within the House of Lords. Nothing wrong with that if they chose so to do but it's the usual bleating from Reform who think because they are the top of the opinion polls, they are entitled to representation. That's not how politics works.

    We've also seen a concerted anti-London push from Reform in recent days with Reform councillors in neighbouring authorities advocating "re-uniting" London Boroughs with their pre-1965 counties so Havering with Essex, Bromley with Kent etc. I suppose there might be some vague nostalgia for that as there might be for Yugoslavia or Prussia but most residents are, I suspect, for all they might loathe Sadiq Khan currently, happier within London with their 60+ free travel (which I know is supported by everyone on here).
    So it would save money if Havering merged with Essex and Bromley merged with Kent - with the 60+ reform voter voting to remove their benefit.

    As someone subjected to Zone 9 (I.e. out of London tfl fares) for 35 years it would also allow TfL to charge significantly more for their tickets in those boroughs

    But it’s also the same on Teesside with anyone south of the Tees desperate to claim they are really in North Yorkshire
    For a party which strongly relies on older voters (not to the extent the Conservatives do but still) it would seem counter-intuitive for turkeys to vote for Christmas. Are we assuming Reform will allow the poor citizens any choice in this or will they just enact this through primary legislation and leave everyone else to clear up the mess? As we're seeing with the current round of re-organisation, these exercises involve a lot of spending before any meaningful benefit is realised.

    Just to clarify your understanding of how it works, boundaries have little or nothing to do with the 60+ Oystercard and Freedom pass. It's provided by Transport for London and can be used on TfL services whether those services are running inside Greater London or not. As an example, if I want to go to Sandown Park for an afternoon's racing and I don't want to pay for travel, I take the train to Surbiton and then catch the K3 bus (a TfL service) to Esher High Street and then walk to the track. I could pay to take the train to Esher but with my punting prowess, I need all the cash I can spare.

    IF Bromley ceased to be a London Borough but bus services (including the Croydon Tramlink and Overground rail) were still provided by Transport for London, 60+ Oyster cards and Freedom passes would still be valid on those services and people from other parts of London could still use them for nothing. The locals would have to pay.

    As usual with Reform "policies", it's incoherent and doesn't reflect the reality of how people live but apparently 30% of us want these clowns in Government. I suppose the one difference is some genuinely thought Boris Johnson and Keir Starmer might bring about some positive change and improve people's lives and I can appreciate that sense of disappointment. No one will be under any illusions with Reform.
    That will just be Khan's Punishment Beatings Because We Stood Up For Our Freedom.
    No one should incur the wrath of Khan.
    Once more pb is ahead of the game. The Standard reports that someone or other has called for an end to the Freedom Pass.

    Calls to scrap Over-60s free travel after it 'costs £84m in lost revenue'
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/freedom-pass-over-60s-free-travel-cost-cuts-b1243075.html
    Does that make the mistake of assuming that each oldie would make as many trips as they would if it weren't 'free' (as if they weren't also council tax payers, of course)?
    Of course it does. It lazily tots up the full fare of each free trip, without considering that many journeys would simply not have been made. Another hazard of taking data collected for one purpose and using it for quite another.
    That might well be to confuse strategy for lethargy.

    Most think tanks start from their desired conclusion and work back to some plausible-sounding data.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,854
    DavidL said:

    It still irritates me that the Americans insist on telling you that the difference between 47 and 52 is 5 (which might be classed as unnecessary information) and fail to tell us how these numbers compare with the last ones giving the direction of travel. Why on earth do they do this?

    Having said this, I got lured into watching a video yesterday when people in the street were being asked if a die was rolled 420 times how many 3s would you expect? The people getting it wrong included a teacher, allegedly. Innumeracy rules, apparently.

    .............and the answer is 70.....or dice have no memory? Is it a trick question?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 56,396

    FPT:

    >vino Posts: 194


    I went to a debate in 2006 (?) re ID cards - the "Pro" being Nick Palmer who was very good against the Tories & Lib Dems - at the end of the debate the motion to introduce ID cards was carried. <

    Thanks vino. I don't dismiss all fears about misuse of ID cards, but people who want to misuse personal information have plenty of ways to do it already. Not having a simple way of proving who you are is just a nuisance and gives an illusory sense of security.

    The massive violation of GDPR and all the rules about data security should be a red flag. If I created a system with such features, I would be legally liable. Serious fines, per offence.

