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Donald Trump is having a Duke of York type problem – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,591
edited July 23 in General
Donald Trump is having a Duke of York type problem – politicalbetting.com

Those Who Say Yes – "Should the government release all documents that it has about the Jeffrey Epstein case?"? All: 81%? DEM: 89%?? IND: 81%? GOP: 73%YouGov / July 21, 2025

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  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,291
    edited July 23
    First!

    Like the Lionesses
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,017
    edited July 23
    What seems to have changed is it was a MAGA conspiracy theory (or at least it was only MAGA that really wanted to go down the rabbit hole as bit dicey for some high profile Democrats) now its everybody....
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,253
    Even if this damages Trump in terms of public opinion, how much does that matter for practical purposes?

    I'm sure that Stalin (say) liked adulation and disliked criticism, but he never let that affect his behaviour, did he?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,017
    edited July 23
    I am still of the opinion that is there was something really big against Trump it would have been used by now. The media have had 12 years to use it. Instead it will be drip drip of rather embarrassing here is Trump at an event and so is Epstein. But of course we know so was all the rich and famous.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,291
    So a millionaire sex-offenders doesn't want to publish the details of his friendship with another millionaire sex offenders?

    Obviously nothing to see there.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,321
    So that's
    In a box
    In jail
    Free
    I think free is the outside bet, if there's a deal to be done it will be for a nicer jail.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,993
    edited July 23
    Morning all. Some polling to start the day from More In Commons weekly poll conducted 18-20 Jul

    Ref 29 (+2)
    Lab 22 (-2)
    Con 21 (+1)
    LD 15 (+1)
    Green 8 (-1)
    SNP 2 (-1)

    Everything fairly steady, Labour starting to fall back from their mini recovery back to their post election lows perhaps
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,971

    I am still of the opinion that is there was something really big against Trump it would have been used by now. The media have had 12 years to use it. Instead it will be drip drip of rather embarrassing here is Trump at an event and so is Epstein. But of course we know so was all the rich and famous.

    I don't follow this stuff closely, but it's weird how it's flipped. Epstein has been a cause célèbre for nutters on the right who think there's been a big cover up.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,522
    "The Covid pandemic 'significantly' accelerated brain ageing – even among those who were never infected, a study suggests.

    Scientists say the strain on people's lives, from isolation for weeks on end to the uncertainty surrounding the crisis, was 'detrimental' to the nation's health.

    The findings emerged from a brain ageing model created using data from 15,334 healthy people."

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-14930983/Covid-acceleration-brain-ageing-virus.html
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,017
    edited July 23
    tlg86 said:

    I am still of the opinion that is there was something really big against Trump it would have been used by now. The media have had 12 years to use it. Instead it will be drip drip of rather embarrassing here is Trump at an event and so is Epstein. But of course we know so was all the rich and famous.

    I don't follow this stuff closely, but it's weird how it's flipped. Epstein has been a cause célèbre for nutters on the right who think there's been a big cover up.
    Well its because Trump egged them on and they didn't consider that perhaps the great leader moved in the same circles as all the well known Democrats and general rich and famous at that point in history so it was highly likely he was at plenty of events together.

    I don' think it is massive tin foil hat stuff to say that Epstein whole story doesn't really add up. His seemingly limitless wealth doesn't really seem to tally with some two bit financial con jobs (and there is tangible assets like the island, many crazy homes, etc so it wasn't all just made up magic money BS) and the way he got access to absolutely everybody.

    He did work for the mutlti-billionaire bloke who owned Victoria Secret, so there definitely could have been further financial impropriety there.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,884
    Foxy said:

    So a millionaire billionaire sex-offender doesn't want to publish the details of his friendship with a millionaire sex offender?

    Obviously nothing to see there.

    …. And other millionaires and billionaires sex offenders who knew the millionaire sex offender are hoping the tide won’t drown them as well

    Fixed that for you
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,924
    FPT because we all like bar charts as well as speculation on Covid-induced brain and behaviour changes:-
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Covid was bad for our brains (even for those who didn’t catch it)

    The emotional strain of the pandemic, including isolation and uncertainty about the future, took a toll on the population’s health, a study has suggested" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/healthcare/article/covid-was-bad-for-our-brains-even-for-those-who-didnt-catch-it-h756l7q88

    Doesn't surprise me. If you aren't active mentally and physically bad things happen, you can't store fitness and I am sure little to no mental stimulation is similar. And if you didn't live in a detached home with a garden, every day will have been stressful.

    When i talk to friends who are teachers they say developmentally kids seem well behind in both mental and social skills.
    From British schoolchildren to American airline passengers, something has gone wrong:-

    Incidents where airline passengers have disrupted flights with threatening or violent behavior are an ongoing problem and airlines have seen rapid growth in occurrences since 2021.
    https://www.faa.gov/unruly
    Is 2021 a good baseline, given there were still substantial Covid restrictions then?
    From the FAA report, showing incidents of unruly behaviour before and after 2021:-


    https://www.faa.gov/unruly
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,884
    edited July 23
    tlg86 said:

    I am still of the opinion that is there was something really big against Trump it would have been used by now. The media have had 12 years to use it. Instead it will be drip drip of rather embarrassing here is Trump at an event and so is Epstein. But of course we know so was all the rich and famous.

    I don't follow this stuff closely, but it's weird how it's flipped. Epstein has been a cause célèbre for nutters on the right who think there's been a big cover up.
    I don’t think you need to be a butter of any description to think that there has been a coverup.

    Epstein was a pimp. Due to the especially gross nature of his operation, his clients are all criminals as well. Of an especially egregious kind. None have even been arrested.

    The phrase “too big to fail” comes to mind.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,473
    I'm on the move today, so here's one from yesterday. Sun, lake, sand, trees, dog, ball...what more do you need? Well, yes, insect repellent, obviously, but still...


  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,434

    Even if this damages Trump in terms of public opinion, how much does that matter for practical purposes?

    I'm sure that Stalin (say) liked adulation and disliked criticism, but he never let that affect his behaviour, did he?

    Well it certainly affected how much time he spent each night on his shooting lists.

    Comrade X says Stalin's farts smell of farts - death
    Comrade Y says Stalin's farts smell of Mitsuko - death due to tainting Comrade Staln with degenerate cosmopolitan fragrance
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,971

    FPT because we all like bar charts as well as speculation on Covid-induced brain and behaviour changes:-

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Covid was bad for our brains (even for those who didn’t catch it)

    The emotional strain of the pandemic, including isolation and uncertainty about the future, took a toll on the population’s health, a study has suggested" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/healthcare/article/covid-was-bad-for-our-brains-even-for-those-who-didnt-catch-it-h756l7q88

    Doesn't surprise me. If you aren't active mentally and physically bad things happen, you can't store fitness and I am sure little to no mental stimulation is similar. And if you didn't live in a detached home with a garden, every day will have been stressful.

    When i talk to friends who are teachers they say developmentally kids seem well behind in both mental and social skills.
    From British schoolchildren to American airline passengers, something has gone wrong:-

    Incidents where airline passengers have disrupted flights with threatening or violent behavior are an ongoing problem and airlines have seen rapid growth in occurrences since 2021.
    https://www.faa.gov/unruly
    Is 2021 a good baseline, given there were still substantial Covid restrictions then?
    From the FAA report, showing incidents of unruly behaviour before and after 2021:-


    https://www.faa.gov/unruly
    Or, more reports are made. Remember the spate of stoppages at football games for spectators taken ill? That's fizzled out. Had a young woman collapse next to me at Wolves away in April 2024. The game carried on.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,473

    FPT because we all like bar charts as well as speculation on Covid-induced brain and behaviour changes:-

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Covid was bad for our brains (even for those who didn’t catch it)

    The emotional strain of the pandemic, including isolation and uncertainty about the future, took a toll on the population’s health, a study has suggested" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/healthcare/article/covid-was-bad-for-our-brains-even-for-those-who-didnt-catch-it-h756l7q88

    Doesn't surprise me. If you aren't active mentally and physically bad things happen, you can't store fitness and I am sure little to no mental stimulation is similar. And if you didn't live in a detached home with a garden, every day will have been stressful.

    When i talk to friends who are teachers they say developmentally kids seem well behind in both mental and social skills.
    From British schoolchildren to American airline passengers, something has gone wrong:-

    Incidents where airline passengers have disrupted flights with threatening or violent behavior are an ongoing problem and airlines have seen rapid growth in occurrences since 2021.
    https://www.faa.gov/unruly
    Is 2021 a good baseline, given there were still substantial Covid restrictions then?
    From the FAA report, showing incidents of unruly behaviour before and after 2021:-


    https://www.faa.gov/unruly
    Odd, that; my recollection is that in 2021 it was still quite tough to travel, and Americans didn't really start doing so internationally until 2022. Are those domestic US incidents?
  • scampi25scampi25 Posts: 196

    Morning all. Some polling to start the day from More In Commons weekly poll conducted 18-20 Jul

    Ref 29 (+2)
    Lab 22 (-2)
    Con 21 (+1)
    LD 15 (+1)
    Green 8 (-1)
    SNP 2 (-1)

    Everything fairly steady, Labour starting to fall back from their mini recovery back to their post election lows perhaps

    Cons closing on second?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,291

    I am still of the opinion that is there was something really big against Trump it would have been used by now. The media have had 12 years to use it. Instead it will be drip drip of rather embarrassing here is Trump at an event and so is Epstein. But of course we know so was all the rich and famous.

    Trump and Epstein were much closer friends than a casual meet up on the NY social scene.

    One thing we see in a lot of these scandals, similar to the UK ones in TV entertainment, are some of the changing ideas about sex with young, often underage girls. In the Seventies and Eighties it wasn't considered a big deal. Just men being men, and sexual liberation, even in mainstream films such as Pretty Woman, or Rita, Sue and Bob Too.

    One thing people forget with Eighties nostalgia is how dark things could be at the time.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,332
    Foxy said:

    I am still of the opinion that is there was something really big against Trump it would have been used by now. The media have had 12 years to use it. Instead it will be drip drip of rather embarrassing here is Trump at an event and so is Epstein. But of course we know so was all the rich and famous.

    Trump and Epstein were much closer friends than a casual meet up on the NY social scene.

    One thing we see in a lot of these scandals, similar to the UK ones in TV entertainment, are some of the changing ideas about sex with young, often underage girls. In the Seventies and Eighties it wasn't considered a big deal. Just men being men, and sexual liberation, even in mainstream films such as Pretty Woman, or Rita, Sue and Bob Too.

