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Your regular reminder that the Tories & Reform are two discrete blocs not one homogenous bloc

SystemSystem Posts: 12,539
edited 6:48AM in General
Your regular reminder that the Tories & Reform are two discrete blocks not one homogenous block– politicalbetting.com

This is fascinating looking at who would Brits vote against. Reform lower than I might have thought. But what jumps out to me is a quarter of Tory voters would pick Reform as the party they would vote against, doesn’t suggest you can add them together like Lego bricks.

Read the full story here

«1345

Comments

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,660

    First like Labour in the next election

    Assumes facts not yet in evidence.

    And which may never be.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,461
    MPs take inspiration from anyone: Margaret Thatcher, Nelson Mandela and, it seems, Coleen Rooney. A group of LGBT MPs have followed the example of the footballer’s wife as they sought to eliminate colleagues from a WhatsApp group that leaked to The Mail on Sunday.

    The leak, which took place after the Supreme Court’s trans decision, caused embarrassment to ministers Angela Eagle and Chris Bryant, but the group’s admins haven’t taken it lying down.

    They have set up a new group, methodically leaving out suspects, and now believe the culprits have been excluded. This echoes Rooney’s method for finding the person who leaked stories about her to the tabloids but, unlike when she identified Rebekah Vardy, with no naming and shaming.

    This is a classier operation: less Wagatha Christie, more MPD James.


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/mps-learn-wagatha-lessons-from-coleen-rooney-c8jntgr80
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,340
    Reform is NOTA. Conservatives are part of TA.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,660
    I disagree with the header.
    You can compare Tories and Reform with bricks.

    It's just that one set is Duplo.

    And the other straw.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,660
    "The most interesting finding is that more people are prepared to vote against Labour than they are Reform."

    They're in government.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,461
    I hate autocorrect, and I hate hay fever.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,594
    I see some MAGArons want Trump to deport Mamdani under some old communism act.
  • flanner2flanner2 Posts: 28

    First like Labour in the next election

    At last. Someone with a grasp on the reality of modern politics
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,025
    edited 6:55AM
    The YG MRP from the butt end of the last thread seems a little nearer a likely result although I still think its a bit ott on LD for reasons stated to death before. Its London results are much closer to the Savanta polling than FoN, labour holding out a little better in central London and some marginals in Barnet and Brent areas and Reform making big progress in the East of the capital - massive win in Hornchurch.
    Norfolk (for my perspective) - yeah on current polling about right (although SW Norfolk is no way that hard in Reforms camp), i think it will end up a lot more 'patchwork' by the GE, the Tory vote in some rural parts is very fery sticky at 30 to 35%
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,646

    The YG MRP from the butt end of the last thread seems a little nearer a likely result although I still think its a bit ott on LD for reasons stated to death before. Its London results are much closer to the Savanta polling than FoN, labour holding out a little better in central London and some marginals in Barnet and Brent areas and Reform making big progress in the East of the capital - massive win in Hornchurch.
    Norfolk (for my perspective) - yeah on current polling about right (although SW Norfolk is no way that hard in Reforms camp), i think it will end up a lot more 'patchwork' by the GE, the Tory vote in some rural parts is very fery sticky at 30 to 35%

    The MRP map is starting to look like the premier tour of French elections. Maybe what we need is a 2 round election. (France is basically a cross between nationwide AV and the Tory leadership contest).
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,694
    It surprises me that more LibDems and Greens would vote against Labour than Conservative, even if only marginally more.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,662
    Good morning, everyone.

    A little late, but work has begun on Khan Noonien Singh.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c6256wpn97ro
  • ChrisChris Posts: 12,032
    edited 7:09AM
    Interesting, but not very useful information for gauging the likely extent of tactical voting

    In effect this tells us the percentages of each group that hate Party X more than they hate any of the other parties.

    What we should like to know is the percentages of each group that hate each of Parties X, Y and Z enough to vote against them tactically, which is quite different. And ideally we'd like it broken down further into the percentages that would vote tactically against Party X by supporting Party A, and so on.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,574
    Chris said:

    Interesting, but not very useful information for gauging the likely extent of tactical voting

    Everyone, understandably, hates the Fukkers except the Fukkers themselves.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,426
    flanner2 said:

    First like Labour in the next election

    At last. Someone with a grasp on the reality of modern politics
    Or perhaps the village idiot opines , we shall see.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,511
    I'm shocked by this header, SHOCKED. I have read repeatedly on this very forum that Tory and Reform are one and the same. OK so Reform may have the most seats but the Tory would hold the whip hand in their administration as Farage would need the 30 Reform MPs to have a majority.

    Stop laughing at the back.

    I've been watching the rise of RefUKIxitUK for years. The people most hated by the Fukkers are the Tories and vice versa. Watch the hatefest up here in the shire as Tory after Tory defects to Refuk - they are hated by the Tories far more than other parties.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,283

    Ukraine are now using drones armed with nets to take down Russian drones.

    The current period is like the Cambrian explosion. Every idea is being tried out in a riot of rapid evolution.

    https://www.gutenberg.org/files/32032/32032-h/32032-h.htm

    “… a last ironic thought drifted through Hendricks’ mind. He felt a little better, thinking about it. The bomb. Made by the Second Variety to destroy the other varieties. Made for that end alone.

    They were already beginning to design weapons to use against each other.”
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,127
    Dura_Ace said:

    Chris said:

    Interesting, but not very useful information for gauging the likely extent of tactical voting

    Everyone, understandably, hates the Fukkers except the Fukkers themselves.
    Dunno, the self-hating Fukker is probably a thing.

    ‘I’ve given in to all my basest instincts and I feel dirty. Still gunna do it though.’
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,660
    In completely unrelated news, Squid Game 3 drops on Friday.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,694

    Ukraine are now using drones armed with nets to take down Russian drones.

    The current period is like the Cambrian explosion. Every idea is being tried out in a riot of rapid evolution.

    Just shows how out-of-date we would be if ever it came to it.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,596
    Three words.

