This is the holocaust all over again. This time done by Jews.
Oh, but you who philosophize, disgrace and criticize all fears Bury the rag deep in your face for now's the time for your tears
It's horrendous. The Israelis have slaughtered more civilians in Gaza in two years than the Nazis killed in Bergen Belsen in four. And we're still listening to the tape of Richard Attenborough's heartbreaking broadcast 80 years on.
If you want a serious debate, rather than a rant - what do you honestly think the Gazans would do to Israeli Jews, given the chance?
And how do you see this being solved? What should Israel do, to bring this to a humane resolution?
Meh. You're apologising for genocide. There may not be a solution. There may not be a resolution. That doesn't make mass starvation okay.
F off. I'm not apologising. I'm just not gonna sit here and bleat, whine and virtuously signal my outrage, performatively. There needs to be a solution. The only solution that can satisfy all sides, at this late appalling stage, is what Trump said. Mad as that sounds
Fair enough. I read implicit justification for what David linked to in your post. If that was my misread, I apologise.
I think seeking solutions to the bigger problem at this stage is a fool's game, if it serves as any distraction at all from solving the immediate problem of forcing Israel and Egypt to let aid in so that fewer innocent people starve.
I wanted to make a proper apology for my post to you last night. It was totally uncalled for. I dipped into the thread, had a strong emotional reaction to David's post and then read your reply outside of the context of your other posts on the topic e.g. the one where you agree that young Gazans will inevitably be radicalised by what is currently going on.
Having now read back through the thread it was very clear that I wasn't justified in claiming you were apologising for genocide - I was reading a subtext that just wasn't there. Sorry.
That’s very gracious of you
The thing is I’ve made my feelings clear about this horror for years. I’ve seen Israel - personally, when visiting it - go from fairly admirable democracy to something closer to fascism (apartheid is certainly a valid comparison). But I’ve also witnessed the lurid anti-Semitism of the Palestinians - they really do want to drive the Jews into the sea
How do you solve that? You can’t. The two state idea (esp after October 7) is dead, it’s even more dead after this horrific assault on Gaza - Gazans will justifiably want revenge for generations
The only possible “solution” is Trump’s - even if people hate Trump. Give Gazans loads of money (much more than he suggests) and find them a home elsewhere. Away from Israel
It’s cruel and sad and unjust but I don’t see any other superior route that actually makes Gazan lives better. Or that acknowledges Israel’s now firm refusal to live alongside Palestinians
Hey Ho. I tried. I normally avoid this topic, I shall go back to ignoring it
Where do you send Palestinians?
One of the reasons the region is in the mess it is was that the trauma of the Holocaust understandably led Jews to seek a safe haven and country of their own elsewhere. If Palestinians are moved on to a home elsewhere you repeat the cycle.
I don't think there's any alternative to the hard work of peace-building, one day, one person at a time.
It would have to be away from the Middle East. Either North Africa - which might welcome the injection of investment - or even further. Indonesia?
I know this sounds like dreamland but then it needs a bit of dreaming to fix this
The alternative is more of the same for year after year, decade after decade. Even if the “west” prevails on Israel to let up right now, the Gazans will commit some terrible Jew-killing soon enough, then Israel will go at it again, and this satanic cycle will continue
Who benefits from that? Literally no one. Manufacturers of white phosphorus maybe
You're basically advocating a new Madagascar Plan (which few people realise was originally a pre-war French and Polish scheme) without having any idea where this Madagascar will be. Anywhere capable of supporting such a large population will already be settled, and dropping them into some wilderness and expecting them to build a new Birobidzhan out of nothing isn't realistic or acceptable nowadays.
Besides, tons of Irish left for the States after the various Irish uprisings, and those that became economically successful went on to sponsor and fund terrorism back in their home country for almost a century thereafter. Distance is not a guarantee of peace.
Trump is simply looking at the real estate possibilities of creating a coastal strip, like Florida or coastal NJ, in Gaza, and neither knows nor cares where the people who live there would go.
Well, I had a go at essaying a solution. That might actually work - rather than just venting and ranting and performatively weeping
I’m not saying my solution WILL work. I am saying I cannot see anyone else suggesting any other alternatives
But I shall now shut up on this subject, again. Whenever I get into this issue I am always briskly reminded why I usually avoid it
Time for coffee
Lets say you can get a ceasefire and somehow get a two state solution set up. How does Gaza/Palestine make its living in the modern world? What do they produce? What will boost their GDP figures? As I understand it Gaza is and has been basically an enormous camp relying on others.
So for a future state to succeed you need a plan for an economy, education, health and all the things.
Morning all. A bit of cricket nerdery following Pants injury. In 1986, England wicket keeper Bruce French was injured batting vs New Zealand and was replaced behind the stumps by retired 45 year old ex england keeper Bob Taylor who was in the crowd watching. The Hampshire keeper Bob Parks then took over from him for the remainder of the match, never otherwise being called up for England
I watched on telly (might have been highlights, cant recall) and remember Taylor being not too shabby for an OAP
This is the holocaust all over again. This time done by Jews.
Oh, but you who philosophize, disgrace and criticize all fears Bury the rag deep in your face for now's the time for your tears
It's horrendous. The Israelis have slaughtered more civilians in Gaza in two years than the Nazis killed in Bergen Belsen in four. And we're still listening to the tape of Richard Attenborough's heartbreaking broadcast 80 years on.
If you want a serious debate, rather than a rant - what do you honestly think the Gazans would do to Israeli Jews, given the chance?
And how do you see this being solved? What should Israel do, to bring this to a humane resolution?
Meh. You're apologising for genocide. There may not be a solution. There may not be a resolution. That doesn't make mass starvation okay.
F off. I'm not apologising. I'm just not gonna sit here and bleat, whine and virtuously signal my outrage, performatively. There needs to be a solution. The only solution that can satisfy all sides, at this late appalling stage, is what Trump said. Mad as that sounds
Fair enough. I read implicit justification for what David linked to in your post. If that was my misread, I apologise.
I think seeking solutions to the bigger problem at this stage is a fool's game, if it serves as any distraction at all from solving the immediate problem of forcing Israel and Egypt to let aid in so that fewer innocent people starve.
I wanted to make a proper apology for my post to you last night. It was totally uncalled for. I dipped into the thread, had a strong emotional reaction to David's post and then read your reply outside of the context of your other posts on the topic e.g. the one where you agree that young Gazans will inevitably be radicalised by what is currently going on.
Having now read back through the thread it was very clear that I wasn't justified in claiming you were apologising for genocide - I was reading a subtext that just wasn't there. Sorry.
That’s very gracious of you
The thing is I’ve made my feelings clear about this horror for years. I’ve seen Israel - personally, when visiting it - go from fairly admirable democracy to something closer to fascism (apartheid is certainly a valid comparison). But I’ve also witnessed the lurid anti-Semitism of the Palestinians - they really do want to drive the Jews into the sea
How do you solve that? You can’t. The two state idea (esp after October 7) is dead, it’s even more dead after this horrific assault on Gaza - Gazans will justifiably want revenge for generations
The only possible “solution” is Trump’s - even if people hate Trump. Give Gazans loads of money (much more than he suggests) and find them a home elsewhere. Away from Israel
It’s cruel and sad and unjust but I don’t see any other superior route that actually makes Gazan lives better. Or that acknowledges Israel’s now firm refusal to live alongside Palestinians
Hey Ho. I tried. I normally avoid this topic, I shall go back to ignoring it
Where do you send Palestinians?
One of the reasons the region is in the mess it is was that the trauma of the Holocaust understandably led Jews to seek a safe haven and country of their own elsewhere. If Palestinians are moved on to a home elsewhere you repeat the cycle.
I don't think there's any alternative to the hard work of peace-building, one day, one person at a time.
It would have to be away from the Middle East. Either North Africa - which might welcome the injection of investment - or even further. Indonesia?
I know this sounds like dreamland but then it needs a bit of dreaming to fix this
The alternative is more of the same for year after year, decade after decade. Even if the “west” prevails on Israel to let up right now, the Gazans will commit some terrible Jew-killing soon enough, then Israel will go at it again, and this satanic cycle will continue
Who benefits from that? Literally no one. Manufacturers of white phosphorus maybe
You're basically advocating a new Madagascar Plan (which few people realise was originally a pre-war French and Polish scheme) without having any idea where this Madagascar will be. Anywhere capable of supporting such a large population will already be settled, and dropping them into some wilderness and expecting them to build a new Birobidzhan out of nothing isn't realistic or acceptable nowadays.
Besides, tons of Irish left for the States after the various Irish uprisings, and those that became economically successful went on to sponsor and fund terrorism back in their home country for almost a century thereafter. Distance is not a guarantee of peace.
Trump is simply looking at the real estate possibilities of creating a coastal strip, like Florida or coastal NJ, in Gaza, and neither knows nor cares where the people who live there would go.
Well, I had a go at essaying a solution. That might actually work - rather than just venting and ranting and performatively weeping
I’m not saying my solution WILL work. I am saying I cannot see anyone else suggesting any other alternatives
But I shall now shut up on this subject, again. Whenever I get into this issue I am always briskly reminded why I usually avoid it
Time for coffee
Lets say you can get a ceasefire and somehow get a two state solution set up. How does Gaza/Palestine make its living in the modern world? What do they produce? What will boost their GDP figures? As I understand it Gaza is and has been basically an enormous camp relying on others.
So for a future state to succeed you need a plan for an economy, education, health and all the things.
I have no idea what that would be.
A Palestinian state as a whole has potential. It has power, water, a highly educated population, phenomenal potential for tourism, mineral resources in the Dead Sea and a strategic location between the Mediterranean to which it would have access and the landlocked states of Arabia.
The odds of a strong and stable government emerging or the Israelis giving them scope to exploit these features are approximately zero. Indeed, any Palestinian state looks to have all the makings of another Somalia right in one of the world's most sensitive hotspots.
This is the holocaust all over again. This time done by Jews.
Oh, but you who philosophize, disgrace and criticize all fears Bury the rag deep in your face for now's the time for your tears
It's horrendous. The Israelis have slaughtered more civilians in Gaza in two years than the Nazis killed in Bergen Belsen in four. And we're still listening to the tape of Richard Attenborough's heartbreaking broadcast 80 years on.
If you want a serious debate, rather than a rant - what do you honestly think the Gazans would do to Israeli Jews, given the chance?
And how do you see this being solved? What should Israel do, to bring this to a humane resolution?
Meh. You're apologising for genocide. There may not be a solution. There may not be a resolution. That doesn't make mass starvation okay.
F off. I'm not apologising. I'm just not gonna sit here and bleat, whine and virtuously signal my outrage, performatively. There needs to be a solution. The only solution that can satisfy all sides, at this late appalling stage, is what Trump said. Mad as that sounds
Fair enough. I read implicit justification for what David linked to in your post. If that was my misread, I apologise.
I think seeking solutions to the bigger problem at this stage is a fool's game, if it serves as any distraction at all from solving the immediate problem of forcing Israel and Egypt to let aid in so that fewer innocent people starve.
I wanted to make a proper apology for my post to you last night. It was totally uncalled for. I dipped into the thread, had a strong emotional reaction to David's post and then read your reply outside of the context of your other posts on the topic e.g. the one where you agree that young Gazans will inevitably be radicalised by what is currently going on.
Having now read back through the thread it was very clear that I wasn't justified in claiming you were apologising for genocide - I was reading a subtext that just wasn't there. Sorry.
That’s very gracious of you
The thing is I’ve made my feelings clear about this horror for years. I’ve seen Israel - personally, when visiting it - go from fairly admirable democracy to something closer to fascism (apartheid is certainly a valid comparison). But I’ve also witnessed the lurid anti-Semitism of the Palestinians - they really do want to drive the Jews into the sea
How do you solve that? You can’t. The two state idea (esp after October 7) is dead, it’s even more dead after this horrific assault on Gaza - Gazans will justifiably want revenge for generations
The only possible “solution” is Trump’s - even if people hate Trump. Give Gazans loads of money (much more than he suggests) and find them a home elsewhere. Away from Israel
It’s cruel and sad and unjust but I don’t see any other superior route that actually makes Gazan lives better. Or that acknowledges Israel’s now firm refusal to live alongside Palestinians
Hey Ho. I tried. I normally avoid this topic, I shall go back to ignoring it
Where do you send Palestinians?