    One thing people forget with Eighties nostalgia is how dark things could be at the time.
    Ditto the 'swinging sixties'.

    Although I agree with your post, I'd also add that the 'prey' were not just young girls. Lots of young boys suffered abuse as well, by those so inclined.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,291

    tlg86 said:

    I am still of the opinion that is there was something really big against Trump it would have been used by now. The media have had 12 years to use it. Instead it will be drip drip of rather embarrassing here is Trump at an event and so is Epstein. But of course we know so was all the rich and famous.

    I don't follow this stuff closely, but it's weird how it's flipped. Epstein has been a cause célèbre for nutters on the right who think there's been a big cover up.
    I don’t think you need to be a butter of any description to think that there has been a coverup.

    Epstein was a pimp. Due to the especially gross nature of his operation, his clients are all criminals as well. Of an especially egregious kind. None have even been arrested.

    The phrase “too big to fail” comes to mind.
    It is notable that the only person in the nick for Epsteins crimes is a woman.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,884

    Even if this damages Trump in terms of public opinion, how much does that matter for practical purposes?

    I'm sure that Stalin (say) liked adulation and disliked criticism, but he never let that affect his behaviour, did he?

    Well it certainly affected how much time he spent each night on his shooting lists.

    Comrade X says Stalin's farts smell of farts - death
    Comrade Y says Stalin's farts smell of Mitsuko - death due to tainting Comrade Staln with degenerate cosmopolitan fragrance
    Actually, Stalin (like Hitler) used all kinds of data, gathered by the secret police, to modulate the presentation of policy. He really worked at portraying himself as an above the fray - “If only the leader knew”.

    His regular disposal of underlings was a part of that image.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,017
    edited July 23
    Foxy said:

    I am still of the opinion that is there was something really big against Trump it would have been used by now. The media have had 12 years to use it. Instead it will be drip drip of rather embarrassing here is Trump at an event and so is Epstein. But of course we know so was all the rich and famous.

    Trump and Epstein were much closer friends than a casual meet up on the NY social scene.

    One thing we see in a lot of these scandals, similar to the UK ones in TV entertainment, are some of the changing ideas about sex with young, often underage girls. In the Seventies and Eighties it wasn't considered a big deal. Just men being men, and sexual liberation, even in mainstream films such as Pretty Woman, or Rita, Sue and Bob Too.

    One thing people forget with Eighties nostalgia is how dark things could be at the time.
    But it hasn't changed that much since Me Too. If they had something really bad it surely would have been deployed to stop him ever being president again. And the Democrats (who will have been at a lot of the events) paid for research on him, law officials have dug into his affairs* and the media go over everything in minute detail for 12 years.

    * I mean the criminal conviction they got him on was overstating the value of property to get a loan which he paid back. I mean that seems pretty small beer if they had Epstein material to connect him.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,690
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/23/private-eye-cartoon-arrest-ian-hislop-protest

    Yet another example of the absurd and sinister shutting down of debate over the Israeli genocide in Gaza stemming from the proscription of Palestine Action, who are not a terrorist organisation under any common sense understanding of that term. This is only going to escalate as there are millions of people who feel exactly as this man does and the police can't arrest all of us.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,332

    tlg86 said:

    I am still of the opinion that is there was something really big against Trump it would have been used by now. The media have had 12 years to use it. Instead it will be drip drip of rather embarrassing here is Trump at an event and so is Epstein. But of course we know so was all the rich and famous.

    I don't follow this stuff closely, but it's weird how it's flipped. Epstein has been a cause célèbre for nutters on the right who think there's been a big cover up.
    I don’t think you need to be a butter of any description to think that there has been a coverup.

    Epstein was a pimp. Due to the especially gross nature of his operation, his clients are all criminals as well. Of an especially egregious kind. None have even been arrested.

    The phrase “too big to fail” comes to mind.
    IMV it's slightly more complex than that. Epstein was a pimp, but he was also many other things. People in his circle could easily not have been abusing kids, even if others were.

    It is perfectly possible to say: "I visited Epstein's island and didn't abuse anyone." But I do think many of the visitors knew, or suspected, what was going on, and kept quiet, That damns them.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,924

    tlg86 said:

    I am still of the opinion that is there was something really big against Trump it would have been used by now. The media have had 12 years to use it. Instead it will be drip drip of rather embarrassing here is Trump at an event and so is Epstein. But of course we know so was all the rich and famous.

    I don't follow this stuff closely, but it's weird how it's flipped. Epstein has been a cause célèbre for nutters on the right who think there's been a big cover up.
    Well its because Trump egged them on and they didn't consider that perhaps the great leader moved in the same circles as all the well known Democrats and general rich and famous at that point in history so it was highly likely he was at plenty of events together.

    I don' think it is massive tin foil hat stuff to say that Epstein whole story doesn't really add up. His seemingly limitless wealth doesn't really seem to tally with some two bit financial con jobs (and there is tangible assets like the island, many crazy homes, etc so it wasn't all just made up magic money BS) and the way he got access to absolutely everybody.

    He did work for the mutlti-billionaire bloke who owned Victoria Secret, so there definitely could have been further financial impropriety there.
    The second Epstein conspiracy theory is that he was working for a foreign intelligence agency with a big cheque book who could use third parties to channel funds his way. Older British readers will recall similar speculation about Robert Maxwell having been a Mossad asset although it is hard to see any parallels between Cap'n Bob, murky finances, his friends in high places, his mysterious suicide/murder on his yacht, the Lady Ghislaine, and Jeffrey Epstein.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,932
    edited July 23
    I see Len McCluskey is as much a man of the people as I am as we both love soccer.

    Len McCluskey took private jet flights arranged by building firm, report claims

    Contractor on Unite’s disastrous hotel project also allegedly gave football tickets to former union boss


    A summary of his interim report, seen by the Guardian, said:

    The union spent “at least” £72m more than the hotel complex was worth.

    Unite awarded the Flanagan Group the contract to build the hotel with “no competitive tendering process” and despite the company “having a history of poor performance, delays … and cost overruns on previous contracts”.

    McCluskey described the company’s bosses as “good friends”.

    A £400,000 union loan towards the purchase of a £700,000 flat for McCluskey had not been authorised by the executive committee in advance.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/jul/22/len-mccluskey-took-private-jet-flights-arranged-by-building-firm-report-claims

    I also note McCluskey has employed Carter-Ruck, again very man of the people.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,017
    edited July 23

    tlg86 said:

    I am still of the opinion that is there was something really big against Trump it would have been used by now. The media have had 12 years to use it. Instead it will be drip drip of rather embarrassing here is Trump at an event and so is Epstein. But of course we know so was all the rich and famous.

    I don't follow this stuff closely, but it's weird how it's flipped. Epstein has been a cause célèbre for nutters on the right who think there's been a big cover up.
    Well its because Trump egged them on and they didn't consider that perhaps the great leader moved in the same circles as all the well known Democrats and general rich and famous at that point in history so it was highly likely he was at plenty of events together.

    I don' think it is massive tin foil hat stuff to say that Epstein whole story doesn't really add up. His seemingly limitless wealth doesn't really seem to tally with some two bit financial con jobs (and there is tangible assets like the island, many crazy homes, etc so it wasn't all just made up magic money BS) and the way he got access to absolutely everybody.

    He did work for the mutlti-billionaire bloke who owned Victoria Secret, so there definitely could have been further financial impropriety there.
    The second Epstein conspiracy theory is that he was working for a foreign intelligence agency with a big cheque book who could use third parties to channel funds his way. Older British readers will recall similar speculation about Robert Maxwell having been a Mossad asset although it is hard to see any parallels between Cap'n Bob, murky finances, his friends in high places, his mysterious suicide/murder on his yacht, the Lady Ghislaine, and Jeffrey Epstein.
    I don't think that conspiracy theory is totally bat shit crazy. And it doesn't even need to go down the weird conspiracy theory that all world leaders have weird kinks, it could easily have been that he was an intelligence asset and also a paedo.

    I have heard tech bros say he turned up at their parties and it was all about him trying to get involved with the companies, pushy all about the inner working without any suggestions beyond business.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,559

    Foxy said:

    I am still of the opinion that is there was something really big against Trump it would have been used by now. The media have had 12 years to use it. Instead it will be drip drip of rather embarrassing here is Trump at an event and so is Epstein. But of course we know so was all the rich and famous.

    Trump and Epstein were much closer friends than a casual meet up on the NY social scene.

    One thing we see in a lot of these scandals, similar to the UK ones in TV entertainment, are some of the changing ideas about sex with young, often underage girls. In the Seventies and Eighties it wasn't considered a big deal. Just men being men, and sexual liberation, even in mainstream films such as Pretty Woman, or Rita, Sue and Bob Too.

    One thing people forget with Eighties nostalgia is how dark things could be at the time.
    But it hasn't changed that much since Me Too. If they had something really bad it surely would have been deployed to stop him ever being president again. And the Democrats (who will have been at a lot of the events) paid for research on him, law officials have dug into his affairs* and the media go over everything in minute detail for 12 years.

    * I mean the criminal conviction they got him on was overstating the value of property to get a loan which he paid back. I mean that seems pretty small beer if they had Epstein material to connect him.
    Me Too was a load of horse manure
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,884

    tlg86 said:

    I am still of the opinion that is there was something really big against Trump it would have been used by now. The media have had 12 years to use it. Instead it will be drip drip of rather embarrassing here is Trump at an event and so is Epstein. But of course we know so was all the rich and famous.

    I don't follow this stuff closely, but it's weird how it's flipped. Epstein has been a cause célèbre for nutters on the right who think there's been a big cover up.
    Well its because Trump egged them on and they didn't consider that perhaps the great leader moved in the same circles as all the well known Democrats and general rich and famous at that point in history so it was highly likely he was at plenty of events together.

    I don' think it is massive tin foil hat stuff to say that Epstein whole story doesn't really add up. His seemingly limitless wealth doesn't really seem to tally with some two bit financial con jobs (and there is tangible assets like the island, many crazy homes, etc so it wasn't all just made up magic money BS) and the way he got access to absolutely everybody.

