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The jury’s out – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,567
edited July 11 in General
The jury’s out – politicalbetting.com

60% of Britons would support proposals to create juryless 'intermediate courts' to try lower-level crimes, one of the recommendations made by Sir Brian Leveson's review of the backlog of cases in criminal courtsSupport: 60%Oppose: 14%yougov.co.uk/topics/polit…

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Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,715
    First?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,467
    edited July 11
    Ex-MP faces two-year wait for betting offences trial

    Because of the large number of defendants, two trials will take place, with the first on 6 September 2027, and the second on 3 January 2028.

    Mr Williams will be in the 2028 trial.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c056v0m56pyo
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,617
    edited July 11
    Polling question doesn't mention whether right to ask for a full Jury trial would exist under the new system. Kind of important, no?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,467
    edited July 11
    The Telegraph has seen a memo detailing plans for protests in support of the proscribed terror group over the next two weeks in cities including London, Manchester and Cardiff.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/07/11/palestine-action-supporters-told-go-floppy-arrested-protest/

    The ReformyGraph seem to continuously have the inside scoop on this group. PA need to check their ranks for a mole, I would start with the handful of non-poshos.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,467
    Footballers move aside, the nerds are taking over,

    In the battle for AI supremacy, Meta has just made a major move.

    Mark Zuckerberg's firm – which owns Facebook, Instagram and WhatsApp – has lured a renowned AI expert away from rival Apple with an eye-watering pay offer. Over the next 'several years', Ruoming Pang, originally from China, will earn more than $200 million (£147 million) in his new role, a report reveals.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-14896643/Meta-AI-researcher-rival-200-million-pay-offer.html
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,755

    Ex-MP faces two-year wait for betting offences trial

    Because of the large number of defendants, two trials will take place, with the first on 6 September 2027, and the second on 3 January 2028.

    Mr Williams will be in the 2028 trial.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c056v0m56pyo

    What an absolute waste of time and money. Don't the gambling commission have better things to do ?
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 1,108
    Are these the same judges who a few years ago were 'enemies of the state'?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,908
    ydoethur said:

    First?

    The jury will now find you guilty of insider dealing.

    Oh, apparently we're abandoning them.

    Not somebody I hold in high esteem, but Jacob Rees-Mogg was bang on the money when he said that juries are needed because they allow for a protection against an over mighty state.* Heck, that's how they first became enshrined in law with barons forcing King John to stop kidnapping them, stealing their lands and raping their daughters on a whim by instead having to have fair trials.

    *It's worth remembering he said that in response to the release of the Colston vandals whose defence was essentially 'we're smug rich bastards and have the right to smash up anything we like.' He didn't agree with their view, ironically, or the verdict, but he thought it illustrated the importance of the jury system in showing what should or shouldn't be crimes.
    That statue case is a little bit like local democracy. Clearly not many people were that bothered. Where it gets tricky for the authorities is if a statue etc. is contested. I mentioned the Bedsars in Woking and someone - it might have been you - said the views of one of them on apartheid was questionable.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,715
    Crystal Palace banned from Europa League and relegated to Conference League

    Crystal Palace have been banned from the Europa League and moved into the Conference League after Uefa concluded the FA Cup winners were in breach of its multi-club ownership rules.

    The ban had been expected after Lyon won their appeal against relegation to Ligue 2, clearing them to take their place in the tournament.

    Clubs with the same owner are barred from competing in the same Uefa competition if an individual or ownership group is considered to have a decisive influence over more than one of those teams.

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2025/jul/11/crystal-palace-banned-from-europa-league-and-relegated-to-conference-league?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,223
    @atrupar.com‬

    Pete Hegseth was not on Fox News this morning. They did play a clip of a video Hegseth posted on social media. Perhaps a confused Trump thought it was live.

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3ltp3htjkfc2h
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,314

    Crystal Palace banned from Europa League and relegated to Conference League

    Crystal Palace have been banned from the Europa League and moved into the Conference League after Uefa concluded the FA Cup winners were in breach of its multi-club ownership rules.

    The ban had been expected after Lyon won their appeal against relegation to Ligue 2, clearing them to take their place in the tournament.

    Clubs with the same owner are barred from competing in the same Uefa competition if an individual or ownership group is considered to have a decisive influence over more than one of those teams.

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2025/jul/11/crystal-palace-banned-from-europa-league-and-relegated-to-conference-league?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr :rage:
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,467
    edited July 11
    Oh sorry, I realised I went and did a no no. It was by accident.

    Cleaned version, BBC though they had a scoop on Rupert Lowe not declaring donations. Seems he was been cleared in double quick time.

    I think I would be concerned who is leaking bank statements to the BBC.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,908
    Funny thing is, Palace could easily win the Conference and qualify for the Europa next season.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,617
    Alcaraz through. Next up old man Djoko.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,467
    edited July 11
    carnforth said:

    Alcaraz through. Next up old man Djoko.

    Sinner will need some of that magic spray again I reckon, the way he keeps holding his arm when he mistimes a shot.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,467
    Stokes does it again....
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,755
    DavidL said:

    Juries are probably the worst way of determining guilt, apart from all the others of course. I generally find Juries take their role very seriously. Even if I disagree with their decisions I can usually see and understand how they got there. There is the odd exception, of course, but the same could be said about Sheriffs or Justices of the Peace. If I was ever facing a serious charge I would want a jury.

    Jury service is incredibly depressing. For absolutely every reason.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,982
    carnforth said:

    Alcaraz through. Next up old man Djoko.

    Djoko versus Sinner

    Anti-vaxxer versus possible drugs cheat?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,175
    An excellent idea.

    Petition to make Matt Berry the next James Bond.
    https://x.com/NoContextBrits/status/1943294137815421174
  • eekeek Posts: 30,630
    Worth remembering that the only reason the suggestion of intermediary courts is because the review criteria included costs had to be cut because there was no money.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,922
    edited July 11
    ydoethur said:

    First?

    The jury will now find you guilty of insider dealing.

    Oh, apparently we're abandoning them.

    Not somebody I hold in high esteem, but Jacob Rees-Mogg was bang on the money when he said that juries are needed because they allow for a protection against an over mighty state.* Heck, that's how they first became enshrined in law with barons forcing King John to stop kidnapping them, stealing their lands and raping their daughters on a whim by instead having to have fair trials.

    *It's worth remembering he said that in response to the release of the Colston vandals whose defence was essentially 'we're smug rich bastards and have the right to smash up anything we like.' He didn't agree with their view, ironically, or the verdict, but he thought it illustrated the importance of the jury system in showing what should or shouldn't be crimes.
    I am beginning to disagree, having been pro jury trials for ever. Some factors weight with me. One is the weight of expert and technical evidence which abound in many modern cases.

    Second is the problem of the long trials lasting weeks and months. Three is the need, which from a judge one would get, of a reasoned and appealable judgment as to why a verdict was reached - which with a jury no-one dares ask, even if it were legal to do so. Lucy Letby is a classic case of the sort where all these factors apply.