    Sovereign debt crisis.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,905
    edited 7:31AM
    "@YouGov

    YouGov's first MRP since the 2024 election shows a hung parliament with Reform UK as the largest party and the Tories pushed into fourth place

    Reform UK: 271 (+266 from 2024)
    Labour: 178 (-233)
    Lib Dems: 81 (+9)
    Conservatives: 46 (-75)
    SNP: 38 (+29)
    Greens: 7 (+3)
    Plaid: 7 (+3)
    Others: 3 (-2)

    Reform UK: 26% (+12 from 2024)
    Labour: 23% (-11)
    Conservatives: 18% (-6)
    Lib Dems: 15% (+3)
    Greens: 11% (+4)
    SNP: 3% (=)
    Plaid: 1% (=)"

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1938100799655059726

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/52437-first-yougov-mrp-since-2024-election-shows-a-hung-parliament-with-reform-uk-as-largest-party
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,300

    Three words.

    Sovereign debt crisis.

    Another six words could be, lower debt than many in Europe.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,992

    I'm shocked by this header, SHOCKED. I have read repeatedly on this very forum that Tory and Reform are one and the same. OK so Reform may have the most seats but the Tory would hold the whip hand in their administration as Farage would need the 30 Reform MPs to have a majority.

    Stop laughing at the back.

    I've been watching the rise of RefUKIxitUK for years. The people most hated by the Fukkers are the Tories and vice versa. Watch the hatefest up here in the shire as Tory after Tory defects to Refuk - they are hated by the Tories far more than other parties.

    It used to be the case that National Liberals and Monday Clubbers could coexist in a single party. That tent was big enough to win far more often than not.

    Now, the right is doing the same People's Front of Judea stuff that we used to laugh at lefties for doing. Sort that, and the right wins again, but it's not easy to see how that happens.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,646

    Ukraine are now using drones armed with nets to take down Russian drones.

    The current period is like the Cambrian explosion. Every idea is being tried out in a riot of rapid evolution.

    When you have a department of Defence like ours, which can't bring new equipment into service in much less than a decade and longer for anything complicated, this is a real problem. Whatever drones we buy are very likely to be antiquated before they are in the front line.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,072
    @ShippersUnbound

    💥 David Cameron thinks Robert Jenrick should be the next Tory leader
    💥 Tory strategists say the best they can do is to try to salvage 80 seats
    💥Kemi’s vision for Britain: “the same but less crap”
    💥Boris Johnson has a 5 point plan for his return

    https://x.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1938124492548760000
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,646
    edited 7:39AM

    Three words.

    Sovereign debt crisis.

    Another six words could be, lower debt than many in Europe.
    Or the USA (by miles), which is about to enact a bill to make it even bigger. Or Japan, which has more than everyone else put together.

    We also have way way lower private debt than the USA. It’s been falling inexorably since 2009.

    If the UK gets anywhere near a sovereign debt crisis then the rest of the developed world is really in the shit.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,025
    163 MPs on The reasoned amendment now from across the Commons.
    Let's see how Captain Hullbreach responds today
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,973
    edited 7:43AM

    Three words.

    Sovereign debt crisis.

    Another six words could be, lower debt than many in Europe.
    Add 4 words to yours: thank goodness for Brexit.

    Or another 4 words: and an independent currency.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,618

    I see some MAGArons want Trump to deport Mamdani under some old communism act.

    Nice to see the GOP's commitment to free speech and democracy is as strong as ever.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,380

    Three words.

    Sovereign debt crisis.

    Another six words could be, lower debt than many in Europe.
    Of G7 countries, our debt/GDP ranks the second best.

    Only Germany has lower. And that's by a long way.

    Our fiscal position is terrible, but we're not the ugliest person at the party here.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,772
    Yes, there was a problem with the way the question was asked, as some commentatators remarked.

    Perhaps it would have been better if they had just asked 'Which Party do you hate most?'
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,297
    "If you could vote *against* one party [...] who would you vote *for*" seems like terrible question wording...
  • agingjb2agingjb2 Posts: 127
    Among the many electoral systems proposed, voting specifically against candidates is rarely mentioned, and never actually used.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,973
    pm215 said:

    "If you could vote *against* one party [...] who would you vote *for*" seems like terrible question wording...

    That was my first thought too.

    'If you could vote against one party ... which party would it be' would be better.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,025
    edited 7:51AM
    Scott_xP said:

    @ShippersUnbound

    💥 David Cameron thinks Robert Jenrick should be the next Tory leader
    💥 Tory strategists say the best they can do is to try to salvage 80 seats
    💥Kemi’s vision for Britain: “the same but less crap”
    💥Boris Johnson has a 5 point plan for his return

    https://x.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1938124492548760000

    '80' is so defeatist. If that's your best shot say 100 and at least pretend to shoot for respectability
    Pinch of salt from these things though, they were on 165 seats and joint second just 15 off largest party in an MRP within the last 3 months.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,646
    edited 7:48AM
    I have tried to think of circumstances where I might vote Reform. Possibly to defeat the SNP? But that makes the choice between Charybdis and Scylla look a pleasant one.

    I don't think I could. See also a Tory party led by Jenrick.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,905
    edited 7:53AM

    163 MPs on The reasoned amendment now from across the Commons.
    Let's see how Captain Hullbreach responds today

    Devastating reporting from Nick Watt on the Today programme: Starmer is neither loved nor feared by the rebels. At 8:13.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live/bbc_radio_fourfm
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,461
    edited 7:49AM
    Scott_xP said:

    @ShippersUnbound

    💥 David Cameron thinks Robert Jenrick should be the next Tory leader
    💥 Tory strategists say the best they can do is to try to salvage 80 seats
    💥Kemi’s vision for Britain: “the same but less crap”
    💥Boris Johnson has a 5 point plan for his return

    https://x.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1938124492548760000

    I posted that on PB on the 10th of June.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,025
    Andy_JS said:

    163 MPs on The reasoned amendment now from across the Commons.
    Let's see how Captain Hullbreach responds today

    Devastating verdict from Nick Watt on the Today programme: Starmer is neither loved nor feared by the rebels. At 8:13.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live/bbc_radio_fourfm
    Who is scared of blancmange? And who respects it?
  • AugustusCarp2AugustusCarp2 Posts: 370