    He did work for the mutlti-billionaire bloke who owned Victoria Secret, so there definitely could have been further financial impropriety there.
    The second Epstein conspiracy theory is that he was working for a foreign intelligence agency with a big cheque book who could use third parties to channel funds his way. Older British readers will recall similar speculation about Robert Maxwell having been a Mossad asset although it is hard to see any parallels between Cap'n Bob, murky finances, his friends in high places, his mysterious suicide/murder on his yacht, the Lady Ghislaine, and Jeffrey Epstein.
    I don’t think it is much of a conspiracy theory to think that Epstein was using the information he possessed a leverage with a number of government agencies. His first arrest and plea bargain seems to make it pretty evident that he had information that the US government thought was pretty valuable
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,017
    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    I am still of the opinion that is there was something really big against Trump it would have been used by now. The media have had 12 years to use it. Instead it will be drip drip of rather embarrassing here is Trump at an event and so is Epstein. But of course we know so was all the rich and famous.

    Trump and Epstein were much closer friends than a casual meet up on the NY social scene.

    One thing we see in a lot of these scandals, similar to the UK ones in TV entertainment, are some of the changing ideas about sex with young, often underage girls. In the Seventies and Eighties it wasn't considered a big deal. Just men being men, and sexual liberation, even in mainstream films such as Pretty Woman, or Rita, Sue and Bob Too.

    One thing people forget with Eighties nostalgia is how dark things could be at the time.
    But it hasn't changed that much since Me Too. If they had something really bad it surely would have been deployed to stop him ever being president again. And the Democrats (who will have been at a lot of the events) paid for research on him, law officials have dug into his affairs* and the media go over everything in minute detail for 12 years.

    * I mean the criminal conviction they got him on was overstating the value of property to get a loan which he paid back. I mean that seems pretty small beer if they had Epstein material to connect him.
    Me Too was a load of horse manure
    You might think that, but remember they really thought grab by the pussy was the absolute nail in his coffin. And then it wasn't. If they had Epstein stuff, it seems logical they deploy that.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,017

    I see Len McCluskey is as much a man of the people as I am as we both love soccer.

    Len McCluskey took private jet flights arranged by building firm, report claims

    Contractor on Unite’s disastrous hotel project also allegedly gave football tickets to former union boss


    A summary of his interim report, seen by the Guardian, said:

    The union spent “at least” £72m more than the hotel complex was worth.

    Unite awarded the Flanagan Group the contract to build the hotel with “no competitive tendering process” and despite the company “having a history of poor performance, delays … and cost overruns on previous contracts”.

    McCluskey described the company’s bosses as “good friends”.

    A £400,000 union loan towards the purchase of a £700,000 flat for McCluskey had not been authorised by the executive committee in advance.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/jul/22/len-mccluskey-took-private-jet-flights-arranged-by-building-firm-report-claims

    I also note McCluskey has employed Carter-Ruck, again very man of the people.

    Up the weeeerrrrkkkkeeersssssss comrade.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,653
    There is an awful lot of glee from MAGA spanners who seem convinced that "Barak Hussein Obama" is about to be arrested for "Treason".

    Erm, remember that total presidential immunity granted by the Supreme Court?

    Even if Obama had conspired with Russia to defame Trump (stop laughing at the back), he is now immune.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,332
    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    I am still of the opinion that is there was something really big against Trump it would have been used by now. The media have had 12 years to use it. Instead it will be drip drip of rather embarrassing here is Trump at an event and so is Epstein. But of course we know so was all the rich and famous.

    Trump and Epstein were much closer friends than a casual meet up on the NY social scene.

    One thing we see in a lot of these scandals, similar to the UK ones in TV entertainment, are some of the changing ideas about sex with young, often underage girls. In the Seventies and Eighties it wasn't considered a big deal. Just men being men, and sexual liberation, even in mainstream films such as Pretty Woman, or Rita, Sue and Bob Too.

    One thing people forget with Eighties nostalgia is how dark things could be at the time.
    But it hasn't changed that much since Me Too. If they had something really bad it surely would have been deployed to stop him ever being president again. And the Democrats (who will have been at a lot of the events) paid for research on him, law officials have dug into his affairs* and the media go over everything in minute detail for 12 years.

    * I mean the criminal conviction they got him on was overstating the value of property to get a loan which he paid back. I mean that seems pretty small beer if they had Epstein material to connect him.
    Me Too was a load of horse manure
    Why?

    We are discussing abuse by people with power. MeToo was a campaign to show that it had not only happened, but that it was still going on. It shed, and sheds, a little light on a very dark topic.

    The alternative is for abuse, sexual and otherwise, to go on and remain hidden. That's the way it used to be, and I don't think that's good.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,993
    scampi25 said:



    Morning all. Some polling to start the day from More In Commons weekly poll conducted 18-20 Jul

    Ref 29 (+2)
    Lab 22 (-2)
    Con 21 (+1)
    LD 15 (+1)
    Green 8 (-1)
    SNP 2 (-1)

    Everything fairly steady, Labour starting to fall back from their mini recovery back to their post election lows perhaps

    Cons closing on second?
    Not quite yet i think. They are averaging about 4 points behind Labour recently. You might get the odd crossover, same with Con/LD there may be the occasional flip on current averages the other way. Lab/LD flips are fun to watch for in the future.
    If the Tories got their polling average to 20 then theyd probably feature in second more regularly.
    Labour are starting to buckle a bit though
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,790
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,332

    I see Len McCluskey is as much a man of the people as I am as we both love soccer.

    Len McCluskey took private jet flights arranged by building firm, report claims

    Contractor on Unite’s disastrous hotel project also allegedly gave football tickets to former union boss


    A summary of his interim report, seen by the Guardian, said:

    The union spent “at least” £72m more than the hotel complex was worth.

    Unite awarded the Flanagan Group the contract to build the hotel with “no competitive tendering process” and despite the company “having a history of poor performance, delays … and cost overruns on previous contracts”.

    McCluskey described the company’s bosses as “good friends”.

    A £400,000 union loan towards the purchase of a £700,000 flat for McCluskey had not been authorised by the executive committee in advance.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/jul/22/len-mccluskey-took-private-jet-flights-arranged-by-building-firm-report-claims

    I also note McCluskey has employed Carter-Ruck, again very man of the people.

    Up the weeeerrrrkkkkeeersssssss comrade.
    It does have some parallels with Soviet/Russian leaders having Dachas built from 'diverted' funds...
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,559
    edited July 23

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/23/private-eye-cartoon-arrest-ian-hislop-protest

    Yet another example of the absurd and sinister shutting down of debate over the Israeli genocide in Gaza stemming from the proscription of Palestine Action, who are not a terrorist organisation under any common sense understanding of that term. This is only going to escalate as there are millions of people who feel exactly as this man does and the police can't arrest all of us.

    You think they give a crap, only some crocodile tears from them now as some of the public are upset. They have shown their true colours with their super injunction use of the bent justice system. They will do nothing other than make an example of some patsies to ensure the peasants are quietened down.
    Be interesting to see you test your theory.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,924

    I see Len McCluskey is as much a man of the people as I am as we both love soccer.

    Len McCluskey took private jet flights arranged by building firm, report claims

    Contractor on Unite’s disastrous hotel project also allegedly gave football tickets to former union boss


    A summary of his interim report, seen by the Guardian, said:

    The union spent “at least” £72m more than the hotel complex was worth.

    Unite awarded the Flanagan Group the contract to build the hotel with “no competitive tendering process” and despite the company “having a history of poor performance, delays … and cost overruns on previous contracts”.

    McCluskey described the company’s bosses as “good friends”.

    A £400,000 union loan towards the purchase of a £700,000 flat for McCluskey had not been authorised by the executive committee in advance.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/jul/22/len-mccluskey-took-private-jet-flights-arranged-by-building-firm-report-claims

    I also note McCluskey has employed Carter-Ruck, again very man of the people.

    Very old fashioned too. iirc from Ian Hislop, libel suits have fallen out of favour and the rich and powerful now use privacy laws to shield their goings-on.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,559
    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    I am still of the opinion that is there was something really big against Trump it would have been used by now. The media have had 12 years to use it. Instead it will be drip drip of rather embarrassing here is Trump at an event and so is Epstein. But of course we know so was all the rich and famous.

    I don't follow this stuff closely, but it's weird how it's flipped. Epstein has been a cause célèbre for nutters on the right who think there's been a big cover up.
    I don’t think you need to be a butter of any description to think that there has been a coverup.

    Epstein was a pimp. Due to the especially gross nature of his operation, his clients are all criminals as well. Of an especially egregious kind. None have even been arrested.

    The phrase “too big to fail” comes to mind.
    It is notable that the only person in the nick for Epsteins crimes is a woman.
    Also odd she is not singing like a canary, though probably prefers that she can walk out some day. Unlikely she is in anything other than a cushy cell.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,924
    Bloody protestors. Bunch of racists. Lock 'em up. Also in the Times:-

    Five Met officers in court over Christmas party brawl
    [names redacted] became involved in an alleged punch-up with a group of Romanians

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/five-met-officers-in-court-over-christmas-party-brawl-g0nsbn66b (£££)
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,924
    tlg86 said:

    FPT because we all like bar charts as well as speculation on Covid-induced brain and behaviour changes:-

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Covid was bad for our brains (even for those who didn’t catch it)

    The emotional strain of the pandemic, including isolation and uncertainty about the future, took a toll on the population’s health, a study has suggested" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/healthcare/article/covid-was-bad-for-our-brains-even-for-those-who-didnt-catch-it-h756l7q88

    Doesn't surprise me. If you aren't active mentally and physically bad things happen, you can't store fitness and I am sure little to no mental stimulation is similar. And if you didn't live in a detached home with a garden, every day will have been stressful.

    When i talk to friends who are teachers they say developmentally kids seem well behind in both mental and social skills.
    From British schoolchildren to American airline passengers, something has gone wrong:-

    Incidents where airline passengers have disrupted flights with threatening or violent behavior are an ongoing problem and airlines have seen rapid growth in occurrences since 2021.
    https://www.faa.gov/unruly
    Is 2021 a good baseline, given there were still substantial Covid restrictions then?
    From the FAA report, showing incidents of unruly behaviour before and after 2021:-


    https://www.faa.gov/unruly
    Or, more reports are made. Remember the spate of stoppages at football games for spectators taken ill? That's fizzled out. Had a young woman collapse next to me at Wolves away in April 2024. The game carried on.
    The paradox is that if you are right, you are wrong, because increased sensitivity leading to more reports would also be a post-Covid change in behaviour.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,654

    There is an awful lot of glee from MAGA spanners who seem convinced that "Barak Hussein Obama" is about to be arrested for "Treason".

    Erm, remember that total presidential immunity granted by the Supreme Court?

    Even if Obama had conspired with Russia to defame Trump (stop laughing at the back), he is now immune.

