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How united are Reform? – politicalbetting.com

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  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,968
    eek said:

    Pagan2 said:

    carnforth said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Dopermean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    See one thing that annoys me, I have built up a pension pot just over 200k over the years by forgoing money from my wages.

    Currently my bills however are 21144 a year before food , clothing , entertainment

    not much I can do to reduce them

    I suspect when I retire and get a state pension and a non index linked annuity of about 11k which is what they are predicting I can get....well I am thinking I am a fool for saving that money as I am not likely going to be any better off for doing so than someone who put away nothing over the years, indeed possibly worse off as they will probably be eligible for benefits I wont get like free prescriptions etc.

    I think you'd be much better off if instead of a pension pot you had a house, which shows everything wrong with this country.

    Whats the point in putting away 200k to get an annuity which will then be spent on rent?
    You don't have to get an annuity.
    But... assuming you're over 55 pagan2, spunk the lot in lump sum and drawdown having fun then go on pension credit and housing benefit.. it makes sense
    I am sure there will be a rule somewhere about depriving yourself of income
    If you use the proceeds to buy a property, and then equity release it, probably not.
    I doubt even if I drewdown the lot it still wouldn't be enough for a house
    £80,000 will get you a 2 bed terrace in Darlington that I would happily BTL.

    Hit the villages in county durham and it will be less than that.

    Separately we drove through North Cumbria on Sunday (heading slowly to Ambleside from Glasgow) and there were some very acceptable houses for £200,000 ish. and a 8 bedroom farm house that was tempting for £350,000 if it wasn't for a place in Llanfairfechan I'm actually really tempted to buy for it's sea front location).
    Yes but can't move currently as have to look after my father
  • eekeek Posts: 30,296
    Pagan2 said:

    eek said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    See one thing that annoys me, I have built up a pension pot just over 200k over the years by forgoing money from my wages.

    Currently my bills however are 21144 a year before food , clothing , entertainment

    not much I can do to reduce them

    I suspect when I retire and get a state pension and a non index linked annuity of about 11k which is what they are predicting I can get....well I am thinking I am a fool for saving that money as I am not likely going to be any better off for doing so than someone who put away nothing over the years, indeed possibly worse off as they will probably be eligible for benefits I wont get like free prescriptions etc.

    I think you'd be much better off if instead of a pension pot you had a house, which shows everything wrong with this country.

    Whats the point in putting away 200k to get an annuity which will then be spent on rent?
    Hard to buy a house as a single person these days, did own co own a house till 2003 with the gf but we split up and she got half. Couldn't afford to buy after that
    Really - my 22 (at the time) daughter did exactly that.

    Paying the mortgage off is harder but equally she has 30k of house improvements to pay for so tenants in the 2 spare bedrooms will cover those costs.

    Plus she's generous - both students / tenants will be paying well below market rates next year, especially the one who was begging for a discount and even afterwards trying to minimise the weeks she had to pay for,
    Her name was on the deeds to because I am stupid, she forced the sale as I couldn't buy her out. She picked the wrong time for me as I was made redundant so couldn't even remortgage to buy her out (I hasten to add in her defence it wasn't the redundancy we had been rocky the last year before that and was always heading that way)
    Ouch, I'm sorry to hear that but head north there is a reason why I live where I do and it's the location, local people and the communication (air, train) links...
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,542
    Water cannon in use in Ballymena.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 5,084
    eek said:

    Pagan2 said:

    carnforth said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Dopermean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    See one thing that annoys me, I have built up a pension pot just over 200k over the years by forgoing money from my wages.

    Currently my bills however are 21144 a year before food , clothing , entertainment

    not much I can do to reduce them

    I suspect when I retire and get a state pension and a non index linked annuity of about 11k which is what they are predicting I can get....well I am thinking I am a fool for saving that money as I am not likely going to be any better off for doing so than someone who put away nothing over the years, indeed possibly worse off as they will probably be eligible for benefits I wont get like free prescriptions etc.

    I think you'd be much better off if instead of a pension pot you had a house, which shows everything wrong with this country.

    Whats the point in putting away 200k to get an annuity which will then be spent on rent?
    You don't have to get an annuity.
    But... assuming you're over 55 pagan2, spunk the lot in lump sum and drawdown having fun then go on pension credit and housing benefit.. it makes sense
    I am sure there will be a rule somewhere about depriving yourself of income
    If you use the proceeds to buy a property, and then equity release it, probably not.
    I doubt even if I drewdown the lot it still wouldn't be enough for a house
    £80,000 will get you a 2 bed terrace in Darlington that I would happily BTL.

    Hit the villages in county durham and it will be less than that.

    Separately we drove through North Cumbria on Sunday (heading slowly to Ambleside from Glasgow) and there were some very acceptable houses for £200,000 ish. and a 8 bedroom farm house that was tempting for £350,000 if it wasn't for a place in Llanfairfechan I'm actually really tempted to buy for it's sea front location).
    I intend to retire to North Ayrshire. Houses are cheap and there is a good train link to Glasgow.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,968
    eek said:

    Pagan2 said:

    eek said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    See one thing that annoys me, I have built up a pension pot just over 200k over the years by forgoing money from my wages.

    Currently my bills however are 21144 a year before food , clothing , entertainment

    not much I can do to reduce them

    I suspect when I retire and get a state pension and a non index linked annuity of about 11k which is what they are predicting I can get....well I am thinking I am a fool for saving that money as I am not likely going to be any better off for doing so than someone who put away nothing over the years, indeed possibly worse off as they will probably be eligible for benefits I wont get like free prescriptions etc.

    I think you'd be much better off if instead of a pension pot you had a house, which shows everything wrong with this country.

    Whats the point in putting away 200k to get an annuity which will then be spent on rent?
    Hard to buy a house as a single person these days, did own co own a house till 2003 with the gf but we split up and she got half. Couldn't afford to buy after that
    Really - my 22 (at the time) daughter did exactly that.

    Paying the mortgage off is harder but equally she has 30k of house improvements to pay for so tenants in the 2 spare bedrooms will cover those costs.

    Plus she's generous - both students / tenants will be paying well below market rates next year, especially the one who was begging for a discount and even afterwards trying to minimise the weeks she had to pay for,
    Her name was on the deeds to because I am stupid, she forced the sale as I couldn't buy her out. She picked the wrong time for me as I was made redundant so couldn't even remortgage to buy her out (I hasten to add in her defence it wasn't the redundancy we had been rocky the last year before that and was always heading that way)
    Ouch, I'm sorry to hear that but head north there is a reason why I live where I do and it's the location, local people and the communication (air, train) links...
    If it was just down to me maybe, however its not and when you suggest people on housing benefit move somewhere cheaper just to point out you get shrieked at by the guardian readers for suggesting they break their ties with home and community networks
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,565
    Pagan2 said:

    carnforth said:

    Pagan2 said:

    carnforth said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Dopermean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    See one thing that annoys me, I have built up a pension pot just over 200k over the years by forgoing money from my wages.

    Currently my bills however are 21144 a year before food , clothing , entertainment

    not much I can do to reduce them

    I suspect when I retire and get a state pension and a non index linked annuity of about 11k which is what they are predicting I can get....well I am thinking I am a fool for saving that money as I am not likely going to be any better off for doing so than someone who put away nothing over the years, indeed possibly worse off as they will probably be eligible for benefits I wont get like free prescriptions etc.

    I think you'd be much better off if instead of a pension pot you had a house, which shows everything wrong with this country.

    Whats the point in putting away 200k to get an annuity which will then be spent on rent?
    You don't have to get an annuity.
    But... assuming you're over 55 pagan2, spunk the lot in lump sum and drawdown having fun then go on pension credit and housing benefit.. it makes sense
    I am sure there will be a rule somewhere about depriving yourself of income
    If you use the proceeds to buy a property, and then equity release it, probably not.
    I doubt even if I drewdown the lot it still wouldn't be enough for a house
    I hear Hull is nice.
    I am however tied down here as my father is in a home here
    Where is 'here' ?

    Best wishes with your Dad
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,968
    Pulpstar said:

    Pagan2 said:

    carnforth said:

    Pagan2 said:

    carnforth said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Dopermean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    See one thing that annoys me, I have built up a pension pot just over 200k over the years by forgoing money from my wages.

    Currently my bills however are 21144 a year before food , clothing , entertainment

    not much I can do to reduce them

    I suspect when I retire and get a state pension and a non index linked annuity of about 11k which is what they are predicting I can get....well I am thinking I am a fool for saving that money as I am not likely going to be any better off for doing so than someone who put away nothing over the years, indeed possibly worse off as they will probably be eligible for benefits I wont get like free prescriptions etc.

    I think you'd be much better off if instead of a pension pot you had a house, which shows everything wrong with this country.

    Whats the point in putting away 200k to get an annuity which will then be spent on rent?
    You don't have to get an annuity.
    But... assuming you're over 55 pagan2, spunk the lot in lump sum and drawdown having fun then go on pension credit and housing benefit.. it makes sense
    I am sure there will be a rule somewhere about depriving yourself of income
    If you use the proceeds to buy a property, and then equity release it, probably not.
    I doubt even if I drewdown the lot it still wouldn't be enough for a house
    I hear Hull is nice.
    I am however tied down here as my father is in a home here
    Where is 'here' ?

    Best wishes with your Dad
    Devon. yes not the cheapest place in the world but cheaper than where I moved back from which is slough
  • eekeek Posts: 30,296
    edited June 10
    Pagan2 said:

    eek said:

    Pagan2 said:

    eek said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    See one thing that annoys me, I have built up a pension pot just over 200k over the years by forgoing money from my wages.

    Currently my bills however are 21144 a year before food , clothing , entertainment

    not much I can do to reduce them

    I suspect when I retire and get a state pension and a non index linked annuity of about 11k which is what they are predicting I can get....well I am thinking I am a fool for saving that money as I am not likely going to be any better off for doing so than someone who put away nothing over the years, indeed possibly worse off as they will probably be eligible for benefits I wont get like free prescriptions etc.

    I think you'd be much better off if instead of a pension pot you had a house, which shows everything wrong with this country.

    Whats the point in putting away 200k to get an annuity which will then be spent on rent?
    Hard to buy a house as a single person these days, did own co own a house till 2003 with the gf but we split up and she got half. Couldn't afford to buy after that
    Really - my 22 (at the time) daughter did exactly that.

    Paying the mortgage off is harder but equally she has 30k of house improvements to pay for so tenants in the 2 spare bedrooms will cover those costs.

    Plus she's generous - both students / tenants will be paying well below market rates next year, especially the one who was begging for a discount and even afterwards trying to minimise the weeks she had to pay for,
    Her name was on the deeds to because I am stupid, she forced the sale as I couldn't buy her out. She picked the wrong time for me as I was made redundant so couldn't even remortgage to buy her out (I hasten to add in her defence it wasn't the redundancy we had been rocky the last year before that and was always heading that way)
    Ouch, I'm sorry to hear that but head north there is a reason why I live where I do and it's the location, local people and the communication (air, train) links...
    If it was just down to me maybe, however its not and when you suggest people on housing benefit move somewhere cheaper just to point out you get shrieked at by the guardian readers for suggesting they break their ties with home and community networks
    That wasn't my aim - I've screwed myself by moving north prior to the boom in house prices from 1999 onwards.

    However, I suspect I'm far happier in my cheap house up north than I would have been anywhere else. The location is really unsurpassed - Mrs Eek works in the Dales 1 hours drive away, Moors less than an hour, Lakes 75-90 minutes, Airport 15 minutes (I usually set of 40 minutes before departure), London 2.5 hours, Edinburgh 2 hours.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,542
    carnforth said:

    Pagan2 said:

    carnforth said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Dopermean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    See one thing that annoys me, I have built up a pension pot just over 200k over the years by forgoing money from my wages.

    Currently my bills however are 21144 a year before food , clothing , entertainment

    not much I can do to reduce them

    I suspect when I retire and get a state pension and a non index linked annuity of about 11k which is what they are predicting I can get....well I am thinking I am a fool for saving that money as I am not likely going to be any better off for doing so than someone who put away nothing over the years, indeed possibly worse off as they will probably be eligible for benefits I wont get like free prescriptions etc.