    Andy_JS said:

    163 MPs on The reasoned amendment now from across the Commons.
    Let's see how Captain Hullbreach responds today

    Devastating verdict from Nick Watt on the Today programme: Starmer is neither loved nor feared by the rebels. At 8:13.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live/bbc_radio_fourfm
    Who is scared of blancmange? And who respects it?
    I wasn't paying close attention, bit I thought that particular barb was aimed at Morgan McSweeney rather than Starmer? Still rather significant, regardless.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,812
    Andy_JS said:

    163 MPs on The reasoned amendment now from across the Commons.
    Let's see how Captain Hullbreach responds today

    Devastating verdict from Nick Watt on the Today programme: Starmer is neither loved nor feared by the rebels.
    Whether dealing with Labour MPs or foreign leaders Starmer gives way every time.

    We need an acronym.

    SAS - Starmer always surrenders
    SAGG - Starmer always gives ground
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,025

    Andy_JS said:

    163 MPs on The reasoned amendment now from across the Commons.
    Let's see how Captain Hullbreach responds today

    Devastating verdict from Nick Watt on the Today programme: Starmer is neither loved nor feared by the rebels. At 8:13.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live/bbc_radio_fourfm
    Who is scared of blancmange? And who respects it?
    I wasn't paying close attention, bit I thought that particular barb was aimed at Morgan McSweeney rather than Starmer? Still rather significant, regardless.
    There appears to be a rather fun game of blame going on in number 10. Gordon throwing phones levels of hysteria
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,905
    edited 7:58AM
    I thought at the time it was a mistake to drop the age at which people could stand for election from 21 to 18.

    "Council boss quits, leaving 18-year-old in charge

    Reform UK councillor Rob Howard released a short statement in which he said he had made the decision with "much regret".
    George Finch, 18, will lead Warwickshire County Council"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c93knke95peo
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,660
    pm215 said:

    "If you could vote *against* one party [...] who would you vote *for*" seems like terrible question wording...

    The voters' motivations appear fairly incoherent at the moment.
    Pollsters are just emulating them.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,812
    DavidL said:

    Ukraine are now using drones armed with nets to take down Russian drones.

    The current period is like the Cambrian explosion. Every idea is being tried out in a riot of rapid evolution.

    When you have a department of Defence like ours, which can't bring new equipment into service in much less than a decade and longer for anything complicated, this is a real problem. Whatever drones we buy are very likely to be antiquated before they are in the front line.
    Its not just the type of drones either but the number of them.

    Does the UK have the manufacturing capacity to produce millions of drones per year.

    If not ow long would it take to build that capacity.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,660

    Andy_JS said:

    163 MPs on The reasoned amendment now from across the Commons.
    Let's see how Captain Hullbreach responds today

    Devastating verdict from Nick Watt on the Today programme: Starmer is neither loved nor feared by the rebels. At 8:13.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live/bbc_radio_fourfm
    Who is scared of blancmange?
    You never experienced my old school dinners.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,999
    edited 8:02AM
    Good morning everyone.

    I think that one reason RefUK supporters are relatively more anti-Labour is the zeal of the convert, and I think that RefUK may have (as per Farage and Anderson for two) some success in getting their supporters to believe things that are made up, of which they use many. For Farage, it is all about marketing.

    Listening to a bit of GB News last night, they are still pounding away at the "Lucy Connolly was imprisoned for a single tweet" lie. They were also coming up with some strange stuff about the "oppressed Christian preacher at Kings Cross" story from this week (which is a non-story; they were using PA equipment without bothering with permission or finding out that they needed it).

    Another one that surprised me came from a story about reopening Rufford Ford on a Nottingham news site. That is a sometimes deep Ford in a village where performative ASB wankers have been driving through for several years at high speed and getting on Youtube.

    The first comment is "Thanks to Labour's Online Safety Bill, those who post such videos can and will be prosecuted.". The Online Safety Act received Royal Assent in October 2023 afaics. Perhaps an indicator that brazen public deception has much potential in 2025 as a strategy for low information voters; it's penetrated at least one head.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 12,025
    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    163 MPs on The reasoned amendment now from across the Commons.
    Let's see how Captain Hullbreach responds today

    Devastating verdict from Nick Watt on the Today programme: Starmer is neither loved nor feared by the rebels. At 8:13.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live/bbc_radio_fourfm
    Who is scared of blancmange?
    You never experienced my old school dinners.
    I have visions of you delivering the line 'my school was so rough the blancmange was armed' in a working mens club
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,905

    Yes, there was a problem with the way the question was asked, as some commentatators remarked.

    Perhaps it would have been better if they had just asked 'Which Party do you hate most?'

    For many on the left, I would guess the answer might be: "Whichever of Conservative or Reform is most likely to get into government".
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,300
    Interesting report that Nige is using a convicted fraudster to rinse millions from foreign donors. Foreign money is fine, it seems, if not foreigners themselves.

    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dark-money-investigations/george-cottrell-nigel-farage-reform-geostrategy-international-unlimited-company-donations/
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,566
    TimS said:

    Three words.

    Sovereign debt crisis.

    Another six words could be, lower debt than many in Europe.
    Or the USA (by miles), which is about to enact a bill to make it even bigger. Or Japan, which has more than everyone else put together.

    We also have way way lower private debt than the USA. It’s been falling inexorably since 2009.

    If the UK gets anywhere near a sovereign debt crisis then the rest of the developed world is really in the shit.
    Well quite, which is why I get impatient with those amongst us who constantly whinge that the the UK is doomed. We have serious and significant problems, but we also have significant resources and skills to address these problems. I hold little to no love for Starmer, but after the 14 year fuck up of the Tories I do see a few, tentative, improvements over the last year. The Tories deserve obliteration, but even now they may not get it. Reform are giving off some pretty weak vibes and their fate may end up being the same as all the other attempts to break the mould in my lifetime.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,660
    edited 8:03AM
    DavidL said:

    Ukraine are now using drones armed with nets to take down Russian drones.