    Fourth, the bar has tended in recent decades towards length and spinning things out. You can't do that with a judge. Fifth, a judge can ask the questions the jury would want to ask but can't. Sixth, many cases make no sense to the average intellect.

    Finally, pragmatic. Unless we do this the backlog will never end.

    There is of course a strong case against this view.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,397
    Could someone translate that poll question, please? (That "as" does not make sense to this American.)
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,922

    Nigelb said:

    An excellent idea.

    Petition to make Matt Berry the next James Bond.
    https://x.com/NoContextBrits/status/1943294137815421174

    It's so hot I misread that as Mary Berry.
    What an excellent idea.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,141
    Total scandal, doing that to Palace.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,175

    Nigelb said:

    An excellent idea.

    Petition to make Matt Berry the next James Bond.
    https://x.com/NoContextBrits/status/1943294137815421174

    It's so hot I misread that as Mary Berry.
    I feel the cinematic possibilities would be slightly constrained.

    Though her targets would never suspect the poisoned petit fours.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,922
    DavidL said:

    Juries are probably the worst way of determining guilt, apart from all the others of course. I generally find Juries take their role very seriously. Even if I disagree with their decisions I can usually see and understand how they got there. There is the odd exception, of course, but the same could be said about Sheriffs or Justices of the Peace. If I was ever facing a serious charge I would want a jury.

    I am tentative about this, but I suspect I think that if I faced a serious charge and was guilty and wanted maximum chance of getting off I would want a jury. If I was innocent I would prefer a judge.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,169
    algarkirk said:

    ydoethur said:

    First?

    The jury will now find you guilty of insider dealing.

    Oh, apparently we're abandoning them.

    Not somebody I hold in high esteem, but Jacob Rees-Mogg was bang on the money when he said that juries are needed because they allow for a protection against an over mighty state.* Heck, that's how they first became enshrined in law with barons forcing King John to stop kidnapping them, stealing their lands and raping their daughters on a whim by instead having to have fair trials.

    *It's worth remembering he said that in response to the release of the Colston vandals whose defence was essentially 'we're smug rich bastards and have the right to smash up anything we like.' He didn't agree with their view, ironically, or the verdict, but he thought it illustrated the importance of the jury system in showing what should or shouldn't be crimes.
    I am beginning to disagree, having been pro jury trials for ever. Some factors weight with me. One is the weight of expert and technical evidence which abound in many modern cases.

    Second is the problem of the long trials lasting weeks and months. Three is the need, which from a judge one would get, of a reasoned and appealable judgment as to why a verdict was reached - which with a jury no-one dares ask, even if it were legal to do so. Lucy Letby is a classic case of the sort where all these factors apply.

    Fourth, the bar has tended in recent decades towards length and spinning things out. You can't do that with a judge. Fifth, a judge can ask the questions the jury would want to ask but can't. Sixth, many cases make no sense to the average intellect.

    Finally, pragmatic. Unless we do this the backlog will never end.

    There is of course a strong case against this view.
    You have a fair point on the length and complexity of trials, and hasn't that already been altered in certain fraud cases? I'm not sure though how a judge, who after all will have no incentive to keep things short, might make things more concise than a jury trial?

    On point five, juries can ask questions, albeit it must be through the judge.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,169
    algarkirk said:

    Nigelb said:

    An excellent idea.

    Petition to make Matt Berry the next James Bond.
    https://x.com/NoContextBrits/status/1943294137815421174

    It's so hot I misread that as Mary Berry.
    What an excellent idea.
    Eggsplosive.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,173
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_trial

    Singapore fully abolished the jury system in 1969, though jury trials for non-capital offenses had already been abolished a decade earlier. Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew, a former trial lawyer, explained why he supported the policy to the BBC and in his memoirs, saying, "I had no faith in a system that allowed the superstition, ignorance, biases, and prejudices of seven jurymen to determine guilt or innocence."
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,685
    We could call them... Magistrates Courts!

    And you know what, let's offer defendents a choice: they can *choose* the Jury trial over the Magistrates Court, but the potential punishments would be more severe if they chose the Jury trial and are convicted.

    What do you guys think?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,685
    algarkirk said:

    ydoethur said:

    First?

    The jury will now find you guilty of insider dealing.

    Oh, apparently we're abandoning them.

    Not somebody I hold in high esteem, but Jacob Rees-Mogg was bang on the money when he said that juries are needed because they allow for a protection against an over mighty state.* Heck, that's how they first became enshrined in law with barons forcing King John to stop kidnapping them, stealing their lands and raping their daughters on a whim by instead having to have fair trials.

    *It's worth remembering he said that in response to the release of the Colston vandals whose defence was essentially 'we're smug rich bastards and have the right to smash up anything we like.' He didn't agree with their view, ironically, or the verdict, but he thought it illustrated the importance of the jury system in showing what should or shouldn't be crimes.
    I am beginning to disagree, having been pro jury trials for ever. Some factors weight with me. One is the weight of expert and technical evidence which abound in many modern cases.

    Second is the problem of the long trials lasting weeks and months. Three is the need, which from a judge one would get, of a reasoned and appealable judgment as to why a verdict was reached - which with a jury no-one dares ask, even if it were legal to do so. Lucy Letby is a classic case of the sort where all these factors apply.

    Fourth, the bar has tended in recent decades towards length and spinning things out. You can't do that with a judge. Fifth, a judge can ask the questions the jury would want to ask but can't. Sixth, many cases make no sense to the average intellect.

    Finally, pragmatic. Unless we do this the backlog will never end.

    There is of course a strong case against this view.
    This proposal - as the Tweet says - is for "lower-level crimes", and I could be wrong, but I think the murder of babies would be considered at least mid-level.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,169
    edited July 11

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_trial

    Singapore fully abolished the jury system in 1969, though jury trials for non-capital offenses had already been abolished a decade earlier. Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew, a former trial lawyer, explained why he supported the policy to the BBC and in his memoirs, saying, "I had no faith in a system that allowed the superstition, ignorance, biases, and prejudices of seven jurymen to determine guilt or innocence."

    Indeed.

    Much better from his point of view to allow the bribe paid to the judge to decide it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,175
    rcs1000 said:

    We could call them... Magistrates Courts!

    And you know what, let's offer defendents a choice: they can *choose* the Jury trial over the Magistrates Court, but the potential punishments would be more severe if they chose the Jury trial and are convicted.

    What do you guys think?

    Except they would consist only of stipendiary magistrates, whose numbers would require considerable expansion.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,141
    On topic: try as I might I can't find in myself the reverence for jury trials that I know most people of my political sensibility have. So I'm with the 60% lumpen masses on this rather than the enlightened minority where you'd normally find me.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,175
    ydoethur said:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_trial

    Singapore fully abolished the jury system in 1969, though jury trials for non-capital offenses had already been abolished a decade earlier. Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew, a former trial lawyer, explained why he supported the policy to the BBC and in his memoirs, saying, "I had no faith in a system that allowed the superstition, ignorance, biases, and prejudices of seven jurymen to determine guilt or innocence."