    Strangely, every other country in Europe manages to have ID cards without committing crimes in the process.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,759

    scampi25 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Here's more recent polling that you won't hear Trump or Farage supporters mentioning.

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/692522/surge-concern-immigration-abated.aspx
    ...Americans have grown markedly more positive toward immigration over the past year, with the share wanting immigration reduced dropping from 55% in 2024 to 30% today. At the same time, a record-high 79% of U.S. adults say immigration is a good thing for the country.

    These shifts reverse a four-year trend of rising concern about immigration that began in 2021 and reflect changes among all major party groups...

    The paradox of the migration debate.

    Most people want the total numbers to fall, but don't want the numbers in most migration scenarios to fall. It's not quite "less migrants in theory but not in practice", but it's pretty close;

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/52704-is-there-public-support-for-large-scale-removals-of-migrants

    The way that most people square that circle is to massively overestimate the proportion of immigration that is irregular/illegal because the boats are so visible. From that YouGov link,

    Our research shows that almost half of Britons (47%) think there are more migrants staying in the UK illegally rather than legally, including fully a third of the public (32%) who think the illegal figure is “much higher”.

    As our American friends are currently discovering, anti-immigrant talk is much more popular than anti-immigrant action.
    The propensity of some people to believe stuff that simply isn't true never fails to astound me. It's not like it's hard to educate yourself on this stuff. The combination of cynical and malevolent politicians and gullible and stupid voters is a worrying one: we all know how this plays out in the worst case scenario and I for one don't want to be here if it does.
    Your arrogance and sense of superiority does little for your argument. A little humble pie??
    If I believed myself to be superior I would be less surprised at how frequently people believe stuff that is demonstrably false. I have an optimist's faith in human intelligence and am constantly disappointed.
    I'm wondering what the "PC" alternative is to expressing frustration with the gullible voters being exploited by cynical populist politicians. Say it's all very understandable given busy lives and lack of education? No, that's patronising 'poverty of low expectations' stuff. Think it but keep quiet for fear of looking snooty or causing offence? No, that's inauthentic and weak. Hit yourself on the head with a hammer and join them? Ok possibly worth considering - but has to be a plan Z.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,179
    Roger said:

    DavidL said:

    It still irritates me that the Americans insist on telling you that the difference between 47 and 52 is 5 (which might be classed as unnecessary information) and fail to tell us how these numbers compare with the last ones giving the direction of travel. Why on earth do they do this?

    Having said this, I got lured into watching a video yesterday when people in the street were being asked if a die was rolled 420 times how many 3s would you expect? The people getting it wrong included a teacher, allegedly. Innumeracy rules, apparently.

    .............and the answer is 70.....or dice have no memory? Is it a trick question?
    Ask the captain of the Indian cricket team how many times you are going to win the toss in a sequence of 15 matches, and what the chances are of losing all 15.

  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 13,370
    Morning all.
    @Penddu2 asked on the last thread if the Tories 7th in Cardiff last night was a record low for them....
    No, I haven't gone too far back but they came 8th and 9th (and last) in the two Highland by elections in June.
    They came 6tn in the other Cardiff by election since the LE in May iirc so Cardiff seems to be problematic for them to say the least. Cardiff North seems to be their 'best' Cardiff locality, 20% at the GE.
    Jesmond currently counting this morning.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 6,307

    FPT:

    >vino Posts: 194


    I went to a debate in 2006 (?) re ID cards - the "Pro" being Nick Palmer who was very good against the Tories & Lib Dems - at the end of the debate the motion to introduce ID cards was carried. <

    Thanks vino. I don't dismiss all fears about misuse of ID cards, but people who want to misuse personal information have plenty of ways to do it already. Not having a simple way of proving who you are is just a nuisance and gives an illusory sense of security.

    The massive violation of GDPR and all the rules about data security should be a red flag. If I created a system with such features, I would be legally liable. Serious fines, per offence.

    Strangely, every other country in Europe manages to have ID cards without committing crimes in the process.
    That’s because no other country between the UK and India has as much unnecessary bureaucracy, or people insisting on it.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,108

    stodge said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    Battlebus said:

    Have we discussed Reform's request to place some of their friends in the House of Lords. And if they were able to, would Nadine give up on Boris and join Reform?

    They can "request" whatever they like, it's not in their fief or power unless existing Peers set up a Reform group within the House of Lords. Nothing wrong with that if they chose so to do but it's the usual bleating from Reform who think because they are the top of the opinion polls, they are entitled to representation. That's not how politics works.