    The current period is like the Cambrian explosion. Every idea is being tried out in a riot of rapid evolution.

    When you have a department of Defence like ours, which can't bring new equipment into service in much less than a decade and longer for anything complicated, this is a real problem. Whatever drones we buy are very likely to be antiquated before they are in the front line.
    We'll see.
    There have already been a handful of UK innovations in Ukraine.
    The defence review promises further efforts in that direction, so time will tell.

    But you're almost certainly correct that most of the procurement budget will continue to be spent in the old manner.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,812

    I'm shocked by this header, SHOCKED. I have read repeatedly on this very forum that Tory and Reform are one and the same. OK so Reform may have the most seats but the Tory would hold the whip hand in their administration as Farage would need the 30 Reform MPs to have a majority.

    Stop laughing at the back.

    I've been watching the rise of RefUKIxitUK for years. The people most hated by the Fukkers are the Tories and vice versa. Watch the hatefest up here in the shire as Tory after Tory defects to Refuk - they are hated by the Tories far more than other parties.

    It used to be the case that National Liberals and Monday Clubbers could coexist in a single party. That tent was big enough to win far more often than not.

    Now, the right is doing the same People's Front of Judea stuff that we used to laugh at lefties for doing. Sort that, and the right wins again, but it's not easy to see how that happens.
    The problem being that there are multiple varieties of right wing views, often in opposition to others.

    Balanced budgets versus low taxes
    Economic nationalism versus free trade
    Social conservatism versus libertarianism
    Home ownership versus nimbyism
    Aspiration for the young versus oldies uber alles
    Isolationism versus military support for friends and allies
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,694
    Andy_JS said:

    I thought at the time it was a mistake to drop the age at which people could stand for election from 21 to 18.

    "Council boss quits, leaving 18-year-old in charge

    Reform UK councillor Rob Howard released a short statement in which he said he had made the decision with "much regret".
    George Finch, 18, will lead Warwickshire County Council"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c93knke95peo

    Warmest best wishes to the young man. He can hardly do a lot worse than our experienced politicians seem to achieve.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,905
    "Steve Rosenberg
    21 June 2025

    At the St Petersburg International Economic Forum, a Russian MP came up to me.

    "Are you going to bomb Iran?" he asked.

    "I'm not planning to bomb anyone!" I replied.

    "I mean you, the British…"

    "Don't you mean Donald Trump?"

    "He's told what to do by Britain," the man smiled. "And by the deep state."

    It was a brief, bizarre conversation. But it showed that in St Petersburg this week there was more on people's minds than just the economy."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdr30jx6x0vo
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,660
    One for DuraAce.

    Trump just said the B-2 pilots called him the other day because they were “devastated by the press.”

    “Sir, sir…” they said...
    . 👀
    https://x.com/JoJoFromJerz/status/1937885080694685945
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,127
    DavidL said:

    I have tried to think of circumstances where I might vote Reform. Possibly to defeat the SNP? But that makes the choice between Charybdis and Scylla look a pleasant one.

    I don't think I could. See also a Tory party led by Jenrick.

    You've voted for that moral dustbin Johnson and the vast array of talent that is the Scottish Tories so you should be pretty battle hardened by now. Just close your eyes and think of England.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,999

    Interesting report that Nige is using a convicted fraudster to rinse millions from foreign donors. Foreign money is fine, it seems, if not foreigners themselves.

    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dark-money-investigations/george-cottrell-nigel-farage-reform-geostrategy-international-unlimited-company-donations/

    Quite young, the guy is 31 now and was caught by an FBI sting in 2014 when he was offering services via the dark web to launder drug money. It's OK to mention since he made a plea bargain:

    At the time of his arrest in August 2016, Cottrell had already been working for UKIP, though Farage told the BBC that this was in an unpaid volunteer position. Cottrell’s LinkedIn says he “served as a treasurer and head of fundraising of the United Kingdom Independence Party during the EU Referendum Campaign in 2016”.

    That's two downsides - Nigel either has someone working for him who was head of UKIP fundraising whilst involved in money laundering, or he has someone who has a falsified CV.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,694
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Ukraine are now using drones armed with nets to take down Russian drones.

    The current period is like the Cambrian explosion. Every idea is being tried out in a riot of rapid evolution.

    When you have a department of Defence like ours, which can't bring new equipment into service in much less than a decade and longer for anything complicated, this is a real problem. Whatever drones we buy are very likely to be antiquated before they are in the front line.
    We'll see.
    There have already been a handful of UK innovations in Ukraine.
    The defence review promises further efforts in that direction, so time will tell.

    But you're almost certainly correct that most of the procurement budget will continue to be spent in the old manner.
    What matters is our ability to become versatile enough to leapfrog to the leading edge when it becomes necessary. AIUI, various nations which missed out on early development were able to skip stages once they got going.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,727

    Andy_JS said:

    163 MPs on The reasoned amendment now from across the Commons.
    Let's see how Captain Hullbreach responds today

    Devastating verdict from Nick Watt on the Today programme: Starmer is neither loved nor feared by the rebels. At 8:13.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live/bbc_radio_fourfm
    Who is scared of blancmange? And who respects it?
    Depends if you're Living On The Ceiling?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,127
    boulay said:

    O/T today is a good example of the inherent physical differences between men and women when it comes to sport (no, not the Swiss women’s national football team being beaten by Lucerne’s under 15 boys 7-1).

    Faith Kipyegon will today attempt to become the first woman to run a mile under 4 minutes. To do this she will be aided by specialist kit including an aerodynamic skin suit, specialist energy returning lightweight spikes and specialist pace runners arranged to disrupt the airflow for her. She will attempt this on a modern track which returns energy after a lifetime of the best scientific conditioning of fitness and nutrition.

    71 years ago Roger Banister did it with none of the above assistance after starting the day at work as a medical student then catching the train up to Oxford mid morning and running at 6pm.