    Indeed.

    Much better from his point of view to allow the bribe paid to the judge to decide it.
    Far more predictable, so of course one could place more faith in such a system.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,857
    Sounds sensible, Magistrates court cases verdicts are already decided by magistrates with no jury where no guilty plea
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,685
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    We could call them... Magistrates Courts!

    And you know what, let's offer defendents a choice: they can *choose* the Jury trial over the Magistrates Court, but the potential punishments would be more severe if they chose the Jury trial and are convicted.

    What do you guys think?

    Except they would consist only of stipendiary magistrates, whose numbers would require considerable expansion.
    I think increasing the number of stipendary magistrates is a good idea. Actually, I think expanding the pool of magistrates generally is a good idea.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 5,118
    edited July 11
    rcs1000 said:

    We could call them... Magistrates Courts!

    And you know what, let's offer defendents a choice: they can *choose* the Jury trial over the Magistrates Court, but the potential punishments would be more severe if they chose the Jury trial and are convicted.

    What do you guys think?

    Seems sane, but does that eventually lead to US style plea bargaining where you can risk 200 years in prison and/or a crippling legal bill, or admit to things you didn't do?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 46,141
    algarkirk said:

    DavidL said:

    Juries are probably the worst way of determining guilt, apart from all the others of course. I generally find Juries take their role very seriously. Even if I disagree with their decisions I can usually see and understand how they got there. There is the odd exception, of course, but the same could be said about Sheriffs or Justices of the Peace. If I was ever facing a serious charge I would want a jury.

    I am tentative about this, but I suspect I think that if I faced a serious charge and was guilty and wanted maximum chance of getting off I would want a jury. If I was innocent I would prefer a judge.
    That would be my calculus.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,685

    rcs1000 said:

    We could call them... Magistrates Courts!

    And you know what, let's offer defendents a choice: they can *choose* the Jury trial over the Magistrates Court, but the potential punishments would be more severe if they chose the Jury trial and are convicted.

    What do you guys think?

    Seems sane, but does that eventually lead to US style plea bargaining where you can risk 200 years in prison and/or a crippling legal bill, or admit to things you didn't do.
    (I have described the current system.)
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,982
    Nigelb said:

    An excellent idea.

    Petition to make Matt Berry the next James Bond.
    https://x.com/NoContextBrits/status/1943294137815421174

    Not Jake Berry???
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,169

    rcs1000 said:

    We could call them... Magistrates Courts!

    And you know what, let's offer defendents a choice: they can *choose* the Jury trial over the Magistrates Court, but the potential punishments would be more severe if they chose the Jury trial and are convicted.

    What do you guys think?

    Seems sane, but does that eventually lead to US style plea bargaining where you can risk 200 years in prison and/or a crippling legal bill, or admit to things you didn't do?
    It's just below the Event Horizon in this country.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 5,118
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    We could call them... Magistrates Courts!

    And you know what, let's offer defendents a choice: they can *choose* the Jury trial over the Magistrates Court, but the potential punishments would be more severe if they chose the Jury trial and are convicted.

    What do you guys think?

    Seems sane, but does that eventually lead to US style plea bargaining where you can risk 200 years in prison and/or a crippling legal bill, or admit to things you didn't do.
    (I have described the current system.)
    Ok, fair enough. I thought the idea was to extend it to more serious crimes than the magistrate currently sees.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,715
    ydoethur said:

    First?

    The jury will now find you guilty of insider dealing.

    Oh, apparently we're abandoning them.

    Not somebody I hold in high esteem, but Jacob Rees-Mogg was bang on the money when he said that juries are needed because they allow for a protection against an over mighty state.* Heck, that's how they first became enshrined in law with barons forcing King John to stop kidnapping them, stealing their lands and raping their daughters on a whim by instead having to have fair trials.

    *It's worth remembering he said that in response to the release of the Colston vandals whose defence was essentially 'we're smug rich bastards and have the right to smash up anything we like.' He didn't agree with their view, ironically, or the verdict, but he thought it illustrated the importance of the jury system in showing what should or shouldn't be crimes.
    The jury will be dazzled by the brilliant subtle headline.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,685
    HYUFD said:

    Sounds sensible, Magistrates court cases verdicts are already decided by magistrates with no jury where no guilty plea

    Indeed: this is basically just adding a small additional tier, where instead of there being three magistrates, there is a judge and two (stipendary) magistrates. And it would presumably get to take the "next" 15% of cases.

    As currently exists, I would allow defendents to choose to opt out of it; but the flip side to opting out of it, and going to the jury trial is that the maximum sentence expands significantly.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,685

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    We could call them... Magistrates Courts!

    And you know what, let's offer defendents a choice: they can *choose* the Jury trial over the Magistrates Court, but the potential punishments would be more severe if they chose the Jury trial and are convicted.

    What do you guys think?

    Seems sane, but does that eventually lead to US style plea bargaining where you can risk 200 years in prison and/or a crippling legal bill, or admit to things you didn't do.
    (I have described the current system.)
    Ok, fair enough. I thought the idea was to extend it to more serious crimes than the magistrate currently sees.
    My point is that defendents in more serious magistrates cases can choose a jury trial.. but doing so opens up a much wider range of punishments.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,175
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    We could call them... Magistrates Courts!

    And you know what, let's offer defendents a choice: they can *choose* the Jury trial over the Magistrates Court, but the potential punishments would be more severe if they chose the Jury trial and are convicted.

    What do you guys think?

    Except they would consist only of stipendiary magistrates, whose numbers would require considerable expansion.
    I think increasing the number of stipendary magistrates is a good idea. Actually, I think expanding the pool of magistrates generally is a good idea.
    The proposed system, though, is surely lay magistrates (in place of the jury), plus judge.
    Otherwise, what's the point of including the judge at all ?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,982
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    We could call them... Magistrates Courts!

    And you know what, let's offer defendents a choice: they can *choose* the Jury trial over the Magistrates Court, but the potential punishments would be more severe if they chose the Jury trial and are convicted.

    What do you guys think?

    Except they would consist only of stipendiary magistrates, whose numbers would require considerable expansion.
    I think increasing the number of stipendary magistrates is a good idea. Actually, I think expanding the pool of magistrates generally is a good idea.
    Can't we do what Eurovision do and split the decision between the Jury and the popular vote?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,580
    ydoethur said:

    algarkirk said:

    ydoethur said:

    First?

    The jury will now find you guilty of insider dealing.

    Oh, apparently we're abandoning them.

    Not somebody I hold in high esteem, but Jacob Rees-Mogg was bang on the money when he said that juries are needed because they allow for a protection against an over mighty state.* Heck, that's how they first became enshrined in law with barons forcing King John to stop kidnapping them, stealing their lands and raping their daughters on a whim by instead having to have fair trials.