    I guess there will be some “reasons” why it’s different, maybe it’s not retrospective - I can’t be bothered to look it up but who knows. Of course as MAGA can prove Obama was born in Kenya and so couldn’t be president then as he wasn’t legally president he isn’t covered by total presidential immunity.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 52,291
    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    I am still of the opinion that is there was something really big against Trump it would have been used by now. The media have had 12 years to use it. Instead it will be drip drip of rather embarrassing here is Trump at an event and so is Epstein. But of course we know so was all the rich and famous.

    Trump and Epstein were much closer friends than a casual meet up on the NY social scene.

    One thing we see in a lot of these scandals, similar to the UK ones in TV entertainment, are some of the changing ideas about sex with young, often underage girls. In the Seventies and Eighties it wasn't considered a big deal. Just men being men, and sexual liberation, even in mainstream films such as Pretty Woman, or Rita, Sue and Bob Too.

    One thing people forget with Eighties nostalgia is how dark things could be at the time.
    But it hasn't changed that much since Me Too. If they had something really bad it surely would have been deployed to stop him ever being president again. And the Democrats (who will have been at a lot of the events) paid for research on him, law officials have dug into his affairs* and the media go over everything in minute detail for 12 years.

    * I mean the criminal conviction they got him on was overstating the value of property to get a loan which he paid back. I mean that seems pretty small beer if they had Epstein material to connect him.
    Me Too was a load of horse manure
    Says an older man...

    The exposures of what went on with Al-Fayad, and also in my own profession* shows that predatory sexual behaviour of older men on younger women (and men) is not unusual at all. Indeed it has probably been so throughout history and across many societies.

    The question is, should we tolerate it for the future?

    * for example: https://www.bma.org.uk/bma-media-centre/bma-responds-to-female-surgeons-sexual-assault-survey
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,971

    tlg86 said:

    FPT because we all like bar charts as well as speculation on Covid-induced brain and behaviour changes:-

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Covid was bad for our brains (even for those who didn’t catch it)

    The emotional strain of the pandemic, including isolation and uncertainty about the future, took a toll on the population’s health, a study has suggested" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/healthcare/article/covid-was-bad-for-our-brains-even-for-those-who-didnt-catch-it-h756l7q88

    Doesn't surprise me. If you aren't active mentally and physically bad things happen, you can't store fitness and I am sure little to no mental stimulation is similar. And if you didn't live in a detached home with a garden, every day will have been stressful.

    When i talk to friends who are teachers they say developmentally kids seem well behind in both mental and social skills.
    From British schoolchildren to American airline passengers, something has gone wrong:-

    Incidents where airline passengers have disrupted flights with threatening or violent behavior are an ongoing problem and airlines have seen rapid growth in occurrences since 2021.
    https://www.faa.gov/unruly
    Is 2021 a good baseline, given there were still substantial Covid restrictions then?
    From the FAA report, showing incidents of unruly behaviour before and after 2021:-


    https://www.faa.gov/unruly
    Or, more reports are made. Remember the spate of stoppages at football games for spectators taken ill? That's fizzled out. Had a young woman collapse next to me at Wolves away in April 2024. The game carried on.
    The paradox is that if you are right, you are wrong, because increased sensitivity leading to more reports would also be a post-Covid change in behaviour.
    Oh yes, I don't disagree. And, my example is the classic case of something fizzling out whereas what you've shown is a sustained change, which is interesting.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,184
    scampi25 said:



    Morning all. Some polling to start the day from More In Commons weekly poll conducted 18-20 Jul

    Ref 29 (+2)
    Lab 22 (-2)
    Con 21 (+1)
    LD 15 (+1)
    Green 8 (-1)
    SNP 2 (-1)

    Everything fairly steady, Labour starting to fall back from their mini recovery back to their post election lows perhaps

    Cons closing on second?
    With other pollsters they're closing on fourth.

    (Autocorrect wanted to change pollsters to polluters.)
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,559

    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    I am still of the opinion that is there was something really big against Trump it would have been used by now. The media have had 12 years to use it. Instead it will be drip drip of rather embarrassing here is Trump at an event and so is Epstein. But of course we know so was all the rich and famous.

    Trump and Epstein were much closer friends than a casual meet up on the NY social scene.

    One thing we see in a lot of these scandals, similar to the UK ones in TV entertainment, are some of the changing ideas about sex with young, often underage girls. In the Seventies and Eighties it wasn't considered a big deal. Just men being men, and sexual liberation, even in mainstream films such as Pretty Woman, or Rita, Sue and Bob Too.

    One thing people forget with Eighties nostalgia is how dark things could be at the time.
    But it hasn't changed that much since Me Too. If they had something really bad it surely would have been deployed to stop him ever being president again. And the Democrats (who will have been at a lot of the events) paid for research on him, law officials have dug into his affairs* and the media go over everything in minute detail for 12 years.

    * I mean the criminal conviction they got him on was overstating the value of property to get a loan which he paid back. I mean that seems pretty small beer if they had Epstein material to connect him.
    Me Too was a load of horse manure
    Why?

    We are discussing abuse by people with power. MeToo was a campaign to show that it had not only happened, but that it was still going on. It shed, and sheds, a little light on a very dark topic.

    The alternative is for abuse, sexual and otherwise, to go on and remain hidden. That's the way it used to be, and I don't think that's good.
    There were very few ordinary people involved and it achieved feck all as the rich punters could afford to buy justice as has always been the case. It was hijacked by z listers and people looking to make a buck as well as some well meaning patsies. If you think it achieved anything you are dreaming , look around UK do you see any change whatsoever.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,924
    Foxy said:

    I am still of the opinion that is there was something really big against Trump it would have been used by now. The media have had 12 years to use it. Instead it will be drip drip of rather embarrassing here is Trump at an event and so is Epstein. But of course we know so was all the rich and famous.

    Trump and Epstein were much closer friends than a casual meet up on the NY social scene.

    One thing we see in a lot of these scandals, similar to the UK ones in TV entertainment, are some of the changing ideas about sex with young, often underage girls. In the Seventies and Eighties it wasn't considered a big deal. Just men being men, and sexual liberation, even in mainstream films such as Pretty Woman, or Rita, Sue and Bob Too.

    One thing people forget with Eighties nostalgia is how dark things could be at the time.
    Indeed things have changed and it might be that Trump has belatedly realised that his 20th Century behaviour will be examined through 21st Century lenses. There is also, at least here, perhaps a class element too. It is not just working class boys getting their rocks off on holiday in Magaluf, at the same time as posh women are pearl-clutching about dodgy jokes on Celebrity Masterchef.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,294
    edited July 23
    ...
    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    I am still of the opinion that is there was something really big against Trump it would have been used by now. The media have had 12 years to use it. Instead it will be drip drip of rather embarrassing here is Trump at an event and so is Epstein. But of course we know so was all the rich and famous.

    Trump and Epstein were much closer friends than a casual meet up on the NY social scene.

    One thing we see in a lot of these scandals, similar to the UK ones in TV entertainment, are some of the changing ideas about sex with young, often underage girls. In the Seventies and Eighties it wasn't considered a big deal. Just men being men, and sexual liberation, even in mainstream films such as Pretty Woman, or Rita, Sue and Bob Too.

    One thing people forget with Eighties nostalgia is how dark things could be at the time.
    But it hasn't changed that much since Me Too. If they had something really bad it surely would have been deployed to stop him ever being president again. And the Democrats (who will have been at a lot of the events) paid for research on him, law officials have dug into his affairs* and the media go over everything in minute detail for 12 years.

    * I mean the criminal conviction they got him on was overstating the value of property to get a loan which he paid back. I mean that seems pretty small beer if they had Epstein material to connect him.
    Me Too was a load of horse manure
    Does Scotland still have pictures of bikini clad "hens" on cans of Tennants?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,559
    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    I am still of the opinion that is there was something really big against Trump it would have been used by now. The media have had 12 years to use it. Instead it will be drip drip of rather embarrassing here is Trump at an event and so is Epstein. But of course we know so was all the rich and famous.

    Trump and Epstein were much closer friends than a casual meet up on the NY social scene.

    One thing we see in a lot of these scandals, similar to the UK ones in TV entertainment, are some of the changing ideas about sex with young, often underage girls. In the Seventies and Eighties it wasn't considered a big deal. Just men being men, and sexual liberation, even in mainstream films such as Pretty Woman, or Rita, Sue and Bob Too.

    One thing people forget with Eighties nostalgia is how dark things could be at the time.
    But it hasn't changed that much since Me Too. If they had something really bad it surely would have been deployed to stop him ever being president again. And the Democrats (who will have been at a lot of the events) paid for research on him, law officials have dug into his affairs* and the media go over everything in minute detail for 12 years.

    * I mean the criminal conviction they got him on was overstating the value of property to get a loan which he paid back. I mean that seems pretty small beer if they had Epstein material to connect him.
    Me Too was a load of horse manure
    Says an older man...

    The exposures of what went on with Al-Fayad, and also in my own profession* shows that predatory sexual behaviour of older men on younger women (and men) is not unusual at all. Indeed it has probably been so throughout history and across many societies.

    The question is, should we tolerate it for the future?

    * for example: https://www.bma.org.uk/bma-media-centre/bma-responds-to-female-surgeons-sexual-assault-survey
    Yawn, there speaks a CHUMP. 20 -30 years later plenty jump on band wagon as some rich bloke is shown to have used money and power to get his wicked way with people. Why did they accept it then , either punch his lights out or move jobs.
    Name one thing that Me Too has done other than enrich a few z listers. It was not ever going to stop rich establishment people doing what they want. They have their chums and the justice system to help, jsut like the rape gangs we see every other day in the papers.
    Do they do anything about real current abuse , NO.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,669

    tlg86 said:

    I am still of the opinion that is there was something really big against Trump it would have been used by now. The media have had 12 years to use it. Instead it will be drip drip of rather embarrassing here is Trump at an event and so is Epstein. But of course we know so was all the rich and famous.

    I don't follow this stuff closely, but it's weird how it's flipped. Epstein has been a cause célèbre for nutters on the right who think there's been a big cover up.
    Well its because Trump egged them on and they didn't consider that perhaps the great leader moved in the same circles as all the well known Democrats and general rich and famous at that point in history so it was highly likely he was at plenty of events together.

    I don' think it is massive tin foil hat stuff to say that Epstein whole story doesn't really add up. His seemingly limitless wealth doesn't really seem to tally with some two bit financial con jobs (and there is tangible assets like the island, many crazy homes, etc so it wasn't all just made up magic money BS) and the way he got access to absolutely everybody.