    And 40 Capstan full strength a day.
    Ok, maybe not that many but he liked a fag and a pint in the days before Woke ruined sport.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,999

    I hate autocorrect, and I hate hay fever.

    Not good enough; a comment like that needs a typo in it :wink: .

    Hay fever (unless you have been at a book festival and caught something from an author of Aga Sagas) seems worse to me this year. But it may be because I am walking more in the woodlands of Notts / Derbys.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,973
    TimS said:

    Three words.

    Sovereign debt crisis.

    Another six words could be, lower debt than many in Europe.
    Or the USA (by miles), which is about to enact a bill to make it even bigger. Or Japan, which has more than everyone else put together.

    We also have way way lower private debt than the USA. It’s been falling inexorably since 2009.

    If the UK gets anywhere near a sovereign debt crisis then the rest of the developed world is really in the shit.
    Debt to GDP is only one part of the story and in many respects the less important part.

    The more important part is the deficit.

    Counterintuitive but its like blood loss. You can be big or small, heavy or skinny, and some of those will have serious consequences but regardless of your overall health if you lose too much blood rapidly it is fatal.

    Deficits are the same. It is how much we are bleeding out.

    On that metric the UK is second worst in the G7, behind only America which is in an absolutely awful position. Japan is actually running a surplus.

    France is possibly the one which should set the most alarm bells ringing though being nearly as bad as us, and in the Euro so they lack their own independent sovereign currency.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,900

    Good morning, everyone.

    A little late, but work has begun on Khan Noonien Singh.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c6256wpn97ro

    It's a bit late given he was meant to have been born in 1959! https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Khan_Noonien_Singh
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,900

    Ukraine are now using drones armed with nets to take down Russian drones.

    The current period is like the Cambrian explosion. Every idea is being tried out in a riot of rapid evolution.

    Even if we didn't want to support Ukraine's fight, a sensible way of spending our military budget would be to give cash to the Ukrainians to try stuff out and then noting down the answers.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,900

    Three words.

    Sovereign debt crisis.

    Three letters.

    L O L
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,973

    Ukraine are now using drones armed with nets to take down Russian drones.

    The current period is like the Cambrian explosion. Every idea is being tried out in a riot of rapid evolution.

    Even if we didn't want to support Ukraine's fight, a sensible way of spending our military budget would be to give cash to the Ukrainians to try stuff out and then noting down the answers.
    An even better way of spending our budget is asking the Ukrainians what they would want and investing in building it for them, and making a note for what works to build some for ourselves later on.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,999

    Ukraine are now using drones armed with nets to take down Russian drones.

    The current period is like the Cambrian explosion. Every idea is being tried out in a riot of rapid evolution.

    https://www.gutenberg.org/files/32032/32032-h/32032-h.htm

    “… a last ironic thought drifted through Hendricks’ mind. He felt a little better, thinking about it. The bomb. Made by the Second Variety to destroy the other varieties. Made for that end alone.

    They were already beginning to design weapons to use against each other.”
    Are you sure that is not just about an interracial war at the Heinz company?

    Heinz Cleanz Genez.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,905

    Andy_JS said:

    163 MPs on The reasoned amendment now from across the Commons.
    Let's see how Captain Hullbreach responds today

    Devastating verdict from Nick Watt on the Today programme: Starmer is neither loved nor feared by the rebels. At 8:13.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live/bbc_radio_fourfm
    Who is scared of blancmange? And who respects it?
    Depends if you're Living On The Ceiling?
    That's just Blind Vision.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,127

    Good morning, everyone.

    A little late, but work has begun on Khan Noonien Singh.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c6256wpn97ro

    It's a bit late given he was meant to have been born in 1959! https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Khan_Noonien_Singh
    Explains the typical boomer behaviour.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,465
    DavidL said:

    Ukraine are now using drones armed with nets to take down Russian drones.

    The current period is like the Cambrian explosion. Every idea is being tried out in a riot of rapid evolution.

    When you have a department of Defence like ours, which can't bring new equipment into service in much less than a decade and longer for anything complicated, this is a real problem. Whatever drones we buy are very likely to be antiquated before they are in the front line.
    Good thing the current government have agreed a deal to build Ukrainian-designed drones in Britain then. We get to outsource all the design, testing and approval to Ukraine.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,727
    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    163 MPs on The reasoned amendment now from across the Commons.
    Let's see how Captain Hullbreach responds today

    Devastating verdict from Nick Watt on the Today programme: Starmer is neither loved nor feared by the rebels. At 8:13.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live/bbc_radio_fourfm
    Who is scared of blancmange? And who respects it?
    Depends if you're Living On The Ceiling?
    That's just Blind Vision.
    Don't Tell Me...
  • CookieCookie Posts: 15,418

    DavidL said:

    I have tried to think of circumstances where I might vote Reform. Possibly to defeat the SNP? But that makes the choice between Charybdis and Scylla look a pleasant one.

    I don't think I could. See also a Tory party led by Jenrick.

    You've voted for that moral dustbin Johnson and the vast array of talent that is the Scottish Tories so you should be pretty battle hardened by now. Just close your eyes and think of England.
    I voted Con in 2019 because the dubious Johnson was preferable to the even dubiouser Corbyn. I'd probably vote for Reform if it kept an equivalent far left Labour out (Rayner?). Starmer, despite his ineptitude and his succession of deals which seem to prioritise everyone else over Britain, isn't yet in that league. I suppose at constituency level I'd vote Ref if it kept the Greens out, or, in the hypothetical event I happened to be living in Scotland, the SNP.

    Regrettably, our political system almost forces you to vote against the party you like least, rather than for the party you like most.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,660

    I'm shocked by this header, SHOCKED. I have read repeatedly on this very forum that Tory and Reform are one and the same. OK so Reform may have the most seats but the Tory would hold the whip hand in their administration as Farage would need the 30 Reform MPs to have a majority.

    Stop laughing at the back.

    I've been watching the rise of RefUKIxitUK for years. The people most hated by the Fukkers are the Tories and vice versa. Watch the hatefest up here in the shire as Tory after Tory defects to Refuk - they are hated by the Tories far more than other parties.