One of the reasons the region is in the mess it is was that the trauma of the Holocaust understandably led Jews to seek a safe haven and country of their own elsewhere. If Palestinians are moved on to a home elsewhere you repeat the cycle.
I don't think there's any alternative to the hard work of peace-building, one day, one person at a time.
It would have to be away from the Middle East. Either North Africa - which might welcome the injection of investment - or even further. Indonesia?
I know this sounds like dreamland but then it needs a bit of dreaming to fix this
The alternative is more of the same for year after year, decade after decade. Even if the “west” prevails on Israel to let up right now, the Gazans will commit some terrible Jew-killing soon enough, then Israel will go at it again, and this satanic cycle will continue
Who benefits from that? Literally no one. Manufacturers of white phosphorus maybe
You're basically advocating a new Madagascar Plan (which few people realise was originally a pre-war French and Polish scheme) without having any idea where this Madagascar will be. Anywhere capable of supporting such a large population will already be settled, and dropping them into some wilderness and expecting them to build a new Birobidzhan out of nothing isn't realistic or acceptable nowadays.
Besides, tons of Irish left for the States after the various Irish uprisings, and those that became economically successful went on to sponsor and fund terrorism back in their home country for almost a century thereafter. Distance is not a guarantee of peace.
Trump is simply looking at the real estate possibilities of creating a coastal strip, like Florida or coastal NJ, in Gaza, and neither knows nor cares where the people who live there would go.
Well, I had a go at essaying a solution. That might actually work - rather than just venting and ranting and performatively weeping
I’m not saying my solution WILL work. I am saying I cannot see anyone else suggesting any other alternatives
But I shall now shut up on this subject, again. Whenever I get into this issue I am always briskly reminded why I usually avoid it
Time for coffee
Lets say you can get a ceasefire and somehow get a two state solution set up. How does Gaza/Palestine make its living in the modern world? What do they produce? What will boost their GDP figures? As I understand it Gaza is and has been basically an enormous camp relying on others.
So for a future state to succeed you need a plan for an economy, education, health and all the things.
I have no idea what that would be.
WHAT CURRENCY WILL THEY USE?!! Etc. I’d imagine if they get the amount of subsidy (not to be used for naughty guns & bombs of course) that Israel gets off the USA they might be ok.
This is the holocaust all over again. This time done by Jews.
Oh, but you who philosophize, disgrace and criticize all fears Bury the rag deep in your face for now's the time for your tears
It's horrendous. The Israelis have slaughtered more civilians in Gaza in two years than the Nazis killed in Bergen Belsen in four. And we're still listening to the tape of Richard Attenborough's heartbreaking broadcast 80 years on.
If you want a serious debate, rather than a rant - what do you honestly think the Gazans would do to Israeli Jews, given the chance?
And how do you see this being solved? What should Israel do, to bring this to a humane resolution?
Meh. You're apologising for genocide. There may not be a solution. There may not be a resolution. That doesn't make mass starvation okay.
F off. I'm not apologising. I'm just not gonna sit here and bleat, whine and virtuously signal my outrage, performatively. There needs to be a solution. The only solution that can satisfy all sides, at this late appalling stage, is what Trump said. Mad as that sounds
Fair enough. I read implicit justification for what David linked to in your post. If that was my misread, I apologise.
I think seeking solutions to the bigger problem at this stage is a fool's game, if it serves as any distraction at all from solving the immediate problem of forcing Israel and Egypt to let aid in so that fewer innocent people starve.
I wanted to make a proper apology for my post to you last night. It was totally uncalled for. I dipped into the thread, had a strong emotional reaction to David's post and then read your reply outside of the context of your other posts on the topic e.g. the one where you agree that young Gazans will inevitably be radicalised by what is currently going on.
Having now read back through the thread it was very clear that I wasn't justified in claiming you were apologising for genocide - I was reading a subtext that just wasn't there. Sorry.
That’s very gracious of you
The thing is I’ve made my feelings clear about this horror for years. I’ve seen Israel - personally, when visiting it - go from fairly admirable democracy to something closer to fascism (apartheid is certainly a valid comparison). But I’ve also witnessed the lurid anti-Semitism of the Palestinians - they really do want to drive the Jews into the sea
How do you solve that? You can’t. The two state idea (esp after October 7) is dead, it’s even more dead after this horrific assault on Gaza - Gazans will justifiably want revenge for generations
The only possible “solution” is Trump’s - even if people hate Trump. Give Gazans loads of money (much more than he suggests) and find them a home elsewhere. Away from Israel
It’s cruel and sad and unjust but I don’t see any other superior route that actually makes Gazan lives better. Or that acknowledges Israel’s now firm refusal to live alongside Palestinians
Hey Ho. I tried. I normally avoid this topic, I shall go back to ignoring it
Where do you send Palestinians?
One of the reasons the region is in the mess it is was that the trauma of the Holocaust understandably led Jews to seek a safe haven and country of their own elsewhere. If Palestinians are moved on to a home elsewhere you repeat the cycle.
I don't think there's any alternative to the hard work of peace-building, one day, one person at a time.
It would have to be away from the Middle East. Either North Africa - which might welcome the injection of investment - or even further. Indonesia?
I know this sounds like dreamland but then it needs a bit of dreaming to fix this
The alternative is more of the same for year after year, decade after decade. Even if the “west” prevails on Israel to let up right now, the Gazans will commit some terrible Jew-killing soon enough, then Israel will go at it again, and this satanic cycle will continue
Who benefits from that? Literally no one. Manufacturers of white phosphorus maybe
You're basically advocating a new Madagascar Plan (which few people realise was originally a pre-war French and Polish scheme) without having any idea where this Madagascar will be. Anywhere capable of supporting such a large population will already be settled, and dropping them into some wilderness and expecting them to build a new Birobidzhan out of nothing isn't realistic or acceptable nowadays.
Besides, tons of Irish left for the States after the various Irish uprisings, and those that became economically successful went on to sponsor and fund terrorism back in their home country for almost a century thereafter. Distance is not a guarantee of peace.
Trump is simply looking at the real estate possibilities of creating a coastal strip, like Florida or coastal NJ, in Gaza, and neither knows nor cares where the people who live there would go.
Well, I had a go at essaying a solution. That might actually work - rather than just venting and ranting and performatively weeping
I’m not saying my solution WILL work. I am saying I cannot see anyone else suggesting any other alternatives
But I shall now shut up on this subject, again. Whenever I get into this issue I am always briskly reminded why I usually avoid it
Time for coffee
Lets say you can get a ceasefire and somehow get a two state solution set up. How does Gaza/Palestine make its living in the modern world? What do they produce? What will boost their GDP figures? As I understand it Gaza is and has been basically an enormous camp relying on others.
So for a future state to succeed you need a plan for an economy, education, health and all the things.
I have no idea what that would be.
WHAT CURRENCY WILL THEY USE?!! Etc. I’d imagine if they get the amount of subsidy (not to be used for naughty guns & bombs of course) that Israel gets off the USA they might be ok.
It actually has no currency now, and any one of three monies are accepted: US dollars, Israeli shekels and Jordanian dinars.
Morning all. A bit of cricket nerdery following Pants injury. In 1986, England wicket keeper Bruce French was injured batting vs New Zealand and was replaced behind the stumps by retired 45 year old ex england keeper Bob Taylor who was in the crowd watching. The Hampshire keeper Bob Parks then took over from him for the remainder of the match, never otherwise being called up for England
I watched on telly (might have been highlights, cant recall) and remember Taylor being not too shabby for an OAP
Morning all. A bit of cricket nerdery following Pants injury. In 1986, England wicket keeper Bruce French was injured batting vs New Zealand and was replaced behind the stumps by retired 45 year old ex england keeper Bob Taylor who was in the crowd watching. The Hampshire keeper Bob Parks then took over from him for the remainder of the match, never otherwise being called up for England
I watched on telly (might have been highlights, cant recall) and remember Taylor being not too shabby for an OAP
This is the holocaust all over again. This time done by Jews.
Oh, but you who philosophize, disgrace and criticize all fears Bury the rag deep in your face for now's the time for your tears
It's horrendous. The Israelis have slaughtered more civilians in Gaza in two years than the Nazis killed in Bergen Belsen in four. And we're still listening to the tape of Richard Attenborough's heartbreaking broadcast 80 years on.
If you want a serious debate, rather than a rant - what do you honestly think the Gazans would do to Israeli Jews, given the chance?
And how do you see this being solved? What should Israel do, to bring this to a humane resolution?
Meh. You're apologising for genocide. There may not be a solution. There may not be a resolution. That doesn't make mass starvation okay.
F off. I'm not apologising. I'm just not gonna sit here and bleat, whine and virtuously signal my outrage, performatively. There needs to be a solution. The only solution that can satisfy all sides, at this late appalling stage, is what Trump said. Mad as that sounds
Fair enough. I read implicit justification for what David linked to in your post. If that was my misread, I apologise.
I think seeking solutions to the bigger problem at this stage is a fool's game, if it serves as any distraction at all from solving the immediate problem of forcing Israel and Egypt to let aid in so that fewer innocent people starve.
I wanted to make a proper apology for my post to you last night. It was totally uncalled for. I dipped into the thread, had a strong emotional reaction to David's post and then read your reply outside of the context of your other posts on the topic e.g. the one where you agree that young Gazans will inevitably be radicalised by what is currently going on.
Having now read back through the thread it was very clear that I wasn't justified in claiming you were apologising for genocide - I was reading a subtext that just wasn't there. Sorry.
That’s very gracious of you
The thing is I’ve made my feelings clear about this horror for years. I’ve seen Israel - personally, when visiting it - go from fairly admirable democracy to something closer to fascism (apartheid is certainly a valid comparison). But I’ve also witnessed the lurid anti-Semitism of the Palestinians - they really do want to drive the Jews into the sea
How do you solve that? You can’t. The two state idea (esp after October 7) is dead, it’s even more dead after this horrific assault on Gaza - Gazans will justifiably want revenge for generations
The only possible “solution” is Trump’s - even if people hate Trump. Give Gazans loads of money (much more than he suggests) and find them a home elsewhere. Away from Israel
It’s cruel and sad and unjust but I don’t see any other superior route that actually makes Gazan lives better. Or that acknowledges Israel’s now firm refusal to live alongside Palestinians
Hey Ho. I tried. I normally avoid this topic, I shall go back to ignoring it
Dismal, depressing, and probably correct.
There are many examples of longstanding ethnic tensions being resolved successfully, and others of being resolved maybe not so successfully, but enough to stop the killings: Northern Ireland, the Basque country, South Tyrol, Malaysia, etc. I think one can and should have more hope, rather than thinking that ethnic cleansing is ever a good idea.
Yes, achieved by cutting the ground from beneath the terrorists by addressing the social and economic grievances of the host population and providing meaningful ways for them to have some control over their destiny. Slow, painstaking work that is impossible with the Israel we have now.
This is the holocaust all over again. This time done by Jews.
Oh, but you who philosophize, disgrace and criticize all fears Bury the rag deep in your face for now's the time for your tears
It's horrendous. The Israelis have slaughtered more civilians in Gaza in two years than the Nazis killed in Bergen Belsen in four. And we're still listening to the tape of Richard Attenborough's heartbreaking broadcast 80 years on.
If you want a serious debate, rather than a rant - what do you honestly think the Gazans would do to Israeli Jews, given the chance?
And how do you see this being solved? What should Israel do, to bring this to a humane resolution?
Meh. You're apologising for genocide. There may not be a solution. There may not be a resolution. That doesn't make mass starvation okay.
