politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Local By-Elections: January 22nd 2014 – Harry Hayfield
Comments
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Not too sure about that actually. It's also logical to half-believe in it. It works most of the time in many situations, but not all the time and not everywhere. It's not flawless, but it's pretty good. Democracy is also about pragmatism: getting the best possible system for a given situation (e.g. FPTP).Indigo said:
Your sounding desperate, and illogical.SquareRoot said:
LOL AV isn't the death penalty.. Funny how there is so much talk of the death penalty in Amerca and the screams at the injustice of it (and rightly so ) and given the miscarriages of justice that go on daily both here and in the USA.. the death penalty isn't coming back, its final, and you can't row back from it.Indigo said:
Not even close. How many MPs initially supported the AV referendum ? 57. It still happened. All you need is a government desperate for a coalition partner and all sorts of magic happens on relatively few votes. I personally don't want the death penalty either, but your high handed approach to what might prove to be the democratic will of the people is offensive.SquareRoot said:
I think I have. You need 326MPs to vote for the death penalty and then the House of Lords.. I think democracy will stop it happening.CD13 said:SquareRoot,
"that's why the likes of you should never be allowed anywhere near the levers of power."
You've not quite got the hang of this democracy lark, have you?
The important people make the decisions, the plebs suck it up. Interesting. And btw, I'm not in favour of the death penalty, but my vote is worth no more than any one else.
I disagree with other things and sometimes find myself in a minority. Some people just won't be told.
If UKIP gan get 326MP's then we will see.
There will always be terrorist and mass murderers, doesn't mean we have to sink to their level.
You either believe in democracy or you don't. I
A limited democracy, especially one which restricts some freedoms in order to protect the greater ones, is a logical, consistent stance, however unpopular it is with some of the kipper bashers on here.0 -
Conor Pope sounding eerily similar to many Conservatives talking about UKIP:
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/01/greens-are-joke-and-labour-shouldnt-be-frightened-saying-so
While he is right in much of his detail, he's overlooking the truth that Green supporters, like UKIP supporters, really aren't so interested in policy as in expressing an emotional allegiance.0 -
Anarchism was strong in parts of Spain during the Civil War. The Anarchists took the view that imprisoning someone for life was the very worst thing you could do, and that execution was more humane.Patrick said:
Hmmm....I do. There is no rowing back from an erroneous conviction that leads to someone being executed. It means the state has taken a life without reason or recourse. Thus I oppose the death penalty.isam said:
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killedSquareRoot said:
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.isam said:"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.
Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html
I do, however, fully support the notion of punishment and that some crimes deserve life without the possibility of parole. This is in effect 'death by prison' as opposed to death by hanging. Sutcliffe, Hindley, Shipman - these type of people should just stay in a cell forever. Maybe in a way that is a worse fate than a swift end...
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Sounds very high minded but its bullshit if the population vote for it in a referendumCharles said:
Because it reverses the relationship between the State and the Citizenisam said:
In your opinionSquareRoot said:
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.isam said:"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.
Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed
Giving the State the power to decide which of its Citizens can live or die would be an obscenity.
Citizens who behead soldiers in the name of the enemy can do one
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They cut his head off, and admitted it while holding a bloody knife at the scene.. so there is very little chance of innocencePatrick said:
Hmmm....I do. There is no rowing back from an erroneous conviction that leads to someone being executed. It means the state has taken a life without reason or recourse. Thus I oppose the death penalty.isam said:
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killedSquareRoot said:
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.isam said:"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.
Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html
I do, however, fully support the notion of punishment and that some crimes deserve life without the possibility of parole. This is in effect 'death by prison' as opposed to death by hanging. Sutcliffe, Hindley, Shipman - these type of people should just stay in a cell forever. Maybe in a way that is a worse fate than a swift end...0 -
Capital punishment is wrong. We do not have the right to make that final judgement of our fellow men.
That is not changed by a temporary or even a permanent majority believing otherwise.0 -
I would laugh. Hard.audreyanne said:Only just catching up on this, and it may have been noted before on here but:
Rumour has it Labour might not go ahead with the TV debates ...
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I guess you can look at it two ways.audreyanne said:
Not too sure about that actually. It's also logical to half-believe in it. It works most of the time in many situations, but not all the time and not everywhere. It's not flawless, but it's pretty good. Democracy is also about pragmatism: getting the best possible system for a given situation (e.g. FPTP).Indigo said:
Your sounding desperate, and illogical.
You either believe in democracy or you don't. I
A limited democracy, especially one which restricts some freedoms in order to protect the greater ones, is a logical, consistent stance, however unpopular it is with some of the kipper bashers on here.
With our current systems if there are a chain of beheadings on mainland Britain and the newly formed PissOff Party is elected on a platform of restoring capital punishment and other over the top crackdowns, they are legally entitled to resile from the EHCR, leave the EU, and reintroduce capital punishment and whatever else they want to do. Democracy in action, the people are entitled, and able to vote for stupid things.
Philosophically I kind of agree with you, but not entirely, democracy is like free speech, as soon as its not full, you get into awkward questions about who gets to choose which bits you don't do, and on what basis, and its becomes the thin end of the wedge, what happens when you get a slightly unsavory government elected and they use the exceptions already granted as pretext and justification for new exceptions you don't like.0 -
I agree with you antifrank.antifrank said:Capital punishment is wrong. We do not have the right to make that final judgement of our fellow men.
That is not changed by a temporary or even a permanent majority believing otherwise.
And in the case of Islamist extremists it would make a martyr of them. However, I'm not getting into another of pb's turgid and often ill-informed debates on Islam. Ciao.0 -
Wow. There were just three baby girls named "Tory" in 2013. If I were the paranoid sort, and given that this is a general election year, I would assume that this campaign was run by a Tory sympathiser.Charles said:
Talking about the Standard, there was a very amusing advert I saw yesterday.SquareRoot said:
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.isam said:"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.
Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html
First Great Western is running one of those tedious campaigns with a model pretending to be an employee, and talking about her contribution to your life as a customer. Funny thing is she's a black lady called Tory.
So you have lot's a nice photos of a pretty, industrious women with the strap lines
"Tory's keeping you moving"
"Tory's building a greater West"
"Tory's investing in your future"
...couldn't have planned it better myself...
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In the case you quote that is true. However, if capital punishment is brought back it will be for all murder cases not just the blindingly obviously guilty ones. So there will be the opportunity for irreversible miscarriages of justice. My personal opinion is life imprisonment should mean that the offender spends a minimum of 30 years in prison before becoming eligible for parole. In many ways it is a greater deterrent than the death penalty.isam said:
They cut his head off, and admitted it while holding a bloody knife at the scene.. so there is very little chance of innocencePatrick said:
Hmmm....I do. There is no rowing back from an erroneous conviction that leads to someone being executed. It means the state has taken a life without reason or recourse. Thus I oppose the death penalty.isam said:
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killedSquareRoot said:
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.isam said:"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.
Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html
I do, however, fully support the notion of punishment and that some crimes deserve life without the possibility of parole. This is in effect 'death by prison' as opposed to death by hanging. Sutcliffe, Hindley, Shipman - these type of people should just stay in a cell forever. Maybe in a way that is a worse fate than a swift end...0 -
Indeed! That's a highly unusual spelling of Tori / Torie.OblitusSumMe said:
Wow. There were just three baby girls named "Tory" in 2013. If I were the paranoid sort, and given that this is a general election year, I would assume that this campaign was run by a Tory sympathiser.Charles said:
Talking about the Standard, there was a very amusing advert I saw yesterday.SquareRoot said:
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.isam said:"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.
Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html
First Great Western is running one of those tedious campaigns with a model pretending to be an employee, and talking about her contribution to your life as a customer. Funny thing is she's a black lady called Tory.
So you have lot's a nice photos of a pretty, industrious women with the strap lines
"Tory's keeping you moving"
"Tory's building a greater West"
"Tory's investing in your future"
...couldn't have planned it better myself...0 -
I didn't askCharles said:
Of course people have the right to sell themselves into slavery.isam said:
Sounds very high minded but its bullshit if the population vote for it in a treferendum
Citizens who behead soldiers in the name of the enemy can do one
You asked why it was a problem: I explained it.0 -
Well tongue in ckeek Charles, but as we progress towards assisted death where will the lines be drawn ? And who's to decide judges or doctors or families ?Charles said:
C-Alanbrooke said:
So we should abolish the NHS ?Charles said:
Because it reverses the relationship between the State and the Citizenisam said:
In your opinionSquareRoot said:
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.isam said:"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.
Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed
Giving the State the power to decide which of its Citizens can live or die would be an obscenity.
Disappointing. You can troll better than that.0 -
It is however incredibly expensive in these times of austeritysaddened said:
In the case you quote that is true. However, if capital punishment is brought back it will be for all murder cases not just the blindingly obviously guilty ones. So there will be the opportunity for irreversible miscarriages of justice. My personal opinion is life imprisonment should mean that the offender spends a minimum of 30 years in prison before becoming eligible for parole. In many ways it is a greater deterrent than the death penalty.isam said:
They cut his head off, and admitted it while holding a bloody knife at the scene.. so there is very little chance of innocencePatrick said:
Hmmm....I do. There is no rowing back from an erroneous conviction that leads to someone being executed. It means the state has taken a life without reason or recourse. Thus I oppose the death penalty.isam said:
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killedSquareRoot said:
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.isam said:"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.
Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html
I do, however, fully support the notion of punishment and that some crimes deserve life without the possibility of parole. This is in effect 'death by prison' as opposed to death by hanging. Sutcliffe, Hindley, Shipman - these type of people should just stay in a cell forever. Maybe in a way that is a worse fate than a swift end... 0 -
Tory Tory Tory !OblitusSumMe said:
Wow. There were just three baby girls named "Tory" in 2013. If I were the paranoid sort, and given that this is a general election year, I would assume that this campaign was run by a Tory sympathiser.Charles said:
Talking about the Standard, there was a very amusing advert I saw yesterday.SquareRoot said:
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.isam said:"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.
Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html
First Great Western is running one of those tedious campaigns with a model pretending to be an employee, and talking about her contribution to your life as a customer. Funny thing is she's a black lady called Tory.
So you have lot's a nice photos of a pretty, industrious women with the strap lines
"Tory's keeping you moving"
"Tory's building a greater West"
"Tory's investing in your future"
...couldn't have planned it better myself...
maybe they were Japanese.0 -
It's not something for me which is capable of argument, since it is part of my system of morality. A majority determining otherwise would not persuade me that I was wrong, merely that I was surrounded by an immoral majority.isam said:
Your opinion, not a factantifrank said:Capital punishment is wrong. We do not have the right to make that final judgement of our fellow men.
That is not changed by a temporary or even a permanent majority believing otherwise.0 -
Oh Isam. Really and truly, those are words I last heard at school. Come on, grow up.isam said:
Your opinion, not a factantifrank said:Capital punishment is wrong. We do not have the right to make that final judgement of our fellow men.
That is not changed by a temporary or even a permanent majority believing otherwise.
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Mike if you're around, did you see the post about Labour on the TV debates? Not a foregone conclusion that they're now going to accept apparently ...0
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Well that's your personal opinion and I don't say you are wrong to believe whatever you like but for people who commit terrorist acts, I would disagree that it was wrong to kill them, especially if they were British citizens... I'd probably let foreigners off with prisonantifrank said:
It's not something for me which is capable of argument, since it is part of my system of morality. A majority determining otherwise would not persuade me that I was wrong, merely that I was surrounded by an immoral majority.isam said:
Your opinion, not a factantifrank said:Capital punishment is wrong. We do not have the right to make that final judgement of our fellow men.
That is not changed by a temporary or even a permanent majority believing otherwise.0 -
You'll have to stop trying to tell me what to do, it wont make the slightest differenceaudreyanne said:
Oh Isam. Really and truly, those are words I last heard at school. Come on, grow up.isam said:
Your opinion, not a factantifrank said:Capital punishment is wrong. We do not have the right to make that final judgement of our fellow men.
That is not changed by a temporary or even a permanent majority believing otherwise.0 -
30 years would be a harsh punishment for a lot of murderers, and would have been considered harsh even when he had capital punishment (most murderers were spared the death penalty, and served about 12 years on average).saddened said:
In the case you quote that is true. However, if capital punishment is brought back it will be for all murder cases not just the blindingly obviously guilty ones. So there will be the opportunity for irreversible miscarriages of justice. My personal opinion is life imprisonment should mean that the offender spends a minimum of 30 years in prison before becoming eligible for parole. In many ways it is a greater deterrent than the death penalty.isam said:
They cut his head off, and admitted it while holding a bloody knife at the scene.. so there is very little chance of innocencePatrick said:
Hmmm....I do. There is no rowing back from an erroneous conviction that leads to someone being executed. It means the state has taken a life without reason or recourse. Thus I oppose the death penalty.isam said:
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killedSquareRoot said:
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.isam said:"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html
I do, however, fully support the notion of punishment and that some crimes deserve life without the possibility of parole. This is in effect 'death by prison' as opposed to death by hanging. Sutcliffe, Hindley, Shipman - these type of people should just stay in a cell forever. Maybe in a way that is a worse fate than a swift end...
If we had capital punishment, you'd probably only have about half a dozen executions a year, so inevitably there'd be prolonged legal and ethical arguments about why X and not Y?
I think most people have no problem with the principle that some people merit execution. We just can't agree who.