    I think you'd be much better off if instead of a pension pot you had a house, which shows everything wrong with this country.

    Whats the point in putting away 200k to get an annuity which will then be spent on rent?
    You don't have to get an annuity.
    But... assuming you're over 55 pagan2, spunk the lot in lump sum and drawdown having fun then go on pension credit and housing benefit.. it makes sense
    I am sure there will be a rule somewhere about depriving yourself of income
    If you use the proceeds to buy a property, and then equity release it, probably not.
    I doubt even if I drewdown the lot it still wouldn't be enough for a house
    I hear Hull is nice.
    "Oxford's a right dump!"
  • eekeek Posts: 30,296

    Water cannon in use in Ballymena.

    It's allowed in Northern Ireland but not elsewhere.

    Got to say if that's out it's a real problem. I remember a "riot" that made national news in Banbridge 15 or so years ago. The locals a couple of days later said it really just Dave burning a few things to claim on insurance..
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,968
    eek said:

    Pagan2 said:

    eek said:

    Pagan2 said:

    eek said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    See one thing that annoys me, I have built up a pension pot just over 200k over the years by forgoing money from my wages.

    Currently my bills however are 21144 a year before food , clothing , entertainment

    not much I can do to reduce them

    I suspect when I retire and get a state pension and a non index linked annuity of about 11k which is what they are predicting I can get....well I am thinking I am a fool for saving that money as I am not likely going to be any better off for doing so than someone who put away nothing over the years, indeed possibly worse off as they will probably be eligible for benefits I wont get like free prescriptions etc.

    I think you'd be much better off if instead of a pension pot you had a house, which shows everything wrong with this country.

    Whats the point in putting away 200k to get an annuity which will then be spent on rent?
    Hard to buy a house as a single person these days, did own co own a house till 2003 with the gf but we split up and she got half. Couldn't afford to buy after that
    Really - my 22 (at the time) daughter did exactly that.

    Paying the mortgage off is harder but equally she has 30k of house improvements to pay for so tenants in the 2 spare bedrooms will cover those costs.

    Plus she's generous - both students / tenants will be paying well below market rates next year, especially the one who was begging for a discount and even afterwards trying to minimise the weeks she had to pay for,
    Her name was on the deeds to because I am stupid, she forced the sale as I couldn't buy her out. She picked the wrong time for me as I was made redundant so couldn't even remortgage to buy her out (I hasten to add in her defence it wasn't the redundancy we had been rocky the last year before that and was always heading that way)
    Ouch, I'm sorry to hear that but head north there is a reason why I live where I do and it's the location, local people and the communication (air, train) links...
    If it was just down to me maybe, however its not and when you suggest people on housing benefit move somewhere cheaper just to point out you get shrieked at by the guardian readers for suggesting they break their ties with home and community networks
    That wasn't my aim - I've screwed myself by moving north prior to the boom in house prices from 1999 onwards.

    However, I suspect I'm far happier in my cheap house up north than I would have been anywhere else. The location is really unsurpassed - Mrs Eek works in the Dales 1 hours drive away, Moors less than an hour, Lakes 75-90 minutes, Airport 15 minutes (I usually set of 40 minutes before departure), London 2.5 hours, Edinburgh 2 hours.
    I had to move to slough in 87 for work, covid was actually a god send as companies got used to people working from home. If it hadn't been for that I would have had to quit work altogether to move down here about 3 years ago. Kept my father out of the home as long as possible but no choice by last christmas
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,597

    Water cannon in use in Ballymena.

    I think I/we drove through this town about 5 years ago on the way to the Giant's Causeway.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,296

    carnforth said:

    Pagan2 said:

    carnforth said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Dopermean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    See one thing that annoys me, I have built up a pension pot just over 200k over the years by forgoing money from my wages.

    Currently my bills however are 21144 a year before food , clothing , entertainment

    not much I can do to reduce them

    I suspect when I retire and get a state pension and a non index linked annuity of about 11k which is what they are predicting I can get....well I am thinking I am a fool for saving that money as I am not likely going to be any better off for doing so than someone who put away nothing over the years, indeed possibly worse off as they will probably be eligible for benefits I wont get like free prescriptions etc.

    I think you'd be much better off if instead of a pension pot you had a house, which shows everything wrong with this country.

    Whats the point in putting away 200k to get an annuity which will then be spent on rent?
    You don't have to get an annuity.
    But... assuming you're over 55 pagan2, spunk the lot in lump sum and drawdown having fun then go on pension credit and housing benefit.. it makes sense
    I am sure there will be a rule somewhere about depriving yourself of income
    If you use the proceeds to buy a property, and then equity release it, probably not.
    I doubt even if I drewdown the lot it still wouldn't be enough for a house
    I hear Hull is nice.
    "Oxford's a right dump!"
    It is - it was second rate back in 1261 so it had to play politics / games to close Northampton down..
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,240
    About the same cost as Ajax, which has provided a fraction of the capability.

    Seoul and Warsaw are finalizing a massive deal worth nearly $6 billion for 180 K2 tanks — some of which will be assembled directly in Poland.

    This deal is, de facto, a farewell to Soviet-era weaponry. Poland is making a full transition to Western and Asian systems. It’s becoming NATO's armored fortress, starting to assemble advanced tanks and strengthening its sovereignty and influence.

    https://x.com/nexta_tv/status/1932424775852261750
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 55,033
    eek said:

    Laughable that the Government is trotting out a £14 billion cost for Sizewell C.

    It will be three times that.

    And >>10 years
    Upside is Rolls Royce has got a mini nukes project - and I strongly suspect that will be the winning solution because continual production beats one off builds.
    They should let me do my concept of a thermonuclear reactor.

    Detonate one nuke every five minutes in a cavern containing a large quantity of salts. The molten salt is heat exchanged to generate steam.

    For real fun, add a bunch of uranium metal to the salts. After a few detonations you’ll have a lake of plutonium salts bubbling away for the next few hundred years. A fission reactor meltdown on a huge scale - and you only need the occasional bomb to stir it and add some more plutonium.

  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 5,054
    edited June 10

    carnforth said:

    Pagan2 said:

    carnforth said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Dopermean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    See one thing that annoys me, I have built up a pension pot just over 200k over the years by forgoing money from my wages.

    Currently my bills however are 21144 a year before food , clothing , entertainment

    not much I can do to reduce them

    I suspect when I retire and get a state pension and a non index linked annuity of about 11k which is what they are predicting I can get....well I am thinking I am a fool for saving that money as I am not likely going to be any better off for doing so than someone who put away nothing over the years, indeed possibly worse off as they will probably be eligible for benefits I wont get like free prescriptions etc.

    I think you'd be much better off if instead of a pension pot you had a house, which shows everything wrong with this country.

    Whats the point in putting away 200k to get an annuity which will then be spent on rent?
    You don't have to get an annuity.
    But... assuming you're over 55 pagan2, spunk the lot in lump sum and drawdown having fun then go on pension credit and housing benefit.. it makes sense
    I am sure there will be a rule somewhere about depriving yourself of income
    If you use the proceeds to buy a property, and then equity release it, probably not.
    I doubt even if I drewdown the lot it still wouldn't be enough for a house
    I hear Hull is nice.
    "Oxford's a right dump!"
    The City of Screaming Tyres. Certain parts definitely are a dump.

    However, Hull has little to recommend it. Try Beverley.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,565
    Pagan2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pagan2 said:

    carnforth said:

    Pagan2 said:

    carnforth said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Dopermean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    See one thing that annoys me, I have built up a pension pot just over 200k over the years by forgoing money from my wages.

    Currently my bills however are 21144 a year before food , clothing , entertainment

    not much I can do to reduce them

    I suspect when I retire and get a state pension and a non index linked annuity of about 11k which is what they are predicting I can get....well I am thinking I am a fool for saving that money as I am not likely going to be any better off for doing so than someone who put away nothing over the years, indeed possibly worse off as they will probably be eligible for benefits I wont get like free prescriptions etc.

    I think you'd be much better off if instead of a pension pot you had a house, which shows everything wrong with this country.

    Whats the point in putting away 200k to get an annuity which will then be spent on rent?
    You don't have to get an annuity.
    But... assuming you're over 55 pagan2, spunk the lot in lump sum and drawdown having fun then go on pension credit and housing benefit.. it makes sense
    I am sure there will be a rule somewhere about depriving yourself of income
    If you use the proceeds to buy a property, and then equity release it, probably not.
    I doubt even if I drewdown the lot it still wouldn't be enough for a house
    I hear Hull is nice.
    I am however tied down here as my father is in a home here
    Where is 'here' ?

    Best wishes with your Dad
    Devon. yes not the cheapest place in the world but cheaper than where I moved back from which is slough
    Ah, was in Combe Martin last week. Wonderful place.

    There's definitely stuff under 200k in Devon though..

    Big county with windy roads so depends which bit you're in I guess
  • eekeek Posts: 30,296
    Andy_JS said:

    Water cannon in use in Ballymena.

    I think I/we drove through this town about 5 years ago on the way to the Giant's Causeway.
    I'm surprised, everytime I've been in Northern Ireland the joke has been all roads leads to Coleraine and yes you will be driving through it every day.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,827
    edited June 10
    Pagan2 said:

    carnforth said:

    Pagan2 said:

    carnforth said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Dopermean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    See one thing that annoys me, I have built up a pension pot just over 200k over the years by forgoing money from my wages.

    Currently my bills however are 21144 a year before food , clothing , entertainment

    not much I can do to reduce them

    I suspect when I retire and get a state pension and a non index linked annuity of about 11k which is what they are predicting I can get....well I am thinking I am a fool for saving that money as I am not likely going to be any better off for doing so than someone who put away nothing over the years, indeed possibly worse off as they will probably be eligible for benefits I wont get like free prescriptions etc.

    I think you'd be much better off if instead of a pension pot you had a house, which shows everything wrong with this country.

    Whats the point in putting away 200k to get an annuity which will then be spent on rent?
    You don't have to get an annuity.
    But... assuming you're over 55 pagan2, spunk the lot in lump sum and drawdown having fun then go on pension credit and housing benefit.. it makes sense
    I am sure there will be a rule somewhere about depriving yourself of income
    If you use the proceeds to buy a property, and then equity release it, probably not.
    I doubt even if I drewdown the lot it still wouldn't be enough for a house
    I hear Hull is nice.
    I am however tied down here as my father is in a home here
    [Deleted. Question already answered]
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,968
    Nigelb said:

    About the same cost as Ajax, which has provided a fraction of the capability.

    Seoul and Warsaw are finalizing a massive deal worth nearly $6 billion for 180 K2 tanks — some of which will be assembled directly in Poland.

    This deal is, de facto, a farewell to Soviet-era weaponry. Poland is making a full transition to Western and Asian systems. It’s becoming NATO's armored fortress, starting to assemble advanced tanks and strengthening its sovereignty and influence.

    https://x.com/nexta_tv/status/1932424775852261750

    Erm how effective did you expect a bleach based cleaning product to be at defeating tanks exactly?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,912
    Stereodog said:

    fitalass said:

    Herald - " Senior SNP figures held a secret meeting on Monday night to discuss removing John Swinney as party leader, The Herald has learned, following last week’s defeat in the Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse by-election.

    One of the 25 attendees said the First Minister had two weeks to come up with a new strategy on independence — or risk facing a leadership challenge at the SNP conference in October.

    They warned there could be a "clear out” in the internal elections, with challenges for key positions including depute leader and national secretary."

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/25229565.snp-rebels-bid-oust-swinney-by-election-defeat/

    Piss funny. “We’d be doing a lot better if we had a new plan to offer on independence”

    No, that’s what your hardline members want. What your voters - especially former voters - want is for you to fix schools, hospitals, councils, transport.

    What’s the proposal? I can’t see a dentist. Ah well we have this plan for independence in 10 years.
    It's pretty much irrelevant anyway because Swinney wouldn't know what an independence strategy was if it hit him in the face. He's the political equivalent of a cricket nightwatchman, except there's no obvious big hitter waiting their turn.
    Wait a minute, I’m sure I read on PB that Kate Forbes was just the gal to get the voters flocking back.
    Of a fairly short list Forbes probably tops out as about the only real alternative to Swinney. Whether that changes the SNP trajectory or not is a different question, but seems quite reasonable that one should look at the headline Yes figures in the polls and then look at the SNP's polling and conclude that something's gone awry somewhere and Swinney isn't the person who's going to turn it all round.