    We've also seen a concerted anti-London push from Reform in recent days with Reform councillors in neighbouring authorities advocating "re-uniting" London Boroughs with their pre-1965 counties so Havering with Essex, Bromley with Kent etc. I suppose there might be some vague nostalgia for that as there might be for Yugoslavia or Prussia but most residents are, I suspect, for all they might loathe Sadiq Khan currently, happier within London with their 60+ free travel (which I know is supported by everyone on here).
    So it would save money if Havering merged with Essex and Bromley merged with Kent - with the 60+ reform voter voting to remove their benefit.

    As someone subjected to Zone 9 (I.e. out of London tfl fares) for 35 years it would also allow TfL to charge significantly more for their tickets in those boroughs

    But it’s also the same on Teesside with anyone south of the Tees desperate to claim they are really in North Yorkshire
    For a party which strongly relies on older voters (not to the extent the Conservatives do but still) it would seem counter-intuitive for turkeys to vote for Christmas. Are we assuming Reform will allow the poor citizens any choice in this or will they just enact this through primary legislation and leave everyone else to clear up the mess? As we're seeing with the current round of re-organisation, these exercises involve a lot of spending before any meaningful benefit is realised.

    Just to clarify your understanding of how it works, boundaries have little or nothing to do with the 60+ Oystercard and Freedom pass. It's provided by Transport for London and can be used on TfL services whether those services are running inside Greater London or not. As an example, if I want to go to Sandown Park for an afternoon's racing and I don't want to pay for travel, I take the train to Surbiton and then catch the K3 bus (a TfL service) to Esher High Street and then walk to the track. I could pay to take the train to Esher but with my punting prowess, I need all the cash I can spare.

    IF Bromley ceased to be a London Borough but bus services (including the Croydon Tramlink and Overground rail) were still provided by Transport for London, 60+ Oyster cards and Freedom passes would still be valid on those services and people from other parts of London could still use them for nothing. The locals would have to pay.

    As usual with Reform "policies", it's incoherent and doesn't reflect the reality of how people live but apparently 30% of us want these clowns in Government. I suppose the one difference is some genuinely thought Boris Johnson and Keir Starmer might bring about some positive change and improve people's lives and I can appreciate that sense of disappointment. No one will be under any illusions with Reform.
    That will just be Khan's Punishment Beatings Because We Stood Up For Our Freedom.
    No one should incur the wrath of Khan.
    Once more pb is ahead of the game. The Standard reports that someone or other has called for an end to the Freedom Pass.

    Calls to scrap Over-60s free travel after it 'costs £84m in lost revenue'
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/freedom-pass-over-60s-free-travel-cost-cuts-b1243075.html
    The article is confusing at best.

    In London you have the 60+ Oyster which basically gives you free travel on TfL services wherever they operate and trains within the London boundary after 9am Monday to Friday and all day Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays and from 66 you have the Freedom Pass which is basically the same in London but can also be used on any bus service outside London as part of the English National Concessionary Bus Travel Scheme.

    Not surprisingly, the IEA want to get rid of the whole lot and make everyone pay full fares (presumably this would apply to children who currently free or discounted travel in London as well).

    It's the same debate as we had with the Winter Fuel Allowance - should the 60+ card be means tested which sounds like more costly bureaucracy and on what bases should it be tested, income, location, property value, etc?

    The perception is there are plenty of wealthy older people for whom this is a nice perk and they could afford to pay the fares - there's also the perception there are poor elderly people for whom it's a necessary lifeline to get out and about. Both are probably true and false in equal measure.

    TfL's shortfall isn't the fault of the 60+ Oyster card which was introduced by Ken or Boris in 2012. More likely is the fall off in customer numbers post pandemic. Even now, tube passenger numbers on weekdays are 80-85% of pre pandemic levels (weekend numbers however have recovered strongly). Now, you could argue the numbers disguise the level of evasion - some claim one in six journeys are fraudulent, it may be more, it may be less.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,403
    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    stodge said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    Battlebus said:

    Have we discussed Reform's request to place some of their friends in the House of Lords. And if they were able to, would Nadine give up on Boris and join Reform?

    They can "request" whatever they like, it's not in their fief or power unless existing Peers set up a Reform group within the House of Lords. Nothing wrong with that if they chose so to do but it's the usual bleating from Reform who think because they are the top of the opinion polls, they are entitled to representation. That's not how politics works.