    He did work for the mutlti-billionaire bloke who owned Victoria Secret, so there definitely could have been further financial impropriety there.
    The second Epstein conspiracy theory is that he was working for a foreign intelligence agency with a big cheque book who could use third parties to channel funds his way. Older British readers will recall similar speculation about Robert Maxwell having been a Mossad asset although it is hard to see any parallels between Cap'n Bob, murky finances, his friends in high places, his mysterious suicide/murder on his yacht, the Lady Ghislaine, and Jeffrey Epstein.
    I remember my heart leapt with anticipation when Lady G. started posting on here. Just another of life's bitter disappointments.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,559
    More like the arse is out of Britain's trousers, immigrants attack the police and police get arrested.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,993
    edited July 23

    scampi25 said:



    Morning all. Some polling to start the day from More In Commons weekly poll conducted 18-20 Jul

    Ref 29 (+2)
    Lab 22 (-2)
    Con 21 (+1)
    LD 15 (+1)
    Green 8 (-1)
    SNP 2 (-1)

    Everything fairly steady, Labour starting to fall back from their mini recovery back to their post election lows perhaps

    Cons closing on second?
    With other pollsters they're closing on fourth.

    (Autocorrect wanted to change pollsters to polluters.)
    A product of 4 to 5 party politics.
    You could easily get right now

    Ref - Lab - LD - Con and
    Ref - Con - Lab - LD

    In the same week

    Once Labour shed a couple more points or the Dried Fruits come on stream you can add Labour 4th to the possible mix
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,924
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    FPT because we all like bar charts as well as speculation on Covid-induced brain and behaviour changes:-

    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Covid was bad for our brains (even for those who didn’t catch it)

    The emotional strain of the pandemic, including isolation and uncertainty about the future, took a toll on the population’s health, a study has suggested" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/healthcare/article/covid-was-bad-for-our-brains-even-for-those-who-didnt-catch-it-h756l7q88

    Doesn't surprise me. If you aren't active mentally and physically bad things happen, you can't store fitness and I am sure little to no mental stimulation is similar. And if you didn't live in a detached home with a garden, every day will have been stressful.

    When i talk to friends who are teachers they say developmentally kids seem well behind in both mental and social skills.
    From British schoolchildren to American airline passengers, something has gone wrong:-

    Incidents where airline passengers have disrupted flights with threatening or violent behavior are an ongoing problem and airlines have seen rapid growth in occurrences since 2021.
    https://www.faa.gov/unruly
    Is 2021 a good baseline, given there were still substantial Covid restrictions then?
    From the FAA report, showing incidents of unruly behaviour before and after 2021:-


    https://www.faa.gov/unruly
    Or, more reports are made. Remember the spate of stoppages at football games for spectators taken ill? That's fizzled out. Had a young woman collapse next to me at Wolves away in April 2024. The game carried on.
    The paradox is that if you are right, you are wrong, because increased sensitivity leading to more reports would also be a post-Covid change in behaviour.
    Oh yes, I don't disagree. And, my example is the classic case of something fizzling out whereas what you've shown is a sustained change, which is interesting.
    If I were in the government, or even on a well-resourced newspaper, I'd be setting up an inquiry into post-Covid changes, looking at other proxy measures like, say, school exclusions or traffic accidents, to see if there have been lingering, across-the-board effects.

    Although that might trigger the tin-foil hat-wearers. Was it the virus, the vaccines, the lockdowns? This could run and run.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,434
    edited July 23
    'Khanmuncher'
    I sense squeaky Ant struggles with lots of things, eg apostrophes.

    Ant Middleton
    @antmiddleton
    Who like’s my new dog? He’s called Khanmuncher! I’m going to struggle getting him on a plane from Australia to UK… 🫡🇬🇧

    https://x.com/antmiddleton/status/1947568108132307081
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,522
    "IND vs ENG, 4th Test: Manchester pitch report, ground conditions, stats; India win/loss record at venue
    Manchester Test pitch report: Here are the ground conditions of Old Trafford before the fourth India vs England Test starting Wednesday."

    https://sportstar.thehindu.com/cricket/ind-vs-eng-4th-test-manchester-pitch-report-ground-conditions-records-batting-bowling-stats-toss-factor/article69843161.ece
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,924
    boulay said:

    There is an awful lot of glee from MAGA spanners who seem convinced that "Barak Hussein Obama" is about to be arrested for "Treason".

    Erm, remember that total presidential immunity granted by the Supreme Court?

    Even if Obama had conspired with Russia to defame Trump (stop laughing at the back), he is now immune.

    I guess there will be some “reasons” why it’s different, maybe it’s not retrospective - I can’t be bothered to look it up but who knows. Of course as MAGA can prove Obama was born in Kenya and so couldn’t be president then as he wasn’t legally president he isn’t covered by total presidential immunity.
    Excellent legal reasoning. Are you a Cambridge-educated lawyer, perchance? Is there a bookmaker offering a price against boulay being the first PBer appointed Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States of America?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,434
    Makes one yearn for the innocent days of the 'Go Home' vans.

    https://x.com/NicholasGuyatt/status/1947595022087688302
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,749

    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    I am still of the opinion that is there was something really big against Trump it would have been used by now. The media have had 12 years to use it. Instead it will be drip drip of rather embarrassing here is Trump at an event and so is Epstein. But of course we know so was all the rich and famous.

    Trump and Epstein were much closer friends than a casual meet up on the NY social scene.

    One thing we see in a lot of these scandals, similar to the UK ones in TV entertainment, are some of the changing ideas about sex with young, often underage girls. In the Seventies and Eighties it wasn't considered a big deal. Just men being men, and sexual liberation, even in mainstream films such as Pretty Woman, or Rita, Sue and Bob Too.

    One thing people forget with Eighties nostalgia is how dark things could be at the time.
    But it hasn't changed that much since Me Too. If they had something really bad it surely would have been deployed to stop him ever being president again. And the Democrats (who will have been at a lot of the events) paid for research on him, law officials have dug into his affairs* and the media go over everything in minute detail for 12 years.

    * I mean the criminal conviction they got him on was overstating the value of property to get a loan which he paid back. I mean that seems pretty small beer if they had Epstein material to connect him.
    Me Too was a load of horse manure
    Says an older man...

    The exposures of what went on with Al-Fayad, and also in my own profession* shows that predatory sexual behaviour of older men on younger women (and men) is not unusual at all. Indeed it has probably been so throughout history and across many societies.

    The question is, should we tolerate it for the future?

    * for example: https://www.bma.org.uk/bma-media-centre/bma-responds-to-female-surgeons-sexual-assault-survey
    Yawn, there speaks a CHUMP. 20 -30 years later plenty jump on band wagon as some rich bloke is shown to have used money and power to get his wicked way with people. Why did they accept it then , either punch his lights out or move jobs.
    Name one thing that Me Too has done other than enrich a few z listers. It was not ever going to stop rich establishment people doing what they want. They have their chums and the justice system to help, jsut like the rape gangs we see every other day in the papers.
    Do they do anything about real current abuse , NO.
    Yes, it has made a change. When women report this stuff now, companies and organisations are afraid.

    Afraid enough to do something.

    Reputational and legal risk has reached “the talent” and the CEOs.

    There are numerous examples of people at the top being binned for this shit.
    I understand that Malcolm is retired so I am not sure how he claims to have any idea whatsoever what the workplace is like these days.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,993
    edited July 23

    boulay said:

    There is an awful lot of glee from MAGA spanners who seem convinced that "Barak Hussein Obama" is about to be arrested for "Treason".

    Erm, remember that total presidential immunity granted by the Supreme Court?

    Even if Obama had conspired with Russia to defame Trump (stop laughing at the back), he is now immune.

    I guess there will be some “reasons” why it’s different, maybe it’s not retrospective - I can’t be bothered to look it up but who knows. Of course as MAGA can prove Obama was born in Kenya and so couldn’t be president then as he wasn’t legally president he isn’t covered by total presidential immunity.
    Excellent legal reasoning. Are you a Cambridge-educated lawyer, perchance? Is there a bookmaker offering a price against boulay being the first PBer appointed Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States of America?
    Id assume his immunity only covers things he allegedly did whilst president, not anything after midday Jan 20th 2017
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,749

    Makes one yearn for the innocent days of the 'Go Home' vans.

    https://x.com/NicholasGuyatt/status/1947595022087688302

    People need to get a grip. You can support Palestine and be against Israeli actions without supporting the absolute whoppers who caused millions of pounds of damage to public military equipment.
  • boulay said:

    There is an awful lot of glee from MAGA spanners who seem convinced that "Barak Hussein Obama" is about to be arrested for "Treason".

    Erm, remember that total presidential immunity granted by the Supreme Court?

    Even if Obama had conspired with Russia to defame Trump (stop laughing at the back), he is now immune.

    I guess there will be some “reasons” why it’s different, maybe it’s not retrospective - I can’t be bothered to look it up but who knows. Of course as MAGA can prove Obama was born in Kenya and so couldn’t be president then as he wasn’t legally president he isn’t covered by total presidential immunity.
    Excellent legal reasoning. Are you a Cambridge-educated lawyer, perchance? Is there a bookmaker offering a price against boulay being the first PBer appointed Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States of America?
    Id assume his immunity only covers things he allegedly did whilst president, not anything after midday Jan 20th 2017
    "from the beginning of the World to the day before today" was the medieval formulation in England.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,205
    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    I am still of the opinion that is there was something really big against Trump it would have been used by now. The media have had 12 years to use it. Instead it will be drip drip of rather embarrassing here is Trump at an event and so is Epstein. But of course we know so was all the rich and famous.

    Trump and Epstein were much closer friends than a casual meet up on the NY social scene.

    One thing we see in a lot of these scandals, similar to the UK ones in TV entertainment, are some of the changing ideas about sex with young, often underage girls. In the Seventies and Eighties it wasn't considered a big deal. Just men being men, and sexual liberation, even in mainstream films such as Pretty Woman, or Rita, Sue and Bob Too.

    One thing people forget with Eighties nostalgia is how dark things could be at the time.
    But it hasn't changed that much since Me Too. If they had something really bad it surely would have been deployed to stop him ever being president again. And the Democrats (who will have been at a lot of the events) paid for research on him, law officials have dug into his affairs* and the media go over everything in minute detail for 12 years.

    * I mean the criminal conviction they got him on was overstating the value of property to get a loan which he paid back. I mean that seems pretty small beer if they had Epstein material to connect him.
    Me Too was a load of horse manure
    Says an older man...