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Unless the deterrence effect means that fewer people actually commit murder and thereby reduce costs in the longer term. The problem that lots of people have with their "common sense" solutions is that they cannot see beyond the blindingly obvious. Using the Rigby case to support the return of capital punishment is a prime example of this.Indigo said:
It is however incredibly expensive in these times of austeritysaddened said:
In the case you quote that is true. However, if capital punishment is brought back it will be for all murder cases not just the blindingly obviously guilty ones. So there will be the opportunity for irreversible miscarriages of justice. My personal opinion is life imprisonment should mean that the offender spends a minimum of 30 years in prison before becoming eligible for parole. In many ways it is a greater deterrent than the death penalty.isam said:
They cut his head off, and admitted it while holding a bloody knife at the scene.. so there is very little chance of innocencePatrick said:
Hmmm....I do. There is no rowing back from an erroneous conviction that leads to someone being executed. It means the state has taken a life without reason or recourse. Thus I oppose the death penalty.isam said:
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killedSquareRoot said:
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.isam said:"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.
Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html
I do, however, fully support the notion of punishment and that some crimes deserve life without the possibility of parole. This is in effect 'death by prison' as opposed to death by hanging. Sutcliffe, Hindley, Shipman - these type of people should just stay in a cell forever. Maybe in a way that is a worse fate than a swift end...0 -
"However, if capital punishment is brought back it will be for all murder cases not just the blindingly obviously guilty ones"saddened said:
In the case you quote that is true. However, if capital punishment is brought back it will be for all murder cases not just the blindingly obviously guilty ones. So there will be the opportunity for irreversible miscarriages of justice. My personal opinion is life imprisonment should mean that the offender spends a minimum of 30 years in prison before becoming eligible for parole. In many ways it is a greater deterrent than the death penalty.isam said:
They cut his head off, and admitted it while holding a bloody knife at the scene.. so there is very little chance of innocencePatrick said:
Hmmm....I do. There is no rowing back from an erroneous conviction that leads to someone being executed. It means the state has taken a life without reason or recourse. Thus I oppose the death penalty.isam said:
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killedSquareRoot said:
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.isam said:"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.
Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html
I do, however, fully support the notion of punishment and that some crimes deserve life without the possibility of parole. This is in effect 'death by prison' as opposed to death by hanging. Sutcliffe, Hindley, Shipman - these type of people should just stay in a cell forever. Maybe in a way that is a worse fate than a swift end...
Not necessarily. I would only impose it on such extreme cases, no reason why it cant be an option once in a century.
These men beheaded someone to make a political point. They wanted to be caught for the publicity they would get, so fuck em. I said before on here I would wake them up daily with a baseball bat to the head forever, or kill them.0 -
"If I were the paranoid sort, and given that this is a general election year, I would assume that this campaign was run by a Tory sympathiser."
My guess is a Labour copywriter's typo. It was supposed to be 'Tony'0 -
Mr. Isam, execution could be seen by both perpetrators and their lunatic supporters as martyrdom.0
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I am not sure who needs to grow up.audreyanne said:
Oh Isam. Really and truly, those are words I last heard at school. Come on, grow up.isam said:
Your opinion, not a factantifrank said:Capital punishment is wrong. We do not have the right to make that final judgement of our fellow men.
That is not changed by a temporary or even a permanent majority believing otherwise.
Everyone at almost every time thinks they are right, and the people in the previous generations are wrong. There have been many people who were believed moral and learned people in their day, who would be seen as the most unforgivable monsters were they alive now. We are in the same position now compared to the people yet to come. Moral absolutism is bunk, we will all be seen a monsters by succeeding generations, and I am sure we are seen that way now by other cultures. All we can to do is make the best job we can with the tools we have.0 -
In which case, you are them.isam said:
I said before on here I would wake them up daily with a baseball bat to the head forever, or kill them.saddened said:
In the case you quote that is true. However, if capital punishment is brought back it will be for all murder cases not just the blindingly obviously guilty ones. So there will be the opportunity for irreversible miscarriages of justice. My personal opinion is life imprisonment should mean that the offender spends a minimum of 30 years in prison before becoming eligible for parole. In many ways it is a greater deterrent than the death penalty.isam said:
They cut his head off, and admitted it while holding a bloody knife at the scene.. so there is very little chance of innocencePatrick said:isam said:
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killedSquareRoot said:isam said:"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
l
I wasn't really telling you what to do by the way, just part despair and part friendly advice from an older person to someone young. As I've said before, 1 in 10 of your posts are incisive and intelligent. It's just advice, but if you counted to 30 every time before posting, and held back on 9 out of 10 of them, you'd be on track to win Sean T's coveted poster of the year award, especially given your views. 0 -
Are you seriously looking to become an elected representative of UKIP? Or is it a wind up?isam said:
"However, if capital punishment is brought back it will be for all murder cases not just the blindingly obviously guilty ones"saddened said:
In the case you quote that is true. However, if capital punishment is brought back it will be for all murder cases not just the blindingly obviously guilty ones. So there will be the opportunity for irreversible miscarriages of justice. My personal opinion is life imprisonment should mean that the offender spends a minimum of 30 years in prison before becoming eligible for parole. In many ways it is a greater deterrent than the death penalty.isam said:
They cut his head off, and admitted it while holding a bloody knife at the scene.. so there is very little chance of innocencePatrick said:
Hmmm....I do. There is no rowing back from an erroneous conviction that leads to someone being executed. It means the state has taken a life without reason or recourse. Thus I oppose the death penalty.isam said:
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killedSquareRoot said:
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.isam said:"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
l
I do, however, fully support the notion of punishment and that some crimes deserve life without the possibility of parole. This is in effect 'death by prison' as opposed to death by hanging. Sutcliffe, Hindley, Shipman - these type of people should just stay in a cell forever. Maybe in a way that is a worse fate than a swift end...
Not necessarily. I would only impose it on such extreme cases, no reason why it cant be an option once in a century.
These men beheaded someone to make a political point. They wanted to be caught for the publicity they would get, so fuck em. I said before on here I would wake them up daily with a baseball bat to the head forever, or kill them.0 -
On the Crowborough by-election: I know Jeannette Towey reasonably well, she'll be a good and independently-minded councillor. Quite a good showing for UKIP, though.0
-
Will be interesting what those posters on here most vocal about that other paper will have to say about the Mirror and whether or not it should still be published.FrancisUrquhart said:http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/80463000/jpg/_80463058_indy.jpg
Really...The BBC seems very uninterested in this. I can't even find that fact that the Mirror had to make a large series of payouts today.
Or they just might be hypocrites0 -
Not being able to read down a few posts to where I said I was personally against Capital Punishment is another failingsaddened said:
Unless the deterrence effect means that fewer people actually commit murder and thereby reduce costs in the longer term. The problem that lots of people have with their "common sense" solutions is that they cannot see beyond the blindingly obvious. Using the Rigby case to support the return of capital punishment is a prime example of this.Indigo said:
It is however incredibly expensive in these times of austeritysaddened said:
In the case you quote that is true. However, if capital punishment is brought back it will be for all murder cases not just the blindingly obviously guilty ones. So there will be the opportunity for irreversible miscarriages of justice. My personal opinion is life imprisonment should mean that the offender spends a minimum of 30 years in prison before becoming eligible for parole. In many ways it is a greater deterrent than the death penalty.isam said:
They cut his head off, and admitted it while holding a bloody knife at the scene.. so there is very little chance of innocencePatrick said:
Hmmm....I do. There is no rowing back from an erroneous conviction that leads to someone being executed. It means the state has taken a life without reason or recourse. Thus I oppose the death penalty.isam said:
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killedSquareRoot said:
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.