    *It's worth remembering he said that in response to the release of the Colston vandals whose defence was essentially 'we're smug rich bastards and have the right to smash up anything we like.' He didn't agree with their view, ironically, or the verdict, but he thought it illustrated the importance of the jury system in showing what should or shouldn't be crimes.
    I am beginning to disagree, having been pro jury trials for ever. Some factors weight with me. One is the weight of expert and technical evidence which abound in many modern cases.

    Second is the problem of the long trials lasting weeks and months. Three is the need, which from a judge one would get, of a reasoned and appealable judgment as to why a verdict was reached - which with a jury no-one dares ask, even if it were legal to do so. Lucy Letby is a classic case of the sort where all these factors apply.

    Fourth, the bar has tended in recent decades towards length and spinning things out. You can't do that with a judge. Fifth, a judge can ask the questions the jury would want to ask but can't. Sixth, many cases make no sense to the average intellect.

    Finally, pragmatic. Unless we do this the backlog will never end.

    There is of course a strong case against this view.
    You have a fair point on the length and complexity of trials, and hasn't that already been altered in certain fraud cases? I'm not sure though how a judge, who after all will have no incentive to keep things short, might make things more concise than a jury trial?

    On point five, juries can ask questions, albeit it must be through the judge.
    Make the payments for lawyers fixed by case. Judge as well. Same money for a case that lasts 6 minutes as 6 years.

    The backlog of cases will be cleared by lunch tomorrow.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,719

    Nigelb said:

    An excellent idea.

    Petition to make Matt Berry the next James Bond.
    https://x.com/NoContextBrits/status/1943294137815421174

    Not Jake Berry???
    He'd defect to the Russians!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,982
    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    We could call them... Magistrates Courts!

    And you know what, let's offer defendents a choice: they can *choose* the Jury trial over the Magistrates Court, but the potential punishments would be more severe if they chose the Jury trial and are convicted.

    What do you guys think?

    Seems sane, but does that eventually lead to US style plea bargaining where you can risk 200 years in prison and/or a crippling legal bill, or admit to things you didn't do?
    It's just below the Event Horizon in this country.
    "I wasn't going to tell you this. I've been listening to the distress signal, and I, um, think I made a mistake in the translation....

    I thought it said "liberate me" - "save me." But it's not "me." It's "liberate tutemet" - "save yourself." And it gets worse...

    There - I think that says "ex inferis." "Save yourself... from Hell." Look, if what Doctor Weir tells us is true, this ship has been beyond the boundaries of our universe, of known scientific reality. Who knows where it's been, what it's seen... or what it's brought back with it?"
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,617
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sounds sensible, Magistrates court cases verdicts are already decided by magistrates with no jury where no guilty plea

    Indeed: this is basically just adding a small additional tier, where instead of there being three magistrates, there is a judge and two (stipendary) magistrates. And it would presumably get to take the "next" 15% of cases.

    As currently exists, I would allow defendents to choose to opt out of it; but the flip side to opting out of it, and going to the jury trial is that the maximum sentence expands significantly.
    If you're guilty, but not remanded, and you're offered one of these new trials in 2 months or a jury trial in 2 years, you might opt for the latter...
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,869
    WFA - U turn after implementation
    PIP - U turn after announcement
    ISA - U turn before announcement
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,467
    edited July 11
    Ministers this week said they were trialling new state-funded restaurants that would serve meals for as little as £3 in Nottingham and Dundee. The diners, which have received £1.5m of taxpayer funding, will resemble the subsidised civic kitchens of the 1940s.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/07/11/labour-sparks-backlash-over-plan-for-state-run-restaurants/

    So they put up minimum wage, NI, business rates, which are all huge factors if you run a cafe or restaurant, then are going to start opening state subsidised ones. I hope at least the ice cream is great like in Cuba.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 25,202

    Crystal Palace banned from Europa League and relegated to Conference League

    Crystal Palace have been banned from the Europa League and moved into the Conference League after Uefa concluded the FA Cup winners were in breach of its multi-club ownership rules.

    The ban had been expected after Lyon won their appeal against relegation to Ligue 2, clearing them to take their place in the tournament.

    Clubs with the same owner are barred from competing in the same Uefa competition if an individual or ownership group is considered to have a decisive influence over more than one of those teams.

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2025/jul/11/crystal-palace-banned-from-europa-league-and-relegated-to-conference-league?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Does that mean that the next-placed English club steps up instead?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,175

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    We could call them... Magistrates Courts!

    And you know what, let's offer defendents a choice: they can *choose* the Jury trial over the Magistrates Court, but the potential punishments would be more severe if they chose the Jury trial and are convicted.

    What do you guys think?

    Seems sane, but does that eventually lead to US style plea bargaining where you can risk 200 years in prison and/or a crippling legal bill, or admit to things you didn't do?
    It's just below the Event Horizon in this country.
    "I wasn't going to tell you this. I've been listening to the distress signal, and I, um, think I made a mistake in the translation....

    I thought it said "liberate me" - "save me." But it's not "me." It's "liberate tutemet" - "save yourself." And it gets worse...

    There - I think that says "ex inferis." "Save yourself... from Hell." Look, if what Doctor Weir tells us is true, this ship has been beyond the boundaries of our universe, of known scientific reality. Who knows where it's been, what it's seen... or what it's brought back with it?"
    In the real world...
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx23g5jpj9go
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,715

    Crystal Palace banned from Europa League and relegated to Conference League

    Crystal Palace have been banned from the Europa League and moved into the Conference League after Uefa concluded the FA Cup winners were in breach of its multi-club ownership rules.

    The ban had been expected after Lyon won their appeal against relegation to Ligue 2, clearing them to take their place in the tournament.

    Clubs with the same owner are barred from competing in the same Uefa competition if an individual or ownership group is considered to have a decisive influence over more than one of those teams.

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2025/jul/11/crystal-palace-banned-from-europa-league-and-relegated-to-conference-league?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Does that mean that the next-placed English club steps up instead?
    The expectation is that Forest will take Palace’s Europa League place whilst Palace will take Forest’s Conference League place.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,169
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    We could call them... Magistrates Courts!

    And you know what, let's offer defendents a choice: they can *choose* the Jury trial over the Magistrates Court, but the potential punishments would be more severe if they chose the Jury trial and are convicted.

    What do you guys think?

    Seems sane, but does that eventually lead to US style plea bargaining where you can risk 200 years in prison and/or a crippling legal bill, or admit to things you didn't do?
    It's just below the Event Horizon in this country.
    "I wasn't going to tell you this. I've been listening to the distress signal, and I, um, think I made a mistake in the translation....

    I thought it said "liberate me" - "save me." But it's not "me." It's "liberate tutemet" - "save yourself." And it gets worse...

    There - I think that says "ex inferis." "Save yourself... from Hell." Look, if what Doctor Weir tells us is true, this ship has been beyond the boundaries of our universe, of known scientific reality. Who knows where it's been, what it's seen... or what it's brought back with it?"
    In the real world...
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx23g5jpj9go
    And it's the Witchfinder General to the fore!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,685

    ydoethur said:

    algarkirk said:

    ydoethur said:

    First?