    We've also seen a concerted anti-London push from Reform in recent days with Reform councillors in neighbouring authorities advocating "re-uniting" London Boroughs with their pre-1965 counties so Havering with Essex, Bromley with Kent etc. I suppose there might be some vague nostalgia for that as there might be for Yugoslavia or Prussia but most residents are, I suspect, for all they might loathe Sadiq Khan currently, happier within London with their 60+ free travel (which I know is supported by everyone on here).
    So it would save money if Havering merged with Essex and Bromley merged with Kent - with the 60+ reform voter voting to remove their benefit.

    As someone subjected to Zone 9 (I.e. out of London tfl fares) for 35 years it would also allow TfL to charge significantly more for their tickets in those boroughs

    But it’s also the same on Teesside with anyone south of the Tees desperate to claim they are really in North Yorkshire
    For a party which strongly relies on older voters (not to the extent the Conservatives do but still) it would seem counter-intuitive for turkeys to vote for Christmas. Are we assuming Reform will allow the poor citizens any choice in this or will they just enact this through primary legislation and leave everyone else to clear up the mess? As we're seeing with the current round of re-organisation, these exercises involve a lot of spending before any meaningful benefit is realised.

    Just to clarify your understanding of how it works, boundaries have little or nothing to do with the 60+ Oystercard and Freedom pass. It's provided by Transport for London and can be used on TfL services whether those services are running inside Greater London or not. As an example, if I want to go to Sandown Park for an afternoon's racing and I don't want to pay for travel, I take the train to Surbiton and then catch the K3 bus (a TfL service) to Esher High Street and then walk to the track. I could pay to take the train to Esher but with my punting prowess, I need all the cash I can spare.

    IF Bromley ceased to be a London Borough but bus services (including the Croydon Tramlink and Overground rail) were still provided by Transport for London, 60+ Oyster cards and Freedom passes would still be valid on those services and people from other parts of London could still use them for nothing. The locals would have to pay.

    As usual with Reform "policies", it's incoherent and doesn't reflect the reality of how people live but apparently 30% of us want these clowns in Government. I suppose the one difference is some genuinely thought Boris Johnson and Keir Starmer might bring about some positive change and improve people's lives and I can appreciate that sense of disappointment. No one will be under any illusions with Reform.
    That will just be Khan's Punishment Beatings Because We Stood Up For Our Freedom.
    No one should incur the wrath of Khan.
    Once more pb is ahead of the game. The Standard reports that someone or other has called for an end to the Freedom Pass.

    Calls to scrap Over-60s free travel after it 'costs £84m in lost revenue'
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/freedom-pass-over-60s-free-travel-cost-cuts-b1243075.html
    Does that make the mistake of assuming that each oldie would make as many trips as they would if it weren't 'free' (as if they weren't also council tax payers, of course)?
    Many don't partake of free bus passes as they prefer to go places in style.

    stodge said:

    Battlebus said:

    Have we discussed Reform's request to place some of their friends in the House of Lords. And if they were able to, would Nadine give up on Boris and join Reform?

    They can "request" whatever they like, it's not in their fief or power unless existing Peers set up a Reform group within the House of Lords. Nothing wrong with that if they chose so to do but it's the usual bleating from Reform who think because they are the top of the opinion polls, they are entitled to representation. That's not how politics works.

    We've also seen a concerted anti-London push from Reform in recent days with Reform councillors in neighbouring authorities advocating "re-uniting" London Boroughs with their pre-1965 counties so Havering with Essex, Bromley with Kent etc. I suppose there might be some vague nostalgia for that as there might be for Yugoslavia or Prussia but most residents are, I suspect, for all they might loathe Sadiq Khan currently, happier within London with their 60+ free travel (which I know is supported by everyone on here).
    Only nostalgia for the very old- Greater London was set up sixty years ago. Some of it is "Surrey/Kent/Essex, actually", it's part of some people's identity that they (or their family) moved out of London. Some of it is the natural human instinct to want an area they can control; the right win comfortably in Havering but don't have a chance in London as a whole.

    As for the travel thing, Hexit campaigners usually promise that will be kept. Somehow.

    Incidentally, Andrew Rosindell's latest local campaign is to oppose the formation of a massive borough of East London, taking in all of historic Essex in Greater London, with a massive permanent Labour majority bullying plucky little Romford. That's nonsense, isn't it?
    Heard Farage once banging on him recalling how everyone in his village being happier when it was in Kent.
    Despite the fact he was born in 1964. So has no memory of it.
    You'd have to be 65+.
    And about 80 to have any practical civic memory.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,917
    edited August 15
    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    Battlebus said:

    Have we discussed Reform's request to place some of their friends in the House of Lords. And if they were able to, would Nadine give up on Boris and join Reform?