    If they want to bleed out slowly, probably still be largest party in Holyrood 2026 but nowhere near a majority which leaves them essentially at the mercy of the other parties anyway, then they should definitely keep doing what they're doing just now. But the suspicion is they'd actually be kind of happy with that.
    As someone with zero knowledge of Scottish politics I'd be really interested to know why John Swinney is so disliked. On the very few times he ever troubles the news I'm England he always sounds reasonably competent and reassuring. Maybe I just think that because he looks like one of my lovely ex colleagues.
    He looks very much like what he is, a mild mannered gradualist which doesn’t really suit the tenor of the times. The Indy ultras hate him for not getting independence NOW (despite themselves being unable to articulate how that would happen), Unionists rage against him like they’ve done for every leader of the SNP (though less than a week ago some of them were predicting/fearing that the Swinney-led SNP would win the recent by election handsomely).
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,968
    Pulpstar said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pagan2 said:

    carnforth said:

    Pagan2 said:

    carnforth said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Dopermean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    See one thing that annoys me, I have built up a pension pot just over 200k over the years by forgoing money from my wages.

    Currently my bills however are 21144 a year before food , clothing , entertainment

    not much I can do to reduce them

    I suspect when I retire and get a state pension and a non index linked annuity of about 11k which is what they are predicting I can get....well I am thinking I am a fool for saving that money as I am not likely going to be any better off for doing so than someone who put away nothing over the years, indeed possibly worse off as they will probably be eligible for benefits I wont get like free prescriptions etc.

    I think you'd be much better off if instead of a pension pot you had a house, which shows everything wrong with this country.

    Whats the point in putting away 200k to get an annuity which will then be spent on rent?
    You don't have to get an annuity.
    But... assuming you're over 55 pagan2, spunk the lot in lump sum and drawdown having fun then go on pension credit and housing benefit.. it makes sense
    I am sure there will be a rule somewhere about depriving yourself of income
    If you use the proceeds to buy a property, and then equity release it, probably not.
    I doubt even if I drewdown the lot it still wouldn't be enough for a house
    I hear Hull is nice.
    I am however tied down here as my father is in a home here
    Where is 'here' ?

    Best wishes with your Dad
    Devon. yes not the cheapest place in the world but cheaper than where I moved back from which is slough
    Ah, was in Combe Martin last week. Wonderful place.

    There's definitely stuff under 200k in Devon though..

    Big county with windy roads so depends which bit you're in I guess
    Points at no car so have to stay somewhere with reasonable transport links so in exmouth devon where my fathers care home is
  • eekeek Posts: 30,296
    Pagan2 said:

    eek said:

    Pagan2 said:

    carnforth said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Dopermean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    See one thing that annoys me, I have built up a pension pot just over 200k over the years by forgoing money from my wages.

    Currently my bills however are 21144 a year before food , clothing , entertainment

    not much I can do to reduce them

    I suspect when I retire and get a state pension and a non index linked annuity of about 11k which is what they are predicting I can get....well I am thinking I am a fool for saving that money as I am not likely going to be any better off for doing so than someone who put away nothing over the years, indeed possibly worse off as they will probably be eligible for benefits I wont get like free prescriptions etc.

    I think you'd be much better off if instead of a pension pot you had a house, which shows everything wrong with this country.

    Whats the point in putting away 200k to get an annuity which will then be spent on rent?
    You don't have to get an annuity.
    But... assuming you're over 55 pagan2, spunk the lot in lump sum and drawdown having fun then go on pension credit and housing benefit.. it makes sense
    I am sure there will be a rule somewhere about depriving yourself of income
    If you use the proceeds to buy a property, and then equity release it, probably not.
    I doubt even if I drewdown the lot it still wouldn't be enough for a house
    £80,000 will get you a 2 bed terrace in Darlington that I would happily BTL.

    Hit the villages in county durham and it will be less than that.

    Separately we drove through North Cumbria on Sunday (heading slowly to Ambleside from Glasgow) and there were some very acceptable houses for £200,000 ish. and a 8 bedroom farm house that was tempting for £350,000 if it wasn't for a place in Llanfairfechan I'm actually really tempted to buy for it's sea front location).
    Yes but can't move currently as have to look after my father
    Sadly the day will come when that isn't necessary. At which point if you haven't got other ties, move North it's actually rather nice..
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,968
    eek said:

    Pagan2 said:

    eek said:

    Pagan2 said:

    carnforth said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Dopermean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    See one thing that annoys me, I have built up a pension pot just over 200k over the years by forgoing money from my wages.

    Currently my bills however are 21144 a year before food , clothing , entertainment

    not much I can do to reduce them

    I suspect when I retire and get a state pension and a non index linked annuity of about 11k which is what they are predicting I can get....well I am thinking I am a fool for saving that money as I am not likely going to be any better off for doing so than someone who put away nothing over the years, indeed possibly worse off as they will probably be eligible for benefits I wont get like free prescriptions etc.

    I think you'd be much better off if instead of a pension pot you had a house, which shows everything wrong with this country.

    Whats the point in putting away 200k to get an annuity which will then be spent on rent?
    You don't have to get an annuity.
    But... assuming you're over 55 pagan2, spunk the lot in lump sum and drawdown having fun then go on pension credit and housing benefit.. it makes sense
    I am sure there will be a rule somewhere about depriving yourself of income
    If you use the proceeds to buy a property, and then equity release it, probably not.
    I doubt even if I drewdown the lot it still wouldn't be enough for a house
    £80,000 will get you a 2 bed terrace in Darlington that I would happily BTL.

    Hit the villages in county durham and it will be less than that.

    Separately we drove through North Cumbria on Sunday (heading slowly to Ambleside from Glasgow) and there were some very acceptable houses for £200,000 ish. and a 8 bedroom farm house that was tempting for £350,000 if it wasn't for a place in Llanfairfechan I'm actually really tempted to buy for it's sea front location).
    Yes but can't move currently as have to look after my father
    Sadly the day will come when that isn't necessary. At which point if you haven't got other ties, move North it's actually rather nice..
    I have other ties here though and be too old to move by then, indeed I suspect it more likely my father attends my funeral than me his. Sadly he is ridiculously healthy just no longer has a mind
  • eekeek Posts: 30,296

    eek said:

    Laughable that the Government is trotting out a £14 billion cost for Sizewell C.

    It will be three times that.

    And >>10 years
    Upside is Rolls Royce has got a mini nukes project - and I strongly suspect that will be the winning solution because continual production beats one off builds.
    They should let me do my concept of a thermonuclear reactor.

    Detonate one nuke every five minutes in a cavern containing a large quantity of salts. The molten salt is heat exchanged to generate steam.

    For real fun, add a bunch of uranium metal to the salts. After a few detonations you’ll have a lake of plutonium salts bubbling away for the next few hundred years. A fission reactor meltdown on a huge scale - and you only need the occasional bomb to stir it and add some more plutonium.

    Anyone with a direct phone line to Nick Faldo (who claims to have Trump's phone number and he will pick up). I suspect we could have that as US policy within a week. We just need to work out how to put it the benefits in small words he understands.
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 994

    Stereodog said:

    fitalass said:

    Herald - " Senior SNP figures held a secret meeting on Monday night to discuss removing John Swinney as party leader, The Herald has learned, following last week’s defeat in the Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse by-election.

    One of the 25 attendees said the First Minister had two weeks to come up with a new strategy on independence — or risk facing a leadership challenge at the SNP conference in October.

    They warned there could be a "clear out” in the internal elections, with challenges for key positions including depute leader and national secretary."

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/25229565.snp-rebels-bid-oust-swinney-by-election-defeat/

    Piss funny. “We’d be doing a lot better if we had a new plan to offer on independence”

    No, that’s what your hardline members want. What your voters - especially former voters - want is for you to fix schools, hospitals, councils, transport.

    What’s the proposal? I can’t see a dentist. Ah well we have this plan for independence in 10 years.
    It's pretty much irrelevant anyway because Swinney wouldn't know what an independence strategy was if it hit him in the face. He's the political equivalent of a cricket nightwatchman, except there's no obvious big hitter waiting their turn.
    Wait a minute, I’m sure I read on PB that Kate Forbes was just the gal to get the voters flocking back.
    Of a fairly short list Forbes probably tops out as about the only real alternative to Swinney. Whether that changes the SNP trajectory or not is a different question, but seems quite reasonable that one should look at the headline Yes figures in the polls and then look at the SNP's polling and conclude that something's gone awry somewhere and Swinney isn't the person who's going to turn it all round.

    If they want to bleed out slowly, probably still be largest party in Holyrood 2026 but nowhere near a majority which leaves them essentially at the mercy of the other parties anyway, then they should definitely keep doing what they're doing just now. But the suspicion is they'd actually be kind of happy with that.
    As someone with zero knowledge of Scottish politics I'd be really interested to know why John Swinney is so disliked. On the very few times he ever troubles the news I'm England he always sounds reasonably competent and reassuring. Maybe I just think that because he looks like one of my lovely ex colleagues.
    He looks very much like what he is, a mild mannered gradualist which doesn’t really suit the tenor of the times. The Indy ultras hate him for not getting independence NOW (despite themselves being unable to articulate how that would happen), Unionists rage against him like they’ve done for every leader of the SNP (though less than a week ago some of them were predicting/fearing that the Swinney-led SNP would win the recent by election handsomely).
    Thanks that's really helpful. As something of a mild mannered gradualist myself that might explain why I couldn't immediately understand the dislike.
  • eekeek Posts: 30,296

    carnforth said:

    Pagan2 said:

    carnforth said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Dopermean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    See one thing that annoys me, I have built up a pension pot just over 200k over the years by forgoing money from my wages.

    Currently my bills however are 21144 a year before food , clothing , entertainment

    not much I can do to reduce them

    I suspect when I retire and get a state pension and a non index linked annuity of about 11k which is what they are predicting I can get....well I am thinking I am a fool for saving that money as I am not likely going to be any better off for doing so than someone who put away nothing over the years, indeed possibly worse off as they will probably be eligible for benefits I wont get like free prescriptions etc.

    I think you'd be much better off if instead of a pension pot you had a house, which shows everything wrong with this country.

    Whats the point in putting away 200k to get an annuity which will then be spent on rent?
    You don't have to get an annuity.
    But... assuming you're over 55 pagan2, spunk the lot in lump sum and drawdown having fun then go on pension credit and housing benefit.. it makes sense
    I am sure there will be a rule somewhere about depriving yourself of income
    If you use the proceeds to buy a property, and then equity release it, probably not.
    I doubt even if I drewdown the lot it still wouldn't be enough for a house
    I hear Hull is nice.
    "Oxford's a right dump!"
    The City of Screaming Tyres. Certain parts definitely are a dump.

    However, Hull has little to recommend it. Try Beverley.
    It's got the Deep and a Premier Inn.

    The fact you recommend Beverley says a fair bit about you albeit understandably if you live in the area.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 5,054
    edited June 10
    eek said:

    carnforth said:

    Pagan2 said:

    carnforth said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Dopermean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    See one thing that annoys me, I have built up a pension pot just over 200k over the years by forgoing money from my wages.

    Currently my bills however are 21144 a year before food , clothing , entertainment

    not much I can do to reduce them

    I suspect when I retire and get a state pension and a non index linked annuity of about 11k which is what they are predicting I can get....well I am thinking I am a fool for saving that money as I am not likely going to be any better off for doing so than someone who put away nothing over the years, indeed possibly worse off as they will probably be eligible for benefits I wont get like free prescriptions etc.

    I think you'd be much better off if instead of a pension pot you had a house, which shows everything wrong with this country.

    Whats the point in putting away 200k to get an annuity which will then be spent on rent?
    You don't have to get an annuity.
    But... assuming you're over 55 pagan2, spunk the lot in lump sum and drawdown having fun then go on pension credit and housing benefit.. it makes sense
    I am sure there will be a rule somewhere about depriving yourself of income
    If you use the proceeds to buy a property, and then equity release it, probably not.
    I doubt even if I drewdown the lot it still wouldn't be enough for a house
    I hear Hull is nice.
    "Oxford's a right dump!"
    The City of Screaming Tyres. Certain parts definitely are a dump.