    The jury will now find you guilty of insider dealing.

    Oh, apparently we're abandoning them.

    Not somebody I hold in high esteem, but Jacob Rees-Mogg was bang on the money when he said that juries are needed because they allow for a protection against an over mighty state.* Heck, that's how they first became enshrined in law with barons forcing King John to stop kidnapping them, stealing their lands and raping their daughters on a whim by instead having to have fair trials.

    *It's worth remembering he said that in response to the release of the Colston vandals whose defence was essentially 'we're smug rich bastards and have the right to smash up anything we like.' He didn't agree with their view, ironically, or the verdict, but he thought it illustrated the importance of the jury system in showing what should or shouldn't be crimes.
    I am beginning to disagree, having been pro jury trials for ever. Some factors weight with me. One is the weight of expert and technical evidence which abound in many modern cases.

    Second is the problem of the long trials lasting weeks and months. Three is the need, which from a judge one would get, of a reasoned and appealable judgment as to why a verdict was reached - which with a jury no-one dares ask, even if it were legal to do so. Lucy Letby is a classic case of the sort where all these factors apply.

    Fourth, the bar has tended in recent decades towards length and spinning things out. You can't do that with a judge. Fifth, a judge can ask the questions the jury would want to ask but can't. Sixth, many cases make no sense to the average intellect.

    Finally, pragmatic. Unless we do this the backlog will never end.

    There is of course a strong case against this view.
    You have a fair point on the length and complexity of trials, and hasn't that already been altered in certain fraud cases? I'm not sure though how a judge, who after all will have no incentive to keep things short, might make things more concise than a jury trial?

    On point five, juries can ask questions, albeit it must be through the judge.
    Make the payments for lawyers fixed by case. Judge as well. Same money for a case that lasts 6 minutes as 6 years.

    The backlog of cases will be cleared by lunch tomorrow.
    Errr:

    Isn't that exactly how most legal aid works?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,869

    WFA - U turn after implementation
    PIP - U turn after announcement
    ISA - U turn before announcement

    So Jeremy Hunt introduces British ISAs to encourage people to invest in British businesses.

    Rachel Reeves cancelled British ISAs and planned to reduce the Cash ISA limit to encourage people to invest instead in stocks and shares.

    Rachel Reeves then U turns on Cash ISAs.

    The result being that people are less likely to invest in stocks and shares generally and British business specifically than they were a year ago.

    Perhaps Reeves should have left ISAs alone ?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,922
    ydoethur said:

    algarkirk said:

    ydoethur said:

    First?

    The jury will now find you guilty of insider dealing.

    Oh, apparently we're abandoning them.

    Not somebody I hold in high esteem, but Jacob Rees-Mogg was bang on the money when he said that juries are needed because they allow for a protection against an over mighty state.* Heck, that's how they first became enshrined in law with barons forcing King John to stop kidnapping them, stealing their lands and raping their daughters on a whim by instead having to have fair trials.

    *It's worth remembering he said that in response to the release of the Colston vandals whose defence was essentially 'we're smug rich bastards and have the right to smash up anything we like.' He didn't agree with their view, ironically, or the verdict, but he thought it illustrated the importance of the jury system in showing what should or shouldn't be crimes.
    I am beginning to disagree, having been pro jury trials for ever. Some factors weight with me. One is the weight of expert and technical evidence which abound in many modern cases.

    Second is the problem of the long trials lasting weeks and months. Three is the need, which from a judge one would get, of a reasoned and appealable judgment as to why a verdict was reached - which with a jury no-one dares ask, even if it were legal to do so. Lucy Letby is a classic case of the sort where all these factors apply.

    Fourth, the bar has tended in recent decades towards length and spinning things out. You can't do that with a judge. Fifth, a judge can ask the questions the jury would want to ask but can't. Sixth, many cases make no sense to the average intellect.

    Finally, pragmatic. Unless we do this the backlog will never end.

    There is of course a strong case against this view.
    You have a fair point on the length and complexity of trials, and hasn't that already been altered in certain fraud cases? I'm not sure though how a judge, who after all will have no incentive to keep things short, might make things more concise than a jury trial?

    On point five, juries can ask questions, albeit it must be through the judge.
    Modern judges are very concise. They are very expert at getting to the facts in issue and sticking to the point. And while juries can indirectly ask, they can't always get an answer. Judges as judge and juror can ask the questions neither prosecution nor defence dare to raise, (and know unlike juries that a lot of questions can't be asked for legal reasons), and do so as part of the to and fro.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,266
    Isn't it correct that Tommy Robinson has gone to jail each time without being found guilty by a jury? (Not defending him, just wondering whether this is a fact or not).
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,812
    algarkirk said:

    DavidL said:

    Juries are probably the worst way of determining guilt, apart from all the others of course. I generally find Juries take their role very seriously. Even if I disagree with their decisions I can usually see and understand how they got there. There is the odd exception, of course, but the same could be said about Sheriffs or Justices of the Peace. If I was ever facing a serious charge I would want a jury.

    I am tentative about this, but I suspect I think that if I faced a serious charge and was guilty and wanted maximum chance of getting off I would want a jury. If I was innocent I would prefer a judge.
    Hmm... I have thought about this but I think that the honest answer would be which judge and, I suppose, what Jury. Some modern judges are more than a bit tick box. They are very reluctant to consider that a complainer might just be lying but on the other hand they are very open to the idea that there might not be a sufficiency of evidence to convict. Others are, shall we say, a bit more open minded.

    Juries in Edinburgh and Aberdeen, in my experience, are quite prone to convicting. Juries in Glasgow, Livingston and Dundee less so.

    The charge I am most likely to face would be death by dangerous driving. I do a lot of driving, often under pressure to get to my destination and when my brain is full of other things (as well as feathers, of course). Juries in those type of cases tend to be just a bit more sympathetic (having been there or nearly there in many cases) than Judges applying the legal tests. So I would still prefer a jury for that, whether I was guilty or innocent.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,685
    edited July 11
    Andy_JS said:

    Isn't it correct that Tommy Robinson has gone to jail each time without being found guilty by a jury? (Not defending him, just wondering whether this is a fact or not).

    IIRC, he's been sent to prison for Contempt of Court, which is usually due to ignoring (repeatedly) a direct instruction from a Judge.

    So: let's say there's a trial on, and someone started live streaming it. The Judge would say "don't do that". Then he'd say "don't do that, or I'll hold you in contempt of court". Then he'd say "this is your final warning, stop filming or I'll hold you in contempt."

    And then you'd be off to prison, while not having been convicted of a crime by a jury.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 1,256

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    We could call them... Magistrates Courts!

    And you know what, let's offer defendents a choice: they can *choose* the Jury trial over the Magistrates Court, but the potential punishments would be more severe if they chose the Jury trial and are convicted.

    What do you guys think?