F off. I'm not apologising. I'm just not gonna sit here and bleat, whine and virtuously signal my outrage, performatively. There needs to be a solution. The only solution that can satisfy all sides, at this late appalling stage, is what Trump said. Mad as that sounds
Fair enough. I read implicit justification for what David linked to in your post. If that was my misread, I apologise.
I think seeking solutions to the bigger problem at this stage is a fool's game, if it serves as any distraction at all from solving the immediate problem of forcing Israel and Egypt to let aid in so that fewer innocent people starve.
I wanted to make a proper apology for my post to you last night. It was totally uncalled for. I dipped into the thread, had a strong emotional reaction to David's post and then read your reply outside of the context of your other posts on the topic e.g. the one where you agree that young Gazans will inevitably be radicalised by what is currently going on.
Having now read back through the thread it was very clear that I wasn't justified in claiming you were apologising for genocide - I was reading a subtext that just wasn't there. Sorry.
That’s very gracious of you
The thing is I’ve made my feelings clear about this horror for years. I’ve seen Israel - personally, when visiting it - go from fairly admirable democracy to something closer to fascism (apartheid is certainly a valid comparison). But I’ve also witnessed the lurid anti-Semitism of the Palestinians - they really do want to drive the Jews into the sea
How do you solve that? You can’t. The two state idea (esp after October 7) is dead, it’s even more dead after this horrific assault on Gaza - Gazans will justifiably want revenge for generations
The only possible “solution” is Trump’s - even if people hate Trump. Give Gazans loads of money (much more than he suggests) and find them a home elsewhere. Away from Israel
It’s cruel and sad and unjust but I don’t see any other superior route that actually makes Gazan lives better. Or that acknowledges Israel’s now firm refusal to live alongside Palestinians
Hey Ho. I tried. I normally avoid this topic, I shall go back to ignoring it
Where do you send Palestinians?
One of the reasons the region is in the mess it is was that the trauma of the Holocaust understandably led Jews to seek a safe haven and country of their own elsewhere. If Palestinians are moved on to a home elsewhere you repeat the cycle.
I don't think there's any alternative to the hard work of peace-building, one day, one person at a time.
It would have to be away from the Middle East. Either North Africa - which might welcome the injection of investment - or even further. Indonesia?
I know this sounds like dreamland but then it needs a bit of dreaming to fix this
The alternative is more of the same for year after year, decade after decade. Even if the “west” prevails on Israel to let up right now, the Gazans will commit some terrible Jew-killing soon enough, then Israel will go at it again, and this satanic cycle will continue
Who benefits from that? Literally no one. Manufacturers of white phosphorus maybe
You're basically advocating a new Madagascar Plan (which few people realise was originally a pre-war French and Polish scheme) without having any idea where this Madagascar will be. Anywhere capable of supporting such a large population will already be settled, and dropping them into some wilderness and expecting them to build a new Birobidzhan out of nothing isn't realistic or acceptable nowadays.
Besides, tons of Irish left for the States after the various Irish uprisings, and those that became economically successful went on to sponsor and fund terrorism back in their home country for almost a century thereafter. Distance is not a guarantee of peace.
Trump is simply looking at the real estate possibilities of creating a coastal strip, like Florida or coastal NJ, in Gaza, and neither knows nor cares where the people who live there would go.
Well, I had a go at essaying a solution. That might actually work - rather than just venting and ranting and performatively weeping
I’m not saying my solution WILL work. I am saying I cannot see anyone else suggesting any other alternatives
But I shall now shut up on this subject, again. Whenever I get into this issue I am always briskly reminded why I usually avoid it
Time for coffee
Lets say you can get a ceasefire and somehow get a two state solution set up. How does Gaza/Palestine make its living in the modern world? What do they produce? What will boost their GDP figures? As I understand it Gaza is and has been basically an enormous camp relying on others.
So for a future state to succeed you need a plan for an economy, education, health and all the things.
I have no idea what that would be.
A Palestinian state as a whole has potential. It has power, water, a highly educated population, phenomenal potential for tourism, mineral resources in the Dead Sea and a strategic location between the Mediterranean to which it would have access and the landlocked states of Arabia.
The odds of a strong and stable government emerging or the Israelis giving them scope to exploit these features are approximately zero. Indeed, any Palestinian state looks to have all the makings of another Somalia right in one of the world's most sensitive hotspots.
Also some small offshore gas fields, which the Israelis keep trying to license.
Morning all. A bit of cricket nerdery following Pants injury. In 1986, England wicket keeper Bruce French was injured batting vs New Zealand and was replaced behind the stumps by retired 45 year old ex england keeper Bob Taylor who was in the crowd watching. The Hampshire keeper Bob Parks then took over from him for the remainder of the match, never otherwise being called up for England
I watched on telly (might have been highlights, cant recall) and remember Taylor being not too shabby for an OAP
This is the holocaust all over again. This time done by Jews.
Oh, but you who philosophize, disgrace and criticize all fears Bury the rag deep in your face for now's the time for your tears
It's horrendous. The Israelis have slaughtered more civilians in Gaza in two years than the Nazis killed in Bergen Belsen in four. And we're still listening to the tape of Richard Attenborough's heartbreaking broadcast 80 years on.
If you want a serious debate, rather than a rant - what do you honestly think the Gazans would do to Israeli Jews, given the chance?
And how do you see this being solved? What should Israel do, to bring this to a humane resolution?
Meh. You're apologising for genocide. There may not be a solution. There may not be a resolution. That doesn't make mass starvation okay.
F off. I'm not apologising. I'm just not gonna sit here and bleat, whine and virtuously signal my outrage, performatively. There needs to be a solution. The only solution that can satisfy all sides, at this late appalling stage, is what Trump said. Mad as that sounds
Fair enough. I read implicit justification for what David linked to in your post. If that was my misread, I apologise.
I think seeking solutions to the bigger problem at this stage is a fool's game, if it serves as any distraction at all from solving the immediate problem of forcing Israel and Egypt to let aid in so that fewer innocent people starve.
I wanted to make a proper apology for my post to you last night. It was totally uncalled for. I dipped into the thread, had a strong emotional reaction to David's post and then read your reply outside of the context of your other posts on the topic e.g. the one where you agree that young Gazans will inevitably be radicalised by what is currently going on.
Having now read back through the thread it was very clear that I wasn't justified in claiming you were apologising for genocide - I was reading a subtext that just wasn't there. Sorry.
That’s very gracious of you
The thing is I’ve made my feelings clear about this horror for years. I’ve seen Israel - personally, when visiting it - go from fairly admirable democracy to something closer to fascism (apartheid is certainly a valid comparison). But I’ve also witnessed the lurid anti-Semitism of the Palestinians - they really do want to drive the Jews into the sea
How do you solve that? You can’t. The two state idea (esp after October 7) is dead, it’s even more dead after this horrific assault on Gaza - Gazans will justifiably want revenge for generations
The only possible “solution” is Trump’s - even if people hate Trump. Give Gazans loads of money (much more than he suggests) and find them a home elsewhere. Away from Israel
It’s cruel and sad and unjust but I don’t see any other superior route that actually makes Gazan lives better. Or that acknowledges Israel’s now firm refusal to live alongside Palestinians
Hey Ho. I tried. I normally avoid this topic, I shall go back to ignoring it
Where do you send Palestinians?
One of the reasons the region is in the mess it is was that the trauma of the Holocaust understandably led Jews to seek a safe haven and country of their own elsewhere. If Palestinians are moved on to a home elsewhere you repeat the cycle.
I don't think there's any alternative to the hard work of peace-building, one day, one person at a time.
It would have to be away from the Middle East. Either North Africa - which might welcome the injection of investment - or even further. Indonesia?
I know this sounds like dreamland but then it needs a bit of dreaming to fix this
The alternative is more of the same for year after year, decade after decade. Even if the “west” prevails on Israel to let up right now, the Gazans will commit some terrible Jew-killing soon enough, then Israel will go at it again, and this satanic cycle will continue
Who benefits from that? Literally no one. Manufacturers of white phosphorus maybe
You're basically advocating a new Madagascar Plan (which few people realise was originally a pre-war French and Polish scheme) without having any idea where this Madagascar will be. Anywhere capable of supporting such a large population will already be settled, and dropping them into some wilderness and expecting them to build a new Birobidzhan out of nothing isn't realistic or acceptable nowadays.
Besides, tons of Irish left for the States after the various Irish uprisings, and those that became economically successful went on to sponsor and fund terrorism back in their home country for almost a century thereafter. Distance is not a guarantee of peace.
Trump is simply looking at the real estate possibilities of creating a coastal strip, like Florida or coastal NJ, in Gaza, and neither knows nor cares where the people who live there would go.
Well, I had a go at essaying a solution. That might actually work - rather than just venting and ranting and performatively weeping
I’m not saying my solution WILL work. I am saying I cannot see anyone else suggesting any other alternatives
But I shall now shut up on this subject, again. Whenever I get into this issue I am always briskly reminded why I usually avoid it
Time for coffee
How about a one-state solution. Palestinians need work and Israel needs the workers. Just call everyone Israeli and give them a vote. Let the democratic will of all of them make the decisions without the continued interference from outside.
It will deal a blow to the munitions industry but it may be worth it.
Farage probably has a 27% rating with women because he comes across as a bit of a nerd to them. Maybe he needs to start doing and talking about anti-nerd things, whatever they might be.
I see despite cries of l’m a gonna stop talking about Gaza the same folk are still talking about Gaza, if in a somewhat recurrent manner. We should all take pretendy centrist dad Nick Tyrone’s advice and concentrate on the really important stuff, eg us being bad at railways.
He does have a point about UKG rail investment in the north, esp, the north-east. ISTR it was something stupid like 32.5p a head annually for the Northumbrians, Geordies, Mackems etc. for many years while Londoners and inner Home Countiers had trillions of times as much flung at them. Mr Sunak's scrapping of major investment feeding from the core HS2 line might well have been a tad tactless esp, for anyone worried about Mr Farage nibbling at his electoral nuts.
This is the holocaust all over again. This time done by Jews.
Oh, but you who philosophize, disgrace and criticize all fears Bury the rag deep in your face for now's the time for your tears
It's horrendous. The Israelis have slaughtered more civilians in Gaza in two years than the Nazis killed in Bergen Belsen in four. And we're still listening to the tape of Richard Attenborough's heartbreaking broadcast 80 years on.
If you want a serious debate, rather than a rant - what do you honestly think the Gazans would do to Israeli Jews, given the chance?
And how do you see this being solved? What should Israel do, to bring this to a humane resolution?
Meh. You're apologising for genocide. There may not be a solution. There may not be a resolution. That doesn't make mass starvation okay.
F off. I'm not apologising. I'm just not gonna sit here and bleat, whine and virtuously signal my outrage, performatively. There needs to be a solution. The only solution that can satisfy all sides, at this late appalling stage, is what Trump said. Mad as that sounds
Fair enough. I read implicit justification for what David linked to in your post. If that was my misread, I apologise.
I think seeking solutions to the bigger problem at this stage is a fool's game, if it serves as any distraction at all from solving the immediate problem of forcing Israel and Egypt to let aid in so that fewer innocent people starve.
I wanted to make a proper apology for my post to you last night. It was totally uncalled for. I dipped into the thread, had a strong emotional reaction to David's post and then read your reply outside of the context of your other posts on the topic e.g. the one where you agree that young Gazans will inevitably be radicalised by what is currently going on.
Having now read back through the thread it was very clear that I wasn't justified in claiming you were apologising for genocide - I was reading a subtext that just wasn't there. Sorry.
That’s very gracious of you
The thing is I’ve made my feelings clear about this horror for years. I’ve seen Israel - personally, when visiting it - go from fairly admirable democracy to something closer to fascism (apartheid is certainly a valid comparison). But I’ve also witnessed the lurid anti-Semitism of the Palestinians - they really do want to drive the Jews into the sea
How do you solve that? You can’t. The two state idea (esp after October 7) is dead, it’s even more dead after this horrific assault on Gaza - Gazans will justifiably want revenge for generations
The only possible “solution” is Trump’s - even if people hate Trump. Give Gazans loads of money (much more than he suggests) and find them a home elsewhere. Away from Israel
It’s cruel and sad and unjust but I don’t see any other superior route that actually makes Gazan lives better. Or that acknowledges Israel’s now firm refusal to live alongside Palestinians
Hey Ho. I tried. I normally avoid this topic, I shall go back to ignoring it
Where do you send Palestinians?