I do, however, fully support the notion of punishment and that some crimes deserve life without the possibility of parole. This is in effect 'death by prison' as opposed to death by hanging. Sutcliffe, Hindley, Shipman - these type of people should just stay in a cell forever. Maybe in a way that is a worse fate than a swift end... What I said was it was fatuous to say it couldn't come back, you need an angry population, a party that wants their votes, and a vote in parliament, that's it. The rights and the wrong are really beside the point, the people will decide.
0 -
One day yes, not this time. Why do you ask?saddened said:
Are you seriously looking to become an elected representative of UKIP? Or is it a wind up?isam said:
"However, if capital punishment is brought back it will be for all murder cases not just the blindingly obviously guilty ones"saddened said:
In the case you quote that is true. However, if capital punishment is brought back it will be for all murder cases not just the blindingly obviously guilty ones. So there will be the opportunity for irreversible miscarriages of justice. My personal opinion is life imprisonment should mean that the offender spends a minimum of 30 years in prison before becoming eligible for parole. In many ways it is a greater deterrent than the death penalty.isam said:
They cut his head off, and admitted it while holding a bloody knife at the scene.. so there is very little chance of innocencePatrick said:
Hmmm....I do. There is no rowing back from an erroneous conviction that leads to someone being executed. It means the state has taken a life without reason or recourse. Thus I oppose the death penalty.isam said:
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killedSquareRoot said:
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.isam said:"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
l
I do, however, fully support the notion of punishment and that some crimes deserve life without the possibility of parole. This is in effect 'death by prison' as opposed to death by hanging. Sutcliffe, Hindley, Shipman - these type of people should just stay in a cell forever. Maybe in a way that is a worse fate than a swift end...
Not necessarily. I would only impose it on such extreme cases, no reason why it cant be an option once in a century.
These men beheaded someone to make a political point. They wanted to be caught for the publicity they would get, so fuck em. I said before on here I would wake them up daily with a baseball bat to the head forever, or kill them.
0 -
Scotslass
"Further to my point about Murphy and women. I know that this is not Labour's biggest problem which is probably Milliband among men and women. How ever if you compare Murphy not with Sturgeon who is plus 47 per cent among women , or with Salmond who was always strong plus among women but even with Swinney and Harvie of the Greens then Murphy comes out badly."
Tim's come back as a Scottish woman!0 -
Lord above please stopaudreyanne said:
In which case, you are them.isam said:
I said before on here I would wake them up daily with a baseball bat to the head forever, or kill them.saddened said:
In the case you quote that is true. However, if capital punishment is brought back it will be for all murder cases not just the blindingly obviously guilty ones. So there will be the opportunity for irreversible miscarriages of justice. My personal opinion is life imprisonment should mean that the offender spends a minimum of 30 years in prison before becoming eligible for parole. In many ways it is a greater deterrent than the death penalty.isam said:
They cut his head off, and admitted it while holding a bloody knife at the scene.. so there is very little chance of innocencePatrick said:isam said:
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killedSquareRoot said:isam said:"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
l
I wasn't really telling you what to do by the way, just part despair and part friendly advice from an older person to someone young. As I've said before, 1 in 10 of your posts are incisive and intelligent. It's just advice, but if you counted to 30 every time before posting, and held back on 9 out of 10 of them, you'd be on track to win Sean T's coveted poster of the year award, especially given your views.0 -
Because if you are I suggest that you think about what you put into print, unless you fancy appearing in the daily mail.isam said:
One day yes, not this time. Why do you ask?saddened said:
Are you seriously looking to become an elected representative of UKIP? Or is it a wind up?isam said:
"However, if capital punishment is brought back it will be for all murder cases not just the blindingly obviously guilty ones"saddened said:
In the case you quote that is true. However, if capital punishment is brought back it will be for all murder cases not just the blindingly obviously guilty ones. So there will be the opportunity for irreversible miscarriages of justice. My personal opinion is life imprisonment should mean that the offender spends a minimum of 30 years in prison before becoming eligible for parole. In many ways it is a greater deterrent than the death penalty.isam said:
They cut his head off, and admitted it while holding a bloody knife at the scene.. so there is very little chance of innocencePatrick said:
Hmmm....I do. There is no rowing back from an erroneous conviction that leads to someone being executed. It means the state has taken a life without reason or recourse. Thus I oppose the death penalty.isam said:
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killedSquareRoot said:
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.isam said:"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
l
I do, however, fully support the notion of punishment and that some crimes deserve life without the possibility of parole. This is in effect 'death by prison' as opposed to death by hanging. Sutcliffe, Hindley, Shipman - these type of people should just stay in a cell forever. Maybe in a way that is a worse fate than a swift end...
Not necessarily. I would only impose it on such extreme cases, no reason why it cant be an option once in a century.
These men beheaded someone to make a political point. They wanted to be caught for the publicity they would get, so fuck em. I said before on here I would wake them up daily with a baseball bat to the head forever, or kill them.0 -
The relatively high rate of suicide in prison would tend to support your final point.Patrick said:
Hmmm....I do. There is no rowing back from an erroneous conviction that leads to someone being executed. It means the state has taken a life without reason or recourse. Thus I oppose the death penalty.isam said:
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killedSquareRoot said:
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.isam said:"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.
Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html
I do, however, fully support the notion of punishment and that some crimes deserve life without the possibility of parole. This is in effect 'death by prison' as opposed to death by hanging. Sutcliffe, Hindley, Shipman - these type of people should just stay in a cell forever. Maybe in a way that is a worse fate than a swift end...0 -
He's not the only one. There was a column in the Guardian from a Labour lefty giving Labour advice* on how to combat the Greens, which was identical in form and style to many that have been published in the Telegraph and elsewhere on how the Conservatives should win back voters lost to UKIP.antifrank said:Conor Pope sounding eerily similar to many Conservatives talking about UKIP:
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/01/greens-are-joke-and-labour-shouldnt-be-frightened-saying-so
While he is right in much of his detail, he's overlooking the truth that Green supporters, like UKIP supporters, really aren't so interested in policy as in expressing an emotional allegiance.
* Basically it boiled down to doing what the writer thinks they should have done already, which is often the way with these sorts of columns.0 -
saddened said:
To be honest, one of the reasons I am considering blowing it out is that I like to say what I think and detest spinisam said:
Because if you are I suggest that you think about what you put into print, unless you fancy appearing in the daily mail.saddened said:
One day yes, not this time. Why do you ask?isam said:
Are you seriously looking to become an elected representative of UKIP? Or is it a wind up?saddened said:
"However, if capital punishment is brought back it will be for all murder cases not just the blindingly obviously guilty ones"isam said:
They cut his head off, and admitted it while holding a bloody knife at the scene.. so there is very little chance of innocencePatrick said:
Hmmm....I do. There is no rowing back from an erroneous conviction that leads to someone being executed. It means the state has taken a life without reason or recourse. Thus I oppose the death penalty.isam said:
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killedSquareRoot said:
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.isam said:"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
l
...