    Seems sane, but does that eventually lead to US style plea bargaining where you can risk 200 years in prison and/or a crippling legal bill, or admit to things you didn't do.
    (I have described the current system.)
    Ok, fair enough. I thought the idea was to extend it to more serious crimes than the magistrate currently sees.
    I don't think they'd risk letting lay magistrates commit miscarriages of justice longer than 6 months, but they could increase the sentencing powers for District Judges (professional magistrates).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,169
    Dopermean said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    We could call them... Magistrates Courts!

    And you know what, let's offer defendents a choice: they can *choose* the Jury trial over the Magistrates Court, but the potential punishments would be more severe if they chose the Jury trial and are convicted.

    What do you guys think?

    Seems sane, but does that eventually lead to US style plea bargaining where you can risk 200 years in prison and/or a crippling legal bill, or admit to things you didn't do.
    (I have described the current system.)
    Ok, fair enough. I thought the idea was to extend it to more serious crimes than the magistrate currently sees.
    I don't think they'd risk letting lay magistrates commit miscarriages of justice longer than 6 months, but they could increase the sentencing powers for District Judges (professional magistrates).
    Why? Do they need locking up for longer?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,276
    edited July 11
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Isn't it correct that Tommy Robinson has gone to jail each time without being found guilty by a jury? (Not defending him, just wondering whether this is a fact or not).

    IIRC, he's been sent to prison for Contempt of Court, which is usually due to ignoring (repeatedly) a direct instruction from a Judge.

    So: let's say there's a trial on, and someone started live streaming it. The Judge would say "don't do that". Then he'd say "don't do that, or I'll hold you in contempt of court". Then he'd say "this is your final warning, stop filming or I'll hold you in contempt."

    And then you'd be off to prison, while not having been convicted of a crime by a jury.
    He’s also pleaded guilty on at least a couple of occasions which rather dispenses with the need for a jury.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,192
    What problem are judge-only trials addressing?

    Is it eg a lack of jurors? Judge trials are quicker because you don't need to get lay people up to speed? Judge trials are less likely to collapse and so need to be run again? Or something else?


  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,175
    edited July 11
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sounds sensible, Magistrates court cases verdicts are already decided by magistrates with no jury where no guilty plea

    Indeed: this is basically just adding a small additional tier, where instead of there being three magistrates, there is a judge and two (stipendary) magistrates. And it would presumably get to take the "next" 15% of cases.

    As currently exists, I would allow defendents to choose to opt out of it; but the flip side to opting out of it, and going to the jury trial is that the maximum sentence expands significantly.
    Actually, reading the Leveson review, the choice of trial by judge without jury is not solely about speedier administration of justice.
    (See p88 onwards)
    https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/review-of-efficiency-in-criminal-proceedings-20151.pdf
    This is a widespread feature of other common law jurisdictions based on our system of trial by Judge and jury. It is widely used in the United States, and in various forms in Canada, New Zealand and Australia. The popularity of the approach appears to be because it is a simpler, speedier and cheaper procedure than trial by jury. It may also be an attractive option for defendants.
    Possible reasons include:

    Defendants with ‘technical’ defences who wish a verdict to be accompanied by appealable reasoning or who, in any event, want a fully reasoned decision;

    Some defendants, often in cases which are factually or legally extremely complex have a real anxiety that the tribunal will be able fully to understand their case;

    Defendants who are charged with offences that attract particular public opprobrium, such as sexual/sadistic violence, or from minorities or sects who may consider the Judge to be a more objective tribunal than a jury;

    Where there is publicity adverse to the defence; and

    Defendants in cases turning on alleged confessions or identification, where Judges tend to be more rigorous in the weight afforded to alleged confession and in their assessment of evidence of purported identification than juries tend to be...


    He goes on:
    It remains for further consideration whether it should apply to all indictable offences, as it has done in Canada since 1985, or exclude the most serious cases as in New Zealand..

    (edit)
    He's also clear that the Auld proposal, which he revives, is about Judge, plus (optionally) two specialist lay members.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,169
    Anyway, to go off-topic:

    Just filled in my response to the Gloucestershire unitary authority(/ies) proposal.

    It is noteworthy that they tried not to give us a box to describe which of the proposals we actually favoured.

    However, because they are almost as thick as Donald Trump, they did give a box where they said, 'is there anything else you would like us to consider?'

    So I noted that every single option they have put forward would be an unworkable disaster. I do hope whoever came up with the one about Greater Gloucester was doing weed, because I'd hate to think anyone could be that stupid while in their right mind.

    If there is to be a successful reorganisation (and I'm no fan of the county and district councils) it would have to be three unitaries, which means bringing current South Gloucestershire into the equation as well. Unfortunately
    nobody is willing to do that.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,175
    edited July 11
    FF43 said:

    What problem are judge-only trials addressing?

    Is it eg a lack of jurors? Judge trials are quicker because you don't need to get lay people up to speed? Judge trials are less likely to collapse and so need to be run again? Or something else?

    Read the report - link posted above.

    There's actually an awful lot more in it than this proposal (which is actually outside the official scope of his brief).
    A lot of nuts and bolts procedural stuff which would speed up the existing somewhat haphazard system.

    This just happens to be the most newsworthy.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,266
    Funny hearing the BBC's main Wimbledon presenter commentating on Test Match Special, (even though I knew she was doing both in advance).
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,580
    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    algarkirk said:

    ydoethur said:

    First?

    The jury will now find you guilty of insider dealing.

    Oh, apparently we're abandoning them.

    Not somebody I hold in high esteem, but Jacob Rees-Mogg was bang on the money when he said that juries are needed because they allow for a protection against an over mighty state.* Heck, that's how they first became enshrined in law with barons forcing King John to stop kidnapping them, stealing their lands and raping their daughters on a whim by instead having to have fair trials.

    *It's worth remembering he said that in response to the release of the Colston vandals whose defence was essentially 'we're smug rich bastards and have the right to smash up anything we like.' He didn't agree with their view, ironically, or the verdict, but he thought it illustrated the importance of the jury system in showing what should or shouldn't be crimes.
    I am beginning to disagree, having been pro jury trials for ever. Some factors weight with me. One is the weight of expert and technical evidence which abound in many modern cases.

    Second is the problem of the long trials lasting weeks and months. Three is the need, which from a judge one would get, of a reasoned and appealable judgment as to why a verdict was reached - which with a jury no-one dares ask, even if it were legal to do so. Lucy Letby is a classic case of the sort where all these factors apply.

    Fourth, the bar has tended in recent decades towards length and spinning things out. You can't do that with a judge. Fifth, a judge can ask the questions the jury would want to ask but can't. Sixth, many cases make no sense to the average intellect.

    Finally, pragmatic. Unless we do this the backlog will never end.

    There is of course a strong case against this view.
    You have a fair point on the length and complexity of trials, and hasn't that already been altered in certain fraud cases? I'm not sure though how a judge, who after all will have no incentive to keep things short, might make things more concise than a jury trial?