One of the reasons the region is in the mess it is was that the trauma of the Holocaust understandably led Jews to seek a safe haven and country of their own elsewhere. If Palestinians are moved on to a home elsewhere you repeat the cycle.
I don't think there's any alternative to the hard work of peace-building, one day, one person at a time.
It would have to be away from the Middle East. Either North Africa - which might welcome the injection of investment - or even further. Indonesia?
I know this sounds like dreamland but then it needs a bit of dreaming to fix this
The alternative is more of the same for year after year, decade after decade. Even if the “west” prevails on Israel to let up right now, the Gazans will commit some terrible Jew-killing soon enough, then Israel will go at it again, and this satanic cycle will continue
Who benefits from that? Literally no one. Manufacturers of white phosphorus maybe
You're basically advocating a new Madagascar Plan (which few people realise was originally a pre-war French and Polish scheme) without having any idea where this Madagascar will be. Anywhere capable of supporting such a large population will already be settled, and dropping them into some wilderness and expecting them to build a new Birobidzhan out of nothing isn't realistic or acceptable nowadays.
Besides, tons of Irish left for the States after the various Irish uprisings, and those that became economically successful went on to sponsor and fund terrorism back in their home country for almost a century thereafter. Distance is not a guarantee of peace.
Trump is simply looking at the real estate possibilities of creating a coastal strip, like Florida or coastal NJ, in Gaza, and neither knows nor cares where the people who live there would go.
Well, I had a go at essaying a solution. That might actually work - rather than just venting and ranting and performatively weeping
I’m not saying my solution WILL work. I am saying I cannot see anyone else suggesting any other alternatives
But I shall now shut up on this subject, again. Whenever I get into this issue I am always briskly reminded why I usually avoid it
Time for coffee
How about a one-state solution. Palestinians need work and Israel needs the workers. Just call everyone Israeli and give them a vote. Let the democratic will of all of them make the decisions without the continued interference from outside.
It will deal a blow to the munitions industry but it may be worth it.
The inconsistent triad.
Most Israelis want a state that is Jewish, democratic and stretches from the Jordan to the Med.*
But only any two of those are possible.
1) If it's Jewish and covers the whole of the old mandate, it can't be democratic.
2) If it covers the whole of the old mandate and is democratic, it won't be Jewish.
3) If it's Jewish and democratic, therefore, it cannot be all of the old mandate.
@PaulBrandITV Zarah Sultana clarifies that her new party with Jeremy Corbyn is not called 'Your Party', that appears to just be the weblink. We don't know what it is called yet.
@PaulBrandITV Zarah Sultana clarifies that her new party with Jeremy Corbyn is not called 'Your Party', that appears to just be the weblink. We don't know what it is called yet.
It’s proper name is surely “a disaster for the Labour Party”
Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me every damn time ... I'm a GOP 'moderate'.
GOP Sen. Lisa Murkowski says she feels “cheated” after winning clean energy concessions in Trump’s “Big Beautiful Bill” for her vote, only to see him undercut it days later with an executive order:
@PaulBrandITV Zarah Sultana clarifies that her new party with Jeremy Corbyn is not called 'Your Party', that appears to just be the weblink. We don't know what it is called yet.
It’s proper name is surely “a disaster for the Labour Party”
@PaulBrandITV Zarah Sultana clarifies that her new party with Jeremy Corbyn is not called 'Your Party', that appears to just be the weblink. We don't know what it is called yet.
@PaulBrandITV Zarah Sultana clarifies that her new party with Jeremy Corbyn is not called 'Your Party', that appears to just be the weblink. We don't know what it is called yet.
It’s proper name is surely “a disaster for the Labour Party”
@PaulBrandITV Zarah Sultana clarifies that her new party with Jeremy Corbyn is not called 'Your Party', that appears to just be the weblink. We don't know what it is called yet.
Isak not in Toon squad for Asia tour and is apparently pushing to leave. This is a Bale leaving Spurs moment to be honest. If he wants to go then he should be sold ASAP but not to the bin dippers.
The final ninety seconds of that clip are absolutely incredible. The Labour MPs are smirking, dumbfounded at Starmer’s answers, while he ends up with his jaw slack, looking like he’s just been told his kids aren’t his
Like I said, I expect Starmer to retire early, like Wilson.
@PaulBrandITV Zarah Sultana clarifies that her new party with Jeremy Corbyn is not called 'Your Party', that appears to just be the weblink. We don't know what it is called yet.
The Sultana Party not the "currant" title, then?
Forget about the name, surely the big question is what will be their raisin d'etre?
Interesting phone in on this subject on radio Scotland yesterday morning. Not an easy problem to sort, apart from Highlands/Skye and Edinburgh, lots of Scotland has plenty more capacity.
Its easy to put a tourist tax on air b and b costs, much harder for camper vans in remote lay bys
@PaulBrandITV Zarah Sultana clarifies that her new party with Jeremy Corbyn is not called 'Your Party', that appears to just be the weblink. We don't know what it is called yet.
The Sultana Party not the "currant" title, then?
Forget about the name, surely the big question is what will be their raisin d'etre?
@PaulBrandITV Zarah Sultana clarifies that her new party with Jeremy Corbyn is not called 'Your Party', that appears to just be the weblink. We don't know what it is called yet.
The Sultana Party not the "currant" title, then?
Forget about the name, surely the big question is what will be their raisin d'etre?
Isak not in Toon squad for Asia tour and is apparently pushing to leave. This is a Bale leaving Spurs moment to be honest. If he wants to go then he should be sold ASAP but not to the bin dippers.
Bin dippers?
You use poverty smears, oh I forget you’re happy to take Saudi blood money.
Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me every damn time ... I'm a GOP 'moderate'.
GOP Sen. Lisa Murkowski says she feels “cheated” after winning clean energy concessions in Trump’s “Big Beautiful Bill” for her vote, only to see him undercut it days later with an executive order:
Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me every damn time ... I'm a GOP 'moderate'.
GOP Sen. Lisa Murkowski says she feels “cheated” after winning clean energy concessions in Trump’s “Big Beautiful Bill” for her vote, only to see him undercut it days later with an executive order:
Isak not in Toon squad for Asia tour and is apparently pushing to leave. This is a Bale leaving Spurs moment to be honest. If he wants to go then he should be sold ASAP but not to the bin dippers.
Brilliant, “bin dippers”, do you also sing the “Sign on, sign on” song? Very easy of course to look down on a northern city which has had problems with industry leaving and high unemployment and poverty from a bastion of wealth and success like, er Newcastle.
Poor Liverpool being condescended by a city that has brought the world Gazza, and Jimmy Nail. Don’t have time to list all the other great cultural exports of which I am sure are legion.
The final ninety seconds of that clip are absolutely incredible. The Labour MPs are smirking, dumbfounded at Starmer’s answers, while he ends up with his jaw slack, looking like he’s just been told his kids aren’t his
Like I said, I expect Starmer to retire early, like Wilson.
Isn't Starmer already older than Wilson was when he left office?
Following an intervention from Jane Russell about misgendering, the judge asks Naomi Cunningham if she would like time to reflect. Naomi replies crisply, “no thank you”.
This is the holocaust all over again. This time done by Jews.
Oh, but you who philosophize, disgrace and criticize all fears Bury the rag deep in your face for now's the time for your tears
It's horrendous. The Israelis have slaughtered more civilians in Gaza in two years than the Nazis killed in Bergen Belsen in four. And we're still listening to the tape of Richard Attenborough's heartbreaking broadcast 80 years on.
If you want a serious debate, rather than a rant - what do you honestly think the Gazans would do to Israeli Jews, given the chance?
And how do you see this being solved? What should Israel do, to bring this to a humane resolution?
Meh. You're apologising for genocide. There may not be a solution. There may not be a resolution. That doesn't make mass starvation okay.
F off. I'm not apologising. I'm just not gonna sit here and bleat, whine and virtuously signal my outrage, performatively. There needs to be a solution. The only solution that can satisfy all sides, at this late appalling stage, is what Trump said. Mad as that sounds
Fair enough. I read implicit justification for what David linked to in your post. If that was my misread, I apologise.
I think seeking solutions to the bigger problem at this stage is a fool's game, if it serves as any distraction at all from solving the immediate problem of forcing Israel and Egypt to let aid in so that fewer innocent people starve.
I wanted to make a proper apology for my post to you last night. It was totally uncalled for. I dipped into the thread, had a strong emotional reaction to David's post and then read your reply outside of the context of your other posts on the topic e.g. the one where you agree that young Gazans will inevitably be radicalised by what is currently going on.
Having now read back through the thread it was very clear that I wasn't justified in claiming you were apologising for genocide - I was reading a subtext that just wasn't there. Sorry.
That’s very gracious of you
The thing is I’ve made my feelings clear about this horror for years. I’ve seen Israel - personally, when visiting it - go from fairly admirable democracy to something closer to fascism (apartheid is certainly a valid comparison). But I’ve also witnessed the lurid anti-Semitism of the Palestinians - they really do want to drive the Jews into the sea
How do you solve that? You can’t. The two state idea (esp after October 7) is dead, it’s even more dead after this horrific assault on Gaza - Gazans will justifiably want revenge for generations
The only possible “solution” is Trump’s - even if people hate Trump. Give Gazans loads of money (much more than he suggests) and find them a home elsewhere. Away from Israel
It’s cruel and sad and unjust but I don’t see any other superior route that actually makes Gazan lives better. Or that acknowledges Israel’s now firm refusal to live alongside Palestinians
Hey Ho. I tried. I normally avoid this topic, I shall go back to ignoring it
Where do you send Palestinians?
One of the reasons the region is in the mess it is was that the trauma of the Holocaust understandably led Jews to seek a safe haven and country of their own elsewhere. If Palestinians are moved on to a home elsewhere you repeat the cycle.
I don't think there's any alternative to the hard work of peace-building, one day, one person at a time.
It would have to be away from the Middle East. Either North Africa - which might welcome the injection of investment - or even further. Indonesia?
I know this sounds like dreamland but then it needs a bit of dreaming to fix this
The alternative is more of the same for year after year, decade after decade. Even if the “west” prevails on Israel to let up right now, the Gazans will commit some terrible Jew-killing soon enough, then Israel will go at it again, and this satanic cycle will continue
Who benefits from that? Literally no one. Manufacturers of white phosphorus maybe
You're basically advocating a new Madagascar Plan (which few people realise was originally a pre-war French and Polish scheme) without having any idea where this Madagascar will be. Anywhere capable of supporting such a large population will already be settled, and dropping them into some wilderness and expecting them to build a new Birobidzhan out of nothing isn't realistic or acceptable nowadays.
Besides, tons of Irish left for the States after the various Irish uprisings, and those that became economically successful went on to sponsor and fund terrorism back in their home country for almost a century thereafter. Distance is not a guarantee of peace.
Trump is simply looking at the real estate possibilities of creating a coastal strip, like Florida or coastal NJ, in Gaza, and neither knows nor cares where the people who live there would go.
Well, I had a go at essaying a solution. That might actually work - rather than just venting and ranting and performatively weeping
I’m not saying my solution WILL work. I am saying I cannot see anyone else suggesting any other alternatives
But I shall now shut up on this subject, again. Whenever I get into this issue I am always briskly reminded why I usually avoid it
Time for coffee
How about a one-state solution. Palestinians need work and Israel needs the workers. Just call everyone Israeli and give them a vote. Let the democratic will of all of them make the decisions without the continued interference from outside.
It will deal a blow to the munitions industry but it may be worth it.
The inconsistent triad.
Most Israelis want a state that is Jewish, democratic and stretches from the Jordan to the Med.*
But only any two of those are possible.