Not necessarily. I would only impose it on such extreme cases, no reason why it cant be an option once in a century.
These men beheaded someone to make a political point. They wanted to be caught for the publicity they would get, so fuck em. I said before on here I would wake them up daily with a baseball bat to the head forever, or kill them.
I am not even anywhere near being a politician yet you are already advising caution, and saying I should toe the line as politicians do and have done for years... but the reason I want to get in to it is to shake things up. Id rather fail saying what I mean than succeed through cheap spin and a facade0 -
I agree with this. The only defence is in trusting that the collective judgement of your fellow citizens will be sound. Or at least, only wrong temporarily.Indigo said:
I guess you can look at it two ways.audreyanne said:
Not too sure about that actually. It's also logical to half-believe in it. It works most of the time in many situations, but not all the time and not everywhere. It's not flawless, but it's pretty good. Democracy is also about pragmatism: getting the best possible system for a given situation (e.g. FPTP).Indigo said:
Your sounding desperate, and illogical.
You either believe in democracy or you don't. I
A limited democracy, especially one which restricts some freedoms in order to protect the greater ones, is a logical, consistent stance, however unpopular it is with some of the kipper bashers on here.
With our current systems if there are a chain of beheadings on mainland Britain and the newly formed PissOff Party is elected on a platform of restoring capital punishment and other over the top crackdowns, they are legally entitled to resile from the EHCR, leave the EU, and reintroduce capital punishment and whatever else they want to do. Democracy in action, the people are entitled, and able to vote for stupid things.
Philosophically I kind of agree with you, but not entirely, democracy is like free speech, as soon as its not full, you get into awkward questions about who gets to choose which bits you don't do, and on what basis, and its becomes the thin end of the wedge, what happens when you get a slightly unsavory government elected and they use the exceptions already granted as pretext and justification for new exceptions you don't like.
This is a principle that is hard to stick to, particularly given the daily bits of evidence that challenge it, but the alternative is to believe that you personally have a special insight, denied to your fellow citizens, and the right to enforce that insight over your fellow citizens, by violence if necessary.0 -
The Lefty Mirror wasn't Hacking, it was 'investigative journalism'.Floater said:
Will be interesting what those posters on here most vocal about that other paper will have to say about the Mirror and whether or not it should still be published.FrancisUrquhart said:http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/80463000/jpg/_80463058_indy.jpg
Really...The BBC seems very uninterested in this. I can't even find that fact that the Mirror had to make a large series of payouts today.
Or they just might be hypocrites0 -
I think there is something in that, the other problem is that the split in both cases has largely happened over something that is fundamental to the parties evolving identity, and so is to all intents non-negotiable.antifrank said:Conor Pope sounding eerily similar to many Conservatives talking about UKIP:
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/01/greens-are-joke-and-labour-shouldnt-be-frightened-saying-so
While he is right in much of his detail, he's overlooking the truth that Green supporters, like UKIP supporters, really aren't so interested in policy as in expressing an emotional allegiance.
UKIP largely have split from the Conservatives over social conservatism/liberalism, being nice and cuddly and socially liberal is key to the parties new image (it might change, but that is how it is at the moment), so the thing that the Conservatives would need to do to get UKIP voters back, viz. socially conservative policies, isn't on the table.
Labour are trying to look more financially responsible, so have largely signed up to austerity, the people peeling off to the Greens are the "magic money tree" contingent that don't see the need for austerity, to get them back Labour would have to abandon any pretense financial responsibility, so that isn't on the table either at the moment.
Politics being fluid I expect which ever party loses the election to abandon their current position and cast around for votes, Labour will probably head left to recapture the Greens, or the Tories will head right to recapture UKIP, either way the LDs will probably get a boost.0 -
It's a fairly standard abbreviation of Victoria thoughaudreyanne said:
Indeed! That's a highly unusual spelling of Tori / Torie.OblitusSumMe said:
Wow. There were just three baby girls named "Tory" in 2013. If I were the paranoid sort, and given that this is a general election year, I would assume that this campaign was run by a Tory sympathiser.Charles said:
Talking about the Standard, there was a very amusing advert I saw yesterday.SquareRoot said:
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.isam said:"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.
Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html
First Great Western is running one of those tedious campaigns with a model pretending to be an employee, and talking about her contribution to your life as a customer. Funny thing is she's a black lady called Tory.
So you have lot's a nice photos of a pretty, industrious women with the strap lines
"Tory's keeping you moving"
"Tory's building a greater West"
"Tory's investing in your future"
...couldn't have planned it better myself...0 -
Of course you didn't. At 8:24 you said "I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed"isam said:
I didn't askCharles said:
Of course people have the right to sell themselves into slavery.isam said:
Sounds very high minded but its bullshit if the population vote for it in a treferendum
Citizens who behead soldiers in the name of the enemy can do one
You asked why it was a problem: I explained it.
I thought you might appreciate someone explaining it to you.
But perhaps you are happier not being challenged0 -
Have they rowed back from their reaction last night then?audreyanne said:Mike if you're around, did you see the post about Labour on the TV debates? Not a foregone conclusion that they're now going to accept apparently ...
0 -
Carlotta Vance:
"like Quebec"
BUT, the pro independence vote in Quebec in the first referendum was only 40%.
The second was 49% plus.
Pro rata, if it is "like Quebec", a second independence referendum in Scotland ought to exceed 50% :-)
Also, "like Quebec", the Parti Quebecois polled 49% of the vote in the Quebec election following the 40% Yes vote in the referendum. So "like Quebec" may mean a very high SNP vote in May.
It may be "like Quebec", Carlotta-but perhaps not in the way you are imagining!0 -
The effect of the Euro QE rumbles on.
The GBP dips below $1.50 and the Euro nears $0.90 -
Sorry, Charles, you're wrong. There is NO MP job description, and in practice it's interpreted differently in up to 650 different ways, arising from the interaction of personal preference with voter preference with marginality. Perhaps there should be, but there is not.Indigo said:
I think all those constituencies MPs who spend their time is local surgeries listening to Mrs Miggins complaining about the poor service the local Fire Brigade gave in retrieving her cat from a tree might wish it were so!Charles said:
It's not the job of MPs to "sort out problems".
Their job is to hold the executive (who should be sorting the problems) to account. It's irrelevant whether the specific problem is one part of the country or other - it's good that the executive should be beaten up and cowed from time to time pour les encourager les autres
[Note: this recipe includes a healthy dash of idealism]
0 -
Oh "killer" point Chas! A mortal blow for my argument!Charles said:
Of course you didn't. At 8:24 you said "I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed"isam said:
I didn't askCharles said:
Of course people have the right to sell themselves into slavery.isam said:
Sounds very high minded but its bullshit if the population vote for it in a treferendum
Citizens who behead soldiers in the name of the enemy can do one
You asked why it was a problem: I explained it.
I thought you might appreciate someone explaining it to you.