    On point five, juries can ask questions, albeit it must be through the judge.
    Make the payments for lawyers fixed by case. Judge as well. Same money for a case that lasts 6 minutes as 6 years.

    The backlog of cases will be cleared by lunch tomorrow.
    Errr:

    Isn't that exactly how most legal aid works?
    Judges don’t get paid per case. Plus less and less cases are legal aid funded.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,908
    ydoethur said:

    Anyway, to go off-topic:

    Just filled in my response to the Gloucestershire unitary authority(/ies) proposal.

    It is noteworthy that they tried not to give us a box to describe which of the proposals we actually favoured.

    However, because they are almost as thick as Donald Trump, they did give a box where they said, 'is there anything else you would like us to consider?'

    So I noted that every single option they have put forward would be an unworkable disaster. I do hope whoever came up with the one about Greater Gloucester was doing weed, because I'd hate to think anyone could be that stupid while in their right mind.

    If there is to be a successful reorganisation (and I'm no fan of the county and district councils) it would have to be three unitaries, which means bringing current South Gloucestershire into the equation as well. Unfortunately
    nobody is willing to do that.

    In Surrey, two of the 11 district councils, the county council and a lot of agencies (the police etc.) are lined up behind the plan to split Surrey into two. The other nine districts want three unitaries:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1jx19ln172o

    I prefer the option with three rather than two.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 36,266
    Gill c Smith b Woakes 16.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,173
    https://x.com/disclosetv/status/1943676227471974708

    NOW - Trump on last night's Russian Ukraine drone strikes: "You'll be seeing things happening."
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 6,473
    I thought it a bit odd that Archer ran straight to Bashir at leg gully to celebrate his wicket, rather than to Brook who caught it at second slip
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,627
    Evening all.
    Unite lining up to ditch Labour and back Corbyn and co, standards commissioner clears Rupert Lowe almost immediately after Reform try yet another nobble job on him and McMurdock confirms their nascent little alt right grouping by backing his deportation bill.
    The political realignment process continues
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,982
    edited July 11
    Dorkovic in a spot of bother against Sinner, two sets down, and a medical time-out.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,133
    FF43 said:

    What problem are judge-only trials addressing?

    Is it eg a lack of jurors? Judge trials are quicker because you don't need to get lay people up to speed? Judge trials are less likely to collapse and so need to be run again? Or something else?


    Employers don't want their staff pissing about in court for a fortnight instead of turning up at work.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,982
    Andy_JS said:

    Gill c Smith b Woakes 16.

    I think my Tebbit Chip is functioning correctly today.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,687
    edited July 11

    WFA - U turn after implementation
    PIP - U turn after announcement
    ISA - U turn before announcement

    Quite clear now that the government have lost the will to do anything even marginally controversial. Which is problematic; because we need fixes, most of which are not easy, and losing another 4 years to inaction is going to make the solutions even worse.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 4,039
    Nigelb said:

    An excellent idea.

    Petition to make Matt Berry the next James Bond.
    https://x.com/NoContextBrits/status/1943294137815421174

    Played like Sanchez from Garth Marenghi's Darkplace. I'd buy that for a dollar!
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,755
    ydoethur said:

    Anyway, to go off-topic:

    Just filled in my response to the Gloucestershire unitary authority(/ies) proposal.

    It is noteworthy that they tried not to give us a box to describe which of the proposals we actually favoured.

    However, because they are almost as thick as Donald Trump, they did give a box where they said, 'is there anything else you would like us to consider?'

    So I noted that every single option they have put forward would be an unworkable disaster. I do hope whoever came up with the one about Greater Gloucester was doing weed, because I'd hate to think anyone could be that stupid while in their right mind.

    If there is to be a successful reorganisation (and I'm no fan of the county and district councils) it would have to be three unitaries, which means bringing current South Gloucestershire into the equation as well. Unfortunately
    nobody is willing to do that.

    The 'anything else' box was designed for you to suggest that the forms would be better in a different colour. Or perfumed. Or perhaps that luncheon vouchers should be attached given the hardships involved in filling out the form. Actual proper 'anything else' falls outside the mandate of the dedicated 'anything else' team.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,964
    IanB2 said:

    FPT

    MattW said:

    IanB2 said:

    MattW said:

    Ye Gods. Alexa says it is going to be 32C.

    I need to be in Norway ...

    Currently 14C, cloudy and damp, tomorrow 16C cloudy but then sunny 19C and sunny 22C forecast for Monday! All at 68 1/4 degrees north.
    Back from my walk and after lunch. It is now 29C outside and 22C inside.

    We are not amused. We are however, quite well sauna'd.
    So, I have arrived in Lofoten, getting off the ferry just along the road from the village with the world’s shortest place name, Å.

    The dog was manic when I got back to the car, but he will live. The remaining ferries on this trip, he’ll be able to be with me, Finland and Germany being much more pet-friendly places than Norway.

    Weather-wise, the cloud base is now descending and as I eat dinner looking out over the fjord, it must be down to fifty feet. But sunny days lie ahead…allegedly.

    First impressions of Lofoten - it’s like Skye to the Scottish Highlands, on both upside and downside. Positively, the scenery is stunning, and compact, towering mountains, little settlements clinging to the slopes, including colourful house-huts on stilts built out into the sea, boats of all kinds everywhere. One can see why it’s a photographers’, and hikers’, paradise.

    On the downside, it’s on the Rick Steves trail and clearly over-touristed, there are signs for tourist stuff everywhere, the food shops are full of foreign backpackers, and the joy of the Norwegian open road is replaced by being in a procession of traffic wherever you want to go, and with severe parking pressure when you get there. For the next week Mr Dog and I will clearly struggle to avoid the crowds.


    If you get too warm, there’s an Ice Bar in Svolvaer. Don’t know if it’s dog friendly, though.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,964
    FF43 said:

    What problem are judge-only trials addressing?

    Is it eg a lack of jurors? Judge trials are quicker because you don't need to get lay people up to speed? Judge trials are less likely to collapse and so need to be run again? Or something else?


    I was wondering that too. I thought it was because of a shortage of judges, lawyers or court space. I don’t imagine there’s a shortage of jurors. Is it because juryless trials are quicker?
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,784
    edited July 11
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sounds sensible, Magistrates court cases verdicts are already decided by magistrates with no jury where no guilty plea

    Indeed: this is basically just adding a small additional tier, where instead of there being three magistrates, there is a judge and two (stipendary) magistrates. And it would presumably get to take the "next" 15% of cases.

    As currently exists, I would allow defendents to choose to opt out of it; but the flip side to opting out of it, and going to the jury trial is that the maximum sentence expands significantly.
    I think you've lived in America too long. IMO Jury trials should stay a right, much rather the unwashed judge me than HYUFD in a wig.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 28,224
    Andy_JS said:

    Isn't it correct that Tommy Robinson has gone to jail each time without being found guilty by a jury? (Not defending him, just wondering whether this is a fact or not).