1) If it's Jewish and covers the whole of the old mandate, it can't be democratic.
2) If it covers the whole of the old mandate and is democratic, it won't be Jewish.
3) If it's Jewish and democratic, therefore, it cannot be all of the old mandate.
Your proposal would conflict with 2.
*Avoiding a certain rather loaded phrase,
Plenty of Arabs, Druze and Bedouin living in this Jewish State as I recall, though the Bedouin get a hard time from the settlers. Seems to be another self-imposed barrier to living in peace.
One state would see the removal of the wall that stops people moving freely. An immense waste of human time and energy in queuing at the border for the workers.
If the roads that criss-cross the West Bank were open to all, there would be another boost to tourism, agriculture, transport etc. For a supposedly smart population, they have a way of causing themselves a lot of grief - or more accurately allowing others to create the grief for them.
A unified Israel would be an amazing economic powerhouse in the region if outsiders were removed from the equation.
Every rainy day in the summer is a blessing. It's the main thing that puts a lid on tourist numbers in the west of Ireland.
The key is to remain in the top 5% of fittest people. That means you can simply hike, climb or cycle away from the crowds.
That's true. I had a glorious hike up to the top of Kocknaveagh (a modest hill above Bantry) in the middle of May. It had been dry for quite a while, but I had the place to myself. I didn't see another soul away from the roads.
Following an intervention from Jane Russell about misgendering, the judge asks Naomi Cunningham if she would like time to reflect. Naomi replies crisply, “no thank you”.
I assume Naomi Cunningham is the lawyer for Sandie Peggie. Who is Jane Russell and what is the name of the judge?
Isak not in Toon squad for Asia tour and is apparently pushing to leave. This is a Bale leaving Spurs moment to be honest. If he wants to go then he should be sold ASAP but not to the bin dippers.
Bin dippers?
You use poverty smears, oh I forget you’re happy to take Saudi blood money.
Following an intervention from Jane Russell about misgendering, the judge asks Naomi Cunningham if she would like time to reflect. Naomi replies crisply, “no thank you”.
I assume Naomi Cunningham is the lawyer for Sandie Peggie. Who is Jane Russell and what is the name of the judge?
Jane Russel is the lawyer for NHS Fife and unbelievably Dr Upton too.
Its been hilarious with witness after witness forgetting to refer to Upton as she...
The upshot of today is the internal investigation was compromised and badly handled. There is also a strong suggestion that NHS Fife has yet another hidden letter/email that has not been produced yet.
It is beautiful - stunning, even - but down in the valleys it is far too hot in July August. Because it sits in trapped heat, Bolzano is one of THE hottest cities in Italy in summer
This is the holocaust all over again. This time done by Jews.
Oh, but you who philosophize, disgrace and criticize all fears Bury the rag deep in your face for now's the time for your tears
It's horrendous. The Israelis have slaughtered more civilians in Gaza in two years than the Nazis killed in Bergen Belsen in four. And we're still listening to the tape of Richard Attenborough's heartbreaking broadcast 80 years on.
If you want a serious debate, rather than a rant - what do you honestly think the Gazans would do to Israeli Jews, given the chance?
And how do you see this being solved? What should Israel do, to bring this to a humane resolution?
Meh. You're apologising for genocide. There may not be a solution. There may not be a resolution. That doesn't make mass starvation okay.
F off. I'm not apologising. I'm just not gonna sit here and bleat, whine and virtuously signal my outrage, performatively. There needs to be a solution. The only solution that can satisfy all sides, at this late appalling stage, is what Trump said. Mad as that sounds
Fair enough. I read implicit justification for what David linked to in your post. If that was my misread, I apologise.
I think seeking solutions to the bigger problem at this stage is a fool's game, if it serves as any distraction at all from solving the immediate problem of forcing Israel and Egypt to let aid in so that fewer innocent people starve.
I wanted to make a proper apology for my post to you last night. It was totally uncalled for. I dipped into the thread, had a strong emotional reaction to David's post and then read your reply outside of the context of your other posts on the topic e.g. the one where you agree that young Gazans will inevitably be radicalised by what is currently going on.
Having now read back through the thread it was very clear that I wasn't justified in claiming you were apologising for genocide - I was reading a subtext that just wasn't there. Sorry.
That’s very gracious of you
The thing is I’ve made my feelings clear about this horror for years. I’ve seen Israel - personally, when visiting it - go from fairly admirable democracy to something closer to fascism (apartheid is certainly a valid comparison). But I’ve also witnessed the lurid anti-Semitism of the Palestinians - they really do want to drive the Jews into the sea
How do you solve that? You can’t. The two state idea (esp after October 7) is dead, it’s even more dead after this horrific assault on Gaza - Gazans will justifiably want revenge for generations
The only possible “solution” is Trump’s - even if people hate Trump. Give Gazans loads of money (much more than he suggests) and find them a home elsewhere. Away from Israel
It’s cruel and sad and unjust but I don’t see any other superior route that actually makes Gazan lives better. Or that acknowledges Israel’s now firm refusal to live alongside Palestinians
Hey Ho. I tried. I normally avoid this topic, I shall go back to ignoring it
Where do you send Palestinians?
One of the reasons the region is in the mess it is was that the trauma of the Holocaust understandably led Jews to seek a safe haven and country of their own elsewhere. If Palestinians are moved on to a home elsewhere you repeat the cycle.
I don't think there's any alternative to the hard work of peace-building, one day, one person at a time.
It would have to be away from the Middle East. Either North Africa - which might welcome the injection of investment - or even further. Indonesia?
I know this sounds like dreamland but then it needs a bit of dreaming to fix this
The alternative is more of the same for year after year, decade after decade. Even if the “west” prevails on Israel to let up right now, the Gazans will commit some terrible Jew-killing soon enough, then Israel will go at it again, and this satanic cycle will continue
Who benefits from that? Literally no one. Manufacturers of white phosphorus maybe
You're basically advocating a new Madagascar Plan (which few people realise was originally a pre-war French and Polish scheme) without having any idea where this Madagascar will be. Anywhere capable of supporting such a large population will already be settled, and dropping them into some wilderness and expecting them to build a new Birobidzhan out of nothing isn't realistic or acceptable nowadays.
Besides, tons of Irish left for the States after the various Irish uprisings, and those that became economically successful went on to sponsor and fund terrorism back in their home country for almost a century thereafter. Distance is not a guarantee of peace.
Trump is simply looking at the real estate possibilities of creating a coastal strip, like Florida or coastal NJ, in Gaza, and neither knows nor cares where the people who live there would go.
Well, I had a go at essaying a solution. That might actually work - rather than just venting and ranting and performatively weeping
I’m not saying my solution WILL work. I am saying I cannot see anyone else suggesting any other alternatives
But I shall now shut up on this subject, again. Whenever I get into this issue I am always briskly reminded why I usually avoid it
Time for coffee
How about a one-state solution. Palestinians need work and Israel needs the workers. Just call everyone Israeli and give them a vote. Let the democratic will of all of them make the decisions without the continued interference from outside.
It will deal a blow to the munitions industry but it may be worth it.
The inconsistent triad.
Most Israelis want a state that is Jewish, democratic and stretches from the Jordan to the Med.*
But only any two of those are possible.
1) If it's Jewish and covers the whole of the old mandate, it can't be democratic.
2) If it covers the whole of the old mandate and is democratic, it won't be Jewish.
3) If it's Jewish and democratic, therefore, it cannot be all of the old mandate.
Your proposal would conflict with 2.
*Avoiding a certain rather loaded phrase,
Plenty of Arabs, Druze and Bedouin living in this Jewish State as I recall, though the Bedouin get a hard time from the settlers. Seems to be another self-imposed barrier to living in peace.
One state would see the removal of the wall that stops people moving freely. An immense waste of human time and energy in queuing at the border for the workers.
If the roads that criss-cross the West Bank were open to all, there would be another boost to tourism, agriculture, transport etc. For a supposedly smart population, they have a way of causing themselves a lot of grief - or more accurately allowing others to create the grief for them.
A unified Israel would be an amazing economic powerhouse in the region if outsiders were removed from the equation.
It's just not going to happen, which is why I asked for solutions in "the realm of the do-able"
They now hate each other. Murderously. On October 7 Gazans showed that many of them will, given the chance, kill every Jew they find, babies and grannies included. Since October 7 Israelis have shown they feel quite similarly genocidal about Gazans
You cannot fix that with kumbaya and "let's hope this works", even if you got the chance (and you would not)
At the same time Israel has nukes and has made it quite apparent it will turn the entire Middle East into glass, including Israel, rather than see the Jewish state extinguished
So now we've all accepted the facts on the ground, rather than fond hopes and wishes, what can be done?
Following an intervention from Jane Russell about misgendering, the judge asks Naomi Cunningham if she would like time to reflect. Naomi replies crisply, “no thank you”.
Instead of quoting second-hand from partisan observers, it may be better to take the raw feed. A pure raw feed is not available but the gender-critical twitter @tribunaltweets is covering it. It occasionally editorialises, and the nature of tweeting live means that it can be a bit erratic, but it's accurate enough for the purposes of PB. It is here
Following an intervention from Jane Russell about misgendering, the judge asks Naomi Cunningham if she would like time to reflect. Naomi replies crisply, “no thank you”.
Instead of quoting second-hand from partisan observers, it may be better to take the raw feed. A pure raw feed is not available but the gender-critical twitter @tribunaltweets is covering it. It occasionally editorialises, and the nature of tweeting live means that it can be a bit erratic, but it's accurate enough for the purposes of PB. It is here
Following an intervention from Jane Russell about misgendering, the judge asks Naomi Cunningham if she would like time to reflect. Naomi replies crisply, “no thank you”.
Suffice to say Russell, and her hubby, are both Lib Dem’s
Following an intervention from Jane Russell about misgendering, the judge asks Naomi Cunningham if she would like time to reflect. Naomi replies crisply, “no thank you”.
I assume Naomi Cunningham is the lawyer for Sandie Peggie. Who is Jane Russell and what is the name of the judge?
Jane Russel is the lawyer for NHS Fife and unbelievably Dr Upton too.
Its been hilarious with witness after witness forgetting to refer to Upton as she...
The upshot of today is the internal investigation was compromised and badly handled. There is also a strong suggestion that NHS Fife has yet another hidden letter/email that has not been produced yet.
It will be interesting to see the analysis of who pays what towards Ms Russell's total fees/costs.
@PaulBrandITV Zarah Sultana clarifies that her new party with Jeremy Corbyn is not called 'Your Party', that appears to just be the weblink. We don't know what it is called yet.
"Fruit and Nut party" with Zara as the fruit and Corbyn as.....
Following an intervention from Jane Russell about misgendering, the judge asks Naomi Cunningham if she would like time to reflect. Naomi replies crisply, “no thank you”.
Instead of quoting second-hand from partisan observers, it may be better to take the raw feed. A pure raw feed is not available but the gender-critical twitter @tribunaltweets is covering it. It occasionally editorialises, and the nature of tweeting live means that it can be a bit erratic, but it's accurate enough for the purposes of PB. It is here
Interesting phone in on this subject on radio Scotland yesterday morning. Not an easy problem to sort, apart from Highlands/Skye and Edinburgh, lots of Scotland has plenty more capacity.
Its easy to put a tourist tax on air b and b costs, much harder for camper vans in remote lay bys
It's obvious - put a toll on the NC500, Skye, Glen Etive, free passes for residents.
I'm an energetic advocate for right to roam and wild camping, but "car camping" should require permits a la Loch Lomond and the Trossachs, with facilities provided like cold showers and composting toilets. Councils would make their money back and more.
There should be limited spots available on areas of critical biodiversity like machair, and a link to a registration plate would significantly cut arsehole behaviour. It would still leave plenty of freedom for the adventurous among us, willing to walk 10k+ into the hills.
This works everywhere else (particularly New Zealand) so no reason why it can't be applied here.