    It used to be the case that National Liberals and Monday Clubbers could coexist in a single party. That tent was big enough to win far more often than not.

    Now, the right is doing the same People's Front of Judea stuff that we used to laugh at lefties for doing. Sort that, and the right wins again, but it's not easy to see how that happens.
    The problem being that there are multiple varieties of right wing views, often in opposition to others.

    Balanced budgets versus low taxes
    Economic nationalism versus free trade
    Social conservatism versus libertarianism
    Home ownership versus nimbyism
    Aspiration for the young versus oldies uber alles
    Isolationism versus military support for friends and allies
    The Conservative Party used to recognise that it was a coalition.

    I don't think either Reform, or the ramshackle new model Tory party really have any such aspiration.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,690
    edited 8:26AM
    AnneJGP said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I thought at the time it was a mistake to drop the age at which people could stand for election from 21 to 18.

    "Council boss quits, leaving 18-year-old in charge

    Reform UK councillor Rob Howard released a short statement in which he said he had made the decision with "much regret".
    George Finch, 18, will lead Warwickshire County Council"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c93knke95peo

    Warmest best wishes to the young man. He can hardly do a lot worse than our experienced politicians seem to achieve.
    Our district councillor got elected at the age of 18 back in 2019. Was still doing A-levels ! He's up again in 2027 - an old hand now ;)
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,465

    DavidL said:

    Ukraine are now using drones armed with nets to take down Russian drones.

    The current period is like the Cambrian explosion. Every idea is being tried out in a riot of rapid evolution.

    When you have a department of Defence like ours, which can't bring new equipment into service in much less than a decade and longer for anything complicated, this is a real problem. Whatever drones we buy are very likely to be antiquated before they are in the front line.
    Its not just the type of drones either but the number of them.

    Does the UK have the manufacturing capacity to produce millions of drones per year.

    If not ow long would it take to build that capacity.
    We're at least about to find out the answer to those questions by spending money manufacturing drones for Ukraine. Wonder where all the parts will be coming from?
  • isamisam Posts: 42,047
    boulay said:

    O/T today is a good example of the inherent physical differences between men and women when it comes to sport (no, not the Swiss women’s national football team being beaten by Lucerne’s under 15 boys 7-1).

    Faith Kipyegon will today attempt to become the first woman to run a mile under 4 minutes. To do this she will be aided by specialist kit including an aerodynamic skin suit, specialist energy returning lightweight spikes and specialist pace runners arranged to disrupt the airflow for her. She will attempt this on a modern track which returns energy after a lifetime of the best scientific conditioning of fitness and nutrition.

    71 years ago Roger Banister did it with none of the above assistance after starting the day at work as a medical student then catching the train up to Oxford mid morning and running at 6pm.

    A friend of mine, sadly no longer with us, always used to imagine telling Bannister, as he was collapsing over the finishing line, that fifty years later people would be running sub 4 min miles every race and RB replying “Fuck off, no one will ever do it again”
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,465
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Ukraine are now using drones armed with nets to take down Russian drones.

    The current period is like the Cambrian explosion. Every idea is being tried out in a riot of rapid evolution.

    When you have a department of Defence like ours, which can't bring new equipment into service in much less than a decade and longer for anything complicated, this is a real problem. Whatever drones we buy are very likely to be antiquated before they are in the front line.
    We'll see.
    There have already been a handful of UK innovations in Ukraine.
    The defence review promises further efforts in that direction, so time will tell.

    But you're almost certainly correct that most of the procurement budget will continue to be spent in the old manner.
    Yes. There's been quite a bit of evidence of innovative British work in the crisis conditions of the War, which is reassuring.

    The challenge is making that attitude more common in peace time, and it does look like the people at the top want that to happen.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,127
    Cookie said:

    DavidL said:

    I have tried to think of circumstances where I might vote Reform. Possibly to defeat the SNP? But that makes the choice between Charybdis and Scylla look a pleasant one.

    I don't think I could. See also a Tory party led by Jenrick.

    You've voted for that moral dustbin Johnson and the vast array of talent that is the Scottish Tories so you should be pretty battle hardened by now. Just close your eyes and think of England.
    I voted Con in 2019 because the dubious Johnson was preferable to the even dubiouser Corbyn. I'd probably vote for Reform if it kept an equivalent far left Labour out (Rayner?). Starmer, despite his ineptitude and his succession of deals which seem to prioritise everyone else over Britain, isn't yet in that league. I suppose at constituency level I'd vote Ref if it kept the Greens out, or, in the hypothetical event I happened to be living in Scotland, the SNP.

    Regrettably, our political system almost forces you to vote against the party you like least, rather than for the party you like most.
    That indicates the eye of the beholder thing, ignoring that my Labour voting days are far behind me I'd vote against Rayner because she's cosplaying far left Labour (and she thinks wearing tartan Docs on Scotch visits is a smart pr move).
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,340

    boulay said:

    O/T today is a good example of the inherent physical differences between men and women when it comes to sport (no, not the Swiss women’s national football team being beaten by Lucerne’s under 15 boys 7-1).

    Faith Kipyegon will today attempt to become the first woman to run a mile under 4 minutes. To do this she will be aided by specialist kit including an aerodynamic skin suit, specialist energy returning lightweight spikes and specialist pace runners arranged to disrupt the airflow for her. She will attempt this on a modern track which returns energy after a lifetime of the best scientific conditioning of fitness and nutrition.

    71 years ago Roger Banister did it with none of the above assistance after starting the day at work as a medical student then catching the train up to Oxford mid morning and running at 6pm.

    And 40 Capstan full strength a day.
    Ok, maybe not that many but he liked a fag and a pint in the days before Woke ruined sport.
    I posted this last month. Smoking is good for you. Here is Tommy Hampson describing the day he won gold in the 800 metres at the Los Angeles Olympics: Had lunch of boiled fish, dry toast and a cup of tea. Then I had a cigarette and chatted over technical details with teammates. World record too.