    He's had about 10 or 11 prison sentences, totalling 7-8 years, and served afaics a bit more than 3 years.

    Hs current trial (harrassing a journo) is his first jury trial. They have generally been summary offences, and before magistrates. He seems, once he has done his unbroken pony fighting the bridle thing, to plead guilty.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,697
    edited July 11

    ydoethur said:

    algarkirk said:

    ydoethur said:

    First?

    The jury will now find you guilty of insider dealing.

    Oh, apparently we're abandoning them.

    Not somebody I hold in high esteem, but Jacob Rees-Mogg was bang on the money when he said that juries are needed because they allow for a protection against an over mighty state.* Heck, that's how they first became enshrined in law with barons forcing King John to stop kidnapping them, stealing their lands and raping their daughters on a whim by instead having to have fair trials.

    *It's worth remembering he said that in response to the release of the Colston vandals whose defence was essentially 'we're smug rich bastards and have the right to smash up anything we like.' He didn't agree with their view, ironically, or the verdict, but he thought it illustrated the importance of the jury system in showing what should or shouldn't be crimes.
    I am beginning to disagree, having been pro jury trials for ever. Some factors weight with me. One is the weight of expert and technical evidence which abound in many modern cases.

    Second is the problem of the long trials lasting weeks and months. Three is the need, which from a judge one would get, of a reasoned and appealable judgment as to why a verdict was reached - which with a jury no-one dares ask, even if it were legal to do so. Lucy Letby is a classic case of the sort where all these factors apply.

    Fourth, the bar has tended in recent decades towards length and spinning things out. You can't do that with a judge. Fifth, a judge can ask the questions the jury would want to ask but can't. Sixth, many cases make no sense to the average intellect.

    Finally, pragmatic. Unless we do this the backlog will never end.

    There is of course a strong case against this view.
    You have a fair point on the length and complexity of trials, and hasn't that already been altered in certain fraud cases? I'm not sure though how a judge, who after all will have no incentive to keep things short, might make things more concise than a jury trial?

    On point five, juries can ask questions, albeit it must be through the judge.
    Make the payments for lawyers fixed by case. Judge as well. Same money for a case that lasts 6 minutes as 6 years.

    The backlog of cases will be cleared by lunch tomorrow.
    Yes, the truly weird thing about lawyers in my experience is how they demand say two months to file a motion or a reply or whatever, get annoyed when the judge knocks them down to six weeks but still manage to file on time, having spent 48 hours working on it before filing it at the very last minute.

    Of course they still bill the client for the six weeks.

    Then they wonder why everybody hates them.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,755
    Can't remember a more enthralling day's test cricket. Everyone so keen to crack on with the match
  • MattWMattW Posts: 28,224
    edited July 11
    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Isn't it correct that Tommy Robinson has gone to jail each time without being found guilty by a jury? (Not defending him, just wondering whether this is a fact or not).

    He's had about 10 or 11 prison sentences, totalling 7-8 years, and served afaics a bit more than 3 years.

    Hs current trial (harrassing a journo) is his first jury trial. They have generally been summary offences, and before magistrates. He seems, once he has done his unbroken pony fighting the bridle thing, to plead guilty.
    He has a couple more trials in the pipeline.

    Seriously, who are the lobotomised slugs who follow and defend this guy?

    Or are they all Russian bots, and chancers looking to exploit the reflected glare?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,580
    Fishing said:

    ydoethur said:

    algarkirk said:

    ydoethur said:

    First?

    The jury will now find you guilty of insider dealing.

    Oh, apparently we're abandoning them.

    Not somebody I hold in high esteem, but Jacob Rees-Mogg was bang on the money when he said that juries are needed because they allow for a protection against an over mighty state.* Heck, that's how they first became enshrined in law with barons forcing King John to stop kidnapping them, stealing their lands and raping their daughters on a whim by instead having to have fair trials.

    *It's worth remembering he said that in response to the release of the Colston vandals whose defence was essentially 'we're smug rich bastards and have the right to smash up anything we like.' He didn't agree with their view, ironically, or the verdict, but he thought it illustrated the importance of the jury system in showing what should or shouldn't be crimes.
    I am beginning to disagree, having been pro jury trials for ever. Some factors weight with me. One is the weight of expert and technical evidence which abound in many modern cases.

    Second is the problem of the long trials lasting weeks and months. Three is the need, which from a judge one would get, of a reasoned and appealable judgment as to why a verdict was reached - which with a jury no-one dares ask, even if it were legal to do so. Lucy Letby is a classic case of the sort where all these factors apply.

    Fourth, the bar has tended in recent decades towards length and spinning things out. You can't do that with a judge. Fifth, a judge can ask the questions the jury would want to ask but can't. Sixth, many cases make no sense to the average intellect.

    Finally, pragmatic. Unless we do this the backlog will never end.

    There is of course a strong case against this view.
    You have a fair point on the length and complexity of trials, and hasn't that already been altered in certain fraud cases? I'm not sure though how a judge, who after all will have no incentive to keep things short, might make things more concise than a jury trial?

    On point five, juries can ask questions, albeit it must be through the judge.
    Make the payments for lawyers fixed by case. Judge as well. Same money for a case that lasts 6 minutes as 6 years.

    The backlog of cases will be cleared by lunch tomorrow.
    Yes, the truly weird thing about lawyers in my experience is how they demand say two months to file a motion or a reply or whatever, get annoyed when the judge knocks them down to six weeks but still manage to file on time, having spent 48 hours working on it before filing it at the very last minute.

    Of course they still bill the client for the six weeks.

    Then they wonder why everybody hates them.
    I recall a case, in front of magistrates, where the idiot found an even more stupid lawyer.

    Rocked up at the court to demand a third delay. Magistrate pointed out that all the witnesses were there, simple case and he (the lawyer ) had had the file for months.

    The lawyer sneered at the magistrate for not just doing what he (the lawyer) said….
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,755
    Pulpstar said:

    Can't remember a more enthralling day's test cricket. Everyone so keen to crack on with the match

    This has been a brilliant series so far.

    I was at Lords yesterday, and was absolutely convinced in the morning that the Indian bowling would be too much for England. How wrong I was.

    Such a fantastic level of cricket.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,748
    Labour's biggest union musing cutting all ties with the party.

    After a landslide win and with four years to change the country.

    These people are nuts.

    What they gonna do - fund the Sultanas?

    No wonder Farage can't stop smirking.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 28,224
    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    What problem are judge-only trials addressing?

    Is it eg a lack of jurors? Judge trials are quicker because you don't need to get lay people up to speed? Judge trials are less likely to collapse and so need to be run again? Or something else?

    Read the report - link posted above.

    There's actually an awful lot more in it than this proposal (which is actually outside the official scope of his brief).
    A lot of nuts and bolts procedural stuff which would speed up the existing somewhat haphazard system.

    This just happens to be the most newsworthy.
    Heh. The UK's 7 second attention span media strikes again.
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