It is beautiful - stunning, even - but down in the valleys it is far too hot in July August. Because it sits in trapped heat, Bolzano is one of THE hottest cities in Italy in summer
Go in spring or autumn when it is sublime
Or winter. The Sella Ronda is a huge ski area with a wide range of ski runs and very pretty. Much better than the Alps. Getting used to Italians in Oompah bands and lederhosen is a challenge.
Interesting phone in on this subject on radio Scotland yesterday morning. Not an easy problem to sort, apart from Highlands/Skye and Edinburgh, lots of Scotland has plenty more capacity.
Its easy to put a tourist tax on air b and b costs, much harder for camper vans in remote lay bys
It's obvious - put a toll on the NC500, Skye, Glen Etive, free passes for residents.
I'm an energetic advocate for right to roam and wild camping, but "car camping" should require permits a la Loch Lomond and the Trossachs, with facilities provided like cold showers and composting toilets. Councils would make their money back and more.
There should be limited spots available on areas of critical biodiversity like machair, and a link to a registration plate would significantly cut arsehole behaviour. It would still leave plenty of freedom for the adventurous among us, willing to walk 10k+ into the hills.
This works everywhere else (particularly New Zealand) so no reason why it can't be applied here.
Following an intervention from Jane Russell about misgendering, the judge asks Naomi Cunningham if she would like time to reflect. Naomi replies crisply, “no thank you”.
I assume Naomi Cunningham is the lawyer for Sandie Peggie. Who is Jane Russell and what is the name of the judge?
Jane Russel is the lawyer for NHS Fife and unbelievably Dr Upton too.
Its been hilarious with witness after witness forgetting to refer to Upton as she...
The upshot of today is the internal investigation was compromised and badly handled. There is also a strong suggestion that NHS Fife has yet another hidden letter/email that has not been produced yet.
It will be interesting to see the analysis of who pays what towards Ms Russell's total fees/costs.
And if anyone hires her ever again
@tribunaltweets JR - I notice the witness is getting confused with pronouns [reads from bar standards benchbook] says u should use pronouns that are preferred. I say NC constant misgendering is creating a hostile environment and witnesses not used to hearing DU
@anyabike It's curious that Ms Russell referred to the England and Wales version of the Equal Treatment Bench Book and not the Scottish one. Given her experience it seems somewhat unlikely that she did that by accident. Here is what the Scottish ETBB says
Lots of sarcastic comments here, but I'm not sure it's the target audience. What strikes me most about the launch statement is that most of the programme is being left to the launch conference, avoiding one possible trap (defining everything too early) and widening another (a chaotic conference). There is certainly a gap in the market for an effective left-wing party. A lot of potential supporters will want to see more before deciding whether to get involved; it's not obviously bonkers, but quite cautious.
This is the holocaust all over again. This time done by Jews.
Oh, but you who philosophize, disgrace and criticize all fears Bury the rag deep in your face for now's the time for your tears
It's horrendous. The Israelis have slaughtered more civilians in Gaza in two years than the Nazis killed in Bergen Belsen in four. And we're still listening to the tape of Richard Attenborough's heartbreaking broadcast 80 years on.
If you want a serious debate, rather than a rant - what do you honestly think the Gazans would do to Israeli Jews, given the chance?
And how do you see this being solved? What should Israel do, to bring this to a humane resolution?
Meh. You're apologising for genocide. There may not be a solution. There may not be a resolution. That doesn't make mass starvation okay.
F off. I'm not apologising. I'm just not gonna sit here and bleat, whine and virtuously signal my outrage, performatively. There needs to be a solution. The only solution that can satisfy all sides, at this late appalling stage, is what Trump said. Mad as that sounds
Fair enough. I read implicit justification for what David linked to in your post. If that was my misread, I apologise.
I think seeking solutions to the bigger problem at this stage is a fool's game, if it serves as any distraction at all from solving the immediate problem of forcing Israel and Egypt to let aid in so that fewer innocent people starve.
I wanted to make a proper apology for my post to you last night. It was totally uncalled for. I dipped into the thread, had a strong emotional reaction to David's post and then read your reply outside of the context of your other posts on the topic e.g. the one where you agree that young Gazans will inevitably be radicalised by what is currently going on.
Having now read back through the thread it was very clear that I wasn't justified in claiming you were apologising for genocide - I was reading a subtext that just wasn't there. Sorry.
That’s very gracious of you
The thing is I’ve made my feelings clear about this horror for years. I’ve seen Israel - personally, when visiting it - go from fairly admirable democracy to something closer to fascism (apartheid is certainly a valid comparison). But I’ve also witnessed the lurid anti-Semitism of the Palestinians - they really do want to drive the Jews into the sea
How do you solve that? You can’t. The two state idea (esp after October 7) is dead, it’s even more dead after this horrific assault on Gaza - Gazans will justifiably want revenge for generations
The only possible “solution” is Trump’s - even if people hate Trump. Give Gazans loads of money (much more than he suggests) and find them a home elsewhere. Away from Israel
It’s cruel and sad and unjust but I don’t see any other superior route that actually makes Gazan lives better. Or that acknowledges Israel’s now firm refusal to live alongside Palestinians
Hey Ho. I tried. I normally avoid this topic, I shall go back to ignoring it
Where do you send Palestinians?
One of the reasons the region is in the mess it is was that the trauma of the Holocaust understandably led Jews to seek a safe haven and country of their own elsewhere. If Palestinians are moved on to a home elsewhere you repeat the cycle.
I don't think there's any alternative to the hard work of peace-building, one day, one person at a time.
It would have to be away from the Middle East. Either North Africa - which might welcome the injection of investment - or even further. Indonesia?
I know this sounds like dreamland but then it needs a bit of dreaming to fix this
The alternative is more of the same for year after year, decade after decade. Even if the “west” prevails on Israel to let up right now, the Gazans will commit some terrible Jew-killing soon enough, then Israel will go at it again, and this satanic cycle will continue
Who benefits from that? Literally no one. Manufacturers of white phosphorus maybe
You're basically advocating a new Madagascar Plan (which few people realise was originally a pre-war French and Polish scheme) without having any idea where this Madagascar will be. Anywhere capable of supporting such a large population will already be settled, and dropping them into some wilderness and expecting them to build a new Birobidzhan out of nothing isn't realistic or acceptable nowadays.
Besides, tons of Irish left for the States after the various Irish uprisings, and those that became economically successful went on to sponsor and fund terrorism back in their home country for almost a century thereafter. Distance is not a guarantee of peace.
Trump is simply looking at the real estate possibilities of creating a coastal strip, like Florida or coastal NJ, in Gaza, and neither knows nor cares where the people who live there would go.
Well, I had a go at essaying a solution. That might actually work - rather than just venting and ranting and performatively weeping
I’m not saying my solution WILL work. I am saying I cannot see anyone else suggesting any other alternatives
But I shall now shut up on this subject, again. Whenever I get into this issue I am always briskly reminded why I usually avoid it
Time for coffee
How about a one-state solution. Palestinians need work and Israel needs the workers. Just call everyone Israeli and give them a vote. Let the democratic will of all of them make the decisions without the continued interference from outside.
It will deal a blow to the munitions industry but it may be worth it.
The inconsistent triad.
Most Israelis want a state that is Jewish, democratic and stretches from the Jordan to the Med.*
But only any two of those are possible.
1) If it's Jewish and covers the whole of the old mandate, it can't be democratic.
2) If it covers the whole of the old mandate and is democratic, it won't be Jewish.
3) If it's Jewish and democratic, therefore, it cannot be all of the old mandate.
Your proposal would conflict with 2.
*Avoiding a certain rather loaded phrase,
Plenty of Arabs, Druze and Bedouin living in this Jewish State as I recall, though the Bedouin get a hard time from the settlers. Seems to be another self-imposed barrier to living in peace.
One state would see the removal of the wall that stops people moving freely. An immense waste of human time and energy in queuing at the border for the workers.
If the roads that criss-cross the West Bank were open to all, there would be another boost to tourism, agriculture, transport etc. For a supposedly smart population, they have a way of causing themselves a lot of grief - or more accurately allowing others to create the grief for them.
A unified Israel would be an amazing economic powerhouse in the region if outsiders were removed from the equation.
It's just not going to happen, which is why I asked for solutions in "the realm of the do-able"
They now hate each other. Murderously. On October 7 Gazans showed that many of them will, given the chance, kill every Jew they find, babies and grannies included. Since October 7 Israelis have shown they feel quite similarly genocidal about Gazans
You cannot fix that with kumbaya and "let's hope this works", even if you got the chance (and you would not)
At the same time Israel has nukes and has made it quite apparent it will turn the entire Middle East into glass, including Israel, rather than see the Jewish state extinguished
So now we've all accepted the facts on the ground, rather than fond hopes and wishes, what can be done?
Plenty of hate in the world without it being described a wishing to kill each other. The overwhelming majority of Palestinians just want to get on with their lives and back to working in Israel and the Palestinians territories. Ethnic cleansing falls into the same category of simple solution to complex problems i.e not a solution. Israelis want to live their lives without be paranoid about who is on the bus with them.
Closer to home the same lie was spread about Northern Ireland where the bombers have been marginalised. Hate only gets you so far.
This is the holocaust all over again. This time done by Jews.
Oh, but you who philosophize, disgrace and criticize all fears Bury the rag deep in your face for now's the time for your tears
It's horrendous. The Israelis have slaughtered more civilians in Gaza in two years than the Nazis killed in Bergen Belsen in four. And we're still listening to the tape of Richard Attenborough's heartbreaking broadcast 80 years on.
If you want a serious debate, rather than a rant - what do you honestly think the Gazans would do to Israeli Jews, given the chance?
And how do you see this being solved? What should Israel do, to bring this to a humane resolution?
Meh. You're apologising for genocide. There may not be a solution. There may not be a resolution. That doesn't make mass starvation okay.
F off. I'm not apologising. I'm just not gonna sit here and bleat, whine and virtuously signal my outrage, performatively. There needs to be a solution. The only solution that can satisfy all sides, at this late appalling stage, is what Trump said. Mad as that sounds
Fair enough. I read implicit justification for what David linked to in your post. If that was my misread, I apologise.
I think seeking solutions to the bigger problem at this stage is a fool's game, if it serves as any distraction at all from solving the immediate problem of forcing Israel and Egypt to let aid in so that fewer innocent people starve.
I wanted to make a proper apology for my post to you last night. It was totally uncalled for. I dipped into the thread, had a strong emotional reaction to David's post and then read your reply outside of the context of your other posts on the topic e.g. the one where you agree that young Gazans will inevitably be radicalised by what is currently going on.
Having now read back through the thread it was very clear that I wasn't justified in claiming you were apologising for genocide - I was reading a subtext that just wasn't there. Sorry.
That’s very gracious of you
The thing is I’ve made my feelings clear about this horror for years. I’ve seen Israel - personally, when visiting it - go from fairly admirable democracy to something closer to fascism (apartheid is certainly a valid comparison). But I’ve also witnessed the lurid anti-Semitism of the Palestinians - they really do want to drive the Jews into the sea
How do you solve that? You can’t. The two state idea (esp after October 7) is dead, it’s even more dead after this horrific assault on Gaza - Gazans will justifiably want revenge for generations
The only possible “solution” is Trump’s - even if people hate Trump. Give Gazans loads of money (much more than he suggests) and find them a home elsewhere. Away from Israel
It’s cruel and sad and unjust but I don’t see any other superior route that actually makes Gazan lives better. Or that acknowledges Israel’s now firm refusal to live alongside Palestinians
Hey Ho. I tried. I normally avoid this topic, I shall go back to ignoring it
Where do you send Palestinians?
One of the reasons the region is in the mess it is was that the trauma of the Holocaust understandably led Jews to seek a safe haven and country of their own elsewhere. If Palestinians are moved on to a home elsewhere you repeat the cycle.
I don't think there's any alternative to the hard work of peace-building, one day, one person at a time.
It would have to be away from the Middle East. Either North Africa - which might welcome the injection of investment - or even further. Indonesia?