    However, Hull has little to recommend it. Try Beverley.
    It's got the Deep and a Premier Inn.

    The fact you recommend Beverley says a fair bit about you albeit understandably if you live in the area.
    Uh oh, what have I revealed?

    I live in the West Riding, albeit in a bit that some cretin renamed as South Yorkshire. Definitely somewhere on the cheaper side of things
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,597
    edited June 10
    Look what happened to the Democrat vote in California in 2024 compared to 2020.

    2024: 9,276,179 votes
    2020: 11,110,639 votes

    17% drop.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_States_presidential_election_in_California
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidential_election_in_California
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,968
    Pagan2 said:

    eek said:

    Pagan2 said:

    eek said:

    Pagan2 said:

    carnforth said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Dopermean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    See one thing that annoys me, I have built up a pension pot just over 200k over the years by forgoing money from my wages.

    Currently my bills however are 21144 a year before food , clothing , entertainment

    not much I can do to reduce them

    I suspect when I retire and get a state pension and a non index linked annuity of about 11k which is what they are predicting I can get....well I am thinking I am a fool for saving that money as I am not likely going to be any better off for doing so than someone who put away nothing over the years, indeed possibly worse off as they will probably be eligible for benefits I wont get like free prescriptions etc.

    I think you'd be much better off if instead of a pension pot you had a house, which shows everything wrong with this country.

    Whats the point in putting away 200k to get an annuity which will then be spent on rent?
    You don't have to get an annuity.
    But... assuming you're over 55 pagan2, spunk the lot in lump sum and drawdown having fun then go on pension credit and housing benefit.. it makes sense
    I am sure there will be a rule somewhere about depriving yourself of income
    If you use the proceeds to buy a property, and then equity release it, probably not.
    I doubt even if I drewdown the lot it still wouldn't be enough for a house
    £80,000 will get you a 2 bed terrace in Darlington that I would happily BTL.

    Hit the villages in county durham and it will be less than that.

    Separately we drove through North Cumbria on Sunday (heading slowly to Ambleside from Glasgow) and there were some very acceptable houses for £200,000 ish. and a 8 bedroom farm house that was tempting for £350,000 if it wasn't for a place in Llanfairfechan I'm actually really tempted to buy for it's sea front location).
    Yes but can't move currently as have to look after my father
    Sadly the day will come when that isn't necessary. At which point if you haven't got other ties, move North it's actually rather nice..
    I have other ties here though and be too old to move by then, indeed I suspect it more likely my father attends my funeral than me his. Sadly he is ridiculously healthy just no longer has a mind
    It is also a nice place to live it has to be said and somewhere I feel worth inviting guests. I think my spare room has been occupied for at least 6 months every year since I moved. Had all my adopted daughters over, my son and some friends from south africa and america
  • eekeek Posts: 30,296

    eek said:

    carnforth said:

    Pagan2 said:

    carnforth said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Dopermean said:

    Pagan2 said:

    See one thing that annoys me, I have built up a pension pot just over 200k over the years by forgoing money from my wages.

    Currently my bills however are 21144 a year before food , clothing , entertainment

    not much I can do to reduce them

    I suspect when I retire and get a state pension and a non index linked annuity of about 11k which is what they are predicting I can get....well I am thinking I am a fool for saving that money as I am not likely going to be any better off for doing so than someone who put away nothing over the years, indeed possibly worse off as they will probably be eligible for benefits I wont get like free prescriptions etc.

    I think you'd be much better off if instead of a pension pot you had a house, which shows everything wrong with this country.

    Whats the point in putting away 200k to get an annuity which will then be spent on rent?
    You don't have to get an annuity.
    But... assuming you're over 55 pagan2, spunk the lot in lump sum and drawdown having fun then go on pension credit and housing benefit.. it makes sense
    I am sure there will be a rule somewhere about depriving yourself of income
    If you use the proceeds to buy a property, and then equity release it, probably not.
    I doubt even if I drewdown the lot it still wouldn't be enough for a house
    I hear Hull is nice.
    "Oxford's a right dump!"
    The City of Screaming Tyres. Certain parts definitely are a dump.

    However, Hull has little to recommend it. Try Beverley.
    It's got the Deep and a Premier Inn.

    The fact you recommend Beverley says a fair bit about you albeit understandably if you live in the area.
    Uh oh, what have I revealed?

    I live in the West Riding, albeit in a bit that some cretin renamed as South Yorkshire. Definitely somewhere on the cheaper side of things
    I suspect over time I've revealed exactly who I am to anyone bothered to work it out but it really doesn't matter.

    Reality is if you spend enough time anywhere online the little bits of detail you reveal will allow people to identify you no matter how much you try to keep things quiet.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,970
    Stereodog said:

    Stereodog said:

    fitalass said:

    Herald - " Senior SNP figures held a secret meeting on Monday night to discuss removing John Swinney as party leader, The Herald has learned, following last week’s defeat in the Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse by-election.

    One of the 25 attendees said the First Minister had two weeks to come up with a new strategy on independence — or risk facing a leadership challenge at the SNP conference in October.

    They warned there could be a "clear out” in the internal elections, with challenges for key positions including depute leader and national secretary."

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/25229565.snp-rebels-bid-oust-swinney-by-election-defeat/

    Piss funny. “We’d be doing a lot better if we had a new plan to offer on independence”

    No, that’s what your hardline members want. What your voters - especially former voters - want is for you to fix schools, hospitals, councils, transport.

    What’s the proposal? I can’t see a dentist. Ah well we have this plan for independence in 10 years.
    It's pretty much irrelevant anyway because Swinney wouldn't know what an independence strategy was if it hit him in the face. He's the political equivalent of a cricket nightwatchman, except there's no obvious big hitter waiting their turn.
    Wait a minute, I’m sure I read on PB that Kate Forbes was just the gal to get the voters flocking back.
    Of a fairly short list Forbes probably tops out as about the only real alternative to Swinney. Whether that changes the SNP trajectory or not is a different question, but seems quite reasonable that one should look at the headline Yes figures in the polls and then look at the SNP's polling and conclude that something's gone awry somewhere and Swinney isn't the person who's going to turn it all round.

    If they want to bleed out slowly, probably still be largest party in Holyrood 2026 but nowhere near a majority which leaves them essentially at the mercy of the other parties anyway, then they should definitely keep doing what they're doing just now. But the suspicion is they'd actually be kind of happy with that.
    As someone with zero knowledge of Scottish politics I'd be really interested to know why John Swinney is so disliked. On the very few times he ever troubles the news I'm England he always sounds reasonably competent and reassuring. Maybe I just think that because he looks like one of my lovely ex colleagues.
    He looks very much like what he is, a mild mannered gradualist which doesn’t really suit the tenor of the times. The Indy ultras hate him for not getting independence NOW (despite themselves being unable to articulate how that would happen), Unionists rage against him like they’ve done for every leader of the SNP (though less than a week ago some of them were predicting/fearing that the Swinney-led SNP would win the recent by election handsomely).
    Thanks that's really helpful. As something of a mild mannered gradualist myself that might explain why I couldn't immediately understand the dislike.
    The Hamilton result was really quite odd, has unsettled the narrative that was developing around the SNP. I don't think they should panic though - give the younger politicians another year or two before finding the right person, even if that means a lacklustre performance at the election.

    The Holyrood system means you can afford a rearguard action without risking wipeout.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,597
    Renewables are providing just 5% of energy atm.

    https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk
  • eekeek Posts: 30,296
    Andy_JS said:

    Renewables are providing just 5% of energy atm.

    https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk

    I suspect 4am tomorrow morning the CCGT figure will tell us how much extra baseline power we need from CCGT or nuclear..
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 10,970
    Andy_JS said:

    Renewables are providing just 5% of energy atm.

    https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk

    Lucky it's nearly midnight and consumption has dropped off. Happily, the Europeans are sending us 6GW to help keep the price down.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,119
    Stereodog said:

    fitalass said:

    Herald - " Senior SNP figures held a secret meeting on Monday night to discuss removing John Swinney as party leader, The Herald has learned, following last week’s defeat in the Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse by-election.

    One of the 25 attendees said the First Minister had two weeks to come up with a new strategy on independence — or risk facing a leadership challenge at the SNP conference in October.

    They warned there could be a "clear out” in the internal elections, with challenges for key positions including depute leader and national secretary."

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/25229565.snp-rebels-bid-oust-swinney-by-election-defeat/

    Piss funny. “We’d be doing a lot better if we had a new plan to offer on independence”

    No, that’s what your hardline members want. What your voters - especially former voters - want is for you to fix schools, hospitals, councils, transport.

    What’s the proposal? I can’t see a dentist. Ah well we have this plan for independence in 10 years.
    It's pretty much irrelevant anyway because Swinney wouldn't know what an independence strategy was if it hit him in the face. He's the political equivalent of a cricket nightwatchman, except there's no obvious big hitter waiting their turn.
    Wait a minute, I’m sure I read on PB that Kate Forbes was just the gal to get the voters flocking back.
    Of a fairly short list Forbes probably tops out as about the only real alternative to Swinney. Whether that changes the SNP trajectory or not is a different question, but seems quite reasonable that one should look at the headline Yes figures in the polls and then look at the SNP's polling and conclude that something's gone awry somewhere and Swinney isn't the person who's going to turn it all round.

    If they want to bleed out slowly, probably still be largest party in Holyrood 2026 but nowhere near a majority which leaves them essentially at the mercy of the other parties anyway, then they should definitely keep doing what they're doing just now. But the suspicion is they'd actually be kind of happy with that.
    As someone with zero knowledge of Scottish politics I'd be really interested to know why John Swinney is so disliked. On the very few times he ever troubles the news I'm England he always sounds reasonably competent and reassuring. Maybe I just think that because he looks like one of my lovely ex colleagues.
    I quite like John Swinney. He's polite, which is a good thing in my book. Nevertheless he leads a government and party that has been in power too long and is completely out of ideas. Given Swinney himself has been there since the ice age, and was also the fallback leader who wasn't a great success the first time in 2000, he's kind of the problem...

  • eekeek Posts: 30,296
    Eabhal said:

    Stereodog said:

    Stereodog said:

    fitalass said:

    Herald - " Senior SNP figures held a secret meeting on Monday night to discuss removing John Swinney as party leader, The Herald has learned, following last week’s defeat in the Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse by-election.

    One of the 25 attendees said the First Minister had two weeks to come up with a new strategy on independence — or risk facing a leadership challenge at the SNP conference in October.

    They warned there could be a "clear out” in the internal elections, with challenges for key positions including depute leader and national secretary."

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/25229565.snp-rebels-bid-oust-swinney-by-election-defeat/

    Piss funny. “We’d be doing a lot better if we had a new plan to offer on independence”

    No, that’s what your hardline members want. What your voters - especially former voters - want is for you to fix schools, hospitals, councils, transport.

    What’s the proposal? I can’t see a dentist. Ah well we have this plan for independence in 10 years.
    It's pretty much irrelevant anyway because Swinney wouldn't know what an independence strategy was if it hit him in the face. He's the political equivalent of a cricket nightwatchman, except there's no obvious big hitter waiting their turn.
    Wait a minute, I’m sure I read on PB that Kate Forbes was just the gal to get the voters flocking back.
    Of a fairly short list Forbes probably tops out as about the only real alternative to Swinney. Whether that changes the SNP trajectory or not is a different question, but seems quite reasonable that one should look at the headline Yes figures in the polls and then look at the SNP's polling and conclude that something's gone awry somewhere and Swinney isn't the person who's going to turn it all round.