    The exposures of what went on with Al-Fayad, and also in my own profession* shows that predatory sexual behaviour of older men on younger women (and men) is not unusual at all. Indeed it has probably been so throughout history and across many societies.

    The question is, should we tolerate it for the future?

    * for example: https://www.bma.org.uk/bma-media-centre/bma-responds-to-female-surgeons-sexual-assault-survey
    Yawn, there speaks a CHUMP. 20 -30 years later plenty jump on band wagon as some rich bloke is shown to have used money and power to get his wicked way with people. Why did they accept it then , either punch his lights out or move jobs.
    Name one thing that Me Too has done other than enrich a few z listers. It was not ever going to stop rich establishment people doing what they want. They have their chums and the justice system to help, jsut like the rape gangs we see every other day in the papers.
    Do they do anything about real current abuse , NO.
    I think it did little, but every little helps.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,850
    India on a toss losing streak of 13 consecutive.
    50-50 chance of extending that to 14, which has an a priori probability of 0.006% !
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,017
    edited July 23

    Makes one yearn for the innocent days of the 'Go Home' vans.

    https://x.com/NicholasGuyatt/status/1947595022087688302

    People need to get a grip. You can support Palestine and be against Israeli actions without supporting the absolute whoppers who caused millions of pounds of damage to public military equipment.
    Also the authorities are still being extremely accommodating for those wanting to have weekly protest marches. You are free to go on your SWP / Stop the War Coalition organised march every weekend without any issue. They will even let you shout and scream offensive chants.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,749
    Pulpstar said:

    India on a toss losing streak of 13 consecutive.
    50-50 chance of extending that to 14, which has an a priori probability of 0.006% !

    Just like when I play roulette.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,308

    'Khanmuncher'
    I sense squeaky Ant struggles with lots of things, eg apostrophes.

    Ant Middleton
    @antmiddleton
    Who like’s my new dog? He’s called Khanmuncher! I’m going to struggle getting him on a plane from Australia to UK… 🫡🇬🇧

    https://x.com/antmiddleton/status/1947568108132307081

    It's all that time he spent with Dec.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,993

    boulay said:

    There is an awful lot of glee from MAGA spanners who seem convinced that "Barak Hussein Obama" is about to be arrested for "Treason".

    Erm, remember that total presidential immunity granted by the Supreme Court?

    Even if Obama had conspired with Russia to defame Trump (stop laughing at the back), he is now immune.

    I guess there will be some “reasons” why it’s different, maybe it’s not retrospective - I can’t be bothered to look it up but who knows. Of course as MAGA can prove Obama was born in Kenya and so couldn’t be president then as he wasn’t legally president he isn’t covered by total presidential immunity.
    Excellent legal reasoning. Are you a Cambridge-educated lawyer, perchance? Is there a bookmaker offering a price against boulay being the first PBer appointed Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States of America?
    Id assume his immunity only covers things he allegedly did whilst president, not anything after midday Jan 20th 2017
    "from the beginning of the World to the day before today" was the medieval formulation in England.
    The Supreme court ruling goes for the more reasonable 'committed whilst president for acts within core constitutional responsibilities' or words similar.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,205

    Makes one yearn for the innocent days of the 'Go Home' vans.

    https://x.com/NicholasGuyatt/status/1947595022087688302

    People need to get a grip. You can support Palestine and be against Israeli actions without supporting the absolute whoppers who caused millions of pounds of damage to public military equipment.
    Palestine Action are a poor hill to die upon.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,256
    The Times’ end of term report. Glad to see that it is poor for Sir Keir

    The use of ‘signally’ feels odd, shouldn’t it be ‘singularly’?

    Out of the three parties that matter most, only one will be looking forward to autumn. When parliament packed up for the summer recess this time last year, the new Labour administration had a stonking majority, a sense of confidence and a clear plan of action. Twelve months on, morale has collapsed. Rarely have a government’s fortunes declined so far, so fast.

    This is not the consequence of world events or the vagaries of the global economy: Sir Keir Starmer is to blame. He came into power with the stated aim of boosting the economy’s performance to improve public services. But prioritising growth demanded a degree of discipline that he has signally failed to demonstrate.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,434

    Makes one yearn for the innocent days of the 'Go Home' vans.

    https://x.com/NicholasGuyatt/status/1947595022087688302

    People need to get a grip. You can support Palestine and be against Israeli actions without supporting the absolute whoppers who caused millions of pounds of damage to public military equipment.
    Also the authorities are still being extremely accommodating for those wanting to have weekly protest marches.
    I think the Orange Order have more than weekly marches at this time of year.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,712

    Foxy said:

    I am still of the opinion that is there was something really big against Trump it would have been used by now. The media have had 12 years to use it. Instead it will be drip drip of rather embarrassing here is Trump at an event and so is Epstein. But of course we know so was all the rich and famous.

    Trump and Epstein were much closer friends than a casual meet up on the NY social scene.

    One thing we see in a lot of these scandals, similar to the UK ones in TV entertainment, are some of the changing ideas about sex with young, often underage girls. In the Seventies and Eighties it wasn't considered a big deal. Just men being men, and sexual liberation, even in mainstream films such as Pretty Woman, or Rita, Sue and Bob Too.

    One thing people forget with Eighties nostalgia is how dark things could be at the time.
    But it hasn't changed that much since Me Too. If they had something really bad it surely would have been deployed to stop him ever being president again. And the Democrats (who will have been at a lot of the events) paid for research on him, law officials have dug into his affairs* and the media go over everything in minute detail for 12 years.

    * I mean the criminal conviction they got him on was overstating the value of property to get a loan which he paid back. I mean that seems pretty small beer if they had Epstein material to connect him.
    The only evidence tying Trump to wrongdoing in relation to Epstein is witness testimony from women and we know (from bitter experience) that means zilch in relation to sex crimes. All the men who might testify are keeping schtum.

    The idea that Epstein might have kept documentary evidence appears not to be the case, but it sustains the conspiracy theory.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,088
    Nothing as yet at Watergate level for Trump but we will see what Ghislaine has to say
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,434
    Sean_F said:

    Makes one yearn for the innocent days of the 'Go Home' vans.

    https://x.com/NicholasGuyatt/status/1947595022087688302

    People need to get a grip. You can support Palestine and be against Israeli actions without supporting the absolute whoppers who caused millions of pounds of damage to public military equipment.
    Palestine Action are a poor hill to die upon.
    For supporters or HMG to get its knickers in a twist over, or both?
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,228

    boulay said:

    There is an awful lot of glee from MAGA spanners who seem convinced that "Barak Hussein Obama" is about to be arrested for "Treason".

    Erm, remember that total presidential immunity granted by the Supreme Court?

    Even if Obama had conspired with Russia to defame Trump (stop laughing at the back), he is now immune.

    I guess there will be some “reasons” why it’s different, maybe it’s not retrospective - I can’t be bothered to look it up but who knows. Of course as MAGA can prove Obama was born in Kenya and so couldn’t be president then as he wasn’t legally president he isn’t covered by total presidential immunity.
    Excellent legal reasoning. Are you a Cambridge-educated lawyer, perchance? Is there a bookmaker offering a price against boulay being the first PBer appointed Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States of America?
    Id assume his immunity only covers things he allegedly did whilst president, not anything after midday Jan 20th 2017
    "from the beginning of the World to the day before today" was the medieval formulation in England.
    The Supreme court ruling goes for the more reasonable 'committed whilst president for acts within core constitutional responsibilities' or words similar.
    The attack on Obama will also reveal information not currently in the public domain. Perhaps there was Russian interference and perhaps Trump is a Russian asset. And perhaps I will have a lie down in my Trump-proof tinfoil hat.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,369
    HYUFD said:

    Nothing as yet at Watergate level for Trump but we will see what Ghislaine has to say

    She'll say she never met Trump in exchange for a pardon
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,583

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/23/private-eye-cartoon-arrest-ian-hislop-protest

    Yet another example of the absurd and sinister shutting down of debate over the Israeli genocide in Gaza stemming from the proscription of Palestine Action, who are not a terrorist organisation under any common sense understanding of that term. This is only going to escalate as there are millions of people who feel exactly as this man does and the police can't arrest all of us.

    So the outcome is no charges.
    The fact that you don't think Palestine Action should be labelled as a terrorist organisation is irrelevant - it has been labelled as such by the government in power. I have some sympathy for the plod who are usually not that bright. He was holding a placard with 'Palestine Action' all over it.

    I seem to recall rather a lot of debate on Gaza on PB in recent days - I do not see any sinister shutting down of debate. If you want to go and protest in support of Palestinians you are free to do so, as so may have.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,205
    Foxy said:

    I am still of the opinion that is there was something really big against Trump it would have been used by now. The media have had 12 years to use it. Instead it will be drip drip of rather embarrassing here is Trump at an event and so is Epstein. But of course we know so was all the rich and famous.

    Trump and Epstein were much closer friends than a casual meet up on the NY social scene.

    One thing we see in a lot of these scandals, similar to the UK ones in TV entertainment, are some of the changing ideas about sex with young, often underage girls. In the Seventies and Eighties it wasn't considered a big deal. Just men being men, and sexual liberation, even in mainstream films such as Pretty Woman, or Rita, Sue and Bob Too.

    One thing people forget with Eighties nostalgia is how dark things could be at the time.
    MASH is the big example. The protagonists’ behaviour was presented as being hilarious, men just having fun, when in fact, it’s just abusive and nasty.

    People with older values, at the time, would have seen their behaviour as abusive, so it’s an interesting example of society turning back from libertinism.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,712

    There is an awful lot of glee from MAGA spanners who seem convinced that "Barak Hussein Obama" is about to be arrested for "Treason".

    Erm, remember that total presidential immunity granted by the Supreme Court?

    Even if Obama had conspired with Russia to defame Trump (stop laughing at the back), he is now immune.

    One of the features of law under authoritarian systems is that it is applied arbitrarily and inconsistently.

    It would not surprise me to see Obama arrested and convicted at the same time as Trump was protected by Presidential immunity. Though it's a bit early for such a dramatic escalation. Give it time.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,966
    What a pity:

    Derek Huffman, a 46-year-old Texan father who relocated his family to Russia to escape woke ideology, has been unexpectedly sent to the frontlines of the war against Ukraine, despite assurances of a non-combat role in the Russian military.

    Huffman moved his wife, DeAnna, and their three daughters, along with their husky, to Istra near Moscow under Russia's Shared Values visa scheme, designed to attract foreigners who reject neoliberal ideology.