I know this sounds like dreamland but then it needs a bit of dreaming to fix this
The alternative is more of the same for year after year, decade after decade. Even if the “west” prevails on Israel to let up right now, the Gazans will commit some terrible Jew-killing soon enough, then Israel will go at it again, and this satanic cycle will continue
Who benefits from that? Literally no one. Manufacturers of white phosphorus maybe
You're basically advocating a new Madagascar Plan (which few people realise was originally a pre-war French and Polish scheme) without having any idea where this Madagascar will be. Anywhere capable of supporting such a large population will already be settled, and dropping them into some wilderness and expecting them to build a new Birobidzhan out of nothing isn't realistic or acceptable nowadays.
Besides, tons of Irish left for the States after the various Irish uprisings, and those that became economically successful went on to sponsor and fund terrorism back in their home country for almost a century thereafter. Distance is not a guarantee of peace.
Trump is simply looking at the real estate possibilities of creating a coastal strip, like Florida or coastal NJ, in Gaza, and neither knows nor cares where the people who live there would go.
Well, I had a go at essaying a solution. That might actually work - rather than just venting and ranting and performatively weeping
I’m not saying my solution WILL work. I am saying I cannot see anyone else suggesting any other alternatives
But I shall now shut up on this subject, again. Whenever I get into this issue I am always briskly reminded why I usually avoid it
Time for coffee
How about a one-state solution. Palestinians need work and Israel needs the workers. Just call everyone Israeli and give them a vote. Let the democratic will of all of them make the decisions without the continued interference from outside.
It will deal a blow to the munitions industry but it may be worth it.
The inconsistent triad.
Most Israelis want a state that is Jewish, democratic and stretches from the Jordan to the Med.*
But only any two of those are possible.
1) If it's Jewish and covers the whole of the old mandate, it can't be democratic.
2) If it covers the whole of the old mandate and is democratic, it won't be Jewish.
3) If it's Jewish and democratic, therefore, it cannot be all of the old mandate.
Your proposal would conflict with 2.
*Avoiding a certain rather loaded phrase,
Plenty of Arabs, Druze and Bedouin living in this Jewish State as I recall, though the Bedouin get a hard time from the settlers. Seems to be another self-imposed barrier to living in peace.
One state would see the removal of the wall that stops people moving freely. An immense waste of human time and energy in queuing at the border for the workers.
If the roads that criss-cross the West Bank were open to all, there would be another boost to tourism, agriculture, transport etc. For a supposedly smart population, they have a way of causing themselves a lot of grief - or more accurately allowing others to create the grief for them.
A unified Israel would be an amazing economic powerhouse in the region if outsiders were removed from the equation.
It's just not going to happen, which is why I asked for solutions in "the realm of the do-able"
They now hate each other. Murderously. On October 7 Gazans showed that many of them will, given the chance, kill every Jew they find, babies and grannies included. Since October 7 Israelis have shown they feel quite similarly genocidal about Gazans
You cannot fix that with kumbaya and "let's hope this works", even if you got the chance (and you would not)
At the same time Israel has nukes and has made it quite apparent it will turn the entire Middle East into glass, including Israel, rather than see the Jewish state extinguished
So now we've all accepted the facts on the ground, rather than fond hopes and wishes, what can be done?
Plenty of hate in the world without it being described a wishing to kill each other. The overwhelming majority of Palestinians just want to get on with their lives and back to working in Israel and the Palestinians territories. Ethnic cleansing falls into the same category of simple solution to complex problems i.e not a solution. Israelis want to live their lives without be paranoid about who is on the bus with them.
Closer to home the same lie was spread about Northern Ireland where the bombers have been marginalised. Hate only gets you so far.
Is ethnic cleansing do-able?
How old are you? 9?
Have you been to Israel/Palestine? I have, several times
The hatred is true and real and it now runs deeper than ever - it has gotten way worse the last 25 years
To get to a position where the two sides trust each other would take maybe two generations of total peace. That's simply not going to happen. And even THEN you'd have the adamant refusal of Jews to give up the Jewish nature of the Jewish state. They want a large Jewish majority in that state, and will not tolerate anything else
This is the holocaust all over again. This time done by Jews.
Oh, but you who philosophize, disgrace and criticize all fears Bury the rag deep in your face for now's the time for your tears
It's horrendous. The Israelis have slaughtered more civilians in Gaza in two years than the Nazis killed in Bergen Belsen in four. And we're still listening to the tape of Richard Attenborough's heartbreaking broadcast 80 years on.
If you want a serious debate, rather than a rant - what do you honestly think the Gazans would do to Israeli Jews, given the chance?
And how do you see this being solved? What should Israel do, to bring this to a humane resolution?
Meh. You're apologising for genocide. There may not be a solution. There may not be a resolution. That doesn't make mass starvation okay.
F off. I'm not apologising. I'm just not gonna sit here and bleat, whine and virtuously signal my outrage, performatively. There needs to be a solution. The only solution that can satisfy all sides, at this late appalling stage, is what Trump said. Mad as that sounds
Fair enough. I read implicit justification for what David linked to in your post. If that was my misread, I apologise.
I think seeking solutions to the bigger problem at this stage is a fool's game, if it serves as any distraction at all from solving the immediate problem of forcing Israel and Egypt to let aid in so that fewer innocent people starve.
I wanted to make a proper apology for my post to you last night. It was totally uncalled for. I dipped into the thread, had a strong emotional reaction to David's post and then read your reply outside of the context of your other posts on the topic e.g. the one where you agree that young Gazans will inevitably be radicalised by what is currently going on.
Having now read back through the thread it was very clear that I wasn't justified in claiming you were apologising for genocide - I was reading a subtext that just wasn't there. Sorry.
That’s very gracious of you
The thing is I’ve made my feelings clear about this horror for years. I’ve seen Israel - personally, when visiting it - go from fairly admirable democracy to something closer to fascism (apartheid is certainly a valid comparison). But I’ve also witnessed the lurid anti-Semitism of the Palestinians - they really do want to drive the Jews into the sea
How do you solve that? You can’t. The two state idea (esp after October 7) is dead, it’s even more dead after this horrific assault on Gaza - Gazans will justifiably want revenge for generations
The only possible “solution” is Trump’s - even if people hate Trump. Give Gazans loads of money (much more than he suggests) and find them a home elsewhere. Away from Israel
It’s cruel and sad and unjust but I don’t see any other superior route that actually makes Gazan lives better. Or that acknowledges Israel’s now firm refusal to live alongside Palestinians
Hey Ho. I tried. I normally avoid this topic, I shall go back to ignoring it
Where do you send Palestinians?
One of the reasons the region is in the mess it is was that the trauma of the Holocaust understandably led Jews to seek a safe haven and country of their own elsewhere. If Palestinians are moved on to a home elsewhere you repeat the cycle.
I don't think there's any alternative to the hard work of peace-building, one day, one person at a time.
It would have to be away from the Middle East. Either North Africa - which might welcome the injection of investment - or even further. Indonesia?
I know this sounds like dreamland but then it needs a bit of dreaming to fix this
The alternative is more of the same for year after year, decade after decade. Even if the “west” prevails on Israel to let up right now, the Gazans will commit some terrible Jew-killing soon enough, then Israel will go at it again, and this satanic cycle will continue
Who benefits from that? Literally no one. Manufacturers of white phosphorus maybe
You're basically advocating a new Madagascar Plan (which few people realise was originally a pre-war French and Polish scheme) without having any idea where this Madagascar will be. Anywhere capable of supporting such a large population will already be settled, and dropping them into some wilderness and expecting them to build a new Birobidzhan out of nothing isn't realistic or acceptable nowadays.
Besides, tons of Irish left for the States after the various Irish uprisings, and those that became economically successful went on to sponsor and fund terrorism back in their home country for almost a century thereafter. Distance is not a guarantee of peace.
Trump is simply looking at the real estate possibilities of creating a coastal strip, like Florida or coastal NJ, in Gaza, and neither knows nor cares where the people who live there would go.
Well, I had a go at essaying a solution. That might actually work - rather than just venting and ranting and performatively weeping
I’m not saying my solution WILL work. I am saying I cannot see anyone else suggesting any other alternatives
But I shall now shut up on this subject, again. Whenever I get into this issue I am always briskly reminded why I usually avoid it
Time for coffee
How about a one-state solution. Palestinians need work and Israel needs the workers. Just call everyone Israeli and give them a vote. Let the democratic will of all of them make the decisions without the continued interference from outside.
It will deal a blow to the munitions industry but it may be worth it.
The inconsistent triad.
Most Israelis want a state that is Jewish, democratic and stretches from the Jordan to the Med.*
But only any two of those are possible.
1) If it's Jewish and covers the whole of the old mandate, it can't be democratic.
2) If it covers the whole of the old mandate and is democratic, it won't be Jewish.
3) If it's Jewish and democratic, therefore, it cannot be all of the old mandate.
Your proposal would conflict with 2.
*Avoiding a certain rather loaded phrase,
Plenty of Arabs, Druze and Bedouin living in this Jewish State as I recall, though the Bedouin get a hard time from the settlers. Seems to be another self-imposed barrier to living in peace.
One state would see the removal of the wall that stops people moving freely. An immense waste of human time and energy in queuing at the border for the workers.
If the roads that criss-cross the West Bank were open to all, there would be another boost to tourism, agriculture, transport etc. For a supposedly smart population, they have a way of causing themselves a lot of grief - or more accurately allowing others to create the grief for them.
A unified Israel would be an amazing economic powerhouse in the region if outsiders were removed from the equation.
It's just not going to happen, which is why I asked for solutions in "the realm of the do-able"
They now hate each other. Murderously. On October 7 Gazans showed that many of them will, given the chance, kill every Jew they find, babies and grannies included. Since October 7 Israelis have shown they feel quite similarly genocidal about Gazans
You cannot fix that with kumbaya and "let's hope this works", even if you got the chance (and you would not)
At the same time Israel has nukes and has made it quite apparent it will turn the entire Middle East into glass, including Israel, rather than see the Jewish state extinguished
So now we've all accepted the facts on the ground, rather than fond hopes and wishes, what can be done?
Plenty of hate in the world without it being described a wishing to kill each other. The overwhelming majority of Palestinians just want to get on with their lives and back to working in Israel and the Palestinians territories. Ethnic cleansing falls into the same category of simple solution to complex problems i.e not a solution. Israelis want to live their lives without be paranoid about who is on the bus with them.
Closer to home the same lie was spread about Northern Ireland where the bombers have been marginalised. Hate only gets you so far.
Is ethnic cleansing do-able?
How old are you? 9?
Have you been to Israel/Palestine? I have, several times
The hatred is true and real and it now runs deeper than ever - it has gotten way worse the last 25 years
To get to a position where the two sides trust each other would take maybe two generations of total peace. That's simply not going to happen. And even THEN you'd have the adamant refusal of Jews to give up the Jewish nature of the Jewish state. They want a large Jewish majority in that state, and will not tolerate anything else
Interesting phone in on this subject on radio Scotland yesterday morning. Not an easy problem to sort, apart from Highlands/Skye and Edinburgh, lots of Scotland has plenty more capacity.
Its easy to put a tourist tax on air b and b costs, much harder for camper vans in remote lay bys
It's obvious - put a toll on the NC500, Skye, Glen Etive, free passes for residents.
I'm an energetic advocate for right to roam and wild camping, but "car camping" should require permits a la Loch Lomond and the Trossachs, with facilities provided like cold showers and composting toilets. Councils would make their money back and more.
There should be limited spots available on areas of critical biodiversity like machair, and a link to a registration plate would significantly cut arsehole behaviour. It would still leave plenty of freedom for the adventurous among us, willing to walk 10k+ into the hills.
This works everywhere else (particularly New Zealand) so no reason why it can't be applied here.
We used to head up to Sutherland most summers and it was usually blissfully quiet. You could park up for a visit to Inchnadamph to do a bit of botanising or climb Ben More Assynt and there would be maybe 3 cars and a single Dutch campervan in the car park by the hotel.