But perhaps you are happier not being challenged
I didn't ask, as I said0 -
To compound matters Murphy made it clear that he viewed winning back the lost 190,000 older male voters, who had deserted SLAB, as the key to reviving SLAB's fortunes. Murphy is true to his word and is messaging directly to this group e.g. alcohol at football matches etc. He seems to have concluded that women will remain more loyal to SLAB, as they have done historically.scotslass said:Southampton Observer
Now at work so I'll keep this short. I think Murphy is making things worse not better. Most politicians get a leaders honey moon. He is having a reverse honey moon. One reason may be that he is profoundly unattractive. I don't mean physically just that male machine politicians are a profound turn off for women.
The figures from the MORI survey tend to bear out the theory that Murphy is part of Labour' s Many problems.
What Murphy seems to be ignoring is that the SNP surge is being led by women, they now account for 44% of SNP membership (up from 33% pre-surge). I think ignoring this fact could signal armageddon for SLAB. The polls also indicate that a much higher % of don't knows in Scotland are women - they are now faced with a choice of Sturgeon or Murphy/Milliband. Suffice to say M&M are doing little to reach out to this critical group of don't knows and soft SLAB supporters.0 -
That didn't take much working out. The new format of seven has nothing in it for Ed.audreyanne said:Only just catching up on this, and it may have been noted before on here but:
Rumour has it Labour might not go ahead with the TV debates ...
0 -
The BBC's heading for a Battle Royale with Amazon, Google and BT's broadcast operations.SquareRoot said:
naaaah.. more like every mention of hacking kicks Murdoch and NI in the goolies..again There are other battles to fight...DecrepitJohnL said:
Yesterday you complained the BBC made you read all the way to the second sentence to discover the Mirror had settled.FrancisUrquhart said:http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/80463000/jpg/_80463058_indy.jpg
Really...The BBC seems very uninterested in this. I can't even find that fact that the Mirror had to make a large series of payouts today.
Look at other news outlets, such as, well, Sky. The story does not make the front page of Sky News (news.sky.com) so either it is your news judgement that is awry or Rupert Murdoch is part of a conspiracy to save the Mirror's blushes.0 -
I think you are missing the bigger picture.......JPJ2 said:Carlotta Vance:
"like Quebec"
BUT, the pro independence vote in Quebec in the first referendum was only 40%.
The second was 49% plus.
Pro rata, if it is "like Quebec", a second independence referendum in Scotland ought to exceed 50% :-)
Also, "like Quebec", the Parti Quebecois polled 49% of the vote in the Quebec election following the 40% Yes vote in the referendum. So "like Quebec" may mean a very high SNP vote in May.
It may be "like Quebec", Carlotta-but perhaps not in the way you are imagining!0 -
Not a killer point. Just an observation.isam said:
Oh "killer" point Chas! A mortal blow for my argument!Charles said:
Of course you didn't. At 8:24 you said "I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed"isam said:
I didn't askCharles said:
Of course people have the right to sell themselves into slavery.isam said:
Sounds very high minded but its bullshit if the population vote for it in a treferendum
Citizens who behead soldiers in the name of the enemy can do one
You asked why it was a problem: I explained it.
I thought you might appreciate someone explaining it to you.
But perhaps you are happier not being challenged
I didn't ask, as I said
But there are people who prefer to remain in their comfort zone rather than debate. Sadly it appears you may be one of them.0 -
I think if capital punishment needs to be brought back, the conviction needs to be beyond all doubt - to take two examples the Lee Rigby murder was beyond resonable, and all doubt whereas I'd say Pistorius is beyond reasonable, but not all doubt.0
-
Of course there isn't a job description. But I was looking at the fundamental purpose of parliament: to hold the executive to account and for MPs to represent the interests of their constituents.NickPalmer said:
Sorry, Charles, you're wrong. There is NO MP job description, and in practice it's interpreted differently in up to 650 different ways, arising from the interaction of personal preference with voter preference with marginality. Perhaps there should be, but there is not.Indigo said:
I think all those constituencies MPs who spend their time is local surgeries listening to Mrs Miggins complaining about the poor service the local Fire Brigade gave in retrieving her cat from a tree might wish it were so!Charles said:
It's not the job of MPs to "sort out problems".
Their job is to hold the executive (who should be sorting the problems) to account. It's irrelevant whether the specific problem is one part of the country or other - it's good that the executive should be beaten up and cowed from time to time pour les encourager les autres
[Note: this recipe includes a healthy dash of idealism]0 -
@PopulusPolls: Latest Populus VI: Lab 36 (-), Con 32 (-3), LD 9 (+1), UKIP 13 (-), Others 10 (+1). Tables here: http://t.co/bOPVcX70pD0
-
In the aftermath of the referendum count, Fife local paper wrote that party watchers at the count claimed YES carried Kirkcaldy.
Hence I am not so surprised the swing here is much higher than those recorded in Midlothian by-election in December.0 -
Not at all, and you know that full well.. please stop being such a smart arse, its not a good lookCharles said:
Not a killer point. Just an observation.isam said:
Oh "killer" point Chas! A mortal blow for my argument!Charles said:
Of course you didn't. At 8:24 you said "I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed"isam said:
I didn't askCharles said:
Of course people have the right to sell themselves into slavery.isam said:
Sounds very high minded but its bullshit if the population vote for it in a treferendum
Citizens who behead soldiers in the name of the enemy can do one
You asked why it was a problem: I explained it.
I thought you might appreciate someone explaining it to you.
But perhaps you are happier not being challenged
I didn't ask, as I said
But there are people who prefer to remain in their comfort zone rather than debate. Sadly it appears you may be one of them.
I am not some gung ho maniac who thinks" if in doubt kill them" but in cases where there is no reasonable doubt I think they should be killed, and it seems more Londoners agree with me than do not0 -
Greens up to 6 from 40
-
Some useful moves on SPIN:
Con 279-285
Lab 279-285
LD 27-29
UKIP 7.5-9.5
SNP 31-33
From memory I think that is Con and Lab both down 3 from yesterday, and the SNP up 3 (although they'd been at 29-31 for a while before yesterday).
I'm still keeping my SNP Buy (which I got at 20.5) open.0 -
Thank goodness someone else spotted that. It's a key problem in interpreting Scottish cooncil by elections [edit] especially for replacing councillors who won 2nd or 3rd in the original vote.daodao said:The commentary on the Kirkcaldy by-election result is a complete misinterpretation of the outcome. It is a massive swing of 13.9% to the SNP, as the by-election is effectively conducted on the AV system, whereas the original council election was STV, in which Labour was the clear winner. For what it's worth, given the typical low council by-election turnout, it is in line with the SNP's current massive lead in Scottish opinion polls. The latter, if it actually occurs on 7/5/15, would pose the sort of challenge to the current configuration of the UK as SF's sweep of nearly all the seats in the 26 counties did in 1918, which led to their liberation from Westminster rule less than 4 years later.