    I gather that while our footballers like a drop of ale, several European players' vice is smoking.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,159
    isam said:

    boulay said:

    O/T today is a good example of the inherent physical differences between men and women when it comes to sport (no, not the Swiss women’s national football team being beaten by Lucerne’s under 15 boys 7-1).

    Faith Kipyegon will today attempt to become the first woman to run a mile under 4 minutes. To do this she will be aided by specialist kit including an aerodynamic skin suit, specialist energy returning lightweight spikes and specialist pace runners arranged to disrupt the airflow for her. She will attempt this on a modern track which returns energy after a lifetime of the best scientific conditioning of fitness and nutrition.

    71 years ago Roger Banister did it with none of the above assistance after starting the day at work as a medical student then catching the train up to Oxford mid morning and running at 6pm.

    A friend of mine, sadly no longer with us, always used to imagine telling Bannister, as he was collapsing over the finishing line, that fifty years later people would be running sub 4 min miles every race and RB replying “Fuck off, no one will ever do it again”
    Someone did it 46 days later so he'd have been a bit wrong.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,340

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Ukraine are now using drones armed with nets to take down Russian drones.

    The current period is like the Cambrian explosion. Every idea is being tried out in a riot of rapid evolution.

    When you have a department of Defence like ours, which can't bring new equipment into service in much less than a decade and longer for anything complicated, this is a real problem. Whatever drones we buy are very likely to be antiquated before they are in the front line.
    We'll see.
    There have already been a handful of UK innovations in Ukraine.
    The defence review promises further efforts in that direction, so time will tell.

    But you're almost certainly correct that most of the procurement budget will continue to be spent in the old manner.
    Yes. There's been quite a bit of evidence of innovative British work in the crisis conditions of the War, which is reassuring.

    The challenge is making that attitude more common in peace time, and it does look like the people at the top want that to happen.
    Are the people at the top doing anything about it, or do they "want that to happen" in the same way I'd quite like West Ham to win the Champions League?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,765
    Morning all :)

    I've made sure I've laid in enough salt for the YouGov MRP this morning though they did the LD seat number right last year. Perhaps they have it right now...

    East Ham would end up 42% Labour, 15% Green, 14% Reform, 10% Conservative and 10% Other. I'm a long way from convinced by that given current trends.

    MRPs missed the locally based Independents last time and could well do so again as that vote is concentrated in perhaps 30 seats.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,283

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    163 MPs on The reasoned amendment now from across the Commons.
    Let's see how Captain Hullbreach responds today

    Devastating verdict from Nick Watt on the Today programme: Starmer is neither loved nor feared by the rebels. At 8:13.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live/bbc_radio_fourfm
    Who is scared of blancmange?
    You never experienced my old school dinners.
    I have visions of you delivering the line 'my school was so rough the blancmange was armed' in a working mens club
    Hmmm


  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,765

    boulay said:

    O/T today is a good example of the inherent physical differences between men and women when it comes to sport (no, not the Swiss women’s national football team being beaten by Lucerne’s under 15 boys 7-1).

    Faith Kipyegon will today attempt to become the first woman to run a mile under 4 minutes. To do this she will be aided by specialist kit including an aerodynamic skin suit, specialist energy returning lightweight spikes and specialist pace runners arranged to disrupt the airflow for her. She will attempt this on a modern track which returns energy after a lifetime of the best scientific conditioning of fitness and nutrition.

    71 years ago Roger Banister did it with none of the above assistance after starting the day at work as a medical student then catching the train up to Oxford mid morning and running at 6pm.

    And 40 Capstan full strength a day.
    Ok, maybe not that many but he liked a fag and a pint in the days before Woke ruined sport.
    I posted this last month. Smoking is good for you. Here is Tommy Hampson describing the day he won gold in the 800 metres at the Los Angeles Olympics: Had lunch of boiled fish, dry toast and a cup of tea. Then I had a cigarette and chatted over technical details with teammates. World record too.

    I gather that while our footballers like a drop of ale, several European players' vice is smoking.
    I believe Lester Piggott, whatever his own sins, had a diet of coffee, cigars and the Sporting Life.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,812
    Nigelb said:

    I'm shocked by this header, SHOCKED. I have read repeatedly on this very forum that Tory and Reform are one and the same. OK so Reform may have the most seats but the Tory would hold the whip hand in their administration as Farage would need the 30 Reform MPs to have a majority.

    Stop laughing at the back.

    I've been watching the rise of RefUKIxitUK for years. The people most hated by the Fukkers are the Tories and vice versa. Watch the hatefest up here in the shire as Tory after Tory defects to Refuk - they are hated by the Tories far more than other parties.

    It used to be the case that National Liberals and Monday Clubbers could coexist in a single party. That tent was big enough to win far more often than not.

    Now, the right is doing the same People's Front of Judea stuff that we used to laugh at lefties for doing. Sort that, and the right wins again, but it's not easy to see how that happens.
    The problem being that there are multiple varieties of right wing views, often in opposition to others.

    Balanced budgets versus low taxes
    Economic nationalism versus free trade
    Social conservatism versus libertarianism
    Home ownership versus nimbyism
    Aspiration for the young versus oldies uber alles
    Isolationism versus military support for friends and allies
    The Conservative Party used to recognise that it was a coalition.

    I don't think either Reform, or the ramshackle new model Tory party really have any such aspiration.
    For a coalition to succeed there must be enough resources to keep enough factions satisfied.

    So economic nationalists and free traders could be satisfied before globalisation brought new economic competitors.

    Balanced budgets and tax cuts could be achieved thanks to North Sea Oil.

    And home ownership and nimbyism could be combined before mass immigration.

    But we're now in an era of choices and where every choice will have an actual loser, rather than just opportunity cost loser.

    Labour is learning this now in government.

    Every other party which follows into government will learn it as well.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,905
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,465
    boulay said:

    O/T today is a good example of the inherent physical differences between men and women when it comes to sport (no, not the Swiss women’s national football team being beaten by Lucerne’s under 15 boys 7-1).