    If they want to bleed out slowly, probably still be largest party in Holyrood 2026 but nowhere near a majority which leaves them essentially at the mercy of the other parties anyway, then they should definitely keep doing what they're doing just now. But the suspicion is they'd actually be kind of happy with that.
    As someone with zero knowledge of Scottish politics I'd be really interested to know why John Swinney is so disliked. On the very few times he ever troubles the news I'm England he always sounds reasonably competent and reassuring. Maybe I just think that because he looks like one of my lovely ex colleagues.
    He looks very much like what he is, a mild mannered gradualist which doesn’t really suit the tenor of the times. The Indy ultras hate him for not getting independence NOW (despite themselves being unable to articulate how that would happen), Unionists rage against him like they’ve done for every leader of the SNP (though less than a week ago some of them were predicting/fearing that the Swinney-led SNP would win the recent by election handsomely).
    Thanks that's really helpful. As something of a mild mannered gradualist myself that might explain why I couldn't immediately understand the dislike.
    The Hamilton result was really quite odd, has unsettled the narrative that was developing around the SNP. I don't think they should panic though - give the younger politicians another year or two before finding the right person, even if that means a lacklustre performance at the election.

    The Holyrood system means you can afford a rearguard action without risking wipeout.
    Downside is the Holyrood system is going to create an unworkable mess next year...
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,597
    "Beards and microbes: what the evidence shows

    Beards have long attracted suspicion, sometimes seen as stylish, sometimes as unsanitary. But how dirty are they, really?"

    https://theconversation.com/beards-and-microbes-what-the-evidence-shows-256917
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,542
    Andy_JS said:

    Look what happened to the Democrat vote in California in 2024 compared to 2020.

    2024: 9,276,179 votes
    2020: 11,110,639 votes

    17% drop.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_States_presidential_election_in_California
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidential_election_in_California

    Turnout in 2024: 60%
    Turnout in 2020: 71%
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,968
    Andy_JS said:

    "Beards and microbes: what the evidence shows

    Beards have long attracted suspicion, sometimes seen as stylish, sometimes as unsanitary. But how dirty are they, really?"

    https://theconversation.com/beards-and-microbes-what-the-evidence-shows-256917

    I pointed out today in a team call to our product manager that he was the only one of seven of us that didn't have a beard so how could we trust him, I also mentioned his shaved head was a bit too shiny
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,597

    Andy_JS said:

    Look what happened to the Democrat vote in California in 2024 compared to 2020.

    2024: 9,276,179 votes
    2020: 11,110,639 votes

    17% drop.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_States_presidential_election_in_California
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidential_election_in_California

    Turnout in 2024: 60%
    Turnout in 2020: 71%
    Interesting. Incidentally, Alan Whicker made this documentary programme in 1980 implying that California was the best place in the world to live at that time, which was probably true.

    "California: Nothing is Utopia, This Comes Pretty Close (1980) Whicker's World"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9TWt3a_fBM
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,968
    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Look what happened to the Democrat vote in California in 2024 compared to 2020.

    2024: 9,276,179 votes
    2020: 11,110,639 votes

    17% drop.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_States_presidential_election_in_California
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidential_election_in_California

    Turnout in 2024: 60%
    Turnout in 2020: 71%
    Interesting. Incidentally, Alan Whicker made this documentary programme in 1980 implying that California was the best place in the world to live at that time, which was probably true.

    "California: Nothing is Utopia, This Comes Pretty Close (1980) Whicker's World"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9TWt3a_fBM
    I would suspect where you live and how good it is depends on your income level
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,827
    edited June 10
    Pagan2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    About the same cost as Ajax, which has provided a fraction of the capability.

    Seoul and Warsaw are finalizing a massive deal worth nearly $6 billion for 180 K2 tanks — some of which will be assembled directly in Poland.

    This deal is, de facto, a farewell to Soviet-era weaponry. Poland is making a full transition to Western and Asian systems. It’s becoming NATO's armored fortress, starting to assemble advanced tanks and strengthening its sovereignty and influence.

    https://x.com/nexta_tv/status/1932424775852261750

    Erm how effective did you expect a bleach based cleaning product to be at defeating tanks exactly?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_Ajax
    https://www.army.mod.uk/learn-and-explore/equipment/combat-vehicles/ajax/
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,101
    Nigelb said:

    About the same cost as Ajax, which has provided a fraction of the capability.

    Seoul and Warsaw are finalizing a massive deal worth nearly $6 billion for 180 K2 tanks — some of which will be assembled directly in Poland.

    This deal is, de facto, a farewell to Soviet-era weaponry. Poland is making a full transition to Western and Asian systems. It’s becoming NATO's armored fortress, starting to assemble advanced tanks and strengthening its sovereignty and influence.

    https://x.com/nexta_tv/status/1932424775852261750

    Can't see Putin's museum pieces faring well against those new Korean tanks.

    Although the big question is how well they do against drones.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,081
    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Look what happened to the Democrat vote in California in 2024 compared to 2020.

    2024: 9,276,179 votes
    2020: 11,110,639 votes

    17% drop.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_States_presidential_election_in_California
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidential_election_in_California

    Turnout in 2024: 60%
    Turnout in 2020: 71%
    Interesting. Incidentally, Alan Whicker made this documentary programme in 1980 implying that California was the best place in the world to live at that time, which was probably true.

    "California: Nothing is Utopia, This Comes Pretty Close (1980) Whicker's World"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9TWt3a_fBM
    I would suspect where you live and how good it is depends on your income level
    Even if you are poor in California you get the sunshine
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,968
    viewcode said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    About the same cost as Ajax, which has provided a fraction of the capability.

    Seoul and Warsaw are finalizing a massive deal worth nearly $6 billion for 180 K2 tanks — some of which will be assembled directly in Poland.

    This deal is, de facto, a farewell to Soviet-era weaponry. Poland is making a full transition to Western and Asian systems. It’s becoming NATO's armored fortress, starting to assemble advanced tanks and strengthening its sovereignty and influence.

    https://x.com/nexta_tv/status/1932424775852261750

    Erm how effective did you expect a bleach based cleaning product to be at defeating tanks exactly?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_Ajax
    I was extracting a little micturation
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,081
    FF43 said:

    Stereodog said:

    fitalass said:

    Herald - " Senior SNP figures held a secret meeting on Monday night to discuss removing John Swinney as party leader, The Herald has learned, following last week’s defeat in the Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse by-election.

    One of the 25 attendees said the First Minister had two weeks to come up with a new strategy on independence — or risk facing a leadership challenge at the SNP conference in October.

    They warned there could be a "clear out” in the internal elections, with challenges for key positions including depute leader and national secretary."

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/25229565.snp-rebels-bid-oust-swinney-by-election-defeat/

    Piss funny. “We’d be doing a lot better if we had a new plan to offer on independence”

    No, that’s what your hardline members want. What your voters - especially former voters - want is for you to fix schools, hospitals, councils, transport.

    What’s the proposal? I can’t see a dentist. Ah well we have this plan for independence in 10 years.
    It's pretty much irrelevant anyway because Swinney wouldn't know what an independence strategy was if it hit him in the face. He's the political equivalent of a cricket nightwatchman, except there's no obvious big hitter waiting their turn.
    Wait a minute, I’m sure I read on PB that Kate Forbes was just the gal to get the voters flocking back.
    Of a fairly short list Forbes probably tops out as about the only real alternative to Swinney. Whether that changes the SNP trajectory or not is a different question, but seems quite reasonable that one should look at the headline Yes figures in the polls and then look at the SNP's polling and conclude that something's gone awry somewhere and Swinney isn't the person who's going to turn it all round.

    If they want to bleed out slowly, probably still be largest party in Holyrood 2026 but nowhere near a majority which leaves them essentially at the mercy of the other parties anyway, then they should definitely keep doing what they're doing just now. But the suspicion is they'd actually be kind of happy with that.
    As someone with zero knowledge of Scottish politics I'd be really interested to know why John Swinney is so disliked. On the very few times he ever troubles the news I'm England he always sounds reasonably competent and reassuring. Maybe I just think that because he looks like one of my lovely ex colleagues.
    I quite like John Swinney. He's polite, which is a good thing in my book. Nevertheless he leads a government and party that has been in power too long and is completely out of ideas. Given Swinney himself has been there since the ice age, and was also the fallback leader who wasn't a great success the first time in 2000, he's kind of the problem...

    He is good for Scottish Unionists though as he clearly will do sod all to really push independence, is focused on the day job and will probably stay in office next year as FM but with an SNP Minority in a Unionist majority Holyrood
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,968
    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Look what happened to the Democrat vote in California in 2024 compared to 2020.

    2024: 9,276,179 votes
    2020: 11,110,639 votes

    17% drop.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_States_presidential_election_in_California
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidential_election_in_California

    Turnout in 2024: 60%
    Turnout in 2020: 71%
    Interesting. Incidentally, Alan Whicker made this documentary programme in 1980 implying that California was the best place in the world to live at that time, which was probably true.

    "California: Nothing is Utopia, This Comes Pretty Close (1980) Whicker's World"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9TWt3a_fBM
    I would suspect where you live and how good it is depends on your income level
    Even if you are poor in California you get the sunshine
    Hot sunshine when you are sweating a couple of jobs is not a thing of joy. Its only if you can laze in it
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,081
    edited June 10
    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Look what happened to the Democrat vote in California in 2024 compared to 2020.

    2024: 9,276,179 votes
    2020: 11,110,639 votes

    17% drop.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_States_presidential_election_in_California
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidential_election_in_California

    Turnout in 2024: 60%
    Turnout in 2020: 71%
    Interesting. Incidentally, Alan Whicker made this documentary programme in 1980 implying that California was the best place in the world to live at that time, which was probably true.

    "California: Nothing is Utopia, This Comes Pretty Close (1980) Whicker's World"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9TWt3a_fBM
    I would suspect where you live and how good it is depends on your income level
    Even if you are poor in California you get the sunshine
    Hot sunshine when you are sweating a couple of jobs is not a thing of joy. Its only if you can laze in it
    California heat isn't Middle East heat or even Texas or Greek heat in summer but significantly cooler yet the sun is still there all year round even in winter, plus the Ocean is always nearby
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,316
    edited June 10

    So Dave (pbuh) and George think Robert Jenrick is the man to save the Tories.

    Is the Conservative Party at the "Take this arsenic- yes it's toxic, but it just might cure your cancer" stage?
    Remember Jenrick was pure Cameroon, perhaps his descent is performative.

    Totally unrelated....

    🍷🍽️ Busy day in Mayfair, my spies tell me.

    Hear David Cameron, George Osborne and Deripaska’s old mate Lord Barker lunching Robert Jenrick

    Only to find Nigel Farage, Nick Candy and Bear Grylls at a nearby table.

    Jacob Rees Mogg also in the same restaurant

    Awks!


    https://x.com/MrHarryCole/status/1932505206752743533
    Is Bear Grylls a moon howler too?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 128,081
    edited June 10

    fitalass said:

    Herald - " Senior SNP figures held a secret meeting on Monday night to discuss removing John Swinney as party leader, The Herald has learned, following last week’s defeat in the Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse by-election.

    One of the 25 attendees said the First Minister had two weeks to come up with a new strategy on independence — or risk facing a leadership challenge at the SNP conference in October.

    They warned there could be a "clear out” in the internal elections, with challenges for key positions including depute leader and national secretary."

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/25229565.snp-rebels-bid-oust-swinney-by-election-defeat/

    Piss funny. “We’d be doing a lot better if we had a new plan to offer on independence”

    No, that’s what your hardline members want. What your voters - especially former voters - want is for you to fix schools, hospitals, councils, transport.

    What’s the proposal? I can’t see a dentist. Ah well we have this plan for independence in 10 years.
    It's pretty much irrelevant anyway because Swinney wouldn't know what an independence strategy was if it hit him in the face. He's the political equivalent of a cricket nightwatchman, except there's no obvious big hitter waiting their turn.
    Wait a minute, I’m sure I read on PB that Kate Forbes was just the gal to get the voters flocking back.

    Kate Forbes is anti gay marriage and personally anti abortion and doesn't believe trans women are women and on social issues beyond immigration even more conservative than Farage as well as being a relative fiscal conservative in the SNP.

    If she became SNP FM arguably a Labour run UK would be better for left liberal 'progressive' Scots than an SNP run independent Scotland
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,597
    edited June 10
    Interesting article about Britain and France by Dr Anthony Daniels.