    His deployment has occurred with minimal training and limited Russian language skills, raising serious concerns about his prospects for battlefield survival.


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/texas-man-who-moved-to-russia-to-escape-woke-us-now-forced-to-fight-in-war-against-ukraine/ar-AA1J4TW1
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,749

    There is an awful lot of glee from MAGA spanners who seem convinced that "Barak Hussein Obama" is about to be arrested for "Treason".

    Erm, remember that total presidential immunity granted by the Supreme Court?

    Even if Obama had conspired with Russia to defame Trump (stop laughing at the back), he is now immune.

    One of the features of law under authoritarian systems is that it is applied arbitrarily and inconsistently.

    It would not surprise me to see Obama arrested and convicted at the same time as Trump was protected by Presidential immunity. Though it's a bit early for such a dramatic escalation. Give it time.
    What crime has Obama supposedly committed?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,065

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/23/private-eye-cartoon-arrest-ian-hislop-protest

    Yet another example of the absurd and sinister shutting down of debate over the Israeli genocide in Gaza stemming from the proscription of Palestine Action, who are not a terrorist organisation under any common sense understanding of that term. This is only going to escalate as there are millions of people who feel exactly as this man does and the police can't arrest all of us.

    So the outcome is no charges.
    The fact that you don't think Palestine Action should be labelled as a terrorist organisation is irrelevant - it has been labelled as such by the government in power. I have some sympathy for the plod who are usually not that bright. He was holding a placard with 'Palestine Action' all over it.

    I seem to recall rather a lot of debate on Gaza on PB in recent days - I do not see any sinister shutting down of debate. If you want to go and protest in support of Palestinians you are free to do so, as so may have.
    But see

    https://x.com/AmnestyUK/status/1945811909782982923
  • PJHPJH Posts: 880

    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    I am still of the opinion that is there was something really big against Trump it would have been used by now. The media have had 12 years to use it. Instead it will be drip drip of rather embarrassing here is Trump at an event and so is Epstein. But of course we know so was all the rich and famous.

    Trump and Epstein were much closer friends than a casual meet up on the NY social scene.

    One thing we see in a lot of these scandals, similar to the UK ones in TV entertainment, are some of the changing ideas about sex with young, often underage girls. In the Seventies and Eighties it wasn't considered a big deal. Just men being men, and sexual liberation, even in mainstream films such as Pretty Woman, or Rita, Sue and Bob Too.

    One thing people forget with Eighties nostalgia is how dark things could be at the time.
    But it hasn't changed that much since Me Too. If they had something really bad it surely would have been deployed to stop him ever being president again. And the Democrats (who will have been at a lot of the events) paid for research on him, law officials have dug into his affairs* and the media go over everything in minute detail for 12 years.

    * I mean the criminal conviction they got him on was overstating the value of property to get a loan which he paid back. I mean that seems pretty small beer if they had Epstein material to connect him.
    Me Too was a load of horse manure
    Says an older man...

    The exposures of what went on with Al-Fayad, and also in my own profession* shows that predatory sexual behaviour of older men on younger women (and men) is not unusual at all. Indeed it has probably been so throughout history and across many societies.

    The question is, should we tolerate it for the future?

    * for example: https://www.bma.org.uk/bma-media-centre/bma-responds-to-female-surgeons-sexual-assault-survey
    Yawn, there speaks a CHUMP. 20 -30 years later plenty jump on band wagon as some rich bloke is shown to have used money and power to get his wicked way with people. Why did they accept it then , either punch his lights out or move jobs.
    Name one thing that Me Too has done other than enrich a few z listers. It was not ever going to stop rich establishment people doing what they want. They have their chums and the justice system to help, jsut like the rape gangs we see every other day in the papers.
    Do they do anything about real current abuse , NO.
    Yes, it has made a change. When women report this stuff now, companies and organisations are afraid.

    Afraid enough to do something.

    Reputational and legal risk has reached “the talent” and the CEOs.

    There are numerous examples of people at the top being binned for this shit.
    Indeed. We no longer have a company Christmas party because (I understand) there were various occurrences of harassment at the past and the company would now be liable if they were to occur now under the current law. I think there were some recent changes - employment lawyers on the board would know. The one thing that scares Directors above all else is being held legally accountable for anything.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,205
    algarkirk said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/23/private-eye-cartoon-arrest-ian-hislop-protest

    Yet another example of the absurd and sinister shutting down of debate over the Israeli genocide in Gaza stemming from the proscription of Palestine Action, who are not a terrorist organisation under any common sense understanding of that term. This is only going to escalate as there are millions of people who feel exactly as this man does and the police can't arrest all of us.

    So the outcome is no charges.
    The fact that you don't think Palestine Action should be labelled as a terrorist organisation is irrelevant - it has been labelled as such by the government in power. I have some sympathy for the plod who are usually not that bright. He was holding a placard with 'Palestine Action' all over it.

    I seem to recall rather a lot of debate on Gaza on PB in recent days - I do not see any sinister shutting down of debate. If you want to go and protest in support of Palestinians you are free to do so, as so may have.
    But see

    https://x.com/AmnestyUK/status/1945811909782982923
    IMHO, PA qualify as a terrorist organisation. They are working in service to our country’s enemies.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 129,088
    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    I am still of the opinion that is there was something really big against Trump it would have been used by now. The media have had 12 years to use it. Instead it will be drip drip of rather embarrassing here is Trump at an event and so is Epstein. But of course we know so was all the rich and famous.

    Trump and Epstein were much closer friends than a casual meet up on the NY social scene.

    One thing we see in a lot of these scandals, similar to the UK ones in TV entertainment, are some of the changing ideas about sex with young, often underage girls. In the Seventies and Eighties it wasn't considered a big deal. Just men being men, and sexual liberation, even in mainstream films such as Pretty Woman, or Rita, Sue and Bob Too.

    One thing people forget with Eighties nostalgia is how dark things could be at the time.
    But it hasn't changed that much since Me Too. If they had something really bad it surely would have been deployed to stop him ever being president again. And the Democrats (who will have been at a lot of the events) paid for research on him, law officials have dug into his affairs* and the media go over everything in minute detail for 12 years.

    * I mean the criminal conviction they got him on was overstating the value of property to get a loan which he paid back. I mean that seems pretty small beer if they had Epstein material to connect him.
    Me Too was a load of horse manure
    Says an older man...

    The exposures of what went on with Al-Fayad, and also in my own profession* shows that predatory sexual behaviour of older men on younger women (and men) is not unusual at all. Indeed it has probably been so throughout history and across many societies.

    The question is, should we tolerate it for the future?

    * for example: https://www.bma.org.uk/bma-media-centre/bma-responds-to-female-surgeons-sexual-assault-survey
    Yawn, there speaks a CHUMP. 20 -30 years later plenty jump on band wagon as some rich bloke is shown to have used money and power to get his wicked way with people. Why did they accept it then , either punch his lights out or move jobs.
    Name one thing that Me Too has done other than enrich a few z listers. It was not ever going to stop rich establishment people doing what they want. They have their chums and the justice system to help, jsut like the rape gangs we see every other day in the papers.
    Do they do anything about real current abuse , NO.
    Harvey Weinstein would disagree
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 86,017
    edited July 23

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/23/private-eye-cartoon-arrest-ian-hislop-protest

    Yet another example of the absurd and sinister shutting down of debate over the Israeli genocide in Gaza stemming from the proscription of Palestine Action, who are not a terrorist organisation under any common sense understanding of that term. This is only going to escalate as there are millions of people who feel exactly as this man does and the police can't arrest all of us.

    So the outcome is no charges.
    The fact that you don't think Palestine Action should be labelled as a terrorist organisation is irrelevant - it has been labelled as such by the government in power. I have some sympathy for the plod who are usually not that bright. He was holding a placard with 'Palestine Action' all over it.

    I seem to recall rather a lot of debate on Gaza on PB in recent days - I do not see any sinister shutting down of debate. If you want to go and protest in support of Palestinians you are free to do so, as so may have.
    I bet a load of these sheep following the twitter account telling them to break law were totally down with banging up racist twitter lady....and vice versa, shouldn't bang her up, but PA supporters got to go.

    We don't get to pick and choose the parts of the law we do and don't like without expecting it to be enforced.

    In reality I doubt all these PA supporters will get much if any punishment. I think it will be a warning not to repeat the behaviour, many will repeatedly and in 6-12 months one of them will end up getting a proper punishment.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 19,253
    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    I am still of the opinion that is there was something really big against Trump it would have been used by now. The media have had 12 years to use it. Instead it will be drip drip of rather embarrassing here is Trump at an event and so is Epstein. But of course we know so was all the rich and famous.

    Trump and Epstein were much closer friends than a casual meet up on the NY social scene.

    One thing we see in a lot of these scandals, similar to the UK ones in TV entertainment, are some of the changing ideas about sex with young, often underage girls. In the Seventies and Eighties it wasn't considered a big deal. Just men being men, and sexual liberation, even in mainstream films such as Pretty Woman, or Rita, Sue and Bob Too.

    One thing people forget with Eighties nostalgia is how dark things could be at the time.
    MASH is the big example. The protagonists’ behaviour was presented as being hilarious, men just having fun, when in fact, it’s just abusive and nasty.

    People with older values, at the time, would have seen their behaviour as abusive, so it’s an interesting example of society turning back from libertinism.
    MASH is an interesting one. The early series did have good characters being flat-out nasty towards women, but the cast changes (Blake to Potter, Trapper John to BJ, Burns to Winchester) increased the maturity level a lot.

    There's that line from the first Austin Powers movie, Right now we've got freedom and responsibility. It's a very groovy time. Admittedly, it's followed by a sequence of dick jokes, but one step at a time.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,924
    isam said:

    The Times’ end of term report. Glad to see that it is poor for Sir Keir

    The use of ‘signally’ feels odd, shouldn’t it be ‘singularly’?

    Out of the three parties that matter most, only one will be looking forward to autumn. When parliament packed up for the summer recess this time last year, the new Labour administration had a stonking majority, a sense of confidence and a clear plan of action. Twelve months on, morale has collapsed. Rarely have a government’s fortunes declined so far, so fast.

    This is not the consequence of world events or the vagaries of the global economy: Sir Keir Starmer is to blame. He came into power with the stated aim of boosting the economy’s performance to improve public services. But prioritising growth demanded a degree of discipline that he has signally failed to demonstrate.