    They can "request" whatever they like, it's not in their fief or power unless existing Peers set up a Reform group within the House of Lords. Nothing wrong with that if they chose so to do but it's the usual bleating from Reform who think because they are the top of the opinion polls, they are entitled to representation. That's not how politics works.

    We've also seen a concerted anti-London push from Reform in recent days with Reform councillors in neighbouring authorities advocating "re-uniting" London Boroughs with their pre-1965 counties so Havering with Essex, Bromley with Kent etc. I suppose there might be some vague nostalgia for that as there might be for Yugoslavia or Prussia but most residents are, I suspect, for all they might loathe Sadiq Khan currently, happier within London with their 60+ free travel (which I know is supported by everyone on here).
    So it would save money if Havering merged with Essex and Bromley merged with Kent - with the 60+ reform voter voting to remove their benefit.

    As someone subjected to Zone 9 (I.e. out of London tfl fares) for 35 years it would also allow TfL to charge significantly more for their tickets in those boroughs

    But it’s also the same on Teesside with anyone south of the Tees desperate to claim they are really in North Yorkshire
    For a party which strongly relies on older voters (not to the extent the Conservatives do but still) it would seem counter-intuitive for turkeys to vote for Christmas. Are we assuming Reform will allow the poor citizens any choice in this or will they just enact this through primary legislation and leave everyone else to clear up the mess? As we're seeing with the current round of re-organisation, these exercises involve a lot of spending before any meaningful benefit is realised.

    Just to clarify your understanding of how it works, boundaries have little or nothing to do with the 60+ Oystercard and Freedom pass. It's provided by Transport for London and can be used on TfL services whether those services are running inside Greater London or not. As an example, if I want to go to Sandown Park for an afternoon's racing and I don't want to pay for travel, I take the train to Surbiton and then catch the K3 bus (a TfL service) to Esher High Street and then walk to the track. I could pay to take the train to Esher but with my punting prowess, I need all the cash I can spare.

    IF Bromley ceased to be a London Borough but bus services (including the Croydon Tramlink and Overground rail) were still provided by Transport for London, 60+ Oyster cards and Freedom passes would still be valid on those services and people from other parts of London could still use them for nothing. The locals would have to pay.

    As usual with Reform "policies", it's incoherent and doesn't reflect the reality of how people live but apparently 30% of us want these clowns in Government. I suppose the one difference is some genuinely thought Boris Johnson and Keir Starmer might bring about some positive change and improve people's lives and I can appreciate that sense of disappointment. No one will be under any illusions with Reform.
    That will just be Khan's Punishment Beatings Because We Stood Up For Our Freedom.
    No one should incur the wrath of Khan.
    Once more pb is ahead of the game. The Standard reports that someone or other has called for an end to the Freedom Pass.

    Calls to scrap Over-60s free travel after it 'costs £84m in lost revenue'
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/freedom-pass-over-60s-free-travel-cost-cuts-b1243075.html
    The article is confusing at best.

    In London you have the 60+ Oyster which basically gives you free travel on TfL services wherever they operate and trains within the London boundary after 9am Monday to Friday and all day Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays and from 66 you have the Freedom Pass which is basically the same in London but can also be used on any bus service outside London as part of the English National Concessionary Bus Travel Scheme.

    Not surprisingly, the IEA want to get rid of the whole lot and make everyone pay full fares (presumably this would apply to children who currently free or discounted travel in London as well).

    It's the same debate as we had with the Winter Fuel Allowance - should the 60+ card be means tested which sounds like more costly bureaucracy and on what bases should it be tested, income, location, property value, etc?

    The perception is there are plenty of wealthy older people for whom this is a nice perk and they could afford to pay the fares - there's also the perception there are poor elderly people for whom it's a necessary lifeline to get out and about. Both are probably true and false in equal measure.

    TfL's shortfall isn't the fault of the 60+ Oyster card which was introduced by Ken or Boris in 2012. More likely is the fall off in customer numbers post pandemic. Even now, tube passenger numbers on weekdays are 80-85% of pre pandemic levels (weekend numbers however have recovered strongly). Now, you could argue the numbers disguise the level of evasion - some claim one in six journeys are fraudulent, it may be more, it may be less.
    It’s definitely not one in six journeys being fraudulent - I watch it going on at various lines and you can see it but it’s not 16% of travellers
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