    "Living between France and Britain, I am struck both by how different and how similar they are, the differences obvious and the similarities underlying. Chief among the underlying similarities is the imperative need for, and the simultaneous complete impossibility of, reform.
    Both countries live well beyond their means and have done so for years. They have large deficits of almost every conceivable type. They have deindustrialized and maintain their populations’ standard of living, for the moment, by means of cheap imports and borrowing, not for investment but for current consumption. "

    https://www.takimag.com/article/a-shared-plight/
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,912

    So Dave (pbuh) and George think Robert Jenrick is the man to save the Tories.

    Is the Conservative Party at the "Take this arsenic- yes it's toxic, but it just might cure your cancer" stage?
    Remember Jenrick was pure Cameroon, perhaps his descent is performative.

    Totally unrelated....

    🍷🍽️ Busy day in Mayfair, my spies tell me.

    Hear David Cameron, George Osborne and Deripaska’s old mate Lord Barker lunching Robert Jenrick

    Only to find Nigel Farage, Nick Candy and Bear Grylls at a nearby table.

    Jacob Rees Mogg also in the same restaurant

    Awks!


    https://x.com/MrHarryCole/status/1932505206752743533
    Is Bear Grylls a moon howler too?
    Yes.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/features/bear-grylls-russell-brand-baptism-b2542225.html
  • eekeek Posts: 30,296
    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Beards and microbes: what the evidence shows

    Beards have long attracted suspicion, sometimes seen as stylish, sometimes as unsanitary. But how dirty are they, really?"

    https://theconversation.com/beards-and-microbes-what-the-evidence-shows-256917

    I pointed out today in a team call to our product manager that he was the only one of seven of us that didn't have a beard so how could we trust him, I also mentioned his shaved head was a bit too shiny
    As someone who is clean shaven and very little hair up top I agree with your viewpoint.

    Never met a product manager I would trust to support my viewpoint of don't do that it's f***ing stupid idea which eventually after wasting £x00,000 I would be proven right.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 11,968
    edited June 10
    eek said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Beards and microbes: what the evidence shows

    Beards have long attracted suspicion, sometimes seen as stylish, sometimes as unsanitary. But how dirty are they, really?"

    https://theconversation.com/beards-and-microbes-what-the-evidence-shows-256917

    I pointed out today in a team call to our product manager that he was the only one of seven of us that didn't have a beard so how could we trust him, I also mentioned his shaved head was a bit too shiny
    As someone who is clean shaven and very little hair up top I agree with your viewpoint.

    Never met a product manager I would trust to support my viewpoint of don't do that it's f***ing stupid idea which eventually after wasting £x00,000 I would be proven right.
    He was actually a little stumped the other day as we have access to the prod database....we said to him all this feedback you claim to be getting we can see that the beta customers aren't using the app where is it coming from?


    (this in context of we didnt build the initial front end of it and all consider it clunky)
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,305
    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Look what happened to the Democrat vote in California in 2024 compared to 2020.

    2024: 9,276,179 votes
    2020: 11,110,639 votes

    17% drop.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_States_presidential_election_in_California
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidential_election_in_California

    Turnout in 2024: 60%
    Turnout in 2020: 71%
    Interesting. Incidentally, Alan Whicker made this documentary programme in 1980 implying that California was the best place in the world to live at that time, which was probably true.

    "California: Nothing is Utopia, This Comes Pretty Close (1980) Whicker's World"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9TWt3a_fBM
    I would suspect where you live and how good it is depends on your income level
    Even if you are poor in California you get the sunshine
    As they say to sunstruck tourists in the carribean: you can't eat sunshine.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,731
    viewcode said:

    Roger said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    viewcode said:

    tlg86 said:

    Another reverse ferret. This time by Simone Biles:

    https://x.com/Simone_Biles/status/1932470954610901259

    Never explain, never apologise. Twitter people do not forget not forgive.

    I think she cares more about what sponsors think than Twitter people though.
    She's just a decent human being.
    Unlike those giving her crap.
    I have no time at all for people who think trans athletes, well let’s be honest trans women, should be allowed to compete in women’s sports. Sorry, but I think the advantages of being born male and gone through puberty with all that that entails leads to bigger, stronger people. You can take all the hormones and hormone blockers you like in later life - it won’t shrink your arms, legs and feet.
    Read Biles' tweets.
    All she's asking is that they be treated as human beings. Those giving her shit just want trans folk to disappear.

    You're entitled to choose your side.
    I got an Uber the other day with a very obvious man dressed up as a woman. So masculine and large that it would be difficult to describe him as trans. Though I believe in live and let living I could understand how the experience might have been intimidating had I been a woman. It was slightly more odd as he/she only spoke French so it was difficult to judge how masculine the voice. Brave of Uber I suppose.
    I'm not sure how Uber works. Was this person the driver?
    Yes. Nice airport
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,175
    carnforth said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Look what happened to the Democrat vote in California in 2024 compared to 2020.

    2024: 9,276,179 votes
    2020: 11,110,639 votes

    17% drop.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_States_presidential_election_in_California
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidential_election_in_California

    Turnout in 2024: 60%
    Turnout in 2020: 71%
    Interesting. Incidentally, Alan Whicker made this documentary programme in 1980 implying that California was the best place in the world to live at that time, which was probably true.

    "California: Nothing is Utopia, This Comes Pretty Close (1980) Whicker's World"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9TWt3a_fBM
    I would suspect where you live and how good it is depends on your income level
    Even if you are poor in California you get the sunshine
    As they say to sunstruck tourists in the carribean: you can't eat sunshine.
    Southern California is very expensive with high taxes. My property tax is $80,000 per year. And my marginal income tax rate is above 50%. Services are merely m'eh. Although, one should note, it's probably a lot safer than in 1994: areas like Compton and Inglewood are now largely gentrified.

    The good weather and plentiful jobs attract lots of people who live in their cars or in broken down RVs. But that's a hard life too.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 66,260
    CBS Evening News

    @CBSEveningNews

    Military forces now outnumber demonstrators protesting federal immigration raids in Los Angeles after President Trump ordered 700 Marines to deploy alongside more than 4,000 National Guard troops – a move the Pentagon says is costing nearly $134 million.

    “There’s nothing for them to do,” Mayor Karen Bass tells CBS News
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,597
    "Fleeing South Africa
    The situation of South African “whites” is worse than Donald Trump's critics are willing to acknowledge.
    David Benatar" (£)

    https://quillette.com/2025/06/10/fleeing-south-africa-boer-trump/
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 6,305
    rcs1000 said:

    carnforth said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Look what happened to the Democrat vote in California in 2024 compared to 2020.

    2024: 9,276,179 votes
    2020: 11,110,639 votes

    17% drop.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_States_presidential_election_in_California
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidential_election_in_California

    Turnout in 2024: 60%
    Turnout in 2020: 71%
    Interesting. Incidentally, Alan Whicker made this documentary programme in 1980 implying that California was the best place in the world to live at that time, which was probably true.

    "California: Nothing is Utopia, This Comes Pretty Close (1980) Whicker's World"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9TWt3a_fBM
    I would suspect where you live and how good it is depends on your income level
    Even if you are poor in California you get the sunshine
    As they say to sunstruck tourists in the carribean: you can't eat sunshine.
    Southern California is very expensive with high taxes. My property tax is $80,000 per year. And my marginal income tax rate is above 50%. Services are merely m'eh. Although, one should note, it's probably a lot safer than in 1994: areas like Compton and Inglewood are now largely gentrified.

    The good weather and plentiful jobs attract lots of people who live in their cars or in broken down RVs. But that's a hard life too.
    Ouch! We don't know we're born with council tax. Can the elderly default and have it taken from their estate, or do they get turfed out?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 60,175
    Andy_JS said:

    "Fleeing South Africa
    The situation of South African “whites” is worse than Donald Trump's critics are willing to acknowledge.
    David Benatar" (£)

    https://quillette.com/2025/06/10/fleeing-south-africa-boer-trump/

    You hear very different views on this depending on who you talk to.

    My wife's sister - who lives in Jo'burg - has a view similar to the Quilette article.

    My COO's family - who are whites in Cape Town - have a very different view.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,597
    "Los Angeles rioters who burned American flags should be given an "automatic" one-year jail sentence, Donald Trump has told The New York Post."

    https://news.sky.com/story/los-angeles-live-immigration-protests-trump-newsom-national-guard-marines-13380863
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 35,597
    "Wimbledon line judges break their silence after being replaced by AI at the All England Club
    Hawk-Eye Live system was first rolled out at a Grand Slam at the 2020 US Open
    It means more than 300 line judges at SW19 are left uncertain over their future
    Chair umpire Richard Ings argued that 'nothing will hold back the tide of AI'
    By SAM LAWLEY

    Wimbledon line judges have had their 'love and passion ripped away', a chair umpire has revealed, after the All England Club announced plans to replace them with Artificial Intelligence from 2025.

    Immaculately dressed officials courtside at SW19 has been one of the quintessential sights of a British summer for 147 years but the tradition will now be consigned to history after Wednesday's shock decision."

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/tennis/article-13944629/Wimbledon-line-judges-England-Club-AI.html
  • vikvik Posts: 488
    Andy_JS said:

    "Los Angeles rioters who burned American flags should be given an "automatic" one-year jail sentence, Donald Trump has told The New York Post."

    https://news.sky.com/story/los-angeles-live-immigration-protests-trump-newsom-national-guard-marines-13380863

    Trump trying to goad liberals into exercising their 1st Amendment rights, protected by the Supreme Court under Texas v Johnson.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,343
    "California heat isn't Middle East heat or even Texas or Greek heat in summer but significantly cooler yet the sun is still there all year round even in winter, plus the Ocean is always nearby."

    Depends on where in California -- which includes Death Valley:
    "Death Valley is a desert valley in Eastern California, in the northern Mojave Desert, bordering the Great Basin Desert. It is thought to be the hottest place on Earth during summer.[3]

    Death Valley's Badwater Basin is the point of lowest elevation in North America, at 282 feet (86 m) below sea level.[1] It is 84.6 miles (136.2 km) east-southeast of Mount Whitney – the highest point in the contiguous United States, with an elevation of 14,505 feet (4,421 m).[4] On the afternoon of July 10, 1913, the United States Weather Bureau recorded a high temperature of 134 °F (56.7 °C) at Furnace Creek in Death Valley,[5] which stands as the highest ambient air temperature ever recorded on the surface of the Earth.[6] This reading, however, and several others taken in that period are disputed by some modern experts."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Valley
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,368
    Stereodog said:

    Stereodog said:

    fitalass said:

    Herald - " Senior SNP figures held a secret meeting on Monday night to discuss removing John Swinney as party leader, The Herald has learned, following last week’s defeat in the Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse by-election.

    One of the 25 attendees said the First Minister had two weeks to come up with a new strategy on independence — or risk facing a leadership challenge at the SNP conference in October.

    They warned there could be a "clear out” in the internal elections, with challenges for key positions including depute leader and national secretary."

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/25229565.snp-rebels-bid-oust-swinney-by-election-defeat/

    Piss funny. “We’d be doing a lot better if we had a new plan to offer on independence”

    No, that’s what your hardline members want. What your voters - especially former voters - want is for you to fix schools, hospitals, councils, transport.

    What’s the proposal? I can’t see a dentist. Ah well we have this plan for independence in 10 years.
    It's pretty much irrelevant anyway because Swinney wouldn't know what an independence strategy was if it hit him in the face. He's the political equivalent of a cricket nightwatchman, except there's no obvious big hitter waiting their turn.
    Wait a minute, I’m sure I read on PB that Kate Forbes was just the gal to get the voters flocking back.
    Of a fairly short list Forbes probably tops out as about the only real alternative to Swinney. Whether that changes the SNP trajectory or not is a different question, but seems quite reasonable that one should look at the headline Yes figures in the polls and then look at the SNP's polling and conclude that something's gone awry somewhere and Swinney isn't the person who's going to turn it all round.