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In what way?TheWatcher said:
The BBC's heading for a Battle Royale with Amazon, Google and BT's broadcast operations.0 -
Labour clearly isn't on 36, as they are level in the tables with the SNP in Scotland - so the sample is very very pro SLAB.TheScreamingEagles said:@PopulusPolls: Latest Populus VI: Lab 36 (-), Con 32 (-3), LD 9 (+1), UKIP 13 (-), Others 10 (+1). Tables here: http://t.co/bOPVcX70pD
Anyone going to extract the English figures, my impression is that this poll is worse for Labour and slightly better for the Conservatives than the topline suggests. UKIP also are definitely treading water but re on more than 13% I think.0 -
With the loss of Broon's incumbency possible making Kirkcaldy not quite the fortress it seemed, I took £11.11 for the SNP there last night. (9-2 Hills)
Only ONE man can save Scotland for Labour now - and it ain't Murphy or Miliband.0 -
Look at the operations those 3 are building, and their budgets.Jonathan said:
In what way?TheWatcher said:
The BBC's heading for a Battle Royale with Amazon, Google and BT's broadcast operations.0 -
Sounds more like an opportunity than a threat.TheWatcher said:
Look at the operations those 3 are building, and their budgets.Jonathan said:
In what way?TheWatcher said:
The BBC's heading for a Battle Royale with Amazon, Google and BT's broadcast operations.0 -
There seems to be a belief amongst some of our UKIP supporters on here that UKIP MPs will bring back the death penalty. Dear Chums, you are living in blissful ignorance of the reality on this. 100% of UKIP MPs oppose the death penalty. As a group of MPs they are more against the death penalty than Labour or the Conservatives.
Mark Reckless signed in November 2010 the all party motion for the abolition of the death penalty and in 2011 BBC quoted "Douglas Carswell MP agreed, saying, although he was firmly against the death penalty, he was in favour of Parliament debating it and would support a referendum on whether it should be brought back."0 -
Unfortunately (For Scottish Labour) he's too busy at the UN ^_~Carnyx said:
Oh? Pray tell ...Pulpstar said:With the loss of Broon's incumbency possible making Kirkcaldy not quite the fortress it seemed, I took £11.11 for the SNP there last night. (9-2 Hills)
Only ONE man can save Scotland for Labour now - and it ain't Murphy or Miliband.
(I'm coming to the view that his speech DID actually save the union...)0 -
Scottish subsample watch - Lab & SNP both on 31.
In this poll at least Green skews "young" - so is NOTA splitting Green younger, UKIP older? We know who tends to vote......0 -
I think the SNP have a perfect storm
Reasons:
Collapse in Lib Dem vote as soon as coalition took place - 4% in the poll snow is it ?
Loss of Gordon for Scottish Labour - Miliband's approval ratings lower than Cameron
Labour teaming up with the Conservatives in the indy ref
The Scottish Conservative vote being the Scottish Conservative vote and never actually going up or down.
If only I'd got more on earlier and at longer odds - kicking myself for that !0 -
If there was a string of rapes and murders of young boys by a serial killer who turned out to be a psychotic gay man, I'm sure there'd be a poll or 2 in the aftermath showing a majority in support for the recriminalisation of homosexuality.
If Valerie Solanas was still alive, out of prison and running her own little terrorist campaign, stabbing the likes of Damien Hirst, Martin Amis et al, there might even be a poll calling for female suffrage to be revoked.
Of course I believe in democracy; it's just not the same as mob rule -- especially when the mob is being whipped up by NeoConservative politicians who *want* the state to be more dominant, and civil liberties fewer, forever.0 -
The argument of the religious nutter through the ages. The same argument that is currently used by a bunch of blokes in the middle east who think throwing gay men off high buildings is the right thing to do as it is part of their system of morality.antifrank said:
It's not something for me which is capable of argument, since it is part of my system of morality. A majority determining otherwise would not persuade me that I was wrong, merely that I was surrounded by an immoral majority.isam said:
Your opinion, not a factantifrank said:Capital punishment is wrong. We do not have the right to make that final judgement of our fellow men.
That is not changed by a temporary or even a permanent majority believing otherwise.0 -
Aren't we all! I did get on at some spectacular odds at the end of August, but only for small sums. Still, the way things are going it's going to be a very satisfactory election betting-wise.Pulpstar said:If only I'd got more on earlier and at longer odds - kicking myself for that !
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The Conservatives are ahead in the unweighted sample - I don't recall seeing such a large effect - in either direction - from the weighting on the main party shares with Populus recently.TheScreamingEagles said:@PopulusPolls: Latest Populus VI: Lab 36 (-), Con 32 (-3), LD 9 (+1), UKIP 13 (-), Others 10 (+1). Tables here: http://t.co/bOPVcX70pD
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Who said any different?TCPoliticalBetting said:There seems to be a belief amongst some of our UKIP supporters on here that UKIP MPs will bring back the death penalty. Dear Chums, you are living in blissful ignorance of the reality on this. 100% of UKIP MPs oppose the death penalty. As a group of MPs they are more against the death penalty than Labour or the Conservatives.
Mark Reckless signed in November 2010 the all party motion for the abolition of the death penalty and in 2011 BBC quoted "Douglas Carswell MP agreed, saying, although he was firmly against the death penalty, he was in favour of Parliament debating it and would support a referendum on whether it should be brought back."0 -
You appear to be a little hard of seeing today. There discussion was in the context of a referendum on bringing it back, on the basis of the poll in The Standard isam quoted earlier which said a clear majority of Londoners supported the death penalty. Carswell and apparently Farage now, believe in direct democracy, and hold referendums to see what the people think on various issues of the day, this being one of them.TCPoliticalBetting said:There seems to be a belief amongst some of our UKIP supporters on here that UKIP MPs will bring back the death penalty. Dear Chums, you are living in blissful ignorance of the reality on this. 100% of UKIP MPs oppose the death penalty. As a group of MPs they are more against the death penalty than Labour or the Conservatives.
Mark Reckless signed in November 2010 the all party motion for the abolition of the death penalty and in 2011 BBC quoted "Douglas Carswell MP agreed, saying, although he was firmly against the death penalty, he was in favour of Parliament debating it and would support a referendum on whether it should be brought back."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/10920178/Nigel-Farage-promises-referendums-to-restore-trust-in-Parliament.html
The discussion of a party supporting the death penalty was in the context of a new Podemas type party that could spring up for explicitly that purpose in response to a chain of terrorists outrages or whatever.0 -
I'm sure the usual leftie campaigners will be calling on companies to boycott advertising in the Mirror and Sunday Mirror any moment now, and thus drive the papers out of business. As surely their previous campaign was principled not political, and will apply equally to the similar behaviour of the MGN papers.TheWatcher said:
The Lefty Mirror wasn't Hacking, it was 'investigative journalism'.Floater said:
Will be interesting what those posters on here most vocal about that other paper will have to say about the Mirror and whether or not it should still be published.FrancisUrquhart said:http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/80463000/jpg/_80463058_indy.jpg
Really...The BBC seems very uninterested in this. I can't even find that fact that the Mirror had to make a large series of payouts today.