    The presumably unintended rhyme is more jarring: “Sir Keir Starmer is to blame. He came into power with the stated aim”. With this break for doggerel, alongside “new Labour” recalling New Labour, the whole thing reeks of being hastily dictated and never read back.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,583
    algarkirk said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/23/private-eye-cartoon-arrest-ian-hislop-protest

    Yet another example of the absurd and sinister shutting down of debate over the Israeli genocide in Gaza stemming from the proscription of Palestine Action, who are not a terrorist organisation under any common sense understanding of that term. This is only going to escalate as there are millions of people who feel exactly as this man does and the police can't arrest all of us.

    So the outcome is no charges.
    The fact that you don't think Palestine Action should be labelled as a terrorist organisation is irrelevant - it has been labelled as such by the government in power. I have some sympathy for the plod who are usually not that bright. He was holding a placard with 'Palestine Action' all over it.

    I seem to recall rather a lot of debate on Gaza on PB in recent days - I do not see any sinister shutting down of debate. If you want to go and protest in support of Palestinians you are free to do so, as so may have.
    But see

    https://x.com/AmnestyUK/status/1945811909782982923
    So you have individual police making mistakes interpreting the law? Makes me reminisce about covid, park benches and cups of tea.

    Plod will always make mistakes. I notice in the link they were not actually arrested.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,434
    HYUFD said:

    Nothing as yet at Watergate level for Trump but we will see what Ghislaine has to say

    'There can be no whitewash at the White House, I prefer an orangey tone'

    What was notable about Watergate was the number of sackings in the run up as Nixon tried to evade being stuck with the ticking parcel. Difficult for Trump to blame his current coterie of sycophants for making him be besties with Epstein 30 years ago, though I'm sure he wouldn't be above trying.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,567

    tlg86 said:

    I am still of the opinion that is there was something really big against Trump it would have been used by now. The media have had 12 years to use it. Instead it will be drip drip of rather embarrassing here is Trump at an event and so is Epstein. But of course we know so was all the rich and famous.

    I don't follow this stuff closely, but it's weird how it's flipped. Epstein has been a cause célèbre for nutters on the right who think there's been a big cover up.
    I don’t think you need to be a butter of any description to think that there has been a coverup.

    Epstein was a pimp. Due to the especially gross nature of his operation, his clients are all criminals as well. Of an especially egregious kind. None have even been arrested.

    The phrase “too big to fail” comes to mind.
    The argument that "if there was something there it would already have come out" is pretty ridiculous in the light of what we know of Epstein's activities.

    And the idea that any kind of full investigation or disclosure is likely under the most corrupt administration in living memory, even more so.

    I'm fairly confident in predicting that most of those involved will be dead, the majority of them of natural causes, before more than a handful of Epstein's clients/associates are revealed.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,712

    There is an awful lot of glee from MAGA spanners who seem convinced that "Barak Hussein Obama" is about to be arrested for "Treason".

    Erm, remember that total presidential immunity granted by the Supreme Court?

    Even if Obama had conspired with Russia to defame Trump (stop laughing at the back), he is now immune.

    One of the features of law under authoritarian systems is that it is applied arbitrarily and inconsistently.

    It would not surprise me to see Obama arrested and convicted at the same time as Trump was protected by Presidential immunity. Though it's a bit early for such a dramatic escalation. Give it time.
    What crime has Obama supposedly committed?
    Treason in relation to the Russia "Hoax".

    But the details don't matter.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 15,065
    Sean_F said:

    Makes one yearn for the innocent days of the 'Go Home' vans.

    https://x.com/NicholasGuyatt/status/1947595022087688302

    People need to get a grip. You can support Palestine and be against Israeli actions without supporting the absolute whoppers who caused millions of pounds of damage to public military equipment.
    Palestine Action are a poor hill to die upon.
    Though Action For Palestine may be a better one.

    Our beloved government supports a two state solution. One of those states is Palestine. That some sort of action would be required to bring it about would be clear even to Sir Keir.

    (Voice off: 'Splitters')
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 33,294
    edited July 23
    HYUFD said:

    Nothing as yet at Watergate level for Trump but we will see what Ghislaine has to say

    Watergate was several dozen notches down from where we are with Trump. It is just the standards of decorum expected from a President don't apply any more.

    It's the weasely little sycophants like Mike Johnson who really make my flesh crawl.

    As Trump extricates himself from the Epstein fiasco the descent into post-Allende Argentina levels of autocracy and corruption are looming larger.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,567
    HYUFD said:

    Nothing as yet at Watergate level for Trump but we will see what Ghislaine has to say

    No, we'll see what Trumps minions reveal of what she has to say.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,850
    algarkirk said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/23/private-eye-cartoon-arrest-ian-hislop-protest

    Yet another example of the absurd and sinister shutting down of debate over the Israeli genocide in Gaza stemming from the proscription of Palestine Action, who are not a terrorist organisation under any common sense understanding of that term. This is only going to escalate as there are millions of people who feel exactly as this man does and the police can't arrest all of us.

    So the outcome is no charges.
    The fact that you don't think Palestine Action should be labelled as a terrorist organisation is irrelevant - it has been labelled as such by the government in power. I have some sympathy for the plod who are usually not that bright. He was holding a placard with 'Palestine Action' all over it.

    I seem to recall rather a lot of debate on Gaza on PB in recent days - I do not see any sinister shutting down of debate. If you want to go and protest in support of Palestinians you are free to do so, as so may have.
    But see

    https://x.com/AmnestyUK/status/1945811909782982923
    I'm normally supportive of the police, but these officers are thick as mince.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,924
    PJH said:

    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    I am still of the opinion that is there was something really big against Trump it would have been used by now. The media have had 12 years to use it. Instead it will be drip drip of rather embarrassing here is Trump at an event and so is Epstein. But of course we know so was all the rich and famous.

    Trump and Epstein were much closer friends than a casual meet up on the NY social scene.

    One thing we see in a lot of these scandals, similar to the UK ones in TV entertainment, are some of the changing ideas about sex with young, often underage girls. In the Seventies and Eighties it wasn't considered a big deal. Just men being men, and sexual liberation, even in mainstream films such as Pretty Woman, or Rita, Sue and Bob Too.

    One thing people forget with Eighties nostalgia is how dark things could be at the time.
    But it hasn't changed that much since Me Too. If they had something really bad it surely would have been deployed to stop him ever being president again. And the Democrats (who will have been at a lot of the events) paid for research on him, law officials have dug into his affairs* and the media go over everything in minute detail for 12 years.

    * I mean the criminal conviction they got him on was overstating the value of property to get a loan which he paid back. I mean that seems pretty small beer if they had Epstein material to connect him.
    Me Too was a load of horse manure
    Says an older man...

    The exposures of what went on with Al-Fayad, and also in my own profession* shows that predatory sexual behaviour of older men on younger women (and men) is not unusual at all. Indeed it has probably been so throughout history and across many societies.

    The question is, should we tolerate it for the future?

    * for example: https://www.bma.org.uk/bma-media-centre/bma-responds-to-female-surgeons-sexual-assault-survey
    Yawn, there speaks a CHUMP. 20 -30 years later plenty jump on band wagon as some rich bloke is shown to have used money and power to get his wicked way with people. Why did they accept it then , either punch his lights out or move jobs.
    Name one thing that Me Too has done other than enrich a few z listers. It was not ever going to stop rich establishment people doing what they want. They have their chums and the justice system to help, jsut like the rape gangs we see every other day in the papers.
    Do they do anything about real current abuse , NO.
    Yes, it has made a change. When women report this stuff now, companies and organisations are afraid.

    Afraid enough to do something.

    Reputational and legal risk has reached “the talent” and the CEOs.

    There are numerous examples of people at the top being binned for this shit.
    Indeed. We no longer have a company Christmas party because (I understand) there were various occurrences of harassment at the past and the company would now be liable if they were to occur now under the current law. I think there were some recent changes - employment lawyers on the board would know. The one thing that scares Directors above all else is being held legally accountable for anything.
    That and the repair bill for photocopiers after mainly female staff had sat on them.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 39,205
    PJH said:

    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    I am still of the opinion that is there was something really big against Trump it would have been used by now. The media have had 12 years to use it. Instead it will be drip drip of rather embarrassing here is Trump at an event and so is Epstein. But of course we know so was all the rich and famous.

    Trump and Epstein were much closer friends than a casual meet up on the NY social scene.

    One thing we see in a lot of these scandals, similar to the UK ones in TV entertainment, are some of the changing ideas about sex with young, often underage girls. In the Seventies and Eighties it wasn't considered a big deal. Just men being men, and sexual liberation, even in mainstream films such as Pretty Woman, or Rita, Sue and Bob Too.

    One thing people forget with Eighties nostalgia is how dark things could be at the time.
    But it hasn't changed that much since Me Too. If they had something really bad it surely would have been deployed to stop him ever being president again. And the Democrats (who will have been at a lot of the events) paid for research on him, law officials have dug into his affairs* and the media go over everything in minute detail for 12 years.

    * I mean the criminal conviction they got him on was overstating the value of property to get a loan which he paid back. I mean that seems pretty small beer if they had Epstein material to connect him.
    Me Too was a load of horse manure
    Says an older man...

    The exposures of what went on with Al-Fayad, and also in my own profession* shows that predatory sexual behaviour of older men on younger women (and men) is not unusual at all. Indeed it has probably been so throughout history and across many societies.

    The question is, should we tolerate it for the future?

    * for example: https://www.bma.org.uk/bma-media-centre/bma-responds-to-female-surgeons-sexual-assault-survey
    Yawn, there speaks a CHUMP. 20 -30 years later plenty jump on band wagon as some rich bloke is shown to have used money and power to get his wicked way with people. Why did they accept it then , either punch his lights out or move jobs.
    Name one thing that Me Too has done other than enrich a few z listers. It was not ever going to stop rich establishment people doing what they want. They have their chums and the justice system to help, jsut like the rape gangs we see every other day in the papers.
    Do they do anything about real current abuse , NO.
    Yes, it has made a change. When women report this stuff now, companies and organisations are afraid.

    Afraid enough to do something.

    Reputational and legal risk has reached “the talent” and the CEOs.

    There are numerous examples of people at the top being binned for this shit.
    Indeed. We no longer have a company Christmas party because (I understand) there were various occurrences of harassment at the past and the company would now be liable if they were to occur now under the current law. I think there were some recent changes - employment lawyers on the board would know. The one thing that scares Directors above all else is being held legally accountable for anything.
    The US attitude towards such things is bizarre. OTOH, companies fire people for having (entirely consensual), relationships with co-workers. On the other, you get President Pussygrabber and Epstein.
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