    If they want to bleed out slowly, probably still be largest party in Holyrood 2026 but nowhere near a majority which leaves them essentially at the mercy of the other parties anyway, then they should definitely keep doing what they're doing just now. But the suspicion is they'd actually be kind of happy with that.
    As someone with zero knowledge of Scottish politics I'd be really interested to know why John Swinney is so disliked. On the very few times he ever troubles the news I'm England he always sounds reasonably competent and reassuring. Maybe I just think that because he looks like one of my lovely ex colleagues.
    He looks very much like what he is, a mild mannered gradualist which doesn’t really suit the tenor of the times. The Indy ultras hate him for not getting independence NOW (despite themselves being unable to articulate how that would happen), Unionists rage against him like they’ve done for every leader of the SNP (though less than a week ago some of them were predicting/fearing that the Swinney-led SNP would win the recent by election handsomely).
    Thanks that's really helpful. As something of a mild mannered gradualist myself that might explain why I couldn't immediately understand the dislike.
    Where have you been hiding for the last ten years?! Swinney and Sturgeon have been tight as ticks for years, he really has been Sturgeon's Norman Tebbit throughout her time as First Minister and beyond! The big clue was when he stepped in to become the unelected SNP leader and FM when Humza Yousaf resigned due to the coup after he ended the Bute House agreement. Mild mannered gradualist my behookie!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,240
    The Trump propaganda seems to be working.
    This result is absurd.

    Plurality believe the LA protestors are mostly violent
    https://x.com/USA_Polling/status/1932541822531682559
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,049
    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    A sense of humour can definitely run in the family.

    Last week, not long after my nan's funeral, my wife said that her choice of funeral song would be "This Girl Is On Fire".

    Today on the drive home the Love The Way You Lie played and after the line "Just gonna stand there and watch me burn" my daughter called out that's the song she wants playing at her funeral.

    Both suitable options but I'd have to go for a more classic song, Highway To Hell.

    Any choices here?

    Going in, the Guitar Coda from Hotel California

    Going out, Keep Right on Til the End of the Road.
    I am thinking that "Don't Fear the Reaper" by Blue Oyster Cult is the way to go.
    Don't let the Sun go down on me Elton and G Michael.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,752

    Scott_xP said:

    @thetimes

    A US federal court has issued a temporary restraining order limiting the deployment of troops in Los Angeles after Trump sent marines and the National Guard to the city.


    Meanwhile the Mad King is telling troops he is going to rename a bunch of bases back to the names of losers, I mean Confederates

    The troops have got guns. What has the court got?
    The legal authority to determine whether their deployment is lawful & constitutional.

    If that does not hold, the USA is become a banana republic and it's game over in that respect.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 941
    Seems sensible not to waste police time on issues that other agencies should deal with. Vagrancy (sometimes homelessness) has many contributory factors. There will be quite a few veterans in that group who deserve better treatment than is currently available.

    There will also be ex-prisoners released on a Friday afternoon with a few £ in their pocket when all the agencies to help them will be closed for the weekend.

    A 'bonfire' of Victorian criminal laws would be welcome. I'm sure there are those on PB with a few more suggestions.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,684
    One despairs.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,834

    One despairs.
    Why?

    What good does the current law do, either for the homeless person, society, or police resources? And can the problem be better tackled by other means and authorities than the police?

    I am tentatively in favour of these other changes: "These measures, which will be introduced through amendments to the Crime and Policing Bill, will include new offences of facilitating begging for gain and trespassing with the intention of committing a crime.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,312

    NEW THREAD

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,912
    fitalass said:

    Stereodog said:

    Stereodog said:

    fitalass said:

    Herald - " Senior SNP figures held a secret meeting on Monday night to discuss removing John Swinney as party leader, The Herald has learned, following last week’s defeat in the Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse by-election.

    One of the 25 attendees said the First Minister had two weeks to come up with a new strategy on independence — or risk facing a leadership challenge at the SNP conference in October.

    They warned there could be a "clear out” in the internal elections, with challenges for key positions including depute leader and national secretary."

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/25229565.snp-rebels-bid-oust-swinney-by-election-defeat/

    Piss funny. “We’d be doing a lot better if we had a new plan to offer on independence”

    No, that’s what your hardline members want. What your voters - especially former voters - want is for you to fix schools, hospitals, councils, transport.

    What’s the proposal? I can’t see a dentist. Ah well we have this plan for independence in 10 years.
    It's pretty much irrelevant anyway because Swinney wouldn't know what an independence strategy was if it hit him in the face. He's the political equivalent of a cricket nightwatchman, except there's no obvious big hitter waiting their turn.
    Wait a minute, I’m sure I read on PB that Kate Forbes was just the gal to get the voters flocking back.
    Of a fairly short list Forbes probably tops out as about the only real alternative to Swinney. Whether that changes the SNP trajectory or not is a different question, but seems quite reasonable that one should look at the headline Yes figures in the polls and then look at the SNP's polling and conclude that something's gone awry somewhere and Swinney isn't the person who's going to turn it all round.

    If they want to bleed out slowly, probably still be largest party in Holyrood 2026 but nowhere near a majority which leaves them essentially at the mercy of the other parties anyway, then they should definitely keep doing what they're doing just now. But the suspicion is they'd actually be kind of happy with that.
    As someone with zero knowledge of Scottish politics I'd be really interested to know why John Swinney is so disliked. On the very few times he ever troubles the news I'm England he always sounds reasonably competent and reassuring. Maybe I just think that because he looks like one of my lovely ex colleagues.
    He looks very much like what he is, a mild mannered gradualist which doesn’t really suit the tenor of the times. The Indy ultras hate him for not getting independence NOW (despite themselves being unable to articulate how that would happen), Unionists rage against him like they’ve done for every leader of the SNP (though less than a week ago some of them were predicting/fearing that the Swinney-led SNP would win the recent by election handsomely).
    Thanks that's really helpful. As something of a mild mannered gradualist myself that might explain why I couldn't immediately understand the dislike.
    Where have you been hiding for the last ten years?! Swinney and Sturgeon have been tight as ticks for years, he really has been Sturgeon's Norman Tebbit throughout her time as First Minister and beyond! The big clue was when he stepped in to become the unelected SNP leader and FM when Humza Yousaf resigned due to the coup after he ended the Bute House agreement. Mild mannered gradualist my behookie!
    Unionists, always much, much keener to comment on the EssEnnPee rather than the calbre of their own politicians.
    What’s your view of your own leader, Russell ‘In Liz We Trust’ Findlay?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,684

    fitalass said:

    Stereodog said:

    Stereodog said:

    fitalass said:

    Herald - " Senior SNP figures held a secret meeting on Monday night to discuss removing John Swinney as party leader, The Herald has learned, following last week’s defeat in the Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse by-election.

    One of the 25 attendees said the First Minister had two weeks to come up with a new strategy on independence — or risk facing a leadership challenge at the SNP conference in October.

    They warned there could be a "clear out” in the internal elections, with challenges for key positions including depute leader and national secretary."

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/25229565.snp-rebels-bid-oust-swinney-by-election-defeat/

    Piss funny. “We’d be doing a lot better if we had a new plan to offer on independence”

    No, that’s what your hardline members want. What your voters - especially former voters - want is for you to fix schools, hospitals, councils, transport.

    What’s the proposal? I can’t see a dentist. Ah well we have this plan for independence in 10 years.
    It's pretty much irrelevant anyway because Swinney wouldn't know what an independence strategy was if it hit him in the face. He's the political equivalent of a cricket nightwatchman, except there's no obvious big hitter waiting their turn.
    Wait a minute, I’m sure I read on PB that Kate Forbes was just the gal to get the voters flocking back.
    Of a fairly short list Forbes probably tops out as about the only real alternative to Swinney. Whether that changes the SNP trajectory or not is a different question, but seems quite reasonable that one should look at the headline Yes figures in the polls and then look at the SNP's polling and conclude that something's gone awry somewhere and Swinney isn't the person who's going to turn it all round.

    If they want to bleed out slowly, probably still be largest party in Holyrood 2026 but nowhere near a majority which leaves them essentially at the mercy of the other parties anyway, then they should definitely keep doing what they're doing just now. But the suspicion is they'd actually be kind of happy with that.
    As someone with zero knowledge of Scottish politics I'd be really interested to know why John Swinney is so disliked. On the very few times he ever troubles the news I'm England he always sounds reasonably competent and reassuring. Maybe I just think that because he looks like one of my lovely ex colleagues.
    He looks very much like what he is, a mild mannered gradualist which doesn’t really suit the tenor of the times. The Indy ultras hate him for not getting independence NOW (despite themselves being unable to articulate how that would happen), Unionists rage against him like they’ve done for every leader of the SNP (though less than a week ago some of them were predicting/fearing that the Swinney-led SNP would win the recent by election handsomely).
    Thanks that's really helpful. As something of a mild mannered gradualist myself that might explain why I couldn't immediately understand the dislike.
    Where have you been hiding for the last ten years?! Swinney and Sturgeon have been tight as ticks for years, he really has been Sturgeon's Norman Tebbit throughout her time as First Minister and beyond! The big clue was when he stepped in to become the unelected SNP leader and FM when Humza Yousaf resigned due to the coup after he ended the Bute House agreement. Mild mannered gradualist my behookie!
    Unionists, always much, much keener to comment on the EssEnnPee rather than the calbre of their own politicians.
    What’s your view of your own leader, Russell ‘In Liz We Trust’ Findlay?
    That's just Unionists is it?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,834
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Fleeing South Africa
    The situation of South African “whites” is worse than Donald Trump's critics are willing to acknowledge.
    David Benatar" (£)

    https://quillette.com/2025/06/10/fleeing-south-africa-boer-trump/

    You hear very different views on this depending on who you talk to.

    My wife's sister - who lives in Jo'burg - has a view similar to the Quilette article.

    My COO's family - who are whites in Cape Town - have a very different view.
    The South African government had a massive amount of international goodwill in the mid-nineties after the fall of apartheid. The ANC have slowly whittled that down. Some of the negativity has been overblown, but I have no doubt that it is not performing for its citizens. The energy crisis has been ongoing since 2007!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_energy_crisis

    The ANC need to go. They are corrupt, uncaring, and incompetent. But their does not lie with Zuma either...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,586
    Battlebus said:

    Seems sensible not to waste police time on issues that other agencies should deal with. Vagrancy (sometimes homelessness) has many contributory factors. There will be quite a few veterans in that group who deserve better treatment than is currently available.

    There will also be ex-prisoners released on a Friday afternoon with a few £ in their pocket when all the agencies to help them will be closed for the weekend.

    A 'bonfire' of Victorian criminal laws would be welcome. I'm sure there are those on PB with a few more suggestions.
    I expect this will prove to be about as wise a move as decriminalising shoplifting.

    Prepare for problem rough sleepers who can now never be moved on with court orders, and are a permanent blight of many of our town centres.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,586

    One despairs.
    Enshittification.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 10,182
    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Look what happened to the Democrat vote in California in 2024 compared to 2020.

    2024: 9,276,179 votes
    2020: 11,110,639 votes

    17% drop.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_States_presidential_election_in_California
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidential_election_in_California

    Turnout in 2024: 60%
    Turnout in 2020: 71%
    Interesting. Incidentally, Alan Whicker made this documentary programme in 1980 implying that California was the best place in the world to live at that time, which was probably true.

    "California: Nothing is Utopia, This Comes Pretty Close (1980) Whicker's World"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9TWt3a_fBM
    I would suspect where you live and how good it is depends on your income level
    Even if you are poor in California you get the sunshine
    If you are poor in California you live in the Inland Empire - too much sun and not enough water

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,912

    fitalass said:

    Stereodog said:

    Stereodog said:

    fitalass said:

    Herald - " Senior SNP figures held a secret meeting on Monday night to discuss removing John Swinney as party leader, The Herald has learned, following last week’s defeat in the Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse by-election.

    One of the 25 attendees said the First Minister had two weeks to come up with a new strategy on independence — or risk facing a leadership challenge at the SNP conference in October.

    They warned there could be a "clear out” in the internal elections, with challenges for key positions including depute leader and national secretary."

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/25229565.snp-rebels-bid-oust-swinney-by-election-defeat/

    Piss funny. “We’d be doing a lot better if we had a new plan to offer on independence”

    No, that’s what your hardline members want. What your voters - especially former voters - want is for you to fix schools, hospitals, councils, transport.