Or they just might be hypocrites0 -
They had to more than double the responses from council tenants in this sample. This might help to explain why they had to downweight Conservative Party identifiers so much.OblitusSumMe said:
The Conservatives are ahead in the unweighted sample - I don't recall seeing such a large effect - in either direction - from the weighting on the main party shares with Populus recently.TheScreamingEagles said:@PopulusPolls: Latest Populus VI: Lab 36 (-), Con 32 (-3), LD 9 (+1), UKIP 13 (-), Others 10 (+1). Tables here: http://t.co/bOPVcX70pD
A bit of an odd sample, then, but with the weightings acting to bring the headline results basically in the same ballpark as recent Populus polls.0 -
Carlotta Vance
"I think you are missing the bigger picture....... "
Pray tell :-)0 -
We should only impose the death penalty when we're absolutely sure of guilt? The police were absolutely sure of Colin Stagg's 'guilt' as I recall, not to mention that poor guy whom the tabloids very nearly conspired to fit up for the Joanna Yates murder.0
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They're slightly behind in the unweighted sample actually (by 3), but the point about weighting is simply that it adjusts to the demographics of the UK if the sample happens (as in this case) to have proportionately more ABC1 voters than there are nationally.OblitusSumMe said:
The Conservatives are ahead in the unweighted sample - I don't recall seeing such a large effect - in either direction - from the weighting on the main party shares with Populus recently.TheScreamingEagles said:@PopulusPolls: Latest Populus VI: Lab 36 (-), Con 32 (-3), LD 9 (+1), UKIP 13 (-), Others 10 (+1). Tables here: http://t.co/bOPVcX70pD
Nonetheless I don't see anything to alter the "Labour fractionally ahead" theme that's been the most accurate summary throughout recent months.
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new thread
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The Scottish figures also have the Conservatives on 20%, so it's a Unionist friendly sample more than it is a SLAB friendly one, I think.Pulpstar said:
Labour clearly isn't on 36, as they are level in the tables with the SNP in Scotland - so the sample is very very pro SLAB.TheScreamingEagles said:@PopulusPolls: Latest Populus VI: Lab 36 (-), Con 32 (-3), LD 9 (+1), UKIP 13 (-), Others 10 (+1). Tables here: http://t.co/bOPVcX70pD
Anyone going to extract the English figures, my impression is that this poll is worse for Labour and slightly better for the Conservatives than the topline suggests. UKIP also are definitely treading water but re on more than 13% I think.0 -
No, that's what you think the fundamental purpose ought to be, no?Charles said:
Of course there isn't a job description. But I was looking at the fundamental purpose of parliament: to hold the executive to account and for MPs to represent the interests of their constituents.
I had a constituent yesterday tell me that the job of an MP is to represent the current views of constituents, whatever they may be and regardless of personal opinion - the example she gave was that if most voters in Broxtowe wanted to bring back flogging I should support that. I said that I thought my job if MP would be to consider constituency opinion and either follow it or explain why I wasn't following it, and voters could then decide if they accepted my views or not at the next election.
But she and I were merely saying what we think. I more or less agree with your view, though I think that "helping constituents with their problems" has become a de facto third part of the expected job, and applies in safe seats too. But others might disagree, and voters will vary their view over time. .
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The Green vote normally skews a lot more to the young than in this Populus poll, which is 13% - 5% youngest to oldest. ~20% - ~2% is a more typical split.CarlottaVance said:Scottish subsample watch - Lab & SNP both on 31.
In this poll at least Green skews "young" - so is NOTA splitting Green younger, UKIP older? We know who tends to vote......
You are absolutely right to point to the differential turnout - people with bets on the Green national vote share should take note...0 -
Agreed. The Green vote is also potentially dependent on a group who may well not be registered to vote. As far as I know none of the pollsters ask that question, but I could be wrong.OblitusSumMe said:
The Green vote normally skews a lot more to the young than in this Populus poll, which is 13% - 5% youngest to oldest. ~20% - ~2% is a more typical split.CarlottaVance said:Scottish subsample watch - Lab & SNP both on 31.
In this poll at least Green skews "young" - so is NOTA splitting Green younger, UKIP older? We know who tends to vote......
You are absolutely right to point to the differential turnout - people with bets on the Green national vote share should take note...0 -
To make more shows about Z list celebrities dancing the Foxtrot?Jonathan said:
Sounds more like an opportunity than a threat.TheWatcher said:
Look at the operations those 3 are building, and their budgets.Jonathan said:
In what way?TheWatcher said:
The BBC's heading for a Battle Royale with Amazon, Google and BT's broadcast operations.0 -
Didn't Edmund Burke sort this one out some time ago in his speech to the electors of Bristol?NickPalmer said:
No, that's what you think the fundamental purpose ought to be, no?Charles said:
Of course there isn't a job description. But I was looking at the fundamental purpose of parliament: to hold the executive to account and for MPs to represent the interests of their constituents.
I had a constituent yesterday tell me that the job of an MP is to represent the current views of constituents, whatever they may be and regardless of personal opinion - the example she gave was that if most voters in Broxtowe wanted to bring back flogging I should support that. I said that I thought my job if MP would be to consider constituency opinion and either follow it or explain why I wasn't following it, and voters could then decide if they accepted my views or not at the next election.
But she and I were merely saying what we think. I more or less agree with your view, though I think that "helping constituents with their problems" has become a de facto third part of the expected job, and applies in safe seats too. But others might disagree, and voters will vary their view over time. .
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What an utterly fatuous remark.audreyanne said:
Oh Isam. Really and truly, those are words I last heard at school. Come on, grow up.isam said:
Your opinion, not a factantifrank said:Capital punishment is wrong. We do not have the right to make that final judgement of our fellow men.
That is not changed by a temporary or even a permanent majority believing otherwise.0 -
Not really. Burke expressed his opinion, which is widely-shared, including broadly by me. It's by no means either the law or how it's always done in practice.rottenborough said:
Didn't Edmund Burke sort this one out some time ago in his speech to the electors of Bristol?
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If we bring back the death penalty would we have to leave the EU??isam said:
In your opinionSquareRoot said:
Firstly its not a shock poll, secondly it is well known that public opinion is and always has been in favour of the death penalty. So its not much of a story and one wonders why the Standard should have wasted its money on the poll unless it was to pander to the more unreasoned feelings in society. The death penalty will never return and that's a good thing.isam said:"Progressive" London coming to its senses over Islamic extremists
"Nearly half of Londoners back bringing back the death penalty for terrorist murders, a shock poll reveals today.
The YouGov survey for the Standard showed 49 per cent of adults in the capital support capital punishment for murder during terrorist attacks, such as the killing of Fusilier Lee Rigby.
Men are more hardline, with 55 per cent believing terrorist killers should be executed, compared to 42 per cent of women"
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/nearly-half-of-londoners-support-death-penalty-for-terrorist-murders-9994720.html
I don't see why the two blokes who cut off Lee Rigby's head shouldn't be killed
Just saying....................................0