I don't know what I'll do now once not encumbered. I fear it will have to be Scandinavia. Sarek, maybe.
@PaulBrandITV Zarah Sultana clarifies that her new party with Jeremy Corbyn is not called 'Your Party', that appears to just be the weblink. We don't know what it is called yet.
"Fruit and Nut party" with Zara as the fruit and Corbyn as.....
...the Conservative/Reform government facilitator.
The final ninety seconds of that clip are absolutely incredible. The Labour MPs are smirking, dumbfounded at Starmer’s answers, while he ends up with his jaw slack, looking like he’s just been told his kids aren’t his
Like I said, I expect Starmer to retire early, like Wilson.
Isn't Starmer already older than Wilson was when he left office?
Yes, and if Starmer were to serve until 2029, he would be our oldest Prime Minister since Jim Callaghan.
Lots of sarcastic comments here, but I'm not sure it's the target audience. What strikes me most about the launch statement is that most of the programme is being left to the launch conference, avoiding one possible trap (defining everything too early) and widening another (a chaotic conference). There is certainly a gap in the market for an effective left-wing party. A lot of potential supporters will want to see more before deciding whether to get involved; it's not obviously bonkers, but quite cautious.
No sarcasm from me. I fully support this new party, and not just because it will destroy Labour
This is a proper strand of politics that needs representation. It may be 10-15% of voters. Let them have their party
And in the meantime we need to move to PR of some kind
Following an intervention from Jane Russell about misgendering, the judge asks Naomi Cunningham if she would like time to reflect. Naomi replies crisply, “no thank you”.
I assume Naomi Cunningham is the lawyer for Sandie Peggie. Who is Jane Russell and what is the name of the judge?
Jane Russel is the lawyer for NHS Fife and unbelievably Dr Upton too.
Its been hilarious with witness after witness forgetting to refer to Upton as she...
The upshot of today is the internal investigation was compromised and badly handled. There is also a strong suggestion that NHS Fife has yet another hidden letter/email that has not been produced yet.
That (hidden letter/email) may or may not be true, but it's irrelevant. The devolution of the case into procedural points distracts from the central points[0], which are below.
i) Was Dr Beth Upton (BU) entitled to be in the room?
ii) Was Nurse Sandie Peggie (SP) entitled to object to her presence?
@Cyclefree made a detailed post earlier (https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/5274125/#Comment_5274125 ) which described the encounter from SP's POV that BU was a man and then questioned[1] BU's motive. This illustrates the crux of the case: can a man become a woman and if so under what circs? BU believed that she could and had. SP believed that he couldn't and hadn't. Everything flows from there and everybody on here is interpreting the situation depending on their stance.
UK is in an awkward situation. Gender reassignment is a protected characteristic. Gender criticality has acquired a protected status via the protected status of belief. Until we sort out how to handle cases when the two conflict, we will be in trouble. The pre-Supreme Court stance veered too much into "bearded men in dress" territory, the post-Supreme Court stance will veer too much into "I see a trans: call the watch!" territory. As Brexit and Covid established, the UK cannot handle anything without going to extremes.
Notes
[0] There is a subsidiary point of was there something wrong with the manner of SP objection, which I will not deal with here because I don't know enough.
[1] "...That does suggest that he wanted her to be present. Why? If his concern was simply to change as the woman he claims to be why did he need another woman to watch him? Or be present? And why did he want to be present while the nurse changed and washed?..."
Ok so turns out ‘Your Party’ *is* the name of this new political party, but only on an interim basis until they decide on another name during the founding process of the party 🤔
Ok so turns out ‘Your Party’ *is* the name of this new political party, but only on an interim basis until they decide on another name during the founding process of the party 🤔
Lots of sarcastic comments here, but I'm not sure it's the target audience. What strikes me most about the launch statement is that most of the programme is being left to the launch conference, avoiding one possible trap (defining everything too early) and widening another (a chaotic conference). There is certainly a gap in the market for an effective left-wing party. A lot of potential supporters will want to see more before deciding whether to get involved; it's not obviously bonkers, but quite cautious.
I agree that there is a gap in the market for a left-wing party. But don't you fear, as I do, that the main beneficiaries of a new Corbyn/Sultana party will be the right-wing parties, particularly Reform? Labour is already shedding votes to the Greens and various independents - it will shed more to the new party, splitting the left/centre-left further.
And if your answer is yes, but that's Labour's fault for being too right-wing, then I'd agree, up to a point. But if Labour shift to the left to appease that flank, Reform may hoover up more of the red wall, w/c Labour vote. It's quite a dilemma.
Comments
So for a future state to succeed you need a plan for an economy, education, health and all the things.
I have no idea what that would be.
https://x.com/mamboitaliano__/status/1948123223776002301?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw
What's the betting on their being more than one party by the next election?
The odds of a strong and stable government emerging or the Israelis giving them scope to exploit these features are approximately zero. Indeed, any Palestinian state looks to have all the makings of another Somalia right in one of the world's most sensitive hotspots.
Etc.
I’d imagine if they get the amount of subsidy (not to be used for naughty guns & bombs of course) that Israel gets off the USA they might be ok.
(Urbanscoop is I think Yaxley-Lennon's outfit.)
It will deal a blow to the munitions industry but it may be worth it.
Kemi Badenoch: Argentinian president Javier Milei would be ‘template’ for my government
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/jul/24/kemi-badenoch-argentinian-president-javier-milei-template-conservatives-tory-government
*Thats a joke; obviously it isn't.
Treating Milei as a "template" means deep cuts to all benefits
But I don't think she has worked that out.
(There's also the larger question of whether we really want to be another Argentina.
I'd want to set my sights a little higher.)
Most Israelis want a state that is Jewish, democratic and stretches from the Jordan to the Med.*
But only any two of those are possible.
1) If it's Jewish and covers the whole of the old mandate, it can't be democratic.
2) If it covers the whole of the old mandate and is democratic, it won't be Jewish.
3) If it's Jewish and democratic, therefore, it cannot be all of the old mandate.
Your proposal would conflict with 2.
*Avoiding a certain rather loaded phrase,
Zarah Sultana clarifies that her new party with Jeremy Corbyn is not called 'Your Party', that appears to just be the weblink. We don't know what it is called yet.
Fool me every damn time ... I'm a GOP 'moderate'.
GOP Sen. Lisa Murkowski says she feels “cheated” after winning clean energy concessions in Trump’s “Big Beautiful Bill” for her vote, only to see him undercut it days later with an executive order:
“I feel like we made a deal and then hours later, a deal was made to somebody else.” Murkowski said
https://x.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/1948243936046174324
Sorry to announce that after recent events we have disaffiliated from YourParty.
Then we could have had the Cuks, the Refukkers and the Sour Grapes,
Its easy to put a tourist tax on air b and b costs, much harder for camper vans in remote lay bys
I predict Your Party will wither on the vine.
You use poverty smears, oh I forget you’re happy to take Saudi blood money.
https://x.com/kenklippenstein/status/1948061641762799954
Poor Liverpool being condescended by a city that has brought the world Gazza, and Jimmy Nail. Don’t have time to list all the other great cultural exports of which I am sure are legion.
@DPJHodges
Debate over new party name. 37 minutes into its launch…
@holyroodmandy
Jane Russell asks for Naomi Cunningham to reflect on her language. Judge asks NC if she needs time to reflect, she does not.
@kathmurray1
Following an intervention from Jane Russell about misgendering, the judge asks Naomi Cunningham if she would like time to reflect. Naomi replies crisply, “no thank you”.
One state would see the removal of the wall that stops people moving freely. An immense waste of human time and energy in queuing at the border for the workers.
If the roads that criss-cross the West Bank were open to all, there would be another boost to tourism, agriculture, transport etc. For a supposedly smart population, they have a way of causing themselves a lot of grief - or more accurately allowing others to create the grief for them.
A unified Israel would be an amazing economic powerhouse in the region if outsiders were removed from the equation.
Its been hilarious with witness after witness forgetting to refer to Upton as she...
The upshot of today is the internal investigation was compromised and badly handled. There is also a strong suggestion that NHS Fife has yet another hidden letter/email that has not been produced yet.
It is beautiful - stunning, even - but down in the valleys it is far too hot in July August. Because it sits in trapped heat, Bolzano is one of THE hottest cities in Italy in summer
Go in spring or autumn when it is sublime
They now hate each other. Murderously. On October 7 Gazans showed that many of them will, given the chance, kill every Jew they find, babies and grannies included. Since October 7 Israelis have shown they feel quite similarly genocidal about Gazans
You cannot fix that with kumbaya and "let's hope this works", even if you got the chance (and you would not)
At the same time Israel has nukes and has made it quite apparent it will turn the entire Middle East into glass, including Israel, rather than see the Jewish state extinguished
So now we've all accepted the facts on the ground, rather than fond hopes and wishes, what can be done?
Enduring impact of ‘gapjil’ in Korean society’s power dynamics
https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/southkorea/society/20250724/enduring-impact-of-gapjil-in-korean-societys-power-dynamics
I'm an energetic advocate for right to roam and wild camping, but "car camping" should require permits a la Loch Lomond and the Trossachs, with facilities provided like cold showers and composting toilets. Councils would make their money back and more.
There should be limited spots available on areas of critical biodiversity like machair, and a link to a registration plate would significantly cut arsehole behaviour. It would still leave plenty of freedom for the adventurous among us, willing to walk 10k+ into the hills.
This works everywhere else (particularly New Zealand) so no reason why it can't be applied here.
@tribunaltweets
JR - I notice the witness is getting confused with pronouns [reads from bar standards benchbook] says u should use pronouns that are preferred. I say NC constant misgendering is creating a hostile environment and witnesses not used to hearing DU
@anyabike
It's curious that Ms Russell referred to the England and Wales version of the Equal Treatment Bench Book and not the Scottish one. Given her experience it seems somewhat unlikely that she did that by accident. Here is what the Scottish ETBB says
https://x.com/anyabike/status/1948352824867217476
Closer to home the same lie was spread about Northern Ireland where the bombers have been marginalised. Hate only gets you so far.
Is ethnic cleansing do-able?
Have you been to Israel/Palestine? I have, several times
The hatred is true and real and it now runs deeper than ever - it has gotten way worse the last 25 years
To get to a position where the two sides trust each other would take maybe two generations of total peace. That's simply not going to happen. And even THEN you'd have the adamant refusal of Jews to give up the Jewish nature of the Jewish state. They want a large Jewish majority in that state, and will not tolerate anything else
Your comment is adolescent pifflewank
I don't know what I'll do now once not encumbered. I fear it will have to be Scandinavia. Sarek, maybe.
This is a proper strand of politics that needs representation. It may be 10-15% of voters. Let them have their party
And in the meantime we need to move to PR of some kind
- i) Was Dr Beth Upton (BU) entitled to be in the room?
- ii) Was Nurse Sandie Peggie (SP) entitled to object to her presence?
@Cyclefree made a detailed post earlier (https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/5274125/#Comment_5274125 ) which described the encounter from SP's POV that BU was a man and then questioned[1] BU's motive. This illustrates the crux of the case: can a man become a woman and if so under what circs? BU believed that she could and had. SP believed that he couldn't and hadn't. Everything flows from there and everybody on here is interpreting the situation depending on their stance.UK is in an awkward situation. Gender reassignment is a protected characteristic. Gender criticality has acquired a protected status via the protected status of belief. Until we sort out how to handle cases when the two conflict, we will be in trouble. The pre-Supreme Court stance veered too much into "bearded men in dress" territory, the post-Supreme Court stance will veer too much into "I see a trans: call the watch!" territory. As Brexit and Covid established, the UK cannot handle anything without going to extremes.
Notes
Ok so turns out ‘Your Party’ *is* the name of this new political party, but only on an interim basis until they decide on another name during the founding process of the party 🤔
And if your answer is yes, but that's Labour's fault for being too right-wing, then I'd agree, up to a point. But if Labour shift to the left to appease that flank, Reform may hoover up more of the red wall, w/c Labour vote. It's quite a dilemma.