    What’s the proposal? I can’t see a dentist. Ah well we have this plan for independence in 10 years.
    It's pretty much irrelevant anyway because Swinney wouldn't know what an independence strategy was if it hit him in the face. He's the political equivalent of a cricket nightwatchman, except there's no obvious big hitter waiting their turn.
    Wait a minute, I’m sure I read on PB that Kate Forbes was just the gal to get the voters flocking back.
    Of a fairly short list Forbes probably tops out as about the only real alternative to Swinney. Whether that changes the SNP trajectory or not is a different question, but seems quite reasonable that one should look at the headline Yes figures in the polls and then look at the SNP's polling and conclude that something's gone awry somewhere and Swinney isn't the person who's going to turn it all round.

    If they want to bleed out slowly, probably still be largest party in Holyrood 2026 but nowhere near a majority which leaves them essentially at the mercy of the other parties anyway, then they should definitely keep doing what they're doing just now. But the suspicion is they'd actually be kind of happy with that.
    As someone with zero knowledge of Scottish politics I'd be really interested to know why John Swinney is so disliked. On the very few times he ever troubles the news I'm England he always sounds reasonably competent and reassuring. Maybe I just think that because he looks like one of my lovely ex colleagues.
    He looks very much like what he is, a mild mannered gradualist which doesn’t really suit the tenor of the times. The Indy ultras hate him for not getting independence NOW (despite themselves being unable to articulate how that would happen), Unionists rage against him like they’ve done for every leader of the SNP (though less than a week ago some of them were predicting/fearing that the Swinney-led SNP would win the recent by election handsomely).
    Thanks that's really helpful. As something of a mild mannered gradualist myself that might explain why I couldn't immediately understand the dislike.
    Where have you been hiding for the last ten years?! Swinney and Sturgeon have been tight as ticks for years, he really has been Sturgeon's Norman Tebbit throughout her time as First Minister and beyond! The big clue was when he stepped in to become the unelected SNP leader and FM when Humza Yousaf resigned due to the coup after he ended the Bute House agreement. Mild mannered gradualist my behookie!
    Unionists, always much, much keener to comment on the EssEnnPee rather than the calbre of their own politicians.
    What’s your view of your own leader, Russell ‘In Liz We Trust’ Findlay?
    That's just Unionists is it?
    Who suggested it was just Unionists, apart from you? At least unlike Unionists, for better or worse Indy supporters are willing to criticise their own party.
    What’s your view of your fellow Truss supporter Findlay?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,834

    Battlebus said:

    Seems sensible not to waste police time on issues that other agencies should deal with. Vagrancy (sometimes homelessness) has many contributory factors. There will be quite a few veterans in that group who deserve better treatment than is currently available.

    There will also be ex-prisoners released on a Friday afternoon with a few £ in their pocket when all the agencies to help them will be closed for the weekend.

    A 'bonfire' of Victorian criminal laws would be welcome. I'm sure there are those on PB with a few more suggestions.
    I expect this will prove to be about as wise a move as decriminalising shoplifting.

    Prepare for problem rough sleepers who can now never be moved on with court orders, and are a permanent blight of many of our town centres.
    According to the article, there were: "79 prosecutions and 59 convictions for offences related to rough sleeping in 2023, down from a peak of 1,050 and 810 respectively in 2011."

    Even if you take the 2011 figures, it hardly shows a problem of the scale you envisage.

    And I see your comparison with shoplifting to be rather crass. Shoplifting is very different from homelessness. You or I might, if we were to hit unfortunate times, end up homeless. We probably would not become shoplifters.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 941
    edited June 11

    Battlebus said:

    Seems sensible not to waste police time on issues that other agencies should deal with. Vagrancy (sometimes homelessness) has many contributory factors. There will be quite a few veterans in that group who deserve better treatment than is currently available.

    There will also be ex-prisoners released on a Friday afternoon with a few £ in their pocket when all the agencies to help them will be closed for the weekend.

    A 'bonfire' of Victorian criminal laws would be welcome. I'm sure there are those on PB with a few more suggestions.
    I expect this will prove to be about as wise a move as decriminalising shoplifting.

    Prepare for problem rough sleepers who can now never be moved on with court orders, and are a permanent blight of many of our town centres.
    Rough sleeping is more of a choice/necessity depending on your point of view. The Homelessness Reduction Act entitles rough sleepers to accommodation though central government (via your taxes) do not provide enough funding. Rough sleepers will have a range of issues - mental health, drugs, alcohol, escaping domestic violence. Fining people (or accommodating them in the few cells the police have) while giving them a criminal conviction is not a solution.

    Amazed that people think it is but perhaps you are just trolling.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,797
    Battlebus said:

    Battlebus said:

    Seems sensible not to waste police time on issues that other agencies should deal with. Vagrancy (sometimes homelessness) has many contributory factors. There will be quite a few veterans in that group who deserve better treatment than is currently available.

    There will also be ex-prisoners released on a Friday afternoon with a few £ in their pocket when all the agencies to help them will be closed for the weekend.

    A 'bonfire' of Victorian criminal laws would be welcome. I'm sure there are those on PB with a few more suggestions.
    I expect this will prove to be about as wise a move as decriminalising shoplifting.

    Prepare for problem rough sleepers who can now never be moved on with court orders, and are a permanent blight of many of our town centres.
    Rough sleeping is more of a choice/necessity depending on your point of view. The Homelessness Reduction Act entitles rough sleepers to accommodation though central government (via your taxes) do not provide enough funding. Rough sleepers will have a range of issues - mental health, drugs, alcohol, escaping domestic violence. Fining people (or accommodating them in the few cells the police have) while giving them a criminal conviction is not a solution.

    Amazed that people think it is but perhaps you are just trolling.
    America has recently recriminalised vagrancy, even in Dem places, so they can finally get rid of tent cities. We in the UK will probably now get those cities. London will decline further. Genius
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,586
    Battlebus said:

    Battlebus said:

    Seems sensible not to waste police time on issues that other agencies should deal with. Vagrancy (sometimes homelessness) has many contributory factors. There will be quite a few veterans in that group who deserve better treatment than is currently available.

    There will also be ex-prisoners released on a Friday afternoon with a few £ in their pocket when all the agencies to help them will be closed for the weekend.

    A 'bonfire' of Victorian criminal laws would be welcome. I'm sure there are those on PB with a few more suggestions.
    I expect this will prove to be about as wise a move as decriminalising shoplifting.

    Prepare for problem rough sleepers who can now never be moved on with court orders, and are a permanent blight of many of our town centres.
    Rough sleeping is more of a choice/necessity depending on your point of view. The Homelessness Reduction Act entitles rough sleepers to accommodation though central government (via your taxes) do not provide enough funding. Rough sleepers will have a range of issues - mental health, drugs, alcohol, escaping domestic violence. Fining people (or accommodating them in the few cells the police have) while giving them a criminal conviction is not a solution.

    Amazed that people think it is but perhaps you are just trolling.
    It's a tool to move very difficult individuals on. We had one in our town centre the year before last who was aggressive, addicted to substances and routinely abused passers-by, particularly women, and upset a lot of people. He had two tents near a park bench in a very public landmark area of the town and the area around them was littered with bottles, plastic bags and human waste. It was disgusting.

    Eventually, he was ordered to move via an order in the magistrates court and it was all cleaned up.

    Will that now be able to happen?

    I have my doubts, and I expect this to play out in towns up and down the country over the next 2-3 years.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 63,586

    Battlebus said:

    Seems sensible not to waste police time on issues that other agencies should deal with. Vagrancy (sometimes homelessness) has many contributory factors. There will be quite a few veterans in that group who deserve better treatment than is currently available.

    There will also be ex-prisoners released on a Friday afternoon with a few £ in their pocket when all the agencies to help them will be closed for the weekend.

    A 'bonfire' of Victorian criminal laws would be welcome. I'm sure there are those on PB with a few more suggestions.
    I expect this will prove to be about as wise a move as decriminalising shoplifting.

    Prepare for problem rough sleepers who can now never be moved on with court orders, and are a permanent blight of many of our town centres.
    According to the article, there were: "79 prosecutions and 59 convictions for offences related to rough sleeping in 2023, down from a peak of 1,050 and 810 respectively in 2011."

    Even if you take the 2011 figures, it hardly shows a problem of the scale you envisage.

    And I see your comparison with shoplifting to be rather crass. Shoplifting is very different from homelessness. You or I might, if we were to hit unfortunate times, end up homeless. We probably would not become shoplifters.
    Prosecutions are not a yardstick for the effectiveness or relevance of the law. It's a tool that's there when it needs to be to address a problem in the public realm.

    And, yes, we could end up homeless - but I still wouldn't expect that me living as a vagrant - sleeping as and where I chose, and in any condition i chose - should be acceptable with the public having no recourse on it.

    I'd expect there to be rules around this, and rightly so.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,834

    Battlebus said:

    Seems sensible not to waste police time on issues that other agencies should deal with. Vagrancy (sometimes homelessness) has many contributory factors. There will be quite a few veterans in that group who deserve better treatment than is currently available.

    There will also be ex-prisoners released on a Friday afternoon with a few £ in their pocket when all the agencies to help them will be closed for the weekend.

    A 'bonfire' of Victorian criminal laws would be welcome. I'm sure there are those on PB with a few more suggestions.
    I expect this will prove to be about as wise a move as decriminalising shoplifting.

    Prepare for problem rough sleepers who can now never be moved on with court orders, and are a permanent blight of many of our town centres.
    According to the article, there were: "79 prosecutions and 59 convictions for offences related to rough sleeping in 2023, down from a peak of 1,050 and 810 respectively in 2011."

    Even if you take the 2011 figures, it hardly shows a problem of the scale you envisage.

    And I see your comparison with shoplifting to be rather crass. Shoplifting is very different from homelessness. You or I might, if we were to hit unfortunate times, end up homeless. We probably would not become shoplifters.
    Prosecutions are not a yardstick for the effectiveness or relevance of the law. It's a tool that's there when it needs to be to address a problem in the public realm.

    And, yes, we could end up homeless - but I still wouldn't expect that me living as a vagrant - sleeping as and where I chose, and in any condition i chose - should be acceptable with the public having no recourse on it.

    I'd expect there to be rules around this, and rightly so.
    There probably are many other laws that cover the public harm caused by vagrancy. I might hazard a guess that that is why the number of prosecutions have declined.

    As an aside, do you favour the other changes?

    "These measures, which will be introduced through amendments to the Crime and Policing Bill, will include new offences of facilitating begging for gain and trespassing with the intention of committing a crime."
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,834

    Battlebus said:

    Battlebus said:

    Seems sensible not to waste police time on issues that other agencies should deal with. Vagrancy (sometimes homelessness) has many contributory factors. There will be quite a few veterans in that group who deserve better treatment than is currently available.

    There will also be ex-prisoners released on a Friday afternoon with a few £ in their pocket when all the agencies to help them will be closed for the weekend.

    A 'bonfire' of Victorian criminal laws would be welcome. I'm sure there are those on PB with a few more suggestions.
    I expect this will prove to be about as wise a move as decriminalising shoplifting.

    Prepare for problem rough sleepers who can now never be moved on with court orders, and are a permanent blight of many of our town centres.
    Rough sleeping is more of a choice/necessity depending on your point of view. The Homelessness Reduction Act entitles rough sleepers to accommodation though central government (via your taxes) do not provide enough funding. Rough sleepers will have a range of issues - mental health, drugs, alcohol, escaping domestic violence. Fining people (or accommodating them in the few cells the police have) while giving them a criminal conviction is not a solution.

    Amazed that people think it is but perhaps you are just trolling.
    It's a tool to move very difficult individuals on. We had one in our town centre the year before last who was aggressive, addicted to substances and routinely abused passers-by, particularly women, and upset a lot of people. He had two tents near a park bench in a very public landmark area of the town and the area around them was littered with bottles, plastic bags and human waste. It was disgusting.

    Eventually, he was ordered to move via an order in the magistrates court and it was all cleaned up.

    Will that now be able to happen?

    I have my doubts, and I expect this to play out in towns up and down the country over the next 2-3 years.
    Was he moved on via the vagrancy law, or by other laws that covered his aggressive behaviour and abuse?
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 941
    Some background on the VA (1824) Here is what MP's are being told about the Vagrancy Act and the other alternatives available. Whatever your view, we are still a nation of laws, and these are the tools the police and other authorities need to use in response to the reasons for vagrancy - which are different now from 1824.

    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7836/
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