    Faith Kipyegon will today attempt to become the first woman to run a mile under 4 minutes. To do this she will be aided by specialist kit including an aerodynamic skin suit, specialist energy returning lightweight spikes and specialist pace runners arranged to disrupt the airflow for her. She will attempt this on a modern track which returns energy after a lifetime of the best scientific conditioning of fitness and nutrition.

    71 years ago Roger Banister did it with none of the above assistance after starting the day at work as a medical student then catching the train up to Oxford mid morning and running at 6pm.

    I'm not sure inherent is quite the right word, bearing in mind that only a small percentage of men would be able to run faster than Kipyegon, and so the difference is latent in most people.

    The breadth of the variability is greater than the size of the difference in either extreme or averages, and so the overlap is huge. At my local parkrun, for example, the first female finisher was 9th overall, out of 23 runners, ahead of 6 further male runners. And parkrunners are still only a small proportion of the population.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,323

    Nigelb said:

    Andy_JS said:

    163 MPs on The reasoned amendment now from across the Commons.
    Let's see how Captain Hullbreach responds today

    Devastating verdict from Nick Watt on the Today programme: Starmer is neither loved nor feared by the rebels. At 8:13.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live/bbc_radio_fourfm
    Who is scared of blancmange?
    You never experienced my old school dinners.
    I have visions of you delivering the line 'my school was so rough the blancmange was armed' in a working mens club
    Hmmm


    Isn’t it “Brittas” not “Britas”?
  • TazTaz Posts: 19,261

    Three words.

    Sovereign debt crisis.

    Three letters.

    L O L
    Yeah, it would be hilarious. Really funny
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,905
    isam said:

    boulay said:

    O/T today is a good example of the inherent physical differences between men and women when it comes to sport (no, not the Swiss women’s national football team being beaten by Lucerne’s under 15 boys 7-1).

    Faith Kipyegon will today attempt to become the first woman to run a mile under 4 minutes. To do this she will be aided by specialist kit including an aerodynamic skin suit, specialist energy returning lightweight spikes and specialist pace runners arranged to disrupt the airflow for her. She will attempt this on a modern track which returns energy after a lifetime of the best scientific conditioning of fitness and nutrition.

    71 years ago Roger Banister did it with none of the above assistance after starting the day at work as a medical student then catching the train up to Oxford mid morning and running at 6pm.

    A friend of mine, sadly no longer with us, always used to imagine telling Bannister, as he was collapsing over the finishing line, that fifty years later people would be running sub 4 min miles every race and RB replying “Fuck off, no one will ever do it again”
    The mile record of 3:43.13 hasn't been broken since 7th July 1999.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mile_run_world_record_progression
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,942
    edited 8:41AM

    boulay said:

    O/T today is a good example of the inherent physical differences between men and women when it comes to sport (no, not the Swiss women’s national football team being beaten by Lucerne’s under 15 boys 7-1).

    Faith Kipyegon will today attempt to become the first woman to run a mile under 4 minutes. To do this she will be aided by specialist kit including an aerodynamic skin suit, specialist energy returning lightweight spikes and specialist pace runners arranged to disrupt the airflow for her. She will attempt this on a modern track which returns energy after a lifetime of the best scientific conditioning of fitness and nutrition.

    71 years ago Roger Banister did it with none of the above assistance after starting the day at work as a medical student then catching the train up to Oxford mid morning and running at 6pm.

    And 40 Capstan full strength a day.
    Ok, maybe not that many but he liked a fag and a pint in the days before Woke ruined sport.
    I posted this last month. Smoking is good for you. Here is Tommy Hampson describing the day he won gold in the 800 metres at the Los Angeles Olympics: Had lunch of boiled fish, dry toast and a cup of tea. Then I had a cigarette and chatted over technical details with teammates. World record too.

    I gather that while our footballers like a drop of ale, several European players' vice is smoking.
    A cult hero at Blackburn and Turkey, Tugay, who played 30+ games every season, for 9-10 seasons, apparently chain smoked before, DURING, and after matches. Apparently couldn't get down the tunnel at half time to get his next hit of nicotine.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,465

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Ukraine are now using drones armed with nets to take down Russian drones.

    The current period is like the Cambrian explosion. Every idea is being tried out in a riot of rapid evolution.

    When you have a department of Defence like ours, which can't bring new equipment into service in much less than a decade and longer for anything complicated, this is a real problem. Whatever drones we buy are very likely to be antiquated before they are in the front line.
    We'll see.
    There have already been a handful of UK innovations in Ukraine.
    The defence review promises further efforts in that direction, so time will tell.

    But you're almost certainly correct that most of the procurement budget will continue to be spent in the old manner.
    Yes. There's been quite a bit of evidence of innovative British work in the crisis conditions of the War, which is reassuring.

    The challenge is making that attitude more common in peace time, and it does look like the people at the top want that to happen.
    Are the people at the top doing anything about it, or do they "want that to happen" in the same way I'd quite like West Ham to win the Champions League?
    We'll find out over the next year or two as the government responds to the defence review.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 84,942
    Andy_JS said:

    isam said:

    boulay said:

    O/T today is a good example of the inherent physical differences between men and women when it comes to sport (no, not the Swiss women’s national football team being beaten by Lucerne’s under 15 boys 7-1).

    Faith Kipyegon will today attempt to become the first woman to run a mile under 4 minutes. To do this she will be aided by specialist kit including an aerodynamic skin suit, specialist energy returning lightweight spikes and specialist pace runners arranged to disrupt the airflow for her. She will attempt this on a modern track which returns energy after a lifetime of the best scientific conditioning of fitness and nutrition.

    71 years ago Roger Banister did it with none of the above assistance after starting the day at work as a medical student then catching the train up to Oxford mid morning and running at 6pm.

    A friend of mine, sadly no longer with us, always used to imagine telling Bannister, as he was collapsing over the finishing line, that fifty years later people would be running sub 4 min miles every race and RB replying “Fuck off, no one will ever do it again”
    The mile record of 3:43.13 hasn't been broken since 7th July 1999.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mile_run_world_record_progression
    Drug testing has got a lot better....
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